Kirby - Marvel Appellate Document Record Volume 4

Case 11-3333, Document 75, 01/26/2012, 509514, Page1 of 317
CASE NO. 11-3333

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT
Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

MVL Rights, LLC,
Plaintiffs-Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
Walt Disney Company, Marvel Entertainment, Incorporated,
Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
v.
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan N. Kirby, Barbara J. Kirby,
Defendants-Counter-Claimants - Appellants.
APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME IV OF X
Appeal From The United States District Court for the Southern
District of New York,
Civil Case No. 10-141 (CM) (KF), Hon. Colleen McMahon
TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.

Marc Toberoff
mtoberoff@ipwla.com
22631 Pacific Coast Highway #348
Malibu, California 90265
Telephone: (310) 246-3333
Facsimile: (310) 246-3101
Attorneys for Defendants-Appellants,
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan M.
Kirby and Barbara J. Kirby
CASE NO. 11-3333

UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS
FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT
Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

MVL Rights, LLC,
Plaintiffs-Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
Walt Disney Company, Marvel Entertainment, Incorporated,
Counter-Defendants - Appellees,
v.
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan N. Kirby, Barbara J. Kirby,
Defendants-Counter-Claimants - Appellants.
APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME IV OF X
Appeal From The United States District Court for the Southern
District of New York,
Civil Case No. 10-141 (CM) (KF), Hon. Colleen McMahon

Marc Toberoff
mtoberoff@ipwla.com
Telephone: (310) 246-3333
Facsimile: (310) 246-3101
Lisa R. Kirby, Neal L. Kirby, Susan M.
Kirby and Barbara J. Kirby
TABLE OF CONTENTS
JA Docket Date Description Pages

Volume No.
IV 66-11 2/25/2011 Exhibit 41 – Interview with Jack Kirby by 794
and 66- Gary Groth
12
IV 66-13 2/25/2011 Exhibit 42 – Excerpt from Jack Kirby 826
Collector Fifty-Four
IV 66-14 2/25/2011 Exhibit 43 – Interview with Jack Kirby by 829
Mark Herbert
IV 66-15 2/25/2011 Exhibit 44 – July 12, 1966 Affidavit of 841
Jack Kirby
IV 66-16 2/25/2011 Exhibit 45 – Renewal Copyright 853
Registrations signed by Jack Kirby
IV 66-17 2/25/2011 Exhibit 46 – March 24, 1975 Agreement 874
between Jack Kirby and Marvel Comics
Group
IV 66-18 2/25/2011 Exhibit 47 – June 16, 1986 883
Acknowledgement of Copyright
Ownership by Jack Kirby
IV 66-19 2/25/2011 Exhibit 48 – June 16, 1987 Agreement 886
Group
IV 66-20 2/25/2011 Exhibit 49 – May 12, 1987 Letter from 898
Joseph Calamari to Jack Kirby
IV 66-21 2/25/2011 Exhibit 50 – October 3, 1986 Article 901
“Response: Jack Kirby replies to Marvel
Statement”
IV 66-22 2/25/2011 Exhibit 51 – November 19, 1997 Letter 904
from Stephen F. Rohde to Joseph
Calamari
IV 66-23 2/25/2011 Exhibit 52 – Interview with Stan Lee by 908
David Anthony Kraft
i

Volume No.
Clifford Meth and Daniel Dickholtz
IV 66-26 2/25/2011 Exhibit 55 – September 22, 2009 Article 931
“Who Created Spider-Man? [Kirby
Lawsuit]” by Al Nickerson
IV 66-27 2/25/2011 Exhibit 56 – Excerpt from “The JACK 934
F.A.Q.”
F.A.Q.”
IV 67 2/25/2011 Notice of Plaintiffs’ Motion to Exclude 945
the Testimony of Mark Evanier
IV 69 2/25/2011 Declaration of Sabrina Perelman re: 947
Plaintiffs’ Motion to Exclude the
Testimony of Mark Evanier
IV 69-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit 2 – Excerpts from the December 950
6, 2010 Deposition of Mark Evanier
IV 69-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit 3 – Excerpts from the November 995
IV 69-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 4 – Excerpts from November 16, 1008
1999 trial proceedings in In re Marvel
Entertainment Group Inc., et al., Case No.
97-638-RRM, in the U.S. District Court
for the District of Delaware
IV 69-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 5 – Excerpts from the October 12, 1014
1999 Deposition of Mark Evanier in In re
Marvel Entertainment Group
the Testimony of John Morrow
IV 72 2/25/2011 Declaration of David Fleischer re: 1019
Testimony of John Morrow
IV 72-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit B – Excerpts from the January 10, 1021
2011 Deposition of John Morrow
ii

Volume No.
IV 73 2/25/2011 Notice of Defendants’ Motion for 1077
Summary Judgment
IV 74 2/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Evanier re: 1080
Defendants’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
iii
INDEX TO APPENDICES
Joint Appendix

Volume No.
I N/A 1/9/2012 Docket for Civil Case 1:10-cv-00141- 1
CM-KNF as of January 9, 2012
I 1 1/8/2010 Complaint 19
I 9 3/9/2010 Notice of Defendants’ Motion to 36
Dismiss for Lack of Personal
Jurisdiction and Failure to Join
Necessary Parties
I 10 3/9/2010 Defendants’ Memorandum of Law re: 39
Motion to Dismiss
I 11 3/9/2010 Declaration of Lisa Kirby re: Motion to 67
Dismiss
I 12 3/9/2010 Declaration of Neal Kirby re: Motion to 71
Dismiss
I 13 3/9/2010 Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: Motion 75
to Dismiss
I 18 3/26/2010 Declaration of Alan Braverman re: 78
Motion to Dismiss
I 19 3/26/2010 Declaration of Eli Bard re: Motion to 80
Dismiss
I 20 3/26/2010 Declaration of James Quinn re: Motion 84
to Dismiss
I 23 4/6/2010 Reply Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 87
Motion to Dismiss
I 24 4/6/2010 Reply Declaration of Lisa Kirby re: 91
Motion to Dismiss
I 27 4/14/2010 Order Denying Defendants’ Motion to 95
Dismiss
I 30 4/28/2010 Answer to Complaint and Counterclaims 111
iv

Volume No.
I 43 10/14/2010 Order re: Deposition of Mark Evanier 140
I 50 12/6/2010 Answer to Counterclaims 142
I 60 2/25/2011 Notice of Plaintiffs’ Motion for 150
Summary Judgment
I 61 2/25/2011 Plaintiffs’ Rule 56.1 Statement re: 152
Plaintiffs’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
I 62 2/25/2011 Plaintiffs’ Memorandum re: Plaintiffs’ 186
Motion for Summary Judgment
I 65 2/25/2011 Declaration of Randi Singer re: 214
Judgment
II 65-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit 1 – Excerpts from the May 13, 226
2010 and December 8, 2010 Depositions
of Stan Lee
II 65-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit 2 – Excerpts from the October 327
21, 2010 Deposition of John Romita
II 65-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit 3 – Excerpts from the October 378
26 and October 27, 2010 Depositions of
Roy Thomas
II 65-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 4 – Excerpts from the January 7, 422
2011 Deposition of Lawrence Lieber
II 65-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 5 – Excerpts from the June 30, 448
2010 Deposition of Neal Kirby
II 65-6 2/25/2011 Exhibit 6 – Excerpts from the July 1, 497
2010 Deposition of Lisa Kirby
III 65-7 2/25/2011 Exhibit 7 – Excerpts from the October 515
25, 2010 Deposition of Susan Kirby
III 65-8 2/25/2011 Exhibit 8 – Excerpts from the November 531
III 65-9 2/25/2011 Exhibit 9 – Excerpts from the December 553
v

Volume No.
III 65-10 2/25/2011 Exhibit 10 – Excerpts from the January 581
10, 2011 Deposition of John Morrow
III 65-15 2/25/2011 Exhibit 15 – August 31, 2009 Press 599
Release from the Walt Disney Company
III 65-20 2/25/2011 Exhibit 17 – May 30, 1972 Agreement 603
between Jack Kirby and Magazine
Management Co., Inc.
III 65-21 2/25/2011 Exhibit 18 – 1981 Interview with Stan 609
Lee by Leonard Pitts, Jr.
III 65-28 2/25/2011 Exhibit 25 – November 1, 1998 629
Agreement between Stan Lee and
Marvel Enterprises, Inc.
III 65-29 2/25/2011 Exhibit 26 – August 6, 2007 Interview 640
with Lawrence Lieber by Daniel Best
III 65-30 2/25/2011 Exhibit 27 – January 9, 1963 Letter from 671
Stan Lee to Jerry Bails
III 65-31 2/25/2011 Exhibit 28 – Excerpt from Kirby: King 674
of Comics by Mark Evanier
III 65-32 2/25/2011 Exhibit 29 – “Stan Lee Made Up the Plot 677
… And I’d Write the Script” by Roy
Thomas
III 65-33 2/25/2011 Exhibit 30 – Two-page synopsis of The 692
Fantastic Four
III 66-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit 31 – Interview with Stan Lee by 695
Dan Hagen
III 66-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit 32 – Transcript of Interview with 715
Stan Lee by Eric Leguebe
III 66-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit 33 – Excerpts from Origins of 724
Marvel Comics by Stan Lee
III 66-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 34 – June 11, 2007 Affidavit of 758
Stan Lee
vi

Volume No.
III 66-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 35 – March 7, 2006 Agreement 774
between Stan Lee and Marvel
Entertainment, Inc.
III 66-6 2/25/2011 Exhibit 36 – May 19, 1978 Agreement 777
between John Romita and Marvel
Comics Group
III 66-7 2/25/2011 Exhibit 37 – June 1, 1978 Agreement 779
between Roy Thomas and Marvel
Comics Group
III 66-8 2/25/2011 Exhibit 38 – April 28, 2008 Letter from 781
Gene Colan to Marvel Comics
Enterprises
III 66-9 2/25/2011 Exhibit 39 – Excerpt from The Art of 784
Jack Kirby by Ray Wyman, Jr.
III 66-10 2/25/2011 Exhibit 40 – January 9, 1966 Article 787
“Super-Heroes With Super Problems” by
Nat Freedland
IV 66-11 2/25/2011 Exhibit 41 – Interview with Jack Kirby 794
and 66- by Gary Groth
12
IV 66-13 2/25/2011 Exhibit 42 – Excerpt from Jack Kirby 826
Collector Fifty-Four
IV 66-14 2/25/2011 Exhibit 43 – Interview with Jack Kirby 829
by Mark Herbert
IV 66-15 2/25/2011 Exhibit 44 – July 12, 1966 Affidavit of 841
Jack Kirby
IV 66-16 2/25/2011 Exhibit 45 – Renewal Copyright 853
Registrations signed by Jack Kirby
IV 66-17 2/25/2011 Exhibit 46 – March 24, 1975 Agreement 874
Group
vii

Volume No.
IV 66-18 2/25/2011 Exhibit 47 – June 16, 1986 883
Acknowledgement of Copyright
Ownership by Jack Kirby
IV 66-19 2/25/2011 Exhibit 48 – June 16, 1987 Agreement 886
Group
IV 66-20 2/25/2011 Exhibit 49 – May 12, 1987 Letter from 898
Joseph Calamari to Jack Kirby
IV 66-21 2/25/2011 Exhibit 50 – October 3, 1986 Article 901
“Response: Jack Kirby replies to Marvel
Statement”
IV 66-22 2/25/2011 Exhibit 51 – November 19, 1997 Letter 904
from Stephen F. Rohde to Joseph
Calamari
David Anthony Kraft
Clifford Meth and Daniel Dickholtz
IV 66-26 2/25/2011 Exhibit 55 – September 22, 2009 Article 931
“Who Created Spider-Man? [Kirby
Lawsuit]” by Al Nickerson
F.A.Q.”
F.A.Q.”
the Testimony of Mark Evanier
IV 69 2/25/2011 Declaration of Sabrina Perelman re: 947
IV 69-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit 2 – Excerpts from the December 950
viii

Volume No.
IV 69-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit 3 – Excerpts from the November 995
IV 69-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit 4 – Excerpts from November 16, 1008
1999 trial proceedings in In re Marvel
Entertainment Group Inc., et al., Case
No. 97-638-RRM, in the U.S. District
Court for the District of Delaware
IV 69-5 2/25/2011 Exhibit 5 – Excerpts from the October 1014
12, 1999 Deposition of Mark Evanier in
In re Marvel Entertainment Group
the Testimony of John Morrow
IV 72 2/25/2011 Declaration of David Fleischer re: 1019
IV 72-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit B – Excerpts from the January 1021
IV 73 2/25/2011 Notice of Defendants’ Motion for 1077
Summary Judgment
IV 74 2/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Evanier re: 1080
Judgment
V 74-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit A – November 4, 2010 Expert 1088
Report of Mark Evanier
V 74-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit B – Excerpts from Kirby: King 1116
of Comics by Mark Evanier
V 74-3 2/25/2011 Exhibit C – 1972 “Jack Kirby’s Gods” 1125
Portfolio
V 74-4 2/25/2011 Exhibit D – 1969-1971 Presentation 1132
Pieces by Jack Kirby
V 75 2/25/2011 Declaration of John Morrow re: 1135
Judgment
ix

Volume No.
V 75-1 2/25/2011 Exhibit A – November 4, 2010 Expert 1140
Report of John Morrow
V 75-2 2/25/2011 Exhibit B – Fantastic Four: The Lost 1161
through Adventure #1
75-4
V 78 2/25/2011 Defendants’ Rule 56.1 Statement re: 1229
Judgment
V 82 3/25/2011 Supplement Declaration of Randi Singer 1235
re: Defendants’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
V 82-1 3/25/2011 Exhibit 58 – Excerpts from the October 1238
Roy Thomas
V 82-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit 60 – Excerpts from the January 1249
7, 2011 Deposition of Lawrence Lieber
V 82-4 3/25/2011 Exhibit 61 – Excerpts from the June 30, 1252
V 82-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit 63 – Excerpts from the January 1259
V 83 3/25/2011 Opposition to Local Rule 56.1 Statement 1277
re: Defendants’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
V 85 3/25/2011 Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 1295
V 85-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit C – Excerpts from the January 1299
x

Volume No.
V 85-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit E – “Battling the Kirby Bug” by 1315
John Morrow
V 85-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit F – Cover of Challengers of the 1317
Unknown, No. 1
V 87 3/25/2011 Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 1319
V 87-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit C – Excerpt from Kirby: King of 1323
Comics by Mark Evanier
V 87-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit E – Excerpts from the December 1325
V 87-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit F – Excerpts from the October 1342
V 87-7 3/25/2011 Exhibit G – Excerpts from the October 1348
Roy Thomas
V 88 3/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Evanier re: 1356
V 89 3/25/2011 Declaration of John Morrow re: 1359
Judgment
V 90 3/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Evanier re: 1364
Judgment
V 91 3/25/2011 Declaration of Richard Ayers re: 1372
Judgment
V 92 3/25/2011 Declaration of Joe Sinnott re: Plaintiffs’ 1378
VI 93 3/25/2011 Declaration of Neal Adams re: Plaintiffs’ 1384
xi

Volume No.
VI 94 3/25/2011 Declaration of James Steranko re: 1390
Judgment
VI 95 3/25/2011 Declaration of Mark Toberoff (Part II) 1397
re: Motions for Summary Judgment
VI 95-1 3/25/2011 Exhibit A – September 16, 2009 1408
“Fantastic Four” Termination Notice
VI 95-2 3/25/2011 Exhibit B – Excerpts from the November 1424
VI 95-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit C – Excerpts from the December 1437
VI 95-4 3/25/2011 Exhibit D – Excerpts from the January 1477
VI 95-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit E – Excerpts from the January 7, 1513
VI 95-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit F – Excerpts from the October 1532
VI 95-7 3/25/2011 Exhibit G – Excerpts from the June 30, 1559
VI 95-8 3/25/2011 Exhibit H – Excerpts from the October 1602
VI 95-9 3/25/2011 Exhibit I – Excerpts from the May 13, 1611
2010 Deposition of Stan Lee
VI 95-10 3/25/2011 Exhibit J – Excerpts from the December 1621
8, 2010 Deposition of Stan Lee
VI 95-11 3/25/2011 Exhibit K – Excerpts from the October 1653
27, 2010 Deposition of Roy Thomas
VI 95-12 3/25/2011 Exhibit L – Plaintiffs’ December 20, 1660
2011 Response to Defendants’ First Set
of Requests for Admissions
VI 95-13 3/25/2011 Exhibit M – Attached as Exhibit 17 to 1668
the Declaration of Randi Singer
xii

Volume No.
VI 95-14 3/25/2011 Exhibit N – Jack Kirby Pencil Drawings 1675
of “Thor”
VII 95-15 3/25/2011 Exhibit O – Article “Kirby’s Gamma 1682
Rays: Alpha to Omega! – An Ultra-Rare
Find from 1962!”
VII 95-16 3/25/2011 Exhibit P – July 7, 2006 Agreement 1690
between Lisa Kirby and Marvel
Characters, Inc.
VII 95-17 3/25/2011 Exhibit Q – December 23, 2008 1692
Agreement between Lisa Kirby and
Marvel Characters, Inc.
VII 95-18 3/25/2011 Exhibit R – November 3, 2008 1704
Agreement between Lisa Kirby and
Marvel Characters, Inc.
VII 95-19 3/25/2011 Exhibit S – “Article “Fantastic Four 1713
#108: Jack’s Way”
VII 95-20 3/25/2011 Exhibit T – March 21, 1965 “Request for 1723
Payment” from Don Heck to Western
Printing and Lithographic
VII 95-21 3/25/2011 Exhibit U – Excerpts from “Five 1726
Fabulous Decades of the World’s
Greatest Comics: Marvel” by Les
Daniels
VII 95-22 3/25/2011 Exhibit V – Excerpts from “Alter Ego 1737
Presents: John Romita … and All that
Jazz!” by Roy Thomas and Jim Amash
VII 95-23 3/25/2011 Exhibit W – Excerpts from Jack Kirby 1746
Checklist Gold Edition
VII 95-24 3/25/2011 Exhibit X – Excerpts from The Art of 1763
Jack Kirby
VII 95-25 3/25/2011 Exhibit Y – Article “Kirby Gets 1776
Cracked”
xiii

Volume No.
VII 95-26 3/25/2011 Exhibit Z – Article “The Monster of 1781
Moraggia”
VII 95-27 3/25/2011 Exhibit AA – 1974-1975 Checks to 1791
Richard Ayer
VII 95-28 3/25/2011 Exhibit BB – 1986 Check to Jack Kirby 1817
VII 95-29 3/25/2011 Exhibit CC – Article “Would You Like 1820
to See My Etchings?”
VII 95-30 3/25/2011 Exhibit DD – Attached as Exhibits 36 1828
and 37 to the Declaration of Randi
Singer
VII 95-31 3/25/2011 Exhibit EE – Draft Agreement between 1831
Jack Kirby and Marvel Comics Groups
VII 97-1 3/25/2011 Exhibit FF – Artwork by Jack Kirby 1842
VII 97-2 3/25/2011 Exhibit GG – Excerpts from Article “A 1850
Failure to Communicate: Part Two”
VII 97-3 3/25/2011 Exhibit HH – Excerpts from Article 1860
“Jack Kirby”
VII 97-4 3/25/2011 Exhibit II – Excerpts from Article “Hour 1863
Twenty-Five”
VII 97-5 3/25/2011 Exhibit JJ – Excerpts from Article “Jack 1865
Kirby Interview”
VII 97-6 3/25/2011 Exhibit KK – Excerpts from Article 1869
“Wow-What an Interview”
VII 97-7 3/25/2011 Exhibit LL – November 12, 1980 1872
Declaration of Donald S. Engel and
Exhibits C, D, E, attached thereto from
Gerber v. Cadence Industries
Corporation, et al., Case No. 80 3840
DVK, in the U.S. District Court for the
Central District of California
VII 97-8 3/25/2011 Exhibit MM – Excerpts from “Stan Lee: 1899
Conversations”
xiv

Volume No.
VII 97-9 3/25/2011 Exhibit NN – Excerpts from Article 1904
“Jack Kirby A Celebration”
VII 97-10 3/25/2011 Exhibit OO –Article “Jack Kirby 1907
Interview”
VII 97-11 3/25/2011 Exhibit PP – Article “Kirby and Goliath: 1909
The Fight for Jack Kirby’s Marvel
Artwork”
VII 97-12 3/25/2011 Exhibit QQ – November 19, 1985 Letter 1917
from DC Comics to The Comics Journal
VII 97-13 3/25/2011 Exhibit RR – Handwritten Notes of Jack 1919
Kirby
VII 97-14 3/25/2011 Exhibit SS – Excerpt from Article “A 1924
Talk with Artist-Writer-Editor Jack
Kirby”
VII 97-15 3/25/2011 Exhibit TT – Article “Jack Kirby 1926
Interview”
VII 97-16 3/25/2011 Exhibit UU – Excerpts from “Superhero 1929
Women” by Stan Lee
VII 97-17 3/25/2011 Exhibit VV – Excerpts from “Interview 1933
with Stan Lee” from ign.com
VII 97-18 3/25/2011 Exhibit WW – Excerpts from “Son of 1937
Origins of Marvel Comics” by Stan Lee
VII 97-19 3/25/2011 Exhibit XX – Excerpts from “The 1942
Fantastic Four” by Stan Lee
VII 97-20 3/25/2011 Exhibit YY – Excerpts from “Alter Ego, 1946
No. 74”
VII 97-21 3/25/2011 Exhibit ZZ – Excerpts from Article 1950
“Jack Kirby – The Master of Comic
Book Art”
VII 97-22 3/25/2011 Exhibit AAA – Excerpts from Article 1953
“Stan Lee Interview – WBAI Radio NY
– August 12, 1986”
xv

Volume No.
VII 97-23 3/25/2011 Exhibit BBB – Excerpts from “The 1956
Incredible Hulk” by Stan Lee
VII 97-24 3/25/2011 Exhibit CCC – Excerpts from Article 1959
“The Goldberg Variations”
VII 97-25 3/25/2011 Exhibit DDD – Excerpts from Article 1962
“Stan Lee Interview – WBAI Radio NY
– March 3, 1967”
VII 97-26 3/25/2011 Exhibit EEE – Article “Jack Kirby: 1965
Prisoner of Gravity”
VIII 97-27 3/25/2011 Exhibit FFF – Article “Jack Kirby: A 1968
By-the-Month Chronology”
VIII 97-28 3/25/2011 Exhibit GGG – Article “The Highs and 2006
Lows of Henry Pym”
VIII 97-29 3/25/2011 Exhibit HHH – Article “They Were 2011
Aces”
VIII 97-30 3/25/2011 Exhibit III – December 24, 1980 2014
Declaration of Stephen Gerber and
Exhibit 3, attached thereto from Gerber
v. Cadence Industries Corporation, et al.
VIII 97-31 3/25/2011 Exhibit JJJ – Excerpts from “Nimmer on 2037
Copyright” (1963)
VIII 97-32 3/25/2011 Exhibit KKK – August 5, 1986 Letter 2049
from Joe Sacco to Paul Levine and
enclosure
VIII 98 3/25/2011 Opposition to Local Rule 56.1 Statement 2056
re: Plaintiffs’ Motion for Summary
Judgment
VIII 99 3/25/2011 Redacted Declaration of Gene Colan re: 2146
Judgment
IX 108 4/8/2011 Reply to Local Rule 56.1 Statement re: 2152
Judgment
xvi

Volume No.
IX 110 4/8/2011 Reply Declaration of Sabrina Perelman 2286
re: Plaintiffs’ Motions to Exclude the
Testimony of Mark Evanier and John
Morrow
IX 110-1 4/8/2011 Exhibit 1: Excerpts from November 16, 2288
1999 trial transcript in In re Marvel
Entertainment Group
IX 114 4/8/2011 Reply Declaration of Marc Toberoff re: 2292
Judgment
IX 114-1 4/8/2011 Exhibit 1: Excerpts from “Five 2296
Fabulous Decades of the World’s
Greatest Comics: Marvel” by Les
Daniels
IX 114-2 4/8/2011 Exhibit 2 – Excerpts from the December 2302
8, 2010 Deposition of Stan Lee
IX 114-3 4/8/2011 Exhibit 3 – Excerpts from the December 2313
IX 114-4 4/8/2011 Exhibit 4 – Excerpts from the October 2319
IX 114-5 4/8/2011 Exhibit 5 – Excerpts from the October 2325
Roy Thomas
IX 116 4/8/2011 Reply to Local Rule 56.1 Statement re: 2332
Judgment
IX 121 7/28/2011 Order Granting Plaintiffs’ Motion for 2367
Summary Judgment and Denying
Judgment
IX 123 8/8/2011 Judgment 2417
IX 124 8/15/2011 Notice of Appeal 2419
xvii

Volume No.
X N/A Transcript for the May 13, 2010 2421
Deposition of Stan Lee (requested by the
Court and submitted by Plaintiffs on
June 6, 2011)
Confidential Appendix
CA Docket Date Description Pages

Volume No.
I 103 3/25/2011 Declaration of Gene Colan re: Plaintiffs’ 1
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit A: March 22, 1975 Agreement 7
between Gene Colan and Marvel Comics
Group
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit B: May 30, 1978 Agreement 15
Group
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit C: April 28, 2008 Letter from 16
Gene Colan to Joe Quesada
I 103 3/25/2011 Exhibit D: May 31, 2008 Agreement 18
between Gene Colan and Marvel
Characters, Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Confidential Declaration of Marc 28
Toberoff re: Plaintiffs’ Motion for
Summary Judgment
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 2: July 26, 2002 Agreement 33
between Stan Lee and Marvel Enterprises,
Inc
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 4: March 20, 2006 Agreement 35
between Silver Creek Pictures, Inc. and
POW! Entertainment, Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 5: May 2, 2008 Agreement 39
between Silver Creek Pictures, Inc. and
POW! Entertainment, Inc.
xviii

Volume No.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 6: December 31, 2009 47
Agreement between Catalyst Investments,
LLC and POW! Entertainment, Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 7: December 18, 2009 59
Agreement between Silver Creek
Pictures, Inc. and POW! Entertainment,
Inc.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 8: June 11, 2007 Agreement 72
between Marvel Entertainment, Inc. and
Stan Lee.
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 9: Excerpts from the January 7, 77
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 10: March 22, 1975 Agreement 82
Group
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 11: September 1, 1974 91
Agreement between Roy Thomas and
Marvel Comics Group
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 12: August 27, 1976 Agreement 99
between Roy Thomas and Marvel Comics
Group
I 103 3/25/2010 Exhibit 13: February 24, 1978 Letter 110
between Cadence Publishing Division
and Roy Thomas, enclosing March 7,
1977 Agreement between Roy Thomas
and Marvel Comics Group
II N/A Transcript for the October 21, 2010 115
Deposition of John Romita (requested by
the Court and submitted by Plaintiffs on
July 12, 2011)
III N/A Transcript for the October 26, 2010 395
Deposition of Roy Thomas (requested by
July 12, 2011)
xix

Volume No.
III N/A Transcript for the October 27, 2010 601
Deposition of Roy Thomas (requested by
July 12, 2011)
IV N/A Transcript for the December 8, 2010 705
Deposition of Stan Lee (requested by the
Court and submitted by Plaintiffs on June
6, 2011)
Special Appendix
SA Docket Date Description Pages

Volume No.
I 123 8/8/2011 Judgment 1
I 121 7/28/2011 Order Granting Plaintiffs’ Motion for 3
Summary Judgment and Denying
Judgment
I 27 4/14/2010 Order Denying Defendants’ Motion to 53
Dismiss
xx
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EXHIBIT 41
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Page
INTERVIEW Ill
"I'VE NEVER DONE ANYTHING

HALFHEARTEDLY"
Conducted by
GARY GROTH
Conducted In three sessions over the sumf"l'ler ot 1989 at the~·

horTlf": In Thot..Js,eod O,.,ks, Calif.. this inteMew originally appeared In
~ Comk:s Jourrullf134 (Febn.l,yy 1990). Jack's wtfe, Roz, sat In on
the Interview's and helped recall key points In his career.
The s!ng)e: biggest matter of contention In the hlstOIY of
~e! has alwlJYS been the dlvtsfon of labor between Stan lee and
Jack Kirby. O:rigindlty, the offldal M.Mvelline (M seen in cOl.l"ltless
Interviews with Nld book introductions by lee) was that lee
concdved and wrote the rmte:rl&l while: Kirby (and other art.lst:s) co-
plotted and cTew It Lee M:s since conceded the magnitude ol
Kirby's contribution to a some'Wt'lat gruter dt=gree 1 but as cm1 be
seen in this Interview (conducted ~te In Kirby's career), an
embittered Kirby eventually came to dismiss all ot lee's contributions
to the WOfk as ltten~lly nonexlstent Some of Kirby's more extreme
stdtement:s (e.g., "I've never seen SUm Lee W1ite anything"') should be
reltd with a grain of salt; the creatlon ot Spkier·/'.-\M, whk:h Kirby
takes full credit for here, has also been disputed by Steve Dftko Wl
one of his extremely rare publk statements. There Is no doubt tt"lot
Kirby's contributionto the iJ.aNd comics he worked on was
enormous; lee's contribution Is a matter for endless speculation, but
most observers and hlstorl&n! conslder k1rby's ddtms here to be
excessive.
-~~"1'}75.
CONFIDENTIAL MARVEL0017206
JA795
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a:nollt..figMI.
- ·THn:
-
-·-
stort. Thut . .
• store tUt
bllilllaoral
GROWING UP ON THE EAST SIDE
JAO: lt!lll'i'o l don'tluw• \there your fuher C<.ln>a ffmn, !w< where I came fu;un,
n~w•p~pen- I'd run ..rn.nd! fQ<' tho'c report<"n My bo,_-
pl~'(l<>g ~~~:olf [i!tli.~
r1ficej, ~nd lv wu ~h<>~:>~int; golf hi>lb: thro~ :>n upturnN ..,)<,phon<: book, ;.ul
fhal't the lmd of y>b I wJntrdl (I_,~ tal
t:nOCUIIHits, HI!
.........
•-"11im e~eryb<><ty
At<~lrl•,
wu OU> omrnigcr.~nt- My ~op;, were fr<>rn Euro~- My f~moty
both my rn.oth<'r md my far~er, We llvffl 011 N""" Yo.-'o:'1l,DWtt ~~Sid.<.
ume fmm ro,mulhud~"""~'
Klltrl': Wher" I r~me from. Suffolk Str=t? !! niH ls, ;md No.-folk Sl.reei nat \0 io:
.. ...,.._ .uLI u. Tho: whole n"'"- .- exuemcly 1"""'"·

~ valw (.)(money,.,.. doffcr.,nt thea We pbd $12 rem :1 11>0nth. and a n1d.d
lftO-dUWc
""'
_,. "'""' '"orth ,.,aybe th<' '"<t""'-.l~nt of 1 doll;;r.r tO<by h""""' very hud hx a )"'<'11!f rn Wlla1 k< ,_, jttthn .u.r
-c~~..-,..a
.-n
nun to gr.l • nickd fr<:lm htt rnath .. r, bur rom .. how you mt.Mgood Whro I V1oi<ed
N,.,. Yorl • .,.,.,..d:>ody
tiler" ... fur(' I
th<lught \t l<OUid (;IV.. mf :o. big thnll tf he took m" down
If''""'
up,~ I'd~ thnU"d h)'~ >~gin al my humble or>f!IU, and
I tmed the place I 1'<1inf~d 1'<1 get out t>f there I [ Laucl<l<tl
nit crnoc~ JOUIIctfAl: N,. 1/w u t1u Ut.>tY &ut Si.h. F.ura, >Mal mmr
KlQY! It,.,..., an SuiluUo. SuecL It~ right o-ut to Norfolk su,.et. and l went to
><"hool ~~ f'.S. 10.

1<:IRI'I': My b~r -:.rUd In a £¥-tory lilt tV<'I)T.ody ~~·. f;uhu. My p.ue-t~tJ,W<:re
lJfln'l<~ntJ, ~nd (he place fm ~~~ !llUit>JU.fi~ w,..
U, f:.o.cwrka. -~~ were \he
>our~e of cheo.p l~boJr_ Tho: irtunosnntt !u.d 1o matic alivin~. Thq tu.d w niPJ><Xt
thdrbmlll«. •nd !hey- did tl on ""ll' link, and !O....,. h&d """1' hule
w~ couldn't .....,..r 1h"' b,:a of c~ I a.t-ys wore turtknecl:. ~lCn Vtd
YD<l know,
knidzn -;;h..,.. I could !!"""'" them. There """"' <WO altn, my brother Jll<d I. My
brrnher II snne. He f'U"'d -sy. lO J'ro the only oneldt In !he httuly. He wu a
TCJ: V.'IIJ dol. ygu hM• 1M ('L<nf youn~er lmuhcr. Ho: wu five ~lin my jut1lot He -I:MQ"'· He wu I bout 6' 1",
J(lQ't. l hn"d the pl:><:..e Mau...l w..u, ol \WU the auom.phet" ttult I! wu the 'leO y br<nd k>d, and wh(fl I coo me out ol ><:hO<JI, I'd ~ Jtlrtlf>"d 0,. all theu ~
oo1y peuple l:>thaYcd. I s;« w:k o( th;t$1TIS peopl~ ~II O'l'ef ro<\ftopt: .md tw.1.ng and he'd~ my f"''"'
•ud.ing o-ut aithll pik •Bd dl,.,.ln_ ,._.,d t....'d pull me out
them <:h>-"' m.- """« t<X>IInf>J. I knew that there .n< !Olt\t<hltl! ~Utt, •nd from under \hll pi~. >Uld ~·d ,..lnlelmo t))('m
mmntt wid me thu tl W;tJ uptown, ..W. I'd w;>ll ¢W'tf dll~ ftom my bb:k to i2Jtd TCI: H-.~ J"" "'1 ,_ ......,~ -.1-,-r[M .-.>tuh"f...U of .. of~ pu.
Stnet "'""'" t.h" D<>U, ~ wu, whete I ctl'.lld be n"ar Ule }""rnlll, ID" Hunt 11 ""'""" ,...,_·"'! ~""'- bt.r 1 atm- <1 ...,..,. 1 "''''•'"'f li>nt.
I'J~ ft'l not.....,.,.. umtiln-8; nO'If that I t.hlnk about lt.
Yo.. k.now, the punchel wue re-;U. a.ud th" Ul~ w»
ce..J, 1.nd -·d chue ~ad> oth= np and down fue
no~.~ rooftopf.. •nd -·d dimb actt>!J
/ dothelline., uttl th~r~ ~"' ral >rl:l•met.
Tt.l: T1us""" a ""'t~ !U!pl-Moti.
•rii!Y: Thb ..-;u the ,..,..,ghHII
TO: C,n _-. apl-. whlU,....-.u b:p ~f W... L4m'
K"~K',
Yeo, there....,,~ pnp ~u ~the phoe. Sol:n.o:
Klllft':
of my frie11..,nme •
g;onguer dep<:-ndins "JX'ff )l.,.... fJOOt )'OU w:~rued a suiL
G>tngaen weren't thee m::r~ you see in the
lnovio. l knew 1Ju, re.J oneo, and th" rnJ oue1 W<:«'
- out for his: mone•r The ~~e potitki:ul ._.

cr<>'*ed That w:u my ambition; to be • crooked
poltti<;b.n. I'd~~ i111~ tettllunntl, IJid
they'd ~u hotd tht:K confer=ca.l'd Jce pnlitlciarn
,.ho -ro: "-'Pfl'OI"d to be on "f''lOii~ H<kl o( iuuel
;o.ll tog~l>er u one labk
Tt.I:DiJthu~,_..~~-;tiitkJ,:,.
t1-nr,.1
Klii:S'I: If Amerio. ~ ;onylx>d)' anythi"f. 1;t il
unbition. &d thing~ IO'<>uld corn.: out of it heo.use
mrn..: gu'Y" ur; in >- hutry, but th-at do<:m't Il'ltln
the{n: e>'il.,.- an)'lhiJl!; ll.jtnt me<U'Il they fitlllow
bad gn.c" romeho-.o.
It wu bird to lind wori:. A f.-i.,nd of mine
"""'ll:oin(l: to 11:0 out to ~~:e~; a job ~>eQ_,_ hi$ motbu
wid him to get a job, ro II<' uM:t. ~ru go out and m..
pil:lurn •nd thq'll ~me for !Mm." And hit modler
said.~~ wn t>f uline ..u1 bee orne..,. utitt. You'll AI:
uoond with bereu in C......m.icb Vilb:gl: and r.1k lQ
~women." Of <=ltle. moclwn ~very
JA796
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66-11 509514, Page26 of
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w.n,.,nrlnn;ot E.-cry1hi"! wu ""ry cr>n"<!nuon:ot You

h.odtoh3w~r<!N<U.
TO: 1hn-# _..., _., .tnd _,.; <l>n!H>OI"""'-l.
I<Kial amvent><lnl. ~rnl. )'J<l •illl~•ffi t<>
IOIIIlr: "\.b'y nrlct
tl. a.nd I thinl it~ rou' !o1 of dan.c1er V.'hm ~
rrun J;Ud =~th•nl!:, h<: n>Qilt lL He w.un't J.!Mi~
Mollnrt. n..,~-.-.: TW- joO:"' ln"""""d. Nobody ....~... m
u.., muod to y.ke oml;u you hit • guy with a ~h.dl
Kl: C...- b!aiW flu-..../ t#!/IUI 4 4/lh ,_.-I 1M hd

J:'<",(l thnl. .--, "'....,;,.,. ..rnulif/; Did tlo"1 An.... tJwrr"""'
lu.r{T Did 1M! ...... '" r.aJ >:a"f."'
1011:11'1': 1bq un m g;).ltga beaw.e lhtry ltv~rt In cHtaln
pl:l<:c._ E....,.ryb<.dy ..tlo liw.d on Su/fnll St<e« would
b.,We Sutfuik Sr.-en Cong. E"nyboclr who hvffi on
N.:ntofk StJe-fi .....:.ou!t! ~ lhe Norfolk .'>!r,..., (:.Ong
rcr. ~~t:f),...:CJn,t_,,/
~Wen, lhere wue t;hnlc divt:<Ooou, YM Some
g:ong. """tc J.riUt. some pot~ were b!:uL
TO: MIJ-114in1><<A:~ul t<><:>k Judo. Ou• ol a cU.. a( 'fl, jmt ~ aa;l ~ fellow gndumd n.e.-.: -
~ ·n.., 1e- viokn£'e be<:nlM-, tlrn of ;til, rt~<:r" ""''" "t.bmc d.fr=ru 30d nuttung ,...-ong .nth mr. I ~ it
"'""'""'- lf yoo """'"' 101JU11, they c1llt,d you o run1, ond you !ud !<> do 1<>m<!thm~ TCJ: N~• !Jotu fi{jt!l i>t J0<6 Nip~- iJotu _,. uri<t>U, k~ .iT~
3l>OUI: ttun """"' if ~re """'""five olha ~)'1. fipur
-n,.,,.,-~a lot of ethnic 1lu..,: th~re h3d Ink And J think, ·m !hat~. i(l!ml Oh j'C:l. rh.ey """ce. N01; only that, but they lftfe climb-<>Ut fig h.~. Tber" w.u
th;u thr~h the rtKhlin!, through lh" 3dw-nity. we b.-g= to know o..:h 0\Mr. I ~monument •tore. a uott that huilt fun~lll.l m<m~ ;v,d,......, ~ to nm
h:ul nn-...--""e-11 ~n In~ I'd n~•een ao Italian. MyMltyh~ n~roeen o~ !ho:'!e ll>OIJWlletoll- ~ us«~ to hop frntn monument to monum~nl do=og-
:m Jt2lbn. Mr (amiJy ca""' fr<lm C<:ntr.U Europe."'"· omd trn.,.,...... Germuu ond eacl'l other. For alll1<no>of, they IUOJ' ltill be"" Suffoll< Stn-et.
ro:N-....rt.u<k,.,._t,., ·~,fttJu·r
You lu.d togrow up ..:n)lrtUJle. The fel!owt who gre.. up e~rly. they -...er~ in IURft'. A dmb-out f~ht 11 wher" )'OU climb • build In!· You cU!llb fire escapa. You
~~ 1h,.,. beQme ~ topt =d the cn::.olo, md th<! crooh blor.ul>e the climb !-' the top of the build in!. Y<.~<.~ tight on the roo(, Uld you tlibt ;WI the .ny
gat1pltt'l- TM- (::f"OOokJ t>c,.csme the Al C.pon.,., <loom l~n. You fightdOM> me IYO(I(kD .uir1, led And, ofcou~. I dldn'twin
TO: ~ m><.Jwcl ~cwtr.f a:W g-a~ ~ Mt ..u.t dil~r ~<X !han. You fW!I>tf>l/r. f/rMc<lther"JUrWWUI !DtiPfuw:l roo.~ him om,
~They lftte looked on~ ;o,;;cepuble, but ...;!I! (<-'lr. I! WUII'tot rn..;~tter ol you dld yo..- bc:rt forrnr...
Y001 didn't"""'-! to hun hU...,.,.., ~"There- one time
~ I t - what lhq ...nt«<, how ful thq oru>ted IL Now, C'..:lf>OO." ra11 •her lu>ocUd me out and bid ~in front of my IJ><:lilitr'! dooc And in O«kr for my
Ch.it::..:os:o. H<! .,.., the polilidam. HI" r.on the enti~ d~ Yet hUIII<:>th¢ OIUUkl u>Odlet- nut lo to.. 1hoded. they~ myd<ltba md they gw thall\Oihing-
r~ out..-..:! obp him uound [.,..not going to ~hurrh on Sun <by. rumpkd .J.Dd lloolte.t very comfombk nttt 10 the oputmeo:st ~ ro when my
TCJt ~~=~~~U>r modltt would open ""' door it ""-".ddn't !;.., Wit tnucll. ot• $hod,
Ynr, the')' wett lookeclup 1n Uld kal'«<. !think Y"" c~n Oe 10<>1<.~ up to ou<
Kll!l:'f, ro, KW.t J"U l2dtudlJ ~ .. ~,
of f.,.. just u mud1 <01 you c;w look tlp to ~ mao bi-Cil\i:1.e olhil ability or h"'' rntt'l'>Wdl,)'el.
pmm.looe. Adolf H~r. Adolf Hitltt- look.ed up to. Ho:..,.. r~ffi almo.t li):." ~ Tel:: ~,... nw uri6tu1J ;~1lm>l:m"""""' r,r .•
God, h.,Q<Ue h.e wufeued Klltll'l No, I don't think JO. llliU po-euy ~ to be fr=k with you, but apimt fhoe
ru, oo,... :-m'f r;rt '""to~ af fif,W.w-,..,......"
*><lr guy!' ... you know, it rl!dn't r=Jiy f.lze me.
~Yet. Thq ~re un.:~K>idable. ROl ~You~ like~ Aroe.rica.
IW1: lt1JI2Y: And your h«>ther s:ot lmo ~lot of fighil. KIRBY: Yett. CapW11 Atnerlca Wl>t.lkl try to tight ten ~ t Q.id, 'How do )'O'U fight
~Yet.·"-* I uid, my brother wu a tHg kid. ten guyai' The flgtu.1 Ill CAjt!rsin A-"as were """fJ>erlou.. U )'O'U tooted them
TO: A t-..t/1 kidr ow:r, they're rnl fights. I'd ny, ~~to lhlJ Mwhllco Cap flghta: tJ...
~He,.... .. tough .. anybody e~. but M waJ ~- My mothe!- WWitl:d mr othrr four?" And I woWd f!Jure it out like • ballet. Tt wouki n::aUy be a. bllllel.
brothef-to ~ ni<"e t!DthM: aOO bl" a ~ill Wcll, <;;on you.~ a~ TCJ1 .0. ytm jnl ~Ill,....,.~"'' t4U ~....,.,. 4J ~!U ~ iht.. ~in
bd with • bee~ md ~ pantll and lonf, curly IWr- blonde hair lh;!.t came J=T~m.d _...,.,.,.... ... tlutt~1
~to hit~ I'd get into fishts ~of my brodta, uuf I fDt in EO lip>ts IOUY-. Wdl. it hclped. me live. It he\ped mo. May :o11w:.
~o[hil:~panband hi$ lac<!colhr, ;and Ill'/' brcthe.--~ a )'OUtlg« TO: 1--, t~.,.,.. Uli!Li: itcoJ!«:lM ~ _,1""W..U ~lllii1JII'I'-
bay_ did u.e
~>at be coul<:l, bot r had to ~ Into the,e ~ r had 1o0 redlr ~ I'Ja1l Oil, r= Y<><I un jud~ It fot youoelf. You an tee my Cllliy books on
in10 'ttn, :md I did. And it._. a ~om.mon,. ~ o.:omen= flthticg beame CaP4tirt A~ I '-ito draw the~ l knew. In.,....., fi!ht Ken~ I n:c~fud
JoecOn<ltwt.u-e, lbegs.n to Ilk it And I""""" IOT<'ldJn!. Wkn l-...e11tlnKo theJmnr. I my unck I'd~~ dn,..,... my uncle. md I didn't know it until I '<>Ok
MARVEL0017208
CONFIDENTIAL
JA797
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
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the~-"'~~" home. So I,..,. dnmnlt t"l':aloty, lnd lfyou look- tlwo<llh •ll my dnl<'lllp, f(J: la..1 ael"a/1] •t~nM Y"" dra-41.0~(1 1-Wuu K"<'<' J<!tlllu t.fMl"U uw.ltt dnu.t
;~>u'll••"' culity. When I bcpn to 8"rowolder.l grew le.o..~ Yuu delll'l "'~grow 1(~: t ...,."'~ 1<>- I felt 1lut I n>Uid. I'd hee-n d,..,.,ll! ~n •.long b<:uUU~ I felt
1<-M t.elll~erwt .. nybody ~=ld do thu. All bunao bcinp ~u,...., the (•f>d>•litr of doing ><tut th<ry"
Kl< \L.:o"(>'o"'tJ ./tJtM want, "'hit thc-y're •ttno.cted 10
1(~: llo~yt 1m1.k )'0\1., ><:J~Y~t:how, •nd 11 dw;o'fJ hu ou u~ T(J: Jlhi~~ aJ lilt- <1£0 q I~ f1>U rnml!M <>1 1J.i Pnill ksu/,.r..,
T(J· IW.,u h11J of ,.<tttUJan<~l4<iniofWJ dtJ )-<1W f"~"' <U" hen 1 """"' tiJit J'M' ~ l(JQ'i: Ye.. t did
1ttriba/l. {Of <!UIC~o:.o'l ro, C4-.ot ~ r.-1/"" hew J<lil """' ab<n.t dotttf tlttd1
J(IQ'(;Yn. I pbyed .,.;-ef)'tJuniJ- I pbyed 'lkkh>JL I p!.yo:-d fr~uebJll. I played lrit lt;\111:'1'.1 ~nf to 1hc Pr:111 1Mri-tUfo:, but I di.-ln't go then: !or loog. I d<dn'tlil:.oo
end oo my h>gh Mhonl team 1-'l;o.cr;l With niles.
rCJ, 1\?o<t{ uJoU)'<t"" r.dllltMI,}up ,..JA-"""' f><1rn~ll !.bt ICI: fi~M /toll{ di<l p1ohoulrlen-- I inc:no my f>thM" ln=d me_ Ail f~mi1~ to-oe the\r child!-...-., and !ODI:.m~ fur. They wuo1~ p;uient P""'Pk who~ wor~ on WCleltnng for~r. I
"'" """~"" ~ood boyi- d><ln't wmt 10 worl Oil mr pruje-a fo-r.,....,... lloten<kd to ~et th10p done. I d<d
rn &d ,.,_.. ""Jll'f ,c'-11 w.., r- "grn>J JNdm/1 •h" be01. rfn;Wlnl I could. :1.1\d tt wu ,-ery t<k<juatt- i• h..:! vi:tbllity. It h~d
flexibility. ·n.., peo-ple in the :ut cbu
~nd ol .ymp;>o<IH-""d mlh me. md yet
they couldn't ~b;utdrn; their mm
uudook t"""'"fd art.
lCJ: 11-'<ot..ld )'<"U "'J 0. F'm1t butJtuflt
~ "fo> ..ar/IIWI<>M1
l(ll!f'f: Yt$. Jt,q~ a fin~t 011Uo<tk. it
,.._ 1 fO< ru;U <>uliOD~ ~n.d 11 w:u a
Teipe-cted outk><>k.. 1 re1p<Xted ll, mo
I ~d vn--, hi~=~ fo-r tbe Pratt
lnmtute, bm I thO\IKf\t tlutl !ud
<1ono: my b-Cit. ~ndttut wu not their
Vttlkln of tlu: bfi-1_
ro, Set. "fiFr Pn!u""' lfllt4i 'fi"'IRif

Mwwtl.--
~llll'f;
ltatoVlt mytdfhow w dra,.,
and I won found out 11 ona w~t I
re'tlly ...,.nted lo do-. I didn't think I
""" gojnl!: to neate any gre2t
mUINpte<;el ~kt Rcmbnmk or
----
FAd] '301- Ewtry
Jade c...-n....
J gOO<! m><kot 1n the mbjato m.t t w;onle<l to- be good >n. The
IORftl'c I '...:<5
''miculu.n m my *<"CU0ll"""' e~t(dknt- I lun:" 800<1 Jei'\Je ofhilttl>ry.
TO: M-, '"'~ J'O" ltll ''" udi4J )'<tl'~ fa*rlf hf" ~ llbr m,...,...._ do.u1
klll:tr. My family hfe w;u dot.e. 11u:r - r t a ...-o<~derf<.ll family.
Tc.t I wM.maRd IAAI o.< <1 kW 'j<rU wert _..,-.;"'f of 11 ~,.,._
Gi>ttguin. l thought co<lliO.,...,. •
common fonn ofa~t and <11Kdy Atnerion in my eulm.::tOOn, b<-c.tuoc ~rka,.,..
!he hc:om.. o( the common mMO. ;ond 1how me ~ con•mon man !fuo.t c-an •1 flo a
cumic.. So comia it w Aroerk"'' form of ftn th'~
~ 1t'1 :t demOcrMk ;on_ It's 1\-0\a fomutl "-11. I ftocl a fine uliitls- ne>«<
rrMfnt lit .null. a IINgh <UigM«<>oodl
TCJ: !{""' dU J<>U ,,...., It! Ill m!n'a~M flo through with hil11.'0rl, h«:at>~-e lt's ""'"'~'' peffcct <o him.
Klllh': I came out of ~dtool one day, and m..o: ...aa thq: pulp m;o-g;ulne. II""'"'" TCl: D!m~]Q'I. 1/U'<i-;r<"• ~<huvrd II Ir;tiif/N'iftct~ in J"~T- ""'*r
,:Uuy tJ..:.r. and 11 w:u Ooatin! towud the ~wer ln the gutta. So I ptd. up 1hil pulp l.:ll'm': y,., I did. [ :rtehlewxl perfcnJ.on. my type of perfection- vW.Ial •~<>ryv:Wng.
nugumo:, and it'• \\bUn Skmn, ;ond !t'1J!;Q( ~rock« lh!p on th-e e<WU, ond I'd Storytell;fr!: wu my lt)"l~. I,...,. -.n udot.. but not a oelf-pnx!~im<:d !fn::.l artin.jUI-t
n....-er 1~n • ro.:ket1h1p. I uld, "What tbe lw:td; II th...r I t£>o:>k it borne ~lld l>id it 1t common m•n who wuworl:ing'"" form of 3n whtch 11 <><>W uni-..o:1ut I get
"'nier do-e pillow so nobody 1hould know I wu re..Ung i-t. And, Q[ co.urte, if the kt~ from people of my olm &t:t.ntt.
fcllo,... c;o.ugbt me re;odin!f it or doirt« :mythlfl( .a.demk outside of Jeh<>Ol - rcr. H-diC:- lr«<ff ,-r>nj.W. l#dn:uyr Did.JW ""~r
TCI: N-. Jf1t1 r-rni frulpt. Dirl )"\'II® uarl ~ tirips1 .tOQ'Yt I '-"«! .:ony method I ~·mid, really_
l(Jm': Ye:<r. I did. llovrtl the newt.p>tper rulpL I !<JO'ed &r_, Goll(lt. I think thu'l TCJ: Did. J"" X<J -l<i-h -ct ,U-.frlt fr- frfrl I'• Jryittff ~ fiM ""I A.,.., J"" ad=U,
wh01t b<'ought me m1o JOUr~sm.. 1he a>mia u-e w brgt: and colorful The IM.mtril#~lwto,..~<l'>l<ll~
p~~e. are ottreme!1 b~, and I tned to !!l't'Oe that. And ~ iWi.ml. of course- tuU'I'I. My ;ona.lomy""" oelf-t>~ught. I feel~ hou th.1 al.>ilJtr. 1 dce~~r
it"""' :.swniohln~t too= this bcautif'll 1llu.tn.tioo in !he newsp-per, md it...,... so t<Utu'KuYely. Mine wu •n lnst!nctiYe style.
d<ffe-rnll ftom U.., ordUu.ry comic. TCJ: W J"''< Ot _-,moor IJ{t IMn! of lllling""J f~ <Uitraim"tl
l'tl<>'
JA798
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66-11 509514, Page28 of
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1-:.!l!aY: Whe-n I bejf-ln doint the 'mP" Uft: Lat. 'Jrh *'~
Ttl' IVIIJ t:UI<If1 tJuJ "I"" ~pur""""'' ~rir-/"]td
KlliSY; I ""nted ttJ he~~~ ~nun. My !larr>t' u K~.uukrlj. (::-tw..
f(J' Wiry d>4A'rpo;. U,M Ktu~"""' "" .uctp~MUA.n<mrm> ,., .... t
~!REI': I ftlt >i yt>u ,.,rued to It~"" ~ ~rut n:..me, tl ...-.uld be hrntW01th, right?
I Jr ~tJnwuthn I felt J:u); J(u-by wu du.e tu my real name.
TCJ' Y~"hjtt~~<Jh, W.u ,~.,.. ..,tt .~limo t..ui: f}u.,.t
to:I~Yeo. A lot afu. rheywere wnfronUt.lon;J d;ry>', wh<>n pcnpk of ,Jiffaent
h~ctg-.-ound.o h~d [(> llv~ 10g~thH And H h:un't 'h~nged ft~u:'• .UlU-Sem!Utm
<U<L.r-
l\1RM', My bther ..u Gor"'-""""'tro"l Wt were neve.- O!!hodn>~, bu(..., _,..,

t:on'lt-f"t:ffIJ.\'e I went to Hd•rcw odwol h ~ Wo~e a hvery .ubl.e, !he Hebn-w
<~hoal, Unulth~ d~r I die !'U n~ furget rhal'""lflderful ra~..., wed to -li.f ~L
! ldn.,_ '"'-haul wu ~ <O"'Ch plxe. An ~1rpbne fk',o ove.- one dJ.y ~d I r.., O'o'e1" u:.
rh~ .,;,.-1.-- ar;d ___ .-yo.,. wu pu•hin11•nd oh<:,<;,n8 each other, ~nd wM• !")'
tc-;olly 1h-<M:rl meum ol ~way--- I kno.:k~d him ck-w out_

TCJ: lfou<M:,.,.,.•yot~1
m.r: No. l 1~1\ youn~ f>dlpl"' <hot it'• ~rl""""'~~""' to muty ut kllllfl': I 'Vb •bout 12 I \ftlll't hn miu..ahed ret- They h;od to pi<:[( him "ff· But, I
TCr. D>d 1"" lmrn "ru:~"',. ~ """-'<W <170. Mu th<7 can....a, aM l<> on1 w-.u ro e.J.ge<c. n,u ......u •!J..Ch"" innov;oOOn, 10 he:tr the wuM of the motor o{ ;w
!<ll<&'l': I uarch~d lt o\tt, •nd ! nude my o-.m mu.da, .md ( m.>d" flt)' f>-gU-r6 a; ~irpl:~t~e flyil\f .,...,thud, I JUI.t h~d ro ~et ill ere in front. l~n~ ~ru-uted by
po..nful U- r ~oakl ,,.,..,.--yfhlnll! thot teemed to f>, """"md adnn<c«L I uw 7M Ti-M~

TU: Haw d>4 J0<1 """'- f>mf*lnHr ro. w ,_ =c:MfHin. ·, f1J-,
~lllil'l'l You k"l<<!"'rJfX'~U..., ,.e)J, lfyou'm \)<ought up •n the ury, if it d = ' t Klli:!Y: Yt:J., I u.w the Clu(>!IA ca.-...:die<, Bl.Uta Ke~wn, l •~..- the I-bn b.-othen on
look right )'OU'U kn<Jw iL IIlli, if you grow up in"- ~HY :md .ee the ury, you'll get"- a ll~p;e when they --ren 't ....,n in the mo-riel.
ury u 11 re.aJir a ""t,h all the fl.,Lill that you r.--memb<:t lfy<~u',-., d....-wlng a TCJ; 1\l:u diU"" ~U.t
.,..,.,ll~rn town, you cut duplu:ot~ thll """"'tun to-wn from lllo$tinct ~lu~. Some RIMY: Thu would he nudeonlk. I'd 8" to !he A<:adNI>y afMUiic on 14th Stre"t in ~AY.,...~
:u-ur.tt nu;y uU it from o!hcr ilh11untioru or duplicate wlut yuu'w dr~wn. butn New Yult It might :rt>U be there for all I """"""The M:u-I lxoth<=n c;une "" ''-"!!:"' c.- Fnt ~trip Jr-
1nll ~ 11.<1.., th<ot ~t re-:~hcy that'• •mdnrciw in the JfliR ~nd they did thd.- :o.:t. I <aw them In the mook:o. I :u....,d the M~nt b.-other~. I ~Wa-'Jtlt, m..
TCI: W7ttlf <1tl•<t> ~ 1"" a.t.n--. "':Y""" t..... -;n=t w-~nted to go 10 Cilifornia and my mothe.- nkl, "No, you nn 't go lQ Califo.-nb. • ..,_,,..~-
~ I ..dmire;;l thnn .Jl. I ~dmit-ro urybody who n:tQid tnm • bw::k whh hil Of cau,-,.,, oi-OOn.dud.o ..,,.,
drawing. (L..o:!u&ltt<>i rlifkrmt m ~ dayo- the
TCJ: y.,.. O't<UI ,_.,. bd " " , . ftw ~ """*- rm>ther """-' u~\ahlt:.
~ I li~ qo.u.liry- wo•k.. Cum~e~ hk<: Pt.nu ~"'-"">tt II~ Mtlton Druff and h~
...,.nrk. £~did. If"- mon w;u gl}Od, he - unM:rWly hkd
TO: v,m.-,.,.." "") ~ P'"='-~ .u <l t"""'~t PRE-WAR
Ye1,1,..,.
KQI:JI'JI:
TO: WM--o- i<>,.... t},,.,,._ '!""' (<'f tfrtU1 W.u tMI fr- ,_.- ja1Aor1 CAREER
!<lillY< No, jwt grO'Wing up on the ln.o~ Eau Silk.
n:r. D<d,..,..._~ /QI.af"'"""" ,.,W.J<"" ~a.tui1 TC;j: y~ .. -.,ltd ... ""' 4SJ1JU-nl
IQIIS'I':' Yo. IWiil 1 tn~ P"•-•<m. I think tr ..u une of the r~u.on.
I dre-w ccrnia. foM.u:Fimc:M:
They g~l..,.,mud me, Wh~n Supnman c~"'-"' out. i1 ph';>n!ttd th~ enore mdtnl.fy. I(J~Y=!~m\h.e
It"• JW! put of 1h-<: Arne= ..:e•).,. Supe-rm~n. '' gumg to hrt ro~- Thry'll be F1e&htr lotudiu
r~;~.dl:ng SupermU! In the o~xt century -..hen J"U md I u~ goM. I (de m th;U TCJ:H=d.iJ.LIIt!ttmU<Iboult
rope~t I - . d01ng the'-"""" thing. I ~ted 10 he knO'o'm. l wun't IJUlllJI; w ~U ~ to:llm': I ~ied for it, ;o.nrl l
c<>fflll; th~t oa. KO!"II (1) <he quidl~. ""'-" ne""~ r~~ay rur~ dcrwn
TCJ: I .. ~and 1fl' p a pit ..,uh a ""all
1ll:frlf'<lt->J"dicau ooMn""" """•18. lor any~hirtt- I jtW did thiflr
~1118'1: {L-i>=Uo] NC'W'!papcr Fnttlffl ;u; wcl! "" l muld, ~nd I WH
TCJ= WMI_,--.,-damff""lhn~r accef>!ed. Then I -nt tu wort

!<l~ I wu domg edlt01oab. I dW. Year H.JU, Co-.: F~tU. I did u100>ex" d:aily with th~ FkiKher bn>the-ri,
comi.c. On e~h <'Otnic •o-ip l put • dilfer~nl !Uffie. I di<:ln'lwsnt til- be in any :ond th"Y dl.d ~nllfl1!.k>!'l. It.,....
puti<:ular envimnmem, 1.-.nted m be an lll-llround Aw<:riun. I k.cpt Kirby. My ::m Uloernbl:y Hne. In o-rder to
m<XI>ec &"""'me hdl My bt.her g;we m<0 hell. My 12mity d~..w.rned me. dn.w ~ fi~ tU.ing l fu.ll
TC± Y'M><Utll.<illJdumttdJ<"<'"""""'Ii>Kirl>,7 •tep. 11'1!l\lhl dnw nx pic-wrt:t
JA799
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
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U>d th~n p~ i< ~lonl!" 10 Wei.U.gn oi OC.

oome u~ fellow. lbtcn rcr. Dl<J<ly ;ill tJC
~~~ Thh long uoble- TO: N-..,""' ..,.,.. inlfud l>lhnl J<"' _,_, 16. C..• ~ •~:~m6.r yo~• '~""<·~ ,..,_ "'"'"
lou of people workm& u lll1"1'r"'""'.fdrofWT
th" t~hk- !1"""' _. f:;octory KlR~ I....,. dotng v....-y .....,lJ, [~no; doin!! ~A~
in ~ ~""'· hk my btlu•r'l TC_t, )'"" 181!nl fr-< t/u fhu<illr !h. d.., c. ~t
P.lw.>ry. Thq ><tr" ~IU'I'. ! .......,t from Uncoln to Fkis<::h«. from Fk'-~hu I h:><l to get <)Ut m .o. hurry
mwuluturi"! pKtu.-e;o. bec~t1111 I cotddn'l take th~l lcl!'\d of thtnR· I ~n 10 ~e the first c<:>rnk i><:><>b
TCl: y.,., .n.J.n~ filu t.l.a.ll ~~- I u.n re<rn:mbu !hem hUll("'! from <he n~dl
IO:lm': 1 rhdn't H~e dut. I Tn f rAi.u )ll'W ...:rltd f"'" Via~ F= ~!J that Nrw "-o W ..m f#na _,..... ..-W1
l'roUl~ to du my own. KIIUYr Vinor- foK ~ :m4l.her ~dic-:lted h<:HUe
TC.t. H"""l.mfJjj,pw o:oooi TCJ: \\.?o.:tl dU JM' dl! fv Yi<iK p,,,.,
~~ WFIIU<Mr tt>i.Jua1 klllrr. I did cottuc "nr--
I(IIS'I': Not ~y lo"1f. I'm TC-" r- .-iM,.. ~ <.JW Blu.e S..e!k I Mi-
on ond.o-..diulf<1.- I ,J..,.,.. IQIIJYo .,.,.., I did lJhu &.«.11.nd ~ <hln!t; ~lliled S=l.> ~ ~ I h>wl .Jr""'<~r met
felt <hu I want~d to dn joe &mon.
' - wh:u I ~ted w do.
TCJ:Y~w.n-~
TCJ: .~MAhduljonCl-
of .mvo fo.- un;ill fT!ldinlo.
~- =' t
k/R;IY: YeL l did a V;lrlety
"""
Ca" J'O" !dl ""< otl<.u ,,, 1>11< rCJ, Can J"U c;pl.- I.Dw Jn IN lA- ~I
,; f ·~
...,,"' ""'--"''
~An·.W.,(W1';enef
-nt up and applied f<>l' fhcm :and got them.
lOitn'! 1 just
rn~~"'*""'""daont
c~ , P""'cifled m tht! actinto ro
\ 'f. • ~afullnep. !.n TCJ: D,.,.,..-* m IMr Jllldi~l
\'!'i..''..;._,' other W<Wdlo. the ITW1 kll.r: Ya It orould b.: hh a loft r«~IC,. They o;.ere luge loft~., pknoy n[ "J'i'!'C
t.don: you wnuld ~gin T(J, H- "'mt;1 t-1'~ ..wid M """*"'I'" ~~t{Jiu:u jHd<41 ~ U I. • """*'-of
imow;ft!t the fuU Mq>- It .rrU-11<1
mi15lu uk.e lhr~ or fOUf lOIIBY: Yu. M.>.ybr: r...., or .U. p<:"opk. >Om<!timu rnore. It dep<:r-..::kd on how hi( a
pktures. The i,-rb.:,~~''"' company k wu and who W uusts ~rc. They ..-tte bq:uuung w W&cm.:r comic.~
would draw the if).berwecn JU.-1 like...., -re CXC"fl''they ,......-e nplonng W busi""" end oL conuu. No:,,., the-
--
llepl- He wouhl drnw ilie hu<ifM':Ia V1d o{ <:<>mK:'I " ~n cnurely dilTtr=t type of fhint
KgllleT>t of ukn>g thu TO. llht dus"' ,._,~,. ~r
Jtep. ArlfiMtiO<l WiU d=
In thil type of w;o;y. Tl>t' TCJ: ~,_;aidt-~~pnmrr
right---,. It oan ll t:hc ~I wu p;ud per .....a. A nat ""'"'tty nee.
riiJI'II-r in many pbc.,. I TCJ;tlnd,.,..-...,~~I!J"'M""~•w...!lorofpnp.r
A. 'Tho! DWyorn.: wor~ for amm;oUOfl howeJ [,._j but m .on indiv>d~ ~-1 concefve 1smry, I I(Jtll)': Yo. Tbef ~nu.d a cer~ unount of p;oget <0 they could p&Jl them to the
Ha)""''<d -'It Jtt- cor~ai-.e ch•r.onen, e~yilie [d.>allh" nllfiU\IO<'l. nt'O<tkllow.
tmtat.-10)1,~ Ttit Y.ru.UUM<*WiiM~fotl-'r_{a<t"')t Td: T-tl- if 1.... ,.._, TM ~ Cll<llid 0..,., ~aM L4m Jotd o-..,.,. ~
Ltnoio ...
"(',-1
rnw. Nt!"!'er. 8\lt r did~ other Morio:1. 1o pu.UUJtm ,..lwr TrVIUSJA V.... jnnt If..~
TU: M.sJfacm<J did,-r f.W,..-* ""r lall1l': )b. Some-timet, though. they'd hw.e lfte-if" """' nngulnes like ju~
h w:u 1 g.onno:m f..aory.
I(JU'f: (a.llicl] they'd publWt In ~Uon "'hh othc-n.
10. Jt'r funrry. .ryfo.illn'u rrJ!<IItf-'1J='~ ~..d M,-- up m ~ Ycri,-. Ya~~. WJo Ta ---"""*'"rfo'r ><.WO..
WM.,.... -wd.JVU <T«U ~Jrlltv<nt~ of.,.."" clHio trr-...
tm" "" m NnJJ Yari .st !if"'"""-. 1""'- e-n <P«ifo amp- r
Kli'IS)< Yet.. :md - might h.:.~ be= dr:.fu:-d wgc!h....-. Tb:ot wu ~ h.orribk thlnf- laRII'I'! We <:Rlltt....-i thing!; out of whole doth_ I "'lU cre:uin!! thm~ all the time. Jo-e
w be dru\ed- becuue )"'U ~ Ul meet peopk lhllt yr:»t dkln't llU. You •pent a lot of ume wtth th<: Goodrnaru, •hu <l'Wrled _
found you nell m rrud'l WJ!h people from dllfennt puq of th" ~<IUllUJ'. TCJ:~ ]_,,~,_ "'"""-'*i1ofmcst...U..
TO: Yo><>....,..drujla/.1 !OISJ': Oh. Before joe, I-.. in~pro'risiniJ m-y.,....,

n>;>teria.J an the time.
~ I wu dnofled TCJt V...st"tlm _.._,w t, Via.,.F,.. ""'<t&s..-artollf'F--u.-IMJ-p4r
TCJ: \""'",...v.-.ldiA<It.WV.btmT ~ n.e,..,..,..., the butlnea peopk
{~_/4d:l W.. were maned m 'f:l, ~ocl you~ dnft«l next)'eU, 'fS.
ROI IOitl'l': TCJ: At~tl U... r«n I.WfJ'I>P&,.,... dmb ~ ~r
Kill:&.~
Middle of '1'. Yt"J:It. lxo.UK !took twk tnhling down ltr. c:A:ocgla :;u; th:.u l<lal't. Yu. _1 dnltdi:rectly wiih them. n.e,.- toM =e wn.t thq ._.~ .ro-, P""'
ojme. Mter t<ll:Jng "-'k inlnln~ I foond ~lf on rh~ bus goin! to Booton to :a me op:ace on wtUdt tO 'IO'Ori:.
I'OE- pott ofemN!kation.. Who'IIHtillf: next to 11"1.:. in r.b.e bu. bout Mort TCJl Mo\ct -.rJ01<r~"'"""ia liU ......... ,.. _.., """'*'"fia ~#luliM1
JA800
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-11 509514, Page30 of
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IIA1ilhS1
.........
IIQ
P<-.tlo
........
lullllep.IJ
;,_
IOIIII't: I fek !he co•nka grew~ thq b&'lme tl\, com..on ~>an'l hl<'n.ture, IO'MV: He Will v=y good In work f<ll':.. a 00.. Fox no...- boxhcred you. Fo'l! hl;ed
0
\he t!)'IIIJUO!:lllllln'l art, lb.: Comn:IQI>J'IUI'l 1 pubJlJhi:ng:, p<cdo.:-tiort. w., tu<'n«< <>uttb. <>SI>Oi..LIIt of~ he -nte<l, lUl.d he'-d pubiUh ·
TO: WMI _, ............,. ... "<1!<4wl /U4~ them. l.ike mo-t oi~ f~""" ~ut ~! ti~. l.:.ouldn't picture ~lflilln&
~ WeU, !he Eisner- I!"" •ll.><llo- thq >0e<t ...,.-y ene'f~ !'<'"~· they~ "' guy hke Fa11, but l <tid. I f"1'1Ui""'ly liW Vi~ tot Fox.
fioe ~nns peotM. ~phone calk aU oo.= !h(t pi;tte to ~ !'d rtCWT TCJ: DUI,.,... ......-- F""' ua..a,r
he;ud oC. They -re nmnln&"' bwineu. Th.q ~to:! ~ dont> <l ~m-um "<lY· No, I nt"Ytt ttw Fax~- YO'I.I ~ouldn't. there ..Umo btf: • g;ap. FoJo:
101m':
VtUOr Fo-. ....U.t. cb.lin.Ur. He'd look. up at the ceilintp<rit!o • his clgu. thia lluk wou1d l'l.t:"W"r mlngie widt • gur lJU me. Lil:.c I uid, Fox W\ll ambitioul.
fdlow, 1"''rf brm.d, 11:"'"« bold: wd forth with bll. ~J>ds bdinrl hia N<:-t urln!. TCJ' \Ww_,...,.*""tfw&-"...tfKvla.,l
"I'm the ~at die C~r I'm the Kl"'! of th<: o-K::al" :u\d ...-e wouJd ""'och ~ Ellllel" and lif('rwea en.etfCtic, df>dm1 an.d they_.....,lt'tout 1<:> be
him, and crfctruue- W<.>U.Id """"-Je beoo~Be ~wn a &<:nui.n.e ~- Ynu'd Jee hla frkndly; lhq ..-Me nUl to produce, P.:wnt=ny,- ;ill become penon;ll frlencb. It
type In a nwooie, ..00 you'd recognm him. ..-u U!tW for tho.-<m&h prof~. £lmn and I get ..-ant<:.-:1 to~ like
TCJ:H-oJ.i.•,....._.~t..,IA.>f~l ~ ebe. They wet"Q iD bumtew - I wu pan of dt:U bt""ne• and I Ud lO
IO'J~ Al tb1t ti..rJu:o,""' ""'uOd ~u~ been ill his 40$, ptoduce {01" th ....... Sa I did mr t>=. to pn>duu.
TO': Do 1P" h!- t>JM1 h Jid /;'<forf ~ """"- ..V...., fn-1 Ttl Dtd,.,. J.l ~ laiR ft;rr flit~ or ~.:rcA 1
IOII:W>Nn,l d<m't- ICIIII:rr.{de<lltmorewtr.h~
TO:fh-~t.olw-.lrtntnf"~w,.,.. ...... ~uno.,<f"Jl'<UI~ TCJ1 H- diJ Jl'* hoM •;...,. jl¥ -""-1
,..tJtF«:d Gom! up k> t!=.e ot&u ~'d me-et up, a lot ofUf. .WO JtoinS t.o do
lollll'l':
IURfl'l\ No. I don't r:fUnk Fox slurl:ed :any ol th" people ...tH>III'OfUrl with me. Vk Wlineuwilh these peopCc!.l hr.d""""' meta gur Hlej~ I bad n~ meta guy
""""-"' NJUll tim to Fo;r. l k - a nat> Mtll bOg~"" I think he mooo:d to fr0111 Syracuse, N.Y. I'd~ ~~><:ta gurwbo-.a.'t a tk..-Y~Joe looked lile
Canad:a, twoer t>.eud from :.pin. Ma)-t... ~ onnt<'d to t...o:un-e k.l.ns oCGuuda _ • poll-Ucian. Joe"'"~.~~. £mpr<:l!Oive g~>y. He ,nu
&.. He g()(_ ~deals far us,
.. here in the f"ilJ\10 f:et .t. ~~ daJ _...., unknown qu;wtitJ'. O>tnQ ;u a
btulneu beome • raJ thifls ~~ ..U ol.._ 1 nc-oe:r k.new anything abow.lhins ""'-h
RELEA."R :UO:'>OAY, JAN"lJAflY H, l!HO

The Blue Beetle THE ROOFTOP SHADOW by Charles Nicholas
A~.
Bhla~ ....
~l?'fd-·.-
JA801
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
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wanted ~ hnle I'!K>re m(Jf\CY. !.hey~ ...,.., me •

little m<>fe money.
lOZ J<IW'r: They threw yo:><> honea.
~!RW Yuh. thq threw nt.c' bone"-. Uld the
publllhertr liked me.
TO:. I bt:i.
Klut 1 sot .toTlf ""'" 0<11h !hem.
f(J: ~,...imdps--w~itt
l~' r:tw&, _,. uj.st W tooooofJ<"'"' did,_
""fM1.cll¥ ~,
IORal': W>: tud ;o kttera-.
TO:- ~Od U.. ~··· ~1"" Jbulio >enf'U,
wJridt _.,.,.. -.14 don U~rutntu;t
l(ldY: l ~ tool thelt I£UpD. DC would
~nd me oaiptJ, I'd throw thmo. out the
Tc.h Wll:f....,
JAMt
~ l do.n"tllle •fTY'lllng: th:at'~ cont~d. I
ronreloN., thq' conti"Tte. Ok?
TCJ: (~ ThaJ'• g.8
Klbl'; Tiuft why my OO.:.k ookl Ca.puln
Amerio wat. ,,.a).
W'hM> C'...ap111n ~
:~"')'<'fl. but tfyou d(ln't lm: ,..u, :1 bwyff, .,.,u'rc ifO!n~ to~ on the bottom of ~ot in\.0 • !l!j:ht with:>. dozen guyt, he could ln:k ~ guyf, ~nd anybody ...00
'»< plk re;u;llhe IJ,o.Qk o.n w:e how~ <lid ll
fCJ; Wk.. 1'1"" iJMhd f<1' ...0. j.. S...0.. d#J. J<l".....! M =>-Is- TCJ: Y6U .-tiJ A.uS" ltnm'r -*tnf .,.;m ,_ nt 1M Jttub.o7
KlU't. Y..s, "'" uutcd )OU>tly. liJia1l Ye~, I h:od • le<.t«er.
.....- "/ tM ftnmtcioJ. ~_,
fO: N-. ..,_, ,_ 1M tl>u, .,.,.. "PftnY'r~ ~ ~ TO:. 'M?.:..U.~J'<"'' lut•Jiw _,..,w,u ~...1 "'""'" ~ fm>dw-t
-- Uwtf-PN...-1~10 """*-"•lt>t ,;{~"" ~ w.p. l(lgl': I didn't thinlthat Wli:J'· We had uU,.tt '>'ho inked for~ .md >mo ie!ferrd for
KIU'f: Oh,- wHe """'"' afrt,. but I d.ldn't know how to do bwlnc"" I didn't m, but I W01't.ed on the Uone< myself.
~now where t.o ~gin to do l:>u:<mea- l"""l &1Ud from the L.ower E.sr;l: Sidf: TO 1M kn.m J-1 cf Si-.. .md &....,
lwod !1m! ~1
who'd nev<:r ..,en ala~. wlw:.'d n""'!'r d.me bwcineiS. 1 - from a famrlr that, 101151: Yes. Joe- the bw:iM-U Wk.
hle milhom o( othen, ....tl,(:re <knnt ~ w.u concerrted l - compktdr TC.I'. ~,... .. ltpt~ml>lfJ'
"-·
TCI: Hai. ~ mn- rlwtt.#}ol -f p>!f I<> !hi pt./,JiWn <H<d ~ '"W,o Wid toUr ...t U
101m': Ya,- wen:~ legitimate parm<!nhip.
KJ: ~ <JJ.uJ 1M ~·iod ~ ~ Klrr 11 ""-,.... _,.... -*ilof itt~ diJ.
won,Jo._,..,.u.,...,... .. ~~~~"'pratl-ail"1
We d<dn't know the nrue of it Dea:ul.eJ<:>e got the~ ~rtt l bern to
'Mj £* ,.,._.,• .W.<ttll6 IJI'Ti:<Ut 1-WI<l/ .....,l)u J«iaj ~ &!tt
!{11m'; ~ Vk pi~lled ;uound I blew Mort Mt"$bn ~ery ...-:ll. All the 1lrtllb lne1o e.Kh
kun about ~let (i~"""· Cono.lar ~ new and ~d~g ~ f.n.l. I w;u _j\4( olho>r. l w.u S<:H:ill With Joe, of counoe. We '>'ere very do.e.
il;C!I:i"l! paki& ?~" r.tU!. ro, Wirr r<"< <J/1 ~ a!Uio ""niut
ro, ~~ ..-lhafu..~.,... .. aki"'f'"ialilf"""'""1""'1MJr. _ . , _ _ K~ YH, -wen:~ Mth corruu. I re-rnemboor when I met am""' .,....nt
Jtt.rl ~rm,,. fi"""'
(XIgw mJ,7 out ..;thjoe :>.nd hit gnifriend. '&"""'"' I:II<Jn~ lh.em ID n.....
Squue,:>.nd lhe
~ Y~. I ~"l'''''f thu f.oa heo.wc I"""" !;trin!i~ 111 ~ monq. Don't~ cr.u::v thins d!out it,_ that !here- trouble m the~ ~nd ~~the )'OWlg
me wron11:- the more money the boob r=.de, the moJe money I ttt:ci¥ed. and I people didn't gWe :~.thmll.
v.r.u tCclinif gre:>.t. My pui'Jl'OIC' wu wm.t my bthorr'J po~ ...W, to""'~ &lMn!j: Td: »W tJ>.l. ..,..... 19#1, .,r,.,. -"""' ~,
>.nd to ha~ 1 f:>.mily. I ,.... g<lin~ !<l do the n,;bt thlng. My dream 1.0 ~..as 10 ROZ KIIISo': Whet\ l mctjuk. he uked me if I wanted ID gn 1o0 hls room an.d ~e<:: hil
ha...: money u:, :wpp<.>rt •t and to live Ito the lind of hot= !liked. etchin~. llnd I did. Sut imap;i~ my aurprUe when h~ re:>Jty did •how me
ro: DUJ ;sa-.."" J"" Utal tJw ,..~,...""""""""'"'for""""" .....tmr" ~1M etd>ingsl (L...u,-.u.i
"''""""""'IAmo,..,......,..<1!J<""""""*' l(lllll\': Ld"s face it, I -.r.u n.ther rut...:.
I didn't c~re. I couldn't com-e-1'1":' ofwhlll thq•"'"" doin! In lho&c ofiicet.l
1($;11'1': TCJ; /" ~ .ucd ....,_irtnS. (U.~J
couldn't cone~ of wrnki"( wu:h ;~.CCO\lnW'II:l. I couldn't CO<t.<:eitt ofworl.!ng 101tfW1 No, I ~ll·t rurivl: in nm>:>.tw:e. [L:riiJftln'l My ~h:>.no::tcr =~She
Socko W Seadoo( ..,th uJ~pk.l cooldn'lcO<Ke~ ofdUuibuUon. I couldn't con.::ritt of it h;ul about fi.-e boyfriends, and. one ..-a pi;;lno pl<iyer, and f «»ad !)(hind him
.-JA!>do.tl}ona ~I couldn't envWon iL !'.,., 11~ nm "l btniness, !'""' neY1:T run • big ~nd <aid, 'It OIOUld be tenible If the pi:wo lld doKd on )'U"'r fi"f"T'L Th•t woukl
drif", 1ry -TMdJ• t;t..,J b<ninen, :md comio"""""' &mwin~ fait. be p:aJnfllllYlluldn'L itr I .aid, 'You belonK in HollyM<:>od, out~ you pbJ' too
•TtJ CN)I. • fr- tb fCj,Did,....~tJv~r wdl." And he toek the hlnt..
w,u.w.. KtR!I'I': N<:>, I didn't rHem thettL In f&cr. I gt>1 :Uoog well with them.. W'hen I TOy,. ..m U. 81'1Jt111/p4 Ill lhu t'-r
JA802
Case 11-3333, Document
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Document 66-11 509514, Page32 Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 31710 of 16
!<l1'm': v~''-
ra IW.... did""' - fr- <!!f 1 - Htut SUU 11 B"mllil~ 1
~~~I w:u bc~n.mg to =tk rnonq. Broollyn wn ![l"<l~
Brighton Jl..es.:h - lf'"~r_
KJ' Wa..o rlu Si- o:md Kirt, ll<!dill '" MaM41.1n"'
IORIII': Ycl. It \QI m Tud<.>r Ci<"(
ro, Op u. rw ,....Ill !!.>h.l.l _,. 'f'N't •<>=1 !tfo ""'
k!ABV: w~'d go w the:.t.en- w~·d <N' mo>'ki_ w~ o.aw S!lmmr
IUy.
fd: W.,. J'ffl a mJi fo- aj "'f b<r..J "'"""~ f
KIIUW: No, o.u! tl';i..lly. Bu1 I fdt th~t....:.. the '"'"!~' 10 d.:! I too~
hn 1\o-ne~k. ndin&- ~ thlft! l'd 11ever dofle- m my Hfe.l
Uo"U!t~d w pre>'~""
toh.,.-dut! rod a lotol~ I,.....~
>tflcu-.,_ I W>Jnt.ed R0<:1lind, and ( w:u !0'11-8 to- do anythu>f to
tn~lu: hu rny pt-rmancm 1:1;11:>-e I brn<!~ht 1iding b<wtl and '-nt
ho<.-obuk. rtd"'!'l• .o..nd I~~ fdl uff.; hut""

P.Ol ~ H~ !!{)( !J><,"" h<>na: th..-t -re olow-
l<lUl': We g<>< wme ..,.--y ~ hemet. l r..-,~~rn-1 I ~r -nt
ri<ling ap>n_ I - t..rnble ~~ ii-
TCJ: Dull""" r;n <f<=:n<(7
IW'IITo y~_.h,- <b.oc~ prcuy wdt w., .....-.-.., ~.,...u~
1101 Kill:lff: Th"" 1w: ....u tk>.hed.
WAR YEARS
llli!!Y! I wa dr.lf1ed Ill <h~ l.:ote •ummn of '4~ I Inined tn
Ge-<xva ~fld ther"......., """ Pit w-.tiiJog in 1h" ,,.,;odie of 1he
'~"
TCJ: Y""' ,__. i». lilt An<J~ ritfu1
KIR8'I': I~ in the camb;u lnfam:ry. I Wt!:nt to Uvetpool firtt.
Tium ther ->htpp-«1 Ul w So.uWmf>!nn, whlch it th" port of
cmOOhtioo. fur Normandy. I 11ot to Norm~ndy t.en cl:oYI ;oJ=
th" mvao-n, All the ~on th:lt hlntlin!""""' ttill 4ying dlett.
TCJ' Du/ Jl"' IUNVIf ~" n7U <if~ larnli"f aa/f.11
!(IU'I': Ya I unw:d on ;m l.ST. When I &ot th<:-f~, they we.-~
byi~ in he::tp<~.
l(J: K1o.ol t-d. JuJ ,.,.._l=d ""'
MlilM, Onah1.
ra: I>iJ ,.... w...t ,_ ~ ~¥ .m.~r
IOMV: l fll;llted i 1o<OUid, but I didn'! know w~n. I....,. ;o.
married ta2J\_ 'Jbat'l why I didn't get dn.f!t!:d e;u-lter_ Tile cr:uy
p?.rt about ft wu I got dnft.e-d ::t( ~80 LefifigtOil Ave. - th;u't
where DC~
10: [l~) 1puuJ<><~=ddwylh4lJO'II' ,.,-,~.af!Ld~
Jf""' Jii J<l<' I<Jb A""J lofd
KlfS'I': I dldfl't II~ Arm:rlifto, t dldn't li~ Utk:lng Ofdtn, I didn't
!tl<.e discipline. I didD't liU bd:nfJ"'lled ::tl.- You'd get t"n ye:uJ
fot puu.:hing ::t ..,-geantoo I coukln'l punch a ~~--Ull
To:EutJ<"'~~.ot.
KlRrfl No, I kqlt m:y tCrtlf""T. By th.: dmc I 1aw the C.,rm~ I
an tdl y;.', boof, I ...a:o: ~IJ k>J>1'Y. !let it :I-ll !oc.se.
lC-" l:W .,._ Ma u. lhf us. btf,./Ju fMU mUt<r
K!U'I: I cam" home from the hrnpibll. I lu.d tt'fflch foot- I
JA803
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31711 of 16
>kpt out m the !(<lrl><tgt '" "'"'~ "' m thill 'WtJ llwn mY""' mp.n.eto "-"''*--- Dul. yau fulth<lt J<m cm..U
""""'for""' Jmlm'J a wmt rttiii-liU ot'J in 1M1 auwbi'W'"Phitnl <lnryl
moudn; ~nd 1! K!llll1: Y,.,, ! wu!d, I would <lrnw that City e:.:a~tly,. a WM. I t<:t!l"mbu it aa.::dy u
you skep out in il w.u, brick: by bndc The gllfbage m \he <tnN and the lhing1 flm~.(Jng down to
th~ snow th;Jt tht ~e=r, the people •itting around a !amppon late at mght oonveaing in th6r
ltmg. \lWM uwn ]Jnguage!l Then~ WO<ild he r,randmothers, there would he mmhen v.ith
wid mud, wid 'ket~h,er. on th~m, and ~h~wl~ and dl<:ap dr,;>ei. lllt!e mtght !}t, a few <Ad men,
Ill""'· ~old wind g;<<ul!lfatherly type~. Your father w:u alwaY' playing on:l! loln<'Where m wme
!I w:~s Lu\d. So my hntld;ng wtth a gro\er
kl}l bname hke "tting Mound wHh the netghbon. £~ry fall•e• """'hi• own Uta:11. He dld wh::~t he
~kpham kg~ and w,,med, lf y<>ut molltn went !hopping, your father never wen\ With her- {l~ wu
!hN<:'W<'U[U)"' ;,w~y "orking. I d•ink fathen go~ lt"'d 10 the way of life when they ;urodated
in the amlmlance with other men who wmk~d m the fattOrlM,, and wh!"n th..y cam~ home, that't
who<e iep !UIO<'d 1he kind of <ummnding they felt familiar wiHt.
hbdc My kg' TO; NM<J, wMn 1'"' _,t J,aut~~g mpnittwtl ilk£ Caplam 1\.mtrim ~rnlthtFantMtic Fmn;
wne a d..-ep d{d ~au["'/ fflllt pu wuldn 'I p~t tluu lUnd eflivi:ng Jdail in tk tyf'l of !<lerm ,.,.-. wru
pulpk- The gu)" ttiiing1 Could;~')" not ronunt.-.ll..- un chn.mdn a. J"" d!d m /}Ia{ outobiegmphiml rMry1
in lh<' amhubnte k!RIN: TI1ere w.u no time to do iL I had to work fut I would draw three paget a
who•~ l~• tutn<"d day, mayb<:' m<'ln'. ! wt>Uid have to vary 1he panel$, balance !.he page. I took. care
black, they fell of e'lt'Tything un that page-'"" <:xpreuiom of Ute chala<:ters, the motivation of
,jf_ I had p<.rple kgs! l won<k....,d how they w-en· I{Oing to th<: ch«mcte.-.- it all ran through my mind. I wrote my own !!ori~1- Nobody ever
£ur~ pmpk kg. I w;u ~nr<' a.~ helL I w-ll "''""'~h!e, I Wall wrote~ •tory for me. ltnld in every !lnty what w:u really inoide my .(ltlt. and it
came out that w;oy. My stories began to get noticed beca.ul<O !.he avernge 1e2der
TCJ' if""' <UJ .'1"" ful abotii!Jt},t'r ~<>Ph in~ingp>ur 11...-t1 W<>uld 'JOU- haw prift:md tu ink
POST-WAR ymn-wlf, ,- did 1""' ""/ am tJjln' 11 Wgmphical Jl<lry f of the •nl'.ers had a variety of Myles, and it ltind ofpk-a~ed me to $t:e my work
hn.w ro.r hM<m< ym In dt>, "SII-ui ()HjL " Why dW. you draw 11141, done in \';Uinwl ink sty!"'- The people who worked in comia w.:-re terri!i<: gu)"&> I
and whJ itmJ. J"" ~ro.r dornt ~na"/qlfiogwpiti«>l Jlmy/Jtfrn•1 had ~good aModation with them, and !enjoyed com<e5 for L'l>.t vo:ry r-eason.
KIRI'f. Thi• '' an e1<penment for me m t~u my noryu~llit>g TCJ, lA ...,. taJu up whm I kft a!f- Around 1945, wMn JllU gvt b<Odt fmm the war, f /)fflrtN
abditie•. At t:hat <lme, I mld what I knew. To be frank v.ith you m.=«<. jtw.~ partr!cnhip w.lh }« Sim<m.
you, I've nev<:f 'dd a lie to anyb<>dy. And whatl've drawn ~llliiY' I renewed my partner~~hip With Joe Simon, but joe didn't want to do couuu
"'"" alwa~ the trulh. II might be ~ V<:fJ, ""'fY Unt=k .my mme. That period ;~hazy to me
situatwn. Thi• rmght be~ r<"peat of what I might ha~e told TCI' m.u, """'"d 1945 I lhinl< pm did R<>f$' Ranch. Did 1"" dn 1M ,,..,.a beah unlit
you i)<,fore, hut I nevet lie. The ~ituation, C>'en .,IV TCJ: C.n JOti t<li mt A<>W ;~')" a:<I!U <l/lotll "'""ling IM lxtyr 'gm1tt - fk>y Comm~ndos,
Kmf!'f: Yr•- It "'ill have tM wund of truth m the right of tntth. And the ~hanKtc-111 BO)l3' R>nch~
will alwaY' a.;-t acco<ding to what tJa:y ;ue and wMt they would .-.~:o~Uy do in real KIRBY: E.!ential!y, they wen: ln~de me. The g;tng b<l$lnC$11 new:r k~ you. It wa&
either a gang or a dub. In drawing pe-ople by the bunch~. l would get a Yariety
ROl 1(/RilY: lfe ~ntll to lmowwhy you never did a $tl>ry ahnul yo.,rsdfnmll 1984, of pe-ople. A lot of tl!e other cartoonUt.<~ ""'n: wncentrating on one particub.r
KltUI'h l <lnn't think anybody would h:w<: i)<,Jieved it. So mauy things have penon and nuil<ing him acceptabk to the public wh<'Orta. I w<>uld diversify and do
h.•ppened tu me that they'd say tl ~u couldn't h:a""' happe-ned to one P""'""· grOUJ»<
\Vho w-ould thin!<. d>M I would be walking through Fre-nch town~ o~ m<'Oeling wilh TC.k J)id W"'l'U>l~ <Ui; yau I<> de lhai1
lh<' SS or French farm<"n? Whoever thought that I'd be going up 10 dte Snm.1<? KIR!Y: No, nobody ever .uk<:d me to do anything. Nobody knew what to do. When
Whoe-vt'r !hour:ht drat I'd be gomg to Btooklyn - I went to fu-ool<lyn ~nd met comin wen: hrnnd new, nobody knew what kind of cnmi01 m make. So you were
Rot-. That's where I met my W>fe. Let me uy this: Moot of the guY'- who lived on mo~dy on your own.
d'" Lost Side nayed there. It hnam<O oan of th<Om. But for wme reawn that I TCJ: Did;~')" ((,muptw./i:u Boyt' R::~och and then ojft'r ill~> a p~l
c:m't understand, I hated the E.a5t Side, I hated being poor. I hated to fight ~II ROZ KIIIJY: joe did that.
the time jl-l!it to <'njoy my day. Fighting wasn't the kind of thing that I enjoyed, but !Clll&'li Ye~h. Her memory is wmetimes better than mine.
I g:rew tu enjoy it be(au•e l did it ro ltmg. TCJ: Did J"" 1lfrih BO)l3' Ranch as wt/11
TCJ: On~ of the lhfflg.< thai{""'-' w ~td with in that Jtary -wa.f J')"T tibiliiJ I~ ron""] K!IIB'Ii Y.,. I wrote /1try' Rmtdo. ! aiWll)" wrote my stripll.
!"" rommrmplau. Thi <Irati W<f$ g;nW/ry- J<'" oould aimrul J~:l tM din and rmlii/A6 TC1: H= did 11m wlialJot-tm wiih Jru: Sinum! What did you do and rd!at did M dl!1
JA804
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31712 of 16
THE MARCH Of PR06Rf55 IS

MADE BY THE Wtlt. OF MEN .. . BUT
WfllfUl MEN CAN At.SO HALT IT/
WHEN THAT HAPPENS, PEACE AH0
ORVfR ARE FORGOTTEN AND R1Ft5
ROAR l"f THE WESTERN AIR.
KfQ't. f<J~did • kri o( the burl~- I-I ltd I nayM II Joo:'t •>de al! thr~
ClAY DUNCAN 15 MADE A U. S.
IMR5HAL AND DANDY; WASA5Jf
Hr<K whokjoo: '¥""'"d, """'tl h~..., """"'r ~otlt"n •nr P~!tt.od<Xlf': w~ AND ANSEL FOUON HlM INTO
gotm <'>Ilk~ in T~ C.ty-! wothd ,.,u,.,
otfi<:c ••nh :>. ~Uttrr, THe VEADtlfST TROUBlE TtQS
Hu""'-rd l'~"((l'QI'I- Who.:cn How:ard p-'~ •"<ly, there w:u 1notha SIDE OF BOYS' RANCH.'
lctl«tt to tep!;o<:e 111f11 l&n o.fuj_ J~ <tid a !M of ln!Q.,g, U>d he
worW when he mukl, but buun.,-a b.1d 10 be June ..-io.h the
pttb!ldttr. Jot: !t •n omp-.-.~ !t'-'1· ;md he fdltfut lh~ w.u hill
funoion, «nd tlu;t"• !KI'IOI he hearne g<l<>nt~ _U_JI;)('c and I g<:tt do~vety w<-11. !t ..-:l.i '"'Y·

'"'Y ma.ngc hr P"opk K> dilffffflt ptrrrinlly to ~olW:>onu so d"'elr
jot: • 6' I", a l>'l!. fUY :oftd<juil-<' <hffe.enl tha-n l ~m. B.~tj<}('"t .-J.-.1 .....u
rul.,. commerrul ;ut, Thu't the fldd he ume hunt.ju.e wu a wU~!>"
m""- He'• got • fin.<: mhtd. Of co uno:-. :Uttr""" come b:od. ..f~<Cr the
w...-,Jue ~~ted to cammcrrial an.
TO: C..,.,... e~f4u" lw-w J"" J~ 1.1... '"""'"" g...n'
~ fom;U\1;<" genrr """-' :ill u<>un<l m_
l(IRli'I'J n.,,.,
wa. Lo...:-..w.--y
pulP", Uld t.hn-e,.,.. l<~<>tf ""ctioru in th" noewiP"(J<:fl- rhNf': W;l;l
lowo ..:oOO in W ~ When:ft"t" you """nt thcr" """){,..., >IOriMI
"TI>a<'• how"""~~ ou.- """'" ma=u!, and It :ruddcnly wudr. "'"' that
Lhat'• wh:u- h:r;o.,n"l do,.,..,, W., h~""n'tdo....., any rom;._nc., Ronnl
There it..-... r~t in front of oor e-yet hvlgin11: from o.he n....s.•und, A
J.we tto.-yl A rnnunc~ ili>ryl $(}Joe md f ut dawn nne night~
nun.~ up ..-ilh th" title, Y"""K n-u, ~nd y,.,,.,_
Ro..... .. ..-..:M. out.
n:j, Winllol jM lww- gvrw 1<1 a~ .nwJ ·~ ~ .... .u lo d<J a ,_..,""'
'~"'if. .. a,.,..
p.y w- for 111" Or -..ld _,.,.. a<l.wJ/op a. lAo'"'''" atU u.-
•"->lu.<~~t
t:l!t:l"l': Wt:. dod n bnl.h _,.._We did it :Q it-l6r1nhk. W., did it» the
li(U:ll\<m 1<'0<C'. We did it ill th.e wa-,.
you mentioned_ We'd go up
togeth.,..., '<lme!irne.: jtm o"" ofu:.. SotM"dmet:, In or<kr to wn"""'"
th" publithd, I'd dnw up thr p<e$6lt.,im~ P"&"- I'd dn .. "1' thrre or
few' pages. ....t thct> the publiJher wo-uld ge-t the ~of U,., ltind of
thin[""' tl'tl<: trying to Ylt Then we'd eit.h.er ~ up tog"th"" =joe
w.:>ukluy, "Finbh up that p;oge, ru ~;o up and bllk to them ~nd you
""'et m., then=.." I'd meet hin~.lhete Mth th;. futllhed ~e 1nd we'd
•how tlttm wl'not wo:- were tr-,;n! 10 auompfuh.
TO; AI WI.~ 1"" - td/J bti.fl( pail. boJ 1~ f'dct.-
Mll':a'l': 'r'nh,..., had a p;>ge r..t<e. &.--11 cOI:IlK,t; l>ot&o t-i • <hfk.-cnt P"~
"'""- Tt>crewetm't"""?- Muvdwam't....:nine~-!.het"'"""'
Tun<:t,;Afuat_ ..
k!Uf. Narion.J oou there. J~ Lielxa;it;t;-. wll the heo>d Q{ the

urf;:>.ll-il<ltion. Wr o:alked to him. I kncot- JKk Uebo-Mu wrll, bUill ;o.
young bay. Jack lidoowitz"""' "- fme nkl ~ ~nd hf': u-e1f'Od me ""1"1>
very ......,Q. If you__,., 10 ull< to" ro<'ll! tdloo<, you'd try to~ f.ltJ>e-rtr
ll.nd f.-kndly, :lfldjad -...,u tik., th-aL llu:vo:: ""Tf fond memorlell o{
ulk.ing to M~:.lXbmritz."" r called hlnoo. rd mow hlln the ~<o:ort:. tlu.t
we'r~ doill( and the lind of thin! tlut -.:'d ~ dotng.
TCJ:M,-~W'Sfh,f~~--ltd~,.,
"""'Ya.""" did horror,- did

IQijN: W~
Ttl Did,- nw h Mmw' I~,.,.. .uJ. •~
klRIJt'> I d!d 11 couple ot morutcT 1t0ria.
Tc.IJ ~ltlt.u.<~>Lt.Lw 'Jfhr-f,./M/(Jill'<l()r, fd..~lhi'MJO!<n...-did
JA805
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31713 of 16
;.;zmm;-:m=~---..-------------~-----------~-----
""" a<AAJU, f>1'b(W. 1},,..1

K<UY· y.,., ...., >U<l<l.ll}o publ,hod them fhe whok t~ouble w:u ,.-., w~re
~...,., y,. w., did Weoruno "ndrtt>p>Uhrcd. We p<tbliWd for .l!ule wh>k<, but- dodn'< r.et m::my luY~•
•nd romJonce ~n<l !(an~tn
""'-
f(J;D-lj<lf hl<ndlt <>fllhf l>w.nnn> "-'f'HI' nuA .u Wtnb,4onl
Td: Do r~" ~ uoh-J J<'" ~lltftl'; W~ ix>th
dod, ;md tlut'• h-uw [ hcg;ullO l"un :dXJ<<l it But)<><' woookl
,-/uln-tr;rt"'"'~'IV"rit tunrlk h s lot """'" ;>.d<'pt/y 1tun I did
!hat 1""' .iod~'t hnw ~"
ulfin•? }<tt h<ttrrwr ~tU't !k>!h <Jf"' deode-d 1f !he olher ptthlUh,--,: ro-uh1 rnsk<: !T)<)r><:y u it, \<h)"
•~ No, I rltdn't hn.. an wen-"'" fudin~ Ihem? And~ were right. We lud good .,.,ff, ~nd we~
.llTintty f.,.- hurror !le>l I n\01<-N.!In-e, ~oo why not doH f(Jr .,,.,-..,Jve• H w~ll :u fOI' tioe publ>d-.n•.
k"""' thu. commtinall~. ll T(J: If-~"/! ,J,rf IJu <O"'f><l"J lrut1
w-,u Vlible- That'• why w<: i(j!in': '-.lot!<)<) k>ng. A ~ouple of ;.,ue!l
both l'in:olly rlid It TO: ( tltln' rm< puh&h«i f"-"' L<oiN
ro: r....
Jill. -miin"f .;,,u. i(jRI'I':.~oooethl~ h.ke th~I-
""'' ,.,.~q ""'" ~~- ""'"' TG lt-"01 .1& I""" /~"'A tlu '~"'/ian' fo>kdl
!(l~l'r No,'# clk!n't rio ~ti!SV: w., -.--e underupioW-"<1, :r.nd..,... ju<t u:ruldn't COf\Unue. We rcw iuw .tlot
horror m the """"" of of bul lud. Wefllr~m g•-.e ~~~ ~om.u lnd p.-eu,,., I! cut )'our ~udl<:flce down.
h>U-tll<'d houoet or pn>pk l'cople wcr~ ~fra.WJ w be 'ccn w;,h ~ comk k!l they!)(' bheled at lc~ inrellertu:o.l
'"'h m~•k• ~ ""~Y \'"" 1h•n th" next fe-llow who w:u rnrlmg deep booU.
nugh• """ th.,.., u,-b:r. T(J: in t.lu.1 <u"''" S<nnge Workl <Jf'iour !Xe~nu. lftn.) <t ,~,,tAl# l<IJf "F.,.-
l<>mNh;...~ lutlun« m ;on .ha•n4i>"'""" '""'/p:u &y Ru~~rd U,.fh "Wu tJw-.o rm/ry" RJrMttl TI!Mpkt
,.,,.,mom Oar otoriel wne KIRlm No. on..re ....-;uno Rithud Teinple, It""'-' a!""" n~rne, We h::W to
more hke f><Oas=~ "\linK tl\;o.ntda.:ture m =ure roonp;>.nr.
ar<lund a fore. We had <he TCJ: tDw ~ppamtioj hirt<l. "'"" propb l!lr.t MoH MnAm, WI <N u u, hffl-- Di<J J<N1 d<> W
TM Sir!!np W>riJ of}""' hm,(T
n......._ Oun didn't nm to ~~ w~ huo.h dod. We 00\h <lid """')'lhing.] ""'m the off=. I thillk. m=e th""
blt><;.dy hm<or. Ouu •m w J.•~ I .-ltd ~lot of hi<int •nd ~ to-1 of bu•lnu>: with the other •rtiw. Mort M<:•kin
~dnt':tl_ We bcJan 10 w~1 • llne onnt. ;md h<'= hclp<'fr>l"" ariUI arui , _ 1'7'<
ll:~membfi', Joe ~nd I """""'
wl~e du."'c~. We J:IQY: y.,.,, l did. Life hcpn 10 hr=rlen • hit. ] -.. gr..,.,.;ng, ""'-<f 1 w:u karning
,.,..,,.,,.,guy.: th;>.t"""r" b..r11 tww to do busm~.
•h<: W<:lrrl ;md th" biu.rr" \.'k -re th" k.<nd TCt £H ~" Mlp~ li> "'""""""" """1 -"'" d>li'Ine Stun iF World ofV<)Itt 0r=nll1
of ~y. who ""'uldn't <>ffentl ow- mol.hn, who KJm: firn nf.ul, nobody ha(fend anyon.e in ynur f•nnly, ~nd con,.,nolon.:ol world doat In: h.,,J "'· ,..., honur wotlid n.,...,r ha..., bren ~ce-pu:d
<:<ruinly not the r~r. 5Q ~ knew that we W,; on-.ght not h<l-..e gut ten on !he nt'WDUUl.ch. The newnt.;~nd w;u still 1elling
h>d to okp:ut frum ~ltu<e ;o.nd tlutthe•e •n;r.ga.tm-e'J heing p-ut out h)' Dell. whi-ch -.-1 a nne wmp..ny. b-ut they we-re a.JJ
""'" <>tffi!r....., <0 go. and ,..., ~e up wuh wnvenrimu.J. We h..d to~ ""thin Uut circle jwt for preniR""' Ake. Thrywcre
fu SU..tttt Wffld <>/ y,..,. o--.. <>ll ptntigJotU comp~n~- So to gain tha.t ume p.-e<ti~. we prin~ed >toria wilbi~:r
TO: lllai.futt """'<1 Stnng:e World of Your <hat ume fr.>m<:t<'Ort, H;od we <lone •tr.r.l~ht ho.--ro.- ~~ th~t tlroe, it wtltJid luve
Dn:;mu -tAu "'publ.Ulwd fry f'riu.. h<:en 1n ~dol"'<:<:flt rnc...,, lct me put it that """Y-
l(lltro" Tha.t w:u our own tornp:my. [KI..., TCJ: £H yau u-,W,., sf»'Jirt>J!y h<tW _I'Ctt ,_,I w><dt'J'>
m<tJh.tt:ar<~PriuPo.hli~...U.: KIRllr: Thlngl jtiSl ""'ot bail. Th"y jU:&I 10'eflt balL You come to~ !><>lnt where YQtJ
s;......, ~"" Kirt<J's ~.., Mm.W'"" ~-I ~ay, -Wt: cm't IDle ~nr mwe. Lct'• go b-itck to m:U.ing KJme- nwn.ey."
TCJ: C.., J""< ~" MoP,..,. .Urud ,_,.. m...-
TCt. Yw fn'IJ.'"""" ,.,..,,u, iih/,.,.,., '"'" •nil _rmr nl<a p~hlili><'rf. 4 ttt~~tle
Ml.flt ~- ....u u ,_,~y p. .w-.r ~ Ga.njpter:o w-ere ~ hJ! oh-in[!: then_
10nw.t think it .otartcd ... m the TO: Do#,.... ,.,.;ua 1« n[lkur
r~e 1tulf. It w;u mottly Joe 10~] wrQ-l.e most of them.
bc:.::wse he ...-u mo..., lrnowl.rlge:..ble TCJ: N-.)a&. Jii ~"'" ~It tht lf""J,- "J Klu" ('...,....Q,. r'.irl for ll'"""= &ma, fu.. ·r
>bout !.wyen unl 'oPJ'Iillhll :r.nd klllt'>':Y.,,I di<:I-IL.al<f!'ourf
thing:a lllu: tha.t TCJ: Sma ]<'It ,_w for J<"'-'llif, :-tiffin "I"'- II> tivr IN <lrl to a p.WI~ 0~""'
TCJ: J.\.?t.tnJi4,.,..¢U..~10id iom.•<V<J >4>...11<tt hap}'c>l<1 ~ rU1 Woo<'fiMI cnr
Yu""' Romaooo -IIJ <-: 1947.
JA806
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31714 of 16
l! I I
I'
,IRM' (AJ.J, I •l<>l\'t ~I>OW.
ROZ ~l!!ll'l' W<" huJ • W of 1M rom~ncc pa~e< :1.t1d Joe li~d ''-""~
tOflUll(<'. And I ~H~ fr.>gt't /)~,~-to ><>mc:on~ to r~mrn boa<k to the
•udwn.
tCJ: I >lnokrii<~M __ arlu<lifJ "''~""W" ~ UliW My lJ-~Ie
~1~5'1' y.,._ M, D<>tr..ru the np<'rl door loth,- rorn~ru;., O.Oob. It'"""
rhen th~t It hl\ Ul- Af~er""" publ .. hed It+, D=, It wd<:lt"nly <>ccurr~d
ttl m<: •lu.! we"""'" "''""'K the tag thong. Rom.on<.e ...-.._ ma~Jnl!" .UI
the ,.._onry. M1 D.,,., w:u mo.-e o< ~ te~n-~~ book ~young people
d~ting- gorl<, df<Jtlplnil{ K''h. lf'>ll'linK girlt
TO: y.,.. d;J lh.t J~r 1/ol!:-m
TU Who""'-' Hr/1"'"" r
l<llt&'l! Hollman .a< .muth~r f>1>blhhing outfh, and tf I reow:m~r
con-udy,- diU qwt"' a k"' !lung. for •hem
ror_ 1<1~8-Y· <;,-,m<"ohtng ~ha<>t ""' •lhjp<nrl
I<Jia'l\ Srmtethlng the ;,Jh~mf. ~bom • r~ ~Hig;uor. h wu • funny
allig~r. l forget what tlte h<:ck ha naffi<' WiUI [l-*J~"" t1u .{/lit»l,.)
It w:u a ulinc-.J ariMn •botH CharlJ.., Chiplm >-1 an •lhg;:tto<-
TCJ: }""dJdlha.ljarHill-...-r
~IR!J)', I thmk ot wu lor H!llnun
Tl:J: H-1tu1""'-r lftll...-1 f'uM,},mrl
KIRBY> CJnrwo<>d w.u 1 pol>ltlhlnr, hou.e 1ha1 Jooe and I W<>rtetl for,
Remembc-1-. <Ofll!U """'" ~mmng to m~lc..: a lot of moner, and
<here w~re n~w puhlt.hong h.oW<:• hcing hom. md :. lot uf <hem
raded ~...,.y, hk~ Vtnor Fo"
TCJ; vm-~ IMr•l>diM-' woo"'"'~'""'"' r<>-'* frw. ar..,.,... llr.., ali I~'~UJ
~ll!;l'r. The idn w.u m m~h ;u rnuch moo~ OJ )'<>U could, ~nd we
ui~d to wu.-11; for the romp~n•~• •hat wtte paylnf: th"' mo.~. Of
course. Joe "-"td I felt that ,n., w•y to nuke the rn<~>t monq,..... to
put out your <Jwn bo<!l<,, and we tri"d tht.t but,.., didn't h~~" tluo
capit:llto ""coin th~.m. ~lthn<1gh ...-e ho.d V"fY good titl~ Rtd """1
good notiea.. But J'O" ntll had to P-'Y the P'P'l'- diltribu~nn ~nd
what not
TCJ: /"ndmktlld ~ ;.Mrld)'<"'T"""' <IJ"'f<lnJ U>l!tJA:Im>tli~~ Gnur:t '"
1951/
KllllY> Ye-s, w"' dod,
TCJ: ~II>OUA"'trir-~" &!-Jf 0HniaJ !Li»>unK= """'<}
~llm'i Yeah, I did t.hO>l wi<h _}of,.
TCJ: Tlu.< urp ·.w,,. ~rtd &!ry. to:I'IWn- <rnd ar/Ws, • .,_,w 1M .uldnn i1
17908r~1- Butlltt<~«1JJI'n::u:Pt.bfiatli<>tU~
.OZ Kl~ A lot of them u<t:'d dlffu~nt namn-
JOU'r. Ye~h, that .a:~ moth <'I' COII>pmy. Moat of them faded. They
~lw lud t;U: problem•, thinp hke tlut. They WO\lld bruk thelr
comp;onJ..-. into four or ft., •"'Sf" en Is.
K/: H-d<d ~ f><d>iuNdhull "t'fin.tl ='lia in IJu ~ ::i(l$ ~JM'r
tam': It d>dn't ;dfea me at all. 1..-.., a poor 00,. IIULn! """lll!T·
TO: ~ ...u ,_.- fMl"t' <>!mol U...t =1!u tt-t
IUJ;tY< I ignoo-ed them. !ln.,.... the srnff ltr.os doing WaJ dono: well,
md th.ot I c0t1ld ....-ite "-' ~u u my <Xh.er guy. And! did.. I knew rhar
Joe wu a good btnin=mw, l ~ f::Lirly g<XI<f in bultncu.. [ wu
growill! up wl~h Joe. Remcmi:J.!,r,J"""' ..-.u older, •nd Joe kn.;:.t 1 lot
more tri<:lo::J ilun I dkl. So I rn:,pn 1n learn !he uicb nfth" burl~. 111<! Str-larWorld f>ly.,...n.- tl"""""" I~Jl.
JA807
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31715 of 16
RO! KlJ;*1: lh;.["o "'Mu )'I>U "'ent !lY~f to "Cb,;w: Co"'-'<"-'." [ Cfruric> Jlh..Jt'llrn/J
~tlal- Ynh. Jcc md ! opht up. I d>d "Cl:uot><: (\>m~e..s.- lnd th~y d;dn't hke the ""'T
!OIUr'l': v,.,, i~ ,,.... • ~Dnarn In b.a. tt wu ~ <Oncnn to ~u ~ p-ubhohen t folrlttt 0<"<>p3tn'l ol!rt. h ~ mn hr pcrl'nctiOI\ttU, utd I""" n<)( Ute !"T 10
R<'m~tnbt!t th;>t comic t>Oot.o dtdn't ~"JOY tl><!- ~:>.me ptM~ *l.. uy, <.:o/Jun "''-"lfo< )>"tfe.:.wmllots, oo I k:ft roon Mter. I coilldn't M thO! fllny or th~t p<:rfcct
"'3~,...,..,. '" 1714 ."><.w•<i<r; ll"t<etune hu. 1, \l>e '')(}f, <f rou ""'"' J £.-,"'! 1tnl, thq'd uy." l"hne ~""'"~good Nn.r,nclll. · U )'<'U 1!t •lf n h;>d to mMh to mU.e •nr uiM
hoa~t;ht :.. nnnl< bot1k --- "Th~t guy. M th.<><>l:l poo~: Of cou•""· IX W~rthun dtdn't TCJ: n - did,.,,., frrJ abo~l W .<;m,u Subm•wufln ""'""!'' DU; I""< thU thdl ,..._.. •
hnp my. w~ ""' ""'r buJ P'""'- Cm:nk h<1<1lt ..eren't '""....U,t'fi'l-·- ,.,..u, tt'• kk.c ""'dt·A~JOJ, Mdul1"" t.Oo....l: rlun -.c ""' txWdil1 1o> IN pu/1/u'• ~1
tradl TV,.. !l)(!~y. r.-~•h rv will ptol>.>.lli)' t<:-.odt." pouu whete ,~·, '<'ery u-..epuble. ~l'f: I dkln't fed O<'le wa-r 01' >rw<her ~bout u. I w;u only hop>ng !.h~t <t wou.ld
come o><tl ,.ell enou~h to connnue com10, th.t h wouldn't d>m>.j{(' com.tcs in Uly
w~y. w I could ~<>ntmue worku>g. I """~ youo~ tnlln. I""'' utll gnrwi"ll: o:>Ut of the
f:~t Side. The only rnl poliuu I k11ew wa<~ tl...u If~ guy ht.ed Hitl,_.., I'd beat t~
>tuffinK out of h>m, ~nd th•t wnuld b.. tt
TCJ:: IVrn- )""' -:1 pMti<411
~IRrf> 1-n't th.m. I wu ""'Y n.m~emed with (omkl. I'm polititll nDOO. I knew
tha """'"- tlu.t e'I"Cryb<>dy...,.ed o~rnocnot down m1 ,.~,.. Uyou """"' ~-'<"''• yvu
''"ed 0=t.l)(f~l. ~nd if)'"''..,. • .,. rich, J'l'l H><ed IV-pubUun
rc" H,.,t4tl"*fld4Mtl ...- .... u., u.mr
lOll~ Oh, communt.:ml Tlut.t...,.. a burnmt inu(o. h wu m O'tlO'"'!et>Ul ouue. T<>
he 1err;1.ed l commurwot """"ld d;un~g,. ynur 1o1hok ~ily, <hm;ol'= )'OUr whok
W<:>r!d -rour bicmb wouldn'l t:olk to )'011. I'm ~<>tkin!:' ;iliom othrr ~).,
t.era•ue l wouldn't go ncu tf>t! Jtuff. Sure, I~ ~trul the Rech. IIH:cl<ne a
Wltd>-huoter. My en<:mtes were the commie:~ - I o.lkd them comm~
l(J, Mdl....,. iJ .. bot.u <»•-"""" IM1,.,... d.J.n 'f Wu1
j(jllft'l': Wdl. it wu • r.uflcal rontept to me_ Uk.e ~ny o<h<:r An1nio.n.. I wun't
:<vplliWc:>ted enl\mgh to uady oil t(< f~!L All I kr>ew about it ....-u., it~ f<>fciJn
w democracy. And here I wu. I h~d been foshtm< tOr tkmocw:y :u1d a I'")'I
~w.ue o( two p<:>litlol putin •nd brought up in th:tt kind of aun<:>~phue.
Anythm~~: r.u:Lio;..-1 ,..... d;u>~aous to rue. ull ~ to 1he ~~ AmericUI. Nobody
knew ...-het""e a thin~~: ltke 1ha1 ....,..ld lud md we we~ ..Jw:aj<t ~lod of dl..:a. So
rmnmlUll.ll'n beum~ the doorw;r.y to ch.tot, and the door..,.y\0 chaM wu 1he
d()Of'-y to evil Your furnily mtght be hun. Your friend< mtgh( t,., hurt. Y01.1
dtdn't ..-ant 10 Jee a thtns hke tlut.
TQ H- did .1"'0' lth: Mrc-O.,t
IQISY: I dkln'l nu MtC.nttry. I didn't lite hU mco.hodo. lliUd thll! othef fclloow-
hew» a !"')'-hatred m:u1 froro. M;UI'>C,I t.et;,...,. He"''~ ~cD.rthy md
chatl~ed l>lm. Viltllh W4' hi> name.
TU War !wIN .nu ,.._ <UUW M~ •f iii ltdtf t~o """"-'
llllrf: Yet. He JO<tnded JogK:&l to""'· mon, te:mpa;o.re. You didn't feel like lhe
oto~m 1roope~ """'~ JI:OinJI: IO knock on _)'OU>' door the nat <by ><hen you lUte ned
<<> !.hl1w When yoou liAened 10 Mo;G;mhy, you knew dtey ...,,e g<>mg: to dt"afl:
y<>U aw:ay. 01' )'<'Ur paRntJ- McDrthy rounded like a th.reu, wd if you didn't fi~
crrt:l..in tpe:cino.tiDm ~• an Am~ -he bid down tlu: 'J>e'dflcalion.l, ht! bid
doiOTl \he n•le-J. llul;'1 wh:ot put the r~..,. into .....,.)'hodr, beCJ.t.U<: all of us are
..f=d &w we'"" not goin« to fit ce-rt>tin rule.L McCiU'Ihy putt he fe-at of the dniJ
into the ~nl.ire public When Wal:olh ~to Utlk, he b.epn \£1 rnUe :oen..,. He
t:olked n<>C o!n.etly lik-e • $Ul.em\;ln but 2 r111.lon.l hunu:m bcln~ M<:C:.nhy wu •
h<mteo:. M~C.nhr didn't eM~: wt1o he '<hot m the 'W'O<Ith. But he v.u gettiDp;
pre.~. He w.nted ..mt.c<hing, and he w:u goolnJI: I<> 'et il ilny~ hoe r:ouJd ~
if he rut row d011n1. W:ollh ~·t like thatat.U. ~bh oat a man who di'ICUDed
"'"'" >!fld wbo du<:U>led McCarthy'• <kme:o.nOI'. W..llh - ~ M who threw cold
waleJ' Oil Mceanhy, and rcminded him he""'' JIUia polll.lcian with jlllt the
~mblriomofa politician, ~d h e - lteYet" goin1 U> be • Hill=
TCk [., 19:14, :r- a.-d f"l(hting Ameria.n.
JA808
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31716 of 16
CHARITY BIZARRE! SHE

THROWS A LOT OF PARTIES
AND BENEFITS!9UTTHE ONLY
ONES WHO BENEFIT FROM HER
BENEFIT"S ARE. T"HE. ME.MSE.RS
OF HER COMMIE. OUTFrr!
laQV: Yet- F'<dtlinf; A~ wu th~ flNt ~~~mpt :u ntire in t:orun. I t - a .:.liTe WI: IOM'f'l n,., re.wn m.., •lriJ> didn't l:ut Ia bec....,...m., W!)o(>(j bro~ Upt
0 ( CapM 0,. A"'m"'" h ~ -.n~, vny funny. I mU !~!alb: on it to<hy fr<>m pmpk dinppe:;ning.
who p~<:k ·,r "P on OCOJIOO, and a's ~ s~nume Lluah· 10~ I couldn't~ the Wood htothen.l hOld to lf:mllhffi> I")Slctrdl.l had to
I'd: Did pu m]'>1 ii.Dirtf IJw, t.:q> in much wi!h lhdr modttr Thi!Soe guys~ n:a.utria.
!alla'f. Yeo, I did. I Itt~ ~ lf:ood tlmtc li)::., anyt.o.iy eW,. ft wu my u-y :U .~::~~tire. I fed ROl ~On.. &ot m tmt.lb~ ,..jffi the law.
th~t I'm •n ontell~ent per$0<1; I an ttandle it cCKrl',ll.y. And I did. I feh I krl.t-w fO, Did,.,.. -a, 7Wd tA. ~ ~,
,..ur~ and thai'• hoo. 'n cune out. That'• hot< 1 ~ot INubtehea<kt-. I g01: Unck lORD': I nee&rl the Wood broWn; for 0... ltndic•te. Thu'• how- tH.pn ~~ th"
S;omur:o.l aut of !hat, a.nd I ~01 a Hunprt.n ailed C-OUnt Ytn<:lu Lilfso, h wu a .yndial.e. Wy u-ou'*
o.u thu I~ hHe to expbln lo the ~ •yndicau•
p.oriocl..t>en 1 re-illy ~d doing the com~e~. wh~t happelled 10 the WOO<!~ {~
TU: I rhmJ: Mmnli001 ""*'" uw..d t...... ymn ,_. '54 u, '56. K.hlndn~ ~a, ~milr
~y<"~_lJI<f I "'J, _,--., tUl<:i.tttapitalittd. Allhougb -nu<k money,""'
dhln't rruol;e enoogh mor"'1'
_.....,
~ Y...tl, M Ink~ ._ kw wed.!~ of them. [ m:..ci ift4tJ IJu Wip jw <JI ~til<~ In
rei: nw p;nnd -. ~ 6od for c-=. s.. ;r<1t< <=~Jo.o ,....<~ Am1t. ~..; TCJ'\4tu-~14-b.odrd<tttoiltJIA4~~f
-1.1'16 klllt'l'< No. I began to thi.nk ~fJ'OI\': wu ~ \\bod.
KlDV: Atvur>d "!.a In fact, th" ntrn.r compool'lkswen: hl"'nrtroubk b;IO. But they TCJ;/,.1="...u-, U..Th., F~ olComia, ilffjm~Di<i,D~tW, -.1. ~
could ....Wn llu:~ DC ~ouk11utWn thenucl.et ~tl$C of !.hdr da0k: ~..Jtid!,......U..~-
stuff. And Ma,.,.,J <:o..J!d .wain illelf. klm'> No. Dkk lltld o~..., ~ the Wood bro!Mra. Thq ,...,;e ..xtremdy ecantrk,
TO< Tiwn,.,.. ~ t1JilJo Wa!lJ ~""' 11 -~ $tJ'tf1 rott..:l Sky Murea. 10 dolUB: bti:<me. l<tth ~'">IS~ ro.•gb. It w;u oM of the: «:UO!ll th~t th"'
10~..,. SJc, M<UUn- a da.Itr. ;rrip dldn't ruc«:ed. 'The .mp w,u ffl"J. ><ery good. lr wu a.ccepted by 100
ROllO~ E""'r-yone males thit mitt.U.e. 'M>liJ' Wood bd IWI.hlng til do widl the n~~ whkh wu ._lot o( p;lpeR [u..,Q"f <U" Urif) As you can ~e, I did the
wiWx>ntion moon..,.lk rwo p n befon: NASA !<:nt th~ ~to thl't moon. I dkl it in~
lllm': It wor.uo't 'n'iliy Wood. f colbbor.tlfii wlth l:""l guy. -me Wood brothc-n:. ~rkn.la .-cin. They ....:m: wh.ltl! c~ O'l't"T (h'""'"- bu( thil ts what thq wore
Td: WaRy Ku...i h~td noilu"f b:J .W ..,(4 tiT <.>ndernc:alh. So I did it conea/y. Of couae, you can~ Wally W<>od'• lnflo=ce.
kliSV: He lud nothln& 10 do '<llh k The Wood brothen lived in N<:w Jetxy. I TC.I< WM ctJbwrtllhi.Jr /1'1 rrnHJ niu.
,:ouldn't r=ch tM Wood bro1h~n- tht:y nld, "'Set.d [t to oor mother and <he'D ICllltY: I dld.
fot"W'afd it tt> u..« And rkol'l how we did buM-.._ S!nngcly ~rwugb, th~ •trip ROl.JOJ:fYXjack Jikt. to color. [~tli~pitall J..Ud thal
cune out v"'ry wcll. But~~ brothen kind ofbrob thlngt u:p. TCJ: Y"" .wr
TCJ<H...tlutJ<1U,.....Ilu~brcJtktnT lOIIIY> Yah. She !n.terllt.. She'• .-..ry good Ro~ il ooe o{ the ClncT in ken in !he
IOIISY:~'d meet up at pubfuhen' offko, pllC~""""""' 1 wocld hold <ilicuaiona. lidd.(~ .
Welu.d~~n. TCI:Did,romPJ"""*il*f-"~"ln/!1
JA809
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-12 509514, Page39 of
Filed 02/25/11 3171 of 16
Page
~- y..,,J dod_ I "'"joyed """'k..ortg on a"'

ltOfY- I'm ~nu;olt,- a uoqu-ner. You W'O<k~d fOf' them. I ,.J,....yo liked DC- thry "'"'"' faiT, which wu '""7" nn In
ruome the '"~• and l'!l g,.,.., l g<><:>d >tory on it. Th._!', why "'hen I nme bad wm;o.. (~Ju.r]
fm<n lh,o, wa.r, I o.lid Jom~ ""''~\oriel !Or DC And th")' did......,. wdl Th~ TO' W1lea. 1"" <n] llo"J ,_ jlrir- J1>U 1fiH did"-l fM U>"""' 1M Wi/n,.,., 11.---
mlg:u.o" .old. ROZ t3llt'f. ~ ~ th~ wen fak [Lau~
TCI: Dtd S\)""'"-'\CU Mwa .\"unh] f"1tt1 ~IRU 1\Jl right. I'll qtWify iL rn jUd AY that nobody m the field t-1 a con(n.l;t
K!l!S'f:Y~otdHJ_ from urrbodt"- An-d DC 'oQin't the only pubfuhin-s houK in the ficld. There w.u
Td1lf- /i>lttltld V...Urtfl "'"' ~~.u Timdy atld Ddl3nd t. lot of oWen.
~Ab<.>utt-...oynn. TCJ; 1Jw wl1, .U ih<>-1 tnou, IMJ ..-1 ,..,,,,.pf.irtt1'1" did. IAq t-J-" '- P.,. rat.-, W,
U... ~!Ufer! l-lrip ;,. '57_ A,..; I~ J<ll< ai.M O'«o! ..
TU: I />lfiroo 'f<lU u.md Ju;t-W~.vt.
Oullffij!:enof1h-e Unl<nownf"'Mm'm.Jm 'JR. S,'--dJJ,_,-~,.....u. IORJ'f: Yes-, ~did. But the lde2. wu the utiM U-llle fn>fTl. • poor~ of !he-
N4toi11Uli «>-<>b<n</1 D>J,-j.ul drop ':f W ~jim <inJ IMCfr-'*t cay .. I WOit 1-lJ.ppy becauu 1 rrut.de e!>Ough mooq 10 ~~:toe to my pwenu, I ma<k
Sky tr.luun of U..
~ Ye1. I fell N3tiO<Uill1•d -'"""Y' h.: en ~ THpe<:Uble hO<H<!, a prutige hrn-. i enoush money to get rnan-kd on. I ~e en-oua;h money to enjoy ""'~!fa httle
sf*"' F...-ee ttri; fr-
JJt,faU'm lil~d the f''"JP!.e who ~.-. the pbt:!:, llilu:d lhc p>.~blisher. llikcl the people who more oh•n I would hne ;{I didn't luw: enough rr><>ncy.
JA810
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-12 509514, Page40 of
Filed 02/25/11 3172 of 16
Page
ro, ~tJUi ,_ d<4l """' .. vn Did)'<l'ol h""'"" rJ;tM /Joar 1"" bait"""' Jrna!Jl'
m!IY: Thq h•d ~;o.l c-dlt<:>rl. I de>lll wtth Mon Wrloln!{n-,Julle &hwuu ~rtd TO:: Of Ml•U. lh• f'4m W 11 -ltd --.u m d<!mf ~
Murno.y Boltinoff, fAt tl.. b-. Kn-/ly .-ud ""''"~]eli Sduff. no~_,;.O.~tt.J Kllm': Yt::ll.
TU: r;,..,"""
di.llhlpl>il borl.....m IN <til'_, I Ditl t.luyluro..Uifonnt ~Wit roz lOUII! Aho, at tlut tit=,~ udR .._ md:lng hlt O""l deal Jlld. Pi<!, 'Wt'il.
!!lU'f: Thoy ...,-e d1ITU<:nt rerwnaH·tin cerbinly, btu they ""'re ;ill grut to grt I mW mO(" m<XU7 thlln tilelll.· E">...,-ybody un't m~~ th<! nm~.
llofll!wlth, Wt're lull g<><>d frk!ld.J.. Mon W.,U.nger il ~n<'. Whffl we 6rn mO'tl"11 ~1100\ lwa~ doin!t "f'efJ wdl- my boob ,.,..te lelll:ng. Wh.J,«::YQ' l dre-oo, sold.
w f'_.;tliff)n'lia. Matt~~~!« "''"'~ fQ Yblr Ul Tc.h IW<In.J<rU '"',.,.. """"'iUbtfM)' U>ti1, to4/ dou IAttJ rfltll>\1 lfllal-.~ JMp
ro: Mta.t hnd of..,,""'" lwr 1 ~ lw-.- .. ltYu[h r.m~ ·~urnW':50.cr
lnltl'l': t~.-yb<:>dy W1l.l a t<JU!h tukm:•.uu. Mort Kl#S't: ~to~ dolltn !01: a com~ p;a&e. h depended on who ynu
Wo>:isltl!!:ff wun'r :l pankulnly 111ugh wonted ((X"_ Some pUd leu. Some pMd ~-
taik.mutu. H., ..,.. crying to do an ..Jftor'l j<>b TO W"".ldU.,..;,d«dl:IAf,;ntintl
Comk1 hJ.""' a c.ute i}"td!l- m eilimr h111 ID maY: y.,._, l gut them "'ompkte p~~*· Joe would
let in. a <;e<b.in ""'Y• Jn utia hu to b<': ink it oc ornneone doe >roWd ink it.. t'd get
lnunt>IC', rlgh~) An uti:A ha. to be humhl.e. """""body to ink It, o.- I'd ink it mt'ldf. and l'd
an ~Jii<X" mUll~ offici<>W, and a p:ublhher set • ,erum unnum from the pubiW!en..
mun ~ w...........t.n" o-ut in U... plal<)' ~·l how il .,.,.. wit.h Clwll.;,lm I>{ W
~njoylnl( godhood. 1t 1n1 ~ (ute syJUm,
'"'"-
f.>U.-e md tlll'l~. And it"""' UcqJtc>J J.h;o,t TO; C= ,_ 1#/J..., ,_ Jfl' , _ ~ "'..W"«
w:ay Nobody thought of <Gnu-xu, nob<:Kiy Otlllknt;<'" (I( the Unlnown r
rhou~hr of inWtln«: on h<:ner <k111. KIIM't ~~JM u~~~-" .......me to
ro, f»d ,_ .........., ......,. ,.,.. JIIJ.,~xx:Jt me, The lciC'<)CMktiO.llengm of the
J.,J,.,...ut«-V.UW~"""'>'<>ul Unknuom.--.-.: ~of th.lt ~nre. I t,.,gu tO dUnk
Ordii.JI"<tAml:dooW;t,./lttU/aura>td :oOOut true..1'1't>fdt wt.kh h:a~ ~ puWed ""''
thutk,. "'Wtt.s" OOit1Uitf", I Jt411ci• "...t I "WhJ.t'l out thuon'• OKl W\u.t'l out th~! I didn't
J;.:J,.·r ~m..-" <nni>'C.Q. ,m.J 1 hn't 1~ .,;,J ~ue ~ the Ell.ot sto:k iln)' rnor-e, 1 di<:b:l'l CJ.l"l:
h• <itauJ4"""" ir JOO pnt..,.t·l iliout E.2nb Of' anything hke tlut. I lhm•!!hl.. "'Whu'1
IGim': No, t W<ll growing up •nd reolly out therd'" Then I ~to dnw clun.c.trn
t><:fomlng ,.,.,....., af thole things_ Joe from ouu-r :~pa.::e, cluncte.-. frma l:>eneat.b U... tlrlh,
SirtWn k~ 3bout lhllf<' thln9 dn..n.r::ten &om o.nywhere thllt- .;:-ouldn't thlnl: of.
TCJ: ,ts IM tr-, ,.,..J!Ulll..fnj!llot'd 1../..u The a..tkngul ~" ut con fending ....;m ~-.err
u..p~~_,..j,j)' ·~ pe-opt... A guy would 1udder"!ly ~ • potion
KlJIB)': Y~•. I anumcd tMt he toOk that would render him in.t.o • tupenn=. and h" would
u.. OK? [L=t~ I ;tU<IIMd th•t ~n knod:ing down buildlnp ..,th hb ~ lim. How
h<! took 1t, and I ilidn'tlmoe tJ;.e do rou wnta:.d '!fith a !!'IY lite Wti' How do )'OU W>p
m~;-;tM to g~t it b:od In o\1-.eJ;- himl Som.Wmel. I dbJ it in' '=Y c"""'"" fuhioon. oot br
w<>rdo, J didn't ....., mr money direct conftonu.tiOil- SometirneJ, I dkllt br dl:rttt
for a in<y«. 1....., l Y«y J'='Ufl!t coniroo~. I fouOO ~ wl<.Jto.ck him out, I foond ,....,.
m~n. and uwd my money f()f" to hold bim, t found~ to _,kf:n hifll- The fun of doing:
ll3ving ,. good time. tomia -.as flndl"! tbil Ylllietf of wars iA ..ttich 111 condu<i.C"
ru.l'<>....u..._,,.w"lfM-::'iO.. a comi.o:. I'm JWt !he rorl of fclfow who dOoeS me ~~:m~e lhlnl!:'
.sm.. ~~Uin rrW (oo l-iatl a illl the time. I hepn win( a let of Kience-fictioo •ppn-uus. I
o.miooo.<>"'onta"'"'~tnr<lm':t. ~ ame om. with the ';I tom bomb rwo yeo.n bd"Ofe it W1l: ~
Y"' .-:l>T <>{ I!.at I w-:d beo.111e I ~in 1M papeo- thalli fdltn~~ ~ Nkoh
KIRS'I'o I wu a~r" of it, h or.u wmethltlfli th;ul b><:W would fail Tell~ W1ll worki.ng 011 th~ uom bomb. I uid, ""Gte:.t Ida, I r.m
ro, lfw,_<hd,.'lt:J"'""'.-rnv:l !ill! It in,. ttary.•
KJRW. No. no, Unloru l>lmMI 1ud the ronr101~rlon of comrnonilm. TO: ~bad:"" il, dq JC<>-W a...JJm,m <naJ>n=ntw U> IMF..,t.wicF=r,
TU YQu ...,..._,r kiiiY: Yet, tbtte were :llw.o.}'l precunon 10 !he fan[;[ltic Four- ncepc. the
KIRD' E....,rybody w.u .,.-uy. lt.e:mem.b<n, tbH """"'a tim" wlw!n communB!J rrntrdted. F:tntuiSc 'f<:O.U" ~e mutuioca. When people began ~ :olxrul; the bomb md
throt~gh tile meet.t, """O'ing 031f1 •nd •houthlf. The uniom Wd U... ~ thin(,"" !a pOQ!hle dfe-r:t on human beingt, they bep!ll2lllitg :.l:>ou.t muwiom beau.e
rou ~ to uwd:ite them. I'm rpe:;!o'r.ln!t nmo- a. hu-tnan being, not ;u a
ll tiut'1 • dblinct posribiHt1. And I Wd, "TTut'l ;o, gmt ldn. • That'IIIOW the
bulin=an- the union& arc grat, The unio111 are g = for the woding fanwtk four beg=. with m •tomk. ap~os>on ;md ill dTect on the cha.rxten.
peopk he.:anoe thq pro4ett you, but I didn't..,., than that-,. 111 • ym.mg otan. B-r:n Gn111m, 'Who- • collqe :nun and • ftne-Jooklng: llWI. roddenly b<:ame c - o j Sbowc.a
Fiat of lll, the f"'pen would connect th<:m with th-e commun®- labor uniafll m.,Th~. Suwn Storo~ bec:tmein'li<ibk ~ ofth" atomk dfectl OQ hel- I;JJ, 1957.
JA811
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-12 509514, Page41 of
Filed 02/25/11 3173 of 16
Page
bnd.,.- fkcd RkhuV>e ~ud 1h~1e w-M mon~"' be gtrtten far thnr m~. 1 nn t.:O )'<'<' n
W11h '" ,..;u..,_... w1p. And the1e .....,.., or hen - mur;~.tiun. dle<:u J-\dn 't Qflly 1ffe-ct ...ould b<: a urnf..: nt~. :>to:-wn. S!)ld~l'f drd wh~tl (OUW!l"t do_ (~
hn<>M. a1ifecud YllbtM. (oo_ So llud "gnnd t.r•ne Wlth lhe alomtt bomt. S<.,-...,.h.- h.,. m;t;k u at><! I dldn't
{LA>~~If'>i TU W.tt, 1M _,...'ltrn u "'""'<U'("f"- LA-&:.1::)«1- tJtU-1<"'.-.<IcirtfCiulle-n~"'
TCJ: &j4rf .. ,11 10 hnu..oc Fuw ,.,. ~ '60r ~ <1i M~ J'<'<' o&o ~ fM tl,.,.,.,j ,_,7"" "M <>nd ,..,_ "IJ.o•Wr!N. _,.._,,,p-
,\L:n-...1 ,,_,...IJw.
n- W4t !Antt""
s,.,..,
,.,u. The fly ..-..dP~reSrxOO!I- c.:.,. ,.....l#lJ,..A-Iltal "'-~ttjn. llWritrm<M ar d,_.J<"' f(>fr- _/)C 14MMWit
s. ....,. <Jf>Po>m'li/'j ~tul up~ for~ frn' yM1J Wl ralll'ft He never woo-ltd fnr OOrh ar the um.e cl~
~~;QZ](jit!V' j~ u.Ued Jul. Wll'l': I'd ...:.rl for one ...-td tlK :lltwruvn ""'-'"Jd <kt.:r><Xllte, and l'tl go hltck to thr
K!MI'I'Ye., ft.c: tur.;l_ r·~~l>ten.•trkn4of]ue'o.;>nd lclid 11..Floj;wd~ llth<T, ~nd I bouflced bad; ~n.d forth lik-e- a ro-to ~en /llanod 10M~ DC
.'>lm•ttwlth him. h wu mylw th<!l wilh Joe lxu-u"' Me wen! bsldt ro Lorrun<'rtu.l >SL fCJ, ~,.,.. ~._lty.,.,./41DCjarM~'" Uw~ 'jOlt
lCio i&A 11o m..,a Jw u..t f1ri4 fN=<it
W1t:J duJ /.s p ~ JP""--"'1 No, I cln't rNlly 1emembu. I d1H1"t e~a-<:Uy know ...ru._, the
!Q~ It wu like a re:llu a<: lio-n -- 1'1"- ~" lad::. to t6miu, Butju-e lJ older !h.,-, 1
lm. wd I 1hinlo:. i lot mor-e ~""""""'P m lm ""'-Y"· ret TjtilJ-..<~"' ~ ...,.t!unrwp- dod,.... amuCbaiienf"D 1<0<0f
He quit mmla ~d ""v--11 doi~ mm11'>t"rdol ut- ~__,., lhinp u~ns 101m': y.,_, I wrote Or.alWopn- I W>'Ot<' '"-"""'rthln~ I did ~n. I went "-ell to
on Wnll'-1 tluit -reu't uiO.ctlf wtwlftome. But l101ucll to h --- ft wu 1-he only lhlni J.hrve!, I ~in U:l cre~te n.""" 1luff_
I kn...., 1 hul tc. d.o-<>J l<iith th~L U~d <t hwl .,-.,.., ncony. m•nr _,-o.ln Tth>ny....-~)"l. TC~ N-, f<hnll•r-u,_.tdJ~><"~~~frrM~.-...L Didyc>«rof"1Jamt""-T
'' •!!!l huru me. Thlnl<hlg bul< an a,! ju.\t mdn't hwwwh.u ehe to do l<lUT: llhrtya =~ dmng monloler boob. Mo!U(tf' boolo V"C' me the
TCI: Do,_ rorm.....e~ '""""~"'fJ!jthf'.,... ,.a]iu.Jtlt.UJ'I"' .....-.~,...._.-!;p Of>?"Ol>nity to d.-a..- \hing. out of •he O<dinuy. Moruter boob were"- dulkntte
t; <0"'-'<'1, ,md /kat (l)!!IUOf ll.,J ~ 0: =-1 { lt<ffJCW tl ...,.,:lt.Q"" lkuJ~ttd M :~""' <1i - wh:lt k.ind Q( rnrnme.- W<'llld f=inal" pt:6pJe7 I ~ouldn't dr.rw uything \h;>J;
to,..pt:>01!t rll.al J<l<l """"" _ . : •rllu, ~nJ !hal"""' l<ifflril) ~ lh<tt "{'" ~ <1r10.<t. ...-u 100 OU\l~llo<fuh or too horrible I "-"Vtt did thst. V.~1 I did d.nw _,
""rnc~hln.g trtlrl~ng. There W;U wm.etl'u<lij: aho•n thtJ mot'l:lln thn rou cowld
AriJt-Thor Klrurt I -nt~d to m.llc mOVle. >.n<:l ~do!nl com.kt.- ln. !Mt, !~=on l wu !i""' with. ffym> '*• him, you wouldn't faint d~ •"""? Thc:re 10/U nothio~
Ad~of•J>o,flr Mcollng ...,., prodw:~n ~nd prople 01ho •LID.llly ~ ~-I wll do. What 1 ,J~twg m h11 demC<lflor. 'There wu nothin~ ;,ho.uj hlm ~ repcUecl -,ou.. Mr
iJ, 19}'1. ctally """'111M to do " mak...: •~ a I made a m~, >t would~ • go<><:~ on..,._ If mono ten we~ l(>V;lbk morn.tcn, [J-""f"tin'l 1 ga•e them n.:1me:1- """""""""'.,...;!
JA812
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-12 509514, Page42 of
Filed 02/25/11 3174 of 16
Page
and lot~Me ~~They~~ :UW:I lh#'s W..,. ~ IJJ1 prime objm

In ~t;tmkt.. l- had kii:Pk ub itt- order to- Uep ~ woridrlf. And t1:1 I put Ul
I~ tl'l.pdiena In thu """'-'ki ptdi in akL lt'1 ~ ~ !h» _,..
"IT'S JUST JACK'S WORD

AGAINST STAN'S"
fCJI mw. dill,_ wwt ~ l.ft for a.- fim ti..r
lOIIM't [ Jrtet San l.ft wbf:n I fint we11t tcr \lfOClt t:oc M...-..el t k - :t btllc ~
~Joe -.nd 1 'M;TC domJ c.tt-A->u. 1><1 -about l!ytan oM. fk'a
3bour- fl...- yeatt ~ iN:n IDI:'.
Td: Dltt )"* /t.Jt "" t.oo:dr Mtli fti1fl <>t aH1
KUin No, 1 dlt~G&ht ~ ~-. bo!Mr.
TCJ:(I~
1001;1~1
TCh M.oltt.-"'" - -~-,

bJ
ICe'f1 Yott knoW, 1\.o:- UK: Und of w thllt lik.ed to foxol around- open and
~ do<>!'l 0C1 J'DO. Yah. In tart, Ofl<C~ I wkf j<K" 1G lhNw him out !J{ tbe twm.
f(1: &.:4ul4- 4 pmt
u.oJ\ Yo, he.,... • pest. SaJ> ~ w» a pest. Hf' libd to Itt~ md i t -
of)<': !h!nr I coWdn'l u1t:e.
TO:HIMII~~•IIi.l, hit
~He lu.f;n'r clw!ged a hit. I coukiJI't do~ llhout Sun~ beaotae he
- u.t: ~·~ ~ lk m~ ~ lllld fonh uound New Yon doing lhmp
ttut ne- uHd to 0o;1.. tU would mm donn. IUid ~~up (tl fOll! 11M 1ao1o; ~
your lMulda':tM Ml1'!>:lf"'fOU m a lotQfwa)'LJoc -.-.1o1 ~cb~.,.,. 1t.
Td< Mww.,.. ~ fiJ ManJ<JJ r. 18 ~ .,9, .tt-- ~ tb1t.
iUitm'!Yea,;:ondhf:was~~W11if-
TC.I!Mod'~n...~ .... nJiW---.Wot
101111:: sn:n u.e iUid I~ ~<)lbbQr.Jted on ~ rYI:I' nn-~ :~Hn s:r.u. ~
~~.I U!oed to ..,.U.., the~ ju« flU I :lf-,. did.
TtJ: 010 4Jl rA.o ~"""'-llsq ·sm.r"".-tpa Ki>iJ. • ~m.J"' .t...,
~~-~ .. w.r
TO: $ta.oa anct, 'j.d ..._ !....-. ~ 4 htsJt ~ IMt --...- __.,_ • ~tw,...
J(IQ't.:Nod!ltl!] 010
TO:IWM~W..t
lwm<f .. Jd, ,}tM*f
~Swtl..el:'-~~blllt
!allh': No, I ~ tb«o. If St.l\ Ue eY<~I' gOl a thtftt d~, he would set
TO. , . lltmld flo\t __.,.ft«in jw - w dll# ,-... I 1;\id. 7Mo 1M jinl aiM ~
fnnn ~~in the: c;~ffitt.l ~write 1)1;1.( the: whole~ on the
It
bad!. ol e.ny page I '<'IOcld ~ 1M dblofuc om the bad:: or • ~ ol
..n.t w:tS S:oi:nl on. 'fbctl ~ lb!: ,_.w_ hand them oo -IJUT lM he wooUd
_,
~~~:f<7'11lifl-')U_~Jiout-.1'.4n,...~ ... t.Uf-
ICMWl f ~ to do IIOmcthln& dlfJen:nt "The tJ:IOMtf:T JtOrics hlrfc thdr-lilnlwloN

...,;be in tbt: dilt!ague. {nlhla 'rn1· Sw:t 1..« m~ .non pr;y t,h:ttl be <tid :a :ltl
lffiitm ThM il r.h~ _,.-SUn [...,., ~ 1M writu ~ collecting the ediwr'1
- roo ca .}tilt rn.tQ au.nr o1 !hem lttld lheft It ~ • rDOIUtel" book ~
after mouth, ... tbert had 1;0 be!. nMch ~!he- rfmes.~'t~
f»'r• he c<;>J:kaed wm.r'1 f"'1-l'm I>Ol~ll! SGn Lee h:.td :tbad budneu ~
(~to~~ So 1 Cdt the Idea -fO~ upwltb- stnffail d>t-
on.ltlllnkh<:I-OOk~~o(~_,-~fwhin:l.
TC.II&llu-r~~hla~'"""..ti"""'-'s.m-,..._,_ ..
~,
,..w time - in otllet" ltWdol. !hen bad K> be :t b&tt. And I came up with thil b&iu. l
ume up with~ Fan.laldc Four, I a.m.e ap wAh~ (l knew tik Th« ~
very well),~ theHWlt.. tbex..Men and theA...eogen-1 ~~I rouldand
tv= as a younc ~
IQRII'ttYes, hc...-n't c:ut;t!y;w editof,or anything like dn.l.
e&mlt up with whaf_ l cnukll tried D;) blla: the Jtandl Mdl.- RllfL 'The --#Ulf
he'd be h~ •reund -1 tbink be h:ad a flut11, and h.e- pbfil"ltl: on hh
~ to pia mo<Jiel)(l:IIIL
flute. rs.- -ifintu LN't !ml.it rf ~ w hdll-""" JwftW~t. ~m
boll« The Com:k Hool:. M:tkn.J TU: Uti.., U: ~......,_~I liWfll u- • ~,.,..Sa- 1Arr _,. 1"""
""'.......,_.,..1/AiUiu'<r-tforri<Yt.tk~~~,....-lw~
--~
TCh TN EW Pip..:
·r~~u.fiw.fad•....,ll/lkWitt1-"M-"'.,_"""mtm.tn;~
IQIIS"tiY~ He'd cOfl\<:: up wd annoy me. ..-.d. I told joe to lhrow hlm <>UL
~ w IN-IIiN . . ~ O:UTi('t _....!!{,... 11loot. .:1 ~for- .Ill' IMt
"-""" ~ 15,
l'NI.
JA813
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-12 509514, Page43 of
Filed 02/25/11 3175 of 16
Page
lheJ" ""'n ~ pwpk Sun U:e W1l> ~ fitot t\Un they~ ~e. md SWl
1--<:e .....,uld J«~ U k-c «:>old get tft~m HI to '"'"' Mutin Good nun ·n.at- Stln
L<'e'o f\mctlQ!l.
Ttl:Mo,or.o-.,,..........,.,._.,""-""'-."" 'li/-'62'
KiU'I': W., h;;td • ho.- on Lon! l<b.nd.
TCJ:: N :!«' d«noa 1""'-'* 11> M.rt.fl1
latlb': 'iM, I did. One .. or twk.. a m<>nth. I """"'ed ~ twm.:
TCJ: J.Wr.4t ..- ~ Wfknl! lt#tm UA..f
mw: l worked ~r I llkl:d to.
ltOI Klld'n Mootly In thl! ~lttg. He h<"l~ me durtn~~: the <b.y ..oth lhe dul<hdl..
kMW: I t - a won<krful routine bcui.Ue I wuld do wh~ llilclto do dunns
the !by. I <l:i.dJI't k:a~ !D lo'Q1'k In m oi!ke.l could -...or .. tt h.o""". I r:oukh;od:; 11
my ki..rr.,_ I - . l d 'tl\ mut In the mornlnt- I ""'ned with thtlV and ndlo on
~ lt w:u a grHt ""IUf>· lln'l 1 nl~t ~non ntd W11 ;un_
TO: C....,.... ki!.v ,.,_ .........., ~-~f:trtaW.: hrur ""-dovt1 OW!&.... JD JQ J<1¥f
• - N<:>, SUro dtdr!'l know wh.t.! • muuoUon W"U, I W2l: lrudflnt tlut ktn.1 of <tuff
•litho': tim". I would <pot lt in tl-1... n~ ;r.nd J<:Jm<:e ~~ r •till buy
m:o;:=nt:lthu~ bnuful. I OO<>'t r"><l u mud> tae1':te &lion u I did at that
time. l-..u a mwknt ol ~fiK" fklion >nd l ~n to mai" up my owt> ltory'
pt......--m, my"""'" type of peopi.e. Stan U,., doeu>'t th.mk th.e - r l dn. San L""
do&~~'t thtnl of peoJ* ...tle-n he !hmlu of [dodn.-am]. I think of (cJo.mmm] u
reo.! ~ovk- I! I dt.- a_. uo..-y. it Wl>'.lkl ~ """"' guyt c>U@ht In !h" '"'<- n..,
F:anwtk F<lUt' tom" are~ who-re In • pm- rud&nly y<:>u fmd youn.clf
on"'liblc. Juddenty you find you!"l-"lf fk1tbk.
!WJ-l:IUIIII'I': G..-1 wa.r~ts to know hrnor yo:>u crutal Fm~l<nli• F~
TO: W , _ ~l'f1'-0t Matwl ,.--
~ ltcune ;oOOut w:..ty wnply. I umc on [w 1M Mtu--...d-f)Knl md thq ...,-.,
mo•"'l out the fwntwre, they wen: uJanr delkt out- .wd I n~derl th<: wort.! I
had a f.omlly A <WI a how..., •nrl a!\ of 1 <trd<kn Mai'W'I b ~Oiflin!J •F"· San l1e it
<1UI~g on 1 duir crying. He didn't know .-ha.J to do, IH:'• r;;tting in 1 dtalr cry1nf
- I.e ....., jun .ull oot &f 1101 adolacence. ltcld hu"- to uop ny>:nt- I a.~ "Go m
to M.rn:n md tetl him 1<> nop movi"!' the furnirua out,. and I'll ~e lluot the
OOolu make monq.• Artd l came up with a nfl of~ boob "-'ld all thne booh
J:..,pn to make money. Somehow thq had faith In me. I knC"W l could do tt, but I
had to wme up wh.b ftt'ltl dl:o.n.:t"n tlu.t Do body lud t=e befor.,. I tlm" up
..;u, th" Fant:mk four. I am" up wifil Thor. Wh•r~ lt too~~ !.ella OO<H::, T
Cllnl<'! up with. SQn l<::" h:o.d """'r lxen editori;U.minded.lt wun't poa;aibk for~
ma.o Joke St~ ~ to wt"" up with n.,..- thU>p- =old thlnp;~ (or 1h2l mat l-et'.
Sat. l<::e W\Utl't ~guy tlut rood or th:lt told Jtorier. SQn u-., WM • M th•t kn.,..
wherr tile papen -.-~ =who~ comins to -.ltit that d<lf- SW1 Lee il =~
>n oiTw:" -.rU-t-, OK/ l'm c:uentWly wmetllifl8" ebe-: l'rn ~•totytell.t:l'. My job it t.O
tell m11toria. Whe-n I ,...,.. thlt h:&Pf>C'nin( u ~. I stopped th., -..holoe
rla111-necl bunch. l.w:>pped ~"' from moving tbe fumitu.-d
let. Nf1'11J, tii.d. W ,.._..- ifjwti<:e Lague of Amerio. ,....-..: N~ Mul ~i"'f
Jati~ __,.aM ada I:M~-..1 ~'Oikidt ~ ~ 6d<l OO"thnwtic FO\lr1 D•dtl141 ,..mpt_,..,..
to amtr tlo#FF?
of -r..mily ~ ~ ~ ""-~-. s.., Jwo'J 1"Ji"f tA4J M pw :J04,. f*l. ~No. It didn't promptm.,.l kit :an u~;u:the titne.ltwasaniru.tlnct.
and,...._ .mU a-u, «rod V -u .dJ ilu m~ """~ Here you ha.1'C :u> =gerw;y ~tu;~.tion- whit do you do?~ -ter it pourilllf
mz KlR!n'< I ....,.,emoo J:odc 'lfO<.IId u ..ll hlm up llnd ""'l' il'• &oi"! to be thla !cind oi m through • big h,ol., ln m~ will- rou don'tttop to ptu ~ ~~
uory m- that kind of nor-y :uuljuu ""nrl him tk um-y. And M:'d on;ite ll't ~"''""d the w:Ul to •h.:>~ it up, You fjCt • lot of '-luff together ~n.-1 tbm ft :agalna
~ym;ll! ort the o:>de. the ..-11!1 •nd u..p t:he W<lter out. Tiut'• what I did.
IORft': Remeotboet thH: Sun U:e wu ;m <"dlt&. tk ~from nine t<1 five doi..n« Td<~UIIIO-I'~IM-"Fctnr.wicFrtttr"1.
bu<lneu f<>f ),brtfn Goodm=. !n odJC'rWonb, he didn't <to Ill)' writing In the ~ l did. All r!ghr.i' I ame up with all tiloll! tu.md. I am.. up with n.,-
office He did Martin Goodm.:.D'~ busmo~. ·n-..,.. tw function. Then: .....,re hea~.- r·.,.., iliny:l been • hiru>ry buiT. I b»w ill about Tho-r and llaldn IJld
p«>pk COITlHlg up to the office \.0 till:. ..U the time. They wer"ll,'t ~ :o.rtiru, Mjoln.lo" the lummer. Nobody a'er bothered Mth that stuff eo:eept .-. llo-."ed it
JA814
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In hlsh ochw>l and I tl:><'<:"rl It In my 1"""-hl~hool da)t. ft wu tM thins th.:o.t lept :< loknd<or woman, {L=,pw.j Sh~-. • tl\ort. flrm. ,.,..,11-bonlt W'OIJIUI- 'Uid tllo<'l"
n>y mmd off the l'[nte·n.l povo:rry In u,., u=- When I w.mt m .chO<:Il, thJ.t't wh;ot I lull< \e In ..:ho<>l- ot w;un't <11.;1\hettu.tiu and ot ,.-;u,n't &e.:l!nphy: i1...., hi~<>ry. rtoz kiltt1'> Y<>U dro Uld !.he Hulk r<l1llln<kd >"-"" el Fr~nk~rin.
TCI: SU,. t<ryJ /w -.<#plruliuJ ..,-ttutay n>f'rJdutlf fll hRtutiC fow -- !441 J.- """" Klll'l'l Th~ Hulk w;u Fran~elll- fnm_.:,l'lltdn or.n np up the pbce, Uld ~
up ,.u 11U IN d=tnkn, AU rhnt M k'ml d. aI b - « J~ lJ'!WfsU for jruJ. "' Ho.lk c()l.l)d nevtt r.,..,rnbff who be focmerly wu,
i""-
~z KWh'; rv.- ncw:-t ~en :tnythlfl5.
lC.I! Wd1, t.I!UU~~/<1~,...., l!..!SJ'Qi<W!fodla-toJilfoircrMtilltllw
Hu~ H,·, .....W.. ".-\~ i.JMI ~ ~~~ .W.. flu taliaf ~ f{ "'J' wriMu
~ I'~ ~ te<"<n h, ;or.d of courv I would ny th•t'• m o-utnght lk d=u. 'AM"'- ill-mo.~ ~A.ot;,. _,rlttfThe Hulk. "It -.IJ t.r..,)IR~t.J.,
10: S/4" fntff"J ,..,.u. /alt;l atJJ'I"' a>t <ft.l.....t..al-ll"/4 <mf <!{ ~;j ~ftx~«lJ tlr1 «di<JJJ.c....upt~....WII_,...,.IIdfryflt<t><I.~_.,~O.U.qm'll,.l
t~rm Fa"'tutk four. Hrati.o~ lo.tat..tt.l liM""""· d•dJJM th.st}4.<* ~ -u •Vwll:1ii<t t.~ /':fti»JQ '""laW~ s. t.U ..m
KliiS'!'! No, he didn't. It,..,. mft, I atu#....t IAu""rifH rJ Nim u,hlt -'ill forwtth •
fCJ; n..- ....u ~"""' 1M Hd. c,-., 1"" tal)_ a litrt. o<Nvt ~,..,...,.... ~ ;• IOH'J":_ Y~. ~- ahr.>flll>f'~ ""th cOIK~ On th<o conrrary,llwulll'ho
<rtoUftt v.. ~~~, hl-<:.ufht !.he ide2.o to SUn. I blous;bt the!~ to DC.,-*!, Uld t)uo.t'l be,.,
!OU'I': The Hulk I crftt.-d. when I u .. • WOm111 loft ;tar. Hn bliby ...u o:;aught boo.lllnen wu dol\<': from tm ~nnlng,
und<:-r the runninl[-boud of thio ct.r, 'lll-c lltd~ <"hlkl""*'* pl•l'i"tl '"' l:he gutter :uod TO: ,'\uul .tu ~ 111 ~ w"'"" ·ru Hul!t.. •
hot w;,o ~-uwling fmt11 tM IJU<I-m' omo u.~ DU~It un.d.!.- !he nmnin!j; boilr<l of ~No. he didn't.
1hi1 riOT- h., wu playinl'[ In the guttfi"_ ROZ ~lt'sjustbiJW<Jfd;tg:t.iru.l.9t.vo'"
Hil mother,..... lwni.ficd. She l<mi:ed TO: 11o.m...., "ptrioG ""'- '61 aU "6)'
from the reov window of u,~ e&r, ~nd ~'J<N ........ JWf~"'~J
thll woman In <ksp<:,..tlon hll.<;d thOl .....-..~Jb<ock
r~ar md ol the r:--olf. It wdtknty o.me ltOZ KIJ;I'JI: M:ty ltlUII<e 011., polntf In ).11
to me th~t in ~,,.u.on we un :.11 m.,.., ~ when j..,-k- $l:JU nnttn-&-
do W t - - ~an knock do-wn w.llt, thinp. Suo Lee h<om't been at'adn(
we non go be=rl, which- do. You lhinga. When Jtdo kft St.n, the«: ,_.,'I
know .. hu h;tpp-eru >men ...e'r~ lfl ~ mJ1hin!' n.ew n-"""Vxi b)' SW!.
""'!!;"-you""" tr:llr ;I; houa.: down. I IQJS'f': Ve~b. Stan ncveJ crawl an)'l.hln~~:
n~un,. dunctt:T who did •11 th$1 ne-w af!t:T that.lf~ ~he <:reall:<l thingt
~nd ctJ!ed him the Hullo.. l m.Jened ll1l th3t e--ou:Jtr,..mt
did he creaU! ;\ft<:r" I
hlm ln • lot of lht: t~orkJ I~ do ins. leN Tlut'•l.h-e pou!L Have thq ~
~the Hulk- at the anytbtns"""'"' He'U Pf~ tdl you. "I
begmnlllg 1 gnt from thn lnctd<:nt_ A dldn'1 h-;ow to."
ch!UXI"!', 10 moe, cm't be con\JWil'"d. I TCit C..,. I <td. ~.,._~ill
don'tllke to tonutfe th~. Thq ~...u7
h3ve U> ~Q..., :m demrnt of mtth, Thb MaD'! ( (T~::oled Spi&Mhn. We dttided.
wom3n 1-"ow:d I.Q '"" tlut !hoe oo-dm.u-y 1U ghoe II 10 51:~ Dido. I drew me fin;(
JX'~ in ~r.u.e dn::umtt1n£et un ~ co-oe:c I a~ me <:h1tn<:ter.
tra.-..o.end hl-m.Kif ;r,nd d6 thing:< <h::Ot l <:n:1l>ed tbe costume. I ~ ~ thaw
1><: wouldn't on1ltullly do, I've dofw: It boob, but I oou\dn'tdo lhMn an. We
rnp.e!f. rve ~nt t~=l. d.ecid.ed; [O V'o'e the bo:M:, 10 Suve IJklo,
Td: ~ IJw c*iki """(4f btb;<m llu who -me rl«f!t mm for-~ job. He did
ru..-n-iotf borud1 ~ wanokrlul job on tlult.
~!lin': He-·~ <•ugh~ He Wall TOr. Did )'OW.,._ Dilm1
phoylng undn the rtmnlng bo.rd In IOVY: I knew IJJtko a,; weU u Nl'f m::on
me g>~ttt:T. Hi1 he:l.d WtU ttidti"! aur, co1.1kl. Ditko b • witht!=,m, tiknt type.
and lhnt ~decided he w;tnled to ge~ TCII W,..... PJ$ fl' a.., Jl>t!{l1
back on the: ridew::oll:: .tpi<l.. But beil>ll llli!IIV:li(l(~l'rith hml=only
und"f the uor frlghte"ned hfl mother. speak foc T171"'1f. IIIUd Steooe toa'J modo.
He.,..,.. havtns dil1k:ulty cr31oriin-g out I!Ot mm'! We bumped !l:lto tu.n dme
from under the running b<»nl, w lUI yeart;tgo In No:wYod.
moth~r look~d like •he _, t«ng 10 ~ 1-k owp<Ued llloe. He- oety
tcreu:>, and w 1oakd ~ ~ md.,..., ..:w::ialiled, md he'• ..err
d""pente. She didn't .crnm. but •he open with people now;
Kfri1'1-Jttr
nn <>"ff .o the ar n>d,. wry lCJ: ~liM-fPJ-..W7 Amaaint:F__,-tl5,
detetmi:nM, she lifted up the endre IIJUY: 1-k - • ...err 1l'ithdnwo ,;uy. l ~\<fint
n:woith:otur. I'm notl'lyiflJ!;•hewa~ nt¥er bothered him beaUte I fd1 that a~l961
JA815
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66-12 509514, Page45 of
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Ki...,'•--.. a ...r.-r rf Srcn u. """"M..rw~ «J;;,-1f"1

f'--' Pap fr- Me Mind<> 16, l9n.t.-.lr'j
,\lU. &.,.,.
Uu.t'! ~ w.y ~~~ _.,u;d lt. I uiW to him "'M'n it

,...,. n~c~'- I b<:l~ tiu1 S.""" wn U.,., k.ind of
8U1 tlul wmt.r:d It th<tt """'-Y· He- 11 w<>.-.de-rful
.utiit, a wondttM con<O~t. It'~ S.ew Did.<~
th~t llUik SJ:>IdH.J..hn the ....di-known dtar:u:tu lh•t
TCJ:V..~bbltiJ"""'*t
~ V~ l:>ttaute Jt't got l definite ltyle d\at )")U
could rr:c<:>V>ue V>Y"'hne. You ~:m P')i.nl 10 wy
picrun: tlL\t S~ maUl....-.! ""Y· "Dht..o dld Uut. •
h'!lndMdu:ot
!tOr IUU'f: 'floq ;tJ:J look Poilh.
KIU'I'o Yeili- Nil~<& ~=t 1<>00:. i'oJidil (~]
TO 1 U..'l "'--.-.:t~of'-J'Iti>o(-"""'M
lwot /'dtiUW p !Nw.tft <f f- oftM.... y.,.. Jid~ Fury
'"""'!"*~-"'-~A<>~-~, f)tJ ,.,...~%~.
' " " 1YH.

l(ld'f> 5r;L Fury .nt; the ~>ad oJ 11 bf.ttili<:>n o..-
I
..:.<ne!hing.
11:02 lUdt: 1 - do,.,..,Wn: wim him. in the bueTJ>cnt
~ h"' ~ li(Urinf: out wlult the lofco Jhou\d be_ tf
SUn L.ee .anu 10 k.n<;>W ..no utlt.r;d hilft, he un ad
me.!......, with hiJn.
~ 1 didn'l h.:>..., to ~l<e 11t1}'bodye!U't ttrip to
m~u ... kt. a11d mr pufP!ll't' ...ujU:I't m mU.e 1a~n.._
Ttl: H-a>dall.....,~i>oU.. '60Jc=>f~lor~t
l'.lwJ,i-<>.~~~~....,.. .. _....~-r
KlfS1t No. I'd
TCJ: y..,. -u,...,_.., ...u.a-'"',.,.._,'
c~ up wfth th~.
liO!IBY> Ye1, I would '""'" up witl'a !hem.

ftOI.Itll!l'f; ~ lr:ft ),(,.......,,
Whc<l .ad-"'
back 1.0
DC.~..,;., Jnfanono p..e him une bb.Mhe.
1QQY> I p-..: <hatt no. Nn- C..U..
Tel: [)h1,.,.. ~ /wtw ""1..,.,..._, ~ J<"' -.
,.,.,......,""'of <J-1 omd 14m-.. 1M......,._,, H11D1
d.d,.,.. <lnla>m" .til<) lA lh#,.... ~1.114-p.r~ pou-
a{tU~·.-yt.o~l
~ l-ote ;>,W>Cf oo m.t It would pthel-
momentum tQ an end. S<xnetime. you UR. nu)..e a
v-t:rt drnn;odc mry ...ttkh ehds quietly- wtthout
my~ I..._.. had ....n=dinp-1 df<Hl't
bdkve in~tod:cMmg.. To/'U.h the t~ h~
...., not my ~..:thoe, hut to lfW:I! the{~ a:ay.
"Yuh, \hat'• wh:ot would happen"- m:u wu my
oJ:;«U....,. I knew the lomJ.1 - neve-r 11:tppy .U !he
ci~ Yoo. t2ke the ThJn&. he'd Utocl:. 1)0..11 SO guro ;1.1.
.. tim.e :ood win- too. llU)bt he'd rit dO'Wil md

kind of refleo::t ou it:~ l hun ~y 01'
.raybe we coo.lld M.w o:klo-oe K ~other-.,; llke •
lmman ~ """-'kllhlnk, not liU a~. (n
other boob, the guy woukl knod: om the pnp :one!
th.t would be the elld of it. You 1'oo<lid ....e !.he S'¥
In jail, md Uut'aiL
Tt.l!l~~!loal.,..ofW~~of
JA816
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-12 509514, Page46 of
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U.. FQ~ Ft:na w.u tJw
IGU'n l-k--.
n.trdJ of~ T/lmf.
t:ra~
C-an )'0<1 ururgm.. :rourulC
u a tnu~. <IC'Off
t.n<Wins when "'"-.-.
g:oill( '" chan~, a.nd whu
~.....,·11 IO<ll<i!~lO)")Ur
f<llb ~ P""'t'k th•t :roo
I"""', E~ ~~rmrd lO
~teffl.<!Mlh the
Thine bet:- M ...:ted

l!ke 1 r"~u ~ NG
mattn" ..tl•t h~ l<><r-Ud ~~~
ill¢ Thlf>! nevtt ~ll..;.mgcd
hllo Jl<'nonaHty- M"""'
o.lla')'ll .. hUU'Wl bd:tos,
dcoptte hit pl"rp:i<:al c~.
lknGrimm~
r~nt:d ~n Grimm. I
thini lhat'o ...toy !k ~~lOW tutn: that touch d rtlllty. Yoo nn't re11tf ra: lu..:d.,_ ..,...._..,..doll{tlt#tiMitAn.t..:..ba~ -.411..&.!oob.-st
ch~ 1 «'lf"nkll 10IU injure hil bn>t., <X ofhemsmlntrom.<: ~ oiJn_turyln a haw ....... u-J 24 pq;. _..,,...- ~-.! ~ ]j ~ • ..-J.\. *"' dwsl
IHUiU:Ion. aslnttat
i]
TCJ:Jaa, .ud7WJnd • IJ>i rtf~"""' u..~~&tt en-r «D'r~No, I 1\.l::#work.tng boud. Not oclyt:hat,. bul; ll,.,ulool<.atR:II'Ae olm,-oM
~ Wdl, tMy uao<:i&WI me wWI Ben (',.-.,_ I "'1'f""" I mu« b.! a lot lfk Sell P*te'o ~the ~on rhcr ~- thq'fl'!' _.,-r~ ~ J -
Grimm. 1 nt:'YM dud CI'Ut o( • fiJI!.(; I don't uro: ...twt. \h.o: bdJ lbrr oddl are, ~nd rm to~;~ in 1M cluncttn. I p=cilo:d r-, J on:otc fa&t. Nobody couid
f'-"'811 ;ot tims, but I o-y lObe • &.:..,.nt gur :UIIhe tirM. Tlur.(o the Ml'f l'<te ;>~--,. ha.oc lll!illnlJt fof- 1ne beame theJ couldc't b:noe ~the linl:Wol1 <;>r
1'-:1, ~I'- dtJdtM ... ln OO.erWO«ta. my .rnbiUrno wu ~eo be a wMl II:> do.
j=fm: pkrurc- of w ~An Amerio.n it) guy, a rid! guy .nth a fiomity, a
ok.:=t guy with • family, Mn.,. fiUI:tJ' W. u: h<t lll<!!S. doiAg l'l'lw.lw: wanm,
wmklngwith peopt.. tlw M lilt2,.....t~ )tim:.dfto hll Yeryoki "('!.
..._.
ROZ ~ H" ~wrote the Mmy :~..bead Gl lime. be wrote \llbik he-
~ ln other lrof1la. I'd-.- pbnDed •llkli'1-

Ttl IJ.,-Iu .. a~-tlll!U......,..,_ did <01 M......n! TOr n...t'J "'1- ~ ""- yw -<krirl(• SW, ;-_..,. rA..-jh-Jt l1rDp """-
IOUJ'! No, •net.....,.,.., all ~- bay ~n on~!: of then- good. Then• _..., .UW, t. Fanl:altic Four t14t t..t ;-. .. a tflW/"U- -u _,.,..plot lio4t <"'<f ilt , -
.omelllatl ttwu~ht ~~bout lheydldn'to'l'et"lhadow the o!Mr boob. ~1 '
I liked the Pbn<::t Ego- th.l;- inn<l'I'Ul~ wins an enlire pbllll1: u a M~ No, DO, I'd !U.e it rn:- tbe ~then !Ia)'. ~ woold be dol Hen.
penl:>nallry. ).., is, be's • d"'«""- thia guy ilia a-.! He'1 r...U,. .• hua.n lJeill«, but be'• •
Kh c-,...~ ,.,.,....~, ~ s.... "*-"'tftw,...•;4>4J'O<l _., .. dr.tgoll.-...tw.~abUfll:Q\I:oeir>t~lrl~~doi'lam
~ ~ mwl. lw -.La' .mil 01. N- -u _.,.... ~- l'd come !if' wUh :an ..._,..I dlo:bo.'t phm 0t1t me .entb-to • .,..,. I hlLd to do It~
ROZ l(lltm': (Sr.mj """'-lkt nJ' Nt 110 ~ ti1<' OU>rf, and I thlrlk they blko:d two ,. parW bea..e 1 had to thmk for each iodMdt&al. Somdimes.,..,.,. af= I
m~ <Hl d~ pbont, and IMn Jack would JU off and ,..,-ite lbe 114011 on ~ ~ thought il out, w OU>fy Wl:rtdd ¢l«<e' out dift'ercnt ~ ou the_,.~
o( tho: art. would luppe!l md tbi. surwt1o<lkf ~ l<> ~other~
k!JIP:Stan dfdn't know~ the hed the :ltoriel~ :about 1102 Klltl'f\ I nnt~r ~ m .u1 t1w: rean lhat.Pd. <:1'1'1' ~a puld.
TCJ: JW..,., .m..<ll.-..h _,-lin- tV nda#ftlw~p.
~ TO: b IMI ,;plr
dm'I:That would be nty ~· Qt~Y;Yeab..
ta: Y• ->d IdA Jo SLm =IN~-~ uou" typaJJ ~ 1&1...,;..,,.... 10: a- ,... ,.. .-.., ...w1 ~ BSad httll.t
,....~f'lollwtk Four:wft.i -zd lw~ .md lliMt ...,..J,,J"f'-:11 ~ I came up with the Nad. P':U'>tber bea:IDe I r~ I had 1oo:> bladl in my
~OnF~F<>W, I'd teU him ..-Ntt 1 - soinJ to do,~~ lheuory- otrip.l'd ne'fet' dfu,n a bbck. I needro a bhct. I JOddmlr ~dati '-Ia
goinJ (0 be, and I'd bring- it ift - th:~ie.'S ill. lot of bbd realaJ. My lim ftieDd - a bbd:J And Ilea 1.._ 1Jnorinf lhelll
ROZ ~ (Stan] w<n~ld at....,. Uf, "Gfeu." ~ ~-~wi;tl! ~die. h~<hwlled 011--bdlaoe
Kli'SI'! And that's .n &.n Lee: ¥I'Qt1}d "1> "Gmt.· (~ rrt<\ i t - !Or human reaiom-IIUddomJr ~nobody- doiJis biKb.
TCJ!.Did )w ,_. r\Dw ~ fj,.- fl~- ~It# ~ 1<'1' ~ twr...,. ., And bet'e l aa. a~~ and I -'tdol:nf • bbd. I - the 6nt0111
'-"1--
.,c-,._
F-I:U, I'JIIH.w.l.
(Dill •diffomU~ -..-~lib~, to do ;~.~~ ......... 1"ben I J;qan. to fQib:c dAr. ~- a 1fbok ..-. ofh~ ~
IORI'r;No, 1>0, no, lle lOOt them ~tim. If$w:l Lee b-;Ld ~done thU, I'd
h:o.e been Q'O'fi to DC ill abou.l: &ie mlnun:s.
~ ~mmr.tar.~an.WU-~f\ltr.hrodtu....:.
tlw.'l ~ llPlr AAan ~my meta The Asians~ ...u, -- --c-,.....,.
(*ri:iaf' ........ ,..
MARVEL0017228
CONFIDENTIAL
JA817
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-12 509514, Page47 of
Filed 02/25/11 3179 of 16
Page
rn~n !t ju~• lo~ppw.orl lh~t my h'fin(ll ~ollitkd whh

the umes, ~nd the limo nteo.ot ~~:oing: buk t.o
MOI.l""V<:L I mun, thU'• wtt•tl d.,i lle>t. l'd ~ vny
"'"anyililflg:
~t ~he. ~ing m~ ere~,_;,~ ~y thou I am, I
fnund l way to greUt ap the Muve\tna.(:hinery, ~nd
I did. The vtipLt th:~.t £~me uut oltt are •till
there li~•.by.
lCI: 58. il <DU"' a ln'J" ,..<Mtl an>~-ms.t>U tlW "',.~
1~ Ut~tta.
~ Gnum-sancel fon:ed me to do il Th~ f<aced
mo
ttr. V.OU ~.a....,... of""~ <l~tm1f /hi:JJ. ,._,.........,.
'~ ..- Ji4tiln;f 1<1 Jnb offl
~ No, ~IC ~·ta ~of (ltC!lCIOoffiL it,..... I
h<)I'Ttbk, mmbki umalph~e- If yuu ~4u ll.-..1

~xd~ment in Wt kind of ltn><H.p\'leR- the
nl>temerll of feu. The exdternefll of, •Wh>,tto do
t.nV" The excitement of whu't out th<:re. A1xl th•t'l
th<: ex~rteru-m that aJw:op eriued ro the fu:ld- ~~
~m I ~rnng to do n"'" thu I'm not dolng urythlng
more for thi1 publi'lh«f I (:in (110 10 :m<.>thc't pl>bltiDet.
I ha'O't 10m~ 1 li<'lf>!.
t<.:to JMI'~ mo ·~•·~o>n. ou1.[ ~-
1"JRSY: It w.u de~ti<m, but t t - crntiW:
rq, ~,.,....-~.[rlu.-w.-.'iwf,..""'"""'~t>o.--IC't<l w•1 deopentio,_ It ....w. 're~tive .:k:tpcn.don beowe lhu'• wllen ~man rnUr beslru
~Mr~~on oftM s.t.er Su.lfeoo- • hun~~.n. 'oo:lfl! from.~"';,, tlu.t to thlAl< h.ud, and ol wuu" l\ hafl<cm m~ bad to the c:re;.OOn of -r;w Hull.
pU1,1cob~ form. He u.mt: In when~~ ourfins - I rad ibout 11 itl wi>Ub I told you ~bout, and lhil '«>!:rl;an ....tw:. \if!cd • Ci<. If you ~M to d<:~ it. you
II><: P"l""r. Th~ OJ<tte ~Onlfl& to .urf. I c<>U!dn't dt> .n t>t'dltury c~n 1\ft a butldlng. I'm not :!l.yifl1 you o.n, :o.nti I'm nOI uyln-g J"X' can't kel a
'""~ rurfutc w I dr<':'W • ,.,..-fbo:trd l<lltb. 1 <l'tAA ftC>tn o<.ner ~on lt. herni:l,l:tut I'm not rulin( OUt that you mi&ht p<:o!iflboty, if'f<)<l fu>d th.e rl«bt D.k!K,
TCJ<.f/,_d!d1""~<tf'Wfil<~l you mi;M pon~bly lift th~t buildiag. ~not fu. Maybe 1n Yld> ahrJ'O't the
J(!Qf': c~,. \!aJ Go,:!, md I wu l<><»:lng: r.,.. God- When I ftnt"'"""" up with groun.d. ).bybe it'l not -..large bu.tldine:, but you an do iL
Wt.o<:t\111, 1 - ....:ry n..,d by hlm. I dl.rln't lnooo or\t;>t 1.0 d<> wtd!. tJ><, dtu.c1er. !'...: lodn tnVI do ever-ythln\!. I think 1n1n il the kind of Ulima! ~ b
F,,..,.-yb<:>dy Cl!ks o.bnutGod, but ..mtthe hecl.dort he look 1\kd Wcll,\><:'t ,~bl¢ of doinjl: anything, Whether it'l good or hei>><>W~, "'hethtt lt'' e~ or
"'f'PO""d 1<> M ~"""· ;md C..U.:nn il ~~to m!l'. I drew h)fll ~ and hom My, hornbly diflkult.
~we.ome. HoOf\<! ~r Jut.ew U.., e><ttnt of hi.~,- :myth~~ lnd 1 think TOt ~Marwtuarlni~l<ducf/- ~.~--~~~nmJUr
>ytnbo&ally dat'• our rclationth.ip [omh CM'J. """'~>....,-.a ~"f" ~ frP[tU.U .o ~- ..- rMn" unu!W,..,. -.l:t!N
lCJ: ]If~~ l.ll.a ~~~;..~At ·6[1.-,....,--fr¥W..<>riUU<:~ ~.f-~~-17
Qt1: Yrt. Cm:ntct w me ~ame more llu.n ~ livd:il\oo4. It .fuR beCI.al<! lllR"' No. ll<nocw' U,. then that I ..,.. Grtly goinfl; to o:rl<lL: - I ..._. m:tling a fairly
1C.1t ..Wid""' mil II"~' r;<X>d ltviflt. I wu ;naklnl! good moner, and my ~e ...u Soln!! fine, and l
~!UIY: Yu, be<::utae I tDd it in 1 pl:aU<lnl1.e """! l foond th1t l mulol be C<Urn'<: in a wu ll!iJIIUt>lf ol mtwing f"<l'"ibl)> w a ""utt p!:ltce.
1l01e> dtlfuent """%- ;o.nd l cruted on<' thlnt;. and o;hen I finitlu:<l tlut, I cre:ued !tOZ l!lnri Stlllt- 1 Uttie eT~counginl! wh="""' bard about college ~u.
m<Hher. I bqpn to thin I< of ftrioua; new ttu"~ to d<>. ~aklnr; m interot In dt the boocU.
1(/: Cml p!< ttiJ -wk! 1M ~•n rJw '6th-.- n~ ~frrri~ft;,..t m..t~urr JOQr. Ob, ~ Comicl""" ~quirin( • ~ audi=ce. Of coune,lt'l unMna.l
n~/JoizJ~I<!>It tod.y, but }"QU Glll't:acquin • ,.;der audlwce Mthou.t being ue-;nh'<:. Ym;. c.w't
~ Mu'l'd ...as on itl us. litentfy, and ,..n"" 1 came ar~ thC1 Wtle prncU<::ai\r lind !h:li "")"'ther-e today.
hauling out~ fumintre- Th~ were lllrnl!J m<Mng: out tM: fuwtrute. Thory """'"' TCJ; Did J81i jitiJ/ 111<11 fi<1fi1Jirttr
beginning w mO"O"e, 1nd 3\a.n LM """'o>ttinJ: th«e Cl'J'ns· I u;>ld thtfll to !:><lold ~Of co~ it-. fulfilling. It~ a h~m tim<! of \if~. But. .w..ty
r<ttythin&. u>d.l pledsW that t WO\lld ~them tht! i.lod olboob tholt ~up ~ement rud<:knly rffimd I w.u nu.kllli mo...,., lla}' ·~1.· but 1
th""' ~ md ke<:p than in butlntft, and that- mr ms
~ mes:n an indmdual.J .... ~"' U><>n:: money tlun he,.,..., 01(} It'' 1n
ro. r~il Rit~ &~,_f.a tAat • - tMJ Jrra=n tWf=d.YN t.l:ll<th$1 in~ And.., h.t l;t;yl. "Welt, you know .. ·And the old phr:uo: ;. hom.
"Screw you. I get !'l!:i=." OiU And w I had to ft'Ild« to~ wttu_ Moe
lil=~ .... ~lt>~·--
t ud ttl uak.e a livin~. I "W"H a ~ried "';r,n.l h:ul a wife.! h:.d l home.
l(tf!!y; c~d Cae:Ju'1. And there wua man ..tto n<:'O'tl' wro~ al\n<lln till liCe- he
l h:od <:ehild~n. I M.d. 10 ma.l..e a living. Ttut'• 1M common punuh of <"'ery coould hanfiy e.pdl- you kntl"f, ulrint: credit for the writi"'!, 1 found~
CONFIDENTIAL
MARVEL0017229
JA818
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31710 of 16
wm~lg up wnh new >OI'(I'< w k=p ~fk>oL I wa.o. in~ t..d •pot- I
,..,. 1n,. $pol !h;o.ll d"-!n't ~~~ w hem. ~"o.l )"Ct I h;u.lto uuJt" 1
liY>n! So I ""'"' to DC, ond { h<ogUI <:~:Wn11 ftJr lhtm.
TCJ: y,.. ,_, tftl<f>K <1 1"'(1 M,_ <11 M~1
ltlUY' Yc-~. I •..ru &ctung " good p;tge r,,.,
KJ, W ~ f<sft . _ m<rl'<>!' n.lnu>""~ '" W "6(4 M 1h1 """k
~(<) ..... ....n po;tJUJrl
IU~ ..... Yel, ,, d.d, My olJj~CI l<i<l w hdp the puh!l.Wr '" rtuk<'
ulcl Th~t...., my JOb- h ~·,,._rob of kong 1 Rc<m.br"--u-dt-
IKI! 1(1""'- II"""""'' thJ.t b1~ on lfl(tt"-l<'
TCJo ~ 18" ·~ "P/J'=-ulJ ""'-"' 11 - " ' ~<~ 1•- 1M "'W"""'t
"Mh u. tM /4tl '60!1
Wl ~ I don •t r<"mt:mbu whlt !hr. f'<'!l:* T"-IC w;>L
lCJ' ~ J'<"' 1""'-'- )'OWf>t>p .-.tit d..,_Ak;l ~lmfff tlu '6(),1
ROL ,..-v: I don't •h•nl< h doubled.
lOJ:a't' I don'tlhlnk.Jt doul>kd. but ll !!r.ldu->Jiy (TCW. 1nd ot gr""'
(;uae.- 1hm i! u.ua.lly ,lfd
TCJ;.Tlu ;~la cf IM """'" t'"- Ja-ih4rt lh<] trJf< dul.
~I~YN, And thu'1 wh:.t otdepcndcd <NI_ I O.n.,..- It would
tkp<!nd on th~ uJc <>f th~ ~om~. tf Woof the- com.ia bepn lO
dwmdk, then your o:.Lu-y ,. gotng to k soagn~nt- If l'Oiet fa!l
more, 1hry'rr. ~tog In lo""« f<>IH uLu-y. i( it dw!n-dlet ~"
fllni>ff. your -"W"r II to-lng to- b<: •lnt !mooer th:w )'0'-' wu:.Jiy
m~l<e It ga« th" other ""4· too
f(J, &u u·s lry M "'OifnS urwn IJwJ •/ tJ.. <-aW tn<n..u ... t.rumtiat!)
pur pnp ..._.. ,.JJ '""""" ruhlld~tm1Jr
~IQ'f: 11 d"f"'n-dl: on th<' l<ind of peuon )"'J'l :ore
TO: Did ,_ "'- t. ...:4 Jqr ·~ M d..t th.rt nmpiJ afftr t.lt.tJ'II I<! )'<tot I
~No, no llu.t:lto ... 1.:. for them, Til-ere'• a d._.. oyot<'m m

LOtn>D.
Tn C.n-"""'~n/Jwl
I(JH't': OK The :..-tm u th~: \owat fonn of hfoe on th~ rung o( the
bdder. The [><lhlWlcn uc \<-IU<>Ity bulin~-""'""' who deal Wlih
t>l.twtcMmen. They de;~J wllh promotional p.eopk. They do.! with
Gn..ndal p=pk. Thq dnl With :>.<:<:OW\Unu. They de1[.,;th
pwpk ,.oo ...-otl< on h!ptcr kwll- They <k.:ol with (all poro~. but
~ ilisolu!dy no lnt~"'-1 "' ~rti:l.c., in lndtvidu->J anlm,
c-<pe=lly ""''I )"'<U'! arllm.. n,ey·n.:
!l01!0l"8 to be that
mt<:-retted ln ~ry. ""''1' young ~e. Thq' p:.t )'<)U on the Mad~ g:y, "How ~'d ~out o( their offio;.._ I >rOTI<.ed .._t h<>mc all th<' ~ I Oe'l'er ..-oded In
u~: you.Jilcii!!l~ Thing• like th•t- an otlke, oo I'd brlnf! In my 10'00; Qt;l}'be OttO timet;~~ month, rro:t.ybt three.
But the fan 11 that very )"Q\•ng peopk wer<' the ones who did the W<lfio. Utd ~I'd come uP b~.r,wd ..w-rybody.,..le1vint the offioe., :md the
~n•bk-d th~ fiUY'IIO conunue the k.ind oi llY<'ll they liked. Sm they n........r publWte.-..oufdom>e O<lt. =-1 h~'d ~· "Hdlo-,J;Ld:k• I'd~ "Hel:lo, Mr.&..
rc<:ognlzc lh~t_ If they don't think you'~ imporunt, they'll !Tel-l )'011 In tlw: And-So! And of <:m.nt: thit M wu MT. £Us. l'd uy, "Hello, Mr. Iii«! Mr. Bi!'d
puti<:u!-u mLrll1e-r. Thcir K<:OUJ>~\1 ar-e mo.-.: important to them th.Jon )"'U are. 'ome o-u.t al hilt office :md plOt"""' oo the bad riow ue you,Jildiei"' And th;u
~nd )'<:t you're malo:.ing the l;lks ttuu they dcpeJ>d on.lt'l m odd seurp. bur lt wu lt. ll'Ril~ wu my rclW<»ubip with the pubfu.her.
c~tSU- A wry youn1 penon un <:o.-ne up 10'1lh :on i&n- well. Supeusn ir. the TC.J, y,.Uti..k 1M, Jt>Jlluwl ~ altinuUt
cbuic a.;o.~Dple, •=-' AJI th-<K buoin=en ar-e ~t th" rop ofU.c pynmid. but the !(Jim'; Ye..l do, I thlnl: lhe Mitor hu thu attitude.
entire p)'famJd fl resting oo twO little 11one3, wd the PT"'-""id <k-nlet the TO: Atllvlilow, d:iot_.,..._r-1 IMI,.... -~~ Qrt
e:r.iotetu:e of th~ ot.;mcl bccawe it'l «> hig. lt'l l<»ded. with offi.ciala, but. the lhtk I(IRJV:Y~- I - being ~ondcoo:endc:d to, butfoc the-aM amym~and men
<tOI\tl Olftl the onn that ve hokling I! up bec:IUIC that' a wMre !he wppon ll foc the ,..1:;.e ol my .,;ce ;o.nd theo for the lak.o:- of my~. ( ""med lo that
cmning front. U1d I"""* in the~ poo!irlon. lind<>( a=oiphere. I blll: to be «mdHCended to. I'm not !:he k.lnd o!JUY thU
KJ: Df4 J(* Ee. /Jw fi'-J.iisJw of Mm'u.J t>jWt til !h. '60ft Iiles that kind nf thin8'. Ther~ ~ tim~ whm you work wit:h peopl<: J'9U f~d lll<.e
KMYt t>ID. Man~gcrne.-.t mcuu the edlltM'. I'd l « the pubfu.be:n O<:CiliO<Uily. punch!"! in ~ mouth.
JA819
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31711 of 16
'f(J; Pmb~>bl.J mod<>{ lht IWuc KlRSY; Not much. ! didn't particuliidy ''Me to t.<11< to Swt>, and I ju~• !0"" him
l\IRII'f_ All right, th<'.-e't loli of peup~ who vrutk m olfKe~ wheH: 1hey ha,., a pombly "!nte >dea of wh.<t the uext ~'"''f wuu1d he like, a.nd d-,en l went holllc
hH1wh time. Tm!~y we ~can it pre,;;\!fe, but;,·, nm pre1sur~. It'~ r~lalloMh<~ wid hlfn very httk. ~nd I w.-m hnme, and! conceived and put down the enute
rl>.<t P""S"'~ can lg<o c=d by bettt'r !<"lath>mlnp$, the way I 'e~ tl Th~ W~! ~ owry on papn,
'daU<•ndnp froun lft a la<kkr-type •tH>t:!Ure wllh th~ publisher on tt>p. :.r,d "' 1f TO: Hmu da you jut whtn M ILII.iu a/Jm;l wl>ill a gr<al guy )'OU an, whal a lemfi< otJwm-br
i"u w~re on the honom nul.g:, it wao quite a thit'J! for the guy on the top tung to J~" wm, wh>th ht JeM. fmp<ml/-y ;dwi lll/otd abottt1h< gt'<ld ci' dapf
'"Y· ·Hello. Ja~~ie.' KIR~ Why wouldn't he say thatf
!0: ! ;._,, 1 '"k Y"" lomu !'"" wn• pmd r \VYt y~u pmd un " wukl)' b«;u' ROl KIRI'fl Y.-ah. l~>ok what _Jad< thd f<H Mand
K!RilY· I -~paid when ! brought my i<:npt m I wao a free-lancer You got p1<1d on l{IJIIIY: Whywoukln't he .ay \hatl !lllu.dn'u;w~d Marvel and ifl ha.Jn'tmme up
t we~lcly bio~i~ if you »-orked in the <II fie.,, ~nd J never worked in the oifiu w11h !ho,e ft"ature~. he would have flOthing 10 Work on. H~ ''-'Jul{ln't h<' wndung
TO: So y•m lrroug!U"' m< '--'"u djFant:llllk Four, '"'d rloty nmf!ly gaw J"" a du,H "ght nnw.! don"t k,-,nwwh!lt he'd beduin~~: !tow. He wooidn"t b~ in any eduorlal
~I !illY· fh~1'd •end the dt~ci out, They wnuldn "t gwe the check. lQ- me, but I'd get pw;twn.
1h~ ch~<:k th" following wtel<- They ;qete prompt with their checklL We n~vcr had ltJ, D~ J"" rhiM ht btlum> tluu, "'u that a publu ,./alicm jamrh1
·"'Y ,b(fkulty ben"'" I....,,.,. ma\;.ing !ale, for d-,en,, and ther~ \>'>U a good ~1RBY' I '"Y in 3 f:>cade, ;md ••httt h" re11lly mr-an$ li he 1ovcd t"-kinl;! mt'. l ju~t
<ddt>mulup d,.•re. hoP" that you don"t fiT1d your~lvM< in a p<">llillon wile«< you hi:IVI! lo deal with thM
f(!· J!~m 5,( ~''" f•~l dunng r~; 'r>fk '"""" St.>n /w~m• ~"'""""MY th< "' ""-'*•• ,,.J hnd of:> P"''<>n~hty.
wrt rf!xcam~ llu ~{firwl 'p.>kniMll a-M {igur~hwd frn Manul rA:<mit.<r ROI !OMY: l'd hke lO "'Y l<lfltetbing if l umld. Jaclt cwated many ~h~racte"
PiJRflfo Wd~ Stan h<ofam~
a penQnahty through hi• rdauon•hip wHh !he owr\et. b<:fore he even met .',;tan. He cr~~ted ~Jmm.t all th" ~har~nero when h~ ~
ROl ¥.11lflY: Can I uy mething? It bother~d m~ a lot when it $21id Stan u,., <h'-' ·"'o<iated With Stan, and after he ldt Stan, he ncated m~ny, many mote
.wd Sun L= th:u. ll they wanted to h<:! fair, they could have <aid, "Produced hy d•ar-anen, \'/hat haJ Stan <:rcau·d before he met Jack, and what hal he neal~d
Scm L.-;~ and Jack Kirby.'l\ut h~ <!Hln't h<~~"<l tJJ •J.y, "Wntt~n by." He didn't have to .>her Jacl< ldl?
10\ce :t.~ rntirttn.-diL He'd p•n down drawn by Jack "King" Kidry )nd alllh;.< ,tuff. KlRBV' And my W>f~ w:u pre•ent when I cr~a1td theoe damn chan..;teu, The only
K!RI>Y: y,.,, and h~'<l be ~ery llippam. '''a;crm I woqld ha~e any had feeling! ag:;unot St~n i~ becau~t my ()Wtl Wife had 10
ROI Kllt!IY: Jack took it W>th ~~fa<<! o( <ah, but 1 WM th" une who wu v~•y hurt by suikr through that with me, It tak~ a guy lil<e Stan. Wlthont feeling, 10 re11liz~ a
t( all thmg hlcc th~!- If he huru a guy, h~ aho hum hi< bnuly. Hi• wife ill gving U> ;uk
TO: I ·~~- rwt Jffl' ron- milt~~ Sra., abm;l 1M apf>limiMn of crdur 'j\l<'~itim. His chHdren are going to Rlk <j'<c~t;om:
~IRS:;'; Y<m can't t~lk \O Sun aOOut a>lything. TCJ: Waq.m =y -- a<1i!ll! im"t U, nglu •~ard --lml ~ 'flill an. rt>p nf!hinr; durin~r
ROZ Kl!U!Y: Every"' dkn he"d put down, "Produc~d by." thm pm.Wt [),J yau kru:>w wltat WM go<r~g or~ I
~lftl!V: Y<"ah, VJmt-:dme:~ h~ did_ S1an '""'a vtry rigid typ~- At klUI, he 11 \0 me. ROl K!R&Y: Of tvurse. J~tk ""'-' nght do"'n lio<"re working in what we ;::.'1\led the
!"b('~ how I ""'d. him up. H~\ ~very ngid >ype, nnd h~ get;c what he ,.,..,mu wh~n 'hmgerm. W.- h~<l 1h~ ]y"""''"""' th~n, ~ wttlio down tht'«' in 1he dungeon.
\ile ad.van1age" hi5. lle'• the kwd of a guy who w>ll play the ad..-"nwg:e<. 'W1vm Whenever ~(lylmdy calkd, or ja(\1; ume to \he office, l was u5uany th..,re It hurt~
the ,dv~ntag~ tm'l h10 at all, he'lllo>e. Ue'!l k•<e with any creati"" guy. m thi! d3y when my gr.u~d!on >~<:e• Stan Lee"! name ~nd he knows what h1&
ROI K!RilYt And l coHld nev~r '""Stan 1-"" ~s h~ing crrotive The ot>!y thing he gnmdf~thn did, at>d he "-'h, "Why~~ Soan Lre"s name ~n over1" Th~t"• hard to
ever kr.ew w.u he'd say thi~ word -·E~cel,uot-1" ~xpl~in. you know,
TCJo W•ll, what f Wl<nltd Ia ,,J,. yo>t W<U. what dui 1""' thinJt. aj S!afl O"ffltmg 1111.1 pubil;; KIRflY: Yeah. Sc. why shouldn"t1 be hun;> Why stwukla"t my f:om1ly be hun} I !:now
/'"'""""~'whet~ rony1hmg was Jlllmpd <Wh "St.tn Ln m,.,,.-·r H~ ""'-""[Mf<trtd my \O'ife b sore ~t m~-
"'"'-"'If,.,- u hi..d af grand fit;~tt. ROI KlR!tf. No, l"ln uot wre,
~Ol KIR~ TI!at"' wha\ he wann. KIRBY:- bcc:>me 1 •ay dtcse thing<~, hut l"m deeply hmt bec:.u•e it hull my family.
KIRilY' I •hink St<~n h~• a L..od compk><. Right ru:>w-, he'J the father of the M~r,.,J n,trc's nothing I can dn ~hnmu. I'm not going to be believ<:d at M:a,--.,.el. l'm not
l)mvet~"- He'~ a gHy with a God complm<. going to be bdieved anywhere ~be lutk:~o, .. A<:u,uolly, my own fe11n. probably
T()' D1d y.m '~>I"""'"!"' W '601 uJum Stall ""'-'p«l!ing !W Mml al1. i1<Mt /)"' plaa1 prodded me mtu ~n <tct of cowardkc, lt'~ an act of cowardice. I ~hould ~told
~mar, Well, you don't haVt: to !ee a thing like th~t coming. {( wa' lu>ppening, ~nd Stan to go to hdl ~nd found •ome other w:IJ to make a livit>g, but I couldn't <Jo
l rbl.-. 't know what to do about it. Stan Le~ wu th~ editor, ~nd St~n had a lot of iL l had my f~mil:y. I h:ul all apanment. I j"st couldn't give all that up.
mfl,.~nt:e al Mane!, and there was nothing you co~t!d do about it. Who ar~ yuu iCJ: Buaw< Y"'' d<dnl hmx a/i...,.,atJvn f
going to tall< w about it, se~~ !(f!IIIY: l didn't have :dt.,.-natiw:s, and DC wasn't that big ~n ~ltemative. ln fact, 1
TCJ' Wn< Stan pmr bmi~ a>nlad rmlh Mnrw/1 i->egan to do ~• !nttch work at OC ;!$.! could,
~JR!IY: Yes. I'd com<': in, and I'd glVeSta.n th" wurk, and I'd go home, and I wt"Ot<': TtJ, At lk mk <>/ tm<nding fulrWan, Itt m~ .W. JO" this: Etm~ 6ru 1.-.ad siimdhi.,t fry
the story at home- l drew the •tory at home. l ~"""lettered iu the wor<h in th~ Stan ar \te Sian ;pra/L pu!Aidy, Fm )lrudr fry how 9/n.<,au~ alrull.!hil ani.!/ ht is. Wa.l fll
balloons in pencil. "'111l11' tluu '""Y'
ROI KlRB'fl Well, ycu"d put them ia the m~rgln•. ROl KtllaY: Ye~h.
KmliY: Sometimes 1 put them in the margins, ~ometimo I put "c<n Ul th<': balloon$. KIRBY: Yes. Yt:l, ll<ncw Stan wh~n he w;u a young boy.
But I wrote the entire •tory. I balanced the uory. ROt KIIUlY: He w:u Mr. Petrou<~lity, Thai'• wh111 he wao,
TCJ: Haw lang,.,.., JOUr di!-.:tffi"fmu ,n-!lt Sltm Lu t<4li11 '""' ~~ diJCUJJiug W JW<I Thor Kllt!IY: If you ever get to talk with Joe Simon, Simon will lellyou exactly what the
,,-IM tt.x.IAvengers ar Uu nal fan~aSti<: Fourr H~m~ Wng wrmldyou Ia(): {()Stall nlm!l 11t hdi Stan Lee was. He wa! ju•t a liule w'i!e glly, :>nd he tam., from a family that w;a
JA820
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31712 of 16
upf><'Mntddle u-. and he ~ould 00 wh;ue~er t>e

lillM_ He c"'->id "'Y .,..lau:•·•~T he Hlo:<d, J'U h.: funk
With rou- W<'! conud,..-ed tum • palt! m the ns. He
If'""' up to be nvtly whu- corui<:IH«i l>i•n
TO A~ rMt -.1 <>! lnHI. ~ ~ d!<!r<ran- I
~~~ ..... TMrY....-"'"""Thrn--..
~u.. on rrw.J~ ,_,____ pm"". ...ntdt fuJW qwu"'
1-'-'
taUY: Yel- I !O'tffi T'- ~~"'"" I klvt;d li'J:"no:U_ r..,
~ lo-v«!legendl. Sun Lee w;u the type o( K"~
who .,.,,.,_,Jd ~r l<nO'W abou-1 a.a1d« •nd ..-ho ..-ould
neYer kfiaw ..00U! <he fMl <>( t\llo doan.cte--n_ \ h:w:J !O
!J.uild "P lh:lt kgeod ot Thor m the comKt
lCJ, Tlu.....,.. A<p:>.b.»o -
1a11n Y«. n,., ...-holt' Mptdbn utmpo.nr, te-e I I b<.nlt
Uf> U,U_ l1lmply H:-.oti lukl U U1e ilillalc >1\l:.ln ..,..d,
of c~. 111 th<' re<t of them. l ewn \ht.,... tn the
Thr...., Mutkeuns_ I clr""" them from Sl>al<np;;unn
!!gum. I tombmed Sh~r~ ~It"~' with lhe
Tiu-= M\1.-lktee-n. and came up with </lese three
f.V.ru:l:l who wppl<:m.:nte<l'Th~ >r>tl l>i; (Offip-»>J.
;un1 t]llif; il the~ l hpt tit.- WI~ going --I:Jy
cre~ti'oe lhtle ""£>1 !tkt.': Uut.
Td:: .SO... of rJw Arl"rdi""' lmubr"~ il ,,..._ 11Ju J<"'
""""'Mt..LI>i.mtrfti-Cfl'1
K!ltD':- I dld. I to.ot • g.-est joy wl.lh mffrltin' n-=-w

l<inds of m«lun~ I in"'"'"d """ kin<h of
n~in.es.l've bee-n • otutk>>t ofocknce fiLUonlor a
\(tflf, IonS: tim<', and I o;m tell you th~t I'm ve.--y ""'11-
.....,,--,ed in .:i<:'...--e r.ct 1M Kknc.e lktion I'm 1l
ye;.» okl, and .., I'•~ ·~~ ..U dU. new ~O<><:epdon. I
w.ed m rud U..: forn ..:ieru:...-l'ictiot> hoolu, ancll
b<:f'J'H' to ln.m "bout the un;..,~ n-.~lf U>d ~k.e it
<.erio-mly. I kn<>w ~ names nf the S-t>n- I krw"' how
ncu or fu the ft~nly l:><>di.e:f ..,-., fror" ou:r u"""
planet I know oo.u-.,.,..... pl:.a in !h.e uui""'"'- I """
fed the nrtneu ol u uuide myseff. I heg:m ro r~U\u
with e.W ~"S (£0. wlul a wGndttt:u.l U>d
a~ pb.c;<' \h., uni..,ne tJ, and tfu.t helped me '"
wm\o. be<:H...se I w.u k><>kln~t for ttl<' ~-:t<J"'"'- I
fo-und il m Tlwr. I fo-und tt io C.ia<..U&.
TCJ: U """""'J<"'~"tlhm~O....~n""J""ndj«
-=J_.,..,.-Y, a....:I~U,./r~Vitta~•did~
<W,.-t-n&f"--""U--
~Ye.tr,
TO: 1rt {.ct. !u _."""'of '~• ~ u..b:o:J = J""" .-.,

im WILl a !;O"d pr<>feulon..t ir~l<er, hm I didn't
cu-e tll<l mudt fO( hQ puticubr uyk

ro, Ht--"'"' ...;ttpu tit ,_...of rJw drtmlin,_
JA821
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31713 of 16
RIIIIM Wd!. thrr,. wM nothing I nmld do about th"!" thHlgt~ at ~ny rnte. h wa~ the TOt Whm fr<[m!lina mm• m•l Mtd wlkt:d 10 )'<'tl, did he ~tfn- ,.,. ~lith•\ M dtd J"''
, umjMny th<>t hne<lthne \\U)'l, .u1tl •t wd• the l<llnpany that g-.:tv"' them the "'""'Itt "'£11lli<tU {M tlf lhd you U/1/;"" )'<'tt wmlltd mort «mtmi au~r thl warU
~;,~;nmttl!~, ;md my pa<t m :ubng for an inbo:< or wggtcMmg: an •nhr waJ mL I P-Ol KlRB!f: He Jill! •aid wo;\l hke you !<> W<>rk, a:nd Jack :<:'lid, "Wdl, I'll gi"t you
I
tH:vu mnde th" ehok,.. 'hrt'~ boolu."
~Ol K!Rlh" Som<: uftbe mken wo"!d "-dually cr~ pencd line< 1Ut Bul if t#IU Jack wiw huw1U, madt tht wggnHon lh<lt hi Jc 1/u hoolu. thmlu hm.,
l(lit!IY: '{~ah. Thry'd n:ue my penu! lm~\1- And :10 I muld do nothtng o..bout it.! '"'''mi G~lff Wm, ,,.d Jafmth.
, 0 ,klu'l mail:.~ th(>$<' choin:, My main cun>ern Wli.Jjmt n>otking a hc~ng. 1 wasn't KH!JY: YM ThM'1 what ! ,.,.nt.,d. Mid llold Cannine, ~.nd h~ ga"e th~m to me
~""'R m get tempuamemc;~l ant! fil(ht about :nhn or :.nything els~ In lltort, l
dtd wlu.t I hMt w do w .upp!ement my bmtly, ROl KIIUIY: 'Uu:y ulf~•ed hun .\"fr/"~'""' but b~ '"'<1
h~ wouldn't take Supm"'"'·
rn Whm did y<m g»~ mow'"'' hm-ta C<~lijrmtUl! K!~BY, No.I wouldn't tah Suprrman.
' ~Oll'tiii!IY! llh, 'fiS

ftJ: '61;1 S" ;wu W¢f• u,U workmg fur Marwl wllm Jt>U mwtd le Cabjonnn.
ROl KHUI'I: flm he ~Y". "Wh~t·~ th~ wom-•..!Hng hook?" a,-,d {lnfa>dilla]
'fmrny Ol.!tlt." He S.Y", "Cive me }tmmy Uilm. and I'll ,e., what! can do wn:h u.
'"1'1·
KIUY:Vei. K!~llY: ! tn<:Jk }"nmy 0/.1m bennlle a w:u ~ dog. It didu't h-<ve lht' >'<k• cf Supn-wm.
71, if l rm<nnbv wrrmfr Y<rn Uft
tn ,-'\mi I Mlirw yDu hjl Mdn!ti '"'"*"'d '70M and I feh tho; be!t way 1 could prove my1df h"llJ taking a book that w-.u slow and
M<Jrfl<l '""'"'¢,"' mmmd Famamc Four 11102 li"' jtul dJdiJ tm'/'1~ of!Jn.on pm: ~~ >pt=ed\ng up it$ ~ale,. That't th<' "'"Y 10 prnwo ymmelf_ And 'n I took Jim""! Olmo,
~!f!Umrtr•. ;nd J•mnry Ol:!m became part o! th" •<=net <)I b<Job that l thd lot llC, and they .<II
ROlK!ItiiV: Yrak Th~tt'~ nght ·nade mtm~y. jimmy Olrn. '''"~making >noney. OC (Ol>ldn"t beh<Ne it. {Lcughu.-]
Ttl: ,Y;,w, am J'"' <xfrkmt 11!6 mnurutant.. 4 why y.m left Mnrod, <>nd why you. !Aft a/ TCJ; Haw tlfttf yaur -rddt!'couMp urtth DC dtmng !hat whnk pmtJd r
I
ihcll fmrtuYitJ.¥ t.,,,.r KH6'f, Oh, il WJ$ . t had ~ome twubl~ with them, too.
t!RBY: Thne come~ a time whrn you·~~ had a gm-full uf eventhing. I had a gm- ROZ KIRBY: Not at lh~ h~gmning. They kt yo11 alone. and 1h~y didn't bother you
r,,a oi M~trvt:l, a gut full nl N<OW Yor~. Vv"h<'n you <Cirted do;11g The Nem Ga<U, they didn't bother yo-u
ROll<!lllJ'I: Ahd COurnme lnLuwno g~veJa.:~ the '>fip<><tiHuty !0 dv hi! own W()f!<_ K!~IIY: No, th~y didn't bother me when I was doing Tlu 1Ww GcdJ., but th<':re '"""'
lCJ: Jf, """~ <>UI hm "lid wurttd YO'-' I 'cmperam~nu \<:>contend ""th, and they had all 11ew ~ditorial peop!.,. There w.u
KlRIIY,Ye~- He came f><" hn.,, and ht w.uveryl<ind to me ~ iot of differeiH t"mperam~nt w contend with,
ROl KlRIY: He <ame tn tht= home on l-'aMOVt:t, awi f ~-,me him a matto.-W.U wup, ROl KlltaY: They ch~ni;·ed hf~ Sup~nnau'$ head.
;wl he hate<! it. !Imrghlorj KIRII!f< W~l!, they ,
{I!Uh': I gtw:s mMZ<>-ball <O"P doe;n't agree wHh ""erybody_ Td• Thry had MUiphJ Am!mon mimw ali. ofyo;uT S'<f>m""'" lomtiJ, didn'llhq1
tO: !f11d y<>U .lm,.wn ln[ant•no fmO' 1<> Ins wniacl W!lh you I ROI kiRBY: Now e~erybody do~! Supunmn a. di!fetent way.
KIRBY:Yef, I did_ Infantino w-.u ~n artiM, and he WM alw'"Y~ a very good uti,t, ~nd KIRB'I'' They cut the he:<<it off my Superman. and then \hey rcpl~ced them With a
then he l><:am~ the editor and pub!~her of DC 1un<brd Supuman head
TCI~ Naw, whm Y'J'• '"1 pu had diffirolry tmlh M~>rwl, wn ~au dunfj whal J"" mrnnlry l{j~ [)ld lhcl l><tiJur ''"' 1
litaa Ki~IIY; Yes, it hothered me, of wune, b~taU$e a mao"' entitled to draw thin&:" ht hi5
KIR:IW: I'll d;<rify it by saying ['m basioally ~man. !'m ba<ically a i{Uy from the EaJll own My!e. I didn't hurt Supenn~n. I flt:tde him pawed"I. I adm,re SupeumU>, but
%k. I'm basi<<~lly" guy who like' toM a tnan, ~ntl if you 1ry to deprive me of h, l'"" got to do my own ltyl~. 'n--rat"• howl wm.Jd >~<"~it, and I h;.ci a right 10 do that,
1 ;;,n't live with n. Th.Jt'! what the mdw.lry wa• doing to me, ;wJ l had a gut-full and nobody hut tbe nght to tamper with )'Qt\r wml:. and ~hape it differently. What
>f !haL I coulcln't do anylhing lo=.! haJ <o get my•df;u fa.- away Wdl, >fhe gave it wan amateur! Think of what an ~mateur might do to your wocl<.
<!though Canrt•'ne w:u nic-e '0 me, 1 wa•n't having a gn·at time with him. He w.u TO• Luckif). th"Y umttld nroor de rudo "lhin1r- (Siltna) A Wtlr Jt>h.
-"' ~<h>l who d•dn•t know how to be an ~diwr or a publi$her. lt W"J.S hi! first jomt KIRIIY' {Ch,:khng} Yeo. L-et me say that~~~ 1he ~ditorial ded•ions coming down
With that kmd of- from :<dmini!tl:ation w~~en"t alw;>ys wi$<:.
<tOl KIRBY' fhn, ht- IP'~" you th" opporumily to do your uwn work ro: {L~"g/tltT] Tw~ puu!'"g it kind!}
i!R6'f, V.-~. he gav., m., the opp<JrtUnity to do Th< Nro> (;,t;, 3nd T!u Nm> (;.ub w:.s KIRIIV: Let me put it that way.
.Ktuaily "bk..ing tom;,; bec:nue i got olf on aJlO\her couu~. and '17~< N- Ga<U TO: Wilm J<l" rMth tM d~,;W,.n to go I~ DC, I as.-u= 1au wlkd up Man"'l and !Old
;nade 1alco for DC. lht:m !Mt pu wtr~ fuming !t.n.d /hal y(IU. wt"rm"t gving Ia de ""1 ""'"' work for thom. What
ROZ KIRBY: He had (Omp-lele control over the writing. He pid:.ed hi• GWJl io~r. WilE ~~~~ muti<m <II Mar-wll
He <<mld do anythi"g: he w.wtt:d. KlqBY: First of all. Marvel already had '-ery popular •trip$ going, and they didn't
KIIUI.Y: Y~ah. Nobody bothn~d me om het~, and I did Tht Nrw Gcth 1Ul oaw ·~m. I throw nny ropt:~ around me to hold me_ !twa! my dc<::i~1#o. Tney knew I was
.nd TM NN~ C&Uu! felt they should b~ don~ going to ma!<c it anyw<ry, and so l went over 10 DC to do 11-
rCJ: Wax tt a toup:h dumon to !;!> fnrn Marl!tltu DC1 T(J, S<> M<U'Vd did-n•t "ll<mf>liO won 1"'' bacH
!I.Ol KlRliY: No, beau..., he made mor~ money. They offe~ed him mort money. KIRBY: No, they didn't attempt to win m~ back.
KHI:!lY: DC wa. attuaHy like a ha~en became I w;u an individual there. I WM abl~ to TU: Hmm.
,lo sornething under my own name. In other wor&,lf I wrote, "Ja~:k Kirby" wrott IIOl KUUIY: They didn't c;u-e b"c:.we they had all these artists ,.,.;ting in the wingJ
·~- lf l dtew, "Jack Kuby"' drew it. And the truth w;u there, and I began to writt: and who drew like jack !Grby. Kirby imitators.
dmw, and! felt at iMt a ~ense of freedom. and Wlth the 1alts rhing from tho~ TO: How do Y'" fa-1 ahotll 1/u: pmpk wlul dan'l mndJ drt~.w du cktlrn<:tnl )Oil r:rrotni, IN. I
book\, my freedom ber;am~ more appa«'m to me, 3nd l feh a h~ll of a lot bener. duplil:<lk your wiwk <ty/t ar wpy Jrnm ym.< dn•GJr1
JA822
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31714 of 16
r !., !OMY< llhml lhey"r<: bftn)'il'lg

themu:lve-1. (don't lhonk thq-'!1 .-.ul.<:
"" l"'+'f<'ttlon fut -r- F.nt of aiL thq
<l~"rny th.-m..,....._ 1~ rk;:aoy thd.-
o\.-tl illl~e, Wh.u thq- <in a f"'tf"'IU~~
my lrn3ge, Thdr oWrytclHn~ it not
gning to lnlf>«J"" uln, «:> h""' mulrl
wp)'H•g my""""' h<:l!l ~"' m ~nr ~rr
There (~n·t bt: """"'J;•cl Klrt!y1 :utd
ta..,--.,r:>n•t be"") C.uMine lnf.mtlnN
•nd ther., ntn'r be r...ll Sun lees.
TO: Th.Jnl c...L
;, !(!MY: ~·r., .o.Jilndtvldwtls.

ROZ ~ A.nu:oJly, '"" HC~ ~ COfP1
<>I:> mip from~ yotmg l:>n, md capoet
.,f n--- of .:me oi J~d•'• old T~ ~
>nd tlum of oh<' """" T/w¥, Yoo Hft up
tl>e- p>g~ and lhey're ..._1uillty U;>~rt\.
~Y~•- They're do-mg- thflnow
Th"''''re- truing 11'11 figureJ:o.M tuing
th~m '" f'IU~Io. I::N-i even lf they 1r>o<:<:
ony figurel, 11 only comet out .. ,.).......-d
;n the p.llnd h~lf ln (l)nju-n<ctlon wlth
th" btclgro-u.nd ~nd tht:-1)1><' ofw:.ry
that o\ ;,_ I n.n td! y<>u my figurn :>«:
..,.-,:!) dn>....,, ~nd <he-fr~ '<>:ry Y.lkd.t-e-,
but doml!: tt '" m~yb<! Otle- "' two
p:o.ndo. lo not gom! to "'H that •W<'y,
:>n.-1 ililot'• •m•u:ur think•~- <>nd \(
Re-mbr~o1h "''"" r:lolnll': torn>e honlu-.
""d ! took on<: P"ture of Jl.entbr.mdt''
;nd put 1t '" '"cotrw;.boo\. ltOT")', tt
wo-uld make the enoire- it<>ry Joolt
~wk-.rucd, Th" r-ad;,r w<-".Ud b"
myouf~d. He-'d lot-e tud. ofhilo il<Hl'
and would kgm lo "'onde-r why thil.
!igure wu w dtfln-ent from dle- relt of
them. H you dirtnct U.... r"-<ier, )"<><-'
cannot tdllhe <t<><"y- You an't put
>n~thmg into I hat 1Wry 1~ d~n't
belong there. The :u-un'' ltfle h;u to
be true- to hit. own om>giouOOn, Jnd h"
h~ hlo"""" ""'-Y crf telHng: th<:
5\0ll', "-lld the rader -od:lte. ;ill th-U.
:>nd it m~k<'t it e:>$1tr for the- ru.der to
•bsorb. If you put any rlblti"3Ction -
)'JU un do it in ;om~}""' can do it !n u,., thnter ~ l( there il ;;mr OOZlllm': C.Umln., Infantino? (!.at<pltrl PtvW fi- 'No:. of
dim--..cuon thai lulu the uory Of' nuko:s tt look J....-k>nfd, lt'1!oie an Ktor tanYt Ul<" I ""-Y· there ;u-e propk ln editorial posjdofH tlUl. shoukln't ~ thtre s....--1:92,1967.
f~henng on ~Uge. He·t !"' t<:> ~et up :u quickly .,. r,., CIUl :..nd ~ot1tinuc the Thil ~u:d to be~ p¢riod .. hct"c Marw! ;ond DC~ relyi.n! on the- wrong J.W.loy~~
~nion ,...;mom tryinj!: to brnk up the- rnovem"m of tll<'l loCript. Thu'• ..tl•t f"'<>Ple in tht: right po:utlom. ~were the p<:<>ple Mho Wtte ..rong fO<" theJe
!uppem to :>n inle-t or:> pell-dller. To imit:>te romcl>ody d..e ,. to tnject
f><''"''"'~-
1ometlung .nto the <tory thu ..-il! di>tnct the re.Ue-r, On<::e you d.ll;tnct \h., I!OZ kiQ'f: Then. M;u-vd fi!Uily l:»d, wcll, thq oiTe.r>:d him even more money
r~lld(r.the •tory ha~ no point. tlun DC, md 1hcy !et you t=c tM fr«dom to do the Atne lind of book. that you
ru: y.,. _,.. JomrThe New Gods ftalm.U j,r OC Wl<4t l.tt! J<'" UJ Umor DC7 ~" dol:nr for DC fur ~l That'• when you did TMEumah. 201Jl: Sf<ta
K!JS'I: Lite: I i-<lY
""""'·
JA823
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31715 of 16
¥111!11: y,.~h, I dH.i ·">me f•n" w<nk lm MMvd !U: Did J"" find lhnl I~ b< a f'!rl/1 g"rui ttlal>mHh!pt
iiOl K!RIJY: lt w·a• lhU dte rnMtt! o! ~ KIRBY· It "'"·"a fru.trduug ub1wrul1ip huaU.\<: t>f th•t kwd nf <hing
~m"Y' I dld my "'"" •«>rk• ROl KlRIWt We h•d w fiNo" the ph<me 'onswmJy.
Rol KlRIW: It wa.s ,,n a m;,tter of inrnn1e, of makiHI( <nor<" monry KtRBY In nth~,. word1, •t'•
~ qu~stion of remmding peopk. l didn't hk" to bt" "'
rcr 1),,; )'""' "hii<UYuh'P ~·•II• OC d~lmumu "''" 11\r wunE 4 :;mtr •1•~1 thn•1 ·btp,~iti<ul
~!R!IY: \'rah, th~r~ ""'' ;t\way• all ~dit<>f who "muld opuare in the wrong {A>h><m. ~Ql KIR!IY: II wa.. <emh.>Hll~~<•g for"'" because I had 10 hantll~ the whole lhing
rhrr<" wN~ "'"'" rdimn "'"' weu '"ll aft-,.rt"H""'- If a guy l1 affenauom, h" 1
W''~'•J; w "'H'' ko<: Mt.h ~"'"- ,,•.,rk, ~nd he's g<HI!JI to want to \,,y •hat you dHJ 1h" lCJ: IVn,/d Y'" cmwdffihtH til k /"'lin 1ha~ ye"r bu_rztte>' rrlaliQ~Ihtp '"'t.O Marwl and
wo<k, hut he thd th~- crr~t>on. ln oth~r wo<dt, h" nlllue!1c·ed the etture- nc ""d h<»~J ym• '"""" lrmud1
tCJ: F'""kh, f th,ught Jffl',.- lmr rto"t rtt M!!wd "''" "ltu!~ h<>lfh~art.-d- n,., F.t~m~h KlRI!'f· Ther.: ,...,te no p~r<onalwo mvdv~d. They treat"d me m.e a human b~mg
,,d 2001: Spare U<Jy,;ey '"'d ;o fimh l!c~m~d thl"m hke human h<'!l\!fl. On a perwnal :.,vd, <h~re w... no probkm,
RQ[K!RBY:Yeah, b<:came H w;o! ;tO ;dtetlhDUflhL Aftn h" d><l1kNroJ IMJ.:., whM <Jn d finanual !evd, it"""'
a problem !lf r"g.llariry.
mm" could he dol ROZ KIRBY: J"n"t~ Kahn h"" dlways been very kmd to us :md wh"n IDC: '""-'I
ldo ~>1/td.,uwu:, fll(hll -'pproached 10 do rom\! W)'1. thcyw~m~d to do som" N(U! Gxiffiguto, and she
ROZ KIR!IY: ."'-->> ~mklunu. (affit! ;,., on" day- ;he w""
at thl" lkvnly Hi1k Hot.,l- and we h~d a muting
T("J /ri """'*l"" 1/t,- '" tit• '7()< uohm )''" """'~""''*i"!!P"DC"nd~ou WO"nfM<k I<> t~±lh h"~• "'"<.1 >h<! u1d, "L<>t>k, W<! know '<hat Mar"""! ;>lW~)'$ did to you. Ynu were
.\Jarw( M 1'"' lhmA mu. "-""' "'~"' .1WfiT~ '>{ ·p:mr ndm•rtnnH p.mthm Ia puhi<Jh<n <ioffl ~iwa~ getting •n.,..,.,d all your hfe, ;wd w~ want to b~ fa«. w~ k~l >hat you
;),,n J<>U "~~ prrhap< pam~u,iyt • •~a!ed thi•, ~nd Ihat you ~hoo<!d get ~om~thing mu of it." 'fh"Y wert" v~ry nke
k!~IIV: y~,. ;~nd lih I uid, J"d had a bcll)"full <>f hemg sub>:c~Y>ent ! had to find :tbout it. We had mt" "'~"""¥and th~y w~r" very fair ahomn.
V•ln~thnlj{ ds~ !<J <In, and I dod ! w<'n! UJ the anima1it>n hou""~ [Ul Hrilly«'OOdl I KIRIIY; And they •uU a,...,. Jenette Kahn ts ~fin.., pen.;on. On occWon we'll get w
"~"' tu new fidd~. I d<d what I •houid have dune 111 th" h<:i! pla~e. J<>e Sim;m N.. w Ynrk. ~nd rn ~,.e j"neue Kahn, and'""'!! ha"" ~ wm>derfu.J time. Sol think
,,~m b~~:k U> (Ofll!ll<e<d~l an. and ft.., fotond hu pla~<e m life !he tumi<; fidd ha$ gained 1n that tespecL
ROlK!IIIIY: H,. ~lwap waou·d H:> go 10 llo!!ywt!<>rl ROZKliUIY: At le'Ut $h" had hun, l~t't put !lthat w-~y.
KIRIIY: ! wanted m go w Hullywoml. md I fioally did KIRil'f; Wi•h that kind of managemt"m, a dr:al am!d be mru:k "ll a humane level.
T(Jo }flu 'u "l.<n 11-im-n "'"""""/. ROZ K!RII¥. We were very dose to Juli~ Schwaru;. We lo\'e him. He rlriV<'$ "'mill,
K!RIIY: I'm a guy who had to perform wrn<' way I had 10 pc• fOfm m rome way lf but we love h1m. ( L..wghlo:r)
wH .._.,.,,~nor. rd pt'dorm ~au a.c;L h wquld h3v" h~.-n wmNhin!; 1ha! "'"''ld K!RDY: 1 alway. had ~od rdmion~ wuh jlllk S<hwaru:. Mumy Bolrinoff.joe
be OUUL'Hl.ding lfl IU (;Wfl way. Odalld.;o,
T(J: Can f ,.,k 7"" t~ha P" '""" dfflli"l! .,.,;, ul Marvd whrn j"" wml bad>. on th• lO<r TO: Lrl me ruk you ihu: L<>ukH>g auer J<>Ur /;fo'• W<»k,. '"~you plrmed wilh wlu/1 )""' lM
{hd J<>'' h.ntt "" <il•tor lhnl pt< u~ dlft!ling UJ~Ih1 i'rn n,;t =•
t[Sitrn 'IJ!hmt dm;$1 At"t JG1' '"ti'firrU
ROZ Klii.8Y: jack J"'! wrot.,, and he had tnt own h<mks. H" didn't h;o.~e an e<hWL KIIISY: l know 1\.., done quit~ a bit. l know that in my hung~r for mJJ<.ing a living,
~l!l.!IY: Yt"1>,h. ! m•!,illt have cr"ated" few mou~l~!~ Maybe that's natunL I drnr't know. But I
ROZ KlRI!Y: Mike Rnyer did all the inking h<:<<'. w,. \rnt them a complete p-..cbge can tdl you that Marvel wu my mak;ng, and I can tdl you thai DC ""ver !on
KtRIIY: y.,ah. w,. ~em them & compict" pad.a&~ ~nything from any of my wnrk.
TO; {A, ,Ybt< 4"11""' lmw J""' cffihauon ""t.O !'mafic U>>M ahll,.lt TCJ: C!t<lliv0< howdiJ J<'U Jal ~bi!Hl your r.urwt
K!Rll't> Well, it Gtm" ahot>t nonnaily. ! heff<U' muting pt"ople at cml.venuom. ! met ~IRB'f: Cn:ativdy, I've done welL Cr~ativdy, l'v~ n~w:r dnne a<>ything-
the peop!" lmm P~nfic. ROli!IIIIIY! You "'"''e :uhamcd of.
~Ol KJIUIY: The S<:ha.nt"s brmh.,n. KIIIIIY: Not being ;uhamcd uf, bu1 I've never done a.nything bad. I can't do
K!IIBY: Y~ah, lh" Schan"~ br<,.hen ~nything bad. lf• got to be profn•iona!. If• got to look profe:W.nnal. I($ got to
IIOlKlRIIY: 111")' ask~d.Jack if he W3n!~d to do boob for tht"m. This w:u at~ nme read profeMiona!. In mher words, it,...,~ i~ purpose by em.,rtainmg a reader,
when Jack n(:Ver got any roy:liu~. ~ncl thry "-''lid ht"'d have complete cumrol and see/ !I a carpt!nter makes a ~hair that'~ comfon:>.ble for the person who'• going to
he wnu!d get h15 roy:.hi"" min it, he'~ done hill job. lfa uain ""ginc~r g~~t a trnin in on time, h"'s going to
~~~BY: On Captain Vidvry. I gO! roya!t'~~- make 'om.,one happy who's W<~iting at the station. And if;w ;artist dnws the Jtind
ROZ KlRIIY: And they •~id, 'D<.> Y"'" h;w~ ~r>ntht"r book for ust• So Jack said, "What <>fa pkmre \hat people ~re going to enjoy looltiug at, or he make9 a visual story
dwuld l doi'" H" had a 50·p~g" Jynof»!l for~ TV show or~ "'"';~. Sol ;a1d, whi~h people are going to enjoy ruding, he's done his job. t r;an ""Y that l'~"
"VoJhy <lon't you jour tf<ke this in and br<"ak 11 down into the comic hook." So don" my job "xtretnely wdl. My only beef is that a lot of pt"opl" bave put their
•<.wally .'i•iuer Slar""U the Horyboard for a movie. f.ngern in what"""' l've done and trico<.l to l(rcW it up, and I've al""l'l res~nted
TCJ: f <n. NtJW how d•d thai!.Wii<mSh;p """""'cat' th;•t. l always rcJent anybody irm:rf.,ring with anybody ~Is~ trying to do his job.
ROZ Klrurt: We had to tall evt"ry minute- "Wl'"'"'~ th" mnney? Whcre's t.h~ Everybody ha:t his own job to do. If he'• good, he'll do wdl, but if h~"s m~diocre,
chedt?" "It'< in rh,. m3i!: [l.a,.glttn] he's uot going to do as wcU 1l!l he d\{}uld..l belie'o'"e that I'm in a thorough,
I(!IIBY: Sh~ r~membeu a l<>t more !han I do prufeulonal dow who'll giV<! you tb" best you can get. You won't get any beuer
~Ol KIRIIY: llut 1hey mu3J!y, fin~Uy, got il 10 m. than me stuff that I <:'.Oil do. ln !Ju, Army, during the Waf'- whkh my wife won't
KIRBY: Yeah, they fin~!ly got il to""· but t;>lk about- [l..rwgh.tl'l"j I didn't know whether I'd make it or not, but I can tell
ROli(!RJY: W"'re stilt friends, ym• that I did my very levd bett, OK? And that, mm:d or mx, I did my job, and I
JA824
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wwJd do my job~ I al:!l, If I IQd to,._,

~ np 1ft1 tit"' iot' my &mJqt. I ~·r ~ •
minute, and ill hlld (C) d() ~lot:&~
frieno;l,lwouldn'the>ol~:a~.I~'tuk
arty~ u Ill I'm tJut lt.ibd of • guy. I'$ a.
IM'.t.o'll M lt. Hyoo .U.bihl to)dc.it,lll:ld h<'r
WVrlf to It, ,.ou'l! f4t • lull~ J'w ~
dt>I)C ~mr ~· u•, !MrChOfl mr
ttml:kl did welL It'• lh.f: I'I2IOf'l JlJ'/ ~ ~
~'Well.Ia.:r.'tdo~~IWM'tdo
~bad. Md I ti!:II:M '1'tJ7 dccpfy bad pwpie
..tlo ha'ieta't sot the abil!ty, ~try(() intcrfffe
.nm the kind Q('lf('llil. nn ~«~do~
~·Ps w ben.dltlmrll it. U}")tt'"' a
~~.mdtbey,.,.ou'tlet,-do•
~job. fl<lbody'~~t(> ~FM<. iL
Till:~ whQ prodgtt it WQtl't 1>eDc:$. 'The
~ wbo buy it -·t bmdk from lt. Thq'11t
Prl! top II~ prod'.Kt. and I~
that'a what the ntworiti po:op~& meonUa u that
tiQul hooJb.L Tbq b<:>uJht I ~ pn>duct.
and I bdkore thH'• whU ~pin ,.,..tum. They
got~ returoJ.
....,
R:OZ lllll!t H:l¥1! }'O'tl beffl AtiR!ed wid~ what you'""'
kllllll'r ~ 1 been.~ with~ r·~ dortcl
"" """'lfJ'w:
lliRift: done k ~' J'M.....,.. bee:~!
~ lf~lf!t.<l:rfered,l.t:.l:w:l)t~ ..
bad~ll'lmrlllt,.
,__,
TOt AIWtllWtM-~ ~;m«J;..
lllm'll be&ve l>fbo:n I - . p;Wen fuU rem on n,

N .. <*h. 1 - p.en lull r6a Oil 17w Na. (Ads, ~
I-~ Ml rdn <'In MisW ~ MUt. Mad.
- a fine rtrip. I - ~ full rdn 011 llDilf odler
.suipl...&kb k>ld ~..eU Uld ~-wry
happ,o. I - tv.ppr ~ dt.ea! ~ lb a
P\"~ you'Y~~~ toe~ tab tM cndlt ror if, nr
you',., 1f04: ro W:o tM ~ f<>t k I don't~ .o
tUt a beatiDt Mtbottt bdn8" ~
l'CJIJWdmct-U.Iab~-'s~
~ ldoa.'tW»t ~ tlrb~dte't ~That
lllUal me ~ So, rlgbt ~I an 11:11 JOU. I'm 11.
~- be:aalstl~rmdol:tJ&, ldob"~
do • titlk ~ ben: and tho= roc oda&. Mil
;o00 I
lheywtrl:.Ol;l{""""1wdi I kcllioe :ul ~--
.od r-- This-slbe Hndaib!lnJI ~~
'rob~ ~ get !bu. W:1. l o::dS IWd;r F lhM ill .
!he -JJ-p;ut o[ Jtlrf Ilk.
TCJ: 1 tfi!al - J'«1« ta .-/y 64 IML Y.- 1rcw"
ftPtf<Jr,iL
~Yea. *
~,.,_,....,._~· 151A.
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EXHIBIT 42
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What would a
Lee & Kirby Issue
be without the
Fantastic Four
being heavUy
represented? You
won't find out
here, as we
proudly present
a batch Of Jack's
penciling wiz-
ardry from FF
Issues #89-91'
complete with
Kllby's margin
notes.
,I
Fallfaslfc Four
I
1189, page 10.
CONFIDENTIAL MARVELOO 17976
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Page
EXHIBIT 43
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INTERVIEW I
"THERE IS SOMETHING STUPID

IN VIOLENCE AS VIOLENCE."
Conducted by
MARK H£BaiT
The followi1g lnt.I'Aew, condUct<d In <Mly 1969, orl!!lnallY appeared
In fsstm 130 and J1 ot Tht: Comics ..lot.Jrndlrs predcc:e5SOr, The;
Nosa1JSJo- (N<wember end Dttwlb<r 1976). Kirby hod just
n10Yed from New York to ~ tJMd his stint M: ~ Cornk:s WM
winding dOwn.
lHl COII«S JCII.IIIHAU Wbt ....- t!W fin~ tHoU ...... 'j(lfl«W QJ1
MeliCMIYt c.e~. tfutt- _,.~it w.. th:inf called Will a.,~ It-~
by Will EW= 1n ~P wir.h a DMn named.Jr:ny 1gu. r ~ u:ndeT • 11'\.eA! at
~I rtill lu.>oe •00!'1· MJ' ~.-.! il.
K.tt lint ..u -.,... tAn~,
kiiiDl I - J.bout 20 or 'll - •rourtd ~.
TCit H~ aMrlJ"><T ~ r,. arit
kiUftP~f'm:o.Ocp! tie aa_~UJl~fOOn!wthePnallutiuMin
No:wYtnt.. Wto!U, I ftruRd, ·Hen·•~ I'll make it." '-.!I -!hen! only one daymd
the~ hlt.l've ~:I~ tNet .rince.. [~
TCio ~ dJ&,... 1tUd;.:. s.·-r
IGitl"tt ~~met ~clse in rballdd. Tbe!Wd -m • ~ m.~
E~ Wllll ntnnifl!" uound 'oOCrl<i:ns foe~ ebe. l met}oe Si1non. I lnet
~ d$e. Ml)'One rou could thin1 oL- )'01.1 ~ 1M oM~ WiMn l ~ •
f~ ro do,l'd kUJOC! ~it, and .men be had tbnln: 10 do, he'd tell.neabo<niL
Then he~ edktw(J[Adu, wbkb- ~Mane!. I-~ Wl:ll't.~ ln<f
~Ame.ic;o,_, ~n. Thu-wnl940.
lCJI Wl4t l«t <iiii1"'1.W... iN amtin( ~ A.m.:-1 HtJtJ> &i it~ ~t
d:IYt Wcll, I un't tdl roo bowie~ abo.u:bmrowa ~and there~ 1ep1
~~I an't WI Worn it. b:l::ept that-...:~ botb.ln~ Ink. And fOU
know lhe wu wu lhapil1( up. ~e wu bUIJ'na' = ~ l'llnlrally i t -
MARVEL0017190
CONFIDENTIAL
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Page
rut - ..,_ fr- ~rt<14l"'- ld> V<ry ""· ~ """"""""'".,.- ~ W EC hnt oltll' /}u, iJb- .,..,.. "" th~ rw, ~
ntni Oh lU~, 1~ tu,d to You know, f">rt drd j"'l< fk'JT
there ...... r~ ,., m.ny C:tpl3.illl th=: Kllrl'! luy to Uep ...,m,, <:e-ttain nandudo. In otl-u:r wor.U, I W<.n'l go t..-h>w
~pu.n M:u>'et (~pt'<in !hu, D.puin them wd I on'\ s:o dx>"'" th~ onlall becom~ mtdlee-~111!ly gmenred m .orne
"""Y "'do~ dif(n<"n1: t'j-'f>" of torJ't!c My b:a~t "•uf>"T't':toei ~nd I don't d~im 10 do
·~
TU IJ !tad t.rJ bt .. Capt...,._ ~nythl"!!: more oc !..-. B<lrl do wrt~ • g"'->11 ..ory AfiCI i-l'lrny ot\l:y dd..rue ~n•t
llllh'> We'u: no< getuu""' by ;u,y mcuv, .or>y.;>-ne e~. 5o wr,.,n th-e honor contlu c~me out ~rtd- fof' truta.nce, when the
but I !lu.perl the dur.oclff mdf and I EC gr01>p nme 01."-, th~ were ""''Y gt><>t:l. Vny cruti...,, ""'7 good, en~p! fnr ont
p.-e: it !.he fonnula -- th" ~cri-o:>n thing; rtH:y ....,re l""""'! twd nuybe \he-ir t(\o of good ta.u.e or ,t,.,-uiardo mrght
futmu!J. ~ ~Cii<U(t nothmg a.-QUJlfe !lt!:t~l;tl.e.l went IU ~ ~olkgt r~enU, lrl>er,. ~ hd ohO'i<nl
r~:lltr m<l'!'ed. I had a b;oc~ound m me • ~e thJ.t l bcing: mold ~r. \<!Ould ccms\der pornagr::t~phit:, hut 1-0
...,hna.tion and I cre-:~<~d the follow-<1p htm it ,....,n't_ I gu= !1""" th, ~with f.-C They WM~t t<'lld ~ tr~t!vdy wild --
~~<:tlon, l<flllch nu= of th" >trips had. lo un the florror •wft They wouid h.a.'ftl "- ~f'UI'.' •pend "- -d:.en.d Wlth • ghoul
ot.h(r ~ =oth~ smp ~ht b~We and they ret ltlO'l"boo.ond io"l a abm, 10 how do they 1unwd You oe-e whal I meu~l
<me action in ll1U p;v~d wd ln So thr:y ohooo- the s:hooul dlOmpiDf on the v:unpl..., :ond the vunp;re tuddntc rhe
anreUted ...aion ;., •nl>t""r p:n'lel, blood of the ~~:tmut. A lo-t of propfe miJ:ht hke that ltJnd Df thin)(", hut W p:trM>'--'
"<herQII I ~ lave a conW.o.wus lhlf of \he lub r.uoai a h.cd. of a hoe :md cry, opc(ully ...,m lhll tur [FI\'dru]
~hL tf I. guy' pvned "" ""'"uld foUow It Wntham, So, 11.-ad to eompt~ with th:u •nd the only >n)' I coulod ......_. to .-.ile
11p wit:h a. thruol:. A vill;o.Jn \lo't:IUld throw a bettB" ltnrio, ;wd ..,mehoof my boob hpt op with them.
<h= :ot h~m., the feUow .........Ud duck. ! put out• book called Bt4d: M.got:. which w;u ll heel oi a good b<:wt.
under the w.:>O<i or the Vlllain'l foot, and ;lnd it roid very -.11. When the hue utd cry g:ot louder, EC bo~ the bruni of it,
~'Kk I~ fn ail thfff" d~d001. So it whtch I <h-ougtot""" fiK!lt, d.esplte tile f.lto:t that I r~opected thet!l hl~hly. Th~
101JUid ~ive the llfl!> 1 httl<: rnout>n ;ond it wete J'l'U"! guys, ere.\~ guyJ -llo-ooe ex~rimmten- I .k..n<:rw th~m. ,.U -....d. I
r---.-e >t a l:ind of fonn:.t. 1"'-'C' them :oU, but I r.hink thlU thq left thenudve~; <1l'= to • lot ol trltidlm. Th.:at
lfynu h..., a ~n<:e W i<:>ok. at the :and :a lot Df mh.!r ililog:l; Ufen~ them. TI1e di.<tributo,.. W'CJUidn't h<m<l~ th~
old m'IJl'S. rrndl n.<'>tice \here ue no t.ocoQ- the-y l"'ndk<l• mmimum, of cow-= 'Niten pe-ople didA't h:ove ~uet
backgr«mdt m th~ ln<l the entire thing conc~ntr:o.\1:'1 on >.<-tion. It's 1lmo.t hke from othn .......-ca, <hey couldn'touc......., ~nd the boob fold~d Si.mpt.e :u Uut.
They rri<"d gimmi<:b lilt !.0. I don't tn.,.- if you r-.:me-mber thwe, bu< they ...,.-e
'""""'
AfUt
lti> f{) Unt.o t{D.pWn Nn."nc:l. yet< ilfJ. .tiM~ ,....r •u-!Uly v-rnudu. YQ\1. Clfl't re>.d :a 3--D OOal every O>Oflrb, you'll go blind.
!OQYo Y~. Joe u\<1 I went w work with DC. ~did ~"and.&, c....-.w.;. !Ln.-pur!
We hul """ thint Q./Jed Tit• N~ ~ wlud:t-" pte try' nl«! hule Urip
Bcfol'<' J kfl. 1 <:r<:"''ted Y.,.,., Au;,. W.. All'"- wllkh \n! • f"'trlatk nrlp u•d ltiRn> Boo, you know, it'l jtm :a toy ~lly, no mO<"e than !tut. It CoHldn't rom pet-e
actu.o.Ur ~the frm te2<1> unp- m oth....- ....,.-do;, fuur boya. FoHowi"! thal, th~roe with 1 Ci.nemaKo~film. Let':a f<Ke it. o.>rma;.. ;l OO'IHtimcmku:al m.editun
w::u f=t ~nythlng: four bay1, tOur sirW. fow- rupuvi!Wm or w~ It whue;lf. ~ h:u""'"' <limen.riorl to tt., more depth arul it movet futer.
!Kcut>C \;ll\d of"- 1um thi113 ~nd h rni!j;l:>l h"-Y-e ~ lllrld o.f prim.iti'nl II'• m.or<ellfd~t and the more lifellltc It"' the more impuued )'00- uc with til<!
prcl~(eao<' to rhe Fam»Ue Four. h~n bd'~ I cr~1M th~ FF, I c~d !he
Oo.rul~fl!~n fo{W Unk...,...,.],>ihich-
II.IUYt. Sure. ltwed ttl I ..,_, !t frot~~ aledmkillfl'l »twpol.nt. from that mwpoint
IOM'fl And If you not.k~ rhe u.ruforms, thq''r~ t~ n"""_ll Und oi g.. u 10 ~a it'• poerlect. I to-d tht ntwtie and 1M concept wu tMrifk. A lot of J:W"lplc went 10
habotualthlfl(- My idea of :o ~ itl w..,.. guy who .;:on enpge h>. "-Ction. 'et it wd lhetc,... :a 'lfitk n<i<:t'J' ol opmion on it. I UlY it as ._ "'.........- :m.d lik~ it
,-'end you c:on't en~e it> uti<m ln a bu.offi~,., wit w ( ~~w:trt ~""" ~m :11. ilintJ~I u a~. :o.nd.l !'<l:ltode my 0\fl\ rc:ason, in my mind, u to wturt the ending munt.
mufor"" with 1 l>elt. Ncrw I de~ tllcm up. If you ~. the Cl!;Uiengcn :tnd the !think th:at'•..tw. .....,...,..,..e'• ~to do. So, for myJelf!t beomt one thintc.
FF h:o....,,. m;J'limum of decontion. N:t.d. of cou~. !he Thing'• lhn itl" l<.ind of bm to" loot of peopk the en dins ba:.r.me .anw:thiP-I'i ebc bea.w<: thq
deco-ndon, b<e~kmg up the tDOnotony af !h.. blue unl(orm. Bu-t th.!n Bb.d1. Book I interpTeted !t dlffe,-,ndy or had thdr oom '<'irion of""""'--" It might be. I think thu
bcg-;~-n 10 drn~ up- the 1ighlnl.ng i~~ R:orn:ok with the JudQ.(ype unlfun:n. w:.o Kubrid.'1 tll.lent. My oon bought the 21101 ~ibtlm :u'>d tht music !~ renUk. J
tt'• aiiUOJl Orienul"-nd hill-E~n, and Mcdu,. whh h-er lu.lr.l helP"' to drfta c:on futen to it :oUtl>e ti.IM.
:ill of them up. !n r..:-r.. when I gO( 10 wm~u~<. the: o.u1tfl::ofrm -r>: w on'<tte t.M.t I TC.Io Mwi< 1D ~;,.
couldn't remember them. l h1d l-0 ~ a .t.etdt by IIJflide :oU the tim<:. I c:ol~d ~No, )")'ll know -wlut I do whtn 1 dr-..w11 put on the TV l-d •nd tom th~
the office .......--y ...:ek fur~ I fnrsc.t the co.mn=• all the time. lD-tmd oil, and then put 0t1 the r:adio, Utd 11"-ten 10 tM ..clio md wuch TV
T01 Du SJ-- Sl<f/n-- jlill ~ ~ h.orl). :o.nd dnw ;tt <he ume timt -It'• lite lu.ving compllny •t thl'-' An'lt tim~. And
KJUYt 11>4 $ih'tr Surfer lllimple- the s;une with Spider--M:tn'• eye:~, which 'lfflu't ~ I know everything they'n: g:oinJW u.y on TV- I mean, whllt thl'-'
~ ria1e had to the V>Ji.o.n.l d01:1.'t mo.. If you eooet .._.,. tht Vtslon I trea'-"d hell un !My gy th:at's !:olng 10 wtprlst :rou? A lot o( i:h(' nmpy ~ I've
for l.be old Al]:u mag. whkh IQll, I think. :U tiWI.am-e time Capt.tU. AN<ntD- teen befor-e.~ lltn.,.- what !logan a going 10 ..,.. h'l ridicu!nus jult to !loten
out. l1t1 the pauem for rhe ey~ ..tUcb :u-e kind ol myW.c_ ro l:h(' dlalogul'.' OY<:f md o"'"r >.pin. So I jun w.uch the mo.'ie b-eca.w.e it'l
JA831
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-14 509514, Page61 of
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Page
;r1methln~ to d'l, It P''''":l~• ~ hule toll1!»-!1Y for" lonely Job, I gua~. Su ot'l f:U!!1JI: TO \hlnk
llke 1 little worlri 1n ltulf !hat,,., o<J h~
TCh H,_fh,...JM <>lrn<l tl"""Krttlm.n~T he otOft't KcejX
kli'lfl'liC"- >thlCh I fuik>-..lhatlo:.id
Uunlc it" !,"l:><>d lhing_ The hmnry nf com10 u ~ "''ry impon~nt thmg bec;o...,., 11'1 bee~~ be'1
~ oned!um like n.dtO, fV ()t ffiOVI~·- lt't t,_,_,tt her<:~ Ju"g Uu~. ~nd p<:<Jpk It~"" ?,011)~ !<)buy
"'Pf>lied enterulnmenr 111 thit 1lme lhn:mgh ~ gener:t,Uon ol h<h. ('_..,nel"al !)!~· (umiU.
El<Cnhowe-r tr.>.<kd comlu wuh the ~ldl-en durin!!: W W 11 5o ev<'tybody relKI n,en: Me um~
c.orruu. Some pcopl" wun't .orlmu Jr. wheren01hen ..,u ["""""go
TC-it 8111 fNof!U don 'l Mlu U .,_,- .o ,.,,dott"' a.J }'<1/ail,.U, f'"'>l .U lV cr fiW. ""'J-'ond hiOL
Jo:»n It h....,., g01 tM '""f><"- ht-c:>ul'C ulum't b<otcn explmted to lhllt extent. l!l Now...nert I d<d
other WO<'di, tt ;.,'t ~ howehold ;,.,,.,hi:... 'TV or udlo. 'IV""'' imponu.t .. u,., Sll!EJ.D, l hOld
bathr<X>m now_ to go fM:,--r~
TC,h H"W ~ ,.,,_ lutmmt r.. tltt ,a<JUJ flatllll<-1 utnu:nd Mro1 ;·.--arskyond
Kb'!\ Yeooh. JlmM Bond. I
TC-" 1'1lo•."< ttM ,.,dJ goo.o: ~""tho taim _ , _.. couldn't :><<:ept
~ Not good rtnff. bu1 jtnt the u.m<: •luff_ In <>the.- """do, you don't hur fl.utld, but he
~"yth"'g re-li'..mif!! :s.ncll'll uh ~ knod:. ;>$ wdl n ~ bo~ • kool<. oc • nuon31 W<lj the b'lf[
rno\JlJUS( for:~. dung<". Ute iuclfit tole"~ tn,...-,e; it'J g<>~. to k-:e-p 1l'>OYlng. tt'~ lj:OI to '"W'· SW£LD
ke~p du-nginjf. Ther_,·, ><>dl • ~rtety of f"'Opbe, ~Oll WM>t w knaw !JKm :>JL '-"4110""'
O<>ll 't get rnt: .....ung- thet<" ~re <om" I wouldn't ""'nt ro ~et.. [ L.tu~:J.u.-J &, )>'lttnneclon
<duo-.e liU ll!}'•:>•"" elt..; be c<rll<lilioned Iii:... :.mybody clU!_ Thae ar~ •orne !'-1)-'S 1heru~
who ""Y· "I want to n:peri<-n<:e .,....,rythtng." and they get thetnJt:!Ya into it hole ~ge-nt. jwt ll~
~nd ~y nm't t.-t Dill- I'm jmt not th~t ~-I'm klnd of~ con't'ffl-l!Otl.1[] type. J;umo .Bond.
re:>lf)c But I do loh ~ d.__,nge m vin<>ng and li:Uenin~- l'tl run 3 cemo.in g:.muL Bulj:ut)a
I'm wnditioned to cuuln Jhin~- I'll react t<> thin~ whnl they get IO<l Wild for
Bond """""
me, :md wn.t m.y 0.. otlld for me m~y I>C' con=ntion:ll for~- It't the ~. :utd Jlu,d
~lnlO<phere you lo'o'(; "" or h.tv<' betn r~d In, I reali~ 1hat !'m a produtt o( IOgQbqond
cenatn conditionoh~ wd I'm goml{ 10 rem"-tn lh~t W;f;)'· I nn't do mherwile, I fed him- that wu
tfat every hunan being IQ! ..,.,.,., lo:.ind of ultimue point of no tt!Ufn, ...na., you mr job. I had "'
;u-e whn :I'JU ...-e wd th~t'• 11. You knaw ,f :rou become K>m-e-thing eke expenment
lt'lthat }'04.1 ha-..e to <o;;ty'"' •.h<lt ~If you"re not crmrlidoned to <l<\y W11h thing~, I
in thu gro::><:M:, thu'• it for you. \ca..'U eith.,.. haY<:~ nnYOW br.,akdo""' n-r 8""' h <ld to !aU 0<\e
"ck or get !-mo trouble_ ThQt'! what I fee! """'ld hoppen to me of l Woke out ol le~p be}'OI>d
my gwo-""• 10 I clon't. [)on't get me ..-rong.l don't put OOwn anybody in u,.,;, J-llonoL
own gr"""" ~atn<" t.lu.t'• the polmto ""hi<:h they IQ"'l conte. I on·~ change !I;
c~n't ~h~nlf~ thtl't ~k. th~rn out of ~rtything,
,_Bond
E"'!ry lime a
ru. Ajln W EC ,\p, t1un ._ lillh rupmw.n ~ &d: JAm 1"t'-- pl(CtiU" ume
J(8y, lnero: w.~::~. I tri..a ~ <tnp c.tiJ..d Figha"K A-.ir.m. It w;u ~ ,:;,ll:r., ;md 1 h~<l a DUI, I h!l.d to
b;..J! wlth h. But by that time, til(, 'h<k wu on ~nd ;ill th~ outflta Wtt~ foldmg havo: four or
t!:Upt for ~ few. OC and lrhrvd h:ad othe-r re-venuo- they oold pulpa :utd fivo: gi:mrnicb
p;aper~d boolu, ;md kept the of corniu going. The..,....,-., a lot of othtr outf.-a in._ ftory....tll<:h
that fokled ~nrl eerulnly I wu with the WT=lf outfit.! f L.aupur]l ri<Y.md>:red Ilk" woolda(k.w~
~'YOfl"' eO... did, so f r~tumed to the big a..tll~S- Th~t'l when I did CJus!ln,gn< of reader- to"""' IO!Uethlng differ tnt than james Sond. lfllud the l::lnd of simmlcb
1M [JUn.,.... f<X lX:. Ar1d from DC. I owitcl!ed to M:u¥o:l. ]"-me:l 6oad uoed. thq wouldn't read (]}., comic.
TOt Wiry ftd (1-iU liM/ tofl*i omd ...... ~t TCJo Thtsl's ""'J &d>rid iJ JO f'«U- Ao'1 ~In<,_,. ""-J !If }W lilfW.
~ Th~ wu no txperime:n~Uon. Nobod)' wao e-xpoimentiug. The only KMI"'\ Oh )'<'3. of coune.
e•perim=~O<t wu the <nJlT I d!d. Th~r" _,..._no ruch thlng:a ~• nntUnce boob tC..T4t'J;~~·,~~
until! bepn w W(l,--k. on tl.e:m. S=, U...t'l :llll'vo: ~ doln!f oil th~ ye:on- lillttr!'< Kubrid inje:ctJ hfrruelfinto.....t-....tevu he doe&. Hhe 00.... • ~cOOn
~;tperim>::nting with new Rulf. f feel \.lu.t the JUperbetoetl ha""' a w.>:y JO JI:O <lr>C'aoU$t.: the-y mlghtRop ~Ute ll'IO'Ie1 on pri;<e(lgh~ movie, you'n: ~"' Jee a Kubrld priU:Jl!httt All of his mO'O'i.el
md = n<l'IO' wh1k-·~ Wkin~ hne; yuu'n1 growln!fo.ld ~00 yout kid brothe-r'• an: sry\hed ~ Ditho bas hiJ ~ •tounp on his omri:..lfyou ~._Ditko
;de;ts might p.-c-n.il. WhateYer J"l'U"'Y1=< kid brothtt 1Y011't lUten to becatne he'• dnwinf, ~knew it'l Ditko. Tiu.t'• my point: Whaum:r you W(lrk. on- it
JA832
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-14 509514, Page62 of
Filed 02/25/11 3175 of 12
Page
III-WI
c-,1-
ftltf Uilla ,._,
n..,
-~n
rlrocm'1 ...-~n h.J,,... oo t.... ~~ICJ- It lhoutd tu .... w-mcthing of yom on tt. IOIIa'fl '[he mon cMmfo:ol pl!oyn'l b"-tting "'""~ may be pnuy b.o.d, bm people
bo41ioc ,., .. yO<l em r~~!lt do in hf~ it k...-e ~ littk ofyomxlft>ehind. 'J'hat'1 ,.Jl M;o~
1'1\ott will \nb:h. Mlc.kf')' M<u\tk wu no !f"<tt otoUn M "- ~lpbyu, bm lotid.q Matrt!to
I
1n ~ -"oall"'~t. nuyt>e m a b-t~ way Son'""® it it'l a~ way,""""' In :rn nil~ .....,.., Ml.d.cy Muak_ Proplc would o;amt: to"'"' him for 1ome reuon. 1',. I>Qt a
,.- ..-l»t we cill ~L Th•t. I think. tJ the p<:>lnl of W -.-fwM, •h-tboo:nif. You wmc, M.u>tk bll but l knaw ~hom hl:nl, aM 1 krlow ~ talk ;tboot him to I itnow
)'>U coo01bute ;J, lhok, lea., • hnl~ It m•y .rot~ 1'<>1Kh but ll'l """""'thirtt :tnd !hue- I<>IJicthing :ob<to.:ot him th::l.t ~Ude tum tlistlrKtt.-e. In "'1 d:.f it ..u.l.ou
II
oh~t'llt_ Wtt.t m!l<'e un you do ~<~!hm rour own Hmi!M If you're~ to do Crt"hriif.- S.~ Rulh ;md S:otct>el P;oige • ...-l>o """'"" re:illy fl'"""l ;and u !(ood ;u :ttl)'
m(ll'e, try ot I ny 10 do 11 in <:Offtlel. lgl"<' the mou I un t.a::...- I k.el that b~p-lo:ryn l e"~<tt hnnl of ~ me>:> wa~ dutin<:tivt"; thq ho.d ,_..,~ uod
[W:<>pk won't uke ~n~ leM. h'1 like comba!, rulfr. tf J'OU W>p. you're dnd, ""' rou wlut~ they dld .n tht- ~e, a..,. d>d ..,_ pcnonaJuie~..
Nid F"'J. -"pot .J h~.-.:- to k~ep nwvmg. Tlu.t'• the llal{ I ~h <'<>M!t::a. !fit :do'• With utino, 11'• Thu'• ..tat I u-y l<> do m comta. I f<':d :om= nn't be bb.l>d.l-U an't
S.H.J.E.LD. m by with oomc-lhing dJe. My job ll I(> rllUe pcopk .....,.U:h. 1><':, bectu.<! he l,o..., ....,_thing o{ tlitrud[ If I ~d lt'J outunl 10 do lt.l 00 it.. I
K:irltofWfi-~- to. LiU ;,. tfl«l• ~ ,_ hav. ""leu~"/> 1/u ,..,_.,/,..._ kd the>~ Ill a (Crt:Un n'hn~ m be-llljf rlght a.- wron!. If you're" bl-.nrl ~
who "'-Y' nothing, doa n<lffim11> ~«:~ <'>OthJ"« and .u.-..,.
nothl.n(.l thinlr. ,..,._.·re d>e.o.~ ~t{_ lfyou'r<': fl<>t
do in( somethlnif.- u-~ fOfi\.,-Wng- or experlmemint
..-ith wfM1hln! to ln~t )'OIJ, 'f(X1 h:wo.! to in~
y<>unclf Jn SM!.ethlfl!- Wh;tt .:he h«liJ 11. ill fo.-11 lJiaJl.
'IOlh'ICT oc Ia ~a, when ""-" !!!nff:ltit>n linb ifliO ~lfuy. I
f.huU. th.e )'0\m~ P'"OPI.gel :rnd pbf ~~it
\lk.e I ntutofttfa-iliey'-re ~!'If to In~ it and h-::
~ gT=t ume with iL Th"1''rc goiJl! 1<1 look u gum and
look at lhc h<x>4 and l:<HJk ;;u lla gravn :on.d ~;Jot
~hlns'IMI'I iii'Of>"' bdo.-.:, wd fmd Q<lt...toat ~ hdJ
~It tio:ll.l think tho: younger ~tion >! -.rt
enough tQ do that.
l(Jt fJ.,.,)~II/->1 Wullrd
kiU'I't Wcll, l fffi that_,_ I,.... up It S...ta Cruz Unt.oe.-
.rty and I r£1i.«<to IIOflX: of ttw: ro~ ~e ;mod u.q
m.de Kl much ..-rue-to me- mote -..:rue dun my,
......u, nottlutm\Kh [~
Well, o>;O{ more t1un my ,;;men.dotl bt-c-olwe i t -
uu(ht up in oomcthlng 11 couldn't do m~ .w..ut.
E-...n 1f my gment>on 1=1 rcl>c!lecl 0'1' ltood up 0.0 0\.11'
r=en~a an.o;l Wd. •Wdl.""" don't file your~ •
there W;Un'tany time. We-r='t tlut~ Wr had to
dr-!Ye,- had to fight,- h..t II) d-. ..el=lto Dd the
other Mill lhc eye. lllcre-"" titfte e't'ell to thinlo:. To
SO to~-.. \Ulh.eard <:J{ around Oll' _,. If" gur
wv.tcd w l{ll to tnikgw: thq would ut. "What do<:a your
f.nhet Olo'Di' Stock Jn Cc:nenJ Moton?" So a~~...,
gmeratk>o could do om wori-._ Y01.1 IO'Of-led, you conm.ed
md you ftrugh~ My gencniion wu '=Y ho.rilc, ;o.nd lhat'1
why it'l so authonari;m •nd why fl: 1ooo:o hds. {know that
I would t.;m, io:M:d .. f rt.e'o'ff had • ~. I ~
eYer had • -,oung mmhood. llln'O" '-1. tUne fur it.

Telo Arr JCWIW UW <lr'<l\tl!..ll ~1-f14r OJ!t.U .;rJ,If7
I!8Y! lf}'OU :Ilk olhff people, I'm 1 po-etq >J>OnW>C-oQI.
guy 1nd I wind up gTvinc- thetu ~ll.U'a {I~ SG if
~.e it wything you Wlnt ro uk TM..jU&t •hut"""" up at>d
..,~
-ru. Ajt6 FJ!hting Am..erloa., J"f'- k1 Mm--M c...t difi

f.w8rJ ltmll rro'Uo __,_ .... ~ tnJitop.
lalrh You .on had :;m aOOi=ce for that kind o(thlnf. (
tried to ...-.:>l't It out witb SW'l{Ut], w h.lnt~t
JA833
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-14 509514, Page63 of
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u..,,_-_
wprthe-:toe-J, l'he-le wne a f;,.,. Hill goi11~ but tl...-y didn't iuve- th"' b;g ~dknur
thq hltd. Th~re -..u a thing I wu in~ in. TfM n,, ...tuch got a turn<>n ~nd
hen.-: o( tfutt 1 told 5tiltl th•l there might he • h~ for '''!""rhe-roet. "'Why
do.td- rry Capuin AJnenca ~- 1 kept~~~ 011 n md ~;uw-1 ......, qm..-t in
ru. S>orofp ,.m ·.,. nl'f~ th4I o.. n, o..d.1m-M'"'
I(J1lN>
ttH
N<>l tmly th->.1, lNt I !rcl m:w 't mtellcu tu...1't
wry'""""'
~nu.illy colli.kd with t/te
l<Ut"ctl, In oth.-r 0/ot<h, I {tcl th.lt «>roe how thl!l<'t mOly be: oume k.tnd of "'Pf>Ofl
that m= hu ne~r had whh im«ll, whldl h., may find ll'lw:~ on the um..:
--...
...-., lo
....,..,_ ...
.-,~
kadtodrilc,wt
kadtos,lol.wt
bodtodow,wt
_,.,
_
tho-e d.ayt, like every other oflke, and !;hen thi"«f kpo to pid. up lnd pin lcffi <n W<M W"J' 'Dtil IIH:ttold be aplored. loh)'br the i.tue-a. in hh o....., n"" hu
bodtoldck""
mom<:-ntum
~ llu.d rw tim<c f.:. k«p t.>;bt on DC !)e.:~ l....u 1o0 mvol~d with Mu•eL
TOt ~ 1M Fa.w.stic F- """"""""If.

..lmh"""" 1J ~ >n><>/.a- t10 •tuf/-
b.....,.,.
n:h OC Jtvlr4 11tt ,....,-.....,..~itt c.l<!rttttm, """•'dl ,_, """- W., lot. to
klaa'fl Wen, i t - a '"""'lution In th, iffile t1ut 11- , _ "- 1tl<c rupcthero ru.d
IL
rome IJnd of ln~Ul«~n.:e we c4tl't bthom h<:u..- ote-'te- to damn b>J.
TCJtw.rr,Ja,_,td:rl<J~!An<.-Jro;.u-.i....,__..u.~-r
~ Beuu.c:- I ouly h.,., fWQ :um1. And I'm

t!ufsthe-1ell0tl-
~euing older. !Ll~lllnjl "'f'PO"'" .....
.,..n..._
.. -...
h<c<:olfUC ,__ I fdt like ~nmm>llll! ""til s;irnuUdo:.J, When I drew~ ~nucl<.. it
~nw'l!he old rypor o( gtuunk!; It w:u e"'rything hued on riJht n~ and wlat
peopk ~w ~ :o.nd wh:o.t U..,. might tee fro>e or ten )'t'UII'rom now. l could
Wr dK"trOfli<: -'Ctll~ ;ond jtut Jet th~m run r!~ :.r1d tho.t kd M r.h" gou:!gea
r,.. might"""' torla)C Tiw.'f hcrw ~ Ncg"'tl'tl' lone c:ame ;~.bouL I ~ to
c><p.c:riment with th.-t lind 1>f otuff IUid th:tl'• n.,.,. f--41> tlrne :abou1- I b<opn ""
dm:JOII my mind out io ;oll dlffl!lent ditecuom.
fll«e- "time when llu.d w dn ~ 1(()-ry •bout ;~,II "'llS ~A
pbi!Cl U..t IO'U ali...e; :a p!.net \tat wu mfelligenL Th:;n wn rwth~ 1tn1t e~
~ there lud ~other ~I oriel; on 1m. plm..~ bt11 th.u't not ao:epabk
Oh, I could tell rou th;ot then w.u 2 hvtng p~t ~here ;wd )'O<l W()U(d .ay,
'''r'nh, thafs wtkl," but h.ow d., you rellltl' to it? Why 1:1 it ..:Jfooe;> So I felt
wmewhere out in th..- nniw:no', t},.., uniurse turm. Uqu.id ~ l=:ont<:t <kn«< •nd
tU"fTII liquid- md thu ID th;. hquid. there wu a ggnt multiple ..UU., ;>nd if thlJ,
multiple ,.jnu .,.,..,.;ru::d i>ol.ue<:l for m!Hioru ond m>Uions of ~U:O.. it would bq;>n /'
Ta thlnk_ It~ ~ 10 ~ by ,ud{ lll1<l !t '••Mdd ~gln ~ think. I'? the
lime-...., n:~ct.cd It, 11 •rught be quH<" •uperior 10 lU ~ md th;ll- £go_ That ""'l
:;u;cepu.bk: ~ I,..,.. uu--nn~ qu.e:.tio111 thai~ m'&ht a.k ll.boutlL
!t't • concept. I feel~--- in f:oct, h :>lmon m~ke! ~ ~ tlut the
univene g~ll ,ff......- uui the l{(lm< ~a..- n>Ore Wmp¥1 ... nd ponibty noiliiflKf'-"'U
~ oomeddllJ ;ond th:o.t '"'"'ething &ets big;~r •nod 1t ge11 bigc:r wd it
migbt u~ !ucll into Mme- kind of liquid uom.-. Why not)
TO:ft4lJ~.ufi/...Nlt}Dh$Nt~ ~~.:u-afDWWTU-f"--''t •., _
,..,. ~ "'-"'p.s INJ _._,lUi; wkJ, ~~ ,_ __ tlri"(( IMI: _ _..Q ... """ .-.,.
"~·
ICliiS1'I Wdl, ~ I'm In the-~ fategory. In !3.ct 1'!1 buy thu I wuuld
r.uhcr be In tluJ. atex(KybeaUI(' I. led thc.-e :ue no e:<PfiU mywhcre-m
mything. 5(,1'1UUltlc::illy, I CUI tU.e :o.n-y=e :o.p:u-t. Fot thu te3J.Otl, I fe-d tho:re
,..., rtO rigid prindpleo: anywhue-:. If JOm~<me- ~ .,..., phu two tqu:o.ltt
four; I I<'Ofl't accepc.IL I ""'Y· -w.ill, th:U'1 Eudi.u..n muhematia, rlgbtf'
Whyii:Ioukll follooo the- ~n~• ofEudi& Milybe there'• :anoother r:ype
of lfllllh that l!Uke-J r:wu phn twQ equ11 to aU. I woold Ilk to try Uu.t. M~
the- ""'rld will be~ Oil .. type: oC mathenuticl that Euclid didn't...-en
fig=
TCh It'• lib dri/<btl't. 1M, w lhi>tp iifl=ntiJ tA.,.. <llhtJu, 4M <Iff--'*""~
""
KD:n: Sure-, and t.hu'• wh)ll don't. I~~ !.he-m
whe'a they tdlme ~thi.->f
tQ tdl me moe~~
they"""· J nu:r b.: look.ins- at the hegirurinJ of

.., n~ wotkll may_,.,., Conn. We pla-ce- thllt I've nt:'l'el" teen be-fun.
a.Udr-en lO'ill oometilnes 1ii1lJ' thinp wbi<;h ~ foilowlnA: up. When you tty 10
~lop: out of !hem the-y_ ewh<e imo rKW coru:epU, md froi;D il cltild'•
quadan mar come an enti:ldy"""" concept. Why shoWd I ,._void It, O'f' wtry
,l\oukln't !look f~ k -..he-n h'l :olreildy there~ Wh:o.t""' they golns: w do f~
m<: a:~ept ,_,.toe enridllll)' Jtno-,.;kdJ:e? I would like to kn.oo.- more.
JA834
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-14 509514, Page64 of
Filed 02/25/11 3177 of 12
Page
liitht Sllvt'r
Sutftr was an
aftcrtluutght...
I thought il'd KmtiY• I did, JU~t ,\botH_ ~<n!ing ~ no••f'l on do~ •aone thcm~ ~,\d it got'" J.:<~ry I pl!t !I doNn 1 ltevrr
be grut If! TOe Y,u trtaJtd ""d dnw all of Mm •rf, >l<>nd<I1d hm>es. <<>nlmu~d itbc<-~u-•e ot nmld hJpp~n, and !Omehow l f~lt that, betng a little bit
could show a KIRINo Th~l"$ "!('hi <>f ~ par;motd my1df, I might g<"ne:nt~ iu; happ..-ning. ll-'>ughln1 So I jU>t put the
kind of fallen to: And !My ,#,.~ali lh< mm.. lfl'''- :\~t-Man, Iron ,cHan~ hr><>k dmm nnd I f~d it"! h~ppemng anyway.
angt:l typt of K!lt!IYIln <pite of 1t TCJ: \lG11/d JOI< mn- ilo" boolt flit /ry f'OIIr#/f1
thing, which rcn F:Cat!l,y. F:Xrtpt F•>Y th~ Hulk. who wu q>ute tbjftwu KIRIN: No\ n•tc.-:.rlly, nu. l don't fed :hat l1hould do ~verything my$elf.
the Silver IO!l&Y> l ueJletl the l·luik. t<>U, -<wl ~Jw him"'~ t.ind ofhan,.b<>~ne t'uukemt~tfl ru, I mtrm- jrm o"a- di! lhr fn<i:.!ls, >nits, -'IMJ, """'ihmr!
Surl<rls.U t(J, o·IMngdJ r~a"gf'. lh"t '""'-' my fml <>nP"<>-<"'"• i;ul """'Y'"~ dit dw,,gh! lu """a Klli.INo Y~.th, IUfl'!_ Ynu know, everybody h;u that kding: "Buy, tf the:y could let rne
mn~"\l<"I!J lJrf'""'J ''Y my~em~ Nobody doe• anything by th<'nudf. When a guy wmes cut and ma};es
IOR&Yr I uever klt the Hnlk <-or~~ a t<H>nlt<n, b~cau"" I kit rh., Hulk,.-..,. m.,.l feel 3 <!al~m~!H ijkt!, "I did thll." )"QU ctn be ~u.-.. 50 people h..!ped him. !t', true. The
~llthc char;o.nen wer~ me. !kmg a ""'"''"'r,. pni th~. mrface thing. ! ~>xm't m!y ame yool do \Ornethlng by y~>uuelf a whe:n you'r~ ,n (r<Juh!e. The:n the,..,'•
tr,~pt !hM nth,.-; hu"t"e I "'"'"t "'know why the Hulk jump• amund. w!Mtrhe rwbody and you·,e In trouhk, and that'J when you really count- that'! wh""
limits ol hi' •tr~nglh ar~ ! h:-el th~11h~ !h•ll's \<lcngrh •~ unlimited for;o<nf' ~w·rything good m you or e:ve~ything bad in you come• into play. 'That'• when life
rhm<l >U-><J!l l olnn't unde"t.:~nd. ll'• Jl'" nnl'nnittd, and when! had fum fight b.~ '""'" meaning for you beum•e what you do in that imt:ance:, or how you wlv.:
Mth ;he 'OmlJ!:, I felt the Hulk bwke u df a:~ p<>int wh<:r<O he hadn"t fully ""-<ted that paruc·ulu probkm aff~cu you tr.ournat>C.ll!y. l(• like when you fate: li>~ng
IH~ >t<enr;Jh. I ft:<'"l it 'h<">irl b~ FhM w~y o1ml dpng. If l got nwcer, l don't know how I'd face it_ ljll~t don"tlnow, !t would
Or. lJrwm >< ;t pMan<nd. H<' <h!nk!l hr'• ngly and he wanu; tht! 1vhole he a ~-.-ry lerrif).'ing th;ng. You ~ee what J me--.<nl The:n tUmtcs become
world!<} b,- like hun Dr Dn<;m •~ th<e fn>< who had h't~ t~d cut r>ff, and he'!tq~ng !mtgnliic-:wt; e:~e:rything !'~~done ~fore become! "'"glUfi<:OIJ\l-
w talk tht" whole wndd ltno hn;ng the>r t~•ll cut olf"' when e~eryont> ha~ his tail lt't the >af!1C thmg in wmhat.! hml thre~ month:! trnining 1U <:ombat.!
r»t ,,ff. he become• th~ mu>t han<iwme fox. Thai'$ ndiculm.os., heuu~e paranoid. '"'~~ jn <he: combat infantry in Meu. which ~~a pretty b:tiry thing h<:tarue """
"" in1ane people who n"""' get tltetr w~y. 1-iilier tri~d H, you know. weot. agam<t th" WaiT~n SS, whkh wru. a pretty b;<d mnJiL So t.ltdt hec!me
tCJ: Dfl<>m ,ho'"' tl :vhm At {ighu lht Ff: fl< '""''HI<> lf".l ,.j af !h~m, lml !hm ki!!J terrifying to me be.:ause l d1dn 't know whatl WM going to do. I didn't know how I
<mn~u"e dM ajf "nd 141 1M FF .I(</- ""'-' going m ~ct or what would happen, and Ihe inevitable happ..-ned- It'• the only
K!R11'ft And not only !ha<, but h<: fed~; h<: h:u th., rig!u to do it. Don't get me thing ! lm~e 10 '~Y- Th~ in~table alwa)"l happenA to ~!I \>f <IS. You're going to finrl
'"'"ntr •hmH 0<1om h~ do<:<n't f.,d he'< doing anythi,gwr<mg_ He kd' he'' youndf facing" eM be;utng duwn on you, or ymo'r~ going to find Y"'-'r..-df hacked
!nlly JuMi!ied in wha; he'• doing he('"'~<' he feet. he's a mp.,nor bemg, Hill mto wme:thing yo» can't get out of, aud )10" have to fig.lre a way Ol>t That'• when
'"P""o"ty nem, from tm un<:: weaknc" -· th~ f~ar that he'$ ugly. juu het:n>Se h<: you're !mport.an!- Doing .mmet!ting ebe hy )'t)ttrsdf;.. no great ~chieve:menr, lfyou
r,m .nme a<·id •eMS <In fu! f~.:~ 10 wh>rh he'"''"' ~dJu"'ed. And when you don't do 1omething. it could be: m~dio..:re, bm if the- lime U right for it, a whole lot of
~d)U"I w wmethmg, J'G" be~mn~ imane l><:'up!e will yd!. "Httrr'ay!" And th"n you're a gemus. That's ~II
T(;J, If• hoM iht~t Rud Huhmr/.s u- imtllig~t fl<e: n;~! 1hing ii rour own gut~ ~nd what <hey are: mad<' of. What are
lURaY' He w<>n'< ~aept tll~t and that's why he"• in<ane. An ;,..,,e man i~ a yuuf Not'" rdation to a comic hook, nat in .-elation to anything ebe:, but you
!, tmrat~d man_ You'll n<JtJc<: that every ome he irweuu ~l>mNhmg that'• when, ;u the:y 1ay, '"the chip• are down," or «>m.,thing like <hat- what are youi'
'"PP<:>M:d w he 1he: ultimate: in .mmething, Re<:d Richard~ will come along and How ar~ }'0'' going 10 re:act to tha experiencd Ufc i• anion and re:w:tion, and
find a <>i!e or find the w~abtes. m thh 1:adgN and there it goet. Doom is n'! a.1 simple a~ that. Yuu r<".tct 10 son>ething. You can react nghlly or wrongly.
ftntaraltd h~c~•~1e imtinnivdy h~ blOws th~t Reed Richanh h;u a jl!pcrior That'• the fun, I think t11mg3 that make me happy or sick or had - 1hey're aU
mteUig<:uce ~~perience:s ! re~ct to. If! re-act to rome thing, I fe:ell'm ~live: ~nd it could be a
Kh ll< gns '" a mzla~wl~ :wih IM l'F Mtd 11,.-, m'ts I~ d~Jmi. Spidt<'Man a> Damkwl very bad r-eaction, l don't know- it could he anything. I might not tike it or
_,,,j ;,, !Jrlt /wti;tn, ,,.;,.,a lot of hdl at.om it, but even th~t is a reaction, I'm not trying to
l'.lRINl Well. l f~d <hat'• wrong. ·n,;, i~ mn1p:my policy. philosophize:_J'mjW:t ll)'iog to •tat., fact:! a.~l<ee them, People •..-em to lil::e my
to, Yet< """" /hal t!J• bad guy "'"-'l al<~Ja]5/au1 ~nworl:: and I ~cc.,pt that. having a tittle ~!(0. hut it'• all beet> agunilin~; fnr me,
KlltlYI Thcu'J som<:-~hmg J L3!l do nothing ab<mt, but I don't fnl ;, 1hould be that Wh~re"-' <om~ fdla today h:u aU the av.:mtes upe:n to him ~nd wuld ha~e don~ it
w-~y. You W>fl <Jllole me: on !har. a hell of~ lot emie:r th~n I did.
T(J, AIIMJ.II('"" lM mllain a ~hanu kcau<t roil rf= win. fCJ, Do y<»o a0<14 jlt.lllo ml<"tain JflUru/f, and ha~ wmrfxld>j •Is~ wl/J /iJu! itt
KHUM No, I f~elthat nobody""""· Youse~. ~vii geu; clobbered and good geu Klllll"'': Ye!. J'll creal<: a conceptj~t to kc~p from ;;-ening bo.-ed. A new cha:racter
duhbcud, Let·~ filf'<" it·. Hider won for 12 Y""'l. He W~$ in a _\<lddk the:re for l Z or a new type of thing might come out of it;~ ne:w type of •tory or form~t. l don't
yean ~nd idt an a"1'uJlot of rorp•e:• around, but he didn't win "tther. He JUS\ kllow what Wl:! come out of It I really can't say, but it'$ re:ally a heck of a lot of
won tempor.<r-ily and lh~n we won, <~nd ti1at m~y be t.:mpor.ory. And JOmebody fun. Th<: S!h-er Surfer wa:s an aftertlwught. When I did Galru::hlli, l•udd<:nly
ds., is gomg to tome ~long, but nobody really wins. A vktory iJ a statit concepL r~alize:d h" wail God and ! h~d done $Ome:thing Bibliatl there. I fell that some:how
Thete's always going to be somebody around, >n a hidden comer, plotting ~gantS! God in connection with- well, ! fe:lt, wnu!dn't it be great if 1 could <how a kind
y\>ur 'lltwry. I wto\e: a nnvel out:e_ 1 feh that while: we were hol'!ing arouud in th~ of fallen angel. type: of thing, which t.llc Sl!veT Surfer i•.
'30i, tlt~rc wu a hou!epaiurer nmning around ln Au•tria bdng kkke:d otU of 'fO< Did J"" n:pm to llSt Mm loln'r
Hophou$~•. and nobody ev.:r paid any ~ttention to him. Now! feel that !he:t·e·~ Klll8Y• No, I didn't lmow what would ~orne of him. If the t·eadenhip ;mpon6,
wmebody goong ~round, ~Om<".onc else that nobody is paying :~.tte:ntion to, ~nd we usc \he ch•ractel'! and if the reade:nhip fud~ om, !he cbracter fades out. In
mddenly hd! emergejU!IIike Hitk:rdid.l don't know who he i5, but 1 1rie:d other word•, they're myths, Nobody WQrshif» Hercul~• today ~o t.lle.-.: is no
L-------------------------------------------------------~--
MARVEL0017195
CONFIDENTIAL
JA835
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-14 509514, Page65 of
Filed 02/25/11 3178 of 12
Page
SINCE YOU SHAW. !3E HEAA~O

10 GALACTU5 NO LONGER,
l REMOVE YOUR. SPACE-TIME
POW£~5.'
--,_~ ~-v.~~
Hn~uk:o, >.nd 1t'1 the~ thmg •nth one o.fO)tJf ch~r=u,n_ lfpeop!.. won't re.d HENCEFORTH 1 THE
Am-M~n. nO\ _,. 't ~ Anh>,fan, btn feel thu 1l(>( enough hu l.>oero dO<lt' on SILVI!R SURFE"R
hun, they ""l'd JC1pofld. ;'Ill the channefll ne s<X>( enough SHAI..L ROAM THE
d.,... to folk.w them ill out tt>dividually. GALAXIES NO
TO. f>/• u ""' <iNwf_ MORE./
l<JIS'I> Tku'o true. It'• ~ !:Ullt, rc<llly. Wl>en l-he pne endJ l don't know
ld!lf-l!ldarr,.,..r
KM'I'II'U ~ '"i:l' in Augutt- Oh.l nevtt figu.-.:d !0 m~k..t oL I f«l l'rn ~had In
""""' -...1)'1 Uld b..lllnd on oth~n- A I:>Ud !UT will tdl me llo.Yol ~ tr-u.t head af
luir ~nd I'll oay, 'Well,)'<.>'.~ lh.;.uld Jee my teelh." (Lo"t'''Mi lt'olih du.t. We ~11
h~ piU$n and min\JSQ.
TCJo II "fuah 'CU"f ""'-
liU!ttl'o su ..~. it ..JI i;Qbn~ea iw.lf out. Actually.,.,., n'""" ~ w OO'Ot'fJ' •bout
getrinl!' .-lu.t...., -nt. WI< .U .nut u-tUOII th~ w- lf"O'IO' In !hat dlrenlon- We
~~D.te in It..t dir-et:tlooll, reilly. II• M doeaft v.tllt IQ bt: bog. he won't l:te big
lt'o..-h;ot..., 1>:-a1/y ....._..(.Nnw, l'<i li'l;.e '" rJ•••J" •k fo~.--..,.,.nka but I U,.. o:hmn ""'ll
rm ne~r goins to play It~=-: wbc;co!Uciowly l don't ..-mt w la.m.l !U:;e to
ll:won to 1!, love 1<:1 pt.y lt, but I know d-amn "'!'It I'm n~r gomg t(> leun.. I Jlm
d•:>il't ...:Ulii.0-.1 w;u,t the eifen and not the""''-
When I h;u;i ~ Yotrn~ &-...a. bo.:o~. l fdlaw would c~ up to me
=d ""1· '('_.ee, I can dn.-l><lHer rlt..n Cuuff. do you ruJiu thu?" l ""'>Uld look.,
hll..u..ff. ;,_nd I could~ thl.t hot....,. •J><X>fmg,., or 1-pOOfing himoelf, hut I'd
n..-ver tum him down. I WUt.Ud ""'-Y• "OK. he-r~·, 1. =lpt, do it.· ~nd lk ne><er Cllmct
ha.clr.. The guya dll.t oune t-k ~ ~ S'-lY' thu k=w tloey ,-,atty cvuld do !t jw:t
by Cuwg ll. They j-uu: did it, hut the ~ who wuldn't do 1t ""'"' reilly ju« f:uu.
ln otJl<,r ~da. they kM:d t.o lo.Jk ~~ •rr.rorl.. th"f mukl tell me ~rythlng
~bout CanUf oc AI Willt-&m.or< or Will fnne.-, ot~nybod:y cll.o.. The one p<oU ,_
\hat thq '""<kf rn"YO:T mendon themse~- lbq would uy, "Gee, look u this
,t'-l-ff. juu Uk WlU FJlner. lt'8 beuu ttun El.nm-; but th.eyWOtlld n~ 1;;1y, ""Thia
i~ wh~t I d"""," beC~U<t: the-y kno:w dunn ...,u iliq i"'-t copon:l..,rnethlnif and lt
looked '-'try good. I drdn'tobj<:ct toil I Atd, 'Go ahe1d and do 11., • kAowlnlf fuH
well tha.t they would nn= come bad. I nev-er ~d ;m-ybo<ly, not crer~ l mln
that'l o-ut to hun me. I ....,.,., hkod. him. I juot !ct him do hls uwn thlftJ. II~
rum up :lgll!ntt 1. ~ ..U, It'I jutt too b:od. E.ithet hc'1 gol<lg 1.0 WI or nuccoeed.
:uld lYI'<ln't Woct him. l'rn not ~{<ling 10 pWt apn.t ITu-l'l- o.- ..:n-un w 1-top him
in any W2J'· If he Wile~ JTKI, l'llllJik.t him bo.d. lf he plou :tplMt ~. I'U pk>t
back ~c:m•e. alter tJl. llaYe to pr~ mJ1oclL- I'm n<>~: g-oing 10 lnitiaU! ;my
pJallli"e on him benowl know he'• !oinJ ro do romethl"'J and l jun ""'-'II to let
hom do it. Su.t hoe'lifot to uko: the c~u.cnas. I fed Uw'1 wh:ot t'<Ul:a up a
m•n. In o-thoe-r won!s, )'Ou're el~ i<"I18 W l{et ltompcd Of~.
TCJo If - / M t 1"" a.m.,.,.,.... 1/'jU 1r.1frJ <.Q iJflm.-f/Jfi'A /oall; ~ afllA.t Jr.jf]OW \It
dlnu.,.,.....,._p.-a~,-w~
KMrl'> Yoou're gc.O.:bmn ri!ht. sud it m>ght ch:mgoc 1~ if [live !hat 10<1!
TCJ.-1.-Id ttlt ,_ W btgillni~tafJfNTWtL"Ioc#r/)r>,;q ~ ... llwPrisone-r ~'
/hal)'<"'_,~ lhtw(A" ~ 1>«=-u,.,.. -~ .u ,._.but:
KIUro Well. I'm not ~t<>lng ill h.o.l;~.l,OOO. I'm goi"! to lclJ llnybody thllt I'm
Jl(>l
e-voMnt; in • ttJpo:tlior """1 or an inkrior wxy. They're g<:>inf to h...e to- judl!'e thai
fur th~. I'm lfiiinH to do wmething :tnd <Om«H'le's ~ing tu •e:u:~ to lt. TCioYw~tw•{fJ(.
Sornet:ime.l know how the(n: golnf to fe-act ~r>d wrnetimes t dott't, and if I Well, l don't know; I'm usuallJ' In a room l.bout thit me, but I fed J ~a
IQIIII'f>
t..n.ed ~ 1,000 d the time, I'd be <hnm ne;r.:r f""'{e.;t, whid:t 1·m 110(_ I o.n't be- lot becaux I~ alot.ll« 1M um.e !hingt )'OU do bu-t~ Is:et mwe
r>abody Ia. Th:at'J w1tr I don't be~ Mgewitc in Ul)'thi:ng beou.e thcreis ahn.ys linM \0 utalyu it wbefea )'01>- ffiisht W>t. So I til: lnd think Jnd lt't I.J: <lmple u
~ flaw in :onythJD« urybody RJS- Sure, I betleYe m<»l thi"p. WI. I'm fl=i~ thi.L lfrou can lit and thmi for 20 ~lfl-. rou C:lO oome up w:lth qulu: ~ bk.
~nous:h ll<X to 1o-.e or die by thcrp-. I won't liYe Of' die by ....tut any me. mado up-. I [Lo~ rve et:trrte uplllith qutte ahhthu mi[fhthe 1 big dod.
live ar dl.e bJ wlut I tee, that't all ro ~ ,_ .u... 4>? fnfmnt# 41' to w i>W ,_,- t-dh,
JA836
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-14 509514, Page66 of
Filed 02/25/11 3179 of 12
Page
ICIItiM I l1k ~ !;(y\el; ,....,..- uo:h~~ I feel they'r~ all good m=. I ~do. t}.Qte mco are gO<>cl for the fi~:~::t thu !hey're CO<UU.:ntly doln! ;o. Jnip which is
JU. Btu drm 1 _,... pnftr.,... ,....,__ .,r>MI!nr ~In@:" to ch;u~~~;e thdr styk and enh:wc.e It in the >.dvo:;o~ medlnm.
~ r...-... ·( l<krl!ify ~nr"-"mcs but thuo: n~"'""""" ~tNt Ire 100
\'kll, fC.Io /h«<.. c..r-!nj.ntoM..-u. iM-c{Q _.,.~ "'W/tfr-llrsi:<ftfk<ltt.
~dul fUf ...JI'ellu.ore-type •tuff. Let me put 1t thi. ~ i.l. >nigtrt o.e <in inlins KMni I "<:o'er did th.u I hil.dto get -a lot <:Lwipc ll'llL I W to ge-t a lot of'>Olume
>tyle df~ctwe Oil a. roman.:~ 'trip, "Wh~ru t! mtght be ineffet:tWe (lfl Ul >.d:Yentur~ our_ I f.-e! th;o~ I a.n ini. fairly well b>..a cerodnly n.ot l:n the cbu o( ..:l'l<ti.ll people.
mip. ~ u~ rome Jt¥1es th~t ....W hdp an ~nturc: •trip, ~ ~ lt more I'"" o.IW!!)'J fdt thn wllttt I pencil" W.W.ns. tl'nu's u far""'-- h ~ JOand ~.-,
imJ>"CC: than it lud,. :md l tnjoJ th2t- I ftd • ,..,.....,,~ Urip should~ a scyte of <:Cca:rtnc but l f<:el thaft It for me, and if I"""'"' inking it 1 \fflUkl be dnlO'ii:IIJ that
lt.'l U'Ot'l'l, and lt'1 n<rt bl~<klnmda otuff. w a fel)ow ~be uUJnt fOl!U<Ke picture •H O'ref ~for no rel!loo :u all. I won't mil! iff doo:r't ~to. I feel
•trips fOT ~and ruddenly be giw:n :>.t1 ad:Yo:nturo: $trip fD do. Tbk f. un&k I inking ill iu:df il a ~It l<iod <)(;Ll'(.l feel 1 can'tp;o bqon.d thumd I wnn'r_
kd he'• bdf>! td.en oul oihil ek-!n=r_ There'lalwafl ac ch;mce \hat If he dn.WI t'm doN: with l~ >rllen l'm fin.ilh.ed. I woa't doW)' inltill( un.1at sooteone ~.
;o.t;Nenntte rutpt.lous enough oc ill4 them k:.lg en"'"ih, he'U a<ljuat to it ;md "You belt~ Ink this; U>o o:h:u :;md I feet that, In 1111
JA837
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31710 of 12
<>wn w:oy, I'm " pmf<"!rloruol. I'm l'lot a 4wyer or a doctor, co-rl.:unly, h<lt I'm
doooR tJu bnt l ~'itl- Or th,- be>t <>I. wh:.t I kl'l""' n1 rhi' plrtuular lidd
lCJo It's ,dlk.J -..smt ,.,.., u.U..1. •
ltJRn'l Wdl, I f...,) tale-nth """f"'deme. II'• rnUy rn:olhinJ rrwre tlu.n lh~l I fed ti
you J>;IW'. 'Oll yow- entt!(Y U) ~ cer~n rhloj';, l""' c~n he • ~~:~nhu. If ynu gJ'.'tc 1
),uk I'""" of you,- eoug:r, yuu cMI be~ prcole..,onal. Hyuu're dQ-WJlright lny, )'OU
<'Uo IK nln: Jnd m~di-<XT<' ~nd tl!':lli)l ge~- .Jun~- Som.dlmn I fed I'm m.uonl!: ou(
l-'Y ~ot ~"'!!" m~locre
TO }\Nrrad<><M-"""<Lt·d""'11""'
I(UV, C_.enainly.lhat's my b.;og. ll•ke to~ Y~l'u.t othott gU}~ ue dotng :;u,d I like
'"'""""h.- thd<- mindo or~ runO>ng. ,..-!:tat th<•(r" C">:f>"n~tlnJ!: with
':>ometiln<':"'. th:tt l>et:om"" 1 oteppmJ!: l\l'.tut! to m~lr. Inn n-y, "Well, he'' fj:Ol 1
!rf'eal uk.L Wl».t WO<>!d my -.er"on be hkc('" Bcumc all we're rl<>!tl!l; ",...n1lJOM
nn old buk things. W,. mtght b.. .....,.-Ung oo the urne lde1 but one v.ll1i><Jon
might b.. my "'"" ond ~nother h/1. ond both might b;, intnc!UnJ. Why not
pn>dtKe them~
TU 1M )'l'l< l>t.;_J ,_-r ,_ """'i<J", l~t '''"'' ,..,- ritnwl
1(JQTli try to ~P tnck uf th<-m l ha..., ~~ fu~ •em torn-.- fro-m the oflke ox
I buy tfo,-m. /leep In'~ of the U.>itl.un<:JO th;u ~- I hep 111"-lmg ml.$~.
s.-,mctim~ I go too fu1 <)!'my mmd u thinking o! <Jthtr tbmga.
TU. Ctm,.,.. fi..d mi.ua.Uf "' ,..,-.rr flrijld1
I<IUYt Sur,-, I'll !loot :oJI the '-'"'""- I'll t<I<~ke m"'<ilr.a, l:~<g rnl.lr,d.,-_ lft lllr ~n old
cart h:od.l "-""d to dli"" it: uound li\:e nouy, tl$Cd IQ h•w: ~ wol)<Jerfullime 10
"·hut pam wouJd ny >.H tn'C1' '""' or~<='- fl "-:tl. • g>.ng3l:eHype car. which they
U<d "- lmle old lldy tuoOO to IOif)" off """''Y <tty lmd not ~ mu.;h ~ whole
damn motor wu fil!,-,;1 '"'th u.....dU'Il 'I he thttl!- o. w,-ed, 1 !2·qliJU.ler Wieck.
f n..ro: ro t~:u- thr<:>uJ;h tM urenJ with <h~ thing •nclth<c pou-r.. w<:>Uid fly ill m·er
the ,u-ceL ][ ""'-' a wild = e Uld I kl'-"'d it, B-ut m.>.yiJ., th'l!'; wh•t the ..:-ript !1
There 1~ gain!: to b;, para all ~r ~ pl>;ce- but it'• tnwlllng
Td! WIIJ4-"' "'""1olll.utfi<n1UM'f'O>tt1"'K""<4t<t!ta""'""-""'~1
Kllll'l'> W., fed thn the old ,.,J!;Uru; ha.,.., "~ re•lly ken. o~p>o.-cd. W.,'!l bring
tl><:m lu.dt :o.Jkr thr~ or fuur ~u~• ~nd rn:.ybe ;;.en longer th:tn that. They'll
co.-...; b;J,cJ<._ W~ mry ljkc 10 explore ~oothe-r ;r.tpect o{ thcor li""". For 1111;11U-.<.e. I
did lhi;; M~ <tOry In !-Fwhere h<: h:'<d built~ home.! w-ew~d th<: f.l.ct.
1<hich h:ttn't been ru~d t>l.fore, th-;~;1 Mol=mn mlghl b<o, tr. (.-ybabywt.en •lot:
of l«s-uleoted ~ lre go.nj!: through life .,.;:lh 1 lnt more collage with \Juit
oflli<:ti()n., 111d Molel:IUln ~><:com"" hon>-~~n lh>tt ....-y. ft bU<Iomiuct h.im, md tbetl
h<c .--etrn.u ~g>om Into h.. own !M31'Uly ~nd ~ 'mdagtovr!d_ He'• r<:1dy fOT
:tnO!i>er eptu.<~e- l fed they ohoo.ld 1J.,- f"Ju..,nated fr-om llme 10 ume so people
can take a s-00<1 Jc.ot. .:u them. ~nd lt rdlecu lh~ bet lh~t ""<=Tybody lui •
w~. Nobody" pe.-fen.
TU Tl'«'r ,....{((I fo "'""rul &rlll. <l>Ui jighJ '"f-lllll"'ru, lns.l lw<d<"' '65 <>"-<~ '66, ,_
.r~ wtn'"' Jhi.J "¥~/<ln">ry hd. 1-Wt.>......, rnpv..nbhf,.-UW- _,.....-SUmr
KMm Both oi =. I" ~ way. I IHCan:hed it •nd ga~ my verDon of it, u\d San
~his ..,=oo oft<. Sun humVliLed it in"- .... y..-ner,-, for lm!'u-.c,-,1 mfght be
co 1 u;em~d lbuut Tho.-'• rdatiofl U> the othN ~ I m41;l11 bring up 1 Ulil o.- I
mlght bring up •ome-thing out of th,- ..-ild blue )"'f\-'kr, like th~ 0-n.<:k- thu
gr""t big thing .mich nol>ody kne-w ;mything Wout. I tried !O fathom h mytd£
And 5'-'l IO'OUkl ro ..... dO'oOTI tn f.a:rth md flod Tbor's rebt>oruhip with Wth
f><''-'P"'- lo othe-r 10'01"<il,...., !:0 up o.nd down the JPO<=lnun ~)'I trying to Ctn-d
..,.,.,thing n""' in 1<. Life It UU that. If we could .-Jt .un, II!~ -..ould rome to han:
~ Qftl,.nea tow.. So""' hJ:>'e to g<J up :ond down that god~mn •pe-ctrunl
<euchln&" fur ooroethi~ l knori .:ofter ;I; cerujn nno-utll of one u:eoe I'll gilt 10; n,., "'"-tAM hDwn ~boa~ bttfvn' Ptmftj'rMF-.dc
r,-,rkn, You c.:rn tm. rne low p~r.u;ll$e and I'll get oid_ of it in len dayl. I'll ny. I<U'h N<Jt tt~. but~ thtte'• """"'thin! in the b~ t=keup t}Qt k"f"' F.,... &n, U69.1t*Jtl
"How ,.bout"- ch:tuce ill hcllr )'Ott wom~ from one end of the ljl-ectntm u) th<: othet-. Seo.r-chl"! for ~I--
JA838
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31711 of 12
!'LL PULL MY
PUNCH A LITTLE
--NO SENSE
HURTIN' 'IM ANY
MORE THAN I
#AVErA/
•om("\hlng_ l fed lhu ~ lot o{ »> ~"' m 1 J..nd o[ thr~imo:n$0<.>1Ul n.ge. il't • ~ lfthq'n: ~y. I'm~ f<'ldt.lne'O'etrefu.ed:aj<;>b.l''""alw:l~been
·~e wd ...,.,., 1unmng around tht. c~e lik~ "'l""''d, bo:-:<:;o\U<! it 'otO\l.ld be grut te~dy t<:l d<:Jljob; lhlt't my h:r.g.I'U do :o.Jub fOI' ~.I'll do a;ob for~
U ~ cou.kl lne~k out of the third dt~n ond f{llfll u<)Uild in infmitj< d~. I'll do a job for my lilmi!r It'• the rrpe o)f~ l :un. Iff h;>on: •.Job u. do,
Woukln't that 0, lf'<:oa!l Y(>ll thm.k. of i.he mlinit.e potslb<lltko in an infinite rn do it. r~ got to do it.
concep-t. We h'>C in al!mlied concept- So"""' nm llp and down lhe uge. We'~ T'CJo Ctftilfl i»d Ul di[frrnr.llhmfJ aM >Nf><l tAinv ~ --,... -.h l1w
'""" ""'"J<hmg. If""' ha-.n't ~ 11 in t~ fl>O'ri«, ,.., •.,. ><:-en tt m the :ooo, And F>TglujuJF~ did. )10* sr. sJu. .n- tvtl Fll>llGftU£ggr-1
of- ~n't ..een 11 the:1e, Wl:'"" :~<:en ttU ho,.,...,, U1od if not Were, W<''Wc "'=it at k!UYI Yet I di;;:l :utd. J o.n w:e the FF a.o ~l I""" "'l" aur hcnx2 bein,; e'iil while
"\nU.etboill <:ouct. You ..ee •II upecu of hum..m beh:ovioo-. You'...c ..een K<ffid .tdB, rryin~ to be ~.
b..:l. ~.ue. - but thcy'u the 121= >4<1"-'. So rou go throuw;h life hunllog for lOt /s WiJ ~1>'1U1111 ..J., 1""< <UIRtd. t.Jw JM..-.u1
vuiationt, but you're ;;ttwl;yt In thata.ge. You'U """ ~Y' ~n~ ~tn • glrl and ka'lt No. I tttl&ed the ln.bu<~UU~ l>o:omc lM competition- mrning up in the
thet> 1'1.-np thlll girl•nd go f<>l" :orwd>cr kind of girl, but romehow thcir t)'J>" of girl r.,Jd m! U.O.tplt- """"'-'d try a new- con<="P" 1he !:wrily c<.'Jf>ttPL So -..h..e:n
Ill nri:otion of~ type they had bdou. Thu'slhe ""'1- ue;...., run up wd ~ <2mll up wi.th ooe rupcrlw'o,""" would .ap them wit.b five . ..Uiimple :;u
clo-wr1 that e-.g.,. Thu'slh.e ""'1' 1 feel :about it. It's Just my own corw:ept. So I ron
"P Uld down tM: <4~ pbyinstt u uwl >.:1 l em, In other wurd!,l'm notjtnt a
fr~nu~ monlq.
""''
TCJo Tl.~ .U, tl
IOUVt
bi£ 14 J0<1 do U btflt>:
k1 the only <ny. The only_,- you an stty ahead. Maybe it'1 Uk being
TO !I~>U> ,_..)""' """ 14dr-fiwslrtpl <II ~d~ tJw "Milr"lHlAp"'1 thrOWTO in ""th Te-n.u. A IO'at.e'rmelon 1h..a il a prnaw to UJ ·•· uh, :l pot;uo there
~ I fon:~d mJ">elf. Tt's n<>t 'tUf euy. ~when )'OU'tr! in a lkld lhat'a 1:! a ,.,.,uomdon ~us.{~ I'm wott~ing lfQUn(l all the tirl:H:,
pldlng up motncnnun and the,-, L•n't IDco -.->tbtl s1aJ in Nro. YQ!:ll'd lib~ J#l tMoo -"~!If~ Jvn.
you. KMh't "We'..e got them mngin~ :a roo !\. lt.:lft 5o Ill-xi :>Jl tlu.t 10 do and It WH 1. hldc· KJn'll I dCHl't t.hi11l< they're 'ln\Uttt, ttrontcr or bcttu ~ til. llhlnk they 1.1":
hreUiogjob. But,li~ l uid., roy gerw:ratioo J.cljUUed to it. th~..., tn dleit o..n ~ they c:m be defe<tu:d bT !hi~ humat:t or ffihumu1,
TO. I!. Us~,...., ..-1 or they an !H. deft111ed by circnmtWI<:Q.. l...ot.~ld hate 10 be • Riperben:l.l re-alty>
iOkl'lo Y~ it'l e~e-d off a bit. I'm gn.lefnl f<:Jr ~t b«J,w;e l nm reJ.d a n~ ·""'ukl My OOghl:>on would kin me. Thq ~ flnd rome-)' u::> do It l::.o:nl.tSe
o-cution:aUy. lh~ IIKIUido't be Wle lO lUnd me..
TOt ~U,_ IIU14d~..,.,W,.Jtrii., .....,_~llll~-*' TO! Yw ~ lot dijftrnU .
JA839
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31712 of 12
aaaask viofcnc:c is
stupid bcc:auu: I
was in war and I
saw tht results
Klflll't: NM <1nly w1uld I ~ diff~r~nl, f'd bec pnfect in my way and ti'"Y W(m!d h:ne "etile ot too unimaginative I'm aft~td th~y may he bd111g nn.-gm;o:liort or
n\<: f<>r iL And they would try to fmd !laws M\d that would h~ my biggut Haw~ <'Xpe,ience.! think it'~ cxpn\<:tlc~. w~lly. l <hinO:: that, well I've been b<:~ten up
ofit.luscdto
nul bemg able to get along wit11 them, and I would grow bittN, and 1' nnght in my day and r.,_., had a vanation ot e-.ery experience You nmkl C'Vef n~me. A lOt
walk around and
rh~nge me from ~ing a ~Ufl<'thno to a !\lpen'l!!3in. of r:uys baven'1 or maybe !.hey have- mayb<: they've be<'ll m one pla-te wn long
watch the dead
TC.h llhmlt wrn\.:> .~a<4 muiud lht'"'!;' whf!t~ thry dJJn't nmlrlte {Comid] {:¢• I haven't, I fed that they h~ve Jared th~rn<dve1 up in" fo~mat which they lind bodlts In the
'A\•thomy) ;.f),aJ d<! JifU rhmkt haTd 10 unhmg-e. Th~y 'hould aU take a ncati<>n. I <ho-uld too! A whole new g;:~ng field and the
I(IRH'h I rhink we 1honld avoid ll-! don't know. I think it's openutg ~ hd <ma 0f f:t!\" •hould Wi!lk right io(O MJrvd ~nd DC, and j would lov~ to go fishing an<l dead c:ows and
turmd, an eudl<'M <Unnd in which """ all nm down ~ncl we _;Wit don't !tnow how ;ee what kind of hall game rome! out of lt. l would lov~ to "'" tl betawe it would the: dead kids
it'~ going to end. ~nd we g~t deecper ami ~ltk<:r and ~kker umil we bnome he a refreshing !hmg 10 oee. What lind of coucept would mme out of !omeone and tht dud
arlju'!<ed to unmentionable thing!'. Spt'aking for ffi)Uif. I kuow there'• v\olenre, who dN'<n't th\nk h!<~ I do"i 1A'hat would happell., what would wrne ont of ynuf I houstt and 1-ht
but r like w ~how vin!.-nu in a gnu:dul way, a rlramat:IC way. bm n~r in Hs true d<Jn't know, but! mre a. ht:l! would becuri<>u.~ to $ee it. dc:ad fltlds and
way. ! just d<m'( hl<e to took at tt that way. There i$ .rome thing •tupid in vio!en~e Someone 11p at DC,nre told me, "Jack, 1.;,1ch whM we're doing now, that dead sky.
;u 'l!ol..,nce. Thne'~ something !Hd ahollt )t<>l<>\uy; thNe'J ~omething e-v-.cr. We're coming out 'With •omething re~Uy good :md wait until you ~e thi•.w l
Thctt was smoke
•wpidn about love. In other wor-d!, W('c haY<! ta tal<<!~ basic mineral and mal<<! '>'<lited. I !aw it trying to be born bu( juH not ma.king it. But I would lik<: to s<:e tU
all over and you
<<>llleching nut ()fit Now b!ic do!ence i~ mtp!d hec;t;W<! lwa~ in war and l !JW alljuHk<:d.
th~ r<m!ts ut 1L !t w:u JU$t srupuL l used to walk atound and watch the dead TU: 7'htvtt~ j"" ani 1/tt Wlndowt
couldn't stt the
bndie' in the fkld Jnd the dead co""' and the dead \<ids ~nd the dead homel! ~nd K!IUNI Yeah, hut make it comfonahk I would hkt' to 1ee ~ bunch of 19-Y"ar f11<4
sky. H was just
the dtad !idd~ and that dead •ky. The~e ""'' lmoke all over and you ~ouldn't •ee go to tt.l would love to """tch th~l All ! really know is .uperhc~. ;md l would stupld.n
th<: 1ky. II <~alJU~t 1mp1d. II got to lh<: p<JiHt where I couldn't walk in that kind of jmt Jik~ to see how a young fd!ow would ~ee:. mperhe.-o. Yout venion, your
.m mmt;~ph<'rc anymore. I ft:el !.hat we 'houldn't degent'r:u.: to that level. I can't. brother'•, your rn!J.:ague'a or mmebody in your age gnmp. Th-..t would be ~ !m of
I won't takt' ~wlenc!" in thlll form, ~v~n if it i~ th~ truth. l'm a cecrtrin type o( hm for me, h. Wt>uld a he new eYp~ri<:nte fo-r you hecame )'<>U ha"" all the5e !we$
man. l don't h,w~ to he<:omt another rype of m11n jt!M bnat1~ I can. to play around with. l dtm't 5ee them a• dtaracters_ I ~ee th~m Js hves.
TU. _s;, ymt "",,..,/rna,_ tt Ilrn-y )tl'll I(} 1Mkt flu Jlcry gm>d, not for vWin1d~J wM_ TCJ> Db 1"'-'- tJ!I lhe ftth"f. thai 1"" h G<>d 7
Klltl'lo Right. I'm not a sick.y, that's alL l don't bdie~e I'm a $icky. To a su:ky, 1 may KJJU'Ia Maybe. Maybe that's what Cod'1 an about,_We don't know how we'r., hom;
be a >icky. bm nm ~<:<:on:Jing to my <>Wll ~nndard!. ! fed wh~t I'm doing in comio we just c:.~m~ m1o hemg. Mayb~ God h"" rome k.iud of pend!. Do you realiz~ that?
>5 violent. but my kind of viokn~<:- I fed d.anting Is a kmd ofvio!en<e. I ft:el any To GOO, wo: may he tw<>-dimen.Jional. V.'hy no!J> Our dreatm are elliptiml- we're
kmd of mnv~ment" l!lofence in a l<'•Ur drgree. Bu1 vi<Jiente- basic. r.IW diiptical. Whycm't our dream< bt ;ureal u we are. in tbe!r own fathiont <Dley
'~olenc<: in w!u.:h 1!!0ience" infliet<:d !II a miml!<:<.<, terrible way- Tcan't ..,e. ! think they're ~live. And tl1ey have no wntept of whu we are, and maybe wmeday
won't look at it and I W<:ln't loler.ue ~~ ~nd I won't put >tin my dr.~wing•. I'll ~how if C.od wake! up, we'!! all be go-ne. s~e what l mean/
a re;,aion. I'U <how a -•plat or a bang. Now you'll see a guy flying :wd yuu'U 1ee tth Nm rM!/oj.
hun go t.hr<Jugh a hmBe bm you'll nevn I"'' him hurt or you'll nevn see the KliUM It'$ kind of deep_ l feel I'm ('.{)d became the"" thinw are living or mo'Ving
lwu"' wmpktdy destroy~d. You'U nou~e ther-e'' no realism in wh3lev<:r ! do to my concepa. Good or b~d, that't how rh<:y com<: out. I ~an even puni•h them
hrc~we thry ~re thin~ a3lllke to ~ee them- I jllllt hke 10 K<: them that way: that'! by ern<ing them but I'm ntH that mad yet. I like to make them as pedect as I can,
rny l"'!; and it'• my fanm--"Y. You ~~mntw "'"'me, ~(Teat ~nd I feel now that'l what Cod i• doing with U<.
TCJ' Sitm SU'Jl tk.~ im 'I ""1 rumjHiiUfm jM Manni. I'm ju't trying to give you mme of my poinu. Rdk,•e me, I'm not out tO
K!RIIY: I don't fed there i! make a <peech or anything !:k~ that. If~ just tlle w.ay l ;un be~aust when ! talk to
TCJr Yeu "'""" r!ttrt iJ "0 ant lhaf rou/d tho•~ Mar-wl "pt you, in a way, I'm wo.-king. You don't realize it, but I'm W<'lrking. When !look at a
KIRI'h Right. mag;>line, I'm workmg. I don't see that mag:mn<!; I ~ee what I want to u:e.
TCJ: l-\lu mun ~dmrt lhaJ DC l!t1i 'f'"le a jtw gwd dumu;tm. TU: Wltm did you rome out /o (.;alijdrni'l. r
KlflB'h Yeah, hut r fed th:~t fhey·r~ 'i«ing on them. Sure I loY<: th~ ch:u--aaers they KJUYt_january, 1969.
h<Ne, but they're <itting on them. I fed !hat they're more cnn~<:rV:.ciV<! at DC. They TO: At ti14 timt of ih• jlaodx, ;tm--mf --
won't kt a dtar-acter lOU$<!'. Stan "''lllook at aU the char.u:terinia of~ ch:trat:tt'r, K!ltl"'o I thought I was !he cau,e. Califo-rnia started to go pi~ee hy pi<:e<:. Flot mud
'Nhich ,, good, he-awe I \h;nl<_ the beu approach to flumanny is to try to find al! sl\d..a and then wi-n<h and r ligored; well. lf I didn't get ba~k !.h!s whol" m<'~;.
the a~>pecu; of it and ourselve11. I know the people «I DC aren't afrn.id- th~ arti.ns gonna be gon<: ... and. well, I'm not thm paranoid so J figur~d it wo-uld gn ~way
~ren't afr.11d. I know SteYe Olt)w "n't afraid and th<! other anists aren't afrnid, but soon~r or later.
l thin I: the ,·ompany policy U: too comernuve_ They Ut on lheir duracte111, who tth Why did J<IU ~a""' mu hmfl
'"every good; they won'tlt't them out, V;-'ho'J golng to nop Muvel from running l!:li!SYt t never did think ! would wme om h~re. r '"11S in Long bland for about 20
over themi' I would rath<'t "'"!ch a Ma<vd £haructer th~n a DC chara<:ter, although ~:or! :md never went outsid~ my own doomep. I harl to do Jomething about my
l rea!i~<: the DC charncters have good potential, excellent po;enrial wife's health, and I thought l might fiud a milder dim ate ho:re. My llule girl is
TCJ! BlffiMn may haw 1M mtUI pe!rnliaL frail and s~he couldn't tllk~ tte !t:vere win ten anymore. 1 find California great for
)(!n'f•! think Satmau'• bun mur-dered. He'~ been made to look ridkulotU. Who her. California ill a pla~e for kim-- h'! w<111M on me but for kidJ you can't beat it
wuld bdicve iu himi' l think com in haw. to be belit'ved ln. l think movi~ have You're !utky to be ht're.
ju•t dragged Batman through the •treetsln his jncknrap. TOt I'm glad I am.
1 think i!'s tmgk that DC h:an't <'xploited its heme. !0 the extent where KJIIBYll think it'5 a gn:at alate. I hope to b~ here a long time.
they un't let them be people in u-oub!e. I tbtnk you can be IO<:t bland or too TO: With )'{ll<r lw:k, JUI< '11 m IM m>llomium. ?
JA840
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-15 509514, Page70 of
Filed 02/25/11 3171 of 12
Page
EXHIBIT 44
JA841
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-15 509514, Page71 of
Filed 02/25/11 3172 of 12
Page
State of New York

Courts o! New York
I, 'Jack Kirby. being !irst duly sworn do hereby depose

and a~:
(I) At tho request o! Charles Goodman and Charles

Brainard, I have related the !acts concerning the creation
o! Captain America and rq work in general at that time to
Lili Cohen who has typed up this history, and after I read
it over and made a few additions, retyped it on the attached
pages.
(2) To the beat ot my prasent knowledge, recollection,

information and belief, the facts therein are true and give
a fair and accurate summary of the situation at that time.
Subscribed and sworn before me this~ day of July, 1966.
MARVEL 002124
JA842
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-15 509514, Page72 of
Filed 02/25/11 3173 of 12
Page
Before the late 1930's or possibly the early 1940's I had

been working !or a small n.ews:paper syndicate which served 700
weekly papers. Then I went to work at Max Feischer•s studio
where I was doing Pop eye and Bett;r Boop. lli th the newspaper
syndicate (Lincoln Newspaper Syndicate) I did three weekly comic
strips and an editorial cartoon: one was a secret agent strip
·;;'J.,:"~(Sgt. Riley?), a futuristic strip and ~ the Sea Dog.
1"'~~ed f'A"'
· I met Joe Simon at a place called Victor Fox just before
I came here. He was here as a production man before I came
here. We were artiste for Fox and he might have been doing
some production work too. I was hired by Joe Simon to come to
work as an artist for Marvel, which was then called Timely, shortly
before llorld liar II began, probably in late 1939 or early 1940.
I believe Joe Simon was an editor at th~ time in charge o£
production of the comic magazines. I was hired as an artist to
work full time on a regular salary to help create comic magazines
and characters. The offices at that time were in the McGraw Hill
Building~ There were no set comic characters as such at Timely
at the time I was hired. They were created by us to produce the
comic magazines. Many of the characters were not in existence
at the time and had to be produced from the top of our heads.
The characters that were becoming the strongest were the super-
man~type characters. These were the strongest selling types as
the countcy was beginning to be in a patriotic stir; military
names such as Major ••• 1 Captain ••• , etc. were saleable.
MARVEL 002125
CONFIDENTIAL Mf;RVEL0000351
JA843
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66-15 509514, Page73 of
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Page
Discussions took place in the old McGraw Hill o!fices

practically every day on the baSic creatio~ of characters
and the framework in which to present~ them: what type of
villain would they need to face the personalities involved
and the type of gadget to be used. The characters began to
evolve rrom those discussions; there were sketches made of the
characters and their costumes, and these were changed and
modified until they assumed what we considered the correct
appearance of the product we sought. We used Hitler and the
Nazis as perfect~villains. There was also the matter of re-
molding a' chavacter~ We first drew the Captain America shield,
for example, as a tricornered shield, and there was a dis-
cussion as to whether it should be circular. There were scales
to be put in the upper chest part of the figure; it was a
popular form for the decoration of a super-hero. The discussions
were primarily between Joe Simon and myself in the Timely office.
This was the beginning of our partnership because we worked so
well together. There was an exchange of ideas until we had a
finished product that we believed would gain reader interest.
In the course of the discussions we first evolved a main
character· and then began to build around him. I suggested the
use of a side-kick whom we named Bucky. Joe designed the type
of lettering to be used on the Captain America cover; it was the
only thing I couldn't do. All my work for Timely was basically
super-hero oriented. Hurricane was a fantasy figure with super
powers. Tuk the Cave Boy was an experiment, a 6-page feature
which never gained the interest"that the super-type did. All~of
this work was part of my regular duties for Timely, just as Joe's
)!~' 7/;z/66
MARVEL 002126
JA844
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66-15 509514, Page74 of
Filed 02/25/11 3175 of 12
Page
production was. He ~ould do lettering. paste-ups, he vould

scale co.vers, to size. All of the work that we did together
was done in the Timely offices, in fact, all of my work was
done there, and as far as I know, all of Joe•s was also done
there (I think he was living in a hotel room at the time).
The general outlines for Captain America we worked out to-
gether. There were times when I would come up with a theme
that we both thought would make a good story, and I worked it
out in its entirety. Joe was more preoccuppied with other things
as production editor, but sometimes he would suggest a story
which I would work out. Re was very busy and didn't have time
to do any himself. I did~ Destroyer and The Vision at
Timely as part of my work. In addition to my primary responsi-
bilities and some editing toward the end of my stay, I would·
help others and everybody would help everybody else to get the
work out. The ac;tual discus.sions, for the title of' the strip
......Ai.v.•v..,~""(: 4'·,....{ v( ~t<...t<!~Jt:.ct.
Captain America wera alagous to the conversation I had later
1
at Detective Comics when they were looking for a challenger
magazineo¥;: whic There
were discussions about the symbol of the magazine. Linking the
title to the theme, I suggested Challengers or ~ Unknown. 1
worked on Captain America for about 10 issues, maybe it was more

I don't remember exactly now. I left Timely with Joe Simon to
work on Detective Comics. I originated the Boy Commandos for
them~ and also the Newsboy Legion. I do not have any of my
sketches of the original Captain America, Buckland other
illustrations because I never took th6m from the office.
MARVEL 002127
MARVEL0000353
JA845
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Page
I felt that whatever I did for Timely belonged to Timely as

was the practice in those days. \/hen I left Timel;)r, all of
my work was left with them.
Date• July~ 1966
State of New York

County of New York
Jack Kirby, to me personally known, appeared before me

today, July 12, 1966, read over the foregoing four (4 pages),
and before me did swear to the
A~ 1'~"-
truth~ !Jl>ePoof,
"-'- "'-""' rA
to the best of
~
~
his knowledge, information, and belief, and in my presencefdid

sign his name thereto.
17
~ 7
L·!;?~
Notary Public
MARVEL 002128
JA846
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Page
Inserti an #l
I. asked the edi tore, Mart \Ieisinger and Jack Schiff,

of DC what they wanted their magazine to represent. They
said the magazine should represent men challenging the un-
known. I said, there is your title, Challengers of the Un-
known~ This is close to my conversation with Joe as much as
I can remember. I said,. nw'hat should this Captain character
represent? 11
He said patriotism and .America. I said, "Fine,
why not Captain America?" These are not the exact words of
the conversation, but they are the substance.
MARVEL 002129
JA847
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66-15 509514, Page77 of
Filed 02/25/11 3178 of 12
Page
AFFIDAVIT
STATE OF NEW YORK <
ss.:
COUNTY OF llmT YORKJ
I, Jack Kirby, being first duly sworn, do hereby depose and say:
(l) At the request of Charles Goodmann and Charles Brainard
I have related the facts concerning the cre~tion of
Captain America and my work in general at that time
to Lili Cohen who has typed up this history and after
I read it over and made a few additions, re-typed it
on the attached pages.
(2) On reading over the re-typed pages before signing them,
I added in my handwriting the comment on unnumbered
page 1 concerning Sgt. Riley, added the phrase "which
Joe and I discussed 1f after 'Captain Americar on page 3,
and had the typist add an insert (which is typed on a
separate sheet as "Insertion #1 11 and added after page 4)
in place of the phrase 11
Which concerned men challenging
the unknown 11 on page 3 which I crossed out~ I also made
the several typographical corrections at the bottom
of page 3, and I note that the not~rial statement on
page 4 was amended before the page ~as executed.
(3) I want to make clear that the statements at the top of
page 2 concerning the discussions in the old McGraw-HiD
offices an the basic creation of characters refer to
the general practice in the office at the time but also
that they specifically refer to the way in which
Captain America was created.
MARVEL 002130
CONFIDENTIAL
MAHVEL0000356
JA848
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-15 509514, Page78 of
Filed 02/25/11 3179 of 12
Page
(4) To the best of my present knowledge, recollection, infor-

mation and belief, the facts set forth herein~ and in the
nttachcd p<l:sen, rtre tn1c and r;ive a fnir orld accurate
summary of the situation at that time.
c ac r
Subscribed and sworn to before me

!fvc •.!J"l
this !J day of~' 1966.
(Notarial Seal)
DOWIS SlEGJlllt
Nmb7 P..bil<', ~lht" nf N'"' Y..:
No. 24-(19'}{)')30
Qltalllk-d In X.i"/1" C..IU:Iry
O!orttflut.. tab<! u. "''""' y.,..)o:, eo..,w
~na ..... Expr.- Mud> !14 l9c.cJ.
MARVEL 002131
JA849
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31710 of 12
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Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31711 of 12
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CONFIDENTIAL
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JA851
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31712 of 12
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JA852
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-16 509514, Page82 of
Filed 02/25/11 3171 of 21
Page
EXHIBIT 45
JA853
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-16 509514, Page83 of
Filed 02/25/11 3172 of 21
Page
Page 1 • . · FORII R
JlllO!lTltATION "'0.
applicaelon for l«gistrlldon of a l[lgjm ro
Rrnrtllaii[Dp!!flght :R 683000
DO NOT WRIT£ Hl[fl'f:
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Marvel 000155
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JA854
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-16 509514, Page84 of
Filed 02/25/11 3173 of 21
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....,_ .. Kercy.atL&..Kellyon, ... ~9-.)laJ.delJ.--l.ane
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Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-16 509514, Page85 of
Filed 02/25/11 3174 of 21
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Marvel 000155
JA856
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-16 509514, Page86 of
Filed 02/25/11 3175 of 21
Page
Charles R. ~ard, Kenyon & Kenyon

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Marvel 000158
JA857
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-16 509514, Page87 of
Filed 02/25/11 3176 of 21
Page
FORM R
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Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-16 509514, Page88 of
Filed 02/25/11 3177 of 21
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Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-16 509514, Page89 of
Filed 02/25/11 3178 of 21
Page
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Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-16 509514, Page90 of
Filed 02/25/11 3179 of 21
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JA861
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31710 of 21
1
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Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31711 of 21
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JA863
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31712 of 21
FORM R
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Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31713 of 21
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Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31714 of 21
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Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31715 of 21
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Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31716 of 21
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Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31717 of 21
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Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
Filed 02/25/11 of 31718 of 21
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JA870
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-16 509514, Page100Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 317
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JA871
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-16 509514, Page101Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 317
20 of 21
1
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Marvel 000155
JA872
Case 1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-16 509514, Page102Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 317
21 of 21
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JA873
Case Case 11-3333, Document Document
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-17509514, Page103 of
Filed 02/25/11 3171 of 9
Page
EXHIBIT 46
JA874
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-17509514, Page104 of
Filed 02/25/11 3172 of 9
Page
HRITJ:;RS AND ARTISTS AGREE1ll:la
AGRE.El>!.EllT dated March 24, l9'l5 betl·tee,.., H.?.!\V"'...L CO!!ICS

___..-·--..._
GROUP (hsreina:fter called "ll~rvel "), a,&• Jack .ld.G:Oi.../'J'i'~teTl!i!naf
called the "l'ld.te:r"/"Ari:ist"). ~-.-- ..-
WHEREAS the !triter /Artist is p:.:ominent in the field and
both Hrites the text of comic book stories and draws complat:.e
through the penei~ etage the art work fQr comic books Marval is
desirous of retaining lV:ritar/Artist as a writer and artist for its

magazines and writo:.:/artist is willing to'rander such.ser~ioes on
the teYmS and conditions herainafter set forth.
Noti' 1 T.H'Ertr.?ORE, in cnns.i.derdLion o! tha premiaes and of
the ~utual promises and undGrtakings h~rein ~ont.nined, and for
other good and valuable considGrations 1 the parti~s ag~e~ a~ follows:
l. ENGAGE!1CNT, Marvel hereby employe WRITER/AR~!ST and WRIT~R/ARTIST
magazines hel:eto"for.e and hereinatt;.t:r pl.!!Jli~hed ~Y Harvel ..
--;---..._
(a) Initial Term. The term of the Agreanent shall be fa~
years con_unencing l~ay 1, l975and ending April JU, 1Z1f· (sornetimgs I;.
re£er:r:ed to ac the ongagnrn~mt yo.ar} M
J/f<.
{b) Renewal Terms. In the absence of notice to the contrary

given by either party to the other not less than sixty (60) days
prior tc tha expiration of the Initial Term hereof, this Agreenent
Shull lJe automatically x:ene•,·t.ed fo:t: anoth~r ~n the sa.-ne
~·~:;::
terms und conditions as 'thosa herein sst forth ..
JA875
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Page
3. COHPEllSA'l'!ON,
(a) Basic Comoansation. For all services to be pertormed for
and nrovided to Marvel hereunder, Marvel shall pay WRI'l'ER(ARTIST
on a. biweekly basis, a weekly salary €.~~· For purp~ses of
this Agreeli'.ent, WRl'tEl\IARTIST shall dc.live.r to l!a.rvel du.ring- the
term of this Agreement thirteen (13) pagas per week consisting

of the written text and the finished penciled drawings.
,:;_'
)·_.;.-,•,.;'"~.-~
-
In this resnect WRITER/ARTIST will·~e all changes·and
'
/,'•
,},j<:: rew:rite/""J'l'~:'~! all Haterial as roasonahly r.equir"<! by the
•. I
I
P'Ublishar of Mal:'V<>l \dthout char9e (that is, rewrites/redrawings
and changes shall not constitute pages for purposes of computing

re fee payable .hereunder.
(b) !3>1ditional Compettsation. !n the ev<~nt that it is mutually
agreed to do additional pages beyond those stipulated in. the
proceeding J?lll:'i>g%'aph thA r.A:<i: ~nd finished penciled draw.ingS

shall be paid ~ar at the ~te of $95.00 pAY page.
Additional componsation shall be paid to WlH'I'ER/AATIST forty-five
Marvel.
('-; or benefits U.."tder any plan or ?lam:) uf hedlL~r h.o:>p.irto.li~c.t::i.vn,
life or other insurance avai..la:J.Le to

!.:i,:l'l..f.-....::..U·~
oclle@::::;:;u.c Het::.vel. whQ
\ are paid on a similar basis and \1110 have a s1r.i1la:r puBitic.m.

Futhormore, writer/artist shall be entitLed to ewo (2)
vucation per annum.
week~ ~aid
4~ (a) Conflict .. During tho perioe.. of this Agreement:., WRl'rJ.::P.fAJ.eJ.'J.t;>•,t.•
wilL not engage diJ:""Ar.tly or indiractly in .FdlY capacity in any busine~
or activity which is competitive i..rith Marvel, •,.;hich could be
CONFiDENTIAL MARVEL0014565
JA876
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66-17509514, Page106 of
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Page
'
?0 ·:~•:H~1il1fl~J~Hfi\:i~i~8 POi\
cetrimental to Harvel, or which mav conflict with 1\TlUTER/AR:t:tST
(b) Editorial Stipulations. SlAcH.nn as to th~ magazines or

f-co.turoo written/d.ra:wn ln).!.TER/AR.TIS'!' £o'r Marvel 1 l"lha11 00 dt'!!termined.
by HA:rhcl,
edit/dr~w r;,.ny CtJ;:tl.c.; book or maga;z;ine ~t.tteric.l for .o.nyohc other than
Marvel dw;ing t11e term of thl!:) Ag.tet::rnent:. wit.hou:t. the prior writ.ten
approval of Marvel.
(.::1) C.redit5. WRITER/ARTIST shaLL b"e given orcait 1 where
appropriate"~ornics
. ~
in which ha is the sole writer/artist •
5. Publisher. In per£orrning all services reguired hereunder,
WRITER/ARTIST shall act under the direction of the Publisher a£
Harvel. lflUTER/Art'IIST shall consul~ with him on aU roatLers
touching upon editorial policies, in 'order to assure the affici<mcy
and harmonious operation of Uarvel arjd to meat with the Publisher
of Marvel at regular intervals at Pu~lisher's request at ~~vel's
offices in Hev York, N<M York. HRITERJ,Mt'UST shall accept assign-

mattts from the 'Pub1 ihher of l.!:,rvP-1 t.n Wt:""ite,. edit, and/or draw all
magazines presently published or hereafter published by Marvel

and further ag:rees that he tdll make !no commitr.wnts Y!hatsoe.ver
(vhether financial or oth3n<isc) on behalf of Narvel vithout the
CONFIDFNTift.l Mft.RVEL0014566
JA877
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Page
the writer/artist lives la California and, therefore, one trip

y~r J!t:!<:t.r; wJ.J.l. be at the ~Triterrart.1.st 1 s expense a.ntt a.Ll othel;
trips when requested by Marvel shall be at its e~pense.
G. Termination~ Nothing in thi$ Agr¢ement shall be construed ~o
prevent !{arvel fl:om terminating WRI'J'ER'S/ARTISTS's engagement

hereunder at ani time (a) because of his fraud, misap~~apriatlon,
embezzlement, or the like, or (b) if h~ ha~ hRcoma so disabled as
to preclude him from rendnrln9 satisfactory sQrvices, or (o) i=
hA shaH have violat,ed any provision of thio ll.gro<>XllCrit, or (d) if

WiUTEtVAR'.r:tS'r is, unavaila.bko 1 for ""~hatever ca~se.,. .:f:~r\ a continuous
period of II!Or<> th..n two· months, ox (e) i ! his work has not lllt!t
the pe~fo~ance at~U:~.da:r:ds xequi;:. eel lJy Marvel ficin .otl~er persons
per:!orruin~ slmilar services tor Marv~l * :rn such e'\19·n:t {s) , .a~cllt
. ;:·
as provlded in (b) above, a:U obligations of Marvel. h,i!reunder .shall
'.
cease and l~lUTk;R/ARTIST shall be liable to llarvel · fo!'l b:teach of
this Agreement.
JA878
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-17509514, Page108 of
Filed 02/25/11 3176 of 9
Page
7 o: Ri~hts tO' :.later1 "'\•

r
u:nT,~R/Afl.TIS'i' ;~r·!lnts t n :t~.rvel tha sole a!:d
exclusive right to all Matecial deliv~~ed to l~arvel hereund<r
includin~, but not limited to, (a) th~ exclusive .right to secure
oopyrlght(s) in the Hate:t'lal in the United States, Canada, and
th~oushout the wo~ld, (b) tho ~agazinc rights thorcin or every kind,
(e) all film and dramatic rignts or every kind , (d) all anthology,
advertising and promotion rights therein,_and (e) all l:'eprint
rights. The e:<clusive rights herein p;ranted shall be ~larvel' s
prop<! rty for the period of the oopyrJ.ght and any renewals therenf.
' .
.8. 'Orig1'n"-litp nf' Nat,.rlaL HRITO:R/ARTIST ""l'""•ents that the
?~it.terial. writte-n/dra.wn by him vill be original nnd not· hqretof'ore
publlshed an<l. that i t l<ill not infringe upon ar,y <>tatueory copy-
_ right~ comu"ton ln\.r copyrie:ht or a:ty ot..hu.::• propr!.etory right~
9. Use of Name. l1arvel shall at all tlmgs have the l:'ight to use
W!UTEllS/ART:tSTS name and 111:en2ss ln connection wlth the ncale,
proomot10l1 and distribution or nny n:sgazines lih1eh include
!•!aterial· delivered to i>larv<>l.
•,,
10, Se:-1es and Ideaa. If any l·late!'ial delivered her~unc!er is part

or a Get-1eaJ the- idea and the cha!"act~r or character>s used thel:'eih
shall constitute Marvel's exclusivo prcperty for all times.
11 .. Additior:al Docum~ntG. HRiti'ERS/liRTISTS shall, at Ha~vel's expense~
tak~ ~uch steps anct execute and Celiv::r .:~uch fl!r>l:'rlli':r> documents .from
CONFIDENTIAL MARVE L0014568
JA879
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-17509514, Page109 of
Filed 02/25/11 3177 of 9
Page
0~-! n-R? iD: /RPM rROM ' KENI'ON l i&NYO!l. '0 ,.\l'''"'"l'i"l'i•\··:.
' ( I<~ :J!Hiil _l,. :i I -»- i hK
.this -A:;:-eement shall ,;e :suf.tioient 11' in ',·n··1tir and it sent by
registered mail to h1S resl<lence 1n the """" o£ ''I~IT':R/~RTIST, Ol:'

'to Pullliohe:-, Harvel Comics Cl~oup at Hs ot.indpal office in the
case of Harvel (14l.th a copy to Secrotary e_n<l, C<Junsel, Ce.dcnao
lndustl"ies Corporation) 21 Henderson Dt"iV2,.. \'!est CaJ..dwell,.. New
Jersey 07006),
13; . Wei ve.::o of Breach. The waiver by t1arvel qf a breach or any

.: :, ,., -?rovi;;ton of this Agreement by the <IIUTell/ARTIST shall not operate
·, .....
'or be construed as a waiver of any pubsequent.braach by the WRITER/
ARTIST. The waiv'er by the WRITER/ARTIST or a broach or any prov1si6n&
ot this Ag;reet.:ont ll¥ !~arvel shall not ope~ate or be construed M a·

waiver ot any ·subsequent breach by t-larvel.
..
.U .
"
covenants. WRITER/ARTIST agrees that he shall not make and/or

.
s1.gn any o!;.hexo contract or a.gt:~e~rnent# written Or" oral 1 . \-lhieh shall
· '· be ·in oon£Uot with the terms of this A;;;reement or pi-event or
hinder his po~r~oe hereunder for the length ot this-Agreement
.or any e~tontion or renewal thP.reof, and further a~rees that he has
the rul2 and unrect~!Qted risht to ~~tA~ into thts Agr~ement and deliver
the Nater1"l hereunder,
l5. .Assl~n::tent.. Th~ :t•ight"' 2.nd ob'liso.ti.on~ oi" Na;!'v--e-1 unde!'" this
Agl"aernent ShS.ll. :l.nur~ t-o t.ht: Ut::m:!'i.l; of: 1:!-nd ohc.ll. bG bindittg opr..,
tk\!! suace::is<.,;•s and. assigns or t·1a~·v.::l ~
CONF!DENTlAL MARVEL0014569
JA880
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-17509514, Page110 of
Filed 02/25/11 3178 of 9
Page
10 l~I#4SOG~'399RI~57~a pn~
Th1S ln&tl·u~ent(- .;.)nt;.n.1;.-= thR entire
A~re~ment of' the partJ.es. l::: may not. be c.hn.t., cd o~all_y b!Jt-. onl·:
by an agreement in wr:lting s1;.n.;d by the par-cy o.r;<.ll.nst whor.
entorcer.:ent of any waiver'~ chn:-:r.e, modif·ic3tlor., t'Xtent:ion) or
dischnr~e is sought.
17. Arbitration. Any cla':tm, dispute or controversy ar1s1n;::

O'Ut Of O:r' in connection Ylith thi~ Ae;reer..ent or th& bre:?,Ch thereof
will be eub:nitted by either party to n.rb1trat1on 1n He" York City
' '
b4fore three arbitrators appointed ny the American Arbitration
. Association. The arb it rat ion Hill proceed under the rule$ of th~
Ansociation then obtainir.g. The at1ard of the aJ·b1tratora \ttill be

binding and oonolusive on bo~h pP-rties, and Nill be rendered 1n
. , &uch f'orm that a judgement may be entered thereon 1n tha h~ghest
. cou~t of any forum havin~ .1urisdication.
18· ~· All taxes will he taken out o£ the writer/artist~s

sala:ry c:beck .by J~arvel and ;paid to the government.
JA881
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Page
(~
IH \>I'tllESS :R::o? t!1e pa>:tics hn'l~ e:x · -ute-d this
ATTEST MAR\'BL CO!UCS GROUP
I,. ~ ,
I ..
' I <_.(
3tan Lee, Publisher
....
IIITIIESS
·.
CONFIDENTIAL
MARVEL0014571
JA882
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-18509514, Page112 of
Filed 02/25/11 3171 of 3
Page
EXHIBIT 47
JA883
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
66-18509514, Page113 of
Filed 02/25/11 3172 of 3
Page
Jack ~irby, residtbq at 25-90 Sopra Street, Thousan~
oaks, California 91360, in eonoideration for one dollar C$1.00) and

other qood and valuabl~ n~nci&otat!o~,· ~e reeeipt •nd •uE!Lc1eney
o! which are_herehy aeknowledvod, doen hereby acknowledge, confirm
and aqree as follows•
1. l have no eopyri9ht rights and no cla~ to copyright,
cr to the reneval or ext*nsion of eopyrt,h~, or any other +i~ts ·
(except only for my ownership o! the ori~inal phy&ical ar~-work beinq
returned to me by Karv&l) !n any ar~ork, characters, publications
or other material Chereina~ter eolloetively the •Materiol"l created
o~ prepared by me for or on behalf of, or whieh wa~ publi•h~4-by or
under the aul:hori ty of, MArvel CO..! eo Group or any prellecerioor coznpany
(hereinafter colleetively •Marvel•). X have never t.:ran&!e;..re4 any,
IIJUeh ri<rhts in or to A.ny of the .Hat.eria.l. to IU\yol\e else ,;~d"will
never purport to llo so in the futut"e,
, '· I will never 111• wit!> tile u.s. Copyri9ht Offiee or
any governmental or publie ag•nay, a~ll will never A5sert or assist
or cooperate with oth•r# in asce~ting on my behalf or in claiming
riqhts through me, any claim to ownership o£ the copyrights, any
copyriqht renewal ri9hts. or any other rights in the Material, or in
malting any obj.,ctlon to Karv•l' • complete and unrestdctticl! dqht to
may desire.
3. Pursuant to the foregoing, I specificall~ retr4ct,
releese, aban~on And d!celaim any ~i9hta to the copyright xenewal
term for •spider-Man•t -Tho !~credible H"lx~ ana·~~ Fanta5tic Four•
\
CONF!OENT!;\L MARVELOO 14558
JA884
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66-18509514, Page114 of
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Page
'
as alleqed in iny attorney's letter to IJ.arvel dated ,At>ril 15, 1985.

X wl.l:i never repeat· 'or :reassert these or similar clal..tu$ to any· portion
or feature of the Material• or ot.herwl.oe claim right& :l.rt or to th&
Mo.terial inconsistent with Marvel'& complete and unrestricted CM~er
ship of all copyright and.othe~ rights therein,

4. With the JdVice of my attorneys, l have reviewed the
Writers and Artist• ~greement dAted March 24, 1975 between Harvel
and myself, and the Assignment dated May 30, 1972 between Maqa%ine
Management oo .. Inc. and myselft and I specifically aoknowle.,ge,
oont.l.rm ana reaf!irm niCI ·agreements.
~g Ackr.owledgEil!ll'nt shall be binding upon ""' and my
heirs, legal representatiyes and assiqns.
STil.'nl OF CJ\L:tFOJINIA )
)st ,,
COUN'l't OP vtll'tUM )
on thia /[-- day of June 1986, before me personally

came J~c:k Kirby, to me known ll.lld. known to me to be the indivil'\~tal
describeO in and Who:> executed the foregoinq instrument and

acknowledged th~t pe earefully re~d ~hd ~~~~!ned ~~e e~~ and
exeout~d it of his own free will.
CONF!DENT!AL MARVEL0014559
JA885
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EXHIBIT 48
JA886
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Filed 02/25/11 of 3172 of 12
I T_ T_ <4Ztl.olf AM'A)(IA Gl/!1 'lit t>EX 62'00 !Zil: 42.5 • 5£66

! i i 4;t0?1'a A!4AXIA t:illll'lllt>~K esoo- teJZJ 9"'13~7836
W U- 12 'tt'OQ -"'MAXtA HYK LAW Ol'f'ICE; Of' CAiiL£• AMAJI'tA
KENYON & KENYON

ONE BROADWAY
NEW YORK, N, Y. 10004
r~ANC!$ T_ CAFH't ALAr-f Y. ai::twr:!! 12121 425·7200
HVV+f A. CHAI'>IN .JOHN A !"OOAAiT JA\
CHARLl:S l!t S:P!:N:Ct:A VAt)!,. H H£"LL£A:
fttCHARO A. HUf:TTNl:R THOMA$ l. Cllii!E'L
!:OWAI"tO W. ()l'ti!:ASON ARY•HJ~ O. OffA'(
K£:VtN J. MCGOUGH
WILLIAM f MOLANO. Jilt ALe:t:tt'f J. fUlfi'::Nr:'.!SI!:N
OANI!L ,., fl!lURK!r'"'
5TVAR'f J, ~!NOt:ft
KARt:N Ot:BENCOICT!S
CHAALt:::S. R. !!!!ltAlNAI'!'O ca::ORG:t: ! ftAOENOCH HENRY 0. COL£MAN
KEHNE.TH lt. MAt:Htt:H JOHIIt C-AL TMfLLI!A ~ THOMA~ L _!ARVt1!;
R!CHARO L. MAY!:A MICHAl:L J. Lt:HNON 'NllUAJ.t J. M<::NIC:HOL,jf'4, K. TR;t'l'NA
JOHN 0. f.U:OUILLAt,f PHtL!fll J. MCCA8it PHIUPPE- tJENNf.Tf WEISZ
DOUGLAS G. flRACC CHAf!tLES E. H!':PNE:R• r4 NEIL SuOOt...
WILLIAM J. UNGVAflSKY JAMC$ GAt.!!:! P ... ITH (),OttA't'. II!
tOWAflO .)" HA.HOL.C:R, Ill WALft:A £_ HANLt;'Y, JIL A. OELAPORTA
J10B£f1T T. T091N RtCHAfH) t- :.)C:LUCIA JONATHAN D. flt!:ICHHAN
f RANCH.i HANO JAMt;S C. ROSINI MICHAEL A- <#OLLIN
SCOTT J{)~P'PH M MA11AnF:SI!
PAUL Lt:MP£l
$, Mtf"fJ.-<AN MARH 0. f!:HGC:U·fAM"N
Ft!CHAAO 5. OAESALYI DAWN M. OtSTEFANO
DONALD IC OUVA_t.."
August 4, 1987 W>\Sh!NQION, U.C.Qr'r!C~
f026 CONNECTICUT AVC:NUE', N. IN.

"'R£S!OtWT, WASHINGTON OfFICE: WASHINGTON, 0. C. 20036
T£l£PH0Nt:: l202) -4lU-1776
FEDERAL EXPRESS
Greg Victoroff, Esq.

Law Offices of Steven P. Rohde
1880 Century Park East
Suite 411
Los Angeles, CA 90067
Re: Marvel Entertainment
Dear
As you reques~ed, enclosed is a copy of the Artwork

Release executed by Joe Calamari, Executive Vice President of
Marvel.
Sincerely,
/1ft
st:uatl .'t .v Sinder
SJS:jr
Encl.
JA887
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66-19 509514, Page117 Page
Filed 02/25/11 of 3173 of 12
( Artwork identi
ARTWORK RELEASE
on attached nine (9) page
l*"!tidCilUC>n by the ..Ardst.. identified below in the Jnpamtion on Mlllf\leJ•s

In """'''-'.~>!Ill><'-'"
behalf of the Marvel Comics Group (*'M!U"Vel") is pleased to deliver u a Jilt to the
Artis! the original physicll .. rrwnlrlr 10 the followin&llf"tnent by the Artist:
1. The Artwork wu specially commissioned by l1ld prepared for Mll"Vel. subject to MarveJ•a auperviaion for
uae in a oollecti vc wort:. lll'ld is a work made for ~ punuant 10 all applicablt copyriJIU lawt.
2. The Anist was fully compensated for a!J his I her work in preparation oftbt Artwork, Md no ro)'llltiea or
other payments are or 'IL'iU be due or owi.ft& to the Artist for« on aceoul\1 of Marvel' a past or fUture use or
exploitation of the Anwork, Wlless exprmJy provided in a tepatatc written aaroement. ·
l. Marvel is the e:~tcbaive 'IL'orldv.ide O'llint:r of all c:opyrlatnln and to 1M Artwork (Mid to tbc cxfent, if
any, thai sudu;opyrigbt isnot owned by MllrYel by operation of law ,lhe Artist hereby irrevocably ISlip his I her
eruire rtatu therelrs to MllfVel). Marvellw the worldwide naht in perpetuity to prepare and exploit in any media.
any alterations, adaptations, revisions or other derivative worts based upon, derived fn:nn, or usiq tbe Artwork.
and the Artist wai vos any moral or othc:r ri1ht provided by law to object thereto.
4. The Anist will DOt reproduce, eommen:illly exploit or publidy exhibit any portion ofdle Artwork or any
materill based upon, derived from or ut:llitinJ the Artwork, md will oot use or explolt the um.e of' MltveJ, or the
name, title or likeness of my character depieb!d in the Artwork, fn my manner or media. All tndemart md other
fiahts therein are owacd ex.dusively b)' Marvel.
5. 'fhc Artist represents and warrants thAtiO the best of his f ber knowlcd,e, information and belief, liO Oflt
ebe tw any ri&ht or claim to the Artwork. The Artist hu noc:taimorrlgblofany kind inortomy oeherarcwmt.or
material prepared by him and .prel'ently in Marvel's poss.ession, except utwork. or materials dw hu bHn
contracted for under 1\eparate c:ootract with Marvel (nor any claim or ri;ht on any artwork DOC prepan!d by the
Artist), md Marvel rna) tnn.sfer such artwork or material to wtlomever it may desirc,llld utilize or exploit tbe
wnt to the full extent provided herein with respect to tAe Artwork.
6. Marvel may, if it desires (but need not), use tbc Attis1's name,llkeness and I or bibli~ material
tor the pu.rpose of promotinJ Marvel's uploitatiocs of the Artwork or M)' material uti.lWnc tbe Artwodc.
1. Tb.i5 Aereement WD inure 1o the heoefit of Marvel and its successors, udgns IIJld lice~. and lhal1 be
biru:finr upon the Artist. and his f her bein, rcprescnwlves, uccutora, admini&tnton and wipt. who shall
never contest or dispute or claim ri&hli inconsistent with any of MlifVct•s ripts provided benrin, or assist uyooe
ebe in so doiq.
Ac~ by MllfVel Comics Group
k-dl -t,Z
AUTHOR I ARTIST
CONFIDENTIAL MARVELOO 13635
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TITLE ISSUE # ~ OF PAGES BOX #

---
AMAZI~~ ADVENTUR~S 11 5
II !;"
J 3 s
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A~AZ!N~ ADVENTURFS
(SECOND SEP!ES) 1 r 7I
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CCNFIDENTIAL MARVEL0013636
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Filed 02/25/11 of 3175 of 12
TITLE ISSUE # H OF PAGES BOX ~
FANTASTIC FOUR 3 16(~ ~OIJ!ITED) 1

II
5 20; 3 PAPTIAL
?MES(TMN)
II
7 p::
.. J
1
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CONFICENTIAL M.ARVELOO 13637
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l\!R8X lHVEti!ORX/~
TITLE ISSUE # # OF PAGES BOX #
FANTAST! C FOUR ~3 12 1
II
55 12 1
II
71 13 7
II
72 13 7
II
90 12 7
fl
q2 12 7
II
93 13 7
II
q4 12 7
II
95 13 7
II
?6 11 7
II
97 10 7
II
gg 13 7
II
99 13 7
II
100 12 7
II
101 11 7
II
102 10 7
II
108 8 7
FANTASTIC FOUR ANNUAL 1 lq 1
II
2 35 1
II
3 14 1
II
4 13 1
FANTASTIC FOUR COVERS 70 COVER 1
II
71 COVER 1
II
75 COVER 1
II
78 COVER 7
II
90 COVER 7
If
92 COVE~ 7
II
93 COVER 7
II
100 COVER 7
/1
101 COVER 7
FANTASTIC FOUR MISC, UNKNOWN 1 1
II
i ! •' t· 1' ,.. ·., ·l ~ 1 'ld! 1 _cf
JA891
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Tl ISSUE # # OF PAGES BOX #

FANTASTIC FOUR MISC, AD 1 7
II
SKETCH 1 7
GUNSMOKE NESTERN 63 4 6
II
6~ 3 6
II
66 4 5
II
67 4 6
II
70 4 6
II
7! 4 6
.n
73 q 6
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77 3 ~
HULK 5 15 li
!N\!ADERS 7 COVER 7
JOURNEY INTO MYSTE,~Y !THOR 52 4 3
II
55 2 ,.~
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58 a 3
5~
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3 3
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60 ~ 3
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61 4 3
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53 3 3
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66 8 3
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f7 5 3
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71 8 3
7'2 8 )
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73 3
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74 8 3
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75 l} 3
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78 8 3 4'
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MARVEL0013539
CONFIDENTIA.L
JA892
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Filed 02/25/11 of 3178 of 12
Tt TLE ISSUE # ~ OF PAGES BOX #

"-
JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY/THOR 82 7 3
If
85 8 3
II
89 8 3
II
, 93 8 3
97 9 3
It
98 3 3
II
99 3 3
II
101 11 3
II
102 1.1 ~
II
1~3 l1 1
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104 11 3
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105 8 ~
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106 21 3
1~
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].6 ..~
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110 11~. 3
1/
111 12 3
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112 13 ~
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113 19 )
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llq l3 3
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115 13 3
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116 13 3
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117 l3 4
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118 13 4
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120 13 ~
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121 l2 ~
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122 13 4
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125 13 4
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126 8 4
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127 8 4
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131 8 4
" 132 8 4
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137 1 4
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!40 0 4
- ~~
·. x:
JA893
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JOURNEY INTO I~YSTERV fTHOR ...1itl_ lQ 4

IJ
1112 1 q
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J.52 8 7
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153 8 7
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158 ..1 7
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16~ 8 7
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16.1 II 7
If
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J.72 8 7
173 8 7
II
Jll! 8 7
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, 175 3 7
176 3 7
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JOIJ~NEV INTO MYSTEDY !THOR
COVERS 123 COVER 4
II
141 COV~R ll
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II
ll!6 COVE" ~
II
Jl:~ COVE~ q
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CONFICENTIAL MARVEL0013641
JA894
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Filed 02/25/11 of 317
10 of 12
TliLE l SSUE # ~ OF P~GES BOX ~

KID COLi ~3 3
II
5
II
95 5 5
119 3 5
~ARVEL COLLECi0RS 1 lTEl~
CLASSICS 19 COVER 7
~ARVEL'S GREATEST COMICS 27
II
COVER 7
28 COVER 7
II
7~ COVE~ 7
MARVEL PREMIF.RF. 31 COVE~ 7
MARVEL SUPER HEROfS 27 COVEP 7
MACHINE MAN ~
COVfP 7
"
RAWH!DE KID J.8 J2

II
5
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20 12 5
21 12 5
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22 ,.
II
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2fi 18 5
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28 12 5
3Q 12 5
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SGT, FURY 2 10 II
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MARVEL0013642
CONFIDENTIAL
JA895
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11 of 12
KlRBY 1if!ENJQRY/8
TITLE ISSUE # H OF PAGES BOX #
STRANGE TALES 72 3 f
II
75 It
I ~
II
75 II
I 5
" 77 6 ~
II
83 8 F
/1
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85 8 rv
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1~2 8 F
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103 8 6
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135 6 E
II
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142 1 6
143 8 6
STRANGE TALES ANNUAL 2 J2 6
TALES OF SUSi'ENS~"fCAPTAlN
AMERICA 72 {f 5
II
73 6 5
II
7a fJ 1 --:1 /'
-,.,
MARVEL0013643
CONFIDENTIAL
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Filed 02/25/11 of 317
12 of 12

TALES OF SUSPENSE/CAPTAIN
AMERICA 81 ~ 5
II
8?. 6 5
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83 f. t:'
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8£! ~ 5
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85 F 5
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TALES OF SUSPENSE/CAPTAIN
AMF.RICA COVERS 101 COVE~ 5
II
103 COVER 5
II
126 COVEP. 7
TALES TO ASTONiSH ll! 8 5
If
83 ...1?_
5
TWO GUN KID 55 ) 5
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x-tAEN 31 CnVEP It
r~-:f{--:
JA897
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EXHIBIT 49
JA898
.
OQ-In-q? 01:?RPM FROM.~ENYON
Case Case &KENYON
11-3333,
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF ro ISIU4~nnn*3qqniiS1RR
Document Document
75, 01/26/2012, Filedpons
66-20509514, Page128 of
02/25/11 3172 of 3
Page
r
,_
. (
( (
MARVEL
ENTERTAINMENT
GROU~INC. .
May 12, 1987
Mr. Jack J<i rby

25-90 Sapra Street
Thousand oaks, CA 91360
Re: Original Artwork

oea r Jack:
~his letter will confirm that, notwithstanuing your
execution of the Marvel Artwork Release (and in
particular paragraph 4 thereof). MArveJ has given you
special permission to arrange for the public exhibition
.of artwork originally drawn by you fnr Marvel, in
museums or retrospective exhibits of your work, on thQ
following conditions:
( i) l!n:y I';Ut'!h lllrtwr.u:k which i$ publicly Cioi:playcd
or exhibited must bear a proper copyriqht notice
in Marvel 1 s name, ano also a trademark notice in
Marvel's name referring to any title, character
or eharacter likenecs appearin9 in the ~rtwork;
(ii) you must notify Marvel in wri~ing of ~he

planned public display or exhibition at least
thirty (30) dayc p.r:io.r t.o the openin9 thereor: cmtl
(iii) .Marvel may objeet to lhe Ptoposed public

display or exhibition within fourteen (14) days
~fter r.ec:eipt. of the notificallon trom you, ana
if Marvel does objeet, yo~ will not proceed with
the proposed public displGy ut ~xhib1tion (or
will proeeed only on such terms and cor.ditions as
&u: e :.j?e.~ i. !.I. ~: d .1.11 w .r.l l.lu 1.J l1 y Ma r v e 1 1n 1 t s
objection).
\Ill 1'"'11~ 'IVt NUt \UIII H

Nl W ~>. \~\1; l'"lh'~ 1011'~
Jl)/69~ O!lll8
! HEX ( .180CI CAD 1\J!I
-4,'/ITI'f 1\,I.O,io'\l>
CON Fl DENTIAL MARVEL0014560

JA899
.
nQ-10-Q? OJ:?RPM FROM,KENYON &KENYON TO 151~asnnn•3Qqni~57RR pons
1:10-cv-00141-CM-KNF 75, 01/26/2012,
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r·
"•
Mr. Jack K U:by May 12, 1~87
- 2 -
This letter will also confirm that your e~ecution of the

Artwork Release (and in particular pnr~graph 4 thereof) shall
not be interpreted t:.o prohibit you from making non-prominent
historical references tc~ the nJ'!mP. of Marvel in biogr:aphic~l
material (but not in any advertising or promotional material
~here!or) pertaining to yoursP.lf.
Plea~..~dicateyour i!IC(~P.ptance and agreement t:.o ther.e

un~it ~dings by executing and returning th~ attached
d~plica co~y of thi1 l~t.~Pr.
I
in
AND AGREED
.n.c: 90w
Encl. (duplicate htt.l:.fH' c~py)
JA900
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EXHIBIT 50
JA901
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Page
. "Mkll81 but. aiiiObC oth.r ~ the .,_.lit

' tbeta atktd to r ..p<)Qd to Mar· would b.w llmlteli my~ to publiNI
: pn. w-. publllllt4 Ill. till Aua. • blotraphy ot putlclpat. ill -t:·
· u Bll:;v'• Gildf. rm not 0111 citl projteta !Mcl.mt ay role lA til.
.. pub& t1&ttmtllll, but 1would hiltory ol comk1. What'a'fOI'M. M&l'9ll
11 frlam ud eupporttn to bt mted m• to tum 011 my tritllda llld
11M aboltt tAM- coUtl(Qtl tlld ttatt Uat DO Otbtf
llaml admit& that I bm bttu lin· artllta had any tiaht to any portiOII o!
lilt from all • artlata llld. C61l• \bt artwork md tht!IIO plY all of Mar·
H witi U OlltfOllt qtttatllt ,.r, ltpl ,... azwllllllllpllf Ill &rtll\
~ I * faz bty011d rHOmns ~ t~t.ebllahtd tbOM r!Jhw! My at\otlleYt
ol O'IP!Itnhlp ot my otfllnel art objte\td to th... W otMr IIIIHMQII•
IWOD'\ t.or. )'011 with till cMtA (:1.1UY,Pt4•ll)
Simonson to quit •Thor'

~ 110t 10ill( 10 bt writllll Thor 't'llat !Jou• (Aucuat 1987! ..oWd oiUp
.nU.," Walt &lmontolll<*i ClKJ nuupr!nt .
"Tht reuon1 &H many ll%ld varied. l'll
- lnt.orvin. "I'm not 1111t bow
JaONlaluet I'll bt dq. thoulh bavt worked on Thor for almoot four
>ohmplatinc fi111ihin1 it with yean. That ... ma liltt tiiOUib for tbi•
' . round.
"l'vo rtcently beon btdly overcom·
m!tttd - lt tho coot of My peace of
mind. I'm wm!na to flnd h<>Y< mucb l
y.,lue my peace o! tnind.'•
He ,.;d that drupplnc tlu MaNti
ti"• would havt no notieublt o((O<I on
lti& life until nut yur and that be woui<l
I
MARVEL0013819
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MARVEL0013B20
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EXHIBIT 51
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---
ROI-IDE & VICTOROFF
STE:PHE:N F. ROHOe:•t TE:L.E:PHONE: L310) 277-1482

1960 CE:NTURY PARK E:AST
GR!!:GOAY T. VICTOROF'F' F"ACSIMIL.E. 1310) 277-14$5
SUITE: 411
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L.OS ANGC::l..C::S, CAL.IF'ORNIA 90067-1604
November 19, 1997
Mr. Joseph Calamari

President
Marvel Comics
387 Park Avenue South
New York, NY 10016
Re: Jack Kirby
Dear Mr. Calamari:
As you may know, I represent Roz Kirby on behalf of the

Estate of Jack Kirby. Roz is dedicated to fostering Jack's
reputation as one of the greatest comic book artists of all time.
At the outset leG me assure you that Roz is not challenging
Marvel's rights in the various characters which Jack created.
Any issues regarding ownership have long since been put to rest.
Instead, we are writing to you to address the desire for

Jack to receive credit on forthcoming motion pictures and
television projects based on characters such a~ "The Fantastic
Four," 11 Silver Surfer," "Thor" and "The Incredible Hulk 11 •
A week does not pass that Roz, and those close to her who
loved and respected Jack, are not asked by a fan, an artist or a
writer whether Jack will receive his well-deserved credit as co-
creator of these phenomenal characters.
You cannot imagine the goodwill that DC has enjoyed over the
years based on its decision to give Jack credit on "The Demon",
"Kamandi" and the "New Gods," including special credit when the
1
'New Gods If appeared with ,, Superman. (Speaking of II Superman II
If DC 1
did the right thing in giving credit to Siegel and Shuster, as

was done with Bob Kane on "Batman" and William Moulton Marston
aka Charles Moulton on "Wonder Women. 11 ) Ask Paul Levitz if he
ever regrets giving Jack the credit he deserved.
Stan Lee has graciously acknowledged Jack's role publicly

and privately but only Marvel can give Jack the official credit.
Editorially Marvel has done that on many occasions: Ma~Tel's
1981 "Fantastic Four" Special {"Stan and Jack are the creators of
the Fantastic Four"); "Son of origins of Marvel Comics" (1975) by
Stan Lee ("When [Jack] brought ( The Galactus Trilogy") to me so
11
that I could add the dialogue and captions, I was surprised to

find a brand-new character floating around the artwork - a
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& VICTOROFF
. Joseph Calamari
November 19, 1997
Page 2
silver-skinned, smooth-domed, sky-riding surfer atop a speedy

flying surfboard") and the November 7, 1997 issue of COMICS BUYER
GUIDE ("Marvel's Stan Lee {who created the character [Silver
Surfer] with Jack Kirby" and v·arious references the efforts of
the Art. Director and artists to make the program look like ''Jack
Kirby's Silver Surfer").
This is a time for Marvel to rebuild and solidify its
stature among all those who buy comics, go to the movies and
watch television. There is a huge wellspring of loyalty and
devotion towards Jack which will redound to Marvel's endless
benefit when the words "Created by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby"
appear on these' productions and in their advertising and
promotion. There is no downside, but the absence of credit could
generate bad will among Jack's devoted fans.
I understand that the uSilver Surfer" cartoon show will soon
hit the air so this is·an opportune time to address the issue of
screen credits. I would be most grateful if you would call me as
soon as possible to discuss our request and to exp . re how Marvel
and Roz can work together to continue to honor ck's memory.
Thank you for your time
F. ROHDE
SFR:ido
cc: Roz Kirby
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Mr. Joseph Calamari

November 19, 1997
Page 3
bee: Mark Evanier
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EXHIBIT 52
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From Foam, vol. 1, no. 17 (March 1977),

pp. T-17. ©2006 Marvel Characters, Inc.
Used wrth petmission.
Foom: Well, d€wrte the fact that you're quite well known for
\he Marvel Age of ComiCS, your own ongin is still shrouded i~
mystery.
Stan: rre Origin of Stan Lee?
Foom: Yeah_ I was wondering il you could talk a IrUle brt about where
you were bo•n and grew up-,md how you were "created_"
Stan: I was bom of man and woman, in New Yo<k City on 98th Street, a
little over fifty yea,-.; ago And I've lived virtually all my life en
New York First in Manhattan, for most of the time· then, for a little
while, ll1ved in the Bran". I went to DeWitt Clinton High School,
Mosholu Parkway in the Bronx.
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I was on the school new>poper ~nd m~gazme, and I grew to love

lfctunng when I was in high school, because I u'ed to lecture'" das~es
rn order to make some extra mon~y. In those days, they had student; who
sold suh>cripticm to the Npw York Ti!Tif\ to other ltudents, and they
Wfle allowed logo rdo a class, during a breaK, and make the" 1pee'h
to the other studt'nl>, So I did that_ I wrnt from dass to 1 lass; "Hi, I'm
Stan, ~nd I'm selling subscnpt1ons to the T1mes, you lucky people_"
I rnu1t have been ~lillie brt crazy, even then, because I rPmember
they h~d a 'chool rr>agazrne called the illt~fipie rn thosf' day;, dnd it
wc,s pubii;hed '" ,tmom c~lled l11e Tower, which l1~d a very high <eiling,
a~d there was no way anybody could ewr r..ach that ceiling. It wa5 not
quitf' d hur.drea f~e! hFgh Onf day 1t wa' bern;; painted. and one oi the
pa1n\er> had left the iadder wher; he went down for 'unch, so I c:imbed
up and wrote Stan Lee Is Cor! on the ceif;ng, which was one of the earli·
est evidences ot my overpowenng rnlenority cornp!ex. When the painter
came back trom lwnch he took the ladder and left. So, unless they ever
rep.-wMd thf' school, thooc lmperi;hable words are probably ;trll up
lhrre somewhere I always got a kick out of that_
So much for my depraved chrldhood
foom: When and where did you begin working?

Stan: Well. I used to work while I went to school. fhat was nght after
the Depression_ My lath~r was a dress cutter. It seem; the world wasn't
ceally looking for a lot of dress cuttf'rs. It wasn't ea5y for him to find
work->o I wa' alway> lookrng to hflp out. I would get whatever
p~rt-time JOb\ I could.
While I was in high schooL I got a job writing obituarres for a news
service, obituaries of living peop!e, of celebrities When a celebrity dies,
thE ne<t edition oi the paper carries a whole page write-up of his life_
They didn't wnte that nght ilway, it'; be<>n in the files So I was wnting
obi~uarie~ of people who were sill I alive, and it got wry depre<srng to
me--wnting about livmg people rn ilm past tense. And eventually,
even though it paid a few dollars. I gave lhat up.
I got a rob writing publicity for the National Tuberculosis Hosprtai in
Denver. I never qu1te knew what I was supposed to be publrcmng, you
know----convrncing people to get t"berculosrs. So they could go to the
hospital-m what? I drdn't enJOY that, so I gave that up, too
Then I wa> a delivery boy, at a littJe sandwich shop called Jack May's
I delrvered sandwiches to the offices at Rockefeller Center, and I think
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I m<ldP more money than any othN delivery boy, becclwW I rwwr
slo;>ped runn1ng.
Foom: You <till hawn't llopped.

Stan: Yeah. It wa> like hav1ng J money machine I'd g-et a d1me t1p ir.
tilmc day> each tme I del1vered a sandw1ch, so I figured the morP
sandwiCht~S I delivered, the more d1me~ I would g~t. Some d~y<,,
I'd make 51 _50 or so for rt few houri work, and to r1e, 1n thme days,
chat was sensabonal.
Tl'enl dec1ded to be ~n de tor. n--ey had something called th~ W P.A
Fede•al fheat,e, whi<h was <;tarted by Franklin Roosevelt. It was to keep
;wople working ond busy. I went to a 1how and fell in love with one of
the girl$ who was on the ;tage that n1ght, and I figure<J the only way to
meet her wm to JOin th~ W.PA Federal Theatre, I did, .1nd I met her.
We W€r~ fnendo for qu1te a whiie; she was great I wa> in a few shows
and goi the ad1ng bug, and I >Old, "Hey, this;, for me." But, you had
to ~d fw love----it paid pcacllcally rwlhing. I should have stayed w•th it,
because 1t was great, but I WfJ5 too broke. So I IHd to g1ve 1t up_ And
besides, I stopped gomg w1th that girl.
I hen I got a job "-'an offic_c boy for the second b1gge;! trouser
manufacturer 1n !he world I hated <t, because nobody ever took the time
to leam my name. There were about a hundred people in the office, a~d
the'<" was another office boy, too, who had been hwed tirst I was the
second. 'Nhenever they war.ted something they'd lfKJut. "Boy!" And
we both were supposed to dJop whatever we were doing and come
running_ After a few weeks, I reahzcd I don't like being called "boy."
t mean, Jamn'll, I have a name, I 'Nas always dnrng things wrong and
gett1ng 1n trouble, and hatmg being called "boy."
They had thmgs called cutting ticket<;, which listed the sizes, shapes,
materials, and the pric~,; of dEfferent pairs of trousers_ They were really
sheets of oaktag, about four feet long and a foot-and-a-half high, and
they had to be filed in b1g bins, I1Ke coffins. The company was too cheap
to buy enough bins, so I aJways had to squeeze a lot of oaktags 1nto less
bin> than them was mom for, and I was coming home every !light with
my cut1des all cut hom try1ng to get tho>e oaktags m_ And abnut two
days before Christmas, I was fired.
Not only Wa5 it a lousy job. but they fired me because business was
bad_ Welt, I got so angry about the way they did it-twn days before
Christmas-that when I left. I took a couple of those coffins of oak tags
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,,nd I turned them all u~11de down and l"'t >eattercd them all over
the room. I've never been back,"'""~-
Whlle I vvas strllrn high sdwol, there was a 1-lcraid- Tr~b""" weekly
cume<t. open to all hrgh school students The idea wa> to wntP an essay
on w~at you wns•der"d to oe tire brggesl nfw> evert o! the week I
won1t three weeks running and finally lhe editor called me down lo lhc
Her~ld-ln/Jtme_ He <ard, "Will you stop entering the conli'st, and grve
c;orneone r,lse ~ thiill(C>" I thought that wa; ju\t great. I wa\ very
proud_ 1 sa:u, "0_1<., I'll 'top cr-tenng." You got pard lrke a two-dollar
prrze 1 tor gel what it wa,, exJdly. Bul,_hen, he ;aid, "What are you
going to do when you becnmc a real person?" And I said. "I want to be
an cKlor_·· At that time, I wa< strll w•th tOe WYA_ f'ederal fheatre He
said, "Well, why don't you lhinl< of being a wr'ter? I don't know how
good you act, but you seem to be pretty good with words." I hadn't
r~ally thought much about it unt1ll heard th~re wac, a job open at
Timely Corr11cs ar-d <€alize<l they drd (nptam America which I used to
re.>d then I was cbou; \l,leen yeM> old. So I ran up there and i got
the JOb.
My name was Stanley Martrn Lieber and I left, well, if someday I'm
go,ng to become a writer or a great actor. I want to use that name for
th~ really rmportant things. I do-l didn't tig-ure I'd stay vc•y long with a
comic book compil.ny I didn't want to use my real name j•ost on comic
buoks, 10 I <hort~ned it to Stan Lee. Of course, what happen~d os I
stayed here so long that everyone knew rne by thd! name, dnd it got to
be ridrculous even to bother with the other name. I had problems with
my auto license, passport, and charge accounts at stores, so I finally
changed rny name_
I am now officially and legally Stan le~ (although I think someday
I'll change it bac-k to Lieber, JU<.t to really confuse my family).
Whon I ;tarted working here, I was about sixteen, and after a little
wh•lc, my bosses Jack K:rby and Joe Simon ieit, and I was all alone_
fhen, I was made the editor, because I was the only other guy around,
so I was a srxteen-and-a-half year-old editor.
Somellmfs I'd be n the reception room and some guy would come rn
and see me sitting there i~ my dungarees and sweatshirt, and say, "Hey,
kid, wherE can I Frnd Mr Lee'!" It always embatTa>sed me. because
I didn't wani to say, "I'm Mr. Lee" 'cause then I knew lie'd be embar-
rassed, so rnstead I'd say, "Just a minute, sir, I'll tell hrm you're here_"
Then I'd run out and say to the girl_ "Tell him Mr_ Lee went for the
CONFIDENTIAL MARVELOO 17 492

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58 $TAN Uo· CClN'J<RSATION$
day_" just to save him the embamtssment of waik1.ng 1n and seeing

nw_ So there arc a lot uf people I n~vN saw-just because I was so
young
Foom: Yeah, I still have that expen~n<e- I'll call someone on the phone
and they'il as1urne they're speaking to a middle-aged executive. Then
,'II show up, <md they'll figure I'm the messenger boy, and say, "Oh, give
I his to Mr. l(rafl," I don't due them in· I just <ay, "Oh. ;ure."
Stan; It\ a funny teeling, i;n't 1t?
Foom: What wa> 1.t l1ke 1n !he yNrs before Marvel?

Stan: We I, we were more·or.\ess a big factory. Unfortunately, we
wNen't really leader>, and I was so young that it never occurred to
me to try lo change lhings. In those days. young people weren't wally
as smart as I think they are loday. You had ,I feeling, you don't tell
older peuple what to do~--older people know bc>t. Years ago, ~obody
twenty y~ars old would dream of saying to a boss that th1ngs should be
donf diif~r~ntly So. I took 1! for granted that the way 'NC had always
don~ things was th~ way they should be done. The scnpts were
extremely Si!llplishc. and I always tMught the artwork was a little bettm
than the stories, in those days, alt!wugh some oi the plots were good
I'd like to thin~ I wrote a few good ones, hut basically they were oil one-
dnnenslonal fhe good guys were good guys, the bad guys were bad
guys, the 1tonfs had happy endings, and thal wa-1 the end of it_
We did westerns, we did w~r stories, we did romance storic.<, we did
funny an1mal stories, we d•d crime >tories. we did monster stones, we did
humor stones--there was no type of 1tory that we didn't do, at one lime
or other_ And I wrote all the d•fferent lypes I'd usually write the first
on~s. to set tile style_
R>om: Wasn't this about the t1me World War II began7

Stan: Yeah. And shortly after the war started, I sa1d to myself, "What am
I dmng here, wnting com1c books'!" I was seventeen or eighteen. I don't
know. "Gotta get in the army, be a hero like Errol Flynn or John
W~yne," so I enliSted. I figured I was gvod~~l'd go to penny arcades
and shoot those little guns and win prizes all the time,-.so I'd probably
become a real war hero Instead, they found out the kind of work I had
done. and they put me in the Signal Corps, inlhe film division, writir.g
training films ar<d instructional book1.
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LlAVIIlANIIIONYKHAio/)9// ~g
I wrote movie; and buok>, a.nd drew posters-<'dur~t'"""l thrng~. I've

~ever dlu>trated tormcs here al Morvel~·bul wlwn I was younger,
I drew I mu't have drawn a hundred posters for the army. all different
:<rnds I drew them I palnt~d them, did everythrng, I loved >t I always
wankd to be an M\1>1---Whlch 1\ why I like lhe wmic book bu\1ne",
i!lthough I couldn't draw a stnp now-- I'd have to go back illld ;tart
,to dying ~II ov~r agam I don't have tile pall€ nee for all the work
a~d the detail. Posters wrre easy. It wos one drawing, and you were
finiShed.
I've always be~n Impatient, which is a!so why llikr. com•cs- I Cilll
scnpt a sto•y in one day, or one afternoon_ I he thought of w•1ting a
now!, iMV1ng \o l1ve with 1t lor month<, do the plotting and pl~nning--
lhat's like wcrk. Wming a comic isn't You 11\ down, you spend a few
hours, you get up and ifs done
Anyhow, the army had me write books and i1lms about nothmgthat
I knew a.nyth1ng about. For Instance, at that t~rne I had never own~d. or
even heid a movre Cdmera, \0 I got a job wnting about thF operation,
ma1ntenonce. and care of the 16 mm trno movie camera, operated
under battle conditior•>. That was one that I had to write_
I knew how to read, so I would get hold of a training manual, read it,
and thBn I would do a film on 1t--or I would rewnte the manual in comic
book form. I r~wrotf a tot of lrarn1ng manuols a\ comics. I WISh I had
copies of tho<;e ~ow. 1 never thought to sclve any.
I found cul when I was discharged that there were only nine men in the
whole Un;ted Stales Army who had my mdita<y classification numb~r-
1was classified as a playwright And I was a serg~ant, a tough buck-ass ser-
geant But I wasn't tough! I WdS a skinny little curly-ha~red kid, and I felt so
embarrassed about 1t. Occasionally, t would meet these rough combat gU)l'i,
they were sergeants and I was a sergeant. So I'd wear !he dirtiest, oldc<i:
fatigue unifotnls I could find. I'd try to muddy up my lace, and I'd spit
a lot, I tried to look as tough as they were, but I always felt very out of
place
t almost got courtmart1aled orce. While I was Ill the army, I was also
still writing stories for the company I had appomted somebody to be
here while I was Ill the service He'd write to me every couple of weeks,
,;ayr~g: "Stan, we've got to have a Captain America story," or "We need
a De;troyer story," so I'd 'iay up one night or on a weekend and write it

ior him One day he call~d illld said he wanted me to do a story----<t was
a real emergency-so 1 >ard O.K.
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We lw! """I (ail thf Pext dily, and I asked, "Whee's my letter?" fhc
ma1l clerk ;aid, "I got oothing for you, Sarge." In those days, the ma:l<
wc•e very dependable_ He said he had nothir.g for me, sol figured re
g<>Ofed. Th1\ wa\ Saturddy, ond at lunch hour they locked the mad roorro
ard the clerk left. I happened to be wolk1ng past and I !<lOked in the
wmdow-and. >Jre cnaugh. there's my letter in one ollhe s!ots! The
guy ~ad pul1l 10 lhe wrong slot and he hadn't noticed, but I could
recognize it
So I ran to the Ofhccr of the Day and I 'a1d. "Hey, you gotta open
the mail mom for mo-l'vc got an 1mportant letter th~rc and I've g<>t to
get it !here'\ a whole company 1n New York waiting for me to write this
~.tory." The guy was read1ng a maga/lf\€ and didn't want to be di>-
!urbed, sol said. ''!'II open the mom mysel!."
1 wen: back to the mall room, took a >crew driver, and ju't unscrewed
the i<Kk on the door, opened 1t up, got my letter, p~t the lock back,
went horne, and wrote the story. A few days later, I got a call 'rom the
compd!lY commander_ I was his pet peev~. He thought of mf as a
·-.,;e·guy New Yorker_ I !c said, "Weil, Sarge, I got you now I think
you'll go to Leavenworth_ You robb~d the mrul."
I sa1d, "What do you mean. I robbed the mail?" He said_ "Did you
or d1d you not break into the rna1l room-'"
"For crying out loud," I sa1d, "there was a letter of m1ne there,
I couldn't lind anyone to open the door, so I opened it and took rny
own letter_" fie said, "fhat's a federal offense." This guy meant 1!, he
was all set to court martial me, and I don't know what would have
happened.
Well, luckily for me, the colonel. who was the commandant of the
po;t, intervened. I had just written a training manual on finance for him.
They were havin.>~ trouble training finance officers qu1ckly enough, >0
comes pdy day and the men in the foxholes wouldn't get paid_ There
wfren't ~r.ough p~yroll oir.cers around to pay them. It was wreakmg hell
With the moraie in the army. 5o I took ti"e manual that told \hem how to
fill out the forms, and I rewmte it in comic-book style. we were able to
cut the training time in half, lx>cause they could learn qwcker from this
comic book. The colonel from our post got a commendation, because of
Ihe book I r.ad written m fact, he expeded to make bngad1er general
because of it_ So when the captain calied to complain. and >aid he
wanted to wurt martial me, the colonel said. "Another word OLlt of you
and I'll send you to the South Pole."
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Jut I was ~lway; in lrauble. I wits 1n \>V~ a hundred t1mes. They

;h1ppcd me to d1fferent c1ties all ovPr the countr;- every oty I'd go to I'd
nw(-t 1ome ather galllhought wos ten die But I ~lways tell a little gu•lty
bce<Luse lwaln't overseas: I wanted to go to officers train1ng Y.hool,
b"cau;e I tigur~d 11 I bNamc a:icutenant, tl-:ey'd have to ;end me over-
oedl. And they wot~ldn'l ld '"''- T~ey sa1d, "We need you to write lhe<e
tilms and >luff, ar.d if you bewme a lieutenant, !hey II take you JWay
from us_" fhcy tore up my application
So \fH're I wa;, ~ <;!<>,eslde soldier.
Foom: And after the war, you came back to Timely?

Stan: Yeah. fllere waco time when we llad a statf ot dose to a hundred
people, ~Htl\11 and wnler\, I had three 1enetane1 my1elf, a.nd I kept
them busy. lu,ed to didate stones 1n lhe office. I wJ; d 5how-oH, in my
~arly twcr.ttes, as I look bac\: at 1t What I would <lo 'Nas dictate two or
thr~e stonQs at a t1me I'd qutckly dictate a page ot one story to one girl.
and while 1he W.J\ tr.:mscrrbrt\g 1t I'd d1ctate a page ot another \tory to
d!lo!he< gwl, ~!'<-; lht'n rMybf a thlfd one to a third girl. I h;;d lh11 great
feeling of power, lh<!l I 'Na\ ~eeping three secretarre; busy w1th three
stories, and I knew that occasionally people were watching--and I was
so proud_ We had a b1g >tatf, artists, writers, ed,tors, assistant ed1tors,
colomts, prooirPaders, a><<>mnt proofreaders _ and I got a kkk out of
playing to llw crowd
Foom: How (lid 1t compare to Marvel tO<i<>y7

Stan: Bigger. We had a b1gger sbff then we have today. Now we rave
other things---"wc hav~ circulation men, people in the licensing and mer-
chandizing departments We didn't have any of Ill at 1n tllose aays. we just
had artists ard editors and wri\ers. li was just th~ creative part And I WJS
never rnvolved w1\h anylh1ng but the creatrve part.
i didn't know what an engraver or a printer did I WJS just concemcd
w;th pmduung mater'al, taking care ol the ctrt and the scripts.
We've had so many guys who have gon~ on to gr0at things Many of
the people at Mad MagaLine and at National Lampoon used to be Wllh
us. AI Jaffee u;ed to write Patsy Walker and draw it, and he WJS an
assistant editor here, same with Dave Berg_ Jack Davis, who's one of ';he
tr>p advertising artds today-he does covers for Tirl'e Magaline, and for
NBC-has done strips for us. Mickey Sp1llane used to wnte stones for us.
Anyhow, we had our ups and downs_
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We uwd to have bad periods when t~e wm1c hook bm1~e'1 h1t rock
bottom_ ' renwmbH once my publ,,her said to me, "Stan, we h6.ve to
II·• the whoie staff go. l'rn ;ust going to keeo you, but I want you to fire
everybody." 1sa1d, "I can't do it" He sa1d, "You'd better!" and he went
off to flcnda, whrle I was given lf"-e JOb of firing rnore people than t
could count 1 think that'\ what I hated mo<;t about my JOb-whenev~r I
had to hrc anybody.
I used to put out extra books we didn't even ne~cl. just to keep guY'
working. If three was an artist or a writer who d1dn't haw dnythmg to
draw, 1! was ,\lway' so easy-you'd add another book. But after a while,
you reach the point that you can't keep domg that And we hnd our up;;
and our down> all \he time. There we1c good years, and there WHf bad
years. Strangely enough, with Marwl it'> been d>fferrnt We've never
had a bad slump l<ke 'hat
Foom: Do you thmk rt'> inherent 1n the n1arkct that there ar~ ups and
downs-----o1 was it JUSt the pfnod?
Stan: The problem was a deeper one. We were r.everthe lea dec\
Nobody was a leader, we were ;ill JUOt putting out books. We were
subject to the Irends, nobody created trends, not wtlly Simon and Kirby
c.amc out with romance books when they were working lor Crestwood,
ard they did pretty well tor a wh•le. Then everybody started putting out
roma~ce lmoks, and that f1nled out EC came out w'th their line of
books for a while, then they f1aled out There w~s a company cailed
Lev Gleason Publications, they w~re quJte big tor a lew years, u~til they
fizzled out. Nobody really lasted.
1thir.k that Marvel really changed things, because when we went
1n hot-and·heavy w1th the superheroe5, we otopped iollow1ng the
trend> and created our own, and by doing that we changed the whole
complexion of the comic book bus•ness. We weren't subject to the
wh1ms of fortune any rnore-we were really doing our own thinp;_
Foom: How did the changes that you must have gone through 1n those
years~especially with the <tart of Mar;el-affed your own thinking,
your own attitudes?
Stan: They made me very happy. We were tum1ng out those monster
magazines, and then one day my publisher found out that National
Carnics had a book called the Just1ce League that was sell1ng reasonably
well. Better than our mon>ter books, at least. And he said, "Hey, maybe
there's still a market for superheroes· why don't you bring out a terun
CONFIDENTIAL MARVELODt7497
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DAVID ANTI+OW l(qAI"I f 19/J 6.)
like lhe Jusl1ce League_ Wn could ~all1t the RJtlileous League or wrn~
thlng_., I worked tor h•m a.nd I had to do what he wante<J, oo I was wili-
-ng \n put out J team oi superheroes_ But I figured I'll b€ damned 1f I'm
;ust gc11ng to copy Nutionill.
l sa,d. "We'll dn c. q;perh~ro tNm, but let's make it d<ffer~nt" A~d
I thought th11 wos the chance to do all the thing-.< I would enJOY --to get
characters who acted l1ke real people, to try to be more ima.gmativo, to
make some stones have hdppy end1ngs and some not, to cont1nue tlw
stor1e1 and <et th~m m the real world.
Whde 1r•njc;yed dc;ing ll, I never thought 11 Wd> gcllng l(l <aldr "'' lhc
way it tFd. I never ~new we were starting- >omethrng new,~ a new phase
of comics.~ 1t was JU't a kick
Foom: When drd you real1ze what 'Nas going on?

Stan: I think whe~ the ian ma1l came in We never c;<,ed to get fan mml,
then all of a 'udden we were inundated wilh 1\. And 1! was wondertul.
Foom: So you charged your whole approach'

Stan: I re,1.lited this had always been my approach, bull never had the
sense to do 1!. I was now Wflting- the way I wanted to write_ Up unti! this
lime, I was wnting the way I felt the publisher wante-d-and it was my
job to please the publisher. So now I forgot about the publisher. I was off
~nd runn1ng: I was g<llng to h~ve fun w1th my things II came easy to me,
becau1e It's my own natural style. Even though the other stuff had come
ea>ily, too. I never really enjoyed it ThiS new ;tyle I began to enjoy.
I wasn't trying to writ~ <a lire I didn't even feel ilie >l:ortes were that
ditfercnt: alii knew was that 11 was fun to make !he'll continued, instead
o! each story existmg 1n a world of its own I got the idea that rf they're
going to he living in lhe real world, the choraders might meet each
olher once in a while. So we beg-an to l~t Spider·Man meet the Fantastic
Four in a story, or to have the Hull< passing by while something wa~ h~p
peninr, to Iron Man.
Of cour.<e, it was very ea;y for me to control, since I was writing vir·
lually all ollhem and could keep track ol them. Also, I could keep them
in the style I wanted I was cre.'\tlng my own universe_ Now, of course,
it'S a little mo'e difficult wilh d•fferent people writmg the d1fferent $!rips
and ever·changing writers and artists. One of our biggest problems is
keeping the styles intact, keeping the characters true to what th€y are
and what they should be.
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64 )MN Lot: CuNvfRIATID~S
Foom: I notice that tn rno>l of the Marvel Comics you Ldme up wilh,
'hNc w;;s Mver 4 complete farr.,ly unit. Tren· was Thor, Lok•, and
Odto-but no 'llolhe<; Peter Par,er ,;~d h~; Aunt, J Jonah Jame1on and
iH; ;or. '!Vhat's the ;tory behind thctl?
Sian: That's v~ry Interesting. I had never thought of that; I think tt iust
never occwred to me You ;ust have so much mom in a story Aloo,
1 th;nk rnn<;t of the legends are very vague ahout Od1n's wile or w1ves:
the few that I r€ad always ment1oncd different women, and I could
never p1n 1! down. <;o I thought cf him as a widower_
W<th Sp;deh\~an, part of the nmccpt was fle was liv,ng Wtth his
aunt and uncle, becau,;e h~ was an orphan His uncle was killed,
and then he was the main support of h11 aunt. so that was the basil
nl thdl.
I thought we rNiiy had more famtl;es involved than olher comic
boob. But1twould hov'' become too hard to handle, if I'd had w llaw
entire families-nephew\ Jnd n1eces and in-laws. Trere just isn't ruorn
for 1\, becau1e w1th any mow Incidental family characters, you'd never
have time to get 1nto the plot.
Foom: Since you're listed ao publisher, maybe you could run down just
what a publisher does?
what~ pubiLsher does. In fact, pub!i>her is a very
Stan: I don't really do
vague word. Usually, in this business years ago, the publisher was the
'ellow who owned the company. My publisher owned the compo.ny. But
today, no one-man owns Marvel ComiCS A conglomerate named
Cadence Industries owns Marvel, and thfy're a public company.
I, as publlsher, should be responsible for the b~siness end-for the
Circulation, financing, distnbution, and so forth. But I don't funct<on that
way. I work with Jim Gaiton, who's president of the company, and IS
involved in management-in contracts, keming, circulation, -Ana~c1ng,
and all that sort of thing. ll"n1t myself ju\\ to the creative dspcds. I'm
like an OWhlll editor and art director.
Also, I apply myself to new projects I've been 1nslrumentalu1 getting
us a relationship with Simon and Schuster. 50 that now much of our
material is being done in book form-and we're going to have more and
more In fact, we'rE working now on a series of our <trips just done in
popular paperback format, so you'll be able to buy a library of Marvel
Comics, perma~ently bound. i'm working on tP.Ievi,on shows for our
charade". I'm also working on movies for tilem.
CONFIDENTIAL
MARVEL0017499
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I med w1th the tdllor .wd <11\ dlre(ror, and w1th as much of the ;\all
as I can-~s often'" I can-to dcterm1ne the way th1ngs 'hould be,
BaSically, a better name than pubhshcr might be ere alive head of the
company_ I thw-k ;\'s imporlant In haw ;he t1tle pobli<her, llou\U\e when
I deJ! w•th a mov1e company or with Sirnon and SchuJtN or with other
outside wmpanies. tile word pub!i<hcr sounds so ;mpressive that I can
g~t the attention MarJe! needs by be'ng introduced a1 the publisher
reoplf n~vcr "'act guile as graciously when you're an ed1tor or a writer.

Peaple are funny
1Nh,,ll d<> m,llrlly" WOC<j about the product we are tL,rning out-
about the stnps. I m"ke sure we have the b~st editir.g. the be1t
wnting, th0 best r,rtwcrk, and that we're go1ng 1n the nghl drrett1on,
pulling LJut the right k1n<i1 of books_ I check the sales figure,, of course,
and I read I he boob ~s much ill I can_ As I say, I'm really like. w over-all
cxecut,ve editor_
Faom: How much >ay do you have over new proJects?

Stan: In l1fe, nobody has total say. President Carter, of he want< to do
someth1ng b1g, has to 1ave the approval of Congres:;_ If I w.~nt to do J
n~w magazine, I'm the ore who'' suppo,ed lo precipitate 11'-ese things,
but I th~n have to get the president of the company to okay the budget
to make sme_ I'm not go1ng to be spendmg more money than we can
afford. He, m turn, has to get the conglomerate, Cadence Industries, to
okay h6 okay. Basically, ,f there'l something I W<ir.t to do, It'll get don F. I
ulso silll do some writing. I wnte Stan's Soapbox. I write the new,paper
strips, the Origins book>, and film treatments.
Focm: Maybe you could taik olrltle about the newspaper stnp?
Sian: For years people have saJd, why don't you put Spider·Man in the
paper, but I wasn't anxious to. because I had a realfy rotten experience
with the newspaper syndicates, years ago_
I dJd a strip called Willy l umpkm, and another one a;lled Mrs Lyon's
Cubs. Now, W1/ly Lwmpkm was >upposed to be a great st"P· Orig1nally,
1t was about a cop on the beat. I wanted h1m to be a real hip cop, and
he'd m~et real people on a New York City beat I ~ad ;ome great gags_ It
was reolly going to be the Doone~bury of its day, way before Doone\-
bury c~me out. Political gags, urban cnses gags, and sll~ff l1ke that. !
brought it to this newspaper synd1cate, and I cailed it Barney'5 Beat, the
ncirne of the wp being Barney. They loved it.
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!hen, the head of the <yndicate said he wanted me lo chonge it to

a mdman_ He wanted 1i to bf' ~~~in a small town and to feature a
lovable (ha<acter that ~very body would love rhe k1nd ot 1trip they'd
understand in Chiilocoihe, Oh1o The next th1ni( I knew, 1\\ called WiJ/y
l-umpkin and it's a bucolic strip, and it thefe's one th1ng I'm not
comfortable w•th, 1t'> a b~colic 'lyle oi wnting_ I'm not that bnd of
a wnter.
But again, I wJS younF, and I thought they knew best i did the strip,
illld it Ia\ ted about a year It wasn't that b~d. but it wa1n't ;;_, g;reat '"it
should have b~en, Fin;;lly, I gave 1! Up
Vniualiy the same thing happened w.th f.~l, Lyon's Cub>, wlw_h was
about the Cub Scouts, Mrs. Lyon being the den mother_ I never want€d
to do th,1t, but I wanted to sdl d newspaper strip. I had tried a few great
ideas, but tney didn't bite, so one day I \did to tilis cartoomst jok1ngly
"I'll bet 1f I did ;ornething about Boy Scouts :hey'd take it, they'd think it
was n1cc and clean and re;pectab!e_ You cculd probably call il Mr;. IVOII'>
Cul!s and they'd say it was great."
I 'ubmitted it, and they took rll1ke thai, so I was stuck w1th a stnp
I didn't parlicularly want_ I don't know anything; about Boy Scouts and
even less about cubs! And that stnp died.
So I felt the people at ,yndtcates don't \.now anything.
A~ Marvel Comics became more and more popul;;r, over the past few
year>, newspaper syndicates would come to me about do1ng one of our
characters. I d1dn't want to "It wouldn't work for you guys," I said;
"you rum everyth1ng."
Finally, Marvel became so popular and so big that the syndtcote
people came to me and said. "Stan, you can do it any way you war,t
we won't interiere, we won't touch 1!'' Well, this wa1 incredible. Years
ag;o, it was hard to get my foot in the door at a newspaper syndicate,
so I figured, okay, I'll gwe it a try_
I discussed Sprder-M.m w1th a real nice fellow, Denny Allen of the
Register and Tribune Syndicate. I wanted ~\Jhn R.omita to draw 1t,
becau1e John and I had played around with one many years-we'd done
a few samples. but never did anything with them. The strip just started
tn newspaper> this January, and it's cme of the biggest·>elling 1ttips to hit
the country It's already in more than two hundred newspaper>. 1n JUSt a
month. The syndkate is delighted with it, but it"s hard to write, because
ever time I turn arour.d I've got another two weeks of 1! to do. I try to
wrtte •t on weekends.
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I 1old ~nothcr llnp, called The Virtue of v~ra Valiant, whkh doesn't
have anything w do w1th Marvel. That was~ gag, ~ho. I W<lllalk1~g to
some >ynd1cate guy who wanted me to do i\ Gelectrve newspaper >lnp.
I >a•d. "How can you 1ell a det~ctive strip to new;papers today? NG
dDtective ~!my can \utceed, tmiels 1l\ e1ther srxy or violent You can't
be s~xy or v1olent in the new\ paper." I told h'm you'd have lo do 'orne·
thing lh.J.t'l curn;nt, I<JmNh<ng- t•mely. For 1mtancc, 1f you d1d a takeoff
Gn Mary Hmlman, Maw Hmtman, 1t would probably ~~cceed. So 'he
next til ink I know, we'1e off and runn1nr,. llry to wnte V~ra Valw11 on
5at~rday and Sp1der-Man on 5u~day,
Then evenings I've got thes~ t>ooks for Simon and Schuster. We''"
do1ng one at>out the super women. wh1ch 1hould h~ f1ni,hed by now,
yeti haven't even begun il. I've gut to sl,Hllhallhis week. Then I'm
do1ng I HE SILVER SURFER w1th Jack Kirby-a hu~dred"page Grig1naJ
ha.rdcover. I'm exe~l€d obout that I hope it turns out to be a great book.
I'm aloo dn1ng How to DrJW lor the Conws with John Bu;wma_ l'rn
dmng an Encydoped1a of MJNel Comir> with George Olshev1ky, which
I th1nk is go1ng to be a real fun th1ng. It's going to be l1leraily an
fn<-ydop<'dia, 1mt of the Mntvcl Un1verse Two big volumes, pmbably~
or mciybe one huge book Anyway, I've got those four to do_
I ju>l had lunch with cl guy from '>irnon and Schuster, .'\nd he wants
two more Origm5 books. for the next two years.
And then I write a column-a little paragraph, every month or so~
for Celebrity, the "Publisher'' Pe,-.;pcdive," and of course I abo write
the -'Soapbox" for the Marvel Bullpen Page I write advertisements for
our uther stuff Fn trade papers, dnd so forth, and I'm tile consulting edi-
tor or assocHle producer of our teleV11ion and movre projects. so I've got
to read all those scripts and glVe opinions.
Foom: What can you tell us d.bout them?

Stan: We're work1ng on a Spider-Man pilot film for CBS-a live-action,
prime·t1me series, l1ke the Six Mrllion Dollar Man. The scnpt has already
b~en written by a very good writer, a guy who's written a zillion televi-
sion shows. I'm working with him as consultant on it, and 1t'll be on the
air by the end of this year, 1f all goes well. We're working wrth Uriversal
Pictures on a deal to take four of our characters and Co a televJSion
sene>-also live-actron. We're also working on a Classics Comics ani-
mated show-Marvel Cia; sics Com1cs-whrch i,; v<ery e'citing. We
may do the animation ourselves, we may set up our cwn little animation
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studio There Jce probably olher thrngs that I'm not rernemlJHrng .1\ ;he
:?1omcnt---therc's rea!ly a lot happening.
Foam< Wbd<evcr happened to tile movie you we<f worki"g on wrth

/Ibm Resn«is''
Stan: I never >roem to have the trme to get to,;_ In fact, he WJS here this
rnvrn,,g_ He ju>t tm,shod hi< latest movie. ProvldPn(e, and ht• a;ked me
when we were go1ng to start. I told him I -1eed at leo't sl' months lo
clear up the things I'm doing, >0 he said he was asked to do a very qwck
mov-e ;n Franc~. and maybe wh~n he's firi,hecl, wrill stnrt Sooner or
later, I'm gorng to have to do tim picture with Ahun, who-, on~ of my
dooeq and de~re1t lnends.
Foom: I; it anylh<ng related lo Morwll

Stan: Todly separate. It'' called The lnm,11e5, and rt has to Go w1th the
whole human race, why we're on Earth, and what our rflat•onshrp is wrth
the re<t of the Unrverse. It poses a theory which I hope" a very onginal,
unu;u~l one. But II\ done rn human term;, like a regular story: rt'' nola
far-out science fidion thrng. It's very phr!osoph•cal-but there" a :mot
science fiction. I think it's a great story_ I've wrilten the treatmer,t for :1, and
I oug-gesiD:l that Alain get another screer-wrrter ;o do lhe screenplay based
on my trea.tment. It'd 1till b~ our story: I'd still be involved in it; yet. lh«
way, we wouldn't haw to wait. But he keeps .<aying-llr. wants it to be my
scrrpt wmpletely-~,he wants •I to be my lar1guage. So I'm vc•y flattered,
although I don't have the time to do •I, right ~ow.
Foom: Over the years, you've done some things outsrde the corn res field:
Are there any we haven't covered?
Stan: I useD to wnte radio shows. Unfortunately, I can't mention trtles,
because I ghosted them under other people'; nar!'es. I wrote 1ome west-
em radio shows, years ago, and a detective radio show. I gholted ,,
number of television shows. I ghosted new.<paper comic strips. I wrote
the ~Jowdy Doody newspciper strip, whch I was able to put my name
on. I did some adverlisrng work. I love wnting advertising copy. fhc one
other thrng t do is a lot of lecturing- I go to schoo!s all over the country,
all the time, and I love it, because it's tile closest you can get to being an
ad or Wllhout actually ading.
Foom: And rt also keep> you in close touch with ih~ re~ders_
Stall: Well, that's the most important thing. Actually, I think I learn much
more from 'lle people I speak to, th~n they're learnir;g from me! We
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hav<' a quesliom-,md-d~lwer·c, sectron a her each lecture, -1nd ! learn so

rwch by the questions th,•y ask ,,bout what they're rntere<ted in and
how they fee! It\ rnvaluabie
Foom: Wh;;l do yo" lhr~k <~bout the M2rvel mercha~dbe. whKil seem;
to have been burgeonrng 'alely?
St~n: VWII, rt's ve<y good tor us, because it's gr~at wrnme, Jnd the mo~ey
chat we make enab!e; '"to pay the artist<; and wder5lo put out more
bnoks. If you wJJlt'cG :-:now whalllhrnk ,]h<Jut tlw items tr~mdves, I
rNIIy don't hnve mud1 to do with tO em, Gr pay much dltvntron to them
5ome of the toys ;.nd r:ames and co!urrng boob or~ great. I'm <U<'. it\ the
type of thing that's reolly very i1ad to keep up with unless you >pend all
your time working on rt Rasrcally, the few things chat ''vc 'ccn have been
pretty good, though_ :h also very r.ice to know t~at penplc iikc Maovd
enough lo buy a>! th<'le varrous things- --oo i'm quile happy woth rt
Foom: Wh~oe do you ;Pe Marwl gorng m the future?

stan: I h«ve pi dyed most of my lrfe by ~or, without too much of a tna\ter
plan. 1 guess I'm inclined to feel the \Jm<' way about Marvel I see nGth·
rng but great thrngs "or us, but a> to specifically where we're going, each
day I gd a d•fferent feeling about it. I think we'r~ gorng to be big •n tele-
voslon and movres. hentuolly, I would really !ove it If we could produce
our own moton prdures Jnd TV <haws_
1 don't lmow why we couldn't, b~cau<e to me the media is all very
srmrlar-there·s not much difference between a new< paper and a magaz:ne,
or a movre, a stagP play, a show_ lt'5 all the <,ame--rt\ ~II a part of entertain-
ing and strmulatrng the pub!ic. If you k~ow how to be interestrng and how
to make people care .1bout what you're say•ng. doing. or thrnking-!hen
what's the difference whether you're doing, rt on screen, in print, or in front
of a microphone' Since I ted Marvel" pretty good at entertaining the
publrc, I would lil(e Ul to be doir,g it in every type of the media.
I think maybe we should publish 1ome more glossy magazines, hig~er
priced--and I don't mean h!;~ National is doing, just buck comrcs---·but dif.
lerentkmds of magazrnes.
To me. the most fufi you can have is doing new thrngs. I don't know
where we'll be three, four, or live years from nGw, but you can be
mrghty sure we'll be going on a do~en different dkedions----and movrng
faster than ever'
Ex ceil lOr!
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EXHIBIT 53
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Stan Lee
It's a Marvelous Life
Whlle toiling at Marvel
Productions, "The Man"
.remembers some of his
world's greatest heroes
and plans New World
projects to come.
" ~ By (;UI'FOR!l METIIll< DANIEL DICI<llOL'!J:
hlo fonoJJy, frWvb and tho llldwlry

T
0
he helped 10 Jaunc:ll, he II o lwo. Bul
to tho mlllJom of Jam """' rsxl
Mamd ComJco, Slon Z.... II boHor b1owu COMJCII SCENE> MU'\>'01 p.-m. 1111
.. a horo mabr. MDII a{ Ulln'Ol'o - ~ wbont bora. ...Uy
~Tho Fanlaoll: Four, ~ oxlot Do you thlnlt tbat'o liD imporlaDt
MCIII, Sllnr Surftrr, The A - . '""' cootrlbutiolll
Man, Hulk, Tho X - M - from STAN LEE: Y.._ E.-ybody no.is
Z.... 'o [erliJo Jmosinai!oo ln collabonlliOP huoe•. Everybody thould have
wllh lopndary ortJdlc tolonto )ad: Kirby oomebody to look up to, 110111obody to
and su... Ditko. upin to be lib. II> my cao, I reod
er.dlted a• u,., IUY who "'huma:niied" lep1lda. Robin Hood, Tho ~.
IIA...!'I"'t .upoorhmo-. Loo JOipod M""'"'
Tunojy Cmniaj . . a 18-,YOCII'<>Id -
(!hen Sberiock Holma. l .. ,. Enol F1yDn
In movloo, and 1 wuu.d to be Enol !'lynn.
1939. Throu&ftaut tlw '4111 and '!101, be woo EV!II')' timo118fl the theol8r, I bad a crook·
libt any atbor wri10r, Cl't!nldn1 Old ocodo of od lillle 111nlle ou my r..c. and I
fonnulo s10riH for titloo.lllte Cambot!Colly, ,_bbucklod down tho .......,., Until I
MiWo tho Model and ZidY I'll. He f!nolly wu 10 ,..,. old, r wlabed 1 bad .... on!
bucbd tlw - in 19110 and boson ot my side. I would ralhor bJwo b.n Errol
wrtuns comJc boob /til own way. F1yna or Sir Arthur Conan Doylo or
!Jon>ojopJns ...,. af c:honx:ton and Sberloct Holmeo or Tarun or Bdgor Rloo
breatlttng new life in10 old fovoriteo-ruch Bunooah,o at H.G. Wolle. All of th.e peo-
as Captain Am!!rlca end the Sub-- ple .....,.. my n.n-. I uaumo tbot
Mariner-Lee care{ully WD\IW stone. and OJVIrybody'o lllt.o that Wo oil han people
charocten lofjether roap.opero otylo in10 - admiro. octon wo admire. fktlonalC"'-
what IJ today known 01 "The Mamd citomcterl we admue. ond if we dldn'tt<)
UniWNIS," what would we ever have to aim for?
llilinl to Marvel's holm "" publiaher ln Wbat goe.J~ would wa have?
1972. today, Lee heodJ Ho/lywood'o CB: On you 91ill have berooo?
JA926
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j
!...,._-(
l1 "y'-
·i i
_..,.Muy._u..
l
llulyllolldoo_A. _ _.,._N_)Golalqioal_.by..._
LEE: SUA. Stovon S~ Go<qe Clanmont baa camod k maay otepa fur· Rawbldo Kid. tho Toxu Kid, tho Rlnll"
! Lucu. Woody Allon. Kurt VotlftOiUI. U..., but lt't >till tho tam0 thaor,. Kid. Apache Kld-ho laved tho name
~ Crei!Dfl' McDonald. who wrillll l'1olciL I CS, Moat Marvel b - ano JlOOille with "kid." Wo did war otnrtaa: 8a!tlo Grady,
go throup lifo ba.U.1 barooo. problema. Wu that jUot a taloa llDJie! Combat KoUy, 8atdojlold,llattloground, 011
f CS. At their boot. wbat do comic boob U:E: Not at alii I bad t-n wr!tinJ duU and""- Wo Wd romance boob: My t.o ...
iCcomplhb? .ton. for yMJ11 bcauM I wu the Your Love, Hi.J Love. TnMI Romanc:., Your
LEE: Woll, I've onlf thougbt about thano ultimalo company rtW1. I did wbat my Romunoo, My Romance, anythlnc. Wa
from one potnt-of-vlew and that ia en tw-o ~r wanted b.:t.u.N ( felt thafs t:hl wste ru.l m.a&l producer&. I wrot•lfirtual.
l:linmenl Th..t'11 their pri:mary fu.nc.t:iorl:: way It lhauld b ...... you work (or ly all oi them.
10 ao!HWD. tomobody, you do wbat bo toy&. For 20 lalwayawantodtoqultbecauoo,wbilol
CS. But ceNinly, when you were ad- Yetn. I wu crfndint out tho typo of wu maldna a Uvinc. I loll I wuo't IO'tinl
em-ma tucb llaUea u tho dntt problem otorioa bo wa.ntod and I won't opolo&lm anywhere.! told my wife. "Hcnoy,l wont
in tho '80a, you wore moldnt ot iaMt an lot !hom. l1>oy w""' jpJOd for what they to try wrilins other stul!. rm golnl to g!w
atlt!mpt at IOdol commonlofl'.
LEE: You'ro ahoolu'"lY fi&ht BuL tho 11m
were. Tbuo wano W.-ma: Kid Co\L tho thla up." Sba &ald. "Stu>. you'ww *"
ob)octl.. Ia to entorlalll. Tbon. wbat bop.
petll 1a wh.MJ you'rw wrltin& • atory, you
tarmot-lt IHAt 1 CUI..Ilot-dJ~on::e
yuuraoll from tho world omuod you.
Yau're wrltint a Jtory tD Mt:ertaiA. but
wbile you're wril:i:nt: it. you're awll'tl of
tho prob!omt of tonoritm, of povorty, of
·; -
crlmo. WbUa you writo, you can't ho!p
putti.D& your OWD pblloaopby Into tho
What...,. I thousht ot ! UMd

olwaya
l!"ftd.
tbouaht wbat I wu
10 wrila.
dolnt
r .. alway• coasidand myaoll ano
of tho good tuJa, ono altho IUJa woortna
a whlte bat So, I ower woniad. I alw•fll
w•
1
tried not Ia u.- my OWD. per:sonal opi-.

niona to lnftuance k1da about thlnp that
were puntly my <nvD opi:D:ian.. 1 n.sMI'
tried ta diacuta polltka "' reUtPoo-
CS: In T1u! X-Men. th.n'a an anti-mu1.UL1
foor ~101 amongst tho p<>PUia<e. It
-rot 10 be a brllliaDt way of dopidinJ
the wodd.'J prejudice.
LEE• Thia wu tho boru of tho ori&IDal
book. One of my blgoot problema. when
l tried to cru.te char.cters YMn qo, wu
tryin& to find In BXCUM £or them tO WM.f
ma11klll.lld have HICl'8t identttiel.l und to
think. ~ I wmt a !IUporbero, I would want
~veryono to. know, Wby would ( want to
conceal my Nientity? So, l had to cotf\41 up
with ncuJM. With Th& X·Men, the ex&
CUM 1 cam8 up with WU people FNI'
tbinp that •~ dllferout. Tbey d1atruat
ruporto< poople. Cortainly, tho X·MOD
w!!lre s.o 5Uperior that they ruUzed. th•t
the only way they couJd live Wely In our
gociety wu to keep their pawen and
identitiel!l' un.k:nown.I believe 1 ttat.abllab.d
that ln. the fint story, and U VIIOtke:i. Chrit
t-lhouPiiooyUdoo_,.-
L.- _.... _,. U.. F....UC Foar wu •
dliT.na:l: .n ol .. , .......
JA927
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.
'
?
'
____ ......, __
- o l l l l o A _ ....... _ _,
c.,o.ilo-
l lrlod to do It tho ....,. I tboughl

Fnuuatod lor yoora becauoo )"lQ - ~ >bould be iD roolllfo. I ....,
roolly wrote the ldJ>d of ""'""" you lliod to bo dilraNot by - iJivtnl tbom
wanted.. Befora you I~ wbJ don't you cootumeo. but that - • - - Tbo
just tab oomo booi<IIUid write them )'OUr OM thtnt !IUpwhero reeden "'ou.'t
way? What'• the bit d.a1f You waot fo tolarate lo • hera Without a coau- I 110<
loo\>0 oD)'WOJ. so wbot'll !hoy du, fuw • lot a( ttWl after the tlrot illuo: ''Love
your• yow book! It'• woodMtull Baot lhln1 I
I •tartod wtth tho Fanlaltlc Four. Wo "IH' feld.J Conp-atu..lati~ But if you.
didn't lave any superhi'!'Qel. tben. We don't give thftll coatumeo. !'U ......,. buy
woro doU. monster storlot. My publioher ano<hor iostlo." So. I don't !avo to bo b.l!
•aid to mo, "You kqow, I've '-nlooking on the he.d. We put costul1ltll on lbem.
at '"* llguroo •ad DC Comic>' }<Wktl Everything oloo workod.l,....tbought ~
L.aguo of Amonca Lt oo!JJns vory well We would JO!Iwell.llljurod I'm plllna K aut
gboulcf do a few superheroe. and put of my •)'Stem. and thea I'm Fins to quit.
them topthor." I uld, "Fino." But l WeU. it wu the beaftellin8 book we lad
wun't Jotnl to do it the fanner w•y. in ye.n. So, we brought out Thll
CS: Wb.ich wu? Avttn~n. Spldef'oMan, The Hulk.
LEI!:: Bland. They all fight topther, lovo CS: Joel< Kirby did olmnot all of them with
ooch other. Typlcal group. I figured l you. except for Sptderr-Man. which wu
would mab one 1 IDOD.dM', anoth.r the Ditko''·
hero'• llancee. the third. her ldd brother LEE: l gave Klrby Spider·Man lim. liDid
who'1 a little bH of liP Itch. Jrll h.ad this character J wanted to do, I
!0 COMICS SCENE
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ed. Ha ~ the CJoat U:n.&c:mative. tb. roc:wt

cr.tiv. JUJ f bave 8vet known in tb.l.
buain- Hill llllDd it ...,.,.u.. IOW"C8 of
mrt.. cODcapb aDd MIMI- He wu a faD.
tutlc artlo! with ... ol tho moot -
ful. dnmatlc styleo you could ...... IID.
CS: Other llw> IGrl>y aDd Ditta. who
wl!l'e some of lhl rMJ..Iife b.roel of
Mo<WI'o put?
L!J:: Onto IIUY wi>o I mlu ~
w un't an offtcW utilt. Sal Brocl.tlr::J. He
wu my ~~;~~iltult for raan UKI tt.. com-
paoy'• produotioD llood. HI could .......
ba could draw. ba could l.nk-ba could do
overythlnJ. But ba worbd i.o productiD<L
Aod boy, thai wu a looo !'or them. Of
~ then .... Cut a....,. wbo dld
tho Hum.on Ton:b aDd BW E - wl>o
dld Lila Sub-Mariner. I odmind !hom 10
much wbao I A,.r p lnlx> tho buo-.
CS. Wl>o U'll your !a....U. MatY111
cbanu::IMoT
LU: Maybe Spidor-Mua aDd tbo stlnr SIDc:e N- World bought our compo.oy, I
Surfer. I p ....., pbtloonpbJ lmo tho comJc book - work very cJoooiJ wltb tbotr movie aDd
SU... Surfar llw> anydUDa I ...- w..,.._ lllODthly ill -
... about 20 -
ol tbrwo dur.-t boob, 1V ~ 011 oD Monol.projecta.
Ho Wll lliwaysli'rinl blo opiDioDI about thaft'a DO WI:J we cao work tt oql So. 1 C1: C&DDOil FUDu IIIII - to bo tryhl1
lifo. llborly ood tho punuil ol bapp- I iuM JO my ..., with my - IUid 1D pt tbo 5pd A!OD aDd Gaplllfn
Ubd blm . . _ ba wu oo ollbooL I Manoi Comico -
-·--ADd--
!boir WIJ with Amorial m:m. aoJq. Wbot'o their cur-
thJalr. tbotn. I don't ba" -
5urfw tab aDd Mary J- f-'IIOiuoT
tbat I -,.,.,... 11
aDd- Jolu> "'Tho -
~ draw .,. a boooymoon ot oiL 'T'boJ d.ddo to U:llt Woll, CoDDOD II slilllly!DIJ to -
lha boat 11 comlet that ba.. - b.tl up wltb tho rilht JCrip1L N- World
doDL Tbey'rw clualcL livec
Ia ot - - . . . . Muy )aoe'o woril- would llbo ID buy tbooo bock From C....
CS: You'rw atill wriiiDI Sp0ior-M0111 Ill bJo ID& aDd bo ioll'l. Tho nr.t plottioo that I non aDd produce them thomoon. aDd at
doddlntl to become • profoo- tbo ~ I doG 1 rwoDy blow wboro
dally - strip """ It - your bavo II -
ldoo ID JDOn1 b1m olf. H - did oD that ttioDol - · aDd tbot'o whet rm tbeyii&Dd.
"""" about? wrltlna ot tho momeat. rm - <plllo ourw CS: Wbot- chotoc1ortla N- World
LIIE: Wall I lowJd out thotln tho c:omJa wboro I JO from tb... I ..,.... roolly /o:>nllmlld aa - IH)
boob. Morr Ju>o w- mow Spidao- """"'how t b o - wW .m UAI!IIotart
M...,'• rwal idolltltJ wu - Pubr, It . wrltfDa tbom.
w10 a ourprioo 1D - So. I IIITOnp:l ID CSIID tbo lldp'o llriJ t:OIIdmalty, Spldor-
bow Morr J01111 loam Splder-Mm'o .._. Mu - fithttDa Dr. Doom aDd Dr. CJo.
t!ly La tho .... _ olrip, 10 !bot tho
topua. but .. - - on, thoro......!
comlc aDd tbo strip wauldD1 bo too cllf. to bo , _ oupol<"ri!WDo aa baDd. WbyT
r....u 1n>m IIOCb - n-. I fltund. Lilli: Tbot W10 -.....!. II woo a .,..,
naw that obo mow. who bo Ia ODd lb.,-,. CONfuJiy conoidelod decloloo. I r.Jlzod
l>otb la loft. It would - to 1111 tho !hot tho - rood.mlp Ill qullo
lop;allhiDJlo !'or blm 1D pn~-. ADd I dtfhnnt-mo•tly •dulta. m•nJ
dnoamed up wball tbauab< woo tbla -
•Y _ , l'or bar 1101 to ~ obo Mid Spidii'M.., -
WOlD X to.,
IJid 1f.it tb. 1-.t way'
ID - 1 lt lib a ooop
wttb
.........Uy tbay would wtml to ba" opon. lib Mary Worth. Tho OII!J dll-
cbildtoo. aDd obo couldll't boar tbo fatmco bolntl 11'1 • ooop open obcut •
tbouiht of o child who mltbt aawl 011 JOUDI arod otudout wbo boo o oupar-
wolls. Onto thJnt lad to OIJDib.r aDd Potor powor. Gl\oell tbo fact that ba woan a
took o Dlood ,,.. to Bud out llblo opld• CCitWDit occuiooally, climbo "" woDo
powor migbt bo borodltary. Finally, sbo IUid owiDp OB • wob. I lrJ to Uop
agJ'Md to m.arry b.im. And 1 wu It a con- """l'JJhlnn oleo u noollollc • I can. Par
vonllon wtth itbon Mornl I!<JUDr.in. Spidor-M0111 ill tho ..wspapora. I thJalr.
chiofJ Jim s...,._, taJ1:in1 to tho - " thoro lha bart l'ormulo.
la the oudloDca. uul I mentioo..t that I C8: Wbat IDtiCIIy doll your pooilion ot
planned ID bno Peter uul MJ pt mu- Morvel Productlono llllaliT
riod. I turned to Jim IUid >Old, "Hoyt U:llt I wt&h I know (Joua/11~ It Ill 10 ..,_.
Wouldn't K bo IICIDithlnc If you did tho mdod. I do "' m0111J lhlllp. I - rm
..,. lo lha comic boobr )1111 ald. tho baod of donlopmoct II tbo studio; I
"Tbat'o o grwot Idea." work with my ua1ataut. Tony PMtiX, La
CS: Whet will bappouln tbo O>m!c strip diYOio!>IDI now 1:1.1 for >howe aDd
after the hOIII)'niOOD1 videoco-. rm aloo i.ovalved lo !rJinl
LEE: In th• strip. t:herw itn't IIYft. goiJl& to to lceop our ltv..ction motion p!cturw
bfJ a ho'M)'Dloanl It'• au lmpou.lbl. for Ul pmjocts on trod. lo ~ tbooo projoctl
to de the laDM storia bec:au.e. u you cm up, ond lo maJdna JWO tbo1 they're beins
imilJ].ne, the comic. atrip rune tw'o or cion. the correct wq". St..mJ.J.arlyt l ban
thn~~~~ pene!s • day. an. day at a time. Tb:. t:be H.Die functioo on our TV projecta. ........... .......,..
n. ~ x..w...... ,.. "- .......
COMICS SCENE J?.
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Lee
lconllniiOd fi'Om poao 17)
<nte,..ted <n d...iop!Ds?
LU: Tho X-Mon. Or. Slnnll"- PowM
Man. 1M. Suh.MI.t'iner awi a numb. or
othoro whlch I doo"t !hink l ahauld 11101>-
tion bec.UM tbey'N •till too new. We alao
have th• FI.Jltutic fou.r belnl done by
NII\M Coo.rtaallD.. the company which
ptO<iuced N~ Sl<wy uu! Tho
Name of tho&... and Nid Pwy. Jlpnt of
S.H.l.E.LD. II at PIU'I.mou.Dt. I would
think 10011111 or later aU of our chara:cten
wW hJt the .:reaa. lt't only 1 m•n. of
t1oM bofDn Iron M... aDd Oarwdovil do.
CS: Didn't you try your bud ot • Spldor-
Man ocnpl!
Ll.l.: Not I ICript. l wrot. an outlb. oq
whlcb !be p - owvto ill buod, tho ooo
oo wbich Coaaoa Is woridn&- They've
gi"'WW:: lt to a IIWDbll of dUhNDt wrttlm..
Elclt , _ - bu made hla OW1I
-~ lllontlouo oa tho oudlno, but it'• bu.i
oo my oritiMI lltDry. 1D foct. I'.. oJoo
doDo uotbor ori,m.l llory wbich N-
Worid will produao whlch lm't a M......
charoct.r but _.,. ....,. ID do • comic
book buect on Jt u 1000. u lt pU fu.rther
Llonr ID prodlu;ttoo.
Cl: '- it IIIOiboo a~porborul
Lilli: No< qulO.. 1~1 man ol 1 C.Utuy-
odvomun. rnovia (Oocmlallon lOOOJ, but
it'o ID tho Nporboru - altbouah ~
ian'ta typical COIIUmod chanoctor.lrUap-
pool to thor typo of .....,_. I bopo
[lauaho~
CS. N- World i.l oJoo lblaidna about •
Tbor TV - · Do YDII lmow il !hot will
bo lllllhfld to tho comic booll1
Llll: I'm 1rJ1D1 to .............. Wo bod a
~about lt. Lot me put itlhll way:
It woo' vtalotlo ...)'lllq iD tho comic
booiL lD litd. ~~·. • . . - lllllqwo Uld
amlllkll !d.. I don't want to NJ mora
llwl that. but tho - ' " who W.. Thor
will pt 1 ldcl aut of lhll pmjod. Buical-
ly, virbWir...., ooo of our c:lww::tcs io
ia """" ..... ol dlrveiopmeaL
CS. Do )'QU - pt llrod of HollywoodT
Do you. 11¥111' . . &D. UJ'III tD 110 back to
WTHirqJ comic boob asoJDI
LEI: l 1DW1 bo boaoot Uld admlt that l
atia comJca. I .aUu tbe axcltemeat Main--
ly, l mi.ll tho people; I lo\ow:! tho poople
wllh wbom I worbd. I oJoo mi.ll tho ra.:t
!hot iD tho comic boolt bualoooa. you can
pt ao - for a booiL pt toaotb•r with
iUl utili. do tt. aad thrae or four IDontbJ
1.1181". tho book ~ on .Z.. lo tho movia
I:M.ai.n.e,. you cao speed yean befont 1
projol:t ...t:hoo tba ICIWD, if it .... d-.
H...._.. I'm no< tho l.n bit lin!d of
HoUywocd. I"R ....,. retire. llovo what l
do. I love the movie and TV bu..tioeu. a.nd
I've n....., had man~ fun. The oo.Jr thina
that would mab my prafuaional lite
even bolter would be !l Muvol Comica
wu iD the .same buildins and 1 wu work·
inl on lM comia and the movfas and the
telovi.tioa and the lllli.matloo all at the
M COMICS SCENE .sam• time. That would be b:aaven. •
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Page 13
15 of !49DOCUMENTS
Copyright 2009 Newstex LLC

All Rights Reserved
Newstex Web Blogs
Copyright 2009 io9
io9
September 22, 2009 Tuesday 6:30 PM EST
LENGTH: 623 words
HEADLINE: Who Created Spider-Man? [Kirby Lawsuit]
BODY:
Sep. 22, 2009 (Gawker Media delivered by Newstex) ··
It's been confirmed that that Jack Kirby's heirs are, indeed, including Spider-Man and supporting characters in their Jist
of Marvel characters that they want the rights to. The only problem with that? Well, Kirby didn't really create the
character.
The Hollywood Reporter's Heat Vision blog confirmed Spider-Man's inclusion, and mentions that, although the ·
character first appeared in a story by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko, Kirby was "key in the character's early development."
But how key, exactly?
Lee has gone on record (inore than once) naming Ditko, not Kirby, as the character's co-creator, and Ditko's account of
Kirby's involvement tends to support that argument
Kirby had pencilled five pages of his Spider-man. How much was pure Kirby, how much Lee, is for them to resolve.
The splash was the only one with a drawing of Spider-man. A typicaJ Kirby hero/action shot. But the costume is what is
important. .. fm uncertain about the abstract chest design. The closest thing to it is the one on Ant-man. Kirby's
Spider-man had a web gun, never seen in use. The only connection to the spider theme was the name.
The other four pages showed a teenager living with his aunt and uncle. The aunt was a kindly old woman, the uncle a
retired police captain, hard, gruff, the General Thunderbolt Ross type (from The Hulk), and he was down on the
teenager.
Next door or somewhere in the neighborhood there was a whiskered scientist-type involved in some kind of experiment
or project. The end of the five pages depleted the kid going toward the scientist's darkened house.
That is the Spider-man "given" to me.

EXHIBIT
\(" ~

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Page 14
Who Created Spider-Man? [Kirby Lawsuit] io9 September 22, 2009 Tuesday 6:30PM EST
That is the total of Kirby's Spider-man "creation." That is what he "created," brought into existence- five un-used
pencilled pages of an unfinish~ story ... Almost all of the bits of this "creation" (the scientist, magic ring, etc.) were
discarded/never used. So what is left of the "original creation"? A name, a teenager, an aunt and uncle. Is it to be
believed/held that a name or its "idea" could "cause" a rejection "creation" and "cause'' others to "create" a complete,
accepted, and successful one? How is that accomplished?
Above: Ditko's comparison of Kirby's Spider-Man design to the finished character.
The Kirby family claim seems to be based in Kirby's rejected work - which didn't resemble the character as he
eventually appeared, other than the name -.and a claim Kirby made in a 1982 inter:view with Spirit creator Will Eisner:
Spider-Man was discussed between Joe (Simon] and myself. Spider-Man was not a product of Marvel.
This is, again, misleading; that "Spider-Man" also never saw print, but instel;ld became 1959's The Fly. and was a
reworking of a previous Joe Simon character (co-created with artist CC Beck) called the Silver Spider. Simon has
suggested that the discussion of a character called "Spider-Man" -or actually "Spiderman," according to the unused
logo from that time- led to Kirby suggesting the name to Stan Lee years later, at Marvel Comics.
So why does he end up on the list of characters named in the lawsuit - and will the battle over Kirby's contributions to
this character derail discussion over characters he has a much clearer claim over?
Newstex ID: GAWK-0015-38169909
NOTES: The views expressed on blogs distributed by Newstex and its re-distributors ("B!ogs on Demand®") are solely
the author'& and not necessarily the views of Newstex or its re-distributors. Posts from such authors are provided ''AS
IS", with no warranties, and confer no rights. The material and information provided in Blogs on Demand® are for
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on Demand® is "read and approved" before it is posted. Accordingly, neither Newstex nor its re-distributors make any
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Reader's comments reflect their individual opinion and their publication within Blogs on Demand® shall not infer or
connote an endorsement by Newstex or its re-distributors of such reader's comments or views. Newstex and its
re-distributors expressly reserve the right to delete posts and comments at its and their sole discretion.
LOAD-DATE: September 22, 2009

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The JACK FAQ. ·Page 4 Page I of 4
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How ts "Oarkseld" pronounced?
© 2007 Mark Ey;'!nltr
As if spelled "dark side," as In ~the dark side of man's nature." Hosted by Preamhott
That's how Kirby always pronounced it around me. But at least once,
-. - -~~
when some fan who pronounced it wdark seed" was excitedly telling 8,1!!!~11Clilffl;
Jack his theories about the character, Jack went along with It, rather
than correct the kid. And the kid went around telling everyone who'd
previously told him he had the name wrong, "No, I was right. That's
how Jack Kirby pronounced it."
Jack occasionally did that with people. He hated to dampen

enthusiasm and passion, and so would often "go with" what others felt
or belleved. So his attitude was kind of Hke, "If you want to pronounce
It your way, go right on ahead. H
How dk:t Jack feel about other writers Imposing their political beliefs on
captain America?
I covered that in this article, Basically, he thought Captain America

was bigger than any one writer's momentary politics, which Is why he
didn't lnject his own into the stories he wrote.
Why did Jack change his name from Kurtzberg to Kirby?
Well, It certainly wasn't from any desire to hide the fact that he was
Jewish, which is something that has occasionally been suggested by
folks who didn't know him. Jack was very proud of his heritage and
faith.
When he was starting out in his career, he was somewhat frantic to

make a living and very prolific. fn many of the publications in which
his early work appeared, he did multiple strips and, like other artbts in
that situation, signed them with an array of pen names. These I)
included Bob Brown, Jack Curtiss, Lance Kirby, Teddy, Ted Grey and
many others. It wasn't so much a matter of concealing one's religion
as of having a name that sounded like a professional cartoonist. lilqlfi\
I ,
Finally, when he began working with Joe Simon, Joe suggested Jack
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pick one name and stick with )t. He picked Jack Kirby. In later years,
he got quite irate 1f someone suggested it was to hide his lineage.
Is it true that when Martin Goodman (owner of Marvel Comics) sold the
company, Kirby and some of the other artists soaked Goodman for big
bucks to sign releases?
False. This story was circulated during Jack's infamous battle with
Marvel Comics over the return of his original artwork. A Marvel editor
was quoted in some sources as spreading it, and claiming Stan Lee had
told him that. Stan told me he absolutely never said or heard of such
a thing, and the editor in question recently claimed to me he'd either
been misquoted or misinformed- I'm not sure which. Whatever, he
no longer believes it, and there is no evidence in Kirby's files of any
such soaking and apparently none in Marvel's, either.
Did Jack ever intend to kill off Thor and do the New Gods at Marvel?
Jack came up with the concept for New Gods while at Marvel but he
never had any intention of doing it there. At the time, he had become
convinced that Marvel was reneging on various promises to him of
financial participation ln characters he'd co-created. He therefore was
not about to give them another idea unless there was a significant
change in the way they did business. That did not happen so, as you
can see, his last few years at Marvel were not as rich with new
characters. Ideas were forever coming to him but he was saving them
to offer DC or any other potential publisher that might emerge .
. Did lack design Spider-Man's costume?
No. Steve Ditko designed the distinctive costume we all know and
love. Jack did claim to have presented the idea to Stan Lee of doing a
hero named Spiderman (no hyphen) who walked on walls and had
other spider~themed powers - a cla!m which Stan vociferously denies.
But for all the things Jack did well, he was not great at being
interviewed. He occasionally got carried away or confused. There was
one interview where, without realizing what he was saying, he said
he'd created Superman. Needless to say, he never really believed that
but somehow, that's what came out of his mouth,
This kind of thing most often occurred when the topic veered near an
instance where Jack felt he'd been undercredited and
undercompensatE:d, and Spider-Man was such a case. In at !east one
such conversation, he misspoke and claimed he'd designed the
costume for the final version of Spider-Man. I'm guessing the gaffe
had something to do with the fact that he did pencil the cover of
Amazing Fantasy #15 with the first appearance of that costume.
There were a number of cases where Jack designed a character on a
cover, and then Don Heck or Dick Ayers or someone else drew the
interior story, following his design. In this case, howE:ver, the cover
was drawn after Stan had rejE:cted one drawn wholly by Ditko
Jack knew that. And he also knew what it was !fke to have someone
else cla1m credit for your ideas. So he very much regretted the error.
What did Jack do on the first stories of Iron Man and Daredevil?
The first Iron Man story was wholly drawn by Don Heck. The first
Daredevil story was drawn mainly by BiH Everett. Steve Ditko and Sol
Brodsky completed tr1e inking, mostly by fi!llng in backgrounds. Kirby
aided Everett in some undetermined manner, though he definitely did
not do full breakdowns as has been erroneously reported about this
story and the first Iron Man.
These falsehoods, l had a hand in spreading back in the early
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seventies. At the time, Jack claimed to have laid out those stories and,
I repeated his claim in print - though not before checking with Heck
who said, in effect, "Oh, yeah. I remember that. Jack did the
layouts,'' We aU later realized he was mistaken. Soon after, I met
Everett and found him to be equally confused. He initially confirmed it
and then, when I told him I didn't think it looked like Kirby layouts, he
said, "Oh, I guess it wasn't."
The confusion in these cases is, I think, understandable. Heck and

Everett both did do work over Jack's layouts ... just not on those
stories. 8oth also believed that Jack had contributed to the plots of
those debut appearances - recollections that do not match those of
Stan Lee. {Larry Ueber did the script for the first Iron Man story from
a p!ot that Stan gave him.)
Also, in both cases, Jack had already drawn the covers of those issues
and done some amount of design work. He came up with the initial
look of Iron Man's armor and he seems to have participated in the
design of Daredevil's first costume. My suspicion, after Interviewing
both Kirby and Everett on the topic and getting only vague
remembrances from each, is that Jack worked up a costume and
Everett modified i t - to what extent, we'll probably never know.
Everett did tell me that Jack had come up with the idea of Daredevil's
billy club.
One of the things you have to keep in mind when researching this kind
of thing, or evaluating conflicting accounts, is that you're often dealing
with people who have or had truly rotten memories. Jack's was
sporadic, at !east when was speaking to the world on a convention
panel or for an interview. He was a lot better in private conversations,
especially with people he trusted. Stan almost brags about how poor
his memory is, and Bill Everett had what we now politely term
"alcohol-retated problems" at the time of Daredevil #1.
Further muddying up the memories on this one is the fact that Jack, in
effect. drew the first page of that first Daredevil story. In the rush to
get that seriously-late book to press, there wasn't time to complete
Page One, so Stan had Sol Brodsky slap together a paste-up that
employed Kirby's cover drawing. You may note Artie Simek's lettering
on that one page, whereas Sam Rosen lettered the rest of the issue,
The biggest question here is what else Jack did on the first Daredevil
story. Everett volunteered to me that Jack had "helped him" though
he wouldn't- or more likely, couldn't- elaborate on that. He just
plain didn't remember it welt and in later years, apparently gave others
who asked a wide range of answers. They ranged from Jack
contributing only encouraging words to working out the entire plot with
him. The latter is what Jack recalled after he'd been corrected about
actually doing the layouts. Stan says that's not so, and he may be
right Or Everett may have sought out Kirby's help without telling
Lee. (Don Heck sometimes did that, as dld Wally Wood.)
So there's another one of those "we may never know" questions,
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Who inked Fantastic Four #1?
© 2007 Mark Evanier
Hosted by Dreamhost
Well, first, let's name some folks who didn't: Bill Everett, Dick Ayers,
Art Simek, Marvin Stein, Sol Brodsky and Jack himself. All have been
wrongly credited over the years. Jack himself once was quoted as
saying it was Simek and he was wrong. Artie Simek was one of the
best letterers in the business and he lettered #l. .. but there is no
record of him ever doing anything in comics besides lettering. And
whoever inked F.F. #1 also inked #2 (which was not lettered by
Simek) as well as a few concurrent non-series stories in Marvel's
anthology comics. It is doubtful Jack ever knew who inked the first
Fantastic Four in 1961, as he paid very little attention to that kind of
thing.
As for who did: Some historian-types argue for Christopher Rule,

whose career dated back to work on newspaper strips of the twenties.
He had mostly drawn for comics like Patsy Walker but occasionally
inked some of Jack's stories for the monster anthology books. I
believe it could be Rule. The inking in F. F. #1 does show some
similarities to the linework in stories he signed for the teen comics and
to Kirby "monster" stories that are believed to have been inked by
him. But the match does not seem to me exact and there's also this:
One would assume that if he even set foot in Stan Lee's offices around
'61, we'd also see his handiwork in the teen comics of that period, as
such stories were his specialty. But though not every one of the teen
comics has been checked, we so far have no verified sightings of his
work- there or in any comics anywhere- after around 1959. He
passed away in 1983.
A more likely candidate in my opinion is George Klein, who worked

intermittently for Marvel, dating back to at least 1942. In 1961, Klein
was freelancing for several houses, doing work that (to me) looks more
like the inking of Fantastic Four #1 than known work by Rule. Klein
began getting steady assignments from DC, primarily inking for the
Superman titles, when Stan Kaye died in late '61 - which is about the
fl
same time the mystery inker disappeared completely from Marvel's
line. At the time, DC paid a lot better than Marvel, and rumors still
abounded that Marvel was on the verge of going outta business. Since
inking Superman was probably the safest job in all of comics, it's easy
to imagine any inker forsaking Marvel and making that jump. Klein
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returned to Marvel in 1968 and had just taken over inking Kirby on
Thor at the time of his death the following year. That inking has only a
few similarities to F. F. #1, but then Klein's last ink work for DC is quite
unlike what he did for them in '61.
Now, let's make matters more complicated: Rule and Klein were close
friends who often worked on each others' assignments ... so it's not
impossible that they both inked the material in question. It's also not
impossible that when we compare the inking in F.F. #1 to "known"
Rule work, we're actually comparing it to work that was actually inked
by Klein in the first place. So we may never know for sure.
[NOTE: The above was written a few years ago. I have since seen
some art examples that convince me- "beyond a reasonable doubt,"
as they say in courtrooms - that the first two issues of Fantastic Four
were inked by George Klein and probably only by George Klein. So
that's my answer now.]
Why was the Fourth World called the Fourth World?
I can give you about eleven answers to this and if you'd asked Jack
eight times, you'd have gotten eight more. Len Wein, who worked at
DC at the time, says that it was a cover blurb intended to only appear
on the covers of the fourth issues. It referred to the fact that every
issue of a Kirby comic was like a world unto itself; ergo, each #4 was a
"Fourth World." Folks then adopted it to refer to the whole epic that
flowed betwixt Jack's books. Meanwhile, Steve Sherman - who
worked with me as Jack's assistant at the time- recalls Jack coming
up with it as a variation on the term, "The Third World," as used in a
socio-economic context. It was Jack's way of transcending that term,
as Jack transcended everything.
That may be true but I don't recall that. Apparently, Jack also told a
few folks that he considered the material his fourth universe in comics.
The Marvel books would have been "Kirby's Third World" and I've never
quite gotten clear what the first two were. There are other answers,
even less credible. Personally, I buy none of them. I don't think there
was any logic behind it, at least when Jack first used it.. I think it was
just a term that popped into his head and he liked the sound of it.
Later on, he came up with several different retro-active explanations.
Didn't Jack have another name for the whole series?
Yeah. The original idea was that the three books would be called
Orion, The Forever People and Mister Miracle, and then the overview
title would be "The New Gods." Somehow, before its release, the Orion
book had its title beefed-up and was being called Orion of the New
Gods. At that point, the series was going to debut in DC's tryout
comic, Showcase. Jack objected to this. He felt that readers would not
commit to an "epic" that was being offered to them on a trial basis ... so
DC cancelled Showcase and a book called New Gods appeared on the
schedule in its place. I'm not sure anyone consciously decided to
change the title. I think it was a case of folks referring to the book by
a shorthand name which caught on around the office. Anyway, Jack
thought the name change was fine.
How were these comics originally released? What order did lack do them
in?
Taking the last question first: You can figure this out very easily, as
almost every story had a little code number on it for its initial
publication and occasionally for a reprint. The number starts with "X"
and they're sequential, denoting the order in which the work went onto
DC's pay records. With only a few very minor exceptions, this is the
same order in which Jack did them. John Morrow's fine magazine, The
Jack Kirby Collector, has tracked down most of the "X" numbers and
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run lists of them. I believe the first things Jack did for DC were the
first issues of Forever People, New Gods and Mister Miracle, in that
order. The books were subsequently released bi-monthly in that same
order, commencing with Forever People #1 the first week of
December, 1970. This was followed three weeks later by New Gods
#1, then three weeks later by Mister Miracle #1 and then, with the
occasional skip week, the cycle began again.
What did you (M.E.) do on the Fourth World comics?
Darn near nothing. Rumors that Steve Sherman and/or I or anyone

else was ghostwriting Jack's dialogue are absolutely untrue. We acted
as sounding boards, occasionally plotted a sequence here and there -
largely busy work that Jack didn't need and mainly for Jimmy Olsen -
and I wrote the page in Mister Miracle #6 on which Big Barda took a
bath. Oh- and Steve and I designed the color scheme for Mister
Miracle's costume. But apart from that and the letter pages, we were
pretty much unnecessary ... a condition I have done my darnedest to
maintain to this day. And this is as good a place as any to suggest to
folks that they not seek out the Kirby-less New Gods stories I did for
DC in the eighties. A lot of things went wrong and I was too dumb to
fix or work around them.
Didn't lack originally plan to turn the Fourth World comics over to others?
Yes. When Jack went to DC, one of the things that most interested
him was the prospect of doing new forms of comics - graphic novels,
upscale magazines, etc. He had little interest in and did not see much
of a future for the conventional 32-page comic. Ergo, he hoped to
launch the Fourth World books and pass them on to others who would
do them under his editorial supervision, while he worked on new
forms. Alas for Jack, DC decided against most of his proposals in that
area; they never got farther than In The Days of the Mob and Spirit
World, which were scaled-back versions of more elaborate Kirby
ideas ... and even those were abandoned before they had any real sales
data. So Jack wound up sticking with the Fourth World comics and
deciding to build them into a personal magnum opus.
Had Jack's original plan come to pass, the Fourth World books would
probably have been written by Steve Sherman and myself, working
from his plots. As for the art, he had in mind to lasso Wally Wood to
draw Orion, Steve Ditko to draw Mister Miracle and Don Heck (or
maybe John Romita) for Forever People. However, those were only
names that were mentioned and there's no reason to believe those
artists would have been the final choices. Jack was also hoping to
spawn a number of spin-off comics from the Fourth World. Almost any
named character had, to him, the potential to be a separate comic. At
one point, for a week or so, it looked like they might be adding Big
Barda and Her Female Furies and Lonar, but neither came to pass.
Did Jack really have a bad memory?
By common definition, yes ... but I think it was more a matter of his
mind wandering in nineteen directions at once. Every so often, he
would surprise me with some (apparently) crystal-clear recollection of
thirty years before. And often, things he said that seemed like
memory lapses would turn out to be more a matter of skipping over
details in the telling. Jack would sometimes tell me a story that didn't
seem to check out ... but, upon reflection or research 1 I would
understand that his story was accurate; he'd merely raced past a few
key portions. He also tended to make odd associations in his mind,
compressing two events into one - a habit that was, I believe, not
unrelated to his instinctual sense of story construction. Stan Lee's
memory is also, by his own admission, poor. It's therefore difficult to
determine which of them was responsible for some of the more absent-
minded errors that cropped up in their collaborations ... like the famous
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Captain America "blooper" ...
What happened to Jack's lawsuit against Marvel?
It is a great urban myth of the business that Jack Kirby sued the
Marvel Comics Group. There were a couple of points where he was
seriously considering it and talking to attorneys, and there were also
other times when he threatened it - to Marvel or in the fan press.
Ultimately though, he and Roz decided that neither his health nor bank
account could withstand what could have been a very long, expensive
and emotional war. Still, one sometimes hears- even from folks who
worked at Marvel and should know better- that Kirby sued and lost,
sued and won or sued and settled. None of these happened. I think
the problem was that Marvel's lawyers always overreacted. They were
constantly trying to strong-arm Kirby into signing this or that, or even
threatening to sue him on some trumped-up claim. Whenever he
threatened them back, they got hysterical and ran around yelling,
"Jack Kirby's suing us," even though, at least on those occasions, Jack
wasn't considering the possibility.
Do you think New Gods would have been more successful if Jack had
stayed at Marvel and done it there?
That's like asking if John Lennon's first solo album would have been
better if he'd stayed with the Beatles and they'd all worked on it with
him. It would have been a completely different work, and it might not
have happened at all. First of all, Jack would not have given his New
Gods concept or any of the zillion characters it entailed to Marvel
unless he received a drastically-different "deal" than what they were
then, in 1970, willing to make with him. What he wanted was not all
that different from what is standard in today's industry, even for
beginners but, at the time, Marvel's execs reacted like he was
demanding their first-born. Had they by some fluke of sanity made a
deal and Jack decided to do New Gods there, then the next question
would have been whether he'd have written it on his own or if Stan or
someone would have handled the scripting. If the latter, I'm quite
sure it would have been a completely different series. It would not
have been the same comics with different dialogue. For that matter, if
anyone else at DC had been involved in the writing, that would also
have yielded entirely different comics.
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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
------------------------------------------------------x
:
MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC., :
MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC. and :
MVL RIGHTS, LLC, :
:
Plaintiffs, :
:
- against- :
:
LISA R. KIRBY, BARBARA J. KIRBY, :
NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN N. KIRBY, :
:
Defendants. :
------------------------------------------------------x Civil Action No. 10 Civ. 141 (CM) (KNF)
:
:
Counterclaimants, :
:
- against- :
:
MARVEL ENTERTAINMENT, INC., :
MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC., :
MVL RIGHTS, LLC, :
THE WALT DISNEY COMPANY, :
and DOES 1 through 10, :
:
Counterclaim-Defendants. :
------------------------------------------------------x
NOTICE OF MOTION TO EXCLUDE THE EXPERT REPORT

AND TESTIMONY OF MARK EVANIER
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that upon the annexed Memorandum of Law and
accompanying Declaration of Sabrina A. Perelman, dated February 18, 2011, and the exhibits
thereto, Plaintiffs and Counterclaim-Defendants Marvel Worldwide, Inc., Marvel Characters,
Inc. and MVL Rights, LLC, Marvel Entertainment, LLC (sued herein as Marvel Entertainment,
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Inc.) and The Walt Disney Company hereby move the Court, before the Honorable Colleen
McMahon, United States District Judge, United States District Court for the Southern District of
New York, at the Daniel Patrick Moynihan United States Courthouse, 500 Pearl Street, New
York, New York for an order excluding the expert report and testimony of Mark Evanier and for
such other and further relief as this Court may deem just and proper.
Dated: February 25, 2011 By: /s/ James W. Quinn
WEIL, GOTSHAL & MANGES LLP

James W. Quinn
R. Bruce Rich
Randi W. Singer
Sabrina A. Perelman
767 Fifth Avenue
New York, NY 10153
Tel: (212) 310-8000
Fax: (212) 310-8007
PAUL, HASTINGS, JANOFSKY & WALKER LLP

Jodi A. Kleinick
75 East 55th Street
New York, NY 10022
Tel: (212) 318-6000
Fax: (212) 230-7691
HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP

David Fleischer
30 Rockefeller Plaza, 26th floor
New York, NY 10112
Tel: (212) 659-7300
Fax: (212) 884-9567
Attorneys for Plaintiffs/Counterclaim-Defendants
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------------------------------------------------------X
MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC.,

MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC. and
MVL RIGHTS, LLC,
Plaintiffs,
- against-
LISA R. KIRBY, BARBARA J. KIRBY,

NEALL. KIRBY and SUSAN N. KIRBY,
Defendants.
------------------------------------------------------X Civil Action No. 10 Civ. 141 (CM) (KNF)

NEALL. KIRBY and SUSAN N. KIRBY,
Counterclaimants,
- against-
MARVEL ENTERTAINMENT, INC.,

MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC.,
MVL RIGHTS, LLC,
THE WALT DISNEY COMPANY,
and DOES 1 through 10,
Counterclaim-Defendants.
------------------------------------------------------X
DECLARATION OF SABRINA A. PERELMAN IN SUPPORT OF

PLAINTIFFS' AND COUNTERCLAIM-DEFENDANTS' MOTION TO EXCLUDE THE
EXPERT REPORT AND TESTIMONY OF MARK EVANIER
I, Sabrina A. Perelman, declare under penalty of perjury as follows:
1. I am an associate at Weil, Gotshal & Manges LLP and am duly admitted to
practice in the State of New York and before this Court. Together with the law firms Paul,
-1
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Hastings, Janofsky & Walker LLP and Haynes and Boone, LLP, I am counsel to Plaintiffs and
Counterclaim-Defendants Marvel Worldwide, Inc., Marvel Characters, Inc., MVL Rights, LLC,
Marvel Entertainment, LLC (sued herein as Marvel Entertainment, Inc.) (collectively as
"Marvel") and The Walt Disney Company in this action.
2. Annexed hereto as Exhibit 1 is a true and correct copy of the Defendants' Initial
Designation of Expert Witness Mark Evanier dated November 4, 2010.
3. Annexed hereto as Exhibit 2 is a true and correct copy of excerpts from the
Deposition of Mark Evanier conducted on December 6, 2010 that are cited in the accompanying
Memorandum of Law in Support of Plaintiffs' and Counterclaim-Defendants' Motion To
Exclude the Expert Report and Testimony of Mark Evanier.
Deposition of Mark Evanier conducted on November 9, 2010 that are cited in the accompanying
Memorandum of Law in Support of Plaintiffs' and Counterclaim-Defendants' Motion To
Exclude the Expert Report and Testimony of Mark Evanier.
5. Annexed hereto as Exhibit 4 is a true and correct copy of excerpts from the trial
proceedings in In re Marvel Entertainment Group, Inc. No. 97-638-RMM (D. Del.), November
16, 1999, that are cited in the accompanying Memorandum of Law in Support Plaintiffs' and
Counterclaim-Defendants' Motion to Exclude the Expert Report and Testimony of Mark
Evanier, and produced by Marvel as part of discovery in this proceeding and identified by the
bates numbers MARVEL0016713-815.
Deposition of Mark Evanier in In re Marvel Entertainment Group, Inc. No. 97-638-RMM (D.
Del.), October 12, 1999, that are cited in the accompanying Memorandum of Law in Support
- 2-
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Plaintiffs' and Counterclaim-Defendants' Motion to Exclude the Expert Report and Testimony
of Mark Evanier, and produced by Marvel as part of discovery in this proceeding and identified
by the bates numbers MARVEL0016627-712.
I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing facts are true and correct. This
declaration was executed on the 18th day of February, 2011 in New York, New York.
-3-
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EXHIBIT 2
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1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
2 CENTRAL DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
3
5 MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC., MARVEL )

6 CHARACTERS, INC., and MVL RIGHTS, )
7 LLC, )
8 )
9 PLAINTIFFS, )
10 )
11 VS. )NO. 10 CV 141 (CM)(KNF)
12 )
13 LISA A. KIRBY, BARBARA J. KIRBY, )
14 NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN N. KIRBY, )
15 )
16 DEFENDANTS. )
17 __________________________________)
18
19 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF MARK EVANIER

20 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
21 DECEMBER 6, 2010
22
23
24 REPORTED BY: CHRISTY A. CANNARIATO, CSR #7954, RPR, CRR

25 JOB NO.: 34168
TSG Reporting - Worldwide 877-702-9580
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1 and Mr. Williamson?
2 A. Maybe an hour.
3 Q. And in preparation for your deposition today,
4 did you review any documents apart from your report
5 itself?
6 A. I reviewed the subpoena of I don't know if --
7 I don't know if it counts for appearance today, but I
8 reviewed the subpoena of materials to be produced.
9 Q. Any other documents?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did you, in preparation for your deposition
12 today, review any deposition transcripts in this case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Now, I know we touched on this briefly in your
15 initial deposition, but could you tell us again how you
16 came to be retained as an expert in this matter?
17 MR. TOBEROFF: Asked and answered.
18 A. Mr. Toberoff asked me to be an expert witness
19 in this matter.
20 Q. And when approximately did that occur?
21 A. I don't remember.
22 Q. Was it -- give me your best estimate. Was it
23 a year ago?
24 A. I don't remember.
25 Q. Do you recall whether it was before or after
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1 and comic book characters published by Marvel between '58
2 and '63 as well as his relationship with Marvel during
3 this key period?
4 A. Yes, I was.
5 Q. Okay. That's the opinion I'm referring to.
6 Got it?
7 A. No, no. Let me -- the opinion is not on that
8 page you're citing. The opinion is throughout the report.
9 Are you asking me to how do I -- how did I arrive at the
10 opinion stated throughout the document that are summarized
11 on this page?
12 Q. Yes.
13 A. All right. Okay.
14 Q. Yeah. Not a trick question.
15 A. No. I'm just trying to answer -- I was trying
16 to figure out why you were calling my attention to that
17 one sentence.
18 Q. Because it summarized your opinion.
19 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection. Mischaracterizes
20 the report. It doesn't summarize his opinion.
21 A. The opinions in this report were formulated by
22 my calling upon years and years of studying Marvel Comics,
23 reading Marvel Comics, interviewing and talking to people
24 who made Marvel Comics, visiting the Marvel offices,
25 discussing Marvel history with other people who have done
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1 similar investigations and interviews, reading articles
2 about Marvel. It's -- the opinions are based on 40 years
3 of -- more than 40 years of following Marvel Comics,
4 probably 50 years.
5 Q. And specifically you referred to reviewing
6 or -- let me go back.
7 Could you tell me with some level of
8 specificity the people interviews -- take it back. Strike
9 the question.
10 In connection with preparing the report
11 itself, did you conduct any interviews in order to prepare
12 the report?
13 A. Did I conduct any interviews specifically for
14 towards this report?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. No, I did not.
17 Q. And specifically with regard to the
18 preparation of the report, did you review any documents or
19 reference works in connection with preparing the report?
20 A. I got some dates out of my own book on Jack,
21 and I think I looked some up on the Internet to just
22 verify my recollection of dates and spellings.
23 Q. So other than checking on some dates and
24 spellings from your book on Jack Kirby and other
25 information available on the Internet, you didn't review
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1 any other documents that are reference materials; correct?
2 A. Let me think. Well, I clipped some of my
3 qualification from a bio of myself which was easier to
4 just paraphrase or transcribe some of that. I think I cut
5 and pasted some of my own credits out of another bio of
6 myself I had on my computer.
7 MR. TOBEROFF: Take your time in answering the
8 question.
9 THE WITNESS: Okay.
10 A. I -- well, I had taken when Mr. Toberoff told
11 me of the assignment here, what he needed from me. I took
12 notes on my computer as he was telling me on the phone,
13 and then that was the file I used.
14 In other words, I had jotted that down, then I
15 basically I expanded my notes on top of that. I opened
16 the file that had -- he had written. He had said -- he
17 told me a couple little facts about the case, and I had
18 took that, and then I took that -- it's not a separate
19 document, it's -- I took that, opened that file on my
20 computer, and then I wrote the expert report in that file
21 using, you know, material that was above and below to --
22 Q. What was the material?
23 A. Well, like he told me about the dates of the
24 some checks that were supplied that were in evidence, and
25 he told me we have these checks from these periods. And
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1 so I had the dates of those checks in that file so I could
2 reference them here.
3 Q. Have you ever seen a check from the period
4 between 1958 and 1963?
5 A. From '58 and '63? No.
6 Q. That would be the part, the period, that you
7 say in your report is the key period; correct?
8 A. That is my understanding of the case is that
9 the main focus is on that period.
10 Q. What were the other facts -- and I use that in
11 quotes -- but what was the other information that Mr.
12 Toberoff supplied to you in connection with the
13 preparation of your report?
14 A. He didn't supply much of anything. I took --
15 while he was telling me what he needed, I made some notes
16 to myself of things that I wanted to cover that I thought
17 I should cover that occurred to me while I was talking to
18 him. I wrote "original art" and a couple other key words.
19 He didn't supply -- let me think if I can --
20 what else he supplied me, if there's anything else.
21 Well, I wrote -- as reference, I looked at the
22 expert report that I had filed in the Superman matter just
23 for the form to cover the format of an expert report, and
24 the headings such as the compensation in prior cases and
25 publications.
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1 Q. I'm not focused on, you know, the form. I'm
2 asking whether in addition to what you've already
3 testified about can you think of any other documents or
4 reference materials that you utilized in the preparation
5 of your report?
6 A. I don't believe so. No.
7 Q. And you mentioned something about some visits
8 to Marvel offices. Did you visit the Marvel offices in
9 connection with your preparation of your report?
10 A. No.
11 Q. When did you make visits to the Marvel
12 offices?
13 A. Oh, the first time was around the July 4th
14 weekend of 1970. And then I probably visited the office
15 every two or three years after that.
16 Q. And in the course of those visits, did you
17 interview people in connection with what they did at
18 Marvel?
19 A. Yes, I did.
20 Q. Who?
21 A. That's a very long list. I talked to -- by
22 interview, are you meaning informal conversations or
23 formal conversations?
24 Q. Either way. Did you speak to Mr. Lee, for
25 example?
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1 A. Many times. Yes.
2 Q. Mr. Romita?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And Roy Thomas?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Any others?
7 A. Probably 50 to 100 others.
8 Q. When was the last time you visited the Marvel
9 offices?
10 A. About five years ago.
11 Q. In connection with any of your visits, did you
12 make any notes or obtain any documents relating to your
13 visits?
14 A. I made some notes occasionally after to remind
15 myself -- not notes at the time. I made some notes
16 afterwards to jot down things that I was wanting to
17 remember.
18 By visits to Marvel offices, are you including
19 things like going out to lunch with people? I probably
20 talked to these people more at lunch across the street or
21 down the street than actually at the office.
22 Q. This is over a long period of time; is that
23 right?
24 A. Since 1970.
25 Q. Now, I think you mentioned having discussions
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1 Colan, John Buscema, Saul Buscema, Marie Severin. Did I
2 say Roy Thomas? Gary Friedrick, Alan Brodsky, Sol
3 Brodsky, Janice Cohen, John Verpooten, Tony Mortellaro,
4 Herb Trimpee, Chick Stone, Joe Sinott, Frank Giacoia, Mike
5 Esposito, Barry Smith.
6 These are just people who did work for Marvel
7 or did freelance work for Marvel. I have talked to people
8 at other companies about Marvel history.
9 Getting back to people at Marvel, Len Wein,
10 Marv Wolfman, Steve Englehart, Steve Gerber, Gerry Conway,
11 Dan Adkins, Vince Colletta, Syd Shores.
12 I apologize. You're going to have to look up
13 a lot of these on the Internet to find the spellings.
14 George Tuska, Johnny Craig, Archie Goodwin.
15 Did I say Jim Shooter? Tom DeFalco, Mark Gruenwald, Carol
16 Kalish, Peter David.
17 Q. That's fine.
18 A. I've got about another 300 if you want to take
19 the time.
20 Q. No, we can move on.
21 But I'm correct that in connection with the
22 actual preparation of your report, you didn't actually
23 discuss -- have the interviews with those people; correct?
24 A. No. And quite a few of those people are
25 deceased.
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1 I think Marie Severin did some freelance work
2 for them during this period, maybe a little later than
3 '63.
4 There's probably another name or two --
5 Q. Okay. That's fine.
6 A. -- I can't think of at the moment.
7 Q. That's fine.
8 Now, when you were first retained by Mr.
9 Toberoff, what did he say to you about specifically about
10 the opinions that he wanted you to render?
11 MR. TOBEROFF: Lacks foundation. Assumes
12 facts.
13 A. Well, I think the issue of me doing an expert
14 report was first mentioned by The New York Times before
15 Mr. Toberoff approached me. I declined to be interviewed
16 by The Times, and in an article they said Evanier would
17 not -- some form of Evanier didn't speak to us because
18 he'll probably be a witness in this case or an expert.
19 And I believe Mr. Toberoff said something like, Well, I
20 guess The New York Times was ahead of us.
21 Then he asked me to prepare an expert report,
22 and he said that he wanted me to cover -- he wanted me to
23 address the relationship -- the working relationship that
24 Jack had with Marvel, how he worked for them, what his
25 relationship to the company was.
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1 Q. Well, did you go to any reference work or
2 textbook or publication of any kind to check to see
3 whether or not the conclusions you reached were, in fact,
4 reliable?
5 A. I don't know of any reference book or source
6 like you're describing that would do that. I derived a
7 lot of my knowledge about Marvel from books, as I
8 mentioned. There is very little written and published
9 about a lot of this material. A lot of what has been
10 published about it was written by me.
11 So if the question is, did I check my opinions
12 against published works by others, I don't think there are
13 any published works by others that would cover this
14 material.
15 Q. Okay. And my question -- and that's close,
16 but my question is: Is there any way that you can think
17 of to test the reliability of the opinions that you
18 reached or what you say is your understanding of what
19 occurred back in '58 through '63? Any way to test that?
20 A. Let me think for a minute.
21 I don't know of any way to test this kind of
22 thing.
23 Q. Take a look at your report. And I want to
24 point you to certain things that you wrote.
25 Let's look at page 5, for example. Starting
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1 people there, printers there to pay.
2 And the companies were frequently pleading
3 poverty, lowering rates. It was a very -- it was a
4 business that very few people bet would be there in the
5 future.
6 It's amazing that it's still there. Even when
7 I got into comic books into the early 70s, there were
8 people, prominent people, in the industry predicting the
9 industry had less than five years to live and predicting
10 demise. And then you still had -- would have frequent
11 cases where you came in one day and they'd canceled half
12 the line or laid off half the staff. And there were
13 problems meeting payroll sometimes, problems paying
14 people.
15 So when I say "fly-by-night," that's kind of a
16 way of saying the industry was not very well grounded
17 in --
18 Q. How did you come to find out all these facts?
20 A. All right. Well, since about 1966 or -67,
21 I've been talking to people who did comics. I was
22 fascinated by comic books. And I have interviewed just
23 about everybody I could meet who ever worked in comic
24 books, including, you know, people who ran xerox machines
25 or photostat cameras.
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1 And whatever was written about comics, which
2 for a long time was not much, I bought, I read. I read
3 all the comic books. I still have one of the largest
4 collections around.
5 And I have been going to comic book
6 conventions since 1970. There's this annual convention in
7 San Diego that's now -- they've had 41 of them. I've been
8 to all 41 of them. And at most of them I've conducted
9 panels and seminars and interviewed people extensively.
10 Because there has not been as much written
11 about comics as there probably should be, the history has
12 been mostly oral. And I've been fortunate to have
13 interviewed a lot of people who worked in comic books in
14 the early days, frequently the only interview they ever
15 gave.
16 The convention has been very nice. If I tell
17 them they've located an oldtimer who worked in comic books
18 in the 40s who hasn't been around the industry for a
19 while, he's never been to a convention, they'll send him a
20 first class ticket and fly him to San Diego to be there.
21 And I'm usually the person who interviews that person. I
22 can give you examples of that, if you want.
23 But at the convention, most of the panels that
24 are about comic book history are conducted by me. And so
25 it's been kind of since the late 60s it's been kind of an
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1 interest of mine. And even before I thought I might work
2 in the comic book field, I was fascinated by it.
3 And just, you know, when I was in high school,
4 I found out that one of the kids in my chemistry class had
5 a father who had worked in comics. And I asked him, Could
6 I meet your father? And he didn't understand why I wanted
7 to, and his father didn't understand. But I went over one
8 day and spent the afternoon talking to his father about
9 working for publishers in the 1950s. His father had not
10 drawn a comic book since, well, in at least 10 years. I
11 just wanted to know what the business was like, how he was
12 treated, how he did what he did, how the work was
13 produced.
14 I don't know if I'm answering your question.
15 Q. Yeah. That's fine. Okay.
16 You mentioned at the top of page 5 in that
17 connection that: Comic book publishers did not see any
18 value in the product, in their product, beyond monthly
19 sales figures.
20 What's the basis for that statement?
21 A. Early on, this is something that was told to
22 me by the artists and the editors and people I talked to.
23 Jack Kirby talked to me greatly about that. Jack was in
24 comics almost from the beginning. And he was by no means
25 the only one who told me this, but he used to say that
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1 these guys had no imagination; that the publishers all
2 they thought about was this month's sales and that they
3 didn't realize that they were -- that they had the
4 underpinnings of a media conglomerate. Didn't use the
5 term at that time, obviously.
6 But these characters that they were doing
7 could be exploited in other fields. You know, he would
8 point to, in fact, Walt Disney was not interested in just
9 making Mickey Mouse cartoons. Walt Disney was interested
10 in expanding Mickey Mouse into all different fields and
11 doing toys and games and comic books and comic strips and
12 eventually a theme park. Whereas someone like Martin
13 Goodman at Marvel, who he cited frequently, was he thought
14 was a man of limited vision, limited imagination.
15 And he told stories about how he would go to
16 Martin Goodman and tell him what Marvel could be, how it
17 could expand. This is even before it was called Marvel.
18 And he got back very little response. It was just -- he
19 did not -- he always thought that Martin Goodman grossly
20 undervalued Marvel when he sold it in the late 60s.
21 Q. Now, your testimony is or your opinion is that
22 publishers didn't see any value in the product beyond
23 monthly sales figures, but you previously testified, I
24 believe, and written that during this period of time the
25 publishers also would not negotiate with artists with
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1 A. No.
2 Q. You never heard that before?
3 A. I never heard that he fired them because they
4 were working for other publications. No.
5 Q. What --
6 A. No, I did not.
7 Q. Did you ever hear that they were working for
8 other publications?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. At the same time they were working for Marvel?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Go back to page 5 for a moment. The top
13 paragraph. First full paragraph. You write, "There was
14 no expectation that it would ever be reprinted and little
15 that the characters would be merchandised or exploited in
16 other media."
17 What was the basis for that conclusion?
18 A. The way it was described to me by people who
19 were working there in the comics at the time.
20 Q. In fact, a number of publishers did reprint
21 their books, did they not, back in this period of time?
22 A. What period are we talking about?
23 Q. We're talking about up through the 50s and
24 60s.
25 A. There was very little reprinting done of
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1 There was a lot of romance material for Crestwood. There
2 was a book called Young Romance. There was a book called
3 Strange Worlds of your Dreams. There was also a book
4 called Young Love. There was a book called Young Brides.
5 Do you want more than that?
6 Q. No, that's fine.
7 With regard to going back to this issue of
8 reprints and merchandising and so forth. Am I correct
9 that, in fact, there were merchandise that was sold with
10 regard to Captain America back in the 40s and 50s?
11 A. In the 40s, very little.
12 Q. There was some?
13 A. There was a Captain America fan club that they
14 advertised in the comics and sold. You could get -- you
15 could join the Captain America Sentinels of Liberty, and
16 you could get a pin and a badge and a certificate for a
17 dime.
18 Q. What about Superman? There was -- Superman
19 was merchandised back in the 40s and 50s, wasn't it?
20 A. Superman was merchandised. Yes.
21 Q. Now, in connection with the opinions in your
22 report, is one of the bases for reaching those opinions or
23 reaching the understandings that you had -- the personal
24 interactions you had with Mr. Kirby?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And with the Kirby family, Mrs. Kirby?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, did it -- you've testified previously
4 that, I think in the prior deposition but also in other
5 places, that Kirby often had some poor memory about things
6 that had occurred in the past as to things that were
7 created or not created.
8 MR. TOBEROFF: Misstates prior testimony.
9 A. I don't think you're characterizing my
10 testimony correctly.
11 Q. Okay. What was it that -- what was your
12 understanding of -- strike that.
13 It's a fact, is it not, that from time to time
14 Jack Kirby would make statements with regard to the
15 creation of characters that turned out to be incorrect;
16 isn't that right?
17 A. No. Once in a while there was -- there were a
18 couple occasional incidents, and he corrected himself when
19 he realized his mistake.
20 Q. Okay. The record will speak for itself.
21 Did it ever occur to you, based on your
22 interactions with Kirby and Roz, that his version of what
23 had occurred back in 1958 through 1963 may have been
24 incorrect?
25 A. It occurred to me that it might have been, and
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1 versions Mr. Kirby has given. Let me say that again. Mr.
2 Kirby's version was always consistent. Mr. Lee's version
3 has changed from time to time, and Mr. Kirby's version is
4 in conflict with some of the accounts Mr. Lee has given.
5 Q. And you chose to find Mr. Kirby's version more
6 credible than Mr. Lee's; is that correct?
7 A. I chose to find -- I chose to believe the
8 version which I heard from both of them which coincided
9 and to discount any versions which only served one
10 person's purposes.
11 MR. QUINN: Let me have that answer back,
12 please.
13 (The record was read.)
14 Q. So you chose to disbelieve certain parts of
15 Mr. Lee's version or testimony in favor of Mr. Kirby's
16 version; correct?
17 MR. TOBEROFF: Misstates --
18 A. No. No.
19 MR. TOBEROFF: Misstates the record. He said
20 he had never read Lee's testimony.
21 A. First of all, I'm not talking about testimony.
22 I'm talking about versions that -- I'm talking about
23 sitting across from Stan at lunch and hearing him tell me
24 things and talking to him informally and talking to him
25 one on one. I have also read interviews of him.
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1 Mr. Lee's versions occasionally differ from
2 one another. You can't believe all of them because
3 occasionally they're mutually exclusive.
4 When Mr. Lee's version and Mr. Kirby's version
5 matched up, and they matched the printed comics, and they
6 kind of coincide with what people around them told me,
7 then that is the version that I take to be the most
8 credible.
9 Q. And when they don't match up, you chose Mr.
10 Kirby over Mr. Lee; isn't that true?
11 MR. TOBEROFF: Misstates testimony.
12 A. That's -- yeah, that's misstating testimony
13 like the man says.
14 Q. I'm not asking for the testimony.
15 A. No. No. What I'm saying is that in cases
16 where I have heard multiple versions, or things which
17 sometimes which just don't match the printed comics that I
18 can hold in my hand, I choose to -- I make a value
19 judgment for myself, as anybody doing journalism would do,
20 and I believe the version that seems to be the most
21 consistent throughout more people's versions.
22 Q. Now, in reaching the opinions that you reached
23 in connection -- in connection with your report, is it
24 your testimony that you did not read the sworn testimony
25 of Stan Lee in this case?
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1 A. I glanced at it. I did not read it in full.
2 Q. And is it also your testimony that you did not
3 read the sworn testimony of John Romita in this case?
4 A. I did not see Romita's testimony.
5 Q. And is it your testimony that you did not read
6 the sworn testimony of Roy Thomas in this case?
7 A. I did not read Mr. Thomas's testimony.
8 Q. And so you mentioned as a journalist that you
9 would want to get the fullest information possible to
10 reach certain conclusions. Wouldn't it have been useful
11 for you to have read the actual sworn testimony of people
12 who were at Marvel at part of or all of the period from
13 1958 through 1963?
14 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection. You're referring to
15 depositions that occurred after this report.
16 A. That's what I was going to say. Are you
17 asking me did I read the testimony -- are you asking me
18 did I read their testimony before I prepared my report?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. The testimony didn't exist when I prepared my
21 report.
22 Q. Mr. Lee testified --
23 MR. TOBEROFF: Some did; some didn't.
24 Q. -- in May of 2010. Your testimony -- your
25 report is dated in November of 2010. So by my
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1 recollection, that's -- it did exist for about six months.
2 A. I had not -- I was not aware of it.
3 Q. So I have it right. Mr. Toberoff did not make
4 you aware of Mr. Lee's testimony before you issued your
5 report. Is that your testimony?
6 A. I did not have a copy of Mr. Lee's testimony
7 before I issued my report.
8 Q. Did you ask for a copy of it before you issued
9 your report?
11 Q. Were you aware there was such a deposition?
12 A. I was not necessarily aware that it had taken
13 place yet.
14 Q. So Mr. Toberoff did not inform you that Mr.
15 Lee had been deposed in this lawsuit under oath prior to
16 your issuing the report; is that correct? Do I have that
17 right?
18 A. Let me think. I don't remember that. I don't
19 remember.
20 Q. It's fair to say, is it not, that essentially
21 the methodology you used in coming to the opinions that
22 you did in your report is that you took versions from
23 Kirby, versions from Lee, and you decided which ones you
24 thought were the most credible; isn't that right?
25 A. No.
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2 A. No. No, that's not what I said at all. I
3 said, first of all, I said I looked at the printed comics.
4 I looked at whatever materials existed. I talked to other
5 people who were around at the time who had histories of
6 working with Stan Lee and with Jack. I talked extensively
7 with Sol Brodsky, who was Stan's right-hand man during
8 this period. I talked to other -- I talked to Steve
9 Ditko, who was working for Marvel during this period.
10 MR. TOBEROFF: You can keep answering.
11 A. Yeah. All right. I'm sorry. Then I lost my
12 train of thought here.
13 It is not merely a matter of me weighing
14 Stan's accounts against Jack's.
15 Q. In reaching the conclusions that you reached
16 in your report, which was submitted to us in early
17 November, I'm correct that you did not read the testimony
18 of Stan Lee, John Romita, and Roy Thomas who testified in
19 this case; correct?
20 A. That is correct.
21 Q. Even though all of those depositions took
22 place before you issued your report?
23 A. I don't know that that's true.
24 Q. I will so represent to you that it's true.
25 A. I did not read those depositions.
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1 A. Jack's original pages of Spider-Man were not
2 used. Then Steve Ditko did it. However, Jack maintained
3 that he created Spider-Man.
4 Q. And so this would be a circumstance, for
5 example, where -- maybe I've got this wrong.
6 But put aside what he maintained. What did
7 you conclude as to the creation of Spider-Man? Did you
8 find Mr. Kirby's version more credible than Mr. Lee's,
9 which is in clear conflict?
10 A. I don't find them completely in conflict. I
11 find certain areas that overlap. And in this particular
12 -- this is -- you're kind of asking me for what could be a
13 very long answer here, if you want to go through the whole
14 thing.
15 Q. I don't know. That's a good question.
16 A. Because I've spent hours discussing this with
17 people. My version that I reported on, written about, of
18 the creation of Spider-Man allows for certain he said/he
19 said variations. There are, however, certain parallels in
20 the stories and the accounts that I find indisputable.
21 Q. So you're taking an amalgam of different facts
22 and versions and choosing to try to make them consistent
23 in such a way that you reach a conclusion?
24 A. Well, when I report on this, I try to separate
25 what is conjecture from what is, I believe, indisputable.
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1 And I leave it -- well, when I have written about this, I
2 generally leave it to the reader to make certain decisions
3 about the process.
4 I think that there are things you can say
5 about it that are obvious. I think there are things you
6 can say that are simply common sense, because I don't
7 think that either Stan's or Jack's accounts exactly match
8 the physical evidence of the printed comic that resulted.
9 But I think it is possible to come to a
10 scenario of how Spider-Man came to be that allows for the
11 fact that at various stages there's the Stan Lee version,
12 and the Jack Kirby version, and they could in some cases
13 both be true based on interpretation of certain words,
14 certain verbs.
15 It's something when I have written about it
16 I'm very careful to try and not take -- not to say either
17 Stan's version was completely correct or Jack's version
18 was completely correct, because I don't think either one
19 of those tells the entire story. But they are not -- it
20 is wrong to say that they are in complete conflict.
21 Q. Some areas we can agree on. I think we did
22 agree on one, which was that Stan, in fact, didn't use the
23 original drawings by Jack with regard to Spider-Man;
24 correct?
25 A. That is correct.
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1 A. All right. Where did I say that word?
2 Q. We'll come back to it.
3 A. Depending on the context, that might be the
4 correct word.
5 MR. TOBEROFF: Misstates his testimony.
6 Q. I think you testified previously in the prior
7 deposition, but I want to ask you a follow up in this
8 context.
9 You have written extensively about Jack Kirby
10 and his contributions to the comic book industry; correct?
11 A. Yes, I have.
12 Q. And you also have given lectures and spoken
13 extensively on that subject?
14 A. I have.
15 Q. And could you estimate for me or for us how
16 much you've been paid or how many royalties you've
17 received in connection with the books you've published on
18 Jack Kirby, the articles that you've written on Jack
19 Kirby, the presentations you've made on Jack Kirby going
20 back over the last 20 or 30 years?
21 A. Well, lectures I think I have never been paid
22 for a lecture about Jack. I have been paid for lectures
23 where Jack was mentioned, but he was not the primary
24 subject of the lecture.
25 Articles? I have written the Forwards for --
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1 I'm going to give you an estimate. This is not a finite
2 number. I have written the Forwards for approximately 20
3 to 25 reprint collections of Jack's work. And I usually
4 get somewhere between $250 or $500 for each one, which is
5 a standard fee for Introductions of these kind of things.
6 Q. Mm-hmm.
7 A. I have written one book about Jack. I really
8 don't remember how much I've been paid on that, but I
9 believe we're furnishing that material to you, if I can
10 dig out the records of what I've been paid on that.
11 What else is there?
12 Q. Do you have an estimate as to how much that
13 would be?
14 A. Well, for the Forwards maybe --
15 MR. TOBEROFF: I think he's referring to the
16 book.
17 A. The book? I don't have --
18 Q. I was referring to the book.
19 A. I don't have an estimate for it. They're way
20 behind in paying me, so I don't know.
21 Q. You refer yourself in the report at one point
22 as a comic book historian. Is there anybody else in the
23 industry that you consider to be a comic book historian?
24 A. Yes. You know, to varying degrees there are
25 lots of people who write about comic books. Roy Thomas
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1 MR. TOBEROFF: Compound.
2 A. Well, Mr. Kirby believed -- said that he took
3 some of the ideas that became the Marvel heroes in. He
4 brought them in, did sketches first, took them in and
5 showed them to Stan.
6 So to the extent that that answers your
7 question, that answers your question.
8 Q. Well, I'm asking for your understanding as to,
9 first of all, what did Mr. Kirby tell you about that,
10 which characters, when did he do that, and whether or not
11 this was one of the versions you chose to believe.
12 A. Okay. Mr. Kirby told me that he brought in
13 sketches for knew characters, including rough sketches of
14 The Fantastic Four that he did on his own. Brought them
15 in.
16 His version of the creation of Fantastic Four
17 was that when Mr. Goodman asked for a superhero book to
18 parallel DC Comics' Justice League of America, Stan's
19 initial idea was to revive the characters from the 1940s
20 The Human Torch, The Submariner, Captain America, and
21 certain others.
22 And Mr. Kirby then went out and said, no, we
23 need new characters. And he came up with some sketches.
24 And he took them in, and The Fantastic Four was born out
25 of those discussions.
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1 Brodsky, who was the right-hand man who was present for a
2 lot of this, he more or less endorsed the Kirby version to
3 me.
4 Q. Sol Brodsky is dead; right?
5 A. Yes, he is. But I haven't published this.
6 This is an area where when I write about this, I say that,
7 and I think I say in my book, in effect, Jack and Stan got
8 together and came up with the characters. I don't remove
9 from that period, which as you keep reminding me I was not
10 present for --
11 Q. I haven't reminded you the whole day.
12 A. I think you did someplace in there, but
13 anyway.
14 You know, there's a limit to how much we can
15 know about what two men did behind closed doors years ago.
16 There's also a limit to how much each of them could even
17 remember about that at the time.
18 And I was sometimes when I have written about
19 this I also from my own experience talk about the fact
20 that collaborators can honestly disagree five minutes
21 after a meeting of whose idea was which because one person
22 threw out an idea and another person expanded on it and
23 such.
24 So I have not uncovered anything which would
25 convince me that Jack didn't bring in some sketches. And
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1 I don't know how much those sketches resembled the
2 finished product. But Jack said he brought in ideas. I
3 know that Jack was a fountain of ideas; that he had a
4 lifetime history of batting out ideas for new characters
5 and sketches. And every single human being who ever
6 worked with Jack will tell you that, including Stan Lee.
7 So I choose to believe that because of Jack's
8 modus operandi, and the way he always worked, that he
9 brought in something, and Stan brought in something, and
10 collectively The Fantastic Four emerged from those
11 discussions. And I specifically avoid trying to say that
12 I know exactly what happened behind those closed doors,
13 because it was apparent to me that there was some level of
14 collaboration there.
15 I find in my own experience, and in my own
16 observation, and talking to the people who knew Jack well,
17 Jack was a creating character machine. He was also
18 creating characters. He created characters when he was
19 asked to. He created characters when he wasn't asked to.
20 He was a very fertile person. And Stan has said that many
21 times.
22 Q. Do you know -- I'm sorry. Please finish.
23 A. So I hope I'm answering your question. But
24 the mere fact that somebody says, you know, that a
25 publisher says I would really like to do a western, and
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1 I would want to know if, you know, The New
2 York Times gave him the typewriter he was working on.
3 Q. Anything else?
4 A. I think those right there are --
5 Q. Well, let's assume they're going to pay him
6 for the article whether or not they publish it.
7 MR. TOBEROFF: Again I object. He's not a
8 lawyer, asking for a legal conclusion as to whether
9 something is work for hire under the 1909 Copyright Act
10 that even lawyers have trouble answering. It's outside
11 the scope of his expert opinion.
12 A. I think this question is too vague to answer
13 even as it is.
14 MR. QUINN: This is probably a good place to
15 break for lunch.
16 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Off the record. The time
17 is 1:10 p.m.
18 (Recess.)
19 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record. The
20 time is 2:20 p.m.
21 Q. BY MR. QUINN: Good afternoon, Mr. Evanier.
22 A. Good afternoon, sir.
23 Q. You had mentioned previously in connection
24 with one of the answers you had given regarding
25 conclusions you had reached relating to Jack Kirby's
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1 relationship with Marvel back in the '58 to '63 period
2 that you'd had discussions with, among other people, Sol
3 Brodsky. Remember that?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Could you tell me when you had those
6 discussions?
7 A. 1975 and 1976. Met mr. Brodsky before that.
8 We had an extended conversation in '75 and another one in
9 '76.
10 Q. And do you recall -- how long ago, by the
11 way, did Mr. Brodsky pass away?
12 A. Oh, early 80s. '83, '84, I think.
13 Q. You mentioned you had a conversation with him
14 in '75 and '76. What do you recall him telling you at
15 that time about the Kirby/Lee relationship in the '58 to
16 '63 period?
17 A. Well, mostly I told Sol the way I understand
18 the situation, and he agreed or amplified or corrected me.
19 I was mostly using him as, you know, Jack told me this,
20 Stan told me this, what do you think?
21 Q. Do you recall the specifics of the
22 conversation you had with Mr. Brodsky about what you were
23 saying your understanding was and what his responses were
24 as to what Jack told you or what Stan told you?
25 A. He endorsed pretty much most of what Jack told
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1 me but with some corrections and different memories. Do
2 you have a specific topic?
3 Q. Well --
4 A. We talked for hours.
5 Q. What is it that Jack told you that you say Mr.
6 Brodsky endorsed?
7 A. Well, I asked him in the early days was it
8 true that Jack would come up with the plots for things,
9 and Jack would go home often with know -- with very little
10 input from Stan. Or that sometimes it would be done over
11 the phone, and Stan would say, "I don't have time to talk
12 about the next issue with you, so just do something," and
13 Jack would go ahead and draw an issue.
14 I remember one thing he told me was that --
15 and this is not a quote; this is a paraphrase by me --
16 that repeatedly there was a situation where Jack would
17 come into the office, and he and Stan would talk about the
18 next issue of Fantastic Four, the issue of Fantastic Four
19 that Jack was going to go home and start working on.
20 And on the way out, Jack -- and Stan would say
21 to Jack: Oh, then after that we're going to do a Thor
22 story, you know, next month. Got any ideas for that?
23 And Jack would say -- this is me making
24 something up here -- Jack would say something like: Oh,
25 yeah, I got an idea for a story with Loki in it. And then
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1 Jack would go home and draw the Thor story that wasn't
2 needed next instead of The Fantastic Four story that was.
3 He would get confused as to which story he was supposed to
4 do in what order.
5 So he would do this whole issue of Thor and
6 bring it in, and Stan would say: Well, where's the issue
7 of Fantastic Four we were doing?
8 And he'd say: Oh, I thought we were doing
9 Thor first. He would get confused as to which book he was
10 to do in which order.
11 Q. Is that because there were deadlines that he
12 had to meet?
13 A. They were pretty much ahead of deadlines.
14 It's just that one book may be way farther ahead than
15 another. Stan would pick out which -- let's do a Thor
16 next. Based on sometimes the deadlines had less to do
17 when the material was needed for publication than when the
18 artist would be inking the story would be needing work.
19 In other words, if the inker of Fantastic Four was not
20 busy, they might do a Fantastic Four issue next so they
21 could feed work to that inker.
22 Most of the stories they did were way ahead of
23 publication deadline because Jack and Stan were both very
24 prolific, both very fast and producing an awful lot of
25 work. Jack occasionally would do an issue, you know, in a
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1 Q. You state in the paragraph that starts
2 "Goodman meanwhile" about a few lines down. "But until
3 the debut of Fantastic Four in 1961, few comics seemed to
4 be permanent fixtures."
5 What's the basis for that statement?
6 A. Looking at the history of publishing at
7 Marvel, they tended to cancel books very fast. The ones
8 that -- the ones that kept going for quite some time were
9 flukes.
10 And, you know, I have talked to an awful lot
11 of people about Martin Goodman, and there is a unanimity
12 of opinion about him from people who worked in that time
13 period. And Stan Lee has said this on many occasions, and
14 Sol Brodsky said it, and Jack said it. It's a consistent
15 portrait of a man who was always trigger happy, ready to
16 cancel a comic when he got one bad sales report. Sales
17 were down, he would cancel a book.
18 Sol Brodsky told me that frequently, very
19 often, in fact, what would happen would be that they would
20 get the sales figures in on, let's say, you know, Issue 22
21 of a comic. And Martin would go, oh-oh, it's down. Let's
22 cancel it. Then someone would tell him, well, we've got
23 Issues 22, 23. We've got the next three issues sitting on
24 the shelf. And he would decide, well, it would be cheaper
25 to publish them than to write that material off. So
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1 they'd publish those issues. And by the time they could
2 cancel the book and not have inventory left over, they
3 would get some encouraging sales figures, so he would
4 uncancel the book.
5 And so very few comics at Marvel were ever
6 done with the expectation, well, this comic will be done a
7 year from now or two years from now, which was different
8 from quite a few of the other publishers. Most of the
9 major publishers had a few titles that were solidly
10 ensconced. And DC Comics was never worried they would
11 have to cancel Superman soon. Dell Comics was never
12 worried they would have to cancel Donald Duck soon.
13 But Martin ran his company with the idea that,
14 well, we may have to cancel all war comics and replace
15 them with Westerns, or replace all our love comics and
16 replace them with comic books about funny rabbits or
17 something.
18 Q. You're familiar with Marvel's horror titles?
19 A. The ones in the 50s?
20 Q. Yes.
21 A. Yes, I am.
22 Q. Amazing Fantasy and Journey into Mystery?
23 A. Amazing Fantasy was in the late 50s, early
24 60s. Yes.
25 Q. Those, that group of titles, in fact, did last
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1 most of these stories.
2 A. I am not familiar with that deposition. I
3 have seen him claim that on some occasions.
4 Q. Okay. On page 10 of your expert report at the
5 top of the page you say.
6 (Reading:) As Stan Lee himself noted on many
7 occasions, "plotting" with Kirby could often be
8 accomplished in a matter of minutes and in later
9 years might be done via brief phone call with
10 Jack telling Stan what the next issue would be
11 about.
12 Now, what is the basis for that statement?
13 A. I listened in on one of Jack and Stan's
14 plotting -- on Jack's end of a phone call the first day I
15 ever met Jack.
16 Q. And how did that go? What do you recall about
17 listening in to a plotting phone call between Jack and
18 Stan Lee?
19 A. Three friends of mine and I visited Jack.
20 This was in July of 1969. I think it was the second week
21 of the month.
22 Q. I think you testified about that previously.
23 A. While we were there, I was talking to Jack in
24 this little den he had in his house in Irvine. Roz came
25 in and said, "Stan Lee is on the phone."
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1 And Jack said, "Tell him I will call him
2 back."
3 And Roz said, "It's 5:30 in New York,"
4 whatever the time was. "He's got to leave for the day.
5 He needs to talk to you."
6 And Jack said -- apologized to us, and he took
7 the call in front of us. And Jack just told -- just had
8 on his drawing board at the time he had Fantastic Four No.
9 98, which he had just completed and was about to send in.
10 And he already had -- he knew what he was
11 doing on -- he was going to draw an issue of Thor next.
12 And he knew what he was going to do for that. And Stan
13 was calling to find out when The Fantastic Four issue
14 would be in and to discuss what Jack would do for the next
15 issue because Stan needed to write some advertising copy
16 that would say what the issue was about.
17 And Jack told him what he had in mind for the
18 story. And Stan said, Great. And I did not hear Stan's
19 end of the conversation.
20 Q. I was going to ask you that. It wasn't on a
21 speaker phone, was it?
22 A. No, no, but --
23 Q. Didn't have speaker phones back then.
24 A. But the whole conversation was probably less
25 than four minutes, so it was a brief phone call. And I
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1 heard Jack tell Stan what the next issue would be about,
2 which is what I wrote here.
3 Q. And that's the basis for the statement?
4 A. That's exactly the basis of the statement.
5 And on top of that --
6 Q. So other than the one --
7 A. No, no. Let me finish my sentence, please.
8 On top of that, Stan said things like that all
9 the time. Stan told me on many occasions that, especially
10 on the later issues, Jack was controlling the story lines.
11 I think there's a quote elsewhere in my book here where I
12 quote Stan as saying, "Sometimes Jack will tell me what
13 the next issue is about." That's from an interview that
14 Stan gave in Castle of Frankenstein magazine about this
15 time.
16 So that's the basis for that. I mean, this is
17 a very consistent portrait here, and I see no evidence to
18 the contrary anywhere.
19 Q. You are aware, are you not, that at least with
20 regard to some of the characters there were actual scripts
21 and outlines that were prepared?
22 MR. TOBEROFF: Vague.
23 A. I don't know what you mean by that.
24 Q. Well, we've seen before the outline for
25 Fantastic Four we looked at it in the last deposition.
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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And you are aware, aren't you, that, for
3 example, Mr. Lieber, Larry Lieber, has said on many
4 occasions that he wrote full scripts for the comics that
5 he was doing. You're aware of that?
6 A. Yes, he has said that.
7 Q. And that, in fact, includes a number of the
8 comics that Jack was doing the artwork for; correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. By the way, do you have any basis for
11 disagreeing with Mr. Lieber's statements that he would
12 write the scripts before the panels would be drawn?
13 MR. TOBEROFF: Vague as to what we're talking
14 about exactly.
15 Q. With regard to those comics that Mr. Lieber
16 wrote the scripts for, do you have any basis for
17 disagreeing that he wrote those scripts before the panels
18 were drawn?
19 A. My understanding is that Larry Lieber wrote
20 scripts before the panels were drawn, but that that
21 statement as you phrased it does not give a full portrait
22 of the process.
23 Q. Other than the phone call that you described
24 in 1969, do you have any other personal direct knowledge
25 of how the comic books that Lee and Kirby worked on
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1 together were plotted?
2 A. Talking to people who worked with them,
3 talking to Sol Brodsky, talking to other people who worked
4 with Stan and Jack concurrently.
5 Q. Who were the other people?
6 A. Talking to Stan for that matter, Stan himself.
7 Stan and Jack both told me stories that matched up about
8 those meetings. You know, if Stan says, oh, yeah,
9 sometimes I just called Jack and said do another issue of
10 Dr. Doom, and Jack tells me the same thing, I assume
11 that's pretty good verification.
12 Q. On page 10 also you wrote that, "As Kirby
13 worked, he would not only draw out the story and invent
14 new characters where necessary" -- by the way, part of his
15 assignment was as to invent new characters, where
16 necessary, wasn't it?
17 MR. TOBEROFF: Vague.
18 Q. Wasn't that part of the shtick?
19 MR. TOBEROFF: Vague. No Yiddish, please.
20 A. I understand Yiddish a little bit.
21 As you phrased it, that's difficult to answer.
22 Give me a minute here.
23 Jack was paid and credited as the artist. It
24 has never been in the industry an assumption that the
25 artist would make up characters when he drew the comic.
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1 like that in the room helping flesh out whatever ideas you
2 had, change them, and bring in his input.
3 I'm not saying Stan is lying. I'm saying he's
4 choosing his words carefully, remembering a version. I
5 disagree with Stan about some aspects of Marvel history.
6 We've had friendly arguments about certain issues and
7 certain comics and how things came about and how they were
8 published. And sometimes I get him to agree with me. I
9 show him evidence.
10 Q. Well, one thing we've established, during this
11 period from '58 to '63, Stan was there, and you weren't.
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. You say in your expert report at page 15
14 carrying over to 16 that "It is also worth noting that
15 Stan Lee did not create any important characters either
16 before Jack Kirby first worked with Lee or after Jack
17 Kirby stopped working with Lee in 1970."
18 Do you see that bottom of 15 over to 16 in
19 your report?
20 A. Hold on here. Yes, I see that.
21 Q. After he stopped working for Lee in 1970, what
22 successful characters did Kirby create?
23 A. Well, he created a series for DC called The
24 New Gods. Featured a villain called Dark Side, one of the
25 most important villains in Allied DC Comics. Did a book
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1 old picture of me.
2 MR. TOBEROFF: Very cherubic.
3 What number are we up to?
4 Q. 14. Can you just identify this document for
5 us, please.
6 A. This is a scan or xerox of my column that
7 appeared in Jack Kirby Collector No. Thirty-Eight
8 Q. And just a couple of questions on this. You
9 were being asked, I guess, a series of This is Jack FAQs.
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Frequently Asked Questions. And one of them
12 is: Jack Kirby designed Spider-Man's custom.
13 And you answer: False. Steve Ditko designed
14 the distinctive costume we all know and love. Jack did
15 claim to have presented the idea to Stan of doing a hero
16 named Spiderman, no hyphen, who walked on walls and other
17 Spiderman themed powers, a claim which Stan formally
18 denies.
19 A. I think I said vociferously denies.
20 Q. Oh, I'm sorry. You're right. Vociferously
21 denies.
22 Tell me which version do you believe with
23 regard to Jack's supposedly bringing the idea of Superman
24 -- Spider-Man to Stan Lee? Do you believe Jack's version
25 or Stan's vociferous denial?
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1 A. As I stated earlier, I believe -- well, I
2 believe that Jack did bring in the idea of doing Spiderman
3 to Marvel.
4 Q. So you believe Jack's version?
5 A. I believe that part of Jack's version.
6 Q. That's the part I'm asking you about.
7 A. Okay. I believe that Jack did come in and
8 present that to Marvel.
9 Q. Okay. And that's based on your discussions
10 with Jack?
11 A. Based on my discussions with Jack, based on
12 the fact that he had this piece of artwork that said
13 Spiderman done by Joe Simon earlier.
14 Q. That's the one that you don't have any idea
15 where it is today; right?
16 A. I don't know where it is today, no, but
17 it's --
18 Q. Did you ever see the piece of work?
19 A. I held it in my hands.
20 Q. You did. And what happened to it? Do you
21 have any idea?
22 A. Jack kept it for many years, and at one point
23 when he was talking to Joe Simon, Joe said, "Hey, I'd like
24 that back." And he sent it back to Joe Simon. I think I
25 answered this question earlier. And the last I saw of it
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EXHIBIT 3
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Page 1
2 CENTRAL DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
3
4 MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC., MARVEL )
CHARACTERS, INC., and MVL RIGHTS,)
5 LLC, )
)
6 Plaintiffs, )
) CASE NO.
7 vs. ) 10 CV 141 (CM)(KNF)
) Pages 1 - 192
8 LISA A. KIRBY, BARBARA J. KIRBY, )
NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN N. KIRBY,)
9 )
Defendants. )
10 _________________________________)
11
12 VOLUME I
13 VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF MARK EVANIER
14 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA
15 TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 9, 2010
16
17
18
19
20
21
22 REPORTED BY:
LESLIE L. WHITE
23 CSR NO. 4148
JOB NO.: 34167
24
25
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1 BY MR. QUINN:
2 Q I will put it this way: Any of the plaintiffs
3 or related Marvel companies, do you have any personal
4 knowledge --
5 A Any personal knowledge? No, I do not.
6 Q Now just go through some data points.
7 What was -- what is your date of birth?
8 A March 2nd, 1952.
9 Q So that would make you about 58 years old?
10 A I would think so, yes.
11 Q And am I correct that between the years 1958
12 and 1963 you were between six and 11 years old?
13 A That would follow, yes.
14 Q Yes, and you lived in California?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And I assume that between that period of time
17 you had no involvement with anyone at Marvel?
18 A Between '53 and '62 --
19 Q '58 and '63.
20 A '58 and '63? No involvement with anyone at
21 Marvel.
22 Q You understand that in connection with this
23 lawsuit those years are the years that are most relevant
24 to the works that are at dispute --
25 A I understand that --
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1 And that would have been about a week after I
2 got out of high school. So it would have been June of
3 1969.
4 Q Okay. And that really was when you began as a
5 freelance writer?
6 A Correct.
7 Q Did there come a time that you met Jack Kirby?
8 A Yes.
9 Q And how did that come about?
10 A You want the long version or the short
11 version?
12 Q Whatever the most complete version you can
13 give me without boring us to death.
14 A Well, you better leave now.
15 In -- at that time -- the time being July of
16 '69 -- I was the president of a local comic book club
17 called the Los Angeles Comic Book Club. Jack and his
18 wife Rosalyn attended a science fiction convention on
19 the July 4th weekend of that year that was held at the
20 Miramar Hotel in Santa Monica.
21 And at that convention they met some of the
22 officers of our club. I was not present for the
23 convention, but they met some officers of the club, and
24 they invited them, they said, "Why don't you bring your
25 Board of Directors down to our house for a visit."
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1 So the following Tuesday I think it was, three
2 of the other officers of the club and I drove down to
3 Irvine, California where the Kirbys were living. None
4 of us could drive at that time, so one of the officer's
5 mothers drove us down, and that was the day I met Jack
6 and Roz.
7 Q And how old were you?
8 A This was June of '69, so I was 17 years old.
9 Q And --
10 A Excuse me, this was July of '69.
11 Q Okay. Fair enough.
12 And did you subsequently go to work for
13 Mr. Kirby as an assistant or an apprentice?
14 A Yes.
15 Q And how did that come about?
16 A Well, after -- the day after I met Jack I met
17 the people at a company, local firm called Marvelmania
18 International, which was a licensee of Marvel that was
19 producing fan club material. They were selling posters
20 and little plastic pillows and decals. And I got hired
21 by them to be their in-house Marvel expert and to edit
22 the club fan magazine.
23 And I met Jack -- I had a lot of dealings with
24 Jack for several months, the balance of '69, as he
25 was -- as we were doing merchandise based on his artwork
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1 Q Now you mentioned that you saw him a lot
2 during that period, let's say from 1972 until his death
3 in -- I believe it was 1994, was it?
4 A I should know this. '94 I believe, yes.
5 Q During that period of time I take it you
6 remained in close contact with Mr. Kirby?
7 A Yes, I did.
8 Q Is that a fair statement?
9 A That is a fair statement, yes.
10 Q And you would have dinners with the family,
11 among other things?
12 A From time to time, yes.
13 Q And, in fact, Mr. Kirby became a very close
14 friend of yours; isn't that right?
15 A I would like to think so.
16 Q And you stated publicly that he treated you
17 like family; isn't that right?
18 A I may have said that at times, yes. I
19 actually --
20 Q And, indeed, he even introduced as his son
21 Mike from time to time?
22 A He made that slip once, yes.
23 Q And it's fair to say that over that period of
24 time you came to idolize Jack Kirby, didn't you?
25 A I would never -- I would not use the word
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1 "idolize." I certainly respected the man greatly.
2 Q You had great affection for him too, didn't
3 you?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 Q Now have you done work for Marvel over the
6 years?
7 A Yes, I have.
8 Q Could you describe that for us.
9 A Let's see, I wrote -- well, this gets
10 complicated because there were a number of -- I did
11 quite a number of projects where I wrote materials that
12 I was paid by another firm but Marvel published them. I
13 was paid by someone else, and then Marvel published the
14 books --
15 Q Uh-huh.
16 A -- but my paycheck came from someone else.
17 Q From somebody else?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Right.
20 A In that category I did -- I was the editor of
21 the -- I was the writer and then subsequently the editor
22 of a line of comics for Hanna Barbera, which Marvel
23 published. I was hired by the Edgar Rice Burroughs
24 Company to write a series of Tarzan comics, and Marvel
25 published one or two of those.
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1 Q Okay. I'm going to rephrase.
2 It's correct, is it not, that over the years
3 you have earned a significant amount of money writing
4 about Jack Kirby, haven't you?
5 A No --
6 MR. TOBEROFF: Lacks foundation.
7 BY MR. QUINN:
8 Q You have earned money writing about Jack
9 Kirby; correct?
10 A Yes.
11 Q "Significant" is a relative term; right?
12 A Um, in the sense that "significant" implies a
13 lot of money, that would not be correct.
14 Q You have earned, over the course of a number
15 of years, money writing about Jack Kirby; right?
16 A I have earned -- I have been paid to write
17 about Jack, yes.
18 Q And did you search for documents that would
19 show the amount of compensation you earned in connection
20 with writing about Jack Kirby?
21 A No, I did not.
22 MR. QUINN: We would request that, since it is part
23 of the Subpoena. I direct that to you, Mr. Toberoff.
24 Q Did you search for documents that related or
25 might relate to the dispute that you described with
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1 regard to the artwork?
2 A The current dispute over artwork?
3 Q Yes.
4 A I did not have -- no, I did not have any.
5 Q Your testimony is that you did not have any
6 documents relating -- that might relate to the artwork
7 dispute in your files?
8 A My testimony is that I knew I did not have
9 any.
10 Q Okay. We'll come back to that.
11 Fair to say -- you mentioned that you had
12 visited the Marvel offices sometime in the '70s; is that
13 right?
14 A I visited several times during the '70s.
15 Q You hadn't visited between 1958 and 1963;
16 right?
17 A That's correct.
18 Q So you personally have no knowledge about the
19 activities going on in connection with the creation of
20 comic books between the years 1958 and 1963 at Marvel;
21 correct?
22 A I do not agree with that statement.
23 Q Other than what you have been told by somebody
24 else, you personally have no knowledge about what
25 occurred between 1958 and 1963 in the creation of comic
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1 books at Marvel in New York City, do you?
2 MR. TOBEROFF: Asked and answered. He already
3 answered that question.
4 BY MR. QUINN:
5 Q Answer it again.
6 A I do not agree with that statement.
7 Q I'm going to ask it one more time.
8 MR. TOBEROFF: No, you can't ask the same question
9 three times.
10 BY MR. QUINN:
11 Q I tell you what, you're right.
12 Tell me why you don't agree with that
13 statement, Mr. Evanier.
14 A Because I believe I know an awful lot about
15 what happened at Marvel Comics during that period of
16 time.
17 Q Perhaps you weren't listening to my question.
18 A All right.
19 Q I'll try it one more time in that context. I
20 am not asking you what you believe you know.
21 I'm asking you whether -- isn't it a fact that
22 since you weren't there you have no personal firsthand
23 knowledge about what happened in the creation of comic
24 books between 1958 and 1963? That's a fact, sir, isn't
25 it?
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2 THE WITNESS: Um --
3 MR. TOBEROFF: You can answer one more time.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't agree with that statement --
5 well, you added the word "personal" this time.
6 If your question is did I watch them creating
7 the comics, no, I was not there when they created the
8 comics.
9 BY MR. QUINN:
10 Q That's the question.
11 A All right. You could have asked it that way
12 and saved us a lot of time.
13 Q So you didn't see any story conferences that
14 went on; correct?
15 A I was not present for story conferences that
16 went on. In --
17 (Speaking simultaneously.)
18 BY MR. QUINN:
19 Q And you didn't see any --
20 A Excuse me, let me --
21 Q I'm sorry --
22 A -- let me answer the question.
23 Q -- go ahead, please.
24 A I was not present for story conferences that
25 went on between 1958 and 1963.
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1 foundation.
2 THE WITNESS: Um, as I said before, I was not
3 present in the offices between '58 and '63. Does that
4 answer your question?
5 BY MR. QUINN:
6 Q As long as you say yes my question is correct.
7 A I don't understand your question.
8 MR. TOBEROFF: You don't have to agree with his
9 question. Just answer his question, and if you feel
10 like you can't answer the question, don't . . .
11 THE WITNESS: I do not understand the question well
12 enough to answer it, to give you a yes or no answer to
13 it.
14 BY MR. QUINN:
15 Q Since you weren't present as you just
16 testified --
17 A Yes.
18 Q -- you could not have observed the manner in
19 which Stan Lee gave plot outlines, gave scripts, gave
20 direction to the artists, such as Jack Kirby, during
21 that period of time 1958 to '63; true?
22 MR. TOBEROFF: Again, the question is assuming all
23 sorts of facts that haven't been established, and lacks
24 foundation.
25 MR. QUINN: Read it back.
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1 (The record was read as follows:
2 "Q Since you weren't present as
3 you just testified --
4 "A Yes.
5 "Q -- you could not have
6 observed the manner in which
7 Stan Lee gave plot outlines, gave
8 scripts, gave direction to the
9 artists, such as Jack Kirby, during
10 that period of time 1958 to '63;
11 true?")
12 MR. TOBEROFF: Same objections.
13 THE WITNESS: Um, I don't understand -- I don't
14 understand the use of the phrase "during that time."
15 If you are asking me did I observe it during
16 that time, no, I did not observe it during that time.
17 BY MR. QUINN:
18 Q That's what I was asking you.
19 A I was not watching them do it -- between 1958
20 and 1963 I was not there watching them do it.
21 Q Right. Okay. And did you ever personally see
22 any paychecks that Mr. Kirby received from work that he
23 performed at Marvel that covered the period 1958 to
24 1963?
25 A No, I did not.
JA1007
CaseCase 11-3333, Document 75,
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Filed 02/25/11 of 3171 of 6
EXHIBIT 4
JA1008
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B-1
1 - VOLUME B -
2 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
3 IN AND FOR THE DISTRICT OF DELAWARE
5 IN RE: Chapter 11 Case

6 MARVEL ENTERTAINMENT GROUP INC., THE
ASHER CANDY COMPANY, FLEER CORP.,
7 FRANKL. FLEER CORP., HEROES WORLD Case No. 97-638-RRM
DISTRIBUTION INC., MALIBU COMICS
B ENTERTAINMENT INC., MARVEL CHARACTERS:
INC. , MARVEL DIRECT MARKETING INC. ,
9 and SKYBOX INTERNATIONAL INC.
10 Debtors.
11
12 Wilmington, Delaware
Tuesday, November 16, 1999
13 At 10:05 a.m.
14
15 BEFORE: HONORABLE RODERICK R. McKELVIE, U.S.D.C.J.
16
17 APPEARANCES:
18
PEPPER HAMILTON LLP
19 BY: DAVID B. STRATTON, ESQ.
20 -and-
21 BATTLE FOWLER LLP

BY: DAVID FLEISCHER, ESQ. and
22 JODI KLEINICK, ESQ.
(New York, New York)
23
counsel for Marvel Enterprises, Inc.
24
25 Brian P. Gaffigan
Official Court Reporter
A n EXHIBIT,_l_
Dep<:)n:erlf.~~it le:: ~I
[?c,(, ·t~J ; \('L-
Dcite...;,_..;;__.Rptr.-
www.D£1'()11boJC.COM
CONFIDENTIAL MARVE LOO 16713
JA1009
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B-211
Evanier - direct
1 it would seem to be that because someone alleges that they
2 have rights, they have the rights. And, I don't think this
3 complaint offers anything more than that. It's just utterly
4 irrelevant.
5 THE COURT: I don't think you can use an expert
6 as a vehicle to testify about specific examples of other
7 disputes between Marvel and other parties. He could testify
8 about industry practice or whatever else it is that you have
9 put the other side on notice he is going to testify to but,
10 for example, I don't think he is in a position to testify
11 about what third parties told him for the purpose of me
12 taking it as being the truth, taken for the truth of the
13 matter asserted except to the extent that it goes to hearsay
14 that he would rely on to testify about industry practices and
15 procedures.
16 MR. DILIBERTO: That is what he --
17 THE COURT: I hope you understand the distinction
18 I'm trying to draw, because I think an expert is entitled to
19 rely on hearsay, but I don't think you are entitled to put an
20 expert on to establish facts, particular facts in dispute or
21 particular facts the other side does dispute except to the
22 extent you would otherwise look on them on matters under Rule
23 703 as an expert.
24 MR. DILIBERTO: Okay. I understand.
25 THE COURT: So why don't you back up and head in
CONFIDENTIAL MARVE LOO 16736
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B-213
Evanier direct
1 THE COURT: No, I don't. What I'm trying to say
2 is that it's typical an expert gets on the stanct and under
3 Rule 703 can rely on hearsay for the purpose of ~olstering
4 opinions the expert offers, but it's not too typical. An
5 expert gets on the stand and you use the expert, lawyers may
6 attribute that as not too typical, it gets into evidence.
7 The expert establishes what happens in a particular case with
8 particular individuals for the purpose of establishing that
9 as being true for me to take it as true.
10 If you look at it from my perspective, I don't
11 think that I can rely on this witness for the purpose of

12 finding as a matter of fact that the events he testified to
13 in fact happened, in part because the other side has no
14 real ability to cross-examine the principal actors in the
15 incident. And, so I don't think it's consistent with the
16 Rule 11 as to allow him or try to use him to establish
17 certain facts I would end up finding. If you would look at
18 the opinion, I wonder if I could cite this witness for those
19 facts as being true. I don't think I could. I don't think
20 it's consistent with the Rules of Evidence.
21 So what you want to do, what I was suggesting
22 is you want to back up, you want to establish through this
23 witness the general concepts of ind~stry practice that you
24 think that he wants to establish, and then he might set
25 examples from his experience and from his knowledge of the
JA1011
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B-214
Evanier - direct
1 community of what he relies on to show that general industry
2 practice, if that is the direction you are headed.
3 BY MR. DILIBERTO:
4 Q. Okay. Mr. Evanier, in the late 1960s through December
5 31, 1977, are you aware of any custom or practice in the
6 comic book industry that gave comic book companies ownership
7 of materials they published?
a A. on only a company-by-company basis, what specific
9 companies may have issued.
10 MR. FLEISCHER: Your Honor, I'll object to this

11 because it's beyond the scope of the report. Mr. Evanier,
12 in his report, gave opinions on that subject matter but was

13 unspecific as to time. And in his deposition, he indicated
14 that his report was not time specific. And, therefore, any
15 testimony that he gives with respect to these time specific
16 questions would be beyond the scope of his report.
17 THE COURT: Overruled.
iB MR. DILIBERTO: Thank you, your Honor.
19 BY MR. DILIBERTO:
20 Q. You were saying?
21 A. Where was I? I'm lost.
22 Q. Okay. Yes. The question was, are you aware of any
23 comic book industry custom or practice between the late 1960s
24 to December 31 of 1977 that would have given comic book
25 companies ownership of any characters and stories that they
JA1012
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B-240
Evanier - direct
1 companies trying to induce creators to assign rights to the
2 companies; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, I did.
4 Q. And based on the facts you just stated, what opinion
5 does that render regarding comic book companies using their
6 economic powers to induce creat·ors to assign rights to comic

7 · book companies?
8 MR. FLEISCHER: Objection, competence.
9 MR. PETRICH: I'm going to add hearsay, your
10 Honor, and move to strike. This is all based on what Jack
ll Kirby said happened.
12 THE COURT: Again, I don't think I'm going to be
13 able to, if I have to make findings of fact, I don't think
14 I would be able to cite this witness's testimony for the
15 purpose of making this finding. That is, it doesn't have,
16 it's just not consistent with the Rules of Evidence that I
17 can rely on what he is saying what happened in particular
18 instances for the purpose of determining that it in fact did
19 happen.
20 Why don't we stop for the nigh'!:-, start again
21 tomorrow morning at 9:00 o'clock.
22 MR. DILIBERTO: All right. Thank you.
23 THE COURT: All right? I'll rely on local
24 counsel to get people out of the building. You know how to
25 get out afterhours. You push the red button at the front
JA1013
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EXHIBIT 5
JA1014
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;.,.;-..,
li 7t EXHJBIT_v_ Ma-rk Evanier
InRe:
Marvel Enterainment Group, I11c. "'- £/;,\111 iY' 6<-tEP'
...,.,ponen, , October 12, 1999
· P-Lr7v c~--
Paga 1 Date _ _ _ Rptr,__ ff-the-record discussion.)
IN THE UNITED STArES DJSTP.ICT COURT EXH19IT NO. DESCRIPTION www.or;poBDO<.COM
FOR THE DISTRICT OF DELAWARE 9 Documenttltlod'E•pertAo"'.''" " ,,.,., trt.
FLEISCHER: Let me mark for 1221 ·•·.:.
INRE: Mark EO\Ianlar" \9 pages) identification as Evanler Exhibit 2 a.~
MARVEL ENTERTAINMENT GROUP, INC.;) 10 Cop-fol a portion of 'TheM of_ 200 a
photOCOj)V Of {23) document that has:!;!)!;:
THE ASHER CANDY COMPANY; FLEER CORP.;) th~ CQfflic Book, *n Aetlthotu:~ "' -7? ~
FRANK H. FLEER CORP.; HEROES WORLD) History· {12pagos) voucher number of 125733 at the 124('\'
DISTRIBUTION, INC.; MAUBU COMICS ) Co&<> No. 97·638· 11 Cop'J of • portion ot'Tno COJ'n«o. 21~ upper right-hand cot·ner and the doc!
RAM Journal' (41 pages) . ument control number [251 WOLF 239 in
ENIEI1TAINMENT, INC.; MARVEL) 12 Copy o1 a portfon of ·rne C<lm1os 259 •
CHARACTERS, lt.JC.; MARVEL DIRECT ) Journal' (9 pages) the lower nght·hand comer.
MARKETING INC.; and SKYBOX)
INTERNATIONAL, INC., ) Pages Page 10
O<>blors. ) (II MARK EVANIER, 111 (Evanler Exhibit No.2(<! was mrk'd for
DEPOSITION OF MARK EVAtJIER
Tuesday, 0<:1ober 12, 191!9 121 having been duly ~'Worn, 13J was identification.)
NEWLANOER & NEWLANDER examined and testified as follows: 131 BY MR. FLEISCHER:
1138 WILSHIRE BOULEVARD, SUirE 200
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TELEPHONE: (21_.,.:3)_4_82_-1_5_22_ _ _ __
t6J BY MR. FLEISCHER: (51 possession of Exhibit 2?
Page2 {61 A: When I was working for Marvel in
Deposition of MARK EVANleR,Iaken by !71 Q: Mr. Evanier, would you state your
Ma!'W'I Entt~rpri$¢li., Inc.. at 2049 Cen1UJY address {SJ for the record, please. them Eighties, I was sent a pile of these,
Par!< Ea&t 1 Suite. 2350, Los Ange1es1
!91 A: 6282 Drexel Avenue, D·r-e-x-e-1,
of which this is rsJ one copy of many
Galilornla, commencing at 11:35 am.,
Tuesday, October 12, ill99, betOl'• Avenue, I !OJ L.A., 90048. duplicates.
laura l. Gra.yt C.S.R No. 4H14, and
1111 Q: How old are you, sir? 191 Q: I notice that the document has a
Geni!ynn S1rasnlder, C.S.R. No. 4129.
control(lOI number in the lower right·
Page 3 tt21A: 47. hand corner. Was the control !Ill number
APPEARANCES Of COUNSEL: !l3J MR. FLEISCHER: Let me ask the re-
ON BEHALF OF MARVEl ENTERPRISES. INC.:
placed on the document after you fur-
BAffiE FOWLER LlP porter to [14! mark for identification as nished it to (12) Mr. Wolfman's counsel?
BY: DAVID FLEISCHER, EOO. Evanier Exhibit I a photocopy nst of a
1131 A: Yes, it was. When you asked me
75 Eas1 55th Str..t deposition notice dated September 24,
Now Yo:!<, did I of
ON BEHALF OF MARVIN A. WOLFMAN:
1999. this, I was referring to the [151 document
THE lAW FIRM OF KLEINBERG & LERNER. LLP {161 (Evanier Exhibit No.1 [17! was rnrk'd that was xeroxed,not the document that
BY: MICHAEL R. DILIBERTO, ESQ. for identification.)
ADRIAN A. ASKARIEH, ESQ. (Ao Noted) you [161 handed me.
Sulle 10SO !lSI BY MR. FLEISCHER: 117J Q: Right. You were referring to the
2049 C¢ntuly P~rk E~
Lo• Ang•l•s. California 90067-~1 12 (191 Q: Mr. Evanier, have you ever seen a [181 original.
copy of 1201 what we've marked as ll9J A: Correct.
Page4 Exhibit 1?
APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL: (Conl'd)
1201 Q; And are you able to tell us when
ON 8EHALF OF NEW LINE CINEMA: l2ll A: I believe this is a copy of a
LEOPOLD, PETFIICH & SMITH for the 1211 first time you received a
BY: LOUIS P. PeTRICH, ESQ. (As N<Md) document 1221 that I was given, yes. document in the form of t2Zt Exhibit 2
Sulte3110 1231 Q: Directing your attention to page 8 from Marvel?
2049 Century Pork E<>s~
lo& Ar.ge!ee, California 00067~3274
of the [241 document, there are a series of !231 MR. DILIBERTO: Objection. Vague
ALSO PRIOSENT: numbered paragraphs [251 requesting and {241 ambiguous.
MARVIN A. WOLFMAN (As Noted) documents.Did youreviewyourfiles for
Page 11
Page 5
INDEX
Page9 111 BY MR. FLEISCHER:
WITNESS EXAMINATlON PAGE
MARK EVANIER [lJ purpose of ascertaining whether you 121 Q: Do you understand the question?
(A.M. Session)
Sy Mr. Fleischer a
had any documents [21 responsive to the !31 /!.: What do l do now?
(P.M. s"""ion) numbered paragraphs in the document t4l Q: You can answer.
By Mr. Reischer 99 £31 request?
UNANSWERED QUES110NS !51 A: All right.
PAGE LINE 111 A: Could I have that one more time?
74 2
t6J Q: Throughout the deposition, you
!51 Q: Did you review your records, will hear (71 objections.
EXHIBITS
EVANIER wherever you 161 keep them, to dete-
EXH191TNO, DESCRIPTION F'AGE rmine whether you had in your !71 tS.l A: All right. Ask me again, please.
1 DeposH!oo notice {10 pa9es) 8 possession or control any documents !91 MR. FLEISCHER: Would you read it
2 Mar\fel Cotnlcs Group voucher 10
that fell into the i8l -categories requested back, IJOl please.
--· ___(1~~-·~---·····--·········---------·-···-· in paragraphs 1 through 17 of the f9J orJ (fhe record was read as follows:
Page6 document request?
EXHIBIT NO, DESCRIPTION PAGE 1121 "Q, And are you able to tell us [131
3 Letterfrcm MarkS. Evanlet to 13 1101 A: Yes, r did. when for the first time you received a fl4l
Western Pub!h:hing Company, !ne.
(1 page) (Ill Q: And did you bring them with you document in the form of Exhibit 2 from
4 DQcurr.ent1itled •Artwork Release.. 13 today? rrsJ Marvel?")
doled 811>1179 (1 pag<l)
5 Document tltl&d '"Aulgnment• 16 1121 A: I brought the material I under- 1161 BY THE WITNESS:
(10p0jjes) stood was (131 covered, yes. [I7J A: I received it at some point in the
S Februruy 20, 19$71elter on MMI"' 16
Enterta!n.'1'!Cr'rt Group letterhead hom rl•t Q: Okay. May I see it, please. early 1!81 w mid Eighties.
Jos$ph A. Calamarl to Mr. Jack Kirby,
rt5J MR. DILIBERTO: This is an original !191 BY MR. FLEISCHER:
with at«whm•nt (11 pag••l
7 Document tilled "Ackn.owledgemont Of l7 we'd tJ6J like to have back, but I have 1201 Q: Do you remember in connection
Copyright Owne>W~Ip" (;;!pages) made a copy foryou, which 071 is in here. with what IZIJ work, if any, you received
8- Ccmpiaint and seoond amondod t9
oomple.inl in SIIY"lQn 11$. Goodman, [181 MR. FlEJSCHER:Okay. !191 Off the the first document of this 1221 type?
etal. record a second. A:No.
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In Re: Mark Evanier

Marvel Enterainment Group, Inc. October 12, 1999
[ 14] profit-sharing plan- Itakethatback. more cases of artist'! retaining creative f6! Q: And how did you come to that 171
It would be a llSl royalty provision, which control over 1111 their wodc There were understanding?
was similar to the f16J profit-sharing plan more cases of people making [12! deals rs1 A: Looking at Print Mint comics and
that Western Publishing had in the rm where they held the copyrights to their seeing !91 the copyright notices.
Sixties and into the Seventies, but DC liS! characters.
llOJ Q: And in yourview,PrintMintwasa
had not similarly [1Sl had that across-the- !141 There were more cases where peo- llll mainstream publisher prim· to 1978?
board plan for anyone who created ll9l ple were [l5J working i.u even a wider
new property for them or who was (121 A: Well,bymydefinition,itwonld be.
variety of methods for [16] individual
doing a comic that sold 1201 over a certain companies. That is to say that there was They [131 certainly sold an awful lot of
level. [17J less reliance on any given company
comics. I'm basing 1141 ''mainstream" on
1211 Q: Any other changes between those on one way of doing [HIJ comies. I think sales figures.
two 1221 periods that you are aware of? the business matured in that they were !151 (Mr.Askarieh returned to the room.)
1211 A: There were many changes, as 1191 willing to tolerate even more creative f16J BY MR. FLEISCHER:
there continue 1241 to be changes in the variance. People 1201 got to write about ll7J Q: By order of magnitude, what
business constantly as different [251 deals more adult-subject material [Z1J some- would you say [lSJ that Print Mint's tOtal
are made and as different contracts are dmes, they got to be more experimental comic book sales in 1977 were as !191
l'm in the [221 artwork, they began exper-
compared with those of either DC or
imenting with computet 1231 lettering
PagG 180 and computer coloring that had not Marvel?
til nor sure- If you could ask me a more existed !241 before '78. f20J A: I don't know. The sales tigures in
specific 121 question, I'll try to give you a 1251 It's a very different- The i11dustry the 1211 comic book industry at that time
more specific answer. were generally 1221 considered to fall into
Page 182
13) Q: I'm not referring to specific trans- two categories: secrets and £231 lies.
[lJ every year or so is different from, you
actions t4l between a specific writer and L24J Q: I thought you numbered Print
know, the years [2J before.
a specific company. I'm 151 trying to Mint among 1251 the mainstream pub-
f3J (Mr.Askarieh left the room.)
ascertain whether it is your under- lishet:S because of your understanding
standing [6! that on an industryWlde basLs !41 BY MR. FLEISCHER:
Page 184
there were material m changes in the !51 Q: Specifically with respect to the
(IJ of their sales.
way the rights to comic book materials ownership [6J of copyright, were there
[SJ were handled by comic book pub- any changes in the industry of mwhich 12lA:Yes.
lishers before 1978 and f91 after 1978. you were aware that occurred after 131 Q: Sowhatwasyourunderstandingof
rwt A: Okay. Yes. I understand now. January 1 of(S!1978? their [41 sales?
Thank you.1111 In the latter period- not t9l A: Some of the companies became [51 A: My understanding of their sales
necessarily 1121 immediately after 1978, more willing (IOJ to make deals in which was that !6! they sold an awful lot of
but in the period that you're [131 des- the artist or writer or some (HI com· comic books that were around 17J on an
cribing, there was much more reliance bination thereof held the copyright to awful lot of racks.
on written fl4J contracts, deal memos in material than ll2J they had been before. rsJ Q: What do you mean by "awful lot of
advance of doing the work, [I5l allowing [t3J Q: Focusing on the mainstream pub- comic !9l books"?
lawyers to consult on comic book com- lishers that [t4l you identified earlier,
pany [161 contracts, agents.There actually !lOJ A: They published a substantial num-
what was the position of DC on 1151 the ber of [Jll comlcs. I can't quote you
were agents that- 117l I never heard prior ownership of copyright prior to 1978?
to '78 of anyone having ;m agent [181 accurate sales figut-es here 1121 because
represent them in a negotiation with a [161 A: l don't know. the sales tigures in the business have
comic book (t9l company, but that hap- fi7l Q: What ·was the position of Marvel? long been [13l kept very secretive or,
pened later on. [UIJ A: Idon'tknowthat there ew.rwasa
when they were published, [141 rumored
to have been completely inaccurate.But
!20J There were new contracts and new dearly [J9l stated position.
language [211 we had never seen before, we 1t5l heard stories of individual Print
rzo] Q: What was the position of Wes- Mint titles selling [161 200, 300,000 cop-
some of which I believe was [221 re- tern?
troactively trying to acquire rights to ies.
fZIJ A: I don't know what their position tl71 Q; Which titles were those?
materials 1231 created plior to 1978.
was.
(MJ Q: Anything else? tlSJ A: I can't give you the names off-
1221 Q: What was the position of Archie? hand. I [191 believe they published Zap
f25l A: They started printing on different
[231 A: I don't know what their position Comi.x for a while. I believe 1201 they
~per - - - · · - - - - - - - - - - was. published a couple of ghost, monster-
Page 181 type comics.[Ztl I don't teallyknow.
i24J Q: What was the position of Harvey?
111 stocks a lot during the
Eighties. Comic tni Q: What was the name of the comic
books were more 121 distdbuted by a 125) A: I don't know what their position
wa"'-'s._ _ __ that you f23J saw the copylight notice on
method caUed direct distribution, 131 that led you to believe that 124! the
which sold the comics on a non- Page 183 practice of Print Mint was to leave the
returnable basis to comic [4J book shops HJ Q: What was the position of Charlton? ,<;:OPyright _125l with the writer?
as opposed to selling them through what
121 A: I don't know what their position Page i85
were [51 called ID distdbutors which put
them on newsstands on a [6J returnable was. [IJ A: I can't cite a specific one. I just 121
basis. 131 Q: What was the position of Print always saw copyright notices in Print
!71 There was more emphasis on credits, Mint? Mint comics.
on [lll artists and Miters having their l''l A: Print Mint, generally I believe the 151 !3l Q: And what did the copyright noti-
names prominently !91 displayed on their artists usually held the copyrights on ces in [4J Print Mint comics say that you
works in the Eighties. There were {lOl their work. recall?
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------------------------------------------------------x
:
MVL RIGHTS, LLC, :
:
Plaintiffs, :
:
- against- :
:
:
Defendants. :
:
:
Counterclaimants, :
:
- against- :
:
MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC., :
MVL RIGHTS, LLC, :
THE WALT DISNEY COMPANY, :
and DOES 1 through 10, :
:
------------------------------------------------------x
NOTICE OF MOTION TO EXCLUDE THE EXPERT REPORT

AND TESTIMONY OF JOHN MORROW
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that upon the annexed Memorandum of Law and
accompanying Declaration of David Fleischer, dated February 18, 2011, and the exhibits thereto,
Plaintiffs and Counterclaim-Defendants Marvel Worldwide, Inc., Marvel Characters, Inc. and
MVL Rights, LLC, Marvel Entertainment, LLC (sued herein as Marvel Entertainment, Inc.) and
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The Walt Disney Company hereby move the Court, before the Honorable Colleen McMahon,
United States District Judge, United States District Court for the Southern District of New York,
at the Daniel Patrick Moynihan United States Courthouse, 500 Pearl Street, New York, New
York for an order excluding the expert report and testimony of John Morrow and for such other
and further relief as this Court may deem just and proper.
Dated: February 25, 2011 By: /s/ David Fleischer

HAYNES AND BOONE, LLP
David Fleischer
Sarah Jacobson
30 Rockefeller Plaza, 26th floor
New York, NY 10112
Tel: (212) 659-7300
Fax: (212) 884-9567
WEIL, GOTSHAL & MANGES LLP

James W. Quinn
R. Bruce Rich
Randi W. Singer
Sabrina A. Perelman
767 Fifth Avenue
New York, NY 10153
Tel: (212) 310-8000
Fax: (212) 310-8007
PAUL, HASTINGS, JANOFSKY & WALKER LLP

Jodi A. Kleinick
75 East 55th Street
New York, NY 10022
Tel: (212) 318-6000
Fax: (212) 230-7691
Attorneys for Plaintiffs/Counterclaim-Defendants
-2-
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------------------------------------------------------x
:
MVL RIGHTS, LLC, :
:
Plaintiffs, :
:
- against- :
:
:
Defendants. :
:
:
Counterclaim-Plaintiffs, :
:
- against- :
:
MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC., MVL :
RIGHTS, LLC, THE WALT DISNEY :
COMPANY and DOES 1 through 10, :
:
------------------------------------------------------x
DECLARATION OF DAVID FLEISCHER IN SUPPORT OF MOTION

BY PLAINTIFFS AND COUNTERCLAIM-DEFENDANTS TO EXCLUDE
THE EXPERT REPORT AND TESTIMONY OF JOHN MORROW
David Fleischer hereby declares pursuant to 28 U.S.C. § 1746 as follows:
1. I am a member of Haynes and Boone, LLP, co-counsel for plaintiffs
Marvel Worldwide, Inc., Marvel Characters, Inc. and MVL Rights, LLC (collectively
“Plaintiffs”) and counterclaim-defendants Marvel Entertainment, LLC (sued herein as Marvel
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Entertainment, Inc. and together with Plaintiffs, “Marvel”) and The Walt Disney Company
(“Disney”) and submit this declaration in support of the motion (the “Motion”) of Marvel and
Disney to exclude the expert report and testimony of John Morrow.
2. A copy of the expert report of John Morrow dated November 4, 2010 is
annexed hereto as Exhibit A.
3. Copies of the pages from the transcript of the January 10, 2011 deposition
of John Morrow cited in the accompanying memorandum of law submitted in support of the
Motion are annexed hereto as Exhibit B.
4. A copy of the expert report of Mark Evanier dated November 4, 2010 is
annexed hereto as Exhibit C.
I declare under penalty of perjury that the foregoing is true and correct. Executed
on February 18, 2011.
/s/ David Fleischer

David Fleischer
2
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EXHIBIT B
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Page 1
1 JOHN MORROW 1
3 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK
4 ------------------------------x
5 MARVEL WORLDWIDE, INC.,
MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC.,
6 and MLV RIGHTS, LLC,
7 Plaintiffs,
8 v. Case No. 10-141-CMKF
9 LISA R. KIRBY, BARBARA J.
KIRBY, NEAL L. KIRBY and
10 SUSAN N. KIRBY,
11 Defendants.
12 ------------------------------x
13
14 Video Deposition of JOHN MORROW

15 (Taken by Plaintiffs)
16 Raleigh, North Carolina
17 January 10, 2011
18
19
20
21
22
23 Reported by: Marisa Munoz-Vourakis -

RMR, CRR and Notary Public
24
25 TSG JOB NO. 35702
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Page 10
1 JOHN MORROW 10
2 the case for the magazine.
3 So I called him and asked him if he would
4 be interested in doing an interview. He said, you
5 know, possibly somewhere down the line, you know, we
6 could do something like that. That was our first
7 contact.
8 And then I guess I assume he called me --
9 you might remember better than I do -- but like about a
10 year ago, and asked if I would do the report.
11 Q. And what did you understand the subject
12 matter of the report or the content of the report was
13 going to be?
14 A. Oh, well, see, there were a few things that
15 were going to be covered. A lot of the history of
16 Marvel Comics going back to like the 1940s. Jack
17 Kirby's history working for the company, and gosh, sort
18 of, you know, that it should contain, you know, my
19 personal observations from my years of doing, you know,
20 comic scholarship work, about, you know, industry
21 practices and things like that.
22 Q. Was any engagement letter signed between
23 Mr. Toberoff's office and yourself?
24 A. What is an engagement letter?
25 Q. A letter setting out the terms and
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Page 13
1 JOHN MORROW 13
2 Q. And that continues today?
3 A. It does. I think we actually told them we
4 would be dropping it to just about 800 an issue now
5 because of the economy and all sales have kind of
6 declined.
7 Q. Do you have any understanding with
8 Mr. Toberoff with regard to any arrangement to publish
9 anything about this case in consideration of your
10 providing a report?
11 A. No. No. I hope after it's all said and
12 done that I can interview various parties involved, if
13 they're allowed to talk about it. But, no, we don't
14 have an arrangement or anything like that.
15 Q. Have you ever had any business dealings
16 with Mr. Toberoff prior to being contacted in
17 connection with this case?
18 A. No, other than my initial request to get an
19 interview from him, which never resulted in anything.
20 Q. How old are you?
21 A. About 48.
22 Q. And would you summarize your educational
23 background, beginning with high school?
24 A. Sure. Twelve years of high school diploma,
25 four-year college degree with a bachelor in fine arts.
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Page 16
1 JOHN MORROW 16
2 programs. A wide range of things. A lot of commercial
3 real estate work, things like that.
4 Q. Do you have any legal training?
5 A. No. No.
6 Q. Do you have any training in the art or
7 science of determining whether people are telling the
8 truth or lying?
9 A. No, no professional training. I guess just
10 intuition, such as it is.
11 Q. What, if anything, did you do to prepare
12 for today's deposition?
13 A. I pulled out a few issues of our
14 publications and a few other publications, just to
15 reread some things.
16 What else? I read back my report, met with
17 Mr. Toberoff yesterday for an hour or two, and having
18 never done this before, he kind of talked me through
19 what the, you know, the whole experience was going to
20 be like, and he told me not to get nervous and kind of
21 went over my report page by page and just talked about
22 specifics of what I put in there.
23 Other than that, pretty much nothing.
24 Q. Where did the meeting between yourself and
25 Mr. Toberoff take place?
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1 JOHN MORROW 17
2 A. Oh, over at the, what is it, the Sheraton
3 Hotel, where he's staying.
4 Q. And was anyone other than the two of you
5 present at that meeting?
6 A. No.
7 Q. And during the course of that meeting, did
8 you look at any documents other than your expert
9 report?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Have you ever seen any other expert report
12 issued in connection with this case?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Have you ever been told what the contents
15 of any other expert report issued in this case are?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you reviewed any deposition testimony
18 given in this case?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So you've never reviewed the deposition
21 testimony of Mark Evanier, for example?
22 A. No. I work with Roy Thomas, and Roy in a
23 phone conversation mentioned to me that he had been
24 deposed, and it took like, he said it took like three
25 days or something like that, but we didn't actually
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1 JOHN MORROW 18
2 talk about specifics of what he said or anything that
3 went on.
4 Q. And I'm correct based on your answer, I
5 assume that you have not seen any testimony of Stan Lee
6 or any of the Kirbys?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Or John Romita?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Were you told of any testimony given by
11 Larry Lieber in the case?
12 A. No.
13 Q. On this one, I've -- check your
14 acquaintanceship, if any, with some people, first of
15 whom is Martin Goodman. Did you ever meet Martin
16 Goodman?
17 A. Oh, no, that was well before my time.
18 Q. Did you ever meet Saul Brodsky?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did you ever meet Stan Lee?
21 A. I met him on a few occasions. I'm not sure
22 that he would recall them.
23 The first time would have been 1978, just
24 standing in line at a comic convention to get his
25 autograph.
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1 JOHN MORROW 37
2 Lisa or Neal told you was pertinent to the opinions
3 that you've set forth in your expert report?
4 A. Well, I can't really recall specifics right
5 now. Of course, I've done a lot of interviews over the
6 years and read probably ten times as many as I've
7 actually conducted, and they all kind of, you know, go
8 in there and help form the opinions on things.
9 So I'm sure if I had the interviews in
10 front of me, I could read through them and say oh,
11 yeah, that probably helped form my opinions on my
12 report as well, so.
13 Q. Did you refer to any Neal or Lisa Kirby
14 interviews?
15 A. I didn't specifically refer to those
16 interviews, no, not when I was doing the report.
17 Q. Have you ever interviewed Susan Kirby?
18 A. No, I've not.
19 Q. Or Barbara Kirby?
20 A. No, have not.
21 Q. Did you ever attend a meeting at Marvel
22 attended by Jack Kirby?
23 A. No, I've never been in the Marvel offices.
24 Q. Have you ever been told about any story or
25 plotting conferences at Marvel?
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1 JOHN MORROW 40
2 later on.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. According to your report, I think you
5 became involved in the comic book industry in 1989?
6 A. No, 1994.
7 Q. Did you have any connection to the comic
8 book industry prior to 1994?
9 A. Well, my only connection was that I was a
10 comics fan, a comics collector, devoured fan magazines
11 and the Comics Journal, publications like that, really
12 enjoyed learning about comics history and reading about
13 it, that dates back all the way to probably 1969, 1970
14 when I got my first comic book.
15 So, but no, I didn't have any professional
16 connection to comics at all before 1994.
17 Q. And would it be fair to say that you have
18 been a lifelong fan of Jack Kirby?
19 A. Lifelong?
20 Q. Well, at least once you started reading
21 comics?
22 A. Well, no, not since I started. I actually
23 hated his work when I started reading comics. I was
24 about age 14 where I first developed an appreciation of
25 his work. Before that, I couldn't stand his art style.
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2 Q. And I know we covered this a little bit
3 generally, but I'd like to cover it more specifically,
4 what you were asked to cover specifically in your
5 report?
6 A. Well, the history of Timely and Marvel and
7 kind of the history work practices at the time. Jack
8 Kirby's history with the company dating all the way
9 back to what his first work for them with Joe Simon in,
10 what was it, 1939, 1940.
11 His -- Jack Kirby's career, how he left
12 Marvel, went to work for DC in the '40s, his work in
13 the '50s, how he ended up back at Marvel in the late
14 '50s and then the working relationship between he and
15 Stan Lee, as I understood it, in the '60s.
16 But, you know, a lot of the history of the
17 company and, you know, what I knew about Jack Kirby's
18 personal work habits, you know, where he worked, how he
19 worked, I guess that's pretty much --
20 Q. Now, what you know about Jack Kirby and his
21 work habits was not derived from personal observation
22 of Jack Kirby working, is that correct?
23 A. Correct. Well, I've seen his studio in
24 California, but that was after he had been deceased,
25 and that's not where he was working when he was doing
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2 the work in general.
3 Q. And so your knowledge of Jack Kirby's
4 working habits and how he worked during the period from
5 '58 to '63, which is the period relevant to this case,
6 is based on what you've read about Mr. Kirby?
8 A. A lot of it is based on what I've read
9 throughout the years. A lot of it is, I believe, I'm
10 sure I talked to Roz Kirby about that, about what it
11 was like living in New York and working in New York.
12 I know I've read -- Mark Evanier has
13 written several times about visiting Jack's studio and
14 what that was like.
15 I believe in the Neal Kirby interview, we
16 talked about that they called their dad's work space
17 the dungeon, I believe, because it was in the basement
18 of their New York home.
19 I do recall he painted a very graphic
20 picture of what it was like down there. I got a very
21 good sense of what it looked like. It was this room
22 with this one little basement window for light, which
23 is why they called it the dungeon.
24 But also I read a lot over the years about
25 how Kirby worked when he was working with Joe Simon as
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2 well. How they had shared their across-the-street
3 attic studios right after the war. They got, you know,
4 veteran housing and built houses and worked across the
5 street from each other, to the point Joe Simon even
6 told me they lived in different cities, because the
7 state was the dividing line, or different counties, I
8 guess, between the two houses. Just picked up a lot
9 over the years from various things I've read and
10 talking to different people.
11 Q. Did you ever talk to Joe Simon about Jack
12 Kirby and his work?
13 A. Yes, we have. I actually interviewed Joe
14 Simon for the Jack Kirby Collector.
15 Q. And did Mr. Simon describe the nature of
16 the working relationship between Jack Kirby and Marvel
17 during the 1958 to '63 period?
18 A. I don't believe so, because I don't believe
19 Simon and Kirby were particularly close at that point.
20 Their company had dissolved shortly before that, which
21 was the big reason Kirby ended up back in Marvel, and
22 that seems to be kind of a dead area in the
23 relationship. There's not been much written or said
24 about it.
25 Q. Did Neal Kirby ever tell you that he had
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2 does kind of show that Kirby was doing things
3 differently from everybody else.
4 Q. Have you ever heard that Fantastic Four
5 number one was the first issue that employed the more
6 Marvel method?
7 A. I've not heard that that was the first
8 issue, no.
9 Q. Am I correct though, you cannot testify
10 with any degree of certainty as to whether or not
11 Mr. Kirby was working from scripts at any time between
12 '58 and '63?
14 It's okay, you can answer it.
15 A. I can't say definitively, but there's
16 anecdotal evidence that he was working Marvel method
17 during that period.
18 Q. Exclusively?
19 A. Exclusively? I had never heard him say
20 that he was working from Larry Lieber's scripts, but
21 Mr. Lieber says he was providing scripts, so I guess
22 it's possible Mr. Lieber provided scripts and Mr. Kirby
23 just went on and did what he wanted anyway.
24 Q. Apart from that being possible, do you have
25 any direct knowledge to suggest that it didn't happen
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2 A. Oh, I probably spent seven, eight hours,
3 something like that, probably total.
4 Q. And do you recall approximately when you
5 began to actually write the report?
6 A. I don't recall the date. I think it was
7 about -- Mr. Toberoff told me we needed to have
8 something done in a couple of weeks, and so I didn't do
9 like, you know, eight hours altogether. There were a
10 couple of revisions on it, so, but, I mean, I think I
11 started about two weeks before we submitted it,
12 something like that.
13 Q. And did you input a draft on your own
14 computer?
15 A. No, the initial draft actually came from
16 Mr. Toberoff's office. We spoke over the phone. The
17 problem is I've not done one of these before, so I had
18 no idea like the format. I've never even seen one
19 before. So I asked for their assistance with that. We
20 kind of just sort of did an informal interview over the
21 phone. They'd ask me questions about things, and I
22 would give them my sense, and then they send over --
23 they typed up kind of an initial draft of it and sent
24 it over to me with the understanding that, you know,
25 this is just our run through on it, make any changes
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2 you want.
3 Once I had the basic, you know, format
4 there in a Word document, it was very easy to go in and
5 alter things, and I changed a considerable amount of
6 what they sent over.
7 Q. Do you recall over how long a period of
8 time it was between your receipt of that initial draft,
9 to the completion of the final report?
10 A. No, I remember I was very busy at the time,
11 and I think -- I'm going by memory here, but it seems
12 like it was about a two-week process. It may have been
13 a little more, a little less than that. But once I got
14 the draft, I think it was -- I spent about two days or
15 three days before I sent it back to them as my like
16 final version.
17 At that point, they looked it over, found a
18 couple of typos, things like that. Somebody from his
19 office called me up and said I think we got, you know,
20 couple of typos. You might want to consider fixing.
21 They told me I would go in, and they were, I'd change
22 them and send them back, you know, the final, final
23 draft.
24 Q. And how long prior to the delivery of that
25 initial draft that was prepared by Mr. Toberoff's
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2 was covered by Mark Evanier's report?
3 A. No, they didn't. I have absolutely -- I've
4 not seen Mark's report. I have had no knowledge of it
5 whatsoever. I did know that he and I were listed as
6 the two expert witnesses or expert reports or whatever,
7 but that's the extent of my knowledge of it.
8 Q. Did you use any reference materials in
9 preparing your report?
10 A. I did. I mean, I pulled out some books and
11 looked things up to try and get dates correct and
12 things like that.
13 Q. Do you recall what books you pulled out and
14 used?
15 A. I think several issues of Alter Ego
16 Magazine, issues of the Jack Kirby Collector,
17 particularly issue 41. We actually published a couple
18 of Mr. Kirby's contracts with Marvel and so I referred
19 back to those.
20 I know there was an article in Alter Ego
21 number 49 that Tom Lammers wrote about the history of
22 Timely and Atlas Comics and their whole problems with
23 their distributor.
24 Books, I believe I pulled out, Stan Lee's
25 Excelsior, his biography, and I referred to some of the
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2 materials that we've gotten from Stan Lee's archives
3 for a book we're doing on Stan.
4 Q. The we being TwoMorrows?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Your company?
7 A. Yes, Roy Thomas and Danny Fingeroth, who
8 did Write Now Magazine for us. They are coauthoring
9 that book.
10 Q. But you will be publishing?
11 A. Right, yes.
12 Q. You are not writing the book?
13 A. No, I'm not writing.
14 Q. And do you recall what materials from those
15 archives you looked at?
16 A. There were some interviews, transcripts of
17 radio interviews that Stan did in the '60s, some
18 newspaper clippings. One in particular I remember,
19 Stan was talking about the different way he works with
20 different artists, and he talked about he has a story
21 conference with Gene Colan over the phone. He would
22 put the phone up to his reel-to-reel tape recorder and
23 just let Stan talk. And then Gene would have the
24 recording of that to refer to after the fact.
25 So they didn't actually have a lot of give
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2 and take. When they worked, it was just Stan talking.
3 Whereas, he said, with Jack Kirby, it was an entirely
4 different thing. It might be by phone, it might be in
5 person, it might just be let's use Dr. Doom in the next
6 issue Jack, okay, and that might be the whole story
7 conference.
8 So let's see what else was in that batch?
9 I sent -- you should have a list of all the
10 research materials and stuff we have. I think there's
11 a pretty good list of material we got together for that
12 Stan Lee book.
13 Q. Right. But I'm trying to focus on what
14 materials you referred to in connection with the
15 preparation of the expert report from that list. I
16 assume you didn't look at all of it?
17 A. No. I looked at main issues of the Jack
18 Kirby Collector, if I got my facts straight, Alter Ego,
19 and then that Stan Lee interview. That was probably
20 most of it.
21 Q. Did you listen to the radio interview in
22 connection with the preparation of your report?
23 A. I don't actually have a copy of the audio
24 of that. All I've got is the written transcripts.
25 Mr. Fingeroth has copies of the audio.
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2 BY MR. FLEISCHER:
3 Q. I've placed before you what we've marked
4 for identification as Exhibit 4. It bears production
5 numbers JM131 through 144?
6 (The document referred to was marked
7 Plaintiff's Morrow Exhibit Number 4 for
8 identification.)
9 Q. Is the first page of the exhibit the e-mail
10 forwarding to you the first written draft of the report
11 that you are aware of and the other pages of the
12 exhibit, the attachment to that e-mail?
13 A. This looks like it, yes.
14 Q. Did you provide the substance of everything
15 set forth in this draft, which is part of Exhibit 4?
16 A. Everything?
17 Q. Yes.
18 A. No, did not. After our initial
19 discussions, they prepared this and sent this to me. I
20 was quite impressed actually with how well they did
21 with it. Then at that point, I took this and modified
22 it.
23 Q. Is there anything in this draft that you
24 did not provide to them in verbal terms prior to
25 receiving the draft?
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2 A. Well, we -- let's see, obviously the bio,
3 that was sent by e-mail. The introduction, let's see,
4 the introduction was just their summation of what they
5 told me this would be about. The qualifications are
6 based on the bio that I sent in.
7 The historical background, A, historical
8 background, most of that was provided by them. We had
9 some brief discussions on that.
10 Let's see, Jack Kirby and Marvel -- again,
11 most of that was provided by them. We had some brief
12 discussion on that, but most of that is from them.
13 Q. You are talking about the material on page
14 135?
15 A. Well, yeah, page four.
16 Q. Page four of the draft?
17 A. Yeah, the Jack Kirby Marvel background.
18 Q. Okay. And on page five, there's another
19 numbered section headed Kirby's working relationship
20 with Marvel. How much of that did you provide and how
21 much was there?
22 A. Well, we had a pretty good conversation
23 about this. You know, I'm not sure how much of it they
24 took verbatim from me, but, again, this is the draft
25 they sent me. So it was based on our conversation. I
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2 feel a lot more of this is what we talked about on the
3 phone, because most of the early historical stuff is
4 just a matter of record. This seems to have more of my
5 opinions in it at this stage.
6 So that section two would be, I'd say,
7 largely from our phone conversations, and section
8 three, right, they asked about if I knew anything on
9 the Hulk, and I didn't really have too much information
10 on that. So not much came forth on that.
11 Q. Is the material -- let's just take it
12 paragraph by paragraph, if you don't mind.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. Under the heading Jack Kirby's creations
15 and co-creations, how much of that paragraph was
16 provided -- was based on information you provided and
17 how much was provided in their initial draft to you?
18 A. Well, the first sentence sounds like it was
19 probably taken verbatim from something I said; as is
20 the second. Actually, it all sounds like it could have
21 been taken verbatim from me.
22 The second one under Fantastic Four, if
23 that's not all taken verbatim from me, it's
24 definitely -- that goes (sic) exactly my thoughts. So
25 it may well have all been taken from me.
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2 The incredible Hulk, they were just asking
3 for that.
4 Thor should have been basically from me.
5 Spider-man should be from me.
6 Sgt. Fury, I added quite a bit on that
7 after they sent this.
8 Number four --
9 Q. I think we can skip over four, because
10 that's part of the -- when they sent you the report,
11 did they indicate to you what they expected to be added
12 under the conclusion heading?
13 A. No, they just, as it says there, just to
14 recap everything.
15 Q. What did you understand your function to be
16 in completing the conclusion section here or recap?
17 A. Just to recap the main points, you know, as
18 far as just recap the main points of the history and
19 Kirby's working relationship, you know, what I
20 understood of work-for-hire. That's pretty much it, or
21 what I understood work-for-hire, how I felt it related
22 to this.
23 Q. And after receiving Exhibit 4, what did you
24 do with respect to the report then by way of completing
25 it?
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2 e-mail, just to make sure he knew it had been sent to
3 his assistant.
4 Q. Did Mr. Toberoff respond to this e-mail?
5 A. I don't believe so. Again, it's possible
6 there was an e-mail saying thanks, I got it or
7 whatever. But I don't believe I got a response back
8 from him.
9 Q. Do you recall any discussion about any
10 substantive changes to the report, other than the
11 correction of typos?
12 A. I don't recall right now, no.
13 Q. Let me direct your attention to page four
14 of the draft, that's part of Exhibit 5, which is your
15 signed version, and specifically the first sentence,
16 full sentence at the top of page four that begins:
17 Marvel required me to sign a work-for-hire agreement
18 for the various work I produced for them, and in the
19 course of this project, Marvel finally paid Jack
20 Kirby's estate $325 for the use of that unused Kirby
21 story Kirby drew in 1970. Actually, it doesn't just
22 begin, that's the whole sentence.
23 Did you have any discussion with someone
24 from Mr. Toberoff's office about that sentence?
25 A. You know, I took that out of the final one,
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2 because I thought it kind of wasn't pertinent, and then
3 you guys would think I'm some kind of expert on
4 work-for-hire, which I'm not. So that's why I took
5 that out.
6 Q. Did something prompt you to take it out?
7 A. No, just rereading back over it.
8 Q. So in a subsequent draft, this sentence was
9 modified or deleted?
10 A. I believe so. I don't have the -- I
11 thought this was the final version, but I guess it's
12 not.
13 Q. The last phrase of that sentence that I
14 just read, where it says Marvel finally paid Jack
15 Kirby's estate $325, what did you mean by finally
16 there?
17 A. Because he had not been paid for it when it
18 was originally drawn.
19 Q. And you know that how?
20 A. Because rejected work, all the historical
21 data shows rejected and redrawn work or rejected work
22 wasn't paid for, and that redrawn work wasn't like, you
23 know, paid again for.
24 Q. And what historical data are you referring
25 to to support that statement?
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2 Marvel paid for them, Jack wouldn't have had the
3 opportunity to throw them in the garbage. Marvel would
4 have done something with them.
5 Q. Am I correct that you don't have any
6 firsthand knowledge about whether or not Jack was paid
7 for the pages you're referring to in this sentence?
8 A. Well, by firsthand knowledge, was I there,
9 for instance? No, of course not. I was much too young
10 to be there. You know, I'm not privy to Marvel's
11 books, so, no, I can't say definitively that it was on
12 the books that he was paid.
13 I know when we did -- Marvel wanted to do a
14 book called Fantastic Four Lost, which was -- I
15 assembled an unused Fantastic Four story from various
16 collector's collections. They had scattered pieces of
17 this story that Marvel -- Jack had drawn in, I guess,
18 1969 but Marvel never published.
19 Marvel read my article in the Kirby
20 Collector and said oh, we should get that together and
21 finish it and publish it.
22 So when they contacted me about doing all
23 of that, I told them that, you know, unless there's
24 some reason to believe that they paid for that
25 originally that, you know, no, they're not going to get
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2 copyright to terminate because Marvel was -- its work
3 product Marvel was the author. Kirby is not the
4 author. Stan Lee is not the author. So, and that
5 seemed to be key to the case.
6 Q. Did you ever have discussion about the
7 issues in the case with anyone from Mr. Toberoff's
8 office?
9 A. I think I talked to Mr. Toberoff about the
10 intricacies of work-for-hire. I think he kind of sort
11 of explained those to me. I don't remember when that
12 discussion was. It was over the course of between our
13 first correspondence and this, but I couldn't tell you
14 exactly when.
15 Q. And prior to that discussion, did you ever
16 have an independent understanding of the legalities
17 associated with work-for-hire under the copyright laws?
18 A. In my layman's understanding, yeah. I
19 remember in the late '70s, it suddenly became a big
20 issue. I remember, you know, who Neal Adams is. There
21 was an issue about are the companies going to return
22 our original art to us or not. And our issue at the
23 time is well, if they don't return it, then they own
24 it, so they have to pay sales tax on it, and Neal Adams
25 was trumpeting that as a major reason why the companies
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2 contracts to kind of protect yourself in cases like
3 that.
4 So, yeah, I had at least a rudimentary
5 knowledge of what work-for-hire was about. I don't
6 think I know every detail by any means, but I got the
7 basics.
8 Q. What is your understanding of what
9 work-for-hire is, as you sit here today?
10 A. Well, in terms of just in general, or in
11 terms of this case?
12 Q. I mean, well, in general.
13 A. In general. Well, for it to be
14 work-for-hire, my understanding is that, like the
15 people you're dealing with, they have to have an
16 obligation to pay you, first of all, for the work
17 you're doing. It's not like -- I'm like -- I mean,
18 there has to be like a guarantee of payment for the
19 work you are going to do for them. It has to be kind
20 of agreed in advance. I know in a lot of instances,
21 there actually has to be a written document before work
22 begins saying this is work-for-hire agreement, both
23 parties understand that.
24 You know, for instance, I know
25 work-for-hire is a whole lot more clear and easy to
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2 were asked to provide are set forth in the second
3 paragraph of the introduction, preceded by the letters
4 A, B and C?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Were those the specific opinions that you
7 had in mind when you were talking with Mr. Williamson
8 and making the revisions to the draft report?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And with respect to your opinions
11 concerning Marvel's history before, during and after
12 the 1958 through 1963 time period, apart from what
13 you've described as reading interviews and materials
14 over the years and perhaps conducting some interviews,
15 is there any other basis that you had for offering
16 opinions concerning that history?
17 A. Well, what you mention encompasses a lot.
18 Just the sheer number of pages we published on comics
19 history since we started in 1994 is pretty extensive.
20 So I don't want to discount the value of
21 that, in my opinion for him. And just the number of
22 books I've read in that time period as well.
23 And before, I mean, the four-page list of
24 research materials I sent you is not all of the books
25 I've ever read on comics history. There's any number
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2 that I, you know, also sold or traded or donated or
3 whatever.
4 So, I mean, this has, you know, comics
5 history has been kind of in my life since I was
6 12-years old, so, I mean, I think that's sufficient to
7 form opinions, frankly.
8 Q. And with respect to your opinions
9 concerning the B element described here, which is the
10 business relationship between Jack Kirby and other
11 freelancers with Marvel during this period, is there
12 anything, other than what you just described and
13 described earlier, that you used as a basis for forming
14 opinions with regard to that relationship?
15 A. All my research materials, you know,
16 conversations I've had, convention panels I've
17 attended, where these creators were actually speaking
18 firsthand about it, but, yeah, I mean, I think we've
19 outlined where my research comes from.
20 Q. And with respect to the last of the three
21 described opinions, which is Jack Kirby's creation or
22 co-creation of many of Marvel's most famous characters
23 during the period, did you do anything other than,
24 again, what you've described previously?
25 A. I think that's pretty much the same. A lot
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2 of firsthand accounts by creators, a lot of interviews.
3 Q. Any firsthand accounts by creators
4 concerning people who were at story conferences between
5 Jack and Stan Lee?
6 A. Certainly. I think, wow, let's see, I
7 believe Flo Steinberg is mentioned, of course, she
8 wasn't actually in the conference, she was outside, as
9 the secretary, but could overhear things.
10 I believe Marie Severin has commented on
11 story conferences.
12 John Romita, of course, I think I
13 elaborated earlier the example where Stan was driving
14 him home, that's a good example.
15 Who else? Of course Mark Evanier hearing
16 the phone, one side of the phone conference from
17 Mr. Kirby's studio. I'm sure there's more. Those were
18 the ones that immediately come to mind.
19 Q. What information did you get from Flo
20 Steinberg about this subject?
21 A. Oh, I just recall, I can't give you a
22 specific right off the top of my head, but I remember
23 her speak or read of her speaking about -- you know,
24 Stan Lee was infamous for very enthsiastic story
25 conferences in his office. He would stand on the desk
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2 break.
3 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
4 11:55 a.m. This is the end of tape number
5 three. We are off record.
6 (Recess.)
7 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is
8 12:02 p.m. This is the beginning of tape
9 number four. We're back on the record.
10 BY MR. FLEISCHER:
11 Q. Am I correct in looking at your report that
12 the report contains both statements of fact and
13 statements of opinion?
14 A. To my knowledge, yes.
15 Q. And is there a way that I can distinguish
16 or the reader can distinguish what you are stating as a
17 matter of fact, from what you are stating as a matter
18 of opinion?
19 A. I'm not sure how to answer that. I'm
20 stating the facts, as I understand them. And I -- I
21 mean, it's, I understand my job with this report is to
22 give my opinions. But my opinions are based on the
23 facts, as I understand them.
24 So I don't know that the two are so
25 intertwined. I'm not quite sure how you would like a
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2 formula for saying okay, this is fact, this is opinion.
3 I don't really understand.
4 Q. In some places in your report, you say it
5 is my opinion that, or words to that effect, I assume?
6 A. Oh, right, if I say I believe that, that
7 would obviously be an opinion.
8 Q. I can assume -- let me just finish the
9 question.
10 A. Oh, I'm sorry.
11 Q. Am I safe in assuming that when you say it
12 is my opinion that, or words to that effect, that that
13 is an opinion, not a fact?
14 A. Yes, my opinion based on the facts that I
15 understand.
16 Q. And if you don't preface a conclusionary
17 statement with it is my opinion that, or words to that
18 effect, is there any way to know whether you are
19 stating something you believe is a matter of opinion or
20 is a matter of fact?
21 A. Well, I guess we'd have to take it line by
22 line, and you could say is that a fact or is that an
23 opinion? And if it's a fact, I can tell you what it's
24 based on. That we could do. But in terms of just
25 something so the casual reader can go oh, that's a fact
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2 or that's an opinion, I don't know that there's some
3 kind of system in place for someone to do that.
4 Q. So the reader, other than with respect to
5 statements prefaced by it is my opinion that, or
6 similar words, would have to ask you -- follow up and
7 ask you whether it's a statement of fact or opinion?
8 A. As with any document, certainly, yes.
9 Q. And am I correct that the statements that
10 appear in the report that purport to relate facts are
11 facts that you have derived from research as opposed to
12 personal observation, something you saw, something you
13 heard directly or something like that?
15 A. Yes. I mean, my report is based on
16 research and the opinions I've formed based on the
17 research.
18 Q. Is there any method by which the reader of
19 your report could test reliability of the conclusions
20 in your report?
21 A. I guess they could read the same research
22 materials I've read, and if they've read our -- the
23 publications we've put out over the last 17 years, I
24 think they could do a pretty decent job of going
25 through and seeing where I got my information and
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2 giving it validity, yes.
3 Q. So the only way you could test validity is
4 by reviewing, theoretically, everything you've
5 reviewed, and in your view, the reader of that material
6 would always come to the same conclusion that you came
7 to?
8 A. Well, I can't say always, because I can't
9 speak for other people and how their thought processes
10 work. I was asked to do an expert report based on my
11 knowledge that I gained over the years, so that's what
12 I did.
13 Q. Just in terms of methodology, if I wanted
14 to test reliability of a statement in your report, the
15 only way I could do that is by immersing myself in all
16 of the material you reviewed over the years and making
17 judgment?
19 A. You asked a way that you could validate
20 what I put in my report. That is one way. There are
21 probably other ways. Probably other people who have
22 read other research materials and read other interviews
23 could probably evaluate what I said as well. There may
24 be other ways. I don't really know how to answer that
25 question.
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2 Q. What I'm getting to is this, if you had
3 written a scientific paper, where you set forth, take a
4 wild example, the proof of Fermat's last theorem.
5 A. Whatever that is.
6 Q. Which is A to the end, plus B to the end
7 equals C to the end, has no whole number solution
8 greater than two, and you published that paper, the
9 scientific mathematical community would be in a
10 position to test that by looking at your calculations.
11 And I'm trying to get to is there any way the reader of
12 your report could apply some methodology to testing the
13 reliability of your conclusions?
14 A. A methodology to test reliability? By, I
15 assume, by reading the rest of the testimony in this
16 case, other people's depositions, that could, you know,
17 support or reject some of the things I say in my
18 opinions. But, again, I'm not -- I don't really know
19 how to answer that question.
20 Q. Let me direct your attention to page three
21 of your report, not the final report, that's the one --
22 Exhibit 9, and specifically to the sentence appears to
23 be the third sentence in the second full paragraph,
24 which I'll read for the record, "Prior to my 1996
25 article, the unused Fantastic Four story was unknown to
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2 for DC at the same time and summarily told them to
3 leave, and they went to work for DC comics. Then they
4 went to war.
5 Then Simon and Kirby worked for Harvey
6 Comics, Enterprise Comics and a lot of other companies
7 but not for Marvel.
8 Q. What was the relationship between Timely
9 and Kirby and Simon at the time Captain America was
10 being published?
11 A. I believe I put that in here. I don't know
12 where that is. Kirby was working for, I believe, Fox
13 Features at the time when he met Joe Simon. Simon took
14 an editor's job at Timely and worked on agreement with
15 Martin Goodman for Timely publishing Captain America,
16 and Simon and Kirby, I believe, would get 20 percent of
17 the profits, Simon would get 15 percent and Kirby would
18 get ten percent. Simon got the extra percentage
19 because he brokered the deal with Goodman. They
20 produced ten issues of Captain America there at Timely
21 before difficulties arose and they parted ways.
22 Q. Did Timely pay Jack Kirby for work he did
23 on Captain America, or did Joe Simon pay Jack Kirby, or
24 did someone else pay Jack Kirby?
25 A. I wasn't there and can't say for certainty.
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2 was just accumulating.
3 Q. Was that an assumption on your part or
4 based on specific information?
5 A. It's based on reading research in that time
6 period.
7 Q. Yet you use the phrase a closet full of
8 unused artwork. Doesn't that refer to just pencils?
9 A. Not in this case. I believe in this case,
10 it would refer to stories that were not published.
11 Q. To be more accurate, your report should
12 have said a closet full of finished stories?
13 A. Certainly, yes, that's fine.
14 Q. And you indicate in your report that
15 Mr. Goodman gave Stan Lee the job of firing the
16 employees, the staff of the company at that time?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. What is the basis for that?
19 A. Mr. Lee's own biography, various historical
20 articles written, interviews in Alter Ego. I remember
21 Alan Bellman particularly talking about that, that they
22 had like a little PA system, and you would be called
23 into the office and you would go oh, he's getting laid
24 off, he's getting laid off, and one day he heard his
25 name over the PA system and realized it was his turn.
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2 A. Well, you could say that it's possible any
3 number of their early successes were on spec. If Joe
4 Simon brought in Captain America and said let's make a
5 deal with this, does that follow your definition of on
6 spec.?
7 Q. Is it your understanding that Joe Simon
8 brought Captain America to Martin Goodman or that he
9 was working at the request of Martin Goodman on a
10 superhero character?
11 A. My understanding is that Joe Simon brought
12 it to Martin Goodman.
13 Q. How did you get that understanding?
14 A. From Joe Simon's biography and from Jack
15 Kirby confirming that in interviews.
16 Q. So let's put Captain America aside.
17 Any other instance in which you can think
18 of, any work published by Marvel up to 1963 was created
19 on spec.?
20 A. I'd have to do further research. Bill
21 Everett created the Submariner. I'm not, off the top
22 of my head, sure of the instances of how that ended up
23 at Timely. That was around the same time period as
24 Captain America.
25 The Human Torch, Carl Burgos is another
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2 drew some sample pages, brought them in and Stan said
3 no. He rejected probably because it was too close to
4 Archie Comics' Fly, and that's when Stan had Steve
5 Ditko come in.
6 Q. Are you saying that Jack brought the pages
7 without being given an assignment by Stan with respect
8 to Spider-Man?
9 A. No, I think Jack brought in the concept,
10 the idea to Stan as one that they had kind of kicked
11 around at Mainline for doing, and Stan said sure, let's
12 give it a try, and I don't know what level of input
13 Stan gave Jack at that point.
14 Q. Do you have an opinion with regard to
15 whether or not Jack Kirby was the sole creator of Sgt.
16 Fury and the Howling Commandos?
17 A. Well, I put in my report -- a quote that
18 really caught my attention when we interviewed John
19 Severin for the Jack Kirby Collector. On page 12 and
20 13 of my report, he talked about met over coffee with
21 Jack Kirby, and Jack at that point was trying to get
22 syndicated newspaper strips purchased to syndicates and
23 he had this idea that he pitched to John Severin to get
24 John to draw it, because John was very good at drawing
25 war comics, and -- well, the quote is in the report.
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2 You can read it. But that one was very interesting to
3 me. That's not an interview I actually conducted. Jim
4 Amash conducted that actually.
5 Q. So returning to my question, do you have an
6 opinion as to whether or not Jack Kirby was the sole
7 creator of Sgt. Fury and the Howling Commandos?
8 A. Well, you have to define sole creator. Do
9 I think Jack Kirby initiated the concept? Yes. That
10 right there makes me think that Jack Kirby initiated
11 the concept.
12 Did Stan Lee have input into the concept?
13 I would think as editor, certainly. It could have been
14 as simple as this is hypothetical. It could have been
15 as simple as Stan saying Jack, we need a war book, and
16 Jack said oh, I got this great idea I was kicking
17 around, and then he presented it, and maybe Stan added
18 some stuff, something like that.
19 It could have been that Jack walked in and
20 said Stan, here's an idea. If you want to use it, we
21 can do it. I, of course, wasn't there, so I don't
22 know. But this leads me to believe that Jack initiated
23 the concept outside of Marvel and through whatever
24 process it was brought in. I'm sure Stan had some
25 input into it. The question is how much?
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2 Q. Do you have any information to the effect
3 that Stan -- that Jack Kirby began drawing Sgt. Fury
4 and the Howling Commandos before getting an assignment
5 from Stan to do so?
6 A. No, not that he began drawing it, no.
7 Q. Had Stan Lee ever done war comics for
8 Marvel before Nick Fury?
9 A. Yes, he had.
10 Q. Was there something unique about Sgt. Fury
11 and this Howling Commandos and the war of comic genre?
12 A. Yes, there was.
13 Q. What was unique about it?
14 A. Sgt. Fury was, for me, the first war comic
15 I actually could read. I never enjoyed war comics.
16 There was something about the feel and the tone of it
17 and the level of action in it that I really enjoyed.
18 At that point, I had never discovered Kirby's earlier
19 war comics. But when I first saw Sgt. Fury, it was
20 like, okay, this is almost like superhero comics, which
21 I like, but done as a war comic. It had a lot of the
22 same trademarks that the superhero comics had.
23 Q. It was unique in the sense that you liked
24 it?
25 A. It was unique in the sense that it was
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2 lessen that Stan didn't add to it, but it's -- Jack --
3 Q. When you say it's a Jack Kirby creation --
4 MR. TOBEROFF: He was still talking,
5 he said but Jack.
6 BY MR. FLEISCHER:
7 Q. I thought you had finished your answer.
8 A. Well, just that it just screams that was a
9 Jack Kirby creation.
10 Q. Screams that to you?
11 A. To me, yes.
12 Q. That is your opinion?
13 A. That is my opinion, yes.
14 Q. Now, do you know whether Jack Kirby put
15 pencil to paper before discussing the Thor character or
16 the concept of a Thor book with Stan Lee?
17 A. No, do not.
18 Q. So when you say it's your conclusion that
19 it's the sole creation of Jack Kirby, you are saying it
20 was his idea?
21 A. That is my opinion, yes. The idea to take
22 Thor and use him as an ongoing superhero and cloak him
23 into Norse mythology would have been Jack's idea.
24 Q. But he wouldn't have drawn anything until
25 getting the go ahead of from Stan and having a story
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2 conference of some kind with Stan, is that correct?
3 MR. TOBEROFF: Assumes facts, lacks
4 foundation.
5 A. Again, I wasn't there in 1961 and '62 when
6 these books were being produced. I can give you my
7 opinion, if that's what you'd like.
8 My opinion is that Jack came to Stan Lee
9 and said hey, I got this idea for a superhero based on
10 Thor. And Stan would say something along the lines of
11 okay, we've got a dead magazine and a mystery with
12 nothing going on. Our superheros are starting to take
13 off. Let's do it. At that point, they would kick
14 around details of it. That's my opinion.
15 Q. Do you have an opinion with regard to who
16 is the creator of Ant Man?
17 A. He is such a lesser known character, I
18 don't think I actually included anything about Ant Man
19 in there. I have not heard or read much historical
20 data on Ant Man. What I do know about Ant Man is
21 that --
22 Q. Just try to restrict yourself to my
23 questions.
24 A. I'll say no, I have no opinion.
25 Q. I don't mean to cut you off, but we are
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2 Q. I think you indicated earlier, I just want
3 to make sure I'm clear for the record, is it your
4 understanding that Marvel had the right to make changes
5 in the work submitted by Kirby?
6 A. Well, that's generally the job of an editor
7 in any publishing house. The editor accepts the work
8 and they edit it.
9 Q. So the answer would be --
10 A. Would be yes. Yes.
11 Q. Do you know whether Jack Kirby ever
12 received any vacation pay from Marvel?
13 A. No, none that I'm aware of.
14 Q. Well, are you aware that he didn't receive
15 vacation pay?
16 A. My understanding is that he did not, and
17 that's why he produced so many pages at such a faster
18 rate than most of the other artists, so that he could
19 keep up with his family finances and be able to take a
20 little time off once in a while.
21 Q. Am I correct that you cannot testify from
22 firsthand knowledge that throughout Mr. Kirby's career
23 with Marvel, he never received any form of vacation
24 pay?
25 A. From firsthand knowledge, no, I cannot.
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2 So a lot of these were unpublished pages
3 that appeared in there.
4 So he had possession of those, Marvel
5 didn't, which leads me to believe he was not paid for
6 them or Marvel would have kept possession of them.
7 Q. So there is some relevance about who
8 retains the pages?
9 A. I think so, but, again, there's, you know,
10 a certain amount of fluidity to the working
11 relationship there, particularly in the early days of
12 Marvel, when everybody is trying to please everybody
13 else.
14 Q. Would I be correct again in saying that you
15 have no firsthand knowledge as to whether or not Jack
16 Kirby was paid for these pages?
17 A. No, I do not.
18 Q. The next one, the last one I'll ask you
19 about is the X-Men. Do you have any information about
20 this?
21 A. The X-Men one is interesting, because it
22 was actually inked by Chick Stone. So that leads me to
23 believe that that one may have been paid for, because
24 it got to the inking stage. It was actually inked and
25 lettered and had a logo put on it, and apparently at
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2 with the company for a while, who to this day is not
3 regarded as a particularly compelling artist.
4 Well, I correct that, Steve Ditko also
5 would be a very influential creator there, except that
6 his influence was largely on one or two strips.
7 Whereas Jack Kirby's influence was across the board.
8 But certainly Ditko, you can't discount his work on
9 Spider-Man, and to some extent, on Doctor Strange.
10 Q. What about John Romita?
11 A. Well, Romita didn't come in until Ditko
12 left Spider-Man, so we're talking what year was that?
13 Probably around '64, somewhere in there. He became
14 influential, but not at first.
15 At first, actually, the fans tended to
16 really dislike him, because he wasn't Ditko. It took
17 him a while to get the feel for the Marvel style, which
18 is why Stan had Jack do layouts for him.
19 Q. In your report on page 11, under the
20 heading of Fantastic Four, you describe some history,
21 as you understand it with regard to the publication by
22 Marvel of Fantastic Four number one, correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. There's nothing here that talks about the
25 actual circumstances, as you understand them, of the
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2 creation of Fantastic Four, is there? That is to say,
3 the interaction between Stan Lee and Jack Kirby?
4 A. Well, that in Origins of Marvel Comics, Lee
5 admits that he discussed Fantastic Four with Jack Kirby
6 before writing anything. I think that goes to that.
7 Q. Do you have any other information with
8 regard to the circumstances of the interaction between
9 Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, other than what was in Stan's
10 Marvel comic book?
11 A. Again, I'm sure there is more. This is off
12 the top of my head. I don't have anything now. You
13 know, if I put more time and think about it,
14 particularly into researching old interviews, I could
15 probably find something.
16 Q. Can you tell me what --
17 MR. TOBEROFF: What is this?
18 MR. FLEISCHER: Let me identify it for
19 the record.
21 Q. I've placed before you as Exhibit 14 a
22 two-page document. It has production numbers Marvel
23 14587 and 88.
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2 referred to a minute ago, comparing Kirby's Spider-Man
3 with Ditko's Spider-Man?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And do you agree that Kirby's Spider-Man
6 looks like the Simon Kirby Captain America character?
7 A. There are similarities certainly, but there
8 are similarities among most superhero costumes. It's
9 kind of that's just the way superheros are drawn. I
10 think the finished Spider-Man is obviously very
11 different from either of the other two.
12 Q. And in this document, there is a depiction
13 of The Fly, particularly on the second page on a couple
14 of covers, do you see those?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And would you agree that the look of The
17 Fly is substantially different than the look of
18 Spider-Man?
19 A. Yes, I would.
20 Q. I'd like to direct your attention again to
21 your report in Exhibit 9, the final version, and the
22 first sentence of your conclusion says, and I'm going
23 to quote it: "To recap, I believe that Kirby's work
24 for Marvel from 1958 to 1963 was not 'work for hire'".
25 I had understood you earlier to have
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2 eliminated a conclusion with regard to work-for-hire
3 because you didn't feel you were competent to opine
4 with respect to work-for-hire. Is there a reason --
5 A. Not in a legal. Not in a legal.
6 MR. TOBEROFF: Let him finish the
7 question and give me room to object.
8 BY MR. FLEISCHER:
9 Q. Is there a reason that you feel competent
10 to make the statement in the first sentence here?
11 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection, misstates
12 his prior testimony. You can answer.
13 A. Yes, from what my understanding, my
14 layman's understanding of work-for-hire, I feel
15 confident to make that statement.
16 Q. Is that an expert opinion?
17 A. Yes, that's my expert opinion.
18 Q. A minute ago you said it was a layman's
19 opinion.
20 A. My expert layman's opinion. Not my expert
21 legal opinion, but my expert layman's opinion. I, of
22 course, am not an attorney.
23 Q. Do you know whether there were any changes
24 in the concept of work-for-hire that occurred in the
25 mid-'70s applicable to works created after 1978?
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2 A. I've got a basic understanding of how the
3 copyright law changed, yes.
4 Q. And what's your understanding of how the
5 concept of work-for-hire under the copyright law
6 changed as a result of statutes that became effective
7 on January 1 of 1978?
8 MR. TOBEROFF: Objection, lacks
9 foundation, misstates the law. Go ahead.
10 A. Well, my understanding of the copyright law
11 change, I guess it was written in 1976 and enacted in
12 1978, defined work-for-hire is you have to have a
13 preexisting agreement between the person commissioning
14 the work, the person doing the work, usually in
15 writing.
16 That you had to -- it's not work-for-hire
17 if you are doing it at your own expense. That there's
18 not some financial guarantee of payment, it's not
19 work-for-hire.
20 You have to believe that -- both parties
21 have to believe that from the second of inception of
22 that work, that the employer owns that work, which I
23 don't believe was the case with this. And I'm sorry,
24 I'm blanking out on the others. But that's -- that in
25 a lot of cases freelance work is not work-for-hire, but
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2 there are cases where it is.
3 Q. I think the question was, what changed as a
4 result of the '78 -- the statute that became effective
5 on January 1, '78? I'm a little confused about your
6 answer.
7 Were you describing the elements of
8 work-for-hire in your answer, as you understood them
9 that changed in 1978, or were you talking more
10 generally?
11 A. I was talking more generally in terms of
12 why I made this statement, so.
13 Q. Well, do you know what changes occurred as
14 a result of the Copyright Act of 1976 that became
15 effective in 1978?
16 A. Right. I believe that you had to have an
17 actual signed contract for it to be considered a
18 work-for-hire. I'm sorry, I'm blanking out on that
19 one, so.
20 Q. Do you know what the elements of a
21 work-for-hire were under the preceding statute, which
22 was the Copyright Act of 1909 as amended?
23 A. No, I do not.
24 Q. Do you know which statute would have
25 applied to work created between 1958 and 1963?
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2 A. I would assume the one that was enacted
3 prior to the 1976 change.
4 Q. Do you know one way or the other?
5 A. Well, it makes sense, but, well, yes, it
6 would have to be the one that was before the 1976
7 change.
8 MR. TOBEROFF: Just word of caution
9 with regard to the word assume. Since you
10 are not supposed to speculate when you say
11 assume, I don't believe you are speculating,
12 but I would be careful with that word.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 Q. Is it your understanding that the concept
16 of work-for-hire is a legal concept?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And you, I think agree, you are not
19 qualified to offer a legal opinion, is that correct?
20 A. A legal opinion, correct.
21 Q. And in your conclusion on page 14 at the
22 bottom, you continue: Nor do I believe that Marvel
23 itself in this period viewed or understood such
24 freelance work to be made-for-hire, since there is no
25 evidence of Marvel having documentation to support it.
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2 work-for-hire. I don't think they had ever even heard
3 the term. If they had heard it, I don't think they
4 would have known what it meant.
5 Q. Did you ever see a copyright application
6 signed by Jack Kirby for Marvel for work published by
7 Marvel?
8 A. I don't believe so. Why would Kirby have
9 filed a copyright application if Marvel was filing the
10 copyright applications?
11 Q. Do you know if the copyright applications,
12 for example, for Captain America were filed by someone
13 in the legal department of Marvel or just some
14 editorial employee or other employee of Marvel at the
15 time?
16 A. Are you talking in 1939?
17 Q. 1940 or whenever Captain America was
18 started.
19 A. I have no idea. I've never seen those
20 papers.
21 Q. Do you think it would have been prudent for
22 you to review some copyright applications before
23 rendering the opinion you've offered here in your
24 report?
25 A. In retrospect, yeah, certainly. I didn't
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2 have access to those. But if I had, I certainly would
3 have reviewed them.
4 Q. Couldn't you have gotten copies of
5 copyright registrations from the copyright office?
6 A. I guess I could have gone through and
7 gotten copyright applications on every character Marvel
8 ever produced for this report, but that didn't seem to
9 be really in the scope of it.
10 Q. And in fact, you didn't attempt to obtain
11 any copyright applications?
13 Q. For any character or publication, right?
15 Q. In your understanding of the concept of
16 work-for-hire, can a work made-for-hire be a work
17 created by a freelancer?
18 A. Yes, there are instances where a freelancer
19 can work under work-for-hire, yes.
20 Q. Mr. Morrow, I placed before you what we've
21 marked for identification as Exhibit 17. It bears
22 production numbers JM225 through 227.
25 identification.)
JA1074
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Page 281
1 JOHN MORROW 281
2 After you had described something to that
3 effect, you were then asked, which I believe you were
4 intending to describe the 1909 Act, you were asked, do
5 you know the test of the 1909 Act? And I believe your
6 answer was no?
7 A. Yeah. What I just described would have
8 been the test under the 1909 Act.
9 So the 1976 Act added some requirements,
10 like getting a contract signed before work begins, like
11 if somebody wants to do a -- somebody is hired to do a
12 screenplay ahead of time, we'll pay you $10,000 for
13 this, we'll pay you 5,000 when you sign and 5,000 when
14 you deliver it. Even though he is a freelancer under
15 the 1978 version, that would be work-for-hire.
16 So that's a good instance of where a
17 freelancer could be work-for-hire under the '78 law.
18 So, yeah, I got confused with the
19 questioning on do I know the difference between the '78
20 and 1909? I think I have a decent understanding of the
21 difference.
22 MR. TOBEROFF: Okay.
23 FURTHER EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS
25 Q. Just some follow-up questions.
JA1075
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Page 282
1 JOHN MORROW 282
2 Did Mr. Toberoff help you in -- at a break
3 in triggering the testimony that you just gave?
4 A. During the break, he pointed out to me that
5 you got that wrong, and I knew I did, because he had
6 helped me understand the differences in copyright law
7 way back before I did my report over the phone, because
8 I had a lot of questions about what was work-for-hire
9 and what was not.
10 Q. So is your understanding of the content of
11 the copyright law and in particular the elements of
12 work-for-hire under that law, derived from your
13 discussions with Mr. Toberoff?
14 A. Well, partially, yeah, but also, I mean, we
15 had had freelance illustrators and designers that
16 worked for our ad agency sign work-for-hire contracts
17 for us, long before I was ever doing the Jack Kirby
18 Collector.
19 Before that I had a grasp of work-for-hire.
20 You know, Mr. Toberoff helped me understand really the
21 distinction with the new law versus the old.
22 Q. And did you ever read the work-for-hire
23 provisions of the new law and whatever provisions of
24 the old law --
25 A. Yeah, I actually went on line to the
JA1076
Case
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1 of 3

2049 Century Park East, Suite 3630
Tel: 310-246-3333
Fax: 310-246-3101
MToberoff@ipwla.com
Attorneys for Defendants Lisa R. Kirby, Barbara J.

Kirby, Neal L. Kirby and Susan M. Kirby


MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC. and Civil Action No. 10-141 (CM) (KF)
MVL RIGHTS, LLC,
NOTICE OF DEFENDANTS’
Plaintiffs, MOTION FOR SUMMARY
JUDGMENT
-against-
[Hon. Colleen McMahon]
NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN M. KIRBY, [ECF Case]
Defendants.

NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN M. KIRBY,
Counterclaimants,
-against-

MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC., MVL
RIGHTS, LLC, THE WALT DISNEY
COMPANY and DOES 1 through 10,
JA1077
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2 of 3
PLEASE TAKE NOTICE that upon the accompanying Memorandum of Law in
Support of Defendants’ Motion For Summary Judgment, the Declarations of Marc
Toberoff, Mark Evanier, John Morrow, and the exhibits annexed thereto; and on all prior
proceedings and matters of record in this case, defendants Lisa R. Kirby, Barbara J.
Kirby, Neal L. Kirby and Susan M. Kirby, shall move before the Honorable Colleen
McMahon, United States District Judge, in Courtroom 14C of the United States District
Court for the Southern District of New York, 500 Pearl Street, New York, New York,
10007, for an order pursuant to Rule 56 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure for
summary judgment as to the cause of action of plaintiffs’ complaint, and for such other
and further relief as this Court may deem just and proper.
Dated: February 25, 2011 Respectfully submitted,

/s/ Marc Toberoff
Marc Toberoff (MT 4862)
Attorneys for defendants
Lisa R. Kirby, Barbara J. Kirby, Neal L.
Kirby and Susan M. Kirby
1
JA1078
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CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE
The undersigned hereby certifies that the foregoing was served electronically by
the Court’s ECF system and by first class mail on those parties not registered for ECF
pursuant to the rules of this court.
Dated: February 25, 2011 TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.

/s/ Marc Toberoff
Attorneys for defendants
2
JA1079
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Filed 02/25/11 of 317
1 of 8

Tel: 310-246-3333
Fax: 310-246-3101
MToberoff@ipwla.com
Attorneys for Defendants Lisa R. Kirby, Barbara J.

Kirby, NealL. Kirby and Susan M. Kirby


MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC. and Civil Action No. 10-141 (CM) (KF)
MVL RIGHTS, LLC,
DECLARATION OF MARK
Plaintiffs, EVANIER IN SUPPORT OF
DEFENDANTS' MOTION FOR
-against- SUMMARY JUDGMENT
LISA R. KIRBY, BARBARA J. KIRBY, [Hon. Colleen McMahon]

NEAL L. KIRBY and SUSAN M. KIRBY,
[ECF Case]
Defendants.

NEALL. KIRBY and SUSAN M. KIRBY,
Counterclaimants,
-against-

MARVEL CHARACTERS, INC., MVL
RIGHTS, LLC, THE WALT DISNEY
COMPANY and DOES 1 through 10,
JA1080
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2 of 8
DECLARATION OF MARK EVANIER
I, Mark Evanier, declare as follows:
1. I have been involved in the comic book industry for more than thirty years
as a comic book writer, columnist and historian. I submit this declaration in support of
defendants' Motion for Summary Judgment. I have personal knowledge of the facts set
forth in this Declaration and my attached expert report and, if called as a witness, could
and would testify competently to such facts under oath.
2. I have been involved in the comic book industry for over forty years as a
writer, columnist and historian. My first sale as a professional writer came in 1969, when
I was 17 years old, and soon after I was hired by a Los Angeles-based firm that was
operating a licensed fan club for the Marvel properties, called Marvelmania, which
advertised in Marvel comics. The "club" was a means of merchandising items such as
posters and decals of the Marvel characters, and I was hired as the local firm's in-house
expert and as the editor of a fan magazine that Marvel authorized. Not long before I left
that position, Jack Kirby hired me in 1969 as an assistant to help him on some new comic
book projects he was producing for DC Comics. I assisted him with storylines, handled
research and co-authored the letter pages in his comic books and did a limited amount of
art production work.
3. While apprenticing under Kirby, I began working as a comic book writer
for The Walt Disney Company and also for Western Publishing ("Western"), which was
issuing comic books published under the Gold Key imprint (Bugs Bunny, DaffY Duck,
Porky, etc.). Shortly after that, I was hired as the editor and head writer for the Edgar
Rice Burroughs estate (Tarzan).
4. In 1974, I began writing for television. My comedy writing experience
includes working on The Nancy Walker Show, Cheers, That's Incredible, Love Boat,
Superboy, Pryor's Place, Bob (starring Bob Newhart as a comic book artist) and
Welcome Back, Kotter, where I worked as story editor. After leaving Welcome Back,
JA1081
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Kotter, I worked for and eventually ran the comic book division of Hanna-Barbera
Studios, as editor and head writer.
5. My animated series writing experience includes television shows such as
Scooby Doo, Plastic Man, Thundarr the Barbarian, The ABC Weekend Special, CBS
Storybreak, Richie Rich, The Wuzzles, Superman: The Animated Series, Dungeons &
Dragons and Garfield and Friends.
6. While I continue to work in film and television, I have also worked on a
number of comic books, including writing Superman Adventures, The New Gods and
Blackhawk for DC Comics. I was both the writer and the editor for Blackhawk. Since
1983, I have collaborated with artist Sergio Aragones on the long-running comic book
series, Groo the Wanderer, which has been published in the past by Pacific Comics,
Eclipse Comics, Marvel Comics and Image Comics, and which is currently published by
Dark Horse Comics. I have also written, co-created and sometimes edited several other
comic books series including The DNAgents (with Will Meugniot) and Crossfire (with
Dan Spiegle), both of which were published by Eclipse; Hollywood Superstars (with
Spiegle), which was published by Marvel; and Magnor (with Aragones), which was
published by Malibu Comics.
7. I have been nominated for three Emmy Awards for my work on Garfield
and Friends (two) and Pryor's Place (one). In 2003, I was awarded the Lifetime
Achievement Award in Animation Writing by the Animation Writers Caucus of the
Writers Guild of America, West (WGAw).
8. I have been a panelist or moderator at numerous comic book industry
events, including the Comic-Con International in San Diego, WonderCon in San
Francisco, the Big Apple Comic Convention in New York City, and the Mid-Ohio Con in
Columbus, Ohio. The Comic-Con International is the largest event of its kind in the
world, and each year I spend much of the convention in panels and events during which I
interview the comic book "greats" about their work. For my etTorts in recording and
2
JA1082
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Filed 02/25/11 of 317
4 of 8
preserving the history of the comic book art form, the convention awarded me the
prestigious Bob Clampett Humanitarian Award in 2001.
9. In addition, the convention administers the industry's top award, the Will
Eisner Award, which is given for excellence in the creation of comic books, and I have
been awarded four "Eisners" and have been nominated seven times. The other major
award in the comic book field is called the "Harvey" and I have been nominated three
times for this award and have won twice.
10. Furthermore, I am active as an author writing about comic books, having
published five books on the subject, including the recent Kirby: King of Comics, a
biography of Jack Kirby which won both the Eisner and Harvey awards, and Mad Art, a
history of Mad magazine, tracing its evolution from a comic book into a magazine and
other media.
11. I have been called upon to write numerous forewords and introductory
material for books about comics, including many reprint volumes published by DC
Comics and Marvel, and to appear on television programs and supplemental DVD
materials dealing with animation and comics. These include commentary for Marvel's
Maximum Fantastic Four, an analysis ofthe first issue of the Fantastic Four comic book,
and the foreword for the recent Marvel Masterworks: The Mighty Thor Vol. 6 (reprinting
past issues of The Mighty Thor) and Marvel Masterworks: The lnhuman'l.
12. At Marvel "Chairman Emeritus" Stan Lee's request, I appeared on the
episode of the TV series Biography (broadcast on the A&E Network and released on
home video), detailing his life and career. I was interviewed as well for the feature-
length documentary "With Great Power- The Stan Lee Story" and I have recently been
asked by its producer-director to review this documentary for factual accuracy and to
help correct factual errors. I also worked for Mr. Lee as the Vice-President of Creative
Affairs at Stan Lee Media, a firm he presided over for a time.
3
JA1083
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5 of 8
13. I have also acted as an informal advisor and historian for most of the
major comic book publishers, including DC, Marvel and Dark Horse. All these
publishers have called on me from time to time to help them establish facts about their
past publications and contributors. For example, I have been asked by staffers at Marvel
to identify who "inked" particular Marvel comic book issues, and to determine the
identity of pseudonymous contributors to various materials they have published in the
past.
14. Defendants retained me in this litigation to render an expert opinion about
issues in this case, including the manner in which Jack Kirby created or co-created
comics and comic book characters published by Marvel between 195 8-1 963, as well as
Kirby's relationship with Marvel during this key period. I also rendered an opinion
concerning Marvel's policies and conduct with respect to the return of original artwork to
artists, including Jack Kirby.
15. Attached hereto as "Exhibit A" is a true and correct copy of my expert
report submitted to plaintiffs on November 4, 2010.
16. Attached hereto as "Exhibit B" are true and correct copies of excerpts
from my book Kirby: King of Comics.
17. Attached hereto as "Exhibit C" is a true and correct copy of the "Jack
Kirby's Gods" portfolio that I helped Jack Kirby produce and distribute for sale both on a
mail-order basis and at comic conventions starting in 1972. The portfolio contained color
drawings of characters Kirby originally submitted to Marvel in the late 1960s for are-
imagined Thor comic book, which Marvel did not purchase. This is the second portfolio
that we produced. These portfolios were distributed by a company called
Communicators Unlimited that was founded by Kirby, his son Neal, Steve Sherman and
myself. The company also produced and published in 1971 a book entitled Kirby
Unleashed.
4
JA1084
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Filed 02/25/11 of 317
6 of 8
18. During the period 1958-1963, Kirby submitted and/or sold artwork to
many publishers, including DC Comics, Gilbertson, Western, Harvey, Archie and Prize
Comics. Kirby's work appeared in such publications as Adventure Comics ( 1958-1959),
Adventures of the Fly (1959); Alarming Tales (1958), The Double Life of Private Strong
(1959), Challengers of the Unknown (1958-1959), Young Romance (1958-1959), My
Greatest Adventure (1958-1960); Cracked (1960); Classics Illustrated (1961) and The
World Around Us (1961). Other freelance artists in the 1960's did this as well. Steve
Ditko drew Spider-Man for Marvel while also submitting and selling work to Charlton
Press. Vince Colletta simultaneously submitted work to Marvel, Charlton Press and Dell
Comics. Joe Sinnott did work for Marvel, Archie and Treasure Chest. Robert Bernstein,
who scripted issues of Iron Man, also submitted and sold work to DC Comics and
Archie.
19. Kirby also pitched artwork elsewhere that he had submitted for a Marvel
comic, but Marvel chose not to purchase. For instance, Kirby submitted to Marvel
artwork for a new version of Captain America in 1968 which Marvel did not purchase.
Kirby later used this artwork of the re-imagined Captain America as the template for a
character called Captain Glory, first published in Captain Glory, No. 1 by the Topps
Company in April 1993. The artwork Kirby had submitted to Marvel was used as the
cover of this first issue, without objection from Marvel.
20. While submitting artwork for the ''Tales of Asgard" feature in Marvel's
Thor comic book in 1968-69, Kirby developed a concept he initially dubbed the "Young
Gods." Soon after, Kirby drew presentation pieces of characters to flesh out that concept
and he presented this material to Marvel, which did not purchase it. That concept and
several of these characters were later used by Kirby in comics published by DC in 1971,
without objection trom Marvel: Orion, Metron and Lightray appeared tirst in DC's New
Gods No. 1 (February 1971).The Black Racer appeared first in New Gods No.3 (July
1971). Darkseid appeared first in DC's Superman's Pal. Jimmy Olsen No. 134. Mr.
5
JA1085
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Filed 02/25/11 of 317
7 of 8
Miracle appeared first in Mr. Miracle No. 1. True and correct copies of some of these
presentation pieces are attached hereto as "Exhibit D:'
I declare under penalty of pet:jury that to the best of my knowledge the foregoing
is true and correct.
Dated February 25, 2011

Mark Evanier
JA1086
Case
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Filed 02/25/11 of 317
8 of 8
The undersigned hereby certifies that the foregoing was served electronically by
the Court's ECF system and by first class mail on those parties not registered for ECF
pursuant to the rules of this court.
Dated: February 25, 2011 TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.

s/Marc Toberoff
By: --~--~~~~~~~~-------

Tel: 310-246-3333
Attorneys for defendants Lisa R. Kirby, Barbara J.

Kirby, NealL. Kirby and Susan M. Kirby
7
JA1087
The undersigned hereby certifies that the foregoing Special Appendix/ Joint
Appendix were served electronically by the Court’s ECF system and by priority
mail on those parties not registered for ECF pursuant to the rules of this court.
Pursuant to Local Rules 25.3 and 30.1, six paper copies of the Joint Appendix and
Special Appendix have been mailed to the Court on the date this brief was
electronically filed.
Dated: January 13, 2011 /s/ Marc Toberoff

Malibu, California Marc Toberoff (MT 4862)

Telephone: (310) 246-3333
Facsimile: (310) 246-3101
mtoberoff@ipwla.com

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Case 11-3333, Document 75, 01/26/2012, 509514, Page1 of 317

CASE NO. 11-3333

Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME IV OF X

TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.

CASE NO. 11-3333

Marvel Characters, Incorporated, Marvel Worldwide, Incorporated,

APPELLANTS’ JOINT APPENDIX, VOLUME IV OF X

TOBEROFF & ASSOCIATES, P.C.

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