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32 Vo i- t1rrr 1 "

Harrtl on Volume4,
J

John Cohen. theCelestialMonochord,

and tlte wholesomeness
of
popularmusic.

John Cohen:l You oncetold me of

r Flarry Smith: The rcal reasonthat
I first met Harry
/ Smith around1960in
the f ront entratrceof the Folftlorc
Center, lzzy Young'sstore on Mac-
DougalStreetwhichwasthehubof folk-
music activity in NYC's Greenwich
Vllagc. Thestoreandthesccoecmerging
aroundit attractedall kindsof inspired
charactersf rom across the USA,
includinga recentlyarrivedBobDylan.
I knew Harry's Anthology from 1952,
and had purchased eachalbumas it was
issued.
I hadworkedwith Moe Asch,the
headof-Folkwaysfor whom I rccorded
with Thc New Lost City Ramblers.
Harry's collectionhad influencedus
greatly.Moe first told me aboutHarry
Smith, the man:that Smith wasa little
your manynewplansf.or Volume4 of.
the Anthology.
it didni comeout nasthatI didni have
sufficicntintcresrin it. I wantedto
makc more of a contentanalysis.I
madephonctictranscriptions of all the
words in the songs, but those
notcbooks got lost. The conrent
analysis rraslike how manytimesthc
word "railroad"was uscdduring thc
Deprcssionand how many times
during thc war. Thc proportionsof
diffcrentwordsthat might havcsomc
significaat mcaning bcyond thcir
extcrior. Certain idcas bccamc
popular,the word "food" was used
incrcasinglyin thc rccord catalogs
during the Deprcssion.I f inally
analyzcdthe catalogsrathcr than the
rccords,becausc you cani do anything
with sucha smallsampleasthcrearcin
 Cohen.
oddball guy-something o{ a that set.
hunchback-who had amasscd his
collectionof 78 rpm rccordson the west
coast, and paid for it with his iob
workingin the tight partsof World War
2 bornbcrs.The man I met at lzzy'sf.it
this description:puzzledby the folk
sccneat the storc,annoycd, inaccessible,
fully in chargeof himself,fascinating,
neitherfriendly nor evetrsociable.
I had loancdmy scratchedcopiesof the
Anthology to the photographerRobert
Frank,who wasmy neighboron Third
Ave. ApparentlyRobertlistenedto it a
Iot. Another neighbortold me that
Robertplayedthe son6"He'sGot Better
ThingsFor You"inccssantly.
In 1962I bumpedinto Harry on Eighth
street and introducedhim to Penny
Sceger,who waswith me.Harry askedif
I hada drink otr me,andwhenI said"no"
he excusedhimselfandrolledoveron the
sidewalkand into the gutter. He \tras
writhing with his legsin the air, and a
33
JC To mc thc Aniltology rsasmore a
than a
statemeotof intcrrclationships
sampling.
HS Well, the problems that wcrc
involvedin thoscintcrrelationships
havc
becnsolfcd sincethen, so therc is no
particularrcasonto bring thoserecords
out. They areni as relevant-thereisni
as great a possibility of them doing
good,ascertainotherthingsmight.
JC Sfhataboutthe celcstialmonochord
image used on the cover of the
Anthology?
HS Therewereto bc four of them,and
four volumesin the series.Red,BIue,
Crecnwereissued,so that the element
that wasleft out wasearth.The type of
thinkingthat I appliedto records,I still
apply to other things like Seminole
patchwork,or to Ukrainian Easte r
e88s....
34 Cohen.
crowd gatheredaroundhim. Then a
bowery derelict carnealong,pulled a
flask from his belt, and gaveHarry a
drink.Harry thengot up,the fellow left
and the crowddispcrsed. Harry saidhe
had wanteda drink and had scen the
bowcryguy comin6in our direction.
Then the threeof us wcnt to Harlemto
view Twist Dancingat a club called
Small's Paradise.The taxi and club
entrancefee had usedup most of my
money,so we startedlooking for a
subwaylate at night.Walkiogalongthe
sidewalk, we werethe only whitepeople
around.Harry dived headfirstinto a
rvastebasketandcameout with a stackof
discardedstudio portrait photographs.
He startedto sort theseout on the
sidewalkaccordingto size.A small
crowd of peoplegatheredaroundhim,
and he gaveeachof thcm a photograph
from the sidewalk.They walkedoff,
satisfied,and we took the subwayback
downto the Vllage.
JC What was your intendcduse for
(making) correiationsbetweensong
titlesandquilt designs?
HS Oh, some kind of compulsivc
activitl I doni knowwhatthc sourceof
it would be. If you interpretthingsby
some kind of neo-Freudian
interpretation, it can be said to bc a
compulsive act,lilce a devclopmentout
of making mud pies, they're a
developmentof somethingworse, or
bettcr, whateverit is. But collecting
records-l reallydoni know.
...thcproblemsthat I'd set myself on
haveto do with correlatingmusicinto
somekind of visual thing, into somc
kind of diagram.It wasmuchsimplerto
skip the music entirely and study
diagramsthat had alrcadybeenmade.
Bcingas my essential interestin music
was the patterningthat occurredin it
(intuitionor tastconly beinga guidcto
dircctionswherethis patterningmight
 Cohen.
ln 19641wroteanoccasional columnfor
the Little Sandy Reuieu.and did one
about Harry (March-April, No. 29)
rshich discussedhis high ideals for
societyandthe folk musicmovement. I like Unclc Dave Macon's or Sara
wrote, "Every movemcnt has its
andpopularizers-MoeAsch
capitalizers
and Harry Smith arc not amongthem.
Their role hasbeenmore as thc source
andwellspringfrom whichotherthings
come. If anything,Harry could be
consideredas the rnystic and genius
behind the traditional folk music
movement, but his interestis neitherin
the movementnor the musicper se.'Do
asthy wilt shallbe the wholeof the law'
is more like his motto." I learnedlater
that Harry had shownmy articleto a
iudgein somelegalsituation, andit had
beenimportantin EettingHarry off the
hook. Thus,he wasthankfulto me for
this unplannedfavor.
In 1965Harry telephonedme collect-he
wasin jail in Anadarko,Oklahomaand
wantedme to sendhim money,andraisc
35
occur)it wasiust aswcll to collectsome
other obiect.I'm surethat ,if you could
collectsufficicntpatchworkquiltsfrom
thc samcpcoplewho madethe rccords,
Carter'shouscs.you could figurc out
iust aboutanythingyou can from the
music... like certainthingssoundg6od
to a pcrsonin music,certainthingslook
goodto the cyc.And at somelevelthosc
two arcinterconnected.
HS At differentpointsof my lifc I'vc
taken some kind of drug or othcr.
Naturally I've taken them for matry
years.The first oneof thosethatbecame
availablewasPeyote.I first took it on
a.
the roadiust outsideSaraCartcr'sauto
court.I wasnisureif the top of my head
wasni goin6 to fly off. Someonehad
boughtthe propertypc of cactusin the
{loral departmcnt of a dcpartment store
in SanFrancisco, so we ateit. Anything
that changesthe cousciousness to a
36 Cohen.

more for him. Around that timc, his degrecI think is useful....
notebookandthc tapesfor the proiected
Volume4 cameinto my hands.I really
didni know whatto do with thesetapes.
Thcy hadni becnissucdbecause Harry
either hadni writtcn or had lost the
documentation for them. Someoneat HS There\pasno marketfor Hillbillv
Folkwayshadmadea substitute sclcction recordswhereI wasliving (Anacortes,
of old 78s for Moe Asch to issueas Washington).But there wcre several
Volume 4 of. the Antho[ogy, and I Broupsof peoplelike the CarterFamily
in the hills south of Seattlc....Thev
advisedagainstit because it would not
wereimmigrantsthat camein 1890from
reflect Harry's choice or his visiol. the SouthernMountains.
Harry wasniinterestedin workingon the
notes;he wasinto otherthingsby then. I met Griff Borgeson, the onewho later
found SaraCarter ..., he fust casually
Furthermore,a slew of old hillbilly,
mentioned,"Oh yes,weve beenseeing
bluesandiug bandrecordswerebeingre-
Sara Carter late|y." For a whilc I
issuedthen, and most of the country couldn'tbelieveit....So afterI foundout
music and blues was alreadyavailablc. (whereshclived)I wentthereandstayed
The New Lost City Ramblershaddone a fcw days,a coupleof times.
an album called .Songs from the
JC When would that havebeen,and
Depressionwhich duplicatedmany of
what would you do for a daywith Sara
the social,/topical
cutson Harry'stapes.
Carter?

Faccdwith the dilemmaof what to do HS Wouldit havebeenin 1945?

Shewas
with this material,I sought assistance making patchwork quilts, aod I
f rom distant folklorist f riends who photographed
themin color.
 Cohen.
might identify the sourccsof the
rccordings.Harry had 6ivcn me a
notebookof what he hadwrittcn so far.
On the top of cachpagewasthc namcof
a song,andthc restof cachof the pagcs
wasblank.I sentthc tapesand"notes"to
cithcr DK Wilgusin Los Angeles,or to
somcothcr fricnd.Over the ycarsI never
couldrccallwhcretheywent.It turnsout
a copyof thcm hadgoneto |on Pankahe
of the Little SondyReuiew. andhc sent
them on to RaniSingh,the directorof
the Harry Smith Archives.Shc brought
the proiectto Revenant.
Althoughmanyof us who wereinvolved
in folk music wcrc influenccdby the
Anthology, thcre was Iittlc concern
aboutHarry Smith himself.The carly
word wasthat his namewasa pscudonym
to disguisea discographer or a famous
folklorist. I hadalwaysbeenintrigucdby
the visualgraphicsthat accompanied the
Anthology,espccially its moderncollage
quality. Now onc thing must bc said
about the folk music world: there was
37
JC Why?
HS You haveto rcalizethat I'd becn
studying anthropology at thc
Univcrsity of Washingtonso I had an
intcrestin that sort of thing. I didni
know.vhat I wasgoingto do with.them.
They wcre Iikc vcrlr nice abstract
pattcrns.I tried to gct hcr to nasre
ccrtain dcsigaswhich she thought
rcsembledccrtain songs.Shc didni
undcrstand me or what I wastrying to
say.It waslike somekind of a Rorschach
response-likcthing.She'dsay,"Wcll that
oneis callcdField of Diamonds, I gucss
that'slikc "Diamonds In Thc Rough"(a
wcll-known Carter Family song). I
alwaystook 5 by 7 pictures.
HS I'vc beenintcrcstedin other things
that give a heightenedcxpcricncein
rclation to the cnvironmcnt.Some
peoplcarc naturelovers,somebecome
cxportbankcrs,howcvcr,I prcsumethat
38 Cohen.

andis almostno concernor appreciation all theseare methodsto communicate

for modernor abstract art there.It always accordingto the cultural background
has botheredme, becausc personally,I thcy have.So I arnintcrestedin gctting
havcalwaysbecndeeplyinvolvedin those seriesof obfectsof differcntsorts.It's a
ideaso{ art.I alsorealized thatamongthe convenient wayof finding information,
ntal for whateverusc.It docsseemapparent
abstract artists and experime
sinceI startcdcollectingrecords,that
filmmakcrs,thcrewasvcry little interest
thereare definitecorrelations between
in folk music.They seemed to seeit as different artistic cxpressionsin onc
lowcr class.But in Harry,I sawsomeone particular social situation, like a
who bridgedthoseboundaries. So in the consistcocyin using small Iines in
hopc of somc reconciliationwithin Australianaboriginal art,andthe music
myself, in Dec. 1968, on rny own is the samethin6, short words. My
initiative,I interviewed Harry Smith in rcccntinteresthasbeenmuch more in
his roomat the Chelsea Hotel. Iinguisticsthan it has beenin music,
becauseit's somethingthat can be
satisfactorily transcribcd,whereas I
The interviewwasprintedin Sing Out
haveni seensatisfactorytranscriptions
Magozine,and twcnty-five years later
o{ music.
providedthc f actualbasis for Robert
Cantwell'schapteron Harry Smith in The meansof measuring folk musicare
WhenWe WereGood: TheFolk Reuiuol inadequate... by thetimethatphonemics
(1996).Greil Marcusalsoquotedheavily had beendeveloped to the point that it
would be possiblcto transcribcfolk
from thc interviewin his book Inuisible
songs,there was no money-making
Republic(1997). Bill lvey-thenthehead
reasonto do it ....
of thc CountryMusicFoundation (now
the headof the NEA) andthe manwho
 Cohen.
recommende d Harry for a Iifetime
Grammyaward-toldme that cverything
he knew aboutHarry Smith had come
from this same intcrview.Although
there had been various printcd
conversations with Harry, they were
largelyabouthis work in experimental
films. The ChelscaHotel intervicwwas
the only onehe did that focusedon thc
musicof the Anthology.
Shortly after Harry died,a groupof us
cametogetherat the ChelseaHotel to
talk abouta memorialand what to do
with his collectionsandproiects.There
was emphasison his f ilms, on his
mysticism,Tibetanculture,but littlc on
his musicology.RaymondFoyc was
there, so was AIIen Ginsberg,and a
womanwho claimedto be Harry'swifc.
Eachpersonhadtheir orsnagenda about
what wasimportantaboutHarry. I was
the voicethat broughtattentionto his
music and the importanceof Harry's
Anthology of AmericanFolk Music.
The restis history.
39
JC To my mind the Anthology
anticipatedthe popularRock n Roll
which followed.Many rock musicians
arc return-ing
to thosesounds.To mc,
of
today'smusicseemslike"anextension
the Anthology.
H5 That's what I was trying to do,
because I thoughtthat is whatthis type
of folk musicwouldleadto.l fclt social
changes foutrd resultfrom it. I'd been
readingPlato'sRepublic.Hc'siabbering
on aboutmusic.how you havcto be
carcful about changingthe music
bccause it might upset6r destroythe
government. Everybodygctsout of step,
you are Dot to arbitrarily changeit
because you mayundermine the Empire
StatcBuildingwithoutknowingit.
40 Cohen.

PostScript:

I onceaskedHarry abouthis selcctionof

BascomLunsfordandBuellKazeeon the JC You havesaidthat populartrends
Anthology.ln a way,they wcreneither areimmcdiatelysatisfying.
popular singcrsnor dircctly from the
HS Aoy kind of popular trend is
music traditions-Lunsford being d infinitely more wholesome rhan
Iawyer and Kazee a ministcr with a listcningto old recordsand trying to
traincdvoice.Harry saidhe chosethem institute changes.It's more important
for their individualisticaspects.
From that pcoplc know that somc kind of
that I could see he might be more pleasure canbe dcrivedfrom thingsthat
intercstedin individualecccntricities arearoundthem-ratherthantb catalog
thana notionof "authenticitv." morcstuff-you cando that forcvcr:and
/
if peoplearcni goingto havea rcasonto
changc, they'rcncvcrgoingto change....
In Volume 4 therc was to be a clear
distinctionbetweenthc "goldcnage"of I doni think peopleshouldspcndtoo
recordings, which endcd with the much timc fiddling with old records-
economic crash, whcn thc bottom it's bctterto switchon the radio.
droppedout of thc rccordbusiness, and
the musicthat camcaftcr.'Whereas
in the
1920sthere wcrc many recordingsof
fiddlc stringbands,
theseccascdwith the
crash.Thc'30ssawthegrowthof brother
duets(Monroc Bros.,BIuc Sky Boys,
etc.) and snnall f.amily groups. The
practical cconomics of survival shaped
 Cohen.
thc direction of music, and encouraged
thc morc packageablcaspcctsof the
cmcrgingcountry music business.
Lookingbackat Volume4 f.romtoday's
vantatcpoint, you canscethe senseof
prophcsyio it; for instance,
the inclusion
of Robcrtfohnsonwasmadclong bcfore
othcr blues rc-relcases, the Rolling
Stoacsor Eric Clapton.
WhcnI visitcdhim at thc Chelsca.Harry
usuallytried to gct me stonedandthen
lay somepowcrful trip on rne. During
oncof thosecventsheplayedme a record
which hc told mc waswhaf my mother
hadlistcncdto whenshewasa girl. He
wasright, andthoughI can'tthink of the
singcr'sname,I couldhearmy immigrant
mother'svocal aspirations to art rnusic
comingthrough.At thc sarnesessionI
rccall Harryi crowdcd,messyroorn,
with thc bird cagcopen,thc parakcets
shittingoa thc mirror, and micc eating
thc food in thc bird cagc.Harry playcd
soorcdcvastating tapeshe had madeof
t"j
E:
4r
HS ...The Anthology was not an
attemptto getall the bcsrrecords(there
atc othcr collectionswhcrc cverything
is supposed to bc bcautiful).but a lot of
thcseweic sclectcdbccauscthcy wcrc
odd-an importantversionof thc sotrg,
or onewhichcamcfrom somcparticular
placc.For cxamplc,thcrc .*.i. things
from Tcxasincludedthat wercni very
good.Thcrc wasa Child ballad,"Henry
Lcc" [Child 68]. It's not a good ,..orj,
but it wasthe lowesr-numbcrcd Child
ballad.Therc \sereother thingsput in
simplybecause thcy veregoodp.ifot^-
anccs, Iike "BrilliancyMedley"occursto
rne. You couldn'tj.r . ,cir.scnt.tiue
cross-scction of musicinto sucha small
numbcrof rccords[six LPs]. Instcad,
they wcresclccted to beonesthat would
bepopularamongmusicologists, or pos-
sibly with pcoplcwho would wanr to
singthemandmaybcvould improvethe
version.They wercbasicallypickedout
from an cpistemological, musicological
selectionof reasons.
42 Cohen.
Phil Ochs, very drunk and nearly
ring about his rcsentme
blubbe nt of
Dylan'ssuccess.
It waspainfulto Iistento.
Then we took a taxi uptown,for Harry
wassupposed to buy someethnomusical
recordingfor a wealthy"patron"
of his.I
wonderedwhat little obscurestorewe
wereheadingto. It turnedout to be the
backof oneof the biggestrecordstores
in the middleof TimesSquarewhereall
the recordingsfrom UNESCO were
availablc.
John Cohen
HS 2...Boy,whata-a lot of the grcatest
things wcre not issued.See, what
happened to thc fourth volume,finally,
wasthat Mr. Asch-l'd hadanargument
with Miss Distler. She wanted to
includea particularsongthat'scalled-
sinceRoosevelt hadbecnelected-ldoni
know [singing],"Wc'vegot FranklinD.
Roosevelt backagain."I think it's by the
DelmoreBrothersor-it wasnot a good
performance,as f.ar as that set was
conce rned. Thc f irst criterion was
excellenceof performance, combined
with excellenceof words. Now, the
fourth volume,for example,had "No
Depressionin Heaven."by the Carter
Family, which is not only bcautifully
sungbut hasexcellcntwords.I didni
likc [thc DelmoreBrothers]rccord,and
so they dqcidednot to issuethc album,
because it wasthe, you knoq whatever
it's called, thc immovable obiect
meetingthe irrcsistiblcforcc.
I Intcrviewconductedby fohn Cohcnat the
ChclscaHotcl. NYC. 1968.
2 Intcrvicwconductcdby Gary Kcnton at thc
BreslinHotcl, NYC. 1983.