Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's Self Inquiry - Explained.. - 2

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Thread: Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's Self Inquiry - Explained...
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07 September 2014, 01:22 AM #1
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silence_speaks Age: 41
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Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's Self Inquiry - Explained...

SELF INQUIRY POST 1:
I was reading an article in one of my favorite web sites and someone has asked: "How to go deeper in Self Inquiry" ?
I want to elaborate on this in the next few posts here.
In short I want to address : What is Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's Self Inquiry and how it works. Why some people
seem to find it too difficult. We need to gain clarity on this.
There are many mistaken notions about Self inquiry which make it seem almost impossible. People have some exotic
notions which they keep chasing in the name of Self Inquiry. There are others who make use of those exotic ideas and
try to make some disciples. For example suppose a disciple goes to a guru and asks "Sir, how can I dive deeper into
my self" ... and the guru says "my child, you have to do a lot more practice", and then adds a big list of practices ... !
But an Ashtavakra would say "Muktha eva asi sarvadha", you are ever free ! There is no diving in! This later
statement is not clearly seen while its easy to get hooked to idea of practices as most modern gurus suggest.
Then there are others who say "muktha eva asi sarvadha", copying Ashtavakra style but do not have the methodology
to systematically demonstrate that You are the Self !
We will take into account all these issues and try to gain a holistic perspective on Self Inquiry ... rather than
understanding it in bits and pieces ... as we proceed with this series of posts on Self Inquiry
Come up, O Lions, and shake off the delusion that you are a sheep
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07 September 2014, 01:22 AM #2
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silence_speaks
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Re: Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi's Self Inquiry - Explained...

As I already mentioned, there are lot of wrong ideas and notions built around Self Inquiry and in order for us to clearly
appreciate what it is, its important to root out the wrong ideas or notions. Some of these might be very unacceptable
for many devotees since they have been thinking on these lines for many years! So as I dismiss the notions, I give
appropriate references from the works of Ramana, Annamalai Swami and Shankaracharya. We need to take the
teaching in a holistic fashion and not in bits and pieces.
hindudharmaforums.com/showthread.php?13274-Bhagavan-Ramana-Maharshi-s-Self-Inquiry-Explained 1/7
Wrong Notion1: Self Inquiry Leads to An Experience Of Realization
As exotic as this seems, its the biggest hurdle in one's way to appreciate Self Inquiry. Annamalai Swami stresses it
again and again that we do not need a new experience. So it would not be right for us to think that Self Inquiry is to
gain yet another experience. Experience, in any case, is just as good as our interpretation of it. There is nothing like
an experience of liberation. Here is a quote from Annamalai Swami:
"Spiritual seekers have a very strange habit: they are always looking for a way to reach, attain,discover,experience,
or realize the Self. They try many things because they cannot comprehend that they are already the Self. This is like
running around looking for one's eyes with one's own eyes.
Why should you imagine that it is some new experience to be discovered or found ? You are the Self right now, and
you are aware of it right now. Do you need a new experience to prove that you exist? The feeling "I am existing" is
the Self. You pretend that you are not experiencing it, or cover it up with all kinds of false ideas, and then you run
around looking for it as if it were something external to be reached or found. There is a story about someone like thus.
Once a king imagined that he was a poverty-striken peasant. He thought , "if I go and meet the king he may be able
to help me by giving some money"
He searched for the king in many places but he could not find him anywhere. Ultimately he became very depressed
because his search was not yielding any results. One day he met a man on the road who asked him why he was so
depressed.
He answered, " I am searching for the king. I think that he can solve all my problems and make me happy but I cant
find him anywhere".
The man, who already recognized him, said with some astonishment, "But you yourself as the king!"
The king came to his senses and remembered who he was. His problems all ended the moment he remembered his
real identity.
You may think that the king was fairly stupid but he had at least enough sense to recognize the truth when it was told
to him.
The guru may tell his disciples a thousand times "You are the self, you are not what you imagine youself ot be", they
all keep asking the guru for methods and routes to reach the place they are already are."
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07 September 2014, 01:23 AM #3
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silence_speaks
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Friends, in my study of Self Inquiry I started by negating some wrong ideas. I will try and demonstrate that once we
drop these wrong ideas and notions, Self Inquiry is very simple and direct means to abide as Self. Lets therefore
proceed to look delve deeper into this.
The first idea, I have negated is the notion that "Self Inquiry leads to an Experience". I have taken the help of
Annamalai Swami's statements as support to this view. Let me now proceed to the second wrong notion:
Wrong Notion 2: Aim Of Self Inquiry is Thoughtless State.
Self Inquiry is supposed to lead to liberation therefore if we are able to have enough evidence that liberation does not
mean thoughtless state, this wrong notion can be dismissed.
So here are the quotes to support this view:
"Nothing can cause bondage for the Jnani because his mind is dead. In the absence of mind he knows himself only as
consciousness. Because the mind is dead, he is no longer able to identify himself with the body. But even though he
knows that he is not the body, its a fact that the body is still alive. That body will continue to live, and the Jnani will
continue to be aware of it, until its own karma is exhausted. Because the jnani is aware of the body, he will also be
aware of the thoughts and vasanas that arise in that body. None of these vasanas has the power to cause bondage for
him because he never identifies with them"
---> Living by the words of Bhagavan pg 267
infact in a conversation with Ramana, Bhagavan tells Annamalai Swami that Samadhi does not mean thoughtlessness:
"Does Samadhi mean that one is unaware of everything ?" , I asked.

"No," said Bhagavan. "Mediation will go on without our effort. That is Samadhi"
"Then what is Sahaja Samadhi ?", I asked.
Bhagavan answered by saying , " In that state meditation will always be going on. In that State the thought , 'I am
meditating' or 'I am not meditating' will not occur".
This tells us that thoughtlessness is not liberation. There are ample evidences in various scriptural texts that explain
that thoughtlessness is not liberation. We will cite some of them a little later. Thus it can be safely concluded that the
purpose of Self Inquiry is not to become thoughtless. This is a totally wrong notion.
But then, does not Ramana himself say that one should direct one's attention to the root of each thought as it arises
until they no more arise ? We will look into Self Inquiry as taught by Ramana in his own words a little later. When we
look at statements like this in isolation and miss the holistic teaching of Ramana we will not be able to understand him
correctly. I am afraid that some of the popular followers of Ramana have missed the mark ! I will dedicate the next
few posts also to establish more clearly that Ramana did not mean elimination of thoughts to be the aim of Self
Inquiry --- this is important to properly understand the True teaching of Ramana
Note: It is yet another thing if due to lack of desires thoughts do not arise. To a Jnani presence or absence of thoughts
is not a problem.
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07 September 2014, 01:24 AM #4
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silence_speaks Age: 41
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I have cited a few quotations of Ramana and Annamalai Swami to convey that thoughtlessness is not the aim of Self
Inquiry. Let me here present the logical reasons for the same.
1. The teaching is that "I AM NOT THE MIND", if I am not the mind then how does it matter if mind has thoughts or
not ?
2. Suppose Ramana says "Practise Self Inquiry to remove your thoughts", then it means Ramana has "I" and "You"
notion , without which he could not have come to the conclusion that you have thoughts and would benefit from self
inquiry. Some people raise a rather weird objection to this by saying "Ramana had no thoughts, it is you who see him
as having thoughts" ... with that, the Ramana who had no thoughts never appears to us , since we always see a
Ramana who has thoughts ... so the one who says to us that he has no thoughts would turn out to be actually the one
we are seeing as having thoughts ! That is a problem.
3. If thoughts bother me, how can i say i am not mind ?
4. The only way for anyone to know that Ramana had no thoughts is for him to say "I have no thoughts"... and when
he says it, there exists another person who has thoughts. So, that would mean Ramana is talking from the
perspective of an individual mind .... his own mind .... which has no thoughts ?? Since when my mind still has
thoughts, how can he say he has no thoughts unless he sees his mind as separate from my mind , in which case that
itself would become a thought !!
So as we see, there can be various logical flaws in concluding that thoughtlessness is liberation. We will shortly also
see some evidence from panchadasi , yoga vasishta, ashtavakra gita etc which explain this same point.
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07 September 2014, 01:24 AM #5
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silence_speaks
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Panchadasi says in chapter 7, verse 180:
So what is my understanding that thoughtlessness is not liberation based upon ? There are various quotes... form
different scriptural texts. Here , I quote a few. Those that are not yet convinced may have to perform their own
unbiased study based on the clues I provide here:
anapahnutya lokaastadindrajaalamida.N tviti |

jaanantyevaanapahnutya bhoga.N maayaatvadhiistathaa||
अनप नु य लोका त द जाल मदँ ि व त।

जान येवानप नु य भोगँ माया वधी तथा॥
anapahnutya : without removing
Lokaah : the world
tad-indrajaalam : the magic show
idam: ths
tu: but
iti thus
jaananti eva : knows very well
anapahnutya : without removing
bhogam enjoyment
mayaatva - dhiH : the knowledge of the illusory nature
tatha : in the same way.
people know a magic show to be unreal, but this knowledge does not involve the destruction of the show. The same
way it is possible to know the illusory nature of external objects without causing their disappearance or the cessation
of enjoyment from them.
It would be an interesting exercise to read verses following 180, where panchadasi clearly states that removal of
duality or thoughtlessness is not liberation.
----------------------
Annamalai Swami ji says in Final Talks that once the world is known as unreal, it does not matter whether thoughts
exist or not. He further says that thoughts vanish according to one's prarabdha karma. They vanish when the
corresponding prarabdha karma is exhausted. Mind and body are under the influence of prarabdha karma.
-----------------
Next I would like to quote Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi himself, from living by the words of Bhagavan:
Q: The mind does not sink into that state even for a second.
A: A strong conviction is necessary that `I am the Self, transcending the mind and the phenomena.'
Q: Nevertheless, the mind proves to be an unyielding obstacle which thwarts any attempts to sink into the Self.
A: What does it matter if the mind is active? It is so only on the substratum of the Self. Hold the Self even during
mental activities.
--------------------
This tells us that Mind being active is not a problem at all. This is one of the clearest presentation of this fact. We
further get a very important clue "FIRM CONVICTION THAT I AM SELF, TRANSCENDING THE MIND AND THE
PHENOMENA". This is the most essential statement . How can we get this conviction ? We will park this question for
the moment. We will address this next.
I would further like to quote from Ashtavakra Gita:
Ashtavakra Gita chapter1, verse 15:
niHsa~Ngo niShkriyo.asi tva.N svaprakaasho nira~njanaH |

ayameva hi te bandhaH samaadhimanutiShThasi ||
नःस गो नि योऽ स वँ व काशो नर जनः।

अयमेव ह ते ब धः समा धमनु त ठ स॥
You are unattached, actionless and self -effulgent, without any taints. "You try to make your mind thoughtless,
practise samadhi", this indeed is your bondage !
Why is this bondage ? Because, mind is not me! If i am trying to make the mind calm to see myself as calm, i am
perpetuating the ignorance that mind is me!! The teaching is crystal clear.
-----------------
Even in yoga vasishta, saragu tells his friend "Why do you think remaining thoughtlessness is liberation".
There are many similar references in Yoga vasishta, in the story of chudala also. ..
--------------
Tripura Rahasyam has even more interesting argument. In chapter 10, verse 15 onwards we have an interesting
conversation. The context is , Hemalekha, the realized wife teaches her husband about Self Knowledge. The husband
realizes the truth and remains seated in Samadhi when his wife talks to him. He says:
aho daivahataa bhaasi GYaatvaapi tvamida.N padam |

tadvishraanti.N parityajya mudhaa duHkhaaya ceShTase ||
अहो दै वहता भा स ा वा प व मदँ पदम ्।

त व ाि तँ प र य य मध
ु ा दःु खाय चे टसे॥
You appear to be unfortunate, even having known this Truth,

instead of remaining dissolved in the Truth, you seem to leave this Self and involve yourself in the worldly activities
which are full of suffering !!
And the answer given by Hemalekha is really wonderful. She says :
naatha te tanna vidita.N pada.N paramapaavanam||

नाथ ते त न व दतँ पदँ परमपावनम ्॥
Oh Lord! you have not yet known the reality about your Self Completely.
She continues ...
"nimiilyonmiilya vaa netre tatpada.N na samiixyate
नमी यो मी य वा ने े त पदँ न समी यते
That State of realization, is not lost or gained by the opening or closing of eyes [closing of eyes here is reference to
remaining thoughtless]...."
she then says ...
"doing something or not doing something does not affect your Self ! You neither gain Self through doing something
nor not doing something ! What is achieved through closing of eyes or doing something or going somewhere [or
remaining thoughtless--- closing of eyes here is reference to remaining thoughtless], can that be the Complete One ?
The Whole ?"
------------------------
With all these references if someone still equates thoughtlessness to liberation, then its unfortunate. Wherever there
are references to thoughtlessness, its not to say that mind has to be come thoughtless but that Self is ever
thoughtless even when there are thoughts in the mind. The thoughts of the mind are like clouds passing before the
Space like Awareness. There are never any thoughts in awareness, neither will thoughts ever affect the awareness.
This knowledge makes one see oneself as Awarness, ever thoughtless. This is what is meant by remaining
thoughtlessness and the advice is not to make mind thoughtless. Even as, to see myself as immortal, does not mean
that the body has to become immortal. It just means the knowledge that i am not the body.
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07 September 2014, 01:25 AM #6
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silence_speaks
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SELF INQUIRY 6:
We have now given enough quotes and supporting statements to reject out two wrong ideas:
1. Self Inquiry leads to an experience, called the experience of liberation. This is a wrong idea. The idea that a new
experience is needed is wrong idea.
2. Self Inquiry leads to thoughtlessness. Thoughtlessness is liberation. This is also a wrong idea. We have given
enough quotations in post 5 of this series to substantiate that this is a wrong idea.
So then, what is the purpose of Self Inquiry ? If we understand this properly, its absolutely easy. We will see this
aspect in our next post.
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07 September 2014, 10:23 AM #7
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Believer
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Namaste,
Originally Posted by silence_speaks

I was reading an article in one of my favorite web sites......
Some of us are deeply, deeply hurt and disappointed that HDF is not your favorite Hindu web site.
Pranam.
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08 September 2014, 12:37 AM #8
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silence_speaks
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Dear Believer ,
"one of my fav." Thats the escape route I left myself in my statement !!
There is no doubt that HDF is an excellent website
Love!
Silence
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12 September 2014, 08:58 PM #9
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ameyAtmA Posts: 215
SacchidAnanda Rep Power: 343

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Originally Posted by silence_speaks

"Nothing can cause bondage for the Jnani because his mind is dead. In the absence of mind he knows himself only as consciousness. Because the mind is dead, he is
no longer able to identify himself with the body. But even though he knows that he is not the body, its a fact that the body is still alive. That body will continue to
live, and the Jnani will continue to be aware of it, until its own karma is exhausted. Because the jnani is aware of the body, he will also be aware of the thoughts
and vasanas that arise in that body. None of these vasanas has the power to cause bondage for him because he never identifies with them "
---> Living by the words of Bhagavan pg 267
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~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Namaste,
The above is what I filter out from this thread and then frame it.
|| Shri KRshNArpaNamastu ||
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12 September 2014, 10:39 PM #10
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silence_speaks
Age: 41
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Dear AmeyAtma,
Namasthe!
Originally Posted by ameyAtmA

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~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
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~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Namaste,
The above is what I filter out from this thread and then frame it.
yes ideed ... but if mind is dead, how can it be functioning or non-functioning. What did he mean by death of mind in
such a case ?
Love!
Silence
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07 September 2014, 01:22 AM #1

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