Full Podcast pt 1.

mp3

Carter Smith [00:00:01] Hi everyone. My name is Carter Smith. I'm a nursing major at the
University of Alabama. But today's topic doesn't have much to do with the health of human
beings but rather the health of world politics. We'll be discussing the alt-right, a white
supremacist group who has emerged online over the past few years reaching the height of
their popularity during the 2016 United States presidential election. I'll be joined today by
my friend Stephen a student here at the university as well who as a person of color has
important ideas to contribute to the discussion surrounding this movement whose ultimate
goal is to create a white ethno state within the United States and Europe which would
ultimately involve removing people like Stephen from the country they were born in and
call home. While this does sound awful to identify the problem we must ask what exactly is
the alt-right. How does it differ from other white supremacist groups like the Ku Klux Klan.
Well the alt-right is a white supremacist movement similar in many ways to others but it is
unique from those groups and that they gather nearly exclusively through the Internet
primarily in message boards. You might encounter some of these people in comment
sections on Facebook and YouTube or in Twitter threads generally replying to a statement
about some social mis justice with something offensive and defending their comment as
dark humor or politically incorrect humor. The fact that they're an online presence with
message boards rather than physical communities of people who meet in person it makes
them unique and also a unique problem to come up with a solution for something else you
may not be familiar with is the term I used earlier white ethno state. This simply refers to a
chunk of physical land that is meant only to be inhabited by white people. White
supremacists usually argued that the white people are entitled to a white ethnic state
because Indians have an ethnic state in India. Asians have been at the state and Asia.
Black people have an ethnic state in Africa and etc..

Carter Smith [00:01:40] Soon I'll be talking to my friend Stephen about the alt-right. But
before I do I'd like to talk about why the alt-right is a real world threat. Despite their nearly
exclusively online presence the common sentiment to hold about the alt-right at the
beginning of their popularity was that they weren't anything to worry about. They were just
a group of teenagers and college students who got a kick out of offending people online.
That sentiment quickly changed in the past couple of weeks when a shooting was reported
in Christchurch New Zealand two mosques that claimed the lives of 50 people and injured
dozens more. The shooter left a manifesto before he went and committed the act and cited
alt-right sentiments and identifiers that could place him within the movement. It became
very obvious that this was not a threat secluded just to the world of social media. It was
something that could have real world consequences that the Christchurch shooting is very
concrete evidence of the alt-right ability to influence the world outside of the Internet. It's
not the only way that they have influenced the world so far. Many people have been
affected by these people in online spaces it the minorities who they are attacking or who is
reading the things they think about minorities or someone like the Christchurch shooter
who may have read about the alt-right ideologies and thought that a world with white
ethnic states through any means necessary is an idea that they could really get behind. In
the interview I'll be talking to a friend of mine a member of the former category of people
affected by the alt-right and getting some of his takes on the movement.

Carter Smith [00:03:06] I'm sitting here with my friend Stephen Shol.

Carter Smith [00:03:09] He's a student at the university and I thought that I want to ask
him on today because I felt he would have some unique perspectives on the issues we'll
be discussing about nationalism and the. alt-right especially in today's political climate. So
Stephen why don't you tell us a little bit about that background.

Stephen Shol [00:03:26] OK. Well my dad is originally from Belize Central America and so
he actually came to the United States. He gained citizenship to the United States after
coming over on a student visa where he met my mom at college after they got married and
had my brother they had me and they decided that they wanted to move back to Belize to
do mission work. So I actually grew up in Belize until I was eight and then I moved back to
the United States where we moved back because they wanted me and my brother to have
a better high school and middle school experience and to have you know better education
right.

Carter Smith [00:04:03] So it sounds like you come from a pretty diverse ethnic
background national background. So I thought that your perspective would be useful
because especially in today's society following the election a lot of people of color I've
noticed have. Felt a little bit alienated in the current political system because they saw the
support of Trump over America as kind of. The support of the nationalist ideas he kind of
campaigned on. How would you say that affected you. What is what is your take on that
and how does it affect you in your life.

Stephen Shol [00:04:52] Well for me I obviously was too young to vote during that last
election but it really kind of opened my eyes to you know politics and what was going on.
And so I started paying more attention. But my experience with that election was kind of
different because my dad is a legal citizen of the United States but he is also a proud
Republican. So that's you know just a little bit of a different take. You don't really think of
that you know the stereotype is usually that the Democratic Party usually does like caters
to minorities and you know people like that. And so it was different because my dad would
just support Trump and I just kind of didn't agree with that because I felt like I don't know
how you can support somebody who would hold so many other people back because I
know like my dad's lucky enough to have came over on a student visa but many many
people from Belize and other Central American countries and Mexico as well don't have
that opportunity. And so I just felt like it was really kind of hypocritical for him to support a
candidate who was just so outspoken and openly. I would I would say racist against other
Latin people and people of color.

Carter Smith [00:06:10] Do you think that particular election alienated specific groups of
people and minority groups in America.

Stephen Shol [00:06:22] Kind of a hot take but I don't feel like that specific election
alienated groups of people in America. I feel like minorities have been alienated in America
since the beginning of the founding of the country. I feel like we are just now getting to a
time where it's kind of being realized that you know the civil rights movement has had been
you know other movements have happened but it's still not enough for me especially as a
minority in America. I feel like a lot of people don't think enough to like try and understand
what other people are going through. A lot of people just live in their privilege and don't
think about other people's situations and how from just being born a certain color like their
entire life can be different. So I feel like that that past election did alienate people just
because it made you choose you know what side you wanted to be on because it was very
obvious that there was gonna be a right and a left and there was very little ground in the
middle for anybody to be on. I feel like that election did kind of divide America a little bit but
I feel like those lines were already set right. But I appreciate that response that's like pretty
insightful and I agree with the maturity of it but when I say alienated I mean more along the
lines of. Like you said there have been so many social movements in the past and like with
recently the. Supreme Court ruling on gay marriage being legalized in all 50 states and
then being followed with a.

Carter Smith [00:08:01] Military ban on transgender individuals being allowed to and also
the immigration ban. And this wasn't rhetoric. Well these were I'm sorry. These weren't
laws that should have been totally unexpected because he discussed these kind of radical
ideas in his campaign. What I'm asking Moore is do you think that the fact that. The people
in America with greater numbers do you think these minority groups feel alienated and that
they feel that the country cares more about the wants of privileged majority groups over
the less privileged minority groups that need these rights.

Stephen Shol [00:08:44] I feel like while there has been strides to kind of fix problems that
have placed minorities at a lower place in society I also feel like not enough has been has
been done. So with like your question being like are these minorities specifically alienated I
feel like they are. This last election there was a lot of hate going around. I won't even say
just from the right. It was also from the left as well. Like I feel like it's important to own up to
you know past mistakes. But I don't think that. There has been. Like enough countrywide
conversations that still need to be held because I feel like minorities are put at a
disadvantage place in America and in this last election I think that Donald Trump kind of
preyed on that. I feel like with the whole calling illegal immigrants you know basically like
you know rapists and killers and all that and the bringing up of like victims of people who
had been killed by you know illegal immigrants. I think that that he Donald Trump kind of
played that. As a way of making people scared so that they would want to do the things
that he wanted to do.

Carter Smith [00:10:09] Right. And swinging that back around to the entire right thing.
You'll see a lot of. alt-right figureheads there aren't really any specific leaders but there are
more popular members than others and even just looking on message boards like fortune
or even in some youtube comments you'll see people saying. Earp. For example the New
Zealand shooters manifesto he said. Does he see Trump as something like a. I think it was
a. Incredible president. And I think he said as a policymaker and a leader. Absolutely not.
But as somebody trying to advance our message that we try to operate under. Yes
absolutely. So I think that's really important to recognize. So would you say that. You think
that that from what you know about the alt-right do you think that that.

Carter Smith [00:11:05] Had anything to do with their sudden resurgence. Well not
resurgence more of popularity spikes.

Stephen Shol [00:11:17] I would say like just from my knowledge of the alt-right
movement.

Stephen Shol [00:11:21] I wouldn't say that I'm the most knowledgeable person on that
movement of course but I would say that I don't think What's the question like Donald
Trump lead to the resurgence of the now. Did he contribute. I think he definitely
contributed one hundred ten. I think he contributed. But I feel like this kind of nationalistic
spirit and like this kind of like movement has been around for forever.

Stephen Shol [00:11:51] I there were tons of nationalistic of course campaigns in other
countries that have happened throughout history and usually not the greatest outcomes
have come of those. But I feel like. A lot of politics especially starting in the 90s has
become more about oh America first. And putting our values. But. The difference for me is
I feel like there's a difference in people saying oh we need to put America first. But first of
all you have to define what America is right. You have to like you can't just say oh America
first make America great again but you're only making it great again for white people.
Right. And then you have to go into the question of Was America ever great exact. And a
lot of people don't want to handle those hard questions because then it makes you seem
unpatriotic. GRIER Right. Like you hate America but I feel like it's important to notice that
as a country we have problems. And I don't think that saying stuff like Make America Great
Again are like build the wall. I don't think that that's helping anybody. Honestly I feel like it's
just contributing to hate and negative opinions that I don't feel are are beneficial to the
country.

Carter Smith [00:13:02] Exactly. I think something that's part of that is the reason that that
kind of fear mongering was so successful because there are underlying issues in this
country and pinning it on Mexican immigrants or immigrants from the Middle East or
anybody like that is significantly easier than explaining to the general public what's actually
going on and why these problems are happening especially when they have preconceived
notions about why the things are happening and that can go for the right or the left. But
with the election specifically we are seeing a lot of it with the right where Trump was just
making these claims off. We're building this wall to protect our women and children from
the savages. They're rapists and murderers. And that's something that in my research for
the Albright paper that I did it was very obvious that that was a big part of their strategy for
recruiting and keeping members was talking about the fear aspect and saying this is about
protecting my family. It's about protecting my heritage. I still want to. Have that.

Stephen Shol [00:14:13] Well I feel like fear is used as a persuasive tactic biologically. But
I feel like when you stereotype a whole.

Stephen Shol [00:14:22] Race or a whole community that's when that's when I feel like it's
just plain races.

Carter Smith [00:14:30] Oh it is. I wasn't defending it. I'm. Yes.

Stephen Shol [00:14:32] Yeah I was just saying that like I feel like a lot of people use fear
because the fear is like a really effective tool in getting people mobilized and getting
people to listen to you. But I just feel like sometimes it is used for the wrong purposes.

Carter Smith [00:14:47] Absolutely. And there are like ways where it's been used
appropriately when the when we had the full Republican Congress that was threatening to
take away the Affordable Care Act and that never got passed because of the countless
town halls of people showing up saying I'm going to die if you repeal this and you have the
audacity to tell me that you don't have a plan like that's genuine fear. That's an excellent
mobilize there. But the thing with fear is that it can be manufactured very easily. It can be
placed that you can take somebody's sphere and be like oh that's if you give you get rid of
that there's nothing to be scared of anymore. And I think that was something that was
present in Trump's campaign and also similarly and with targeting similar groups in. alt-
right. Propaganda and ideology and things that they spread.

Carter Smith [00:15:40] And it contributes to their idea of why they want there. It starts
out. I was talking about dog whistles in my paper as well. It starts out where they're saying
that they want their white ethno state which is for anybody who doesn't know just a portion
of land an entire country generally in today's talk amongst alt-right they want Europe and
northern America. Some people just want the USA. It varies. And some people want the
entire world to be dominated just by white people. But the most prominent speakers are
talking about just simply designating a piece of land for. White people. And it starts from
here. Obviously it starts from a root of racism. But then you go back to Lee Atwater quote
where he's talking about you start by saying N-word Edward N-word but then you can't say
anything anymore.

Carter Smith [00:16:39] So you have to like make everything so hypothetical and get
down into it like forced busing and like voter voting tax and stuff like that. The effect is still
the same but you're just saying it differently so that way people won't call you out on it. So
it starts out from the place of we just don't like people that aren't white too. Oh we wanted
to send our wives and daughters from rapists and murderers and apparently white people
don't do that it's just everybody that's not white. And then when that gets called out it turns
into well we just want to preserve our heritage. India is the place for Indian people. Asia is
a place for Asian people. Why can't American Europe be a place for white people. It it it
gets so like analytical like it evolves as people start to catch on to those dog whistles. And
that's something that comes with the fear as well. And those all play on fear those further
like along the line dog whistles starting with. Wanting to protect your women and children
protecting them. You're scared that they're going to get murdered and pillaged and raped
and then you move on to being scared that you're going to lose your heritage.

Stephen Shol [00:17:53] I think that it's funny to me to like even think of the notion of
white people having their own land because where are they going to get it from where
they're just going to take somebody else's land which has been historically what has been
done. White people just going in somewhere and taking it over and erasing the culture of
the people that were there before it. Right. Because I mean you can say oh India is a
homeland for like ethnic Indians. OK. And but when you say America should just be for
white people.

Stephen Shol [00:18:23] America was never just for West for white people. It's a very
easy thing to dispute.

Carter Smith [00:18:30] But then when you get deeper and deeper and deeper and you
analyze it more and more and more it throws more people off and more people off. And it's
being presented as a new idea when it's just the same old idea and a new like set of
clothing. I think that's an effective strategy that the alt-right uses frequently and
unfortunately it seems to work more often than not. So we were talking about dog whistles
and I was wondering like if you were kind of familiar with what they were maybe in terms of
like how the alt-right uses them in online spaces because the alt-right is a. Largely online
platform. And so that's why it's such a threat is because it operates in kind of unique ways
we've never seen before with this newer technology. So are you familiar with any of those
dog whistles that they use.

Carter Smith [00:19:23] Not really. No. OK. Well I read about it in my paper a little bit but
they're the main two that I want to talk about are in my opinion. I categorize them as more
passive strategies and these are all strategies that were outlined in the video decrypting.
alt-right. How to recognize a fascist by counterpoints on youtube but I kind of tried to take
them into like two categories and I felt the more passive ones were the two. Called
incrementalism and camaraderie of the accused. So these could go down two separate
roads with incremental air they could work together. But I'll just explain how they work up
solo incrementalism refers to you have your goal in mind but when you're trying to get
people that don't really see things the way that you do onboard with it you get them used
to it.
Carter Smith [00:20:17] It's like kind of the concept you know like boiling the frog and
water like it won't realize that it's hot like this boiling to death into its still until it's too late.
So you start out with something like. You. Make a joke on Twitter that's like inappropriate
it's offensive starts out with that and it's like oh we just want to have the right to. Have dark
sense of humor and tell offensive jokes they're just jokes. And then you kind of build on
that more and it's like what we just want to have the right to say whatever we want. That's
kind of where we are right now with the centrist movement. I just want to kind of make a
sidebar because there's a large resurgence of the Internet skeptics that believe in
everybody's right to say whatever they feel there is even a talk by Christopher Hitchens
who is popular in one of these. But he wasn't in the YouTube era heat. He was mostly the
speaker and author.

Carter Smith [00:21:19] He talked about how the views of the Holocaust denier and what
the Holocaust denier has to say is one of the most important opinions in the room and his
right to speak should be protected at all cost. And it's a noble idea. On the surface the fact
that in America everybody has the right to free speech. Every single person does. But
when you look at the comparison of say the free speech of somebody from the right and
the free speech of somebody. From a minority group like glad or black lives matter or
something like that. With the alt-right. The purpose of their free speech is to. Reduce the
amount of rights and free speech that the more minority group has that it's targeting. But
what the goal of the minority group their goal is to increase their own rights not take them
from anybody but the goal of the more malicious like the person like a fascist or a
Holocaust denier or something like that there is is to do legitimate delegitimize I can't say
the word dude due to my delegitimize people's experiences and try to perhaps even take
some of their rights away from them.

Carter Smith [00:22:38] So I feel like that's an important thing to talk about but that's just
like a sidebar of the original thing. It can go into that like oh I just want to have the right to
say whatever I want like Is that so harsh. I'm not actually racist. And then people can kind
of get on board with that and then they're like. But while we're at it you know. Don't you
think that this is I mean we all joke about it but don't you think that this is actually true
about insert minority group here and it just kind of and people kind of come to accept that
and they're like Yeah I mean I have noticed that a lot of people do that. And it just kind of
builds from there to there to there until you get to the point where you're saying yeah I
think America should just be for white people only. And the jump from wanting to tell
offensive jokes to wanting a white ethno state that's a huge jump on its own. But when
you. Divide it into smaller increments it's easier to digest for somebody who wasn't
originally part of your ideology in the first place. So that's incrementalism and it's
something that you should look out for. And then the other strategy is camaraderie of the
accused. So you've got somebody that everybody's accusing of the fashion of being a
fascist. And they may use they may spread offensive content and just say that it's a joke.
I'm not a fascist. They they spread fascist materials and propaganda and they get attacked
for it and they say I'm not actually a fascist it's just a joke. You people have no senses of
humor or they might spread some of the kind of hidden symbols that the alt-right has
adopted like the OK emoji or the pepper the frog emoji or even the milk emoji. By the time
you hear this the images probably changed because they switch so frequently. But. The
camaraderie of the accused comes in where a centrist somebody that might not recognize
these things. Or strategies and dog whistles. Shares something like that on the Internet.
They are like oh just joke I'm just going to share it. And then they get called a fascist or
racist xenophobic homophobe transphobia whatever and they know that they're not any of
those things. And then the person who is actually those things comes up and says See I
told you I was just making a joke and they're all calling me this when I'm not actually a
fascist.

Carter Smith [00:25:07] And they're doing the same thing to you now too I know you're
not a fascist and you know I'm not a fascist because they're attacking us in the same way
for just telling a joke. And so that is how.

Carter Smith [00:25:18] The alt-right develops sympathy from people who may not even
be part of the. alt-right in the first place but that little ounce of sympathy can. Lead to the
incrementalism factor and just build on itself and build on itself and build on itself and
you've got that original sympathy and that's all that they need. So those are kind of the
things that you can look out for. But along with that about the camaraderie of the accused
something I want to ask you about is we've noticed on Twitter and Instagram recently a lot
of. What we call canceled culture and what this is is we dig up something from somebody
who's past or not even somebody is past. They just share something and this doesn't have
to. I know this mostly applies to big celebrities but this can even happen with smaller
people like with little or no following on social media and people are just like oh this
person's a racist or they're a transfer or they're a homophobe. I feel like this. Urge to just
jump down somebody's throat before trying to educate them and say Hey. I know that you
didn't mean this intentionally probably but this is actually hurtful and offensive and
probably be better not to share this type of thing in the future if you don't want people to
associate you with that. I feel like that's something that needs to happen on the part of the
left that is trying to. Encourage people who are more politically undecided to fall to their
side instead of falling for these dog whistles that play off the left's kind of reputation for
jumping on anything that's quote unquote politically incorrect they just jump on it and jump
on it with little or no remorse. And that's kind of what attracts people to the alt-right
sometimes I've found is the fact that alt-right you can say whatever you want it's a space
for free thinkers. So what do you think about that situation Stephen.

Stephen Shol [00:27:20] I feel that the creation of the Internet and you know it's kind of
implementation into most houses you know worldwide. And like it has connected a lot of
people you know that is a very good. The Internet has been very useful for allowing people
of similar interests to come together. But I feel like now that we've kind of you know we've.

Stephen Shol [00:27:45] Been using the computer for a while now we've been using these
platforms for a while now. It's kind of getting to the point where maybe not the best groups
of people would like maybe not the best interests are starting to get together and I feel like
that ties into the alt-right movement. My thoughts on canceling people and as you would
call it cancelling. Well cancel culture or whatever I feel. I do agree that it is you know
anybody can say whatever they wanted. You can you know get on Twitter type out
whatever statement you want to type out you can get on Instagram post whatever picture
you want. I have no problem with you posting whatever you want. I just feel like. You can
post what you want but don't be mad when people criticize you. Don't be mad when people
call you out because there's a difference in free speech and free speech without
consequences. You can say whatever you want but you're going to have to deal with the
consequences of what you say. And I feel like it's important for me especially my whole
life. I grew up my parents told me. Don't ever put anything on social media that you would
never do in real life or say in real life because eventually like nothing on the internet ever
goes away so eventually somebody could pull that up or do something with that. And I feel
like that's what everybody just needs to use. Like just practice common sense. You know
that's just kind of my take. I don't want people get mad when people cancel you know
people for like past actions. But I feel like sometimes it's legitimate to be mad at somebody
for stuff that they have said in the past. I think it's easy to say oh well that was when I was
young and stupid. But if you are making racist comments at 20 years old you are grown
enough to knew what you were saying to know what you're saying and to know what you
were saying was wrong.

[00:29:37] You know. Yeah I do. And you mentioned something earlier about how you
said that you should expect criticism if you say inappropriate things on the Internet. I'm not
saying that that shouldn't happen. That's what I was. That's what I'm advocating for is the
criticism. What I don't feel is helpful is if somebody makes a slightly racist joke once.

Carter Smith [00:00:01] And everyone is like that's a racist that's a racist person you're
racist sorry racist. That's not helpful because it's not telling the person what they did. It's
not telling the person how they can change or be better. And once again there's always
going to be somebody sitting right there telling them you did nothing wrong. No we we get
it but that's the thing for me.

Stephen Shol [00:00:24] If you turn to that person they're saying you did nothing wrong.
You are a racist. If you were just one hundred percent believe they when you made a
racist joke that you did nothing wrong. You are the problem. Well I feel like for people
when I'm not saying that it's good for people to hop on people just for whatever they say.
But I do feel like. Canceling somebody quote unquote canceling somebody is a form of
criticism. I feel like. Numerous amounts of people like coming at you and saying oh you're
racist or whatever that make you think on your feet real quick like that'll make you think oh
I might need to delete this I'm I need to apologize if you just sit there and let everybody say
whatever they want. That's when I feel like it gets dangerous is because if you if you're
allowing people to just say racist jokes or if you're allowing people to just say the N-word
more people will start doing it and more people start doing that they they'll think oh well it's
OK for that person to do it why can't I do it. I'm not defending that either I'm not trying to
eliminate cancelled culture completely I feel like if there's somebody that people have
been just lovely they've been like hey this might not be the best thing to be saying this
might offend some of your fans or just like people in general and that's not cool to try to cut
it out a little bit and they're still just like my throwing stuff out throwing it out throwing it out
throwing it then like OK they're like they know what they're doing.

Stephen Shol [00:01:50] And it's bad.

Stephen Shol [00:01:51] They need to be called out on it like I felt like that's that's nice.
But how long can minority people be nice for it. Do you know what I mean. Yeah. It wasn't
that long ago that the civil rights movement happened. And people were even back then
were saying about Martin Luther King Oh he is just as revolutionary. He needs to calm
down and just wait. Black people have waited for a long time.

Carter Smith [00:02:15] I don't mean to cut you off but it's interesting that you said the
thing because here's another interesting aspect of cancelled culture. You said that how
long do minorities have to be have to be nice. A big criticism of cancelled culture also is
that the majority of people calling out these other people. Are like say if a white person
makes a racist joke or like that. Maybe not. You may not be racist but is deemed by
another white person that's trying to show how like culturally minded they are. It's usually
the white person and then like this is for like more ambiguous things not like where
somebody is like blatantly using the N-word or like making slavery jokes feel like
something. I'm trying to think of good examples. But like you know what I mean right where
somebody will like I know make a joke.
Stephen Shol [00:03:04] But I think I would rather somebody actually speak out against
something than them just compulsively just sitting there and watching or you know seeing
somebody say racist stuff.

Carter Smith [00:03:16] That's fair. Yeah I see where you're coming from I just feel like in
an effort to. Keep this. To keep more people from being attracted to this movement and it
also takes into account different factors like if you see a comment from somebody on
Twitter that is very obviously like 13 or something and they say something stupid. It's not
going to help them to sit there and just call them a racist like and just your racist your
canceled your reported your the book about it in the longer it will get them off Twitter. It
won't help them learn from their actions and become a better person in the future. And
that's going to be more beneficial in the long run if somebody like us tries to say hey man
that's kind of messed up.

Stephen Shol [00:04:03] Like I just feel like it's kind of hard to ask the victim of that
situation to be the nice one. I'm not asking the victim I'm asking the person saying that I
mean if you. I feel like if. I don't think I'm not going to expect it of anyone to be nice to
somebody for making you know to go out of their way and be like hey maybe you shouldn't
have said that because I mean if you feel you know. Attacked or if you feel like this person
is actually maliciously mean.

Carter Smith [00:04:36] Oh yeah I don't blame you at all I don't blame you at all. If you
feel that they aren't mullet but it also takes like a level of judgment to yourself like sit there
look at the post and think for yourself and like we've all were they being malicious you
know where are they being malicious with this. And if the answer is No. If the answer is
yes obviously. Destroy well then obviously been.

Stephen Shol [00:04:56] There is also you have to look at the lack of person to person
contact. You don't have those social cues where whereas if you were talking face to face
with this person you would know oh they met this this type of way or they met this another
type of way right. But you don't have the facial expressions you don't have you know the
intonation that they say it with and all this different stuff and I feel like that that. It's a
separate conversation of course but I feel like when you talk about the about the amount of
people who use the internet then you think about well these children and young people
now. Well I'm young to listen to me like you know children now grow up with like tablets
and iPads and all this stuff and I know I was I had a class last semester where we talked
about it and when you take away that person to person contact that children normally
have. You also take away that aspect of socialization. Right. So I know especially for me
because I mean I did go outside and play and stuff but I used to watch TV and get on the
computer all the time as well. I know for me when I started getting older I had a hard time
talking to people on the phone because like you don't have that same socialization that
you normally would. And I feel like that's an important aspect because you don't have that
one on one contact with somebody when you just see their message on Twitter or when
you see their post on Instagram.

Carter Smith [00:06:21] Yeah yeah I think that's something to consider as well. I think it's
also interesting to add that to another way that there's another reason that the all writers
so effectively able to move through the Internet it pays off that confusion. It pays off the
confusion of people not being able to understand social cues and understand like context
about this is the type of person that this is are they being racist they pay off that kind of
confusion. And just in all types of ways when they're saying that somebody is anti free
speech and anti anti white or whatever or anti family it's like. If you're speaking that person
in real life you would probably more likely than not be able to tell. This is just like all. Crap
and they're just trying to trick me into something but you don't have that luxury on the
Internet. And it goes the opposite way as well. Somebody can. It would be a lot easier to
tell somebody sharing a fascist propaganda video is joking if they're showing it to you in
real life versus if they're sharing it on Twitter and it's easier for them to defend their
position to say Oh I'm joking it's easier for them to do it on Twitter and then it would be in
real life. And so that's another thing that I think the right uses in its arsenal of like ways that
it spreads its message is the confusion created by conflicts political conflicts on places like
Twitter and Facebook and Instagram. I think that's something important to consider as
well. But. I think we've been going for a while so I think we've had a very enlightening talk
like we have. OK well I'll let you go. Thank you for talking to me for this.

[00:08:10] And thank you for inviting me. I know you're like this has definitely been an eye
opening experience on in LA. All right. Yes. All right.

[00:08:19] Yes the tactics that they use I know better when I get on Twitter tomorrow. Why
not Sharon exactly.

[00:08:29] In the interview Steven and I were able to discuss the alt-right in a way I feel
was productive. We took turns educating each other on facts about the movement and on
perspective on each sides. This is always important to the discussion as it keeps people
on their feet with learning how to fight against the alt right and groups like it whose aim is
to oppress people. Those people are always changing their strategies so we always adapt
ours in order to kind of counter them. If listening to this podcast is convinced dude this
group is a serious issue then great. I've done what I set out to do here but you may be
wondering how you can help fight against the movement. Well there are two main things
as it can suggest. The first is something you're kind of already doing by listening to me
speak for the past eighty four years and that is to remain educated about the issue. It's
about groups like the alt-right and the effect they're having on politics. If you don't know
what you're fighting against it makes the fight itself all the more difficult. This can be done
through reading listening to podcasts and most importantly by having conversations with
people who are minorities. More often than not asking those people how to be a better ally
is the best way to learn rather than listening to another non minority tell you how to. I try
my best to be an ally to minority groups and personally not a part of. But the only way I've
ever learned what I know now about being an ally is by listening to what minority groups
are going through and how they're fighting against their own oppression. The second step
is to actually act against any oppression you may see as we now know the alt-right
frequently attempts to spread their ideas as dark humor and nothing to be taken seriously.
If you see these kinds of jokes and form the person who told them that the kind of
language they use could be very hurtful to someone the person genuinely meant no harm
by what they said they usually take down the post of their own accord. But if this is not
done report the post and or the account feeling badly about the fact that the right is
attempting to oppress people doesn't do anything to stop them from doing so if you don't
do anything to actually try to stop them yourself. At the end of the day all we can do as
individuals is call out injustice wherever and whenever we see it. But if everyone were to
band together and agree that the behavior of the alt-right is unacceptable and inherently
dangerous maybe we could one day find ourselves in a world where this type of thinking
isn't tolerated. A world where everyone can walk the earth without having to worry if they're
allowed to be there due to the color of their skin.