Analysis of MKULTRA, 1977 Joint Hearing (Part 14)

by Dr. Jeffrey Russell, PhD

[Second Round of Questions of Admiral Turner by Senator Wallop and Kennedy—some

paraphrasing and redacting by author]

Wallop: So, you are not really saying there are no mind-altering drugs or behavior modification
procedures which have been used by foreign powers?
Turner: No, sir. I am not.
Wallop: But surely there are relaxants that loosen up tongues, isn’t that true?
Turner: Yes.
Wallop: I think it is fair to say that many American prisoners of war in the Korean conflict would
indicate there are behavior modification procedures in use by foreign powers of an advanced
degree of sophistication.
Turner: Yes, sir.
Wallop: Again, I think this must have been part of the motivation for MKULTRA. You
mentioned Cardinal Mindszenty in particular since you thought his behavior was abnormal. I
think the project was a response to perceived threats at that time and I hope we can avoid future
incidents of this kind. Thank you.
Kennedy: I just want to revisit the use of the two safehouses on the East and West coast as
sources for the unwitting trials. Since they were in use for a period of 8 or 9 years, the numbers
could have been considerable. The relevant financial transactions would indicate a considerable
amount of activity there. It is important to find out what the Agency is doing to get to the bottom
of this. Mr. Gottlieb [Note: Sidney Gottlieb, bio available on Wikipedia] was the overall agent
and has claimed a fuzzy memory about the whole area. Then, the Director had claimed the
material was destroyed and that he was unfamiliar with the project. Now, you have indicated
today there are two additional agents involved who monitored and approved the various
subprojects. Do you intend to interview these two people? And shouldn’t the project manager
know what is being done?
Turner: Our first problem is that we have been unable to associate an individual with those
names at this point. We are still trying to find out who these people are. They were not CIA
employees and they might have been false names.
Kennedy: You are tracking that down?
Turner: Yes, sir.
Kennedy: And you have every intention of finding out as much as you can?
Turner: My only hesitation is whether I will do this or the DOJ.
Kennedy: But it will be pursued. Correct?
Turner: Yes, sir.
Kennedy: Is it plausible that the director of the program would not know about the details of the
program? Is it possible that Dr. Gottlieb would not be familiar with the full range of activities in
those safehouses?
Turner: Let me say it is unlikely.
Kennedy: Has anyone in the Agency talked with Dr. Gottlieb?
Turner: Not since his participation has been revealed.
Kennedy: Well, why not?
Turner: He has left our employ, Senator.
Kennedy: Does that means that anyone who leaves is covered for life?
Turner: No, sir.
Kennedy: Why wouldn’t you talk with him and find out? This knowledge is of paramount
interest to everyone, why wouldn’t you talk to him?
Turner: Well again, it is a question of whether we should do it or the DOJ.
Kennedy: Well, we are wrestling around with this because you and the AG can’t agree—
Turner: No, sir.
Kennedy: On who ought to do it?
Turner: I have a concern about the CIA running around the country finding and interviewing all
of these people—I don’t want to give the impression we are doing domestic intelligence.
Kennedy: I am just talking about one person here. That was the man who was responsible for the
whole program. I want to know if anyone else in the CIA has talked or knows about this man
since he left the Agency. And if not, I want to know why.
Turner: We were concerned by trying to interview him ourselves because some people would say
we were influencing his testimony. If the committee has no objections, we would be happy to
interview Dr. Gottlieb.
Kennedy: Well, you see Admiral Turner, you come to the committees this morning and say we
have all the information and that there is nothing to be concerned about in the future. I don’t
know how you can possibly give those assurances when you haven’t even spoken with the
involved principal person who was running the whole Project, especially in light of all the
evidence being destroyed in 1973.
Turner: Our only concern is the proprieties involved, and we will dig into this with the assistance
of the DOJ.
Kennedy: Well, do I understand that you have not contacted the DOJ about this particular case?
Turner: Not about Dr. Gottlieb in particular.
Kennedy: Well, it is amazing to me. A whole series of material is on the front page of every
newspaper and every single document has Mr. Gottlieb’s name on it. Then, you come and tell us
we don’t have to worry any more because we have all the facts—and Mr. Gottlieb has not even
been talked to?
Turner: Sir, I am not saying that these are the final facts, only that these are all we have
available.
Kennedy: And you have not even talked to the person that was in charge of the program, so what
is it worth?
Turner: We are happy to talk to him. The issue is how to go about it. We cannot say that Mr.
Gottlieb even has any new information to offer us.
Kennedy: The importance is that he would know what kind of drugs were administered, along
with the volume and the methods. This information would allow you to follow up to protect
these people’s health who were the subjects. Will you give us some assurance that you will
speak with Mr. Gottlieb?
Turner: Yes, sir.
Kennedy: And let us know the extent of it. This is especially important since the bulk of the
material has been destroyed. These other two agents, has anyone talked to them?
Turner: We don’t know their identities, sir.
Kennedy: The Agency is tracking them down?
Turner: Yes, sir.
Kennedy: And when you locate them, they will be talked to?
Turner: Yes, sir.
Kennedy: And you have people working on it?
Turner: Yes, sir.
Kennedy: With regards to the safehouses, I understand that two-way mirrors were used. Is that
right?
Turner: Yes, sir.
Kennedy: And they were placed in the bedroom, as I understand it.
Turner: I think that was in the Church records.
Kennedy: The safehouse in San Francisco had elaborate decorations and a lot of receipts for
$100 cash was found in the records. Even the names were redacted of who received the cash.
Can you tell us what techniques the Agency was using? Do you know what might have been
going on?
Turner: No, sir.
[Laughter from everyone]
Kennedy: There is also a serious side to all this. What were the drugs used, the techniques, the
number of people, cash payments, etc. One thing is for sure, and that is Gottlieb knows because
he signed all these documents. So, we will hear more about that.
Turner: But Gottlieb has been interviewed by the Congress.
Kennedy: That’s right, and it was not very satisfactory. With all of the new data and records, his
brain may be stimulated on that. Thank you.

[End of Senator Kennedy’s second round of questioning]