AINDRA PRABHU VRN.

My Last Conversation with Aindra Prabhu

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Last Conversation with Aindra Prabhu
By Dhanesvara Das
Since I first met him in 2004 it was my
custom to visit with Aindra Prabhu
each time that I went to India. Last year
was no different, and I knocked on his
door on 30 June 2010, not knowing
that this would be our last meeting.
Visiting Aindra was always a very
special occasion. He was a devotee
who didn’t wasted time, always was
preaching, and always spoke from his realization. And his
realizations were something extraordinary. I did have some
things I wanted to tell him this time, however-his book. An
electronic copy of it was passed to me some months earlier and I
wanted to make him aware that it was circulating, perhaps
against his wishes.
He had his own agenda however, and from the very beginning
he was pressing me: “When will you come back to Vrindavana
(even though I hadn’t even left yet!)? Will you be back for
Kartika? You should come back and stay in Vrindavana for
some time…” On and on he pressed these points, and he was
intense about it, and but at the same time very personal, and
clearly speaking for my welfare, like a concerned parent would
to their teenager. After we spoke a bit more I wanted to excuse
myself so as not to take too much of his time, but he wanted to
go on, and did go on-for several hours. Quite amazingly it
seemed that he knew exactly what I needed (and wanted) to hear
and he kept on with it. Moreover, there was an unmistakable
urgency to his message that touched me to the core. “There is no
time to waste. We don’t know how much time we have in this
world, and we should use every available minute for chanting
the holy names in japa and harinam. And we should do whatever
we can to live in Vrindavana. Vrindavana is such a special place
because in Vrindavana you get 1,000 times the benefit for your
devotional service than you do anywhere else.”
He had another intense lesson for me, repeatedly telling me that
raganuga bhakti was a separate path from vaidhi bhakti, and that
raganuga had to be intentionally cultivated as such. He went on
and on about this too, but he was speaking about things that I
was only partly familiar with, so remembering that I had my
MP3 recorder I thought that I should record him. So I turned it
on and he continued with his message. Here is (in part) what he
said:
“Sadhya bhakti refers to from the stage of bhava
onwards…means bhava and prema.
“This brahma bhuta prasanatma na sociti na kanksati, this idea
of being established on the brahma buta platform refers to this
verse in Bhagavad-gita where he says sa gunan samitiyaitan
brahma buyaya kalpate, transcending the modes of material
nature and coming to the level of brahman. But Prabhupada
establishes in one of his purports that that brahma buyaya
kalpate refers to the bhava platform. Which means that one isn’t
established above the influence of material nature until he comes
to the bhava platform. From the bhava platform, there, real
spontaneous devotional service begins. And this is described in
Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu where Rupa Goswami says that
actually real devotional service doesn’t begin until one comes to
the platform of spontaneous devotional service.
“Spontaneous devotional service means sadhya bhakti, not
sadhana bhakti. Raganuga is part of sadhana, not sadhya. This is
a common misunderstanding among devotees.
“Bhava is the beginning of the stage of sadhya…See the
problem is, I can show you, it will take some in-depth
discussion, but I can show you where in Prabhupada’s Nectar of
Devotion in one chapter there are six serious mistakes which
have, I don’t blame it on Srila Prabhupada, but whether Srila
Prabhupada read it or not, I don’t know, because it seems like he
would have caught the mistakes, but in the Spontaneous
Devotional Service chapter, instead of using the actual word
used by Rupa Goswami, ragatmika, the word raganuga has been
used. Which has created complete confusion among the vast
number of devotees in our society who think that raganuga is
something that happens after you have already gone to the
bauma lilas of Krishna, and you are following in the footsteps of
the eternal associates of Krishna, as a cowherd boy trainee in the
bauma lilas of Krishna. They have this conception that that is
what raganuga is all about, but it’s totally wrong.
“That conception has to change. At that stage it is ragatmika.
Those eternal associates of Krishna and those who are sadhana
siddhas and krpa siddhas, who come to the perfectional platform
of becoming eternal associates of Krishna, they are ragatmika.
Whereas raganuga refers to…if you study carefully the
Chaitanya-charitamrita, it is correct. But in the Nectar of
Devotion which was read long before, and first impressions are
lasting impressions, so you may not get beyond the confusion
because you are still harboring the misconception, so you don’t
catch it.
“But in Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu, Rupa Goswami, in his
description of the process of sadhana bhakti, he describes that
there are two margs. It’s not two levels, they are two paths of
sadhana bhakti. One is vaidhi sadhana marg, and the other is
raganuga sadhana marg. They are both sadhana bhaktis, and
they both begin from sraddha. There is adhua shraddha…and,
but one type of sraddha engenders vaidhi sadhana, and the other
type engenders… there is what is called shastra visvas maya
shraddha, vishvas means faith in the instructions or the
injunctions of the shastras. Do’s and don’ts. Prohibitions. It is
fear-based devotion based on the determination to hear shastric
injunctions in order to avoid repercussions by committing
offenses. That is vaidhi sadhana marg. And then there is raga
sadhana marg. What does raga mean? Raga means attraction.
“Actually Srila Prabhupada didn’t come to give vaidhi bhakti,
but to give raga bhakti. And this is described in Chaitanya-
siksamrita, and you should read it very carefully, that the
purpose of vidhi, rules, is to curtail one’s inordinate raga, or
attraction, for mundane rasas. So the viddhi is simply there to
force you to give up your attraction and attachment to mundane
rasas so that you stand a fighting chance. By the influence and
association of rasika Vaishnavas or raga bhaktas, they can help
you to become acquainted to Krishna Who is all-attractive. And
then when you become attracted to Krishna-lila then viddhi has
already served its purpose and is no longer relevant. But there is
a transitional stage where there are different degrees of the
necessity for the influence of viddhi and the influence of
attraction.
“It is very clear that there are two margs. One marg is based on
shastra vishvas maya shraddha and the other is based on lobha
maya shastra. Lobha means greed and greed is based on
attraction. So it depends on what kind of association you have. If
you are associating, and it depends on the receptivity, based on
previous accumulation of bhaktyam mukhe sukriti, from
previous lifetimes, which is based on the types of association
you had in previous lifetimes. If you associated with ritualistic
devotees in previous lives, then in this life you may be develop
this shartra vishvas maya shraddha to a large extent and be more
or less fixed up in your determination to follow vaidhi marg.
Whereas if in previous lives you had association with rasika
Vaishnavas then your natural receptivity toward the
attractiveness of Krishna, and unalloyed devotional service in
Krishna consciousness will engender lobha maya shraddha. This
shraddha is based on greed to attain something that you have
seen that is very attractive to you. You have high estimation to
something that is very attractive and wonderful that has allured
you to go beyond whatever would stand in your way to attain.
Therefore Bhaktivinoda Thakur says that the difference between
vaidhi marg and raga marg is that the vaidhi marg is very weak
whereas the raga marg is very strong. By vaidhi marg, on
account of the fact that you are lacking the attraction to the
actual objective, you are only adhering to the principles of
bhakti due to your fear of falling back into maya. And he says
that it will be a very long time and laborious process by
following the vaidhi marg to come from the stage of sraddha to
the stage of bhava.
“And not only that, but the bhava that is realized by doing vaidhi
bhakti is different from the bhava realized by raga. You wind up
with a ritualistic form of bhava, or what is called mayada bhakti,
or aisvarya jnana mayi bhakti. Whereas in the raga marg,
because of the force of attraction, the magnetism that one
experiences in coming with Krishna’s subject matter, which is
attracting your heart, when that greed evolves in your heart, then
naturally you don’t want anything to come between you and
your objective, and you can very quickly progress through the
stages anartha nivriti.
“This is described in Visvanatha’s Ragavartma Chandrika,
which is a very important book to read. There is one book called
“Bhakti Trilogy” that might include it. I can give you these
electronically. I have all these books.
“The point is that in Nectar of Devotion, in the chapter titled
“Spontaneous Devotional Service Further Described”, there is
no mistake as such, where they are improperly using the word
raganuga. It’s just that in the previous chapter you have read the
word raganuga, raganuga, raganuga, and you get this idea of
what raganuga is, but when you the next chapter you are
wondering what are we talking about here because he’s using
the same word raganuga to refer to something that is of a
different nature. So you must be thinking that this is raganuga
that is relative to term raganuga used in the previous chapter,
and then you are totally confused.
“I wish we could sit longer, maybe if you have time tomorrow,
and I can show you Banu Maharaja’s translation of Bhakti
Rasamrta Sindu. I first discovered this many years ago when I
read Banu Maharaja’s translation. In his translation the word
ragatmika is used, then I went back to Prabhupada’s and I saw
that there was a misuse of the terminology. And I realized that
that is where all the confusion is coming from.” Unfortunately at
this point the recorder battery was finished, but this significant
segment of the conversation was captured, and this is what I
wanted to share with the Dandavats readers. Aindra is absolutely
correct in this mistake that appears in the “Nectar of Devotion.”
The good news is that the correction has finally been made in
the most recent English edition, and I recently confirmed this
with Dravida Prabhu, the BBT editor. The bad news is that this
mistake has been promulgated in the translations of NOD
because they are all based on the English book. I have checked
the Lithuanian book (where I am right now) and the mistakes are
there. So I want to encourage all devotees who have friends in
non-English speaking countries to tell them to correct these
mistakes so that the confusion is not perpetuated. Two Different
Paths? At first I was confused by Aindra’s statements that
vaidhi-bhakti and raganuga-bhakti were two different paths,
because Srila Prabhupada repeatedly and clearly makes it clear
that one must follow vaidhi-bhakti until he has reached the stage
of anartha-nivritti, being free from the impulse and desire to
commit sinful activity. I needed to think this through carefully
and research it. As I did it became clear that he was making the
point that after one reaches anartha-nivritti one needs to
intentionally take up the path of raganuga, not in-place of, but as
far as necessary, along with vaidhi bhakti. This instruction is
given by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur in “Sri Caitanya-
siksamrita”:
“There is another type of sadhana bhakti besides vaidhi bhakti.
It is called raganuga bhakti. Previously it was said that there are
two ways of pleasing the Lord: by following rules and by
attraction. It is necessary to differentiate between these two.
That system of worship of the Lord that is executed through a
sense of duty is called vaidhi bhakti. Rules that are executed
through consideration of a sense of duty are called “vidhi.” The
tendency that operates through a natural taste is called “raga”"
To be completely and spontaneously absorbed in some object is
called “raga.”
“The object pursued by raga is called the desired object. In the
activities of raga there is no necessity of consideration or
deliberation of what to do or what not do. Raga is a natural
propensity. The raga exhibited by the soul in a conditioned state
is a perversion due to false bodily identification, and the
perverted raga accepts material things as its objects. Directing
this raga towards flowers, food, drink, intoxicants, clothing,
shelter, or lover, the living entities end up in a world of illusions.
For this reason the conditioned souls are situated far apart from
raga directed to the Lord. Since bhakti instigated by raga is
therefore very rare, it is necessary to consider carefully what is
beneficial and detrimental in worshipping the Lord. From this
consideration arises rules or vidhi.
“The rules monitor the state of raga. Rules are not an opposing
party to raga. Rules may be called ritual and raga may be called
spontaneous attachment. Though they are different conceptions,
in the pure state they are one. Rules in their pure state are
assistants to raga. Pure raga follows the rules, which are the will
of the Lord. For the Lord, the rules predominate, and for the
jivas, raga predominates. The opposition of raga and vidhi seen
in the material world is due to the unhealthy condition of raga.
When raga recuperates, vidhi, having fulfilled its function,
retreats. Therefore, in the healthy state raga predominates for the
jiva. As much as raga for material things leads to degradation, so
raga for the Lord becomes the highest condition of existence.
The relation of raga with vidhi is like the relation of the body to
medicine. Raga has many functions, but vidhi’s function is to
protect and nourish raga. When raga is thoroughly nourished, it
does not depend on vidhi any longer.
“Pure raga for the Lord takes shelter of only the pure soul, a soul
who has been liberated from material contamination. That pure
raga is called ragatmika bhakti. Only pure souls, who participate
in the Lord’s pastimes, are qualified for ragatmika bhakti; none
except the inhabitants of Vraja are qualified. When conditioned
souls, by hearing the descriptions in the scriptures, develop a
desire to follow after the inhabitants of Vraja who offer
ragatmika bhakti to Krsna, the bhakti that results is called
raganuga. The inspiration for this bhakti is greed for its object,
not rules or scriptural guidelines. The rules, by various methods,
attempt to stimulate the nature of the soul. When greed becomes
the impetus for those rules, it is no longer called vaidhi bhakti,
but raganuga bhakti. Thus there are two types of sadhana bhakti:
vaidhi and raganuga.
“That person who becomes greedy to attain the emotional state
in which the ragatmika devotees serve Krsna is qualified for
raganuga bhakti. Raganuga bhakti includes all the same angas as
vaidhi bhakti, but the devotee of raganuga bhakti performs those
activities with a spontaneous mood, rather than by rule. The
conditioned soul living in the world must necessarily carry out
physical, mental and social activities to maintain his body.
Those rules mentioned in the discussion of vaidhi bhakti, which
serve to keep the devotee on the path of devotion and prevent
him from becoming materially contaminated, must also be
followed by the practitioners of raganuga bhakti.
“The practice of raganuga is internal, so what external rules
should the person follow?
[Devotees! Please note this next important paragraph!]
“If devotees do not accept all the necessary rules of vaidhi
bhakti which serve to make them fit for practicing internally,
they will finish their life untimely or revert to material life, and
reduce their propensity for raga. If the manner of cultivating
devotion is not accepted in full, internal practice cannot be
maintained or grow. Interest in raganuga may grow, but the
angas of bhakti, such as hearing and chanting should not be
given up.
“Just as in vaidhi bhakti, the rules of naitika dharma mature and
change shape, so also, in raganuga bhakti, the rules of vaidhi
bhakti change slightly in emotional content and display some
independent qualities. In some circumstances the rules change
slightly, and in other cases they transform entirely. This will be
apparent from observing the conduct of the devotee. These
changes do not arise from scripture, but according to the taste of
the individual, and thus examples are hard to give. Examples can
only be given for vaidhi bhakti.” This quotation should be
sufficient to make the point perfectly clear. Please note the
corrections to the Nectar of Devotion and make them in your
copy. I did get the opportunity to tell Aindra about his book and
he was more concerned whether the one circulating was the final
copy of the book. Apparently he had made some changes that
were important to him, and if anything was going to circulate he
wanted it to be the final edition. In any case the paper edition is
available and it is such a lovely and artistic book, both in the
printing and case, as well as the language, which can only be
Aindra’s. I love it. Alas, I didn’t go back the next day as I had
made a hasty arrangement to return to Delhi that morning. But I
was ecstatic about our conversation and was so much looking
forward to meeting with Aindra again to continue the discussion.
Sadly, that was the last conversation. He knew he was going to
leave this world soon, and he said as much in his book. Perhaps
that was why he spoke to me in such an urgent mood.
Dhanesvara Das
www.spiritual-econ.com http://spiritual-econ.blogspot.com
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Last Conversation with Aindra Prabhu

Comments • [comment feed]

1
Dear Dhanesvara Prabhu, pranams.
Thank you so much to share this most fortunate conversation
with all the readers of Dandavats. It is one of those posts that
deserve the mention “MUST READ”.
We remain hungry for more of such nectarean exchanges.
Million thanks.
May you realize all that you heard. Thanks again. Hare Krishna.
Your humble servant,
Prabhava Vigraha dasa
Comment posted by Prabhava Vigraha das on February 1st,
2011

2
Dear Dhanesvara Prabhu,
Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Please note: the errors in The Nectar of Devotion that Aindra
Prabhu mentions in the third and fourth paragraphs of this
transcript have been corrected by the BBT.
“For the latest printing of The Nectar of Devotion, at the
beginning of chapter 15 the BBT’s editors have six times
changed the word raganuga to ragatmika.”
For more details see:
http://www.bbtedit.com/node/278
Your servant,
Acyuta Dasa
Comment posted by acyutadasa.nrs on February 1st, 2011

3
This is a very passionate discussion by empassioned bhaktas. I
will not stand on the tracks when that train is passing! However,
in a general way, I want to try to emphasize several points. First,
it is stated that Srila Prabhupad “did not come to give vaidhi
bhakti”. Quite to the contrary, Srila Prabhupad instituted vaidhi
bhakti. He wanted to give the medicine that is needed to draw
the conditioned souls out from a life of useless sense
gratification, into a life of serving Krishna. He certainly was
very cautious about bhaktas trying to leap into Braja lila when
they are not qualified. For example, when some tried to start a
“gopi bhava club” at the LA temple in the mid-1970s, Srila
Prabhupad criticized thusly (I was his secretary then): “What is
this gopi bhava club?! Let them chant Hare Krishna for 300
years first, then talk of the gopis!” He was very cautious about
sahaja-ism creeping into the mix. Vrindaban today is notorious
for sahaja-ism.
Now, the consideration of raganuga bhakti is something that
Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur Prabhupad alluded to by
saying that “it should be taken upon one’s head as a worshipable
ideal.” Generally, that is a proper mood to consider. One should
not try to prematurely enter into a stage on the mental or
emotional plane, when these planes are clearly transcendental
and virtually inconceivable to the conditioned soul. The
exchange of love with Krishna in Goloka is fully Krishna
centric. For example, when Krishna calls the gopis with His
flute, the gopis drop whatever they might be doing, in whatever
condition of dress they might be in, and go to Krishna. The
gopis are fully conscious of pleasing Krishna, without any desire
for self-enjoyment. Their forgetfulness of self for absorption in
Krishna consciousness is a sign of their extreme love…that
Krishna asked Uddhava to visit Vrindaban to witness. Uddhava
concluded that he would want to become a blade of grass in
Vraja so he might be blessed by the dust of the lotus feet of the
gopis. Whatever name you give to it, this is a worshipable state.
Pusta Krishna das
Comment posted by pustakrishna on February 2nd, 2011

4
Dear Pustakrishna prabhu, please accept my humble obeisances.
All glories to Srila Prabhupada! All glories to the years of your
dedicated service to our Founder-Acarya!
Thank you for emphasizing the importance of following rules. I
think that every serious member of ISKCON is aware of its
importance. Moreover, even the devotees that are emphasizing
importance of raganuga-sadhana, like Radhakunda and Aindra
prabhus, never broke the rules and never preached against the
rules. The rules and regulations are called sadhana in sanskrit.
Raganuga-bhakti is as much a sadhana as vaidhi-bhakti is and
not a perfected stage that you are perhaps refering to. It has its
clear rules, which are not against the rules of vaidhi-bhakti. The
problem is, that the vaidhi-bhakti is not giving the same result as
raganuga-bhakti, i.e. it is not giving Krishna prema as far as my
understanding. Please correct me if I understood NOD or CC
wrongly on this matter. The other problem is that ragatmika and
raganuga-bhakti are often taken as same thing by ISKCON
devotees, because of the problems of early Nectar of Devotion
editions (it has been corrected in newest edition by BBT). The
example you are giving with gopis responding to Krishna flute
falls into category of ragatmika-bhakti and not raganuga-
sadhana. Raganuga-sadhana means trying to reach the same
perfection (raga) as one of the eternal associates of Krishna. So
it is a way, not the goal. My understanding is that raganuga-
sadhana is sadhana with rules and regulations as much as vaidhi-
sadhana, but motives and goals are different, to put it very
simple. In raganuga-sadhana there is drive from within, not from
outside as in the vaidhi-bhakti. That means that disciple is
becoming more mature, independently thoughtful and
responsible and that is what Srila Prabhupada wanted, isn’t it?
Some taste is already there.
Our raganuga-sadhana comprises not of siddha-pranali, but of
intense chanting (certainly more then 16 rounds) and
remembering Krishna. So it means more intense sadhana with a
specific goal in relationship to our eternal service in Goloka-
dhama which will be revealed only by that sadhana and not
vaidhi-bhakti. I am not preaching against vaidhi-bhakti and its
importance. I would just like to see that both paths are put in
right perspective. Thank you very much for considering these
points.
With Love
Your humble servant
Dhira Nitai das, Croatia/Germany
Comment posted by Dhira Nitai das on February 5th, 2011

5
Thank you so much Dhanesvara Prabhu for sharing this precious
talk by His Grace Aindra Prabhu. The points made about the two
aspects of sadhana bhakti, vaidhi and raganuga bhakti, are really
essential. We should’nt be just satisfied by “getting the job
done” we should
be greedy after developing “internal devotional service” (as
Aindra Prabhu reminded us) and more spontaneous love for the
Lord.
Of course we should be very cautious about any deviation from
the general rules of vaidhi bhakti and keep ourselves away from
sahajism tendencies but simultaneously we should be greedy for
getting the “nectar for which we are always anxious” . This is
Lord Chaitanya Mouvement and it is based on developping love
of God. It is not enough to simply follow the rules (altough it is
essential if we want to reach gradually to a higher platform of
spontenous devotional service) we should be greedy after getting
a taste of love of God or bhava (even if it is a very small drop
for most of us).
Srila Prabhupada certainly “instituted vaidhi bhakti” but
simultaneously expected from his disciples (and grand disciples)
that they reached a more spontaneous platform regarding their
relation with Krishna. When asked “what pleases you the most,
Srila Prabhupada?” by one of his disciple, Srila Prabhupada
answered “If you love Krishna”. This should be the goal - and
nothing else - behind every field of activity in the Krishna
consciousness Mouvement.
Comment posted by jagadananda2 on February 5th, 2011

6
The subtle point I shall try to put forward for a simple
understanding. On the deepest level of bhakti, one is not at all
self conscious, but rather fully absorbed in ecstatic love for
Krishna. It is all for Krishna, no hint of self-absorption.
Sometimes, and of course this science is promoted by none other
than Srila Rupa Goswami, one thinks in a more academic or
analytical manner to define where they are or where they are
headed. Raganuga is spontaneous inside out flow of devotional
service, whereas Vaidhi is imposed by rules imposed. All rules,
as Srila Rupa Goswami describes culminate in this: Always
remember Krishna, never forget Krishna. All of this becomes
“jnana sunya bhakti”, loving serving without a tint of jnana, in
the divine state of Krishna consciousness as revealed in Braja
lila. The property of Krishna bhakti in its highest state is: All for
Krishna. It is as if one is depositing in the bank of Krishna, and
expecting no dividend return from Krishna. The gopis criticize
Krishna for leaving them because their loving sentiment of
separation draws out their loving exchange with Krishna
whether He is visible before them or not. The rasa of exchange
in madhurya is like that. And, it is worshipable by us. The major
point is this: Do not try to consider your self as a gopi, to imitate
them. No, No, No. Rather, meditate on their fine sentiments and
lila. Take it upon your head. Avoid cheapening by drawing this
down to our conditioned level of mental and emotional
processing. That would be sahaja-ism. It is condemned by our
acharyas. If one will one time in history be invited into that state
of transcendental loving service, that is wonderful and divine.
But, if you are thinking that “you” will enjoy that state, it is not
suddha-bhakti, but mixed. It is best if you take a lower
position…Always. “No, this cannot be it”. This will protect you
from again becoming the ‘center’, rather than Krishna, the
reservoir or love and joy, as the center. Remember, always
deposit, never expect a dividend…and if you receive a dividend,
then deposit that as well. I hope this clarifies what I am trying to
share. With affection for our wonderful family of bhaktas, Pusta
Krishna das
Comment posted by pustakrishna on February 5th, 2011

7
Dear Pusta Krishna Prabhu,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila
Prabhupada. Thank you for your efforts to clarify things. You
are quite right that any sadhaka who is attempting to enjoy
Krishna’s lila is engaged in mixed devotional service. We must
be careful to note that the enjoying mentality must be abandoned
*before* the sadhaka can achieve the stage of anarta nivriti. The
acharyas caution that one may only begin their bhajan (internal
devotional service of raganuga bhakti) *after* they have
achieved the stage of anarta nivriti, otherwise they risk grave
offenses, becoming guilty of the sahaja-ism that you warn about.
Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur makes it clear that raganuga bhakti is
not a “spontaneous inside-out flow of devotional service” as you
suggest, but a stage of sadhana (see above: “There is another
type of sadhana bhakti besides vaidhi bhakti. It is called
raganuga bhakti.”) or practice, based on attraction, not rules.
That spontaneous devotional service, as demonstrated by Sri
Krishna’s most intimate associates who are nitya-siddhas, is
ragatmika bhakti. The distinction between these two is very
important and is exactly the point that Aindra Prabhu was
forcefully making to me, because if these two are confused then
we cannot avoid misunderstanding the process of sadhana.
Raganuga sadhana is indeed a meditation on the sentiments and
lila of the gopis, and in the practice of raganuga bhakti one does
indeed meditate on their own participation in Krishna’s lila as a
follower of the manjaris, serving Radha-Krishna in their daily
eight-fold pastimes until they completely identify with that
spiritual body. This practice is explicitly explained by Srila
Bhaktivinoda Thakur in Sri Caitanya-siksamrita, and the Thakur
recommends that “as this process is by nature very esoteric, the
devotee, being spotless in character, should learn it from a well-
qualified guru.” This important book should be studied
thoroughly by those interested in understanding the complete
path of sadhana bhakti that ultimately culminates in pure love of
God.
We also extend your caution that the serious sadhaka must
carefully follow the process of sadhana as given by the acharyas,
and not try to jump ahead, which will certainly lead to an
unfortunate result.
Your servant,
Dhanesvara Das
Comment posted by Dhanesvara on February 6th, 2011

8
Dear Prabhus, pranams. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Please
accept our following comments wth a pinch of simplistic humor
and… seriousness.
Just like learning any profession or craft, we have to learn our
basics, or the fundamentals of our intended trade. Same applies
to our practice of bhakti. Remaining humble and eager to hear,
we may be ready for our first three lessons.
Lesson no 1: we are not the center. Krishna is the center. We are
meant to serve Him, appreciating Him as the Supreme Enjoyer.
We enjoy only when we satisfy Him always first.
Lesson no 2: keep practicing bhakti-yoga untill you grasp lesson
no 1 right. Then and only then, move on to lesson no 3 if you
think yourself fit to handle it.
Lesson no 3: Marvel that there is no need of any more lessons
other than lessons 1 and 2 as ever. From that point on it is on-
going causeless mercy taking place on the spiritual platform.
Yours to discover.
“The spiritual entities are meant for enjoyment, as stated in the
Vedanta-sutra (1.1.12): ananda-mayo ‘bhyasat. By nature and
constitution, every living being — including the Supreme Lord
and each of His parts and parcels — is meant for eternal
enjoyment. The living beings who are encaged in the material
tabernacle are constantly seeking enjoyment, but they are
seeking it on the wrong platform. Apart from the material
platform is the spiritual platform, where the Supreme Being
enjoys Himself with His innumerable associates. On that
platform there is no trace of material qualities, and therefore that
platform is called nirguna. On the nirguna platform there is
never a clash over the object of enjoyment. Here in the material
world there is always a clash between different individual beings
because here the proper center of enjoyment is missed. The real
center of enjoyment is the Supreme Lord, who is the center of
the sublime and spiritual rasa dance. We are all meant to join
Him and enjoy life with one transcendental interest and without
any clash. That is the highest platform of spiritual interest, and
as soon as one realizes this perfect form of oneness, there can be
no question of illusion (moha) or lamentation (soka).” —Srila
Prabhupada’s purport of Sri Isopanisad, mantra 7.
The whole idea it to get off the bodily platform and on to the
spiritual platform. Then we may be fit for higher service. In any
case, we will only remain eternal servants. That alone is the
basis of our satisfaction in all humility.
Comment posted by Prabhava Vigraha das on February 6th,
2011

9
As Pustakrishna in No 6 puts it:
“All of this becomes “jnana sunya bhakti”, loving serving
without a tint of jnana, in the divine state of Krishna
consciousness as revealed in Braja lila”
The words jnana-sunya are meant to completely eradicate any
consciousness of the impersonal aspect of the supreme, and not
the kind of knowledge of relationships (sambandha-jnana)
which is favorable to the attainment of pure devotional service,
nor the knowledge of actual execution the service itself (bhakti-
rasa-jnana), and knowledge or arts for example.
Comment posted by ccd on February 7th, 2011

10
This discussion was very deep to begin with, and it has remained
deep throughout. I genuinely appreciate the sentiments. As
always, when I have but a small of mercy, such discussions
bring up a sense of lalasmayi or yearning for the purity of
devotional service. I very much appreciate the maturity of
comments, and I want to second the comments of His Grace
Prabhava Vigraha #8. Again, I want to caution progressive
bhaktas what I have commented upon in #3 above…don’t be
eager to jump into a mental concoction of higher service just to
think that you have arrived. I remember at the Mayapur festival,
one American brahmacary wanted to go out into the field several
hundred yards away from the one and only building that stood
there so that he could chant Hare Krishna day and night. Srila
Prabhupad cautioned him not to do that. The young man
persisted in his obsession anyway, built a small lean to, and
went out into the field to begin his ‘babaji’ lifestyle. He lasted
less than 24 hours, disappeared, and was not heard from again.
Lesson: to leapfrog into an esoteric or advanced stage of Krishna
consciousness by ‘appearances’ only, will lead to disaster.
It is wise to be patient, and await the Causeless Mercy of the
Lord, as Prabhava Vigraha has referred to above. The example
of the Cakora bird is always good to remember…if mercy or joy
will come from the divine side, it may be drank, and anything
from the mundane side should be rejected or tolerated without
taking that in to the treasure that is your Krishna consciousness.
For Dhanesvara das, I can’t help but feel a knot in my heart
when I hear him describe that one must have a qualified guru to
teach the esoteric side of bhakti. Certainly, I understand what he
is trying to express, but we have seen the efforts that Srila
Narayan Maharaj put forth to convince those attracted to him
that he was just such a ‘rasic guru’. Please! Let us not encourage
anything like this in ISKCON. Speak from realization! I too
have read Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur’s works, and the final part
of Jaiva Dharma is indeed perplexing and undigestible. If it will
come by Krishna’s mercy, by grace of His internal potency,
Srimati Radharani or Her representative, so be it. Otherwise,
Srila Prabhupad advised not to indulge in some of the esoteric
vaishnava writings. Krishna will preserve what you have…and
give you what you need. Don’t ‘reach’ for it yourself, my
advice. Pusta Krishna das
Comment posted by pustakrishna on February 9th, 2011

11
Pusta Krishna Prabhuji, those are Srila Bhaktivinoda’s words,
not mine. He writes that sahajiyas were many in his day, yet he
didn’t include so many caveats or disclaimers. Whatever else
there may have been, there was one Gaura Kisora Das Babaji,
and that was all that was needed. In this regard little changes
over the years. Whatever else may be going on says nothing
about the presence of a suitable and qualified personality who
may be sent by Sri Krishna to bring His devotees closer to His
personal loving service. Let’s be careful not throw the baby out
with the bath water.
In any case your point is well made and I agree wholeheartedly
that we should not artificially try to become something we are
not. Further, it is not necessary. We have a powerful process of
sadhana, which, when followed correctly, will bring us to the
stage of anarta-nivritti, and nistha, the proper time to enter into
the practice of the other stage of sadhana—raganuga. Correct
following means to understand that nothing can be achieved
artificially. By patient practice the dirt is removed from the heart
and we advances to the next stage. This is not an impossible
goal that must remain forever out of our reach. We should
earnestly strive to achieve the stages of bhakti one after the
other, step by step, being confident that if we follow properly we
will be successful.
Comment posted by Dhanesvara on February 11th, 2011
12
Part 2
Causeless mercy is of course necessary, but we should not think
that the loving force of bhakti, lobha, is a sort of transcendental
lotto, where we passively wait to see if we have are the lucky
one with the winning number. It is an active process and our
acharyas have given us the clear and concise science of bhakti. If
we follow the science properly we will get the proper result. We
must have faith in that. At the same time we pray to the Lord for
his mercy. We must pay close attention to our progress, and if
we are not getting the result that is expected we need to examine
the details of our practice, determine what we are doing wrong,
and correct it. Failure to do this is will cause our progress to be
very slow, or cause us to think that progress is a function of
mercy alone. As Aindra Prabhu puts it “it is a gradual process,
but it doesn’t have to be that gradual.” The esoteric writings
were written because they are required at the proper stage. When
the sadhaka has achieved the proper stage, they become his next
step. This is exactly what Aindra was endeavoring to make clear
to me, and it is this that I desired to pass to others in writing this
piece.
I do believe that Aindra Prabhu spoke from his realization, and
hearing his lectures or reading his book indicates that his
realization was considerable. His expressions, as well as his
exhortations to me, indicate that it is indeed possible for us
“ordinary devotees” to achieve that lofty peak of Love of God in
this life. After all, isn’t that why Srila Prabhupada began this
Movement? He said that if just one devotee achieves that
pinnacle he would consider his effort a success. But why just
one? While he may settle for one, he certainly hoped for a
greater result. Why not hundreds, or thousands, and even more?
After all, there are tens-of-thousands of devotees in this
movement. The attainment of Krishna prema has become our
birthright with our second birth. It is not impossible. Indeed, it is
our destiny.
Aspiring to one day be a humble servant,
Dhanesvara Das
Comment posted by Dhanesvara on February 11th, 2011

13
In #9 above, CCD, I believe Chaitanya Charitamrita das,
discusses jnana-sunya bhakti which I brought up in #6. I hope to
try to clarify this as best we can understand. In the spiritual
plane of Vaikuntha and Goloka, the bhakta (one who is
maintained by God), is exchanging love with his/her Lord. In
Vaikuntha, there may be some recognition that Lord Vishnu is
God. This is not to be denigrated. Those bhaktas have that
eternal disposition of service with the particular form of Lord
Vishnu that they are serving.
However, that knowledge is covered by yogamaya, the internal
potency of Krishna, in Goloka, by Krishna’s desire. Such
bhaktas, as we hear about in Krishna-lila in Vrindaban, may be
oblivious and unconcerned that Krishna is God. He is however
their All in All, their Friend, Lover, Child, Master, etc…raso vai
sah. Krishna enjoys exchange of love in this manner with these
category of bhaktas. In fact, hrishikesha hrishikena sevanam,
Krishna has expanded His senses as He has expanded Himself
into jiva-souls. This transcendental loving service is fully
spiritual and in the realm of the spiritual environment, beyond
the illusory environment of the apara-prakriti. Service with love
and ecstatic exchange is taking place, and Sri Chaitanya
Mahaprabhu tries to give us the understanding that it is not dry
or boring, but rather ever-expanding, anandam budhi vardanam.
The ocean of bliss is ever increasing. The bhaktas are fully
spiritual and absorbed in Krishna consciousness. It is not
sadhana or practice, but rather the eternal unconditioned activity
of the soul.
So, jnana-sunya bhakti is not related to the “sunyavadi” or
anything like that, but rather, the bhakti is not tinged or tainted
or diluted or even disturbed by realization that Krishna is
God…it would distract Mother Yashoda from caring for Krishna
to know that He is maintaining everything and everyone. After
all, she is His mother. Krishna sometimes will play with the
devotee, as He does when He is accused of eating dirt and
Mother Yashoda sees fantastic realities within His ’small
mouth’. Charming, loving, ecstasy for the devotee and for
Krishna, such intimate rasa is the attraction of the fortunate jiva
souls who are accepted into the realm of Goloka Vrindaban.
Pusta Krishna das
Comment posted by pustakrishna on February 12th, 2011

14
Raga or that spontaneous stage is for one who has first realised
he is not the body or the brahma-bhuta platform.That is where
that lobha arises.That true greed is something of the soul beyond
some psychological or sentimental adjustment.So for a
conditioned soul or sadhaka who has not awakened this
preliminary stage of liberation or self realisation there is no
question of raga or those associated practices.Is this not a simple
point?A brahma-bhuta realised soul is rare indeed,isn’t he? He
alone is qualified for pure Devotional service.Otherwise
jumpimg the gun would surely contain the danger of
sahadjism.Not yet eligible!
Thanks prabhus for your very interesting and helpful points.
ysvt.
Chapter 18. Conclusion–The Perfection of Renunciation
TEXT 54
brahma-bhutah prasannatma
na socati na kanksati
samah sarvesu bhutesu
mad-bhaktim labhate param
TRANSLATION
One who is thus transcendentally situated at once realizes the
Supreme Brahman. He never laments nor desires to have
anything; he is equally disposed to every living entity. In that
state he attains pure devotional service unto Me.
PURPORT
To the impersonalist, achieving the brahma-bhuta stage,
becoming one with the Absolute, is the last word. But for the
personalist, or pure devotee, one has to go still further to become
engaged in pure devotional service. This means that one who is
engaged in pure devotional service to the Supreme Lord is
already in a state of liberation, called brahma-bhuta, oneness
with the Absolute. Without being one with the Supreme, the
Absolute, one cannot render service unto Him. In the absolute
conception, there is no difference between the served and the
servitor; yet the distinction is there, in a higher spiritual sense.
In the material concept of life, when one works for sense
gratification, there is misery, but in the absolute world, when
one is engaged in pure devotional service, there is no misery.
The devotee in Krsna consciousness has nothing to lament or
desire. Since God is full, a living entity who is engaged in God’s
service, in Krsna consciousness, becomes also full in himself.
He is just like a river cleansed of all dirty water. Because a pure
devotee has no thought other th
Comment posted by nrsingha8 on February 15th, 2011

15
There is one important point and that is that Srila
Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur first finished his vow of
chanting the Hare Krishna mantra a billion times. Then he
started his preaching mission. It took 30 years for Srila
Prabhupada to perfect his chanting (I heard this was his personal
statement) and then he started his preaching mission. My
observation is that importance of having the taste for the Holy
Names, perfecting personal sadhana and attaining genuine
realizations “by hook or by crook” and then going out to preach
is not stressed enough for our leaders. Aindra Prabhu is doing
great service in this matter to our society. Only then will our
preaching be really accepted by Krishna and common people at
large.
Your humble servant
Dhira Nitai das
Comment posted by Dhira Nitai das on February 19th, 2011

16
If I may be so bold as to summarize this very important
exchange, the bhaktas desire to go forward with eagerness into
Krishna consciousness. They have a foundation of faith, and
they are hankering for further progress toward the ultimate goal
of “prema-bhakti”. And, each of the contributors to this
discussion have emphasized that this is not a mental or
emotional, and therefore materially contrived state. It is a natural
evolution of Krishna consciousness. It may take place in an
instant, or it may take place over many lifetimes, but we have
confidence that it must take place in due course by the grace of
Sri Gurudeva and Sri Krishna. What has been written by the
bhaktas, Srila Rupa Goswami or Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur,
must be factual.
Indeed, it is a narrow path at that point. It is good to refrain from
being an enjoyer at these lofty stages of bhakti. As I mentioned
above, if you take a cautious position, “no, this cannot be it”,
you will refrain from jumping into dangerous territory. When
you arrive at the transcendentally gifted position of love for
Krishna, surcharged by the Hladini Shakti personified as Srimati
Radharani plans to increase Krishna’s pleasure through Her
service, immersed in that natural position which the jiva soul
was created to participate in, then Krishna’s interest will of
course predominate, and we may be so fortunate to again meet
those transcendentally generous souls to further guide us in the
art of loving and serving Krishna as He desires.
Srila Rupa Goswami promotes enthusiasm, determination, and
patience, as the three pronged formula by which to proceed. So,
enthusiasm and determination must be tempered by patience,
that is, awaiting the mercy of the Lord or Lord’s representative.
Hoping that this exchange has not offended anyone, as we
always risk this when discussing such high topics, especially
when an epiphany has stimulated the discussion, as it has. Hare
Krishna. Pusta Krishna das
Comment posted by pustakrishna on February 21st, 2011

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