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at Lucas' vs. to Lucas's

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Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés Preguntas sobre conjugaciones verbales,

tiempos gramaticales, adverbios, preposiciones y más.
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#1
Old 22nd July 2008, 09:30 PM

Join Date: Apr 2006

Aylee Native language: Spain, Spanish
Member Posts: 47

at Lucas' vs. to Lucas's

I've been doing an English test and one of the questions is the following:

¿Where have you been? I've been _________.

a) At Lucas's.
b) To Lucas'.

I have a doubt with At/To. You normally use "at" when you're at someone's house, but i don't
know if Lucas has to have the aditional "s" after the apostrophe, so i don't know the right
answer.

Can you help me? Thank you very much.

#2
Old 22nd July 2008, 09:47 PM

Join Date: Oct 2007

Native language: USA English
FromPA Posts: 3,259
Senior Member

Re: I have been at/to

I think you could use either "at" or "to", but the possessive should be Lucas', so I would say
the answer should be b.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=5429824&highlight= 22/06/2011
at Lucas' vs. to Lucas's - WordReference Forums Página 2 de 9

#3
Old 23rd July 2008, 12:14 AM

Join Date: Mar 2008

Location: São Paulo- Brasil
Katuka Native language: Español - Chile
Senior Member Age: 38
Posts: 254

Re: I have been at/to

When I did an English course (communicational - Pimsleur) I learned "to":

I've never been to Boston.
Can I use both?
Thanks,

Katty

#4
Old 23rd July 2008, 12:45 AM

Join Date: Oct 2007

Native language: USA English
FromPA Posts: 3,259
Senior Member

Re: I have been at/to

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katuka

When I did an English course (communicational - Pimsleur) I learned "to":
I've never been to Boston.
Can I use both?
Thanks,

Katty

What a can of worms! In your example, "at" would definitely be wrong, but I'm having trouble
defining the distinction. In the initial question, Where have you been?, the question being
asked is "where were you just prior to our meeting?", or "what was your location just prior to
our meeting?". "I was at Lucas' house" is a possible answer, meaning "I was located at Lucas'
house." You could also say, "I went to Lucas' house," which seems to place more emphasis on
the process of going to Lucas' house than on actually being at Lucas' house. When you turn it
around and say "I've been to/at Lucas' house", I think "to" sounds better, but I still think that
both are OK.

When you say "I've never been to Boston" (in some regions you might hear "I've never been
in Boston), it means "I have never spent time in Boston." The emphasis is on the experience
of being in Boston and not on pinpointing your physical location, so "at" doesn't apply.

I hope this makes some sense to you.

#5
Old 23rd July 2008, 01:22 AM

Join Date: Apr 2006

Aylee Native language: Spain, Spanish

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Member Posts: 47

Re: I have been at/to

Alright then, i'll take the second option then.

Thank you all!

#6
Old 23rd July 2008, 03:55 AM

Join Date: Apr 2008

Tazzler Location: Maryland
Senior Member Native language: American English
Posts: 3,572

Re: I have been at/to

I would say both are correct.

"Hey, Mark! Where have you been? I've been looking for you all day!"
"Oh, hey. I've been at Lucas's/I've been at home/I've been at the store/I've been at the
school."

"Have you been to your friends' houses?

"Oh, yes, many times."
"Where have you been?"
"Well, I've been to Lucas's , as well as John's and Zach's."

#7
Old 23rd July 2008, 09:31 AM

Join Date: Jun 2006

Location: Derby, England
sound shift Native language: English - England
Senior Member Age: 55
Posts: 14,478

Re: I have been at/to

If I had been at Lucas's and someone asked me "Where have you been?", I think I would reply
"I've been at Lucas's".

#8
Old 23rd July 2008, 11:10 AM

Join Date: Apr 2006

Aylee Native language: Spain, Spanish
Member Posts: 47

Re: I have been at/to

Then Lucas's is alright? I've read that when it comes to English names (ending with an "s"),
such as James, the genitive is James's, however, if the name isn't English, there's no aditional
"s" (Demetrius -> Demetrius' house).

Is that true?

#9

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Old 23rd July 2008, 11:13 AM

Join Date: Feb 2008

jackaustralia Native language: Australia English
Senior Member Posts: 3,136

Re: I have been at/to

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aylee

Then Lucas's is alright? I've read that when it comes to English names (ending with an
"s"), such as James, the genitive is James's, however, if the name isn't English,
there's no aditional "s" (Demetrius -> Demetrius' house).

Is that true?

You are completely correct. Lucas's is not grammatically correct. As has already been
discussed they both can be used in different contexts.

#10
Old 23rd July 2008, 11:25 AM

Join Date: Apr 2006

Aylee Native language: Spain, Spanish
Member Posts: 47

Re: I have been at/to

That's what made me doubt, thank you =)

#11
Old 23rd July 2008, 11:28 AM

Join Date: Jun 2006

Location: Derby, England
sound shift Native language: English - England
Senior Member Age: 55
Posts: 14,478

Re: I have been at/to

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackaustralia

You are completely correct. Lucas's is not grammatically correct.

According to which/whose grammar? If I can say "I've been at John's" I don't see why I can't
say "I've been at Lucas's", especially since "I've been at Lucas'" sounds the same as "I've
been at Lucas".

#12
Old 23rd July 2008, 11:35 AM

Join Date: Jul 2008

hellofolks Native language: Portuguese-Brazil
Junior Member Posts: 27

Re: I have been at/to

Hello, folks,

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=5429824&highlight= 22/06/2011
at Lucas' vs. to Lucas's - WordReference Forums Página 5 de 9

One tricky thing about grammar is that it's full of exceptions. For example, grammar says that
prepositions "in", "on", "at", among others, must be used for locating things while "to",
"from", etc. are to be used to indicate movement or motion. So you CANNOT say, for
example, "I'm to London" because you're giving a location, and not the destination or origin of
a movement. What you have to say is "I'm in London".

The rule to distinguish between "in", "on", "at" is the following:

in--->name of a city, state, province, region, country, etc.; inside buildings, places in general.

on--->name of a street, avenue, boulevard, square, etc.

at--->full adress or specific places.

Examples:

I prefer to live in New York.

I've got a house on Main Street.

You can find me at 45, Fifth Avenue.

There are cases, however, in which more than of these is correct. For instance,

Sarah's at/in the theater.

This is because "the theater" may be regarded both as a specific place or a building inside
which Sarah is.

Don't replace these prepositions by "to", for they show location, not destination.

Anyway, as I said before, there's an exception to this rule. When you use verb "to be" in
present or past perfect tenses, you must always use "to", even if normally you'd have "in",
"on" or "at". Examples:

I've already been to New York.

I've never been to Main Street.

I wish I had ever been to 45, Fifth Avenue.

Now, coming back to your question, the right alternative is (b) because of what I've just
mentioned above. And don't worry about Lucas's or Lucas'. Both forms are standard. The only
recommendation here is that if you pronounce "Lucases", you should write "Lucas's" and if you
pronounce "Lucas" you'd better choose "Lucas'"

I hope I've been helpful.

See you!

#13
Old 23rd July 2008, 01:49 PM

Join Date: Jun 2007

duncandhu Location: Madrid, Spain
Senior Member Native language: United Kingdom, English
Posts: 847

Re: I have been at/to

Quote:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=5429824&highlight= 22/06/2011
at Lucas' vs. to Lucas's - WordReference Forums Página 6 de 9

Originally Posted by jackaustralia

You are completely correct. Lucas's is not grammatically correct. As has already been
discussed they both can be used in different contexts.

I have to say that I'm pretty sure that it doesn't matter if the name is English or Foreign. If
the name ends in "s" then you shouldn't put the "s" after the apostrophe.

e.g.

James' house --> Correct

James's house --> "Incorrect" (although still widely used)

NB Both of these are still pronounced "Jameses" (otherwise there would be no way of telling
that it is the genitive when hearing it)

Saludos
Duncan

#14
Old 23rd July 2008, 04:48 PM

Join Date: Jan 2008

lasraschen Native language: English
Member Posts: 53

Re: I have been at/to

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aylee

I've been doing an English test and one of the questions is the following:

¿Where have you been? I've been _________.

a) At Lucas's.
b) To Lucas'.

I have a doubt with At/To. You normally use "at" when you're at someone's house, but
i don't know if Lucas has to have the aditional "s" after the apostrophe, so i don't
know the right answer.

Can you help me? Thank you very much.

About the additional "s," you don't need it and to use it would be incorrect. Any time a word
ends in "s" and you need to use the 's to mark possession, you just simply add an apostrophe
to the end.

e.g. The girl's puppy (girl= singular)

The girls' puppy (girls= plural)

e.g. Jonas' puppy (Jonas is the name of the boy)

Jonah's puppy (Jonah is the name of the boy)

Hope this helps!

#15
Old 23rd July 2008, 04:56 PM

Join Date: Jul 2008

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Native language: English - England (Leeds)

jo269 Posts: 26
Junior Member

Re: I have been at/to

Quote:

Originally Posted by lasraschen

About the additional "s," you don't need it and to use it would be incorrect.

I agree that you don't need the extra s - it is redundant. However, it is not incorrect to use it.

I was always taught that either of the following is a correct way to use a plural:

Jonas' cat
Jonas's cat.

#16
Old 23rd July 2008, 05:01 PM

Join Date: Jan 2008

lasraschen Native language: English
Member Posts: 53

Re: I have been at/to

Wow! I had no idea it was "correct" to use the extra s. I just googled and here's what I
found:

Hits for girls's: 238,000

Hits for girls': 688,000,000

Apparently, it is much less common to use the extra s. Thanks for sharing!

#17
Old 23rd July 2008, 05:07 PM

Join Date: Jul 2008

jo269 Native language: English - England (Leeds)
Junior Member Posts: 26

Re: I have been at/to

Well, frequency does not equate to correctness.

The extra "s" is redundant, hence why it is infrequently used. However, that does not mean it
is incorrect to use it.

Even if 238,000 hits is significantly less than 688,000,000, it's still a lot of hits!

#18
Old 23rd July 2008, 05:17 PM

Join Date: Mar 2008

Location: São Paulo- Brasil
Katuka Native language: Español - Chile
Senior Member Age: 38
Posts: 254

Re: I have been at/to

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?p=5429824&highlight= 22/06/2011
at Lucas' vs. to Lucas's - WordReference Forums Página 8 de 9

Quote:

Originally Posted by FromPA

What a can of worms! In your example, "at" would definitely be wrong, but I'm having
trouble defining the distinction. In the initial question, Where have you been?, the
question being asked is "where were you just prior to our meeting?", or "what was
your location just prior to our meeting?". "I was at Lucas' house" is a possible answer,
meaning "I was located at Lucas' house." You could also say, "I went to Lucas' house,"
which seems to place more emphasis on the process of going to Lucas' house than on
actually being at Lucas' house. When you turn it around and say "I've been to/at
Lucas' house", I think "to" sounds better, but I still think that both are OK.

When you say "I've never been to Boston" (in some regions you might hear "I've
never been in Boston), it means "I have never spent time in Boston." The emphasis is
on the experience of being in Boston and not on pinpointing your physical location, so
"at" doesn't apply.

I hope this makes some sense to you.

You're lucky by not have seen my face when reading your post.
Do you know when it seems that we are in front of hieroglyphics? That's what I felt, but finally
I understood (I guess..)

I appreciate if you correct my mistakes.

Thank you!
Katty

#19
Old 23rd July 2008, 05:33 PM

Join Date: Jan 2008

lasraschen Native language: English
Member Posts: 53

Re: I have been at/to

Quote:

Originally Posted by duncandhu

I have to say that I'm pretty sure that it doesn't matter if the name is English or
Foreign. If the name ends in "s" then you shouldn't put the "s" after the apostrophe.

e.g.

James' house --> Correct

James's house --> "Incorrect" (although still widely used)

NB Both of these are still pronounced "Jameses" (otherwise there would be no way of
telling that it is the genitive when hearing it)

Saludos
Duncan

I'd have to agree with Duncan here. Just because people use it, doesn't mean it's "correct."
But then again, just because it's not used as frequently doesn't mean it's "incorrect." Does
anyone have any references to cite on this issue?

#20

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Old 23rd July 2008, 06:38 PM

Join Date: Jun 2006

Location: Derby, England
sound shift Native language: English - England
Senior Member Age: 55
Posts: 14,478

Re: I have been at/to

Quote:

Originally Posted by lasraschen

Wow! I had no idea it was "correct" to use the extra s. I just googled and here's what
I found:

Hits for girls's: 238,000

Hits for girls': 688,000,000

Apparently, it is much less common to use the extra s. Thanks for sharing!

That's a different matter, because girl is not a proper noun, whereas Lucas is.

I would never say "girls's", only "girls'", but I see nothing wrong with "Lucas's".

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