UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION

16320 N W 2ndAvenue
North Miami Beach, FL 33 169

File Number: MM- 109803

Task Number:

Tape NumberICD #:

Audio File Name:

Date Recorded:

- Time Recorded:

Language: Spanish

LS Michael E. Heggie

Operational Review: LA Veronika Eliakim

Participants:
Alejandro Antonini AA Franklin Duran
Guillermo Ledezma GL Moises Maionica
Unknown Female UF Unknown Male

Abbreviations:
Italics Spoken in Foreign Languages
IA Inaudible
UI Unintelligible
PH Phonetic
[1 Background Conversation / Noise
SC SimuItaneous Conversation
ov Overlapping Voices
CASE
[RCI Recorded Message NO. 07-20999-Cr-Lenard

EXHIBIT ,,
NO.
 File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a -- .-

-
TRANSCRIPTION: TRANSLATION:

[PAUSA]

UM: The date is August 27Ih, 2007.

I The date is August 27Ih, 2007. Time is 6:49
Time is 6:49p.m. This is a p.m. This is a consensual recording between
consensual recording between Alejandro Antonini ...Franklin Duran and
Alejandro Antonini ...Franklin others. The consensual recording begins
Duran and others. The consensual now.
recording begins now.

[PAUSA]

[RUIDO AL FONDO] [MISCELLANEOUS BACKGROUND

NOISES]

AA: Estoy en diez minutos, joiste? I'll be there in ten minutes, you hear?

[VOCES IN AL FOND01 [UI VOICES IN BACKGROUND]

L

AA: Diez...diez, quince minutos. jokey? Ten ...ten, fifteen minutes. Okay?

[VOCES IN AL FOND01 [UI VOICES IN BACKGROUND]

[PAUSA]

UM: Sorry, had to go out again.

I Sorry, had to go out again.

[VOCES IN AL FOND01 [UI VOICES IN BACKGROUND]

UM: No. 1'11 be back shortly. IVo. I'll be back shortly.

[VOCES IN AL FOND01 [UI VOICES IN BACKGROUND]

[PAUSA LARGA]

[VOCES IN AL FOND01
I [IoNG
[UI VOICES IN BACKGROUND]

[ RUIDOS DIVERSOS AL FOND01 [VARIED BACKGROUND NOISE]

 File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
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[VOCES IN AL FOND01 [UI VOICES IN BACKGROUND]

MM: iC6m0 estas, Alejandro? How are you, Alejandro?

[SCI [SCI

AA: Bien, y itu? Fine, and you?

[SCI [SCI

AA: Estas bien. You're fine.

FD: [UT] esa vaina? [UI] that thing?

AA: Bien chevere. ~ Q u Cmas? Really well. What's new?

FD: Ya lleg6 el abogado. The lawyer arrived already

MM: Esta en el baiio. He's in the restroom.

FD: ~ E s t aen el bafio? He's in the restroom?

AA: L Me siento aqui o alla? Shall I sit here or over there?

MM: Donde tu quieras. Wherever you want.

AA: [UI] pues. Pa' escucharte. [UI] then. To hear you.

MM: ~Descansasteun poquito? Did you rest a little?

AA: Bueno ... Well ...

FD: No te ladille todo el tiempo pa' que I didn't bother you the whole time to [UI]
[UII [MSAl [CHUCKLE]

AA: No me fastidiaste, es verdad. You didn't bother me, it's true. But ... [UI] how
Pero ... [UI] c6mo voy a dormir. am I going to sleep, if. ..if. .. [UI] so political ...
vale, si ...si ...[ UI] tan politica ...

MM: Si. Mira, conoce a Guillermo Yes. Listen, meet Guillermo Ledezma.

- 2
File Number: MM-109803
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AA: Mucho gusto. Antonini, jc6m0
esth?
GL: Hola, mucho gusto.
FD: jC6rno te fie...? Primero que nada.
iC6m0 te f i e con tus abogados?
AA: Bien.
FD: jLes ...les diste el poder a ellos?
AA: No. Porque fui a hablar con.. .
MM: Bueno. Mira, te hago un poquito ...
del ...iQ
uieres que entremos en
materia o te queres re ...tomar algo...
AA: No, no, no.
MM: ...o refrescarte, o...?
AA: Como quieras.
MM: Okey. Te ...te hago un poquito ...
del ...el resumen de Guillemo. Ehh...
Guillermo es un ...abogado de vieja
data ...de la vieja guardia de
Argentina, muy.. .muy reconocido,
muy conectado. El ...ha ...ha estado
en todas las funciones publicas y
privadas. Tiene ...un ...escritorio, un
estudio muy respetado en ...en la
materia alli en ...en Argentina. Y,
ehh...tiene dentro de su ...handicap
el haber sido juez y...haber
sentenciado...contra la junta militar
en ...en Argentina. Eso le da ...a nivel
Pleased to meet you. Antonini, how are you?
Hello, pleased to meet you.
How did you get on ...? First of all. How did
you get on with your lawyers?
Fine.
Did ...did you give them the power of attorney?
No. Because 1 went to talk to ...
Okay. Look. let me give you a little ...of the ...
Do you want to get down to business or do you
want to ...drink something ...
No, no, no.
...or freshen up, or ...?
As you like.
Okay. 1'11...I'll give you a little ...of Guillemo's
background. IJhh... Guillermo is a...veteran...old
guard attorney from ArgentinA, very... very
renowned, very well connected. He ...has ...has
performed in all public and private roles. He
has ...a...very respected law office ...in ...in
Argentina. And, uhh.. .his handicap...includes
having been a judge and ...having ruled against
the military junta in ...in Argentina. That gives
him ...a measure of public credibility, uhrn ...a
position ...uh, of respect ...within the ...the ...the
Argentine community. Especially among those
...in the media. Moreover, he's got a...
professional career and a track record ...You
 File Number: MM- 109803
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-.

de credibilidad ...mediitica, uhm ... saw his ...his resume.

una posici6n ...este, de respeto ...por
parte de ...del ...del colectivo ...
argentino. Sobre todo esa gente
de ...de 10s medios. Ademas, tiene
una.. .camera y una trayectoria
profesional ...Tu viste su ...su
curriculum.

M: Su curriculum. Si. His resume. Yes.

MM: Es intachable, jno? Este ...Yo te voy It's impeccable, right? Uh ...I'm going to let him
a dejar que el mas o menos te more or less explain your legal situation...there
explique cual es la situation legal in Argentina. What he thinks is the proper
tuya ...all8 en Argentina. Cual el Cree strategy to overcome and then ...we'll talk.
es la estrategia correcta para
resolver y entonces de una vez...
conversamos.

GL: Ehh. ..bueno, yo. ..quiero aclarar Uhh...well, I...want to clarify that ... [it] was
que... fueron puestos por 10s diarios placed there by the newspapers ...
solamente ...

AA: Correcto. Right.

GL: ...jno? Eh ...he juntado antes de ...right? Uh.. .before coming I gathered
venir en el Internet todo lo que everything that was available from the Internet,
habia, etcetera. Eh ... etc. Uh ...

FD : [UI] Carlitos, [SC] [UI] [UI] Carlitos, [SC] [UI]

GL: De no haber ... Had the ...

MM: [SCI [IJI]

GL: ...prensa de por medio contra el
gobierno, que hay varios medios
que estan en contra del gobierno, de
medios importantes en Argentina ...
esto hubiera terminado en lo que
...press not been in the middle, opposing the
government, since there are several members of
the media that oppose the government, of
important media in Argentina ...this would have
wound up the way it did.
 File Number: MM-109803
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termino.

AA: Claro. Sure.

GL: En una infraction aduanera. In a customs violation. Legally, this ...

Juridicarnente, esto...

AA: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

GL: ...esto es una charada. ...this is a charade.

AA: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

GL: Nada mas. Nothing else.

AA: Pero, ipor que tengo ...por que hay But why do I have ...because is there a warrant
una orden de...por que hay una for ...why is there a warrant for ...for...? I'm
orden de.. .de.. .? Yo no.. .no lo voy not ...I won't interrupt you. Excuse me.
a interrumpir. Disculpe.
.-
GL: Si. Yes.

AA: Si. Yes.

MM: iTu quC tomas? What will you drink?

GL No, no. Eh ...no, usted ... No, no. Uh ...no, you ...

AA: Ehh...me tom0 ... Uhh...Itll drink...

GL: ...usted digame lo que quiere. ...you tell me what you want.

AA: ...un agua con gas. No, no. Lo dejo ...sparkling water. No, no. 1'11 let you speak.
hablar. Disculpeme, que ... 10s Excuse me, that ... my nerves don't let me ...
nervios no me dejan...

GL: Lo que ...le quiero decir ...es que What ...I want to say...is that this ...is what it was
esto ...es lo que fue a1 principio. at the start.

AA: Uh-huh. Sparkling water, please. Uh-huh. Sparkling water, please.

File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
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UM: Sure.
I Sure.

GL : Una mera infraction a la ley. A mere infraction of the law.

AA: Okey. Okay.

MM: . Pero, fijate. El ...Para que But listen. The ...For there to be ...for the
haya ...para que la infraccion customs infraction to become contraband ...
aduanera se convierta en
contrabando.. .

AA: Uh-huh.

MM: ...hace falta ardid y engaiio. ...there must be a ruse and deception.

AA: Uh-huh.

MM: Y ardid y engaiio no es no declarar.
De hecho, la sanci6n la constituye el
hecho de no declarar. Si tu
llevaras ...quince mil dolares y en la
planilla, pones diez mil ...y te
descubren quince mil ...eso es
infraccion. Las cantidades no
importan. Eso es infraccion.
And a ruse and deception is not failure to
declare. Indeed, the sanction is the failure to
declare. If you were carrying ...fifteen thousand
dollars and you wrote ten thousand on the
form... and they discover fifteen thousand ...that's
an infraction. The amounts don't matter. That's
an infraction.

GL: Esta...Es mas de diez mil. Eh ...eh... It's ...It's more than ten thousand. Uh ...uh ...did
justed lleno la planilla? you fill out the form?

AA: No. No.

GL: Ah, bueno. Entonces, mas notable
todavia. Porque la infraccion es...
que le den una planilla ...y...y igual
que a...aqui en Estados Unidos, mas
de diez mil no se puede entrar. [UI]
Oh, okay. So, even more noteworthy. Because
the infraction is ...for them to give you the
form...and...and just like ...here in the United
States, you can't take in more than ten
thousand. [UI]

FD: Si se puede entrar. Yes, you can.

Huh?
File Number: MM-109803
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- -- -
MM: Pero hay que declarar.
GL: No, no, tenis que [UI]
GL: [UI] que declarar. Ehh, sin declarar.
FD: Exacto.
GL: Entonces ...si usted llena la plan ...
planilla y dice tengo nueve mil ...y...
y...y...y...tiene mas ...esta es la
infraccion.
AA: No entiendo.
GL: En este caso ...me parece que
tampoco hay infraccion, porque hay
algunos fallos que dice...
MM: No te dieron planilla.
GL: ...que si no le dieron la planilla, no
hay infraccion. He ...he leido fallos
asi. Pero, como aqui...se metio ...
AA: La politica.
GL: ...la politica y la prensa ...salio
corriendo la justicia por la ventana.
Como.. .como decia un. ..un.. .un
viejo.. .eh...profesor uruguayo que se
llamaba Calamandre. Entonces,
iquC pasa? Tenemos dos
posiciones. Una: [UI] contrabando
porque ...dijera que usted dijo
que...q ue en realidad llevaba libros
y despues dijo que llevaba sesenta
mil ...y en realidad Ilevaba mas. Eso
I But you must declare.
No, no, you have to [UI]
1 [UI] to declare. Uhh, without declaring.
Exactly.
So...if you fill out the fo...form and say I have
nine thousand ...and. ..and.. .and...and...you have
more ...that's the infraction.
I don't understand.
In this case ...I think there's no infraction either,
because some rulings say ...
They didn't give you a form.
...that there's no infraction if you weren't given a
form. I've...I've read such rulings. But, since
here.. .
Politics.
...politics and the press got involved ...justice
fled out the window. As ...as an...an...an
old ...uh ...Uruguayan law professor, by the
name Calamandre, used to say. So, what
happens? We have two positions. One: [UI]
contraband, because.. .like you said...that you
really were carrying books and later said that
you were carrying sixty thousand ...and you
were actually carrying more. That's not deceit,
legally speaking. That's not deceipt in terms
of. ..deceit is...a concealed bottom, uhh...uh, to
File Number: MM-109803
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no es engaiio en tCrminos j u r i d i c ~ ~ . take in a hundred carts with a...with...with each

Eso no es engaiio en tCrminos... weighing a different amount.
engaiio es...un doble fondo, ehh ...
eh, entrar cien carretillas con un.. .
con. ..con un peso cada una.

MM: 0 , ken que...? Or. in what ...?

AA: Y...y el acta esa que mandaron a And...and that written record they had drawn
hacer. En el acta esa ... up. In that record ...

GL: Y ...eh ...yo no la conozco, per0 ... And...uh...Itm not familiar with it, but ...but
per0 evidentemente el acta no tiene obviously the written record includes nothing
nada mas que una infraccibn. more than an infraction.

AA: NO tiene ...? It doesn't have ...?

GL: Nada mas que una infraccion. Nothing more than an infraction.

AA: Correcto.
I Right.

MM: ~ T finnaste
u el acta? Did you sign the record?

AA: Si. Yes.

MM: Y el acta, ique decia? And what did the record say?

AA: Que es una infraction. That it's an infraction.

MM: Que es una infraccibn per0 que That it's an infraction but it said that ...uh, they
decia que ...eh, te preguntaron lo de asked you about the ...what are you carrying?
10s...iq ue llevas? Y tu dijistes libros And you said books [UI]
[UII

AA: No, no, no. No, no, no.

MM: NO dice nada de eso? It says none of that?

File Number: MM-109803
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AA: No, no.
[PORCION IN]
MM: Una infraccion.
GL: 0 sea que...esto es el estado
juridico. Eh ...eh ...le. ..la cuestion
juridica. Y si inventaran el
contrabando, si lo inventaran ...
como parece que lo...porque lo
unico que pude averiguar yo ...de
esto, como no tengo nada que ver
con el expediente y no ...no me ...no
me dan informacion, lo unico que se
es la caratula. La caratula dice su
nombre ...por tentativa de
contrabando. La tentativa de
contrabando tiene una pena. ..de.. .
seis meses a diez afios...lo que la
hace totalmente excarcelable, es
decir ...eximible de prision. Es
decir ...ustedes quieren que declare
hoy per0 antes diganrne que no voy
a prision.
MM: Tener esa garantia.
GL: No se si me explico. La situacion en
que estamos ahora es esa.
[MUSICA AL FOND01
GL : Usted no puede ir ...Primero, no
podemos evitar que vaya para que
se levante la captura. Pero no puede
ir ...sin la seguridad de tener la
eximicion de prision concedida.
AA: Claro.
No, no.
[UI PORTION]
An infraction.
In other words ...this is the legal situation. Uh ...
uh ...the ...the legal question. And if they were to
make up the contraband allegation, if they did
make it up ...as it seems that the ...because the
only thing I was able to find out ...about this,
since I have nothing to do with the case file
and ...they don't give me information, the only
thing I know is the cover. The cover cites your
name ...for attempted contraband. Attempted
contraband is punishable ...by ...six months to
ten years ...which makes it completely eligible
for release from prison, in other words...
immune from prison. That is ...y ou people want
me to declare today but before that, tell me that
I'm not going to prison.
To have that guarantee.
I'm not sure if I'm making myself understood.
That's the situation we're in right now.
[BACKGROUND MUSIC]
You cannot go ...First of all, we cannot prevent
you from going to have the arrest warrant lifted.
But you cannot go ...without the assurance of
being granted immunity from prison.
Sure.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
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GL: Entonces, aqui ...creo que
necesitamos la ayuda de la politica,
que es lo que hablamos contigo.
MM: Hm-mm.
GL: Porque.. .
AA: La ayuda de la politica venezolana.
GL : Ehh...de...del.. .del...eh...eh. ..
venezolana con su influencia sobre
la Argentina.
AA: Bueno, pero. ..pero...
GL : Claro, [UI]
AA: ...usted esta claro...0 no se si a
usted le echaron ...
AA: ...el cuento todo.
MM: No, totalmente, totalmente. Mira.
GL: Porque ...Si.
MM: Lo que ...lo que yo digo. El fiscal
responde a1 gobiemo central.
Gracias a Dios, alla. La solicitud
que hay que hacer, que el te va a
explicar ahorita que es, va con
consulta a1 fiscal. Entonces ...ehh,
haciendo la solicitud ahorita ...de,
jc6m0 se llama? La ...
So, here ...I think we need the help of politics,
which is what we discussed with you.
Because.. .
Venezuelan political help.
Uhh.. .of. ..of the.. .uh. ..uh.. .Venezuelan, with its
influence over Argentina's.
Well, but ...but ...
[SCI
Sure, [UI]
...you're aware ...Or I don't know if you were
given.. .
...the whole story.
No, completely, completely. Look.
Because ...Yes.
What ...what I'm saying. The prosecutor obeys
the central government. Over there, thank God.
The request that needs to be made, which he'll
explain now, is sent up with a query to the
prosecutor. Then ...uhh, by making the request
now ...of, what's the name? The ...
File Number: MM- 109803
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-- --
GL: La eximicion de prision.
MM: ...la eximicion de prision ...el
gobierno venezolano nos garantiza
que a ti ...te liberan la medida. De ...
de Interpol. ..para que.. .puedas
viajar ...adonde ...0 sea, libera la
medida. 0 sea...
AA: Y, iquiCn ...? Y, iquiCn la libera ...?
Argentina.. .
MM: El mismo tribunal argentino.
GL: Lo que yo tengo entendido...es que
hay una eximicion ...por lo que lei en
10s diarios ...
AA: Si: si. No, es que existe.
GL: ...que hay una eximicion de prisi6n
presentada a1 parecer por un
abogado que se llama [UI]
AA: No, no.
GL: Un abogado que se llama Alberto
Albarrasin [PHI. Esto es lo que lei.
Pero no lo vi, no. No me consta.
Ehh ...Y que...el fiscal se
habi.. .hab...habria opuesto diciendo
que usted intento burlar la accion de
la justicia ... que ...q ue se escapo y el
juez ...la juez, le habria dicho y le ...y
le habria dado la razon y la habia
denegado. Esto es apelable. No,
esa se termino porque no la
present6 usted, la present6 el
I The immunity from prison.
...the immunity from prison.. .the Venezuelan
government guarantees us that.. .the measure
against you is lifted. By ...by Interpol ...so that ...
you can travel ...to ...In other words, it lifts the
measure. That is ...
And who ...? And who lifts it...? Argentina ...
The same Argentine court.
As I understand it.. .there's an immunity.. .
according to what I read in the papers ...
Yes, yes. No, it does exist.
...there's an immunity from prison apparently
filed by a lawyer named [UI]
No, no.
A lawyer named Alberto Albarrasin [PHI. This
is what I read. But I didn't see it, no. I cannot
swear to it. Uhh ...And that ...the prosecutor
reportedly opposed it alleging that you
attempted to evade the law...that ...that you
escaped and the judge ...the judge is supposed
to have agreed and had denied it. This can be
appealed. No, that one ended because you
didn't file it, it was filed by the lawyer. Right?
The code says...You would say, how odd
because I didn't authorize it. The code says
that.. .immunity from prison can be
File Number: MM-109803
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abogado. ~ O k e y ?El codigo
dice.. .Usted dira, quC raro porque si
yo no la autorice. El codigo dice
que ...la eximicion de prision la
puede presentar ...por si, el ...el ...el
acusado por si o por terceros. Ni
siquiera ... eh, sino un ...un ...un
nombramiento sin un poder.
Entonces, usted puede decir, yo
esto no lo pedi. Ahora se empieza a
pedir. Ehh ...Entonces, la cuestion
es...conseguir ...Si el jue ...si el juez
dice que no ...esta la camara de
apelaciones. Y si la camara de
apelaciones dice que no, esta la
camara de casacion ...y si la camara
de casacion dice que no, esta la
corte suprema porque eso ...hasta
ahora es una aberration ...lo que le ...
eh, eh, que le nieguen la excimicion
de...
MM: Aja.
GL: ...prision por ese delito.
MM: Ya va. Aqui ...aqui intervengo yo.
No tiene que decir que no ...porque
el gobierno venezolano nos esta
garantizando que ya converso con el
argentino para que digan que si.
Pero independientemente de eso,
para hacer esa solicitud y para que
ellos contesten, tu no tienes que
moverte de aqui. Eso lo ...se hace
solo con la designacion ...
MM: ...como abogado.
submitted.. .by himself, the.. .the...the accused
himself or by third parties. Not even... uh,
rather with an ...an ...an authorization without a
power of attorney. So, you can argue, I didn't
ask for this. Then you begin to petition for it.
Uhh ...So, the question is ...to get ...If the jud ...if
the judge says no ...there's the court of appeals.
And if the court of appeals says no, there's the
court of cassation ...and if the court of cassation
says no, there's the supreme court because ...up
to now, this is an aberration ...uh, uh, for them
to deny the exemption from ...
...prison for that offense.
Wait a minute. Let me come in here. He
doesn't have to say no ...because the
Venezuelan government is assuring us that it
already talked to the Argentine government to
get them to say yes. But aside from that, to
make that request and for them to answer, you
don't have to move from here. That's ...done
simply with the appointment ...
[SCI
...of an attorney.
File Number: MM-109803
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GL : E x a c t ~[UI]
. Exactly. [UT]

MM: Eso lo hace 61 y lo pide. 0 sea, que
cuando tu salgas de aqui ...sera con
la garantia que alla no existe ninguna
medida ...de captura en tu contra.
jMe estas entendiendo?
That's done by him and he requests it. In other
words, when you leave here ...it'll be with the
guarantee that there's no measure.. .seeking
your capture. You understand?

GL: Solo asi se podria hacer. That's the only way it could be done.

MM: Y asi ...tu vas a...asi tu vas a tener
absoluta certeza de lo que ...lo que
nosotros te estamos diciendo es
verdad. De que tienes el apoyo
del ...del gobierno. ..venezolano y, en
consecuencias, del gobierno.. .
argentino.
And that way ...you're going to ...that way you're
going to be absolutely sure ...that what we're
telling you is true. That you have the support of
the ...of the Venezuelan government and,
consequently, of the Argentine ...government.

AA: Pero...estando la cosa tan politizada But ...with the thing so politically charged ...
como esta ...

GL: ~ C o m ocomo?
, I What, what?

M: Que estando la ...estando la situation That with the ...situation as politically charged
tan politizada como... as.. .

FD: Si.
I Yes.
AA: ...esta ...jest0 no es mejor esperar ...it is...isn't it better to wait until after the
hasta despues de las elecciones? elections?

MM:

GL:
No.

El ...
I The ...

MM: El diez de octubre hay elecciones. There's elections on October 10. Are you and I
~ T yuyo vamos a correr el riesgo going to run the risk of not ...
de que no ...

GL: Bueno... I well ...

File Number: MM-109803
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MM: ...de que no ...
FD: De que no gane Cristina.
MM: ...gane la mia? No joda.
AA: Que no gane ...
MM: Cristina.
M: ...Cristina.
FD: Pero y si no gana Cristina, ahi si te
van a dar, per0 con un bate.
MM: No, no. No corramos ese riesgo ...
Alejandro. Ademas, tu ...tu no vas a
perder nada. No te vas a mover de
aqui. Vas a seguir haciendo tu vida
aqui. Este ...no va a haber ...es un
mero t r h i t e administrativo. per0
aprovechemos ahorita la influencia
que tenemos. Maiiana no sabemos.
Yo no correria ese riesgo siendo tu.
MM: Y jsi gana la oposicion y tu eres el
chivo expiatorio de ...de la vaina?
FD: Le echan bolas pa' Ilevarte. Ahi si le
echan bolas.
MM: Yo le preguntC a el.
...of not ...
...of mine not winning? Screw it.
Of defeat.. .
Cristina.
...for Cristina.
But, if Cristina doesn't win, then they're going
to hit you hard, but with a bat.
No, no. Let's not run that risk ...Alejandro. In
addition, you ...you're not going to lose anything.
You're not going to move from here. You're
going to continue living here. Uh ...there's not
going to be ...it's a simple administrative
procedure, but let's take advantage now of the
influence that we have. Tomorrow you never
know. I wouldn't run that risk if 1 were you.
And if the opposition wins and you're the
sacrificial lamb of. ..of the thing?
They'll go for it to take you there, they'll go for
it.
I asked him.
File Number: MM- 109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

FD: Y si...Y oyeme, y si hablas, And if. ..And listen, and if you talk, wonderful
buenisimo. Te vas preso tu y todos You'll got to jail, and all the Argentines [UI]
10s argentinos [UI]

GL: Yo no te he oido mucho lo que I haven't heard much of what you're saying.
decis.

AA: Y, si...y si, iquC, Frank? And if. ..and if, what, Frank?

FD: Si gana la oposicion, y te lleva...

I If the opposition wins, and you're taken ...

MM: El quiere esperar a la eleccion. He wants to wait for the election. I'm saying, "If
Digo, "iSi no gana Cristina?" Cristina doesn't win?"

AA: Aja. Uh-huh.

FD: [UI] casi mejor porque vas preso tu
y todos 10s argentinos que estCn
contigo, i t u me entiendes? 0 sea, es
buenisimo. Es lo mejor de lo peor
que puede pasar.
[UI] almost better because you go to jail and all
the Argentines who are with you, you
understand? In other words, it's wonderfuI. It's
the best of the worst that can happen.

MM: Y ellos tambikn estan interesados. And they're also interested.

AA: Ah, tu dices que si voy y digo la Oh, you're saying that if I go and tell the truth ...
verdad.. .cumdo me.. .me agarren when ]...they jail me there, so everybody lands
preso alla, pa' que vaya preso todo in jail.
el mundo.

MM:

FD:
No.

Claro. Cae preso todo el mundo.

I Sure. Everybody goes to jail.

GL: No, eh ... No, uh ...

FD: Que...ojo. That ...watch out.

AA: Segun.. . 1 According ...

File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
FD: La verdad verdadera es que ellos
son argentinos. Van a defender a su
tierra [Ul] y el h i c o que va a estar
preso eres tu.
GL: Ehh.. .Si...si, eh.. .tengo version por
61, cual es la verdad. NO?
AA: ~ C u aes
l la verdad que tiene usted?
GL: La verdad es que...Uberti te pidio
que llevaras la...disculpame que te
tut6e.
AA: Claro, me dijo que car...arrastrara
la maleta. Lokey? No, no me dijo,
no. Yo ...yo...yo le hice el favor ...y
cuando...cuando me dijeron, eh ...eh,
"Pongala ahi," 61 hizo asi, como si no
era de 61. Y eso h e todo. Asi de
facil.
GL: Ehh...el problema, eh ...de decir la
verdad ahi ...es que.. .hay un
contrabando agravado [UI] yo lo
qu ...que te quiero decir que yo soy
un hombre leal, esto, y si me
contratan para vos, y te defiendo a
vos y te dig0 todo. Es ...esto, quiero,
eh ... eh ...que me mires a 10s ojos y
lo sepas, que es que yo no estoy
defendiendo a nadie, me importa
tres pomos 10s demas, me importa
vos. No soy quimerista ni lo quiero
ser.
AA: LNO...no eres...?
GL: No soy quimerista.. .
-- --.- --
The real truth is that they're Argentines. They're
going to defend their land [Ul] and the only one
who's going to prison is you.
Uhh...If...if, uh ...I have a version of his, what is
the truth. Right?
I What is the truth that you have?
The truth is that ...Uberti asked you to take
the ...excuse me for addressing you with the
familiar you.
Sure, he told me to car ...to drag the suitcase.
Okay? No, he didn't tell me, no. I...I...I did him
the favor ...and when ...when they told me, uh ...
uh, "Put it there," he did like that, as if it wasn't
his. And that was all. That simple.
Uhh...the problem, uh ...with telling the truth
there.. .is that.. .there's aggravated contraband
[UI] what I...what 1 mean is that I'm a loyal
man, uh, and if l'm hired for you, I'll defend you
and I'll tell you everything. I want, uh ...uh ...you
to look me in the eye and to know that I'm not
defending anybody, I care a whit about the rest,
I care about you. I'm no dreamer nor do I wish
to be.
You ...you aren't ...?
I'm not a dreamer.. .
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Taje Number / CD: R2a
AA : Ah.
GL: ...ni lo quiero ser.
AA: Lull
GL: Eh, asi que esto te lo aclaro con
toda la ley. Lo que te quiero decir
que hay un contrabando agravado,
que es cuando intervienen tres
personas, uno que...q ue instiga,
eh ...y dos que se esconden. Si
tu ...pones esa linea, de la ayuda que
[UI] y, bueno, Wberti esta arreglado
porque se lo dieron para ...y
entonces ya m a n el ... arman tres.
No sC si me explico. Ese ...ese de
tres tiene cuatro a diez aiios de
prision ...y... con cuatro de minimo,
no hay eximicion de prision. En la
Argentina. Tienes que estar durante
el proceso detenido.
MM: Guillermo, per0 el lo ...el lo que...lo
que ...
GL : Pero ...
MM: ...estaba especulando era como un
medio de presion si acaso ...si acaso,
eh, la politica no funciona como
queremos. Pero.. .
GL : Ah, bueno. Si, un medio de presion,
llevaba la ...valija pa' Argentina.
MM: Claro. [RISA]
GL: Eso es un medio de presion. Pero ...
eso es lo que estan espantados...
Oh.
...nor do I wish to be.
Uh, so I'm clari@ing this beyond any doubt.
What I mean when there's aggravated
contraband, is when it involves three
individuals, one who ...who instigates, uh ...and
two who hide. If you ...follow that line, about
the help that [UI] and, well, Wberti is taken
care of because they gave it to him to ...and then
they organize the ... organize three. I don't know
if you follow me. That ...that one with three,
calls for four to ten years incarceration ...and
with four years minimum, there's no immunity
from prison. In Argentina. You must remain in
prison during the process.
Guillermo, but he ...what he ...what ...
But ...
...he was speculating about was a pressure
tactic in case ...in case, uh, politics don't work
out like we want. But ...
Oh, okay. Yes, a pressure tactic, he was taking
the ...suitcase to Argentina.
Sure. [LAUGHTER]
That's a pressure tactic. But ...that's what has
them panicked ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
T a ~ Number
e / CD: R2a

MM: Por eso es que todo el mundo ... That's why everybody.. .

GL: [UT] Eso es lo que tienen ...p inico. [UI] That's what they have ...panic. And in that
Y en ese sentido, el veintiocho ...el regard, the twenty-eight.. .the twenty-eight.. .
veintiocho.. .

MM: Mira. Look.

GL : ...es una.. . ...is a...

GL : ...de octubre ... ...of October ...

MM: La verdad ...le puede costar las The truth ...can cost her the election. The truth,
elecciones a ella. La verdad, se it can become a scandal.
puede convertir en un escandalo.

FD: Pero, ojo. El esti... Yeah, but wait. He is ...

MM: Que le ... That ...

FD : ...el tiene el maso bajo el mango. ...he's got the ace up his sleeve.

MM: Por eso. That's why.

FD : Pero si ella pierde ...tu verdad [UI] But if she loses ...y our truth [UI] nightmare.
pesadilla.

MM: Por eso nosotros tenemos que
actuar ya ...esa es mi ...mi
recomendacion.. .y... porque
ademas, ique ...que ...que es lo
peor? Vamos a suponer. ~ C u a l e s
son las consecuencias del actuar?
Tu [UT] se hace una designacion de
abogado, lo designas a el. El va y
pide la eximicion de prision. Le
That's why we've got to act now ...that's my ...
my recommendation.. .and...because,
furthermore, what.. .what...what's worse? Let's
consider. What are the consequences of taking
action? You [UT] an attorney appointment is
made, you appoint him. He goes and asks for
immunity from prison. They refuse him. So.
you're going to call me, "Damn, what a croc."
He's going to call me. "Weren't we supposed to
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape
-- ---
Number / CD: R2a
dicen que no. Entonces, me vas a
llamar a mi, "Cofio, que bolas." Me
va a llamar 61. "Y que teniamos
apoyo. IVo me dieron la eximicion
de prision." Eso es lo que va a
pasar.
FD: Tu situacion actual no cambia.
MM: Voy a llamar yo ...
FD: No empeora.
MM: ...a quien me pus0 a mi en este peo
y le voy a decir, "Mira, iqu6 paso?"
Y voy a llamar a1 otro, a1 otro y
moveran lo que haya que mover ...
para que salga.
AA: [Ul:]
MM: Pero ...pero, tu situacion en ese caso
no va a ser peor que la de ahorita.
GL: No.
MM: Ahorita estas profugo.
GL: No va a ser peor ...porque el escrito
que yo propongo es...nombra
abogado y dig0 que me quiero
presentar. Pero me quiero presentar
de ...como dice una jurisprudencia,
cuando crearon, eh.. .eh, la
eximicion de prision en Argentina,
dijeron que es una forma de
presentarse de una manera pacifica
y legal. Y no de una manera
compulsiva, detenido. Entonces, tu
lo que estas buscando es ese
have support? They didn't give me immunity
from prison." That's what will happen.
Your current situation doesn't change.
I'm going to call ...
It doesn't get worse.
...whoever got me into this mess and I'm going
to say, "Listen, what happened?" And I'm going
to call the other one, the other and they'll move
whatever it takes ...to get it.
But ...but your situation in that case won't be
worse than it is now.
No.
Right now you're a fugitive.
It's not going to be worse ...because the writ
that I'm proposing is ...appoint your lawyer and
I say that I want to appear. But I want to
appear as ...as stated in jurisprudence, when
they created, uh ...uh, the immunity from prison
in Argentina, they said it was established as a
peaceful and legal way of appearing. And not
mandatory, under arrest. So, what you're trying
to get is that right because ...uh, even if they
argue that the infraction is an offense, it allows
you to go peacefully and legally. I don't know if
I make myself clear.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
derecho porque ...eh, la infraccion y
aun si te quieren decir que es un
delito, te permite ir de manera
pacifica y legal. No se si me explico.
AA: Y, ique ...? Okey. Y, iquien
garantiza.. .eh...que. ..que yo vaya y
no me metan preso?
GL: Eh, tu ...
MM: Th vas a tener la eximici6n antes de
GL: No, si tu vas ...si tu vas preso, todo
esto se acab6. Te quedas preso.
Porque quiere decir que no quisiste
responder a la justicia.
MM: No, no, el no se refiere a eso.
GL: LA quk?
MM: Dice, una vez obtenida la eximicion,
iquikn le garantiza que no lo van a...
a detener?
GL: Bueno, esto es una cosa que
tenemos que, ah ...eh, que obtener
politicamente. Seria una traicion
muy jorobada y en principio te diria
que es muy poco probable. Muy
poco probable.
FD: Seria el gobierno argentino con el
gobierno venezolano.
And what ...? Okay. And who guarantees ...uh ...
that ...that if I go I won't be jailed?
Uh, you ...
I You'll have the immunity before you go.
I No, if you're ...if you're jailed, all this is over.
I You stay in jail. Because it means that you
refused to answer the call of justice.
No, no, he's not referring to that.
To what?
He's saying, once immunity is secured, who
guarantees that he's not going to be ...be
arrested?
1 Well, this is something that we have to, uh ...uh,
to obtain politically. It would be great treachery
and, in principle, I would say, extremely
unlikely. Extremely unlikely.
It would be the Argentine government with the
Venezuelan government.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number I CD: R2a
MM: Porque es el ...es el mism ...el mismo
fiscal ...es el que da la opinion de
que te den la eximicion.
AA: El fiscal de Venezuela.
MM: El fiscal no, el fiscal de Argentina.
GL: No, es una mujer la fiscal.
MM: [UJ]
GL : Y hasta ahora han dicho que no.
MM: Aja.
GL: La mujer, el juez, segun 10s diarios
dijo ...
MM: Cuan ...cuando ha ...cuando haya una
presion politics, ella va a decir que
si. iPor que se va despues a
retractar? i c o n que motivo va a
cambia el dictamen de no o si, o va
a tener ...volver a pedir ...
GL : 0 lo va a decir...
MM: ...la excarcelacion.
GL: ...la camara, si no lo dicen esos dos
porque ya estan comprometidos.
Because it's...it's the sam...the same
prosecutor ...is the one who renders the opinion
giving you immunity.
The prosecutor from Venezuela.
Not the prosecutor, the prosecutor from
Argentina.
No, the prosecutor is a woman.
And up to now they've said no.
According to the media, the woman, the judge,
said ...
Wh.. .when th.. .when there's political pressure,
she'll say yes. Why would she retract herself
later? For what reason would she change her
ruling from aye to nay, or will she have ...to ask
again...
Or the court will say ...
...the release from jail.
...so, if those two don't say so since they're
already committed.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
T a ~ Number
e / CD: R2a
MM: A lo mejor ella ya ...a lo mejor lo
dice ...
MM: ...la c h a r a de instancia superior.
FD: La camara alla es el ente superior.
GL : La camara de apelaciones en lo
penal economico es la que sigue
ahi ...
MM: : L Q U tiempo
~ hay entre la solicitud
de eximicion.. .cuando salga.. .?
i Q ~ tiempo
6 tiene el fiscal para
apelar de esa decision?
GL : Y yo diria...quince, veinte dias.
MM: 0 sea, que despu6s que 61 tenga la
eximicion, nosotros podemos
esperar a ver que el fiscal no
apele ...y si el fiscal no apela ...
GL: No, no, no.
MM: ...tu tienes garantia de que 61 no ...
no ...que no lo va a sacar.
GL : No, no. El fiscal tiene que apelar en
tres dias.
MM: Por eso. Si pasa la ...su apelacion,
ya no lo pueden echar pa' atras.
Perhaps she already.. .maybe the.. .
...the superior appeals court says so.
The court is the highest entity over there.
The criminal economic appeals court is the one
that follows there ...
How much time is there between the request
for immunity.. .when it is granted ...? How much
time does the prosecutor have to appeal that
decision?
Oh, I would say ...fifteen, twenty days.
In other words, after he has immunity, we can
wait to see that the prosecutor doesn't appeal ...
and if the prosecutor doesn't appeal ...
No, no, no.
...you're guaranteed that he won't.. .won't.. .that
he won't issue it.
No, no. The prosecutor needs to appeal within
three days.
That's why. If it passes.. .his appeal, they can't
roll it back.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

GL: No. Para, si hay una conexion ... Ah, No. Stop, if there's a connection ...Oh, no,
no, porque si la que ...si es cierto lo because if the one that ...if what I read is true,
que yo lei, la jueza tarnbien le nego the judge also denied the ...the ...immunity from
la.. .la.. .eximici6n de prision. prison.

FD: iC6m0 tu te ...c6mo hablaron 10s How did you ...how did the lawyers speak to
abogados contigo si no tienen you if they don't have access to the file?
acceso a1 expediente?

AA: iCuales abogados, Frank? What lawyers, Frank?

FD: Los que se reunieron contigo. The ones who met with you.

AA: Igual que esta hablando 61 conmigo. Just like he's talking with me.

FD : Bajo supuestos. Under suppositions.

AA: Claro. Sure.

GL: Entonces ...ahi ...eh, eh, si ya s...han So...there ...uh, uh, if. ..they have given an
opinado, es muy dificil ...que digan lo opinion, it's very difficult ...for them to say the
contrario. opposite.

MM: Okey, per0 la pregunta es ... Okay, but the question is ...

GL : Pero ... But ...

MM: Hipoteticamente... Hipothetically ...

GL: ...pero tenemos la camara ... ...but we have the court...

MM: ...hipotkticamente, cuando eso ...hipothetically, when that reaches the court
llegue a la camara, y la c h a r a and the court decides in favor, does that go to a
decida a favor, jeso tiene una higher court?
instancia superior?

GL: Eh, no, no. 0 sea, no. Porque si Uh, no, no. In other words, no. Because if [UI]
[UI] sube a la camara, eh ... it goes up to the court, uh ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape- Number / CD: R2a
--

MM: Y ~ l camara
a ... And the court...

GL: No, no. [UI] No, no. [UI]

MM: ...y la cimara es un ...tribunal ...and is the court a...three-judge tribunal?

colegiado?

GL: Tres. Three.

MM: Son tres jueces. 0 sea... They're three judges. In other words ...

GL : Uno de 10s que esta ...si se mantiene
la misma, porque esto h e por una
cuestion de competencia. A la jueza,
el ...el ...el director de aduana ...la ...
eh, eh, le dijo a la jueza ...que habia
actuado ma1 en ese asunto porque
no la encontro para consultarla.
One of the ones that are ...if the same one
remains, because this was a matter of
jurisdiction. The ...the ...the customs director ...
uh, uh, told the judge ...that she had acted
poorly in this matter because he was unable to
locate and consult with her.

GL: Entonces, la jueza se...excuso. Dijo,
"Yo no quiero [UI] Entonces, el juez
que le toco dijo ..."No, esto esta
mal." Entonces, fue a la camara y la
camara decidi6 que debia seguir
actuando la jueza. Que no ...y eso no
era motivo para excusarse. No sC si
me ...
Then the judge ...recused herself. She said, "I
don't want [UI] Then, the judge that was
assigned said ..."No, this is wrong." So, it went
to the court and the court decided that the
judge must continue handling the matter. That
no ...that there was no reason for her to recuse
herself. I don't know if I...

AA: No entiendo. I don't understand.

GL: 0 sea, que ...ya estaria fijada la In other words, that ...the court had already
camara. decided.

MM: iAh? ~Quieresotro? Oh? Do you want another?

[PORCION IN] 1 [UI PORTION]

File Number: MM-109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
T q e Number 1-CD: R2a
- - - --.
- .-
GL: Uno de 10s tres ...miembros de la
c h a r a , de esa sala de la
camara ...No es de esa sala, es de
otra. Porque hay una vacante. Son
tres, pero hay una vacante.
Entonces, la llena el otro. Uno de
10s que voto siempre ha dicho que el
dinero no era mercaderia.
AA: iEl dinero era.. .era.. .?
GL: No era mercadena.
AA : Okey.
GI,: 0 sea, que no se puede hacer ...un
contra ...Aqui no es contrabando
porque no hay engafio y no hay
ardid. Pero, ademas, eh ...ese dice
que el dinero no es mercaderia. Y
en ...
FD: Pero por lo menos no fue
contrabando.
GL: ...sin mercaderia, no hay
contrabando.
MM: Porque ademas el. ..los dblares,
legalmente, son propiedad del gob ...
de la Reserva Federal de 10s
Estados Unidos de AmQica.
AA: Aja.
MM: Los dolares ...
GL: Para que haya contrabando ...
One of the three ...members of the court, of that
division of the court... It's not that division, it's
another. Because there's a vacancy. They're
three, but there's a vacancy. So, it's filled by the
other one. One of those who voted has always
held that the money wasn't merchandise.
The money was ...was ...?
It wasn't merchandise.
Okay.
That is, there can't be ...a contra ...This isn't
contraband because there's no deceit and no
ruse. But, in addition, uh ...that one says that
money isn't merchandise. And in ...
But at least it wasn't contraband.
...without merchandise, there's no contraband.
Because furthermore, the ...the dollars, legally,
are the property of the gov ...of the Federal
Reserve of the United States of America.
Uh-huh.
The dollars ...
[SCI
For there to be contraband ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD:--
R2a - .- ---

MM: ...son canjeables [UI] la Reserva ...can be exchanged [UI] the Federal Reserve
Federal en oro. [UI] De su into gold. [UI] Its property.
propiedad.

FD : LO ves? You see it?

AA: No, no lo entiendo. No, I don't understand.

MM: No. Legalmente, esto es una ...esto
es una. ..una acotacion que yo te
hago. Todos 10s dolares ...del
mundo, que esthn...todos 10s que
estan emitidos, se consideran
propiedad de la Reserva Federal. ..el
billete. Y lo que es tu propiedad ...es
su contravalor en oro. iMe
entiendes?
No. Legally, this is a...this is a...a comment of
mine. All the dollars ...in the world, that are ...all
those that have been issued, are considered to
be property of the Federal Reserve ...the bills.
And what belongs to you ...is their countervalue
in gold. You understand?

AA : Ya. Okay.

MM: Tu negocias ...con 10s dolares. 0
sea, del punto de vista estrictamente
juridico, el billete es ...propiedad del
ban ...de la Reserva Federal y lo que
es tuyo ...son 10s dolar ...lo ...el oro
que garantiza a esos billetes.
Importante.
You trade ...with the dollars. That is, from a
strictly legal point of view, the bills are ...the
property of the ban.. .of the Federal Reserve
and what's yours ...are the dollar...the ...the gold
that guarantees those bills. Important.

AA: Y, ieso no lo hace contrabando? And doesn't that make it contraband?

MM: Lo que ...te quiero decir que eso no What ...I want to tell you is that isn't
es mercader ...no es ... mercandi ...it's not ...

AA : Ah. Oh.

MM: ...no son ... ...they're not.. .

[SCI

FD : No es mercaderia. It's not merchandise.

File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
MM: No s...no es mercaderia.
FD: Mercaderia es el oro que esta en el
Banco Central.
GL: Bueno ...
FD: Es un recibo.
GL: De todas maneras, la mayoria dice
que es mercaderia. Pero ...10s otros
dos jueces de esa camara, uno ...que
recibe plata ...y el otro, yo lo
conozco mucho per0 esto no
garantiza nada. Es muy hablante, es
muy politico.
FD: [NSA]
MM: [FUSA]
GL: 0 sea, que te diria ...que si tenemos
acuerdo politico, la camara puede
ayudar. Lo que no te puede pasar a
vos es que te agarren aqui. Y que te
lleven preso alla. Porque en un
tiempo, por lo menos hasta nuestras
elecciones, si Chavez hace pesar
mucho, [UI] Despues esta la corte,
yo creo que la corte si sale de
esto ...pero... [Ul] lo que no te
pueden hacer es agarrarte a vos
aqui.
AA: Por eso. Ando como...ando, ando
escondido.
MM: Por eso no podemos esperar. iMe
It's not ...it's not merchandise.
The gold on deposit at the Central Bank is
merchandise.
Well ...
It's a receipt.
Anyway, the majority says that it's
merchandise. But ...the other two judges of that
court, one ...who receives money ...and the
other, I know him very well but this is no
guarantee of anything. He's very talkative, he's
very political.
[LAUGHTER]
[LAUGHTER]
In other words, I would say...that if we have a
political understanding, the court can help.
What you can't do is let yourself get caught
here. And have you taken to jail over there.
Because within some time, at least until our
elections, if Chavez applies a lot of weight, [UI]
Then there's the court, I think the court will
take care of this ...but ... [UI] what they can't do
is catch you here.
That's why. I'm like ...I'm, I'm hiding out.
I That's why we can't wait. You understand?
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
entiendes? Que ...alla tiene que
haber alguien diciendo.. .
GL: No pierdes nada ...no pierdes nada
si vas haciendo 10s tramites ahora ...
porque.. .suponte que.. .perdamos en
la. ..en la.. .la camara. Porque es
antes del veintiocho de octubre y a1
gobierno no le conviene. 0 , porque
si el gobierno te quiere ayudar y...y
quiere esperar a1 veintiocho de
octubre, eh, eh, le dice, flaco,
sacamela el veintinueve. A la
cimara. No sC si me explico. Y si
no, tenemos la corte. Pero eso ya
tenemos dos, tres meses mhs.
MM: Mira, C1 es un profesional muy serio
y no te puede ...hablar de la manera
en que te voy a hablar yo. Pero.. .
todo el mundo en Venezuela esta
cagado por ti. Todos quieren que tu
salgas del pe'o. Todos quieren ...que
se resuelva tu asunto para que la
verdad no salga a la luz. Todos
quieren eso. Inclusive 10s
argentinos. ..que. ..ya arreglaron su
pe'o politico y hicieron que uno
renunciara y pidieron que renunciara
Diego y...movieron sus cosas para
atenuar politicamente lo que
significo ese escindalo ...pero ellos
tampoco quieren que la verdad
salga a la luz. Entonces, eso ...es tu
mejor garantia de que vas a tener el
apoyo politico para que eso [UI]
AA : Okey, per0 yo hasta ahora me he
portado, tu sabes, como. ..como.. .o
sea, como me pidieron, pues.
1 There must be somebody over there saying ...
You don't lose anything ...you don't lose
anything if you start the proceedings now ...
because ...suppose that ...we lose in the ...in the ...
the court. Because it's before the twenty-eighth
of October and it's not in the government's
interest. Or, because if the government wants to
help you and...and wants to wait until the
twenty-eighth of October, uh, uh, it'll say, pal,
get it out on the twenty-ninth. To the court. I'm
not sure if I make myself clear. But for that we
still have two, three more months.
Listen, he's a very serious professional and he
can't ...talk to you like I'm going to talk to you.
But ...everybody in Venezuela is fucking afraid
for you. Everybody wants you to get out of the
mess. They all want ...your mess resolved so the
truth doesn't come out. They all want that.
Including the Argentines.. .who...already settled
their political mess and made one person resign
and asked for Diego's resignation and ...
arranged their things in order to temper
politically what this scandal means ...but they
don't want the truth to come out either. So,
that ...is your best guarantee that you'll have the
political support for that to [UI]
Okay, but up to now I've behaved, you know,
like ...like ...in other words, like they asked me
to.
File Number: MM- 109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
MM: Claro.
AA: Callate la boca. Me call6 la boca.
Este ...
MM: Claro, per0 ...pe...Tu...tu tienes que
seguir dando esas seiiales. Sin
embargo, como tu defensa ...eh, te
decimos que es conveniente que
ellos...que nosotros le hagamos
presidn a ellos para que resuelvan el
tema. Porque ...si e...
FD: [UI] claro, tenemos que darle las
herramientas a ella para que ellos
resuelvan el tema. Hasta ahorita ...no
se la hemos dado. Piensa [UI] el
abogado. [Ul]
MM: 0 sea, porque sin tu participation
es ...
FD : [UI] es necesario ...
MM: ...es imposible arreglar todo el
problema.
FD: ...es...es necesario que.. .
MM: ,..sin que eso sea un escandalo.
.que ...q ue t6 te defiendas.
GL: Le queda otra ...
FD: Porque sino la ...
GL: ...la ...
Sure.
Shut your mouth. I shut my mouth. Uh ...
Sure, but ...bu ...You ...you have to continue
giving those signals. However, as your
defense ...uh, we're telling you it's good that
they ...that we pressure them to settle the
matter. Because.. .if...
[UI] sure, we have to give her the tools for
them to settle the matter. Until now ...we haven't
given them to her. Think [UI] the attorney. [UI]
I In other words, without your involvement it's...
[UI] is necessary...
...it's impossible to fix the whole problem.
...it's ...it's necessary to. ..
...without that being a scandal.
...that...that you defend yourself.
He's left with another ...
Because if not the ...
I ...the ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
FD: ...otra es que te agarran. Y te toca
defenderte por la fuerza, per0 ya,
cofio, ya agarrado.
MM: No, no, y ademas que ...
FD: [UI] trat ...de evitar.
MM: El me explicaba ayer. No es lo
mismo el inimo politico, el inimo
del juez, el inimo de la opinion
publica ...cuando tu vas ...y, le dices,
aqui esta mi abogado, me estoy ...
defendiendo. Liberenme la vaina si
quiere que yo venga a...a rendir
declaracion. No es lo mismo eso de
que te agarren y te lleven.
FD: No es lo mismo.
AA: Bueno, y...y...y...Es que mi gran
miedo es ese porque.. .yo...yo
nombro un abogado antes de las
elecciones, jverdad? Que todo esta
tan candela y...me van a ir a buscar.
FD: No, per0 ya tienes un abogado. Ya
tienes adelantado el camino,
hermano.
MM: jAdonde te van a ir a buscar?
AA: Aqui.
MM: Pero, jcual es la diferencia?
GL : No, no entiendo ...
...another [thing] is to catch you. And you have
no option but to defend yourself but, damn,
you're already caught.
No, no, and besides, that ...
[UI] try ...to avoid [it].
He was explaining to me yesterday. The
political temper is not the same, the judge's
temper, the temper of public opinion ...when
you go ...and tell them, here's my lawyer, I'm ...
defending myself. Lift the thing if you want me
to come to ...to deliver a statement. That's not
the same as ...as being caught and taken.
It's not the same.
Well, and...and...and...lt's just that my big fear
is that because ...I...I appoint a lawyer before
the elections, right? When everything is so
inflamed that ...they'll go and fetch me.
No, but you already have a lawyer. You've
already paved the way.
[SCI
Where will they go and fetch you?
Here.
But, what's the difference?
No, I can't understand ...
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
--- - -
- -
MM: Si te quieren bu ...
GL: ...lo qui estan discutiendo con el
piano [UI:]
M: Espera. Vamos a mudarnos pa' otra
mesa.
MM: Si, vamos a pedirle una muda de
mesa. Ehh...
GL: Eh, no, no importa. Sigamos aca. Si,
porque.. .
MM: Lo que ...lo que...lo que 61 esta
preguntando.. .
GL: ...mejor porque no nos oyen de otro
lado. Y ademas no te mov6s mucho
asi.
AA: Okey.
MM: El ...61 esta planteando ...de que ...si
nombrara abogado ahorita.. .
accionaria a la justicia para que lo
persiguiera. Es que ya todo lo que
esta.. .todo lo que internacionalmente
hay que hacer para perseguirte,
esta. iC6m0 funciona? Bueno. Una
orden de conduccion. No se
presento. Una orden.. .de captura a
traves de Interpol. Interpol ya te
tiene en el sistema ...y asi funciona.
If they want to fe ...
...what you're discussing -with the piano [UI]
Wait. Let's move to another table.
Yes, let's ask them for a table change. Uhh...
Uh, no, it doesn't matter. Let's stay here. Yes,
because ...
What.. .what.. .what he's asking.. .
...better because they can't hear us from
another side. And also because that way you
don't have to move much.
Okay.
He ...he's raising the point ...that.. .if appointing a
lawyer now ...would trigger the justice system to
pursue him. It's just that everything that's ...
everything that needs to be done internationally
to hunt you down, is in place. How does it
work? Well. An arrest warrant. It wasn't
presented. A warrant for ...capture through
Interpol. Interpol already has you in the
system ...and that's how it works. Some day, at
some event, in some thing, Interpol grabs
somebody who's.. .out there.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
A l g h dia, en algun evento, en
alguna vaina, Interpol agarra a
alguien que este... por ahi.
GL : No, es a1 reves. Pues, nombrando
defensor vos estas diciendo, yo
quiero entrar a esta causa per0
dejenme entrar en...pero no preso.
Yo t...yo traigo aqui escrito a mano
un ...un... un escrito para que tu mires
a ver si te ...te [UT] Y despues hay
otra cosa que...q ue yo me olvide de
decirte ayer. Que...q ue ya es muy
importante. Toda persona que...esta
imputada de...de un delito ...tiene
derecho a hacer una presentacion
que se llama espontinea ...q ue se
hace por escrito. Eso te ...a...a vos
te da un arma...o a ti, no se como
dicen ustedes, te da un arma muy
importante. Porque.. .si vos, eh,
haces la presentacion espontanea,
no tenes que ir a llevarla. La llevo
yo. Firmas vos y la llevo yo. En la
presentacion espontinea vos.. .in...
inventamos.. .alguna...a.. .alguna cosa
que no 10s...deje ma1 a ellos.
AA: Que no 10s deje mal.
GL: Eh, que no ...eh, que no sea la
verdad. Eh, que...que ...q ue, ah, que
la valija era de Uberti.
MM: [RISA]
GL: Y era para las elecciones de
Cristina.
AA: Pa' que...es que yo no se pa' que
No, quite the opposite. By appointing a defense
attorney, you are saying, I want to join this case
but let me in ...though not imprisoned. I b...I
have here a handwritten.. .a...a writing for you
to see if [UI] And then there's another thing
that ...that I forgot to tell you yesterday.
Which ...which is very important. Everybody
who ...is accused of...of an offense...has the
right to make an appearance voluntary... which
is done in writing. That ...gives you a weapon ...
or, I don't know you all say it, it gives you a
very important weapon. Because ...if you, uh,
make the voluntary appearance, you don't have
to go and deliver it. I take it with me. You sign
and I take it. In the voluntary appearance you.. .
we make up ...some...some thing that ... won't
make them look bad.
That won't make them look bad.
Uh, that doesn't...uh, that isn't the truth. Uh,
that. ..that. ..that, uh, that the suitcase belonged
to Uberti.
[CHUCKLE]
And it was for Cristina's elections.
I For ...the thing is I don't know what it was for.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
era.
GL: iEh?
M: Yo para que era, no se.
GL: [UI] Suponte. Eh ...vos ya le das ...le
das la seiial politica ...a1 gobierno
argentino.. .
MM: De que no lo vas a vender.
GL: ...de que ...que no estas dispuesto a
[UI] Y a Chavez tambien. Con lo
cual Chavez puede presionar a1
gobierno argentino a traves de...
de ...de ...de [UI]
MM: Y jcual puede ser la motivacion ...?
Yo queria ... le ...y o hubiera
declarado si me hubieran dado la
planilla, per0 ... nunca se nos entrego
la planilla.
GL: Bueno ...Para, todo lo que estamos
hablando.. .ehh, Alejandro.. .eh, es...
hipotetico hasta que yo lea ...el ...el
expediente.
MM: Y...y, ique necesitas tu pa' poder
leer el expediente?
GL: Que el me nombre. Que el me
nombre, que ...q ue ...q ue lo ...
rubrique un escribano y que...que a
la firma del escribano la rubrique
alguna autoridad, ehh...
Huh?
I don't know what it was for.
[UI:] Suppose. Uh.. .you give.. .you give the
political sign...to the Argentine government ...
That you're not going to sell them out.
...that ...that you're not willing to [UI] And to
Chavez too. With which Chavez can pressure
the Argentine government by way of.. .of...
of. ..of [UI]
And what could be the motivation ...? I
wanted ...I would have declared if they had
given me the form, but ...we were never given
the form.
Well.. .Stop, everything we're talking about ...
uhh, Alejandro...uh, is ...hypothetical until I
read.. .the...the file.
And ...and what do you need to be able to read
the file?
That he appoint me. That he appoint me,
that ...that ...that it be signed by a special notary
and that ...that the special notary's signature be
signed by some authority, uhh ...
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: No, eso ... No, that ...

GL: ...de Esta ... ...from the Unit ...

MM: ...eso. ..si.. . ...that ...if.. .

GL: ...de Estados Unidos. I ...from the United States.

MM: ...si.. .eso se hace ... ...if. ..that's done ...

GL: Aunque el no sea argentino. Even if he's not Argentine.

MM: ...eh ...eh ...con un notario. Des ... ...uh ...uh ...with a notary public. Aft...then you
despues se va a1...a1 County Clerk go to the ...the County Clerk here. There ...
aqui. Ahi se...

GL: Bueno, por eso. Right, that's why.

MM: ...se legaliza a1 escribano [UI] ...the special notary is legalized [UI:]

GL : Claro. [UI] Sure. [UI]

FD: El notario puede ser Karim. Karim Karim can be the notary public. Karim is a
es notario. notary public.

MM: Cualquiera. Whichever.

GL: Pero, ehh...que tu nombres abogado But, uhh...that you appoint a lawyer is better ...
es mejor ...no me estoy buscando un I'm not looking for work ...
trabaj 0...

AA: No, yo lo estoy escuchando. No, I'm listening to you.

GL: Quiero ser absolutamente sincero. I want to be completely sincere. Uh, for you to
Eh, que tu nombres un abogado y appoint a lawyer and say, I want to present
que digas, quiero presentarme.. . myself. ..but I want to appear after exercising
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
pero, quiero presentarme
previamente de salvar mi derecho.
~Porquevoy a ir ...presentanne
preso si puedo presentarme en
libertad? Es lo que vas a decir vos.
Es distinto de estar desaparecido.
MM: Y tu no te escapaste. Porque
cuando tu saliste de Argentina no
habia nada en tu contra.
AA: Nada.
MM: A ti ahi te dijeron, aqui esta tu
infraction, tu firmaste tu vaina, tu
dijiste tu [UT] ~ te fuiste por el
aeropuerto, tu no ...El no salio
fugado.
GL: Pero, ya sC. Claro.
MM: Bueno. Entonces. ..
GL: Porque la.. .el k i c o argumento.. .
para no darte la eximicion de prision
es que ...es que ...es que
te ...quisiste ...escapaste. Y vos no te
escapaste. Es un invent0 de ellos.
AA: Claro que si.
GL: Pero es el unico motivo que...que
admite el codigo para ...para no
dhrtela. Entonces, que tu te
mantengas ...sin decir ni "A" profugo,
le das la razon a ellos. Se quiere
mantener profugo. En cambio, si
VOS ...
my rights. Why would I present myself as a
prisoner if I can present myself as a free man.
It's what you're going to say. It's different than
being missing.
And you didn't flee. Because there was nothing
against you when you left Argentina.
Nothing.
They told you, here's your infraction, you
signed your thing, you said your [UI] you left
by the airport, you didn't ...He didn't flee as a
fugitive..
But I know. Of course.
A1 right. So...
Because the.. .the only argument.. .to deny you
immunity from prison is that ...is that ...is that
you ...tried to ...you fled. And you didn't flee.
They're making that up.
Of course.
But it's the only reason that ...that the code
allows ...to deny you. So, if you remain ...
without saying "A" fugitive, you acknowledge
that they're right. He wants to remain fugitive.
Whereas, if you.. .
 File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
-
[SCI
FD: [UI] otros abogados.
GL: ...estas diciendo.. .nombro un
abogado.
AA: Yo tengo que ir para alla.
GL: Nombre [UI] Pido la eximicidn de
prisidn. Ha ...hacks la presentacidn
espontknea. El escrito donde
explicas. ..
FD: Asi no tienes que ir.
GL: Todo esto sin ir. Es decir, yo voy a
ir el dia que me den la eximicidn de
prisidn [UI] Porque es mi derecho.
MM: No, tu no puedes ir antes. Si tu te
vas antes.. .
GL: Y despuks...si ahi tenemos ayuda
politica, eh.. .que...que haya una
garantia absoluta de que despues...
no te van a carnbiar nada de eso. Es
dificil, per0 ... [UI]
AA: Y...y jquien me garantiza eso?
GL: Eh, Kirchner y Chavez.
MM: Okey.
AA: Kirchner y Chavez. Bueno, per0 ...
n...no me han dado nada ...jsabes?
0 sea...
[SCI
[UI] other lawyers.
...are saying...I appoint a lawyer.
I have to go over there.
Appoint [UI] I request immunity from prison.
You make the voluntary appearance. The
writing where you explain ...
I That way you don't have to go.
All this without going. In other words, I'm going
to go when they give me immunity from prison
[UI] Because it's my right.
No, you can't go before. If you go before ...
And later ...if we have political influence,
uh ...that ...there's an absolute guarantee that
later ...they won't change any of that. It's
difficult, but ... [UI]
And ...and who can guarantee that?
Uh, Kirchner and Chavez.
I Okay.
Kirchner and Chavez. Okay, but.. .they haven't
given me anything ...you know? In other
words ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a --
FD: iC6m0 que no, Alejandro? En
Venezuela no te han atacado,
chamo.
GL: Pero yo estoy aqui...yo estoy aqui ...
MM: No, per0 ...pero, Alejandro...
GL: ...por.. .
lVlM : ...no ...no te han dado nada.
MM: Yo ...yo m e ...yo...yo...
FD: No, en Venezuela no lo han atacado
[UII
MM: ...pero yo compro tu version. No te
han dado nada. Antes de ir ...para
alla, vamos a tener cinco o seis
muestras claras...de si estamos
apoyados o no estamos apoyados.
Y esas muestras claras son...eh, que
admitida la defensa ...de el ...te den a
ti la exoneracion de prision. Eso es
una muestra ...clara de que hay
disposicion. ~ P o r q u pa'
e que te van
a dar la exoneracion de prision ...pa'
despues, este...q uitirtela? Primera.
Segunda. Ehh...En Venezuela no
hay ...ni media accion en tu contra.
Que eventualmente...si ellos
quisieran, pudieran hacerlo por no
haber declarado la salida...la ...
What do you mean, Alejandro? They haven't
attacked you in Venezuela, man.
But I'm here ...I'm here ...
No, but ...but, Alejandro ...
...for...
...they haven't.. .haven't given you anything.
...for him ...
No, they haven't attacked him in Venezuela
[UII
...but I'll buy your version. They haven't given
you anything. Before going ...over there, we'll
have five or six clear signs ...of whether we have
support or we don't. And those clear signs
are...uh, that once his defense has been
accepted ...they give you the immunity from
prison. That's clear ...proof of willingness. Why
would they grant you immunity from prison ...
uh, only to take it away later? First. Second.
Uhh...Therels isn't ...no action has been brought
against you in Venezuela. That eventually.. .if
they wanted to, they could do so for not having
declared the exit ...the ...
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number
- / CD: R2a
AA: [UI]
MM: ...la exportacion de las divisas. Que
esa es ...una ...una patica coja que ...
despues te explico yo como ...como
puede resolverse. Este, per0 que
ese es pa' mi es el ultimo pe'o. Lo
primer0 es lo que ...
AA: Coiio, per0 ese pe'o es grave
porque en Venezuela ...eso si es
carcel, jno?
MM: No.
AA: jNo?
MM: No. [UI]
FD: No, la ley no esta ...
MM: La Ley de llicitos Cambiarios tiene
tantos vacios y tantas vainas que ...
ahi tienes una multa per0 no te la
[UII
FD: Vielma Mora declaro ayer...que eso
no competia a1 Seniat. Y declaro
que Venoco era una empresa
ejemplar en su declaracion de
impuestos. Que era ...supervisada
constantemente. Por ser una
empresa modelo en declaracion de
impuesto. Lo dijo publicarnente.. .lo
public6 por todos 10s medios.
...the export of currency. That's.. .a.. .a fly in the
ointment that.. .I'll explain to you later how.. .
how it can be resolved. Uh, but this is the last
mess, as far as I'm concerned. The first thing is
what ...
Damn, but that mess is serious because in
Venezuela ...that's jail, right?
No.
No?
No. [UI]
No, the law isn't ...
The Law on lllegal Exchange Practices has so
many loopholes and so many things that ...you
have a fine but they won't [UI]
Vielma Mora declared yesterday ...that that
wasn't a matter for Seniat. And he stated that
Venoco was a model company regarding its tax
declaration. That it was ...constantly supervised.
For being a model company regarding its tax
declaration. He said it publicly ...he made that
statement throughout the media.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
M : Bueno, si, per0 tambien han dicho
otros que ...que ...
FD : El ha dicho ...el ...que el
vice-presidente de la Asamblea, que
es un huevon que ni sabe donde esta
parado. ..quien ha dicho. ..el...tu
sabes ...10s que han dicho ...
cualquier barbaridad, son la gente ...
que esta tocandote ...q ue estan en
poder, per0 esta desinformados. 0
sea, que estan de ...llenadores de
vacio. Llenadores de huecos. Pero
la gente...eh, digamos, 10s
medulares ... per ...Ministro de
Interior y Justicia ...Vice ministro de
Interior y Justicia ...Presidente del
Seniat... ehh ...Fiscal General de la
Republics, esos si han dado las
seiiales...completicas de que ...cero
pe'o.
M : Porque hay un ...hay ...por
supuesto ...hay mil problemas.
MM: Uh-huh.
M : Pero explicame ...el de Venezuela,
okey. Si es so10 esto, la mentira se
va pa' Venezuela ...y jc6m0
resuelvo yo el rollo aqui?
MM: El ...de...jr0110 de que?
FD: Si tu no saliste de aqui con plata.
AA: Bueno, yo apareci con ochocientos
mil dolares.
MM: De ...desde el punto de vista legal en
Well, yes, but others have also said that ...that ...
He's said ...the ...that the Vice-President of the
[National] Assembly, who's an idiot that
doesn't know squat ...who's said...the ...y ou
know ...those who've said outrageous stuff, are
the people ... who are touching you ...who are in
power, but who're misinformed. In other
words, who are acting as. ..vacuum fillers. Hole
fillers. But the people ...let's say, the core
ones...Minister of Interior and Justice ...deputy
Minister of Interior and Justice ...President of
Seniat ...uhh ...the Attorney General of the
Republic, those have sent out clear signals...
of. ..zero trouble.
Because there's a...thereVs...ofcourse ...there's a
thousand problems.
But explain to me ...the one from Venezuela,
okay. If it's only this, the lie goes to
Venezuela ...and how do I fix this mess here?
The.. .of.. .what mess?
If you didn't leave here with money.
Well, I showed up with eight hundred thousand
dollars.
I Fr.. .from a legal point of view in Venezuela.. .
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
Venezuela ...el control de cambio ...
esta desde el dos ...desde el dos mil
tres. Tu ...tu ...perfectamente podias
tener ese dinero ...con anterioridad
a1 2003.
FD: Peor, Alejandro, lo puedo tener yo.
MM: Lo podia tener el.
FD: Y yo te dije a ti ..."Llevate ...llkvate
sesenta mil." Y tu agarraste la
maleta con ochocientos.
MM: No, bueno, esas ya son otros ...
FD: Pero, espkrate.
MM: Si, si, eso es un ...
FD: Un par de bolas. Y ya no tienes el
pe'o tu. Lo tengo yo. Tu te liberaste.
Quedaste como el grandisimo
carajo buena-nota, que se llev6 la
maleta equivocada. Y vienen las
bu ...las baterias pa' mi. Y 10s
medios van felices. ~Entiendes?Yo
vere si tengo las suficientes
declaraciones.. .de que yo soy capaz
de mover eso. Y tu no tienes ya
pe'o aqui. 0 sea, soluciones para
eso es ...paso dos. Primero,
defiendete.
MM: No, ahorita ...ahorita [UI]
FD: Ahorita, eres un profugo sin
defensa. Eso es lo primero.
exchange controls ...exist since two ...since two
thousand three. You ...y ou ...could perfectly well
have had that money ...prior to 2003.
Worse, Alejandro, I could have it.
He could have had it.
And I told you ..."Take ...take sixty thousand."
And you grabbed the suitcase with eight
hundred.
No, well, those are other ...
But, wait up.
Yes, yes, that's a...
A pair of curve balls. And you no longer have
the problem. I have it. You freed yourself. You
emerge as the big do-good asshole, who
carried off the wrong suitcase. And the
batteries then point to me. And the media is
delighted. You understand? I'll see if I have
enough statements...if I'm capable of moving
that. And you no longer have a problem here.
In other words, the solutions for that is...step
two. First, defend yourself.
No, now ...now [UI]
Right now, you're a fugitive without a defense.
That's number one.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a ,

MM: Tu ...tu ya has hablado con mucha You ...you've already talked to many people ...
gente.. .

PC1

FD: Paso dos, de contar la verdad o no Step two, to tell the truth or not [UI]
[UII

No, no. Yo no he hablado.

lSC1
No. no. I haven't talked.
AA:

MM: No, no... No, no ...

AA: Yo con 10s unicos que he hablado I've only spoken with the people from PDVSA.
f i e la gente de PDVSA.

MM: Okey. Okay.

AA: Con mas nadie. With nobody else.

MM: Fijate. Entre Venez ...entre Estados
Unidos y Argentina, existe de
reciente data ...un tratado de
extradicion. Y yo extradito a mi
nacional y tu me extraditas a...a mis
nacionales con ...iq uC pena, con quC
delito?
Look. There is a recent ...extradition treaty
between Venez ...between the United States
and Argentina. And I extradite my national and
you extradite ...my nationals with ...what
punishment, for what offense?

GL: Con un delito que tenga pena de ... For an offense punishable with ...with a year or
de un d o o mas. more.

MM: Con un delito de pena de un aiio o For an offense punishable with a year or more.
mas. 0 sea, que ...este ...maiiana ... In other words, that ...uh ...tomorrow ...it can
puede ...puede ... be ...can be ...

GL: Si...ah...si te detienen y...y If. ..uh ...if they arrest you and ...and if Argentina,
Argentina, eh, hace 10s tramites de uh, handles the formal extradition proceedings
extradicion formalmente bien, estas properly, you're at a disadvantage.
en desventaja.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
MM: L A Usiendo
~ 61 ciudadano
americano?
GL: Aun siendo ciudadano. Ha.. .hace.. .
hace muchos afios 10s tratados ...
internacionales no concedian la
extradicion del ...del nacional y 10s
juzgaban ellos. Ahora, ]...la mayoria
de 10s tratados tienen ...Estados
Unidos y Argentina, en particular,
dice..,concretamente que dan la
extradicion del nacional. Un
argentino viene para aca si lo pide la
justicia de Estados Unidos y un ...
norteamericano se va para alla si lo
pide la justicia argentina.
FD: ~ S a b e lo
s que quiero, Alex?
GL: Es lo primer0 ...
GL: ..que tuviese ...
FD: Quiero ... 0 sea, no quiero que estCs
en el punto ...del carajo que estaba
sobre el hrbol ...y le decian,
"Hermano, bajate." "No, no, que
Dios me ayuda." Y despuCs
pasaban 10s carajos con la balsa.
"Hermano, bajate." "No, es que
Dios me ayuda." Y despuCs
viene ...Entonces, cuando se fue el
carajo, lleg6 a1 cielo. Y le dijo,
"Coiio, Dios. No joda, no me
salvaste." "No, huevon, [UI] yo te
mandC como cinco, cofio. No
paraste bola. Ahora te jodiste."
~Entiendes?
Even if he's an American citizen?
Even being a citizen. Many years ago ...
international treaties ...didn't grant extradition
of. ..of nationals and prosecuted them
themselves. Now, m...most treaties have ...
United States and Argentina, in particular, it
says ...specifically that they grant the extradition
of nationals. An Argentine comes here if U.S.
justice requests him and an ...American goes
there if Argentina's justice requests him.
You know what I want, Alex?
It's the first ...
...that would have..
I want ... In other words, I don't want you in the
position ...of the guy who was up in the tree ...
and they were telling him, "Get down, brother."
"No, no, God will help me." And then came the
guys with the barge. "Brother, get down." "No,
God will help me." And then come ...So, when
the guy left, he arrived in heaven. And he said
to him, "Damn, God. Shit, you didn't save me."
"No, you asshole, [UI] I sent you about five,
damn you. You wouldn't pay attention. Now
you're screwed." You understand?
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
MM: Mira. Y sea cual sea la position.
La ...pasividad y la inactividad no es
tu aliado. Bajo el argument0 de que
tu eres un contumaz a presentarte
ante la justicia, el hecho de no
nombrar un abogado lo que hace, es
certificarlo. Si mientras mas tiempo
pase, mas va tener quien se oponga
a ti ...eh, argumentos para decir ...
"Pero si hace cuatro ... meses ...0 si
hace cinco meses, que lo
estamos ...pidiendo y, jahorita es
que va a aparecer? jComo le
vamos a dar la...la eximicihn de
prision? Si...fijate, estuvo tanto
tiempo fuera y.. .quC garantia tengo
yo de que [UI.]
FD: HuyCndole a la justicia. Vino a
repartir la justicia porque lo
agarraron.
MM: Ahora.. .ahora es.. .ahora es logico...
que tu te presentes ahora, bueno, se
par6 el zaperoco y hub0 un
escandalo. ..
FD: Los medios te ...te espantaron [UI]
MM: Eh, 10s medios te pasaron. Vinieron
10s...para aca 10s argentinos a
meterse en tu casa. En tu negocio,
en tu vaina, en tu vida.
FD: Tienes argumentos. [UI]
Look. And whatever the position. The ...
passiveness and inactivity are not your allies.
Based on the argument that you are in contempt
of court, that you failed to appear before
justice, the fact of not appointing an attorney,
merely confirms it. The longer you wait,
whoever opposes you ...uh, will have more
arguments to say..."But it's been four.. .months...
Or, it's been five months that we've been ...
requesting him and, it's now that he's going to
appear? How can we give him immunity from
prison? If. ..look, he was away for so long
and...what guarantee do I have that [UI]
Fleeing from justice. He came to hand out
justice because they caught him.
Now ...now is ...now it's logical ...that you
appear now, well, the row ended and there was
a scandal ...
The media ...spooked you [UI]
Uh, the media showed you. They came ...the
Argentines came here to intrude in your house.
In your business, in your thing, in your life.
You have arguments. [UI]
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
MM: LTUentiendes? Entonces, coiio, yo
me calme, yo me afecte de 10s
nervios y...Despues, veremos. Yo
se lo decia a Cl ...yo se lo decia a C1
hace ...y o se lo decia a 61 y 61 me
decia que ...ahorita no es
recomendable analizarlo per0
tambien.. .podemos analizar ...en un.. .
en una eventualidad ...dependiendo
c6mo este la situaci6n politica en
Argentina en cuanto a1 caso.
DespuCs de que te den la eximicion
de prisibn, presentarnos con un
informe medico de esos
arrechisimos que diga que tu no
puedes viajar por el estado en que
te encuentras...y ver si podemos
re. ..rendir declaraci6n aqui ante ...
ante el consulado. El me dice que no
es facil per0 tampoco es imposible
de que eso pase. Pero lo primero
que necesitas es la eximici6n de
prision. ~Entiendes?
GL: Yo ...yo no quiero hablarte mas para
que no parezca que te quiero
convencer, eh, que estoy aqui para
convencerte. Tu preguntame lo que
quieras. iEh? [UI]
AA: No, no, no. A mi lo que me
preocupa es el tema politico.
Porque yo.. .yo...yo.. .Okey,
perfecto. Es ...es muy valido lo que
me estas diciendo y lo creo.
jverdad? Y.. .y les creo lo que me
You understand? So, damn it, I calmed down,
it affected my nerves and...Welll see, later. I
was telling him ...I was telling him ...I was telling
him and he was telling me ...it's not a good idea
to analyze it now but also ...we can analyze ...
in ...in the event ...depending on the political
situation in Argentina regarding the case. After
they grant you immunity from prison, we submit
one of those really grave medical reports saying
that you can't travel because of your
condition ...and see if we can gi ...give a
statement here at ...at the consulate. He tells me
it's not easy but not impossible for that to
happen. But the first thing you need is immunity
from prison. You understand?
I...I don't want to talk to you any longer so it
doesn't appear like, uh, I'm trying to convince
you, uh, that I'm here to convince you. Ask me
whatever you want. Uh? [UI]
No, no, no. What concerns me is the political
question. Because I.. .I.. .I...Okay, perfect.
What you are saying is ...is a very valid point.
Right? And ...and I believe what you are telling
me. But I sign now ...I...my only weapon is ...is
the.. .is the truth. That [the money] was never
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

e s t h diciendo. Pero yo firmo ya ... mine, right? You're predicting a disaster if I say
yo ...mi imica arma es...es la ...es la so because the world will fall apart. Right? And
verdad. Que eso nunca h e mio, nobody's given any signs of wanting to help me.
jverdad? Que tu dices que es un Simply..."No, sign [it], show up there
desastre si lo dig0 porque se cae el and...we'll settle with the ...with this judge ... one
mundo. jverdad? Y nadie ha dado who is political and the other, who's corrupt,
sefiales de que me quieren ayudar. who takes money." In other words ...y ou
Simplemente.. ."No, firma, understand? That terrifies me. You ...You've got
presintate alla y.. .ya cuadran'amos to understand that.
con el ...con el juez este ...uno que es
politico y otro que es corrupto, que
agarra plata." 0 sea.. .jme
entendiste? A mi me asusta de sobre
manera. Tu ... Tienes que
entenderme eso.
I

GL: Si, te entiendo, pero ...eh, pero ... Yes, I understand, but ...uh, but ...

[SCI

MM: Pero ... But.. .

GL: ...te ... ...I...

MM: ...te hago una pregunta. ...I ask you.

GL: ...pero, te compre.. .pero, para. Te ...but, I unders ...but, stop. I understand you
comprendo totalmente. perfectly.

MM: Te hago una pregunta. Let me ask you a question.

GL: Pero ...pero tu tambikn tienes [UI] But.. .but you also have to [UI] my. ..my...uhh, a
mi ...mi ...ehh, un arma... weapon.

MM: Alejandro ...nadie te dijo ... Alejandro.. .nobody told you.. .

GL: Tienes un arma importante...que es You've got an important weapon ...which is

tu lengua. your word.

MM: Exacto. Exactly.

File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
GL: ...que.. .que todos.. .que.. .Porque yo
creo que el esta aqui ...por tu lengua.
AA: Claro.
NlM: Ya, no. No por tu lengua. Por el
potencial de tu lengua. [RISA]
AA: Claro.
GL: [RISAl
FD: [UI] Pero, creeme, Alex. No te han
destruido. Por ...Creeme, no te han
destruido del lado venezolano, que
era lo mas facil. Lo mas facil era.
AA: Frank, me destruyeron. Escuchame.
Mis compaiiias en Venezuela.. .A mi
me ... [LTI] Venuz Supply, me
cancelaron ciento ochenta mil
dolares, ordenes de compra.. .todas
me las cancelaron. Y lo ...lo que me
deben, te lo van a pagar por
Estados Unidos. No ... no ...0 sea,
''no te queremos ver mas nunca,
pues."
FD: Alejandro, me cancelaron a mi
todas las cuentas donde te ...mande
plata a ti. Todas. Todas. Hoy.
AA: Ah, ah, jsi? iPor mi?
FD: Si. Por Venuz Supply. Venuz
Supply, Lita, Commerce Bank.
Todas. Donde aparece Alejandro
Antonini, y CommerceBank
cancelaron las cuentas. Eso no
es ...eso no es el ...Eso no se acabo
...that.. .that everybody.. .that.. .Because I think
he's here. ..because of what you say.
Sure.
Okay, no. Not because of what you say. But
because of what you might say. [CHUCKLE]
Sure.
[LAUGHTER]
[UI] But believe me, Alex. They haven't
destroyed you. For ...Believe me, they haven't
destroyed you from the Venezuelan side, which
would have been the easiest. It was the easiest.
Frank, they destroyed me. Listen to me. My
companies in Venezuela.. .I was.. . [UI] Venuz
Supply, they canceled a hundred and eighty
thousand dollars, purchase orders...they
canceled all of them. And what ...what they owe
me, they're going to pay through the United
States. No ...no ...In other words, "We don't
even want to see you again."
Alejandro, they closed all my accounts from
where I...sent you money. All of them. All of
them. Today.
Oh, oh, yes? Because of me?
Yes. Because of Venuz Supply. Venuz Supply,
Lita, Commerce Bank. All of them. Where
Alejandro Antonini appears and
CommerceBank closed the accounts. That's
not ...that's not the ...The world didn't come to
an end, brother. The world didn't come to an
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
el mundo, hermano. No se acabo el
mundo por eso. No, no se acabo el
mundo. Porque no puedes devolver
eso, porque eso no se puede
remediar. Hay que volver a hacer un
set-up y volver a arrancar. 0 sea,
ese pe'o ya lo hiciste. Ahorita lo que
me interesa ...es que no se te ponga
peor. Eso es todo. Tu la decision
que tu quieras hacer la ...la vas a
hacer a la final. Pero ten en
cuenta.. .que tu situacion puede ser
peor ...si no nombras un abogado,
bien sea el seiior o bien sea 10s que
te visitaron de parte ...
MM: Ya. Yo ...
FD: ...de tu hermana.
NIM: ...yo creo estar ...yo creo estar
entenhiendo un poquito a 61. Y...y
aqui vamos a aclarar. Si el te
nombra a ti abogado ...eso implica
que maiiana ...el ...y...y tu lo
defiendes...jeso imp1ica que tu
maiiana ...que el maiiana no pueda
decir la verdad?
GL: Tu puedes decir ...
AA: No puedo.
GL: ...eh, para. Para. Primero, es ... si
puede, eh ...por el peligro que
implica decir la verdad.
MM: No, no, no, no, no por el peligro.
GL: Pero [UI]
end because of that. No, the world didn't come
to an end. Because you can't turn that back,
because that can't be fixed. It's necessary to do
a set-up again and start over. In other words,
you're already past that mess. Now what
concerns me ...is that it doesn't get worse.
That's all. The decision that you want to make,
you're going to make it at the end. But keep in
mind.. .that your situation can get worse ...if you
don't appoint a lawyer, be it the gentleman or
be it the ones who visited you on behalf. ..
Okay. I...
...of your sister.
...I think that I'm ...I think that I'm understanding
him a little. And ...and let's clarify here. If he
appoints you as his attorney.. .that means that
tomorrow.. .he.. .and...and you defend him. ..
does that mean that tomorrow you ...that
tomorrow he can't tell the truth?
You can say ...
I can't.
...uh, stop. Stop. First, it's ...if he can, uh ...
because of the danger of telling the truth.
No, no, no, no, not because of the danger.
But [UI]
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

MM: Sinoque... Just that.. .

GL: Bueno.. .correcto. El. ..ahora va con Okay ...right. He goes now with immunity from
la eximicion de prisibn ... prison ...

MM: Aja.

GL: ...esta...eh, y con la espontanea que ...he is ...uh, and with the voluntary appearance
no im ...complica a nadie. which doesn't ...complicate anybody.

MM: Aja.

GL: Cuando ...se le de la gana, dice,
"Seiior, quiero ampliar esto.
Y...aquellas veces yo tenia miedo y
que s6 yo. Por eso no lo hice. La
verdad es esta."
When ...he feels like it and says, "Mister, I want
to expand this. And ...previously I was afraid,
whatever. That's why I didn't do it. This is the
truth."

FD: 0 sea, tie ...No ...no estas amarrado In other words ...You're not ...y ou aren't tied
a no decirla. down to not say it.

GL: Vos pod& cambiar la ...tu version You can change the ...y our version whenever
cuando quieras. you want.

MM: Son lo ...0 sea, 61...61 no. .. They're the ...In other words, he ...he won't ...

GL: Porque. .. Because.. .

MM: ...el hecho ... ...the fact ...

GL: Lull

FD : El hecho de que te defiendan no The fact of being defended doesn't mean that
dice que no lo puedas decir. you can't say it.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
GL: ...la diferencia de aqui...el.. .el ac. ..
imputado en la Argentina, no
declara bajo juramento.
MM: Aqui si.
GL: No ...Eh, por eso. No hay perjurio.
0 sea, que tu puedes dar una
version hoy ...
MM: Y ampliar maiiana.
GL: ...y. ..despuCs cambiarla maiiana.
Eh ...la version que des hoy va a ser
muy light y no creo que.. .
FD : Mas, no va a estar ...no va a estar
reflejada con el origen. Tu version
es ...va a estar mas reflejada con la
forma que con el origen. Tu lo que
tienes que decir es la verdad
verdadera. La verdad verdadera es
que nadie te dio una planilla pa' que
tu la declararas. Y la verdad
verdadera es que te dijeron que era
una infraccion. Hasta que 10s medios
te hicieron salir corriendo.
MM: Y la verdad verdadera es que tu lo
llevabas. Pero ...no tienes que decir
que ...era tuyo. Y maiiana ...te fa110 el
gobierno venezolano, te fa110 el ...
MM: ...g obierno argentino, jverdad?
Quiero ampliar.
FD: [UI] tu la llevabas porque el
argentino te dijo ...
...the difference with here ...the ...the acc...
accused in Argentina doesn't render a
statement under oath.
Here, yes.
No ...Uh, that's why. There's no perjury. In
other words, you can give one version today ...
And elaborate on it tomorrow.
...and.. .then change it tomorrow. Uh.. .the
version that you give today is going to be very
light and I don't think that ...
Moreover, it's not going to be ...it's not going to
be reflected in its origin. Your version is ...will
be better reflected with form than with origin.
What you have to say is the real truth. The real
truth is that nobody gave you a form to fill out.
And the real truth is that they told you it was an
infraction. Until the media made you take off
running.
And the real truth is that you were carrying it.
But ...you don't have to say that ...it was yours.
And tomorrow ...the Venezuelan government
fails you ...
...the Argentine government fails you, right? I
want to expand.
[UI] you were carrying it because the Argentine
told you ...
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape -Number / CD: R2a

MM: Es verdad. Yo fui el que la metio, It's true. I was the one who took it in, but that
per0 esa vaina era asi, asi, asi, thing was like that, like that, like that, plus ...
mas ...

FD: Te la dio fulano de tal. So and so gave it to you.

MM: ...asi, asi, asi. ...like that, like that, like that.

FD: Exacto. Exactly.

AA: Y.. .y, jquien paga todo eso? And ...and who pays for all that? Meanwhile,
Mientras, ~ C O le ~ pago
O al doctor? how do I pay the doctor [attorney]?

MM: jC6m0 es la cosa? What's the deal?

AA : jQuiCn le paga a1 doctor mientras? Who pays the doctor meanwhile?

MM: No, el doctor ... No, the doctor ...

FD: No. No.

MM: ...esta pago por.. .por... ...is paid by.. .by...

FD: Tu le puedes firmar ahorita. You can sign now.

MM: ...por...

FD: El doctor te hace una exoneracibn The doctor will give you a release saying that
de que tu no le debes nada. you owe him nothing.

MM: Mira. El doctor te puede decir.
Pasaron presupuesto honorarios.
"Doctor. jcierto?" "Fueron
aprobados, jcierto?" Hasta
adelantados, asi que ...
Look. The doctor can tell you. They submitted
an estimate. "Doctor. Right?" "They were
approved, right?" Even paid in advance, so
that ...

FD: Cierto. Right.

 File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
--
GL: Eh, n...no se si fueron aprobados Uh, I don't know if they were approved
porque eso lo habla [UI] per0 ... because that's up to [UI:] but ...

MM: Si. Si, si, si, si, si... Yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes ...

GL: [UI] [UII

[SCI

MM: Yo hable con [UI:] I spoke with [UI]

FD : ~Viste,Alex? Tu tienes que... You see, Alex? You have to.. .

MM: 0 sea, el esta aqui. In other words, he's here.

FD : ...cobrar ahi la vain ...tu no pagas ...get the money for that thi ...you don't pay
nada. anything.

GL: Esta ...esta... This...this ...

FD: Claro. Sure.

GL: ...es la primera garantia. Que...que ...is the first guarantee. That.. .that they're
estan interesados por vos. interested in you.

MM: Y yo no soy funcionario, yo soy And I'm not an official, I'm another Venezuelan
otro abogado venezolano. attorney.

AA: Yo lo sC. I know.

MM: Me ...te ...ientiendes? Entonces ... I...do you understand? Then ...uh ...When they
este ...Cuando a mi me Ilamaron ... called me ...

AA: Okey. Yo firmo...Y, iquien le Okay. I sign...And who guarantees my wi ...?

garantiza a mi es ...? Y voy y de And suddenly I'm jailed.
repente caigo preso.

MM: Aja.

AA: Yo necesito g...garantias pa' mi I need a g...guarantee for my family here. I

File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
familia aqui, vale. Yo necesito que
el ...el gobierno me de algo pa' mi
familia aqui.
MM: Ya. Yo ...yo le decia a el. Esto ...esto
que yo te estoy diciendo a ti, no se
lo estoy diciendo a nadie. Pero si el
hace su trabajo como lo tiene que
hacer, que estoy seguro que lo va a
hacer mejor ...y si nosotros tenemos
el apoyo politico que lo tengamos ...
que tenemos que tener, y Argentina
dice que eso es una infraccion ...la
pena por la infraccion es la mitad
del dinero y tu te vienes con 10s
cuatrocientos mil dolares. Es ...es
una ...es una ...
FD: L Q U garantia
~ quieres, Alejandro?
MM: ...es una tonteria. Pero ...
FD: ~Monetaria?
AA: Si, claro.
FD: ~Cuatrocientosmil dolares?
AA: No, no quiero cuatrocientos mil. Yo
quiero mas. Quiero mil quinientos.
Quiero un millon. No si. Quiero ...Y
si me llevan preso pa' ...pa'
Argentina.
FD: ~ C u a n t oproduces tu a1 aiio?
AA: Bueno...
MM: iUn millon de dolares a1 aiio?
need the government to give me something for
my family here.
Okay. I...I was telling him. What ...what I'm
telling you, I'm not telling anybody. But if he
does his work like he must, and I'm sure he's
going to do it better ...and if we have the
political support that we would have ...that we
have to have, and Argentina says that it's an
infraction... the punishment for the infraction is
half of the money and you come back with the
four hundred thousand dollars. It's...it's a...itls
a...
What guarantee do you want, Alejandro?
...it's silliness. But ...
Monetary?
Yes, sure.
Four hundred thousand dollars?
No, I don't want four hundred thousand. I want
more. I want five hundred thousand. I want a
million. I don't know. I want ...And if they take
me arrested to ...to Argentina.
How much do you produce in a year?
Well ...
A million dollars yearly?
 File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
--

AA: En ...entonces... Th ...then ...

FD: Bueno. Se...eso es paso dos. Okay. That's step two. You understand?
~Entiendes?

AA: Paso dos, iquien me lo va a dar? Step two, who's going to give it to me?

FD: No, paso dos quiere decir ...No te lo No, step two means ...I can't tell you today.
puedo decir hoy.

MM: Okey, no importa. Okay, it doesn't matter.

FD: Seria irresponsable. It would be irresponsible.

MM: Pero no importa. Pero, yo si ...yo si But it doesn't matter. But, I can ...I can transmit
puedo transmitirlo. Entonces ... it. So...

FD: Solo, si ...solo, si vas preso. Only if. ..only if you go to jail.

MM: Entonces, oyeme. Then, listen to me.

AA: No, solo si ...solo si vas preso, no.
Frank. Es muy facil. Yo firmo y lo
depositan, Frank. Solo si ...no solo
si ... Despuks yo firmo una carta y
quieres que lo devuelva. Pero
si ...pero ...lo mas segu ...iQ ue? iQuk
va a pasar, Frank?
No, only if. ..only if you land in jail, no. Frank.
It's very easy. I sign and they deposit it, Frank.
Only if. ..not only if. .. Then I sign a letter and
you want me to return it. But if. ..but ...the most
cert... What? What's going to happen, Frank?

FD: Yo te lo garantizo. 1'11 guarantee it.

PC1

AA: No, Frank. No, que ...que lo dig.. . No, Frank. No, that ...that ...

PC1

AA: ...que lo diga alguien. ...somebody says it.

FD: Yo te lo garantizo. 1'11 guarantee it.

File Number: MM-109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

AA: Bueno, dame la transferencia, pues. Well, give me the wire transfer, then.

FD: ~CuBntonecesitas que te transfiera? How much do you need to have wire
Dime. transferred? Tell me.

[SCI

AA: Yo ...pero, iquien te lo va a dar a ti? I...but who's going to give it to you?

MM: Tii quieres ...tu quieres ... You want to ...you want to ...

FD : No me interesa quien me lo d6. I don't care who gives it to me. Tell me the
Dime el monto. amount.

MM: ...nos tomamos un cafe ...tu y yo en ...we'll have a coffee...y ou and I at the counter
la barra.

GL: &hrn? Uhm?

MM: Vamos a la barra alla. Let's go to the counter over there.

FD: Dime el monto, Alejandro. Yo te lo Tell me the amount, Alejandro. I'll wire transfer
transfiero mafiana. Dime la cuenta it tomorrow. Tell me Jackie's account that I'll
de Jackie que te lo transfiero. Dime wire transfer it. Tell me the amount that you ...
el monto que tu me ...

AA: ~ T estas
u seguro que no voy a ir Are you sure that I'm not going to prison,
preso, Frank? Frank?

FD: No estoy seguro que... I'm not sure that. ..

AA: Sabes... You know ...

FD : ...no vayas a ir preso. No te voy a ...you're not going to prison. I won't lie to you.
mentir. No te he mentido ni una vez. I've never lied to you. I've never lied to you.
Ni una vez te he mentido.

AA: Bueno, entonces, transfikeme un Okay, then, wire me a million dollars. To leave
millon de dolares. Pa' dejar a mi my family in peace.
familia tranquila.
 File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
--
FD: Okey .
AA: Y yo me calo todo.
FD: Okey .
AA: Yo te doy la cuenta.
FD: Dame la cuenta. D h e l a hoy, me la
mandas en mensaje de texto.
AA: Okey.
FD: ~Oiste?
AA: Y ...y...y no voy a ir preso.
FD : No te lo estoy garantizando, cofio.
Lo unico que te estoy garantizando
es que tu te me defiendas. ~ S a b e s
que no quiero? Que vayas preso.
Que vayas sin defensa y que seas
desechable. Eso es lo que no
quiero. Eso es todo, gordito. i M e
entiendes? Yo no quiero que...0
sea...despues lo realizaras tu con tu
historia y v e r h tu ...c6mo se hizo
todo aqui. Pero t 5no te has
muerto ...tu no te has muerto, porque
logramos pegar a Rafael en este
pe'o. Porque si no estuvierarnos
muertos, tu y nosotros.
AA: LA Rafael Ramirez? Y iporquk el
ahora se lava las manos?
FD: Rafael Ramirez no se esta lavando
las manos. Ya no puede lavarse las
manos. Porque siente...que su
asistente fue el que llevo las maletas.
Okay.
And I'll swallow the whole thing.
Okay.
1'11 give you the account.
Give me the account. Give it to me today, send
me a text message.
Okay.
You heard me?
And. ..and ...and I'm not going to jail.
I'm not giving you any guarantee, damn it. The
only thing I can guarantee is for you to defend
yourself. Do you know what I don't want? For
you to go to jail. That you go without a defense
lawyer and that you become disposable. That's
what 1 don't want. That's all, pal. You
understand? I don't want ...In other words ...
later on you'll realize it with your history and
you'll see... how everything was done here. But
you haven't died ...you haven't died, because
we managed to rope Rafael into this mess.
Otherwise, we'd be dead, you and us.
Rafael Ramirez? And why's he washing his
hands now?
Rafael Ramirez isn't washing his hands. He can
no longer wash his hands. Because he feels...
that his assistant was the one who carried the
suitcases. He can't wash his hands because the
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a --

El no puede lavarse las manos
porque el Presidente ya sup0 que
h e el asistente de Rafael el que
llevo las maletas en ese avion. Ya
Rafael si estaba enterado. Pero
antes 61 no lo sabia. jTe acuerdas
que 61 no lo sabia? Yo te pedi que
me dieras ... [UI]
President already found out that Rafael's
assistant was the one who carried the suitcase
on that plane. Rafael already knew. But he
didn't know that before. Remember that he
didn't know? I asked you to give me ... [UI]

[SCI

AA: Y Tarek ...y Tarek, este s...jlo sabe And Tarek ...and Tarek, this one ...does he
tambien? know, too?

FD: Claro. Sure.

AA: se llama el? jTarek qui? What's his name? Tarek what?

FD: Tarek A1 Aissami. Tarek A1 Aissami.

AA: Y jque es lo que es? Que tu me And what is he? You told me.
dijiste.

FD: Vice Ministro de Seguridad Deputy Minister for Citizen Security.

Ciudadana.

AA: Eso ...eso es como... That ...that is like ...

FD: Tu me estas grabando, jno? Bueno, You're recording me, right? Well, pal, I can
marico, yo puedo preguntar. Igualito ask. Just like you. But ...Can't I ask you?
que tu. Pero ...jQue no te lo puedo
preguntar?

AA: Esta bien, per0 ...pero jeso es como That's fine, but. ..but that's like what.. .? That's
O como que...?
que ...? ~ E S es like what.. .?

FD: Eso es, charno. Te lo voy a dejar That's the way it is, pal. 1'11 leave it at that. He's
asi. Es un carajo sano. an okay guy.

AA: No, vale. No, man.

File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number 1 CD: R2a
FD: Treinta y tres afios. Ya va. Que el
Presidente le tiene carifio. Y el
Presidente lo atiende en persona.
Eso es todo el poder de este
chamo. Y que el Presidente le dijo,
" ~ S a b equk?
s Enciirgate de la
justicia en Venezuela. Enciirgate de
las carceles, enciirgate de la PTJ,
encargate de la Disip. Tu eres el jefe
miximo de toda esa mierda."
AA: Ah, per0 no es el Fiscal General.
FD: No, Alejandro. Es peor que el
Fiscal General porque el General es
un huevon en Venezuela.
AA: Ah, jsi?
FD: Este chamo es el Vice Ministro de
Seguridad Ciudadana. 0 sea, 61 es
el que ...manda sobre las policias.
AA: Uh-huh. 0 sea, en la Disip ...todas
reportan a 61.
FD: A 61.
AA: 0 sea, que en Venezuela no tendria
yo rollo.
FD: No, Alejandro. Te estoy diciendo.
En dado caso que vayas a tener un
rollo en Venezuela, el origen no voy
a ser yo.
AA: iQu6 hago, entonces?
FD: Lo que te diga tu conciencia,
chamo. Estarnos en ese punto,
Thirty-three years. Wait a minute. The
President likes him. And receives him in
person. That's the whole power of this kid. And
the President told him, "You know what? Take
charge of justice in Venezuela. Take charge of
the jails, take charge of the PTJ, take charge of
Disip.Youlre the top boss of all that shit."
Oh, but he's not the Attorney General.
No, Alejandro. He's worse than the Attorney
General because the General is an asshole in
Venezuela.
Oh, yes?
This kid is the Deputy Minister for Citizen
Security. In other words, he's the one who ...
commands the police forces.
Uh-huh. In other words, in Disip ...they all
report to him.
To him.
In other words, I wouldn't have a problem in
Venezuela.
No, Alejandro. I've been telling you. In the
event that you were to have a problem in
Venezuela, I wouldn't be the cause of it.
What do I do, then?
Whatever your conscience dictates, pal. We're
at that point, Alejandro.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
Alejandro.
AA: Bueno, dile que venga el abogado.
Llamalo a...llSunalo ahi que venga.
FD: MoisCs. Dame ...mindame la cuenta.
~Oiste?
AA: Te la ...te mando la cuenta. A,..
Bueno, esta bien. Y ...y...y para
legalizar ese poder, jno tengo que ir
a la embajada amer ...argentina ...?
FD: jC6m0?
AA: NO hay que ir a...a un escribano,
embajada arn...argentina y eso?
MM: No, eso ...eso deberia ser lo
correcto. Pero eso va a despertar...
ya maiiana el d...el escribano de la
embajada, va a llamar a Argentina y
se va a parar el pe'o y le voy a decir
que firmaste, tal. Entonces, va a
venir la prensa argentina. Eso lo
hacemos con un notario normal.
GL: Si.
MM: Lo llevamos a1 Coung Clerk aqui...
GL: Claro.
NIM: ...y ahi lo legalizan. De ahi lo
llevamos ...a la embajada ...deja que
legalicen.. .este.. .el.. .el...el
documento y despuCs lo mandamos.
No te vayas a apersonar tu en la ...
AA: No. Yo no puedo ir a Miami.
Okay, tell the lawyer to come. Call him ...call
him over here.
Moises. Give me ...send me the bill. You hear?
I'll...I'll send you the bill. To...Okay, that's fine.
And ...and ...and to legalize that power of
attorney, don't I have to go to the Amer ...
Argentine Embassy?
What?
Isn't it necessary to go to ...to a special notary,
Am.. .Argentine Embassy and that?
No, that ...that should be the right thing. But
that's going to trigger ...tomorrow the embassy's
special notary is going to call Argentina and the
mess is going to be stopped and I'm going to
say that you signed such and such. Then, the
Argentine press will show up. We'll do that
with a regular notary.
Yes.
We take it to the County Clerk here ...
Right.
...and they legalize it. From there we take it ...to
the embassy...let them legalize...uh ...the ...the ...
the document and then we send it. Don't you
show up at the ...
No. I can't go to Miami.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
MM: Por eso.
AA : Yo no puedo ir a...Yo no puedo
estar aqui. ~ S a b e s ?El me dice Lpor
que escogi este sitio? Porque este
ha sido el unico sitio ...d6nde yo he
tenido reuniones que no me han
reconocido. Yo estuve el fin de
semana con mi familia en un sitio en
la ...en Sunrise, y un venezolano me
dijo, aquel que estin buscando.
Entonces, me preguntan porque no
estoy en Mi ...en Key Biscayne.
LPor que estoy en West Palm
Beach? LPor que estoy mas arriba?
Porque no me conoce nadie.
GL : No. Si, te tienes que cuidar como ...
MM: Mira. Independientemente de todo
esto ...creeme y nosotros ...eh, lo
entendemos...que es 16gico que tu
no confies en nadie.
AA : Claro, porque la traicion que yo
[UII
MM: Eso ...eso es. ..
AA: La traicion que yo recibi ...
MM: ...eso es...
AA: ...h e la mas ...grande del mundo.
MM: Eso es absolutamente [UI]
AA: Porque yo no hice un coiio malo.
That's why.
I can't go to ...I can't be here. You know? He's
asking me why I chose this place. Because this
has been the only place ...where I have had
meetings and I haven't been recognized. I spent
the week-end with my family at a place on
the ...in Sunrise, and a Venezuelan told me,
that's the one they're looking for. Then, they
ask me why I'm not in Mi ...in Key Biscayne.
Why am I in West Palm Beach? Why am I
further up there? Because nobody knows me.
No. Yes, you have to look after yourself like ...
Listen. Aside from all this ...believe me, and
we ...uh, we understand ...it's reasonable that
you don't trust anybody.
Sure, because the betrayal that I [Ul']
That ...that is ...
The betrayal that I endured ...
...that is ...
...was the most ...biggest in the world.
That is absolutely [UI]
PC1
Because I didn't do a damn thing bad.
 File Number: MM-109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
-T Number / CD: R2a
Yo lo que hice fue...al de marico ...
de educado, agarrk una mierda ...me
dijeron, " ~ E s oes tuyo?" No. No,
no. Hago asi ...no habia nadie.
"P6ngala ahi. Abra ahi." Y...y
despuks esta Claudio atras y hago
asi y 61 hace asi. No. Te lo juro ...
MM: Este ...eso lo entendemos. Ahora. Si
esto no es lo mas cercano a una
persecucibn, que tu has tenido.. .o
sea, tanto ...estan conscientes de que
te abandonaron y te dejaron...q ue
ahorita ...me han utilizado a mi para
perseguirte ...y yo he utilizado a
Franklin y a Carlos pa' perseguirte.
Para poder ...salir adelante con este
asunto. Eso pa' ti tiene que ser un
[UI] Yo estoy aqui contratado ...
por.. .
AA: No, yo me siento bien por ti. De
verdad.
MM: Yo ...yo estoy contratado aqui por
PDVSA. Hice un link con ...Yo
te ...te reto a que tu verifiques ...las
credenciales de este seiior. 0 sea,
no hay un profesional, por su
credibilidad, eso pensando en 10s
medios en Argentina. No hay un
personaje con su solvencia moral
pensando en la ...tambikn en la
prensa y en la ...y en la propia
justicia. 0 sea, te buscamos a1...a1
Maradona del ...del derecho penal
argentino para que estuviera a tu
lado. CoAo, jno te estoy [UI.]
What I did was ...like a fag...being educated, I
grabbed a piece of shit ...they told me, "Is that
yours?" No. IVo, no. I do that ...there was
nobody. "Put it there. Open up." And ...and then
there's Claudio behind and I do that and he
does like that. No. I swear ...
Uh ...we understand that. Now. If this isn't the
closest thing to persecution, that you have
had. ..in other words, so much ...they're aware
that they abandoned you and let you ...so that
now ...they've used me to chase you ...and I
have used Franklin and Carlos to chase you.
To be able ...to make progress with this matter.
For you that has to be a [UI] I'm here,
retained ...by ...
No, I feel good because of you. Truly.
I...I1mhere retained by PDVSA. I made a link
with ...I...I challenge you to veri fy...this man's
credentials. In other words, there isn't a
professional, because of his credibility, with the
media in Argentina. There isn't an individual
with his moral standing, as regards the ...also
with the press and in the ...in judicial circles
themselves. In other words, we found you
the ...the Maradona of the ...of Argentina's
criminal law to be on your side. Damn, aren't I
[UII
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
9 Number / CD: R2a
AA: Y, jquk va a pasar con la prensa ...
ahora...?
GL: Eh.. .cuando haga esa presentacion.. .
me van a busc ar...un par de veces,
yo voy a contestar, usted quiere...
eh, dos representantes y...y
despuCs...
UF: Another one?
GL: ...le voy a cortar 10s...
MM: Yes, please.
GL : ...10s viveres, jno? Porque
mantenerlo. ..
MM: j Agua?
GL: ...mantenerlo en la...
UF: NO?
GL: ...permanentemente alto, no se
puede. Pero una vez si decir que
vos te querks presentar y...y...y...y
que por eso tu ...me has nombrado a
mi y, pero, querCs presentarte con la
eximicion de prision y no ...con una
captura nada mas que por una
infraccion. Es decir, salgo a hacer
una defensa mediatica.. .la primera
vez y despuCs, chao. Porque si no
seguimos en 10s diarios todos 10s
dias. Y...y a vos te ...te estas
demoliendo todos 10s dias. No te
conviene. Pero que se sepa que te
querCs presentar es importante.
And what's going to happen with the press ...
now ...?
Uh.. .when I make that appearance.. .they're
going to fetch me...a couple of times, I'm going
to answer, you want ...uh, two representatives
and ...and then ...
Another one?
...I'm going to cut off the ...
Yes, please.
...the supplies, right? Because to maintain you.. .
Water?
...to maintain you in the ...
No?
...permanently elevated, is not possible. But to
finally say yes, that you want to appear and...
and.. .and...and that's why you have appointed
me and, but, you want to appear with immunity
from prison and not ...with an arrest merely for
an infraction. That is, I come out for a media
defense ...the first time and then, good-bye.
Because if not we're in the papers every day.
And ...and you ...you're being demolished every
day. It's not good for you. But it's important to
make it known that you want to present
yourself.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number I CD:
-- R2a

MM: Ahora, el poder ... Now, the power of attorney ...

GL: Alla sali6... It came out over there ...

MM: ...que tu le vas a dar a 61 es ...that you're giving him is revocable. So, let's
revocable. Entonces, vamos a suppose...tomorrow he grants ...the ...not even...
suponer ...maiiana le concede ...el ...
ni siquiera.. .

AA: [UI]

MM: ...es el poder. La designacion. ...the power of attorney. The appointment.

Mafiana te da la designacion. Ehh... Tomorrow he gives you the appointment.
Uhh.. .

AA: Y lo podemos hacer aqui en Fort And we can do it here in Fort Lauderdale.
Lauderdale.

MM: Lo podemos hacer aqui en Fort
Lauderdale. Pasan y no ...y no tiene
que estar 61, no tengo que estar yo.
Tiene que estar ...el modelo que yo
te voy a pasar. Y hi lo haces en tu
casa si quieres.
We can do it here in Fort Lauderdale. They
pass it and ...and he needn't be there, I don't
have to be there. What is necessary is ...the
draft that I'll send you. And you can do it at
home if you want.

AA: ~ T quieres
u mi ...mi e-mail? You want my ...my e-mail?

MM: No, ahorita me lo das. Este ...y... No, give it me shortly. Uh ...and...

FD:

GL: Te aclaro otra cosa. A...al
abogado...a1 abogado vos lo echas
por soplido. Es decir ...presentas
este escrito y a1...a1 dia siguiente ya
no es mas tu abogado.
Let me clarify something else. The...the
lawyer ...you fire the lawyer in a jiffy. That is...
you submit this writ and the ...the following day
he's no longer your lawyer.

MM: Si. Primero ... Yes. First ...

GL: No es un poder de esos ...un poder. It's not one of those powers of attorney ...a
 File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
-
Es ...designo abogado, nada mas.
MM: [UI]
GL: 0 sea, que a1 dia siguiente, eh ...
quiero otro abogado.
MM: Entonces, si dentro del plazo
prudencial, tu ves que no funciono
la ...la vaina, que no ha salido la..:lo
que es, lo mandas pa' el carajo y ya.
Pero no ...no vas a perder nada.
Peor que ahorita...q ue apareces
como profugo, no vas a estar. iQu6
vamos a hacer? Vamos a pedir la
eximicion de. ..de prision.. .em...
analiza lo que 61 te dice de ...de
presentar un escrito ...iComo se
llama el escrito?
GL: Presentacion Esponthnea.
MM: Una Presentacion Espontanea.
GL: Pero para eso tenemos que,
primero, tener el expediente y
despu6s a un ...
MM: Ahh, okey.
AA : Okey.
GL : ...para ver ...qu6 version damos.
MM: Okey
power of attorney. It's ...I appoint an attorney,
nothing else.
In other words, the next day, uh ...I want
another lawyer.
So, if within a reasonable period, you see that
the ...the crap didn't work, that it hasn't come
out...what's supposed to be, you send him to
hell and that's that. But you ...you won't lose
anything. Worse off than now ...appearing to be
a fugitive, you won't be. What shall we do?
We're going to ask for immunity from prison ...
uhh...so, analyze what he's telling you about ...
about ...presenting a writ ...What's the name of
the writ?
Voluntary Appearance.
A Voluntary Appearance.
But for that we need, first, to have the file and
then a...
[SCI
Ohh, okay.
[UII
Okay.
...to see...what version we provide.
Okay.
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
GL: Eh, que ...q ue inventamos.
AA : Okey
GL: Pero sin el expediente no ...no
podemos ...tiramos a la pileta. Pero,
ademas, la Presentacion
Espontinea, a diferencia de la
Eximicion de Prision, que la puedo
pedir yo ...la Presentacion
Espontanea solo la podis firmar
VOS.
AA: Okey .
GL : 0 sea, que ...yo no puedo ir con la
Presentacion Espontanea por vos.
MM: Pero, tu la puedes llevar per0 no la
puedes suscribir.
GL: Claro. Exacto. 0 sea, que ...no es
Presentacion Espontinea, es
defensa si digo yo ...algo yo.
AA: De que si ...por si o por si tengo que
estar en Argentina.
GL: Claro. Pero ...por si o por si ...
MM: NO, no, no, no. no.
GL: Perd6n. No, perd6n. Por si o por
S1...
AA: Debo ir a Argentina.
GL: Para. Para la Presentacion
Espontanea, no. Para la Eximicion
de Prision, no. Teniendo la
Uh, what ...what we can make up.
Okay.
But without the file ...we can't ...jump into the
pool. Moreover, the Voluntary Appearance,
unlike immunity from prison, which I can
request ...only you can sign the Voluntary
Appearance.
Okay.
In other words ...I cannot go with the Voluntary
Appearance on your behalf.
But you can take it but you can't sign it.
Right. Exactly. In other words, it's not
Voluntary Appearance, it's a defense if I
say ...something.
That if. ..no matter what, I have to be in
Argentina.
Sure. But ...no matter what ...
No, no, no, no, no.
1 Sorry. No, sorry. No matter what ...
I must go to Argentina.
Stop. Not for the Voluntary Appearance. Not
for immunity from prison. Having immunity from
prison ...we can try what he said ...but I think
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

Eximicion de Prision.. .podemos that before October 2gth,if it were forthcoming,

hacer el intento que dijo el ...pero they won't give it to you. If it's after October
creo que antes del veintiocho de 2tTh,perhaps they'll give you that possibility of
octubre, si saliera, no te lo van a declaring here. But if not, you're going to have
dar. Si es despues del veintiocho de to go to Argentina. But I suppose that by then
octubre, quizas te den la posibilidad we'll have ...
esa de declarar aqui. Pero si no, vas
a tener que ir a la Argentina. Pero
supongo que en ese momento
tendremos.. .

MM: Pero en libertad. 1 But a free man.

GL : ...tendremos garantias. ...we'll have guarantees.

MM: En libertad. Aja. Ahorita, otra cosa A free man. Uh-huh. Now, another thing that ...I
que...yo no entendi. Hoy nos dm... didn't understand. Today they grant us. ..
la Eximicion de Prision. immunity from prison.

GL: Si. Yes.

MM: iEn quC momento puede ser At what point can it be revoked, by the
revocable, por parte del fiscal o del prosecutor or by the court itself. ..?
propio tribunal...?

GL: Eh ...La Eximicion de Prisi6n es Uh ...Immunity from prison can be revoked

revocable suponte que ...comprueba supposing that ...it can be proven that five
que intervinieron cinco personas. people were involved.

MM: Aja.

GL: Entonces, lo hacen.. .a...eh, So, they make it.. .uh, aggravated contraband. ..
contrabando agravado.. .

MM: Yahise[UI] And there [UI]

GL: [UI] 0 comprueban que era para [UI] Or if they prove that it was for
construir un edificio por lavado de construction of a building to launder money. It
 File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
-
dinero. Ahi tambien podria ser could also be revoked in that case. If it remains
revocable. Si se mantiene en e... as.. .as...attempted...contraband...uh, as they
en ...en el ...la tentativa con ...de contend ...it can't ever be revoked.
contrabando que.. .eh, que
pretenden ...no puede ser revocable
nunca.

MM: En la declaracion, i t 6 pusiste ...que In the declaration, did you write ...that it was for
eso era para comprar un inmueble? purchase of a property? Oh, well, that's why
Ah, por eso fue otra version there was another media version that appeared
periodistica que salio por ahi. out there.

AA: La declaracion dice ... The declaration says...

AA: ...exactamente... ...exactly ...

FD: Trajiste la declaracion. You brought the declaration.

--
AA: Yo la tengo. Te la doy maiiana. No I have it. I'll give it to you tomorrow. It says
dice nada de eso. nothing about that.

GL: iC6m0 es la [UI] How is the [UI]

AA: Dice ...eh, u. .. It says...uh ...

MM: No tiene la declaracion. You don't have the declaration.

GL: La declaracion [UI] con la de [UI] The declaration [UI] with the [UI]

MM: El tiene una copia de la declaracion He's got a copy of the declaration that he
que el firmo alla. signed over there.

GL: Ah, la que firm6 alla. Oh, the one he signed over there.
 File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
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MM: Si. I Yes.

FD: LTUla tienes? Do you have it?

GL: Pero, la dec ... But, the dec ...

GL: ...la dec ...la declaracidn que f.. . que ...the declaration that.. .that you signed over
firmaste alla.. . there ...

MM: ~Quieresalgo mas [UI] Do you want something else [UI]

AA: Uh, I'll take another sparkling Uh, I'll take another sparkling water
water.

UF : Okay. Sure. Sir? Okay. Sure. Sir?

MM: ~Quieresotro Diet Coke, tu? Do you want another Diet Coke?
-
GL: Ehh...Estarnos hablando en serio. Uhh...Welre speaking seriously. I still don't
Todavia no quiero.. . want ...

MM: Okey. Okay.

AA: [RISAl [CHUCKLE]

MM: One more Diet Coke. One more Diet Coke.

UF: One more Diet Coke? One more Diet Coke?

MM: Yes. Please. Yes. Please.

UF: Would you like more cashews or Wouldyou like more cashews or no?
no?

FD: Water. Water.

UF: Just the water? Ice water? Just the water? Iced water?
 File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
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-.

MM: Sparkling water. Sparkling water.

UF : Sparkling water. [UI] Sparkling water. [UI]

GL: For me, too. For me, too.

[SCI [SCI

UF: [UI:] a Diet Coke? [Ul] a Diet Coke?

FD: Lady. Lady.

[SCI [SCI

MM: No te pedi Coca Cola. iNo quieres I didn't order Coca Cola for you. Don't you
Coca Cola? want Coca Cola?

[SCI [SCI

GL: Bueno. Da ...da ...eh ...eh ...Diet ... Okay. Da ...da...uh ...uh. ..Diet.. .

UF : With the lemon in it? With lemon in it?

FD: No, no, no. Uh... No, no, no. Uh...

GL: Diet Coca Cola. Diet Coca Cola.

AA: On...on the side. On.,..on the side.

FD: [UI] the side. [UI] the side.

AA: On the side. On the side.

UF : Oh, with lemon juice on the side? Oh, with lemonjuice on the side?

AA: Yes. Yes.

UF : Okay. And you want just the San Okay. And you want just the San
Pellegrino without, yeah? Pellegrino without, yeah?
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
AA: Yes. Yeah.
UF: You want the Diet and the Sun
Pellegrino?
MM: Okay.
GL: Ehhh...jquC deciamos?
AA: Moises, y la ...y la parte en
Venezuela de...del dinero ...para que
el juez ...porque si t...si...si las
elecciones se hacen ...p ara decir que
el dinero es legal.. .jno ...no tendria
riesgo ahi?
MM: No, en Venezuela podemos ...o
hacer una declaracibn ...o asumir las
consecuencias de la falta de...de
declaracibn y...pagar una multa.
Pero, te.. .eh, ahorita.. .a mi me han
ofrecido veinte veces ...lo que pasa
que no quiero hacer nada ...eh, que
no este bien pensado ...darnos con
fecha anterior la vaina y poner un
fecha...eh, la fecha de la salida tuya
como que tu declaraste tu ...
FD: Que lo declaraste...
MM: ...que sacaste la plata.
AA: A la ...a la planilla. Eso me lo dijo
Frank.
MM: jSi? Pero.. .como ese poder todavia
lo mantenemos, entonces vamos a
ver ...a pensar bien todos 10s...10s
Yes. Yeah.
You want the Diet and the Sun Pellegrino?
okay.
Ehhh...what were we saying?
Moises, and the ...and the part in Venezuela
about. ..about the money.. .so that the judge.. .
because if. ..if. ..if the elections take place ...to
say that the money is legal ...wouldn't.. .there be
a risk there?
No, in Venezuela we can...either make a
declaration ...or assume the consequences for
failure to declare and...pay a fine. But ... uh,
now ...I've been offered twenty times ...it's just
that I don't want to do anything ...uh, that isn't
well thought out...give us the thing predated and
give a date ...uh, the date when you left as if you
declared your.. .
That you declared it.. .
...that you took the money out.
[SCI
The ...the form. Frank told me that.
Yes? But ...since we still have that power of
attorney, then we're going to see...to consider
all of the ...the drawbacks and then see how to
 File Number: MM-109803
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--
bemoles de la vaina y despues
vemos como lo hacemos. Porque
ahi si ...y eso es paso dos, tenemos
que ver las consecuencias tributarias
que eso pudiera tener aqui.
Entonces, tambien, yo ...nos
sentarnos con tus abogados aqui y
vemos la vaina. Mira, si hacemos
esto, iquC pasa del punto de vista
tributario, cuinto es, como...? No
hacer nada que mafiana no.. .no se
pueda. ..echar pa' atras.
FD: Pero eso es paso dos.
MM: Pero eso es paso dos. Ahorita, hay
una privativa de libertad en tu
contra, coiio. Eso es lo que th tienes
que. ..
FD: Que lo que yo quiero es que puedas
ir a Key Biscayne ...y caminar en la
calle, que te digan de todo ...pero no
puede llegar un policia y decirte ...
"VCngase pa' aca."
MM: iMe entiendes?
AA: Si.
FD: Es todo.
MM: Eso.
FD: Que nos digan de todo, no lo vas a
evitar.
do it. Because then ...and that's step two, we
have to weigh its possible tax implications here.
So, I also ...we sit down with your lawyers here
and take a look at the thing. Look, if we do
this, what happens from a tax point of view,
how much is it, how ...? We do nothing that
tomorrow...we couldn't ...roll back.
But that's step two.
But that's step two. Right now, there's a
detention order out for you. That's what you
need to ...
What I want is for you to be able to go to Key
Biscayne...and to walk the streets, as they tell
you all kinds of things ...but no policeman can
come and tell you ..."Come here."
You understand me?
Yes.
That's all.
That's it.
You won't avoid them telling us all kinds of
things.
 File Number: MM-109803
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-

MM: Porque ... Because ...

GL: [UI] [UII

MM: ...ese el, eh, riesgo ... ...that's the, uh, risk ...

GL: [UI] la cosa mediatica ... [UI:] the media thing ...

MM: Ese es un riesgo que comes tu ... That's a risk that you run.. .

GL: ...que es.. .en.. .en seis meses ...that is...will disappear in ...in six months.
desaparece.

MM: ...eso es un riesgo que come el ...that's a risk that the Venezuelan government
gobierno venezolano [UI:] runs [Ul]

GL: Porque todo el mundo se [UI] Because everybody [UI]

MM: Porque si a ti te agarran ahorita, Because if they grab you now, what would
ique pasa? happen?

AA: Preso.. .si, ahi si puedo.. .ahi me Go to jail ...y es, then I'd ...I'll go crazy, for sure.
vuelvo loco, seguramente.

MM: ~Entiendes?Y nadie quiere que eso You understand? And nobody wants that to
pase. iUhm? happen. Uhm?

GL: La ...la declaracion, ehh...que f... el The ...the declaration, uhh ...that ...the statement
acta que firmaste, ique...q ue dice? that you signed, what ...what does it say?

AA: Dice...Bueno, en la fecha de hoy ... It says ...Well, on today's date ...at the airport ...
en el aeropuerto n...ehh... uhh...

MM: Aeroparque. Aeroparque.

GL : Aeroparque. Aeroparque.

AA: ...Aeroparque.. .eh, fueron, eh.. . ...Aeroparque.. .uh, seven hundred and ninety
 File Number: MM- 109803
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-

decomisados setecientos noventa thousand dollars were seized. ..uhhh...

mil d6lares ...ehhh...

FD: ~Setecientossesenta mil [UI] Seven hundred and sixty thousand [UI]

[SCl

AA: ...ciento noventa mil ... ...a hundred and ninety thousand ...

GL: Bueno, no impo ...no impo ...no Alright, it doesn't matt... it doesn't matt ...it
importa. No importa. doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

MM: [UI]

AA: Okey. Y ...no se que, y dice...Esto Okay. And ...I don't know what, and it says...
se considera una infraccion ...y...y This is considered an infraction ...and ...and it
dice ...no estuvo oculto ni ...ni oculto says. ..it wasn't concealed nor.. .nor concealed
ni ...jcomo es? nor.. . what?

GL : Ehhh ... uhhh.. .

MM: Ni ardid ni engafio. Neither ruse nor deceit.

GL: ...ni con ardid ni con engaiio. ...nor with ruse or deceit.

AA: Si, asi decia ...este, y...nada. Porque
yo me acuerdo qu ...El que ellos
querian hacer ...vino Ali, vino un jefe
que mandaron ellos, vi ...una seiiora
gorda.. .
Yes, that's what it said ...uh, and...nothing.
Because I remember that ...The one they
wanted to do ...Ali came, a boss they sent
came, there ca.. .a fat woman...

MM: Si. Yes.

AA: ...que mandaron supuestamente esta ...apparently sent by these people.

gente.

MM: Si. Yes.

 File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
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-
AA: Me dijo, mira. Firma esto. Cuando
pases maiiana ...esto no existe. Y
todo h e mentira. Porque esa...
GL: Eh, per0 ...
AA: ...declaracion ni siquiera existia. Era,
eh ...esa era una cosa que hicieron
en computadora ellos. Y lo
firmaron ... el ...el ...yo...el agente de
aduana ...10s dos policias. No. Yo, el
agente de aduana ...
FD: [UI] acta que nadie ...nunca te dio
una planilla para declarar?
AA: No.
MM: Pero eso es facil. Las otras
personas que venian en el ...en el
avion ...i firmaron declaracion?
AA: Nadie.
FD: ru11
MM: Entonces ...esa es la mejor prueba
de que no les dieron planillas
porque ...10s otros, aunque no
trajeran nada, estaban obligados a
presentar la declaracion.
FD: iVes?
MM: Y eso es una prueba ...de que [UI]
AA: Yo no conoz...yo lo que si no sk es
que si la tiene el piloto o la hizo el
She told me, look. Sign this. When you come
by tomorrow ...this won't exist. And it was all a
lie. Because that ...
Uh, but.. .
...declaration didn't even exist. It was, uh ...that
was something they made up on the computer.
And they signed it ...the ...the ...me... the customs
agent ...the two policemen. No. Myself, the
Customs agent.. .
[UI] document that nobody ...never gave you a
form in order to declare?
No.
But that's easy. The other people that came on
the...on the plane ...did they sign the
declaration?
Nobody.
So...that's the best proof that they didn't pass
out forms because ...the others, even though
they brought nothing, were supposed to present
the declaration.
You see?
And that's proof.. .that [UI]
I don't kno ...what I don't know is whether the
pilot has it or whether the pilot made it.
File Number: MM-109803
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e 1 CD: R2a

piloto.

MM: No, per0 [UI] No, but [UI]

[SCI

AA: Ahora, per0 yo no la firmi. Now, but I didn't sign it.

MM: [UI] la declaracion de aduana es [UI] the customs declaration is very personal.
personalisima.

GL : No, es personal. No, it's personal.

FD: No la llena el piloto. It's not filled out by the pilot.

MM: El piloto no puede hacer la decl ar... The pilot cannot make out the declar ...

FD: La tienes que firmar tu. Como aqui, You have to sign it. Like here, Alejandro.
Alejandro.

GL: Es como aqui. Cuando llegas aqui, It's like here. When you arrive here, you always
siempre tenes ... have to ...

AA: Si, si. Yes, yes.

GL: ...que tener la declaracion de ...have the customs declaration.

aduana.

AA: Si, asi es. Si, per0 a veces 10s Yes, that's so. Yes, but sometimes the pilots fill
pilotos la llenan, jno? them out, right?

GL: Hay ... There's. ..

AA: TambiCn. Also.

FD: La llenan, per0 la firmas tu. They fill them out, but you sign it.

AA: [UIl [UT]

File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
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GL: ...hay fallos que dicen que si no te
dan la declaraci6n ...
FD: No hay delito.
GL: ...eh, no ...no hay ...no hay infracci6n.
FD: No hay infraccion.
MM: 0 sea, que a lo mejor ni multa.
GL: Pero ...
GL: ...pero estamos...
MM: [UI] con todo ... [RISA] [UI]
GL: ...pero, lo que pasa que, como se...
esto que hablamos de hoy. Que ...se
mete la ...la ...la cuestion mediatica.
Entonces, se tiene que meter la
politica. Porque si 10s diarios no
hubieran dicho nada ...ahi no pasaba
absolutamente nada.
AA: MoisCs, y.. .y...y...Y jte aseguran
que ... que en Argentina nos van a
ayudar y todo eso?
MM: Claro. Y esa promesa la tengo hoy.
Hoy otra vez, y esta fresquecita.
Pero.. .vamos a suponer.. .Firmas
el ...el ...la designacion. Vamos ...a
Argentina, iniciamos 10s tramites.
~Cuantoes un tiempo prudencial
para obtener la e...la...? Teniendo
...there's rulings that state that if they don't give
you the declaration...
1 There's no offense.
...uh, no.. .there's no.. .there's no infraction.
1 There's no infraction.
In other words, perhaps not even a fine.
But ...
...but we're ...
[UI] with everything... [CHUCKLE] [UI]
...but what happens is that since...this that we
talked about today. That ...the media thing ...gets
involved. So, politics gets involved. Because if
the newspapers hadn't said anything ...
absolutely nothing would have happened.
Moises, and.. .and...and.. .And are they
promising you in Argentina that ...that they'll
help us and all?
Sure. And I have that promise today. Again
today, and it's fresh. But ...let's suppose ...You
sign the ...the ...the appointment. We go ...to
Argentina, we start the proceedings.What is a
reasonable amount of time to get the ...the ...?
Counting on support, how soon can we get
the. ..ex ...immunity from prison?
 File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
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-
apoyo jen c u h t o tiempo podemos
obtener la.. .excarcela.. .la.. .
exoneracion de prisibn?
GL: Un mes.
MM: jTeniendo apoyo?
GL: En la ...en la c h a r a .
MM: Si.
GL: Si, entre ...entre quince dias y un
mes.
MM: Okey. Si en un mes no pas6 nada ...
me llamas, me insultas, me mentas la
madre ...y revocas el poder, y ya. Y
no vas a estar peor de lo que estas
ahorita. Ahora, si no a...p...Habras
quedado como que te defendiste y
como que mandaste un abogado y
tal. Si, este ...p ero si no haces nada,
dentro de un mes, vas a estar mucho
peor de lo que estas ahorita.
Porque ...en ...a. ..tu actitud en...
desde el punto de vista juridico, se
llama contumacia. Y es la
resistencia...a presentarte ante la
justicia. La ...Y eso ...es un agravante
en cualquier...situation.
GL: Es...y...y...Es...Lo que te dice es
cierto. Eh, en la Argentina la
contumacia es la que tambikn se le
llama rebeldia. Si...si tu no haces
ningun gesto positivo para entrar
en ...en el expediente ...te has
quedado rebelde. En cambio, si
intentas...
A month.
Counting on support?
In the ...in court.
Yes.
Yes, between ...between fifteen days and a
month.
Okay. If nothing happens within a month ...you
can call me, insult me, insult my mother ...and
revoke the power of attorney, and that's it. And
you won't be worse than you are now. Now, if
you don't a...You will look as if you defended
yourself and that you sent a lawyer and all. If,
uh ...but if you do nothing, within a month you'll
be far worse than you are now. Because ... in ...
your attitude in ...from a legal point of view, is
known as contempt of court. And it's
resistance ...to face justice. The ...And that ...is
an aggravating factor in any...situation.
It's...and...and...Itts...What he's telling you is
true. Uh, in Argentina, contempt of court is
what is also called nonappearance. If.. .if you
don't make any positive gesture to appear in
court...y ou have incurred in contempt of court.
However, if you attempt ...
 File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
MM: Te has quedado delinquiendo, pues.
GL: ...si intentas...y dicen, "Seiiores, si
u.. ." Si intento, porque.. .iPor quC?
Porque tengo derecho. La eximicion
de prision es para estos casos.
MM: Ademas, que tu ...tu argument0 es
valido. iPor que yo me tengo que
someter...?
GL: Necesito ir a1 baiio [UI]
MM: iPor que yo me tengo que someter
a prision ...si lo que yo cometi h e
una infraccion?
FD: En dado caso que la haya cometido.
-
MM: En dado caso que la haya cometido.
Porque ahorita si ...si no te dieron la
planilla, imaginate. Y entonces ...
siendo en el peor de 10s casos la ...lo
que yo cometi una infraccion... ipor
que me tengo que poner a derecho
como que yo hubiera cometido un
delito? Yo por eso pido la
exoneracion y me present0 y me
pongo a derecho...con la ...eh, con
el ...el escenario juridic0 de una
infraccion.
AA: Can...can I borrow a pen?
UF: I'm sorry...
AA: A pen.. .
You have stayed committing crimes, then.
...if you attempt.. .and they say, "Gentlemen,
if. .." If I attempt, why ...Why? Because it's my
right. Immunity from prison is for these cases.
Furthermore, your ...y our argument is valid.
Why should I have to submit ...?
I need to go to the rest room [Ul]
Why need I submit to prison ...if what I
committed was an infraction?
In the event that he committed it.
In the event that he committed it. Because now
if. ..if they didn't give you the form, imagine.
And then ...in the worst scenario the ...what I
committed was an infraction...why must I
submit to the law as if I had committed an
offense? That's why I ask for immunity and I
present myself and submit to the law ...with
the ...uh, within ...the legal framework of an
infraction.
Can...can I borrow a pen?
I'm sorry...
A pen..
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

UF : A pen? Sure. A pen? Sure.

FD: L Q Upaso?
~ What happened?

AA: Quiero anotar el e-mail mio a el. I want to write out my e-mail for him.

MM: Ah, enton ...Yo lo tengo aqui abierto Oh, th ...I've got it open here to ...write it
para ...anotarlo aqui directo. directly.

AA: Toma. Pones Alejandro Antonini.. . Here. Write Alejandro Antonini ...g- mail.com.
g-mail. com.

MM: El mio es MoisesMaionica@g- Mine is MoisesMaionica@~-mail.com.

mail.com.

UF : Burning a lot of calories tonight. Burning a lot of calories tonight. Running

Running around. around.

AA : Yeah. [RISA] Dejame anotarlo, Yeah. [CHUCKLE] Let me write it down,

Moises. [Suspira]. Y, ~Carlos? Moises. [Sighs]. And, Carlos?

FD : Se fue. He left.

MM: ~ C u a n d ose h e ? When did he leave?

FD : Hoy. Today.

MM: Me daba la cola a mi con el. He was giving me a ride.

FD: No, se h e ... No, he went ...

MM: iEn comercial? On a commercial flight?

FD: ...en vuelo comercial. ...on a commercial flight.

MM: Ah, igual [UI] Oh, the same[LTI]

[PAUSA] [PAUSE]

AA: iC6m0 se escribe Maionica? How do you spell Maionica?

File Number: MM- 109803
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T a ~ Number
e / CD: R2a

MM: M...a...i latina ...o...n...i latina...c...a. M...a...i...o...n...i...c...a.

AA: Ya. Okay.

MM: Maionica. Maionica.

AA: M...a...i latina ...o... M...a...i...o...

MM: N...i...c...a. Exactarnente. N...i...c.. .a. Exactly.

AA: jC6m0 es? Es Moises ... How is it? It's Moises ...

MM: MoisCs Maionica ...@,gmail.com. Moises Maionica ...Onmail.com.

AA: M...a... No. M...a...No.

MM: I... I...

AA: M.. .a.. .juh? Ma. M...a...uh? Ma.

MM: M...a...i la ...i latina...o...n...i latina ... M.. .a...i.. .i...o.. .n. ..i.. .c. ..a. Hm-mm. Do you
c. ..a. Hm-rnrn. LA ti te llega el get gmail over there?
gmail ahi?

[PAUSA] [PAUSE]

AA: Moises, ~ C O es ~ que

O era el Moises, what's the telephone over there? One
telefono de alla? Uno nove ...uno ... nin ...one ...

MM: jEl mio? Mine?

AA: Si, nueve cinco cuatro, jverdad? Yes, nine five four, right?

MM: Aja. Ehh ...nueve dieciocho treinta Uh-huh. Uhh ...nine eighteen thirty twenty-four.
veinticuatro.

[PAUSA] [PAUSE]

AA: M...m...me...me disculpa ...pero es Excuse me.. .me.. .but it's that.. .understand.. .
que.. .e. ..entiende.. .
 File Number: MM- 109803
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Tape Number / CD: R2a
-
GL: Pero ...te entiendo perfectamente.
GL: Para.
AA: ...conmigo y todo, per0 ...
FD: No, gordo, yo no estoy molesto
contigo.
GL : Mi ...mirh. Eh, tengo cuarenta afios...
FD: Alejandro ...
GL: ..,.de abo...
FD: Yo no estoy molesto contigo.
Quiero que tengas claro. No estoy
nada molesto contigo. Por esta
situacion, yo no estoy molesto
contigo. Para nada, chamo.
MM: Lo que pasa que ...el ...eh ...tienes
que entender a Franklin y...y...y 61,
siendo tu amigo, yo lo entiendo.
Cuando uno esta en una situacion
como la que te encuentras tu, a
veces alguien necesita que te
sacudan, jno?, pa' que. ..
AA: Pa' reaccionar.
MM: ...pa' que...porque no es fhcil [UI]
AA: Bueno, porque ...Pero a ti tambien te
voy a decir algo. A m. ..a mi en
I But ...I understand you perfectly. Uh ...
Stop.
...with me and all, but ...
No, pal, I'm not upset with you.
I Lo ...look. Uh, I've spent forty years ...
Alejandro ...
...as a lawy ...
I'm not upset with you. I want you to know that
clearly. I'm not the least upset with you. I'm not
the least upset with you over this situation. In
the least, kid.
It's just that.. .the...uh...you've got to understand
Franklin and ...and ...and he, being your friend, I
understand him. When one finds oneself in a
situation like yours, sometimes you need
somebody to shake you up, right? To ...
To react.
...to ...because it's not easy [UI]
Well, because ...But also let me tell you
something. I...I was told in PDVSA ..."Don't
 File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a --
--

PDVSA me dijeron.. ."QuCdate worry, don't say anything, don't ...don't say
tranquilo, no hables nada, no ga ...no anything, everything...everything is going to get
digas nada, todo ...todo se va a fixed."
arreglar."

FD: La persona que te inform6 a ti de

eso ...
I The person who told you that ...

AA: Bue ...Estarnos claro. We1...That's clear.

FD : ...no tenia el control de nada. ...had no control over anything.

AA: Bueno, okey, Frank. Pero lo hizo. Well, okay, Frank. But he did so.

FD: Tan ...tan... So...so...

AA: Lo hizo, Frank. He did it, Frank.

FD: ...tan... ...SO...

-
AA: Lo hizo. He did it.

FD: ...tanto ...que te dijo que se habia ...so much so...that he told you he'd left the job,
separado del cargo, que no estaba that he wasn't fired when he was fired for good.
botado y estaba super botado.

AA: No, no, no. Eso no me lo dijo. Me
lo ...me lo dijeron que si estaba
botado. Desde que lleg6 a Panama
yo supe que estaba botado. No ...
n.. .eh, eso no.. .no tiene que ver.
No, no, no. He didn't tell me that. I...I was told
that he was fired. I knew he was fired the
moment he arrived to Panama. No ...uh, that
has ...has nothing to do with anything.

UF : Too light? Too light?

FD: No, that's okay. No, that's okay.

MM: Okey. Okay.

 File Number: MM- 109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
-

MM: Aunque del punto estrictamente... Though from a strictly ...

UF: Another one? Another one?

MM: ...juridico, lo que le hicieron ... ...legal point, what they did to him ...

FD: [UI] [UII

UF: Or just reg...regular water? Or just reg...regular water?

MM: ...le hicieron f i e firmar la renuncia. ...they made him sign the resignation.
[SE R ~ E ] . [LAUGHS].

FD: No, no, no. [UI] No, no, no. [UI]

UF: Okey. Okay.

AA: Claro. Y...y...y...y... Sure. And.. .and...and...and.. .

MM: Estaba auto-renunciado [Ul:] He was self-resigned [UI]

[SCI

AA : ...y algo ...y algo que a mi me ...and something ...and something that they did
hicieron ... to me...

MM: [UI] estaba auto-renunciado. [UI] he was self-resigned.

AA: ...eh ...y algo que a mi me hicieron ...uh ...and something that they did to me in
en Argentina. A mi De Vido ... Argentina. To me, De Vido ...

FD: [UI]

AA: ...y Uberti me dijeron ... ...and Uberti told me ...

FD: [UI.] en medio de 10s pe'os, la [US] in the midst of the mess, the amount [UI]
cantidad [UI]
 File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
-
AA: jC6m0 es? How is it?

FD: [UI] de ese carajo. [UI'] of that asshole.

MM: Si, jno? 1 Yes, right?

[SCI

AA: Tu nos banqueastes, nosotros te You supported us, we'll support you all the
banqueamos hasta la muerte. way.

FD: [UI] juraba que andaba hablando [UI] swore that was talking to the vice
con el vice presidente de [UI] president of [UI]

[SCI

AA: Claudio y De Vido. Claudio and De Vido.

FD: jEntiendes? You understand?

-
AA: Y mira donde estoy. And look where I am.

FD: [UI] Esos no creen [UI] [UI] They don't believe [UI]

[SCI [SCI

AA: Y yo no soy amigo de Claudio. And I'm no friend of Claudio. Rodolfo is ...
Rodolfo es. ..

[SCI [SCI

FD: [UI] no cree en nada. [UI] doesn't believe in anything.

AA: Esa era mi segunda vez en mi vida That was the second time in my life that I saw
que lo veia. No es...el ... him. It's not ...the ...

[SCI

FD: Pero, jno es el que te monto en el But wasn't he the one who boarded you on the
avion? plane?
 File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
--
AA: Claro, per0 ...pero esa fue la
segunda vez en mi vida que lo vi.
MM: jA quiin?
AA: A...Bueno, es la tercera vez porque
lo vi en ..."Habla el Presidente". A mi
Claudio me dice a mi ...Yo lo vi
qui ...diez minutos la primera vez...
MM: Ah ...
AA: ...desp ...
FD: S e g h Claudio ...
AA: ...o sea, Uberti ...
FD: ...el no te invito. El ...el ...61...
AA: Ya va, Frank.
FD: Segun Claudio. O...Pa' que estCs
claro, gordo. Segun Claudio, C1 no
te invito a1 avion. Tu fuiste un
invitado del hijo de Diego.
AA: Eso es mentira, eso es solamente un
[UI] Me llamo Victoria y su
asistente y despuks me llam6 el. Me
llamo Marjorie, Victoria y luego su
asistente. Perdon. Marjorie ...en
el ...en ...en el interim, mil veces
Daniel. En e... Victoria ...y le dije
que no sabia...y me llamo Claudio.
0 sea, asi ... Bueno, llamo Victoria,
jno? "Te paso con Claudio." El tipo
me dijo ... "Oye, me gustaria mucho,
asi hablamos de 10s tubos de gas
de.. . de. ..de.. .jc6m0 se llama?,
Sure, but ...but that was the second time in my
life that I saw him.
Who?
To ...Okay, it's the third time because I saw him
at ..."The President Speaks." Claudio tells me ...I
saw him fif...ten minutes the first time ...
...aft...
According to Claudio.. .
...in other words, Uberti ...
...he didn't invite you. He ...he ...he ...
Wait, Frank.
According to Claudio. Or ...So you know,
gordo. According to Claudio, he didn't invite
you on the plane. You were a guest of Diego's
son.
That's a lie, that's only a [Ul] Victoria called me
and then her assistant and then he called me. I
got calls from Marjorie, from Victoria and then
from her assistant. Excuse me. Marjorie ...in
the ...in...in between, a thousand times from
Daniel. In ... Victoria ...and I told her I didn't
know ...and Claudio called me. In other words,
like that ... Well, Victoria called, right? "Let me
give you Claudio." The guy said to me ..."Listen,
I would like very much, so we can talk about
the gas pipelines from...from ...from ...what's the
name? of...of the compa ...of. .."
File Number: MM- 109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
T g e Number / CD: R2a
- -
de...de la compa ...de ..."
FD: jEnarsa?
AA: De Enarsa. "Y asi aprovechas y
conoces a..." Que ni pude hablar ...
Este seiior me da una sa...El si
pue ...el si puede decir ...que se sento
a1 lado mio y yo no lo conoci,
porque el todo lo que dijo h e ,
"jC6m0 est$ c6mo esta? Mucho
gusto ..." Pero ...mas nada. El avion
se movio, hub0 una turbulencia, el
se asusto tanto ...q ue no me habl6
mas en ...en seis horas de vuelo.
Entonces.. .Pero...a mi. ..eh, la
tercera vez que vi a Claudio, que
h e cuando el Presidente Chavez le
dice, "Claudio, estas muy delgado."
Y le dice, "Uberti, estas ...le estas
ha.. .hacienda trabajar mucho a. ..a. ..
a De Vido.'' Cuando se termina
todo, a mi me jalan para un lado ...
Diego me lleva pa' que Ramirez me
vea. Y Ramirez se voltea, me va a
decir algo pero no me dice nada. 0
sea, me vio, mas, no me saludo. En
cambio, estos dos se acercaron ...
jverdad? Este ...y me dice ...y me
dijo De Vido, "Tu nos ..." jComo es
que h e eso?
GL : jEl10s donde estaban? Ese ...ese
escenario.
AA: En el ...donde estaba la television,
donde estaba...jc6m0 se llama?
GL : Kirchner.
Enarsa?
From Enarsa. "And that way you can meet ..." I
wasn't even able to talk ...This man gives me a...
He ca...he can say...that he sat next to me and
that I didn't meet him, because all he said was,
"How are you, how are you? Pleased to meet
you ..." But ...nothing else. The plane shook,
there was turbulence, he was so frightened...
that he didn't talk to me for more than...six
hours of flying time. Then ...But ...to me ...uh, the
third time I saw Claudio was ...when President
Chavez says, "Claudio, you're very thin." And
he says, "Uberti, you are...you're...making De
Vido work very hard." When everything is
over, I'm pulled to one side...Diego takes me...
to see Ramirez. And Ramirez turns around, he's
about to say something to me but he doesn't tell
me anything. In other words, he saw me, yet he
didn't greet me. Whereas these two
approached me. ..right? Uh.. .and he said. ..and
De Vido said to me, "You How was that?
...'I
Where were they? That...that scene.
At the ...where the television was, where ...
what's his name?
Kirchner.
 File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

AA: Si, un ...un salon ...donde hablaron

10s...
1 Yes, in ...in a hall ...where the ...

GL: Ahh.

AA: ...dos presidentes.

GL: Si, este ... Yes, uh ...

AA: ~ C Ose~llama
O el salon? What's the hall's name?

GL: Blanco. iSa10n Blanco? I White. White Hall?

AA: Si, que tiene un ...es como muy

frances.

GL: Si, si. El Salon Blanco. Yes, yes. The White Hall.

[SCI [SCI
-
AA: Pero, es chiqui ...pero...pero es But it's sma ...but ...but it's small.
pequefio.

GL: El Salon Blanco de la Casa Rosada, I The White Hall at the Pink House, yes.

GL : Si.

AA: 0 sea, no es grande. Pareciera mas I mean, it's not large. It seems bigger but it's
grande, per0 no es. not.

GL: Si.

AA: Pero ...Y, entonces, el dice ...este ... But.. .And, so, he says...uh.. ."You supported
"Tu nos banqueastes ...y te vamos us ...and we're going to ...support you until the
a...banquear hasta la muerte." Y very end." And between both of them they
entre ellos dos comentaron ... said ...
 File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
-
GL: Pero esto...esto...iya habia pasado But this.. .this. ..had the [UI] already happened?
lo de [UI]?

MM: Si, si, si. Yes, yes, yes.

FD: El dia siguiente. The following day.

AA: E...eso he... T...that was ...

GL: El dia siguien... The following day ...

AA: Eso fue...No. Es ... That was ...No. It's ...

FD: iDos dias despues? Two days later?

AA: No. ~ E S hOe el sabado...? El lunes. No. Was that on Saturday...? On Monday. On
El lunes. Y el martes en la Monday. And the news came out on Tuesday
madrugada sale la noticia. at dawn. So...
Entonces. ..

FD: [UI]

AA: Perdon, tu tienes ...0 sea, todo el
mundo tiene que entender, coiio,
che ...Yo estoy ahi y estan 10s
presidentes ahi, estan con 10s...hasta
10s viejos se estin... [UI] 10s
estan ...se 10s estan llevando para
otro salon, cuando a mi me dicen
eso. Y Chavez a 10s unicos dos
argentinos...
Sorry, you have ...In other words, everybody
has to understand, damn ...I'm there and the
presidents are there, they're with the ... [UI]
even the old men are... [UI] they are...they're
being taken to another hall when they tell me
that. And the only two Argentines to whom
Chavez ...

GL: iEh?

AA: Bueno, saludo a tres argentinos. A Well, he greeted three Argentines. A

un empresario que no me acuerdo businessman whose name I don't remember.
su nombre. Pero a 10s unicos tres But the only three Argentines that Chavez
argentinos que Chavez salud6 he... greeted were ...First he said, "Claudio, you're
File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
Primero dijo, "Claudio, estas muy
delgado." Y despues le dijo, "Julio,
le...10s estas poniendo mucho a
trabajar." Y saludo a un empresario
que no sC quien es, un...un sefior
grande, gordo ...que no me acuerdo
el nombre, pero el no salud6 a
n i n g h venezolano. 0 sea, Chavez
nada present6 ...a estos dos. Yo,
cuando me dicen eso ...yo dig0
nada, aqui no pas6 nada.
MM: Si, claro.
AA: Bueno, el lunes en. ..en la ...el martes
en la madrugada ...sale la noticia.
Que yo decido, no, yo me voy.
jPor quC ahora mentiras?
AA: 0 , no ...o, jnunca tuvieron ...? 0 ,
no ...0 sea, o...o yo no se cual es la
agenda. No ...no ...
MM: Pero la noticia que sale fue la del ...
que habia ocurrido la vaina.
AA: Bueno, que le habian...Bueno, un
maletin de ochocientos mil dolares
con un venezolano. Entonces, yo le
pregunto a1 asistente que estaba
conrnigo, ehh...Victoria. En un
siti ...tomando unos tragos. Y me
dice ... "jViste? Habia que darle
algo a la oposicion. Le dimos eso,
pero tu nombre no esta." Pero, yo
ante eso, dije, " ~ T sabes
u que? Yo
guardo distancia ...hasta que de
verdad arreglen el rollo." Y nunca lo
very thin." And then he said, "Julio, you're
working them very hard." And he greeted a
businessman whom I don't know, a...a large, fat
man...whose name I don't remember, but he
didn't greet any Venezuelan. In other words,
Chavez didn't present anything...to these two.
When they told me that ...l said to myself,
nothing, nothing happened here.
Yes, of course.
Well, Monday at.. .at...Tuesday at dawn.. .the
news is out. I decide, no, I'm leaving. Why the
lies now?
Or, no ...or didn't they ever have ...? Or, not ...In
other words, or ...or I don't know the agenda.
No ...no. ..
But the news that came out was about ...that the
thing had happened.
Well, that they had ...Well, a briefcase with
eight hundred thousand dollars and a
Venezuelan. Then, I ask the assistant who was
with me, uhh...Victoria. In a plac ...having some
drinks. And she tells me ..."You see? Something
had to be given to the opposition. We gave
them that, but your name isn't there." But, faced
with that, I said, "You know what? I'm keeping
my distance ...until they honestly fix the mess."
And they never fixe... And they always told
me ... Wh ... They got scared ...Wh ...when I
went to Uruguay, they sent a PDVSA plane to
File Number: MM- 109803
Date/Time Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape
--
Number / CD: R2a
arreglar ... Y siempre me
dijeron ...Cua...Ellos se
asustaron...Cu ...cuando yo me f i i a
Uruguay, ellos mandaron un avion
de PDVSA a buscarme. Y a mi me
llamo Victoria pa' decinne que si no
me montaba en ese avion, que ella
mandaba un avion de la ...de la
Republica Argentina a buscarme.
Pero que a mi no me pasaba nada.
Y yo no me regreso porque a
Marjorie Gutierrez, de PDVSA, le
requisaron el avion antes de salir, a
buscar en el avion del Min ...de uno
de 10s aviones...de PDVSA, y ella
me dijo, "No es seguro que te
regreses." 0 sea... A mi la misma
PDVSA me dice ... Argentina ...se
esta portando ...con nosotros como
no es. Entonces ...
MM: No, es que en principio f i e asi. En
principio hub0 un desbarateo.. .
porque.. .
AA: Ah ...le requisaron ...Ella f i e a
buscarme. Yo vi el Falcon aterrizar.
Yo lo vi ...con mis ojos. Yo estaba
en el aeropuerto y le dije que yo
estaba en el hotel. ~Verdad?Y
cuando ella a...aterriza me llama
porque ... [UI] abro la puerta y
aparecio la llamada. Y yo le dije
que estaba en el aeropuerto. Ni le
dije que la estaba viendo. Y le dije,
no, [UI] anota que...q ue es cuarenta
y cinco minutos, per0 que [Ul] no
queria inne con ella. Entonces, ella
me dice, "Ya te llamo cuando estC
en el ...en el ...en el carro de
get me. Victoria called to say that if I didn't get
on that plane, that she would send a plane
from ...from the Argentine Republic to get me.
But that nothing would happen to me. And I
didn't return because Marjorie Gutierrez, from
PDVSA, had her plane inspected before
leaving, to check the plane of the Min ...one of
the planes ...of PDVSA, and she told me, "It's
not certain that you'll return." I mean... PDVSA
itself told me. .. Argentina ...is behaving ...with us
like it shouldn't. So...
No, at the beginning it was like that. At first
there was a screw-up...because.. .
Uh ...they checked her ...She went to fetch me. I
saw the Falcon land. I saw it ...with my eyes. I
was at the airport and I told her I was at the
hotel. Right? And when she ...landed she called
me because ... [UJ] I open the door and the call
came in. I even didn't tell her I was at the
airport. And J told her that I was seeing her.
And I said, no, [UI] write down that ...that it's
forty-five minutes, but that [UI] I didn't want to
go with her. So, she says to me, "I'll call you
when I'm in the ...in the ...in PDVSA's car." She
was coming to get me from Uruguay and she
says, "You're right, don't get on board and
don't go to that shit because those bastards
inspected the plane before leaving." It was
 File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
-

PDVSA." Me venia a buscar de necessary to call the Foreign Minister so

Uruguay y me dice, "Tienes razon, they ...would lay off. So...
no te montes y no te vayas pa' esa
mierda porque esos coiios de madre
me lo requisaron el avion antes de
salir." Hubo que llamar a1 Canciller
pa' que ...dejara la vaina. Entonces ...

GL: Pero, jpor que requisaron el avion? But why did they check the plane?

AA: Ah, bueno, no se. Lo ...se 10s

requi saron.

GL: Pero a vos no te buscaban en ese But they weren't looking for you then.
momento.

AA: No, requisaron el a...No, no. No, they checked the pl ...No, no.

AA : Requisan por dinero. Estaban They check for money. They were looking...
buscando.. .Ella me dice que.. .que She tells me that ...that they wanted ...to see if. ..
querian... a ver si ...jcuanta plata hay how much money is there here?
aqui?

MM:

AA:
[RISA]

jCuanta plata hay aqui? le dijeron a

I How much money is there here, they asked
Marjorie. Bueno.. . Marjorie. Well ...

FD: Tenia razon. De no confiar. He was right. Not to trust [them].

MM: Claro, claro. Sure, sure.

GL: No, y tenes toda la razon del I No, and you're absolutely right. But, well ...
-
mundo. Pero, bueno.. . I
 File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
MM: Si, [UI]
AA: Ella me dice ...Eh ...
GL: iTe puedo robar un poquito de
limon?
FD: Por favor, [UI]
AA: Ella ...ella me dice a mi ...ella me dice
a mi, "Alejandro, el unico que firma
el avi6n es el Ministro. Porque este
avion ...
GL: Gracias.
-
AA: ...no lo puede mover ni siquiera
Diego. El unico que autoriza este
vuelo es el Ministro. 0 sea, yo ...
eh ...Esta en cuenta que 61 te va a
estar esperando cuando llegues."
Salen...a buscarme, aterriza el
Falcon veinticinco minutos
despues ...y...y ella me dice, "Mira,
no te vayas pa' esa mierda porque
me lo requisaron ...a ver si teniamos
dinero en el avion." Hubo que llamar
a la Cancilleria. No se a quien tuvo
que llamar. A todas estas, yo
asustado, con el corazon aqui. Le
dije, no, anda ...anda vete a...a
se Ilama? A1 hotel, que ahi ...
ahi te espero. Y de ahi me llama con
el ...con Rafael Ramirez. Y yo no
aparecia por ningun lado por ...
Logico. Cuando me Ilama, yo
Yes, [UT]
She tells me ...Uh ...
Can I steal a little lemon from you?
Please, [UI]
She...she tells me ...she tells me, "Alejandro, the
only one who signs off on the plane is the
Minister. Not even Diego ...
Thank you.
...can move this plane. The only one who
authorizes this flight is the Minister. In other
words, I...uh...Be aware that he'll be waiting for
you when you arrive." They go out ...to find
me.. .the Falcon lands twenty-five minutes
later ...and...and she tells me, "Look, don't go
on that piece of shit because the checked it ...to
see if we had money on the plane." It became
necessary to call the Foreign Affairs Ministry. I
don't know who they had to call to. Meanwhile,
I'm scared, with my heart racing. I said, no,
go ...g 0.. .go to.. .to, what's the name? To the
hotel, where ...where I'll wait for you. And from
there she calls me with the ...with Rafael
Ramirez. And I wasn't anywhere to be found ...
Obviously. When he calls me, I'm on a plane,
coming here. So, whatever ...?
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a

estaba montado en un avion,

vinikndome pa' aci. Entonces,
jc6mo quiera ...?

GL: i Y vos viajaste con Ramirez? And you traveled with Ramirez?

AA: Nunca. Nunca en la vida. Never. Never in my life.

FD: ~ N u n c ahablaste con Ramirez? You never spoke to Ramirez?

AA: No. Pero ...t...pero me lo iban a No. But ...but they were going to get him on the
pasar. Me lo iban a pasar. Pero, phone for me. They were going to get him on
e...e...entie... the line. But, un ...under ...

GL: Pero, bueno.. . Well, but ...

AA: ...entiende. ~Entiendes? ...understand. You understand?

GL : Ahi ...este ... [UI] no me sale el There. ..uh ... [UI] I can't remember the name.
nombre. [UI] le llamaste. [UI] you called her.

MM: Marjorie [UI] Marjorie [UI]

AA: Marjorie, claro. Marjorie, of course.

GL: Pero, lo que pasa es que ...
evidentemente, esa plata era para
Cristina porque ...donde ...le. ..
tendrian que haber rajado al.. .al.. .a1
de ...Enarsa, no a...no a Uberti.
But it's just that ...obviously that money was for
Cristina because ...where ...the ...they should
have fired the.. .the.. .the one from.. .Enarsa,
not.. .not Uberti.

AA: Ya. Right.

GL: Porque ...el viaje era de Enarsa. Because ...the trip was Enarsa's.

FD: Claro. Right.

GL: Porque le rajaron a Uberti. Because they fired Uberti.

FD: [UIl
 File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
- Tape Number 1 CD: R2a
FD: Agarraron a1 mas pendejo.
GL: A Uberti y a la secretaria.
FD: Por eso. Los mas desechables.
GL: Pero, vos te ...tenes toda la razon del
mundo que...Pero ...lo que el te
propone ...es neutro. Es bueno
saber... per0 es neutro. Eh, es
mejor. Porque la pelea juridica
siempre hay que darla.
AA: Okey.
GL: Aunque estes solo.
MM: Aunque este solo. Exactamente. No
teniendo apoyo ...lo mejor que
puedes hacer es defenderte.
GL: Yo creo que si ...suponte el peor de
10s casos, nadie ...no...no hay apoyo
politico ...la Corte Suprema ...seguro,
que ...q ue a este caso le hace lugar.
Eh, digamos, por eximicion de
prision.
AA: iSi?
GL: Porque ...es una cosa que...
FD: Yo lo que quiero es que te
defiendas [UT]
..
GL : ...que es una verguenza.
Uhh?
They chose the biggest asshole.
Uberti and the secretary.
That's why. The most disposable.
But you're ...you're completely right
about ...But ...what he's suggesting to you ...is
neutral. It's good to know ...but it's neutral. Uh,
it's better. Because the legal battle always has
to be waged.
Okay.
Even if you're alone.
Even if he's alone. Exactly. Lacking support...
the best you can do is defend yourself.
I think that if...imagine the worst scenario,
nobody ...no ...there's no political support...the
Supreme Court... is sure, to ...to make room for
this case. Uh, let's say, for immunity from
prison.
Yes?
Because ...it's something...
[SCI
What I want is for you to defend yourself [UI]
...that. ..that it's shameful.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number 1 CD: R2a - -

GL: Pero, claro, eso es mucho tiempo. But, of course, that's a lot of time.

FD: Con quien tu quieras, per0 que no
caigas en rebeldias ni caigas en
contumacia ni te vengas a
defender ...detras de unos barrotes,
hermano.
With whoever you want, but don't fail to
appear and do not be found to be in contempt
of court and don't defend yourself. ..behind
bars, brother.

AA: Bueno, yo te llamo entonces ... T...te Okay, 1'11 call you then ...1'11 write you an e-mail
escribo un e-mail ahora y... now and...

MM: Si, yo te voy a pasar ...eh ... Yes, I'm going to send you ...uh ...Tell me
Cuentame algo. iCual es el pr6ximo something. What's the next step? Uh ...will you
paso? Eh ...jtu haces que me have your office send me the sample of. ..
manden de tu oficina el modelo de...

GL : No. Yo lo tengo en el ... No. I have it in the ...

MM: ...de designacibn? ...of the appointment?

GL: ..lo escribi esta mGana. ...I wrote it this morning.

MM: jEl de designacion? The one for the appointment?

GL :

MM:
Si.

Ah, bueno, entonces me lo das a mi

I Oh, okay, give it to me and I'll transcribe it.
y yo lo transcribo.

GL: Aqui faltan 10s datos de la salida de I The information on his depature is missing here.

MM: Yo lo transcribo y te lo paso a ti I'll transcribe and send it for you to ...
para que lo ...

MM: ...revises y... I ...check it and ...

 File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a -- --
-

GL : [UI] aqui faltan... [UI] missing here are. ..

MM: ...consultes con quien tu quieras. ...consult with whoever you like.

GL: ...faltan 10s datos de...de la salida de ...missing is the information about...about his
el ... departure. ..

FD: Yo consigo...q ue nos vayamos con I'll arrange ...for us to go with Karim.
Karim.

GL: Con el ...di ...digamos como sali6, a With the ...we sa. ..we say how he departed,
quC hora salio, porque [UI] what time he departed, because [Ul]

FD: Con otro. I With another one.

AA: Debe ser con...tiene que ser con un It needs to be with ...it needs to be with a notary
notario de ...de la Corte, Frank. from ...from the Court, Frank.

MM: Este ...

-
FD: LHay un notario aqui? Is there a notary here?

MM: Yo te ... Si, si, yo ...yo me encargo. I'll ... Yes, yes, I...I1lltake care of it.

GL: ~Entendesla letra? Do you understand the handwriting?

MM: Yo tengo un corresponsal aqui. I've got a correspondent here. We'll do

Hacemos todo con el. everything with him.

GL: ~Entendesla letra? I Do you understand the writing?

MM: Si. Yo transcribo y te lo paso. Yes. 1'11 transcribe and send it to you.

AA: Bueno, me voy ...me voy a ir. Que Okay, I'm going ...I'm going to leave. I'm
yo voy ...pa' el norte. going.. .north.

MM: Y, bueno, y la proxima vez que haya And, okay, and the next time there's a meeting,
reunion, si quieres la hacemos por we'll have it over there if you want.
alla.
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
AA: Ah, bueno. No, yo porque vi ...vine
a hablar con ...con ...con un abogado
que consiguio mi hermana,
americano y...que esta aqui a1 norte
de...de Sunrise pa' arriba.
GL : Y, esto s...estos son algunos
pensamientos con relacion a qu6
podemos ...decir en la Esponthea,
si es que la hacemos.
MM: Uh-huh. Eso despuCs de ver el
expediente, Guillermo.
GL : DespuCs de ver el expediente.
MM: Yo igual transcribo esto y te lo paso
para que tu lo veas.
GL : Porque ...tu esa plata la podias llevar
para hacer un aprendimiento
inmobiliario, por ejemplo, para
comprar un.. .
AA: Que h e lo que...que h e lo que
dijeron.
GL: iEh?
AA: Que fue lo que dijeron, que yo iba a
comprar un ...unos apartamentos.
GL : Y. ..iUnos apartamentos?
AA: No, y dijeron que iba a comprar
un ...iba a hacer un centro comercial.
Que eran tres millones de d6lares y
eso era la inicial.
Oh, okay. No, it's because I ca...I came to talk
with ...with ...with a lawyer that my sister got, an
American and. ..who's up here north of...up
from Sunrise.
And this ...these are some thoughts about what
we can...say in the Voluntary Appearance
statement, if we make it.
Uh-huh. That's after seeing the file, Guillermo.
After seeing the file.
I'll still transcribe this and send it for you to see.
Because...you could be taking that money for a
real estate transaction, for example, to
purchase a...
Which is what ...which is what they said.
Uh?
Which is what they said, that I was going to buy
an...some apartments.
And ...Some apartments?
No, and they said I was going to buy a...I was
going to build a shopping mall. That it was three
million dollars and that was the down payment.
 File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
-
GL: Pero, habria.. . ' But, you'd need ...

AA: Para comprar la tiena. To buy the land.

GL: ...ha.. .habria que tener el lugar... ...y ou'd need to have the location ...

AA: Ellos lo consiguieron y todo. They got it all.

GL: jEh? Uh?

AA: La gente de PDVSA lo consiguio y PDVSA's people got it all.

todo.

MM: A1 lugar, jsi? The location, yes?

AA: Consiguieron el lugar.. . They got the location ...

GL: Habia.. . It was ...

- AA: ...de tres millones de dolares... ...costing three million dollars...

GL: ...habia que pensar el lugar ... ...it was necessary to think of the location ...

AA: ...hablaron con las personas, se lo ...they talked to the people, they were going to
iban a comprar y todo. buy it and all.

MM: No juegues. No shit.

GL: Ah, jestaba eso? Oh, there was all that?

AA: Si, si. Yes, yes.

GL: [UIl

MM: Lo hizo PDVSA ahi mismo. PDVSA did it right away.

AA : PDVSA Argentina y PDVSA PDVSA Argentina and PDVSA Uruguay did

Uruguay lo hicieron. El de PDVSA it. The guy from PDVSA Argentina got the
Argentina consiguio el sitio...a1 lado location ...next to a river, I don't know, they got
de un rio, no se, consiguieron unos some commercial locations.. .and all. They
 File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
-
locales comerciales.. .y todo.
Hicieron un contrato. Te lo puedo
mandar que me lo mandaron a mi
por e-mail. Te lo voy ...
MM: Ah, j t tienes
~ el contrato?
AA: Creo que lo tengo, no se.
GL: Bueno, todo eso me lo tenis que
dar para ir pensando si decidimos.
AA: Pero pregunta porque ...pregunta tu
que...con la gente de PDVSA
porque yo.. .
MM: Si, si, si, yo me encargo.
AA: Pregunta, porque.. .deben saber.
--
GL: No, si esta...es una buena
explicacion, es. Pero lo que pasa es
que no se puede decir ...iba a
comprar y despues no ...que no pase
nada, porque es justo lo que paso
cuan ...con esta Mice ...Miceli, la...la
Ministra de Economia.
AA: jQue le paso?
GL: La Ministra de Economia le
encontraron en el baiio un.. .una
bolsa ...
MM: En dolares.
GL: Por esto...por esto es...el ...el
quilombo tuyo, el.. .s.. .s...fue el [UI]
Porque ...ehh, ehm...un mes y medio
antes, a la Ministra de Economia le
wrote up a contract. I can send it to you
because they sent it to me by e-mail. I'm going
to ...
Oh, you've got the contract?
I think I have it, I don't know.
Okay, you've got to give me all that to start
thinking if we decide.
But ask because ...y ou should ask ...the people
at PDVSA because I.. .
Yes, yes, yes, 1'11 handle it.
Ask, because ...they should know.
No, if it's ...it's a good explanation, it is. But it's
just that nothing can be said ...you were going to
buy and then no ...that nothing happens,
because that's exactly what happened whe ...
with this Mice ...Miceli, the.. .the Minister of
Economy.
What happened to her?
The Minister of Economy was found to have
a...a bag in the rest room ...
With dollars.
This is.. .this is why.. .the.. .your mess, the. ..was
the [UI] Because ...uhh, uhm...a month and a
half earlier, the Minister of Economy was found
to have ...I don't know, uh, a hundred thousand
File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
Tape Number / CD: R2a
encontraron ...no sC, eh, cien mil
dolares o sesenta mil dolares, no me
acuerdo, en el baiio.
MM: iDe la casa?
GL: En el baiio de ella. Del Ministerio.
MM: [FUSA]
GL: Le ...el personal de custodia h e y
se.. .eh...eh, vieron una valij ...una.. .
una bolsa de ...comercial,
sospechosa. Entonces...llamaron y
[UI] lo vieron, eran dolares. Y ella
salio a decir que era para.. .para.. .
que se 10s habia dado un hermano
para comprar, eh, un departamento.
Nunca pudo demostrar que ...quC
era lo que iba a comprar y que se
yo, y entonces...quedo y que tuvo
que r. ..bah, la.. .la echaron y.. .
Ademas, estaban embalados en ...
en.. .en...en...en.. .en una sa.. .saca.. .
Solo el Banco Central las da esas.
MM: [FUSA]
FG: Lo de la Ministra.
GL: Si.
MM: Vayase de aca.
GL: Entonces, por eso el ...la plata [UI]
AA: Gracias, Moises.
MM: Quedate tranquilo, hermano.
dollars or sixty thousand dollars, S don't
remember, in the rest room.
At her house?
In her rest room. At the Ministry.
[CHUCKLE]
The.. .the security guards went and.. .uh.. .uh,
saw a suitca...a. ..a commercial bag, [that was]
suspicious. So...they called and [Ul:]they saw
it, they were dollars. And she came out saying
that it was for...for.. .that a brother had given
them to her to buy, uh, an apartment. She was
never able to prove what ...what she was going
to buy and all, and then ...it turned out that she
had to r...hey, they ...they fired her and...
Besides, they were packed in ...in.. .in.. .in...in...
in a pa ...pack ...Only the Central Bank gives
those out.
[CHUCKLE]
The Minister's.
Yes.
Get out of here.
So, that's why the ...the money [US]
Thanks, Moises.
Take it easy, brother.
 File Number: MM- 109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
T a ~ Number
e / CD: R2a

AA: Chao. Mucho gusto, doctor. Bye. Pleased to meet you, doctor

GL: Eh, un gusto, jeh? 1 Uh, my pleasure, uh?

[SCI [SCI

AA: [UI] [UII

GL: Y...y...eh, sepa que si ...eh, a. .. And ...and ...uh, you should know that if. ..uh,
acepta, yo ...y o le voy a poner toda you accept, I...I1mgoing to put in all the effort
la garra que ...q ue [UI] that.. .that [UI]

AA: Chao, Frank. Bye, Frank.

MM: Chao, Gordito. Bye, Gordito.

AA: Chao, pues. Nos vemos. Chao, Bye, then. See you. Bye, then.
pues.

-. [PAUSA] [PAUSE]

[VOCES IN AL FONDO] [UI VOICES IN BACKGROUND]

AA: Coiio de la madre. Son of a bitch.

[PAUSA] [PAUSE]

AA: [UI] Hey, Mike. [Ul] come. [UI] Hey, Mike. [UI] come.

ML: He 's here? He's here?

AA: No, but he may. No, but he may.

ML: Okay. We're in the bar. Okay. We're in the bar.

[VOCES IN AL FONDO] [UI VOICES IN BACKGROUND]

AA: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

[PAUSA] [PAUSE]
-.
 File Number: MM-109803
DateITime Recorded: 08/27/07
- Tape Number / CD: R2a

?: You remember this hall right You remember this hall right here? This?
here? This?

?: What? What?

[VOCES IN AL FONDO] [UI VOICES IN BACKGROUND]

[PAUSA] [PAUSE]

AA : [UI] [UII

?: [UII [UII

AA: [Ul1 [UII

[VOCES IN AL FONDO] [UI VOICES IN BACKGROUND]

[PAUSA LARGA] [LONG PAUSE]

[RUIDOS DIVERSOS] [MISCELLANEOUS NOISES]

AA: ~ C Ote~h eO? How did you get on?

ML: Special Agent Mike Lasiewicki. Special Agent Mike Lasiewicki. Time
Time is...8:42 pm. Date is... is...8:42 pm. Date is... 08/2 7/2007. This ends
08/27/2007. This ends the the consensual monitoring.
consensual monitoring.

[END RECORDING] [END RECORDING]

[END TRANSCRIPTION] [END TRANSLATION]