(eC ean CaeThe EXPERIENCE or NOTHINGNESS Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Talks on Realizing the Infinite Edited by Robert Powell, Ph.D. Br BLue DOVE Press SAN DIEGO » CALIFORNIA + 1996‘This book is the third volume of a trilogy of books by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj, edited by Robert Powell. The other volumes, also published by Blue Dove Press, are The Ultimate Medicine and The Nectar of Immortality. Blue Dove Press publishes books by and about sages and saints of all religions as well as other inspiring works. Catalog sent free upon request. Write to: Blue Dove Press Post Office Box 261611 San Diego, CA 92196 Phone: (619) 271-0490 © 1996 by Robert Powell All Rights Reserved FIRST EDITION Photograph on page 62 courtesy of Carl Adlon, taken as Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj stepped out of his bath. Other photos courtesy of Jozef Nauwelaerts and Dingeman Boot. Special thanks to Dr. Lance Nelson, Department of Religious Studies, University of San Diego, California, for help in the preparation of this book, Cover and text design: Brian Moucka, Poppy Graphics, Santa Barbara, California Cover art by Rob Jacobs ISBI -884997-14-7 ‘ary of Congress Cataloging-in-Publication data: Nisargadatta. Maharaj, 1897-1981 The experience of nothingness . Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj's talks on realizing the infinite / edited by Robert Powell P em. Includes bibliographical references. ISBN: 1-884997-14-7 1. Spiritual life--Hinduism. 2. Hinduism-- Doctrines. I. Powell, Robert, 1918- . II. Title. BL 1214.26.N573 1996 294.5°2--de20 96-24322 cIPHis parents, who gave him the name Maruti, had a small farm at the village of Kandalgaon and it was here that he spent his early years. In 1924 he married, later becoming a cig- arette trader in Bombay where he and his wife raised a family, From early childhood he had taken a keen interest in spiritual matters, his talks with holy men sharpening his inquisitive mind and kindling a spiritual fire. At the age of 34 he met his Guru and three years later realized himself, taking the name of Nisargadatta. He continued to live the life of an ordinary Indi- an working-man but his teachings, which are set out in his master-work I Am That and are rooted in the ancient Upan- ishadic tradition, made a significant philosophical break from contemporary thought. Devotees travelled from all over the world to hear Nisargadatta's unique message until his death in 1981. = NISARGADATTA Manaraj was born in Bombay in 1897. chemistry from London University, he pursued a career fist as an industrial chemist and later as a science writer and edi- tor in Britain and the United States. In 1968 and 1969, he published nine chemical engineering monographs in use by academic and indus- trial libraries throughout the world. Robert Powells personal exploration of spirituality began in the 1960's, and his quest for self-discovery led him to study Zen and a number of spiritual masters including J. Krishnamurti and Ramana Maharshi. His own spiritual awakening coincided with his discovery of the teachings of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj. He is also the author of a number of books on what he describes as “human consciousness transformation.” Powell lives a busy life with his wife Gina in La Jolla, California. R= Powell was born in 1918. After obtaining his doctorate inSri NISARGADATTA MAHARAJ 1897 - 1981 Photo by Jozo! Nauwolzets, courtesy of Jack and Diana Massonyl 3 “Waatever is, is an expression of conscious- ness only. If consciousness is not there, the expression of consciousness is not there either. Therefore, nothing is. And this consciousness is an uncalled-for concept; it has appeared spontaneously, SRI NISARGADATTA MAHARAJ]ACKNOWLEDGEMENT I am grateful to Frank Anderson, of Hunt- ington Beach, California, who provided me with the original tapes of discourses for this book.TABLE OF CONTENTS PREFACE 1. Manaray SETS OUT THE BAsIcs OF THE TEACHING 2. AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL NoTHING Is; AT THE WORLDLY LEVEL EVERYTHING IS 3. A TRUE SAGE Is HE WHO HAS TRANSCENDED THE PERSONALITY 4. Ir You WANT THE HaAPpINEss OF SELF, GET RID OF THE BODY-MIND SENSE 5. Don’t BE IDENTIFIED WitH A CorpsE, AND BE Happy! 6. THE EXPERIENCE OF NOTHINGNESS 7. WHEN CONSCIOUSNESS MANIFESTS, Dua.ity APPEARS 8. WHO Knows Tuat “I AM”? 9. CONSCIOUSNESS ITSELF IS THE SOURCE OF ILLUSION 10. END SUFFERING BY STABILIZING IN THE STATE BEFORE WORDS GLOSSARY BIBLIOGRAPHY xi 15 39 55 63 73 93 aD 129 147 161 1657 PREFACE ri Nisargadatta Maharaj hardly needs an introduction any longer to lovers of the highest wisdom. Known as a maverick Hindu sage, Nisargadatta is now generally acknowledged to rank with the greatest masters of advaita teachings, such as Sri Ramana Maharshi of Tiruvannamalai, Sri Atmananda of Trivandrum, and the more recently known disciple of the Maharshi, Poonjaji of Lucknow. In this latest work, the depth and subtlety of the treat- ment of the subject combined with the closely reasoned approach (as marvelously exemplified in the chapter “The Experience of Nothingness”) make these dialogues virtually unsurpassed in the spiritual literature. On a more mundane level, Maharaj addresses two points many have always found intriguing. People have wondered, and some even complained, about his apparently brusque manner with cer- tain visitors by not allowing them to stay with him for any extended length of time. In this volume Maharaj for the first time reveals the rationale for his actions. It occurred to me this might well have a bearing also on the way one reads these discourses. Optimally, small portions of the text should be digested at any one time, in order to let their sig- nificance sink in. Thus, one uses Maharaj more like a cata- lyst in the flowering of one’s own understanding and the consequent development of one’s convictions. In this way, the words acquire an extraordinary vitality and there is a corresponding responsiveness in the listener or reader. The other point is that it is apparent in the discussions that Maharaj rarely agrees with anyone, even if that person xixii - The Experience of Nothingness has made an apparently valid statement or given a correct answer to his questions. Maharaj acknowledges this and explains how and why he uses this particular approach as a subtle pedagogic device. The possibility always exists to come up with a more or less correct answer, on the intel- lectual level, yet be bereft of actual experience or deep conviction. In such cases, to go along with the speaker would only encourage him to believe he has achieved genuine transformation when in fact he is merely repeat- ing mechanically a verbal formula. It is as Maharaj once said: “The realized man knows what others merely hear but do not experience, Intellectually, they may seem con- vinced, but in action they betray their bondage.” And on another occasion he said: “Self-surrender is the surrender of all self-concern. It cannot be done, it happens when you realize your true nature. Verbal self-surrender, even accompanied by feeling, is of little value and breaks down under stress.” ROBERT POWELLEXPERIENCEor NOTHINGNESSEprror'’s Notes: The basic truth of what the great advaita masters teach is essen- tially the same, which is to be expected since there is only one Reali- ty, However, different teachers lay different emphasis on various aspects of this teaching and to this purpose employ slightly different nomenclatures or use these terms in flexible ways as it suits their pur- poses. Thus, I-am-ness and beingness in these conversations are gener- ally used by Maharaj as denoting limited states of understanding which are fundamentally based on a sense of separate identity, result- ing from taking oneself tc be the body. They are wholly conceptual. Often, Maharaj uses both terms interchangeably. At other times, depending upon the emphasis he wishes to convey, he denotes being- ness as a somewhat superior state, which arises upon transcendence of the “I-am-ness” and equates the manifest consciousness. Maharaj also refers to beingness as consciousness or knowingness and according to him it still is the product of the five elements (rooted in materiality). Thus, he states: “This knowledge ‘I am’ or the ‘beingness’ is a cloak of illusion over the Absolute. Therefore, when Brahman is transcended only the Parabrabman is, in which there is not even a trace of the knowledge ‘I am’.” The state’ of “beingness” is clearly an incomplete, provisional state of understanding, as is also evinced from Maharaj’s following words: “The sages and prophets recognized the sense of ‘being’ initially. Then they meditated and abided in it and finally transcended it, resulting in their ultimate realization.” Whereas “I-am-ness,” “beingness” or “knowingness” has a somat- ic basis, which in turn arises from the physical elements, the Absolute lies beyond all “physicality” and can no longer be described. In the Absolute one has no instrument to make any statements. What I am in the absolute sense, it is not possible to convey in any words. In that ultimate awareness, nobody has any consciousness of being present. The presence itself is not there in the Absolute. Maharaj teaches that upon transcendence of the individual con- sciousness into the universal manifest consciousness, the latter rests upon and lies within the Unmanifest or Parabrabman, where the latter 1 The term “state implies a “condition,” a modification, of a more basic realty, which concerns an unalterable and ineffable substrate, Therefore, it would be more accurate to express this modification as a superimposition on the “non-state” of the Parabrahman, somewhat analagous to the seeing of a snake in the rope.denotes “that principle which was unaffected by the dissolution of the universes” and is a non-state. He also declares: “Please apprehend this clearly that You, the Absolute—bereft of any body identity—are complete, perfect and the Unborn.” In his teaching, you—as the Absolute—never have or had any birth. All forms are a result of the five-elemental play. This Parabrabman lies beyond both duality and non-duality, since it is prior to space and time (we can only properly talk of duality or non-duality within the physical-mental sphere, i.e. within conscious- ness.) It is the Absolute or the Ultimate Subject, what one is, for there is no longer anyone or anything—not even the consciousness— to experience it. Finally, it must be noted here that other sages as well as classic Vedanta scriptures are commonly using “I-am-ness" and Beingness (spelled with a capital B) interchangeably with the Parabrabman or Absolute, and the Absolute is then referred to as Consciousness (with a capital C) and consistently denoted by the term “Self” (Sri Ramana Maharshi) and as the “I-Principle” (Sri Atmananda). “Even this consciousness is not everything and it is not going to last for all time. Find out how that consciousness has arisen, the source of the consciousness... What is this body? The body is only an accumulation of food and water. There- fore, you are something separate from either the body or the consciousness.” Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj “Jivatman is the one who identifies with the body-mind as an individual separate from the world. The atman is only beingness, or the consciousness, which is the world. The Ulti- mate principle which knows this beingness cannot be named at all, It cannot be approached or conditioned by any words, That is the Ultimate state.” Sri Nisargadatta MabarajTo THE READER ‘We realize that many Western readers are not familiar with some of the Indian words that appear in this book. While knowledge of these words or other specialized jargon is in no way essential for the under- standing of the teachings, readers are encouraged to consult the Glossary in the back of this book when such terms are not defined in a footnote or in the text. These conversations with visitors of all kinds, which took place in the final year of his life, were exclusively directed at the goal of awakening or self- realization. Nisargadatta Maharaj talked with visitors until the very day of his death of cancer, September 8th, 1981, at the age of 841. MAHARAJ SETS OUT THE BASICS OF THE TEACHING | AHARAJ: The nature of the consciousness has to be understood. This consciousness can | arise only in the physical body, and the physi- cal body is the essence of the five elements.’ It is because of the association with the physical body that there is suffering. Most people who come here will not be able to accept this type of knowledge, because it is on a strictly fundamental level. But some persons who apply themselves and can accept such a point of view, will really understand. They will be totally free from the impact of pain and unhappiness, if they under- stand that the latter can only result from the con- sciousness which has identified itself with the physical body and suffers as an individual. In that case, suffer- ing must inevitably result. But, what is the individual? There is a body created out of the five elements, and in that body dwells the vital breath (prana) and the consciousness; it is a composite unity. All living forms 1 According to the Hindu cosmology, the “five elements"—earth, water, fire, air and ether—are said to be the fundamental building blocks of the entire physical universe.2 + The Experience of Nothingness contain the vital breath and the consciousness. And, although the forms are different, they all contain the same elements. So, I ask again: Where is the question of an individual? Basically, there is none. And this is my basic teaching which has to be grasped, but only very few will understand. Visrror: Would you please repeat this? There was so much disturbance that I could not follow it. M: Certainly, but not in the same words. Now what is it that we are concerned with? We are dealing with the physical form which is made up of, and fed by, the five elements. In that form are operating the life force (the vital breath) and this consciousness—that is, the knowledge “I am” or the sense of being, the sense of existence. The latter is the “sentience,” which is the gift of the consciousness. This is the total that we can perceive: the body, the vital breath and the conscious- ness. All forms are made of the same components, So where is the question of an individual? Throughout all this, the individual as such has never come into being. And for this reason there is no need to identify oneself with anything. Yet one does: the consciousness identi- fies itself with the body, and in this way the “individ- ual” comes into being. So long as this is a fact, that individual is bound to suffer. And what I am...I am neither the body, which is merely the five elements, nor the life force (the breath) nor the consciousness which comes into the body. I must identify myself with the consciousness as long as the body is there, because it forms one unity with it. But in actuality, 1 am none of these three things. While the body exists, I am the consciousness, which merely witnesses what- ever is going on. When the body dies, the life forceMabaraj Sets Out the Basics of the Teaching + 3 leaves and mingles with the air, and the consciousness mingles with the universal consciousness. 1 am essen- tially nothing (identifiable) in this consciousness, being only its witness. And, what I am in the absolute sense, it is not possible to convey in any words. In that ultimate Awareness, nobody has any conscious- ness of being present. The presence itself is not there in the Absolute. No person not interested in the subject would want to come here. So one can only assume that those who do attend are vitally interested in the subject and have done their homework...thus, the people who come here are all jnanis. But, how many amongst us know the nature and the basis of this consciousness that I am, which exists so long as the body is there. Each of us must say “I am” and realize it. There is no “you,” and there is no “me,” as individual entities. When there is an imbalance in the body substance, illness comes about. But when that material is in per- fect balance, there is no illness. Now how is that? The question was: Does the universal conscious- ness depend on the five elements for its existence? The answer to this question is that the universal con- sciousness and the total manifestation appear simul- taneously. The manifestation happens because consciousness is there. Until the “I am” thought was there, there was no manifestation; both came about simultaneously. But because we identify ourselves with the body in which the individual consciousness manifests itself—and the consciousness in order to manifest itself has to have a form—the “individual” is born and that indi Earlier I had explained the question of the univer- sal consciousness. The universal consciousness is something like a name given to a city. Now there is ual suffers.4 + The Experience of Nothingness Bombay, for example. What do you mean by “Bom- bay”? Can you produce Bombay? No! The totality of a particular thing is designated...so the universal con- sciousness is merely a name given to that which is formless. I use the word “city,” not particularly Bombay. I mean any city or place. If I say Bombay, it means that I refer to a limited area. V: A very important point here. To my mind, a city or a nation comprises only the individuals who make it up. M: A name may have been given by individuals; but that which has been created, has man created it? Out of five elements, man is born. But has man created the five elements? The five elements have been creat- ed out of that consciousness, which is in the individual body. Vv: The universal consciousness and this conscious- ness within me, are they the same? M: The light which is perceived by your eyes and the light which is generally seen, as reflected in various manifestations, are they different? To repeat: The whole problem lies in identification with the individual body and consequently with the individual. Therefore, the individual is ever afraid of death—death of the individual. Are there any questions on this subject? You are this consciousness. And out of this con- sciousness is born the entire universe. We consider ourselves as individuals; and that which is unlimited we have limited to an insignificant thing. The infiniteMaharaj Sets Out the Basics of the Teaching - 5 is narrowed down to a single body. That is our whole problem. Now there is also this question: If it is the same universal consciousness that appears in millions of human beings, why do they act in such contrary man- ners, creating all kinds of chaos? If one woman has ten children, they are all born from the same parents, but do they not act in remarkably contrary ways? Why is that? Because, although constituted from the same basic five elements, the composition of each individ- ual, resulting from different proportions—permuta- tions and combinations—of these elements, is quite different. Thus, each person acts in a different way. Or, to use a different analogy, the metal may be the same but the purposes for which that metal has been converted into different instruments are widely differ- ent—each instrument may be used for a particular purpose. So the ingredients are the five elements, but the eventual object created from different combina- tions of those ingredients is bound to act uniquely according to its composition. V: Whose purpose is it, Maharaj? M: The purpose is the addition of all these millions of combinations. Until I know...that is why I asked earli- er when do we first know the nature and basis of this composition, which we identify as ourselves...Unless I first thoroughly know its nature, how can I know the purpose and basis of the entire universe? INTERPRETER: Maharaj is asking you, have you real- ized the nature of the consciousness? Now he gives an example, as is his wont, of coun- try, homely nature. In the country they make a pan-6 + The Experience of Nothingness cake. There is a fire, they put a pan on it, and then the dough is poured on it. Finally, the pancake comes into being and is removed. When the next one is put into the pan, when it is formed, it will general- ly appear like the previous one, but the number of dents and holes in the two will not be exactly the same. You may have dozens of these pancakes, but each one is bound to be different. That is the nature of creation itself, to have variety, So he says, under- stand the nature and basis of that which is created as the manifestation, and that is the consciousness. Unless you understand this consciousness, no other way of realizing Paramatman exists. It cannot be attained other than by understanding. M: The mystery of the hypnotic power of this maya is that one identifies oneself with the body. And the mechanism of this kind of identification does not differ in any way from identification of a chunk of stone, or something created out of stone, as God, and the wholehearted worshipping of it. So far as that goes, it is all right, and this kind of worship will have its normal effects in consciousness. But unless the nature of the consciousness is understood, one will not be able to understand one’s true identity. Then, having understood the nature of the con- sciousness, you will also understand that you are not the consciousness. Anything that you have seen and understood, you cannot be; you, as a subject, can only understand something which is an object, and you are bound to accept it as such, If you discuss things with me, based on the tradi- tional literature and the traditional knowledge...there will be so many pundits who are so knowledgeable, they will eat me alive. And yet, where the basic knowl-Mabaraj Sets Out the Basics of the Teaching - 7 edge is concerned, which I deal with, why do these people remain speechless? Because it is something totally different from anything that can be under- stood, Whatever is understood, whatever is seen, is not true. Any questions? V: There is a Hymn to Creation; it is well known to people who have read the translations. At the end of that, the poem goes something like this (I can only vaguely reproduce it): He, the Ultimate Knower, the jnani...the question now is who said this whole thing, who caused him? It is about the jnani’s origin, how did that happen? And in the last line, the poem reads: He, the jnani, he knows it. Or perhaps, he knows not. In other words, you are left in doubt at the end whether he really knows the Ultimate. Is that true? M: Would you repeat it, please. V: Well, it is difficult to do so without repeating the actual text. In other words, it is an ultimate question about so to speak the origin of the jnani. He says it in the last line... M: But how does it start, this Hymn to Creation? V: It is a very well known Hymn. What about the ori- gin of the jnani himself? You can imagine the jnani asking himself: How did I come to be here? The answer he gives is: He knows. Or perhaps, he does not know it either. M: He cannot be called a jnani, since the very ques- tion is not answered, the problem is still incomplete,8 - The Experience of Nothingness unsolved. The mystery remains. The sick man is still a sick man. Whatever he says is an echo of illness. And the one who wrote it, is still ill. V: [Asks a question in Marathi which is not translated. ] M: Consciousness itself is the screen. This is the realm of consciousness and all creations are in the consciousness. I: The question was: Could we conceive of conscious- ness as a screen on which the entire creation is like a moving picture? So Maharaj said initially, there is no screen, there is nothing. Whatever is, is wide open. Then, Mr. P. explained that what the lady probably intended to convey is that anything that can happen— all thoughts, all action—are only appearances in that consciousness. So Maharaj said: Undoubtedly. The session is nearly over. Are there any questions? Maharaj wants questions; he thrives on them. V: A difficulty in our understanding is that conscious- ness itself is the object of the Knower, right? This con- sciousness can eventually be understood by the jnani. Unfortunately, the opposite of consciousness is unconsciousness. So in the language, so to speak, there is an inbuilt tendency to make this division— consciousness and unconsciousness. Consciousness is being understood; and then what remains, according to the language, is unconsciousness. I: That he explained yesterday morning... When the consciousness is not there, then obvi- ously one is unconscious. So what are you getting at?Mabaraj Sets Out the Basics of the Teaching + 9 Consciousness is not true. You say that to the ordinary person, and then that seems an inferior state to him. SECOND VisrToR: It does not seem inferior to me. M: It is out of unconsciousness that consciousness is born; unconsciousness is the source. And that is our experience also. This knowledge “I am,” this con- sciousness, has come out of the prior state when there was no consciousness. The consciousness is a state which is now with us and because of which we suffer; and before this consciousness came, a state prevailed when we were not conscious and which was a happy state. The session is over, but if there are any ques- tions...? Then go ahead! [There are no further questions] 4 M: [in response to a question about effort to understand] There is no question of any efforts being made by any- one. That which is is to be understood, is self-efful- gent. It does not need anybody's help to exist, and is merely to be understood. And when it is understood, it will also be clear that I am the dawn, I am the after- noon, I am the evening, I am the night. I am the good, I am the bad. And what is to be understood is that if consciousness is not there, the world is not there. And I am not the consciousness; I am apart from it. Although consciousness is so very important—for if there were no consciousness there would be no world,10 - The Experience of Nothingness there would be nothing—yet I am not that. V: But even coming to this insight requires effort. Why does Maharaj say there is no effort to be made? M: Now that you know that you are, you are sitting here, you know that you exist, you have that sen- tience. The knowledge that you are alive, that you exist, do you understand it through any effort? V: No. M: Your question is wholly correct from the point of view of this world; that is, unless you work there is no fruit, you can’t eat. So from the worldly point of view, your question is correct. But I don’t belong to this world! And in the world, this “I-am-ness” is just there, without any efforts on anyone's part. V: Maharaj, I am a teacher by profession. In theory, I accept this fully and even see the logic of it. The prob- lem is that knowing this theoretically is one thing, but actually being it and feeling it is quite another. And that is where the trouble lies, and hence the need for effort. M: Yes, tremendous effort: being very, very still and not doing anything! That is effort—the effort which you made when you were in your mother's womb for eight months and in which state neither your parents nor you as such did anything. No effort was made. Whatever grew, grew by itself. V: I got my answer! M: From the drop of semen at conception to the grow-Mabaraj Sets Out the Basics of the Teaching - 11 ing into a baby, and his further development, what is it that made possible this growth? That very same princi- ple which from the absence of knowledge has led to the presence of knowledge, this “I-am-ness’—that is what one is and what is to be understood. V: A spontaneous occurrence without effort. M: That spontaneous happening, that consciousness which has come upon unconsciousness. V: But how can one know that conception has occurred? SECOND Visitor: How otherwise would you know the child is born? V: Unless there is conception, he will not grow. And in the person where there is no conception, there will be no growth. Hence, an effort would also have to be made for there to be conception; then only the growth will take place. I: Maharaj is telling you exclusively about the growth part. There are no efforts. It is spontaneously happen- ing, the growth. M: Even there, even for the conception, what effort could the parents make? And even if the parents make that effort, could they have guaranteed that concep- tion is to take place? The conception occurs by itself, of its own sweet will—not necessarily because of any efforts. In any case, the efforts which the parents made were not really efforts; they were enjoying them- selves. That is not an effort as such.12 - The Experience of Nothingness [To a particular visitor] Are you coming in the evening? V: These are my sisters. They are going back with me this afternoon. M: The knowledge “you are"—if you want to remem- ber this visit—remember this also, the memory that you are is under the shade [that is, the protecting umbrella] of the guru or God. Worshipping God and guru means worshipping the knowledge “you are” only. So hold on to that principle, the knowledge “I am,” the knowledge that you exist, and worship it in the name of your guru or God.2. AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL NOTHING Is; AT THE WORLDLY LEVEL EVERYTHING IS (i ISITOR: Forgive me for going back to what Maharaj said yesterday, because I forgot. I asked him about the presence of the guru, and he said there is something saying “guru-guru-guru.” Manaray: Oh yes, guru means that “I-am-ness” itself, which always reminds you “I am,” “I am,” “I am’— that is guru-guru-guru, like the sound of a motorcar starting. It is a continuous reminder that you are. For this trifling talk, why are you using this equip- ment? [referring to the tape recorder] V: Because the trifling talk takes us back all the time to that which is not trifling. M: Just so. V: Can J ask a question? M: Of course. 1516 - The Experience of Nothingness Vv: This morning Maharaj said this mystery of the knower and the known should be followed up. The known is not really known by a knower. The known is known because its perceptions, thoughts, feelings, are movements in consciousness, and they are known because of their appearance in the light of conscious- | ness. Is that correct? M: It is just like that. A jnani is the most stupid...(He is not concerned with knowing in the conventional sense.) When this waking state, this consciousness, appears, then only everything appears. Prior to that, where is the question of knowledge, ignorance, or jnana? ‘V: But deep sleep, is that really a state? M: Yes, the integral combination of waking state, deep sleep and the dream state comprises “I am.” V: But in deep sleep, there is no time. M: Time is there, only the witnessing of time is not there. ‘V: How can there be time if there is no witnessing? M: Your watch did the witnessing job and told you that you were asleep for eight hours. V: So witnessing comes afterwards? M: Agreed! V: In the deep sleep itself, there is no time.At the Highest Level Nothing Is - 17 M: The one that tells you later, what is he like before telling you? Vv: Formless. M: When it is formless, when the form is not avail- able, the consciousness “I am” is not there either. V: So in deep sleep, there is no “I am.” M: No. But the witnessing of deep sleep does hap- pen. The principle that witnesses the deep sleep does not sleep. V: I don't understand that something can be timeless and yet exist—the deep sleep. M: You go into a very deep samadhi, then you will real- ize that. If you want to meet a state of nothingness, you yourself must also go into a state of nothingness. V: That is what I call “omnipresence,” or Presence. M: “I-am-ness” is Presence. That “I-am-ness” pres- ence should not be there. The non-“I-am-ness” only can meet that nothingness. V: Still there is...I have no word for it. Presence. There is no thought, no feeling. But there is... M: No thought, no feeling. V: I used to go into samadhis which were just like deep sleep. In three hours or so, I noticed that many things had happened (in my immediate environment).18 + The Experience of Nothingness But my guru was very unhappy with that. He said, you must not do that. M: Samadbi and the experiencer of samadbi, did you get acquainted with both aspects—samadhi and the one who enjoyed samadhi? V: Now, so many years later, I say they are identical. M: O.K., the experiencer and the experience are one and the same. V: But it cannot be remembered. M: It is not to be memorized; it cannot be grasped by memory. The manifest dynamic, fluid Brahman cannot be caught in any words. Vv: Can you say that everything, even ignorance and pain, is a pointer to the Ultimate? M: When you are completely depersonified, you are no more an individual, then whatever is, is an embell- ishment or a decoration or a puja to the Parabrahman. But so long as you are wrapped up egoistically through some words, no puja can happen. V: Knowledge with a capital K, the ultimate knowl- edge... M: The Absolute? V: Yes, knowingness, I don’t know how to call it... ™M: But that is no knowingness...In the Absolute,At the Highest Level Nothing Is + 19 there is no knowingness. Knowingness is only in the past. V: Here we face the difficulty of words. M: You better not call it knowledge. V: Pure consciousness. M: In that state, there is no knowingness. V: But no unconsciousness either. It is not possible. M: It is unconscious. V: From the point of view of the mind. M: Yes, because you are...the indication is given with reference to consciousness. That is why you call it “no consciousness.” V: Yes. But in reality, from its own point of view... M: You are talking of the Absolute. There is no “I- am-ness.” V: I don’t know how to call it... M: Call it Absolute. The moment you say “knowl- edge,” the quality comes in. V: I don't mean that. M: You are talking of the nirguna state?20 + The Experience of Nothingness V: I don’t know this Sanskrit term. ™M: Guna means “I-am-ness”; and nirguna means “No- I-am-ness.” V: “I-am” disappears in the Absolute. M: Yes, a non-knowing state. V: A non-knowing state...that knows! [laughter] ™M: Knowingness appears on the non-knowing state. V: Yes, the relative beingness is known, is recorded in the Absolute. M: Beingness comes on the background of the Absolute. So? V: So it is known...in the Absolute. Beingness is known as an object. M: If knowingness is not known, who would call it “knowingness”? V: There is nobody to call it anything. M: That is the reply! V: So, have I understood it right this morning: Maharaj advises us to find out who is the witness in deep sleep? M: All these wordy statements are just to please somebody. Actually, there is no substance in all this.At the Highest Level Nothing Is + 21 V: So, no advice? M: The manifest, dynamic nature, don’t stamp it with words! Just be. Don't conceptualize. Now everybody is weighed down by words. Suppose a child is there, and the child is dead. Whatever that principle, that dynamic principle has left the body. No, you cannot say what that dynamic principle is. It has no name now. Because of this association with the body, you have tried to capture it with words. V: So words are the only problem. M: Yes. The whole problem is with the words. Since that principle which has quit the body is now freed from the body, you cannot capture it through words. The dynamic beingness principle, because of its asso- ciation with the body, embracing a certain form and certain words and concepts, is suffering. Without that—without form, and without words—how can it suffer? V: All this stops immediately when you see it as a puja to the Ultimate. M: That means all this wordy business stops. You may understand it that way. Once you understand that you are not the body nor that you are wrapped up in name and form, and that you are this manifest Brab- man only, you are free. V: Even the idea “I am not free” is part of the puja. M: What do you mean by “puja”? Puja is a process or an aid to propitiate somebody.22 - The Experience of Nothingness V: Well, O.K. Would you call it darishma? M: Call it whatever you like. It is an expression of it. V: It is consciousness playing with its own. M: Yes. [To a newly arrived visitor] If you are going to sit here, you must ask questions. If you are not going to ask questions, take the rearmost seat. V: If you come here, you must stick out your neck. Otherwise, it is no use (being here). M: If you enter the arena, you must fight with ques- tions. SECOND VisrroR: Of course, of course. M: [pointing to a third visitor] For years he has been trying to assimilate knowledge, but he has not got an iota of knowledge. What knowledge did you get? V: The ignorant man has not got any knowledge and. the sage has not got knowledge. Then what is the dif- ference? M: The ignorant one has to acquire knowledge, because knowledge is valid for the ignorant. For the jnani, there is no sense of knowledge because he dis- misses knowledge as unreal. Therefore, he does not entertain knowledge. That is why he has no knowl- edge.At the Highest Level Nothing Is - 23 V: In reality nobody can have knowledge, nobody can have anything. M: In reality nobody can avoid knowledge. Nobody means “who”? V: This is the “proprietor.” M: “Nobody” means the one who could refer to “whom"? V: This is the proprietor whom you cannot know. Even the proprietor goes at once...So I could not be the owner of knowledge for two reasons. First, you cannot own any thought...Secondly, the proprietor does not live longer than one or two seconds. He also is a thought. M: This is all right on the worldly level, but, truthful- ly, nothing is. At the highest level, in reality, nothing is. At the worldly level, everything is. V: Does this mean everything is a form of conscious- ness? M: Whatever is, is an expression of consciousness only. If consciousness is not there, the expression of consciousness is not there either. Therefore, nothing is. And this consciousness is an uncalled-for concept; it has appeared spontaneously. V: So once one has heard the truth, there really is only one obstacle, to think that can one reach it when one actually can’t.24 + The Experience of Nothingness M: After one has got the truth, there is only one obstacle... V: It appears that you have to reach it to attain it. M: When you have heard the truth, it still needs to be emulated in order to be reached. V: Your attempt to understand it, that is the one obstacle. “How?” M: Because the truth has no form, no name. So how can it be understood? V: But that is something one continues to try for a long period. M: In the process of trying to understand, you get purified and the process subsides. So long as the food body essence is available, this consciousness endures. When the consciousness quits the body, that knowing- ness is no longer there. There remains only the univer- sal consciousness without the knowingness, the non-knowingness state or anything else. Then in that state there is no question of manifest or unmanifest. That comes only with the presence of consciousness. So long as the association with the body essence is there, this guna, this state of “I-am- ness” or beingness, is available. But once this food essence is gone, that “I-am-ness” state is also gone. This guna, this consciousness, depends entirely on the food body essence. Once the latter is exhausted or no longer available, this consciousness or this guna is also not there. To repeat, the life force, the touch of “I-am- ness” or this guna, is not there in the absence of theAt the Highest Level Nothing Is + 25 food body essence, whether it concerns an ant or an elephant. All the stories of reincarnation, rebirth, are mere stories meant for the ignorant masses. V: The past is always projected from this moment? M: Whatever has happened, that is “the past.” V: But we can never touch the past; we are only now. So we cannot touch anything which is not now. So, maybe, there is no such thing as the past. M: What have you to say...? V: So if there is no past, there is no bondage. M: But who says that it cannot be touched, the past? V: Isay so. M: But who is the one who said “I”? This means that by the word “I,” that chetana, that manifest, dynamic principle caught itself in that word “I.” If that dynam- ic, manifest principle does not get caught up in the concept, then it has no birth and no death. V: Is it possible, when you look for what you are, that you identify yourself not with consciousness, but that you misapprehend it? Could it be that when you look for yourself, you take this consciousness Maharaj is talking about for that which you are, that you get it mixed up? SECOND Visitor: You mistake consciousness for the Ultimate.26 - The Experience of Nothingness M: Yes, that consciousness is the prerequisite for anything. Without the consciousness, you cannot even do that search, you cannot look inward. Please proceed with the question. V: That is all. But when you make this mistake, when you identify yourself with consciousness, is it still some kind of feeling or experience? M: You are consciousness. Where is the question of your merging with the consciousness? Your conscious- ness means “you are.” “You-are-ness” and conscious- ness are not separate. The “you are” state itself is the consciousness. Can you follow me? You know you are, without the words you are. That itself is the con- sciousness. V: Can this consciousness exist without forms? M: This consciousness cannot know itself in the absence of a form, of food body essence. Body is a form. For example, you are detecting some bad smell. There must be something from which the bad smell emanates. So something must be present. Likewise, to have this touch of “I-am-ness,” something must be there. And what is that something? Body, food essence. This body must be there, which is food essence. Storage of food essence is the body. [After a long pause] I had high expectations in you, that you would initiate some interesting talks. If nobody talks, I will close the session and send people home. Vv: I have done some homework for questions. I had to jot them down, because when I sit here all my ques-At the Highest Level Nothing Is - 27 tions vanish, When I go home, the questions come back. You said one must always remember “I am.” Mz: Is it necessary that you should remember that you are? Spontaneously you know and remember that you are. That is why you have come here, have you not? Because you are. Stay put there. Currently, you are not yet that knowledgeable to be able to realize the happiness that goes with that state. You have yet to evolve. V: I don't get it. M: You are not mature enough yet. And really...when you finally understand, you will realize that all this, whatever you have understood, is not the truth. V: That is what I realize in my mind. M: What can the mind understand? Can the mind have any wisdom? Whatever passing show it observes, that is the mind. Whatever is read, whatever is heard, that again flows out—that is the mind. Whatever earli- er impressions entered, when they flow out, the flow- ing out is the mind. V: In a way, I don't want to ask questions, because if I put a clever question and I get a clever answer in return, I become more and more clever and it is no use, M: You ask a clever question and you get a clever reply. Is that what you mean?28 + The Experience of Nothingness V: Yes. This makes me even more clever, and then I start...It is no use. Therefore, I don’t want to ask questions. M: So you don’t want to become clever? The state you want is non-cleverness. Is it something like that? V: I may become very clever, but it does not help. It does not make me happy. M: It is of no use. But who observes it? Who is saying this? Who has made all the observations? V: The witness? M: I would like to know who is that witness and wit- ness of what? V: Well, I can say I am the witness...I am not sure. M: And witness what? V: Intelligence, the world, everything, all that is man- ifested. M: How long are you going to be at that post of wit- nessing? How long are you in a witnessing position? It is the knowingness that is the trouble, the source of all troubles. In the absence of knowingness, of that consciousness, where is the question of misery, pain or pleasure? V: Nowhere. M: Now you know it, you can go home; you've got it.At the Highest Level Nothing Is - 29 V: But I don’t feel it, I don't experience it like that. I can explain everything most cleverly, but it still does not work, even for myself. M: So long as beingness, “I-am-ness” is there, (why worry about) utility or no utility. In the absence of consciousness, there is no question of utility or no utility. Why utility? M: Usefulness or no usefulness. V: Does it mean losing the consciousness? M: Did you ever catch hold of consciousness, and made it your own, your property? V: No. M: Then keep quiet. It (consciousness) has come spontaneously, How is it that everyone has suddenly gone into silence? V: Is it not what he wants? [laughter] SECOND Visrror: Can we get some advice for not getting things mixed up? Sometimes I take this as “I am,” other times I take that as “I am.” Can Maharaj give some advice to ensure we don't mistakenly hold something for “I am"? M: Don't say I am this, I am that. Just hold on to your- self, you are. Just be. Just be “you are.” Do you follow?30 + The Experience of Nothingness V: Yes, but sometimes I imagine that I experience “I am." Sometimes, not always. M: Every moment you are experiencing “I am.” Are you not experiencing yourself right now? You are? V: As a body, yes. M: You know you are. Aren't you? Vv: Yes, as a body, as a mind, I am. M: Prior to body, and prior to mind, are you not there? V: I don’t know. M: Are you or are you not? Who recognizes the mind? You recognize the mind. So you are... V: Separated. M: Recognizing the mind, you are apart from the mind, aren't you? V: Yes. M: You recognize the body. So you are apart from the body. You exist prior to body, separate from the body and separate from the mind, do you not? Do you understand? V: Lunderstand.32 - The Experience of Nothingness V: Is that the same as when you meditate and you keep repeating it [the mantra] in your head? M: Suppose you meditate, meditate on the atman or something, be there! Recede! Whatever you meditate on, you are not that! Whatever you observe, you are not that. So in this way, reject everything whatever you observe, and finally settle down where no more observation is. + I could meditate only very little through fear aris- ing... M: You are not the fear! You observed the fear, did you not? You acknowledge it because you accept it. Recede from that. You are not that. Get back! V: But the more I get back, the more fear comes. M: But still you have to get back. You are the rear- most background principle. V: It is hard to be convinced of that when you are meditating and the fear comes; it is hard to remember. M: Let the fear come! It does not matter if you are overwhelmed by fear and you are dead—whatever that is. Caught in the fear, let it be dead. But you are still in the background, let it [the fear] appear to you. V: Then when it feels to me that I am dying, is that no problem? M: Then let yourself die. That which is caught by the fear will die, but you won't die. You will be really immortalAt the Highest Level Nothing Is - 33 V: I know, I have experienced it many times. I: You survived, didn’t you? So then? V: The trouble is endless; the fear and the trouble are endless. M: Everything will go but you will not go, you will not die. V: J will try again. M: What are you going to do now? V: Meditate. M: When you say you are going into meditation, on what do you meditate? V: I will sit and just watch what comes up, and then I keep telling myself: “That's something, that's some- thing...” M: That is all, nothing else. V: And I will come here everyday, of course. M: For four, five days! V: What do you mean, four or five days? M: You can come here four or five days. V: Not longer?34 + The Experience of Nothingness M: There is no accommodation for newcomers. By all means, in order to thoroughly understand you can come. But then you should go. V: Understanding itself is not enough for me. M: Then what else you want? V: Become more realized...[giggling] M: Realized? Whose realization? Somebody else's or yours? Your self-realization, would it be like this...[makes gesture] V: What do you mean by “like this”? I have not understood the question. Me ‘Listen to. my talks thoroughly: for four or five days, and then go and imbibe them. V: Lam fully aware of the question I am going to put, but it cannot be grasped by the mind or the buddhi [intellect]. Somebody is realizing...the unmanifest...but there is nothing to realize...it is there for ever. Time and space are not binding upon it. Correct? M: Have you realized that? Is it your experience? V: No. M: Then don't ask me about somebody else. This “you-are-ness” does not occur to you. You are. Is it time-bound or is it beyond time? You now know that you were not. This “I-am-ness” was not; it has comeAt the Highest Level Nothing Is + 35 afterwards. “I-am-ness” has come at a certain time. You know you are. Prior to that, this “you-are-ness” was not. So how can you say this “you-are-ness” is beyond time? It is time-bound. It has appeared; there- fore, it must disappear. V: [Long and unintelligible statement about living the “unmanifest state.”] M: All this talk is merely verbal acrobatics. I want to know: What is this “you are” medicine? Why are you? What are you? Due to what are you? In the absence of that medicine “you are,” what are you? Before under- standing this “you are” medicine and dismissing it, you are talking about a state without “you are” medi- cine. Understand what it is! My state is: I am, without parents. I am the Unborn. Similarly, I understand you as such only. You are also the Unborn, without parents. I have been telling you again and again: that you exist is due to that “you are” medicine. It has a certain period of time. Again and again I have been telling you that, and still you are putting the same basic question. Someone asked me a queer question: I am respon- sible for the birth of fifty children. Due to what are they born? That was his question. Suppose your father asked such a silly question of somebody else? All this talking about the manifest and unmanifest is mere talk for the sake of entertainment. First find out: What is this medicine, “you are”? Due to what? When you recognize and transcend that, you are a Mahatma, and people will come and talk to you. Have you understood this principle “I am"? When spiritually experienced people come here, they enter into a dialogue just for entertainment. In36 + The Experience of Nothingness the true state nothing is, All this spiritual talk is spiri- tual jargon. You can talk in the world to the ignorant masses; you can convey any number of concepts to them. Let me give you an example: In certain parts of our country, when a person is dead, his ornaments are given to a barber, because from the barber they will go to the dead person. That is the concept. And such concepts are all for the ignorant people. But you can't very well tell such stories here, when discussing pro- found spiritual matters. Ultimately, what are these spiritual talks? They are meant for so long as igno- rance prevails. To remove the ignorance, so-called knowledge is necessary. The knowledge removes the ignorance and then itself also goes; both knowledge and ignorance are thrown overboard. What remains is the Absolute. Take for example the questions of rebirth and rein- carnation. In this manifest play of the five elements, there is no entity as such, no individual or personality. Out of the five-elemental play, when the quintessence of that play in the form of the food essence appeared in a certain form, the moment is there, that is the nor- mal ignorant personality. So long as that food essence body is available with that vital breath, the life force is there. That is the birth. When the body is not available, we call it death. Then again a rebirth! Rebirth of what? Of the five-ele- mental play! There is no birth of a certain personality, of this or that fellow. The question does not even arise. V: When the body dies, it means there is no pain after death of the body. M: What do you mean by death of the body? Does the body die? Can this die [again referring to his ciga- rette lighter]?At the Highest Level Nothing Is - 37 V: But that is not a living thing! M: If you make a flame, it is full of life and fire. When the vital breath quits the body, this quality of “I-am-ness” also disappears. That is where the air becomes manifest, it merges with the universal air, This “I-am-ness,” the consciousness, also merges with the universal consciousness. In that state, there is no knowingness and the body becomes one with the five elements. Where is the death? When the flame is extinguished, would you call it death? In other words, when this is completely consumed, is it not death? You may call it death also.3. A TRUE SAGE Is HE WHO HAS TRANSCENDED THE PERSONALITY @siror: There are many people who purport to speak about truth, but only a few can be 3 truly convincing. Why is that? MAHARAJ: Why do you ask me? How can I tell you? Somebody did not get a child, and you are asking me: “Why did I not get a child?” Such questions have no place or relevance here. This philosophy has already been explained to you. Why do you ask such ques- tions? Ask only about your own self. To talk on this matter will be perfectly all right, but I have no energy to talk about random matters. Talk only about the self and I will come straight to the point and explain mat- ters to you. But no other topics. Did you get knowledge from me or somebody else? V: I think mostly from my own self. M: If that is the case and you are getting knowledge through your own self, you should not have been com- ing here in the first place. 3940 « The Experience of Nothingness V: I did not mean to say all knowledge or the ulti- mate knowledge. INTERPRETER: Maharaj wants to know whatever you are getting here. What other masters have expounded knowledge to you? SECOND Visitor: He wants to know what your sources are, what you have read, or from whom you have heard anything else. V: I started off with drugs, then I listened to Wolter Keers', and ended up listening to Maharaj. M: Since you said that your knowledge has sprouted in your own self, then don’t come back tomorrow. V: Yes, but that was only knowledge of changes, not knowledge about the “I am” or the changeless. M: If you really did get the knowledge through you, why should I break my head over you? I: Don't ask any irrelevant questions, for Maharaj tires easily. Just because he is available to us does not mean we should fling any question at him. M: I have to suffer for all my talks, physically. V: Most of us come from Europe, where we don’t have this guru-disciple tradition, and so we don't know how to behave. 1 Awell-known Dutch author and lecturer on advaita vedanta and the translator of I Am That into Dutch, He was a frequent questioner during the dialogues recorded in this present volume.A True Sage Has Transcended the Personality - 41 M: Here, traditionally the guru is the highest God— the God of the gods. 4 ™M: One who has understood this, that the conscious- ness which has been restricted to the body is in reality the limitless, universal consciousness, if he has accept- ed this with conviction, what more does he need? Whatever I say is from the point of view that I am without body-mind, and if you want to accept whatev- er I say from the point of view that you are body- mind, and expect to get something from it as a similar object, how can it be of use? I repeat: Whatever I say is from the conviction that I am without the body, that I am “no-body.” There- fore, if someone wants to understand that, but remains himself identified with the body, how can he ever hope to grasp what I am trying to convey? ‘Any questions? Put them, but understand that we are speaking and asking on the basis that we do not have a body. There is a body and the body is suffering. But I know that I am not the body; I am the universal consciousness. 1 will not talk about what is being generally talked about elsewhere on the mistaken notion that they are discussing “spiritual knowledge.” I will only speak about one's own self. I will not fool people because I want them to come here and they come to me as guru. What is to be understood is that “I,” the self, com- prises all things; this unity is to be understood thor- oughly. Can there be anything else but one? There have been any number of avatars; they have42 . The Experience of Nothingness gone but their bodies have merged into the five ele- ments. Has anything changed? The self continues to be what it was for millions of years. Understand this as the pure mind, and anything else is tomfoolery. Consciousness within the body gets itself entangled in the various concepts which it has been given and which it has acquired and now considers as part of itself. In what I am saying now I give a picture of what you think yourselves to be. The jnani knows that this is totally untrue, and he knows the truth, V: Thought can never understand this. It takes a while before thoughts are completely exhausted and stop trying to understand. The understanding sinks in the moment the seeker disappears. M: Only when one is convinced about this, totally; there is nothing further that anyone can tell you and nothing further to be understood. Where is even the question of conviction? The body is going to disappear and mingle with the five ele- ments, the breath will mingle with the air, and the consciousness with the universal consciousness; it is as simple as that. Be without the body first, and then whatever words emerge will be knowledge itself. They will not be com- ing from a particular apparatus; the words will be knowledge itself. The body is of the nature of food, and if there is an illness it is an illness on the body because there has been an imbalance in what consti- tutes the body, How am I concerned? This life force, the breath, and consciousness, they are like the sun and sunlight; there is so much unity in that, they are really one. So when one disappears, theA True Sage Has Transcended the Personality - 43 other also goes. To start with, if you cannot consider yourself as consciousness, at least consider yourself the life force, because the two are one but in any case not the body. The life force and the consciousness are always free, but because they have associated them- selves with the body the bondage has come about. Once you decide that you are not the body and this conviction grows, your body will be all the healthier for it. V: Is that the carrot to make the donkey run? M: That you will know best yourself. This consciousness that I am, I am the original, I am the landlord not the tenant. Take any concept that you like, but don’t look to me for giving you any fur- ther concepts. You may adopt any concept that will make you happy, but remember it is still only a con- cept. Suppose you are sitting quietly. Suddenly one thought appears, and we are very, very unhappy. Then some other thought comes and the original thought and the unhappiness both disappear. So long as one depends on the mind, the mind will always make us unhappy. What is suffering really? Suffering is only some- thing which has been engendered by a thought or a word—the mind. If that does not arise, where is the question of unhappiness? Whatever knowledge I give is always free and open, but the one who receives it, if he does not keep him- self open to receptivity, what can I do? On this point, are there any questions? Your speech—that breath of words, that breath of thought, that breath of mind—is it with the body or is44 « The Experience of Nothingness it without the body? The speech is without the body, the mind is without the body, the life force is without the body, and whatever happens is through the effect of the life force. The life force signifies movement, consciousness is movement. Only when I interpret what is in the mind, do I become happy or unhappy. So long as the mind does not work and there is no interpretation, there is no question of being happy or unhappy. Whatever you consider as happiness or unhappiness, sin or merit, heaven or hell, all those depend entirely on the mean- ing of the words; and that is the word, that is the thought, and that is the mind. I repeat: One who has understood this, I will not have him here, but those who think they have under- stood and are still in the process of digesting it and come here with great zeal and sincerity, to them I will tell them in brief words what the position is and then send them out too. Unless there is consciousness, how can there be concepts of ether and atmosphere, the sky and space? The consciousness is always the prime factor. And the life force and this consciousness within the body are bound to disappear. The manner in which the subject is being discussed here, is it at all similar to that in which your guru was expounding the subject? V: Of course, that depends very much on who was there. Sometimes, the approach was more like this, other times more like that. M: Why do I talk in such a fashion? This could be misunderstood, I speak the way I like because I know that I am no body and no thing. Therefore, I comeA True Sage Has Transcended the Personality - 45 and feel obliged to speak. I am and J am not, and I am neither! Neither the presence nor the absence, that is why I say whatever comes up. Anyone who is conscious of his presence, will not talk in such open fashion. I apperceived what is and I also apperceived what is not; and when both what is and what is not have disappeared then what remains is “I.” I am certainly not presence and not even the presence of the absence. All knowledge anyone, however great, can have is that knowledge which one has at that split second when he is not asleep and not even awake. He cannot say what sleep was, for in sleep he is not consciously present. All he can say is something when he is awake, when the consciousness is there. Take the case of a jnani; he does have jnana. But is he able to say from where his knowledge has arisen? Knowledge has arisen from a point where there was no knowledge. How did it arise? What is its nature? Those who have come here and have had knowl- edge, how will they be able to convey it to others? What really happens in the world is: somebody gathers a lot of material—somebody’s judgment and somebody else’s judgment...a number of judgments are collected—and the whole combination he consid- ers the capital of his knowledge. And it is only that which he can distribute. They merely exchange views: Shankara said this, and Buddha said that, and some- body else says something else; in this fashion, they exchange views and call it jnana, But the one who passes on these opinions of others, when they gave these judgments was he there? Was it the state of affairs when one understood the presence of the other, and both understood each46 - The Experience of Nothingness other's presence? If that was the case, then it is differ- ent. But merely parroting the opinions of others, that is not knowledge. Things that happened in the past, as well as judgments given in the past, are being exchanged among a group of people who then call that knowledge. That primary concept, which is “I love,” not only that I exist but I love, that is the basic concept which brings about the assumption of all other concepts by people. For years and years I may not know that I was going to be born. Even the day prior to the concep- tion, I did not know I was going to be conceived. And then, after nine months, the body is born and after a few months, when the consciousness is actively work- ing, I realize that I am born. [To a particular visitor] 1 consider you a jnani and I want an answer from you: What was born and how was it born? That is, as far as you are concerned. V: Only the idea “I am.” M: Who told you about this? V: My parents. They told me I have a body, a charac- ter, and so on. M: That is all. Whatever knowledge you have is hearsay. That is my point. How can somebody who does not have knowledge of his true self be a guru? Only he can be a guru who has knowledge of his true nature. If one knew that he was going to be born, he would refuse. He would not have accepted the proposition that he should go in the food: Thank you, I'll pass, I don’t want it.A True Sage Has Transcended the Personality - 47 F M: In that state which prevails after the dropping of the body, is there any memory? Conventionally or tra- ditionally, people say there is still memory even after the body goes. I do not believe that, because there is no experience of it. So long as the body is there, the mind is there; and the mind creates an individually made memory pattern; therefore the individuality is there. When you are the manifest state, with the con- sciousness, there is no play of mind and therefore no individuality. You are the manifest only. So if at all thoughts occur, they will not be related to the individ- ualistic idea that manifests about nature only. What about the sages, who are dead and gone? Whatever state they had prior to assuming a body, they have reverted to that original state. This know- ingness, consciousness, “I-am-ness” comes only with the body that is given. When a jnani does not have a body, he does not need anything; he is Consciousness. I: In your country also there might be sages. So I said to Maharaj: The way we accept sages here with great reverence and awe is probably not customary there. There may be others—I don't really know. They have probably heard about sages like Ramana Maharshi because through Maharshi they came to know about the possibility of self-realization. M: A sage is one who has transcended individuality, personality, and abides in the manifest consciousness. So the yardstick is his abidance in consciousness. That48 - The Experience of Nothingness manifest consciousness expresses itself through a par- ticular body that is the sage. But that body has no individuality. Such entities only are true sages, being the background of manifest consciousness. V: Before coming to India, I had tried everywhere to get answers to my questions, but nobody would give them. I tried everyone, Catholics, Protestants, but no one could answer my fundamental questions. M: Why did they not answer? V: They did not know. For example, everybody was talking about the soul. So I said: What is this soul? Nobody knew. All these people were using the word, without explaining what it means. [The interpreter used the word atma for “soul” in his translation for Maharaj] Soul is not atma. Atma is impersonal, soul is a kind of spiritual personality. The soul is a mixture of atma and jiva. M: Do you understand what is the atma? V: That which remains when thought vanishes. M: And when the thought is there, what is it? V: When we are still. M: The atma conditioned, consciousness conditioned by thought. V: The atma is that which never changes, which all thoughts, fears and sense perceptions have in common.A True Sage Has Transcended the Personality - 49 I: You said, when thoughts are not there. But when the thoughts are there? V: Atma is also there. It is that which all thoughts and feelings have in common. It is something which is present in every thought, every feeling, and every sense perception, which does not change. M: Whatever you are, that consciousness, the know- ingness, that itself is the atma, When you understand that consciousness with the identity of the body, you suffer. A guru feels exhilarated when he sees that the disciple has become mature in spirituality, is growing from the inside. We must talk when it is indicative of that [maturing] only. I expect questions from you at your proper level, don’t send questions at lower levels. Vv: At my level, I am only interested in silence. M: Your talk is of such a high calibre or at such a high level that it is not intelligible to the common man of any religion. A Christian worships Jesus Christ, a Muslim believes in the prophet or a god, Hindus worship so many gods, but you do not do any of this. You do not discuss any of the rituals of worshipping, or doing this and that. You don't believe in all this, so your talking is really useless. Whatever you are, that “you are,” the conscious- ness, the atman or the self in you—that itself is noth- ing other than God. All the names and titles of other gods are meant for you only. You are the knowledge “I am.” So if you want to worship, worship that knowl- edge “I am.” Be devoted to that “I-am-ness” only. When you do that, all other rituals become redundant,50 + The Experience of Nothingness useless. Finally, when you realize that everything is useless, everything is Brahman, it means you are at the Parabrabman level, the absolute level. When at that level, you will envision everything as useless, including the Brahman because the Brabman is also reduced to illusion. Therefore, all these talks, including my own, will be reduced to illusion when you reach the highest. V: Then all this worshipping will be put to rest? M: If a human being has the inclination towards devotion, it gives rise to a certain mood—feelings of adoration and worship. However, the godly state, the consciousness or beingness, transcends even this emo- tional state. How to transcend such an emotional state? For this purpose, certain practices are recom- mended. Emotions should be sublimated; you cannot expel or suppress them, for the emotional side of us is part and parcel of human nature, certainly at the lower stages. V: [asks about a book by Ramdas] I: His [the visitor's] guru has told him that before reading the book, which will take say from two weeks to a month, he should worship it, you must give a prasad for that book. Do you know the meaning of prasad? Something to eat. M: Is that book going to eat? When you worship it, do you think that book is getting pleased? It is only to satisfy or sublimate your own emotion! Good or bad, it is all an expression of your emo- tions,A True Sage Has Transcended the Personality - 51 V: I want to know my atman. How should I proceed? M: “You are,” that itself is the atman. Atman is not to know anything; that very knowledge is the atman. Worship atman as the God; there is nothing else. You worship that principle only; nothing else needs to be done. This very knowledge “you are” will lead to the high- est, to the Ultimate. This “you are” is there so long as the vital breath is present. And when you worship that “you are” as the manifest Brahman only, you reach immortality. Suppose you pass on—in common par- lance, death occurs to you—then that “you are” knowledge will be the manifest knowledge only and it will not die. V: [asks a question in Marathi, untranslated] M: Who are you? You know you are sitting here, you know you are, without words. Just be that “you are” only. I don't like to use flowery, redundant language to put all this into words. I will come straight to the point. How many sages are going to talk from the standpoint of the self only? There is the only atman. He is the space-atman, the fire-atman, the water-atman—they are all the same for the five elements. The one who has the firm convic- tion that except for the “I-am-ness” there is no other self, he stabilizes in the Parabrabman. ad52 + The Experience of Nothingness M: The one who abides in that principle by which he knows “I am,” he is the manifest. He abides in that manifest Brahman all the twenty-four hours. Whether the body remains or not, that manifest self-principle always prevails. In that form comes the knowledge “I am.” With the knowledge “I am,” with the consciousness, with the self, the human particle is significant. Who are they who haye propounded the worship of deities and final- ly the Self? Only those personalities, those sages, who understood and transcended the very source of this manifest world, this beingness, this touch of “I-am- ness,” advocated to the masses the worship of the gods, ultimately leading to the beingness. You must continually remember, “chew the cud,” that the knowledge “I am” signifies knowing all the gods, all the Vedas; it is the Brahman only. You must continually think about it. And should, in the course of such reminiscing, the body drop off, then that con- sciousness will definitely be the highest.4. Ip YOU WANT THE HAPPINESS OF SELF, GET RID OF THE BODy-MIND SENSE Istror: We spend our lives always searching after some happiness. Manaraj: Could you define what is happiness? You won't be able to. Do you want the happiness of having a wife, the happiness of eating food? V: I want the happiness of self, M: If you want the happiness of self, get rid of the body-mind sense. There are plenty of things to talk about, and I can. But don’t talk about anything irrele- vant. Think about that self or the touch of “I-am-ness” only. Make that the very core of your being, and you will understand that itself is the manifest Brabman. INTERPRETER: If you have read the book [presumably referring to 1 Am That] and wish to make any com- ments, you may do so now. 5556 + The Experience of Nothingness M: I would like to know what is the knowledge you have of your own self, that you are. You are here right now. What is it that you are? To know that you are is that knowledge “you are” without words. V: Sometimes there is a mood of happiness which I cannot explain. At that moment, nothing can be explained. Now that I am sitting here, I can say: It happens like this, but that again is a bodily experi- ence. M: I call it...[unintelligible Marathi or Sanskrit expres- sion], the priormost “I-principle,” prior to anything. Subsequent to that, the five elements come out of that...conjuring up the space and the remaining four elements. So there, in that priormost principle, we have to stabilize. The question now is: Is one stabilizing downward or upward? Common parlance has it that I am getting elevated, my position is getting higher and higher. But it is not so. We have to subside, settle down into our original state, in our priormost state. So I prefer to call it the lower state: to subside into one’s founda- tion, sink into the Source. From your standpoint, what is knowledge? Knowl- edge is that which is collected by the words or their meaning, which means the mind. But that is not the self-knowledge. Self-knowledge cannot be captured by words or the mind. You are sitting here: “you are.” Prior to words. Now the hearsay goes “I am.” “I am” means the flow of mind has started. Now whatever you say with that “I- am-ness” through the mind about “you,” you have rep- resented as yourself. But that is not so. The traditional knowledge comprises whatever isGet Rid of the Body-Mind Sense - 57 collected through this mind or through the words, externally, But that is not the self-knowledge, which is prior to that also. How could there be any bondage or shackles to the atman? It is only the meaning of the words which one accepts for oneself that becomes the shackles. We want only that “self-knowledge” which is acceptable or palatable to the mind, not true knowledge. But that which is accepted by the mind is only a yoke. The atman principle remains untouched by the meaning of the words that flow from it. Even the four aspects of the language—para, pashyanti, madbyama and vaikbari—do not touch it. Words trying to describe that original, primordial state invariably fail. That is why the mind sinks into quietude and why the Vedas settle into quietude. And when there are no words to use, it means there are no Vedas. Even in the worldly, everyday life you must develop the conviction that whatever language sprouts out of you is the language of the Vedas only. V: This means that you must have that purity in you. M: We must be purified to that extent. In order for the Veda language to come out of us, it is not a ques- tion of being purified or not purified. One has to understand the principle. Whatever I say, you must apperceive directly, with- out the filter of the words. Because, if we accept the words, what happens? Based on those words, we cre- ate a concept; and then based on that concept, we accept that for what we are. We create an image based on a certain concept based on the words we think we are hearing, But that is not jrana. Only that which is directly apperceived is knowledge.58 + The Experience of Nothingness The capital we have is this knowledge “I am.” But what have we done? We have handed over that knowl- edge to the body and we say “I am the body.” Thereby we have reduced the totality, the limitless, to the limit- ed—a specified, insignificant body. And that is why, being unable to give up this association with the body, we are afraid of dying. If any idea is traumatic, it is the idea of death. Why? Because we are not able to disassociate ourselves from this identity with the body. The knowledge I try to convey will not be accept- able to the average person, even if he happens to be interested in spiritual knowledge. This is because he expects something from the point of view of the body, this identification with the body. In that state, as an object, he wants to get something—knowledge as an object—which is impossible because knowledge is purely subjective.’ How amusing it is that all of you are listening to what I am saying but do not accept what the words are trying to express regarding your identity. You lis- ten but the real meaning underlying the words is not accepted; there is no receptivity for what is being con- veyed. It is only a rare one who directly apperceives what I am trying to say without the words, one in ten million. You all entertain a certain concept, and whatever I say you are trying to have within the limits of that concept. Then you say, “yes, that is acceptable to me.” You listen to me, once, twice or several times; then at the end of a certain period you come to the conclu- sion: “I have not benefited much from Maharaj’s | Maharaj obviously does not use this term in the usual sense of “a matter of opinion.” He is referring to the knowlwdge that lies beyond the subject-object relationship, when the subject is knowing himself as subject and not as objectGet Rid of the Body-Mind Sense - 59 words.” Why? Because, based on the words you are trying to create an image about yourselves. And when, whatever I say appeals to you according to that con- cept, you say “Yes, now I have got the knowledge, and now I understand what Maharaj is saying and Maharaj is right." Why? Because what I say appeals to your concept. I would like to know from all of you whether what I say appeals to you as truth and is beneficial. I repeat: When does one say that it is beneficial? When it tallies with the concept one cherishes. Then you say “Yes, it is beneficial." And when it does not tally, you say “Sorry, that does not appeal to me, it is not for me.” We stick to the words and the meaning, forgetting that what we are is prior to even the beginning of not only the word but also the first basic thought. : Then, there is no communication, no grasp of what is being said? M: I started saying that that which you are is prior to any words or thoughts. So that cannot be identified as such. You can have a word and meaning for almost anything, but for this sver [literally: “being”] there is no author, no word. Any other thing has been or can be acquired, but with respect to this there is no acqui- sition, you are That. Many of these japi-tapis, even those who consider themselves as jnanis, are still entangled in the concept based on certain words. Any mind- or word-created design can have no real significance to you, for it is only conceptual; your true nature is such that it can have no color or design. V: Ihave read the questions and answers from I Am That. I found it hard to understand how Maharaj,60 - The Experience of Nothingness though in the body, always answers questions from the highest level only, and somehow it has filled me with the greatest happiness; it may be bodily happi- ness also, I do not want to say anything about that. But both of us, my son and myself, have had supreme moments of joy—“peak experiences,” if you like—dur- ing the reading of some of the answers, M: Because I am stabilized in that foremost absolute principle, all the talk will emanate from that level only. Whenever you talk from the five-elemental bodily or consciousness state, that will pertain to the worldly life. But this is purely the knowledge related to the highest.5. DON’T BE IDENTIFIED WiTH A CorPSE, AND BE Happy! IsiTor: Sitting in Maharaj’s presence, I had a certain bodily experience. How should I understand this? MAHARAJ: In trying to understand the experience, whatever significance your words and concepts give to it will be acceptable to you. But that is not the knowl- edge. That is why I am not very keen to ask people to stay for any extended period of time, because if you do stay that long you will not be able to understand. In the course of your initial eight or ten days, whatev- er is somewhat understood will first have to be prop- erly digested; until then any further talks will not be absorbed. Assuming that a person is knowledgeable, then what will happen is this: having left this place, he will not be able to remain alone for long. He craves company to whom he can deliver the goods of spiritu- ality. He likes to seek out somebody with whom he can talk and discuss spirituality; otherwise, he feels very unhappy. Will you feel happy and satisfied if you 6364 ~ The Experience of Nothingness don't encounter other sadhakas? The question was asked [by the translator] whether it is not necessary for a serious seeker to go through this stage where one likes to dole out whatever knowl- edge one has, to share it with others? My answer was that this is a part of the process, but that it also must come to an end, this desire to discuss and exchange views on spirituality. That highest state is the unborn state, in which there is no experience. [According to the translator, Maharaj is not feeling well today; he is very weak, almost in a daze. Before the sickness or my present condition, I was there. This sickness has come as a temporary phase, but I am prior to that. People normally feel, when sickness comes, that they are going to die. But I am not going to die; there is no death to me, but it is the sickness that will accept it. If a sick person will remember this principle only— that prior to the sickness he was and his true nature is ever prior to the sickness—if he truly realizes this, then the impact of the sickness will be less. On the other hand, when so-called “knowledgeable” people are sick, they accelerate their death by imagining that they are going to die. What do you understand by the word “dream”? How do you understand a dream? Is not the dream something like a drama, a play? In the light of the con- sciousness, all kinds of play take place; the dream is one of these, and in the end it again merges into the consciousness. To one who realizes that this consciousness is an indication of his presence, that it is in fact conscious presence—when I am conscious, it means that I am present—all bewilderment ceases. Thus, within thatDon't be Identified with a Corpse - 65 presence as such, there is no individual present who sees something; that is, there is neither the seer nor the seen in the impersonal presence. Again, I repeat, that impersonal presence is merely an indication of presence as such, not of any individual. It is an assur- ance, a guarantee of one's presence. If I have con- sciousness, it means I am certain that I am present. To one who really understands what has been said here, a dream is no different from what is seen in the waking state: both are plays in the consciousness. Because of the light of the consciousness, we call one thing the waking state, another thing the dream, but in essence both are events happening in the con- sciousness and essentially they are not different. In this impersonal presence as such, the only thing present is the light of consciousness, without any form or shape. Whatever is seen is seen in that light. Many people are under the impression that they are acting in the play; but this is a mistaken notion. All that hap- pens is that the light of the consciousness shows vari- ous things happening. V: The actor is part of the play? M: Why does something appear to us as actual or real? Because something that one sees every day or often conveys a sense of reality or actuality. Therefore we accept it as more actual, more real, than some- thing that appears in a dream, but essentially they are the same. How is a jnani? The jnani is like the cigarette lighter, without the flame. When the lighter is lit, the consciousness comes in. And whatever happens is seen in the light of that consciousness. But whether or not there is the light of the consciousness, the jnani is66 - The Experience of Nothingness ever there. In deep sleep we are like the condition of the unlit lighter. There is no light, therefore nothing happens. But even in that state, the light may come on; from the moment that slight consciousness arises, the dream occurs and one appears to act in that dream, as part of the dream, I repeat, I am not talking about what happens to an individual. 1 am only talking about the total manifesta- tion and how that manifestation arises, Because of the impersonal consciousness, there is the impersonal presence. But a difficulty arises, because, while the composite consisting of body, vital breath and con- sciousness has no shape or form, we identify all three with the body, and so we become unhappy. But once we realize the basis of it—that the total manifestation is only in the impersonal consciousness, which is Pres- ence, impersonal presence—there is no longer any dif- ficulty. On the other hand, so long as this charge of having a male or female body is not removed from that which exists impersonally, the trouble will contin- ue and unhappiness will persist. This composite of body/vital breath/knowingness does not know itself as “I am” in the absence of that knowledge “I am.” The vital force is also our self: with- out form. Similarly, the knowingness has no form. Now this vital force depends on the food essence body to sustain itself; and on the manas, that is the mind: it also feeds on the mind. This vital force is the agent for all activities. And this knowledge “I am” is a mere wit- ness, yet this entire composite must be available. To repeat: that vital force does not know itself, it does not go into activity in the absence of the knowledge “I am.” And that knowledge is available only if a sustain- ing body is available. Now so long as you do not remove the charge that this vital force, and the knowl-Don’t be Identified with a Corpse - 67 edge “I am,” is male or female, on account of bodily association, you are bound to suffer. Maybe the examples I have given are somewhat pedestrian, but my intention was only to create a stronger impact, How would a jnani feel when he gives up his body? What type of pleasure or bliss does he experience? Imagine a newly wed couple: the pleasure which they derive from their wedding night is as nothing com- pared to the highest bliss a jnani gets when he quits his body or his life force. I call it the highest bliss in the best festival, on the “highest day” (the term nor- mally used in spiritual parlance), Compared with the love play of the wedding night, whatever pleasure the couple realize in coming together, the happiness a jnani derives in getting separated from the vital breath and the knowingness is thousands of times superior. They [the couple] are coming together, he is coming apart! Take the example of this cigarette lighter. The latter is something like nirgunarajas, that is the “heat state.” My original, true state is nirgunarajas. Now on the lighter, and because of the lighter, that flame appears. In the flame, the knowledge “I am” is there, the mind is there and the vital force is there. The vital force car- ties out all the activities. The mind communicates, and the knowledge “I am” is merely a witness; this is the actual state of affairs. For the emanation of any talk the flame must be available. That is, the “I-am-ness,” the vital breath and the mind must be present; then only the talk can come out, My state is nirgunarajas; I am like that lighter only; the flame may be there or it may not. I am nirgu- na and nirrajas, I have no attributes; in my state that beingness is absent. Similarly, I don’t require any68 - The Experience of Nothingness rajas; that means, J don’t want any entertainment activities. In my true state, nothing is. When the knowingness or “I-am-ness” state is there, and the vital breath and mind are also present— this being the rajas state, as compared to the nirrajas state of the lighter—some occupation or entertain- ment is essential. This can be observed in all of us. We can never stay idle; we are always occupied with one thing or another. When the vital breath quits the body, the “I-am-ness” also goes; what remains is only the nirrajas-nirguna state. The former I call the flame state; that is, the “I-am- ness.” Earlier I said it is the sagunabrabman state. That is, the body is there, the vital breath is there, the mind is there, and that knowingness or “J-am-ness” is there, All that is being entertained by maya. The state in the absence of this beingness or the maya is that nirguna-nirrajas state—mayatita (prior to maya), the Absolute state. A hundred years back, what were you? At that time, you did not have the knowledge “you are.” The memory that you are was missing. Presently, in the temporary phase, you have the knowledge “you are.” But to have this knowledge, what are the prerequi- sites? The essence is required, sattva-guna. This means the quintessence of the food essence is necessary to sustain the “I-am-ness” or this beingness. And that essence in turn depends on the food body. But all these together—that is, food body quintessence, and the knowledge “I am,” the vital breath and the mind— these are all a temporary phase only; so long as food essence is available, the knowingness will last. Now how to escape from all this? This knowingness is to discover itself; it should realize itself. Then, in the process of its realization it is able to quit this stateDon't be Identified with a Corpse - 69 and abide in the Absolute, in the non-knowingness state. So one must abide in oneself first, in the know- ingness state. Whenever you sit for meditation, you hold on to the form-concept that you are a male or a female. Give up these concepts! To do such meditation is almost impossible; only a rare one will do it, without that identification with the body-mind. V: I get a glimpse of your state, as to what you are— intellectually, that is. But in my daily life, I am so much under stress...my wife thinks this way, some- body else thinks that way—I am always under tension. So how to get rid of this? M: I am telling you a simple thing. Get rid of the notion that you are this corpse. The body is dead always, the body is inert. It is alive only by means of your “I-am-ness.” You are not the body, Hold on to this concept very firmly, and then whatever happens, it is not yours. Somebody is itching to ask questions. [laughter] V: There is quite a big gap between that state and my present state. There is a considerable time gap; I have to do sadhana, purify myself and all that. How can I manage to do all these religious and worldly duties in my busy life? M: You have recourse to naturopathy; with that not only will you do good to yourself but also to the soci- ety. Do all the social work, and you will enjoy lots of merit. As to me, I am fed up with this entire waking state and sleep state. Without these two states, I was in the70 + The Experience of Nothingness perfect, peaceful state. Did you ever hear the words “sorrow” and “misery” in the absence of the deep sleep and waking states? The knowledge “I am” is the product of interaction within the five-elemental state. You are not that! You, as the Absolute, are not the knowledge “I am.” V: Most of us are not satisfied, we are fed up with life; there is some urge, but it is not sufficiently strong, to withdraw from this daily grind. M: How can you dispose of this problem? You resent that you are the body, that you are the mind, you are this sattva-guna. I am not the body, that standpoint you must have. It is very simple. The body and in the body...it is like a coin. On one side, you have the vital breath for making possible all activity; and on the other side is the knowledge “I am.” Only when the vital breath is there, the knowledge “I am” is present. When the vital breath leaves the body, the knowledge “I am” also dis- appears. And both of these are the product of the food essence body. I am not that; this entire compos- ite I am not. This you have to realize. Who are your ancestors? They are the food parti- cles—that food essence. Those food essences are your real ancestors. On the earth there is vegetative growth. I call it vanaspati, The quintessence of that vanaspati is the food essence; out of that grows vachaspati. The latter means: insects, worms, bees, mammals, etc.—all types of creatures. They survive on this essence of vanaspati. Now in that vanaspati juice, that quintessential vegetation juice, there is also a par- ticle, a granule, which contains the sattva-guna, the rajas-guna and tamas-guna. The particle quintessenceDon't be Identified with a Corpse - 71 contains all three qualities. The sattva-guna is mere witness, beingness, a touch of “I-am-ness.” Rajas-guna is activity; this guna leads you to activity. And tamas- guna represents the claiming of authorship, taking the credit, for the activities. Unlike what one can read in the scriptures, your ancestors are in these grains of wheat and rice; in the essence of those are our ancestors, Therein the real essence of our creation is contained.6. THE EXPERIENCE OF NOTHINGNESS Istror: There arises a feeling of sadness when one hears from Maharaj that I will have to return again and again so long as I have not attained that state of joy, of realization. Manaray: It is just like that flame: You can quit this cycle of travail when you understand that you are not that flame. You are not this composite. So long as you entertain the notion of being a name and a form, you are bound to be enmeshed in your own concepts. V: Why does the flame appear? M: That is its very nature. Vv: If my nature is in the lighter, why does a flame appear? M: This is not a relevant question. Why does the rain fall? Why should the sun shine? There is no cause for the world experience. For your own experience there 7374 + The Experience of Nothingness is no cause, but you presume that parents are the cause of your existence. Because you respect your parents, you accept they are the cause of your exis- tence. Otherwise, you spontaneously came into exis- tence. V: All the knowledge that science and technology have given us is because of inquiring: Why does it rain, why does that move—the whys and wherefores of everything. Does Maharaj want us to quit all this science and technology, and dwell in our inner being through withdrawal? That is a way, but how to balance things? After all, we have to live and work. ™M: Science may eventually combine different kinds of juices and create a human being, but it is not going to contribute to the general well-being and peace. The peace will go to pieces! There is only one solution: that is to find out why you are. What is the cause of your being, “I am"? Actually, you had no knowledge that you are or you were. But at this moment, you know you are. Why is that? Understand its cause. You alone know why you are; why it is offered to you that you are, you alone know. Don’t ask anyone else about it, but inquire by yourself. Don’t bother about others; worry only about your own self. That knowledge “I am” is the product of what, is due to what? How and why? Inquire only into this matter. Nine months ago the child was not there. Now just three days back, the child was born. And he is crying. What is the child’s crying? What is this child? How does he happen to be? The child is crying, due to what, the product of what? The world is manifest and expansive. Don’t get lostThe Experience of Nothingness - 75 there; just inquire as to why you are, how you are, how you happen to be. You were not there earlier. At present you are; how has this confluence taken place, from the “you-are-not” state... V: There are so many different counsels: Go and visit different countries, do this, do that, do social work, get acquainted with different people, etc. Also there is withdrawal, having read the scriptures, Ramana Maharshi, Krishnamurti and others. So the mind is doubting. For this withdrawal, one needs the help of a guru. Is this guru predestined as it says in the Vedas? You know, I have seen different gurus; I have been to Krishnamurti, Maharaj, Ramana Maharshi, and have read various books and different teachings. Rajneesh seems to give a modern way, science and technology also...Maharaj gives one dimension only. He says: withdraw, be desireless and be active. How to decide who is the best guru? [laughter] M: J am telling you a simple thing. Accept one state- ment from any guru. Assimilate that fully and believe in yourself, consider and accept your own self as the guru. Accept no one else as such. The final prerequi- site for this spiritual precept is self-confidence, a firm faith in oneself, If you have no faith in your own self, you are hopeless. You are an outcast. Your self itself is the guru. Do you understand now? The guru is Brab- man; the guru is knowledge, the guru is brihaspati, and the sum total of all that is your own self. Be76 + The Experience of Nothingness V: I want to ask about God's grace and free will. M: The bare fact that you are alive, you are, that itself is the grace of God. And all the activities that happen through you are the expression of the grace. In such situations, if something bad happens, remember that “you are’—merely because of the grace of God. If the grace of God were not there, that “you-are-ness” would not be there. So remember that “you are” itself is the grace of God. V: Unintelligible question about doing japa [reciting a name of God]. M: The whole significance of doing japa dwells in your faith. You must have faith first. Your self-identity is nourished by such faith through japa. Don't do any- thing mechanically, for then there is no soul in the recitation of the japa. If you don’t recite soulfully, there is no point in it at all. Do plenty of dhyana-yoga meditation. Practice meditation, more and more. od M: I would like to make room for newcomers. Eight days for them only; that should be sufficient for every- one. Some people I will request to stay; I can’t explain why. And some people, although they would like to stay, I will send away. There are various kinds of seek- ers. Some come exclusively for knowledge; they are not interested in the person who delivers it. Once they get the knowledge, they go. Other people want knowl- edge but for them the priority is guru worship. Devo-The Experience of Nothingness - 77 tion to the guru comes first and only incidentally they collect knowledge. There are some great sages who in their seeker stage used to do devotion or worship of a god only for namesake, but because of their intensity of devotion reached their goal. The one who is doing devotion to his guru, to such a person even the god is devoted. 4 INTERPRETER: Because of Maharaj’s sickness, many types of experts have come here to offer their advice. So today one person told him that he knew of a healer who could diagnose an illness by feeling the ten fin- gers and ten toes and could then suggest some treat- ment. So he approached Maharaj whether he would be interested to have such a person come to see him. But Maharaj said he was not interested and continued to state: “I am not the least interested in this daily rit- ual of getting up in the morning, eating and again sleeping and all this...1 have had enough of all that. I do not expect anything from this world. I am not going to achieve, attain, possess anything, because I am fed up with that very consciousness out of which the world is created and want to get rid of this con- sciousness.” M: People are visiting this place, I treat them with respect, and reply to all their questions. But this does not mean that I expect them to come daily. Although they come here, it does not mean that I am seeking their association. I would like to be alone. Whatever natural experiences you encounter, just78 + The Experience of Nothingness accept them as they come. Just be with them. Don’t try to alter anything. Whatever is today, it never was: and whatever is today will never be in future. Knowing this entire game of consciousness or Maya, the great sage Jnaneshwar made his valedictory prayer before taking samadhi. He prayed to God and said: Let the desires of all be fulfilled. Any kind of desire! And then, let the bad people be punished and let good intentions develop in the hearts of people. In spite of that prayer, there was no change in the sum total of those bad things and good things. Finally, all this play—the sum total of all these bad things and good things—is illusion only. And there is nobody responsible for the creation! It has spontaneously come about and ultimately it is an illusion. So there is no question of rectifying or preventing that. It will go on in its own way. There have been so many sages, japi-tapi’s [seekers practicing japas and tapas (austerities)], spiritual seek- ers of various orders, they have come and gone, but I raise no objection to whatever they say or the way they behave. I have no comments on them. I have come to the conclusion that the world is spontaneous- ly there without any seed [cause]; its creation is seed- less, but in the world it is full of seeds for me. Procreation or re-creation is going on all the time. V: Since Maharaj is a jnani, he must be despising this whole world as something very mean and low? M: That question does not arise, because from my standpoint the world is not. You indicate to me where is the world, what is the world? Can you point your finger and say: “This is the world”? The world is not; it is a mere appearance.The Experience of Nothingness - 79 Vv: Having attained knowledge, how is it that you have been able to associate with various kinds of peo- ple? Some fellows might be very bad, some people may be obsessed by their minds, some people are good—how could you get on with all such persons? M: Who is to get on? I have no pose, no stance, no fixed form of my own. If I had, it would be difficult to relate to anybody. Since I don’t have any form, by nothingness I have become the subtlest, so I can fit into anything, any situation. Suppose a man is rich, he is wearing a lot of orna- ments and expensive clothes; when he leaves his house there is always danger lurking. This is on account of the fact that he represents so many ideas, concepts, and because of his reputation that he is somebody, that he is a rich man. He is afraid of going into the street. A naked beggar who goes into the street has nothing to lose. Similarly, having lost every- thing, I have nothing more to lose; I can encounter any situation and fit into anything. So long as you wear a name and a form, all these problems will be there. In the absence of name and form, there are no problems. Let us say, I have land and property, with farms, etc. About the time of the rains there are always concerns such as whether I will be able to till the soil, whether there are seeds avail- able, etc.; all such worries exist. After losing the farms, I am freed from such concerns and all that can be ignored. While sticking to your name and form, you have to worry about things. In the spiritual pursuit, you grad- ually lose your form and as the form is shed, the name also detaches itself. There are ever so many cus- tomers; all are out to gain and possess something in80 - The Experience of Nothingness the name of knowledge, even spiritual knowledge, but nobody is a customer for the true self-knowledge. I will tell you about the normal tendency of a per- son. There is the story about an old man, quite well off, who had a very satisfying family life, had worldly possessions, and had lived to about a hundred or a hundred-twenty-five years. And now he lies on his deathbed in his village house. Normally in the villages even the cattle shed is attached to the main building itself. So you can watch from the bedroom and see the cattle shed. Even on his deathbed, he will not be inclined to thinking very noble thoughts, he will not be contemplating something very “high.” He is look- ing at the calf, and the calf was chewing a broomstick. He was very worried about the broomstick getting damaged, so he was shouting: “Off with the broom- stick!,” while about to kick the bucket. He was calling out: “The broomstick, the broomstick! Take care of the broomstick!” While uttering that “broomstick, broomstick...” he breathed his last. The traditional concept is that whatever strong con- cern one has at the time of death, he will be reincar- nated into. So probably he will be born as a broomstick! ad M: The question is: What yardstick exists to measure the progress of a seeker? A very weak man was not able to walk. Gradually, he started getting stronger and began to walk. So then he knows that he has regained his strength, does he not? The indication of one’s progress is shown by your disinclination to asso-The Experience of Nothingness - 81 ciate with so-called “normal” people. Your desires and expectations get less and less. Please ask some questions, but don’t ask anything about family life; ask only about spiritual knowledge. You must have an intense hunger or need for it, to get self-knowledge or spirituality. The complete world picture you get through the five sense organs, and the combination of that multiplied by a certain factor rep- resents your worldly needs. Just like a fish out of water gasps for water, so you must covet self-knowl- edge. When out of intense hunger for spirituality or self-knowledge the floodgates are opened, you start rejecting everything, from the broomstick to Ishvara, up to your own consciousness; you shed everything. In the worldly life, with the power of money, you can purchase anything. Similarly, by donating the self, you get the Brahman state; and when you donate the Brabman state, you get the Parabrahman state. In the first state, you become the manifest consciousness; in the second or the last state, you surrender the con- sciousness also. At the end of the process you are the Parabrabman. V: I know the experience of the nothingness, and I just wanted to know where do I go from here? M: In that nothingness, what is present? That “you” which has been present in that nothingness and has had the experience of nothingness, who or what is that? Someone or something has had the experience of nothingness; now what is that someone or some- thing? V: Complete emptiness.82 - The Experience of Nothingness M: What is that experience itself? Does it have a shape or form? V: I can't think of any shape or form for it. M: That which has no shape or form, is that “you”? V: I don’t know. I have only had this experience and I feel every thought and everything else was just a lot of rubbish. Everything in the world is just a lot of non- sense, it has no meaning. The only thing I have got is “nothing,” that is the only thing that has meaning. I can't express it... M: That is all right. But in the balance of all this experience and no-experience, what is it that you think you are? What is your knowledge about your own identity? What result have you got? What is the balance sheet? Ultimately, what is the conclusion you have arrived at about your self? Is there something at all, or are you also nothing? V: [am nothing. M: Don’t use the word “I.” But what is it that is nothing? V: I don't know. M: Have you done any meditation? V: There was a seminar of EST, a four-day course of continual meditation; I went to one of those.,.and that's where I got the experience of nothingness.The Experience of Nothingness - 83 M: What does EST stand for? Vv: EST is an organization; it means “to be” in French. It is a regular institution that gives seminars. M: The answer you have given is correct. But with that answer, there is nothing further that can be said. Have you come to that conclusion with conviction? V: Yes, I have. You see, I have felt that this nothing- ness, if it indeed is the ultimate reality that I have been looking for, then I am not happy with it because it does not seem to nurture me. M: If there is nothingness, then there is nothingness about [nothing left of] an individual either. So who is it who is grumbling, who is not satisfied with the experience, with the nothingness? If there is nothing- ness, there must be total nothingness. There can’t be an individual who is away from it and can still say, “There is nothingness.” So what is this individual, who is not satisfied with the total nothingness, which it is? Who is dissatisfied? Who is grumbling? In that nothingness, the individual also must be dis- solved. Then who is it that is grumbling? Who is it that is not satisfied? V: Oh, grumbling means...there is no interest now in doing anything or fighting the battles of life as we used to do before, like warriors. I: So that individual has been dissolved? V: There is nothing, absolutely nothing.84 + The Experience of Nothingness I: Then, where is the dissatisfaction? Dissatisfaction must be felt by somebody! V: How can one live in this world... I: But who? That is Maharaj’s question! V: The physical body, the physical manifestation. How can it live and how can it survive on this earth with a form if all the time it has got this concept of complete nothingness? M: I come back to the same thing. What is it that has to do anything in this nothingness? What is it that is left in this nothingness who has to do anything? Vv: Perhaps this nothingness was only a beginning, and was just a quest like everything else. M: Something has turned into nothingness. What is that something that has turned into nothingness? This consciousness that I am, that I exist, that concept itself has turned into nothingness. So what is left? Who is left? V: Nothing is left. M: The answer is a hundred percent correct, But I wanted to find out how steady you are in that nothing- ness. What is or is not, don’t argue about that; we can only talk about what has happened to you. And you as an individual or the conscious presence has been dis- solved into nothingness. That is all you can say. Once you are in that situation, there is nothing; whatever work you do, whatever your behavior, is theThe Experience of Nothingness - 85 work and behavior of that child of a barren woman, that does not exist as an individual. V: No, I feel as if I am an observer to this whole thing; it is all a massive play, you know—an act. M: If the one who observes that is also dissolving into nothingness, then what? V: But he can’t, because the physical body is there. M: The answer was a hundred percent correct. Therefore, I assume that that to which this answer has been has also been dissolved into nothingness, and that there is no individuality left. But from your sub- sequent treatment of this problem I conclude that this individuality still remains. Therefore, my final answer to you is that you continue to do your sadhana, The jnani who has this experience of nothingness, his individuality does not remain. So whatever hap- pens, he no longer has an instrument with which to undergo any experience. But in your case, you say that nothingness is there, and also your individuality— the two are incompatible [that is, mutually exclusive]. Therefore, continue to do your sadhana. If you really are at a stage where you find the nothingness, what then is left to do anything in this world? V: There is nothing left. But then what should I do, commit suicide? : You are not there even to die! V: No, I appreciate that. That is not the answer either. Nothing is an answer to this. But where do I go from here?86 + The Experience of Nothingness M: The lady was explaining that there are all kinds of EST type of methods and systems which come with the promise of liberation in ten or twelve days. As for myself, I no longer care about all this. I have come to this nothingness in which the search has ended because the seeker has also disappeared into that nothingness of which we are talking. I no longer take any interest in that research, First, I have seduced Maya and once the Maya surrendered to me, I had no other use for Maya so I threw her out. Thousands of organizations have come and gone, thousands are yet to come. All of them are based ona certain concept, For example, one had the concept of untouchability; now to a certain extent that concept of untouchability has gone. But have the people because of that concept been able to realize their true nature? Therefore, none of these organizations have any use; the ultimate thing is to find out about one’s true nature. In this, organizations can do nothing, because they are all based on a certain concept. V: But this organization put me in touch with my beingness and that is the whole point. M: In that very nothingness which we have been dis- cussing, the individuality should have been dissolved so that there is no longer anyone who is satisfied or dissatis- fied. How could he be satisfied, because there is no longer anything to be satisfied in, in that nothingness? So what you have got is not the real thing, although your answer was a hundred percent correct. Only that individ- ual who has lost his individuality has merged with the Parabrabman. So the individuality must go, The entire world moves on the basis of one concept, and that is “I am”—the fundamental concept of one’s individuality.—— The Experience of Nothingness - 87 V: When the basic concept is “I am nothing,” how can the world move? That is what I am trying to express. M: If you had come to the conclusion that you are not, then how can any further concept or any further question arise? If you had really come to the firm con- clusion that “I-am-ness” is no longer there, how can any further question arise at all? V: That means there is nothing further than that? M: Everything that is there, it is fullness and it is nothingness. So long as I do not have that “I-am- ness,” I no longer have the concept that I am an indi- vidual. Then my individuality has merged into this everythingness or nothingness and everything is all right. V: But there is no everythingness, it is nothingness. I do not get the feeling of everythingness. That is what I am trying to say. Mz So if there is nothingness, then who is to do any- thing anyway? Assuming that there is nothingness, who is there to search for anything, even everything- ness? In that nothingness, you are also not there. Then who is it that wants anything more than this? V: I don’t know. Again the answer that you don’t know is a hun- dred percent correct because in that state where you did not know, you did not even know that you existed And this “I-am-ness” has come subsequently without88 + The Experience of Nothingness your wanting it. And whatever knowledge you have now has been accumulating since the arrival of this “I- am-ness.” But in your original state, the not-knowing is there. V: The problem is where do I go from here? M: Who? The question is “who” is to go anywhere? It started with the whole thing and the circle is now complete. In that nothingness, we are also nothing- ness. So who is to go anywhere? For whom are there any more questions left? In that nothingness, anything is nothingness. You are also nothingness. Your question is very much like the child of a child- less couple asking “Where do I go from here?” Where is he to go? And from where has he come? I will con- tinue with the same old simile. A very old couple are held in great esteem, love and reverence by all their acquaintances. So the couple dies. All the acquain- tances decide that they must do something for the child. But the child had not been born. For whom could they do something? Once the knowledge of the self dawns, there is no longer any question of good or bad, suffering or not suffering, happiness or unhappiness; the question just does not arise. Are there any further questions? V: If the jnani is beyond consciousness and uncon- sciousness, he must contain consciousness. The jnani, after all, is the totality, How can that which contains consciousness not be conscious? M: Knowledge, the entire manifestation, is the form of knowledge, jnana. But the jnani has no form orThe Experience of Nothingness - 89 shape; he has transcended consciousness. Therefore, whatever acts is the universal consciousness and not the jnani. So, don’t talk anymore about the jnani. Rather talk about this consciousness—individual con- sciousness or the universal consciousness—which is the basis of all your thoughts. So that subject you should discuss. Forget about the jnani, because he is beyond that. And whatever you think the jnani is talk- ing about, it is not the jnani talking but the universal consciousness. Whatever you discuss, it can only be on the basis of this “I-am-ness.” Forget about this jnani aspect, inquire only about jnana. V: That is where the shoe pinches: this conflict between jnana and the jnani. However high you go, however deep you go inwardly, unless you become a jnani, there will always be a path that goes beyond it; one will not be satisfied with the universal conscious- ness, one will ever want to go further. M: There is no question of anyone becoming a jnani. The jnani is out of time, so one cannot become one. A jnani in the process of stabilizing in the jnana state possesses for some time the pride of that “I am Brab- man” state and therefore talks about it. That, however, is not the ultimate jnani state. I will not participate in any concept of yours. V: There are a group of ethical concepts—loyalty, gratitude, justice, keeping one’s word, etc. Now, it has also been said that this is something beyond good and evil, neither good nor bad, etc. But certain groups of concepts like those I mentioned seem to be insepara- bly connected to the concept of the man of achieve-90 - The Experience of Nothingness ment. In other words, one assumes that such a man would somehow embody these qualities. My question is: Is that right or is it just an illusion? I: What do you mean by “a man of achievement”? V: A jnani. I: Ah, but a man of achievement in the world, that is quite different. M: All the qualities you mentioned as well as all pos- sible qualities you can imagine are in consciousness or knowledge. The jnani, however, is beyond all qualities and concepts. Vs: O.K., I have one supplement to my question: Does such a person want... I: No, because there is no “person.” Therefore, all the qualities are in knowledge or the consciousness. The jnani is beyond all concepts and all qualities, He is no longer an individual; therefore, whatever applies to an individual does not apply to him. That is the answer to the question. All the misconceptions arise because we think of the jnani as an individual. The jnani has lost his individuality. Maharaj explains that he is not only not an individ- ual, but he is also beyond the duality of manifestation and non-manifestation. Do you have any questions? V: No. I: What has happened? No questions! Silence is aThe Experience of Nothingness - 91 good defense, self-protection. Maybe, you are afraid to expose yourself. V: Is it correct to assume that somebody who is to be what Maharaj talks about will ordinarily manifest the qualities of justice, loyalty, gratitude, honesty, etc.? M: That is not necessarily so at all. Even a murderer can get knowledge. His past deeds or the absence of these good qualities never come in the way. A classical example is Valmiki, who wrote Ramayana. For every murder he committed he put a tiny pebble in a vessel, and in this manner he accumulated seven enormous vessels filled to the brim. All these murders he had committed did not prevent him being a jnani. Ultimately, all these concepts can and must be understood to be false, but the difficulty and the essential thing is to be convinced that the original, basic concept “I am” itself is false. You like the talks? V: Ilike getting answers. M: Having obtained and digested the answers, one's ego must gradually dissipate. If there are no further questions, we will close this meeting.7 WHEN CONSCIOUSNESS MANIFESTS, DUALITY APPEARS ‘ reAe | anaRay: If you want to remember our com- Wiis} ing here this morning, treat that as the high- est god which gives us the sense of presence—this conscious presence, which makes us feel that we are, we exist, we are alive, we are pre- sent. If you do, it will unfold itself and gives us all the necessary knowledge. You must have the firmest conviction that this con- sciousness is our parent principle, the highest god; then you will have all the necessary knowledge. If there is one principle which can save us, which is our only capital, it is that which gives us the sense of pres- ence, this consciousness. Be one with it, pray to it, and treat it as the only god. Whatever we have, what- ever we acquire, is only because of this consciousness, and to be one with it we don’t require any imple- ments, any instruments, any money; there is no expense involved! This consciousness is free of inhibitions, any condi- tions, and, being without obstructions, it is totally free. If we resort to it, it will also make us free. 9394 . The Experience of Nothingness Visrtor: Why is it that the jnani is not aware of the universal knowledge? M: Why is the space unaware of anything that has happened? How is it that the sky is not affected by events happening on earth? Behind the four ele- ments—air, water, fire and earth—the space is always there. V: What is meant by a “pure heart"? INTERPRETER: Please, don’t ask frivolous questions. Whatever energy one has to spare, let us spend it on valuable questions. V: One question usually leads to another, and there has got to be a starting point somewhere. So a ques- tion like this is moving ahead a little bit, stimulating more questions. I: Here it should be just the other way. The frequency or the intensity of questions should be getting less and less. If your questions are multiplying, something must be wrong somewhere. V: Yesterday I came here and found the “I am.” What do I do now? M: Nothing else, that is all. You forget it and go! V: Ihave been to Tiruvannamalai quite a number of times, in Ramana Maharshi’s ashram. A German lady there showed me a book on the teachings of Maharshi and told me a similar teaching and philosophy exist- ed_that given by Maharaj.When Consciousness Manifests, Duality Appears - 95 M: How long have you been going to Ramanashram? V: Only for the past five years. I: Did you read his [i.e., Maharaj’s] book I Am That? V: I only read one or two questions on the subject of death. M: You have been reading Ramana Maharshi's book and found it interesting. In what way did you find it so with reference to yourself? V: My orientation has been basically advaita vedanta, so that ] have been reading in his book. I: Having read those books, would you like to ask any questions? V: 1 am feeling happy in trying to follow this philoso- phy. Is there a necessity to meet a living guru or is it sufficient to have faith in a guru who has left his body? M: The aim is to awaken yourself to the faith in the self, “I am.” That is the entire purpose. So whatever is inducive to that development you may accept. Sup- posing you have faith in a living guru, then accept a living guru. If you have faith in a guru who has left his body, accept that guru. V: But is there more benefit to one type over the other? M: When you were not knowing anything, what was96 - The Experience of Nothingness the first thing you came to know in your whole span of life? V: The self. And then came other things. M: You started with knowing nothing, including you did not know yourself. So what is it that you started knowing first? V: I started reading the Gita, reading Krishna. M: You did sot know anything. You did not know yourself either! So where is the scope for Gita? At this time of your life, when you were not know- ing yourself, what was the first thing you came to know about? You started knowing so many things, after you started knowing yourself. You came to know “I am,” and then you came to know other things. How did that happen? V: It happened probably because of my previous Leeann ™M: These are all stories you have heard. After you came to know yourself, you started knowing so many things. But what knowledge did you have before even you came to know yourself? V: One comes to know all kinds of worldly things, but the world does not bring me any happiness or pleasure. But reading these books... M: Please reply to the question.When Consciousness Manifests, Duality Appears - 97 Vv: I have probably not understood properly...the question, M: How did you come to know your own self? After- wards, you can do-so many things. How did that hap- pen? V: The self came to know this body. M: First of all, this knowingness appeared, the know- ingness “I am”; later on you embraced the body. V: Correct. M: Hold on to this only, and don’t ask any questions. Tam addressing the consciousness, am expounding consciousness in terms of the same consciousness. You came to know yourself, “I am.” To abide in that is itself the bhakti, the devotion. Before the appear- ance of “I-am-ness,” where is the devotion? V: Ihave a question. Mz: I have not heard anyone starting questions. I gave you special time for that but you did not speak up. Whatever you have heard applies to you totally and exclusively. Accept that fully. The state you were in before you embraced the body as yourself, that state is the guru of all gurus. That is the Brabman—not even the Brahman, it is the Parabrabman only. Subsequent- ly, you began to fall into grosser states and finally you embraced the body as yourself. Before you occurred to yourself as “I am,” you were in the highest state— the guru of the gurus—the Parabrabman state. Later on you started filling up with all kinds of grosser mat-98 . The Experience of Nothingness ters, and you came down to the body sense—“I am the body.” So all these impurities have to be removed. Until then, you have to stay put in quietude. Your fall started with the appearance of that being- ness, “I am.” With the appearance of this knowingness “I am,” the next fall was embracing the body as “I am.” And then you gathered so many things onto yourself. Hold on to the state of knowing yourself as “I am” as the truth. All the other things you have gath- ered to yourself are unreal. [To a particular visitor] Presently, you are in qui- etude, Is it on this side of sleep or on the other side? You are only the consciousness feeling the conscious- ness. Consciousness touches the consciousness. You are heading for that experience, known as death, of which you have heard. And you have to realize how that death experience is unreal. With all our experi- ence in the world, and notwithstanding all our strug- gles there, we are heading only towards the inevitability of death. But that death is unreal. If death were real, then the death of one animal would signify the end of the entire species. So long as the consciousness “I am” is not stimulat- ed into knowingness, there is no knowingness at all. That very stimulus, that “I-am-ness,” is the source of the entire manifest world of yours. In the absence of the awakening of this “I-am-ness,” where is the ques- tion of “mine” and “thine”? Only after the appearance of “I-am-ness,” I and others come into play. Without this “I-am-ness,” there can be neither “I am” nor oth- ers. If you investigate this aspect of spirituality, then there is no question of birth and death. But if you don’t investigate this particular aspect, you remain involved in the cycle of birth and death.When Consciousness Manifests, Duality Appears - 99 V: If 1 know myself, if 1 realize myself, may there be a transformation in my worldly life? M: What do you mean by “worldly life” and what do you mean by “transformation”? Your worldly life is all your concept, is all your mind only. We are dealing with that principle which is prior to mind. This may be described by saying that you are putting on various shrouds. Before you knew yourself, that was your true state. The first shroud was that of “I-am-ness"; then you embraced the body as yourself, and then so many other shrouds. All these shrouds have to be pealed off, including “I-am-ness.” From the no-knowing state, the first veil I took was that of “I am.” That was formless, nameless. But I embraced the body: I got a form for myself, I got a name for myself. This was the fall. Therefore all sages advise: Give up the shackles of the body! “I am the body"—these are the shackles. Give them up. V: How to get rid of this body-mind sense? M: How to forget? Who remembers and who knows that he remembers and forgets? The one who knows the memory and non-memory states is bodiless; he is prior to body and mind. If you can imbibe totally the essence of what is being said right now, you will stabi- lize in the Parabrabman state only. You are not beginners in the sphere of spirituality. You have acquired a lot of spiritual wisdom. Now please ask questions. The one who distinguishes between different states—this is with body, that is bodiless, this is this, this is that—stands quite apart from all those things. And you are the one who distinguishes. You are the100 + The Experience of Nothingness one that is the purest, the most auspicious, the clean- est. Since that is your state, you are in a position to assess the quality of other states. With this under- standing, carry out your worldly life, family life, with full zeal. But the point is this: If you really understand and abide in what I say, naturally your desires and expectations will fall off. V: With the falling off of desires and attachments, there comes a feeling of not wanting to do anything... M: That leads to the Parabrabman state. What is the use to that state of all the ambitions, expectations, desires? What does it need? Nothing at all, for it is the perfect state. V: You get to the point that you don't care for any- thing anymore, neither the Brahman state nor any- thing. M: Yes. You won't care to know that you are the Brahman also in that state. Would you take delivery of this talk, accept all of this? V: A little! [laughter] I: It is not child’s play that he is talking about. V: There just seems to be a total disenchantment with the world. M: What do you mean by disenchantment? V: It comes as a preference for not wanting to beWhen Consciousness Manifests, Duality Appears - 101 here—“here” meaning “in the world.” M: It will happen only when you realize “I am not like this, not like that...,” if you eliminate everything. In that state, you will have no color, no design, no form, no name. Vv: Then, there is no longer any desire to practice spirituality either. M: That type of dispassion is called vairagya. Vairagya means no raga; raga means love, love to be. Love to be is also to be discarded. V: That brings along sadness. M: That is the emotional state...an aspect of the body-mind, this sadness. If you are not completely clear of this body-mind sense, the sadness is bound to be there. [To two visitors in particular] When nobody was here earlier, I gave both of you a very good opportunity to talk, and now you are itching to talk. V: May I talk now? M: You shut off all your questions by your previous statement that you had found your self. That means the object of your spiritual search has been reached. Please explain yourself in greater detail. Before you came here, what were you and after meeting me what are you? I would like to hear. V: Before I came here, everything seemed to go on in102 - The Experience of Nothingness here [pointing to ber head] and I looked at my body and thought of my body all the time; and I used to be concerned about money, very concerned...and also whether or not I would have a job. And sometimes I worked very hard to understand the “I am,” I read your books and listened to the teachings... tried very hard to stay in the “I am,” and I would meditate. M: And then? V: Then, I found myself here somehow, and I said “I am” and I knew it. M: You understood “you are”? What is the color of that, the design of that? What is the image of that? V: Nothing. M: Find it! Then keep quiet. V: [Unintelligible, about the need for disciplines] M: Until you meet your own self, “I am,” they [the disciplines] are all very necessary. Once you abide in your own self they are useless, for then you are no more the body and no longer concerned with all the disciplines pertaining to that body. V: What about sins and merits after abidance in my self? M: These are qualities related to the body-mind. So the moment you are no longer the body-mind, these qualities have no further scope with you. First of all, we condition ourselves into the body;When Consciousness Manifests, Duality Appears + 103 we indoctrinate ourselves with the idea “I am the body.” An example is the air. When the air comes into the body, it is called prana. It is conditioned by the body and confined to the body, Once it is disassociat- ed from the body, that vital breath or prana becomes manifest; it is the universal air. Not only universal air, it becomes the universal space also. So the space is not conditioned by the body. That air is not condi- tioned by the body. Similarly, your identity is not asso- ciated and limited by the body; therefore none of the conditionings of the body is binding on you. By your very nature, you are that dynamic, manifest con- sciousness only. No doubt it depends on this quality of “I-am-ness,” on the vital breath. The latter means air only—air functioning in the body. This air and the knowingness cause the “I-am-ness.” Out of prana grows the world; and world means the mind. All that construes “you.” So when the vital breath quits, there is no more “I-am- ness,” but the “I-am-ness” does not die off and remain like a dead body. V: What is liberation? M: When you are liberated from the body-mind sense, so that you are not the body-mind, that itself is liberation. My language may not satisfy you, but don't get upset by that. You should try to understand the meaning behind my words. When you are really liberated, when you firmly come to the conclusion “I am not the body, nor the vital breath,” the illumination is perfect. Are you the vital breath? Pay attention to the vital breath. Are you the language, because you can voice the language? Can you be the language? Similarly, I104 . The Experience of Nothingness lead you to consciousness. You are in a position to watch consciousness; therefore, you cannot be the consciousness. You must fully employ your faculty of discrimination and investigate, Before we are caught up with this body-mind sense, we are the Parabrahman only. But the moment this “I-am-ness” appears, we embrace this body-mind as ourself and then we are involved with all the con- cepts and all the problems of the world. That knowingness, that realization, has no color. For one who has realized all this, there is Brahman, the godly state, and the one who knows this godly state is the Parabrahman state. V: To one who knows the Brahman state, does the world still appear? M: When it is a qualitative “I-am-ness” state, the world is. Once this state is transcended, there is no world. In the “I-am-ness,” in the consciousness, the manifest world is there. In the “No-I-am-ness” state there is no world. The Knower of this “I-am-ness” state and the world...within that “Knower state,” there is no world. But in the “I-am-ness” state there is a world. V: But the Knower then knows the world, the Parabrahman knows the world? M: [Pointing to his cigarette lighter] You see, that flame is like “I-am-ness.” When the “I-am-ness” appears, the world also appears. You, like Parabrah- man, is watching that. When there is no flame, you see nothing. When the flame is there, “I-am-ness” has appeared, therefore the world has appeared.When Consciousness Manifests, Duality Appears - 105 V: So in Parabrabman, you can know both the world and no-world. M: Everything depends on the appearance of that consciousness. If that consciousness is there, then also witnessing of the world happens. If there is no consciousness, then there is no world. Why do you know anything right now? V: Because I am. M: Because of that “I-am-ness,” you know the world. A hundred years back, you did not know anything. Then you were the Parabrahman, because the “I-am- ness” was not yet there. V: Can't I still be the Parabrabman now? M: This is no joke, but you can become Parabrahman right now. Only, it is not a commodity that you can acquire. You, a hundred years ago, were the Parabrabman. Give me all the information about that state of a hun- dred years back. Focus your attention only on that consciousness “I am.” Don't be led astray by all the so-called spiritual disciplines and rigmaroles. V: Does this consciousness within the body have any- thing to do with the universal consciousness? M: One is the expression of the other. If the pulse were not there, could that which is considered the individual body do anything in the world? The life force, the breath, is the expression of the mind and the consciousness. When you talk of one, the others106 - The Experience of Nothingness have to be there. All the three are made one complex. Without one, the others can't work. Now, the difficul- ty arises because what this consciousness is is at once the universal consciousness—that is, the feeling of Presence, “I am Presence”—not: I] am present or you are present or he is present. But unfortunately, the identification is with the body and I am not the Whole but a divisible part of the Whole. And therefore one thinks in terms of acquiring something. But when one sees the situation as it really is, that no individual is involved, that what is present is Presence as a whole and merely the expression of the Absolute, then the moment this is perceived there is liberation. Libera- tion is nothing else than seeing this with full convic- tion, Vv: What is the relationship between consciousness and the body? M: The consciousness, in order to manifest itself, must have a form. And the form is the body, and the body is made up of the essence of the five elements, constituting the sustenance for the consciousness. Without sustenance in the form of the body, whichey- er body it may be—that of a worm, an insect or a human being—consciousness could not sustain itself; it is the food essence which sustains consciousness. Vv: If the various forms of manifestation are merely the expression of universal consciousness, why is there the feeling of individuality in different forms? Why should each form consider itself a separate one? M: As soon as that which is the unicity manifests itself, the very manifestation signifies duality. Mani-When Consciousness Manifests, Duality Appears - 107 festation means there has to be a subject and an object. Manifestation in space-time means divisibility. And it is the very nature of consciousness that as soon as it manifests itself, there are the opposites— evil/good, large/small, etc. From the moment the man- ifestation takes place, duality is its very nature and this must express itself. As soon as there is this mani- festation, there is the question of duality, even in the five elements: the air, fire and water are themselves opposites. So the manifestation itself means duality, If 1 say that I am ill, what does it mean really? For the sake of communication, one uses the word “I.” But strictly speaking, 1 have nothing to do with the form, The illness is on that because of which the form is made and is felt in the consciousness. And I am really neither the form nor the consciousness, which manifests itself in the form. But for the sake of com- munication, one says “I am ill,” “I am worse,” “I have grown weak” or “I have grown stronger,” but that is merely an expression of the change in the essence of the form. But growing weaker or stronger, undergoing illness or otherwise, has nothing to do with “I” as such, There are innumerable languages, not only among human beings but also among forms of being other than the human being. But that on which the language is based—that is, the mind and the consciousness— does not change. The conditioning which has taken place on that consciousness right from the beginning is the basis of the language of that particular form. Therefore, there are innumerable forms and any num- ber of languages. Now there is a very subtle point and analogy regarding the ordinary language which we know and the spiritual language which we do not yet know. That108 - The Experience of Nothingness to which one has been conditioned right from the beginning, that language does not need any special effort for anyone to learn. He or she gets used to it from early childhood, from the earliest conditioning. How? Through constant and consistent association. Similarly, if one has this constant and consistent asso- ciation with the jnanis, then that language which the jnani speaks and which would normally not be under- stood by people, will gradually be remembered and understood and become natural. Since when does one come to know the experience of suffering? Only since form was created out of the five elements and there was consciousness in that form. But what was the situation before the form was created and the consciousness came into it? One was unmanifest. One had no knowledge of one's existence; there was no question of any experience, and there- fore there was a state which was beyond the gross concept of happiness or unhappiness. That was the unicity when there was not even any question of hay- ing experience. In the unmanifest Absolute, there is no conscious- ness at all—consciousness of existence. So only when there is this universal consciousness manifesting itself in the various forms, and these forms possess the life force and are subject to the three gunas, can each form act through the life force according to the combination of these gunas. Each form acts according to its own nature. It is only when identification takes place, and I begin to think that I am acting, although it is only the combination of the three gunas that acts, that I assume quite unnecessarily the responsibilities and conse- quences of those actions, which properly are not mine at all. The actions would have taken place in any case,When Consciousness Manifests, Duality Appears - 109 depending on the three gunas’ and the life force. It is amazing, almost silly, that anyone could think that he or she is acting. This is what happens: The waking state, before the other gunas start, is from the sattva-guna; that is, total harmony. In that split second when one wakes up, there is total love, total kindness There is no question of self-is(h)-ness. So the waking state is of the quality of the satrva-guna; subsequently, there are the physical activities caused by necessities, nature and duties; these derive from the rajas-guna. All these activities take place by themselves, but one starts saying “I am doing this,” identifying and taking on the responsibilities—that is the work of the tamas- guna. 1 The three gunas—saitva (purity, clarity, harmony), rajas (passion, energy, activity) and tamas (inertia, resistance, darkness)—are the basic attributes or qualities that underlie and operate the world process, according to Hindu teachings.8. WHO Knows “Tuat I Am”? AHARARAJ: Take the case of someone who says, I don’t like what Maharaj is saying, so he gets up and walks out. What has happened? He has reacted to the meaning of a particular word or set of words which has come from the mind. So the mind says: I don’t like what is being said and that thought is converted into words. And again the mind takes the meaning of these words—that I don’t like this—and the action takes place of his walking out. If similarly, as the basis of all thought, one accepts some definite princi- ple, then all one’s future actions will be based on it. This firm base is the result of accepting the meaning of the word which has come from a particular thought. My guru told me that I am Parabrabman and nothing else. I have accepted that with great conviction and therefore whatever other things appear seem to me pal- pably false, At one stage for example I was extremely strong; fifteen or twenty years later I had to use a stick. And later on, even the stick becomes useless. So all these changes in the body are not mine. Whatever dis- ease has come, it refers to the area of body only. 111112 - The Experience of Nothingness All thoughts that come will be based on the firm primary thought “I am the Parabrabman.” Unless one adheres to this fundamental principle—and most of us don’t—we accept that we are the body and continue as such till our deaths. But if the guru’s words are accepted with total conviction, our entire destiny, our entire life, will be transformed. I am splitting off what you are in yourself from whatever thoughts that occur to you. I stated you are not the thoughts but that if you embrace the thoughts as yourself you actually become the thoughts. So I drive a wedge between you and those thoughts, between you and your assimilation of any thoughts or words. Earlier I had said that you become the sum total of all the thoughts and whatever meanings you attach to them. You are the victim of the thoughts, of the meaning of the words, which you entertain as “yours.” I gave you the example of that fellow who had accepted the meaning of the words “I have been offended,” had wholly swallowed the concept and so made it his own. In driving that wedge, I say “You are apart from thought or the meaning of the words.” What are satt- va-gund, rajas-guna, and tamas-guna? Sattva-guna is doing all the tricks, and you say “I am doing this,” you accept the actions of sattva-guna, rajas-guna and tamas-guna as your own! You are not that either. There is the example of the married woman who had been in the family way for three months, and some- body made a forecast that the fetus is that of a very great person, of the standing of Lord Bhagavan Sri Krishna. The child to be born will be as great or even superior to Lord Krishna. That concept or that thought is given. So this lady accepts the thought in toto; embracing the thought, its meaning, as herself,— Who Knows “That 1 Am’? - 113 the child must be born as great as Krishna. The sickness of which I am accused, of which my body is accused, is actually a great blessing, because it is not what I am. But it is also like that lady in the family way. I am also in the same state. That lady, because of the concept given to her, would indeed believe that her child is as great as Krishna. Similarly, my guru has given me this conception that I am the Parabrabman. So that is always there. So then what is the impact of this sickness? The sickness is going to deliver me into the Parabrabman state, because I have accepted Parabrahman as my real nature. I am the Parabrabman only! So this sickness is helping the delivery into the Parabrabman. Therefore, the culmi- nation of the sickness is Parabrabman. You are a slave to the meaning of words, to the meaning of the mind. Therefore, you are the victim of the mind. Who accepts this conviction? It is not the mind. The deep sense in you that “you are” must accept that you are the Parabrabman, not the mind. Don't be a slave to the meaning which the mind imposes on you. The culmination of that sickness in me is Parabrahman only, but for others having this sickness there will be panic that they are going to die. This is the normal concept of ordinary people. But for one who is firmly convinced that he is the Parabrabman—I would almost say, whatever the “self” is, that the self is convinced that it is Parabrabman—then the sickness is a bless- ing, because the sickness helps to deliver one into Parabrahman. Who has the knowledge “I am”? Somebody in you knows the knowledge “I am.” Who is it? It is very obvious that you know you are, but what or who is it that knows you are?114 - The Experience of Nothingness Visitor: I asked that question, too. Who knows I am? M: Am I to reply that you are sitting here? You know you are sitting here. And you are asking me! You must understand why I am asking this question. Unashamedly, you are asking me to reply to your question. INTERPRETER: You see, the point is we have to go to our very core; the whole idea is not to reply superfi- cially, So what is the point in asking others to reply to your question? V: Because it sounded like a rhetorical question. I: We are to be prior to “I-am-ness.” Then Maharaj want us to study ourselves and find out whatever it is. There may not be a verbal reply. At least we must try to understand what he is driving at. V: [understand that. SECOND Vistror: Is it pure awareness that knows “I am”? M: Yes, that’s right. Who can understand that illusory state? “I-am-ness” is illusory only. It is not a perfect state, it is illusion. Who knows the illusion? A non-illu- sory state only can know the illusory state. You are not wrong in your reply, but why did you say “pure” awareness? What is the necessity of your saying “pure? V: There was no necessity.Who Knows “ThatI Am”? + 115 M: “Awareness” means pure. Since awareness knows “I am,” it is other, it is more than “I am.” That is the highest; there is no gradation in awareness. In the Absolute, the Parabrahman state, there is no question of impure awareness or pure awareness. V: Is there love in pure awareness? M: No. What do you mean by “love”? What is your experience, your idea of love? V: Something much higher than the love that the mind and the body have. Something that is formless. M: Up to the state of beingness, “I-am-ness,” con- sciousness, there is the state of love. That love is the love to be. This “love to be” is not the perfect state but when transcended, it is the perfect state. No imper- fections! V: You say “up to the point of beingness,” is that when you are still in the Absolute? I: The no-being state is the Absolute, that is what you call pure awareness. Beingness is the feeling “I am.” That “I am” itself is love to be. I would like to be. I would love to perpetuate myself. V: And where is love? M: That is love. Consciousness itself is love. With consciousness, you would love to be. V: And in pure awareness?116 + The Experience of Nothingness M: There is no “I-am-ness,” there is no conscious- ness. V: And no love. M: In love to be you want to have something, right? Some desire is there, the love to continue to be. In the Parabrabman, there is no love to be, because it is a perfect state. V: What is the purpose, if the Absolute is up there? What is the purpose of the Absolute coming to birth in a form? M: Why do you ask such an elementary question? I will give some example. You want to go to a particular place, to visit. You are that need. Because of that need, you love to go. Love is the motive force; it moves you. Similarly, when you are beingness, the beingness wants to continue. It wants to continue in time and space. That is the state of love to be. So love is there only in the state of beingness. In the perfect state, that state does not want to become something other than what it is. Nor does it want to be. Therefore, that beingness is not there, the feeling of “I-am-ness” is not present, in the perfect state. Everything is complete. When your need is fulfilled, there is no more need, no more lack. There is no more movement. Love is also dissolved at that moment. Suppose you want to go to a place, some far-away station. You rush to the station to catch the train. Why are you rushing? Because you wish to reach your destination. Once you reach it, you don't rush anymore. You stay put in qui- etude. You forget the movement also; there is no moreWho Knows “That I Am”? » 117 rushing. Again, I am not addressing an individual or personality. I am addressing that final outcome of the five-elemental food essence, “I-am-ness.” You are not the personality or the individual. The quintessence of this food, which in turn is the outcome of the five-ele- mental play, is the taste “I am.” “I am” is not a person- ality nor an individual. For example, you want to employ a servant. And there is a very weak fellow whom you want to convert into a good servant. He is very weak and cannot per- form. So you bring him good food, good nourishment, and then he becomes stronger and steady. Then, final- ly, is it not the food that has made him into a good servant? The good quality of the food that you gave him is converted into service for you. Similarly, what are medicines? Is not medicine also a type of food? An antidote to a deficiency of a particular food in your body is administered in the form of medicine. There- fore, who is serving that servant? Is it not the food essence? And with respect to your own body, who is serving you? Is it not the food essence that is a good servant to you? Does all this knowledge that is exposed here con- fuse you? Normally, what is happening is that people assume themselves to be human forms, and they try to understand everything through the filter of that human form; they translate whatever I say into the mode of thinking of a human being, a personalized human being. That is the trouble. I am addressing that principle, that touch of “I am,” that consciousness, which is the product of the food essence body. [To a particular visitor] You are not yet very clear? V: 1 thought I was fairly clear; you can't really judge118 + The Experience of Nothingness me from what I say, What I say might belie my under- standing. M: You are of the firm conviction that you under- stood? V: No. There are certain things that one understands at certain levels, but from the totality nothing was understood. M: Did you say the highest level or the totality? V: Totality. M: What did you mean by “totality”? Vv: When one remains in the “I am,” there is no knowledge, no thought, no movement. M: When you are only being, are there no thoughts? V: No. M: The very consciousness is the potential for thought activity. V: There is a potential for thought, but if it is not exercised there is no thought. M: When the consciousness is there, thoughts will spontaneously come or they may not; you have no control over that whatsoever. It is exclusively the busi- ness of the consciousness to have thoughts or no thoughts.Who Knows “That 1 Am"? - 119 V: But we were talking about the universal conscious- ness as having no thoughts and no mentation. That being so, where then is the thought? If we are told to be and to remain in the “I am,” where then is the thought? M: Leave it for now and stop thinking... 3 M: What I am telling you, you are not in a position to understand, and what you are telling me, I don’t understand. So what is the use of more talk? V: Well, it wasn’t my intention to imply that I knew anything; I felt I knew a few things relativity-wise, but now I realize that I know nothing and that is due to Maharaj’s grace. M: Since you are talking from the standpoint that you understand nothing, still you are asking questions. So how am I to understand them? The type and the quality of questions which emerges from you indicates that you are not under- standing what I am driving at. The whole object of the dialogue is for you to understand what I am saying and that I understand what you are asking. If this is not the case, then what is the purpose of a dialogue at all? I am not well. I shall be talking only crisply and to the point. No digression. Many people have listened to my talks, have understood and have gone into qui- etude. If people cannot understand me, what can I do120 - The Experience of Nothingness about that? If my talks cannot be understood, it is no use attending them. This morning I asked a question: “Who knows I am?” And you asked me a counter question: “What should I understand by that?” May you keep quiet; don’t ask any further questions today. od M: In the morning, when you asked that question, I thought you were trying to be argumentative. V: I apologize for your feeling that way; my question in return to yours was perhaps facile; it was, however, not meant to be argumentative. I felt there was an answer to that question that I perhaps did not know. But in truth I did know the answer and I do under- stand what you have been saying. Yet at times, with the knowledge that is being absorbed one feels that one does not really understand after all, yet the knowl- edge is absorbed. Who is there to know? And that is all I wanted to convey. M: I felt as if you are trying to attack or challenge me by your questioning. You should be quiet; when there is no answer coming out of you, you should not ask me to reply, for that question was meant for you, for your opening up. Don’t ask questions for some time. Don’t ask any questions to challenge me. [To another visitor] Were you here in India earlier? V: This is my first time; three days in India.Who Knows “That 1Am"? - 121 M: You are already full of spiritual wisdom, you know a lot in spirituality, and I am in no position to address you. I am a pygmy before you. Do you have questions? [To a particular visitor] What happened to your question? V: I try to understand that level where there should be no more questions. Why should I come down to this level and put questions in this case? M: What happened to your question? V: They are in the beginning. But in the ultimate state, there are no questions, Why should I come down to a low level to ask questions? M: Who invited you to step down into questions? I: If you don't want to ask questions, what is the point of meeting him? M: In the morning I clearly told you, I am not addressing you as a person, as an individual. I am addressing you as the expression of the consciousness. In these dialogues, there is no question of I and you. This consciousness is the product of the food body essence and is talking to that expression of the con- sciousness. You always assume that whatever occurs to you is knowledge, but it is really a concept. True knowledge is beyond concept, prior to concept. The conceptless, wordless, speechless state is knowledge. The trouble is that a foreign concept occurs to you, you like it, then you give it a title, you remember the title and you call it “knowledge” and are satisfied with it. How can you speak or develop any concept unless122 - The Experience of Nothingness the primary concept “I am” is available? This primary concept begets further concepts; that is, all other con- cepts occur to it. We call it God, Ishvara and such names; and all that we call “knowledge.” This primary concept illuminates all those concepts which later become my knowledge. However, whatever concept occurs to you, including the primary concept “I am,” is not the eternal state. This primary concept occurred to you, then you called it Brahman, Ishvara. Because you like it, because you like to be, you give it these glorious names as mentioned. But with all that, it is still only a concept. Why is it not eternal? Because its very foun- dation is this food body only. So long as the food body is available in proper balance and proper condition, that “I-am-ness” or any other concept will be sus- tained. Now where is your sample available in this? It is not to be found in you as the Absolute. Only the sam- ple of the food essence in the form of “I-am-ness,” a touch of “I-am-ness,” is available. Iam telling you my story. And while I am narrating my story to you, it means that you are getting to know your own self. If you understand my story, you will also understand your own story. Abide in yourself, Actually Lord Krishna expounded his story; but he gave it the glorious name of Brahman vidya, the knowledge of Brahman. Can anything good or bad happen to the Brahman vidya, knowledge of the Self? Since nothing good or bad can happen to that Brab- man, that Parabrabman is known as nishkama, the desireless Parabrabman state. The knowledge of beingness, the knowledge of the self, is like the utility of an unborn child; it has absolutely no use. Similarly, this Brabman vidya in final analysis is of no use.Who Knows “That 1 Am"? - 123 Most of the so-called jnanis unjustifiably thought that they had the knowledge through certain concepts which they valued very much. They glorified the con- cepts by giving them various high-falutin names. And they hung on to those particular concepts as their creed, religion, or profound knowledge. Even this pri- mary concept, “I-am-ness,” is dishonest, just because it is still only a concept. Finally, one has to transcend that also and be in the nirvikalpa state, which means the concept-free state. Then you have no concept at all, not even of “I am.” In that state one does not know that one is. This state is known as Parabrabman: Brabman transcended. Brahman is manifest; Parabrab- man is beyond that, prior to that: the Absolute. Do you understand what I am driving at? Whatever you caught in your attention, that atten- tion should eventually turn into no-attention. The state that is finally left over is Awareness, Parabrab- man. I am addressing the consciousness. The instrument of consciousness for comprehension is attention. Any- thing is absorbed in the attention and whatever is real- ly understood goes through that attention, which itself is then dissolved into and as consciousness. So what remains? No concept is left. Thus, attention also turns into no-attention. With the arrival of consciousness, it occurs to you that you are; simultaneously, “I am” occurs to you or in your attention. So when the con- sciousness is not there, attention is also not there. Subsequent to the arrival of consciousness and atten- tion, everything else crept in. Now let us assume that through your attention you are able to embrace the entire manifest universe. When your consciousness is not there, where is that attention which embraced the entire universe? Therefore, the jnani—jnani is that124 + The Experience of Nothingness principle where there is no question of a person— transcends this “I-am-ness” state. It is the “no-I-am- ness” state. The jnani dismisses the consciousness. A jnani has no scope at all for any pride, because there are no props left for supporting his pride. The absolute state is prior to consciousness; it means the unborn state. Since the Parabrahman is the unborn state, prior to consciousness, can it have an iota of knowledge? An unborn child does not know of his existence. Similarly, the Parabrabman state does not know itself, that it is. My words are only rooted in the Absolute. You must be able to divine any meaning out of them. The principle that understands relationships and tries to understand, still exists in the realm of con- sciousness; it is in the realm of attention, But that to which it points has no attention in it. V: If you harness your attention, there is only silence. M: Up to the precipice of consciousness, into the abysmal depth. V: It is like drilling a hole in the desert, if water comes you don't have to do anything anymore. M: Whatever I say cannot be grasped by your intelli- gence. It is beyond the scope of the intellect. Every living being, every person, every species, tries to preserve itself. That is the work of the very life force. But have we any knowledge about that life force? This “I-am-ness,” the touch of the consciousness, will be sustained so long as this food essence quality is retained. Once that quality is gone, the consciousnessWho Knows “That 1 Am"? - 125 cannot be sustained. This is the product of the five- elemental play. I repeat, so long as that five-elemental food quintessence is available, the consciousness will be there. Once the quality is lost, the consciousness will also be lost. Is it possible for you to preserve the quality of these five elements perpetually? When you take this organic food essence, moisture must be present. And water is bound to dry up one day. Therefore, the food essence is also bound to dry up. and so consciousness is time-bound: eventually it will disappear. How can you retain that pride that I am like this? This “I am” business depends entirely on the food essence. So how can you retain it perpetual- ly—that I shall remain like this only? To extract any essence, water is very necessary, and the water quality is bound to dry up. At this point, if you want to ask anything, please go ahead. If you are in a position to dwell on this theme, about your identity, please speak up. I: I told Maharaj you know about Bhagavad Gita and so many scriptures. He says, all that is very interesting but you ought to remember what is the primary sup- port. You must be, must you not? V: I did not want to ask any questions. The knowl- edge of the scriptures has not brought about what we desire. For that, grace and satsang are vital. M: What is the meaning of the word “truth”? We understand what is unreal: that which is not going to last. But what is the meaning of “real”? What is the meaning of truth? It is whatever is eternal. Whatever we experience, including the beingness, is unreal because it is not going to last. These are all non-eter-126 - The Experience of Nothingness nal, and one experiences only non-eternal items. The knowledge “I am” is a primary concept and is also non-eternal. The One, the Absolute, which is eternal and aware, why should he worry about anybody else? Because in that state, whatever appearance takes place is That only. There is no other, so the question about any inquiry about others does not even arise. Eternal means: Now and for ever. When the state is now and for ever, why should one worry about any- thing else? Whatever is eternal is the truth. That state transcends knowledge and ignorance, so there is no scope for knowledge and also ignorance. You may call it jnana, you may give it a fancy title but actually it is beyond jnana and ajnana, knowledge and ignorance. It is a most fascinating state, radiant, brilliant, glo- rious—you can give it all sorts of titles. It is like the unborn child, the child of a barren woman. The truth is like that. The eternal is like that. The eternal means: the Unborn. V: Maharaj may have realized That, but how are we to realize that state? M: What do you mean by realizing that state? And what is that state? The child of a barren woman. ‘V: I meant that which is eternal and now, as you were saying. M: Yes, I said that about that state, brilliant, glori- ous, etc., but it is like the unborn child.o. CONSCIOUSNESS ITSELF IS THE SOURCE OF ILLUSION AHARAJ: That state referred to as the unborn J child, I have tried to describe it as brilliant, sted glorious, etc. but it is really mind-boggling; you can't try to use your mind or intelligence to understand it. Give it up! Don’t communicate all this to others, but you chase it, you pursue it and be that! Don't be lazy! How can anybody put questions on this thing, which is being discussed? It is nice to hear those particular words and statements, which “click” at that moment, giving momentary satisfaction, but this is something different; this is going to change you. Any experience or any satisfaction that you get is momentary, meant for that time only. Once that time is gone, the satisfaction is gone and everything is over, Vistror: Then what is permanent and how to achieve the permanent? M: Understand whatever is time-bound and elimi- nate all time-bound stages. The one who recognizes all these time-bound stages, that one is beyond time, is 129130 + The Experience of Nothingness prior to time. Stay put there. You can understand all these time-bound stages only from a pedestal which is not time-bound. Be there! V: How to reach it? M: Follow it up; there are no further words that can be applied to explain it further. V: By what means, rituals, or procedures can it be attained? M: Is it not beyond effort, beyond understanding? When you are the instrument of understanding, all sources of the intellect are kept aside. Whatever remains is that state. Presently, we are fully in the grasp of this beingness or consciousness. Conscious- ness is the product of this food essence body. Whatev- er occurs to this beingness is “knowledge,” maybe even profound knowledge, and we cling to that. But that is not the true knowledge. Beingness is the prod- uct of the food essence; it cannot be eternal knowl- edge because it is time-bound. Do you understand that? Don’t try to give thought after understanding a little bit of this. Try to absorb and imbibe this fully until you stabilize in your true Self. V: [have not understood myself fully, so the question of giving it up simply cannot arise. M: That “J-am-ness” is again the product of this food body. Where is the question of knowing that also? What you call “yourself,” or “you,” is the product of this food essence body. How can that beingness understand “you” the Truth, you the Absolute? To theConsciousness Itself is the Source of Ilusion - 131 ignorant one can give a talk depending heavily on spir- itual jargon about the Brahman, about this and that— all the stories. However, when it comes to yourself you must really understand the true Self. “You are alive” is a concept and it is false. In this body there is the principle which we know as “your- self." That principle has no form, but you understand that as the knowledge “I am.” We also call it the con- sciousness, the “I"-consciousness or the beingness. Now the various names are the names of this con- sciousness only; The consciousness gives rise to the world. The world is within that consciousness. Try to understand that. This is the only way to knowledge of the Self; through this consciousness you can know yourself, what you are. All other types of knowledge in the world are ways to enable you to earn a livelihood, to get money and live in the world. Otherwise, that is not knowledge at all. Knowledge of the Self is the only real knowledge. In the universal consciousness there are no individ- uals. We are looking at different forms, we give them names like man, God, donkey, and such. But ultimate- ly there is this consciousness only, the universal con- sciousness. And we should not identify ourselves as a separate entity, a separate body. We are that knowl- edge; it has no name or form. That is the essence of my teaching. Two college students had come here. I told them: Forget spirituality, follow your normal inclinations, tendencies, do your normal duties, just give up spiritu- ality. Why did I talk to them like this? I got involved in spirituality, in the business of spirituality; and finally I lost that love of the self also. I have no more love for the self. That is the reason.132 - The Experience of Nothingness A chief anchor for anybody is the love for the self, consciousness, the “I-love” state, the main bonding. I started spirituality in the name of self-knowing only, because I loved myself, I loved to be. And I wanted to know what is God. And to know that means spirituali- ty. So in this bargain I lost that; I am no longer fasci- nated by that love to be. Because that is the main bondage, the main condition, the “I-love.” So long as the vital breath operates, so long as the pulse will be beating, until then there is this love to be, until then there is the consciousness. When the vital breath quits the body, the pulse will stop and “I-am-ness” is no more. Since my love to be is now completely finished, exhausted, I have no more fascination for that state of “I-love.” Therefore, I have no more love for anybody. We normally involve ourselves in loving somebody else from the main standpoint that I love to be. I call this, our skull, an earthen pot. So long as this earthen pot is not properly baked, you have to collect knowledge from elsewhere. When it is properly baked and it sounds well, then you will be in a position to understand of what I am talking. But what will happen after you listen to my talks? The shell will burst; it will crack, Ritually, while cremating the body, the son has to light the fire; then we will take an earthen pot, full of water, and put that in a small hole we have made; and then he will move round that funeral pyre in a “wrong” direction. Normally, the direction is by keeping the object to the right, moving clockwise [that is, around a sacred object or location, Editor] but here the object is kept to the left, so he will be moving counter-clock- wise. And after some three perambulations, he will throw the mud pot at the back, not in front, and he will go on chanting,Consciousness Itself is the Source of Illusion + 133 So like that, when you come here, you will be cre- mating yourself. Whatever identity you have, whatever idea you have about your own self, will be cremated. Would you like this type of knowledge, which I am exposing here? This love to be, this consciousness, unsolicited, spontaneously, it has come—for no rea- son. And since then, it occupies itself with all activi- ties. All these worldly activities are only due to that, self-love, love to be. But self-love is not real. It cannot be eternal; it is a passing phase. All this knowledge, in final analysis, is of no use. Since you will liquidate that very consciousness, finally whatever you have heard here is of no use. Because only within the realm of consciousness is knowledge innocent. But having heard whatever I have said, if you retain it in your memory and because of your association with that knowledge, some new knowledge also will sprout in you. All this is of no use really. But it has one use: you will be able to parade your knowledge before the igno- rant masses, and you have a chance to become a guru. With whatever knowledge you originally had plus the knowledge you have heard, and the knowledge which has sprouted in you, when you finally under- stand and realize all that, you definitely will come to the conclusion that it is all unreal, of no use. Never- theless, having realized that, you will have a certain stature in spirituality and people will be flocking to you, listen to what you say. At that stage, whatever occurs to you, you can just blurt it out. Because for the ignorant masses that will be profound knowledge. But in this bargain, what will happen is that you will be elevated to a very high stature, as a guru. So beware of that. The main capital, the only primary capital that any- body has, is only this: deep sleep, waking state and134 - The Experience of Nothingness that little touch of “I-am-ness,” questions here? nothing else. Any V: How does one link up with consciousness? M: How are you linked with sleep? V: That is a natural state. M: This is also natural. You are linked with con- sciousness as a natural state. V: How do you realize it? I have tried to be calm and listen to myself but it is in no way my natural state. M: Right now the body is real, the world is real for you. And you have now the waking state, deep sleep and the knowledge “I am.” How long is this going to remain true or real to you? Without this waking state, deep sleep and “I-am-ness” you are not there, nor the world, nor the body. How long were you associated with these three states? Right now you are fully asso- ciated with them. V: Looking at myself, all my life has been associated with those states. M: Are you sure? What do you mean by “my whole life”? “Life” means a certain life span, from one day to a hundred years. After a hundred years, no more asso- ciation of this. V: What I find difficult is to become detached from myself and see myself as an illusion.Consciousness Itself is the Source of Illusion - 135 M: That is because you have identified yourself with this body. “I am with the body.” That is why it is so difficult. Have you any other identity but for the body? V: Iam trying hard to detach myself. M: You must. But your true nature cannot be clasped or grasped. Whatever you catch hold of cannot be real. V: How do you get to the true nature? M: Once you reject what you are not, whatever final- ly remains, the leftover, is yourself—your true nature. Presently, whatever you know is “I am.” This “I am” is the product of the five elements. Out of the ele- ments comes the food body and because of the food body, that “I-am-ness” is sustained. And you are also not that “I am.” “I am” is the taste, or the fragrance, of this food body. The ultimate “you” has no fra- grance, no taste, no touch of “I-am-ness.” V: But don’t we need the mind to turn us into an inner direction first? M: Yes, but before you start thinking of turning your mind inward, hold on to yourself whatever you are. You know you are. Just be there. eo136 - The Experience of Nothingness M: When you did not have the body, whatever you might have done, can you recollect anything? V: No. SECOND VisiroR: The scriptures say that we have our karma and our sins, and that is why we are here. M: That is for the ignorant masses. One who has realized the self-knowledge “I am,” for him these sto- ries are of no use. V: Is all this the concept of prarabdha? M: You are talking of destiny. What is the destiny of this? Destiny is like the lighter and the fuel contained in it. The five-elemental juice is the prarabdha, the des- tiny, Whatever it is that sustains the consciousness, that is the destiny. If you think you are interested in spirituality, I am dissuading you. If you follow any other vocation except spirituality, you have some hope that you will succeed sometime. But if you enter spiri- tuality, all your hopes will ultimately be shattered. You will be left with no hopes nor expectations. So I again advise you, don't jump into this spiritual thing. If you do that, you will be licking without a tongue; you will be left with nothing. You might even invite your own death; death will be there, death will meet you, you will be shivering in your shoes. Who is that recipient, intimate relation, who is going to receive all the sufferings? It is only that entity with three aspects—waking state, deep sleep and the knowing- ness—that is suffering or enjoying, What else have you? Just as hair grows out of your head, so all the mentalConsciousness Itself is the Source of Mlusion + 137 aspects or phenomena grow out of your consciousness. V: For the past ten years I have been reading and studying Ramana Maharshi and also Maurice Fryd- man. I have been talking to him; now I have a prob- lem as to which type of sadhana to pursue. And the feeling of fulfillment, clarity, has been eluding me. I am in a state of indecision to choose from among Ramana Maharshi, Maurice Frydman and Maharaj. M: I advise you to give up spirituality and follow your vocation. What is the sum total of the body of work, the conclusion of the thoughts, of the three men you have referred to? V: One has to gain confidence and make a decision and act according to the truth, which I am obviously unable to do because of my lack of confidence. M: To grow in self-confidence, hold on to your prima- ry capital that “you are.” “You are” means: waking state, deep sleep and the touch of “I-am-ness.” That is your primary capital, by which you know that you are. Hold on to that, abide therein, worship that as your only guru. In the absence of this triad—waking state, deep sleep and “J-am-ness”—what are you? What have you? V: Conflict of indecision. M: In the absence of the waking state, deep sleep and “I-am-ness,” have you anything? V: I think that is all. All the three we have.138 + The Experience of Nothingness M: The meaning of this triad is “you,” “you are,” your consciousness, the state “I love to be.” [To this particular visitor] Please continue, V: I want Maharaj’s blessing, and hope that I can go to Ramanashram for some time. There are two things that are trying to keep me back—in the sense that I must do this, must do that...my relatives and friends might feel bad about me, because I have been unsta- ble for the last fifteen years, and this year again Maharaj says that all hopes, all plans, all expectations will be shattered. So this will be one more shattering. But all the same, I want...let the shattering happen and let me be peaceable in Ramanashram, I want Maharaj’s support to move on. M: You are going to stay there permanently or you are going to retrace your steps? V: That I don’t know. I want to go all the same...one, two, three, four months. ..as long as possible. M: Eventually, you will find shelter and peace in no other ashram except your very own. That visranti—it means: ultimate relaxation—final abidance, will be available only in your ashram and nowhere else. The road is inward into your ashram. V: The real ashram within, I have yet to discover. M: The real, profound meaning of ashram is the firm conviction that I am. That is the inner abode. Where do we stay? We stay in the society of “I-am-ness” and in the house of “I-am-ness” only.Consciousness Itself is the Source of Illusion - 139 V: Why would the world be created as an illusion? It seems real to us but it is not. M: Nobody created it. Spontaneously it has come about. Prior to knowing this knowingness, “I-am- ness,” where is the illusion? Prior to the conscious- ness, where was the illusion? The primary illusion is only this knowingness “I am.” Prior to that there was no illusion. This very consciousness is the source of illusion. This illusion or consciousness or “I-am-ness” does not remain as something eternal. It is liberated; this non-eternal consciousness is liberated. When the knowingness is transformed into non-knowingness, that is the liberation. V: Our illusion in our present consciousness... M: The present consciousness itself is illusion. V: That is right. sciousness is time, Our illusion of the present con- it not? M: Take the example of the dream world. You have the feeling that you woke up. Actually you are in deep sleep, on the bed. You have the illusion that you woke up, and out of this illusion the dream world is born. Similarly, with this illusion. Although not in the wak- ing state, the apparent feeling that I woke up, that itself creates a dream world. Vv: How do you wake up then, out of this dream world? M: You have to go into quietude, you have to be still.140 - The Experience of Nothingness V: What do you look for when you are still? M: You must look at yourself. You meet the con- sciousness. Consciousness must look at the conscious- ness. “I-am-ness” must look at the “I-am-ness.” V: Where do you look? Is it in you, behind you? M: It is neither looking backward, forward, or upside down. Just be as you are. Just be! Do nothing. Although I am not very knowledgeable spiritually, I am posing very relevant questions. You assume that you are knowledgeable spiritually, but you are not able to ask very relevant questions. Anyone else who wants to talk? If anything occurs to you, please speak; but don’t just speak about irrele- vant things. If you are inclined toward social work, by all means follow that inclination. V: But as Maharaj has said, that if you follow the path of spirituality, all that you plan—social work, good works or whatever it is—outward-going, they will all be shattered. But I am asking, can the inward jour- ney and outward expression be done harmoniously? M: The mind flow is always external, never internal. In the inward journey of self-discovery, that external mind flow comes to a complete halt, So when you are going inward into yourself, you will not have the men- tal inclinations to flow outward, like doing social work, That is a natural corollary, It is possible to do both things simultaneously in some fashion, but when you are truly seriously going inward the mind flow stops altogether; there will be no more outgoing movement, Have you understood? So whether youConsciousness Itself is the Source of Illusion - 141 want to be preserved or perish, you must stick to your determination. V: 1 picked up from yesterday's conversation your advice that we must give up our self-love. Is that cor- rect? M: Some of us misunderstand. I knew they would. You see, the self-love is the one thing that is; I call it consciousness, the sense of existence, the sense that I am. And because that is, everything is. If one were not conscious, one would not see the world. So with this love for this beingness, one wants that consciousness, existence, to continue. So the love for this “I-am-ness” is the one thing which has to be there. But don't iden- tify that love with the body that you think you are. That is the one thing that exists. Not the self-love, that is the love for this beingness, that which gives one the sense of being, existing, I am. That love must be there, but don't... V: Not the love for the body. M: No, but that “I-am-ness” don’t let it identify itself with the body; that is nothing. What is this body? The body is nothing but good food, and the essence of that good food is the “I am,” and this body is the sustenance for this “I-am-ness,” this consciousness. If the body weren't there, the con- sciousness would not be there. So this consciousness needs the body, but it is not the body. That is the fun- damental understanding. It is a necessity. Keep one thing very clearly in mind: you are not God, you are not [the body which is] going to die. And, if people want to worship—and one must—one should142 - The Experience of Nothingness not worship anything that is foreign, as God. Worship as God that which came with you; to wit, this life force (the vital breath) and this consciousness together. That is the God anyone can know; any other God is alien to you. Then you worship the power which gives one sen- tience—the feeling, the Sense of existing. The body is merely the sustenance for this life force. See this life force cum consciousness as the supreme God. V: God is within you. M: God is within you, but I do not mean “within” lit- erally. That which exists in and of itself is God. Con- sciousness and the life force together, that is God. And that is one with the body, because the body is the sustenance for this consciousness and life force together; you can’t divide them. And then when a per- son is called dead, this is what happens: the life force within has gone out and merged with the air outside. That is all that has happened. What does one act on? One acts on the thought, which is produced by the mind. And what is mind? Mind is the working principle of this life force. The life force merely goes on. The Consciousness and the life force merely watch, The action takes place through the mind. Mind gives rise to thought, the thought is inter- preted, and then the action takes place. V: But the mind creates desires; and we should be careful of those, right? M: You cannot control them. All you can do is to purify this life force, and thereafter whatever is pro- duced by the life force are the thoughts and the desires. They may be better desires, So the only thingConsciousness Itself is the Source of Illusion - 143 one can do is to purify this life force. All our actions, the way the actions in the world go on, is on account of the mind. The mind creates the problems. Then the problems are converted into words and the words produce the actions. God's name is repeated in the mantra. The mantra refers to a particular thought and when that name is repeated constantly, the life force assumes the quali- ties of that on which the meditation takes place. So thereby the life force gets purified and becomes that on which the meditation takes place. V: So in order to purify the life force and the con- sciousness, is meditation necessary? : Meditation and repeating the name are both nec- essary but only for the limited purpose of purifying the life force. I repeat, that is no jnana. But for this purification, this is the means; and it has to be done. Whatever knowledge you gain refers only to that consciousness which is your birthright and with which anyone is born and which gives one’s sense of exis- tence. Knowledge is based on that consciousness. That is why I will not now let people stay on for a long time, because then the self is taken as their own. It is better that they listen and then go, and let that knowl- edge, with which they have been imbibed, work through the life force. The words are the language of the life force. Whatever words and actions take place, at their origin lies the life force. So it is essentially that life force which does everything in the world. Thus, the consciousness works through the life force; and the life force works through the mind and the word, which is the basis for all actions. Therefore, no individual has yet come into the picture, And when144 - The Experience of Nothingness this life force settles down into this consciousness, and therefore no longer works through the world, it settles down into what is generally known as samadhi because there is no objectivization. But if the life force and consciousness are present, then the world exists. If there is no life force and con- sciousness, the world does not exist. The world is a creation of only these two. People pray to God, but what is God? God is a cre- ation of this consciousness and life force—some con- cept to which people pray. Therefore, pray to that which creates the concept of God. Is there an evolution in man, as taught in science? M: Yes, you can accept it as a concept, But what you call man, a human being, what is that? And what is it in the presence of which there is a human being, and in the absence of which there is no human being? And what is it in the presence of which there is life and a human being can function, and in its absence you will say the man is dead? V: Consciousness. M: Consciousness, the life force. In the absence of the life force, consciousness is not there. V: Is consciousness evolving also? M: Consciousness is present throughout and mani- fests itself in various forms. The light that you see is itself the light of the consciousness. What is is con- sciousness and whatever is cannot be anything other than the consciousness.Consciousness Itself is the Source of Illusion + 145 V: Is this any different today than thousands of years ago? M: Give up this idea of individuality, and what is now has always been, thousands and millions of years ago. Eons ago and now what is still is, but give up the iden- tification with an individual. This “what is” will always be there. Give good attention to what is being said, hang on to it without any other concepts interfering, You used the word “science.” What do you really understand by that term? A study of what? V: Life and matter have regular patterns. There are tules of combinations and laws that we seem to live under; for example, the laws of physics that govern movement and the laws of chemistry that govern com- binations of different substances, and so on. Their study is what I understand by science. M: As I understand it, science is really nothing but analytical and a bent of mind towards research, maybe in regard of anything. A search born out of curiosity about something. I consider science as going deeper and deeper into the nature of a particular subject. How long can the best of scientists keep his life force going? Does he have any control over it? No one has control over his life force. The life force has come spontaneously, and it will go spontaneously. In deep sleep, consciousness is resting, but the life force goes on. At the end of life, the life force merges with the air outside but does not die.10. END SUFFERING BY STABILIZING IN THE STATE BEFORE WORDS AHARARAJ: The topic on which I talk, which is the discovery of one’s true nature, is extremely difficult; and what is my true nature is your true nature. The subject can see and think and analyze an object, but the subject cannot see itself; that is where the difficulty arises. The scientist can analyze an object. But how can he analyze his own being?? Visrror: But he analyzes himself as an object; sci- ence is the analysis of one object by another, without ever reaching the subject. M: I told you the scientist cannot make a discovery about himself. But the scientist can make a million discoveries about another object...What is a scientist? The scientist as such is only the essence of the food which he has eaten. So how can he do any research on the nature of that essence which he is? [From the point of view that only the greater, the more fundamental, can fully understand the lesser, Editor] The food essence 147148 + The Experience of Nothingness that is the scientist, when that is dried up, where is the scientist? From now on, I will give you only hints; so you bet- ter give full attention to those. And when I have given you those hints, I will pack you up so that you will have to work on your own. I will stop feeding people. One can only give directions. So on this matter, ask questions by all means; then you will get answers. But I am basing the questions not on your identity; other- wise, there will be trouble again, Vv: As I understand it, the quality of the conscious- ness is one; that is derived from the essence of the food substance. But the food substance itself cannot change the quality of the consciousness; it only sup- Ports it. Is that correct? M: Yes. This food, which supports the consciousness, is so small, infinitesimal in fact, that it cannot change anything about the consciousness, since consciousness is limitless. Therefore, how can there be any change in the nature or measurement of consciousness? Are you going to manufacture some questions? [laughter] V: The consciousness creates curiosity as well as other desires, and it creates the desire to know one- self. How do you separate one from another? M: What is that “you” that you are thinking of? Give me a sample of “you” when the life force and the con- sciousness are not there. Who is this “you,” other than the life force and the consciousness, who wants to do something? If you have some image about yourself other than the consciousness and the life force, giveStabilize in the State Before Words - 149 us an instance. Who is this who wants to do some- thing or other? The good and bad desires have sponta- neously arisen in consciousness. V: They create images of themselves. M: Who is this “who”? Other than the sum total of this consciousness and life force, there is no individ- ual, 3 M: You have to look for the ultimate meaning of yourself, Paramatman, but when you are identified with the body, you cannot find yourself. Ultimately the real Self is your true nature, and you are not the body. Your true nature cannot be known through the senses, but all the senses derive meaning from your true nature. Whatever is visible to you, has meaning because of that, the true reality. V: Certain things that you are saying have been recorded in the scriptures, the Upanishads and others. But at this moment, I am not interested in knowing that. My heart seems to have become sort of hungry for grace. There is a conflict in that some say you have to work hard yourself, you have to contain your sens- es, you have to bring your mind into focus and all that, you have to give up the habit of this and that. Others say that the company of saints—for example, when you sit in the company of Ramana Maharshi— will resolve everything. Hence, I seem to have come to Maharaj with the expectation that something may150 + The Experience of Nothingness happen out of the vibrations of this room. The mind expects that something will happen which dissolves all problems. M: If you understand whatever is being said here, then you get peace, satisfaction. But that satisfaction has no design in it. V: Iam still not clear. All the scriptures and saints, the advice, you have to put that first. You have to con- trol your mind. Suppose my mind wants to do some- thing. The sages say don’t run after the vagaries of the mind. Control your mind, close your eyes. Watch, watch your breath. As Maharaj explains, the state of “I-am-ness,” and all that. But mind seems to be lazy; it does not want to do that, it just wants the grace. So can I have this grace from Maharaj? I am helpless. Lazy and also restless. And here I come with an expectation that out of the vibrations and words from Maharaj, something should heal my mind, clarify my mind. M: These concepts which you have told us about just now, these are the concepts of a mumukshu, one who is desirous of liberation. That is the second stage. But when you come here, I tell you that you are not the body; you are the consciousness. Then you enter the third stage; that is called the sadhana. From the way you talk, I recognize that you are in the stage of a mumukshu, one who wants liberation but still identi- fies with the body. Have full faith in the guru, who tells you that you are not the body but are the consciousness, that “I’- love. So you are formless. When you are given the mantra, and you chant it, the meaning of that wordStabilize in the State Before Words - 151 becomes clear to you, slowly. In that state you don’t identify with the body but take yourself as the con- sciousness, which has no form. V: So it is necessary to take a mantra and to be initi- ated by that teacher? M: It is necessary and it is not necessary also, to get the initiation of a mantra. But by accepting a mantra from a guru, the meaning of that becomes one with your vital breath and the vital breath gets purified; and in turn you get purified and you become the meaning of that mantra. That means you are not the body form; you are the manifest principle. The vital breath is your expression, everything is formless. The sadbaka or the seeker who takes initiation from a guru is sustained by the body principle; he is not the body but he is that consciousness. The con- sciousness is sustained by the body principle. The sim- ple meaning of that mantra is the principle containing the body, the consciousness. I am that consciousness, the dynamic manifest principle Brahman, “I am,” which has no design, form or color. This consciousness is all powerful; whatever image or concept you hang on to it, its meaning will be deliv- ered into your consciousness and your consciousness will become that. V: Right now my consciousness is a bundle of suffer- ing, hankering for grace. My teacher tells me to accept a mantra, chant the mantra and become one with the consciousness of the mantra. But the mind is lazy, out of arrogance or whatever. Out of the habit of comparison: whether to take aid or not to take aid, whether to take it from this guru or that guru. That is152 + The Experience of Nothingness all part of the wavering mind. It does not want to accept or reject anybody. It just wants grace without putting in any effort, without paying any price. It wants a free gift. M: How dare you say it is idle or lazy? What the mind knows is out of the vital breath. Is the vital breath idle, lazy, or indulgent? Who told you that the mind is idle? V: I am saying it is both; it is lazy, it is greedy, M: That is the aspect of your body, not the mind. Can anything be as active as the mind? V: Mind is lazy and restless. It is restless after getting things from outside, material as well as spiritual, with- out paying the price for it. M: I am sitting here and my mind has gone to Poona. So how dare you call the mind inactive, indolent? You might say its activity is futile, but it is not lazy by any means, V: I am sorry, I have used the wrong word, What I would like to say instead of lazy, is that mind is greedy, it does not want to pay the price and wants the gift—the gift of grace. M: That is your concept, from the body-mind state. You are interpreting your mind through a body sense. Nothing is as active as the mind. Vv: But Maharaj has not answered my question. My question is: I want grace without paying the price. TheStabilize in the State Before Words » 153 end of suffering I want. Maharaj says: Take my mantra, meditate upon it, live with it...I don’t want all those things. M: Why did you come? V: Because I am suffering and I want the end of suf- fering. M: And why also did you pay the price of coming? V: That I can’t help. M: The basic advice for you is to give up spirituality, do some social work for the benefit of mankind. V: But I have the experience that doing social work is not possible for me without first ending my own suf- fering. M: You will see the end of your suffering provided you see you are That. V: Ihave been told that my mind, not the conscious- ness, is really made up of several parts—the physical part, the intellectual part, and the feelings or the emo- tional part. This is the current picture we have of our- selves. M: To produce the source of the mind, “I am,” you must have the ingredient of the five-elemental juice. If that is available, the sprouting of the mind can begin with “I am.” You know you are before even speaking the words “I am.” Subsequent to the knowingness “I am,” you say “I am” by words154 - The Experience of Nothingness V: But the “I am” lies behind what I currently see, and that is made up of desires from the other parts of my make-up M: Are you not even before you have spoken the words “I am”? V: Yes, of course. M: Stay put there only. There begins your spirituality, the foremost “you,” “I am,” without words, before the beginning of words. Be there. Out of that grows the experience “I am.” V: Then “I am” is the observer. “Being” is the observ- er, right? M: Witnessing happens to that principle which is prior to your saying the words “I am.” There is no such thing as deliberate witnessing. Witnessing just happens, by itself. You must also analyze “death,” the meaning of this common parlance. At the time that death occurs, the vital breath quits the body, gradually leaves the body. At the same time as the vital breath, the mind and the language also go out. Simultaneously, this quality of “I am,” this sattva-guna, the quality of beingness, also departs or goes into oblivion. Only I, the Absolute, remains. Stay put there only; nothing happens to I, the Absolute. Upon the so-called “death,” this sattva-guna, this quality of beingness, merges into the no-beingness state. There is no tangibility left for that “I-am-ness,” The feeling of “I-am-ness” is no longer there. It has become nirvana. There is no more sample of being-Stabilize in the State Before Words + 155 ness. So what happens to that quality of beingness? It merges into whatever the state that was there, which is the witnessing of the departure of the vital breath and this guna, this quality of beingness. It merges into the Absolute state. V: Does this happen with everyone, or just with those who realize “I am”? M: It happens in totality, for all. In that state, there is no accountability of “I-am-ness” also; so where is the question of “I” and others? In that state, into which the quality of beingness merges, there is no “I-am- ness.” So you can’t talk of others or the “I am.” To attend to this, you should meditate on the medi- tative state, you should not meditate on what is, but you should meditate on meditation. So when you real- ly meditate on the meditator, or on that meditative state, whatever is not fit for meditation will drop away. And only the meditator will remain without object for meditation. It is easy for anyone to meditate on what is, when that is an object. But it is difficult for one to meditate on oneself. The meditator cannot meditate on another meditator, if the latter is originally himself. But that is to be attained. In the process of meditation on the meditator, the meditation subsides; it is no longer meditation, it transcends meditation. If you are able to meditate on the meditator, on yourself, all the riddles will be solved for you, whatever they may be. Coming to the point, don’t be obsessed by what is. Meditate on the meditator. Presently, I am accused of a serious disease. I am investigating the nature of that disease and to whom is that disease. First of all, I start with the body, which is the five-elemental play. The latter is there, provided156 + The Experience of Nothingness the consciousness is there. I want to investigate, about this consciousness, which is sustained by the five-ele- mental body, would it have autonomy? As a result of this investigation, I find that this “I-am-ness,” which is the product of the five elements, does not have the exclusive authority to perpetuate itself. The sickness is subjected to this body, which again is the expression of the consciousness. This sickness has no tangible form; similarly, the consciousness has no tangible form. It does not have a permanent feature, it is only temporary; therefore, it is not the truth. The one who observes the consciousness is the truth. So he does with his abidance in the Absolute, who is in a position to observe all this play, all the unreality. And in that unreality, the sickness is happening. In that fashion, this entire show is eliminated as a big hoax, including the consciousness, the five-elemental world and the sickness. Therefore, the sickness has no real exis- tence, because this consciousness has no existence in reality. This is the way I dismiss my so-called sickness. Can anyone develop any concept in this fashion? Here is a particular example as to how I follow that course of the meditator meditating on the meditator. Don't give scope for worries to obsess you. When the medical consultant pronounced judgment of the ill- ness, he told me: You should take my treatment, although in spite of it certain symptoms will occur: “Blood will come out of your nose and throat, and what not.” So many things he said. The pain will be a little less, but all other things will take their course. So I said, no; in the next five months or so, nothing will happen to me. The original judgment was so serious that it would have depressed any patient. All the symptoms should have become apparent very soon.Stabilize in the State Before Words - 157 But so far nothing has happened. What is it due to? I was not meditating on the judgment of the doctor, I was meditating on the meditator. Therefore, so far there has been no effect of that judgment on me. Let anything happen in your body. But stay put in your confidence that you are the manifest Brahman or you are the Absolute. The ideal spiritual seeker must be independent of all external forces; he should not hold on to anyone's apron strings, but should depend only on himself. People are always taken for a ride. A certain con- cept is given to them and they hang on to it, for dear life. Then that concept comes to fruition and gives results. But that is an “objective” achievement and is not going to last long, Iam asking you to abide in your own self, this pri- mary concept that “you are”; you abide in that and see what happens. Are there any questions? 7 M: The memory of the body is not your identity; the knowledge “I am” is your present identity. Stabilize in it. From the bodily standpoint, you can talk a lot, thinking that it is knowledge but it is not. Vv: The problem stems from the other way. Maharaj says in his teaching: Stay with the “I-am-ness.” And I say that mind is restless; my mind is not capable of staying in this “I-am-ness.” M: With your understanding that you are the body,158 - The Experience of Nothingness the problem can never be solved. V: I know this and intellectually I can understand it, but actually I can’t help it. M: You are prior to your intelligence. Vv: I am not interested in any other statement that Maharaj is giving. M: Why don't you stop repeating the same thing? You are uttering words like an apprentice entering the spiritual trade. I want to convert you into an earnest seeker. V: There is the statement “God is all-pervasive, con- sciousness is all-pervasive; therefore, God is con- sciousness, to see God is to be God.” But I am not that. Is that correct? INTERPRETER: When you say, I am not that, Maharaj will ask you: What do you mean by “I am”? V: Neti-neti. [ Ed.: not this, not that] I: He will ask you, to which you refer when you say, I am not that. Which is that “I am”? V: One's source of consciousness. That's the thrust of my question. I: This “I am” is consciousness, is it not? V: Yes.Stabilize in the State Before Words - 159 I: And you say, consciousness is all-pervasive. God is all-pervasive. Therefore, God equals the conscious- ness, equals the “I am.” Now what is your question? V: The question was: “To see God, is to be God, but I am not that”"—is that a correct statement to make? M: You are correct. I need not go in upon that fur- ther. The way you understand is correct. Though gen- erally I am not being given to agree. Any further questions? I will explain why I am inclined not to agree with people. I will elaborate on that. You want to hang on to certain words; you interpret them in such a fashion, in your own words and you hang on to those words. You must remember that you are prior to the words; kill the words. Don't frame your knowledge, don’t condition it by words. Be prior to the words. I: I told Maharaj, now I understand why you always disagree with whatever we say, because he never wants us to stick to any words, any statement. He wants us to stabilize prior to words. That is why he always disengages us from the words to which we are clinging as our knowledge. He directs us to stabilize prior to words, that is very important. M: The disease has no name and form; it has no true foundation, because the “I am” also is an illusion. So you must always try to understand in this fashion: What is my true meaning? Your true meaning cannot be grasped or captured by any words. You can never be equated with any words, because you are prior to words. Words are subsequent to you.3 GLOSSARY advaita Vedanta teaching of non-duality ajnana_ lit.: “not knowing,” ignorance, spiritual unaware- ness; the opposite of jnana, knowledge atma(n) Self, the true spiritual Self, as opposed to the empirical self, the body-mind Brabman The Absolute; Ultimate Reality, the Self bribaspati lit.: “Lord of the immense magnitude,” in Hindu lore, the name of the guru of the gods; sometimes used by Maharaj to designate the human species buddbi intellectual faculty, power of discrimination; loosely, “mind” chetana consciousness darishma meaning of this word is obscure—Editor dbyana-yoga yoga of meditation gunas the three basic attributes or energetic/material qualities that underlie and operate the world process: 161162 - The Experience of Nothingness sattva (purity, clarity, harmony), rajas (passion, energy, activity) and tamas (inertia, resistance, darkness). Every- thing in the material universe is said to be made of of the three gunas in various proportions. Maharaj also uses the term guna in the general sense of basic quality, and in the sense of being. Ishvara God, the Supreme Being, Lord of the Universe japa the reciting of a name of God, a technique to quiet the mind and attain constant remembrance of God japi-tapi devotee who recites holy names and practices austerities jiva the individual soul, the ego jnana knowledge, more particularly spiritual knowledge jnani lit.: “knower’; realized sage madbyama middle stage in which the tangible formation of language begins manas mind maya the cosmic illusion, more particularly the pri- mordial illusion of identification with the body; the manifest dynamic principle that projects the cosmic illusion and conceals the transcendent unity mayatita the state prior to maya, the Absolute mumukshu one who aspires for liberation neti-neti “not this, not that,” an Upanishadic saying whose purport is that the supreme Brahman is beyond any attribute or quality, nirguna attributeless, non-qualitative state; without qualities; the Absolute, “Non-beingness”Glossary - 163 nirgunarajas without attributes or activity, having no qualities and no “beingness” nirguna-nirrajas same as nirgunarajas nirrajas without activity, having no trace of “beingness” nirvana state of non-identity or total transcendence of ego; the loss of the sense of “I~am-ness”; the Parabrahman; nirvikalpa a transcendent state from which, it is said, there is a no return to ego-consciousness; concept-free state nishkama the desireless state para the Supreme; the source of language; the Absolute Parabrahman the Highest, the Absolute; the state before space-time, before conception; the Unborn eternal principle, the state ‘other than’ (beyond) “I am” or beingness which is transitory Paramatman the Supreme Self; Parabrahman pashyanti the incipient stage of the manifestation of language prana the vital breath, life force prarabdha destiny that is already in motion, as opposed to the karma that is potential but will not manifest until future lives; the karma that determines the course of this present life prasad blessed food that has been spiritualized by its offering to a deity or guru puja ceremonial worship Tajas, rajas-guna energy, passion, dynamic quality; one of the three gunas sadhaka advanced seeker; spiritual aspirant164 - The Experience of Nothingness sadbana spiritual practice or discipline saguna, sagunabrahman with attributes samadhi lit.: “union with the Lord”; advanced stage of meditation, often described as trance-like satsang association with devotees of God or a saint, said to be of great spiritual benefit sattva, satva-guna consciousness; also seed-beingness; clarity, purity, harmony; one of the three gunas sver possibly from Sanskrit/Hindi word svar, sound, tone, meaning here uncertain—Editor tamas, tamas-guna inertia, resistance, darkness, ignorance. also the claiming of doership; one of the three gunas tapa the practice of austerities, usually of a spiritual nature vachaspati animal kingdom vaikhari final stage in the development of language vairagya dispassion, non-attachment vanaspati vegetable kingdom vidya knowledge visranti complete relaxation leading to total forgetfulness in meditationBIBLIOGRAPHY Balsekar, Ramesh S. Pointers from Nisargadatta. Bombay, India: Chetana; Durham, N.C.: The Acorn Press, 1982. Brent, Peter. Godmen of India. Harmondsworth, Middlesex, England: Penguin Books, 1972. Nisargadatta, Maharaj. I Am That: Talks with Sri Nisargadatta Mabaraj, Translated from the Marathi by Maurice Frydman, and edited by Sudhakar S, Dikshit. Bombay, India: Chetana; Durham, N.C.: The Acorn Press, 1994. . Consciousness and the Absolute. Edited by Jean Dunn. Durham, N.C.: The Acorn Press, 1994. . Prior to Consciousness. Edited by Jean Dunn. Durham, N.C.: The Acorn Press, second edition, 1990. ____. Seeds of Consciousness. Edited by Jean Dunn. Durham, N.C.: The Acorn Press, second edition, 1990. The Ultimate Medicine. Edited by Robert Powell. San Diego: Blue Dove Press, 1994 The Nectar of Immortality. Edited by Robert Powell. San Diego: Blue Dove Press, 1996 Powell, Robert. The Blissful Life. Durham, N.C.: The Acorn Press, 1984, . The Wisdom of Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj. San Diego: Blue Dove Press, 1995 Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj Presentation Volume: 1980. Bombay, India: Sri Nisargadatta Adhyatma Kendra, 1981. 165Other Titles from Blue Dove Press Messages of the sages and saints of all traditions The Ultimate Medicine Robert Powell, editor ISBN 1-884997-09-0 $14 The Nectar of Immortality Robert Powell, editor ISBN 1-884997-13-9 $14 Dialogues on Reality by Robert Powell ISBN 1-884997-16-3 $14 In Quest of God by Swami Ramdas ISBN 1-884997-01-5 $10.95 In the Vision of God -Vol. 1 by Swami Ramdas ISBN 1-884997-03-1 $14.95 In the Vision of God -Vol. II by Swami Ramdas ISBN 1-884997-05-8 $14.95 The Play of God by Devi Vanamali ISBN 1-884997-06-6 $19.95 Treasury of Spiritual Wisdom Andy Zubko, compiler ISBN 1-884997-10-4, 528 pages $19.95 Peace Pilgrim’s Wisdom Cheryl Canfield, compiler ISBN 1-884997-11-2 $14 Hearts on Fire by Stephen Wolinsky ISBN 1-884997-25-2 $14 Collision with the Infinite by Suzanne Segal ISBN 1-884997-27-9 price TBA (August 1996) The Way of the Human by Stephen Wolinsky ISBN 1-884997-26-0 $16.95 (August 1996) Available at fine bookstores or from: Blue Dove Press P. O. Box 261611 San Diego, CA 92196 telephone: (619)-271-0490Religion/Spirituality ISBN 1-884997-14-7 $14 “Nisargadatta Mabaraj is my greatest teacher. His words guide my writing, speaking and all of my relationships. The singular pursuit of the awakened person is to find that part of bimself or berself that cannot be destroyed by death. I know of no one who can aid you more on that journey than Nisargadatta Mabaraj. His wisdom guided me throughout the writing of Your Sacred Self.” —Dr. Wayne Dyer author of Your Erroneous Zones and Your Sacred Self “The Experience of Nothingness is another major contribution to a library of work by Nisargadatta Mabaraj. It truly points to the no-experience experience, the non-being being or no state which is beyond name and form, yet embraces us all.” —Dr. Stephen Wolinsky author of Hearts on Fire and The Way of the Human Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj (1897-1981), a revered master of the Tantric Nath lineage, is an inspiring example of an ordinary family man who attained complete realization of the Infinite. His words carry a rare potency that can jolt the listener or read- 88) cr into a profound sense of awareness, which at the same time signifies true freedom—the freedom from all fear and mental suffering. In this, the final volume of a trilogy published by Blue Dove Press, Nisargadatta clearly demonstrates that logic and spirituality do not necessarily stand in opposition to one another. In a chapter after which this book has been titled, Nisargadatta relentlessly pursues a logical argument with his visi- tor to its very end, showing that until there is transcendence of all thought, logic remains fully valid and should be pursued rigorously. “What do you understand by the word ‘dream’? How do you understand a dream? Is not the dream something like a drama, a play?...To one who really understands what has been said here, a dream is no different from what is seen in the waking state: both are plays of consciousness...We call one thing the waking state, another thing the dream...but in essence both are events happening in the consciousness and essentially they are not different.” —Sri Nisargadatta Mabaraj 51400 Ea Blue Dove Press P. O. Box 261611, San Diego, CA 92196 97818861997 143