10/28/2017 [SOLVED] Slow start 220V single phase induction motor

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Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
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KlausST (57), FvM (57), betwixt (45), c_mitra (22),
dick_freebird (18) 9th June 2011, 09:36 #1

elflop
Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Welcome to EDABoard.com Newbie level 4
I have a table saw which is driven by a 1.5HP single phase
220V induction motor. There are 2 capacitors in the motor's
Join Date: Jun 2011 electrical connection box.
Posts: 6 The motor drives the saw by a flat belt. The belt is 60 cm (2
Helped: 0/0 foot) long and 2.5 cm (1 inch) wide.
Points: 299 I had to replace the original motor.
Level: 3 The new motor starts so quickly that the belt is immediately
ejected from the flat pully. The old motor started nice and
slowly and took about 5 seconds to reach maximum speed.
I can't use any parts from the old motor.

I have made some experiments with an antique variac and

have found that if I turn on the saw with about 115 volt it
starts nice and slow. Because the variac became quite warm
and smelly, I replaced it with an old movie transformer
(220V -> 115V). This also works very nicely indeed but is
much too large and heavy to be practical.

So now I need a lot of help. My plan is to use a timer to

trigger a relay. The relay would initially connect the motor
via the transformer and after about 3-5 seconds would
connect the motor directly to 220V. I think I can manage
the timer/relay part myself, but the transformer is my
problem. I measure the current needed by the motor as at
least 6A. Is it possible to use some other SIMPLE
device/design instead of the transformer to regulate the
initial speed of the motor?

Obviously, the less torque the better! I have googled a

long time for this, and everyone says the problem with a
triac is the torque - but I don't care about the torque, I just
want the motor to start really nice and slowly until it gets up
to speed when I can switch to direct 220V via the relay. And
can I use a triac with an induction motor with 2 integrated
capacitors?

I would really appreciate any help, or better still, a circuit

diagram of how I can do the regulating part. Using a
transformer is just too bulky (and expensive).

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10th June 2011, 09:51 #2
betwixt
Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Super Moderator
The real problem is that the electrical load presented by the
motor makes a sudden change as it starts up. Even from
Achievements:
stalled to just running there is a huge change in the current
it draws. A further complication is that if you use a Triac in a
Awards:
conventional phase control system, it chops the power in
mid cycle and creates high frequency steps in the waveform
which in turn causes the capacitors to work in unintended
ways.
It sounds like the original motor was less powerful than the
new one and simply took longer to build up speed, possibly
it was also designed to run slower as well. Changing to a
Join Date: Jul 2009 motor similar to the old one is the real solution but if you
Location: Aberdyfi, West Wales, want to do it electrically you could try one of two things: 1.
UK
a normal light dimmer rated at 2KW or more, you can get
Posts: 11,073
these for controlling floodlights or stage lighting or 2. Use a
Helped: 3641 / 3641
Triac with zero crossing detection and run it for say one on
Points: 67,616
10 cycles then afer a delay for 1 in 9 and so on until it runs
Level: 63
on all cycles. This is a good electrical solution and you
wouldn't need any relays but I'm not sure how stable the
speed build-up would be, some experimentation would be

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10/28/2017 [SOLVED] Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Sponsor needed.

Brian.

10th June 2011, 09:51

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10th June 2011, 22:19 #3
Data sheet for an IC with no part number...
(1) elflop
Two stage open loop comparator draw large Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Newbie level 4
instantaneous current (4)
Thank you for this information. Option #2 is way over my
Clearance between PCB tracks with 300V of head so I'll go for option #1. I've found a "power control
potential difference? (0) Join Date: Jun 2011 unit" that will take 1200VA for 3 mins. but stated elsewhere
Why the door ring can't work? (22) Posts: 6 as 2760 VA with a heatsink, so I hope that's large enough.
Single Stage Logic gate meaning (1) Helped: 0/0 Like all the dimmers I can find, it says it's not suitable for
Nested clock in vhdl (15) Points: 299 "motors with starter capacitors", but I guess that's because
Simulate linearity parameters of a fully Level: 3 of the torque, which I don't need if I use the relay idea. I
differential OTA (12) would only use this unit for 3-5 seconds at most - just
inverter control loop (0) enough to get the motor spinning. Do you think this unit
Sine wave to digital input (1) would work?
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or analog layouts. (2)
Analog MPPT Circuit for Boost Comverter (2) 10th June 2011, 22:30 #4
Dimmer for incandescent lamp (STM8S,
mosfet) (0) FvM
Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
1-30MHz push pull small linear questions (9) Super Moderator
What is OD (oxide diffusion) and why is it Using the motor with a smaller starter capacitance may be a
considered as part of the WPE (6) way to reduce the initial torque. Also a resistor starter
Awards:
VHDL procedure that simulate the lock should be considered. Unfortunately, it well generate a lot of
function a PLL (6) power dissipation, but it may be feasible for short time
Join Date: Jan 2008 operation.
Synthesis of transfer function (11) Location: Bochum, Germany
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communication with RTC module. FULL
DESCRIPTION BELOW (1)
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identifying poles and zeroes? (3)
led sign scan problem in moving (2) 10th June 2011, 23:32 #5
Pin to Clock routing warning after
RCinFLA
implementation (2) Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
concatination problem in port map in vhdl (1) Advanced Member level 2
There are soft starter modules but they are rather
Input impedance simulation in Cadence
expensive.
Virtuoso (9)
Join Date: Aug 2010 PSR6-600-70 - ABB Control - SOFT STARTER, 6.8A, 600V,
Posts: 554 AC CTRL 100-240VAC CONTROL, 208-600VAC LOAD
Helped: 183 / 183 1.5HP@240V, 3HP@480V
Top Posters Points: 3,868
Level: 14 The two capacitors are run cap and start cap. You might try
FvM (40632), alexan_e (11889), BradtheRad
decreasing the start cap value.
(11461), betwixt (11071), keith1200rs (10877)
Soft starter uses triacs like a dimmer controller with a ramp
up of applied rms voltage to motor. For a 1.5 hp motor you
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need to have a triac capable of handling the 15-20 amp
Advanced design system (ADS), ESD, surge current during startup cycle. If you find a regular
Semiconductor Jobs,India, PCB farication dimmer that can handle 20 amps you can use the control
knowledge, RF circuit design with Mentor Graphics, knob as a poor man's soft starter.
Freecircuits, Industrial PLC and Automation,
Wireless Sensors Networks, WIRELESS Until the motor reaches its run speed the current drawn is
COMMUNICATION, PIC Microcontrollers close to locked rotor current. Locked rotor current is a
function of applied voltage.

Sponsor Run current for a 220 vac 1.5 HP motor is between 6 and 7
amps. A triac has about 1.5 v drop across it so it will
dissipate about 10 watts while motor is running. It would
need a reasonable sized heat sink for that much power
dissipation.

Last edited by RCinFLA; 10th June 2011 at 23:41.

10th June 2011, 23:32

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10/28/2017 [SOLVED] Slow start 220V single phase induction motor

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FvM (235053), IanP (74061), bigdogguru (69000),

betwixt (67583), tsb_nph (53644)

10th June 2011, 23:59 #6

jpanhalt
Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Advanced Member level 3
How is your 220V wired? Is it like in the US, where you can
split it into 2, 110V circuits with a grounded conductor? If
Join Date: Jun 2010 so, why not start at 110V then use a voltage relay to switch
Posts: 724 to full 220V when the back emf reached the trigger point?
Helped: 223 / 223
Points: 4,522 I did something like that for a single-phase to 3-phase
Level: 15 converter.

John

11th June 2011, 21:06 #7

elflop
Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Newbie level 4
@RCinFLA: Thanks for this info. Like you say, the soft
starter modules are on the expensive side, especially if they
Join Date: Jun 2011 wouldn't work. But I have noted them.
Posts: 6
Helped: 0/0 @jpanhalt: Our 220V are wired exactly like the US 115V,
Points: 299 but with 230V. It is not wired like the US 220V.
Level: 3
@FvM: I think I should follow up on this, but I need some
more help.
The capacitors are sealed in cans, but I have been able to
open up the starter capacitor. It is marked: Motor Starter
Capacitor", so I guess it's the right one. I don't see any
polarity and it's bridged with a 15K resistor.
What size of capacitor should I experiment with - and what
sort of capacitors are these? Should I also use a different
resistor size?

Here is a scan of the only schematic I have for this motor

(it's a bit big, but I had to make it big because the original
is difficult to read)

Thank you all for your replies

---------- Post added at 22:06 ---------- Previous post was at 20:21 ----------

Originally Posted by jpanhalt

Since you are using 220V, then you also have half of
that available for starting. Have you tried starting it on
the "split" 220V?
John
John, we don't have a "split" 220V. 110V doesn't exist over
here. We only have 230V, 380V and 500V.

11th June 2011, 21:06

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10/28/2017 [SOLVED] Slow start 220V single phase induction motor

11th June 2011, 21:15 #8

jpanhalt
Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Advanced Member level 3
Sorry for the confusion. Right after I posted, I re-read your
comment and realized I had misinterpreted it. I tried to
Join Date: Jun 2010 delete my post, but apparently was too late. Sorry for the
Posts: 724 added confusion.
Helped: 223 / 223
Points: 4,522 John
Level: 15

12th June 2011, 01:03 #9

RCinFLA
Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Advanced Member level 2
If I interpret the diagram right, it looks like there is a
phased winding that stays fed all the time. It looks like a
Join Date: Aug 2010 centrifugal switch between V1 and V2 that just adds more
Posts: 554 capacitance during startup (adding 150 uF C1 in parallel
Helped: 183 / 183 with C2).
Points: 3,868
Level: 14 The resistor is just to bleed any charge on cap after startup
switch opens. C1 may be a dual polarity electrolytic,
meaning it can only take current for a short period of time
(startup time). C2 is likely a oil filled sealed cap that can
take continuous run current.

Since is goes from 300 uF plus 150 uF (450 uF) to just 300
uF for run, see what happens (startup wise) without C1
connected. If startup is too sluggish then try a lower
capacitance value for C1.

Last edited by RCinFLA; 12th June 2011 at 01:15.

12th June 2011, 07:59 #10

FvM
Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Super Moderator
A larger value (300 µF) for the permanently connected than
the starter capacitor seems strange. I rather expect 30 µF.
Awards:

I think, a first test can be, if the motor can possibly start
Join Date: Jan 2008 with C1 disconnected.
Location: Bochum, Germany
Posts: 40,642
Helped: 12418 / 12418
Points: 235,125
Level: 100

12th June 2011, 13:24 #11

elflop
Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Newbie level 4
@FvM and @RCinFLA: You are absolutely right FvM! A very
bad typo on my part. The capacitor is 30µF. Sorry for the
Join Date: Jun 2011 confusion. I've corrected the diagram.
Posts: 6
Helped: 0/0 And now - the great WOW-effect
Points: 299 I disconnected C1 and applied 125V with my transformer
Level: 3 (to be on the safe side). The motor just made a noise. Then
I applied 230V directly - and the motor started nicely

The belt gets pushed to the edge of the pully and ovelaps
the pully by a few millimeters as soon as the centrifugal
switch kicks in*, but it centralizes quickly afterwards. The
belt isn't ejected anymore! This is really great news, and I
thank you both for this very simply (and cheap!) trick.

May I ask you a last question? Is this safe? Can I

permanently remove the starter capacitor?

Thank you everyone who replied very much.

<Edit> * looking at the diagram, I don't think the

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10/28/2017 [SOLVED] Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
centrifugal switch has any function with the starter capacitor
removed, so it must just be the speed that forces the belt
out a bit.

Last edited by elflop; 12th June 2011 at 16:41.

12th June 2011, 17:26 #12

RCinFLA
Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Advanced Member level 2
In your application the motor is starting up with relatively
light load. If this was a water pump or some other
Join Date: Aug 2010 application that required higher starting torque it would not
Posts: 554 spin up.
Helped: 183 / 183
Points: 3,868 I would still try to keep some starter capacitance if belt can
Level: 14 take it. You should not let it take more then a couple of
seconds to come up to full speed as this does have higher
current flowing in run windings during this spin up period.

I don't really understand your description of belt being

pushed to edge of pulley. A normal V-belt has cloth cord and
should not stretch or expand much. If belt is good and
reasonable tight on pulley maybe there can be a slight initial
slippage 'squeel' but should not eject belt. Maybe you need
a new belt.

Other possiblity is your motor mount or saw blade end

mounts are weak. My father had a very old table saw that
the motor was attached to a hinged platform that normally
sat about 45 degrees to V-belt. Just the weight of the motor
against the 45 deg hinge mount is what kept the belt tight.
If you have something like this you might add an adjustable
spring to put more downward force on motor keeping the
belt tight. If the new motor weighs less then old motor and
you have this type of mount arrangement I can see that
causing a problem. The good part of the motor mount was if
the saw blade got wedged by a piece of wood the motor
would just flip over and slacken up the the belt removing
drive to the saw blade.

Last edited by RCinFLA; 12th June 2011 at 17:32.

12th June 2011, 18:22 #13

elflop
Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Newbie level 4
@RCinFLA

Join Date: Jun 2011 Thank you very much for this explanation. Now I
Posts: 6 understand why the motor usually needs a large initial
Helped: 0/0 torque. Obviously with a saw blade there is almost no
Points: 299 friction at all.
Level: 3
My table saw sounds similar to what your father had. The
motor is mounted on a hinged platform that I can adjust.
You can just see the adjusting wing-nut on the bottom of
the picture, in the middle. My belt is flat, it is not a V-
shaped belt. I realize that it may be a rarity, hence the
picture below. If the saw blade gets stuck, the belt is
ejected. Since this happens rarely, I don't know how this
happens because the motor mounting table is fixed by the
wing nut. Like on your father's saw, the pressure of the belt
is the weight of the motor - plus a wee bit more.

With the capacitor removed, the saw reaches maximum

speed in about 2 seconds at the most. The old motor took
longer - I would say about 5 seconds.

Do you think that I really need to use a capacitor? I'm afraid

that if the saw starts any faster it will eject the belt. I'm also
afraid of putting too much pressure on the belt because I
have a feeling that it could wear out the saw bearing. Since
the saw manufacturer has been out of business for many
years, it would be difficult to find spare parts. If you think
that I really should use a capacitor, what value do you
suggest I start with and should I keep the 15K resistor?

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10/28/2017 [SOLVED] Slow start 220V single phase induction motor

12th June 2011, 20:01 #14

FvM
Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Super Moderator
Thanks to RCinFLA for a detailed explanation about different
starting torque requirements, the point I coveniently left for
Awards:
your trial.

Join Date: Jan 2008 Do you think that I really need to use a capacitor?
Location: Bochum, Germany
Posts: 40,642
The important point for a single phase motor is to get a
Helped: 12418 / 12418
rotary field. This is basically achieved by the 30 uF
Points: 235,125
operating capacitor. If the load torque characteristic allows,
Level: 100
you don't necessarily need a starting capacitor. The 15k
resistor is simply a "bleeding" resistor, discharging the
capacitor to prevent an electrical shock that may occur, if
the capcitor holds it's charge a long time after unpowering
the motor. The value isn't particular critical, check the
respective RC time constant. The resistor isn't required to
operate the motor.

Instead of requiring a certain capacitor value, I suggest an

effective overload protection by a thermal circuit breaker. It
protects the motor, if ist possibly doesn't spin up and draws
excessive current.

12th June 2011, 23:11 #15

RCinFLA
Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Advanced Member level 2
Flat belt arrangement.... Just like early industrial age factory
belts. Like a belt sander, the alignment is critical to keep
Join Date: Aug 2010 belt from walking off the pulley.
Posts: 554
Helped: 183 / 183 Sounds like you have a satisfactory solution just leaving off
Points: 3,868 extra starting cap. If it gives you more trouble I would think
Level: 14 about replacing pulleys and belt with V-belt type.

12th June 2011, 23:11

13th June 2011, 13:36 #16

elflop
Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Newbie level 4
@RCinFLA: You seem very knowledgeable about these belts
and you information has been very useful to me.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 6 My table saw is at most 30 years old, and, except for the old
Helped: 0/0 motor, works perfectly. I've been very happy with it in the
Points: 299 past and it's never let me down.
Level: 3 I am, however, a bit worried about the flat belt, especially if
it breaks. Like you say, alignment is critical and it's all but
impossible to get the belt dead center - as you can see on
the picture. Once I make the electrical connections to the
motor permanent, I'll try and reposition the motor to try

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10/28/2017 [SOLVED] Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
and get the pulley centered. I doubt very much that I can
convert to a V-Belt because of the top (saw blade) pulley,
but I will certainly google for a possible solution.

Anyway thank you all very much for your replies, especially
RCinFLA and FvM. I will definitely look into the overload
protection after I get everything connected and running.
This has been a much easier fix than I had expected -
something that I can do without being an electronics guru! I
have learned a lot from your comments, so thank you all
once again. I hope this thread will help others who have the
same problem with these new-age, high-torque, motors
driving old-age machines.

23rd September 2011, 13:20 #17

tanuki
Re: Slow start 220V single phase induction motor
Member level 5
Take a look at this article about flat belt pulley crowning:
Flat belt tracking on pulleys.

You should be able to crown the lower pulley easily with a

mill file will the motor is running or take it to a machine
shop and have it turned on a lathe.

Happy sawing!

Join Date: Jun 2001

Location: Spain
Posts: 92
Helped: 4/4
Points: 3,914
Level: 14

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