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Or do you want it lowered?

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- Fine.
- All right.

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00:00:30,239 --> 00:00:31,240
Earlier tonight...

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Let me first ask the TV.
Are you ready?

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All set?

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Let me hear your voice level,
so it's the same.

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- How's my voice level?
- That's fine.

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Terrific.

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Now, I remember exactly
the sentence I left off on.

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I remember how it started,
and I was cut off in the middle.

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You can fix it up.

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I don't want to go back, because
I know exactly what I wanted to say.

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- Go ahead!
- Okay.

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00:03:06,562 --> 00:03:10,732
Any military commander
who is honest with himself...

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...or with those he's
speaking to will admit...

19
00:03:13,861 --> 00:03:16,989
...that he has made mistakes
in the application of military power.

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00:03:18,031 --> 00:03:20,617
He's killed people, unnecessarily.

21
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His own troops or other troops.

22
00:03:23,245 --> 00:03:26,331
Through mistakes,
through errors of judgment.

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A hundred, or thousands, or tens of
thousands, maybe even 100,000.

24
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But he hasn't destroyed nations.
And the conventional wisdom is...

25
00:03:35,716 --> 00:03:38,844
...don't make the same mistake twice.
Learn from your mistakes.
26
00:03:38,886 --> 00:03:41,972
And we all do. Maybe we make
the same mistake three times...

27
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...but hopefully not four or five.

28
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There'll be no learning period
with nuclear weapons.

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00:03:46,685 --> 00:03:49,271
Make one mistake
and you're gonna destroy nations.

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00:03:58,655 --> 00:04:02,826
In my life, I've been part of wars.

31
00:04:05,954 --> 00:04:10,125
Three years in the U.S. Army
during World War II.

32
00:04:13,253 --> 00:04:16,381
Seven years as secretary of defense
during the Vietnam War.

33
00:04:20,552 --> 00:04:23,680
Thirteen years at the World Bank.
Across the world.

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At my age, 85...

35
00:04:27,851 --> 00:04:30,938
...I'm at an age
where I can look back...

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...and derive some conclusions
about my actions.

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My rule has been, "try to learn. "

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Try to understand what happened.
39
00:04:48,705 --> 00:04:51,834
Develop the lessons
and pass them on.

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00:05:08,475 --> 00:05:11,603
This is the secretary of defense of
the United States, Robert McNamara.

41
00:05:12,646 --> 00:05:15,774
His department absorbs 10 percent
of the income of this country...

42
00:05:15,816 --> 00:05:17,818
...and over half of every tax dollar.

43
00:05:17,860 --> 00:05:20,946
His job has been called
the toughest in Washington...

44
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...and he is the most controversial
figure that has ever held the job.

45
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,245
Walter Lippmann calls him both
the best secretary of defense...

46
00:05:28,287 --> 00:05:32,457
...and the first one to ever assert
civilian control over the military.

47
00:05:32,499 --> 00:05:36,628
His critics call him a "con man,"
"an IBM machine with legs"...

48
00:05:36,670 --> 00:05:38,714
..."an arrogant dictator. "

49
00:06:19,338 --> 00:06:22,424
Mr. Secretary, I've noticed
in several cabinet offices...

50
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...that little silver calendar thing there.
Can you explain that?
51
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Yes, this was given
by President Kennedy.

52
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...17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23...

53
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...24, 25, 26, 27, and finally 28,
were the dates...

54
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...when we literally look ed down
the gun barrel into nuclear war.

55
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Under a cloak of deceit...

56
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...the Soviet Union introduced
nuclear missiles...

57
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...into Cuba...

58
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...targeting 90 million Americans.

59
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The CIA said the warheads
had not been delivered yet.

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00:08:03,567 --> 00:08:06,695
They thought 20 were coming
on a ship named the Poltava.

61
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We mobilized 180,000 troops.

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The first day's air attack
was planned at 1080 sorties...

63
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...a huge air attack.
64
00:09:21,728 --> 00:09:23,814
Kennedy was trying
to keep us out of war.

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00:09:23,856 --> 00:09:25,899
I was trying to help him
keep us out of war.

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And General Curtis LeMay,
whom I served under...

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...as a matter of fact,
in World War II, was saying:

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" Let's go in.
Let's totally destroy Cuba. "

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On that critical Saturday,
October 27th...

70
00:10:01,351 --> 00:10:05,522
...we had two Khrushchev
messages in front of us.

71
00:10:06,565 --> 00:10:10,736
One had come in Friday night,
and it had been dictated...

72
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...by a man who was either drunk,
or under tremendous stress.

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Basically, he said, " If you'll
guarantee you won't invade Cuba...

74
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...we'll take the missiles out. "

75
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Then, before we could respond,
we had a second message...
76
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...that had been dictated
by a bunch of hard-liners.

77
00:10:29,463 --> 00:10:33,634
And it said, in effect, " If you attack...

78
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...we're prepared...

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...to confront you with
masses of military power. "

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00:10:39,890 --> 00:10:44,061
So, what to do? We had the
soft message and the hard message.

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At the elbow of President Kennedy
was Tommy Thompson...

82
00:10:50,359 --> 00:10:53,403
...former U.S. Ambassador to Moscow.

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He and Jane, his wife, had lived with
Khrushchev and his wife on occasion.

84
00:10:57,658 --> 00:11:00,702
Tommy Thompson said,
" Mr. President...

85
00:11:00,744 --> 00:11:04,915
...I urge you to respond
to the soft message. "

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00:11:05,958 --> 00:11:09,086
The president said to Tommy,
"We can't. That'll get us nowhere. "

87
00:11:10,128 --> 00:11:12,214
Tommy said,
" Mr. President, you're wrong. "

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Now, that takes a lot of guts.

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00:11:41,410 --> 00:11:45,539
In Thompson's mind was this thought:

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00:11:45,581 --> 00:11:48,709
" Khrushchev's gotten
himself in a hell of a fix. "

91
00:11:48,750 --> 00:11:50,711
He would then think to himself,
" My God...

92
00:11:50,752 --> 00:11:55,966
...if I can get out of this with a deal
that I can say to the Russian people:

93
00:11:56,008 --> 00:12:01,180
'Kennedy was going to destroy
Castro and I prevented it. "'

94
00:12:01,221 --> 00:12:04,308
Thompson, knowing Khrushchev
as he did, thought:

95
00:12:04,349 --> 00:12:05,350
" Khrushchev will accept that. "

96
00:12:06,393 --> 00:12:10,564
And Thompson was right.
That's what I call empathy.

97
00:12:11,607 --> 00:12:14,735
We must try to put ourselves
inside their skin...

98
00:12:14,776 --> 00:12:16,820
...and look at us
through their eyes...

99
00:12:16,862 --> 00:12:18,906
...just to understand
the thoughts...

100
00:12:19,948 --> 00:12:23,076
...that lie behind their decisions
and their actions.
101
00:12:29,333 --> 00:12:31,418
Khrushchev's advisors were saying:

102
00:12:32,461 --> 00:12:33,462
"There can be no deal...

103
00:12:33,504 --> 00:12:36,089
...unless you somewhat
reduce the pressure on us...

104
00:12:36,131 --> 00:12:38,717
...when you ask us to reduce
the pressure on you. "

105
00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,888
Also, we had attempted
to invade Cuba.

106
00:12:43,931 --> 00:12:47,059
Well, with the Bay of Pigs. That
undoubtedly influenced their thinking.

107
00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:49,102
I think that's correct.

108
00:12:49,144 --> 00:12:52,272
But more importantly, from a Cuban
and a Russian point of view...

109
00:12:53,315 --> 00:12:55,400
...they knew what, in a sense,
I really didn't know.

110
00:12:55,442 --> 00:12:57,444
We had attempted
to assassinate Castro...

111
00:12:57,486 --> 00:13:00,572
...under Eisenhower and Kennedy,
and later, under Johnson.

112
00:13:00,614 --> 00:13:05,827
And in addition to that, major voices
in the U.S. Were calling for invasion.

113
00:13:12,084 --> 00:13:15,170
In the first message,
Khrushchev said this:

114
00:13:18,298 --> 00:13:22,469
"We and you ought not pull
on the ends of a rope...

115
00:13:22,511 --> 00:13:25,597
...which you have tied
the knots of war.

116
00:13:28,725 --> 00:13:31,854
Because the more
the two of us pull...

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00:13:32,896 --> 00:13:36,024
...the tighter the knot will be tied.

118
00:13:39,152 --> 00:13:42,281
And then it will be necessary
to cut that knot...

119
00:13:43,323 --> 00:13:48,537
...and what that would mean
is not for me to explain to you.

120
00:13:49,580 --> 00:13:54,793
I have participated in two wars
and know that war ends...

121
00:13:54,835 --> 00:13:57,921
...when it has rolled through
cities and villages...

122
00:13:57,963 --> 00:14:01,049
...everywhere sowing
death and destruction.

123
00:14:03,135 --> 00:14:06,263
For such is the logic of war.

124
00:14:08,348 --> 00:14:11,476
If people do not display wisdom...

125
00:14:11,518 --> 00:14:14,563
...they will clash like blind moles...
126
00:14:14,605 --> 00:14:18,775
...and then mutual annihilation
will commence. "

127
00:14:48,972 --> 00:14:52,100
I want to say,
and this is very important:

128
00:14:52,142 --> 00:14:55,187
At the end, we lucked out.

129
00:14:55,229 --> 00:14:58,315
It was luck that prevented nuclear war.

130
00:14:58,357 --> 00:15:01,485
We came that close
to nuclear war at the end.

131
00:15:01,527 --> 00:15:05,155
Rational individuals.
Kennedy was rational.

132
00:15:05,197 --> 00:15:08,742
Khrushchev was rational.
Castro was rational.

133
00:15:08,784 --> 00:15:12,955
Rational individuals came that close
to total destruction of their societies.

134
00:15:12,996 --> 00:15:16,083
And that danger exists today.

135
00:15:32,766 --> 00:15:37,980
The major lesson
of the Cuban Missile Crisis is this:

136
00:15:39,022 --> 00:15:43,193
The indefinite combination
of human fallibility...

137
00:15:43,235 --> 00:15:47,364
...and nuclear weapons
will destroy nations.

138
00:15:51,535 --> 00:15:53,579
Is it right and proper...

139
00:15:53,620 --> 00:15:59,877
...that today there are 7500 strategic
offensive nuclear warheads...

140
00:15:59,918 --> 00:16:02,963
...of which 2500
are on 15-minute alert...

141
00:16:04,006 --> 00:16:08,177
...to be launched by the decision
of one human being?

142
00:16:24,860 --> 00:16:30,032
It wasn't until January, 1992...

143
00:16:30,073 --> 00:16:34,244
...in a meeting chaired by Castro
in Havana, Cuba...

144
00:16:34,286 --> 00:16:38,415
...that I learned
162 nuclear warheads...

145
00:16:39,458 --> 00:16:41,502
...including 90 tactical warheads...

146
00:16:41,543 --> 00:16:44,671
...were on the island at the time
in this critical moment of the crisis.

147
00:16:49,885 --> 00:16:51,929
I couldn't believe
what I was hearing...

148
00:16:51,970 --> 00:16:55,057
...and Castro got very angry with me,
because I said:

149
00:16:55,098 --> 00:16:58,227
" Mr. President, let's stop this meeting.
This is totally new to me.

150
00:16:58,268 --> 00:17:00,312
I'm not sure I got the translation right. "
151
00:17:01,355 --> 00:17:02,397
Mr. President,
I have three questions.

152
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,526
Number one, did you know
the nuclear warheads were there?

153
00:17:06,568 --> 00:17:07,569
Number two, if you did...

154
00:17:07,611 --> 00:17:10,197
...would you have recommended
to Khrushchev...

155
00:17:10,239 --> 00:17:12,783
...in the face of a U.S. Attack,
that he use them?

156
00:17:12,824 --> 00:17:15,953
Three, if he had used them,
what would've happened to Cuba?

157
00:17:15,994 --> 00:17:17,996
He said, "One,
I knew they were there.

158
00:17:18,038 --> 00:17:20,123
Two, I would not have
recommended to Khrushchev.

159
00:17:21,166 --> 00:17:23,210
I did recommend to Khrushchev
they be used.

160
00:17:23,252 --> 00:17:26,380
Three, what would happen to Cuba?
It would've been totally destroyed. "

161
00:17:30,509 --> 00:17:32,594
That's how close we were.

162
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,244
And he was willing to accept that?

163
00:17:36,279 --> 00:17:37,808
Yes... Oh, and he went on to say:

164
00:17:38,851 --> 00:17:41,937
" Mr. McNamara,
if you and President Kennedy...

165
00:17:41,979 --> 00:17:45,107
...had been in a similar situation,
that's what you would've done. "

166
00:17:45,148 --> 00:17:48,235
I said, " Mr. President, I hope to God
we would not have done it. "

167
00:17:49,278 --> 00:17:52,406
Pull the temple down on our heads?
My God!

168
00:17:56,577 --> 00:17:57,578
In a sense, we'd won.

169
00:17:57,619 --> 00:18:01,790
We got the missiles out without war.

170
00:18:03,876 --> 00:18:06,962
My deputy and I brought
the five chiefs over...

171
00:18:07,004 --> 00:18:10,132
...and we sat down with Kennedy.
And he said, "Gentlemen, we won.

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00:18:10,174 --> 00:18:13,260
I don't want you ever to say it,
but you know we won, I know we won. "

173
00:18:14,303 --> 00:18:17,389
And LeMay said,
"Won? Hell, we lost!

174
00:18:17,431 --> 00:18:20,559
We should go in
and wipe them out today. "

175
00:18:24,730 --> 00:18:26,773
LeMay believed that ultimately...
176
00:18:26,815 --> 00:18:28,859
...we'd confront these people
with nuclear weapons.

177
00:18:28,901 --> 00:18:33,071
And by God, we better do it
when we have greater superiority...

178
00:18:33,113 --> 00:18:35,157
...than we will have in the future.

179
00:18:48,712 --> 00:18:53,884
At the time, we had a 17-to-1 strategic
advantage in nuclear numbers.

180
00:18:53,926 --> 00:18:58,055
We'd done 10 times
as many tests as they had.

181
00:18:59,097 --> 00:19:03,227
We were certain we could
retain that advantage...

182
00:19:03,268 --> 00:19:06,396
...if we limited the tests.
The chiefs were all opposed.

183
00:19:07,439 --> 00:19:08,482
They said, "The Soviets will cheat. "

184
00:19:09,525 --> 00:19:11,610
Well, I said, " How will they cheat?"

185
00:19:11,652 --> 00:19:13,695
You won't believe this,
but they said:

186
00:19:14,738 --> 00:19:17,866
"They'll test them behind the moon. "

187
00:19:18,909 --> 00:19:20,994
I said, "You're out of your mind. "

188
00:19:22,037 --> 00:19:24,122
That's absurd.
189
00:19:26,208 --> 00:19:29,837
It's almost impossible
for our people today...

190
00:19:29,878 --> 00:19:33,507
...to put themselves back
into that period.

191
00:19:34,550 --> 00:19:36,593
In my seven years as secretary...

192
00:19:36,635 --> 00:19:39,763
...we came within a hairsbreadth
of war with the Soviet Union...

193
00:19:40,806 --> 00:19:41,849
...on three different occasions.

194
00:19:42,891 --> 00:19:44,935
Twenty-four hours a day,
365 days a year...

195
00:19:44,977 --> 00:19:49,147
...for seven years as secretary
of defense, I lived the Cold War.

196
00:19:51,233 --> 00:19:56,446
During the Kennedy administration,
they designed a 100-megaton bomb.

197
00:19:56,488 --> 00:20:00,617
It was tested in the atmosphere.
I remember this.

198
00:20:01,660 --> 00:20:04,788
Cold War? Hell, it was a hot war.

199
00:20:08,959 --> 00:20:14,131
I think the human race
needs to think more about killing...

200
00:20:14,173 --> 00:20:16,175
...about conflict.

201
00:20:16,216 --> 00:20:19,344
Is that what we want
in this 21st century?

202
00:20:50,626 --> 00:20:56,882
My earliest memory
is of a city exploding with joy.

203
00:20:56,924 --> 00:21:02,095
It was November 11, 1918.
I was 2 years old.

204
00:21:04,181 --> 00:21:08,352
You may not believe
that I have the memory, but I do.

205
00:21:08,393 --> 00:21:12,022
I remember the tops
of the streetcars...

206
00:21:12,064 --> 00:21:14,900
...being crowded
with human beings...

207
00:21:14,942 --> 00:21:17,736
...cheering and kissing
and screaming.

208
00:21:18,779 --> 00:21:20,864
End of World War I. We'd won.

209
00:21:22,950 --> 00:21:24,993
But also celebrating the belief...

210
00:21:25,035 --> 00:21:28,163
...of many Americans,
particularly Woodrow Wilson...

211
00:21:28,205 --> 00:21:30,249
...we'd fought a war
to end all wars.

212
00:21:33,377 --> 00:21:35,420
His dream was...

213
00:21:35,462 --> 00:21:39,591
...that the world could avoid
great wars in the future.
214
00:21:39,633 --> 00:21:43,762
Disputes among great nations
would be resolved.

215
00:21:47,933 --> 00:21:48,934
I also remember...

216
00:21:48,976 --> 00:21:52,104
...that I wasn't allowed to go outdoors
to play with my friends...

217
00:21:53,146 --> 00:21:55,190
...without wearing a mask.

218
00:21:55,232 --> 00:21:58,318
There was an ungodly flu epidemic.

219
00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:01,488
Large numbers of Americans
were dying, 600,000.

220
00:22:01,530 --> 00:22:04,616
And millions across the world.

221
00:22:17,129 --> 00:22:21,300
My class in the first grade was housed
in a shack, a wooden shack.

222
00:22:21,341 --> 00:22:23,343
But we had an absolutely
superb teacher.

223
00:22:23,385 --> 00:22:28,557
And this teacher gave a test
to the class every month...

224
00:22:28,599 --> 00:22:31,727
...and she re- seated the class
based on the results of that test.

225
00:22:32,769 --> 00:22:35,898
There were vertical rows, and she put
the person with the highest grade...

226
00:22:35,939 --> 00:22:37,941
...in the first seat
on the left-hand row.

227
00:22:37,983 --> 00:22:41,069
And I worked my tail off
to be in that first seat.

228
00:22:41,111 --> 00:22:44,239
Now, the majority of the classmates
were whites, Caucasians, so on.

229
00:22:44,281 --> 00:22:46,283
Wasps, if you will.

230
00:22:46,325 --> 00:22:52,581
But my competition for that first seat
were Chinese, Japanese and Jews.

231
00:22:52,623 --> 00:22:55,667
On Saturday and Sunday,
I played with my classmates.

232
00:22:55,709 --> 00:22:59,838
They went to their ethnic schools.
They learned their native language.

233
00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:00,923
They learned their culture, history.

234
00:23:01,924 --> 00:23:05,052
And they came back determined on
Monday to beat that damn Irishman.

235
00:23:05,093 --> 00:23:08,138
But they didn't do it very often.

236
00:23:08,180 --> 00:23:12,351
One congressman called you "Mr.
L- Have-All-The-Answers McNamara. "

237
00:23:12,392 --> 00:23:14,394
And there's been suggestion
from some congressmen...

238
00:23:14,436 --> 00:23:17,564
...that you come up there,
in spite of their experience...
239
00:23:17,606 --> 00:23:20,692
...prepared to give them
lessons in things.

240
00:23:20,734 --> 00:23:21,693
Is that your attitude?

241
00:23:21,735 --> 00:23:25,906
No. Perhaps they don't know
how much I don't know.

242
00:23:25,948 --> 00:23:27,950
And there is much indeed.

243
00:23:27,991 --> 00:23:30,035
I do make a serious effort...

244
00:23:30,077 --> 00:23:35,290
...to prepare myself properly for these
congressional discussions.

245
00:23:35,332 --> 00:23:38,418
I suppose I spend, perhaps,
100 or 120 hours...

246
00:23:39,461 --> 00:23:41,505
...in testifying before
Congress each year.

247
00:23:41,547 --> 00:23:45,717
And each hour of testimony requires
three to four hours of preparation.

248
00:23:45,759 --> 00:23:49,888
What about the contention that your
attitude is sometimes arrogant?

249
00:23:50,931 --> 00:23:53,016
Have you ever been wrong, sir?

250
00:23:53,058 --> 00:23:55,060
Oh, yes, indeed. My heavens.

251
00:23:55,102 --> 00:23:57,688
I'm not gonna tell you
when I've been wrong.

252
00:23:57,729 --> 00:24:00,315
If you don't know,
I'm not going to tell you.

253
00:24:00,357 --> 00:24:01,358
Oh, on countless occasions.

254
00:24:05,529 --> 00:24:09,658
I applied to Stanford University.
I very much wanted to go.

255
00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:12,828
But I couldn't afford it, so I lived
at home and I went to Berkeley.

256
00:24:12,870 --> 00:24:14,872
Fifty-two dollars a year tuition.

257
00:24:14,913 --> 00:24:18,041
I started Berkeley at the bottom
of the Depression.

258
00:24:18,083 --> 00:24:21,170
Twenty-five million males
were unemployed.

259
00:24:21,211 --> 00:24:22,171
Out of that class of 3500...

260
00:24:22,212 --> 00:24:26,341
...three elected to Phi Beta Kappa
at the end of sophomore year.

261
00:24:26,383 --> 00:24:30,512
Of those three, one became
a Rhodes Scholar, I went to Harvard...

262
00:24:30,554 --> 00:24:32,598
...the third went to work
for $65 a month...

263
00:24:32,639 --> 00:24:34,683
...and was damn happy
to have the job.
264
00:24:36,768 --> 00:24:39,354
The society was on the verge of...

265
00:24:39,396 --> 00:24:41,940
...I don't want to say revolution...

266
00:24:41,982 --> 00:24:46,153
...although, had Roosevelt not done
some of the things he did...

267
00:24:46,195 --> 00:24:49,239
...it could've become
far more violent.

268
00:24:49,281 --> 00:24:52,409
In any event, that was
what I was thrown into.

269
00:24:53,452 --> 00:24:55,537
I never heard of Plato and Aristotle...

270
00:24:56,580 --> 00:24:58,665
...before I became
a freshman at Berkeley.

271
00:24:58,707 --> 00:25:00,751
And I remember the professor,
Lowenberg...

272
00:25:00,792 --> 00:25:02,857
...the freshman
philosophy professor...

273
00:25:02,892 --> 00:25:04,922
I couldn't wait
to go to another class.

274
00:25:17,434 --> 00:25:20,562
I took more philosophy courses,
particularly one in logic...

275
00:25:20,604 --> 00:25:22,648
...and one in ethics.

276
00:25:24,733 --> 00:25:27,819
Stress on values...
277
00:25:27,861 --> 00:25:30,989
...something beyond one's self...

278
00:25:31,031 --> 00:25:34,117
...and a responsibility to society.

279
00:25:37,246 --> 00:25:39,289
After graduating
University of California...

280
00:25:39,331 --> 00:25:42,459
...I went to Harvard Graduate School
of Business for two years...

281
00:25:42,501 --> 00:25:44,545
...and then I went back
to San Francisco.

282
00:25:47,673 --> 00:25:51,802
I began to court this young lady that
I'd met when we were 17...

283
00:25:51,844 --> 00:25:53,887
...in our first week at Berkeley:

284
00:25:54,930 --> 00:25:57,015
Margaret Craig.

285
00:25:58,058 --> 00:26:02,229
And I was making some progress
after eight or nine months.

286
00:26:03,272 --> 00:26:05,315
I proposed and she accepted.

287
00:26:05,357 --> 00:26:10,571
She went with her aunt and her mother
on a trip across the country.

288
00:26:10,612 --> 00:26:14,741
She telegraphed me,
" Must order engraved invitations...

289
00:26:14,783 --> 00:26:16,827
...to include your middle name,
what is it?"

290
00:26:16,869 --> 00:26:18,871
I wired back,
" My middle name is Strange. "

291
00:26:18,912 --> 00:26:21,999
She said,
" I know it's strange, but what is it?"

292
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,211
Well, I mean, it is Strange.
It's Robert Strange McNamara.

293
00:26:33,510 --> 00:26:35,596
And it was a marriage
made in heaven.

294
00:26:38,724 --> 00:26:42,853
At the end of a year,
we had our first child.

295
00:26:42,895 --> 00:26:48,108
The delivery costs were $100,
and we paid that $10 a month.

296
00:26:49,151 --> 00:26:53,322
Those were some of the happiest
days of our lives.

297
00:26:54,364 --> 00:26:56,450
And then the war came.

298
00:27:05,834 --> 00:27:07,920
I'd been promoted
to assistant professor.

299
00:27:07,961 --> 00:27:10,005
I was the youngest at Harvard.

300
00:27:11,048 --> 00:27:15,177
And on a salary, by the way,
of $4000 a year.

301
00:27:19,348 --> 00:27:22,976
Harvard Business School's
market was drying up.
302
00:27:23,018 --> 00:27:26,605
The males were being drafted
or volunteering.

303
00:27:26,647 --> 00:27:30,275
So the dean, being farsighted,
brought back a government contract...

304
00:27:30,317 --> 00:27:33,946
...to establish an officer candidate
school for what was called...

305
00:27:33,987 --> 00:27:36,031
...Statistical Control
in the Air Force.

306
00:27:44,373 --> 00:27:47,501
We said, " Look, we're not gonna
take anybody you send up here.

307
00:27:47,543 --> 00:27:50,587
We're gonna select the people. "

308
00:27:50,629 --> 00:27:53,757
You have a punch card
for every human being...

309
00:27:53,799 --> 00:27:55,801
...brought into the Air Corps.

310
00:27:55,843 --> 00:28:00,013
We're gonna run those punch cards
through the IBM sorting machines...

311
00:28:00,055 --> 00:28:04,184
...and we're gonna sort on age,
education, accomplishment...

312
00:28:05,227 --> 00:28:07,312
...grades, et cetera.

313
00:28:09,398 --> 00:28:12,526
We were looking for the best
and the brightest.

314
00:28:12,568 --> 00:28:15,654
The best brains,
the greatest capacity to lead...

315
00:28:15,696 --> 00:28:17,739
...the best judgment.

316
00:28:29,209 --> 00:28:31,295
The U.S. Was just beginning to bomb.

317
00:28:33,380 --> 00:28:35,424
We were bombing by daylight.

318
00:28:35,465 --> 00:28:38,552
The loss rate was very, very high.

319
00:28:40,637 --> 00:28:43,765
So they commissioned a study.
And what did we find?

320
00:28:44,808 --> 00:28:46,894
We found the abort rate
was 20 percent.

321
00:28:47,936 --> 00:28:48,979
Twenty percent of the planes
leaving England...

322
00:28:50,022 --> 00:28:53,150
...to bomb Germany turned around
before they got to the target.

323
00:28:53,192 --> 00:28:56,278
That was a hell of a mess.
We lost 20 percent of our capability.

324
00:28:57,321 --> 00:28:59,364
I think it was called Form 1-A...

325
00:28:59,406 --> 00:29:01,492
...or something like that
was a mission report.

326
00:29:02,534 --> 00:29:04,620
And if you aborted a mission,
you had to write down why.
327
00:29:05,662 --> 00:29:07,748
So we get all these things
and we analyze them...

328
00:29:08,790 --> 00:29:09,833
...and we finally concluded:

329
00:29:10,876 --> 00:29:12,920
It was baloney.

330
00:29:12,961 --> 00:29:15,005
They were aborting out of fear.

331
00:29:15,047 --> 00:29:18,175
Because the loss rate
was four percent per sortie.

332
00:29:18,217 --> 00:29:20,219
The combat tour
was 25 sorties.

333
00:29:20,260 --> 00:29:22,304
It didn't mean 100 percent
would die...

334
00:29:22,346 --> 00:29:25,474
...but a lot of them were gonna be
killed. They knew that...

335
00:29:25,516 --> 00:29:28,602
...and they found reasons
to not go over the target.

336
00:29:29,645 --> 00:29:32,773
So we reported this.

337
00:29:37,986 --> 00:29:40,072
One of the commanders
was Curtis LeMay.

338
00:29:40,113 --> 00:29:44,201
Colonel in command of a B-24 group.

339
00:29:44,243 --> 00:29:48,413
He was the finest combat commander
of any service I came across in war.
340
00:29:48,455 --> 00:29:52,584
But he was extraordinarily belligerent,
many thought brutal.

341
00:29:52,626 --> 00:29:55,671
He got the report.
He issued an order.

342
00:29:55,712 --> 00:29:58,841
He said, " I will be in the
lead plane on every mission.

343
00:29:58,882 --> 00:30:01,927
Any plane that takes off
will go over the target...

344
00:30:01,969 --> 00:30:04,012
...or the crew will be
court-martialed. "

345
00:30:04,054 --> 00:30:06,098
The abort rate dropped overnight.

346
00:30:08,183 --> 00:30:10,269
Now, that's the kind
of a commander he was.

347
00:30:12,354 --> 00:30:16,525
Ladies and gentlemen,
the president of the United States.

348
00:30:17,568 --> 00:30:20,153
My friends, on this Christmas Eve...

349
00:30:20,195 --> 00:30:22,739
...there are over 10 million men...

350
00:30:22,781 --> 00:30:27,995
...in the Armed Forces of
the United States alone.

351
00:30:28,036 --> 00:30:33,167
One year ago,
1, 700, 000 were serving overseas.

352
00:30:33,208 --> 00:30:39,464
By next July first, that number
will rise to over five million.

353
00:30:40,507 --> 00:30:45,721
Plenty of bad news for the Japs
in the not-too-far-distant future.

354
00:31:05,532 --> 00:31:09,703
The U.S. Air Force had a new
airplane, named the B-29.

355
00:31:17,002 --> 00:31:23,217
The B-17 s and B-24s in Europe
bombed from 15, 16,000 feet.

356
00:31:25,302 --> 00:31:28,430
The problem was that they
were subject to antiaircraft fire...

357
00:31:28,472 --> 00:31:30,516
...and to fighter aircraft.

358
00:31:31,558 --> 00:31:34,686
To relieve that, this B-29
was being developed...

359
00:31:34,728 --> 00:31:36,730
...that bombed from high altitude...

360
00:31:36,772 --> 00:31:41,985
...and it was thought we could destroy
targets more efficiently and effectively.

361
00:31:49,284 --> 00:31:51,370
I was brought back
from the 8th Air Force...

362
00:31:52,412 --> 00:31:56,583
...and assigned to the first B-29s,
the 58th Bomb Wing.

363
00:31:57,626 --> 00:32:02,840
We had to fly those planes from
the bases in Kansas to India.

364
00:32:03,882 --> 00:32:08,053
Then we had to fly fuel
over the hump into China.

365
00:32:26,822 --> 00:32:32,035
The airfields were built
with Chinese labor.

366
00:32:34,121 --> 00:32:36,206
It was an insane operation.

367
00:32:40,377 --> 00:32:43,505
I can still remember them
hauling these huge rollers...

368
00:32:44,548 --> 00:32:47,634
...to crush the stone
and make them flat.

369
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,805
Somebody would slip,
the roller would roll over him...

370
00:32:51,847 --> 00:32:54,933
...everybody would
laugh and go on.

371
00:32:58,061 --> 00:33:00,105
We were supposed
to take these B-29s...

372
00:33:00,147 --> 00:33:03,275
There were no tanker aircraft there.
We were to fill them with fuel...

373
00:33:04,318 --> 00:33:07,446
...fly from India to Chengdu,
offload the fuel, fly back to India...

374
00:33:07,488 --> 00:33:11,575
...make enough missions
to build up fuel in Chengdu...

375
00:33:11,617 --> 00:33:16,830
...fly to Yawata, Japan, bomb
the steel mills and go back to India.

376
00:33:17,873 --> 00:33:22,044
We had so little training on this
problem of maximizing efficiency...

377
00:33:23,086 --> 00:33:26,215
...we actually found, to get
some of the B-29s back...

378
00:33:26,256 --> 00:33:29,343
...instead of offloading fuel,
they had to take it on.

379
00:33:32,471 --> 00:33:35,599
To make a long story short,
it wasn't worth a damn.

380
00:33:36,642 --> 00:33:39,770
And it was LeMay who really came to
that conclusion and led the chiefs...

381
00:33:39,811 --> 00:33:43,941
...to move the whole thing to the
Marianas, which devastated Japan.

382
00:34:27,693 --> 00:34:30,821
LeMay was focused
on only one thing:

383
00:34:31,864 --> 00:34:33,949
Target destruction.

384
00:34:36,034 --> 00:34:39,163
Most Air Force generals can say
how many planes they had...

385
00:34:39,204 --> 00:34:42,291
...how many tons of bombs they
dropped, or whatever it was.

386
00:34:42,332 --> 00:34:44,334
But he was the only person
that I knew...

387
00:34:44,376 --> 00:34:48,547
...in the senior command in the
Air Force who focused solely...

388
00:34:48,589 --> 00:34:52,718
...on the loss of his crews
per unit of target destruction.

389
00:34:56,889 --> 00:35:03,145
I was on the island of Guam,
in his command, in March of 1945.

390
00:35:04,188 --> 00:35:08,358
In that single night,
we burned to death...

391
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:12,529
...100,000 Japanese civilians
in Tokyo.

392
00:35:12,571 --> 00:35:14,615
Men, women and children.

393
00:35:17,743 --> 00:35:20,871
Were you aware this was
going to happen?

394
00:35:22,956 --> 00:35:23,999
Well, I was...

395
00:35:25,042 --> 00:35:30,255
...part of a mechanism that,
in a sense, recommended it.

396
00:35:44,811 --> 00:35:48,982
I analyzed bombing operations,
and how to make them more efficient.

397
00:35:49,024 --> 00:35:52,110
I.e., not more efficient in the sense of
killing more...

398
00:35:52,152 --> 00:35:56,281
...but more efficient
in weakening the adversary.

399
00:35:59,409 --> 00:36:03,539
I wrote one report analyzing...

400
00:36:03,580 --> 00:36:06,708
...the efficiency
of the B-29 operations.
401
00:36:07,751 --> 00:36:11,922
The B-29 could get above the fighter
aircraft and above the air defense...

402
00:36:11,964 --> 00:36:13,966
...so the loss rate
would be much less.

403
00:36:14,007 --> 00:36:18,178
The problem was, the accuracy
was also much less.

404
00:36:29,648 --> 00:36:32,776
Now, I don't want to suggest
that it was my report...

405
00:36:32,818 --> 00:36:35,904
...that led to...
I'll call it the firebombing.

406
00:36:39,032 --> 00:36:42,161
It isn't that I'm absolving myself
of blame for the firebombing.

407
00:36:42,202 --> 00:36:44,246
I don't want to suggest that it was I...

408
00:36:44,288 --> 00:36:46,331
...that put in LeMay's mind...

409
00:36:47,374 --> 00:36:49,459
...that his operations
were totally inefficient...

410
00:36:50,502 --> 00:36:54,673
...and had to be drastically changed.
But, anyhow, that's what he did.

411
00:36:54,715 --> 00:36:58,302
He took the B-29s
down to 5000 feet...

412
00:36:58,343 --> 00:37:01,930
...and he decided to bomb
with firebombs.
413
00:37:21,742 --> 00:37:23,785
I participated in the interrogation...

414
00:37:23,827 --> 00:37:27,998
...of the B-29 bomber crews
that came back that night.

415
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,169
A room full of crewmen
and intelligence interrogators.

416
00:37:32,211 --> 00:37:34,213
A captain got up,
a young captain said:

417
00:37:34,254 --> 00:37:37,341
"Goddamn it, I'd like to know who
the son of a bitch was...

418
00:37:37,382 --> 00:37:42,596
...that took this magnificent airplane,
designed to bomb from 23,000 feet...

419
00:37:42,638 --> 00:37:46,767
...and he took it down to 5000 feet,
and I lost my wingman.

420
00:37:46,808 --> 00:37:47,809
He was shot and killed. "

421
00:37:49,895 --> 00:37:53,023
LeMay spoke in monosyllables.

422
00:37:53,065 --> 00:37:55,067
I never heard him say...

423
00:37:55,108 --> 00:37:57,152
...more than two words in sequence.

424
00:37:57,194 --> 00:38:01,323
It was basically, "Yes," " No," "Yep"...

425
00:38:01,365 --> 00:38:05,536
..."That's all," or " Hell with it. "
That was all he said.
426
00:38:06,578 --> 00:38:09,706
And LeMay was totally intolerant
of criticism.

427
00:38:09,748 --> 00:38:12,835
He never engaged in discussion
with anybody.

428
00:38:13,877 --> 00:38:15,921
He stood up.

429
00:38:15,963 --> 00:38:18,048
"Why are we here?

430
00:38:18,090 --> 00:38:20,133
Why are we here?

431
00:38:21,134 --> 00:38:24,263
You lost your wingman.
It hurts me as much as...

432
00:38:25,305 --> 00:38:26,849
...it does you.

433
00:38:26,890 --> 00:38:28,433
I sent him there.

434
00:38:29,476 --> 00:38:31,562
And I've been there,
I know what it is.

435
00:38:31,603 --> 00:38:34,189
But you lost one wingman...

436
00:38:34,231 --> 00:38:36,775
...and we destroyed Tokyo. "

437
00:38:43,031 --> 00:38:46,160
Fifty square miles of Tokyo
were burned.

438
00:38:47,202 --> 00:38:49,288
Tokyo was a wooden city,
and when we dropped firebombs...

439
00:38:50,330 --> 00:38:52,416
...it just burned it.

440
00:39:39,338 --> 00:39:42,466
The choice of incendiary bombs...

441
00:39:42,501 --> 00:39:45,552
...where did that come from?

442
00:39:46,595 --> 00:39:48,639
I think the issue...

443
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,808
...is not so much incendiary bombs.
I think the issue is...

444
00:39:52,851 --> 00:39:55,979
...in order to win, should you kill
100,000 people in one night?

445
00:39:56,021 --> 00:39:56,980
By firebombing or any other way?

446
00:39:57,022 --> 00:40:00,150
LeMay's answer would be,
clearly, "Yes. "

447
00:40:00,192 --> 00:40:01,193
" McNamara, do you mean to say...

448
00:40:02,236 --> 00:40:03,278
...that instead of killing 100,000...

449
00:40:04,321 --> 00:40:07,449
...burning to death 100,000 Japanese
civilians in that one night...

450
00:40:07,491 --> 00:40:10,577
...we should have burned to death
a lesser number or none?

451
00:40:10,619 --> 00:40:13,705
And then had our soldiers
cross the beaches in Tokyo...

452
00:40:13,747 --> 00:40:15,749
...and been slaughtered
in tens of thousands?

453
00:40:15,791 --> 00:40:18,919
Is that what you're proposing?
Is that moral? Is that wise?"

454
00:40:18,961 --> 00:40:22,047
Why was it necessary to drop
the nuclear bomb...

455
00:40:22,089 --> 00:40:24,091
...if LeMay was burning up Japan?

456
00:40:24,132 --> 00:40:28,262
And he went on from Tokyo
to firebomb other cities.

457
00:40:28,303 --> 00:40:31,431
58 percent of Yokohama. Yokohama
is roughly the size of Cleveland.

458
00:40:32,474 --> 00:40:34,560
58 percent of Cleveland destroyed.

459
00:40:36,645 --> 00:40:40,816
Tokyo is roughly the size of New York.
51 percent of New York destroyed.

460
00:40:41,859 --> 00:40:44,987
99 percent of the equivalent
of Chattanooga, which was Toyama.

461
00:40:46,029 --> 00:40:50,200
40 percent of the equivalent
of Los Angeles, which was Nagoya.

462
00:40:52,286 --> 00:40:54,371
This was all done before...

463
00:40:55,414 --> 00:40:56,456
...the dropping
of the nuclear bomb.

464
00:40:57,499 --> 00:41:01,670
Which, by the way, was dropped
by LeMay's command.
465
00:41:03,755 --> 00:41:06,884
Proportionality should
be a guideline in war.

466
00:41:30,824 --> 00:41:33,911
Killing 50 to 90 percent...

467
00:41:33,952 --> 00:41:37,039
...of the people
in 67 Japanese cities...

468
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,209
...and then bombing them
with two nuclear bombs...

469
00:41:41,251 --> 00:41:44,379
...is not proportional,
in the minds of some people...

470
00:41:44,421 --> 00:41:47,508
...to the objectives
we were trying to achieve.

471
00:42:04,191 --> 00:42:07,319
I don't fault Truman
for dropping the nuclear bomb.

472
00:42:08,362 --> 00:42:10,447
The U.S. -Japanese War was
one of the most brutal wars...

473
00:42:11,490 --> 00:42:12,533
...in all of human history.

474
00:42:13,575 --> 00:42:16,703
Kamikaze pilots, suicide,
unbelievable.

475
00:42:17,746 --> 00:42:18,747
What one can criticize...

476
00:42:18,789 --> 00:42:21,875
...is that the human race
prior to that time and today...

477
00:42:21,917 --> 00:42:27,130
...has not really grappled with
what are, I'll call it "the rules of war. "

478
00:42:27,172 --> 00:42:31,301
Was there a rule then that said you
shouldn't bomb, shouldn't kill...

479
00:42:31,343 --> 00:42:34,388
...shouldn't burn to death 100,000
civilians in a night?

480
00:42:36,473 --> 00:42:38,517
LeMay said, " If we'd lost the war...

481
00:42:38,559 --> 00:42:41,687
...we'd all have been prosecuted
as war criminals. "

482
00:42:41,728 --> 00:42:43,772
And I think he's right.

483
00:42:45,858 --> 00:42:48,944
He, and I'd say I...

484
00:42:48,986 --> 00:42:51,071
...were behaving as war criminals.

485
00:42:55,242 --> 00:42:59,413
LeMay recognized
that what he was doing...

486
00:42:59,454 --> 00:43:02,541
...would be thought immoral...

487
00:43:02,583 --> 00:43:04,626
...if his side had lost.

488
00:43:06,712 --> 00:43:09,840
But what makes it immoral if you lose
and not immoral if you win?

489
00:45:36,778 --> 00:45:40,949
At some point, we have to approach
Vietnam, and I want to know...

490
00:45:40,991 --> 00:45:43,035
...how you can best
set that up for me.

491
00:45:43,076 --> 00:45:45,120
Yeah, well...

492
00:45:46,163 --> 00:45:50,334
...that's a hard, hard question.
I think...

493
00:45:52,419 --> 00:45:56,590
I think we have to approach it
in the context of the Cold War.

494
00:45:56,632 --> 00:45:59,218
But first I'll have to talk about Ford.

495
00:45:59,259 --> 00:46:01,803
I've got to go back
to the end of the war.

496
00:46:14,316 --> 00:46:17,402
I had a terrible headache...

497
00:46:17,444 --> 00:46:21,615
...so Marg drove me in
to the Air Force regional hospital.

498
00:46:21,657 --> 00:46:23,700
A week later, Marg came in...

499
00:46:24,743 --> 00:46:26,787
...many of the same symptoms.

500
00:46:26,829 --> 00:46:30,999
It's hard to believe, and I don't think
I've heard of another case...

501
00:46:31,041 --> 00:46:33,043
...where two individuals,
husband and wife...

502
00:46:33,085 --> 00:46:36,213
...came down, essentially,
at the same time with polio.
503
00:46:37,256 --> 00:46:41,426
We were both in the hospital
on V-J Day.

504
00:46:44,513 --> 00:46:45,514
A friend of mine said:

505
00:46:45,556 --> 00:46:48,642
"We're gonna find a corporation
in America that needs...

506
00:46:48,684 --> 00:46:51,812
...the advice and capabilities
of this extraordinary group...

507
00:46:51,854 --> 00:46:53,856
...I'm forming and you gotta be in it. "

508
00:46:53,897 --> 00:46:57,025
I said, "To hell with it.
I'm going back to Harvard.

509
00:46:58,068 --> 00:47:00,154
Marg and I wanna do that.
I'm gonna spend my life there. "

510
00:47:01,196 --> 00:47:04,324
He said, " Look, Bob,
you can't pay Marg's hospital bills.

511
00:47:04,366 --> 00:47:06,368
You're crazy as hell. "
He said, " By the way...

512
00:47:06,410 --> 00:47:10,539
...the company that most needs
our help in all the U.S. Is Ford. "

513
00:47:10,581 --> 00:47:13,709
I said, " How'd you learn that?"
" I read an article in Life magazine. "

514
00:47:15,794 --> 00:47:17,838
Of the top 1000 executives at Ford...

515
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,008
...I don't believe there were
10 college graduates...

516
00:47:22,050 --> 00:47:24,136
...and Henry Ford II needed help.

517
00:47:26,221 --> 00:47:28,307
They were gonna give us tests.

518
00:47:28,348 --> 00:47:30,350
Two full days of testing...

519
00:47:30,392 --> 00:47:34,563
...intelligence tests, achievement tests,
personality tests, you name it.

520
00:47:34,605 --> 00:47:38,734
This sounds absurd, but I remember
a question on one of the tests was:

521
00:47:38,775 --> 00:47:42,905
"Would you rather be a florist
or a coal miner?"

522
00:47:44,990 --> 00:47:47,075
I had been a florist.
I worked as a florist...

523
00:47:47,117 --> 00:47:49,161
...during some of my
Christmas vacations.

524
00:47:50,204 --> 00:47:54,374
I put down coal miner.
I think the reasons are obvious to you.

525
00:47:55,417 --> 00:47:58,545
This group of 10 people
had been trained...

526
00:47:58,587 --> 00:48:01,632
...in the officer candidate school
at Harvard.

527
00:48:01,673 --> 00:48:05,844
In some tests we had the highest
marks that had ever been scored.
528
00:48:05,886 --> 00:48:09,973
In other tests, we were in the upper
one percentile.

529
00:48:16,230 --> 00:48:19,358
From 1926 to 1946,
including the war years...

530
00:48:19,399 --> 00:48:22,486
...Ford Motor Company
just barely broke even.

531
00:48:23,529 --> 00:48:25,614
It was a God-awful mess.

532
00:48:28,742 --> 00:48:31,870
I thought we had a responsibility
to the stockholders...

533
00:48:32,913 --> 00:48:38,126
...and God knows you cannot believe
how bad the situation had been.

534
00:48:55,853 --> 00:48:57,938
They had no market research
organization. I set one up.

535
00:48:57,980 --> 00:49:00,023
Manager said,
"What do you want studied?"

536
00:49:01,066 --> 00:49:03,152
I said, " Find out who's
buying Volkswagens.

537
00:49:03,193 --> 00:49:05,195
Everybody says it's a no-good car.

538
00:49:05,237 --> 00:49:07,322
It was only selling about
20,000 a year...

539
00:49:08,365 --> 00:49:10,450
...but I want to know
what's gonna happen.
540
00:49:10,492 --> 00:49:12,536
Is it gonna stay the same,
go down, or go up?

541
00:49:12,578 --> 00:49:13,579
Find out who buys them. "

542
00:49:14,621 --> 00:49:16,665
He came back six months later,
he said:

543
00:49:16,707 --> 00:49:20,878
"Well, they're professors, and they're
doctors and they're lawyers...

544
00:49:20,919 --> 00:49:23,964
...and they're obviously people
who can afford more. "

545
00:49:24,006 --> 00:49:27,134
Well, that set me to thinking about
what we in the industry should do.

546
00:49:28,177 --> 00:49:30,220
Was there a market we were missing?

547
00:49:31,263 --> 00:49:35,434
At this time nobody believed
Americans wanted cheaper cars.

548
00:49:35,475 --> 00:49:38,562
They wanted
conspicuous consumption.

549
00:49:39,605 --> 00:49:42,691
Cadillac, with these huge,
ostentatious fins...

550
00:49:42,733 --> 00:49:45,861
...set the style for the industry
for 10 or 15 years.

551
00:49:47,946 --> 00:49:50,032
And that's what we were up against.

552
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,288
We introduced the Falcon
as a more economical car...

553
00:49:56,330 --> 00:50:00,459
...and it was a huge success
profit-wise.

554
00:50:04,630 --> 00:50:06,715
We accomplished a lot.

555
00:50:22,356 --> 00:50:25,484
I said, "What about accidents?
I hear a lot about accidents. "

556
00:50:25,526 --> 00:50:28,612
"Oh, yes, we'll get you
some data on that. "

557
00:50:32,783 --> 00:50:37,996
There were about 40,000 deaths
per year from automobile accidents...

558
00:50:38,038 --> 00:50:40,082
...and about a million,
or a million-two injuries.

559
00:50:41,124 --> 00:50:43,210
I said, "What causes it?"
" It's obvious.

560
00:50:43,252 --> 00:50:45,295
It's human error
and mechanical failure. "

561
00:50:46,338 --> 00:50:49,466
I said, " If it's mechanical,
we might be involved. Find out.

562
00:50:49,508 --> 00:50:52,553
If it's mechanical failure,
I want to stop it. "

563
00:50:52,594 --> 00:50:55,681
Well, he said, "There's really
very few statistics available. "

564
00:50:55,722 --> 00:50:58,767
I said, " Damn it, find out
what can we learn. "

565
00:50:58,809 --> 00:51:01,937
"The only place we can find
that knows anything about it...

566
00:51:01,979 --> 00:51:02,980
...is Cornell Aeronautical Labs. "

567
00:51:04,022 --> 00:51:06,066
They said,
"The major problem is packaging. "

568
00:51:06,108 --> 00:51:09,236
They said, "You buy eggs and you
know how eggs come in a carton?"

569
00:51:09,278 --> 00:51:11,280
I said, " I don't buy eggs.
My wife does it. "

570
00:51:11,321 --> 00:51:15,492
They said, "Well, you ask her,
when she puts that carton down...

571
00:51:15,534 --> 00:51:19,663
...on the drain board when she gets
home, do the eggs break?"

572
00:51:19,705 --> 00:51:21,707
I asked Marg and she said no.

573
00:51:21,748 --> 00:51:24,877
Cornell said, "That's because
they're packaged properly.

574
00:51:24,918 --> 00:51:26,962
Now, if we packaged people in cars
the same way...

575
00:51:28,005 --> 00:51:30,090
...we could reduce the breakage. "

576
00:51:39,474 --> 00:51:42,561
We lacked lab facilities,
so we dropped human skulls...
577
00:51:42,603 --> 00:51:47,816
...in different packages, down the
stairwells of the dormitories at Cornell.

578
00:51:49,902 --> 00:51:54,072
Well, that sounds absurd,
but that guy was absolutely right.

579
00:51:55,115 --> 00:51:58,243
It was packaging
which could make the difference.

580
00:52:07,628 --> 00:52:12,841
In a crash, the driver was often
impaled on the steering wheel.

581
00:52:13,884 --> 00:52:19,056
The passenger was often injured
because he'd hit the windshield...

582
00:52:19,097 --> 00:52:22,184
...or the header bar,
or the instrument panel.

583
00:52:24,269 --> 00:52:28,440
So in the 1956 model Ford
we introduced steering wheels...

584
00:52:28,482 --> 00:52:30,526
...that prevented being impaled.
We introduced...

585
00:52:31,568 --> 00:52:34,696
...padded instrument panels,
and we introduced seat belts.

586
00:52:36,782 --> 00:52:39,910
We estimated if there would be
100 percent use of the seat belts...

587
00:52:39,952 --> 00:52:43,038
...we could save 20-odd thousand
lives a year.

588
00:52:44,081 --> 00:52:46,166
Everybody was opposed to it.
589
00:52:53,465 --> 00:52:56,593
You couldn't get people
to use seat belts.

590
00:52:56,635 --> 00:52:59,721
But those who did saved their lives.

591
00:53:17,447 --> 00:53:19,533
Now, let me jump ahead.

592
00:53:27,875 --> 00:53:29,960
It's July, 1960.

593
00:53:32,045 --> 00:53:35,174
John Bugas, vice president,
industrial relations...

594
00:53:35,215 --> 00:53:38,260
...clearly had his eyes on
becoming president.

595
00:53:38,302 --> 00:53:43,473
I'm the group vice president in charge
of all of the car divisions.

596
00:53:43,515 --> 00:53:46,602
Henry was a night owl.
He always wanted to go out.

597
00:53:46,643 --> 00:53:47,644
You know, it's 2 a. m. Or something.

598
00:53:48,687 --> 00:53:51,815
He said, " Come up, have a nightcap. "
" I don't want one, I'm going to bed. "

599
00:53:51,857 --> 00:53:55,986
John said, " I'll come up, Henry. "
" I didn't ask you. I asked Bob. "

600
00:53:56,028 --> 00:53:59,114
He said, " Bob, come on up. "
So I finally went up.

601
00:53:59,156 --> 00:54:01,200
That's when he asked me
to be president.

602
00:54:04,328 --> 00:54:07,456
I was the first president in the history
of the company...

603
00:54:08,499 --> 00:54:11,627
...that had ever been president other
than a member of the Ford family.

604
00:54:12,669 --> 00:54:14,755
And after five weeks, I quit.

605
00:54:27,267 --> 00:54:28,268
The telephone rang...

606
00:54:28,310 --> 00:54:31,438
...a person comes on and says:
" I'm Robert Kennedy.

607
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,525
My brother, Jack Kennedy,
would like you...

608
00:54:34,566 --> 00:54:36,652
...to meet our brother- in-law,
Sergeant Shriver. "

609
00:54:37,694 --> 00:54:40,781
Four o'clock, Sarge comes in.
Never met him.

610
00:54:40,823 --> 00:54:44,952
And he said, " I've been authorized
by my brother- in-law...

611
00:54:44,993 --> 00:54:49,164
...Jack Kennedy, to offer you the
position of secretary of the treasury. "

612
00:54:49,206 --> 00:54:51,250
"You're crazy.
I know a little about finance...

613
00:54:51,291 --> 00:54:53,293
...but I'm not qualified
for that position. "

614
00:54:53,335 --> 00:54:56,463
"Anticipating you might say that,
the president-elect...

615
00:54:56,505 --> 00:54:59,591
...authorized me to offer you
the secretary of defense. "

616
00:54:59,633 --> 00:55:01,635
" I was in World War II for
three years...

617
00:55:01,677 --> 00:55:04,805
...but secretary of defense?
I'm not qualified for that. "

618
00:55:04,847 --> 00:55:06,807
He said, "Anticipating that...

619
00:55:06,849 --> 00:55:09,977
...would you do him the courtesy
of agreeing to meet with him?"

620
00:55:10,018 --> 00:55:13,063
So I go home. I meet with Marg.

621
00:55:13,105 --> 00:55:17,276
If I could appoint every senior official
in the department...

622
00:55:17,317 --> 00:55:19,903
...and if I was guaranteed
I wouldn't have to...

623
00:55:19,945 --> 00:55:22,447
...be part of that damn Washington
social world.

624
00:55:22,489 --> 00:55:26,660
She said, "Well, okay, why don't you
write a contract with the president...

625
00:55:26,702 --> 00:55:29,746
...and if he'll accept those
conditions, do it. "
626
00:55:29,788 --> 00:55:33,959
My total net worth at the time
was on the order of $800,000...

627
00:55:34,001 --> 00:55:37,629
...but I had huge unfulfilled
stock options worth millions.

628
00:55:37,671 --> 00:55:41,258
And I was one of the highest-paid
executives in the world.

629
00:55:41,300 --> 00:55:43,343
And the future was brilliant.

630
00:55:45,429 --> 00:55:47,472
We had called our children in.

631
00:55:47,514 --> 00:55:50,642
Their life would be totally changed.

632
00:55:51,685 --> 00:55:55,856
The salary of a cabinet secretary then
was $25,000 a year.

633
00:55:55,898 --> 00:55:57,900
So we explained to the children...

634
00:55:57,941 --> 00:56:01,069
...they'd be giving up a few...
They could care less.

635
00:56:01,111 --> 00:56:03,155
Marg could care less.

636
00:56:09,411 --> 00:56:11,455
It was snowing.

637
00:56:11,497 --> 00:56:16,710
The Secret Service took me
in the house by the back way.

638
00:56:16,752 --> 00:56:19,796
I can still see it. There's a loveseat...
639
00:56:19,838 --> 00:56:22,966
...two armchairs with a lamp table
in between.

640
00:56:23,008 --> 00:56:25,010
Jack Kennedy is sitting in one...

641
00:56:25,052 --> 00:56:27,137
...and Bobby Kennedy's sitting
in the other.

642
00:56:28,180 --> 00:56:32,309
" Mr. President, it's absurd.
I'm not qualified. "

643
00:56:33,352 --> 00:56:34,394
" Look, Bob... "

644
00:56:35,437 --> 00:56:38,565
He said, " I don't think there's any
school for presidents either.

645
00:56:41,693 --> 00:56:43,779
Let's announce it now.
I'll write the announcement. "

646
00:56:44,822 --> 00:56:47,908
So he wrote out the announcement,
we walk out the front door.

647
00:56:47,950 --> 00:56:52,120
All of these television cameras
and press, till hell wouldn't have it.

648
00:56:53,163 --> 00:56:54,206
That's how Marg learned
I had accepted.

649
00:56:55,249 --> 00:56:57,334
It was on television, live.

650
00:56:58,377 --> 00:57:01,505
All right, why don't we do some
pictures afterwards.

651
00:57:03,590 --> 00:57:05,634
I've asked Robert McNamara...

652
00:57:05,676 --> 00:57:09,805
...to assume the responsibilities
of secretary of defense.

653
00:57:09,847 --> 00:57:14,017
And I'm glad and happy to say that
he has accepted this responsibility.

654
00:57:14,059 --> 00:57:17,146
Mr. McNamara leaves the presidency
of the Ford company...

655
00:57:18,188 --> 00:57:20,274
...at great personal sacrifice.

656
00:57:21,316 --> 00:57:23,402
That's the way it began.

657
00:57:26,530 --> 00:57:29,116
You know, it was a traumatic period.

658
00:57:29,158 --> 00:57:31,702
My wife probably got ulcers from it...

659
00:57:31,743 --> 00:57:34,872
...may even ultimately have died from
the stress. My son got ulcers.

660
00:57:34,913 --> 00:57:36,957
It was very traumatic but...

661
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,128
...they were some of the best years
of our life...

662
00:57:41,170 --> 00:57:44,256
...and all members of my family
benefited from it.

663
00:57:44,298 --> 00:57:46,341
It was terrific.

664
00:57:57,769 --> 00:57:59,813
October 2nd.
665
00:57:59,855 --> 00:58:02,983
I had returned from Vietnam.

666
00:58:04,026 --> 00:58:08,197
At that time, we had 16,000
military advisors.

667
00:58:10,282 --> 00:58:14,453
I recommended to President Kennedy
and to the Security Council...

668
00:58:14,495 --> 00:58:17,581
...that we establish a plan
and an objective...

669
00:58:17,623 --> 00:58:20,709
...of removing all of them within
two years.

670
00:58:57,204 --> 00:59:01,375
Kennedy announced we were going to
pull out all our military advisors...

671
00:59:01,416 --> 00:59:05,546
...by the end of '65, going to take 1000
out at the end of '63, and we did.

672
00:59:07,631 --> 00:59:11,802
But there was a coup
in South Vietnam.

673
00:59:13,887 --> 00:59:15,973
Diem was overthrown...

674
00:59:16,974 --> 00:59:19,059
...and he and his brother were killed.

675
00:59:21,145 --> 00:59:23,230
I was present with the President...

676
00:59:24,273 --> 00:59:27,401
...when together we received
information of that coup.

677
00:59:27,442 --> 00:59:29,486
I've never seen him...

678
00:59:30,529 --> 00:59:33,657
...more upset.
He totally blanched.

679
00:59:34,700 --> 00:59:38,871
Kennedy and I had tremendous
problems with Diem, but my God...

680
00:59:38,912 --> 00:59:40,956
...he was the authority.
He was the head of state.

681
00:59:41,999 --> 00:59:45,085
And he was overthrown
by a military coup.

682
00:59:45,127 --> 00:59:48,255
And Kennedy knew and I knew,
that to some degree...

683
00:59:48,297 --> 00:59:51,383
...the U.S. Government was
responsible for that.

684
01:00:03,896 --> 01:00:08,025
I was in my office in the Pentagon...

685
01:00:08,066 --> 01:00:12,237
...when the telephone rang
and it was Bobby.

686
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:16,408
The President had been shot
in Dallas.

687
01:00:20,579 --> 01:00:23,707
Perhaps 45 minutes later,
Bobby called again...

688
01:00:23,749 --> 01:00:25,792
...and said the president
was dead.

689
01:00:27,878 --> 01:00:31,006
Jackie would like me
to come out to the hospital.

690
01:00:32,049 --> 01:00:35,177
We took the body to the White House
about whatever it was, 4 a. M...

691
01:00:35,219 --> 01:00:39,348
...and called the superintendent
of Arlington Cemetery.

692
01:00:39,389 --> 01:00:41,391
And he and I...

693
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:47,648
...walked over those grounds.

694
01:00:48,690 --> 01:00:53,904
They're hauntingly beautiful grounds.

695
01:00:53,946 --> 01:00:55,948
White crosses, row and row.

696
01:00:55,989 --> 01:01:00,160
And finally I thought I'd found
the exact spot...

697
01:01:00,202 --> 01:01:02,246
...the most beautiful spot
in the cemetery.

698
01:01:04,331 --> 01:01:05,374
I called Jackie at the White House...

699
01:01:06,416 --> 01:01:09,545
...and asked her to come out there.
She immediately accepted.

700
01:01:09,586 --> 01:01:11,630
And that's where the president
is buried today.

701
01:01:12,673 --> 01:01:17,886
A park service ranger came up to me
and said that he...

702
01:01:19,972 --> 01:01:22,057
He had...

703
01:01:24,143 --> 01:01:28,313
...escorted President Kennedy
on a tour of those grounds...

704
01:01:28,355 --> 01:01:29,898
...a few weeks before.

705
01:01:29,940 --> 01:01:31,441
And Kennedy said...

706
01:01:32,484 --> 01:01:35,612
...that was the most
beautiful spot in Washington.

707
01:01:35,654 --> 01:01:37,698
That's where he's buried.

708
01:01:49,168 --> 01:01:51,253
I will do my best.

709
01:01:52,296 --> 01:01:55,924
That is all I can do.

710
01:01:55,966 --> 01:01:59,595
I ask for your help...

711
01:01:59,636 --> 01:02:01,680
...and God's.

712
01:04:49,473 --> 01:04:51,475
Make no bones of this.

713
01:04:51,517 --> 01:04:54,645
Don't try to sweep this under the rug.

714
01:04:54,686 --> 01:04:58,816
We are at war in Vietnam.

715
01:05:02,986 --> 01:05:03,987
And yet the president...

716
01:05:04,029 --> 01:05:08,158
...and his secretary of defense
continues to mislead...

717
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:13,413
...and misinform the American people,
and enough of it's gone by.

718
01:05:38,438 --> 01:05:40,482
On August 2nd...

719
01:05:40,524 --> 01:05:43,652
...the destroyer Maddox reported it
was attacked...

720
01:05:43,694 --> 01:05:46,738
...by a North Vietnamese patrol boat.

721
01:05:46,780 --> 01:05:50,409
It was an act of aggression against us.
We were in international waters.

722
01:05:50,450 --> 01:05:54,079
I sent officials from the Defense
Department out and we recovered...

723
01:05:54,121 --> 01:05:57,207
...pieces of shells that were
clearly identified...

724
01:05:57,249 --> 01:05:59,293
...as North Vietnamese
from the Maddox's deck.

725
01:06:00,335 --> 01:06:02,421
So there was no question in my mind
that it had occurred.

726
01:06:02,462 --> 01:06:05,549
But, in any event, we didn't respond.

727
01:06:06,592 --> 01:06:08,635
And it was very difficult.

728
01:06:08,677 --> 01:06:10,721
It was difficult for the president.

729
01:06:10,762 --> 01:06:13,891
There were very, very senior people,
in uniform and out, who said:

730
01:06:13,932 --> 01:06:16,935
" My God, this president is... "

731
01:06:16,977 --> 01:06:20,105
They didn't use the word "coward,"
but in effect...

732
01:06:20,147 --> 01:06:23,233
..." He's not protecting
the national interest. "

733
01:06:34,703 --> 01:06:38,874
Two days later the Maddox and
the Turner Joy, two destroyers...

734
01:06:38,916 --> 01:06:40,959
...reported they were attacked.

735
01:06:50,344 --> 01:06:53,472
There were sonar soundings.
Torpedoes had been detected.

736
01:06:53,514 --> 01:06:56,600
Other indications of attack
from patrol boats.

737
01:06:57,643 --> 01:07:01,814
We spent 10 hours that day trying to
find out what the hell had happened.

738
01:07:02,856 --> 01:07:07,027
At one point the commander said,
"We're not certain of the attack. "

739
01:07:07,069 --> 01:07:09,071
Another point they said,
"We're positive. "

740
01:07:09,112 --> 01:07:11,198
Then finally, late in the day,
Admiral Sharp said:

741
01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:14,326
"Yes, we're certain it happened. "
742
01:07:15,369 --> 01:07:19,498
So I reported this to Johnson,
and as a result...

743
01:07:19,540 --> 01:07:24,753
...there were bombing attacks
on targets in North Vietnam.

744
01:07:38,267 --> 01:07:41,353
Johnson said,
"We may have to escalate.

745
01:07:41,395 --> 01:07:44,523
I'm not gonna do it without
Congressional authority. "

746
01:07:44,565 --> 01:07:47,609
And he put forward a resolution,
the language of which...

747
01:07:47,651 --> 01:07:52,865
...gave complete authority to
the president to take the nation to war:

748
01:07:52,906 --> 01:07:55,993
The Tonkin Gulf Resolution.

749
01:07:58,078 --> 01:08:02,249
Now, let me go back
to the August 4th attack.

750
01:09:08,941 --> 01:09:14,112
It was just confusion.
And events afterwards showed...

751
01:09:14,154 --> 01:09:18,325
...that our judgment that we'd been
attacked that day was wrong.

752
01:09:20,410 --> 01:09:21,453
It didn't happen.

753
01:09:25,624 --> 01:09:30,838
And the judgment that we'd been
attacked on August 2nd...
754
01:09:30,879 --> 01:09:33,966
...which we'd made, was right.
We had been.

755
01:09:34,007 --> 01:09:37,094
Although that was disputed
at the time.

756
01:09:38,136 --> 01:09:41,223
So we were right once
and wrong once.

757
01:09:41,265 --> 01:09:44,393
Ultimately, President Johnson
authorized bombing in response...

758
01:09:45,435 --> 01:09:47,479
...to what he thought
had been the second attack.

759
01:09:47,521 --> 01:09:51,692
It hadn't occurred, but that's irrelevant
to the point I'm making here.

760
01:09:51,733 --> 01:09:54,820
He authorized the attack on
the assumption it had occurred.

761
01:09:56,905 --> 01:10:00,033
And his belief that it was
a conscious decision...

762
01:10:01,076 --> 01:10:04,204
...by the North Vietnamese political
and military leaders...

763
01:10:04,246 --> 01:10:07,332
...to escalate the conflict...

764
01:10:08,375 --> 01:10:12,546
...and an indication they would
not stop short of winning.

765
01:10:16,717 --> 01:10:18,760
We were wrong.

766
01:10:18,802 --> 01:10:24,016
But we had in our minds
a mindset that led to that action.

767
01:10:25,058 --> 01:10:27,102
And it carried such heavy costs.

768
01:10:37,529 --> 01:10:42,743
We see incorrectly, or we see
only half of the story at times.

769
01:10:43,785 --> 01:10:47,956
- We see what we want to believe.
- You're absolutely right.

770
01:10:50,042 --> 01:10:52,127
Belief and seeing.

771
01:10:53,170 --> 01:10:55,255
They're both often wrong.

772
01:11:01,512 --> 01:11:06,725
We Americans know,
although others appear to forget...

773
01:11:06,767 --> 01:11:09,853
...the risk of spreading conflict.

774
01:11:10,896 --> 01:11:14,024
We still seek no wider war.

775
01:11:34,878 --> 01:11:36,922
We introduced " Rolling Thunder"...

776
01:11:36,964 --> 01:11:42,177
...which, over the years, became a
very, very heavy bombing program.

777
01:11:42,219 --> 01:11:45,305
Two to three times as many bombs
as were dropped...

778
01:11:45,347 --> 01:11:48,433
...on Western Europe during
all of World War II.

779
01:12:07,161 --> 01:12:10,247
This is not primarily
a military problem.

780
01:12:10,289 --> 01:12:15,502
It's a battle for the hearts and minds
of the people of South Vietnam.

781
01:12:16,545 --> 01:12:22,801
As a prerequisite, we must be able
to guarantee their physical security.

782
01:15:41,875 --> 01:15:45,003
It was announced today that total
American casualties in Vietnam...

783
01:15:45,045 --> 01:15:50,175
...now number 4877
including 748 killed.

784
01:15:50,217 --> 01:15:55,430
Secretary of Defense McNamara, on
each of his seven trips to Vietnam...

785
01:15:55,472 --> 01:15:58,559
...has found some positive aspect
of the course of the war.

786
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:01,645
The most vivid impression
I'm bringing back is...

787
01:16:02,688 --> 01:16:03,730
...that we've stopped losing the war.

788
01:16:04,773 --> 01:16:07,901
The North Vietnamese, we believe,
have nine regiments of their army...

789
01:16:08,944 --> 01:16:13,073
Some of the men had a little training
in a park in Kentucky before coming.

790
01:16:13,115 --> 01:16:17,286
But it didn't prepare them for thick et
of trees, spiked vines, thorn bushes...

791
01:16:17,327 --> 01:16:21,999
...almost perpendicular cliffs,
90-degree temperatures, insects...

792
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:26,628
This has changed from a nasty little
war to a nasty middle-sized war.

793
01:16:26,670 --> 01:16:31,884
The Vietnamese are still doing most
of the fighting and most of the dying...

794
01:16:32,926 --> 01:16:36,013
...but week after week,
American casualty figures go up.

795
01:16:36,054 --> 01:16:41,268
Now, America wins the wars that she
undertakes. Make no mistake about it.

796
01:16:42,311 --> 01:16:47,483
And we have declared war
on tyranny and aggression.

797
01:16:47,524 --> 01:16:51,695
If this little nation goes down the drain
and can't maintain independence...

798
01:16:51,737 --> 01:16:55,866
...ask yourself what's gonna happen
to all the other little nations.

799
01:17:36,490 --> 01:17:38,575
Let me go back one moment.

800
01:17:39,618 --> 01:17:43,747
In the Cuban Missile Crisis,
at the end...

801
01:17:43,789 --> 01:17:50,045
...I think we did put ourselves
in the skin of the Soviets.

802
01:17:51,088 --> 01:17:56,301
In the case of Vietnam, we didn't
know them well enough to empathize.

803
01:17:56,343 --> 01:17:59,429
And there was total misunderstanding
as a result.

804
01:18:00,472 --> 01:18:05,686
They believed we had simply replaced
the French as a colonial power...

805
01:18:05,727 --> 01:18:10,899
...and we were seeking to subject
South and North Vietnam...

806
01:18:10,941 --> 01:18:16,113
...to our colonial interests,
which was absolutely absurd.

807
01:18:16,155 --> 01:18:21,326
And we, we saw Vietnam as
an element of the Cold War.

808
01:18:21,368 --> 01:18:25,497
Not what they saw it as, a civil war.

809
01:18:36,967 --> 01:18:40,095
There aren't many examples...

810
01:18:41,138 --> 01:18:45,309
...in which you bring
two former enemies together...

811
01:18:46,351 --> 01:18:50,481
...at the highest levels,
and discuss what might have been.

812
01:18:52,566 --> 01:18:56,695
I formed the hypothesis
that each of us could have...

813
01:18:56,737 --> 01:19:00,908
...achieved our objectives
without the terrible loss of life.

814
01:19:01,950 --> 01:19:06,121
And I wanted to test that
by going to Vietnam.

815
01:19:08,207 --> 01:19:11,335
The former foreign minister
of Vietnam...

816
01:19:12,377 --> 01:19:16,548
...a wonderful man named Thach
said, "You're totally wrong.

817
01:19:17,591 --> 01:19:21,762
We were fighting for independence.
You were fighting to enslave us. "

818
01:19:23,847 --> 01:19:26,975
We almost came to blows.
That was noon on the first day.

819
01:19:29,061 --> 01:19:33,232
" Do you mean to say it was
not a tragedy for you...

820
01:19:33,273 --> 01:19:38,403
...when you lost 3,400,000
Vietnamese killed...

821
01:19:38,445 --> 01:19:42,616
...which on our population base is the
equivalent of 27 million Americans?

822
01:19:42,658 --> 01:19:43,659
What did you accomplish?

823
01:19:44,701 --> 01:19:47,830
You didn't get more than we were
willing to give at the start.

824
01:19:47,871 --> 01:19:50,958
You could've had the whole damn
thing: Independence, unification. "

825
01:19:53,043 --> 01:19:55,128
" Mr. McNamara, you must never
have read a history book.

826
01:19:56,171 --> 01:20:01,385
If you had, you'd know we weren't
pawns of the Chinese or the Russians.

827
01:20:01,426 --> 01:20:03,428
Didn't you know that?

828
01:20:03,470 --> 01:20:08,684
Don't you understand that we've been
fighting the Chinese for 1000 years?

829
01:20:08,725 --> 01:20:12,813
We were fighting for independence,
and we'd fight to the last man.

830
01:20:12,855 --> 01:20:13,814
We were determined to...

831
01:20:13,856 --> 01:20:18,026
...and no amount of bombing or U.S.
Pressure would've ever stopped us. "

832
01:20:35,752 --> 01:20:38,881
What makes us omniscient?

833
01:20:40,966 --> 01:20:43,051
Have we a record of omniscience?

834
01:20:48,265 --> 01:20:51,393
We are the strongest nation
in the world today.

835
01:20:52,436 --> 01:20:54,480
I do not believe we should ever...

836
01:20:54,521 --> 01:20:58,692
...apply that economic, political
or military power unilaterally.

837
01:21:00,777 --> 01:21:05,991
If we had followed that rule in Vietnam,
we wouldn't have been there.

838
01:21:10,162 --> 01:21:13,248
None of our allies supported us.

839
01:21:13,290 --> 01:21:16,418
Not Japan, not Germany,
not Britain or France.

840
01:21:20,589 --> 01:21:24,718
If we can't persuade nations
with comparable values...

841
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:29,973
...of the merit of our cause,
we'd better re- examine our reasoning.

842
01:21:38,273 --> 01:21:42,945
Americans suffered the heaviest
casualties of the war last week.

843
01:21:42,986 --> 01:21:47,658
543 killed in action. Another 1247
were wounded and hospitalized.

844
01:21:48,700 --> 01:21:52,871
The deaths raise the U.S. Total
in the war so far to 18, 239.

845
01:21:52,913 --> 01:21:57,042
South Vietnamese put their losses
for the week at 522 killed.

846
01:21:57,084 --> 01:21:59,086
Communist losses
were not reported.

847
01:21:59,127 --> 01:22:03,298
Contributing to those casualties has
been the Communist bombardment...

848
01:22:03,340 --> 01:22:05,342
...of the Marine outpost
at Khe Sanh.

849
01:22:05,384 --> 01:22:09,555
There, the North Vietnamese have
been tightening their ring around...

850
01:22:10,597 --> 01:22:12,683
The military expects
a full-scale assault.

851
01:22:39,793 --> 01:22:42,880
To what extent did you feel
that you were the author of stuff...

852
01:22:42,921 --> 01:22:48,135
...or that you were an instrument
of things outside of your control?

853
01:22:48,177 --> 01:22:51,221
Well, I don't think I felt either.

854
01:22:51,263 --> 01:22:56,477
I just felt that I was serving
at the request of a president...

855
01:22:56,518 --> 01:22:58,479
...who'd been elected
by the American people.

856
01:22:58,520 --> 01:23:03,692
And it was my responsibility
to try to help him...

857
01:23:03,734 --> 01:23:08,947
...to carry out the office as he believed
was in the interest of our people.

858
01:23:38,143 --> 01:23:44,399
What is morally appropriate
in a wartime environment?

859
01:23:49,613 --> 01:23:52,741
Let me give you an illustration.

860
01:23:58,997 --> 01:24:01,083
While I was secretary...

861
01:24:02,125 --> 01:24:06,296
...we used what's called
"Agent Orange" in Vietnam.

862
01:24:06,338 --> 01:24:10,467
A chemical that strips leaves
off of trees.

863
01:24:11,510 --> 01:24:16,723
After the war, it is claimed that
that was a toxic chemical...

864
01:24:16,765 --> 01:24:19,810
...and it killed many individuals...
865
01:24:19,852 --> 01:24:23,981
...soldiers and civilians
exposed to it.

866
01:24:25,023 --> 01:24:31,280
Were those who issued the approval
to use Agent Orange criminals?

867
01:24:31,321 --> 01:24:34,408
Were they committing a crime
against humanity?

868
01:24:36,493 --> 01:24:38,537
Let's look at the law.

869
01:24:38,579 --> 01:24:41,665
Now, what kind of law
do we have that says...

870
01:24:41,707 --> 01:24:45,878
...these chemicals are acceptable
in war and these chemicals are not.

871
01:24:45,919 --> 01:24:47,921
We don't have clear definitions
of that kind.

872
01:24:47,963 --> 01:24:54,219
I never in the world would have
authorized an illegal action.

873
01:24:55,262 --> 01:24:58,348
I'm not really sure I authorized
Agent Orange, I don't remember it.

874
01:24:58,390 --> 01:25:03,604
But it certainly occurred, the use
of it occurred while I was secretary.

875
01:25:22,372 --> 01:25:25,501
Norman Morrison was a Quaker.

876
01:25:26,543 --> 01:25:29,671
He was opposed to war,
the violence of war, the killing.
877
01:25:30,714 --> 01:25:36,970
He came to the Pentagon,
doused himself with gasoline.

878
01:25:39,056 --> 01:25:41,141
Burned himself to death
below my office.

879
01:25:45,270 --> 01:25:48,398
He held a child in his arms,
his daughter.

880
01:25:49,441 --> 01:25:53,070
Passers-by shouted, "Save the child!"
He threw the child...

881
01:25:53,111 --> 01:25:56,740
...out of his arms, and the child lived
and is alive today.

882
01:25:56,782 --> 01:26:00,869
His wife issued
a very moving statement:

883
01:26:00,911 --> 01:26:06,124
" Human beings must stop killing
other human beings. "

884
01:26:06,166 --> 01:26:08,210
And that's a belief that I shared.

885
01:26:09,253 --> 01:26:12,381
I shared it then and I believe it
even more strongly today.

886
01:26:13,423 --> 01:26:17,594
How much evil must we do
in order to do good?

887
01:26:18,637 --> 01:26:21,765
We have certain ideals,
certain responsibilities.

888
01:26:22,808 --> 01:26:29,064
Recognize that at times you will have
to engage in evil, but minimize it.
889
01:26:34,278 --> 01:26:38,448
I remember reading that
General Sherman, in the Civil War...

890
01:26:38,490 --> 01:26:42,619
...the mayor of Atlanta pleaded
with him to save the city.

891
01:26:42,661 --> 01:26:44,705
And Sherman essentially
said to the mayor...

892
01:26:45,747 --> 01:26:48,876
...just before he torched it
and burned it down:

893
01:26:48,917 --> 01:26:53,046
"War is cruel. War is cruelty. "

894
01:26:54,089 --> 01:26:56,133
That was the way LeMay felt.

895
01:26:56,175 --> 01:26:58,260
He was trying to save the country.

896
01:26:59,303 --> 01:27:02,389
He was trying to save our nation.

897
01:27:02,431 --> 01:27:08,645
And in the process, he was prepared
to do whatever killing was necessary.

898
01:27:11,773 --> 01:27:18,030
It's a very, very difficult position
for sensitive human beings to be in.

899
01:27:18,071 --> 01:27:21,158
Morrison was one of those.
I think I was.

900
01:27:28,457 --> 01:27:34,713
50,000 people came to Washington
to demonstrate against the war.

901
01:27:37,841 --> 01:27:40,969
About 20,000 of them marched
on the Pentagon.

902
01:27:46,183 --> 01:27:51,396
The Pentagon is a very, very difficult
building to defend.

903
01:27:51,438 --> 01:27:55,567
We placed troops carrying rifles
around it.

904
01:27:55,609 --> 01:27:58,695
U.S. Marshals in front of the soldiers.

905
01:28:00,781 --> 01:28:04,952
But I told the president,
not a rifle would be loaded...

906
01:28:04,993 --> 01:28:07,037
...without my personal permission.

907
01:28:07,079 --> 01:28:09,122
And I wasn't gonna grant it.

908
01:28:44,533 --> 01:28:49,746
What effect did all of this dissent
have on your thinking?

909
01:28:49,788 --> 01:28:52,875
I mean, Norman Morrison is '65.
This is '67.

910
01:28:52,916 --> 01:28:57,004
Well, it was a very tense period.

911
01:28:57,045 --> 01:29:01,216
Very tense period for my family,
which I don't want to discuss.

912
01:29:04,344 --> 01:29:08,515
How was your thinking changing
during this period?

913
01:29:09,558 --> 01:29:12,644
I don't think my thinking
was changing.

914
01:29:12,686 --> 01:29:17,900
We were in the Cold War.
And this was a Cold War...

915
01:29:18,942 --> 01:29:21,028
...activity.

916
01:30:09,993 --> 01:30:15,207
Some commentators have said the
war is turning into a kind of stalemate.

917
01:30:15,249 --> 01:30:18,293
No, no. I think on the contrary...

918
01:30:18,335 --> 01:30:20,420
...as General Westmoreland
has pointed out...

919
01:30:21,463 --> 01:30:24,591
...in recent weeks in Saigon,
the military operations...

920
01:30:25,634 --> 01:30:28,762
...the large-unit military operations
continue to...

921
01:30:28,804 --> 01:30:31,890
...show very substantial progress.

922
01:30:41,275 --> 01:30:45,445
One of the lessons I learned early on:
Never say never.

923
01:30:45,487 --> 01:30:47,531
Never, never, never.

924
01:30:48,574 --> 01:30:50,659
Never say never.

925
01:30:51,702 --> 01:30:53,745
And secondly...

926
01:30:53,787 --> 01:30:56,915
...never answer the question
that is asked of you.

927
01:30:57,958 --> 01:31:03,172
Answer the question that you wish
had been asked of you.

928
01:31:04,214 --> 01:31:07,342
And quite frankly, I follow that rule.

929
01:31:08,385 --> 01:31:10,471
It's a very good rule.

930
01:31:19,813 --> 01:31:26,069
When you talk about the responsibility
for something like the Vietnam War...

931
01:31:29,198 --> 01:31:30,240
...whose responsibility is it?

932
01:31:31,283 --> 01:31:32,326
It's the president's responsibility.

933
01:31:34,411 --> 01:31:36,455
I don't want to fail to recognize...

934
01:31:36,497 --> 01:31:40,626
...the tremendous contribution
I think Johnson made to the country.

935
01:31:40,667 --> 01:31:45,881
I don't want to put the responsibility
for Vietnam on his shoulders alone...

936
01:31:45,923 --> 01:31:48,967
...but I do... I am inclined to believe
that if Kennedy had lived...

937
01:31:49,009 --> 01:31:53,180
...he would've made a difference. We
wouldn't have had 500,000 men there.

938
01:31:58,393 --> 01:32:00,437
Two very telling photographs.

939
01:32:00,479 --> 01:32:03,607
One of them has Johnson like this:

940
01:32:04,650 --> 01:32:09,863
You can just see him thinking,
" My God, I'm in a hell of a mess.

941
01:32:09,905 --> 01:32:11,949
And this guy is trying to tell me
to do something...

942
01:32:12,991 --> 01:32:15,077
...that I know is wrong
and I'm not gonna do.

943
01:32:16,119 --> 01:32:18,205
But how the hell
am I gonna get out of this?"

944
01:32:19,248 --> 01:32:21,291
The other photograph,
you can see me saying:

945
01:32:21,333 --> 01:32:26,547
"Jesus Christ. I love this man,
I respect him, but he's totally wrong.

946
01:32:26,588 --> 01:32:28,632
What am I gonna do?"

947
01:32:29,675 --> 01:32:33,846
Johnson couldn't persuade me,
and I couldn't persuade him.

948
01:32:35,931 --> 01:32:39,059
I had this enormous respect
and affection, loyalty...

949
01:32:40,102 --> 01:32:42,146
...to both Kennedy and Johnson.

950
01:32:42,187 --> 01:32:47,317
But at the end, Johnson and I
found ourselves poles apart.

951
01:32:47,359 --> 01:32:50,487
And I said to a very close and dear
friend of mine, Kay Graham...

952
01:32:52,573 --> 01:32:57,786
" Even to this day, Kay, I don't know
whether I quit or was fired. "

953
01:32:57,828 --> 01:32:59,872
She said, "You're out of your mind.
You were fired. "

954
01:33:09,256 --> 01:33:13,427
November 1, 1967.

955
01:33:16,555 --> 01:33:19,141
I presented a memo to Johnson
that said:

956
01:33:19,183 --> 01:33:21,768
"The course we're on is totally wrong.

957
01:33:22,811 --> 01:33:24,897
We've gotta change it.

958
01:33:28,025 --> 01:33:31,153
Cut back at what we're doing
in Vietnam.

959
01:33:34,281 --> 01:33:37,409
We gotta reduce the casualties,"
and so on.

960
01:33:40,537 --> 01:33:43,665
It was an extraordinarily
controversial memo.

961
01:33:43,707 --> 01:33:46,793
And I took it to him.
I delivered it myself.

962
01:33:46,835 --> 01:33:48,837
" Mr. President, nobody has seen this.

963
01:33:48,879 --> 01:33:53,050
Not Dean Rusk, not the chairman
of the Joint Chiefs. Nobody. "

964
01:33:54,092 --> 01:33:58,263
" I know that it may contain
recommendations and statements...

965
01:33:58,305 --> 01:34:00,349
...that you do not agree with
or support. "

966
01:34:05,562 --> 01:34:07,648
I never heard from him.

967
01:34:13,862 --> 01:34:15,948
Something had to give.

968
01:34:22,204 --> 01:34:24,289
There was a rumor I was facing
a mental breakdown...

969
01:34:24,331 --> 01:34:27,417
...I was under such pressure
and stress.

970
01:34:30,546 --> 01:34:33,674
I don't think that was the case at all.

971
01:34:37,845 --> 01:34:40,973
But it was a really traumatic departure.

972
01:34:46,186 --> 01:34:48,272
That's the way it ended.

973
01:34:53,485 --> 01:34:55,571
Except for one thing.

974
01:34:57,656 --> 01:35:00,784
He awarded me
the Medal of Freedom...

975
01:35:01,827 --> 01:35:04,955
...in a very beautiful ceremony
at the White House.

976
01:35:04,997 --> 01:35:09,126
And he was very, very
warm in his comments.

977
01:35:09,168 --> 01:35:13,297
And I became so emotional,
I could not...

978
01:35:13,338 --> 01:35:15,382
...respond.

979
01:35:26,852 --> 01:35:28,937
Mr. President...

980
01:35:29,980 --> 01:35:33,066
...I cannot find words...

981
01:35:34,109 --> 01:35:37,237
...to express what lies
in my heart today.

982
01:35:40,365 --> 01:35:43,494
And I think I'd better respond
on another occasion.

983
01:35:54,963 --> 01:35:57,049
And had I responded,
I would have said:

984
01:35:58,091 --> 01:36:00,677
" I know what many of you
are thinking.

985
01:36:00,719 --> 01:36:03,263
You're thinking this man
is duplicitous.

986
01:36:03,305 --> 01:36:07,476
You're thinking that he has
held things close to his chest.

987
01:36:08,519 --> 01:36:10,562
You're thinking that...

988
01:36:10,604 --> 01:36:14,733
...he did not respond fully...

989
01:36:14,775 --> 01:36:17,903
...to the desires and wishes
of the American people.

990
01:36:17,945 --> 01:36:18,946
I wanna tell you you're wrong. "

991
01:36:19,988 --> 01:36:24,159
Of course he had
personal idiosyncrasies.

992
01:36:24,201 --> 01:36:26,203
No question about that.

993
01:36:26,245 --> 01:36:30,415
He didn't accept all the advice
he was given.

994
01:36:31,458 --> 01:36:37,714
On several occasions, his associates
advised him to be more forthcoming.

995
01:36:37,756 --> 01:36:39,800
He wasn't.

996
01:36:41,885 --> 01:36:45,514
People did not understand there were
recommendations and pressures...

997
01:36:45,556 --> 01:36:49,184
...that would carry the risk of war
with China and of nuclear war.

998
01:36:49,226 --> 01:36:52,312
And he was determined to prevent it.

999
01:36:56,441 --> 01:37:02,698
I'm arguing that he had a reason
in his mind for doing what he did.

1000
01:37:05,826 --> 01:37:08,954
And, of course,
shortly after I left...

1001
01:37:09,997 --> 01:37:14,168
...Johnson concluded
that he couldn't continue.

1002
01:37:22,509 --> 01:37:26,680
At this point, how many Americans
had been killed in Vietnam?

1003
01:37:27,723 --> 01:37:31,894
About 25,000. Less than half...
1004
01:37:32,936 --> 01:37:36,064
...of the number
ultimately killed, 58,000.

1005
01:38:38,585 --> 01:38:43,799
Historians don't really like
to deal with counterfactuals...

1006
01:38:43,841 --> 01:38:45,884
...with what might have been.

1007
01:38:52,141 --> 01:38:54,226
They want to talk about history.

1008
01:38:55,269 --> 01:38:58,397
" How the hell do you know,
McNamara, what might have been?

1009
01:38:59,439 --> 01:39:00,482
Who knows?"

1010
01:39:02,568 --> 01:39:04,653
Well, I know certain things.

1011
01:39:14,037 --> 01:39:16,123
What I'm doing is thinking it through
with hindsight.

1012
01:39:17,166 --> 01:39:19,251
But you don't have hindsight
available at the time.

1013
01:39:20,294 --> 01:39:23,380
I'm very proud
of my accomplishments.

1014
01:39:23,422 --> 01:39:28,635
And I'm very sorry that in the process
of accomplishment, I've made errors.

1015
01:39:55,704 --> 01:39:58,832
We all make mistakes.

1016
01:39:59,875 --> 01:40:01,960
We know we make mistakes.
1017
01:40:05,088 --> 01:40:08,217
I don't know any military commander
who is honest...

1018
01:40:08,258 --> 01:40:11,345
...who would say he has not
made a mistake.

1019
01:40:15,516 --> 01:40:18,644
There's a wonderful phrase:

1020
01:40:18,685 --> 01:40:20,729
"The fog of war. "

1021
01:40:22,815 --> 01:40:24,858
What "the fog of war" means is:

1022
01:40:24,900 --> 01:40:29,071
War is so complex it's beyond
the ability of the human mind...

1023
01:40:29,112 --> 01:40:32,199
...to comprehend
all the variables.

1024
01:40:33,242 --> 01:40:38,455
Our judgment, our understanding,
are not adequate.

1025
01:40:40,541 --> 01:40:43,669
And we kill people unnecessarily.

1026
01:40:47,840 --> 01:40:53,053
Wilson said,
"We won the war to end all wars. "

1027
01:41:02,437 --> 01:41:08,652
I'm not so naive or simplistic
to believe we can eliminate war.

1028
01:41:10,737 --> 01:41:13,866
We're not gonna change
human nature any time soon.

1029
01:41:24,293 --> 01:41:27,421
It isn't that we aren't rational.
We are rational.

1030
01:41:28,464 --> 01:41:30,549
But reason has limits.

1031
01:41:48,275 --> 01:41:53,489
There's a quote from T.S. Eliot
that I just love:

1032
01:41:54,531 --> 01:41:57,659
"We shall not cease from exploring...

1033
01:41:58,702 --> 01:42:03,916
...and at the end of our exploration,
we will return to where we started...

1034
01:42:04,958 --> 01:42:08,045
...and know the place
for the first time. "

1035
01:42:08,086 --> 01:42:11,215
Now that's, in a sense,
where I'm beginning to be.

1036
01:42:28,941 --> 01:42:31,985
After you left
the Johnson administration...

1037
01:42:32,027 --> 01:42:36,198
...why didn't you speak out
against the Vietnam War?

1038
01:42:39,326 --> 01:42:43,455
I'm not going to say any more
than I have.

1039
01:42:43,497 --> 01:42:46,625
These are the kinds of questions
that get me in trouble.

1040
01:42:47,668 --> 01:42:53,924
You don't know what I know about how
inflammatory my words can appear.

1041
01:42:58,095 --> 01:43:02,266
A lot of people
misunderstand the war...

1042
01:43:02,307 --> 01:43:04,351
...misunderstand me.

1043
01:43:06,436 --> 01:43:09,565
A lot of people think
I'm a son of a bitch.

1044
01:43:10,607 --> 01:43:13,735
Do you feel in any way
responsible for the war?

1045
01:43:13,777 --> 01:43:15,821
Do you feel guilty?

1046
01:43:16,864 --> 01:43:18,949
I don't want to go into
further discussion.

1047
01:43:18,991 --> 01:43:22,077
It just opens up more controversy.

1048
01:43:23,120 --> 01:43:25,205
I don't wanna add anything
to Vietnam.

1049
01:43:25,247 --> 01:43:27,249
It is so complex that anything I say...

1050
01:43:27,291 --> 01:43:31,462
...will require additions
and qualifications.

1051
01:43:35,632 --> 01:43:38,760
Is it the feeling that you're
damned if you do...

1052
01:43:38,802 --> 01:43:40,846
...and if you don't,
no matter what...?

1053
01:43:40,888 --> 01:43:42,931
Yeah, that's right.

1054
01:43:45,017 --> 01:43:49,188
And I would rather be
damned if I don't.

1055
01:43:49,605 --> 01:43:53,775
Subtitles by SDI Media Group

1056
01:43:54,109 --> 01:43:58,280
Synchro by Laukas

1057
01:43:58,322 --> 01:44:02,493
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1058
01:44:03,305 --> 01:44:09,604
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