And I want to keep going on with this, this new case study we have going of Sagalassos or we agreed to call it Saga, I think. [LAUGH] And for unit three and, you know, how do we find things? I just thought we could ask Elizabeth, you know, how, you know, how they found things at Saga. And then it sort of seemed like maybe that wasn't the best or the, the brightest question. Because it sort of sounds like there was this city that basically kind of got abandoned, and no one ever really lived on top of, of it again. And so, maybe bits of it were covered over with, you know, erosional sediments. But on the whole, it was kind of there to, it was kind of there. >> It was kind of there, yeah. There was a lot of actually standing mon-, monumental architecture still on the surface. >> Mm. >> At the time in which the currents direct-, direction of the team, today, when he went through and he was on a large survey project, actually, >> Mm-hm, >> And they were visiting known sites in the area, and he came across this, and it was, it was known by the locals, obviously, >> Mm-hm. >> And there had been some earlier, kind of, European explorer types. >> Uh-huh, uh-huh. >> Who had, who had also documented it. But there was full-standing architecture still available at the second one when they first started. There were standing walls and things like that. >> And that's about, how long ago when it first started, 20, 25? >> yeah, yeah, it's been going on for almost, well, 25 five years now already. So yeah, so it's, it's been a long, long-term project And so, so, it was well known that there was a site there. >> It's a, yeah, we've talked a bit about that. The idea that Pompeii was buried, but that there seems to have been some later awareness of something there. And then, every now and then, there are monuments, like, I think we talked a bit about the Lion Gate of Mycenae that never, never really disappears. So, there we got Saga the city. But clearly you guys didn't just, you're not just doing the monumental architecture. So, I was wondering if we could just run, you know, we've sort of been talking about a range of ways to find things. So satellite imagery? Aerial imagery? Did you guys use that? >> Yeah, definitely. We've used aerial imagery across the sites. Because the site is located on essentially the side of the mountain. You can actually understand a lot about its topography by looking down at it, you can see some, some features in the surface as well from the air. And a variety of other techniques have been used including well, surface survey across the area. >> Okay, on the city itself, or around the city? >> To see the extent of the city, yeah, both. >> Both? Okay. >> And we've also used well a lot of geophysical studies as well, which have been particularly successful in the area where I've been working in the Potter's Quarter because the kilns are, are very visible. >> Yeah. They must pop. You know, what, what, what ground penetrating radar, magnetometry? >> Magnetometry is the best for finding kilns. >> Actually that's true. >> So those pop out very nicely. So, using magnetometry results, but using the combination of the different techniques, you can see things like roads. You can see things like buildings and the extensive buildings. >> Sweet, yeah. >> And so that was very, very effective in understanding kind of how far the city actually extended into the suburban areas around it. >> Mm-hm. >> Yeah, I think with ancient cities we often think of, you know, that, you know, there's kind of a city and then a countryside. And actually one of the cool things about Saga is that it did have suburbs it seems, a suburbia. For example the Potters Quarter that Elizabeth has mentioned a couple times now. So you had aerial, you had remote sensing, you had survey, and of course. >> Excavation. Yeah. The originally, in at least in the area where I worked, they did these series of what are called sun dodges. Which are usually small kind of excavations that are limited in scope to try to understand. Yeah, the really kind of a. >> What, like one foot by one foot kind of thing? sort of little bit bigger than that? >> About a meter by a meter. >> Meter by a meter, okay. >> And so, sun dodge is going in to see what the, what type of material is available in those areas. What the chronology is. >> Right. >> For, for different segments of the site. And then larger scale excavations were directed looking at both the geophysical results and also the sun dodges. >> Oh, that's interesting. So the, so the sun dodges were sort of ground truthing some of the geophysical results. And then the sun, then the, the sun dodges ground truth the geophysical and then they excavate, the larger excavations ground truth the sun dodges. >> Mm-hm. >> Yeah, oh boy. That's wonderful when you can layer things like this. In some countries it's very hard to get permits to, to, to do that kind of multiple technique. So if you survey, you can't do anything else or if you dig, you can't do everything else. And it, there really is a pleasure to, the sense of layering, I think. You know? So, so you've seen it from soup to nuts or from bird's eye view to? >> [LAUGH] Yeah. To down, yeah. Down to the really the natural sterile, sterile soils. And that's another area actually that we've that the project has developed rather nicely. Is the understanding the soils and the natural geomorphology, what's called geomorphology which is understanding kind of the natural geological soil processes across the area. >> Mm-hm, yeah. >> And so, for example, because there's so much industrial activity there's also some natural clay beds in the area too. Which are probably, it's probably part of the reason that, that it was established for ceramics production in the first place. >> I was going to say, I wondered if, that's, there's a reason why the Saga is famous for its, its pots, yeah. Yeah, we've talking about geology and working with geologists. And it helps you to understand now, you know, why the city might have been put there or why certain activities evolved there. But also, I imagine how the, how the shape of the city, the morphology of the city has changed depending on what's going on in the surrounding environment.