Richard Teerlink and Paul Trane – Part 2

Date of interview

Paul: I wasn’t totally out but I was out enough that – do whatever you want, I don’t
care. But they claim, it’s helped my vision. I can’t tell that it’s done that much
difference. They say it’s better…

Richard: And the doctor got paid.

And yeah… that’s for sure. So, at least I didn’t have to get new glasses yet. And I’ve got
cataracts that I’ve got to deal with soon. It’s the problems with getting’ old. But, it’s a
lot better than it was for my grand parents. I remember my grandmother had
cataract operation and had her layin’ in a bed up at LDS hospital for four or five days,
just like this and couldn’t hardly blink because it was so… if people moved, it’d cause
problems. But now, you can go in and have them done in the mall! The wonders.
Ready to roll?

Jeremy: Well, welcome back! Let’s get right into it. Let’s talk about how you
two met each other.

Well, shoot… it’s through Nick friend…

I came out to one person at school. It was a very scary situation. He set my “gaydar”
off, but I didn’t know. So I came out to him. He waited a day before he came out to
me, which made me very uncomfortable for a while; and I thought, “wow, I don’t
know about being exposed at school,” because schoolteachers could lose their jobs
in those days. But we shared and eventually Loren and I became very good friends
because we’re two schoolteachers in the same school and at least there’s someone
to talk to.

And you car-pooled

Yeah, and we car-pooled together. Later on in life, he was looking for a partner and
so was I. There was another person that Paul worked with – and you can talk about
her – she and Paul had dinner together and he came out to her, and then she said,
“Paul, I think I have a friend who you might like.” So, got him in touch with Loren,
and then Loren said, “I think I’ve got someone who’s just right for you and his
name’s Richard.”

Well, he said, “you’ve got a lot in common,”

Yeah, we have a lot in common. So we walked around Red Butte Garden for a while
and then Loren left us and for us to get acquainted; and then a year later, we were
shacked-up together.

Well, we’re married in Californa. Remember that!

So you’re not living in sin. And when, approximately, did this happen?

I came out to Marilyn who was a social worker I had employed, and I was a principal
at the time; I had changed careers in the same district. But I came out to her and she
was very surprised and amazed. I thought she knew; I thought she picked it up, but
she was really just sort of stunned. She was a lesbian and lived with a companion – a
partner. So that was an interesting experience. About two weeks later, she called and
asked if I’d like to come to dinner – there are good cooks. And I said sure! So I went
and Loren was there – that’s how we met. And then a couple weeks later he called and
said, “I have a friend, Richard Teerlink, we work together out at Kearns, and you two
have a lot in common.” And I knew him through more than the gay thing; it was past
Mormon families: children, grandchildren, the whole business – lots of baggage. And I
said sure! It was September of ’92, we went up to the Red Butte Gardens and it was a
beautiful day. We walked around… and that’s how it all got started!

And do you think that the relationship would’ve worked if we didn’t have similar
background? I think that a partner who did not have children or grandchildren or
Mormonism, that they’d be fed up with all the stuff that we pack around. And of
course now we have a lot to do with our children and grandchildren today. So I’m
patient with Paul’s family and he’s patient with mine, and so it works just fine.

In fact, my oldest son and his present girlfriend were here yesterday; I haven’t seen
Mike in months and I may not see him again; it’s that kind of relationship. We had a
good visit and sort of caught up and can’t believe he’s only forty-five – no youngster,
but to me, he’s still my boy.

Cool. So you went to California to get married. What was – when did that
happen?

AH. Okay, let me tell you that because it deals again with my family. I had five
children, one boy passed away, so there are four living. And my second daughter went
through a very difficult divorce – she lived in Las Vegas. To make a long story short,
she went on a cruise and met this guy, and they call it the “love boat,” because they
really fell in love. He had his mother and family and Barbara was there with her
mother and my ex-wife. So it all got really cozy. But anyway, they decided that they’d
had to be together, so he was in Wyoming doing land management and that kind of
stuff and he left and moved on to Vegas, so he could be close to Barbara, where she
lived. Anyway, they decided they’d get married in Ventura, where his sister and
brother-in-law had a big, beautiful home and yard. So we went down in June of ’08
and it was fun to be able to be with them when they were married. When they were
married in the temple, I think I mentioned before, they wouldn’t let me in, so I didn’t
see any of the ceremony, but I got to be at the reception. But anyway, on the way
home from Ventura, Dick and I were seeing Yosemite and we thought, “oh, let’s go that
way,” it was in June. As we were driving into Yosemite, we saw this little town called,
Mariposa, and it was the county seat.

I saw that on the map.

Yeah, he saw it and then we saw some signs: “Courthouse”; and it was so small that
right as you walked in you were there. “Let’s go check!” I said, “I bet they have
residency requirements, there’s no way they’re gonna let us get married.” Well, they
didn’t! They talked to us, gave us some forms, told us to think it over and… we eloped!
And got married that morning. Very informal; we were in shorts and t-shirts. And
part of the reason we did it; we wanted to be part of those – in terms of the numbers –
of those who took advantage of that. But of course, we were hoping that Proposition 8
would fail; but it didn’t. But the court’s rules were that the people who had been
married were still married in California. So, that’s how that all came about. But when
we got to Utah, that’s it – back to living in sin.

Naturally. So, what was it about contributing to those numbers that you felt
was important?

I think the numbers are important because we went to court a second time and still
wasn’t going to allow this; they took into account how many had – I think it was
about 18,000 couples – and so we were two of the couples that were on the list. We
really did think about expanding those numbers so they had a better argument, if it
did, indeed, it went that way, and it did. So, here we go. But, we were also joining
into the protest after Proposition 8 and marched around the temple grounds and
that felt good.

Well, after we retired, not while we were still working, but just after, we went to
California, Laguna Beach, and got these wedding bands, these rings, and went back to
Red Butte Gardens and exchanged the rings; and then we got married in Washington
D.C., just prior to a march in 2000, in front of Father Abraham, on the steps of the
Lincoln memoriam. That was very moving. There were about 3,000 couples and I had
sort of facetiously said that we couldn’t get married, so we’d just do it often. But now,
we really are married. Not just in California, but in five other states, I think. But, Utah
would be the very last of the fifty.

It will be the most meaningful, right, when it finally happens here?

Yes it will. It will be. It will be quite an event.

Kicking and screaming.

So, I notice that you guys wear your wedding ring on your right hand. Wanna
tell us…

When we bought the rings, we just asked the jeweler, “is it generally a custom for
gay men to wear their bands on their right hands?” And he said, “from what I’ve
observed, about 90% wear them on their right hand, just so people can see that this
is a different kind of marriage from what most people have.” Of course, it’s very
revelatory: people can simply look at your hand they can know your sexual identity;
so it does that – it’s an announcement. It really is. Our rings match, so they know
that we’re a couple.
Cool. So, that’s an interesting point, I think. I think a lot of the discussion
around marriage right now that revolves around “we can be the same as you,
the same, whatever” but this is kind of the same, but it’s also very different –
like you’re saying, it’s also making a different kind of statement. What are
your thoughts on that?

Well, I think Dick said recently to some friends, just the other day, when we were kind
of talking about the fact that when we were kids, younger and had gotten married, we
didn’t know of any gay men couples. I’m sure there were some around, but we never
heard of them. We didn’t know that that was possible. And one thing he said was that,
“I’ve been married to a woman for twenty-five, thirty years, and we’ve been together
and married seventeen years has been a breeze,” you know? It just felt natural.

In terms of how it’s different: certainly the way we relate together is probably very
different. When I came out to a straight friend of mine that I also car-pooled with, it
was very strange; when I told him that I was gay, he said, “Oh! I’d love to be gay.”
And I said, “Why would you love to be gay?” And he said, “Well, then there wouldn’t
be any sexual politics in the marriage;” and it had to do with does a woman do this
or do the men do that. With us, we just say, “Well, whoever does it best… that’s how
it works.” Or, we can both do it. It doesn’t matter. So, I guess it’s an issue in straight
marriages as to whether the men wash the dishes.

Well, and I think it’s less and less than our time.

Yes, in our time…

Men did certain things and women did certain things and boy, nobody messed around
with that.

My father never touched a dish in his life and he can’t boil water.

I don’t think he could wash his clothes!

I don’t think he could either.

So, you know, things have changed a great deal overall. But in this kind of
relationship, we just – he does some things really well, and I do some things well, and
we just do it. I don’t know; it’s something that’s really kind of mysterious. I don’t
recall talking a lot about all that when we got together. It just happened.

It just happened. But it’s pretty even division of…

You know, we talk about finances and we decided for one thing, after about three
years into the relationship, that we’d better go get a lot of legal stuff done, because we
knew we didn’t have any protection that married folks have. And it cost a bit of money
for both of us, but I’m glad we did it. And we’ve had it renewed – or reviewed, what,
two or three years ago. So, I guess, legally we’ve got about as much protection as you
can have. But we had to go to a lot of expense and trouble to get.
Yeah. Do you want to talk about a few of those things that – extra things…

Well, just like visitation rights, hospital, if we’re… I had a heart attack ten years ago
and I would never have made it without Dick. He was absolutely marvelous; both
while I was in the hospital and after when I was recuperating. And we didn’t have
anybody ask us. I don’t recall…

When Paul was going to be admitted to the hospital, the emergency room personnel
asked, “Do you have power of attorney?” And I could promptly say, yes we do! And
they said, “That’s fine, you don’t need to produce it, but if you have one, that’s great,
we’ll put it into the record that you have one.” And whether that news went through
the whole system or what, but the way I was treated at the hospital, we just…

We were both treated really well. Very thoughtful.

It was as though I was a straight spouse as far as…

I was kind of surprised.

… because, after the surgery was over, the doctor came and gave me an extensive
report about how Paul was doing. He didn’t seem the least bit nervous or bothered
about that. And this was at LDS hospital. So, people are getting used to that sort of
thing, and it’s not uncommon any more. And we didn’t have any gripes or
complaints at all, as far as how we were treated.

There was only one nurse, and I didn’t see her that often, and she didn’t see me; but I
think she was a little bit uneasy. But that’s… she never said anything, I just picked up
some vibes that she’d just as soon not take care of me, but go down the hall and do
somebody else. But overall, it was a very good experience and that’s been true of other
doctors and other people that we’ve had an experience with. As far as we know. We
don’t know what they say when we’re not there. But, when we’re with them and we’re
talking about our conditions and all, they’ve been very matter-of-fact. Our primary
care physician is wonderful. We asked him, we said, “We’re a gay couple, is there a
problem?” And he said, “Hell no.” He was great.

So, we refer al of our gay friends to him.

Yeah! We have! To help his practice!

So let’s talk a little bit about… so you were both spending time in the
educational system. Let’s talk a little bit about that.

When Paul and I first got together, we went to a seminar specifically for gay people
in education and I asked a lawyer who was there, “Could I be fired, just because I’m
gay?” And he said, “As the law stands in Utah at this time, you could be fired.” So, I
said, “I’ve got to hide my identity as carefully as possible.” And he said, “I would
recommend that you do that.” So, I’ve always hid my identity, as far as being a
teacher, I was never one of those teachers who were out at school. We know two of
them who were out at school and it was very difficult, because the parents were
always wanting to sit in the class and observe someone.

So, it’s just not worth it.

It just wasn’t worth it. And I had a short time left to finish out until my retirement,
when we met, anyway. And as for through my whole teaching experience, I think
that it’s very sad, to me, that I could pin-point kids that were gay and who were
having trouble, but I could not be of assistance in any way at all. I simply had to
keep my mouth shut. The thing is, you’re not allowed to even say the word
“homosexual.” You certainly can’t discuss anything about it. So, I couldn’t be
helpful. One thing that I made sure was, that there were no put-downs about gays
or any other minority group in my classroom. So, that was important. As for my
students, I passed as “straight” apparently, because I didn’t get any kind of difficulty
from my students at all, for years.

For years.

There was one happening that kind of suggests that they might’ve had a hint. That
was: one of my students, rather early on, said, “You remind me of somebody and I don’t
know who it is.” And he kept at that, and at it. “I think it’s somebody on PBS.” So, I took a
gamble and said, “Was it Mister Rogers?” And he says, “Yeah! Mister Rogers.” And I says,
“Well, it’s because he’s my brother.” And he said, “OH! He’s not your brother!” And I said,
“Well, if you can prove one way or the other, I’ll give you a hundred points, but,” I said, “he’s
my brother.” And he said, “Well, you don’t even have the same names!” And I said, “Oh that’s
just a stage name.” And so, every year I’d play that game, over and over and over. I think
that in a certain way, it was a way of dodging a certain fact that, probably, I was a little bit
more effeminate than most teachers. And if it was like Mister Rogers, well, I guess that’s
okay.

I was asked by a student, much later after that, after many kids had heard this story, “Would
you do me a favor and would you let me tape you and you do a Mister Rogers routine?” So,
we had a studio at our school, so he came over with a camera and everything – it was on my
consultation – and I had prepared for it, so I watched Mister Rogers on television and
memorized two of the songs, so I could do that. The way it worked is, I came swooshing in
through the door and took off my parka and put on a white lab-coat while I was singing “It’s
a Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood.” And then I changed my shoes – the whole routine. I
only got one of my shoes changed; some kids noticed that. But then, when I’d finished that, I
said, “Well, today students, we’re going to dissect frogs. Can you say, ‘dissect’? And so, over
here is a dissected frog and it’s an example of what we’re going to do.” So, then the camera
zoomed in on the dissected frog, and it was wide open so you could see all of the organs and
then I sang the second song, which is really about human sexuality, and that is, “Some are
fancy on the inside; some are fancy on the outside; but everybody’s fancy, everybody’s fine;
your body’s fancy and so is mine.”

That’s lovely.

Well, we both worked for Granite school district, but we didn’t know each other, because most
of my work was with elementary school children. And for twenty-one years I supervised the
school social work program across the district and was always working in a number of
schools, so I traveled all over this little part of the county. But after twenty-one years, I needed
a change. I needed some different kind of leadership. So, I went back to school up at USU and
essentially got another Master’s degree; I got my Master’s degree in Social Work in ’64, and it
took me five years to finish my work up at USU and get the endorsements to be a principal. So,
I got appointed at Woodsxxxx, which is just around the corner down here on 13 th east. I was
there five years. It was a wonderful experience – very different from being a social worker. But
I loved it. And the faculty there was wonderful to work with.

Then I got moved out to West Valley and a great big school. They were getting ready to go
year-round. My first year was in traditional, but moving into year-round; that was a heavy-
duty year. I worked there six years at Valley Crest, so I had eleven years as a principal. And
both careers, mostly, there were times when there were problems and I was pulling my hair
out. But overall, it was a very good experience. But after thirty-two years, I decided there
must be life after Granite kids. They could top thirty-one, so we always a little younger, we
were still about the same place in terms of retirement. So, we’ve been retired, what, twelve
years? Going on thirteen.

Some other experience, I think, about teaching: I didn’t get much flack as far as being pegged
as being gay; and I’m very grateful for that. But when I had my divorce and I took off my
wedding band, it was the first time it’d happened. There was this black girl in my class who
kept making comments, for example: “Mister Teerlink, you don’t cross your legs like that.
Women cross their legs like that and gay men cross their legs like that, but not the way you
are doing it.” And those comments went on and on…

In front of the class!

…in front of the class and I said, “I don’t care what you think about how I cross my legs. And
you can draw any conclusions you want.” Well, it went on and on, until finally she came out
with it and said, made a comment about accusing me of being gay. So, I fired right back and
said, “Now, I don’t tell stories about you being black. Why are you telling stories about me
being gay or anything else? What does it matter? And what business is it of anybody’s?”
And so, it’s just not appropriate either way. She was just enormously offended that I
brought up the fact that she was black. So she slammed her books together and went out
the door and said, “You’ll hear from the principal about this.” So, I said, “I’ll be delighted to
hear from the principal about that.” I was called into the office and I told him about it and
he just said, “I want you to document everything that you’ve got down, in case we ever need
it.” So I did; he backed me a hundred percent.

Is that Barry or Dick?

It was Barry

Barry.

And so the student was reprimanded. In fact, that was very good.

But we really didn’t have any major problems all those years.

I left off a little bit about the Mister Rogers part. When that video was shown on the T.V.; it
was broadcast throughout the entire school. I kind of had my ear to the ground and when it
was over, there was clapping and cheering all over the school. And when the kids came all
that day, they thought it was one of the funniest things they had seen. And then the T.V.
people, they decide what goes on the news, that showed past shots of this and that. So that
little clip, turned up year after year after year. So from then on, I was Mister Rogers. So,
they knew about Mister Rogers.

That’s funny.

Good overall – they were good careers, weren’t they?

Yep. Very much.

And we’re grateful, enormously grateful for the retirement system, because they just took the
money from our paychecks, took it up to the state retirement office. We didn’t even see it,
because I think, with five kids, had I had access to it, I would probably have spent it. But, I’m
very grateful now, but I didn’t have it. Because, with both of us having social security and
state retirement, we’re not wealthy by any means, but we’re comfortable. It’s our kids that are
having financial problems; but we’re helping. We’re doing okay. So I’m very grateful for that.
But, like most men that have families, we worked two jobs to work in schools. Dick taught
biology and earth science at Mill Hollow in the summer with all these sixth-grade kids.

Yeah, we worked with a group of elementary teachers…

And I went a number of times. But I was a part-time social worker at a nursing home in
Murray for eleven years in order to bring in some extra income. And that’s stressful, because
you’re just absolutely run-out at the end of the day. It’s not fair to your family. But anyway,
that’s all in the past.

So, while either of you were working at those schools, did you ever come out to any of
your co-workers or supervisors or other teachers or…

Well, I came out to Loren very early on, and it was the only person I did for a long time. But
after I was divorced, there were a few people that I thought, “I think I can trust them with
the fact of what was the reason for the divorce.” So, there were, perhaps, a half-dozen
people in the school after that time, who knew that I was gay. I think that they held on to
that information as far as I know it didn’t get to students or anything like that. Through
most of my career, I had to hide. The fact is, as a teacher, I really felt like that’s something
that maybe…

You never know when a parent’s gonna go ballistic. For no reason at all.

After I had retired, for example, I saw a letter to the editor and it was just bemoaning the
fact that there were gay teachers teaching in public schools. So, I thought, “well, I guess we
can do this as public as possible.” So, I re-wrote a letter back and what I said is: “Yes, I was a
gay teacher and I know of several gay teachers at my school and other schools and the fact
is, we’re simply everywhere.” And some of the best teachers…

Well, I said for years, if all the gay teachers and people who worked in school districts
suddenly came out or were fired, the systems would stop, because there’s lots of folks. But in
terms of my experience, it was close to two or three years before retirement. But I came out to
very selected people, but some of them were my supervisors and bosses and were still friends.
And they were wonderful. And it wasn’t a problem. For one thing, I had established myself as
a good principal and, in fact, I was invited to come back into the district office for a couple of
years and I said, “thanks, but no thanks. I’d just as soon stay out of schools.” So, I’m very
fortunate, but I had to be careful with who I chose to come out to. You don’t just do a great big
announcement in some school assembly. Not in Utah.

Yes, it seems the stakes for employment are especially high, especially when you’re
dealing with kids.

Yes. Underage kids.

And that’s… and we understand that. When people have some of the mistaken notions of how
we’re gonna “recruit” kids and all that nonsense.

Maybe I could comment about being attracted to your students and whether that’s a
temptation. And Loren and I talked about that a bit. And he had made a comment that I
thought was perfectly appropriate. He said, “Well, if I had anything going with a gay
student,” he said, “it would last until he put on his record player and started playing his
music, and then it’d be ALL over!”

And you don’t play in your own back yard.

And you don’t play in your own back yard. You just…

Besides, we understood that any kind of inappropriate behavior would be damaging to the
students, as well as our career. And we didn’t want either of those to happen.

So, I was never tempted with students. I really did like the people who were my own age. I
don’t think that the kids were ever in any danger whatsoever. And I certainly – ALL that
time – had a very strong notion in my own head that students are off-limits. That’s called
abuse and you just don’t do that.

And it seems there’s a strange conception that, you know, gay people are less capable
of maintaining those professional boundaries. You know, even if you, like you’re
saying that that’s not true, that somehow that’s the group-think.

It is the group-think. It’s kind of interesting. When I hear about a teacher doing something
with the students, I’m always very intensely interested. Well, is the man doing it with the
boys, or is the man doing it with the girls. And I’m relieved when it’s with the girls…

Hopefully it’s the girls.

… There’s far more heterosexual men that are hitting on students than there are gay men.

And a few women.

Yeah, and lately, that’s as surprising as can be, there’ve been a couple of women teachers
going after the boys.

But it was never an issue for us.

Cool. Well, I guess before we move on to the next topic, do either of you have anything
to say on being in the educational system?

Eventually, we’ll probably get around to talking about after we retired, we looked after the
gay-straight alliance at West High.
Oh! Well, let’s go into that.

I can’t quite bring back all the horrible things that happened.

Well, that East High mess…

Yeah. Yeah, that’s what it was. It started the whole thing off. There were some students at
East High that wanted to start a Gay-Straight Alliance, and it was like a bomb went off in the
state of Utah, the way the…

The legislature got into it.

All the people in politics got into it and it was just a horrible situation.

Could you say when this was?

The year was… what was that year?

About 1995, wasn’t it?

Yeah, it was about… we were retired. I think it was just before we were retired.

Yes.

We retired in ’97, so it was about ’95,’96 when the East High situation developed.

Yeah, the first meetings we went to with some, when they had interviews with the
newspaper, we ducked out so we wouldn’t be in the picture. But that only had to be for
about a year.

But then they banned all – as you may remember – they banned all school clubs, not just the
gay clubs, everything. And the irony of the whole thing is that Orrin Hatch had sponsored a
bill in congress years before that allowed bible clubs to meet after school. Well, we decided if
the bible clubs could meet after school, so could the gay-straight alliances. And we rented a
building, or we rented a room. Then West High wanted a group, but they couldn’t find any
faculty that felt comfortable to be the advisors. So, we were retired and totally out and
“saved” and they came to us and said, “Would you two guys be the advisors?” So, we said, after
some talk and thinking it through. I was more nervous in some ways than Dick was.

But, I had contact with students that age, so I knew what it was like.

Well, I was worried about the parents going ape. But they didn’t. But anyway, we served as
the advisors to the gay-straight alliance for about four years. And it was a wonderful
experience for us. And I think we helped some kids.

The kids that came there, a good majority of them, were in advanced programs that gave
them college credit. They were bright, capable kids.

Yeah, bright kids.

And I think, probably, it’s not, they’re gay, so therefore they’re bright. But it’s that – the kids
that came to the gay-straight alliance at that time were kids who had already broken the
mold.
They were pretty mature for being kids.

What I mean is, they were living a lifestyle very different than when we taught kids at that
time. And of course, most of them were out to their parents and it was okay at home, and
various things like that. It was remarkable, really good for kids. And they were very
courageous.

We had a school, or at least a faculty survey, met with the principal, who was very supportive.
I knew her when she was a principal at Granite, so that helped. But Joyce was very good to
work with. And I think the last year we were there, they’d included the gay-straight alliance in
the yearbook. So we thought that was a major step.

We followed that all the way through, until the courts finally decided that it was legal to
have a gay-straight alliance. Then, they could start in any school and they didn’t have to
rent and you could have the gay groups in the yearbook. We saw that movement from just
horrible fear amongst…

And we went to school board meetings and the school board wisely changed that stupid policy
that they’d enacted, so that all clubs were able to meet. And for a couple or three years we
had, I think, now the [Pride] center provides it, or someone sponsors it. They serve alternative
prom or whatever they call it.

We called it The Other Prom.

We called it The Other Prom. And we had them at the YWCA, didn’t we? And the kids would
decorate and kids would come from all over the area. It wasn’t just Salt Lake.

They choose how they came dressed. And they just…

Some of the things they wore were quite…

…they were very imaginative.

… they’d put condoms all over. Anyway, kids… and it was a fun experience.

As far as what we did in the gay-straight alliance, many people thought, well, what they
were doing in there was the teachers were recruiting. Here’s really how we managed it: we
said, “Okay, get in a circle here. You’re gonna brainstorm and I’m gonna write down. And
we’re gonna think of as many things as you can that you would like to do in this group.” So,
they made the list and then, after that, I said, “Okay, the group’s in charge, why don’t you
elect someone to be in charge.” And then they did. And then an elected group who’s going to
do activities, and that can be rotating, so what would – what I did after that was we just
pressed them. “Well, we’ve got a list of things. What are we going to do next time?”

So, it was really their leadership. Although, Dick and I knew a lot of folks by that time in the
community and we’d arrange, with their okay, approval to have these people come in and
speak. People from the AIDS foundation, the center…

Jackie Biscupski came and spoke…

… a variety of people that we felt needed to help these kids understand some things that were
happening. Keep in mind, this has been almost ten years, hasn’t it? I can’t believe it’s been that
long, but it’s been a while. So, I hope there are more gay-straight alliances in the schools.
We’ve sort of lost track and contact for a year or two after we left West High, because when
the school district changed its policy, then part of its policy is that it had to have an advisor
from the school where the club was meeting, so that took care of us, so we left. But after four
years it was time for somebody else to step up. But I don’t know if there’s one at West High
now. You may know.

As far as I know, there isn’t one at West. But I think one at East is still happening.

It’s still happening. Well, there should be one at every school in the country.

There should be. So after decades of not being able to reach out to queer kids at all,
you finally kind of vindicated yourselves.

Yeah. It was nice to be able to talk to, at least, a small segment of the population.

And of course there were girls as well as boys.

Oh, certainly. And the girls, in many ways, were more courageous than the boys. Possibly
because they maybe got less of the…

We had one young man who was, I think, a sophomore. He was in that advanced program.
One day we were meeting and then all of a sudden, here comes David, bursting into the
classroom, “Where’ve you people been? I’ve been looking all over this school for you. I’m gay
and I wanna meet with this group.” So we said, come on in. So his presence was always a very
interesting experience. And he’s a friend still. Now he’s in his twenties and involved in
different kinds of activism.

When we finished with the gay-straight alliance, we walked past the seminary and we’d say,
“That’s where it needs to be.”

That’s where it needs to be.

‘Cause that’s where the most mischief is going on.

Well, I was president of the seminary council or whatever they called it in school, because I
was such a good little boy. And I’m sure I wasn’t the only gay boy in that high school, even
though it was small and certainly in other seminaries around, but they’ll never, ever allow
gay-straight alliances – at least in my lifetime. I won’t say never, but, it’ll be a long time in
coming.

Alright so… we’ve got a couple other things to cover and only a little bit of time left.
So, do you wanna talk about your time in the Army, how you got involved with SAGE,
memories of the AIDS crisis, or anything else that you wanted to talk about?

Well, we were both in the service, because in our day, the draft was a very, very important part
of young mens’ lives. And we had gone to college and then gone on missions – the deferment, is
that what they called it? – we were 4-f for a while. But at least in Utah county, where I grew
up, there were stories – I don’t know how accurate – but stories of guys who’d come home
from their missions and there was a draft notice in the mailbox. That’s how badly we needed
people to be in the service. So, in order to continue our education, we both opted to join – Dick
joined the Air Guard and I joined the Army Guard unit. In fact, fifty years ago now, I was down
at Fort Ord, finishing up my basic training. Can’t believe…
When I was in high school, they would round up all the senior boys in the auditorium and
said, “Alright, everyone has to do this in some kind of service. So the options are, you can
join any of the military or you can be drafted or you can join the National Guard or you can
take ROTC.” And I looked at all the alternatives and I thought, “It’ll work for me if I do the
Air National Guard.” So, I attended Air National Guard meetings the whole time I was going
through college. Now, as I look back, I think that maybe, a quarter of the people who had
Guard unit, just very likely, were gay too.

And you were in the medical unit.

We were the medical unit but everyone was tightly locked into their closets in those days.

When about was this?

This was… I went there when I was 19, so that was 1959 when I had my basic training in the
Air Force. And then I put in about 10-15 years with them, going to meetings on weekends
and Summer camps. But they were really a terrific bunch of guys to be with and I enjoyed
that.

And I had two units. It was a six-year commitment: six months basic, and then five and a half
years of weekly meetings and then two weeks’ Summer camp every year, they called it. And
then when I was in BYU, graduating, finishing up, I was an American Fork engineer battalion
that was another story. Did not particularly like that. But when we moved to Salt Lake – and I
was married – but when we moved to Salt Lake to start graduate school, I transferred into a
medical unit, the 124th Evac Hospital, and that, like his, was really a very good experience. The
doctors, the other guys that were in the unit, many of them were in school at the University. It
was a high-caliber group of people. And I learned a lot about a lot of things, in terms of the
medical profession. But I was glad to be through, in six years. They wanted me to re-up and I
said, “if you made me a General in the Pentagon, I wouldn’t be in this Army. So, thanks but no
thanks.”

So right now there’s a lot of discussion around wanting to repeal Don’t Ask, Don’t
Tell; and this was before Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell was even passed.

Oh, long before.

What are your… I guess, how do you think that there was kind of an unspoken “don’t
ask, don’t tell” even before the legislation was passed?

Well, there was don’t ask don’t tell everywhere!

The situation with the services is you’d simply be bumped out. If they knew that you were
gay.

In fact, I think there was a thing on the application and stuff, wasn’t there?

Mm-hmm. They’d ask you.

You know, whether you had homosexual tendencies. Of course, I lied, I said no. But, if you
didn’t put “yes,” I think you’d certainly be questioned and if not exempted.

Disqualified.
So that was an actual question on an intake.

Right. It was. And of course, it’s…

That was the last part

… and it was a very sad thing, that over the years there have been highly qualified people
that were kicked out of the service simply because they were gay.

And I really think that once we get through this health reform mess that’s in Congress, that
before Obama finishes his first term…

We hope.

…we hope that Don’t Ask Don’t Tell will be a thing of the past.

And as far as, you know, men in the service being around gay guys, well, they were around
gay guys for a heck of a long time.

And if, you know, there’s any kind of inappropriate sexual behavior, the Army should deal with
that the way they do with inappropriate heterosexual behavior. Hopefully, there’ll be some
reasonable people in the military as well as the political establishment that will see that. And
as you know, maybe countries have no discrimination against gay people serving. I can’t
imagine anybody that would wanna be in the Army, but there are those who do. So they ought
to have the chance to serve, serve their country.

Sure. Alright… So we’ve talked a little bit about your opportunities as mentors in
your GSA involvements. Do you think that there were any points, any specific people
that you can point to that were mentors for you and your, either your coming out
process or just kind of in your – coming into yourself generally, that you can point to?

That’s a good question. What do you think?

Well, the fact that I’m searching through, is there someone who kind of was a model for me,
an example to follow, there wasn’t, that I can think of. And I think that was one of the most
difficult things for us.

Really isolated.

There wasn’t the language. We didn’t know any language; we didn’t have the concepts, as
far as homosexuality, that mention for. I never had even a notion that two men might live
together as a couple until I was in my mid-thirties.

It was just unheard of.

When I read it in an article in Time magazine, and I just was blown away by it. And so, as far
as knowing famous people, I’d heard that perhaps people like Tchaikovsky was gay and a
few things like that. But it was – there was practically nothing as far as someone who was
famous, someone who was respectable that was gay. To say, I had someone to model my
life on, I didn’t. It was only when I was thirty-nine and came out to myself and started
dealing with the issue that I read books and I read voraciously to understand what I’m
dealing with here, as far as homosexuality. I think there I became… get some idea of role
models. But it was only through literature.
I think as far as the AIDS crisis, it was around the late 80s when it became… well, first of all, it
was considered a gay man’s cancer or something. They didn’t even have a name for it.
HIV/AIDS came later. We were still married, so we really didn’t have that much contact with
the old Stonewall center that used to be uptown. I never went to that. We were at the
dedication of the Gay-Lesbian Center that you work in now, Jeremy, we were there when they
dedicated the building. But, again, we were out by then. But during the AIDS crisis, we really
– we weren’t identified as gay men, at least I; I won’t speak for you. I think Ed and I, a friend of
mine who’s gay, had Thanksgiving dinner and invited some men that didn’t have a place to go
for Thanksgiving. Most of them had AIDS, about five or six, and it was okay. It was a good
dinner and visit. Other than that, I really had very little involvement.

I think that probably because I was married and true to my partner through those years,
saved my life, because I was not an active gay person. So, in terms of numbers of gay people
our age, there are far fewer, because so many, such a huge number of them died. I would
look at the obituaries every day and I could spot them. Some man who was grateful for his
nieces and nephews and wasn’t married.

There were all these code words in the obituary.

All of these code words that you could pick up and you’d find about five of them.

There still are. But there used to be four or five a day. And now it’s rare.

It was just terrifying and we missed out on that, simply because we were closeted for such a
long time and stayed closeted so I could raise my kids, and I did that first. And then I came
out.

And because of our age, we missed an awful lot of experiences that younger gay men have; we
just didn’t. We still don’t go to gay bars very often. We have here and in California,
occasionally. But not very often. Now with SAGE, going there is a different experience,
because most of the people there are our age, a little younger maybe, a little older, but
essentially of our generation. And we all know what we’ve all sort of been through in a
general way. So there are, I think, there’s a lot of camaraderie, both men and women, and I’m
glad the center’s offering that. We’ve been to two of the three meetings – or three of the four, I
can’t remember. But as I told you before we started here, we’re going next week, in fact, to the
social and help with the Christmas baskets or something. So, I’m glad there’s that experience.
We’ve also been involved in the last eight, nine years, with the gay pride parade. Our church,
the First Unitarian church is a very welcoming congregation. Both the First church and South
Valley out this way. A lot of gay people attend – some stay, some don’t, but that’s typical.
People come and go. They’ve been very… it’s been a wonderful community hasn’t it? Dick’s
been attending for years and years. And I joined about fourteen, fifteen years ago. But
anyway, every year, we march and the interesting thing is that some years, we have more
straight people march than gay, in our Unitarian group. In fact, we’ve got the banner in there.
So we’re happy for that kind of support. They really are active people; they go up to the
legislature and attend the hearings.

Looking back over my life, because I didn’t come out until very late in life, I think that I
missed out on a whole lot. And in a way, I think, for a long time, I blamed it on the Mormon
church, that they stole my sexuality, because they told me how to lock myself into the closet
and never come out.

Well, the whole culture did. And then the Mormons took it beyond that.
But I talk to people who didn’t grow up in the Mormon culture and had a similar experience.
It was in the culture everywhere. But I really feel bereft in a certain way that I didn’t
experience being gay. I had an old man’s body when, eventually, that opportunity came
along.

We’ve both realized as we got together and started to meet other gay people, there’s a
chronological age – we know what that is. It’s easy to figure. But there’s a sort of “gay age”
and we’re still sort of boy scouts, because we just simply have not moved up the developmental
ladder, kind of thing. And at our age, we likely won’t. So that’s very different, I think, than
what most gay men go through now.

Hmm… That’s a really interesting point. So, actually, our time is almost up. But if you
want, let’s have a closing thought. If you could give – kind of following off of what
you’re saying – if you could give advice to, say, a gay youth who is either just coming
out or hasn’t come out yet or anything, you know, reflecting on your experiences:
things that you really enjoy that you did, things that were valuable for you, things that
you would’ve done differently, what kind of advice would you give them?

I certainly, I’d give them the advice of become as well-informed about the topic as you can.
And it’s not a difficult deal, now, because you can walk into any bookstore and there are
shelves and shelves of books, and on the computer, that I think that being educated about it
is an important thing. And also by reading, you can find good role models that way, as far as
what to do with your life. Something that I kind of reserve with some young gay men is that
once they come out of the closet, they just throw all of their notions of right and wrong to
the wind. The thing is, they should hang on to some of those things, because…

There’s a lot of risky behavior.

…there’s a lot of risky behavior in the gay community and we have to be cautious. And a lot
of the rules that we learned in Sunday school, you know, really apply.

And we understand because of the repression that many experience, that once they get a
certain degree of freedom, they just go kinda wild and probably would have, if it’d happen to
us in our twenties.

And so, I’d certainly suggest to young people: be selective about what you toss in gaining
your freedom, because some of those things, you’ll find, are valuable.

Well, we tell the kids at the gay-straight alliance, some were out and they had friends that they
associated with, and then others would give them some trouble – but they dealt with it pretty
well. Most of them were girls, to be honest. Though, we’d say, “hey, there is life after high
school. You don’t have to do a lot of this NOW. Well, some do and it works fine. But don’t feel
obligated that you have to come out when you’re sixteen. You’ve got a long way to go.” And
I’d still give that advice to kids. Be careful. Realize that it takes time for you to accept all this
in your own heart, mind and it’s gonna take time for your parents, friends, other associates
and some never will accept the fact that you are gay. Most, I think, more and more now do.
Like my daughter use say, when I talked to her, when I came out to five kids individually
(which is no fun), that she said, she was crying, “Dad, I don’t understand this. You know just
sort of heart broke… my heart breaks. How…” And I said, “Honey, I know,” because I was crying
too, “I’ve lived with this for over fifty years. I don’t understand it all either. But I know what is.
And that’s the reality that we deal with now.” And it can be painful, but there can be great
hope and joy and happiness that waits if you make sound decisions. Don’t go stampeding into
stuff that you later regret. Use some judgment. Now I’m preching.

That’s what I asked for.

I think that an interesting phenomenon that’s happened just recently. We had a

psychologist in Granite school district that…

I’d known her for years.

And she got in touch with Paul first, when she said, “I have an eighth-grader…

Yeah, a junior high kid.

… who told his class that he was gay. He just stood up and did it! And now he’s dealing with
all the repercussions from that and he’s going to counseling.” The schools didn’t know what
to do. So, we spent a lot of time with her and I shared lots of resources that might be
helpful.

And it’s been helpful to Jolene, and she’s sent us some very nice letters, kept us abreast. And
she said now, she’s “sort of become the gay counseling psychologist for the school.” Like, send
them to her! But here, junior high! He’s got a grandson that’s thirteen and he was here for his
birthday in October, and I sat there and looked at him, and thought “Young! You’re just a kid!”
You know. I don’t know that many thirteen, fourteen-year-olds that know that much about
themselves, or about anything, frankly. Some probably do, but most don’t. So, anyway. I
guess, my thing would be: take time, get with people that are supportive and loving and
contribute what you can to others.

Thank you. I think that’s an awesome point to end on. Sweet, yeah. Thank you guys
so much. This has been really amazing.

You’re most welcome. We’ve enjoyed meeting you and having you come to our home. You’re
always welcome, with or without cameras.

Thank you.