July 29th

JDG

We are here with Norman Carol in his apartment in Wynnewood, PA on July 29, 2017. We have a great
virtuoso violinist and concertmaster of the Philadelphia Orchestra for nearly 30 years. Right Norman?

NC

That’s right John.

JDG

And he has many fond memories of his years with the Philadelphia Orchestra and conductor of a
number of symphonies around the country that he has had professional and personal relationships with
many of the guest musical artists of his day.

So, Norman, why don’t we begin with your parents and it was Max and Anna, correct?

NC

That’s right.

JDG

Your father came from the Ukraine?

NC

That’s right.

JDG

So, can you tell us a little about when he came to the United States?

NC

Well, he came to the United States with a maternal uncle of his. That’s why he adopted the name of his
uncle. He came here as a penniless 13 or 14-year-old and settled in Allentown, Pennsylvania where…

JDG

About when would that be?

NC

Oh my, probably the early 1920s I would imagine. And he always was a kind of a person who was
interested in learning things and much to our surprise, his family always used to call him “Doc”, short
name for “The doctor”, and we learned that he had been a Chiropractor. He always believed in taking
us if we had any aches or pains to a Chiropractor not knowing if they were going to break our bodies or
whatever it was. But, anyway, he married my mother who was born in the United States and both of
them were very interested in music, although, neither one of them played nor could my father even
read a note of music. But, yet he would buy recordings of symphonic works and put the recordings on
and he would stand in front of a mirror with a stick in his hand and start conducting the orchestra. He
always had a love affair and I dare say that when I eventually became Concert Master of the Philadelphia
Orchestra he never ever missed a single concert I was playing in and if that meant the orchestra would
repeat a program maybe 4 or 5 times a week, he would be at every performance. His true love in life
was music.
JDG

How did your parents meet each other?

NC

You know, I really don’t know. We tried to nail them down, I guess one thing led to another and
eventually they met and they became very much involved. They had two children. I have an older
sister, 3 years my senior. Their life revolved around the children.

JDG

Was your mother musical?

NC

No, neither one of them were musical. Somehow or other they got involved in going to lessons. My
mother would always take us on the buses, the trollies, to go to our music lessons. At the beginning,
because there were no such thing as babysitters in those days, I would always be dragged along to my
sister’s lessons. The violin teacher I guess saw another victim and I was the one that became involved
with the violin too.

JDG

So that was your sister Renee.

NC

Yes, Renee.

JDG

Your music teacher was named Ostrovsky.

NC

Yes, Ostrovsky. He was from the Germanic school. He taught lessons one right after another.
Eventually I guess he found that I was more or less talented. One of the difficult things was that after a
couple of years, my parents decided that I should have another teacher. That was when I got involved
with Sascha Jacobinoff who was really my most formative teacher.

JDG

When you were with your sister, were you just hanging along with her and going to her lessons and you
were hanging around and he decided to give you a lesson?

NC

As I say, he probably told my mother that he thought that I might be another interesting student so they
got me a violin too. When we got a little more advanced, they found Sascha Jacobinoff and both my
sister and I started taking lessons from him. I thought it was very interesting because most of our
lessons were on a Sunday afternoon. Besides being quite a violin teacher, he became a really close
family friend to where we never called him Mr. Jacobinoff, he was Uncle Sascha to both my sister and
myself. During our lessons, he would leave the room and, we didn’t realize it at the time, go to a radio
to follow the sports teams in Philadelphia, mainly the baseball teams. That is how I first got involved
and passionate about baseball and other sports was through Sascha Jacobinoff.

JDG
So Norman, do you remember picking up the violin and what it was like for the first time to playing the
notes and have an idea that this was perhaps something that would lead to a lifelong love affair or was it
something that developed slowly?

NC

I think that it developed slowly because at the age I started, I was about 6 years old at the time, I was
more interested in going out to play ball or whatever else happened to be happening in the
neighborhood. But it soon became apparent that I had more talent than they expected me to have.
Before I knew it, at the age of 9 I actually played a Mozart concerto with one of the amateur orchestras
in the area.

JDG

So, that was the WPA? (Workers Progress Administration)

NC

That right, it goes all the way back to FDR.

JDG

Did you have a love for the violin then? Did you realize the gift that you had to play this instrument?

NC

I think I must have had because I know that after a while some of my schoolmates realized that I had a
talent and I sort of used that to escape doing some of my homework. I would tell a couple of my
classmates that I needed time to practice and I would not have time to do my homework so they would
prepare my homework for me that I would turn in. As a kid, I learned early on that the violin would be a
way to get involved in other things other than just music.

JDG

Your father must have been just thrilled that he had this prodigy for a son.

NC

Well, I hate to use the term ‘Prodigy’, John, but I guess that is the category they thought I was in. He
was. His whole life revolved around our music lessons. As a matter of fact, I always teased my father
and said he should have been a publicity agent because he would always pull things out of his coat
pocket to show people what his children were able to accomplish. At the age of 13 my parents decided
that I had really come quite far enough along with Sascha Jacobinoff and that I should try out for Curtis
Institute. I was very fortunate enough to be able to go to Curtis. I guess most people do not realize that
you cannot pay to go to Curtis Institute. It is 100% free as far as tuition is concerned.

JDG

How exactly did that happen? Was it your father and Sascha? Was it your idea?

NC

I think that it was mainly my father because I did understand that later on that Sascha was quite upset
that after studying with him for 6-7 years that we were going to be leaving him. As I said, Sascha was
really like another member of our family. He was upset but then he realized after a while that this was
the best thing for me to be able to go to a school where I could get complete musical training, not only
in violin but in chamber music and orchestral work and harmony theories, solfeggio and everything
involved with music.

JDG (11:44)

It was your father’s idea for you to apply to Curtis?

NC

Yes

JDG

How did he present it to you? Was it something that you wanted to do?

NC

Well, he discussed it with me and said that if I really wanted to continue with being a violinist and the
best way to handle it to get the complete training was go to a school like Curtis. Not only that but to
study with one of the leading violinist of the day, Efrem Zimbalist. Efrem Zimbalist happened to be a
contemporary of Mischa Elman and Jascha Heifetz and all those big names.

JDG

What were your impressions when you first went to Curtis? What was it like being a new student there?

NC

Well, one of the things I remember was on the lower floor of Curtis Institute was where the practice
studios were and for the first week or month or so, I would go down there and I would hear these
unbelievable violin players, the sound coming out of their studios, and I thought, “Boy, this is some
pretty stiff competition. I had better know how to practice and practice the right way.” Of course, then
I became friends with a lot of the people, friendly competitors I would like to call them. One thing led
to another and before you know it, I was involved in all kinds of activities at Curtis.

I think that one of the things that was so beneficial being exposed to Curtis was that I was able to study
chamber music. The chamber music class was held by William Primrose who and at the time was
perhaps the foremost violist in the world. Not only did I learn so much from Primrose in his classes, we
also had a string class at Curtis that met once a week and this class was conducted by a very, very
famous oboist of all things. He was the long-time principle oboist of the Philadelphia Orchestra and his
name was Marcel Tabuteau. He came from France. Though he had been in this country for many years,
he still had a lot of problems speaking English. He would always tell his string class, “I know nothing
about string playing but I can teach you other things” and it turned out to be true. He was a remarkable
not only as a musician and oboist, but the way he was able to prepare the string works that we were
working on a given week… I must say that, I may be jumping ahead a little too much, but many, many
years later after I had graduated from Curtis and went into the professional world and when I eventually
returned to Philadelphia as concertmaster, that I also started to teach that very same string class that I
was a student of Tabuteau’s many, many years before. I had that class oh for maybe 40 years I guess
before I finally retired from the orchestra.

JDG

What did Tabuteau teach that you perpetuated in your class?

NC
Well one of the things that he talked about almost exclusively was phrasing, where a melody goes. In
other words, nothing is dormant, there is activity going on all the time. He had a way of expressing this
with sort of I guess you would call it a numbers system. If a phrase was going to a certain point, he
would say “one, one, two, two, three!” In other words, it would never be “one, two, two, three” but it
would be “one, one, two, two, three!”, always some kind of excitement in the phrase. Those of us who
were fortunate enough to have Tabuteau in class didn’t always quite understand what he meant by the
numbers but just the way he explained it by the activities with his hands, how he directed the class.

JDG

Did he use the oboe?

NC

No, never, ever used the oboe. At the time almost, any of the Curtis students who were interested in
going to Philadelphia Orchestra concerts were given free tickets to go to the Academy of Music and we
had the opportunity to not only study with Tabuteau, but to hear how he played in the orchestra. I
think that it described more in the way he played and the way he phrased than any of the number
system that he would use.

JDG

Can you explain a little more of the number system? Was it the actual count, the rhythmic count of the
phrase?

NC

Yes. But you know as I say none of us really understood the way he did that. It was always the
numbers, the higher the number the more intensity the phrase became. In other words, if I was to say
“Ya ya da da dee” you don’t just say “da, da, da, da” it is sort of a dead sound. Nothing was dead as far
as Tabuteau’s system was. So, instead it was “one, one, two, three!” And of course, he would go on and
in an extended phrase the numbers would get higher and higher and sometimes difficult to understand.
I think that what was so fascinating about studying at Curtis, I have been so often asked if I am giving a
lecture or a speech, who had the most influence on me as far as music is concerned. I point out two
people, neither were violinists, one was William Primrose, the violist, and the other by all means was
Marcel Tabuteau. I think you must understand that it was a different time. If we were walking down
the street and Tabuteau was walking toward us or on the other side of the street, to those of us
students who were so involved with him, it wasn’t just seeing Tabuteau walking down the street, it was
like seeing God walking down the street. I don’t know how else to describe it. We were in such envy
just having been involved with this man

D. G

So what were the relationships the students had with Tibuteau? Was it purely a student and teacher
relationship?

NC

Oh yes, absolutely, absolutely. You could never fool around with Tabuteau. Although, I don’t know
whether I should tell you this story. During my 4 years at Curtis in the classes under Tabuteau, one of
my jobs, we had a two-hour class with a 10-minute break in between, one of my responsibilities was to
get a tall glass of ice water for Tabuteau. He never left the podium. We could leave the studio where
we were practicing. Toward the end of the 3rd or 4th year, I was once again given the responsibility of
getting the glass of water for Tabuteau and a few of my classmates and I decided that we didn’t have
much to lose since we were going to be leaving at the end of the year, I got a bottle of gin. Don’t ask me
how. Instead of a glass of ice water at the break I gave Tabuteau this glass of gin. He sat there and as
usual, he gulped the whole thing down, never said a word, and just went along with the joke. Everyone
else in the class knew what was going on and we were a little hesitant on how the second half of the
lesson was going to go. However, he was quite friendly about it all.

JDG

Oh, that is so funny. Let’s go back to William Primrose. What was special about him and what he taught
you?

NC

Well first of all he knew the quartet repertoire backwards. Those of us that were in the class, we were
all the string players, and we were either assigned a certain quartet that we would play or a quintet,
whatever it might be, and whenever we came in and we had to perform for the class and Primrose, he
would know exactly every note in the quartet and what we had done wrong. Occasionally, he would
even grab the viola of one of the string players to demonstrate what exactly he meant. Just to see
someone like that…in those days Primrose was very active in playing recitals all over the world. Quite
often he would miss a class but when he was in town and he would play a recital either at the Academy
or wherever it might be, those of us who were interested would go to hear him play. Again, he a way of
expressing in his own way what phrasing was all about and how certain voices had to be louder than
others. I was very fortunate in having two people like that.

JDG

Let’s go back to talk about Efrem Zimbalist Sr. He did compose some pieces. Did you every play his
violin concerto or hear it?

NC

No, I am not aware that he did write a concerto. I know that he did some transcriptions of various
things that were rather extensive and some of us had to play those. He was out of the Russian school so
not only did you have to prepare for instance a Tchaikovsky concerto, but a concerto by a man by the
name of Conus, who was also Russian and Zimbalist knew as a student in Auer’s class in Russia. Another
thing about Zimbalist that was so interesting, when you would perform something for him, he would
never ever have you use the fingerings and the bowings that he would use. If it was something that he
saw that interested him or that upset him about your performance, he would either correct you or ask
why did you chose this way. I think that this was an interesting way of teaching the violin because so
often the teachers of today will give a piece of music to a student and it will be a transcription of all the
fingerings and the bowings that the teacher used and I don’t believe in teaching that way. I believe a
student has to learn how to think as far as bowings and fingerings are concerned.

Another thing about Zimbalist, you never had to be concerned about having an accompanist at the
lesson, in other words someone who could play the piano part, because he would sit at the piano
himself and, without music, he would play the piano part to either the concerto or the sonata that you
were playing. I found it quite remarkable that along with being a fabulous violinist, he could tickle the
ivories pretty good.

JDG

Zimbalist trained with Leopold Auer?

NC

Yup
JDG

So was there a Russian school for the violin that was different from …

NC

Oh, absolutely. You have to understand that Auer was the teacher of Milstein, Zimbalist, Heifetz, a
whole slew of famous violinists. Of course, they all came out of the Russian school. Auer actually came
to the States and taught here for a while. An interesting story that I may have already told you, John,
but is worth repeating, Auer was asked by some newspaper reporter if this violinist had studied with
him, like Milstein or Zimbalist, ‘Oh yes, he said”. And then he was asked about Heifetz, and he said no.
Yet everyone knew that Heifetz had studied with Leopold Auer. But Auer said no. So the reporter asked
him who Heifetz had studied with and Auer said, “he studied with God”. It was the greatest compliment
that anyone could ever give. Those of my generation not only called him the king but also the god of the
violin.

JDG

Was it the Tchaikovsky violin concerto the first one you learned at Curtis?

NC

Probably not. Probably a Mozart concerto or a Bach unaccompanied sonata. Zimbalist believed in
learning the 6 unaccompanied sonatas of Bach. To this day, 100 years later, I am still trying to learn how
to play those Bach sonatas. It is interesting because, although I am not performing any longer, I try to
practice every day and what do I start with every day? A movement of a Bach sonata. I don’t know,
maybe it has something to do with purifying the soul.

JDG

And Carl Flesch wrote scales for the violin, how did that work in your day?

NC

Well, we will have to go back to one of my first teachers, Sascha Jacobinoff, who studied with Flesch and
was an assistant of Flesch for a short period of time, and he did write a very famous book of etudes and
scales, when I say scales, I mean scales for single notes or double stops for triplets and whatever you
could imagine, he wrote a very, very fine book that I have students work on today.

JDG

For the piano, you had Eleanor Sokoloff.

NC

Well, yes. When you became a student at Curtis on any instrument or voice other than piano, the
person who taught what they called secondary piano was a woman by the name of Eleanor Sokoloff.
She was one of the first students when Curtis opened about 80 years ago. As a matter of fact, at the age
of 101 or 102, she is still teaching piano at Curtis. Now she teaches people who are primarily pianists. I
have always teased her over the years whenever I see her, I say to her “You know Eleanor, you have had
many students that are so successful, I always brag that I was one of your first failures.”

JDG

So when you look back on your years at Curtis, how do you see yourself developing as a musician and
your ambitions and goals of being a violinist?
NC

Well, I think that the best way to answer that, as per usual, my father had ideas that I should be a
concert violinist, in other words, a soloist. I didn’t realize at the time but when I was in my 3rd and 4th
and last year at Curtis, during the summer I went to Tanglewood which was run by the Boston
Symphony, and you always had to go into the orchestra there. After auditioning, I was given the
position of concert master in the student orchestra in both 1946 and 1947. Part of the job the Concert
Master had after playing there for 5-6 weeks during the summer, they asked me to play a concerto with
the student orchestra. And who was one of the people at the concert but Serge Koussevitzky, who was
a long-time famous conductor, music director, of the Boston Symphony and the one who was
responsible for starting Tanglewood. At the send of the Summer at Tanglewood, Koussevitzky asked me
to join the Boston Symphony. I had just graduated from Curtis and I was only 17. When I went home to
tell my parents, especially my father, about this invitation, he said “absolutely not. You are not going
into an orchestra now”. He still had ideas of me setting the world on fire as a soloist. So I had to tell
Koussevitzky that I could not join the Boston Symphony. A few weeks go by and I get another call from
Koussevitzky. “Would you like to change your mind?” In spite of what my father said, I decided that I
would accept the offer and I became a member of the Boston Symphony. My father was not very
pleased about it but upon thinking more about it, he decided I would be able to join a symphony and see
what the symphony world was like. I stayed there for three years and then decided to do other things.

JDG

So how did your mind process the idea of being a solo violinist to being a concertmaster?

NC

Well I really didn’t have the thoughts in my mind of becoming a concert master as a profession. During
the years that I was with Boston Symphony, I did play some solos. After I left I left the orchestra, I did
some concertizing. Then I got involved with the woman who would become my wife for only 63 years
and realized that perhaps a concert master would be the best way to go.

JDG

It also sounds like Koussevitzky was a force in your making your decision because he recognized your
talent and wanted you in Boston.

NC

Well, that is true. I was very fortunate because for the 3 years I was in Boston, I was a member of the
first violin section. In today’s orchestra world, you very rarely join an orchestra and go right into the first
violin section. I was fortunate because the Concert Master at the time was a man by the name of
Richard Burgin, a very famous Concert Master, who happened to be a contemporary of Heifetz. He and
Heifetz were very close friends, both studied with Auer at the same time. Just to watch the actions of
Burgin and what he did and so forth, I didn’t realize at the time but it sort of rubbed off on me because I
respected him so, I was fortunate enough to see him handle things in the orchestra. It served me well
down the line. Before you know it, there was an opening.

JDG

So Norman, in wrapping up the Curtis years, I just want to ask you if you remember certain pieces that
really provoked your passion and love for music. Were there any compositions that you fell in love
with?

NC
Well, I think to be a convincing performer you have to fall in love with whatever the piece is you are
playing at the time. There were probably pieces that if I did fall in love with, I fell out of love just as fast.
Like some works I’m not going to mention that I know that I was never…

JDG

Well, mention them, go ahead.

NC

I was never too happy, even in later years, having to perform a couple of the Bruckner symphonies I
might say. If I can tell you one quick story going back to my years in the Boston Symphony, I happened
to sit next to a gentleman who was a proper Bostonian, he was trained here in the United States, and
the very first time I not only heard but performed a Bruckner Symphony, at the first rehearsal after the
first few notes, this gentleman turns to me (I knew right away that he hated Bruckner) and he says
“Bruckner reminds me of a rainy day in the cemetery”. I have never forgotten that. Anyway, I shouldn’t
tell you that.

JDG

How about a Spring day on a mountain top, what about those pieces?

NC

Well there are so many wonderful pieces. When I look back on it and people may think my father may
have pushed me a bit too hard, but when I think that he was responsible for me having such a love affair
after all of these years. You know, some people may say to me, “haven’t you had enough of music?” I
only have one response. If you have a problem with drugs or alcohol, they can send you away for
treatment. But there is no place you can go if you’re are addicted to music. You are stuck with it your
whole life.

JDG

Well it is a cure for what ails you.

NC

Well that is for sure. You know John, you are addicted to music yourself.

JDG

So when you look back at the Curtis years and you grew up at the Strawberry mansion, was it West Oak
Lane?

NC

Ya

JDG

Is that where you grew up into your teens?

NC

Oh ya, ya. The one thing about going to Curtis that I was envious of, if you go to Curtis and you are from
Detroit or California, you have to find a place to live. Unfortunately, I could never really enjoy some of
the things Curtis students enjoyed because I had to go home at night. Not that I’m complaining now but
it is interesting how things work out for various people. To this very day, some of my closest friends are
people I used to play baseball in the streets of Philadelphia. Some of them because of me wound up
going to the Philadelphia Orchestra concerts.

JDG

You had a life outside of music?

NC

Yes. Sports has always been a strong passion of mine, especially baseball.

JDG

And the Phillies…

NC

Well I am suffering now because the Phillies are going through some terrible years but we have been to
the World Series so that is pretty good.

JDG

You were a Phillies fan while growing up? Did you go to the games?

NC

Yes, my father used to take me to ball games when I was a young kid. If I may tell you one story John. In
2008 the Phillies were a really hot team at the time and we ended up going to the World Series. The
Orchestra was asked to play the National Anthem before the game. Excuse me, this was 1993. The
Orchestra was asked to play the National Anthem before the game started and it was on a volunteer
basis only and, boy, I was really excited. The mayor at the time was Mayor Rendell who was very well
known in Democratic politics and we thought it would be a good idea if he conducted the National
Anthem. So, the president of the orchestra went to him to talk about it and he said, “No, people are
going to think that I am just doing this because of political reasons”.

So, the president came back and said, “Norman, I have a favor to ask of you. We spoke to Rendell and
he will not conduct the National Anthem. So, would you please go with me and we will talk to him once
again?”

Rendell said, “You know, there are people who think that I only will do this for political reasons and
besides which I don’t know the first thing about conducting.”

I said, “My Mayor, let me tell you something. We have professional conductors that come before the
orchestra who don’t know anything about conducting either. The orchestra will follow me anyway.” He
agreed to do the Anthem.

One of the thrills that I have had in my life and I have had many, my right foot was standing on home
plate. Is that insane or what? But that was one of the big thrills I have had in my life.

JDG

It is as good as it gets.

November 18th

JDG

So here we are. What day is it Norm?

NC

Saturday, November 18th

JDG

It is sort of a dreary day outside, a bit chilly. We just had some pizza and we are going to talk today
about the years leaving Philadelphia after Curtis and going to Boston. So how was it that you ended up
going to Boston?

NC

Well, the last two years I was at Curtis, I was 16 and 17 years old, and during the summers of those
years, I was fortunate enough to win a scholarship to go up to Tanglewood which is run by the Boston
Symphony. The great Serge Koussevitzky was the originator of Tanglewood. The second year I was
there, for some unknown reason they made me the Concert Master of the student orchestra. One of
the concerts I was asked to play a solo piece, I think it may have been the Lalo Symphonie Espagnole,
and of all people who came to the rehearsal and to the concert, was Serge Koussevitzky. He had a
chance to hear me play. When the Tanglewood season was about to end, Koussevitzky asked to see me
and wanted to know if I wanted to join the Boston Symphony. I said, “Well I don’t know. I may be too
young to join the Boston Symphony. I will have to ask discuss it with my parents”.

I went home and discussed it with my mother and father and my father said “absolutely not. You are
too young to go into the Boston Symphony. You need more experience.”

So, I said no to Koussevitzky. About two weeks later I got another call from Koussevitzky asking me if I
would change my mind. For the first time that I remember in my life I went against the wishes of my
parents and I decided to go and join the Boston Symphony. My father was very upset about it.
However, as we all looked back on it years later, it was perhaps the smartest thing I could have done
because in a period of 3 years you can learn a unbelievable amount of orchestral repertoire that you
wouldn’t normally learn any other way.

So, I went to Boston and lived there 3 years.

JDG

Tell us a little bit about the conflict with your dad. It must have been…

NC

Well, there was quite a conflict. Up until then, my father was so proud. Up until then, my father was so
proud that whenever anyone would meet him the first thing he would reach into his inner coat pocket
and pull out all the information relating to Normal Carol; every time he had played someplace and the
reviews. Well, anyway, they finally realized that this was the right thing to do. What was particularly
interesting was that the three years that I was in Boston were the last two years that Koussevitzky was
the music director and the 1st year that Charles Munch became the director. Now Charles Much was a
very famous French conductor at that time. To see what happened to an orchestra in that one-year
interim period when the members of an orchestra would never dare open their mouths at a rehearsal
with Koussevitzky but with Munch he almost encouraged people to talk all the time and whatever you
can imagine. One thing that stands out in my mind, I was asked not only to join the Boston Symphony,
but Koussevitzky wanted me in the first violin section which even today is almost unheard of. You know
you start in the second and work your way to the first. I sat next to an old gentleman, what you would
call a proper Bostonian, and to this day I remember his name. His last name was Pinfield and the very
first time that I not only got to hear a Bruckner Symphony let alone to play a Bruckner Symphony, I was
seated next to this Carlos Pinfield. Right in the middle of rehearsal he turned around to me and I have
never, ever forgotten this, he said “Bruckner reminds me of a rainy day in the cemetery”. I have never
forgotten that. I don’t know how many times I have played and how many Bruckner symphonies I have
played but I always remember Pinfield telling me about the rainy day in the cemetery. It is funny that
we are talking about this today because of the rainy day we are having.

JDG

So, Norm, when you made the decision to go to Boston by Koussevitzky’s invitation, he obviously
wanted you very much, what was going through your mind at 16 that you decided to take that career
path?

NC

Well, I had spent two summers at Tanglewood and you could say that I fell in love with Tanglewood as
most young musicians do. It is a most unusual place. One of the things that I do believe helped change
my mind was that part of the Tanglewood season which had to do with the entire Boston Symphony,
before the entire Boston Symphony gets up to Tanglewood, they have a series of what they call
Bach/Mozart weeks which only entails very few members of the Boston Symphony. So, when I knew
that Koussevitzky really wanted me to come up there, I was smart enough on my own to say to him,
“Maestro, I hope I will be able to play in the Bach/Mozart concerts.” Can you imagine a young fellow
like myself sitting with all of these elderly gentlemen with so much experience? He agreed to it so I
started out really, even before being a member of the Boston Symphony, doing the Bach/Mozart season
up at Tanglewood. I can only tell as many young people who may hear this how important it is to play as
much music as they can and have an interesting time while playing.

JDG

So, you got there and you played that season and how long were you in Boston?

NC

I was in Boston for 3 years. You have to understand that the thing that made this transition in my life
easier for my parents is that every month during the Boston Symphony season the Boston Symphony
would go to New York and we would play during that week in Washington, New York and Philadelphia.
So once a month I could go to my parents and say hello before I went on to my next stop so it wasn’t so
bad for my parents.

JDG

So, how did you decide to come back to Philadelphia?

NC

Well, I always thought it would be interesting to have a solo carrier. I think it was one of the things my
parents, especially my father, dreamt about. So, after three years I came back to Philadelphia and
started doing some concertizing. In the meantime, I had been signed up by an important manager at
the time to do some solo playing and that is what I did for a couple of years. Then I got grabbed by the
Army during the draft at that period of time.

JDG

Do you remember some of your solo concerts?

NC
Oh my goodness, I remember of all places playing…not only that but the year that I left Boston, the
Boston Symphony, was the year that Munch was there and Munch had heard all about me and asked
me to play for him, which I did. He promised me a solo date with the Boston Symphony which I had the
next year. I don’t remember what I played. Can you imagine leaving the Boston Symphony and getting
a solo date with them? I would play mostly these civic concert dates where people would pay a certain
amount of money and get X number of concerts for that amount. I managed to travel quite a bit during
that time. I remember playing in of all places Helena, Montana.

JDG

What did you prepare, what concertos did you particularly …

NC

Well, of course I would have a Mozart and certainly the Mendelsohn concerto. One of the things that I
always loved was the Lalo: Symphonie Espagnole which I guess eventually got me into the Boston
Symphony when Koussevitzky heard me. Every year you would constantly change the program you
were going to play and by the same token, learn new works.

JDG

Uh uh, and the Tchaikovsky…

NC

Oh yeah, and the Tchaikovsky…

JDG

Any Paganini?

NC

Yeah, I always managed to put one or two Paganini etudes on the program. This was when you were
doing solo recitals.

JDG

So how were you preparing them when you were playing with the Boston Symphony?

NC

Well you would always be practicing something. It isn’t a matter of really having to prepare them. As a
student at Curtis, all of us had to learn all the 24 of the Paganini caprices. Some we played better than
others. Some we hated more than others.

JDG

You were traveling all over the country and you had a manager that was doing your booking. Did that
just get old, all that traveling?

NC

Well, yeah it did get old. Even though I was enjoying it, I really thought that being a concert master of a
good orchestra was more important. One of the reasons why the 3 years I spent in Boston was so
important in my life was because the concert master during that time was a Russian violinist by the
name of Richard Burgin who was one of the sweetest individuals you would ever meet in your life. Not
realizing where my future was going to go, I would always watch him while I played in the orchestra to
see how he played and how he handled other people in the orchestra. Not that he was necessarily the
greatest violinist in the world, but he was just a very fine musician and people on the orchestra
respected him quite a bit. And incidentally he was a man that had the same teacher in Russia that the
famous Jascha Heifetz had. I could tell you a Heifetz story but maybe we need to keep that for another
day.

JDG

Tell us the Heifetz story.

NC

Well when I was still in Boston, I happened to meet a young lady who went to school in Boston and her
name was Josepha Heifetz. Josepha Heifetz happened to be the daughter of the famous Jascha Heifetz.
Now you need to understand my generation, Heifetz was more than God and king put together. He was
all of these things. If anyone talked about violin playing, Heifetz was always number 1. Anyway, Heifetz
was coming through Boston to play at a recital. His daughter asked me to go to the concert. She knew I
was a violinist. I said that would be wonderful. After the concert there was a party given by the local
presenter in Boston. Bear in mind I was still in the Boston Symphony. At the party, Heifetz was renown
for being a very fine ping-pong player or table tennis. Everybody who knew anything about Heifetz
knew he was a famous ping-pong player and of course I had heard about it because as a kid I was told I
was pretty good at it. Heifetz heard that in the house we were at there was a ping-pong table and he
wanted to know if anyone wanted to play. And I, especially in front of his daughter, wasn’t going to
challenge this guy. We all ended up in the upper floors and he started playing ping-pong with someone
that wasn’t very good at all, it was pretty bad. Maybe I was doing it to show off but his daughter said I
should play a game. Anyway..

JDG

You beat him?

NC

I beat him badly. Badly! 3 games in a row, alright. Now that may not have been the smartest thing to
do. It so happens that the following year Heifetz was going to be coming in to solo with the Boston
Symphony. I was still in the symphony. Heifetz came out on the stage, now you’ve got to bear in mind
that when Heifetz walks out on the stage, things are deadly silent because that is how highly we
regarded him. So, he comes out and on the stage and he looks around and he catches my eye and he
goes “mimicking a paddle back and forth” and he waves his hand back and for like a paddle and he
shakes his finger at me. I thought my life was over then.

JDG

Was the daughter happy that you beat her father?

NC

Well, as I later found out that Heifetz did not have the best life of all. He had a son and a daughter and
toward the end of his life he wasn’t speaking to either one of them. So it was an unfortunate thing.

JDG

Do you know how that happened?

NC
I really don’t. I really don’t.

JDG

You were in Boston and you came back and you toured. I guess the Korean War was heating up.

NC

Yes, it was and I was drafted in the Army.

JDG

How did you get that news?

NC

Very simple, you get a telegram. I thought that this really was the end of my parents because you know
the thought that I would end up in the Army after all that I had gone through. So as only the Army could
do, I had to register in Philadelphia. In Philadelphia, they put me on a bus and I ended up in Maryland at
Camp Meade. That wasn’t good enough and they put me on a train that took a kid from Philadelphia
and shipped me all the way out to California.

JDG

How did you feel about it?

NC

Well there wasn’t anything I could do about it. I thought my musical career was over. The Korean war
was going full blast at that point.

JDG

Were you despondent?

NC

Well, I wouldn’t say that I was despondent. But this was the first time in my life I didn’t have a violin.
You don’t report for duty carrying a violin.

JDG

So when you were recruited they knew that you were a professional musician. Did they say they were
going to make any…?

NC

They put me in the 6th Army Band which was in San Francisco, strangely enough. But I should tell you
something about my very first teacher, Sascha Jacobinoff. I knew that he had already moved out to
California and when I first wound up in Southern California, I called him because I knew he was living
there. The call may have cost me $.60 or $.70 cents and he told me that I was too far away but maybe
we could hook up another time. Then when I got transferred to the 6th Army Band, I called him again
and the call was maybe $.05, and I knew we were very close. So eventually, I was reunited with my very
first teacher and that was how indirectly I met my future bride to be.

The band didn’t know what in the world to do with me. I was the only string player in the band. The
only thing they could think to do with me was whenever there was going to be an inspection from
Washington of the band, my job was to take the mascot dog out for a walk. That was how they got rid
of me so that they wouldn’t see that there was one loose soldier hanging around. Things were
miserable there.

At the time Arthur Fiedler was very involved with the Boston Pops and knew me and when he heard I
was there he contacted me and wanted me to play a concerto. At the time he was also doing the San
Francisco Pops. He said, “Norman, there is only one stipulation. You have to play in uniform. Ok?”
That was the worst thing I could do because the band master and the whole band was invited to the
concert and there was a big cheer for me and when the band master saw what was happening, he must
have made up his mind that he needed to get rid of Carol. Carol couldn’t stay here. The next thing I
knew…

JDG

Why did he want to get rid of you? Was he jealous?

NC

I guess he was jealous but I didn’t ask any questions. They immediately had me transferred to
Letterman Army Hospital which was the hospital for the whole West Coast which was also in San
Francisco.

JDG

Do you remember what you played for Fiedler?

NC

Yes, I played the Mendelssohn Concerto. The whole hall was mobbed and not because of me but
because Fiedler was really popular at the time.

JDG

What was Fiedler like?

NC

Fiedler was Fiedler. He could be a very nasty guy but I must say he was always kind to me. He had a
tough time even when he was famous in Boston. But that is another story.

JDG

So, what story is that. How was he nasty?

NC

Well he was not the most talented conductor in the world. More than a few musicians made fun of him
than was really necessary.

JDG

It got under his skin?

NC

Oh yeah

JDG

He saw he had a real jewel.

NC

Well, he was able to have the honor of presenting me to San Francisco. It turned out to be the best
thing to happen to me because as I say I was involved with Elinor.

JDG

Elinor was there at the concert?

NC

Oh Yeah

JDG

Was that the first time she saw you?

NC

Well, it was the first time she saw me in a big performance like that. I had actually played some sonatas
with her mother who was quite an accomplished pianist.

JDG

Tell us how that came about.

NC

Well, so as I said my first violin teacher, Sascha Jacobinoff, winds up being very involved with San
Francisco and actually worked for my father-in-law who was a conductor. One thing led to another…

JDG

What do you mean one thing led to another…

NC

Well, I was at a party and she was there and it was the first time I saw her.

JDG

What was it like?

NC

Well, I can’t tell you what it was like (laughing). Put it this way, we were married for 63 years and it
couldn’t be any better than that. She just fit in perfectly in the kind of life that I eventually led.

JDG

So how did you meet at the party?

NC

As I said, her mother was there. Sascha suggested I bring my violin with me and I wound up playing.
Her mother would look at her and they were possibly thinking that he was pretty good.

JDG

She was your accompanist?

NC
No not really. We were just sitting and improvising.

JDG

What happened after the initial meeting?

NC

She as a rather interesting young gal, very attractive and new more than a little bit about music. The
funny part of it is she loved jazz. ‘Till the day she left us she could sing the lyrics to jazz songs like
nobody you have seen before.

JDG

Did you ask her out?

NC

Oh yes, many times.

JDG

From that party?

NC

Oh, I don’t remember exactly how it went. We eventually hooked up and I seemed to spend more time
at her house whenever I was free from the Army.

JDG

So that was fortuitous. Uncle Sam was..

NC

For sure.

JDG

So, she was at the Mendelssohn concert. What happened after that? You went to the hospital?

NC

Well, I continued my duties in the Army. I’ll tell you an interesting story. Does the name Chet Baker
mean anything to you?

JDG

No.

NC

Well, Chet Baker was perhaps the most talented flugelhorn player, actually a trumpet without valves,
that you have ever heard in your life. When I was still in the Army Band, whenever we were free at
night, we were allowed to put on our civilian clothes and leave the post. This one guy who was next to
me would sit on his cot all night long and whale away at me with some technique I had never heard in
my life. I had no idea who he was. Turned out his name was Chet Baker. One night when I came off of
duty I returned to the barracks and my clothes were missing. I went out with my uniform but when I
finally came back a few hours later, this Chet Baker comes back in wearing my civilian clothes. We had a
little to-do about it and he said, “Listen, it wasn’t any big deal. I guarantee I will be getting out to the
Army, I’ll be getting out on a Psycho discharge.”

I said, “Oh, that is very interesting.”

Within a week or two I was transferred to Letterman Hospital. One of my jobs there, believe it or not,
was distributing cigarettes to all the soldiers in the wards. Imagine, distributing cigarettes. I walk into
the psych ward and who do I see walking around barefoot smoking a cigarette? It was Chet Baker. He
gives me a big wink of the eye. I said this guy is going to be getting out.

Anyway, he became #1 in Down Beat Magazine. He was such an unbelievable talent. He hooked up
with a famous saxophonist, a Jerry Mulligan, and they became quite famous. They played all over the
place. Eventually life did not treat him very well and he got involved with drugs and he was gone. But
what a way to meet someone.

JDG

Were there any other famous musicians that you met during that time?

NC

Oh yes. I got very much involved with Andre’ Previn. Andre at the time was perhaps the youngest
musical producer of movies then. He went on to be a very, very famous composer and conductor. As a
matter of fact, eventually he even came to the Philadelphia Orchestra when I was there to perform and
record with us. We have had a long friendship. He has not been well for the last couple of years. He
was a very interesting fellow.

JDG

You were at the Letterman Hospital. What did you do there?

NC

Well, my main job, my official job was to sweep out the theater every morning. That was my job. Over
the years that we were there, Previn and I played at so many teas that the officers’ wives would have.
Also, at that time if you had less than 6 months to serve during the Korean War, they could not send you
overseas. Luckily, Previn and I were able to get to know the commanding officer’s wife pretty well. His
commanding officer’s name was Leonard Heaton and claim to fame was that he performed the ileitis
procedure on Eisenhower. I don’t know if you are old enough to remember that far back John. He was
a really very, very nice guy. Occasionally when they had nothing more to do with me and they needed a
driver, I was told to report to his office in the morning. When I got there one day, I heard this screaming
going on in General Heaton’s office. Evidently an inspection team from the medical department of the
Army had come from Washington to examine Letterman Hospital and as I stood there the doors all of
the sudden opened up and all these people came pouring out, one right after another, and I just sat
there with my hands in my lap. The last one to come out the door was General Heaton and I couldn’t
believe this even to this day, even with all of this screaming going on, he stops near me and he says,
“good morning Private Carol. How are you this morning?” I was thinking that the gentleman was not
only a General but a human being and I was lucky to have him on my side.

JDG

What was the screaming about?

NC

Well apparently, the inspection didn’t go so well.

JDG

Oh, he was screaming at them.

NC

Yeah. Well, so for 6 months, whenever we got orders to report to go overseas, every month both Carol
and Previn’s names showed up on the orders to Korea and every month we would call Mrs. Heaton. I
would say, “Mrs. Heaton, Private Carol calling. We are on order.” “Don’t worry about it.” and our
names would be removed again.

JDG

So, you had your 6 months. How did it wind up?

NC

Well we were both released from the Army. I do believe that they paid my fair to go home to
Philadelphia.

JDG

Did you propose to Elinor in San Francisco?

NC

Actually, we were already married by then in San Francisco. They said it would never last.

JDG

Who said that?

NC

I’m just kidding.

JDG

Your parents came out?

NC

Oh yeah, my whole family came out.

JDG

Tell us about your wedding.

NC

Well, all I remember about it is if you know anything about San Francisco, we were married at the
famous Mark Hopkins Hotel in San Francisco up on the hill. That was it.

JDG

Did you have a honeymoon?

NC

Yeah, yeah.

JDG
Did she have expectations of where you would go after the Army?

NC

Not really because New Orleans hadn’t happened yet but she was just agreeable to do anything, she
really was. Maybe I’m repeating myself but I could not have hoped to have had a better partner all the
way through as far as dealing with members of the board. I can’t begin to tell you how she and Muti
and Christina Muti, the four of us always had a ball together.

JDG

How did you transition out of the Army?

NC

Well it seems to me that I was going to start a career again when suddenly a very dear friend of mine let
me know that there was going to be an opening in the New Orleans Symphony. Oddly enough, the
conductor at the time by the name of Alexander Hilsburg, his background was that he was one of my
predecessors with the Philadelphia Orchestra. He was concert master going back I don’t know how
many years. He asked me to play for him and, boom, we ended up in New Orleans for 3 years.

JDG

So did you go to New Orleans to audition?

NC

Oh no, he was in the Philadelphia area if I remember correctly.

JDG

Oh, ok. you went down to New Orleans. How did you like New Orleans?

NC

Well Elinor loved New Orleans. She was crazy about it. I wasn’t so fond of it. First of all, it was so
humid. Wait, you were from there, right?

JDG

Yes, I was born there.

NC

Oh, oh, well, I better be careful. But I remember how humid it was down there all the time down there.

JDG

Where did you live?

NC

Such a place as Gentilly Boulevard? Was there a Gentilly Boulevard?

JDG

Was it in the Garden District?

NC

John, I can’t remember.

JDG

It wasn’t downtown?

NC

No, no. But for some reason or other during Mardi Gras season, the orchestra was on tour and Elinor
was down there. By this time, we had one daughter. She just loved it, you know catching as many
beads as you could.

JDG

Yeah, oh yeah. Do you remember your favorite restaurant?

NC

Commanders?

JDG

Commanders, oh yeah.

NC

There was another one…

JDG

Galatoire’s?

NC

Galatoire’s! I am amazed that I am remembering all that I am.

JDG

Did you live that far from Commanders?

NC

John, we are talking about 1957. Boy.

JDG

Right. So tell me about the orchestra?

NC

It was very interesting because Hilsburg, before he became conductor down there, he not only was
concert master but he taught at Curtis. He got to learn all the players, not only the string plays, by the
time I went down to New Orleans. The first clarinetist was a former Curtis kid, the first flute was a
former Curtis. He was able to get all these kids down there who eventually ended back with me in
Philadelphia. It was crazy. It is funny how things change in the music world. There was a time that if
you wanted to audition, for instance. When I was in New Orleans I heard that there was an opening in
the Minnesota Orchestra. The only way you could go to audition was you had to lie your way out of
town and your wife had to back you up. I had to call Hilsburg to tell him I was sick that morning. I flew
to Minneapolis, auditioned there and came back with the job. Today all these auditions are wide open
and they seem to encourage people to tell that they are going to audition at places.

JDG
Yes, it increases their worth.

NC

Could be, I guess.

JDG

So what was about Minnesota that …Dorati?

NC

Well, I had never met Dorati before but I knew all about him of course.

JDG

Is that how you pronounce his name?

NC

Dorati, Dorati, Antal Dorati. I guess I was in touch with the manager of Minnesota, Minneapolis in those
days. Dorati was going to be in New York and he wanted to know if I could fly up to NY to audition with
him.

JDG

Why was it that he was after you?

NC

Well, either I applied…I really don’t remember, or he heard of me. So, I went to New York. After I
played the usual Ein Heldenleben and Scheherazade and all the big solo stuff, he said, “You know, you
are going to have the job but would you mind, I have a couple of hours free now. I just happen to bring
some sonatas with me.”

Now, I have been around the block a few times by then. I was thinking that SOB, the audition is going to
continue now.

JDG

He is going to put you through your paces.

NC

So, some of the stuff I had already played and some I had not. I was always lucky enough to be a pretty
good sight reader. So, we spent maybe 2 or 2.5 hours and it was very enjoyable I must say, never
knowing that Dorati had already been fired from the Minneapolis Symphony. He had a run in with the
board. They were about to appoint Stanislaw Skrowaczewski. Do you know that name John?

JDG

Hmmmm

NC

I knew nothing about this. He did the same thing with a new first trumpet and a new first horn, all going
to be new the first year with Skrowaczewski. This was the way things were done in those days. Here I
was auditioning for a guy who wasn’t even going to be conducting.

JDG
He had the authority that he could do that.

NC

Yes, yes

JDG

So, you were never there when he was conducting.

NC

No, no. But I had played with him later on, forgot where now. You have to understand that when you
are in Philly for a long time, just about everybody, even John Gottsch, comes to conduct too.

JDG

So, it is quite a transition from New Orleans to Minneapolis.

NC

Oh yes it was. My Elinor, she went from a city she absolutely adored to a city she hated in the
beginning. But there is something about Midwesterners, they are just sensational. Not only that, she
got to a point where she was taking my kids skiing there every weekend there.

JDG

Well she was very adaptable.

NC

Ohh, yes

JDG

So, what were the years like as far as playing in the Symphony with Stanislaw?

NC

Well it was all Stanislaw and occasionally a guest conductor. I was very fortunate because we were able
to form something that was never done before, a Minnesota Symphony quartet. I must say that after a
while we did very well and were booked to play all over the place and made a lot of friends that way
too.

JDG

He wrote a concerto for you, didn’t he?

NC

Yes he did. Boy, you’re doing your homework. This was after I had been in Philly for a number of years.
It was Muti who gave the approval for that. Not only did I play it in Philly a number of times, but
wherever Stan was going to conduct if I was free from Philly, I would go and play with him. We even
went back and played it in St. Paul, Minnesota and Minneapolis.

JDG

Tell me about the piece.

NC
Well, I can hardly remember how it starts.

JDG

Did you like it?

NC

Very much. You know I kept…Stan and I were lucky that our wives just hit it off. As a matter of fact,
both Muti and Stan’s wives were named Christina. When we first got to Minnesota, Christina, they were
from Poland, was known as being not quite a racecar driver but almost knew how to put a car together
as she knew the mechanics of a car. The funny part of it is, both she and Elinor went to take their
drivers test in Minnesota for the first time and guess what? They both flunked the test! Oh, how we
used to tease them.

JDG

Well that parallel parking will get you every time.

February 10th

JDG

So here we are on September 10th

NC

How about February

JDG

You are sharper than I am. February 10th after the Eagles scored their magnificent win over the Patriots
to take the Super Bowl. We are all feeling pretty good in Philadelphia. We are going to resume our
conversation. The last time we talked about New Orleans and we got to Minneapolis. You were talking
about Antal Dorati and how he brought you in to audition, he brought out the sonatas that you played
for him and then he left after hiring you for the concert master. Then Stanislaw Skrowaczewski came in.
Why don’t you tell us a little bit about Stanislaw.

NC

Well, Skrowaczewski first came to the United States, he was brought over by the conductor of the
Cleveland Symphony, Szell. Szell Was very impressed with him and though he gave him a chance to
direct the Cleveland Symphony, that was about it. He then went back to Poland. I assume that Szell was
responsible for getting Skrowaczewski a manager here in the states and before you know it, he was
hired by the Minnesota Orchestra. I should say the Minneapolis Symphony because when I first went
there the name was Minneapolis Symphony. They have since changed the name against my wishes. He
became the music director in 1960. Though I was hired by Dorati, Stan never new me until we got to the
first rehearsal. It turns out he was an extremely talented conductor, one who loved to do Mahler. He
became quite popular. He remained as the conductor of the Minnesota Orchestra for about 20-25
years. Though I was only there for 6 years before I came to Philadelphia, it was a very interesting time
because he allowed us to form an all first chair string quartet which had a lot to do with, we believe,
improving the style of playing in the string section. We became very good friends. As a matter of fact,
after I came to Philadelphia, Ormandy, who was the music director in Philadelphia at the time, heard
about Skrowaczewski and asked me about him. I had nothing but positive things to say about him so
over time, whenever Ormandy was not available, maybe he got sick or something, they would call
Skrowaczewski last minute and he always did a good job. He even took the Philadelphia Orchestra on
tour on several occasions. His career really took off after he became the director there.

JDG

He was a composer also.

NC

Yes, he was a composer. It is very interesting because many years after I was in Philadelphia, I was able
to convince the then director, Riccardo Muti, to commission Stan to write a violin concerto for me. I was
so excited about that because I had never given a first performance of a brand-new work. You have to
understand that I was in Philadelphia at this time and Stan was still in Minnesota and I would call him
and I would say, “Stan, how are things going?!” I was so anxious.

He said, “I have good news and bad news”.

And I said, “Well, give me the good news first.”

He said, “I have finished the first movement.”

I said, “Oh, what is the bad news?”

He said, “I didn’t like it and I tore it up.”

So help me that is a true story. But finally, he did finish the concerto. I not only played it in Philadelphia
I don’t know how many times, we took it on tour. I went back to my old stomping grounds in Minnesota
and played it there and I played it with Stan in so many places. I don’t know what has happened with it
now, I don’t know if someone else has picked it up and played it. Of course, I don’t play anymore so I
don’t have to worry about it.

JDG

What do you remember about the piece?

NC

As I remember, it started out with a violin solo all alone. No accompanying with the orchestra. One of
the things many of my former colleagues were so happy about was that the orchestration had no violins
in it. There were only violas and all the winds. There was one place where there was such a very, very
loud sound coming from the percussion section. I remember a colleague of mine here in Philadelphia
when I was about to go out to do a performance of this concerto, he came up to me and he says,
“Norman, I want to tell you something. You know the place where all the percussion bangs real loud? I
want you to know that Stan came up with the idea to have a great big kind of a round dish in which
there would be water and there where we would be able to get a certain “wouwa” kind of a sound by
hitting it and putting an instrument in it. But”, he said, “I would like you to know that for this particular
performance I put a bunch of goldfish in the dish and when the “wouwa” sound comes, it means that all
of the goldfish have been killed.”

So, I said to this fellow, “How could you tell me this story when I am just about to go out and play this
piece? Couldn’t you have waited until I afterward?”

Anyway, this guy had a great sense of humor. I did realize that when I heard the sound, the poor
goldfish were no longer with us.

JDG
So, didn’t Stanislaw Skrowaczewski write you another piece?

NC

No, he had written several symphonies and works for orchestra that were really quite interesting. He
would usually do one of his works when he came to conduct the Philadelphia Orchestra when I was
here.

JDG

Ok, let’s turn our attention to Eugene Ormandy. Since we are talking about Minneapolis, there is a
confluence here where Eugene Ormandy had been in Minneapolis and so had you. So, Eugene
Ormandy, as you probably know, was born Jeno Blau.

NC

That’s right

JDG

Did he ever talk to you about his early years as a Hungarian?

NC

Not really. He did say that he used to be a violinist. It was rather obvious because occasionally he
would come up with an idea of a bowing or a certain kind of fingering and you knew that he knew how
to play the violin. I don’t really know how good he was. The story was that he was involved with an
orchestra in NY that used to play for the shows. He became the Concert Master for that orchestra and
on a sort of emergency basis, the conductor was not able to conduct so suddenly they gave Ormandy
the baton and that was the beginning of all the problems of him starting to conduct.

JDG

Was that Toscanini?

NC

No, no that was Erno Rapee I think was the name of that conductor. Ormandy was always fascinated by
Toscanini. It was very easy to see why because many of his gestures, the way he would hold his hand
against the lapel of his tuxedo, -

JDG

His right hand?

NC

His right hand usually, yeah. He was fascinated by Toscanini and why not. He learned so much form
him.

JDG

I have a note here that Toscanini became ill when he was to do a concert in Philadelphia and that
Eugene Ormandy was able to take over and that was his first time he conducted in Philadelphia
Orchestra in 1931.

NC

Yeah
JDG

And that led to his taking the conductor’s position in Minneapolis in 1931.

NC

That’s right.

JDG

Was there any influence that was left over when you…

NC

Not really. When you think that this happened in 1931 and I didn’t get there until 1960, nothing was left
over you might say. There were some members of the orchestra when I first came that remembered
Ormandy and they were very instrumental in talking about how important his tenure was there.

JDG

Right, and when he came to Philadelphia in 1936 after having been in Minneapolis for 5 years, Stokowski
was still the laureate conductor. Did he ever talk about Stokowski?

NC

Very, very little. In fact, I can hardly remember him mentioning Stokowski’s name. So little that I can
remember that it is hardly worth talking about. You know, Ormandy was very much his own man and he
knew how to run things. One of the things that stand out and people ask me why is it that the string
section of the Philadelphia Orchestra is so famous for their sound, there were several reasons. I think
that the number one reason was the particular string sound that Ormandy had in his own ear and how
he developed it. Another very important reason, Ormandy was responsible for the arrangement where
the members of the orchestra, if they found an instrument that they liked, they were be able to get an
interest free loan from the Philadelphia Orchestra to purchase the instrument and pay it back, without
interest, over the years. I think this had a great deal to do with the so-called Ormandy string sound
because of the quality of the instruments that we had.

JDG

I want to talk quite a bit about the Philadelphia sound as they say. Did it originate with Stokowski or do
you think it was…

NC

No, I think it had an awful lot to do with Stokowski. Stokowski of course had his own idea of what a
sound should be like. He even got to the point where he completely changed the seating arrangement
of the orchestra. You never knew who was going to sit where. In those days, there was not one Concert
Master, there could have been half a dozen. Stokowski, depending on the work, would point to
someone and they would have to play a solo even though they were not in the Concert Master chair.
That was the kind of thing he would do. He then would change the seating positions where the double
bases would sit in the orchestra. Things like that. He had his own ideas of what kind of sound and I think
Ormandy more or less just went along with whatever he found when he first got here.

JDG

Did he put the double basses behind the cellos?

NC
Ormandy did. Ormandy did. Yeah.

JDG

I am going to read an article from the New York Times from October, 1983. It says, “One orchestra
violinist recalls his first rehearsal under Ormandy in Philadelphia and remembers the pressure on the
bows all around him.” He said that he actually couldn’t hear himself playing. Was there something
about how the bowing was done…?

NC

There is a combination of two things when you talk about a string instrument. I don’t even know why
we call them a stringed instruments. I always called them ‘bowed’ instrument. The two things are the
pressure as was mentioned and the speed of how vast the bow goes up and down. The combination of
the pressure and speed is what makes the instrument sound the way it does. Every bowed play has his
own idea of how to use that.

JDG

Ok, was it the ‘pressure’ that this violinist who played in the orchestra reports in the article that gave
that sound that was sort of overwhelming that you almost couldn’t hear yourself play?

NC

Well, that was probably had to do especially if he was surrounded by a bunch players who did that kind
of thing and that is basically what Ormandy did. With Ormandy, the louder the better.

JDG

The louder in the string section?

NC

Yeah

JDG

So how would he direct that? What would he say?

NC

Well it is sort of became a thing that you didn’t have to be told it just automatically happened. When
you are a new player in the orchestra you very quickly see and hear how others are playing around you
as that gentleman’s comment indicated. When I came to the orchestra, I had an advantage because I
had played solo with the Philadelphia Orchestra on two or three occasions before I ever became a
member of the orchestra. I was fortunate because Ormandy had heard about me because I was a
student at Curtis and he asked me to come and play for him. He was pleased with what he heard and
was very helpful that way. So, when my time came for me to leave Minnesota and I auditioned for
Ormandy, my audition was almost routine because he knows my playing beforehand.

JDG

So, he did come under some criticism for the Philadelphia sound. One critic was Leonard Bernstein who
said that Eugene Ormandy, in a book “A Conversation with Lenny”, applies the same lush sound to every
piece he conducts. Was that a fair criticism?

NC
Well, in a way it is fair and unfair. When Muti came here as music director it was one of the things that
disturbed him, that the orchestra would play the same kind of style no matter if they were playing
Brahms or Mozart. He quickly changed that. Ormandy’s idea was that you don’t always have to have
the sweetest sound in the world as long as you have the biggest sound. When you start applying that to
Mozart, it doesn’t jive very well because Mozart for the most part requires a smooth kind of sound that
isn’t as lush as when you play Brahms. Ormandy felt like the louder the better and that is one of the
negative things people reacted to.

JDG

So Bernstein, among others, would say that Ormandy was great for the late romantics such as Ravel,
Tchaikovsky, Richard Strauss, Sibelius and Mahler but for Beethoven, Brahms, Haydn and Mozart, as you
were saying, that technique for the orchestra may not have been…

NC

Well, everyone has their own idea of what Mozart or Beethoven should sound like. In the final analysis,
it is really the conductor that makes the decision or the music director. Luckily, when Ormandy was
accused of applying the same kind of sound to all of the composers, whenever we had a conductor that
came through here even a guest conductor, it didn’t take us long to adjust to the sound that was
required by that particular guest conductor. I think that this is what happened when Muti first came
here as a guest conductor. He quickly heard rumors about Ormandy but Ormandy’s record speaks for
itself.

JDG

Yes. Muti has been reputed to have said that there is no Philadelphia sound. There is a Mozart sound, a
Haydn sound, a Tchaikovsky sound.

NC

That is true. I think a lot of it depends on how you were trained as a young student. I think that one of
the great advantages of students that went to Curtis Institute was that they were not only exposed to an
awful lot of the sound of the Philadelphia Orchestra can attain not only by attending concerts but by
playing in a student orchestra that is conducted by a member of the Philadelphia Orchestra. I know that
in my own particular case I was fortunate enough not only to have been a student and experience the
sound, but later on when I became a member of the faculty of Curtis for 40 years I was able to drum into
some of these students the idea of different sounds.

JDG

So, you came in 1965?

NC

Yeah

JDG

And then you had the trip to Japan?

NC

Yes. Are you going to ask me that story John?

JDG
Yes, I am going to ask you that story.

NC

Well, just in that very first trip to Japan, not only my first trip but the entire orchestra’s first trip, I was
about to go out on the stage to tune the orchestra and Ormandy made some comment to me that just
didn’t set very well with me. I went out and I was steaming all through the first half of the concert. As
soon as the intermission started, I ran off the stage and ran into Ormandy’s room. Ormandy always had
a bunch of people in his room, the more chaos the better he like it. The managers would be in there,
Mrs. Ormandy, the librarians and so forth. I said in a rather loud voice, “I want everyone out of the
room. I have to speak with the Maestro about something!” I very quickly had Ormandy against the wall
and I started yelling at him that if he ever dared to say something like that to me again he could find
himself another concert master. This was my first year in the orchestra! When I came out of the room, I
don’t know how many of the people were outside wanting to know what was going on, why I would
raise my voice like that. I said just forget about it. My wife happened to be along with me for that trip
and I said to her, “This is probably going to be the first and last trip to Japan because I am sure I won’t be
in the orchestra more than one year”.

Years later Ormandy never again said anything like that again to me. Despite what happened, I was
always very loyal to him. I defended him in many, many different ways. Some years later, long after I
had retired and Ormandy had died, I had to have surgery and I happened to be in a room at one of the
hospitals here. My wife was with me. There was a knock on the door and who comes walking in
carrying some flowers but Mrs. Ormandy. Bear in mind that Ormandy had long since passed away. We
had a nice visit and just before she was going to leave, she came up to me and whispered in my ear,
“Norman, tell me during our first trip to Japan, what happened between you and Gene that made you so
excited?”

I said, “You know, if Gene didn’t think it that important enough to tell you than I don’t think it that
important either. Why don’t we just forget about it.”

To this day no one will ever know what Ormandy said to me, not my wife nor my children and nobody
will ever know. Not even you, John. Sorry.

JDG

When you came out, what were you thinking when you were playing and how could you keep your
composure? Do you remember what you were playing?

NC

It was very difficult.

JDG

Do you know what you were playing?

NC

I certainly don’t. I hardly know how I tuned the violin to tell you the truth. It was enough that it just set
me … I had never ever faced anything like that before. Perhaps Ormandy was just testing me. I don’t
know. He learned and we got along famously after that.

JDG

That was probably why.

NC

Could be. As I said, not only was I loyal, I protected him in many different ways, especially toward the
end when he was hardly the Ormandy that we knew early on.

JDG

When you had him against the wall and you were laying the riot act on him, what did he say?

NC

He said nothing. He must have been thinking, “Why did I hire this cray man that I have in front of me?”

JDG

What was he like the next day?

NC

It was fine after that, it really was. I expected as I said, John, I told my wife I didn’t expect to last hear a
year. I never knew what was going to happen but after a while it became routine.

JDG

He was a bigger man for it.

NC

I guess he was. I guess he was. I think maybe he suspected that he never should have said that.
Whatever it was, as I said, I was very proud of the fact that I was able to the very end to help him get
through some concerts.

JDG

Do you remember some of the soloists with Maestro Ormandy?

NC

Oh there were some famous singers. There was a famous Elinor Steber who was a great Wagnerian
singer. Almost anyone who was famous during those times would play with us. It was not unusual to
have Heifetz practically every year or Nathan Milstein, the great violinist, and Claudio Arrau I remember.
You name them they were here.

JDG

Tell us about Claudio Arrau. You mentioned that he was a real gentleman.

NC

He really was an absolute gentleman. Whatever he requested always went through the conductor. He
was always a gentleman and it was a pleasure to have him.

I tell you that there was one soloist that we had here frequently was Nathan Milstein. He perhaps may
not have been the most famous violinist but certainly in that era he was. He would either in rehearsal or
in the middle of a concert intermission, he would take the violin out and start demonstrating things and
before you know it, the entire string section had him in a circle surrounding him as he showing all of
these tricks he could pull off on the violin. He was a very, very entertaining fellow in more ways than
one.

JDG
Was he like Paganini?

NC

Well, in a way he was like Paganini. There was something about him.

JDG

What kinds of things would he do?

NC

Well, he would show how a fancy way of doing bits of pizzicato with the fingers of your left hand instead
of just the right hand. He would just suddenly nock anything off like a Bach sonata or something. He
was very interesting.

JDG

Did Eugene Ormandy take you to China?

NC

Yes, the first trip in 1973.

JDG

How was that organized?

NC

Well, President Nixon and Kissinger had a lot to do with that. Once Ormandy heard that there was a
possibility that the orchestra would be able to go, he was relentless, from what I understood, in calling
either Nixon or Kissinger and asking when were we going.

JDG

How was the Philadelphia Orchestra chosen?

NC

I suppose that it had to do with Ormandy being with Nixon or something. I remember when Nixon was
going to be sworn in as the next president, there was a lot of unhappiness among the divisions about
the choice, something like we are living through right now. I think Nixon realized that perhaps he had a
friend in Ormandy and because the Philadelphia orchestra was invited to play at the [Inaugural] concert
during the first week of the new presidency, a lot of the members of the orchestra did not want to go
because of their political views.

JDG

Was it because Nixon was anti-communist?

NC

Well, whatever their reasons were. He didn’t have the greatest reputation in the world if you were
liberal leaning or something. Some of us in the orchestra thought it was a very important thing to do
and not because it was Nixon. I remember standing up once, not because I was Concert Master but
because it was something I believed in, and I said, “You know, we have been invited to play for the
President of the United States, not for Nixon. This is part of history and important.” And we did go.
I guess that Nixon may have heard about the dissention. It wasn’t long after that we were invited [to go
to China] because I guess Nixon felt secure enough to have this orchestra go. I think the thing that was
so interesting with Ormandy on that particular trip, bear in mind that he had a problem with his leg even
getting up on the podium early on, we had to do a lot of walking on that trip. One of the thrills when we
got there was to see the Great Wall and to see Ormandy in a way suffering going up and down these
hills to the wall to see what we wanted to see, I thought it interesting just for no other reason than to
have good will with the Chinese people.

JDG

Did you fly from New York City to Beijing?

NC

No, we flew to Alaska if I remember. I know we stopped there on the way back because we played a
concert there on the way back.

It was very interesting because we had heard all kinds of stories. We were briefed by some member of
the State Department before we left that we better bring soap, we better bring toilet paper. We didn’t
need any of that stuff. The Chinese had provided everything we needed. It was interesting because on
two occasions I was fortunate enough to be invited to small parties where Madame Mao was hostess.
When we played our first concert in China, the audience was very tepid. They hardly applauded. First of
all, we were told we were not allowed to play any Tchaikovsky, no Russian music. At the time China and
Russia you know... The second night, all of the sudden who appeared at the concert but Madame Mao.
When we finished the concert, she stood up and applauded and before you know it, the whole audience
exploded.

This is a great Ormandy story that I was witness to. We were invited to Madam Mao’s home or
whatever it was, maybe 3 or 4 members of the orchestra, including the Ormandy’s. Incidentally, my
wife was not with me on this trip. To this day, my wife has never forgiven the orchestra for not allowing
wives to go, or I should say the State Department would not allow wives to go. At this party, Madame
Mao came up to me with a package that looked like leaves to me. She said, in English, “I picked these
Acacia leaves from my garden this morning and I would appreciate if you would distribute these to the
members of the orchestra”. So, I had a job on my hands, ok? The next thing she did, she addressed
Ormandy in front of everyone, and she said “I was trying to find two books that I had in my library and I
was not able to find them. I’m dotty. I really wanted to give them to you.”

And Ormandy, instead of saying thank you, everything that Ormandy had up here came right out of his
mouth, he said, “Oh, well that is OK. When you find them, send them to me in Philadelphia.” Can you
imagine? I couple of us in the orchestra were doing the eyeball stuff that only Ormandy could get away
with this stuff.

JDG

Madame Mao’s English was pretty good.

NC

Well, you know. At the time she was like 5th in the command of the Country. Little would we know that
a few years later that she would end up in prison herself.

JDG

Cultural Revolution

NC
Yes, that is right

JDG

But Mao himself didn’t come?

NC

No, I think Mao may have been gone by then.

JDG

Were all of your concerts in Beijing?

NC

No, we played in Beijing and Shanghai.

JDG

Do you remember what you played?

NC

Oh, no I don’t. Oh, yes, I do remember! In China, whenever anyone composes something it was
composed by committee. In other words, you may have composed a part and another a different part
and you all collaborated. Someone or the group wrote a concerto called the Yellow River concerto. It
was played by some Chinese pianist. This was long before Lang Lang of course. We played that while
we were there.

JDG

It was a piano concerto?

NC

Yes

JDG

How was it?

NC

Well, you know, it was yellow enough.

JDG

Well, why don’t we conclude the story with the Ormandy and the Bartok.

NC

Well, toward the end of Ormandy’s life, he just didn’t want to give up the baton. It got to the point
where he would come walking out on the stage, I had to put my violin down to help him up on the
podium, we did a lot of the Bartok concerto for orchestra, and at the very end of the first movement the
time would change every measure, 5/8, 2/8, 4/8 over and over, Ormandy would never use the score and
he could never ever direct that section properly. So, we would close our eyes and blast through and
somehow we got through the last movement. The last concert, though we didn’t know at the time, that
Ormandy conducted us was a Carnegie Hall. After intermission, it was supposed to be the Bartok
concerto for orchestra. At intermission, I stopped in his room and I saw that they had him lying down on
the sofa and I didn’t think that he would ever come out again. The associate conductor was asked to put
his tails on in case he had to conduct the second half. I went out on the stage. In the meantime, the
librarian saw how bad Ormandy was and decided on his own to put the music stand out and open up the
score to the Bartok concerto. Ormandy came stumbling out somehow, I put my fiddle down and helped
him up on the podium, and he saw the score there, the score had a hard back to it, and he took the
cover of that score and he slammed it shut. John, it sounded like someone shot a gun in Carnegie Hall
that was how loud it was. He was so angry that anyone would put that score there. He shut the score
and we started the concerto. We got to that point where he could never conduct it properly and all of
the sudden it was like the guy upstairs grabbed ahold of his hands and he did it perfectly. You can just
imagine all of us looking at each other, “How did he ever do this? He is half dead up there.”

Well anyway, the concert was over and we all went back to Philly. I said to Elinor that I was sure that
this was the last time he would conduct again. Sure enough it was. But can you imagine that the very
last time, in a work that he messed up so often that you could rely on it, you know, that suddenly he did
it perfectly.

JDG

When he slammed the score shut, did the audience...?

NC

Well people had no idea what was going on until they heard this... They thought maybe it was a gun
shot. You can imagine that the people in the orchestra weren’t prepared for him to do this either.

It was times like that during the times when he could not get through certain very involved rhythms that
I kept saying to myself that they were not paying me enough for this job.

JDG

But he got that last Bartok rhythms.

NC

Yeah. But, you know besides his problems with some rhythmic patterns, no one could do Bartok like he
did. It was just something, maybe his Hungarian background.

March 9th

JDG

Now here we are with Norman Carol on March 9, 2018. We have had March come in like a lion with two
major storms. We have snow on the ground and we survived last Friday when we had hurricane winds.
We are nice and cozy in Norm’s apartment.

Tonight we are going to start off to talk about Roberto Muti. Norm, why don’t you start by telling us
how you first met Maestro.

NC

We had been on tour in Europe with Eugene Ormandy and we were playing in Florence. At intermission,
all of the sudden I as told to come to Ormandy’s room as soon as possible. I thought maybe he was
going to fire me after all of these years. I went to his room and I saw a young rather handsome young
man in the room with Ormandy. He said, “Norman, I want you to meet this gentleman. It so happened
that I went to a rehearsal that he was having this morning with an orchestra here and I was
tremendously impressed. His name is Riccardo Muti.” Ormandy kept praising this man. All I know is I
saw his pitch black hair and eyes that were like beams that went right through you. We had a small
chat. Before I realize what had happened, Ormandy had invited him to conduct the Philadelphia
Orchestra in a year or so. Now this goes back to about 1972 I guess it was. Before you know it, Muti
was one of our regular conductors. He made a tremendous impression on the orchestra the first time
he came. We saw that he was no phony. He really knew the music and he knew how to rehearse. What
was really impressive was, if you know about how the Italian musicians discuss phrases, they don’t use
a,b,c,d, it is do-re-me-fa-so-la-ti-do. I have never met anyone who can do the solfeggio as fast as Muti.
Even to this day he is doing the same thing. He keeps conducting us and kept coming back.

In 1980, Ormandy finally retired and we were looking for a new conductor. Ormandy pushed for Muti.
So Muti started with the Philadelphia Orchestra as the music director in 1980 and was here for 12 years.
He left in 1992.

It didn’t take long for us to become really, really close friends. There was nothing that I would hold back
from Muti. He was the same way. He loved to have times with off colored jokes and my wife was
known to have a good supply of these jokes. His wife would come with him from Ravenna in Italy which
was their home. She was a former singer. I believe that they met studying at the same conservatory in
Italy. Her name was Christina. She would come to rehearsals and during intermission she would come
back and tell Riccardo a couple of things that she heard that she thought might be interesting for him to
know. Then she would come to his concerts and during intermission she would come back during his
concerts. I was almost always in the room with her. She and my wife, Elinor, became like sisters. In
fact, Christina called Elinor her American sister. They went to all kinds of places together. You have to
understand that in those early days, although Riccardo started to learn English and did very well,
Christina knew very little English. They would go out to various places for lunch and such and Elinor
didn’t know what Christina was saying and Christina didn’t know what Elinor was saying.

I could sense when Muti wasn’t happy about something. One morning he asked me if I would have
lunch with him that day. I had a very, very strange feeling in my stomach. Before he had a chance to say
anything or even order lunch, I said, “Riccardo, I sense one shoe has dropped. Are you about to drop
another shoe?” He laughed. He then told me that he had made up his mind that this would be the last
season that he would be the music director. Well, my musical life and in a way my personal life really
fell apart then. People never accused me before but knowing the close relationship we had, some
people thought maybe I had falling in love with a man for the first time in my life.

He did come back a couple of times. I remember several very interesting things. He would take us on
tour for 3-4 weeks every spring. Once we went to Italy, bear in mind that Muti’s home town was
Naples, to do a concert. As usual, I came out to tune the orchestra. All of the sudden, Muti came out on
stage and I have never such a roar like thunder of applause. I’m not exaggerating when I say that it must
have last 5 minutes which is a long time on the stage. Every time the applause would start to ebb,
someone would yell out in Italian, “What took you so long for you to come back to Naples?” I’m not
exaggerating as someone in the orchestra timed it and it took 11-12 minutes and I was starting to think
that maybe we weren’t going to be doing a concert at all that evening. He was so famous in Italy, well
all over for that matter.

Over the years it was not unusual for my phone to ring and I would say hello.

“Ciao, Normando!” He would always say, “Ciao Normando!” and we would have a chat that would go on
and on. About 3-4 weeks ago my phone rang and I hear “Ciao Normando!” and we had a long
conversation, about 15 to 20 minutes, about what he was doing and about his children. He and
Christina have 3 children, two sons and a girl. The night that his youngest son, Domenico, was born,
Riccardo happened to be at our house for dinner. Christina did not travel with him on this trip. He says,
“You see what I have to go through in order to do music? I’m not even there for my wife.”
I have a funny story. When Ricarrdo first came here he took an apartment at the Academy House which
was right next to the Academy of Music. He knew nothing about cooking and he wanted to make some
eggs for himself, some scrambled eggs. What would he do? He called Christina in Italy to find out how
to cook eggs. Christina would tell us all of these crazy stories.

After our conversation a couple of weeks ago, we finally said good-bye. A minute later my phone rings
again and he says, “Normando, I forgot to tell you that I just had an asteroid named after me!” Now,
what do I know about asteroids. Anyway, he was so proud of that. I said, “Riccardo, is this why you
called back?” Mind you he was calling form Italy. That is the kind of relationship we have had over the
years. I don’t know many times that your friends and mine, Ben and Lorraine, would go with us to New
York when he was there with the Chicago Symphony or when he was doing an Opera at the
Metropolitan Opera House. It has been a very warm…

One thing that always amazed me about Muti, when he first came here and often he was, Elinor and I
took him to the Barnes Museum, for those that don’t know, the Barnes Museum is a famous museum
here that has at least 160 Renoirs alone, and it was amazing how he knew and understood art. It was
incredible. He would go from one place to another. We would take him to basketball games and ice
hockey games. He just wanted to be part of the community and he enjoyed going out.

JDG

There is a story that he wore a hockey jersey to one of concerts.

NC

Yeah.

JDG

Well apparently, he really admired and loved you too Norman. In his autobiography, “First the Music
and then the Words”, he talks about the first time he met you.

NC

Oh really?

JDG

Yes. He says that it was at a concert on October 27, 1972, where he conducted a Mozart symphony and
Prokofiev’s 3rd Symphony. He said, “The orchestra was astonished. Norman Carol, the Concert Master
First Violinist, came to my dressing room to inquire why an elegant, wonderful conductor like me after
doing Mozart, would then perform music as violent and aggressive as Prokofiev.” He said, “Norman
Carol was charismatic as the Concertmaster.” Do you remember when he said this about you?

NC

Oh yes, I used to question him about a lot of things. After a while, Christina would come with him from
Italy to the United States and occasionally he would bring one of his children. His oldest son, Francesco,
spoke absolutely no English at all. He brought him here and at rehearsal, he called me and asked if
Elinor would be able to take him around Philadelphia. Now Elinor did not understand a word of Italian
and Francesco not a word of English. Somehow they wound up going to an Italian restaurant for lunch,
Dante and Luigi’s, a famous place in South Philadelphia, and when he saw the menu he knew what to
order.

JDG
He was back home.

NC

Yeah.

JDG

Can we talk a little bit about the transition from Ormandy to Muti? The consensus was that Muti, who
really enjoyed Opera, especially Italian Opera, was felt to remain faithful to the intent of the composer.
It was said he was to uncover the true intentions of the works and the composer. Is that the feeling that
you had in comparison with Ormandy? How would that transition?

NC

With Ormandy, he always bragged about the Philadelphia sound. This orchestra was known for its
“Philadelphia Sound”. The problem with Ormandy was that Mozart, Brahms, Haydn, Beethoven
sounded the same with this Philadelphia Sound. As soon as Riccardo came here, he knew about the so
called Philadelphia Sound but to him and to most of us who were trained differently, when you played
Mozart it was one style and when you played Brahms it was another style and he kept pushing this into
the orchestra that they realize that we have to start learning to play differently now. He really owed his
thanks to Ormandy for pushing the board here to hire Muti as the conductor. He wasn’t saying anything
negatively toward Ormandy. He was just wanted to be as true to the music as he possibly could be.

JDG

Right. When Muti first heard the Philadelphia Orchestra under Eugene Ormandy, it was in 1971.
Eugene Ormandy with the Philadelphia Orchestra played Beethoven 7th. Muti remarked that the
orchestra had incredible precision and intonation, participation and the entrances were perfect. Not
one entrance was out of position. Obviously, he had a lot of respect for Ormandy. Do you remember
that concert? It was in Florence.

NC

That was the concert where I met him back stage.

JDG

Ormandy invited Muti as principal guest conductor. What would Muti do that was different let’s say
conducting Mozart and Beethoven?

NC

Well Mozart and Haydn is more or less, let us say, music on the lighter side. If you start playing Mozart
the same way you would play Tchaikovsky or Brahms, it is Mozart but it is a litter different Mozart. He
was adamant that we change the style and he was able to achieve that.

You know, whenever I would play solo with the orchestra under Muti, every year I would play
something, many of the times I would play a work that Muti didn’t know and had never heard. It was
very interesting because I noticed that he did this with other soloists whether it was opera or orchestra,
we would get together a day or so before, we would go in his room, and he knew how to take a score,
now you know a score could be like 15 or 20 different lines of all the instruments, and condense it on
the piano. He accused me over the years of being able to teach him concertos he had never heard or he
had never done. For example, I played the famous Glazunov concerto by a Russian composer. He had
never heard that. It happens to be one of the big repertoire pieces. In a way it was like a turn-around as
I was able to show him how the style of that work should have gone because I actually studied it with
Efrem Zimbalist who was a famous Russian violinist himself. He did this all of the time. He would always
want to get together and go through the score with people. Not too many conductors have the talent of
being able to reduce an entire score to two hands at the piano. I know of two other people that I
personally had dealings with who could do this. One was Andre Previn, who was a well-known pianist
and conductor, and Leonard Bernstein early in his career. To see Muti do this was amazing to me.

JDG

He said in his autobiography biography to your point about playing new music, he says that “A First
Violin”, he doesn’t name who it is, “in the Philadelphia Orchestra asked him, “Maestro, why is it that you
and Italian never do Respighi?” So, was that you?

NC

No. He did a lot of Respighi. We even recorded Respighi with him.

JDG

This was before he was doing Respighi and apparently someone asked him about Respighi.

NC

Ohhhh.

JDG

Was it you?

NC

No, I don’t think it was, no.

It is interesting because some of the things that we did that we never did under Ormandy was to have
performances of Opera without staging, just in the hall. To see the way he prepared the music before a
singer even walked on the stage because to him, like part of the quote in his book, the music comes
first. You could take a simple thing like ya-ta-ta-ta-ta ya-ta-ta-ta-ta which then would lead to some
singer. It was the way he insisted we play it that made all the difference in the world. It set up the
excitement for whatever was to follow.

JDG

What were some of the things that he instructed you to do?

NC

Well, it was the way you may play a repeated note, he instructed us to play it with excitement and so
forth. I never forget when we did the famous chorus from Nabucco “Va, Pensiero”. To me…I cry every
time I hear it. I really cried when Muti did it. I don’t know how many operas we did with him. It was
interesting to see how he dealt with famous singers like Pavarotti. Pavarotti, just off the record, was
scared to death of Muti. You know Pavarotti was known not to be able to ready one note of music. Are
you aware of that John?

JDG

No, no. So, why was he afraid of Muti?

NC
Well, because Muti would work with him. You know after a while if you get two Italians together you
are going have a little bit of an uproar.

JDG

Well, since you brought up “Va, Pensiero”, there is a famous story where at La Scala, Muti was
conducting Nabucco and after he played “Va, Pensiero”, he stopped the whole opera and made an
impassioned speech about supporting the arts in Italy. He was a very much a supporter of the Arts.

NC

Absolutely

JDG

He would do something that has never apparently been done before to make his point. Did he do
anything like that in Philadelphia?

NC

Well, he was very much aware of the political activities that were going on. He had Italy to compare it to
because Italy seemed to always be in an upheaval as far as what is going on politically. He would make
remarks. At the time when Muti first came here, we had a famous Mayor that was the former Police
Commissioner. His name was Frank Rizzo. I’m pronouncing it incorrectly because Rizzo was spelt R-I-Z-
Z-O. Ok?

JDG

Right

NC

The first time that Frank Rizzo came to a performance of the Philadelphia Orchestra, he came back stage
because he wanted to meet the famous Riccardo Muti. When he said his name, Muti looked at him and
asked, “You are Italian, yes?” Rizzo said yes. Muti says, “How can you pronounce your name Rizzo? You
know that in Italian it is Rrrrizzo.” He gave him a lesson right on the spot.

John, I remember over the years going in restaurants with him, just the two of us, and when we were on
tour we occasionally tried to find Italian restaurants. He would look at the menu and all of the words,
the Italian words, were spelt incorrectly. He would take out a pen and proceed to correct all the wrong
spelling.

JDG

Before we leave the works that Muti moved to conducting while in Philadelphia, apparently he
introduced Mahler and some of the later romantics. How did that go over in Philadelphia?

NC

It depends on which Mahler. We did record Mahler 1st a number of times. Another composer that he
introduced to the Philadelphia audience and we recorded were the Scriabin Symphonies which are as
tough as could be. He just had a feeling about these things. I sometimes used to tease him, I said “You
always put on a Scriabin on because it is full of violin solos and I have to work harder”. That was the
kind of connection we had.

JDG
Apparently, he also realized that having a set of Beethoven’s symphonies on CDs would be an important
work to have. So he did Beethoven’s complete symphony cycle.

NC

Well now I want to be careful how I say this. We did the regular ones all the time, the 5th the 7th, and a
few others and I kept needling him about when we were going to do all of the Beethoven. He kept
saying to me that he was not mature enough to do the 9th symphony, the choral symphony. I said,
“What do you mean, not mature enough? Look at all of the other things?” I kept badgering him about
doing all of the symphonies.

JDG

Was he intimidated?

NC

No, not at all. He knew in a way that I was needling him to get him to do it. When we finally recorded
all of them, they came out in a box and don’t ask me where but somewhere in this apartment I have one
of the first boxes with the most beautiful inscription that he put on there to me.

JDG

What does it say?

NC

Oh, I don’t remember. It was sort of flattering in a way.

Another thing that I always wanted to do while I was here was to be able to commission and play a new
concerto written expressly written for me. I couldn’t get Ormandy to get him to put the stamp of
approval on it. So I went to Riccardo, not his first or second year, I’m not sure how many years he was
here, and I told him. He knew that Stanisław Skrowaczewski from Minnesota was a friend of mine. He
was willing to write the concerto but we needed it approved so that the money could be raised. He was
responsible for me to finally having a work written for me and played by me.

JDG

Tell us about the concert, the premier.

NC

Well, actually Muti did not direct the first concert. Skrowaczewski did.

I don’t know if I told you the story about my friend in the orchestra in the percussion section and what
he did. There was a famous place in this concerto, I don’t know where Skrowaczewski got the idea,
where there was a rather large bucket of water and by striking some kid of a symbol and putting it into
the water, it made this unique sound, a very unusual effect. Just before I was about to walk out on the
stage, and this is a very interesting concerto because it starts with just a solo violin, I think it was the
third or fourth time playing it, my so-called friend came up to me and he said, “I would like you to know
what happened so you won’t think that it is a different sound tonight. We decided that big bucket of
water, we are going to put gold fish in there tonight and when I strike it we will see what kind of sound.”

I said, “Ron how could you tell me that when I’m about to walk out on the stage?”

Anyway, that wasn’t really a Muti story but it was interesting.

Incidentally, John, we have done a lot of talking about musicians. I don’t know of any other group of
professional people, maybe Ophthalmologists that have the sense of humor that musicians have. It is
quite unique.

JDG

I wonder if they just have a greater understanding of the foibles and what are the things we need to
laugh at to get from one day to the next.

NC

Yeah, I guess.

JDG

Tell me about the concert for Reagan. Was that the inauguration where you were asked to play?

NC

That was for Nixon.

JDG

It was for Nixon? And there were protests?

NC

Ohh, we had terrible protests. It got to a point where we almost had fisticuffs. It took a few of us to
stand up and say that we were playing for the President of the United States, not for Nixon. We did
eventually play that concert which led indirectly Nixon coming to the Academy of Music here in
Philadelphia to present Ormandy, I forgot the title of this medal, where he sat very close to the stage.
Ormandy asked him what piece we could play for him.

Nixon said, “I like the 1812 overture”.

Well, you know there are real cannons in the middle of it and if you’re playing outside, we us the
cannons. But if you are playing it indoors, there are big metal drums and the stage hands know that
with a certain cue they are to shoot these blanks into the metal drums. No one thought to tell the
Secret Service that the stage hands were bringing rifles into the Academy of Music with the President
there. Well, when they came before the concert with the rifles, all hell really broke loose.

JDG

Well, that was with Ormandy. Apparently, there was a concert with Reagan and a protest over nuclear
disarmament with Muti.

NC

Well, we had a group in the orchestra, myself included that worked on nuclear disarmament. But don’t
remember playing a concert for Reagan.

JDG

Well, how about the memorial concert for Martin Luther King, Jr. in Washington?

NC

No, I don’t remember that one.

JDG
Muti recalled it as the most moving concert of his entire career.

NC

Oh really. I was out on some occasions as I had surgery and I could have missed those events.

JDG

How about the issue with the Academy of Music and Muti realizing the acoustics had problems.

NC

That was one of the first things that created problems for Muti. Starting with the Board of Directors,
they thought this was one of the greatest halls in the world, one of the oldest, Etc. Etc. Etc. As soon as
Muti got here there was something with the acoustics at the Academy that bothered him and he was
quick to talk about it. In a way, he was responsible for the new hall being built. He used to tell people,
he said, “I would like to see another hall built and I don’t plan on taking it back to Italy. It is a hall for
you in Philadelphia.” He had many disagreements with the board about that.

JDG

Well, he realized that having the orchestra in the pit for opera and apparently the Academy was built as
an Opera house and that was different than having the orchestra on the stage. When having the
orchestra on the stage, the acoustics were off.

NC

Well, you can’t put the scenery on the stage if you have the orchestra on the stage. I don’t remember
playing for how many operas and each one was a more magnificent experience then the last, I don’t
remember it affecting me. The only thing that was missing in a way was the drama.

There was no doubt about it, he had many ideas that he wanted to have changed here.

JDG

He was a pretty good fund raiser.

NC

Oh yeah

JDG

And he was basically responsible for the Kimmel Center would you say?

NC

Well I wouldn’t say he was responsible but he certainly is responsible for getting people to think about
it. Eventually he had Kimmel come up with a tremendous amount of his own fortune.

JDG

Were you at the concert in Jerusalem where he first conducted? Do you remember that concert?

NC

When we were in Tel Aviv?

JDG
Yeah

NC

Yeah

JDG

Do you remember the first time he conducted?

NC

Who, Muti?

JDG

Yeah

NC

There?

JDG

Yeah

NC

Well, I was there. What are you going to…

JDG

Well, what was it like to have him as conductor for the first time.

NC

No, he had conducted us before.

JDG

Hmm, ok, right. He had come over in 1972.

NC

One second John…

It is amazing that you brought up that subject. A few days ago, they announce that the orchestra was
going to Israel with Yannick for the first time. I have a picture. Do you recognize any one there?

Who is the conductor?

JDG

Oh yeah, it is Muti. So is that the concert?

NC

That is the concert we did in 1992.

JDG

Maybe that is the concert they are talking about.

NC

That is the last concert he conducted with the Philadelphia Orchestra.

JDG

Ok, maybe that is what they…

NC

You don’t recognize anyone else? Who is this guy right here? He happens to be wearing glasses.

JDG

The Silver Fox.

NC

Yeah, the Silver Fox. You’ve got it.

JDG

Let’s end our discussion on his characterization of you as being charismatic. It is evidently his view of
your persona.

NC

Well, I tell you something. I don’t care who the person is. If you are a Concert Master of an orchestra,
you should damn sure get along with everybody.

I don’t know if I should tell you this story.

JDG

Yes, you should

NC

You know, I never saw Muti lose his temper except once. He had made it very clear to mainly to the
brass section that if they were rehearsing a movement that they don’t have to play, they can very
discretely walk off the stage and walk back on. However, what he did not want them to do is read a
magazine or a newspaper while this was going on. I don’t remember what the work was we were
rehearsing when all of the sudden he stopped and slammed the score closed. He said, “Mr. [so and so],
are you reading something other than the music?”

The man should have lied but he stupidly said yes.

Muti was furious and he ran off the stage. We sat there stunned for 30 seconds. I quietly got up and
walked over the gentleman involved and I told him that if he was smart he would get his ‘behind’ back
there and apologize as soon as you can.

In the meantime, I walked out back to try to calm Muti down. I told him what had happened. This
fellow never bothered to do that. Muti called in the Orchestra committee which comprised of members
of the guys in the orchestra and talked this over. He felt this was the biggest sin as far as he was
concerned. Maybe some of the guys thought that it went a little too far. That was the one and only
time I saw him lose his temper for anything and I don’t know of anyone who spent more time with him
than I did. Something just hit him. He wanted this guy fired. I said he couldn’t do that, that this
gentleman had a family and etc. etc. To this day, and this happened in the 1990s, this guy has never
come to me and thanked me. You talk about charismatic, I don’t know if this falls under the heading of
charismatic, but you just have to somehow sense something and stop it before it gets out of hand.

JDG

You are the orchestra’s psychologist and help smooth things over.

NC

That is what we need, a good psychologist.

JDG

But I also heard that when you came out as the Concert Master and tuned the orchestra, there is an
excitement that the Concert Master gives.

NC

Well, the audience always reacts.

JDG

Well, you must convey that excitement and conviviality and congeniality and the anticipation of the
music.

NC

I don’t know if I can find it right now but I remember coming out for one concert and I received a letter
about 10 days later saying something like, “Mr. Carol, when you come out on the stage you have such a
feeling that the orchestra… would you mind if we tell you that the back of your coat needs pressing?”

JDG

Have you ever gone out when you weren’t feeling well and you just had to fake it?

NC

All the time. All the time. I played the last two years with Sawallisch in constant pain with shoulder
problem. That is one of the main reasons I had to retire.

JDG

And traveling

NC

That is why I hate to travel today. I don’t even like to travel to Washington.

April 19th

JDG

Here we are with Norman Carol on April 19th on a very dreary day. It is cold and rainy but we had a
great lunch. We are going to hear a couple of stories about Leonard Bernstein at Tanglewood.

NC

Well this story goes back to about 1945 or 46. I was a student at Tanglewood and the student orchestra
was given the honor of doing the first America performance of the Opera Peter Grimes by Benjamin
Britten. Benjamin Britten was a famous composer in Britain and Leonard Bernstein was the director of
the orchestra. We worked all summer on this and the day before we were actually going to do the
performance, Benjamin Britten actually came to the United States to hear this first performance. He
heard a rehearsal two days before we were scheduled to play this and he quietly informed Leonard
Bernstein that he felt the tempo that Leonard Bernstein had decided to use was much too fast for the
opera that he had composed. So, being a student orchestra, we were told about this by Bernstein and
we had to have two additional rehearsals to please Benjamin Britten. A professional orchestra, you tell
them it is too fast and in two seconds they know how adjust. But with us we had to start rehearsing all
over again. That was one of the early exposures that I had to Lenny Bernstein. It was something even as
young as I was to know what an extraordinary talent this man was. Here we are celebrating the 100th
anniversary of his birth this year.

JDG

Could you tell that Britton was happy after? You could tell his demeanor improved?

NC

Oh yeah. I believe he was very pleased. The opera itself now is part of the repertoire of the
Metropolitan Opera and they play it quite frequently. Anyway, it was nice to get to know Benjamin
Britten. You have to remember that back in 1945-46 he was not as famous as he is today as a composer.

JDG

How would an opera be assigned to Tanglewood? How would it be first performed there?

NC

I think it probably had something to do with Serge Koussevitzky who was the conductor of the Boston
Symphony who dreamed and actually built Tanglewood eventually. I would imagine that he was quite
happy to have a fairly well-known composer come and play an opera at his famous Tanglewood.

If you look back at the people that were students at Tanglewood, including Bernstein, it is amazing what
Tanglewood did. Tanglewood was only a 6-7 week festival every year and now it is world famous.

JDG

And Norman Carol also.

NC

Yup, very true.

JDG

Let’s hear about the baseball story again.

NC

I may get in trouble with my children again. When I was at Aspen during the early 1960s, we would have
a number of people, some of whom were in the orchestra in Aspen, would play softball. I always
envisioned myself to be a great baseball player someday. Of course, that never happened. The very
first game we were challenged by the reigning great softball team of the Aspen area. This probably took
on a good part of the Denver and the rest of Colorado. They had heard that we musicians had a softball
team that they thought was pretty good and they challenged us to a game. I was immediately assigned
to be to play shortstop. I thought I was going to be the best shortstop in the world you know. The very
first pitch that our pitcher threw to their batter, he slammed the ball right to me and it caught me on my
thumb. I must say that I made the play. My two children happened to be in the stands where we were
playing and I went over to them right away and I said to them, “Go home and get me some ice as fast as
you can. But don’t tell you mother about what has happened to me.”

Anyway, as the hours passed by my thumb bloomed up pretty well and I went to one of the orthopedic
doctors in Aspen. I must say that I don’t think you can find better orthopedic people than in Aspen. He
took one look at my thumb and said he could take an x-ray.

I said, “Yes, oh please take an x-ray!”

“Well”, he says, “if you want to waste your money I can take an x-ray but I can tell you that you have a
chip or a bone that is badly bruised.” He put a splint on my thumb.

The worst part of this story is I was scheduled for the following Sunday to play the violin part in the Bach
Double concerto with Szymon Goldberg who was the conductor and very famous violinist who was in
charge of the orchestra that summer. The difficult part was for me to go and see Szymon and tell him
what happened and that I would not be able to play the Bach Double that Sunday.

Of course, in a very thick German accent, he says, “How can a musician play a violin and play baseball?”

Well, I said it was always a part of my life. Anyway, instead of gripping the bow inside, I was able to grab
the bow from the outside because I had a splint on my thumb. So I learned to hold bow differently. 10
days later we played the Bach Double and from what some of my friends tell me, it sounded better with
the splint on than off.

JDG

You have had a long love affair with baseball.

NC

Oh yes.

JDG

Do you remember playing when you were a little boy and it competing with your violin practice time?

NC

Absolutely. At least my parents were smart enough to know that I was entitled to a certain amount of
time. I should say that one of the stories I think that shows how popular baseball was to me, in 2008 the
Philadelphia Phillies were in the World Series. The Philadelphia Orchestra was asked to play the
National Anthem before the game. It was on a volunteer basis. I was one of the people who could not
wait to get out on the field. I tell people all the time that if you look at my right foot, this foot was
standing right on home plate when we played the National Anthem. Can you imagine that after all of
the famous people I have known in my life time, that turns out to be one of the most important events
of my life.

JDG

When did you first learn about the Phillies?

NC

When I was a kid my father would take me to the baseball games. My father, who was born in Russia
and came from Russia, didn’t take long for him to understand the importance of kids to be involved in
sports.

JDG
Did he love the game too?

NC

He did. He understood the game too. It was funny because in those days you could only park on the
street. The kids would come up and say that they would watch your car for dime. So while we were
gone for three hours, these kids would watch our cars for an hour.

JDG

That was great story.