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Tone

background discussion

check

c\ 24
background discussion

We need Jamie found designer we just need go date by Wednesday mormng

JZ Its this guy he said he was gonna e-mail me some samples tonight were gonna talk

about and he would be

it said there no problem to have camera ready copy to me on

Wednesday Urn didnt specify..

MT Oh thats done oh OK great so the failure case is we use the stuff we have in our

lockers

Exactly but need to know by Wednesday

JZ OK so if this
guy doesnt come through by Wednesday evening is
evening good

Wednesday noon

JZ OK if this
guy doesnt come through by Wednesday noon...

Mt How many T-shirts are you gonna make

300

MT Knowing climate is that gonna be enough

Theres 250 in..

Mt You need to figure out the rnaximum number of T-shirts..

TH And order that

MT And it wont be enough

MT And make sure theres triple in there for me

JZ Im expecting that result of this is that youre not gonna the to make enough
get money

and so Im gonna go get some made So can someone tell me like what the of sizes
range

of T-shirts one orders is and what the distribution is

MT OK anything else we need to talk about that we didnt already

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Party

Tuesday Wednesday Tuesday Wednesday

JZ OK have several friends who do like club and rave and concert promotion stuff in San

Francisco and told them all urn people would kinda like it to be down here well said

we want to have party and theyve said would love to help and then Ive said people

would kind of like it to be down here and they said Im sorry youd better find someone

else because thats out of domain cant

completely my of expertise help you

Ml Thats OK Ill
go beat up Dave

JZ So if theres party and mean if theres Jamie party its gonna be in San Francisco

urn figure wed rent bunch of busses we can get people there and back it should be

just like being down here except it takes little longer dont know kind of think thats

solvable problem Now um there are these two the two really good spaces in San

Francisco for
party of this scale would be um Sound Factory and 1015 Folsom

laughter

MT Wait second Tara having seizure

TH love 1015 Folsom it

just never occurred to me that there would be company party there

its an interesting place

JZ actually think Sound Factorys better because has lot

place it of smaller roorns like

more...anyway um sound Factory the guy is like oh yeah that would be great but on

Wednesday because theyre already booked on Tuesday Um and interesting thing about

Sound they have ISDN

Factory is an line so yeah 1015 Folsom hasnt called back yet

so theres some possibility that we could get that place on Tuesday but dont know yet

should know by the end of the day

break

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JZ My theory is that people will have to take their drinks but...

background camera discussion

JZ We want bus going from here to there like couple of times at the beginning like around

midnight and then at the end dont know like midnight one and three laughter

Mt Your call should be to understand how that fits and for it to not be ever in
your brain again

all right

TH Mr Boss lets go see what the other guys are doing

post meeting discussion

MT Dont erase the board need that stuff them

4/
discussion continues

camera comments

We always hate to branch so we dont like to do the

understand but but in when you have in the Mozilla.org world what were talking

about that want do your work away you cant do your work
is
you to on the tip You cant

have we cant have the whole world working on the at feature

tip development time its

just not gonna scale Right

certainly agree

Im trying to understand where youre going...I just youre whacking the

world and Im just scared that.

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LT OK so whats happening anyway is that were gonna get at this point we might end up

with stable point

So Netscpae want to do 5.0 Beta one what happens to that tree

LT Whats happening here is so Rhapsody is off of here and somebody else is off up here

right and we go stable ..at some point Mozilla.org says were gonna try to stabilize this

tree..

Mozilla.org is out of the picture its..

LT No Im saying that stabilizes the tree some months

Mozilla.org at point in time

OK. sight and then at this point urn we end up with Netscape going off on branch to

ship their Beta

What if
Mozilla.org isnt in the mood to stabilize at instant when
particular Netscape

needs to put out Beta

LT They can Netscape can either

go back to the last table point what are choices
Netscapes

Yeah mean thats what Im asking So youre saying that the Betas...so developers

inside of Netscape be
will basically pulling the stable points from Mozilla.org

LT No actually whatll happen is that were gonna have feature who go

developers people

they way to think about it is that theres team of people who are going off to develop the

stand alone or the compose where window

thing you can just use the
composer The mail

compose window but you dont need the rest of the mail client Thats project OK Just

say two people have the ability. .are staffed to go do that They start of here and they go

off on branch and they start working on that feature OK they build that feature based on

stable point Theyre working together theyre working on branch they think that

theyre done theyve got it so that its done its good its not gonna break the tree when

they land it and then they land it OK now if

Mozilla.org is in stabilization point at that

point and time theyll say you cant land right now Were trying to stabilize stuff were

not taking in new features We put you in the stabilization point..

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Now thats good question now it turns out he and are working together so we want

stuff in
my branch to deal with stuff in his branch cause were trying to build this beta so

the answer is theres just this external Beta branch thats running along for Netscape that

has nothing to do with your stuff thats whacking the tree and allowing us to negotiate

why the hell are we messing around in your tree

LT Im saying that for the lime being we first of all think its my opinion that its in the

nets interest to have points in the Mozilla.org tree that are that correlate to what Netscpae

ships stuff based on people are gonna want that Theyre if Mozilla.org is going off here

and taking random net changes OK and there is branch here which connotes what

people what you guys shipped people are

gonna build stuff based on that because thats

what..

Theres gonna be good point where we have destabilizing changes put into the tree by

people and theres gonna be and Netscape gonna wanna

critical bug fixes in the tree is

have some combination of the fed back to you

critical bug fixes that theyve because they

know its crashing know

they that this bug fix has to come but at the same time you just

let Fred Joe Bob land their new experimental changes because youre going hey were in

very flexible flyer mode right now were not stabilizing now these features
right are in

but were not sure if were gonna keep them and other So..
they get re-written every day

LT think were missing something lets click sound waves that we start off in sync OK All

right we are were gonna start off in Sync were gonna start off where Netscape

Its false expectation to that our plans

hope for stability will in
any way coin Netscape

and Mozilla will ever coincide

LT Netscape will always work off the last stable point of Mozilla.org

But thats often an unacceptable point you know

dont understand how like mean in your example here you have this feature

landing...you just erased it ahhhh..

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LT Im sorry Im gonna do this whatever

you have we have feature going off and landing

right and then we have some stabilization points and we have stable point and theres

some other features that came off and land here

Right and then theres another stabilization point before that right here put one right here

LT Uh OK so say we do some stabilization initial stabilization

Right so what Im worried about is like these features go off and get developed and they

land and Netscape needs to do Beta like here and theres no stabilization point after

these landed for these things to get in but Netscape needs these

LT OK but whats So theyre shipping OK

plus this
Netscape shipping this then they

would take another branch and they would that stuff here and theyd
pull into shop based

on it mean if thats what they wanted to do then thats the last stable point that they

could do that based on how else were you gonna do it What else are you gonna do
And at some point -I mean you have all this stuff on in the
going Netscape branch bug

fixing whatever that all has to get back into Mozilla.org too right

LT Right essentially what happens is that bug fixes get checked in over time

It seems like what youre saying here Lloyd is that in

everybody Netscpae is always going

to be doing on branch
everything

LT Im saying that theyre doing their feature work on branch and then they live on the tip

what does that mean

LT OK you do your feature work

Im not gonna live on the tip Im gonna live on my Beta branch because Im
LT But theres not Beta branch what Im saying is that dont theres not beta branch until

right here at the end and we ship basically

No no this youre saying Netscape beta branch

LT Im not saying there is

no the Netscape Beta branch is something very short that live off

Mozilla.org stable point OK there maybe something..

You assuming that those stable points exist in close proximity to..
very

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LT And Im saying you look way LINUX

If like the
at is developed its its release cycle

Mozilla.org has release cycles just like everybody else We take features for while we

go stable for while

But those release cycles arent going to coincide with Netscape release cycles

Javas good example where 112 or 1.1 dome number think it was two came out in

of last year Server wants to that version

February use of Java in the 4.0 version of uh

their server that theyll be shipping in the next several months Thats roughly one year

old version Now theres interesting collection of bug fixes they want in and dont want in

so the belief that we can simply pull the truth is we always operate in parallel world

We operate in the that he drew so theres

picture always gonna be this parallel branch

which has some changes in common but its not Youre drawing
simple landing picture

simple landing picture that dont think exists Java the 1.1 we ship even the 1.1

navigator version we ship is based on 1.1.4 which came out in August Thats what were

shipping in
navigator

LT Its different because theres relationship with Javasoft and theres relationship

Javasofts with and Mozilla.orgs

relationship Netscape with
relationship Netscape are

very different

Well the issue is will they take back changes Now the answer is we have the to
ability

push back changes but its often the case because we have the ability to push back

changes and theyve added their own changes were scared of their changes but we want

to push back our changes we want combination were off on branch So think were

forever so for some reason maintain

Mozilla.org is going to this branch that well forever

use and struggle to

re-sy
And Im wondering whats the value that were gaining here

dont think you get the picture youre drawing has very little to do with think reality

Reality is what he just drew Hes got to get out on his Beta his Beta and
Netscape branch

hes gonna stay there for the rest of his life until he ships continually moving changes

back and forth

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LT dont think -I dont buy that believe that thats not what Im

But this is what happened Im talking about Java and Im getting specific things about

how far away we are from the parallel source

LT ...I mean theres point in time where were

Can we just bænur guns tomonow laughs

LT Well dont get it because mean there

Well think what it boils down to is

you have Mozilla.org and you have Netscape client

engineering they it two different organizations with different goals different schedules

different motivations

LT Right and what you do is

you pick the point in time thats the last most stable thing that

Mozilla.org had and you go off and

you ship something based on that and dont see

what the problem is

No but no one..

But have some...you know major hole or

security installation bug or..

KT Fine you can fix that on...

Look at client and Server using NSPR Have you seen this happen with them where they

always use the most recent No they always go no want three versions old cause thats

stable and thats what want plus want this bug fixed its always the case they want

some funny..

LT OK but the goals of people in

Mozilla.org are hey want to stuff into
get theyre the

Netscape product so their goals are people who are shipping stuff with want
Mozilla.org

to get their stuff in Netscape branded product

Believe me this will not be secret

way to get something into Netscape branded product

LT What do you mean secret way

The point is
you cant push you cant go good if
Ijust get in to the stable release know

its gonna make there cause gonna be very

it
Netscape is critical about what theyre willing

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to take and not take both based on and so dont think that on the
marketing stability people

outside. .if we just get in to Mozilla.org..

LT Thats what the whole point is

No during stabilization
you dont take changes

LT No not during stabilization During stabilization Netscape stabilizes to point

Mozilla.org stabilizes to point Netscape says we want to go more stable than this This

isnt stable so theres more and you

enough for us stabilization that goes on sit

Your client is correlation that one stabilizes and then the other theyre just completely

different time there

All right how often do

you think these Mozilla stabilizations are going to be

LT Theyre release
cycles its regular release cycle

So like once year once every nine months

LT Yeah probably once year once every nine months thats how LENOX does it once

every two years now mean this is big development organization with lot of people it

has stabilization points

So have stabilization points that are that infrequent

LT Well actually its probably gonna be lot early and then theyll as the ambition
get longer

of the projects gets larger as it

always does right You start off short with some very

unambitiuous things you get rhythm going and then you ambitious And so some of
get

those things might arc long and they

may be tracking like BAM and the trick here is to

do these kinds of things to do them in IF DEF so you can down and up again
actually get

so they can actually look like this

See time and again

you draw five branches and Im guessing that Netscpae wants to

connect all their stuff together on one branch and be working and be moving back and forth

LT and Im saying that dont think that thats the dont believe be true
way that to

Well the problem is if youve in

they want
got people Netscape developing features that to

go in the Netscpae release an they keep landing is this thing that is not gonna be in at

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stabilization point for year or nine months then...it seems like theyre gonna keep

landing stuff on this trunk which meanwhile Netscape is off on branch at the last

stabilization point

LT Mozilla.org ...I believe wants the same thing has goal in common with Netscape and it

will be more frequently than Netscape

probably shipping

Well youre geared too much toward well well just lock the tree when Netscape locks

the tree and well just do stabilization point when Netscape does stabilization point

then its gonna off people on the net who

piss are just gonna say Netscape Mozilla.org

just does whatever Netscape wants and want to feature in but

get my theyre not gonna

let me because of some Netscape thing...they wouldnt say no to Netscape for me why

would they say no to me for Netscape

You cant be synchronizing to help Netscape because the be

theory is youre supposed to

non-specific about who youre And if then

pretty supporting you are totally support us it

becomes joke

LT But what how would you what do you want me to do different

Uh expect you to be taking changes and going for the stability releases and you expect

someone else somewhere else in the world Netscape one example be pulling these
is to

changes and trying to get in sync as much as they can But thems no way

LT OK Client is going any way it wants Mozilla.org is basically gonna have release cycle

um and all can do as someone from Mozilla.org is to advise you on how you want to

work Were gonna set CVS OK

up server if
you guys want to work differently then

Im recommending you guys are free to do that what Im trying to do what think is

best is make recommendation as to what think is best If client wants to off

really go

and live differently than this thats OK personally it looks like sheer hell to me dont

see any solution to

really easy your problem

So have another monkey wrench Ill throw in um which is how do we people in

Netscape are not of the mindset or havent been of mindset that

you know when they

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check something in its like going out to the world and if thats the its gonna be
way that

mean dont understand how were gonna make sure that the stuff is checked in
every

time someone does check in has continually sanitized

LT Well the goal mean the security stuffs obvious right you never check stuff into
any

the free source thats got security

Profanity liable

And do have to somehow like time someone wants to check in that does
every something

touch one of those areas does someone have to come in and ask me dont have the

resources to do that and cant be the gatekeeper for time someone checks
every

something in

LT Well its even worse when its external right mean checks in
suppose somebody like

putting privacy into..

Thats Mozilla.orgs problem would almost that from

argue to protect ourselves that

should be
Mozilla.org completely separate from Netscape

he also has the option of coming in like months hes

every three told
resync with

Mozilla.org and he has to sit down sanitize move stuff back and forth

LT Thats hell Jim

Im not saying its not hell this is part of the game This is part this is an expensive part

of the game and dont think that we can deny it

by drawing these pictures

LT Im not Im saying that youre missing whole point of leverage which is lam Im

doing the Java feature and can get guys at Sun to work with me because stuff
my is

publicly available OK youre youve...

.Thats false claim First of all think its an claim to

interesting say that can share

world wide but the bad news is he cant share security stuff worldwide with friends

cant share my Java so where we gonna

stuff are find these people who are sharing

LT

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The truth when want add public domain

is to feature to software contact the owner

and say hey Id like to do this stuff to speed up your JIB And he goes thats great Im

not gonna be messing you go ahead and you work on it Its not like want to share with

12 other people around the world its small constrained...

LT But think were gonna actually have feature consortiums like there is AOL instant

messenger how do we integrate that better The AOL engineers can come up and say yeah

want to do this but there

might be Netscape engineer working with them on to
it
get

it..

This has never before

happened

LT Right well know thats the whole free source has never happened before

nobody...well not at Netscape we dont know whats gonna happen based on this What

Im doing is saying we shouldnt change the

way we work so dramatically when we dont

know what kind of feedback were gonna get

think thats think and thats

right agree with that why say dont think maybe we

should rip the tree out in the middle of our work

LT OK but thats different story thats different that were having were
argument having

two different arguments we having whether we rip the tree out which think has to be

done we has to be done some

agree at point anyway right

agree it has to be done Im not anxious to rip it out while were still driving at 60 miles

an hour

The model that had envisioned with this..

originally

break

Ml .is to declare his belief

very strongly and to make sure that you understand his belief and

if
you finally say look were not going there hes like Ive registered my complaint Ill

move on But if he really believes that youre not going to talk him out of it

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Friday when we were talking he big issue was the different versions of the publii

license where does that stand

Well on Friday the thing that was had my pennies in bunch about was whether Mozilla.org

the business
was in of distributing code under other licenses other than its own because that

seriously affected whether we were all done or not And if the answer was they only take their own

licenses then we werent all done So that turned out not to be problem where we decided have

my questions about whether that is the best thing for long tenn success of Mozilla.org theres

good arguments on either side and dont really know read some e-mail today where someone

said clearly theres going to be some other organization besides because

Mozilla.org theyre gonna

be bad do the wrong thing about the licenses meaning only accept stuff under the NPL So if

that really reflects of the developers then

large percentage opinions Mozilla.org distributing code

under random sets of licenses is

absolutely the right thing to do So

Its an interesting question about who owns what...needless to say it gets

complicated VrH
kf
F-c_
Right the thing were waiting for now is the final text of the NPL and the NPL is kind of like

basically flawed because its coming form and Jamie

anyway company as says big companies are

stupid and were proving that

by the NPL that were wont be so stupid that
writing hopefully it

itll but its fairly stupid even

kill us its revised form

The reaction to it will be interesting

dont know how bad the reaction had to be mean think the reactions already way to bad and
/f
we should have just completely backed off but you know are in and whatever
processes place

things are going however theyre gonna go At some point you just have to roll with the punches

Things seem to be going well in general however

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No just details and nothing was really scary if it had been scary would have given birth to

cows there but its like write it down on the list make sure we check it off you know the hardest

thing is just knowing all the things that we ever said in room oh yeah remember to do this we

did em all Or enough of em that we feel good about and were probably gonna make some huge

horrible mistake and then well fix it later

In

Imean you make it easier if

you jut dont take bad code in the first place Right that people

understand up front what code they have

the engineering requirements are for the so that tested

their code before it comes in so that then mean you need backend
you still the
processes but

the dont end up much do

ruling you as as they as if you so the stuff
up front That makes you go

slower in the term order to go faster the long term

short in in
Historically at Netscape we havent

been willing to make that investment because the benefit we from going faster in
get the sort term is

thousandfold bigger than the benefit we would get by going slower Thats shifti ioFiic
company now but its think its knob on every piece of software where you want
C- to put

that how up front

you want to be about the quality of the code The problem is is that not

everybody who uses your software understands your tradeoffs and tl1Alffyuu..._JflJL_

you went fast on thinking it was something that you went slow on tnd4h

nuclear missiles then that would be bad thing dont know guess an interesting theory is all

software should be written to the highest Youll

possible standards get killed in the marketplace by

people how turn that notch down 10% right and are 10% less and get their software
yICthorough

out earlier so market what

the gets it
wants and to
great extent what the market wants is new

features not necessarily...I mean after they get that quality then they want quality but then once

they get quality then the next question is well wheres all the new features again So its a...I

mean the market is stupid In some the market

ways is incredibly smart this ins one of the ways

where the market is stupid

.3

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