A Conversation with Hans Haacke

Author(s): Yve-Alain Bois, Douglas Crimp, Rosalind Krauss and Hans Haacke
Source: October, Vol. 30 (Autumn, 1984), pp. 23-48
Published by: The MIT Press
Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/778298
Accessed: 22-09-2019 06:38 UTC

JSTOR is a not-for-profit service that helps scholars, researchers, and students discover, use, and build upon a wide
range of content in a trusted digital archive. We use information technology and tools to increase productivity and
facilitate new forms of scholarship. For more information about JSTOR, please contact support@jstor.org.

Your use of the JSTOR archive indicates your acceptance of the Terms & Conditions of Use, available at
https://about.jstor.org/terms

The MIT Press is collaborating with JSTOR to digitize, preserve and extend access to October

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
 A Conversation with Hans Haacke

YVE-ALAIN BOIS, DOUGLAS CRIMP,

and ROSALIND KRAUSS

Krauss: Since your work has, from the beginning, resisted pain
criticizing painting as incapable of supporting any serious critiq
assumptions, what made you decide that your work for your Ta
bition last spring would be a painting?

Haacke: That wasn't the first time I did a painting.

Crimp. Right. There's the portrait of Reagan that formed part

Hommage a' Marcel Broodthaers, the work for Documenta 7. But i
that the portrait of Margaret Thatcher is the first instance in w
a painting by itself?

Haacke: No, there's another precedent, aside from the painti

I turned to three-dimensional work in the early '60s. For a s
in 1983, I made what I called a Painting for the Boardroom, an
scape. It is a somewhat impressionistic aerial view of the A
smelter in Arvida, Quebec. I painted it after a photograph th
Alcan P.R. pamphlet. It is a cheerful, sunny picture. Into t
painted a short caption which announces, in a tone of pride, that
Arvida have an opportunity to contract bone fibrosis, respirato
cancer. The painting is framed in aluminum siding. Obvious
cases, I chose to paint because the medium as such has a particul
is almost synonymous with what is popularly viewed as Art - a
A--with all the glory, the piety, and the authority that it c
politicians and businesses alike present themselves to the folks
surrounded by halos, there are similarities between the medium
jects. When I planned the Reagan painting, I was also inspired by
of Marcel Broodthaers. In the catalogue preface to his Musie d'a
partment des aigles, Section des figures (1972), he pointed to the para
the mythic powers of the eagle, the symbol of empire, and the m
art. Contrary to popular belief, eagles are really not courageous

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
24 OCTOBER

even afraid o
The same is
gold frame, t
mortality an

Krauss: But i
standard icon

Haacke: It is
paint doesn't
frame. I had
around painti
these frames
ings with rel
As with the f
and the paint
interior with
sculpture of
on. I thought
sents. As yo
century cons

Krauss. Most
(unfinished),
stood as Vict

Haacke: Of c
match the yo
unfettered by
selves to the
panies around
they gobbled
network. And
York agency
peddler of br
with the pow
they ran the
year. They al
this year. He
British adver
the days wh
assumes that,
election camp

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
A Conversation with Hans Haacke 25

outdone, the Saatchis' South African s

promotion of the constitutional chang
the white voters by the South Afri
apartheid think that this change, in ef
political power in South Africa exclusi
tutes sixteen percent of the populatio

Crimp. Both the Reagan and Thatcher

to comment on the relationship betw
the current revival of painting in a r
portrait appeared in a Documenta ex
its authority to the painting revival, w
mation about the power of the Saatch
painting. Why then did you choose a h
century academic style for these paint
directly comment upon the neoexpres
the return to painting?

Bois: The iconological mode you've u

going on in contemporary painting.

Crimp. It's true, of course, that what

ences, and I can see that you would w
political personalities and Victorian
work's pungency with regard to curr

Haacke: But if I had concentrated on t

content would have been left out. I
an art-world affair. The art world is n
associated with much of the retro t
amounts to a gold-frame celebration o
era, which clearly predates and diff
original expressionists. Much of the c

Krauss. I'd like to explore further wh

cians like Reagan and Thatcher wish t
the oil portrait, because of its aura,
image, yet connecting the Saatchis
thing which involves the opposite of t
the twentieth century --the public re
media. I'm interested to think about a
Thatcher and Reagan, who have been
their images conveyed through the m

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
 ?:OWN

-::::i__-:-:-:::: :-l~i-j~i::i~~i-iiiiiiii-ii'ii, ~ i-:i:~:i::-: :::-i~-: ~i::-::::::~::: i~l :i'::-i,"s a ?~?:-: -::--i :-_ --- ---? -_ii?-lji:ilj z i;l

lot~

IN 1111.1.riw

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
Hans Haacke. Taking Stock (unfinished). 1983-84. museum's exhibition policies. Among its member
First shown in the exhibition Hans Haacke, Tate are collectors and nearly all London art dealers
Gallery, London, January 25-March 4, 1984. as well as the New York dealer Leo Castelli. There
have been complaints that the Saatchis have never
Inscriptions. donated a work to the Tate Gallery.
On the foot of the column, left. ES SAATCHI TRUS/
ITECHAPEL GAL/TRONS OF NEW/ART
COMMITTEE/HE TATE/GALLER. Charles Saatchi was also a member of the Board
On the top shelf of the bookcase: MS, CS.of Trustees of the Whitechapel Gallery, another
On the spines of the books in the bookcase. public
Alliedinstitution
Lyons, in London. It is suspected that
Avis, BL, Black & Decker, Blue Nun, heBritish
profited from inside information about
Airways, British Arts Council, Britishexhibition
Crafts plans of the Gallery, which allowed
Council, British Museum, British Rail,him Campbell
to buy works, notably by Francesco Clemente
and Malcolm Morley, at a favorable moment.
Soup, Central Office of Information, Conservatives
British Elections, Conservatives European
Elections, Cunard, Daily Mail, Dunlop (acc.
Doris Saatchi, a Smith College graduate and
lost), DuPont, Gilette, Great Universal Stores,
ex-copywriter for Ogilvy & Mather, and her
Johnson & Johnson, IBM, Massey-Ferguson,
husband Charles began collecting art in the
Max Factor, National Gallery, National Portrait
early '70s. Initially interested in photorealism,
Gallery, Nestle, Playtex, Proctor & Gamble,
they shifted their attention to minimalism and
Rank Organization, Rowntree Mackintosh,
neoexpressionism. When the Museum of
Royal Academy, South Africa Nationalist Party,
Contemporary Art in Los Angeles opened in
Serpentine Gallery, Tottenham Hotspurs,
1983, it invited eight collectors to present
TV-am, United Buscuits, Victoria & Albert
selections from their holdings. The Saatchis chose
Museum, Wales Gas, Walt Disney, Wimpey,
works by Baselitz, Chia, Clemente, Guston,
Wrangler.
Kiefer, Morley, Schnabel, and Stella. In a further
On the paper hanging over the edge of the table. In the
attempt to exert control over the art world,
year ended March 31st 1978 Brogan Developers Saatchi & Saatchi made a bid to buy Art in America
Ltd. (Saatchi Investment Ltd.) sold art works
when Whitney Communications offered it for sale.
valued at ?380,319.
On the paper lying at Thatcher's foot: Saatchi & Saatchi
Company PLC/The year ended September 1982/The financial base for such ventures is the income
Furniture, equipment, works of art and motor from the advertising agency Saatchi & Saatchi
vehicles/Gross current ?15,095,000/replacement Company PLC, which has been built by the
cost/Depreciation ?7,036,000/Net current Saatchi brothers, through mergers, into the largest
?8,059,000/replacement cost. Tangible net assets British advertising agency and the eighth largest
are stated at historical cost or valuation less worldwide. In 1982 they acquired Compton
accumulated depreciation. The cost and valuation Communications, a large New York agency with
of tangible fixed assets is written off by equal a worldwide network, and in 1983, McCaffrey &
McCall, also of New York. Shares of Saatchi &
annual installments over the expected useful lives
Saatchi are traded on the stock exchanges in
of the assets: for furniture and equipment between
New York and London.
6 and 10 years. No depreciation provided for
works of art.

The initials MS and CS on the rims of the broken Doris and Charles Saatchi are soon to ope
plates on the top shelf of the bookcase refer to private
the museum in the north of London, to
brothers Maurice and Charles Saatchi, whose designed by Max Gordon, a friend and fo
portraits appear in the center of the plates. In colleague at the Tate. A catalogue of the
1982 Julian Schnabel, known for his paintings collection with contributions from well-known art
with broken plates, had an exhibition in the samecritics and historians is being prepared by Doris
space at the Tate Gallery where the Haacke show Saatchi, who also writes for the World of Interior
was later installed. Nine of the eleven paintings
Artscribe, and Architectural Review.
by Schnabel were owned by Doris and Charles
Saatchi. At the time, Charles Saatchi was a
member of the Patrons of New Art Committee of In February 1984, one month after the opening
the Tate. The museum is a public institution the Haacke exhibition at the Tate Gallery, Charl
operated by the British government. While the Saatchi resigned his position on the Patrons of
New Art Committee of the museum. He also
Patrons are a private association with the goal of
acquiring and donating contemporary works to resigned his trusteeship of the Whitechapel
the Tate, they also appear to have influence on Gallery.
the

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
 28 OCTOBER

Haacke. Marg
she should st
also took voic
been transfor
cally to look
fore thought
her rivalry w
seated her on
that I found in the collection of the Victoria & Albert Museum. Thatcher
would like to rule an Imperial Britain. The Falklands War was typical of t
mentality.

Bois: So that is why you used the emblematic tradition, the iconographic
symbols?

Haacke: Yes. I hope everybody understood that this was done tongue-in-cheek.

Crimp. It also seems that there is a strategic aspect to this, insofar as you are
using a painting style that even the most naive museum goer can read. It's pos-
sible in this way to capture a broader audience, and interestingly enough there
was a very large media response to the Tate Gallery work. By resorting to this
auratic art form, you get press coverage that you probably wouldn't get if you
were to use a more avant-garde kind of object. I'd like to ask you something re-
lated to the question of strategies, because I was struck by the fact that two of
your most recent works are, on the one hand, a portrait painting, which makes
all kinds of concessions to being a traditional work of art, and, on the other
hand, the Isolation Box, Grenada, which makes no pretense to being a work of art.

Bois: Except that, in a way, it becomes a bad piece of minimal sculpture.

Haacke: Indeed, there, too, there is a subtext. When I read about the isolation
boxes in the New York Times, I immediately recognized their striking similarity
to the standard minimal cube. As you see, one can recycle "minimalism" and
put it to a contemporary use. I admit that I have always been sympathetic to
so-called minimal art. That does not keep me from criticizing its determined
aloofness, which, of course, was also one of its greatest strengths. As to the im-
plied incompatibility between a political statement/information and a work of
art, I don't think there are generally accepted criteria for what constitutes a
work of art. At least since Duchamp and the constructivists, this has been a
moving target. On a more popular level, of course, there are strong feelings
about what does or does not look like a work of art. Minimal cubes obviously
don't qualify, whereas anything painted on canvas is unquestionably accepted.
The argument rages only about whether or not it is a good work.

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
Hans Haacke. U.S. Isolation Box, Grenada, 1983.
1984.
First shown in conjunction with Artists Call Against
U.S. Intervention in Central America in the public
mall of the Graduate School and University Center of the
City University of New York, January 1984.

.-:: ::':':':. ,::i ::i:- i::::::::::i~i?:l::?':??'.~:.il:ilzz~:i: - : i:- - -ij ? :-; isi~i::-i: :': :::::-:::-:
::::i:iiii~:? -'iiiiiiiiiiii:iii :::"iiii~i;iii;-:-

.--.. :::::'::: i:i:ijli-i::i.i-iili:. iliiiiiii .:.;::: i:-i i-i iiiii

... i:--i-,-ii'i-iij-i'i-iiLq:~iiBiiZi:ii'i
:i: :: i: ::::
:ii'ijiii'iiiijii iiiiiiiii ::jjii:__-~ij- -i : i: _: ::: '. :~i:l'':i:s.-:':i '':'':''::':-:-'-::'--:::: :::.":':." f.: i:- iiii i -:i'iii-i-s--i8?' -?ii.iiii
:i: : :-- :::':: ': ... : -"?'' '''. '':'''''' ::: -i".'i'.'i-iiiizii
ii-iii-iiiiii :.... iiii::ii ii-i.i:ii.-iZ2iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii'ili-
ii :.- iiii~i:ii.i;::i:'::-::-::'"i::"?'ii;i' :: i ::::
~iii?i::?-- --:-:?-:i::::i:?:::. -:il- -iiiiiiisiiii''~,~'liiii iiii:i liliii_'iiii'iiiii; iii-: rariiiiii:
"88~:''':-i_-- i :j:__i:-i:: ::::i:~l:i~:l::j ~ji:-.. ijiiiii-:;- - : ::i-::?-.~Pliiai'~iiiii~'iii':i"~ii
:::::ssla:~~l:

:-:iii:::i:-:i::::: -?-:-::'::sS~~?~~--~:-:_-_:-:: ~:~i;i-ii:i-i:-iiiii~~~'~~:

:i~i~----,:::::::,:: ---ii-~:l _:::~::.,:i,:;:
:s:;:i:
:-:i:- :-ni:-::iii:ii;-ii':ii~iii~i~
:
'i-,ij~:iiiiiiii: i--ii'i':iii--:-iiii :? ir
i:i:ii:-i-i-ii-. -:_iiii_.i.i:ii
-
: :: :::::::: :::::~::: _::::ijil-: r::-:_ ~:::~-l::i "_i--iiii;----_
~"i?i3 : . :: :-
:: .:.: -iii:iiiil:'ii?''i-iI--i I i -? ::i: : : ::-- :::: ::
iii-iiiiiiiiii? i:;-'i-- ii-iijiji~i; jiiiii ii-ii i: :--:: :: - : : --i----i:i:-?
i:-::::-: ...-. ::- -----
-::::-:-:--:
: ::::::i~ ..;..g:;l:~?iBi-':-:'::j:::
::: :::i-:-i:i::::l ::-- ::-:::-:: ::: ::'::i:i::
?:-:ss-:,,,,,_ .-:.: : i-:.-i:- ::- :- - ? : :
-i:iiiiii-ii-:iii
: _ . ;- : :--ii-ii'i:iiiii: ii i-ii?- -::-::: ::- -:::: ii -::..: i::l-_ ..: :i?ii ;:;::::.:: :: .. .-.- ::-::::::::: ::-i:: -: :: : - I: --:: -:
i.ii`ii2:ii~-: --:
-:::-::
""---
::i:::::ic,-- : i-1'S
i:eiii:iii':-:lliiiiZiii2-ii
. :_ : ?i:i?i:,:
:_-.-i--ii:: ::i::,::::::::::::;:::iiii:iliii4:i:i:iii
: .:::. -?
- .:-_::::.:::: :-i-
: :.: ::-?:-iiii:: :j:: ssia~
?_::::_: . . :.::;:::i::-----i:_:-I:i:i::_
: : :: ..- :::::a-:::;-::: :
-:.:.
:,::::
i-:;:-
::: -::i-::---.::::---::::1:::-:::::
-: :-::?:::::::::::,-- i:::
:: - :-::i:ii
: :::-il:::ii:i:i:_.i:::- i: ~fF
::: :.:::: :::::'::::::
:i:ii;?i:?::_-::i:;~r::::::::::,;::
::::::::-:-:_:-::: :.: :-:::::::::i:i::: .I:i ? iii-i-i:i:i:i i :-:::::?: :::-:-:? :: : : :?:
iiii~~i,:?:,?: :::::::: ::::?::::':::-.~6-: :-::-i.:i-i:i ::-:-:"ii:::_::: :::_
:ir::::::::::

r-:.
r:
:i~ i:: :-_i_:-i~ i:-::ii i.. .- i:ii----- i::ii :- . i ..., ~;l~"~i~'~~~~irilr-isii'':r~i~ji'lLCil ::: ~iii:iii.:ii:i"Biilii~:~---i :
ii:: : : :

~E~a~~j

works toin
David Shribman reported be "in proper New
the company" York
with "America's
Time
November 17, 1983, that
greatestthe U.S.
collection troops
of obscenity that ha
and pornography"
a few blocks down
invaded Grenada detained 42nd Street. The writer
prisoners in of the
boxlike
isolation chambers at editorial the also called the Isolation
Point Salines Box "the most
airport.
The wooden boxes measured remarkable work of approximately
imagination in the show." eig
by eight feet, had four small windows so high th
one could see neither in nor
Artists out,
Call Against and had
U.S. Intervention a numb
in Central
of ventilation holes with a radius of half an inch. America, an ad hoc coalition of artists in the U.S.
Inside one box a prisoner had written, "It's hot and in Canada, staged numerous exhibitions,
here." The prisoners were forced to enter theseperformances, and other events in over twenty
boxes by crawling through a hatch that extended cities from January to March 1984. They were
from the floor to about knee level. organized in protest against U.S. policy in
Central America and in solidarity with the victims
Shortly after the exhibition opened, the of that policy. Claes Oldenburg designed the
administration of the Graduate School moved poster. In New York, more than 700 artists of all
the sculpture into a dark corner of the mall and
ages and styles participated, among them both
turned it in such a way that the inscription was
internationally renowned and totally unknown
hardly visible. Only after strenuous protests was
artists. Established commercial galleries such
the work restored to its original position. as Leo Castelli, Paula Cooper, and Barbara
Gladstone, as well as alternative galleries, made
An editorial in the Wall StreetJournal, Februarytheir
21, spaces available. Artists Call took out a
1984, attacked this work and a gravelike mound three-quarter-page advertisement in the Sunday
of earth in memory of Maurice Bishop, the slain edition of the New York Times. Most art journals
prime minister of Grenada, by the New York artist
reported the events extensively. Arts Magazine
Thomas Woodruff. The Journal found these two carried the Oldenburg poster on its cover.

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
 M.,

?Is

mm-
..........
INUMININ
IRSr M
-i:8:: 1: .i:-_~4"
_:::______:-1 la w:
OEMi'

::Iv,

rkS~

"R:~

31 ::?M:::

MW 1044*6 :: ::j

ask SOAW bk::s SOW-ts Obo:'

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
 A Conversation with Hans Haacke 31

Krauss: One of the things that struc

thinkyou question my motives, 1978-79
high chiaroscuro photographs of black
works of Gilbert and George from the
is always a component of your work
within the art world and the contents
porous.

Haacke: I didn't think of Gilbert and George. Those are photos from a So
African business magazine. They were probably supplied by the Philips
department. But it is true that I often play on the modes of the contempor
art world; and I try to make something that is accessible to a larger pub
which does not care for the histrionics of the art world. As Douglas pointed o
it helps that these pieces do not have the look of hermetic "avant-garde" art

Hans Haacke. But I think you question my motives.

1978-79.
First shown in a one-man exhibition at the Stedelijk van
Abbemuseum, Eindhoven, January 1979.

Translations: more than 1900, blacks, coloreds, and Indians

Left Panel: We are businessmen and we look for predominantly occupy jobs for untrained or
business opportunities, which is the only factor low-skilled workers. Responding to the wishes of
governing our decisions. Political considerations the South African government, Philips established
don't come into it. Nobody is going to help South lamp manufacturing facilities in Rosslyn, at the
Africa unless he is paid for it, and obviously you border of a Bantustan ("homeland"). Philips
need know-how from abroad. We are here to stay. dominates the South African market for lightbulbs,
-Jan Timmer, Managing Director of Philips in radios, hi-fi equipment, tape recorders, and
South Africa. electrical appliances, and has a sizeable share of
Center Panel: But I think you question my motives. the market for television sets. Moreover, Philips
You see me just as a man of capital. However,is active in telecommunications and sophisticated
above all I really would like to help people to have
electronics. Because of the low personal income of
the freedom to develop themselves as much as the black majority population and the widespread
possible, to create opportunities for themselves, lack
to of electricity in black residential areas, the
take initiatives and carry the responsibility for possibility for an expansion of the market in
them. - Frits Philips, in his autobiography, consumer electronics is limited.
45 Years with Philips.
Right Panel: The Employee Councils are advisory The Mirage fighter planes of the South African
bodies. They are precluded from negotiating airforce as well as its Alouette, Gazelle, Puma,
minimum wages or conditions of employment; and and Super Frelon helicopters are guided by
in fact wages are rarely discussed. The averageradio-altimeters and/or radar equipment from
black worker earns 229 rand a month. Blacks are Philips. Such fighter planes and helicopters were
excluded from apprentice training for radio and loaned or sold to Ian Smith's white government
TV technicians by the Job Reservations Act. - of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) by South Africa
Financial Mail, Johannesburg, July 22, 1977, Philips also supplies the South African police wit
supplement on Philips. radio equipment in spite of a U.N. military
embargo, and Philips radio-altimeters guide th
Philips investments in South Africa amount to Exocet missiles which have been supplied to
approximately $83 million. In a work force of South Africa.

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
 Hans Haacke. Everlasting Gratitude. 1978.
First shown in a one-man exhibition at the Stedelijk van
Abbemuseum, Eindhoven, 1979 (The exhibition opened
one week after the Shah's final departure from Iran).

~ 9"li-i"i~ii-i~ii iiiiiiiiiii Iiiili:-::'iili:

ae straase, vestigino van Ptki~ips gePUigBt rin haar aronedie dsrtkb~tr i

iXON' 's
jegeS Fijr Ke~i~Bjiz~e:P[esijes~e de sj~h uv' su,:i rt:dt pme t ~c}' :
van de h'aacnse Hemrjzenispartaij de~ nationble eenh~eid ualit gi hyee~ted.

Translation: Philips of Iran expresses its everlasting

gratitude to His Imperial Majesty, the Shah of
Iran, who secured national unity by founding the
Iranian Resurgence Party. --Advertisement in
the Iranian newspaper, Kayhan, March 5, 1975.

In terms of sales, Philips is the fifth largest

non-American multinational industrial
corporation. With 383,900 employees (as of 1
it ranks with companies such as General Motor
Ford, and ITT. Corporate headquarters are
located in Eindhoven, Holland. In spite of th
decline in the number of employees from 99,0
(1971) to 85,700 (1977), the company remain
the largest private employer in Holland (durin
the same period the number of Philips employ
in low-wage countries, notably in the Third Wo
rose significantly).

In Iran, Philips maintains facilities and a sale

organization. During the Shah's regime, the
Iranian military received, among other materi
210 Tiger and Phantom fighter planes, sixteen
Super Frelon helicopters, and 1500 Chieftain
heavy tanks, all equipped with radio-altimeters
UHF radios, and/or night vision equipment fro
Philips. When the Shah left the country in Jan
1979, twelve vessels of the Kaman class, with
guided missile firepower, were under construc
for the Iranian navy. Their missile guidance
systems were produced by a Dutch subsidiary o
Philips, Hollandse Signaalapparaten BV, in
Hengelo.

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
A Conversation with Hans Haacke 33

Bois: But there is an important differe

Thatcher and Reagan paintings. Until n
transformation of the material. There
I'm thinking of another Philips piece [E
transformation involved only the addi

Haacke: Actually, I didn't add anything

peared in a Teheran newspaper in 1

Bois: That's exactly my point. Befor

change of context was required for a c
there seems to be a much greater med

Haacke. Only in part. Obviously, had

paper ad, it would have remained at
another material and its inherited con
is something we know from art histor
tapestry--that's the way things are dis

Crimp. If I understand what Yve-Ala

Thatcher work, for example, you are c
advertisement and making a facsimile

Haacke. Some of the ads I invented my

style. The quotations about what's good
1975] I took from books and newspa
them so that they look as if they wou
headquarters or in the boardroom. T
context into an art gallery can be de
Alain is referring to plays an importan

Bois: In a way, the Thatcher piece refe

whereas when you transform a quota
ment format, there is no mediation
medium is immediate for the viewer be
in the Thatcher painting, the transfor

Haacke: Maybe there are more layers

Bois: Your earlier work reminds me of

involved the simple robbery of codes.
soundtracks had been removed and r
that was simply a porno-Kung-Fu film

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
34 OCTOBER

soundtrack t
reason they w
new situation
the apparentl
much connec
the connectio
with your pa
What I found
revealing so
painting, you

Krauss: You'r
but if the re
same econom

Haacke. Yes. I
I never learne
I listened ar
study how su
a masterwork
passing grade
had fun doin
stamped a con
to mess up t
thought that
body to paint
Normally, I
can't do, as l

Crimp. Again
work which i
to ask about t
Grenada. It se
art today is t
accepted the
is a great dea
was not given
figurative pa

Haacke. Not

Crimp: Perh
makes it poss

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
A Conversation with Hans Haacke 35

seen in the context of the Whitney Bie

situation, because they fit into the p
that the problem one faces is to invent
enter the art context but which is not
the political thrust vanishes into the d

Haacke. Concerning the Grenada piece,

used dada strategies - the readymade
While it looks like a dumb box and noth
the range of twentieth-century art th
was the political specificity that caused
thought it would take more to get the
and commit three factual errors in one editorial.

Crimp.: Do you feel that you must always make a specific aesthetic choice, that
you have to invent a form that can be understood in aesthetic as well as political
terms?

Haacke: It seems to work that way.

Crimp. What I mean is, do you think this is necessary in a strategic sense,
something that will continue to make it possible for you to function within the
art context? I'm curious about this because it seems to me that artists of your
generation were able to achieve a certain degree of success in the more liberal
climate of the late '60s and early '70s, and having achieved that success, you
can, to some extent, continue to function. But for an artist beginning right
now, it would be much more difficult to enter the art scene as a politicized art-
ist. Therefore the problem for such an artist would be to devise a strategy that
would result in some visibility for his or her work.

Haacke. Yes, I already had a foot in the door when I moved towards politically
engaged work. It got stepped on, but I didn't lose the foot. For young artists
today it may be more difficult. They will have to invent their own tricks for sur-
vival. I can't tell them what to do.

Bois: I was interested to read in your recent interview [Arts Magazine, A

1984] that you thought that if your Guggenheim piece had been censored
1975, rather than in 1971, it would not have had the same impact.

Haacke: I think I wouldn't have received as much support. As soon as the Viet
nam War was over and the draft abolished, everyone relaxed and though
"Well, now we can go home, the fight is over." People withdrew into their p
vate worlds. This is the political vacuum which was then filled by the Rig
We have to live with it today.

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
 36 OCTOBER

Bois. The wa
political shif
cause the lar
never have e
as a way of a

Haacke: I rem
when the rig

Krauss. You
tremendous
PROJECT '74
1975, 1975]. I
the experien
tellectual fel
and the pos
history of o
De Zayas an
formation o

Haacke. No. W
was invited
dredth anni
museum pub
recently bee
paragus. Asid
Abs deliverin
easel behind
Abs was; an
the role he p

Krauss. Playe

Haacke. Dur

Crimp.: Wh
smooth transition between his work for the Reich and his work for the recon-
struction.

Haacke.: So this was the hook on which I could, so to speak, hang the painting
a typical example of l'art pour l'art. Naturally, when I started I didn't know an
thing about the history of the painting's ownership. On the one hand, there
the telling role of Abs - as you say, the smooth transition from the Nazi per

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
A Conversation with Hans Haacke 37

to postwar Germany-but of equal inte

ture is always part of social and polit
ing. And then there is also the art hi
a work, usually restricted to the auth
also establishes its monetary value. I t
with the C.V.s of the painting's owne
the circumstances under which the pa
for the panels. As you know, the mus
patron's past displayed on the walls
As for the Seurat piece, I was inter
ment. In the course of the research
had been acquired by a newly forme
with the beautiful name Artemis. I th
I had with the Manet, and I discove
painting leads you to anarchist circles
galleries, and to wealthy Parisian art
Atlantic, where there is the Stieglitz
establishment of New York, and ag
Depression, the painting was picked u
fortune apparently was immune to th
ally offered it up on the auction b
period ballroom to his house on Rit
is indirectly linked to the fortunes t
way of a company director, there is a
Art. It is an incredible story. I have
high culture from it.

Krauss: Since part of your medium is

tention to the support system for th
point out about Peter Ludwig [ The Ch
he increases the value of his works by
will be done on them, through which
thus their monetary value rises. So yo
history mirror each other. Of course,
search is fortuitousness. Just as the h
garde emerges from the Manet piec
emerges from the Seurat work - the
American avant-garde, the Blisses, th
as was De Zayas, and John Quinn. I
proto-big-art-investment types. Wh
remarkably different cases.

Haacke: A footnote to your remark ab

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
 - - :': ::: :? I I: :

-i-:-:--:: :ii-:i-iiil_- --::i::-iii:-_i : . : :: _::-:__::i:::::::

i-: :-: ::_: :-:::::::- -:I :ill:::il: :-:li: -iii I~
i?:i
_I -.... -
it:
---:. - ..-...-. : ...-.-.. i:::-: ii::::-- :I .:.. _-::_-i--i::i--i::;-: : : ::::- Iri :ii:iii--i: :-ii:-l
-::-:::-:_::::::--::-:--i-:::::--:.::--: :.::::-:----::i:ls-~i:-i:a =:-:i:li-liii:l:liiiii:::::!-:-
~i : ...... ::::i:-i_:_i:

I~unstositz Im Daerleigaben fi :::::::::::::-- i:

jl - : -:-l-_-_-i-_ : :I . -
-:: :-:::-i::

::::::::lil~lil:i:-l1111-:---;---;--lI

iii : :: ::'-
:-:i:
:i :-:-l::--l,:1 - "0 i-k-l i-? A, Z :l. -:,O - -----. : - : :-i-:

:- : : : :::: ::- ------ -::I :--ii'i:ii:ii:i~i:~:i--iiriiili::i-;-- :i:::-:ii--'-:l-':- -i::--l::-il-:-:_:-i:I-: I-I: :lil:-:l-

: :::----:--:-:1 1-1_-----1-( - -i:---li-'----- :- i-:-l:::.- -:...-- ... :~.:i-::I

6,4. 1 -

: .. .- ---
: : : - i: --- ;::-:i:: --.-----.- i-: i -: :: :I

:::- -- :::: : : :::::-:-::::'::-: - ::-': :-::-:-' .:.. -.-- : : : :

I:::::: .. ::_::~-~
-? I I -
-: ~r?~?sFa~+_~ i"x u~?:?a?-~_ ~*tl :-- ~~?s:~~~i*~i~ 9~,~r L~
~ ~P~-i?:,~-:~~l~?8~??~p; ari
..-- ::::_:_:i:r:--i:i:-ii-'Ci?X'?~-~~otiL.~
p::: - ---::6 ii-::i-:-::::: .::
:- -:::::i:?";:~::*i~r~~-*r?i_ -;;?i~,.:;
~~,,, g i?~*-:~Yi~-?x* :- ;. I?l~jO;(
";h~ili);?~?:;ax?
.:.-. -: : : : : : ~-j,,,,,,ii~;-j,~,,,,ii ~,:~~~~i~-~";-~-'i iiii~,
- -:::::::::-i:::l: ---..--. I:: i:_ !-_:1:: :::::::: i
-~: .:: : . --::-:: --- :-::-:-:::':''::::--:- -:': :':~::-~ ~ ~~'~~_~-~i"i---:'i
:::-:::'-'::::::::::- '::::':--::'-: :':::1:~~;?~i???~~i~i~:~iY~~n:ii_:aii:i
:i:':' :-:- -i::1::::-:-:-1::::::-:-: ... ~x~(~iia~f~aciNa?I,,~Mr~~.ri~ii
i
: : . : - ' I ~i~L~~I?r tc~~ ki ~i~4k:l~~:~~:v**
~111 :: :i-i--i--
-_ ::i::-:--i--:i-- j:i
: :: .: k~j~i~~~~l~~h~r_~i~
?s~i? ~~i~
I --- -- -::i:i:i::-----:-: ::-ii::i: :: :i::
I:i
i'it I~ i

-i ?:I- --:-~ -- - ---i-: :::. - I1

Hans Haacke.
for the district Cologne-Aachen-Siegen. T
dzptychs.)
Since the beginningFirst
of the 1950s, Peter and
Maenz Gallery,
Irene Ludwig have been collecting art. At first
survey of
they art
collected old art. Since 1966 they have been si
concentrating on modern art: pop art,
Translations:
photorealism, pattern painting, art from East
Left Germany, and neoexpressionism.
Panel: Since 1972
Art O
from Property
Peter Ludwig has been an adjunct professor at the
in Koblenz, the
University of Cologne and holds seminars in art
Ludwig history at the (Ceme
Museum Ludwig.
Mrs. Helene Permanent loans of modern art are located
L
After at his the Museum Ludwig, Cologne, mili the Neue
studied law
Galerie-Sammlung and
Ludwig and the Suermondt-
a doctorate Ludwig Museum in Aachen, thewit national galleries
of Man in West and as East Berlin, thean
Kunstmuseum Basel, E
Outlook on Life." The dissertation focuses on the Centre Pompidou in Paris, and the state
relations between contemporary literature and museums in Saarbriicken and Mainz. Medieval
the work of Picasso. Historical events get little works are housed at the Schnfitgen Museum in
attention.
Cologne, the Couven Museum in Aachen, and
In 1951 Peter Ludwig married a fellow Bavarian National Gallery. The Rautenstrauch
student, Irene Monheim, and joined Leonard Joest Museum in Cologne has pre-Columbian
Monheim KG, Aachen, his father-in-law's African objects, as well as works from Oceania.
business. In 1952 he became managing partner, In 1976 the Wallraf-Richartz Museum of
in 1969, president, and in 1978, chairman of theCologne (now Museum Ludwig) received a
Leonard Monheim AG, Aachen. donation of pop art. The Suermondt Museum in
Peter Ludwig is represented on the boards Aachen
of (now Suermondt-Ludwig Museum) was
directors of Agrippina Versicherungs-Gesellschaft
given a collection of medieval art in 1977. A
and Waggonfabrik Uerdingen. He is the chairman collection of Greek and Roman art, which includes
of the regional council of the Deutsche Bank AGpermanent loans located in Kassel, Aachen, and

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
Wiirzburg, was donated to the Antikenmuseum The personnel department retorted that
Basel (now Antikenmuseum Basel and Museum Monheim is "a chocolate factory and not a
Ludwig). In 1981 a collection of modern art was kindergarten." It would be impossible to hire
given to the "Austrian Ludwig Foundation for kindergarten teachers. The company is not a
Art and Science." welfare agency.
Peter Ludwig i4 a member of the
Acquisitions Committee of the State Gallery inDer Pralinenmeister (The Chocolate Master) is the
promotional catchword with which Trumpf
Diusseldorf, of the International Council of the
chocolate products are marketed. Trumpf is one
Museum of Modern Art, New York, and of the
of seven brand names of the West German
Advisory Council of the Museum of
Leonard Monheim AG, which maintains
Contemporary Art, Los Angeles.
production facilities in Germany, Belgium,
Canada, and the United States. Sales in 1982
Right panel. Regent. Under the Regent label the
amounted to approximately $660 million (46%
Monheim Group distributes milk chocolate and
outside Germany). Peter Ludwig is the chairman
assorted chocolates, mainly through the low-priced
Aldi chain stores and vending machines. of the chocolate empire with headquarters in
The production takes place in Aachen, Aachen. Together with his wife Irene, he holds
where the company employs 2500 people in two the majority of shares.
factories. It also has its administrative
Through donations from their art collection,
headquarters there. About 1300 employees workthrough hints about possible future donations,
in the Saarlouis plant, some 400 in Quickborn, as well as through loans, they have gained
and approximately 800 in West Berlin. considerable influence in a large number of
The labor union Nahrung-Genuss- European museums. When the city of Cologne
Gaststditten negotiated wages ranging from accepted a donation of pop art in 1976, it agreed
DM 6.02 (scale E = assembly-line work, under to build a museum for twentieth-century art,
eighteen years) per hour to DM 12.30 which was to be completed for the donor's sixtieth
(scale S = highly skilled work). According to thebirthday and to be named after him. The
union contract, the lowest salary amounts to construction thus far is estimated to have cost in
DM 1097. -per month, and the highest salary excess of $100 million. The contract also stipulates
scale stipulates a minimum of DM 3214. -. that the Ludwigs must be consulted when curators
The overwhelming majority of the 2500 and the director of the museum (all city civil
foreign workers are women. They come servants) are appointed and that the donor is to be
predominantly from Turkey and Yugoslavia. given a detailed report on the museum's operations
However, foreign workers are also hired by agentstwice a year.
in Morocco, Tunisia, Spain, and Greece (price
"per head": DM 1000. - in 1973). Another The Neue Galerie-Sammlung Ludwig, a
contingent of foreign workers crosses the border municipal museum in Aachen, regularly serves
daily from nearby Belgium and Holland. as the first public showcase and promoter of
The company maintains hostels for its Ludwig's new acquisitions. Among the shows in
female foreign workers on its fenced-in factory Aachen have been presentations of photorealism,
compound in Aachen, as well as at other locations. pattern painting, neoexpressionism, art from
Three or four women share a room (the building East Germany and the Soviet Union, and recently
art from New York's Lower East Side.
of hostels for foreign workers is subsidized by the
Federal Labor Agency). The rent is automatically A plan promoted by Ludwig to establish a
withheld from the worker's wages. German Ludwig Foundation, to be financed by
The company keeps a check on visitcrs to the city of Cologne, the state of North Rhine-
these hostels and, in fact, turns some away. The Westphalia, and the federal government and to
press office of the Aachen Diocese and the Caritas hold unspecified works from the collector, was
Association judged the living conditions as follows:vigorously opposed by the entire museum
"Since most of the women and girls can have socialprofession. It was feared that the foundation,
contacts only at the workplace and in the hostel, which was to organize exhibitions, purchase
they are practically living in a ghetto." works, and administer a collection, would drain
Female foreign workers who give birth scarce funds from currently decentralized
reportedly have to leave the hostel or they must museum activities, and that, with Ludwig as
find a foster home for the child at a price they canchairman, it would exert an overpowering and
hardly afford. Another option would be to offer dangerous influence on the entire art world. The
their child for adoption. "It should be no problem plan collapsed when Ludwig angrily withdrew
for a big company which employs so many girls his proposal, although the public agencies were
and women to set up a day care center." ready to finance the scheme.

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
 40 OCTOBER

trons. Some J
read all the w
that I was no
minded them
Abs, who ma
victims.

Crimp: There is a specificity to all of your works in relation to where they are
first shown, including even a language specificity - that is, if you make a work
for a Dutch museum, the language will be Dutch. So I wonder about your rea-
sons for showing works again in other places where they don't have that degree
of specificity, or for selling them, which assumes they continue to have value
according to the notion of the universal nature of the work of art. Take, for ex-
ample, the Alcan work [ Voici Alcan, 1983]. People living in Quebec know the
public relations strategies of Alcan the way people living in the U.S. know the
public relations strategies of, say, Mobil. But taken out of the context of Mon
treal, where your Alcan work was shown, the work's meaning is reduced to a
kind of generality which compromises its value.

EKE-
:N R: ....... ...

H/M.
I Q ::m f m:--::

............I$B II~
J:

Nm /N
; t wc ok ::_: iiii-- -i--i--s ...... - 2 /. :

/??
?N':'::::::

./ .. .. .
iiii~iiiii~ii~iii, jii
exiii~iiii-ii:ii
LUCA D LAMEROORtxoji
voo :.~i;~:ii'i~ii::ii_
gii:iiiii;:: m ::?

m.......m. .. . . ...

iii:iii~il~iiii:"esi
-fEN BO, Uxtf wic

"TEF1iii-

. .. .... ... .....:: :

.... ... .

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
Hans Haacke. Voici Alcan. 1983. thereby to circumvent restrictions imposed by th
South African government. The chairman of
First shown in one-man exhibition, Galerie France
Morin, Montreal, February 1983. Huletts Aluminum was represented on the
Defense Advisory Board of the prime minister of
Translations: South Africa. In the early '70s Alcan was accuse
Left panel: LUCIA DI LAMMERMOOR, by church groups of having paid its black workers
produced by the Montreal Opera Company with wages below the poverty datum line. In 1982
funding from Alcan. Alcan's South African representatives of the United Church of Canada
affiliate is the most important producer of the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, th
aluminum and the only fabricator of aluminumRedemptorist Fathers, and the Anglican Church
sheet in South Africa. From a nonwhite work of Canada filed a proxy resolution at Alcan's
force of 2300, the company has trained eight annual meeting requesting the board of directors
skilled workers. to establish a South African review committee to
Center panel: STEPHEN BIKO, black leader, died
"examine the company's activities in South Afric
from head wounds received during his detention including the sale of its products to the South
by the South African police. Alcan's South African
African military, the status of Huletts' chairman
affiliate sells to the South African government on the Defense Advisory Board, and the storage
semifinished products which can be used in policeweapons on company premises, as well as the
and military equipment. The company does nottraining of militia units of Huletts employees."
recognize the trade union of its black workers. Speaking for the board, Nathaniel Davis, its
Right panel: NORMA, produced by the Montreal
chairman, opposed the resolution. He explaine
Opera Company with funding from Alcan. Alcan'sthat all security regulations of South Africa are
South African affiliate has been designated a "keybinding on Alcan's affiliate. "While it is entirely
point industry" by the South African government. normal and indeed inevitable," he said, that Alca
The company's black workers went on strike in products are used by the South African military
1981. Alcan was not permitted, under South African
law, to disclose the nature of sales for military u
Alcan Aluminum Ltd., through its subsidiaries
and affiliates, is one of the largest producers of Stephen Biko was the cofounder and central figu
aluminum ingot in the world and operates large in the Black People's Convention, the South
aluminum fabrication facilities in some African black consciousness movement. He was
thirty-five countries. Throughout the world it arrested without charges by the Special Branc
has approximately 66,000 employees. It is thethe South African Police on August 18, 1977
largest manufacturing employer in Quebec. Thedetained in Port Elizabeth. The police admit
head office of the totally integrated multinational
having forced Biko to spend nineteen days nak
company is in Montreal. On December 31, 1981, a cell before he was interrogated around the c
48 % of the common shares were held by residentsfor fifty hours while shackled in handcuffs an
of Canada, 45% by residents of the U.S. Theirons. During his detention he suffered severe
Chairman of the Board, Nathaniel V. Davis, ainjuries. In a semiconscious state he was tak
U.S. citizen, is reputed to control a considerable
naked in a Land Rover to a hospital in Pret
block of shares. While the largest single about fourteen hours away from Port Elizabet
shareholder is the Caisse de Depot et de He died from his injuries on September 12.
Placement, which administers the pension funds
of the province of Quebec, it is not representedAlcan has been sponsoring cultural program
on the Board of Directors. ranging from the Theatre Alcan and the
production of the popular TV series Les Plouf
Alcan has marketed aluminum in South Africa to architectural conferences and an art collection
since 1930. In 1949 it started production at itsin the company's headquarters. Cosponsorship
plant in Pietermaritzburg near Durban. Majortwo productions of the Opera de Montreal with
new investments occurred between 1969 and 1972. Hydro-Quebec linked Alcan in a highly visibl
When Alcan sold a block of its shares in 1973 to
way with the provincially owned utility compa
the South African Huletts Corporation it stressed
Cheap hydro-electric power is the main asset of
that this was not a political move. Duncan Alcan's aluminum production in Quebec. In t
Campbell, a vice-president of Alcan, explained,
recent past Alcan has been threatened with
"The decision was made purely for commercial nationalization of the electric power generating
and financial reasons. It doesn't mean we're plants it owns in the province.
pulling out of South Africa." The increase in
South African ownership in Alcan's South African "Voici Alcan" is the title of a glossy brochure wh
was published by Alcan in 1979.
affiliate allows the company to borrow locally and

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
 42 OCTOBER

Haacke: Specif
produced. But
for a show, wh
for it, becaus
have to show e
telligent viewe
role. In fact,
not quite as r
strategies refe
focus on. As y
tunes of its sh
have to shape
in the capitali
overshadowed
company, bu
Australia. Even
Tate Gallery a
the historical
apartheid is a
the French cap
where the wor
Also, the Ludw
drew parallels
museums. An
could entail. T
have ambition
both are household names in the inner circles of the international art world.
There are other works that are specific and still have general relevance,
such as the confrontation between Reagan and antinuclear protests across my
red carpet. People in Kassel, as much as in London and New York, thought
that this concerned them directly. So, in a way, many of my pieces are "multi-
national." There is, maybe, still another reason to exhibit works that do not re-
tain their bite when transplanted from their original contexts. I think it is im-
portant to build up and display a record of this kind of work in order to enrich
the critical discourse. I am often told that an array of examples demonstrates
that socially engaged work need not be one-dimensional and tied to a single
medium or a single approach. So the exhibition of the methodology can serve a
useful purpose, too. As to selling the works, let's not forget that we are not liv-
ing in an ideal society. One has to make adjustments to the world as it is. In
order to reach a public, in order to insert one's ideas into the public discourse,
one has to enter the institutions where this discourse takes place. Under present
circumstances, that is easier if an exchange value comes along with use value.
As you know, more often than not it is by way of commercial galleries that one

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
A Conversation with Hans Haacke 43

eventually gets invited to shows th

museum exhibitions, and so forth rar
least marginally, sanctioned by the ar
art press. I am sure we would not b
shown in commercial galleries. You w
might be very different or totally no
work, like that of many artists, is ex
So an occasional sale helps to underwr
ing able to live off the sale of my wo
That would make me dependent of the
a messy situation, full of compromi
Otherwise, one is completely paraly
now I would be consumed by bitterne

Bois: How did you present the Thatch

caption? Was there any information

Haacke: No. That is unnecessary in L

tion campaign, Saatchi & Saatchi is a h
What the general public doesn't kno
show the piece elsewhere, I will have

Crimp: In addition to the information

much more about the Saatchis' art ma
ple, the fact that Doris and Charles Sa
after Charles Saatchi learned in a W
the gallery planned to stage a Morley
formation available?

Haacke: It's not there for a simple reason. I just couldn't think of a good way
get this in without a breach of style and without overburdening the painting
with text. However, the interviews generated by the Thatcher/Saatchi pie
have allowed me to elaborate on such items. This fallout, at the secondary leve
is, in a way, part of the piece. By the way, I was told that not only in the case
the Morley purchases did Saatchi profit from inside information and position
within public institutions. And it was also the talk of the London art world tha
the Saatchis owned nine of the eleven paintings in the Schnabel show at t
Tate Gallery. In any case, it might be worth stating precisely what is in t
painting: that Charles Saatchi is a trustee of the Whitechapel Gallery is i
scribed in the column behind Margaret Thatcher, as is the fact that he is on th
Patrons of New Art Committee of the Tate Gallery. The Saatchi advertisi
accounts of venerable British art institutions, including the Tate, are listed to
gether with other big accounts as book titles on the Victorian bookshelf. And

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
 44 OCTOBER

you can read

table and at M
connections b
flicts of inter
their private
Saatchi has re
Committee o
my Taking Sto

Crimp.: Can w
Now that it h
politicized art
and indirectly
gies do you se

Haacke.: It is
disinterested,
ing, and so fo
serve as a sm
Art and Politi
presents him
this makes a
poses, he is in
his credibility
ences its socio
dustry is, of

Krauss. One o
the very idea
position.

Haacke: He suggests, in barely veiled form, that art works, and the accompany-
ing critical writing, that question current U.S. policies and the tenets of capi-
talism are leading us down the road to the Gulag. According to this point of
view, several of the current presidential candidates and senators and congress-
men are suspect. As you know, this is the classic neoconservative doctrine as
propounded by its godfather, Irving Kristol, who calls Kramer a friend and
was probably instrumental in securing funds for launching the New Criterion. It
is not surprising to find the historian Gertrude Himmelfarb, who is Kristol's
wife, among the regular contributors to Kramer's Kampfblatt. Kramer's pub-
lisher, Samuel Lipman, doubles as a music critic for Norman Podhoretz's Com-
mentary, another neoconservative periodical. As a Reagan appointee, Lipman
also pushes the "social agenda" on the National Council on the Arts, which gov-

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
 A Conversation with Hans Haacke 45

erns the NEA. All of these nice peopl

the Committee for the Free World
Podhoretz's wife. And their activities
vative foundations.
Where the Left is sometimes unnecessarily vulnerable - and Kramer ex
ploits this weakness wherever he can - is in its tendency to make mechanical at
tributions of ideology. In that respect, it mirrors the Right. We should recog
nize that things need to be evaluated within their respective historical contexts
Taken out of context, they are likely to be misread and can play the opposite
role from that of their original settings. For instance, if my Grenada box we
reproduced in Soldier of Fortune, it would have changed its meaning totally, ev
at this moment.

Krauss: That is also the best argument against idealist claims for art.

Haacke. Yes. Meaning and value are contingent. Threatening his readers with
the specter of the "Stalinist ethos," Kramer is, in effect, out to undermine the
First Amendment. This echoes arguments by Lawrence Silberman, his fellow
member on the Committee for the Free World. Silberman urged his friends at
a recent conference to shake off the fear of being charged with McCarthyism.
Kramer's suggestion that arts activities which incorporate criticism of this ad-
ministration's policies and question the sanctity of the capitalist system should
not receive money from the NEA makes partisan politics a "new criterion" for
government funding. Quite a remarkable position for someone who claims to
fight for freedom! Under this formula, government agencies would be restruc-
tured to serve as censors and to perform the task of the reelection committee of
whoever happens to occupy the White House. In Britain, like on the Continent,
museums are public institutions, totally paid for by the taxpayers. There, even
more than in the U.S., one can argue that they are constitutionally obliged to
show art irrespective of its relative allegiance to a particular government's ideo-
logical coloration.

Crimp.: But you can make the same argument for American museums, because
in the end we as taxpayers support them. Museums are tax-exempt institu-
tions; all donations to them are tax-deductible. The ordinary taxpayer has to
make up for donations to museums, whether by private individuals or corpora-
tions.

Haacke: Absolutely. The same can be said of the New Criterion. The conservative
foundations that fund Kramer's publication are tax-exempt. Consequently we
taxpayers are chipping in to cover for their exemptions; and Kramer's spon-
sors were very generous. As start-up money, he got $375,000 from the Smith
Richardson Foundation, $200,000 from the Carthage Foundation of Richard

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
 46 OCTOBER

Mellon Scaif
ginning, th
Park Avenue
Trust also co
public, we d
known to be
zations, he a
in the New C
on the Scaif
help shape t
lems." This
this are disp
to disinterestedness!

Crimp: One of the things that your work has revealed is the specific "interested-
ness" of corporate sponsorship of the arts. Not only do corporations use their
support of culture to clean up their dirty images, but they are able to effect a
self-censorship on the part of the institutions they fund. And within the con-
temporary art world, the force of the marketplace has become so total that one
has the sense that the kind of interventionist work that you and a few other art-
ists make can hardly make a dent in the monolithic monster that the art world
has become.

Bois: In your text ["Museums, Managers of Consciousness," Art in Amer

February 1984], you make a distinction between the old-style dealer and
new, between the Castelli generation and the Mary Boone.

Haacke: In principle, I think, things were not all that different in the past.
now, with the arrival of multinational conglomerates, it has taken on a n
dimension, both in terms of market and ideological control. Ten years a
corporations did not have so much influence on the art world, nor could
gallery/museum/collector complex exert as much pressure internationally.

Crimp: Certainly one change took place after the recession of the early '
which precipitated a crisis for art institutions. That crisis was met by corpora
support, so that now museums are virtually prisoners to corporations. F
museums can now do a major exhibition without corporate sponsorship, whic
drastically reduces the kind of exhibitions that can and will be organized.

* These figures are a matter of public record, as all tax-exempt foundations must file fin
cial reports, which are made available at the Foundation Center in New York.

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
A Conversation with Hans Haacke 47

Haacke: The younger people working

a different kind of art world. They as
And so they all become little entrepr

Krauss: What seems to me especially

tified style as one of the enemies; yo
idealism, as a fundamentally nonhisto
willingness to change depending up
the situation that Douglas referred t
Golub's paintings can be recuperate
come fashionable. You seem to have

Haacke: I'm not sure whether I was aw

that I was primarily what you mi
wanted things to function, in a very
proach over to the more recent work
the art public, one has to devise certa
tion of the results, one has to use pa
pen to conform to the period style o

Krauss: But you have always had a cer

formal aspects of the art of the time

Crimp: It seems to have to do with ut

much recent political art is that artist
for political work. This is what I f
Kruger's work, for example. There ar
the black, white, red of Russian const
the generic images of the '40s and '50
more naked in the photographic imag
generalized political statement, rathe
one of the reasons that Barbara's wor
fact that the work's graphic beauty i

Bois: There is a difference in your

wary of the possibility of recuperatio
the situationists also. So each time t
your position.

Haacke: Yes, one needs to be aware of

should not reach paranoid proportio
optation, I would probably not have b
have a paralyzing effect. I saw this

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms
 48 OCTOBER

'60s and '70s. T

dous personal
neurs. In eithe
takes stamina and shrewdness to survive in this mess.

Bois: One of the reasons I was always so impressed by what I've called your
economy of means is that your work simply provides information, and infor-
mation can't be obliterated. So even if the work is recuperated and transforme
into a meaningless object in a museum, it still carries that information. Th
quality of immediacy, of simply adding information, is the way your work will
always resist complete co-optation.

Crimp. Except insofar as one gets further away from what is referred to histori
cally. After all, Heartfield can be recuperated now, even though his work in-
cludes real information.

Bois: But Heartfield is recuperated mainly on stylistic grounds, as a dada

photomonteur; but I don't think Hans's work could be recuperated in this wa

Haacke: Nothing can escape eventual absorption. But you are right; the infor-
mational aspect probably makes it immune, at least for a while. We just h
to reconcile ourselves to the historical contingency of things. Otherwise, we fa
into the idealist trap of believing in universal meanings and values. But if th
dissenting voices become the mainstream chorus, as it happened, for example
toward the end of the Vietnam War, what more can one hope for?

This content downloaded from 130.70.8.131 on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 06:38:38 UTC
All use subject to https://about.jstor.org/terms