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Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

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Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

by squidd » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:05 pm

myles wrote:Of course Harry, OOPS!! it is easy to forget that in reality it is presurised

I suppose you could do something like this:

As an estimate, the depth of liquid in the trap would need to be more than the combined total depth of
liquid held on all of the plates. And for convenience you would probably need to put a tap at the bottom of
the trap to drain that also.

Still it might be a possible alternative.

Hey Myles,

I like your idea better than cams, levers and seals.

The issue of being able to isolate any one plate can be easily addressed by the addition of one valve at
the junction of the J-trap and the column. Let's call it the bottom valve.

To deactivate say Plate #2, close the bottom valve, open Plate #2 valve and the one below it. And so
on.

Of course, whenever the bottom plate is to be deactivated, the bottom valve has to be opened. (It
would be the "one below").

That long drainpipe and trap could also be insulated. The valves could come off the column at 45
degrees to prevent pooling.

squidd
squidd

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Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

by punkin » Sun Jan 16, 2011 10:06 pm

Rednose wrote:Folks, I decided to be out of here for a while.

I have said what I have to report from proper experience but I don’t want to be involved every day in useless
rants.

If there are people that want to use simple perforated plates for batch distilling it will be so, if there are
folks that believe in that and buy a simple built in more than 1100 USD it will be so, I have tried to explain
what is behind of all that but can’t do anymore than that.

Have a good one all.

Joe

As you say Joe, to each his own, and as long as you are achieving you're goals then it's a success.

I can see there's room for all the stills under the sun, just thinking if high proof is the aim, i know how
to build em much easier.

Tell ya what though, if i was building a column like KS's it'd cost ya more than $1100 to buy it from me.

My 3" VM's don't come in too much cheaper than that, and there's only about 10 or 12 hours labour in
it.

It'd take me days to make something like that.

Identified Shit Stirrer, upgraded to sociopath.

To the fashionable nationalists

http://www.stilldragon.com.au for all your distilling needs in Australia and New Zealand

punkin

Posts: 11265
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:09 pm
 Location: Northern NSW Orstrailya
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Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

by Harry » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:09 pm

It's looking more & more like people don't understand the fundamentals of separating processes. This is
a huge field that takes a long time to get down pat. So It's impossible for me to sum it up in a couple of
sentences.

Having said that, I'll try to give you the basics in relation to tray columns and this hobby...

General design methods:

Bubble cap trays:

Bubble-cap trays are rarely used for new installations on account of their high cost and their high
pressure drop. In addition, difficulties arise in large columns because of the large hydraulic gradients
which are set up across the trays. Bubble cap trays are capable of dealing with very low liquid rates
and are therefore useful for operation at low reflux ratios.

Sieve trays:
With the sieve tray the vapour passes vertically through the holes into the liquid on the tray, whereas
with the bubble cap the vapour issues in an approximately horizontal direction from the slots. With
the sieve plate the vapour velocity through the perforations must be greater than a certain minimum
value in order to prevent the weeping of the liquid stream down through the holes.

Valve trays:
The valve tray, which may be regarded as intermediate between the bubble cap and the sieve tray,
offers advantages over both.
Advantages claimed for valve trays include:
(a) Operation at the same capacity and efficiency as sieve trays.
(b) A low pressure drop which is fairly constant over a large portion of the operating range.
(c) A high turndown ratio, that is it can be operated at a small fraction of design capacity.
(d) A relatively simple construction which leads to a cost of only 20 per cent higher than that of a
comparable sieve tray.
Now, we all know that the dephlegmator is the source of liquid (the reflux) provided by cascading
down to the lower trays.
The purpose of this liquid holdup on trays is to provide intimate contact between water-dominant
cooler (than vapor) fluid descending, and hotter (than reflux) ethanol-dominant vapor rising.
In so doing, the liquid is enriched in WATER the further down you go, and the vapor is enriched in
ETHANOL the higher up you go.
The intimate contact exchanges energy in the form of heat, progressively warming the tray liquid as
you go further down the column. Heat energy always travels from hotter substance to cooler
substance, in it's quest to maintain a constant temperature.
Thus BOTH mass transfer (the ethanol and the water) and heat transfer are the duties of a separating
column.

Now, why would you choose bubble cap design as the preferred method for beverages? Simply because
it can operate at MUCH LOWER reflux ratios than the other two alternative designs. 1 : 1 is common in
this design for beverages. This is way lower than either of the alternate designs, so more likely to allow
more flavinoids to pass over.
So what?, you say. Well, the more reflux you return, the more you run towards neutral product. We see
this in packed columns. The more neutral the product, the less flavinoids & congeners are carried over
into the product. We all have experienced that.

Now, because we don't have to force too much reflux, or force higher vapor volumes (which you must
do to prevent the weeping & dumping problems of the other designs), we are in a happy position of
being able to control both the coolant volume AND temperature of the dephlegmator, our overhead
condenser. So we can regulate the levels of purity, and flavours, in our end product to anything we
desire. The fact that we can engage or dis-engage trays whenever & wherever we please,
adds another dimension of fine control in manipulating various wash types to give up even the most
delicate of congeners. You can't do that with the alternative designs.

This is a very brief overview and I hope it helps you understand. But like all explanations, sometimes
more questions are raised than answers. So if you want much more then I suggest you invest in a course
in professional distillation as offerred by the various institutes around the world. They cost a bit, but
are cheaper in the long run than 'trial & error', particularly if you don't yet grasp the necessary
principles of this fine art.
.

Slainte!
regards Harry
http://distillers.tastylime.net/
Winning the hearts & minds; one post at a time.
(you will be assimilated. resistance is futile.)

Harry

Posts: 2428
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Paradise aka Cairns Qld Australia
Equipment type: 25 Lt 1500W elec. boiler, 2" x 40" packed column VM, x-flow O/head HX, crimp-path Liebig HX,
VM proportioning valve, all in copper.
Various experimental gear.

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Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

by Adverse Effects » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:13 pm

would this work? relitive to that myles and squidd is trying to do [EDIT] was makeing this post before
punken and harry posted
 untitled.jpg (24.1 KiB) Viewed 7058 times
Some people say its "FREE" but i say "there ant no free lunch" you get what you pay/work for
Help those that help them self first
Ponu still head
60mm X 2040mm VM-LM-POT still
 Adverse Effects

Posts: 966
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:35 am
Equipment type: .
25Lt old keg as a BOP
87Lt very old Keg as a BOP
226Lt SS pot as a BOP
prototype Ponu still head

60mmX2040mm VM-LM-POT still

5Mt of 12.5mm tube coiled in to a 600mm long encapsulated liebig

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Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

by punkin » Sun Jan 16, 2011 11:43 pm

Harry wrote:It's looking more & more like people don't understand the fundamentals of separating processes.
This is a huge field that takes a long time to get down pat. So It's impossible for me to sum it up in a couple
of sentences.

Having said that, I'll try to give you the basics in relation to tray columns and this hobby...

General design methods:

Bubble cap trays:

Bubble-cap trays are rarely used for new installations on account of their high cost and their high pressure
drop. In addition, difficulties arise in large columns because of the large hydraulic gradients which are set
up across the trays. Bubble cap trays are capable of dealing with very low liquid rates and are therefore
useful for operation at low reflux ratios.

Sieve trays:
With the sieve tray the vapour passes vertically through the holes into the liquid on the tray, whereas with
the bubble cap the vapour issues in an approximately horizontal direction from the slots. With
the sieve plate the vapour velocity through the perforations must be greater than a certain minimum value
in order to prevent the weeping of the liquid stream down through the holes.

Valve trays:
The valve tray, which may be regarded as intermediate between the bubble cap and the sieve tray, offers
advantages over both.
Advantages claimed for valve trays include:
(a) Operation at the same capacity and efficiency as sieve trays.
(b) A low pressure drop which is fairly constant over a large portion of the operating range.
(c) A high turndown ratio, that is it can be operated at a small fraction of design capacity.
(d) A relatively simple construction which leads to a cost of only 20 per cent higher than that of a
comparable sieve tray.

Now, we all know that the dephlegmator is the source of liquid (the reflux) provided by cascading down to
the lower trays.
The purpose of this liquid holdup on trays is to provide intimate contact between water-dominant cooler
(than vapor) fluid descending, and hotter (than reflux) ethanol-dominant vapor rising.
In so doing, the liquid is enriched in WATER the further down you go, and the vapor is enriched in ETHANOL
the higher up you go.
The intimate contact exchanges energy in the form of heat, progressively warming the tray liquid as you go
further down the column. Heat energy always travels from hotter substance to cooler substance, in it's quest
to maintain a constant temperature.
Thus BOTH mass transfer (the ethanol and the water) and heat transfer are the duties of a separating
column.

Now, why would you choose bubble cap design as the preferred method for beverages? Simply because it can
operate at MUCH LOWER reflux ratios than the other two alternative designs. 1 : 1 is common in this design
for beverages. This is way lower than either of the alternate designs, so more likely to allow more flavinoids
to pass over.
So what?, you say. Well, the more reflux you return, the more you run towards neutral product. We see this
in packed columns. The more neutral the product, the less flavinoids & congeners are carried over into the
product. We all have experienced that.

Now, because we don't have to force too much reflux, or force higher vapor volumes (which you must do to
prevent the weeping & dumping problems of the other designs), we are in a happy position of being able
to control both the coolant volume AND temperature of the dephlegmator, our overhead condenser. So
we can regulate the levels of purity, and flavours, in our end product to anything we desire. The fact that
we can engage or dis-engage trays whenever & wherever we please, adds another dimension of fine
control in manipulating various wash types to give up even the most delicate of congeners. You can't do that
with the alternative designs.

This is a very brief overview and I hope it helps you understand. But like all explanations, sometimes more
questions are raised than answers. So if you want much more then I suggest you invest in a course in
professional distillation as offerred by the various institutes around the world. They cost a bit, but are
cheaper in the long run than 'trial & error', particularly if you don't yet grasp the necessary principles of this
fine art.

Very much ties in with my understanding of the goals of the different processes, and quite clear.
Thanks again Harry.

So, as Joe has stated from the start, sieve trays are more likely to be used in say, a continous process
in the search for industrial quantities of neutral or at best high test grain stock for mixing back in
flavoured distilleries?

Identified Shit Stirrer, upgraded to sociopath.

To the fashionable nationalists

http://www.stilldragon.com.au for all your distilling needs in Australia and New Zealand

punkin

Posts: 11265
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:09 pm
Location: Northern NSW Orstrailya
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Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

by Harry » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:50 am

punkin wrote:Very much ties in with my understanding of the goals of the different processes, and quite
clear. Thanks again Harry.

So, as Joe has stated from the start, sieve trays are more likely to be used in say, a continous process in the
search for industrial quantities of neutral or at best high test grain stock for mixing back in flavoured
distilleries?

Correct, for larger trayed columns. But we'rre talking hobby/micro columns here. I'm pretty sure the
reason KS & others are getting what seems to be a flavour enhanced product is because of inefficiency.
I don't mean that to sound bad. What I mean is this...

Because the sieve tray hobby/micro columns must be run at a rate that holds the liquid up on the sieve
tray deck without 'dumping', the vapour speed will be above the ideal rate of 12-20"/sec. They will also
be running the dephlegmator at flow levels & temps that are not optimal, otherwise the sieve tray
wouldn't operate at all. And the sieve design can't allow plate dis-engagement control for fine
products.

All of this will cause impurities and congener 'entrainment' in the rising vapours, giving the appearance
of more flavour. It is more flavour but it is also more impurities which would be unacceptable in a
commercial anaylsis. Really they are probably best, utilized as a 'stripper' column. They'd be good for
that.

Fine for personal hobby drinking, but an inferior product just as dirty as the plastics that people all cry
about. I wish they were ballsy enough to get an analysis done on the product. Then they'd decide one
way or t'other about which design suits flavoured beverages and good operating techniques.
.

Slainte!
regards Harry
http://distillers.tastylime.net/
Winning the hearts & minds; one post at a time.
(you will be assimilated. resistance is futile.)

Harry

Posts: 2428
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Paradise aka Cairns Qld Australia
Equipment type: 25 Lt 1500W elec. boiler, 2" x 40" packed column VM, x-flow O/head HX, crimp-path Liebig HX,
VM proportioning valve, all in copper.
Various experimental gear.

T
o
p

Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

by punkin » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:18 am

Thanks again Harry.

We are blessed in the knowledge and understanding of processes here, with contributors like y'self and
Joe having knowledge of the commercial side of things and deep understanding of the processes behind
all the mechanics.

I'm positive i'll build one of these things at one stage, but i'll definately wait until it's all hashed out
design wise and just copy knowledge unashamedly, the same as i did with my VM's.

In the meantime i am gratefull to all you guys that are developing, proving concepts and proving the
negatives as well and burning copper so i don't have to

Sorry if that sounds selfish, but i'll help where i can

Identified Shit Stirrer, upgraded to sociopath.

To the fashionable nationalists

http://www.stilldragon.com.au for all your distilling needs in Australia and New Zealand

punkin

Posts: 11265
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:09 pm
Location: Northern NSW Orstrailya
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Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

by myles » Mon Jan 17, 2011 12:28 pm

Thanks to everyone for the wealth of information, and I think it is beginning to make sense. This is an
interesting topic.

I think these are right:

½” risers will work fine, as will ½” downcomers (on our small stills at any rate).

It is better to keep the downcomers and the tray disable lines independent from each other.

Downcomers can be J traps or end in a well. Provided the fluid depth in the well / trap is greater than
the fluid depth on the plate above, to prevent the vapour by-passing the bubble caps through the
downcomer.
Plate disables are better off working in steps, 1 plate at a time. They need to be big enough to enable
SIMOULTANEOUS vapour and liquid passage in opposite directions. 1” would probably do it. They
obviously work with internal plugs, and would probably work with external valves instead.

Smaller caps enable a greater slot density on the plates than big caps, and it looks like the caps cover
about 50% of the available area of the plate.

I can see one of these in my future - just not yet

myles4copper@gmail.com

myles

Posts: 2690
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:05 pm
Location: Remote in the Heather
Equipment type: Hybrid copper / stainless 35 litre pot still, with 2" reflux column option. Propylene glycol double
boiler. 160 litre HDPE fermenters and mash tun.
All copper pot still "Rosie" in development.
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Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

by loneswinger » Mon Jan 17, 2011 2:24 pm

That was a nice summary by both Harry and Myles. There is one more important point to consider
regarding the sieve plates and why they are better in a continuous rig than in a batch system, this was
taken from my research into the theory, not from any practical experience:

For an equivalent power supplied to the column, the pressure drop across a dry perforated plate will
be lower for an ethanol poor vapor than for an ethanol rich vapor, mostly due to the change in gas
density (the vapor speed is almost the same, and the change in viscosity doesn't seem to have as great
of an effect). It is, for the most part, this pressure drop that supports the liquid level on the perforated
plate.

In batch distillation, the vapor in the column decreases in alcohol concentration throughout the run.
This effect is more pronounced lower in the column on the first couple of plates. Therefore, if the
same power is supplied throughout the run, the pressure drop due to vapor flow across the plate will
decrease, and the plates ability to support a liquid layer will also decrease.
The above effect, combined with the decrease in refluxing liquid toward the end of the run, is why OD
and others bottom couple of perforated plates would 'dry up' toward the end of the run, rendering
them useless.

All I am trying to say is that you cannot design a perforated plate column that will work efficiently for
arbitrary alcohol percentages in the input vapor stream, i.e. batch distillation. Bubble plates obviously
do not have this problem since they do not require the vapor flow to support the liquid layer. Another
reason to only use perforated plates in continuous rigs.

There is another parameter to consider in any plate column and that is the distance between plates.
Since you don't want liquid droplets from a plate touching the one above it, the separation distance is
related to the vapor speed. I don't remember the formula off hand, maybe someone else can chime in.

-Loneswinger
We received our education in the cities of the nation, me and Paul

loneswinger

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Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

by Absinthe » Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:41 pm

Rednose wrote:Another “great” built from Mr. Copydog.

Why in the world he hangs a condenser of that weight on a tiny tube like that?

Even worth if they are compression fittings. I was talking about that issue with some members here by email
to avoid this oldog mistake some time ago.
It’s like tying my Grand Danes on a shoe string.

He says it can be run as 4 – 6 or 10 plate, great, than someone can explain me why he waste material,
weight, high, shipping cost etc. to have the 4 plate section in the same length than the 6 plated? For what is
the excess of space till the first plate if it's not needed in the 6 plate section?

He’s a good copper shiner but a worthless engineer and people pay for that maybe more than 1K.

i dont know if its been covered before but i think the large space at the bottom of the still is for the
vapor lock (u bend) in the return as i doubt it would fit down the neck of the keg

Absinthe

Posts: 96
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Equipment type: superheated steam boiler, steam injection still 50L, LM reflux, nat gas pot still 50L, HERMS, bad
liver
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Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

by Harry » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:09 pm

myles wrote:Thanks to everyone for the wealth of information, and I think it is beginning to make sense. This
is an interesting topic.

I think these are right:

½” risers will work fine, as will ½” downcomers (on our small stills at any rate).

Risers: Caps & risers have a size correlation. 1/2" risers (hereafter correctly termed 'standpipes') will be
problematic because it's hard to match that size to the correct size of cap. To explain this, you need to
know that the free area between the inner wall of the cap and the outer wall of the standpipe, and the
free area inside the standpipe, should be near equal, to maintain correct tray pressures & hydraulics.
The gap between them also needs to be large enough to pass any solids that 'may' be entrained in the
rising vapor (think 'puke', think SAFETY). Always design with safety uppermost in mind. More on this
later.

Downcomers: 1/2" can work, but I'd use dual downcomers (2 of 1/2" side-by-side) to ensure there's no
liquid holdup (cause of 'flooding'). Safety again. Of course you could use a larger diameter downcomer,
but you may or may not have the room for that. A 1" pipe takes up 4 times the room of a 1/2" pipe. It's
easier to fit pipes side-by-side.

myles wrote:It is better to keep the downcomers and the tray disable lines independent from each other.

Absolutely!

myles wrote:Downcomers can be J traps or end in a well. Provided the fluid depth in the well / trap is
greater than the fluid depth on the plate above, to prevent the vapour by-passing the bubble caps through
the downcomer.

Yes.

myles wrote:Plate disables are better off working in steps, 1 plate at a time.

Yes. When you 'disable' a tray, you are dumping the liquid bath to the next level below, NOT all the
way back to the boiler. Dumping all the way just upsets column equilibrium, AND is wastful of energy
meaning the ethanol you have purified several times so far has to be processed all over again from
scratch.

myles wrote:They need to be big enough to enable SIMOULTANEOUS vapour and liquid passage in opposite
directions. 1” would probably do it.

Not necessarily. Once the liquid bath is dumped, then ALL the standpipes & caps become vapor
conduits. There's no liquid to impede vapor flow.
myles wrote:They obviously work with internal plugs, and would probably work with external valves instead.

Or internal valves. (oops! I've given away another of my 'little design tricks').

myles wrote:Smaller caps enable a greater slot density on the plates than big caps, and it looks like the caps
cover about 50% of the available area of the plate.

Cap size is determined by standpipe Ø. They are a 'set'. The cross-sectional area (a 'slice') BETWEEN the
caps and the standpipes should be equal to or slightly greater than the cross-sectional area of the
standpipe. For 1/2" standpipes, that means a cap about 11/16" diameter, allowing for the wall
thickness (1/16") of the standpipe & cap.

Example:
Cap inner Diameter = 11/16 - (1/16 x 2) = 9/16"
Radius = 9/16 / 2 = 9/32"
Cap inner Area =9/32 x 9/32 x Pi = 0.2485 sq.in

Standpipe inner Diameter = 1/2 - (1/16 x 2) = 3/8"

Radius = 3/8 / 2 = 3/16"
Standpipe inner Area = 3/16 x 3/16 x Pi = 0.1104

..................Free Area between = 0.2485 - 0.1104 = 0.1381

So they are almost equal in free area for vapor pathway, but the gap between the walls is only 1/16"
wide. THIS IS TOO NARROW to be safe in the event of a solids problem. It will block up and cause all
sorts of dramas.

Now let's do a comparison with 1" standpipes & 1.3/8" caps as a set.

Cap inner Diameter = 1.3/8 - (1/16 x 2) = 1.1/4"

Radius = 1.1/4 / 2 = 5/8"
Cap inner Area = 5/8 x 5/8 x Pi = 1.2271 sq.in
Standpipe inner Diameter = 1 - (1/16 x 2) = 7/8"
Radius = 7/8 / 2 = 7/16"
Standpipe inner Area = 7/16 x 7/16 x Pi = 0.6013

..................Free Area between = 1.2271 - 0.6013 = 0.6258

This is almost equal also. But the free area between is over 4 TIMES that of the smaller standpip & cap
set. More importantly, the gap betweens walls has DOUBLED in size to 1/8". This will allow solids to
pass through & out under the cap tines into the tray. Blockages will be prevented and separation will
continue without interruption.
 cap+standpipe-dimensions.PNG (8.65 KiB) Viewed 6763 times

Now that you know how to do the standpipe & cap matching, you 'may' even decide to go a little larger
(within reason). Always remember, if you can't find exact sizes for caps, go to the next available size
UP, not down. Leave the standpipe as is.
myles wrote:.

I can see one of these in my future - just not yet

Shew Pics when you build, please. Or it didn't happen.

.

Slainte!
regards Harry
http://distillers.tastylime.net/

Winning the hearts & minds; one post at a time.

(you will be assimilated. resistance is futile.)

Harry

Posts: 2428
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Paradise aka Cairns Qld Australia
Equipment type: 25 Lt 1500W elec. boiler, 2" x 40" packed column VM, x-flow O/head HX, crimp-path Liebig HX,
VM proportioning valve, all in copper.
Various experimental gear.

T
o
p

Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

by Harry » Mon Jan 17, 2011 7:17 pm

loneswinger wrote:There is another parameter to consider in any plate column and that is the distance
between plates. Since you don't want liquid droplets from a plate touching the one above it, the separation
distance is related to the vapor speed. I don't remember the formula off hand, maybe someone else can
chime in.

-Loneswinger

I've seen tray spacing as low as 8 inches in large ( 24" Ø ) bubble columns. Because the bubble-cap
columns can be turned down considerably, and the vapor jets sideways into the tray liquid rather than
upwards like the sieve trays, the bubble-caps aren't as violent as the sieve tray columns. Therefore
there's much less chance of spraying and carrying low-prood liquids up to the tray above and
contaminating it (this is called 'entrainment').
.

Slainte!
regards Harry
http://distillers.tastylime.net/

Winning the hearts & minds; one post at a time.

(you will be assimilated. resistance is futile.)

Harry

Posts: 2428
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 9:11 pm
Location: Paradise aka Cairns Qld Australia
Equipment type: 25 Lt 1500W elec. boiler, 2" x 40" packed column VM, x-flow O/head HX, crimp-path Liebig HX,
VM proportioning valve, all in copper.
Various experimental gear.

T
o
p

Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

 by myles » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:23 pm

Thanks Harry, each bit learned takes us 1 step closer to the build.

Internal valves?

I wonder if you could use the pressure differential between the top of the still and the boiler to lift the
drain plugs? Probably not enough. Although!!!!!
myles4copper@gmail.com

myles

Posts: 2690
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:05 pm
Location: Remote in the Heather
Equipment type: Hybrid copper / stainless 35 litre pot still, with 2" reflux column option. Propylene glycol double
boiler. 160 litre HDPE fermenters and mash tun.
All copper pot still "Rosie" in development.
T
o
p

Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

by rick-16 » Mon Jan 17, 2011 8:28 pm

Harry wrote:
myles wrote:Thanks to everyone for the wealth of information, and I think it is beginning to make sense. This
is an interesting topic.

I think these are right:

½” risers will work fine, as will ½” downcomers (on our small stills at any rate).

Risers: Caps & risers have a size correlation. 1/2" risers (hereafter correctly termed 'standpipes') will be
problematic because it's hard to match that size to the correct size of cap. To explain this, you need to know
that the free area between the inner wall of the cap and the outer wall of the standpipe, and the free area
inside the standpipe, should be near equal, to maintain correct tray pressures & hydraulics. The gap
between them also needs to be large enough to pass any solids that 'may' be entrained in the rising vapor
(think 'puke', think SAFETY). Always design with safety uppermost in mind. More on this later.
Downcomers: 1/2" can work, but I'd use dual downcomers (2 of 1/2" side-by-side) to ensure there's no liquid
holdup (cause of 'flooding'). Safety again. Of course you could use a larger diameter downcomer, but you
may or may not have the room for that. A 1" pipe takes up 4 times the room of a 1/2" pipe. It's easier to fit
pipes side-by-side.

myles wrote:It is better to keep the downcomers and the tray disable lines independent from each other.
Hi Harry made this cap up today what ya think.http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318 ...
16/001.jpg http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u318 ... /007-1.jpgThanks.Rick.

Absolutely!

myles wrote:Downcomers can be J traps or end in a well. Provided the fluid depth in the well / trap is
greater than the fluid depth on the plate above, to prevent the vapour by-passing the bubble caps through
the downcomer.

Yes.

myles wrote:Plate disables are better off working in steps, 1 plate at a time.

Yes. When you 'disable' a tray, you are dumping the liquid bath to the next level below, NOT all the way
back to the boiler. Dumping all the way just upsets column equilibrium, AND is wastful of energy meaning
the ethanol you have purified several times so far has to be processed all over again from scratch.

myles wrote:They need to be big enough to enable SIMOULTANEOUS vapour and liquid passage in opposite
directions. 1” would probably do it.

Not necessarily. Once the liquid bath is dumped, then ALL the standpipes & caps become vapor conduits.
There's no liquid to impede vapor flow.
myles wrote:They obviously work with internal plugs, and would probably work with external valves instead.

Or internal valves. (oops! I've given away another of my 'little design tricks').

myles wrote:Smaller caps enable a greater slot density on the plates than big caps, and it looks like the caps
cover about 50% of the available area of the plate.

Cap size is determined by standpipe Ø. They are a 'set'. The cross-sectional area (a 'slice') BETWEEN the caps
and the standpipes should be equal to or slightly greater than the cross-sectional area of the standpipe. For
1/2" standpipes, that means a cap about 11/16" diameter, allowing for the wall thickness (1/16") of the
standpipe & cap.

Example:
Cap inner Diameter = 11/16 - (1/16 x 2) = 9/16"
Radius = 9/16 / 2 = 9/32"
Cap inner Area =9/32 x 9/32 x Pi = 0.2485 sq.in

Standpipe inner Diameter = 1/2 - (1/16 x 2) = 3/8"

Radius = 3/8 / 2 = 3/16"
Standpipe inner Area = 3/16 x 3/16 x Pi = 0.1104

..................Free Area between = 0.2485 - 0.1104 = 0.1381

So they are almost equal in free area for vapor pathway, but the gap between the walls is only 1/16" wide.
THIS IS TOO NARROW to be safe in the event of a solids problem. It will block up and cause all sorts of
dramas.

Now let's do a comparison with 1" standpipes & 1.3/8" caps as a set.

Cap inner Diameter = 1.3/8 - (1/16 x 2) = 1.1/4"

Radius = 1.1/4 / 2 = 5/8"
Cap inner Area = 5/8 x 5/8 x Pi = 1.2271 sq.in

Standpipe inner Diameter = 1 - (1/16 x 2) = 7/8"

Radius = 7/8 / 2 = 7/16"
Standpipe inner Area = 7/16 x 7/16 x Pi = 0.6013

..................Free Area between = 1.2271 - 0.6013 = 0.6258

This is almost equal also. But the free area between is over 4 TIMES that of the smaller standpip & cap set.
More importantly, the gap betweens walls has DOUBLED in size to 1/8". This will allow solids to pass through
& out under the cap tines into the tray. Blockages will be prevented and separation will continue without
interruption.

cap+standpipe-dimensions.PNG

Now that you know how to do the standpipe & cap matching, you 'may' even decide to go a little larger
(within reason). Always remember, if you can't find exact sizes for caps, go to the next available size UP, not
down. Leave the standpipe as is.

myles wrote:.

I can see one of these in my future - just not yet

Shew Pics when you build, please. Or it didn't happen.

rick-16

Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:27 am
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Re: Still with bubble plates - the show goes on

 by axle1960 » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:13 am

Harry wrote:
Risers: Caps & risers have a size correlation. 1/2" risers (hereafter correctly termed 'standpipes') will be
problematic because it's hard to match that size to the correct size of cap. To explain this, you need to know
that the free area between the inner wall of the cap and the outer wall of the standpipe, and the free area
inside the standpipe, should be near equal, to maintain correct tray pressures & hydraulics. The gap
between them also needs to be large enough to pass any solids that 'may' be entrained in the rising vapor
(think 'puke', think SAFETY). Always design with safety uppermost in mind. More on this later.

Harry,

Could we use a couple of scrubbers in the bottom of the column to act as a crude form of "puke" filter

in a hobby sized plate still?

Shouldn't make too much difference to the reflux ratio. IMHO
He who asks a question is a fool for five minutes; he who does not ask a question remains a fool forever.

axle1960

Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 2010 2:35 pm
Location: Gr8 White North/Western Part
Equipment type: Beer Keg Boiler on Propane, 2" Offset LM & 3" Boka (all stainless), more to be built.
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