Gambling Wizards: Conversations w

Greatest Gamblers
Richard W. Munchkin
Acknowledgments
I must thank the people who so graciously opened their homes and the
In addition, my heartfelt thanks to:
Anthony Curtis and Deke Castleman, for tirelessly pushing to make this
Jake Jacobs, for his notes on bridge and backgammon.
Max Rubin, who encouraged me by saying, "If I can write a book, anyo
Abble Engel, who is a movie producer in mind, but a gambler at heart.
Fred (whose real name is Andy), for putting the best eyes in the busines
Bill B., who provided me with the best writer's retreat an author could h

Contents
Billy Walters
Chip Reese
Tommy Hyland
Mike Svobodny
Stan Tomchin
Cathy Hulbert
Alan Woods
Doyle Brunson
Index of Notes
Glossary

Introduction
Tommy Hyland lands at McCarran International Airport in Las Vegas
off to one of the grandest casinos on the Strip. He checks into a huge suit
fruit basket greet him as he walks in. His host has made reservations for
ringside seats for a championship fight. The casino pays for all of this bec
don't know is that Tommy Hyland is a professional gambler.
Alan Woods sits in his penthouse apartment in Hong Kong watching c
as he taps at the keyboard. Across the room another screen blinks with th
American stock market. The stock market is where he does his "gambling."
job—betting on horse racing. He rarely ventures out of his apartment. His l
or computer programmer. But he, too, is a professional gambler.
Doyle Brunson sits in a poker room in Las Vegas. He studies the peo
crack in their game, looking for a weakness. He'll sit, Buddha-like, for
however long it takes to get the money. He just sits in smoke-filled rooms
His style and pace are different from Tommy's and Alan's, yet Doyle, too, i
Who are these people who fly around the world making millions of
games? What is it in someone's character that allows him or her to risk hun
single bet? And what separates the professional gambler from the losers a
broke? The answers to these and other questions are what I set out to lea
professional gamblers.
I've been fascinated with gambling and gamblers since I was a child, an
and poker player since high school. It was through backgammon that I fi
book more than twenty years ago. The idea for this book came to me w
Woods. I was watching him work and realized he was, without question, on
in recorded history, yet nothing has ever been written about him. Woul
Fortunately, he did.
I then decided to include a cross-section of gambling pros and their spe
sports bettor, a blackjack player, and a poker player. These games are whe
won.
I also included backgammon, another big-money game. The biggest b
Mike Svobodny, whom I've known for twenty-some years. This guy lost
breast implants—Mike was a "must-have" for the book.
And, in order to completely portray this world and its characters, I
woman. Although men dominate professional gambling, women have be
great success, but have a completely different perspective. Cathy Hulbert w
her experience as both a blackjack and poker player. From there, my subj
Chip called Doyle. One by one they fell into place.
In choosing my subjects, I took into account the amount of money wo
and the stories they had to tell. Every person in this book has been a ful
least 20 years. They're all consistent winners, because they gamble with an
great fortunes doing it.
Even though I've been around the world of professional gamblers f
brought many surprises. For example, most professional gamblers don't ga
out as a poker player, but as he meets other pros, he'll probably branch out
edge. Stan Tomchin began as a backgammon player and later shifted i
considered one of the best poker players in the world, but has probably m
Alan Woods was a blackjack player who now bets the horses. Cathy Hulbe
plays poker.
I also found that although all serious gamblers look for a mathematic
and personality traits lead to very different working styles. Betting hors
computer analysis. You're up against an institution and your opponent's
forms of gambling do not require an awareness of human behavior. Poker,
without a fluency in psychology. Blackjack players, like sports bettors, p
added problem of having to disguise their betting strategy, and often t
Tommy Hyland dressed as Santa Claus.
In blackjack, there's always a known correct play. In poker and backg
to winning, players must rely on their judgment, which can become clo
adversity and not go on tilt or start steaming. Professional gamblers co
Although I selected these eight people ahead of time, I found that all of th
point. Cathy Hulbert was on a blackjack team with Alan Woods. Alan me
him one morning at 4 a.m. to ask if Mike wanted to bet a million do
interviewed Chip Reese, Mike was playing klabiash (a card game) in Chip's
Many people assume that for gamblers to win consistently, they must
gamblers live by their reputations. A theme that comes up repeatedly in
consider their colleagues to be much more honest than people in the busine
to loaning money. It's not uncommon for one gambler to loan another $50
contract, just his word that it will be paid back.
One of the reasons the public has the mistaken impression that prof
they've heard that casinos frequently bar professionals from playing. Casin
Anyone who plays with what the casino bosses perceive to be an advantage
the bosses are trained to pick them off and kick them out.
Sometimes this policy costs the casino, when a player is barred from g
advantage. Doyle Brunson relates in his interview that he knows very littl
were to sit down in a Las Vegas casino and try to play, the casino would st
Brunson. The bosses would assume that he wouldn't be playing if he didn't
talks about casinos that bar any sports bettor who appears halfway smart
Hyland says, "All we want to do is play a game according to the rules that
the game, or we won't play."
It's legal to play poker in a card room and blackjack in a casino, or
sports book. There are also places to play these games illegally, but the p
True professionals have too high a profile to risk gambling illegally. This d
have problems with the law. As Mike Svobodny points out, being extrem
intense scrutiny. Chip Reese says, "Just because I'm not doing anything il
defend myself someday." For the best example of a legal nightmare, see the
Who makes the most money? Horse bettors first, followed by sports
and blackjack and backgammon players. The amount they can bet and the
year dictate—and often limit—their earning potential. But for gamblers
interviews, it really isn't about the money. Mike Svobodny says that there'
gambler and a professional. They both want to stay in action, but the profe
of it. Chip Reese says, "I'm like a little kid. I get up every day and say
today?'"
That sounds like a great life to me.
See what you think.

Note: The world of professional gambling has its own lexicon. Many g
differ from their real-world counterparts. These terms are defined in a glo
The definitions are not repeated from chapter to chapter; however, a compl
the book. In addition, the "Notes" at the end of each chapter expand
referenced within the conversations.
 1

BILLY WALTERS

Billy Walters may be the biggest sports bettor in the world. On a

hundreds of thousands of dollars using data generated by an exclusive a
programmers. He filters the data, then goes to work at his specialty—get
spread he wants.
Born in Munfordville, Kentucky, Billy's father died when he was a yea
raised him, and on her way to work, she'd drop him off at a pool room ow
cases around the pool table for Bill to stand on. At age four, Billy Walters
"More skulduggery goes on in a pool room than anywhere. It's the greates
life is all about."
After a short stint as a bookmaker and an arrest, Billy decided that he h
his gambling exploits have made him a legend among professionals. In t
Computer Group, the first gamblers to successfully use computers to a
bookmakers from coast to coast. In 1986 he won Amarillo Slim's Super
prestigious tournament at the time. In Atlantic City he won $3.8 million
story goes that the casino sent the roulette wheel to NASA afterward to b
biases.
After following these incredible stories for years, I knew I had to have B
But there was also a dark side. In his early days, Bill was a self-desc
any other, he's had to beat not only the casinos, but the federal government
Group, he was indicted for bookmaking, and he's been indicted three
laundering. Walters keeps fighting them, because, he says, "There's a prin
wrong."
Since 1988, Billy has spent most of his time developing and operating
He has six golf courses and a hotel. He's built mobile-home and industrial p
with houses. During my interview, Bill stressed that business and gambl
something at ten, then you're a buyer at eight and a seller at twelve. It ma
property or calling the last bet in a poker game.
How does a man go from compulsive loser to being one of the most su
told me, "I know what every sucker thinks, because I used to be one."

When did you first start gambling?

I guess I was about five years old.

What were you betting on?

I was shooting pool, playing penny nine ball. The way I got introduce
from most of the people I know.
As a youngster, I led two lives. My father was a professional gambler,
a half old. My grandmother raised me, and we were very poor. My grandm
washed dishes at a restaurant at lunch hour. She was the most religious lady
town of fourteen hundred people in Kentucky called Munfordville. Every
school, and church afterward. We had training union on Sunday night an
night. I was part of a Christian youth organization called the R.A.s, the Roy
My uncle owned a pool room. When I was four years old, my grand
while she went to work. My uncle would put Coke cases around the back p
started shooting pool when I was four years old. When I was five or six, I w
When I was eight I got a paper route. I worked seven days a week, thre
cut grass for people. There were eight or ten people whose yards I kept. I
farmers, working on the crops and things like that.
I remember the first time I lost an amount of money that had a major e
old. The town grocer was a baseball fanatic. His name was Woody Bra
Dodgers fan. I loved baseball and my heroes were Mickey Mantle and the
had saved up about thirty dollars from this paper route and I bet the whole
Dodgers in the World Series. I think that's the only series the Dodgers eve
like it was yesterday: that sick empty feeling I had the first time I got brok
memorable from a gambling standpoint.

When did you start playing golf?

 I didn't start playing golf until I was about twenty. I didn't even know
course. Obviously, I wasn't raised in a country-club set. The town I was in
grandmother died when I was thirteen, and I was forced to move to Lou
worked two jobs there and played a lot of pool. I got a girl pregnant when
continued to go to high school until I graduated. I worked in a bakery in th
night until I got out of high school. I eventually ended up in the automobile
cars with invited me to play golf.

Did you have an aptitude for the game right away?

I thought I did, and I bet the first time I played. We played a hundred-d

Nassau — The classic betting proposition in golf. A Nassau consists

amount. In a $100 Nassau, $100 is won by the player with the best score on
is won for the best score on the back nine, and a third $100 is won by the pl
for the entire game.

Without ever having played before?

Oh yeah. Although my father was a professional gambler and I wa

addicted to it. I didn't realize it then, but in retrospect I was totally addicted
Even though I was married and had a child to raise, my typical week w
a week selling cars. After I got off work I went to a poker game. On S
schedule for college and pro football. Every. Monday a parade of bookma
five times a year I would take a trip to Las Vegas and whatever money I h
Las Vegas. This went on for a number of years. I made a lot of money in t
accumulated any. We lived okay.

So you weren't out blowing the rent money.

Oh, no. But I had innumerable opportunities in the automobile busines

and hadn't gambled, I would probably own three hundred automobile de
love, my heart, my mind were always on gambling. In Kentucky, where I
anybody ever heard of Las Vegas.

Newport?

Yeah, Newport, and Louisville, too. Newport is better known, becaus

who started Las Vegas came from. But there was underground gambling i
Vegas was ever founded. Louisville is not a city like Chicago or New York
There's no organized crime there, and there never has been any organized
long as bookmakers didn't mess with any players, the police couldn't car
establishments where you could shoot craps, play poker, and get the call
Gambling was a way of life there. It was a wide-open town. When I mo
more convenient. I saw bookmakers that couldn't read or write, driving Cad
In the late '70s I had a son who was diagnosed with a terminal brain tu
the rocks. It was the only thing in my entire life that I have been faced with
shot at, I've been heisted, I've owed money that I didn't have, I've been bro
faced any kind of pressure that I couldn't deal with. When I was told my
through this tremendous feeling of guilt. I was working eighty hours a we
the rest of the time I was playing poker or playing golf or doing somethin
days to live and I hadn't spent nearly as much time with him as I should hav
time was having tremendous emotional problems and our marriage was we
got out of the automobile business.
I was burned out on automobiles, I was defeated emotionally because
gotten a divorce, but I was still infatuated with gambling. I looked at all t
played golf once a week; they played seven days a week and practiced.
o'clock at night after working all those hours and I could hardly hold my
that played for a living. I thought to myself: If I could devote a hundred
could be successful. It was something that appealed to me and something I
out of the automobile business, I decided I was going to become a bookmak
I started booking in Kentucky in '79 or '80, along with about a hundr
booking. In no time I had a lot of business, because I worked hard and I k
on it, I was very naive. I lived there my whole life and I'd seen all these
any problems. Had I known the problems it would create for me for the r
considered booking, but I did it. I booked there for a short period of time a
what happens to most people that book. I wound up being arrested. That wa

If the town was wide open, why you?

There was an election. The incumbent mayor was defeated and a new
new chief of police and they were going to crack down. I was the most visi
guy. Once I got arrested I knew I had to make a decision. I could either
automobile business, and completely get out of gambling, or I had to go
accepted—someplace where it was legal and I could be a respected mem
was Las Vegas; Las Vegas is the Wall Street of gambling.
In retrospect, the chances of me making it in Las Vegas were about on
someone with at least average intelligence and I've always had an incred
days I had two major leaks in my game. First, I drank. And when I dran
gambling. I gave my money away. Second, I was a very poor manager. E
good manager.

money management (being a manager) — Considered by many to b

gambling, it's the skill that often separates the pros from the wannabes wh
their bankrolls during extended losing streaks and to maximize the advantag
confused with money-management-based betting systems—no betting syste
a mathematical advantage in the game.

When I moved to Las Vegas, most people [who knew me] gave
successful. I decided I was going to devote a hundred percent of my tim
could possibly become. And I remarried. I married the lady that I'm mar
twenty-three years.

What was her reaction to that decision?

A large part of the success that I've been able to achieve has been bec
the first girl I married—who didn't like gambling, didn't understand gamb
this girl knew me and knew what I was. From day one she's been total
whether we had a bag full of money or we were broke. She's been that kin
me to be happy, and anything and everything she could do to support me
married.

You're very different from the other gamblers I've interview

always wanted to have an edge, whereas you had a lot of gamble in
later.

Yeah. I suffered a lot of disappointments gambling. Had most people g

they wouldn't still be gambling. At one time I was addicted. Back in the
gamble in me than any man alive. I'd flip a nickel for all the money I had
difference. When it came to gambling, money didn't mean anything. I was
it, but if I couldn't get the best of it, I'd take the worst of it to get in actio
manager of my money.
On the other hand, I won a lot of money gambling. I probably won mo
you know. The reason I was able to win such large amounts was beca
someone who would give a lot of gamble. In the gambling world, if a guy
lot of people won't gamble with him. If a guy has a reputation as someon
people who won't gamble with other people will gamble with him. But bac
great manager, I never accumulated any money. I eventually ended up getti

giving (or having) gamble — The willingness to bet when you may have
nut peddler— Someone who wants to bet only on sure things. In poker,
nuts."
taken off— Usually, to be cheated. Also (and as used here), to be beaten b

What changed that? How did you change?

Several things changed it. Number one, I got older. Number two, I bec
being a gambler and understanding the facts surrounding gambling. Numb
or more to do with my outlook changing than anything in the world.
I started coming to Las Vegas in the '60s. I always believed that it di
you won or lost. If you gave the casinos action, that was all they cared abo
popular guy in Las Vegas, because I lost millions and millions of dollars th
of the casinos that I hadn't realized existed. When I started beating them, I
was incorrect. If you threatened to become a consistent winner, the c
business, but they would go to great lengths to create problems for you. O
had a chilling effect on me. I made a promise to myself that I wouldn't
unless I was convinced that I had a mathematical advantage.

action — Betting; when money is on the line.

Once you began operating this way, did they bar you from play?

I didn't exactly get barred. For many years I'd won and lost large amou
end of the day I was a big loser.

Was this at all different games, or betting sports?

It was at table games. I played blackjack and baccarat.

So you were exactly the customer the casino wanted—you were a

I was exactly what they wanted, and again, back in those days I drank
tougher guy to beat. But when I drank, I played really poorly. That's
somebody who has a lot of gamble to him and is willing, on a continual ba
and lose his money.
In years prior to moving to Las Vegas I'd played in some of the poker t
Binion had a golf tournament every year. [Jack Binion was the owner of th
those days it was pretty famous. I say a golf tournament, but it was a bunch
who got together and sometimes four months later we would still be out the
from the Horseshoe and professional gamblers from all over the world cam
golf. Even before I was a successful gambler, I won a lot of money back
lost that money in the casinos or betting sports or something else.

How high were you guys playing?

 I had some $100,000 Nassaus. Throughout those years I met a lot of p
Reese, Billy Baxter, Sarge Ferris, Puggy Pearson, and on and on and o
Chapter 2; Doyle Brunson is interviewed and Puggy Pearson is profiled
move to Las Vegas I was broke, but one of my associations was with a gr
software program to handicap sports.

How did you get connected with them?

That's a real long story, but I was basically involved with them in mark
the money. They got started and were successful, and they wanted to expa
have the means or the ability and that's how I got involved. I got involved w
I moved to Las Vegas.

moving money—Getting bets placed. As used here, betting with many

get a large amount of action without moving the point spread.

This was the famed "Computer Group" 1?

Right. So when I moved to Las Vegas, Chip Reese was, if not the bes
the world. Chip was a much better manager than I was, but at that time he
world, either. He made a lot of money playing poker and screwed it off be
He enjoyed golf and he and I liked each other, so when I moved to Las Veg
to help him as much as I could with his golf game and taught him what I
me about poker, backgammon, and gin rummy. We were next-door neighb
together. I look back on those days as some of the happiest of my life. We
the progressive jackpot was out of whack, we would put a crew togethe
money and we were partners. All the money we won playing poker, or ba
in a pot and we split. That relationship went on for a couple years. We h
going very well and he decided to discontinue the partnership. But I continu

crew—A group of gamblers who work together as a team.

 In 1985 I had a controversy with the FBI, who had looked at the Com
that had been out of the academy for about two months. He didn't have a w
we were bookmakers. He couldn't fathom that we were mere bettors.
involved in betting sports with large amounts of money and a large gro
bookmaker. A group of people making large amounts of money from bett
nor the FBI had ever seen before. In December of 1984 they put wiretaps
1985 they carried out simultaneous raids throughout the United States. Th
pretense that this was a large book-making network.
1
For this and subsequent numeric references 2-4, see "Walters Notes" at the end of this chapter.

The wiretaps should have made it obvious that this wasn't the cas

That's right. When they listened to those wiretaps it should have be

nothing more than betting, but [to them] it wasn't. We were raided and they
money. We felt that once they reviewed all the evidence, they would com
bettors and that would be that. After the raids took place, information w
became very apparent to both the head of the strike force and the head of
done nothing wrong and the case was put on hold.
During the next five years, two new strike force heads came in and the
here in Las Vegas. Then, two or three months before the statute of limitati
titled Interference. The book was about ninety-nine percent fiction. It all
games being fixed by organized crime. This wasn't related to us, but to sp
was all bullshit, but there was a chapter that mentioned the Computer Gr
most successful sports betting group in the history of America. He mention
January of '85, and insinuated that the reason we weren't indicted was be
group was a fellow who was married to Barbara Walters. According to
indicted was because Barbara Walters' best friend was Nancy Reagan, and
When the book came out, the principals at the Justice Department rea
you mean there's a fix going on?" There was no fix, but it got the case rebo
two weeks after the arrest, we were indicted. [The statute of limitations w
with— and listen to this, because nobody in the history of America, to my
with this—"being part of a criminal conspiracy, conspiring to bet." We we
travel act and a violation of 1084. Fortunately, we were found not guilty o
count, the jury voted eleven to one to acquit, and it was dismissed.
The thing I learned first-hand from this experience is that the vast majo
are competent, and well intended, but they're not perfect. What happened
happening to me today, is that people went out and spent large amounts of
and public statements. When facts came out that didn't support their re
position where they had to cover their asses. That's when people become ex

It seems that the system is ripe for abuse.

These forfeiture laws are more abused than anything I can think of. Co
was put in place to confiscate ill-gotten gains from drug traffickers and suc
to target people. Let's say a guy is truly guilty of violating the law, and he h
is cut a deal with him. They let him plead guilty to a lesser offense, the pe
the money gets forfeited into the police slush fund. The bottom line is, if
you're rich or poor, black or white, you should be held to an equal sta
forfeiture laws are worded, you have police motivated to do one thing: Get

You think they target gamblers because of the amount of cash inv

Sure. I've had people in law enforcement tell me that gamblers are th
them. From an administrative standpoint, they invest little or no resources
in forfeiture is substantial. A lot of people in gambling can't stand up and
they would like because, let's face it, maybe some of them didn't pay all the
In Las Vegas I have a controversy with the Metropolitan Police Depar
thing, the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department confiscated $2.8
pretense that I was an illegal bookmaker. They found out I wasn't, but that d
last three years they've worked day and night trying to concoct a crime th
legal right to keep my money. Back in 1996 their offer was: I give them $5
balance and it would all go away. I refused to give them a penny, because I
account for every cent of my money, and they basically bit into something
is, someone who has not violated the law and someone who has nothing to

They confiscated your money claiming it was ill-gotten gains?

 Yes. Any money that they seize from people in forfeitures goes i
accountability for the money that goes into the account and no accountabil
been told, and I believe it to be true, that the police working in this depart
money in overtime as they are in base pay. They're traveling here, there, a
investigative work. Why shouldn't they be held accountable just like any ot
The vast majority of people they do this to are somewhat dirty. F
affordable to give the police the assets than it is to hire an attorney and figh

In the long run it could cost you more than the $500,000 they wo

Oh, it's already cost me far in excess of $500,000, but there's a principl
know my background, but in 1997 I was recognized as Man of the Year in
Year. I've donated millions and millions of dollars to local charities in L
called Opportunity Village for which we were the lead donors. The dollars
It's the principle.

That aspect of the case surprises me. Las Vegas is a small

businessman and a respected member of the community. It seems od

If you were to talk to the majority of the people that make Las Vegas
ninety-nine point nine percent of them would feel just the way you do. Th
been written in the paper have been extremely critical of Metro and the Att
time I was indicted, the publisher of one of the newspapers invited me to w
heard of someone who was indicted being called up and asked to write
published scathing editorials criticizing the Metropolitan Police Departmen
for this. Nevada is no different from any other state. There's politics here.
There's a unique situation in Nevada regarding this, though. In
Department there's a unit called Intelligence. They target people through an
charge people with various violations of the law, and end up bargaining an
through forfeitures.
When Metro's Intelligence unit got my money and I wouldn't bargain
raided this guy under the pretense that he was a bookmaker, but he's not. B
laundering." They came up with some wild plan on how to do it. I got in
devise a crime. They started with that theory that I've laundered money
whole thing has been about for three years. Twice these guys have indicted
both times. They just re-indicted me for the third time for the same charge.

Isn't that double jeopardy?

If the case is dismissed with prejudice they can't. The case was throw
wasn't with prejudice so it allows them to do it again. Now, you're righ
happen. But these guys don't seem to have anyone above them that eithe
they're doing. That's how they've been able to get away with this stuff.

How has your wife handled this?

I'll tell you a story about my wife. When I got indicted in 1990, they ind
whole purpose of indicting my wife was to pressure me into plea-bargainin
down and met with my attorneys. They met with the government and I w
plead guilty to something I was totally innocent of, just because I was afrai
subjected to.
My lawyers met with the prosecutors, but the deal they offered was abs
right there, and I asked the attorneys to explain the possibilities to Susan
done nothing wrong and we believe that you will prevail in court. But, un
can happen." My wife said, "What could happen to me?" The lawyer said
the first time in the whole ordeal that it dawned on my wife that she could p
welled up and she started crying. I said, "Honey why don't we go someplac
attorneys' office and went to a fast-food restaurant and ordered coffee. I'
honey, don't Worry about this. I'm going to plead guilty to what they're off
all." She got hold of herself and said, "No. We're not pleading guilty to an
are not going to do this to you." In the twenty-three years I've been marr
other time that I heard her use a curse word. We went back to the attorneys
to trial." So we all got indicted, and I sat there in federal court with her fo
that ordeal together. There aren't many women that are made like that.
 You talked about the first time you realized that the casinos didn
thought you had a chance of winning. Was there a specific incident t

Yeah, there was. If you're committed to being a professional gambler a

be, you spend every waking moment trying to figure out a way to beat the
can imagine, there are all kinds of theories that gamblers come up with
them don't work. But some guys approached me with a theory about pla
something that they tried to keep secret. It's something that many pe
Everybody has tracked roulette wheels, and in fact in Europe they write a
trying to seduce players into playing the wheel because they think there's a
So these people approached me with this method to beat roulette. At t
gambling buddies that I played poker with and they all thought it was quite

Was it a system based on biased wheels?

Without going into details, let me say this: It was done from a mathem
one hundred and ten percent above board. This wasn't even a gray area. T
took advantage] of casinos with old faulty equipment that had not been mai

This was written about in Russell Barnhart's book, Beating The W

Right. So I started playing roulette. Up until that time I had won an

casinos. Even after I moved to Las Vegas, there were at least four occas
dollars playing blackjack or baccarat at the Horseshoe or the Golden Nug
roulette, I started to see that other side of the casinos. Without naming the
a large amount of money playing roulette.

When you say large, wasn't it seven figures?

Yeah. This boss took the position that not only did he not want any mo
was fine, he didn't even want his employees to associate with me anym
ostracize me from the people who worked at his company. Just as an add
investigation division of the IRS investigating me for four and a half year
proceeds in the form of a check in my name. I deposited it in the bank in
the win, and still went through four and a half years of one of the most unb
imagine.

I guess the casinos are pretty powerful in Nevada.

Well this happened in New Jersey, but it was a casino that was repre
Nevada. A week prior to me winning this money, I'd lost $1,047,000 in th
paid it off like a man and that was fine. On top of this, there were some [f
promised me by the casino and I got stiffed for that. The guy refused to
casinos, I just got to where I hated them. I couldn't lose a hundred-doll
depended on it, unless I felt I had the best of it. It took me a while to rea
way, because I'd always done the majority of my gambling at the Horsesh
any classier people than Benny and Jack Binion. If you won or you lost, t
were nice, friendly, and professional. I believed all casinos were that way
with roulette, it was like a little boy who finds out for the first time there's
as much or more to do with me becoming a good manager as anything.

Sounds like they may have shot themselves in the foot. You we
dollars in the same casino playing blackjack.

And it wasn't any secret to the people who had the casino that I though
told them, and they all laughed at me. Then, after the fact, the boss said tha
the wheel. Okay, what was wrong with it? He didn't know. Well, I didn't d
polygraph test. If I didn't pass the test, I'd give them all the money back. I
do anything to the roulette wheel; I wasn't involved with anybody who d
there weren't any employees who did anything to the roulette wheel; if th
roulette wheel, I don't know what it was. And up until today I guarantee
was wrong with the roulette wheel.
A boss said to me, "Some of these numbers were biased." So I asked
"What if I had bet on some of these numbers that were biased against me
ball landing on them? If I lost all my money and you found out about the b
back?" He said, "No. There's no way I would give you your money back."
 The other casino owners had to hear about this when it happene
casinos playing other roulette wheels. You'd think they would ha
"Stop all the wheels."

Well, in their defense, this wasn't like someone betting late on a whe
computer. Playing these roulette wheels wasn't any cinch. I played a lot of
look at a roulette wheel and do a sampling. Many times we believed we ha
and sometimes we didn't. This wasn't a sure thing by any means.

What about when you were with the Computer Group and you
books in Las Vegas? At some point they must have decided to stop y

For a smart bookmaker, I was the most preferred customer they coul
would try to avoid doing business with me. I'll give you an example. You'v
Bob Martin in his day was recognized as being the sharpest bookmak
Martin did was go out of his way to create alliances and relationships wit
He let them bet him first and he put them on for large amounts of money. M
a dollar five instead of a dollar ten. Other times he didn't charge them any
everything and anything those handicappers knew, he knew. He did this on
out on Monday morning. Bob Martin knew everything he needed to know
that information. He paid for it. But he took the information and used it to
[the line] in such a manner that it forced people on the other side. Many t
Tuesday and bet on the games himself with other bookmakers.

juice—The amount a bookie charges to wager above the base amount of

might bet $11 to win $10. The $1 difference is the "juice." Also called "vigo

When the hotels got into the sports book business, the guys that knew
Either that or the hotels didn't understand how important they were. Th
enough money to come in and run their books. What they ended up with w
behind the ears, guys that really couldn't even clerk for a good bookmaker.
gaming bosses, who didn't know anything about sports betting themselves
and in the interview they sounded like they knew what they were talking ab
So these guys got hired and since day one they've run the sports book indus
There's a guy who runs all the race and sports books for one of the maj
a book about being a bookmaker. I don't mean any disrespect to the ma
doesn't know anything at all about bookmaking. He knows that he doesn't k
does is put up a great front that he's knowledgeable. He has a Gestapo f
responsible for. Anyone who comes in and doesn't look just right to him, o
the wrong lingo [sounds sophisticated], or somehow looks like a professi
them not to come back to his sports book.

He throws people out just from the vibe he gets from them?

Yeah. My friend Gene Mayday used to own a casino called Little Cae
Las Vegas. He had this little hole-in-the-wall sports book and he wrote m
and the Las Vegas Hilton put together. This guy who wrote the book on b
customers over to Gene Mayday's casino in a limousine to bet teasers, beca
Gene Mayday used to sit back and make millions of dollars and laugh at h
he thinks you're any threat at all he will 86 you and tell you not to come bac

86ed — To be thrown out. In some cases a player is politely asked

"Trespass Act," which states that if he returns, he'll be arrested.

Las Vegas was built on, and continues today to thrive on, people that w
as half-sharps. Probably one-thousandth of one percent of the people that b
are all losers. So all those people that went into this man's sports books ov
he's thrown out. If a smart guy goes into one of his books, he doesn't hav
smart guy and pricing his product accordingly. Smart people are smart for a
directly, they'll get someone else who can. Instead of him getting bet once o
the sharp side. The game will kick off and he still won't know it's the sha
Martin wanted the smart guy betting him, and when he did, Martin moved
sucker bet him he might not move the line at all. Bob Martin made a lot of m
The sports bettors over the years have become a lot more sophisticat
news for the bettor is the bookmaker in the last fifteen years has regressed
as smart as the bookmakers were fifteen years ago.

But they are in communication.

Yeah, but ninety-five percent of the guys booking today aren't rea
players. They all want to bet. The guys of the past era that made millions
who spent a hundred percent of their time booking. They tried to become t
Today, there isn't one in ten that's a true bookmaker.
You have two kinds. You've got guys like the author of that book who,
day of the week it is and what two teams are playing, he wants to run him
the other kind; if anybody bets him that he thinks is halfway smart at all, t
out and bet ten times as much money as was bet with him. I think there's a
in the bookmaking world.

I don't know how hard it is to get licensed as a bookmaker, but it

sharp and became a legal bookmaker in Las Vegas, he'd clean up.

The original purpose of sports books in Las Vegas was to attract

casinos. The whole reason they were created has been lost in the shuffle. I
the sports books in Las Vegas, you could have a national football conte
You'd have people from all over the United States traveling there ever
contest. The sports books could get together and pay a fifty-million-dollar
time. If done correctly you could bring thousands of extra people into Las V
Let's face it; Las Vegas has a monopoly on sports bookmaking. Whe
book here and the employees are customer-friendly, what's supposed to h
sports customer, and introduce him to a casino host. That has never h
happening. Another thing is, the sports books in Las Vegas have not bee
haven't been profitable is what I pointed out to you earlier: The people run
doing.
Jails across America are full of people who were willing to take a ch
lucrative. The point I'm trying to make here is that if somebody can book
lucrative businesses in the entire world. Here's Nevada, which has a mon
have no competition at all, but when you look at the sports books, they d
look at these unlicensed bookmakers throughout the world, they make mill
The guys who are running the sports books in Las Vegas don't know what t

It's amazing to me that they're not making money.

They make a small amount of money, but nothing compared to w

bookmakers traditionally make. You look at what bookmakers make in Eng
and compare it to the percentages they hold in Las Vegas. It's not even clos

How did the casinos manage to get this messenger-betting 4 law p

The gaming industry in Nevada runs the state. If you're part of an o

Nevada on behalf of that pool, you're violating the law. You're a criminal an

You won at least one major poker tournament.

Yes. I won the Super Bowl of Poker in Lake Tahoe.

Do you still play poker?

No, I quit playing poker about twelve years ago. When I had the cont
ended up being indicted in 1990. In the middle of that, around '87 or '8
reposition myself. I was going to continue to bet sports, but I would di
gambling. Poker was one of those things. I became much more involved
called Berkeley Enterprises and I did a lot of acquisitions and things
concerted effort developing and operating that company.

You own golf courses now?

I had ten golf courses, now we have six. In '92 we changed the nam
Group. The Walters Group is a holding company for several other compan
development. We own a hotel. I've built some mobile-home parks, some in
I own some commercial office buildings and some warehouses.
 It's unusual to be both a successful gambler and a successful bus
to get into business and end up blowing their money.

It's all risk-reward. I experienced a lack of success as a gambler early

necessary principles. When I became a full-time professional gambler,
period. Once I learned those things, I realized that the same principles ap
reward, and being able to evaluate things correctly. It's putting your money
come, knowing what the probabilities are. What's in the pot? What are you
is laying you? What are the true odds of your hand prevailing over the hand
Or, it's buying a large piece of real estate, entitling it, improving it, an
who buys and sells stocks looks at current earnings, past earnings, the of
growth prospects look like, what their competition looks like, etc. He then
company is worth ten dollars a share. Well he's a buyer at eight dollars and
who decides to play pool against another guy does an internal evaluation
sucker overvalues his own abilities and undervalues his opponent's. The s
opposite, and factors in about a twenty percent contingency.
Another thing is this: The amount of risk he takes is based directly on t
take near the amount of risk if you could win a hundred dollars as you w
thousand. I may play golf with a guy and give him a lot more liberal gam
grand, than if I think I can win only a thousand bucks. The same goes in a b

How do you rate the ethics of gamblers compared to business peo

When I was five or six years old, I got dumped my first time in a pool
and he dumped me. I was playing penny nine ball. The pool room is the g
what life is all about. More skulduggery goes on in a pool room than anywh

getting dumped—To be set up by a trusted partner. Here, Bill's partner

took a cut of the money won by their opponents.

In any profession there's good and bad, but from a percentage standpoi
gamblers of the world conduct themselves with a much higher code of ethic
world that I have been exposed to. There are exceptions to every rule. I h
world that I have the utmost respect for. Their word to me is better than any
two of those. In the gambling world, I know a lot of people who could call
without signing anything and I would feel confident about it.

What's the most money you've ever won in a day?

I won $3.8 million.

Was that betting sports?

No, that was playing roulette [the Atlantic City episode].

What's the most you've lost in a day?

Couple million.

Do you have any "greatest gambling moments"?

I shared the one with you about losing the World Series bet when I wa
made on a sporting event, at the time it happened, was when Bo Jackson
were playing Michigan in a bowl game. I think the line on the game was
made a big bet on Michigan. Some tout service was on the other side of it
Auburn so the public was against us. The line kept going up and I kept tel
me], "Bet, bet." I got carried away with the moment. People I thought w
game turned in their bets and had $200,000 or $250,000, because we had
were getting so much action on Auburn that no matter how much Bill's tea
go down.] I didn't know it until the kickoff, but I had $1,050,000 bet on th
money to cover all the bets if I lost, because I'd bet more than I'd intended t

tout—A service that sells sports picks to bettors.

I was watching this game and Michigan should have been leading by
outplayed Auburn so badly it was unbelievable. But with three or four m
Every play Auburn was handing the ball off to Bo Jackson. Auburn had
line. A bunch of penalties were called and with a minute to go, Auburn w
they scored a touchdown I would lose all this money, but if they kicke
handed the ball to Bo Jackson every play and my heart was in my thr
Michigan finally stopped him and I won the bet. I will never forget that on
was the biggest bet I had ever made. I'd worked for several months to ac
have been broke and had to borrow money to pay off the rest.
Another very memorable moment I had came a little while after I mov
hard. For the first time I had a million dollars. My wife and I went down
started drinking, and after dinner I sent her home. I started playing blackja
home and told her I got broke. She said, "Don't worry about it. Everything
our feet." I never will forget that.
I know some successful gamblers, and I will assure you that every o
been through some monumental failures on his way to getting there.

Chip Reese said that Las Vegas is a town of traps.

Chip is right, but for every trap in the gambling world, there are ten
gambler that comes to you with a proposition that's basically taking a shot
are ten of them. You almost get to the point where you become paranoid.

take a shot—To try to take advantage of a person or situation.

They say that the nerds are going to take over the world. Wi
computer models, have the lines been getting better? Is sports getting

There's an intangible regarding sports. From a technical side, as far as

yeah. I'm sure that people's handicapping abilities are going to get better
ahead of the oddsmakers. With all due respect to Roxy, he's got this reputa
were to put him in the world of professional handicappers, he'd finish in th
was the President of Las Vegas Sports Consultants, a company specializing
and making the line for 75% of the casinos in Nevada.] But, as bad as his n
young handicappers are like a bunch of piranhas. They pretty much have
hours.

flattened out— If a bookmaker puts up a bad line, the handicappers bet a

force the line to a point where there's no longer an edge to bet it. The line ge

As long as there's a guy making a line and people are out there betting,
for the astute handicapper. The guy that's making the line to book with has
creating the line to bet with. The guy making the line to book with has to
attract as much business on one side as the other. That doesn't necessarily
[in terms of gauging the teams' relative strengths].
I'll give an example. Let's say Notre Dame is a powerhouse; they w
previous year. Late in the year they're playing Northwestern, which last yea
seven this year. Let's say that the linemaker does know the right line o
favored by 28. Well, he would know, or should know, that the public is on
what he would do is jack the game up to 30 or 31 to start with. If he put i
get clobbered with one-sided action. If he starts the line at 30 or 31, the
favorite. But now the game is going to go up to 32 or 33, which will create
handicapper to bet on the other side. Now the bookmaker has a chance to
there will always be opportunities.

balanced out—To have approximately equal amounts bet on both side

balance a game, he'll pay off the winning bets from the losing bets and still h

The computer wiz kids who are involved in sports today don't have a c
to bet their money. They don't have a feel at all for which way the line
difference in knowing how to bet and when to bet your money in sp
handicapping is. When the lines come out on Sunday night, I'd like to bet
you where ninety-five percent of the games are going to close on Saturday.
right.
I see it all the time. There's a game that opens and the non-professiona
The game is moving one way, and these idiots are going out on Monday
can't wait to take the other side. For example, Virginia Tech was playing F
7. Well, [the nerds] couldn't stand it. They all ran in and bet on Virginia T
down to 4. The game still ended up closing at 6,6.5. If they'd let that gam
and a half or eight. They could have bet all the money they would hav
couldn't help themselves.
On the other side, Notre Dame is playing Northwestern. The game com
for the favorite. They should bet right away on this game because the publ
that's a non-technical advantage that I have. I'm not as smart as these kids t
won't figure it out, but I've got thirty-some years of experience in buying
the line is going to move on these games is extremely important. Probably
better number on these games on Saturday than these guys took on Tuesday
So, do I think the handicapping is going to become better? Yeah. But
doing this for a long long time. I've seen flashes in the pan. I've seen lots of
of guys win for two years. But when I look back, I don't know anybody tha
a lot more difficult than it appears to be. If it ever gets to the point where
obviously the casinos will have to protect their market. It will get to the p
six to five or they'll cut limits back to where there's no profit for the bettors
For all these years I've bet sports, I've gone out of my way to try to cam
public to know what I'm betting on. If the public were to know what I'm
end up betting on the same side, and the bookmakers wouldn't get any t
going good, they'll lose large amounts of money and when that happens,
affects the market.
Well, these new guys today, that doesn't even enter their minds. The go
along who know what they're doing to have a real adverse effect on the mar
Now, the last three years, some guys have beat baseball. But because o
and because of the people that have been involved with moving their mo
baseball market.

Do you bet baseball?

No, just football and basketball.

I used to have some guys that moved for me in sports. We were doing
crushed. After a period of time, I figured out this wasn't any good, so I d
have a minimal effect on the market. I would intentionally do things to ge
us directly to bet on the opposite side.
In order for the professional bettor to be successful for a period of time
to make money. If it isn't a profitable venture for them, the professional be
professional bettor has to figure out a way to be successful, but he also has
bookmakers have to be successful, too. Now these idiots who come alo
they're going to do is burn up the market.
Marketing is the key. The most money I ever won playing golf off
$40,000 one day, which was all the money I had. Then I made a three-
$550,000.

In golf, psychological pressure on your opponent and on your

different from sports betting.

I've played golf for a long time and I've made bigger bets on golf than
saw was, personal ego took over more with golf than anything I've ever do
people in the world, both from the business and the gambling worlds, peo
all, get out of line on golf. Unlike poker or sports betting or anything else
perform under pressure to whatever your abilities allow you to do. I was ne
I can't explain why, but the more pressure, the more heat I was under, the b
I was capable of playing. Even back in the days when I wasn't a great m
always been a real good manager. I've always had a very good ability to eva
others. The mistake that most people make in evaluating golf matches is th
opponent's ability and overestimate their own talent.
I beat one player out of a million dollars at golf. We were playing po
This guy said he was going to start playing. A bunch of players bet him th
break 90 at La Costa. He went down there and got a place and started playi
went down there and started gambling with this guy. In no time at all he
playing him $10,000 Nassaus and gave him a handicap that, on paper, look
an intangible that he wasn't aware of, which was the potential for dogging i

dogging it— Choking or playing poorly under pressure.

I gave him eighteen shots playing match play and twenty in medal pla
nine with four or five holes to go and I'd be about three down. He could ma
and still win. I beat him thirty-one straight days. He'd get to the last four ho
The eighteenth hole was a par five with a little water in front of it. There
didn't make at least 10 or 11 on that hole. It was the most unbelievable thin
All these other gamblers were there with their mouths watering [hopi
But on paper I was giving him a game that looked like I didn't have a chanc
play for no money, he would have shot 95 and I would have had no chance
$50,000 or $60,000 and if I lost it, I was going to quit. I knew him well eno
got his nose open I could break him, and that's what happened.

getting your nose opened— Losing badly. Often leads to gambling wildl
As far as card-playing ability, Stuey Ungar5 was a better card player th
stake Stuey and sit behind him. Gin rummy was his best game. He was at
of thieves had him under a peek. Stuey was such a good player that afte
continued to play and intentionally showed them half his hand. He broke th

under a peek—The cards are being seen. Usually, a spy hiding in an

able to see the cards through a small hole drilled in the wall or ceiling and r
through a wireless radio receiver.

He'd never played no-limit hold 'em in his life, but within a year's time
the world. Management skills are just as important as ability, but he didn't h
That's what's made Chip Reese such a great player. He's as good a ma
anyone I have ever known in gambling.

You were saying before that personal ego is most people's down fa

A lot of people are in denial. A lot of people have a difficult time stepp
and deciding, I was wrong. A lot of people want to continue on in denial un

So now it's just business and golf?

I continue to bet sports, and I play golf.

 Do you ever play backgammon, poker, gin?

No. I belong to this country club, and they've invited me to play in p

never played. Not even once. I have no interest in it at all. I still enjoy spor
it. I no longer care anything about playing poker. I I got to a point where I c
I was probably the fourteenth best poker player in the world, I but I pla
to compete at that level, it's a full-time job. It really is. That's one thing I
can't compete professionally in gambling and do it on a part-time basis. If
get I in a tough game, they'll eat you alive. Being a professional poker I p
level, man, you have to eat it, I sleep it, and breathe it.
That's another thing that amazed me about some of the guys I I playe
example. I can say it now I because Stuey's dead. He was so incredibly br
was a guy who did drugs and everything else in the I world. I never did dru
the gam- I bling world I can just imagine what kind of chance I would'v
drugs.
To compete at that level is like dropping a piece of meat in a I fish ta
weakness or develop a I weakness, you're gone. It's no different from th
Discovery Channel. One gets old and slow and a little blind. A lion cuts
That's what will happen to you in the gambling world. It might be a little c
Rogers had, "You got to know when to hold 'em, and know when to fold 'em
One thing about gambling is no different from the corporate world or
change. If you can't adapt, you will be gone. It happened to the dinosaurs,
in the pan in the gambling world. We see it every day.

What would you tell someone with aspirations to be a profession

Number one, don't even think about it unless it's something you absol
by. In order to become successful, regardless of your IQ, you have to be in
I would recommend to someone? It depends on what you're looking fo
interesting, colorful, very nice people. There are going to be some real pea
is true: Chicken one day and feathers the next. A lot of people have a sto
Are you willing to get broke? How are you going to function once you're
when everything is going good, they're successful gamblers, but the secon
run into some adversity, they can't handle it. They end up on alcohol or dr
that made them successful.
A lot of movies have been done about gambling. You've seen the Cin
The Hustler. It's all bullshit. There's a lot of fun and, to a certain extent, the
all said and done, you better have an unshakable will and a commitment or

Are there any books that you would recommend?

Books that can teach you the basics. But I think the most important thi
to learn by living them, through experience. The good fortune I had, there w
Hubert Coates. They called him "Daddy Warbucks." He was a friend of m
him when I was a kid. I had cousins who were professional poker players. W
was a guy named Fred Ferris; they called him "Sarge." He and I became go
figure to me. He went out of his way to try to school me. I learned a lot
Ungar. I didn't learn a lot about management from Stuey, but I learned a l
lot from Doyle Brunson. But the majority of what I learned in gambling I le

Any advice to the guy out in Peoria?

If you got enough bark on your tree and you're that committed to it,
don't get serious about it. And forget the idea, "I'm going to double up and
quitting." I know what every sucker thinks, because I used to be one.

Walters Notes

l --The Computer Group

The "Computer Group" was one of the most well-known and success
history.
In the early 1970s, a mathematician named Michael Kent was working
the company computer and began compiling stats on his Softball team, w
apply his program to analyze college football and basketball for betting pur
Computers aren't just magic boxes that spit out winning picks, but th
quickly. Once a computer has all the statistics from thousands of gam
example, is home-field advantage really an advantage? If so, what is it wor
artificial turf? How does snowfall affect scoring? In a matter of seconds
games and tell you. From these variables, a "model" is built that determine
is given. Then, the ultimate question can be considered: When Dallas play
and by how much? The computer gives its answer. For example, Dallas w
check with bookmakers to see if there's a discrepancy between the comput
bigger the discrepancy, the more he bets.
For seven years Kent developed and refined his program. In 1979 he
and began his life as a Professional gambler. He lost $40,000 during the
$150,000 betting basketball. But this wasn't the We Kent wanted. He was
was in constant fear from walking in and out of sports books with large amo
Enter Ivan Mindlin. Mindlin was an orthopedic surgeon in Las Vegas w
interest in computers. He, too, had developed a computer program, but wit
program was for baseball, and second, it lost consistently. A mutual friend
kindred spirit in Mindlin. They decided to form a partnership—Kent would
would bet the money.
Mindlin first called in Stan Tomchin (interviewed in Chapter 5) an
moving the money. Tomchin recalls, "When I used to move the computer
to $5 million on weekends. We busted bookmakers. We just destroyed them
On Super Bowl Sunday, 1985, the FBI raided 43 locations in 16 sta
Group. The FBI thought they were a network of bookmakers, rather than sp
a bookie, it's not illegal to bet). Five years later, one week before the statut
people were indicted. The charges were eventually dropped, but the Compu

2—Bob Martin
The dean of Las Vegas bookmaking, Bob Martin moved to Las Vegas i
living. In 1967 he was offered a job at the Churchill Downs Betting Par
United States revolved around Bob Martin. Martin set the line. He was so g
across the United States used Martin's point spread, rarely having to adjus
claimed that in setting the line, he tried to come up with a point spread aga
to bet himself. In 1975, Martin set up the Union Plaza sports book, with w
For budding professional sports bettors, Martin offered one piece of advic
Martin died in March 2001, the elite of the gambling world—from casino C
showed up at his funeral to pay their respects.

3—The Line
The "line" in sports betting means the point spread placed on a game.
you must give up ("lay") 7 points while to bet the underdog you get ("take
bookmaker isn't trying to predict the final score of a game as much as he's t
cause the public to bet equally on both sides. A bookmaker charges $11 w
bets is called the "juice" or "vie " If the public bets both sides equally, the b
from the losers and pay the winners, keeping the extra 10% vig as his prof
on one side of a game, the line will be adjusted. For example, say Green B
opens at Green Bay -7. If money pours in on Green Bay, the bookmaker w
-7.5 or -8. The bookmaker hopes more money will now come in on Chicago

4—Messenger Betting
In 1998 the Nevada Gaming Commission made it illegal to place a
book in return for compensation. This was in direct response to organized
people (sometimes called "beards") to simultaneously place bets at books a
the most dollars bet before the lines were changed.

5—Stu "The Kid" Ungar

Stu Ungar was a gin rummy savant. He won his first gin tournament
with his parents in the Catskills. At 15, he won $10,000 in a tournament w
he moved to Las Vegas and promptly won a $50,000 tournament, which
obtain financial backing) that allowed him to play anyone, anywhere, for an
They came, they played, Ungar won. He began giving his opponents b
still won. They even Wed cheating him, to no avail. Within a year it was a
gin game, so he turned to poker.
Ungar entered the no-limit hold 'em world championship event W the
Horseshoe for the first time in 1980. He won. In 1981 he won again. The
time was the Amarillo Slim Super Bowl of Poker. Ungar won that no-limit
the only player ever to win championships in both the World Series and th
times).
 Unfortunately, Ungar's love of sports betting and horse racing often bus
lost $80,000 the first time he stepped on a golf course). He was a millio
After years of problems with alcohol and drugs, Ungar made a comebac
world by winning his third World Series. In 1998 he was found dead in a s
Las Vegas Strip. A combination of narcotics and painkillers had triggered a

CHIP REESE

David "Chip" Reese is considered by many to be the best all-around p

inducted into the Poker Hall of Fame in 1991 at the age of forty—the you
he's semi-retired, when the really big guns come out to play $2,000-$4,000
that it's worth his time to ante up.
Beyond poker, Chip is a big-money sports bettor. He bets football and b
made him millions. Using a computer program that simulates games, he
teams and have them play each other thousands of times. Analyzing the re
the bookmakers put out, which has translated into enormous profits.
Chip grew up in Dayton, Ohio, and started gambling at five. When a ne
to tell her that he'd been playing poker with the older kids, she thought he
his baseball cards. Instead, Chip won them all (the boy wanted to broker
high school he won his state debate championship. At Dartmouth he won s
his fraternity game room was dedicated the David E. Reese Memoria
programmed" to go to law school. But after being accepted to Harvard, he d
After migrating to Las Vegas in 1974, Chip promptly went woke play
discovered poker and everything changed. He entered a poker tournament
had a hundred grand and I was twenty-three years old, having the time of m
anywhere."
According to Chip, there's no politics in gambling. "You control your
you from the top if you have talent, character, and a strong work ethic. "If y

When did you start gambling?

 I started gambling when I was a little kid. I learned how to play poke
fifth and sixth graders who lived in my neighborhood used to have a big ga
played for baseball cards. My mother later told me about one of the older k
came over to the house one day and knocked on the front door. He said, "
need to know. All the fifth and sixth graders are playing poker for basebal
with them." She said, "I'm glad you told me that. You go teach him a less
He said, "That's not why I'm here. He won all the baseball cards and we wa
first score.

score—A big win.

I had rheumatic fever when I was a kid. Now, I think, if you have rheum
like crazy. But back then, they worried that you might have heart damage,
any activity for about a year. I missed the whole first grade. I did it from m
an active kid, and my mom stayed home to try to keep me down. The onl
eat, which I love still and has caused my weight problem, and play gam
there was, she taught me. I got highly competitive in the first grade with ca
on it, I'm really a product of that year. In my life, I'm like a little kid. I get
going to play today?" It's not like I'm going to work. I've never gone to wo
my life was school because I didn't really want to do it.
My grandfather was a big figure in the sports world. He started th
Miami of Ohio, Ohio University and all those schools. He loved to play
school, he'd play gin rummy with his friends, and I'd watch him play and he
In high school I played football. I was also in theater and debate, bu
When I went to Dartmouth I wasn't wealthy, but there were a lot of wealthy
played poker all the time. That's where I really started playing. It wasn't a l
privileges. Guys owed me money, and maybe they owned a car, so I got to
runs and things like that. It was almost a barter system from playing poker.
liked it.

Where did you grow up?

 Dayton, Ohio. I was going to go to law school when I got out of Dartm
but a friend of mine had moved out here with his family. I came out to visit
I lost the four hundred playing blackjack the first night. His father worked
to work in the phone room to schedule leads for the salesmen.

Like a boiler room?

Yeah. I needed money so I could go play. At first I didn't even think ab

When it came time for me to go to school, I entered a little poker tourname
So I had over $100,000.

Wow, so it wasn't that little a tournament.

I won about $40,000 in that off a five hundred dollar buy-in. I starte
which was my game at the time. It was the only game I really knew how to
in the summer I played in rake games in Dayton. I didn't know it at the ti
card stud1 back in Ohio, and very poor 7-card stud here in Las Vegas. Th
because most of the big players here were Texans. They played no-limit ho

rake — A fee charged by the house for dealing the game. The house
percentage, from each pot.

I had $100,000 and I was twenty-three years old, having the time of
going anywhere right away. I never left. I got broke a few times. Between
I was probably a millionaire and broke four times. This was back in the '70s
I had a partner, a guy from Dayton named Danny Robeson. He's a v
very good gin rummy player. Danny and I had moved up to the $30-$60
$40,000. Johnny Moss2 had the poker room in the Flamingo Hotel. He o
biggest game in town was there. I was playing in a $10-$20 stud game wai
Danny and I used to play in shifts and we only played 7-card stud. I looked
on, all black chips.3 It's Doyle Brunson, Johnny Moss, Puggy Pearson, Nic
at that time, and a few others [Doyle Brunson is interviewed and Puggy
These were all the top players in the world. They wouldn't let you very c
they were playing high-low split. I played high-low split all the time in coll
I was watching them and they were playing terribly. The buy-in for the ga
for a game like that. In $400-$800 high-low split, it might last you two hand
I called up Danny and he was asleep. I said, "This is the most unbeliev
all these world champions and they're the worst players I ever saw at this g
best players in the world. What are you talking about?" And I said, "Dan
talking about." I convinced him to let me take $15,000 and get into this
nobody knew at all who I was. I was just some kid. It was true. They we
game. In high-low split you just can't play high hands and get away with
raising. The first day I played about ten hours and won $66,000. It was lik
on a Thursday and I played the whole weekend and won about $350,000.
took off.
1
For this and subsequent numeric references 2-4, see "Reese Notes" at the end of this chapter.

Was that the first time you had played for those stakes?

Oh yeah.

What was that like, going from $10-$20 to $400-$800?

It was almost like the jitters I got before a big debate or a football ga
never had a problem thinking about what those chips were worth. Once I g
It never hit me until I was done how much I'd won. Plus, it was so easy
rehashes hands—I've played so many of them in my life—but there was on
was so exciting. I had an A2346 made for low. A wheel is the best hand. In
then an off-suit 6. Nick Vachiano had a 6 and 5 and a couple of big cards
low made. No one could beat me for low. Johnny Moss had a flush and D
unbelievable hand. I wasn't even the aggressor in the pot. I was just callin
trying to jam me out. Puggy is jamming with his 87 because he thinks N
stranger in the game and when you're the stranger, they don't give you cred
and the last card I caught the 5 of hearts. I made a straight flush wheel an
counting the pot down and my profit on that hand was $29,000. It's lik
winning $2,900 on a hand. It's almost impossible to do. That was one han
sent me over the top.

jam—As used here, to bet aggressively. Also known as "ramming and

fast action, as in "a jam-up game."
wheel — In poker, a hand of A2345. The best hand when playing for lo

What about making the transition to playing no-limit? Is no-limit

It's a totally different game. In the beginning it was a big transition. No

really don't care what I play anymore.

Did they beat you up in the beginning? Was there a big learning c

There was a learning curve, but I didn't get beat up because I was very
no-limit I didn't jump in and play with everybody. We started introducing
we'd play one game for a half hour then a half hour of something else. In th
billion players waiting for a seat. I'd won all this money playing 7-card
everybody wanted to play with me. It's hard to explain, but when you're you
as a talent until you've paid your dues. Now I see it happening with other yo
There was Doyle, Johnny Moss, Sarge Ferris. They were all establishe
was young and a stranger wasn't given any credit. It was really great beca
I'd walk in the room and get attacked. Let's play this or that. My partner an
twins." We were the talk of the town. I always got mobbed, because all D
and stud, but I was willing to play anything. So everybody was just att
something. It was fun.
Getting back to your question, I got to the point where somebody wo
something, and I would say "I'll tell you what we'll do. We'll play a half h
hour of high-low split." I knew I was a tremendous favorite in the high-
curve didn't really cost me much.

Nick Vachiano—was he a pool player?

Yeah. Nick was one of the few guys that never got broke. He was a tr
the best pool player in the world, but they always talked about how Nicky
in a pool room or a poker room. He could make a game and he could handi
had was that when he was winning, he was a hit-and-run guy. He'd win a l
number. Most of the time he won, because usually, during the course of a s
he booked a lot of winners and very few losers playing cards, but when he d

game maker — A player who arranges a proposition. A good "gam

favorable bets. To set up a favorable wager in a contest is to "make a good g
go for a number—To take a big loss.

I remember one time we were playing $300-$600 at the Flamingo an

Danny and I were still young and getting started. The game had been goin
were a couple other guys who didn't want to play short-handed, so the g
says, "Hold it." This is the kind of guy he was, and you had to love him for
to the cage. He goes to his safe deposit box, and he's got a big box. I only h
about $300,000 in it and I was proud as hell. He's got all these rubber ban
of money he's gone through. He had these little fingers that were very w
hadn't worked a day in his me. He opens this big box and he probably had a
this here. You know me. I always win and I leave. This is the only time yo
I'm going off." He says, "Are you sure you want to quit?" You can tell whe
smiled and said, "You know, you're right, Nick. Let's go back and play." H
that game. He talked me into staying and winning a bunch of money.

I've heard that back in the '70s there was a lot of cheating goin
did they cheat?

A bunch of ways. There was a mob influence back then. Most of the
along the way.

You mean the mob wanted a piece of their action?

Yeah, and if you didn't give it to them, there was extortion. There wer
me and for a lot of the guys. There was an element around that was bad. T
didn't have the cameras back then that they have now to protect the games.
put marked cards into the games. I was totally naive to that when I first cam

How was it that they didn't bust you? Or did they a few times?

They did many times. But you hear things; people come and tell you th
The way I learned to protect myself back in those days was to be a treme
game with people that I knew I was supposed to beat, and if I didn't beat th
that was all I would lose. If I didn't beat them, chances were something was
experienced I could feel it. It's very difficult, if you're playing with marked
to train your eyes for hours and hours to see marked cards, and some peop
you learn to protect yourself is to feel it. If a guy is playing and you never
a good reason for that: You're folding because he's raising you when you
have a good hand, he folds.
Some of the cheaters were colorful figures who gambled, too. They
couldn't they'd play you anyway. They were guys that everybody liked. If
mad, because when they weren't cheating, it was like you were cheating the
they were. What happened with guys who were cheaters is they never learn
how to cheat and they were bad players. It was a double-edged sword. Yo
know I could be getting cheated here but if I'm not... this guy is pumped u
There were many instances where guys were cheaters and I would brea
would break me. But every time you got it put to you, you kind of learne
did]. Somebody always told you later on or something like that. The o
yourself was to set a number and quit the game no matter how great it looke
That kind of all went away after it got to a point where it got kind of ba

So that all ended when?

About 1979 or 1980. When I had the poker room at the Dunes, I had run
us decided enough was enough. We made a pact to clean it up. Meanwhile,
older guys and they died off or drifted away. Now it's totally clean in the
California the camera systems are good. Guys can't hold out. Occasionally
bosses putting marked cards in or something like that, but most of the est
Then you have to worry about teams and playing partners in the game. Bu
you'll notice that right away. In the big games we police ourselves. At that
something's not right. It doesn't really happen anymore.

holding out — Palming cards and taking them out of the game. The
into his hand when they'll help him.

It seems that a lot of people play in games that are too tough for

The Peter Principle—everyone rises to the level of his own incompeten

Wouldn't a lot of these players do better if they dropped down on

It's the nature of the beast. It's hard to do. Once you've tasted the grape,

Where is the big game now?

Bellagio, that's where all the big action is.

I used to hear these stories about guys winning hundreds of thou

broke a week later.

That's the way it was back in the '70s. The '70s were the most fun tim
was a kid, and so much was happening. It was exciting. It was like being in
Dunes every day with your gun on. You were either going to win a lot o
broke.

But your reputation is that you aren't one of those guys who get b

I matured. Seven-card stud was my game. I was a decent gin rummy

good enough to play at the very top level. Now I'm not afraid to play anybo
back then I was so young and reckless that I felt like I could conquer the
down in games that I really didn't know how to play. They'd play deuce-to
they played all these games I'd never played before and I'd just hop in. The
in the early '70s. So I'd get broke from that.
But I learned to play all the games, because I wasn't afraid to play. A
back then, really good players, and had money, are broke now. The natu
years. Sometimes you're playing stud, sometimes deuce-to-seven lowball;
and the guys who know how to play only one game can play only when tha
and-fork eats them up.

The knife-and-fork?

That's your nut. Your rent and everything come due and you're out of
your game. It turned out to be a blessing in disguise that I learned how to
when you're twenty-three years old, getting broke is no big deal.

Right. You don't have kids. You don't have responsibilities.

I ran the Dunes poker room. I went in to Morris Shenker at the Du

twenty-eight at the time. I gave him a sales pitch and told him I wanted to
what the poker room was doing in terms of figures and I gave him all the
this, and this. If I did, he would have to give me more money. I did it and h
the poker room. From that I started playing big poker again and winning.
By that time I'd learned some of the traps of the town. This is a town o
hold of any money, people were just gunning for you. Not just playing, but
you. If you didn't really know what you were doing, you couldn't avoid the
for not being one of those guys, because I matured quickly. But there was a
was as nutty as everybody else was.

It seems that a lot of guys would make money at one form of gam
like craps or sports betting. They have to know they can't beat craps.

It still happens. A perfect example is this kid Archie (Karas). Here's a

$30 million, and went completely broke. It sounds crazy. You say to your
why didn't he put some of it aside? But who's crazy enough to take all his
at the crap table? Who's crazy enough to just keep betting it all, betting it
him one time, "What's your goal?" He wanted to win the Horseshoe Casino
to get hold of that kind of money doesn't have enough sense to hold on to th
lot of these guys have self-destructive tendencies. It's interesting to see h
money and some guys can't. Some guys that never had it before, they get
know what to do. It's almost like they can't sleep at night until they get rid o

I heard that Archie was playing all the best poker players in th
everybody.

heads-up — To play against only one opponent.

I'll tell you what he did. You heard the whole story about the pool game

No, I didn't hear anything about pool.

He had $2,000 to his name and was sleeping in a 1978 van. He went t
guy who used to be a very good pool player. Archie said, "I'll play you a ga
knew each other from poker and pool. The guy said, "No, I'll play you a ga
have $5,000, so he went to a guy and borrowed the additional $3,000, an
was playing used to be a good pool player, but he hadn't played in year
beating him. They went up to $10,000, $20,000, and when Archie got up
and took his profit, leaving Archie with $100,000.
Archie starts playing $25,000 a game and beats the guy for about $1.8 m
he knew he wasn't playing up to his game. Now the guy started playing bet
and Archie quit.
Archie went down to the Horseshoe and immediately took the milli
Horseshoe had the biggest limits in the world at the time, and he was betti
full odds. He started firing from the hip and won about $3 or $4 million
wanted them to raise their limits and he was playing every day. He was
million. Now there was a poker tournament going on, and he came around h

Did anybody know him before this?

 Everybody knew him. I've known him for twenty-five years. He was a
of money. When he was eighteen, he got off the boat from Greece. He's ac
had two or three hundred thousand many times in his life. He's one of thos
you if possible, but he's great to play with.
He and I played [during his run], and probably no one has ever played
started at one o'clock in the afternoon playing $10,000-$20,000 7-card st
$20,000 razz for half an hour. He thinks Razz is his game. He had a run of
We played from one o'clock in the afternoon until five the next morning
Eventually I got the $2 million back and I beat him and he quit me, and the
He played a few other guys and won, but nothing that big. One time
Archie was not a guy that you really gave credit to when he was broke. I
he ran out of money. I've got him completely on tilt, and he's firing off
money is in the bank. This was on a Friday morning and we'd been playing
me some money?" Now I have to think to myself, am I doing the right thing
I going to lose a customer because he might not pay me? I made the ju
decided to loan him up to a million. So I loaned him the million and beat hi

stuck— Losing money. Usually used in the context of a single session.

tilt— Playing badly or wildly when losing.
firing off — Playing badly and with such reckless disregard that the pla

He called me at my house and said he was going to pay me. My son ha

his games. I said, Why don't you meet me at nine o'clock at such and su
there early. I didn't mistrust him in this way, but I just wanted to make su
that I wasn't going to get robbed. I got there about thirty minutes early a
looked around. Here he comes, driving really slowly like a little old man. I
car and I see him coming down the road like he's out for a Saturday-morni
and comes over. He opens his trunk and he's got a million in cash. I take t
say, "See you Monday" or whatever.
Now, my son's soccer game is going to start and I don't want to miss th
I going to do with this money? I figure, what's the price on someone r
morning at a kid's soccer game? I just put it in my trunk and went and watc
 price — The odds or line on a proposition.

Archie ended up playing other guys too, right?

He did for a while. Everybody beat him. After his roll, there was a sto
magazine saying that he beat everybody and he beat my brains in. I nev
best," I told him. It was good for me, actually. I'm used to taking heat t
slaughtered him after that.

It must be a big problem dealing with that much cash.

It isn't for me because I've always paid huge taxes. I learned at a very
own anything or have anything, you have to pay income tax. You can't hav
the taxes on what you earn. If you're a gambler living out of your pocket, y
can prove you spend. I'm very happy that for the last fifteen years I've pai
tax.

Even if you pay your taxes, though, it seems that the autho
gamblers just because it's cash.

That has happened in sports betting a lot. I bet sports, but fortunately I
one of the reasons I haven't is because I'm a big taxpayer. Why confiscate
back with interest because I have legitimate money.

Also, you don't have to fly with it. A lot of money gets confiscat

That is a big problem now.

I've read stories about Doyle Brunson and Johnny Moss in the
and driving around the country wherever a game would pop up.

That's the way it was back in the '50s and '60s.

 Are there still games like that?

No, not really. The last really neat game we had was in Paris with a g
the early '70s when I was a $30-$60 player at the Sahara, he and his brothe
from Paris and play in the game. They had some businesses in Paris, a
wealthiest men in France. They would come to Vegas and we would play
the big gambler, and he would come to Vegas four or five times a year.
fifteen years ago to visit him. I stayed in a hotel and we played there.
Maybe four or five years ago, Francis was coming to Las Vegas. Right
he couldn't come and that he hadn't been feeling well. He was about fif
conscious. He went and got a physical and he had pancreatic cancer, which
so much to play, but he had to go for treatments every day, so he invited u
went: Bobby Baldwin, Doyle Brunson, Johnny Chan [all three are World
Jack Binion, whom he admired very much. Jack didn't play in the game.
Francis.
Right in the center of Paris was an apartment complex that he'd bough
He had maybe a $150 million worth of art hanging on his walls. I'll neve
around the first day, we went into this huge conference room and sitting ri
table was a backgammon board. He loved to play backgammon.
So we played a big game: 7-card stud $3,000-$6,000 limit, and pot-lim
you couldn't lose more than $75,000 in any one hand. But $75,000 wa
structured. He was a very proud man. He would dress up for the game
morning from ten a.m. to about one p.m. Then we would have lunch, and
then he'd go for treatments at the hospital.
Every day he would ask us what kind of cuisine we wanted for lunch. W
chef in Paris come and prepare everything. We'd break for lunch every da
and fruit and breads, and it would be like a buffet, all made by the most fam
every day, and we stayed for two weeks. When we finally left he was fine;

So he was a good player.

He was a dangerous player. In the long run he was a big loser; he cou
were stealing his money. We left and within three weeks he died. His bro
was going straight down hill. When we got there, he loved it so much tha
weeks.

Poker therapy, I can see it all now.

It was the last fling in his life. The day we left he was so gracious. W
He put on a suit and was going to the hospital. He very graciously said go
he wasn't going to see us again and we knew we wouldn't see him. It was
you next time."

Are there big games in Hollywood?

There is a game, but I'm not allowed to play in it.

Because you're too good?

Well, yeah. They excluded several players. Eric Drache runs that gam
He's played with us for so many years and he's a very good player. One
from back in the '80s, when the first player ratings came out. David Sklans
magazine, or some other magazine back then. He rated all the players in
around players. Eric's game was 7-card stud and he was rated seventh in t
written a paragraph about each guy and he said the only problem with E
through six-rated players every day. That was kind of true. He had a fa
financial trouble. We all loved Eric.

I hear that Gabe Kaplan has a big game.

He used to. I used to play in Gabe's game. We had a lot of fun. I'd go
weeks at a time. The first time I ever played in Gabe's game, I was excited
There were a lot of players in the game and we were playing no-limit ho
p.m. to one a.m. and sometimes there was an after-game. Gabe has a beau
right people were stuck, we had the after-game, which was usually sho
stakes. There were a lot of businessmen in the game who wrote checks
paying for a week or two due to cash-flow problems. The money was
premium. Like any home game, getting paid right away was good. The
There were a lot of people I didn't know. I had a reputation but they'd neve
on a Monday. I said, "This was really fun. If you guys can play on Thursd
and come back and play again." Cash? They were all eager.
I came home for a day or two, and now I was going to the airport and I
I was running late. I left my house and raced to the airport. I was almost
money at the house. I wasn't that concerned because there were other plan
make it. I raced back to my house and pulled into the driveway. I jumped o
top of my car.

Oh my God!

Yeah—$200,000 in a briefcase and it never fell off. That time I realized

I would say so. Did having kids ...

Oh, it changed everything. I always wanted to be married and have ki

thirty-five or thirty-six. I hardly ever play cards anymore.

Really?

Yeah. The only time I ever play is if the game is huge. I haven't p
because I bet on baseball. I'm so rusty or out of stroke that I don't even k
play poker and do it right unless you play all the time. Aside from learnin
about people, especially at the top levels. To be able to read the players, y
hours in. It's like going into war. You probably heard stories about "The Gr

Nick the Greek?

No. There's a guy from Greece, and there are some huge games whe
about the only time I go play. He comes for two or three weeks, and I tak
the Bellagio or the Mirage. Since I got married and have kids, I'm a full-ti
done well at betting sports. I can stay in my house and do that. I'll make gam
here to play. I don't even go to the casinos anymore and haven't for a long t

Do you bet football as well?

I bet football, baseball, basketball.

Other groups have spent a lot of time building computer models

baseball.

Yeah, I think we're the only ones who've ever figured out baseball. I
Computer Group when it started back in the '80s (see "Walters Notes" ). Ba
for college basketball and football. They tried to do baseball, but they got s
groups that have attempted to do baseball. The only other group that's bee
Kids." They really weren't computer guys. They were just really good at
years. They've lost their edge now, I think. There's never been another co
baseball.

Do you use the same approach for football as baseball?

I don't even try to beat pro football. I have different computer people t
best for me.

It seems like a lot of people beat football.

There are ways to beat football. You can beat it by having access to [
are computer programs out there for football. But a pro-football season doe
size. You can have a fluctuation over the course of a season and get destr
for six months and there are a bunch of games every day. You have a lot
best sport because you get a truer reading at the end of the season. One bas
football seasons if you look at the number of events.
 Aren't the casinos making it difficult for you to get money down?

In baseball—yeah, this may be it for me. I don't really need the mon
headache. I can still bet baseball where I can make a lot of money, but I've
I don't want to play for peanuts. I'd rather coach little league and be with m
won't let you bet. I remember several years ago there were a lot of $50,000
on a game and $20,000 on a total. Now if you got a guy who lets you bet $1
in the world.

game/total— In sports betting, the two most common bets are wagers o
on the game (sometimes called the "side") means choosing a team against t
means choosing whether the total points scored by both teams will go above
made by the bookie.

Aren't there a lot of Internet or Caribbean bookmakers?

There are lots of Caribbean places. They take $7,000 here or $10,000
these games. Then you have to put an organization together, which inc
trouble. Even though I don't think I'm doing anything illegal, it doesn't m
someday. You reach a point of diminishing returns. It's just not worth it wit

How did the baseball project come about?

I was down at the Horseshoe at the poker tournament about ten years
said, "You like to bet on baseball don't you?" I said yeah. He says, "I've g
$10-$20 game that tells us his baseball picks and they always win. Would
I went up to the Italian restaurant, which was closed, and we sat up there f
the morning. The kid was a graduate of Cornell. He put together a pro
baseball. The program was very raw compared to what it is now. Now it's
ago the line Wasn't very good either. We forced them to make a better line
line gets better, we do new research in different areas and find new ways t
of them.
 Any game, I think, is like that. Mike Svobodny says that gu
backgammon players ten years ago can't play at all now (Mike Svobodn

Well, computers have changed everything. They roll out a position 80,
know the right answer There's no speculation anymore.

How do you think computers and sophisticated analysis have cha

Same way. I really think it's interesting. Doyle wrote a book back
Course in Power Poker]. He asked me to write the chapter on 7-card stud.
"Doyle, people don't have a clue how to play. If we write I these chapters y
It taught everybody how to play. Since then, people have expanded on
Mason Malmuth and some others have I taken it to the point where every
that book, Doyle gave everyone the basis of how to think, for each I game.
Imagine if Paul Magriel never wrote that book on backgammon [Backg
is profiled in "Svobodny Notes"]. People wouldn't have a clue about how t
that book, none of the great players in the world now would know how to p

But these computer programs still would have been written, a

learned.

Yeah, eventually they would have, but still, the way of thinking has to
a clue. The concepts I of eliminating players, and playing different kin
Vegas, everybody played backwards. It's interesting, because you'd think
people I don't have a point of reference to go to for the right answers, it d
people think. They probably would have learned, but now there are a lot
They're all over the place, even in small games, because they've read every
Of course there's more to it. You can take the top eight poker lavers in
for a month, and probably the same guy is going to wind up with the mone
how to play, it's character. It's [being above] all the things in Las Vegas tha
tremendous talent, but couldn't win for one reason or another. I've always
what people call the best player isn't what it's about. It's not about supers
about, oh, that was a genius move. Those creative genius moves come up o
difference between that and some other play? It's minuscule. It might not s
the guys that do it every day. Whether you're a hundred points winner or a
to play the same way. You're not going to get flustered. You're not going t
stuck. Maybe you have a fight with your wife or your girlfriend; you're no
and just fire your money off, or drink and shoot it off in the pit. It's like
irrelevant. You learn the basics; you do your basic training.
You take two guys on a football field. They're both 6'4" and 250 poun
in 4.2 seconds, or whatever. They both bench-press 400 pounds. They both
never hear from again, while the other guy goes into the Hall of Fame. T
and potential. But there's something that makes some people win. It's a will
describe it.

I think "character" was the right word.

When I think of character, I think of the word "adversity." It's easy

going well. It's like Benny Binion said "It's easy to be honorable when yo
easy to be honorable when you're flat broke. It's the same type of thin
gambling when you're on top. You can look like a superstar.

We touched on fluctuation before. A top gambling writer said th

in poker and book a loser just because of fluctuation.

I don't believe it. Not in poker. I think there are [gambling] situation
think poker is one of them. I can't imagine it. I see that happen to peo
something wrong. Here's what I've always maintained. Gin rummy is a gam
can't really watch your opponent play. You don't see him play his ha
somebody who's better than you, you can see what's happening and learn.
rummy player, because you have no point of reference to learn from. It's
reading a book about how to play. You have to actually play and get a f
replayed in a gin rummy game.
Knowledge creates character in gambling. When I used to play gin rum
have full knowledge of the game, it affected my play. Every time you thr
and it makes him a meld. Or in blackjack, you double down on 11 with a b
and the dealer jams up a 16 and makes 21. It's a terrible feeling. But b
mathematical solution. No matter what you do or what kind of fluctuati
going to affect your play, because you know the right answer. In a game li
young, it affected my play. I fired off a lot of gin rummy scores early in
played differently.
In poker I feel I have tremendous knowledge. Thanks to my years o
anybody can do to me as far as fluctuations ... as far as showing me the W
hours ... that's really going to affect what I think the truth is. If a guy outdra
I'm not going to think he's a good player. I'm watching the layout. I know
I've been through it. I've been through bad periods. But lots of guys in poke
don't have the experience of twenty-five years. I can give you names
superstars, who are supposed to be great players. I see them when they pl
bad; you can't believe how they play. They break down the same way I brok

showing me the World's Fair—A lucky run of cards; every hand is a wi

As far as your question about fluctuation; I don't believe it. I think po

have those kinds of fluctuations [without other reasons]. I think people th
terribly wrong somewhere along the way. Maybe they're quietly steaming
playing, and not telling anybody about them. There are a lot of different exp

Then how long do you think you could lose?

The longest I ever lost in my life was about two or three weeks.

Really?

The worst streak I can remember, I had the poker room at the Dunes
limit. I think we were playing 7-card stud and limit hold 'em, half and
straight and lost about $300,000, which is a tremendous amount playing in
sense that I knew how unlucky I had been. The funny part was I think I go
just as lucky coming back the other way.
These guys that lose all year ... I'll stake guys, try to help out players
were good. There's just something not right when they lose, lose, lose. I
you are. You don't have to wait too long to get your reward. If you really a
playing the best hand, not chasing, knowing where you're at in a hand, gett
beat—it's hard to lose, that's from my perspective. I'm sure people are go
me. I just can't imagine going out and playing Poker for a long time and lo
back on. I always feel I can go out and win a million dollars a year playing

Is there always somebody weak in the game?

Not necessarily. It's a weird thing. There's a plethora of players tod

multiple games. At the Bella-gio they're playing $500-$l,000 limit with six
or forty players that play in these games. They're all pretty good poker p
players at all those games. They're in there playing them all, and they all
everybody; there are some very good players out there. I think the overall t
used to be, from books and everything. But as far as really, really good p
more than there ever were.
You know, people make fun of Doyle, because Doyle is a great action
give action, and some of these guys think he's a bad player. Doyle Brun
always been a great player and, in fact, he's a better limit player now than a
no-limit when I first started. Doyle has a way of marketing himself in a pok
a fool, and he's great. In my mind, of all the people I ever played with,
winner, Doyle is fabulous.

Do any of the young up-and-coming players impress you? Wh

twenty years from now?

I think they'll all be around twenty years from now. I think what's
publicity and tournaments, there's a bigger base of players. There are a lot
of money now. To win $100,000 back in the '70s was a huge score. Now
lose $100,000 like it's nothing. They're all going to make a good living pl
people and put them in a room, the people that merely make a good liv
playing with the people with real talent. It's kind of an irrel evant consid
happen.
 Did you play gin with Stu Ungar [see "Walters Notes"]?

Oh yeah. Stuey is the one who taught me how to play gin. We played f
he was definitely the best player ever. I don't think there was anybody who
genius in many ways, and an idiot in many ways. He had a knack for, ver
picture what his opponent had, like no one I've ever played before. He ha
taught me almost everything he knew about gin. I couldn't beat Stuey.
When he was thirteen or fourteen years old he played some old man in
who was a real good gin player. He didn't play high and he had no reputat
taught Stuey things about gin, and Stuey taught me some of them. I know t
keeping me from getting to the final level at gin. It has to do with the first
thing, and I've never heard anybody talk about it. There is a way to memor
hand in order and formulate a picture of the hand. It's interesting to me
explore it, but there's a missing piece that Stuey had that I don't think anyb
taught him, and it really separated him from everybody else.

What do you think of guys like David Sklansky who are still play

There's an interesting study, because David has always had the rap ag
can't play. I've always thought David was a very good player. I don't think
is the right word, to take his own money and go in there and mix it
understands the value of a dollar. He was never one of those guys who wo
attention to what the chips were worth. You have to have that certain reck
the top—to get in there and really mix it up, and whoever is left standing i
style. He doesn't choose ' that for himself. He's comfortable staying at [the
the aspiration to move up. He's an intellectual guy and I like him a lot
supporters. David understands all the different facets of the game and I thin
learn something. He's a very good writer I always learn something when I
that I can incorporate into my game.

What about Mike Caro's books?

 I like Mike a lot. I think Mike has done a real good job of marketing h
"mad genius" was appropriate.

Do you play a lot of golf?

I play in spurts. I had my knee operated on and can't play much any
around here for twenty-five years. In fact, it was one of the first ways I got
twenty-five, and Jack Binion and Doyle played Danny and me. We played ev
forty people showed up every day [to watch], and we made games and pla
and we would beat them on the front nine every day. The way we played b
the back nine. Coming down sixteen, seventeen, and eighteen we woul
position every day where we could win $80,000 or lose $30,000, and we'd
disgusted that we didn't even want to go out. There was a 7-Eleven store on
and we'd j go there and get TV dinners or something. Then we'd go back
room, and just look at each other and, say, "How did we lose that matc
them." We did this every day for the whole summer. We had about $400,00
Golf has been on and off for years. Doyle was the big catalyst-He's
games. Doyle was not a guy who would try to match up the nuts. Most g
their normal game, they're going to win by the they match up. Doyle alway
well to win. It was easy to make a game with Doyle, but he was a good pl
his leg to where he couldn't play golf anymore. Golf is getting rejuvenated
who are starting to play. There are a bunch of guys who are out there maki
out of retirement. Did you hear about that match?

No.

I have a summer home in Montana on Flathead Lake. About four or

there. I invited about thirty or forty gamblers and we took over the who
about a week and gambled. We'd play golf and went to dinner at night. I
there. Doyle hadn't played golf in maybe ten years. We were at dinner o
patio overlooking the lake. There were about thirty people and everyone
make games. They started proposing games to Doyle. Now Doyle knows w
far as matching up a game, better than anybody.
 Even after laying off for ten years?

He knows when someone is offering him the nuts. He knows how all
really don't have a clue about how to make golf games. They're all rookies.
him about ten different golf games, and he never said a word. Finally, the
were going to it from the blue tees, and he was going to hit from the red,
stroke a hole. Plus, Doyle negotiated to use a tee everywhere, and he didn't
in the ground. He could have a caddie put the tee in for him. He walked wit
and if he'd had to bend over to the tee in the ground, he wouldn't even fin
hole match. Doyle won the first five holes and the match was over. It was ri

Cathy Hulbert mentions in her interview that she thought Darin

stud player.

Danny was always the best 7-card stud player in the medium I games,
played enough in the I big games to really test it, but he's a great player. Bu
figures out a way not to keep his money. He'll I make great plays in a 7-car
how I he plays because we used to discuss hands when we were partners.
$60, there was nobody better! than Danny. He could get people to call bets
the game itself, like splitting pots and those kinds ofB things. He was like a
his opponents. But in the big games it didn't really work for him that we
games than he does in those $75-I $150 games. He's got some great stori
downs.

splitting pots — Deals are sometimes made to divide a pot equally befo
can gain great advantage by convincing opponents to split when he w
conclusion.

Do you have a defining moment? A greatest gambling moment?

That's an interesting question.

 Certainly the time you looked over and saw that $400-$800 high-

It's interesting that you say that because I've had moments in my life
defining moments. I've had million-dollar decisions so many different da
That's a huge amount of money, and certainly it can affect your life, but the
your I structure is in place, it's like a casino. You have a bad day, big de
casino, just like any other professional gambler. You're the house, with the
Or at least you think you have an edge. The outcomes are really that impo
of the daily tine. They're not defining moments, because your defining mom
you there].
That $400-$800 game is much more a defining moment because it wa
the level that I'm at. It was a quantum leap from one atmosphere to another
a defining moment. I have giant decisions every day. I can tell you about
thirteen baseball games and won a million something dollars, or lost eleve
dollars. Those are happy and sad moments in a career, but not defining.

Your son is ten?

Yeah.

So if your son got out of high school or college and said,

gambler ..."

I'd have no problem with it. I really wouldn't. Here's a good story. I'd b
I went through a time with my dad where he didn't even speak to me. I did
kind of a sad thing for my dad. In high school I did everything. I won my
went to nationals. I was programmed to go to law school. I was accepted to
wind up in Las Vegas doing what I was doing crushed my dad. We didn't sp
Eventually, I had a nice home and I was doing real well, an my paren
how I lived. We went around to all the casinos and I knew all the owner
business. My dad realized that this atmosphere wasn't anything close to wh
backroom gambling. Professional gambler is a respected profession in this
Then he started coming out more and more and we got close again.
At one point I went through a phase where I'd made a bunch money
parasite. I wasn't doing nothing for anybody other than giving mone
individuals. But I wasn't making any kind of contribution to society.
Anybody who's educated, if he's any kind of human being I grows up
life. I felt I was living kind of a pointless existence. I really didn't know w
becoming a lawyer certainly didn't thrill me, but that's what I'd started ou
"I'm] getting bored with my life, and I'm thinking about calling Stanford a
know what my dad told me? Here's the guy who didn't speak to me for
crazy? All you can do in life is what you love. You've loved this since you w
When you reflect on it, my dad is right. He knows doctors lawyers, e
Dayton, and he says every single one of them would like to be doing what I
I've figured out ways, as far as community service and Little League, stuf
give me a sense of contribution. It's getting easier and easier because I do a
Poker is probably the game I want to play least right now. I've seen ev
want to talk about a hand; this hand was really interesting. Interesting?
thousand times. It's so uninteresting to me.

Are computer nerds going to be the gambling superstars of tomor

I think the answer is yes.

Maybe, but so far it seems that the nerds need someone else to ge

They can't do it. I know a guy who's a genius. I think he can analyze
ever met. He'll come up with a solution and know whether it's valid. Th
betting five hundred dollars of his own money. There I are a jillion guys l
skill in getting the money down, but a question of heart for betting it at a
most computer guys, even if they know they have a cinch, would rather
instead of fifty percent of the action betting their own money— though the
on the corn-There' s a lot of pressure in fluctuation, especially if you do
interesting to me.
 getting down — To place a bet.
lock—A bet that can't lose; also called a "cinch."
free roll—A proposition in which a person has no liability for losses, but

Getting back to your son being a professional gambler—what wo

I try to teach him even now. I would try to make him understand the di
to have a tremendous command of probability, but also understand all the d
My biggest problem is a marketing problem, not a playing problem. I
different ways—heads-up games, different things in poker—that even th
handed game, and they can't stop me from sitting down, the real value is g
or short-handed. Stay up for two or three days, that's when it really gets
between the poker player today and the poker player of old. Fifteen or twe
at the poker room—I'm talking about Doyle, myself, Sobby Baldwin, Jo
World Series Champion, Moss won in '70, '71, and '74, and is profiled in
sit for twenty-four hours. That was a normal session. And whoever was
were the two best players in the world at something and were the first two
It was that mentality, a warrior's mentality. It was a neat, fun, romantic life.

short-handed—A game with few players.

Nowadays, there are too many computer guys around. They'll say, I go
guy's maybe a lit better than me, so I'll wait and take the eighth seat in this
right for me. These guys cost themselves a fortune.
I know from experience that you're looking for drop-ins in poker game
them. If you had four guys who were tough players, you just played. Eve
there, the game is there, and somebody would! come and sit down. The ga
weeks and you'd all wind up with money. People don't do that anymore.

drop-in—A player who is not a regular

Right now there is an older gentleman who plays at the Bellagio. He

bunch of money [in business], and he's not a very good player. The game
the way in his car or not going to be there in fifteen minutes, they won'
That's very distasteful to me. It's rude. And there are a lot of players like th
out his own best way to make a living, but it didn't used to be this way. It w

You were saying that marketing yourself became a problem.

Yeah, eventually I got to the point where I beat a lot of guys playing b
the best backgammon player in the world. I've won a lot of money in my li
beat a lot of guys playing gin rummy and I beat a lot of guys playing poker
even though I tried not to. It's almost like you run out of customers. I d
never won the world championship.

Don't you think some people want to play with you because of m

Some do. But more don't. With the lifestyle that I lead ... I spend a I lot
money. I can't go and play $200-400 or $300-$600.1 have to find other ven
got to the point where the games were too small for me. The game of pok
just aren't games every day where you win or lose two- or three-hundre
sports. I've always been, personality-wise, very good at getting guys to si
handicap game, but you can only do it so many times. There is a finite num

handicap game—A game in which the opponents do not start equally

player is given extra strokes. In poker the handicap is often money odds. E
10% to his opponent if he wins.

And it's a lot of work traveling all over. If the action is in L.A., you g
you go to New York. I can't do that anymore. My son is in Little League
I'm really involved with their schoolwork. If I'm gone two days, I feel lik
worth it to me anymore to do that. That doesn't mean that I won't play anyb
There's nobody I won't play if the conditions are right.

For the guy back in Dayton right now who wants to be a poker
books or software?
 It s all good. A guy can read the books, depending on what his game
Peter Principle take its course. You'll find out how good you are.
People say, "I'm as good as those guys." If you are, you'll be there. The
at $10-$20 and go to H40, $40-$80, then to $80-$160. The games are there
there to be made if a guy is good enough to make it.

How tough do you think it is to beat those games?

I think it's tougher now than it used to be. Most of the games are game
or eight-handed game, you're really limited in how you can play. You hav
get down to four- and five-handed, with bigger antes, which happens more
I lot more strategy involved. It's worth it to win the antes. You can I man
the players. When you're playing in a seven- or eight-handed game, it's h
because somebody else is going to have the hand You can't play the wors
game You just have to play solid poker.

ring game — A full (or near-full) table. In hold 'em a ring game would
card stud, it would be eight players.

One of the nice things about being a professional gambler is that there
work for a big firm, and not only do you have to be good at your job, you
bullshit. You have to play the game and hope you catch the right break to
than your talent can keep you from going to the top.
In gambling, that's not the case. In gambling you control your destiny.
means nothing. You know that from probability. The right answer will com
like that, so you can get sidetracked. But gambling is one of the purest
where you can rise to the top solely on your talent. If you're the best, you'll

Reese Notes

1—Poker Variations
 There are hundreds of different types of poker games, but only a few
popular are: hold 'em, 7-card stud, Omaha, and Omaha high-low split. Als
deuce-to-seven lowball, and razz.
Casino poker has three different betting structures, the most common
range from $2-$4 to $3,000-$6,000 and higher. What this means is tha
increments of the lower limit, and later betting rounds are in increments o
'em game, a player may bet $3 increments before and after the flop (t
community board), then $6 increments on the turn (fourth community car
card). The other two betting structures are pot-limit and no-limit. In no-lim
in front of him at any time. In pot-limit, a player may bet as much money as

2—Johnny "The Grand Old Man of Poker" Moss

Johnny Moss won the inaugural World Series of Poker held in 1970, t
one of only two men to win wee times.
Moss grew up in Odessa, Texas, and began playing poker at the age o
gambler, playing throughout Southwest, until a fateful phone call in 19
arranged a poker game in Las Vegas. Moss would play the Greek" Dandolo
era.
Binionon set up the no-limit game near the doorway of his down-town
gathered to watch the two men fire hundreds of thousands of dollars back a
played for five months and, though account vary, Moss won between $2 m
hand, the Greek reportedly uttered the famous line, "Mr. Moss I must let yo
Moss continued playing poker in Las Vegas until 1995 when he died at

3—Color Code
In casinos, gamblers play with chips, which are color-coded according
somewhat, but typically, silver (metal tokens) or white chips are worth $1,
are $100, purples or grays are $500, and amounts above that are subject to
casino. Players often refer to the level they play at by color, as in, "I bet bla
Chips are also nicknamed for the denomination of coins. A $5 chip is
chip is a quarter. A big nickel is a slot term for a $5 token. A nickel is also
a dime in sports betting means $1,000.
 4—Cash Culture
Gamblers at the level of Chip Reese (and the seven others in this bo
toward cash. They win it, lose it, store it, carry it, play it, flash it, and
amounts, without a second thought. Chip Reese thought nothing of goin
million dollars in cash in the trunk of his car. In other interviews, Alan Wo
$400,000 in a paper bag and Tommy Hyland uses a treasure map to dig up
in the Bahamas.
Gambling is a game, and cash is the way the score is kept, tot a gamble
And since gamblers deal with such large amounts of money every day they
One gambler made a comparison to auto mechanics, who think nothing
mechanic. "You loan him the wrench and expect he'll return it in good co
you expect him to replace it. Well, my wrench may be a bundle of fifty-tho
ever worry about someone not returning their wrench? Tommy Hyland sai
trusting each other.'
Having and carrying cash has caused problems of some sort every o
September 11,2001, the eminent and law enforcement were highly sus
amounts of currency. Since then, it's gotten worse Anyone with cash is be
launderer, tax evader, or criminal of some kind. Cash is often seized, base
modern-day civil-forfeiture procedures can make it extremely difficult an
the cash-carrier is never charged with a crime. As of this writing, Billy Wa
million in seized cash. One gambler put it this way, "It's just something yo
be in this business. It's another part of the game."

TOMMY HYLAND

Tommy Hyland runs the most successful blackjack team in the history
trained and tested card counters, then sent them into casinos with piles o
zigzagging across the United States and island-hopping in the Caribbean.
map in the Bahamas to uncover a buried stash of $140,000 that a teammate
facilitate a currency transfer.
 The casinos have faxed his picture to each other for two decades
appearance change more often than the weather. He's been to Hollywood
has been straight and curly; he's also been bald. He's used facial hair, c
Christmas Eve he went into a casino dressed as Santa Claus, only to hear
more of your action."
Playing blackjack for a living hasn't been all fun and games. An angry
him and demanded the casino's money back. On another occasion he was th
the officials scurried to carve up his bankroll.
Usually, however, Tommy enjoys the high life that goes hand in hand
the first-class airline tickets, limousine transportation, luxurious digs, and
rolling suckers, usually unaware that he's getting their money, to boot.
Arriving at a Las Vegas Strip casino for our interview, I give the fron
this week. I ride a private elevator to a luxury suite. Tommy greets me at t
its marble floors and gold fixtures is larger than my home, and probably cos
"Let's order room service," he says. After all, the casino is paying.

Do you remember the first bet you made as a kid?

Seems like the first gambling I ever did might have been a bet on so
pitch coins against the wall at times.

At what age?

I'm going to guess I was in fifth grade, maybe ten or eleven year old.

Pitching nickels, dimes?

We used to pitch nickels, dimes, or quarters against a brick wall. The c

other guy's coin.

Did the players practice at all? Did you try to get an edge?

Yeah, I think we did practice. Might have flipped by ourselves some

sports a lot, shooting baskets or other games. What else did we do? Golf.

How old were you when you started playing golf?

I think I was about ten or eleven. We used to play for a soda or a dollar

Where did you grow up?

New Jersey.

Did your parents gamble?

My dad gambled, but nothing serious. He liked to go to the race-track a

golf for a dollar or two-Nassau. He used to be a pretty good pool shoote
something like that.

Did you play a lot of sports in high school?

Yeah. Basketball, golf, and baseball. I played pretty much everything.

Once you got into high school, did you start betting sports?

Yeah, but not to a great extent. In high school, I'm ashamed to say no
parlay cards. I used to get one from a guy, and I'd photocopy it, and back m

parlay card — A card listing all games and their point spreads for a gi
two or more games, and all games selected must cover the point spread in o
each game added.

Why are you ashamed to say that now?

Well, it's pretty much the only time I've ever been the house. I've alwa
dad's work had them, so he'd bring them home. The payouts were so bad
other guys doing it, but they were just returning the standard payouts, so I

Did you make any serious money doing that?

I made money for a while: thirty dollars a week, or fifty dollars a w

remember I got the bright idea of trying to create more business. I made u
games, and apparently they were pretty bad. I got waffled one week and I
table lost about four or five hundred dollars and I think that was the last tim

waffled—To take a big loss.

How did you get into blackjack?

By the time I was in college, I was playing cards all the time. I played
in gambling in general We used to golf a lot for money.

Where did you go to college, and what were you studying?

Wittenberg in Ohio. I was basically being a bum. I was supposed to b

was on the golf team. I was I playing golf, shooting pool, and playing card
and I just picked up some books on blackjack. I started reading them
practicing.

Did you also pick up books on poker?

No, I never really did.

But you were beating the game?

Yeah, I was beating the game there, but I remember in college the I
were a lot of bad debts. I gradually got out of playing poker. We were play
any good at poker or backgammon, but I was better I than the guys I was pl
now, it was horrible. It seems like we got Revere's book from the bo
Business]. My roommate and I started practicing blackjack, and he was m
was from Ohio, but he stayed at my house for Christmas break. I lived abou

What year was that?

This would have been 1978 I guess, Christmas of '78.

So Resorts had just opened.

Yeah, it had just opened earlier that year. My roommate stayed at v

drove down to Atlantic City and back every day. I went down with him tw
basic strategy, but we really couldn't count.
1
I didn't have any significant result, but he won. That
was when they had early surrender and you had an
advantage off the top. I guess he was able to count a
little bit, but he won eight out of ten times or nine out of
ten. He won several thousand dollars. He'd always
been a loser in our college gambling—a heavy loser. I
said, man, if this guy can win all these times, there
might be something to this. So, after I went back to
school, I started reading and practicing more. We had
only the one book as I recall. Then I guess I went down
to Atlantic City on and off. I thought you had to be a
memory expert to keep the count—that it wasn't really
possible to do it yourself unless you had some
extraordinary gift.

basic strategy — The mathematically correct way to play every hand b

the dealer's up card. Basic strategy varies slightly for different rules and n
basic strategy, the casino advantage in a multi-deck blackjack game is only a
off the top—The first hand of a new deck or shoe.
1
For this and subsequent numeric references 2-8, see "Hyland Notes" at the end of this chapter.

Even given what you were reading? It's a respected book.

 Yeah, because Revere's book—and [the same is true of] later books
physically do it. It really doesn't say how you get your speed [counting car
pretty confusing. Some of Revere's ch were great. They're still good today
act of counting wasn't explained properly. A friend and I would sit next to
cards and he'd count the low cards. We'd whisper after every hand what he
get a count. We did this for hours and hours, and we were winning. We
thousand dollars and after several months, we had three or four thousand ea

How much were you betting?

We were way over-betting. You had to play a $5 table back then; th

International was the only casino open. I'm going to guess we were betting

So you got lucky that you didn't tap out.

Oh sure, sure. We were fortunate not to tap out. Then we met a I guy
Stanford Wong2 [ProfessionalBlackjack]. This guy came to our table and
explained to us that you have to wait until the person on first base gets h
keeping J the count and canceling out. So we started practicing, and obv
able to do it ourselves. Then we met two other counters. They each had a
I'd read Ken Uston's book [Million Dollar Blackjack], which talked about t
really glamorous to us. We decided to trust the other two counters. My r
$4,000. Now we had this massive $16,000 bankroll. We started really firi
about October of '79. We didn't realize you could keep books. We used to
We'd each have $4,000and we'd agree to all play until a certain time. B
barred betting small. I guess we were betting up to a hundred or two [a han
i night. We'd start at eight p.m. and we'd play until almost closing' and then
the money.

first base--The first seat to the dealer's left and the first to play. The ' at
play is called "third base."
canceling — While counting cards, matching a plus- and minus-value c
in the count, because the two cards cancel each other.
getting barred — Being excluded from playing by casino personnel.

We didn't keep track of hours. We just all assumed we were all going t
it by win or anything like that. We just whacked it up each night. It seems
nights a week for quite awhile. Then we met this annoying guy, Not Too
pestering us. Oh, can I get on your team? He thought we were big shots no
get on the team and we brushed him off a few times and finally we decide
maybe up to twenty-five grand at this point, plus he put in an equal share
bankroll. It seemed like we won pretty regularly. Like I say, this guy begge
and then every time he played he won, so he said, "Oh, I should have kept
remember about Art. Just complain and complain: "Why'd I ever get on thi
on my own."

whack up — Divide money.

By this point, did you guys know anything about how much to bet?

A little bit. I could figure out a little, but I'm not super sharp at ma
"Experiment" we had a forty-fifty-thousand-dollar bankroll. That was in
during the Experiment. After the Experiment, I wanted to keep playing, m
had gotten Sanford Wong's book, Blackjack in Asia. They decided to g
teaching all my friends from the golf course. That's kind of how I got in
fifteen or twenty guys by the end of 1980. I'd teach them, test them, and pu

What percentage of guys would actually test out?

Pretty much everybody I tried to teach. I just looked around to see whi
made some poor judgment. and ended up with some bad people, but over th
mostly good people. I've never really found am, body that—there's maybe
to teach—I just gave up on.

test out—Prospective team members are often tested on their playing sk

count down a single deck in less than 20 seconds, or play a 6-deck shoe
analyzed.

Many people say they want to learn, but they don't really want to

After awhile I just gave people a basic strategy card and showed them
back when you have basic strategy memorized and you can count down a
of those people never came back, but most were able to learn.

So you started teaching these guys, and you became the administ

Yeah, [back] then we'd just play with my money and when we dl win a
We did it in a really simplistic fashion, and I know there were lots of ineq
either unfair to the investors or the players. I didn't really know mu
Sometimes the way I structured it we had the wrong incentives. You've
structure a bankroll. It can be pretty bad something extreme happens. If
don't have it structured properly, nobody wants to play. That's happened a l

What happened with the first big losing streak?

These things all seem to run together. I was always pretty lucky. I rem
guys who were much better blackjack players than we were. They were m
were having some tough luck and were struggling. They couldn't believe
some fight--maybe the Holmes-Cooney fight, or one of those fights a
hundred thousand over just a weekend. I think we had twenty players out
them won.

Have you ever had a bankroll that crashed and burned?

I remember we got involved with a guy named Rats Cohen. I always

sharp with math, because I wasn't that good myself. This guy Rats talked a
guy, kind of impressionable, and he was pretty impressive. He had an ap
me over and showed me this computer equipment. All he needed was a ban
we were all going to get rich. Our team took one-third of our bankroll a
kinds of delays. There were never really any significant results, and he
players seemed very skilled. I liked his operators, but the money just d
hundred-dollar eyeglasses and paying for a real nice apartment. It was a nig
He seemed to not always bet the money mathematically. That bankroll w
losing two-thirds of our money.

What did you do at that point?

I think that's when we lost early surrender in Atlantic City. My recoll

few of us came out here to Vegas to play, and shortly after that I ended up
Red and a few others.

bank — The money put up to play with.

How did playing with computers 4 come about?

We'd been hearing about them. We rented a house out near Sam's T
hardware from a guy. I remember all of us were in this house, or maybe f
absolutely no furniture. We had one table and we all slept on the floor. I
had no curtains either. That was the only room with a tinted window, so wa

This probably goes against most people's vision of professional

the high life.

We were playing blackjack on a bankroll, but we were waiting for the

with the boots and all, and we'd practice every day in this house. We did r
made a lot of money.

You had some problems in the Bahamas over this, right?

Right. In 1985, Nevada made it illegal to play blackjack with a comp

new thing. They weren't used in everyday life the way they are now. The
been glorified in a Sports Illustrated article that made Ken Uston and Keith
blazing a trail through Nevada making money. It said right in the article
weren't cheating devices. When Nevada passed a law against them, my
Nevada was ever able to get it passed was because the casinos control all th
be legal. You are just using the information that's freely presented to y
anywhere else. I had our lawyer check Wj see if there was any law in the
using them, and there wasn't. So we continued to play everywhere else in
except in Nevada. We were playing in Atlantic City, in the Bahamas, and
Caribbean.

So what happened?

The casinos were starting to figure out how to spot the computers. T
with their feet moving, or sitting with their feet flat on the floor. At Cable
me with a computer and pulled me into the back room. The casino manag
police were assigned to the casino. They asked me to pull up my pant
computer. They said, "You're lot of trouble. We make a nice casino down
yourself and this is the kind of thing you do." The casino manager di
Bahamian police who were mad, or maybe it was just part of their act. My
even play blackjack at the time. When she came into the hotel, they grabbe
all the money I had in a safe-deposit box. They held me and started com
could charge me with. They held my wife for about thirty-six hours. The
who was charged with murder. They did all kinds of things designed to inti
They finally decided to arrest me, and put me in the central lockup w
filthy situation. I was in there for two days. It looked really serious. They
me in prison for five or ten years. Somehow I got word to my two lawyers
They weren't allowed to practice there, so they hired a Bahamian lawyer. T
the only thing they understood was money. Everyone you ran into was figu
the money. I think they had $140,000 of mine and they were trying to figu
up.
So anyway, my wife got out of there. She flew home. There were all
that I'd plead guilty to some sort of fraud and get a suspended sentence. It
me out of there. I wasn't going to win any trial down there, so even thoug
unethical, it was clear that I had to pay them off and get out. The lawyer ne
about half the money returned the other half. Then, right when I was sup
Bahamian lawyer says, "By the way, when you get the other half of you
thousand of it." We'd paid him $15,000 and he'd worked only about two ho
barrel, so we decided do that, too. I lost close to $100,000.
I went to an actual court proceeding. With their accents, you couldn't ev
It was amazing. Yen, had to be there, because you couldn't imagine. They
in a foreign language. I didn't know what was happening. I don't know w
assured me that it wouldn't matter, that it would never be recognized in the

But it showed up in Canada?

Well, I don't think it showed up anywhere on a computer or thing. Bu

Canadian casinos use this to get our group and me out of there. Apparentl
that if you're convicted of a felony in another jurisdiction that would be pu
prison in Canada, you can be deemed not admissible [into Canada]. So th
Canadian immigration, tried to invoke this. I was able to win that case and I

It was just harassment, wasn't it?

Right. A bunch of my friends were counting cards and were exchangin

The Canadian casino in Windsor tried to make it out like some sort of fraud

This was your team?

Yes, these were people who played for me. I tried to go up there and g
to the press. Public sympathy was obviously on our side. The incident wa
front-page story three or four days in a row; all about this trial and about th
cheating. Once the press got hold of it and interviewed the people involved
side. I think the casino tried to bring up the incident in the Bahamas to s
make me out to be a convicted felon.

You talk about using the press. This is a tactic that an ongoing b
right? Using publicity, having lawyers on retainer—didn't you even h

All we were there to do is play a game according to the rules that the c
my view. The casino can make any rules they want. We'll either beat the ga
don't think we can beat it. But even though we operate ethically and legall
us. Unfortunately, it's been necessary to hire lawyers. And yes, we even hir
powerful and they've gotten a lot of laws passed that are probably not in t
hired lobbyists a couple of different times to try to get our views heard by t

Do you think that running a blackjack team is the same as runnin

I'm sure there are lots of similarities. One of the main differences I've
meet blackjack players, can't believe that we just hand each other mass
comes back and reports how he did. He might say he lost $20,000 or $50,0
it down; we believe him. That's probably the biggest difference that comes
that we don't lose all our money from people stealing it.

So you find that professional gamblers are much more honest than

Yeah, I've been fortunate. The ones I've been associated with are incre
incidents, but most of the time we've been pretty successful. We've mad
other.

Reputation seems to be everything in this business.

There's word of mouth. I may not even know a person, but if he know
vouch for him ... We've loaned large amounts of money to people we hard
could vouch for them.

Didn't you have trouble at another island casino?

St. Kitts. It's an island in the Caribbean. That's been pretty much wh
place. I've played most every place in the Caribbean. So I went to this isl
casino. They had a pretty good game, maybe six or eight blackjack tabl
owner, who took an active role in running the casino. He was always on t
dealer out of the way and say, "Let me deal for awhile." He got to like m
with him every day. I was also doing pretty well; I won almost $30,000 in t

floor— The casino playing area.

On the last day, he saw me walking through the lobby and called m
going back to Philadelphia in the morning, aren't you?" I said, "Yeah." H
something to a friend of mine back there?" I said, "Sure, I'll do that for you
room and I'll get it." So I went with him to his room and he went to a desk.
a gun, and pointed it at me. He said, "I know who you are. I know what y
you won." He had a piece of paper, it was a Griffin5 report, and he was read
and-so, card counter, card-counting team—he's reading from it and he say
he's holding this gun. I was young and foolish at the time, and I said to him
my money. Besides, I won it fair and square. You do whatever you have to
you."

That's pretty ballsy with a gun pointed at you!

I'd hand it over in about three seconds nowadays.

So he said, "Okay, we're going for a walk then." It was night. We walk
prodding me with the gun in my back. We were walking down this narrow
twenty steps I said, "I changed my mind. You can have your money back."

Do you think this guy really would have shot you? Killed you?

I doubt it... Maybe. He ran that whole island. He might have been able
the whole thing and he was really pissed. I think he was also hurt. He
walked back to the main building. He went to the office and told a girl w
deposit box. He said, "Count out $30,000," because I had more in there. I h
"I think I only won $29,000." He said, "All right, count out $29,000." I g
have a nice trip. See ya' later."
 Then, he went back toward his hotel room and I was all shook up. I w
right across the way from his, and I saw him leave. I don't remember exact
somebody else and I said, "I'm going to go in there and see if I can find my
looked around for the money, but I never found it. When I got back to the U
nasty letters and call the Prime Minister, or whatever he was called
satisfaction. It was lost.

Have you had other incidents where money has been stolen from

Unfortunately, we've had a fair number of these incidents. One of my

Aruba. He was down there with his girlfriend and the casino got a flyer
computer player. By that time we would never play with a computer anyw
We would never take a computer to the Caribbean at that point. He was d
cards. They insisted he had a computer. They searched him. They searche
rental car. They searched his hotel room. He had front money on deposit a
computer; we just can't find it. We're keeping your money." Coincidental
also. He did the same thing I did. He made inquiries, but it was lost. It didn

front money— Money put on deposit in the casino's cashier (cage) to ga

Tell me the story about the treasure map

That's when I was playing with a guy named Spike. It was before
Bahamas. We were all traveling back and forth to Freeport and Nassau to p
computers we were using and they had high limits. We didn't want to carry
out of the country, but we couldn't really figure out how to leave money
would come in from the team].
So Spike decided to bury it a couple of miles away from the casino. H
then he got tied up with other things and he didn't really want to go back t
asked me to get his money down there. He said, "It'll be easy; you can't m
spot, and from there you follow the map."
Well, the map left a little to be desired. Spike had landmarks that were
and you were supposed to figure it out from there. My wife and I took pro
When we did, the box he put it in was all rotted, the money was moldy an
the casino to play and they said, "Where did you get this?" It was about $14

Has carrying cash become a big problem in the U.S.?

It seems like it. Especially traveling through airports. We've also had ot
with money and I've heard of other people having problems. These law
money laundering and drug dealing. People don't re-e how much the laws
The y some of the laws are written, local police who stop people with
directly. So they're not anxious to give you the benefit of the doubt.
There have been some real horror stories. These drug agents, police, a
who don't speak English. They find any excuse to take their money, and the

Let's talk about the Griffin Investigations. What was your first ex

My first experience with them was when I got barred at the Sands bac
famous by Ken Uston's book [The Big Player,6 by Ken Uston and Rog
Nunez. He pulled me into the back room and took my picture. I found out s
flyers out on me, and that I was now in the Griffin Book.

back room — To be "back roomed" is to be detained by the casino if su

Did you notice an immediate effect from that point when you wa

Yeah. Now, instead of being barred because of my style of play, freque

they barred me. I don't think back then I knew how all this Griffin stuff w
by some of the things they knew.

And Griffin, it turns out, was responsible for you being arreste
episode in St. Kitts.

The bad thing is a lot of these foreign jurisdictions don't really underst
Griffin doesn't make much of a distinction as to what activity you're up to
and they explode. They figure you're a scam artist and you're cheating
incidents. The other thing they do when they list me or some other old-time
computer players. Well, none of these people have used computers since t
They used computers only when they were legal. So a lot of times in thes
legitimately thinks you have a computer or they use it as an excuse to sear
of your money, claiming they know you had a computer. That's what happen
reason he lost his money was because he was listed in the Griffin Book
make any distinction that you only used a computer when it was legal.

Isn't that libel?

You would think so. Some other card counters and I have tried to s
anywhere. Libel and slander are some of the toughest cases to win. If they
you have to prove it's deliberately malicious. Somebody like me, even tho
by the general public, is a public figure for purposes of the case, because I'm
Someday, I'm sure, someone will win a big case against Griffin. Fo
middle of Kansas sees this picture that looks like a mug shot and finds o
going to treat you like some sort of criminal. Right on the top of the pa
"Cheating Activity," and then it has your picture. Then it just happens to m
Someday this [mislabeling] will backfire on them.
But I don't want to overemphasize the effectiveness of the Griffin agenc
can still play more blackjack than I have time for. I can't play in every sing
well known, particularly in Atlantic City, but that's not because of Griffin.
just have to move around.

Do you wear disguises?

These days I don't. I try to change my overall appearance, so I don't h

time I go out to play. I don't quite have the energy to do that. I'll dye my ha
curled, cut it short, grow it long, things like that. I have ordinary features
seem to forget my face fairly easily.

Didn't you get barred once as Santa Claus?

 That was back in Atlantic City, where they used to have this three-st
barred they'd tell you that you were welcome to play any other game excep
barred you, they'd say you weren't welcome on the premises at all. And if
get arrested for trespassing.
I think at the time I had already gotten to the second step at Harrah's, so
Eve of dressing as Santa Claus. I was just going to fire away from minimu
it would be treated as the first step, because they wouldn't have any i
happened.
There were four or five of us in there at once. One guy heard a floorper
betting two hands of a thousand down here. Another guy is betting purpl
going crazy." It was pretty funny and it worked out perfectly. They just re
were laughing while they did it. They thought it was pretty funny. They too

Did you ever go black or Asian, trying to change your race?

I never did that. The best disguise I ever had was when I went to Ho
from this guy Ziggy, who's a famous wig maker. I guess he made w
celebrities. This was a long time ago, fifteen years, maybe. He was the onl
looking bald wig. I paid $2,500 for this balding blond wig. It looked really
a wig. I got a lot of play out of that. It was worth more than the $2,500 I pa
Mike Westmore, who I believe won an Oscar for the makeup in the movie M

Were you able to talk okay with the fake teeth?

I sounded a little different. They were a little uncomfortable. I remem

modified. That was probably the best disguise I ever had. But it took for
dyed. They had to keep re-dyeing them. I had this spirit gum to attach th
ready to go play. My wife used to have to put it on me. You couldn't put it o

Any other particularly outrageous stories that happened in casino

I wasn't the sharpest guy around when I first started playing. I've lear
people I've worked with. A lot of the things we did weren't particularly pr
of fun. We would all go into these Atlantic City casinos at the same time.
bet. We really didn't care if we got barred. The casinos were contending w
that they were required to go through. They had to come over, pull you awa
card. Only a certain person was authorized to do it. We figured if we had fi
get everybody at once. That used to be fun.

When did the law change so that they were no longer allowed to
After Ken Uston7 won his case. I guess that was in 1982.

And did that hurt the games? Was it better for you when they cou

Some people think that. I don't. I know a lot of card counters prefer it
They think the rules are better, the games are better. I'll always campaign f
right that casinos are able to do that. We've certainly made plenty of m
haven't been allowed to bar us. It's much more comfortable to play when
hauled off to some back room or getting arrested or harassed. As far as
players agree, Atlantic City is the place you're least afraid of encountering
worst that can happen is they're going to shuffle the cards on you. I like tha

Will you still play out of the country?

I'll play out of the country. I won't play in those ridiculous places anym
or any of those islands, but I'll play in Canada. I've played in Australia. I
I'd play in some of those countries. All the countries that I view as civilize
guys with all kinds of money will go to these crazy places to play blackja
rule or something. It just doesn't seem worth it to me.

Say, for instance, Sri Lanka?

Yeah. Or Russia. A player I know was talking about going to Russia. T

something. That just seems like insanity to me.
 Do you have different people who do different things on your te
same game?

We have different levels of skill. That's another thing about this Griffin
have people that can barely pass our test. The Griffin flyers make them sou
these people sound dangerous, like they're Einsteins, the casino is likely
our players are just regular card counters.

Have you branched out into other forms of gambling?

I do a lot of sports betting. I don't bet my own opinions, but I have so

and I'll bet money on their selections.

One of the things that Alan Woods mentions is that computer

gambling [Alan Woods is interviewed in Chapter 7].

That's true. Unfortunately, I'm computer illiterate. I don't use one.

Do you use them to analyze games at all?

We use Stanford Wong's program, Blackjack Analyzer. It's great. You

win rates by hand, and make all these assumptions. In the old days you'd as
thought a game was worth. Now there's no more of that nonsense.

Is there a computer model involved in the sports betting that you

I'm sure these guys do computer work. I'm not really privy to it. I'm n
my money and they get a share.

Woods mentions a horse-racing play that you were involved in.

I collaborated with Alan. We made $27,000, and the horse's name was
was the horse that won, or we pumped so much money on. Back then there
Vegas. If you bet at the casino race book, the money didn't go into the track
at track odds up to a certain amount. They would pay as much as 10- or 15
track on a bad horse and make him the favorite, and make the true favorite
we did.
Three or four guys from our blackjack team went to Keystone Racetrac
in Vegas; I guess we ad our watches synchronized. We bet as much as w
horse in the race, to show. It was a small track, so it didn't take much mon
as the best horse finished in the top three, we would win. That horse paid a
monster amount to show [$6.60], because there was relatively no money
money was on this 50-1 shot.
That was fun, too. I believe our total take, split about twenty ways, wa
we got stories in the newspapers. Both in Las Vegas and in the Philadelp
doesn't appear that there was any illegal activity." I think this was done
dogs in Arizona, but it got to be an old trick. You couldn't bet a lot of mone
a few more of those incidents.

How did your parents feel when you first started playing?

They were pretty conservative. They were hoping that it was a phase a
"real" job. My father is ceased. My mother accepted it. She's used to it now

You didn't start her playing?

No. My mother actually is pretty amazing. She's eighty-seven years ol

five times a week. They did special on Philadelphia's eleven o'clock news s
playing tennis. She still moves around pretty y good.

Are there more benefits to playing on a team than just smoothing

There are a lot of great things about playing on a team. There's the cam
travel with. You share information. You learn things from each other. It se
ideas when you have a team. One guy has the germ of an idea, and he bou
adds to it, and all of a sudden you've got a great project. There are advant
I've never really played on my own, but there are a lot of successful players

It seems like it would be a lonely game if you're playing it on yo

Some people who play on their own also do other things. There aren't
use blackjack as their sole source of income and play on their own.

Any more stories come to mind?

I'll tell you my famous one. It's not really famous, but [Stanford] Wong
he was giving one of his talks. This was when we were playing mostly
friends who grew up in my neighborhood. They had a son who was a li
going to college. As a way to make money in the summer, he asked if he c
me. He was a real smart kid and I knew he was honest. So I said, "Sure, I'll
I taught him, and he played Atlantic City and did well. Toward the end
a trip to Las Vegas. One of his first plays was at the Sands. He was winning
a hand. They didn't have anything bigger than hundred-dollar chips in the ra
piled up, maybe $7,000 or $8,000 worth in front of him.
The shoe went negative and he decided to count his money to see how
his chips off the table, and as he was heading to the restroom, he noticed a s
looking at him. Now he'd heard about getting barred in Las Ve-gas, and
roughed up in the back rooms. So he ducked into the restroom, went into a
out his chips and was counting his money while sitting on the toilet. All of
stall door. He opened up the stall, and there was this big security guard. T
said, "What are you doing?" He had all his chips, and he was fumbling
counting my money." And the security guard said, "In the ladies' room?"

That's classic.

Another time... Like I said, when I first started out we were really agg
all the time. Most times we wouldn't say anything while we were being us
we'd ask them, "Why?" Actually, we'd say all kinds of things. Every situati
our players was in Puerto Rico and he was down $4,700. The casino mana
want you to play blackjack anymore." A lot of times, when being barred wh
"Well, are you going to give me back the money that I lost?" And of cours
this time, the casino manager said "OK, we will." And he gave our guy $4,
and he said, "OK, just never come back in here again." That was at the o
main drag there.

You mentioned being back-roomed. Does that still go on?

There don't seem to be many back-roomings, but there's still a lot

nowadays is to electronically lock you out of your room. Your plastic key c
the middle of the night, you go up to your room, and you can't get in. Yo
They check by Poking on the computer, where there's a note to call security
bar you and stick you with the hotel bill even though they promised to com
I hate to get people comps anymore, because things just always seem
rule that you're allowed to get room comps for people that aren't on the tea
too conservatively, because they're afraid of getting kicked out of their r
casino's part, because we just get more determined to beat the place.

So you believe barrings have become more civil in the last five y

In general.

What about in these little places that have sprung up all over the c

Casinos are afraid of litigation. It does seem like most places now go o
And we're nice about it too. I'm always nice about it. I'll always go back ev
in their face. I won't go back the next week or anything like that. I'll stay ou
a J reasonable period of time—six months or a year. I don't think it's i ethi
is going to intimidate me into not going back. Well, the islands have defin
in the U.S. is going to intimidate me into not playing blackjack. If they hav
chance I of fooling them, I'm going to play.

If your son came to you and said, "I want to be a professional

him?

That's actually a realistic possibility. He just turned twenty. I don't thin

but I think he does have a) interest in playing. He's a very good golfer. I th
golf.
I think blackjack is a great profession. I get a lot of enjoyment of it, not
living, but I think it's the perfect way to make money. It seems to me th
greedy corporations; the more influence they get in a particular area, the w
everyone's better off with the money out of their hands. I think we're on
mean, I would never want to be the house. If somebody told me I could ma
a casino, I wouldn't even consider it. It wouldn't take five minutes to turn it

Ten million a year?

Or even more. I wouldn't be interested. I don't like casinos. I don't li

don't think the employment they provide is a worthwhile thing for those
could be contributing to society and making them do a job that has no r
view.

Your son has the benefit of having you to teach him. But if some o
the hinterlands saying, "I want to become a professional gambler," wh

I actually get that a lot. The thing I really get a lot is strangers asking to
them. I'm not interested in that. Unfortunately, there's a lot of really bad st
steer them to the right books. Emphasize that you nave to have a bankrol
tough grind. It's not a sure thing. I'm more optimistic than most people a
possible for somebody starting 't at blackjack to make quite a bit of mo
playing poker or trying to beat sports betting. The good thing about bl
There's not much activity to it. If you follow the books and you're a reaso
isn't any reason you can't make money.
To me the contrast between blackjack and poker is clear. In poker you h
as many hours as you want. You're not going to get barred. But, to make
you have to be quite good. You beat a lot of real sharpies, guys who have
thirty dollars an hour at blackjack is easy. You can do that after one mo
make mistakes. As long as you learn properly and you have the bankr
blackjack.

How do you think the game has changed? Do you think it's gotten

The individual games have definitely gotten worse, although the are
around. I think that right now it's a great time for blackjack players. Ther
matter how well known you are as a player, you can always find somew
blackjack is good.

Hyland Notes

1—Card Counting
Once a blackjack player has mastered basic strategy, the next step is to
house advantage swings back and forth between the player and the dealer
more big cards (tens and aces) remain in the deck, the advantage is with
cards in the deck, the edge grows larger for the house. A card counter keep
cards by assigning them values and "counting" them as they're played.
Many different counts have been devised, but one of the most popul
count, the player counts a value of +1 for every 2, 3,4, 5, or 6 that he sees,
and aces, and 0 for each 7, 8, and 9. If a player sees a ten-value card and a 6
+1 for the 6, giving him a count total of 0. The two cards "cancel" each o
assigns counts of -1, +1, +1, +1, and 0 for a "running count" of +2.
The player continues to count all cards dealt, which yields what coun
left to be played. Many refinements and adjustments are necessary, but in a
the plus side, the bigger the player's advantage. The more minus the count
Card counters try to bet as much as possible when the count is ply as li
minus.

2--Stanford Wong
A legendary name in the blackjack community, Stanford Wong is the
including his classic Professional Blackjack; he's also written books on v
play, and sports betting; produced software for blackjack and video poker;
popular blackjack Web sites (www.bj21.com).

3—Team Play
Blackjack players often band together in teams. This is done f many r
mathematics of "joint-bankrolls." By combining money into a common "b
for larger stakes and win much faster.
Consider two card counters, each with $10,000. Individually they can e
hour. But if they combine their money into a $20,000 bank, they can both b
earn $100 per hour. Add a third player with $10,000 and all three can now
hour for each player. You can see why team play is very beneficial.
Teams the size of Tommy Hyland's are no different from multimillio
attorneys, accountants, and lobbyists. Some of the biggest teams through th
been the Czechs, the Greeks, and the MIT team, which was originally
Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

4—Blackjack Computers
The first hidden blackjack computers were developed by Keith Taft in
which was cumbersome, was named George. After refining the machine, K
he named David. These computers played perfect blackjack and were h
computer was strapped to one leg and a power supply was strapped to the
down pant legs between them-More wires fed into the player's boots, wher
toes. The player input every card seen and the computer signaled back ho
how much money to bet. Use of these devices was outlawed in Nevada in19

5--Griffin Book
Griffin Investigations is a detective agency originally formed to protec
Book contains pictures of suspected perpetrators, as well as their height, we
card counting became popular, Griffin Investigations began listing card cou
counting is not cheating. Griffin sends out regular activity reports based
counter is spotted Las Vegas, for example, the agency may fax a picture t
them know that the player is active and in the area.
 6—The Big Player
Counters get their advantage by betting large when a deck is rich in
according to the count can give the player away. A team-play technique de
named Al Francesco aids in making these bets without detection. Mem
blackjack tables in a casino, betting low amounts. When the count climbs,
who appears at the table betting the maximum allowed. The casino reason
been counting cards, since he wasn't even at the table from the beginning of

7—Uston's Victory
Reacting to the problems with card counting when Resorts Internation
sought the right to bar counters. Famous card counter Ken Uston sued the
be allowed to bar players simply because they their brains. Since card cou
alter the random outcome of the game, the New Jersey Supreme Court rule
casinos in Atlantic are not allowed to bar players for counting cards. They a
often as they like and restrict the amount that a card counter can bet.

8—Comps
"Comps" or "complimentaries" are gifts given to players to entice t
include free meals, drinks, and hotel rooms. Larger players receive show ti
Taking advantage of casino freebies has been turned into an art form by som
this subject is Comp City, by Max Rubin.

MIKE SVOBODNY

If you sit back and try to imagine what it must be like to be a high-s
likely to conjure the real life of Mike Svobodny. From his private caban
flying off to Saudi Arabia in King Fahd's personal jet, Mike is a man who e
beat profession takes him. He doesn't own a home or a car. He doesn't n
finest hotels and travels by limo—and private jets.
Mike Svobodny's job is playing backgammon. He's the only play
Championship and the World Cup. But even the best players can't earn th
on the backgammon-tournament circuit. They have to play on the side—for
People who don't know Mike might call him a hustler, but they'd be wr
tries to appear weak, then takes advantage by getting a handicap or induci
wouldn't. Mike's approach is exactly the opposite. He'll tell you straight ou
good for you." It's a strategy that draws players like cats to cream. Some
best, others because his confidence bruises their egos. Top players argue al
on one point they all agree: No one makes more money playing backgamm
Mike doesn't limit his gambling to backgammon. He's made bets on
biggest gamblers in the world, and on some of the most outrageous propos
wildest proposition bets ever made, Mike lost $100,000 to a man who got
famous in a book titled The Man With the $100,000 Breasts and Other Gam
To finalize plans for our interview, Mike called to say he was in Los
Flynt's new Hustler Casino. Did I want to attend the opening night party w
for the world.

Was backgammon the first gambling you did?

Pretty much. I played a little bit of poker with friends when I w

backgammon with my roommate in graduate school. He used to beat me
rent. Somebody suggested I read some books. I didn't even know there w
the books and it was an epiphany for me. I realized it wasn't just luck. T
sensed it and quit playing me. I tease him now about having a winning reco

What were you studying in graduate school?

Psychology.

I've heard that when you were traveling around playing, even t
stakes, you had pigeons tucked away in all these different places.

It's not like I owned the pigeons. More than other professional ga
providing a service. People I play against are my clients or customers, an
way. They're going to lose money to me and they're not going to be happ
entertained. If someone plays stupidly and still beats me, I never moa
professionals complaining, "This idiot beat me." Well, the idiot will win
means I'm more likely to win. It doesn't mean I deserve to win.

pigeon -a "fish."- A bad player or a bad gambler; an easy mark. Also kno

I'm always astounded when better players lose, then abuse the he
for a change and beat them.

If they get lucky they're going to enjoy it when they beat me. If they
long run, what else are they playing for? They want to be happy and say, "
Magriel1 today."
1
For this and subsequent numeric references 2-5, see "Svobodny Notes" at the end of this chapter.

At what point did you decide that this was your profession?

It was gradual. I first started coming to L.A. in the early '80s. I

Sacramento, but I was on call so I didn't have to work if I didn't want to.
was making more money playing backgammon in one day than I made in
money-oriented then. I was a lot more idealistic at that time.
One bad thing about gambling is you sometimes lose perspective on
There's a story in the book The Biggest Game In Town, by A. Alvarez, a
nice portraits of poker players for $80. Everyone got upset because all the
wanted to wait around for him to get change. So he raised the price to a
happy. There's a strange mindset there. Say I go to a restaurant and the bill
to wait for change from a hundred-dollar bill, I'll leave it there. Because m
[when you gamble], you get a very jaded perspective.

The money has no value?

It's not that it has no value. It just has much less value than if you were
you lost $80,000 that day, what difference does it make if you leave a forty
 Also, you don't produce anything when you gamble. A garbage man pr
do. I'm skimming off the fat of society.

Couldn't the same thing be said about casinos?

Yes, exactly. Even more so, because they're much more effective. They
to beat rich people.

At what point did you quit the job?

I just started working less and less. It was very gradual. They said, "Yo

At some point there must have been a change from grinding out n

My stakes have risen slowly since the beginning. When I first started c
play for more than ten bucks a point.2 It wasn't that I was afraid, I just didn
use the Kelly system. I don't go by that [precisely]. I just go by my gut feel
it down. If I go through a losing streak, I cut down the amount I'll play f
That's the opposite of what most people do. If they're losing, they want to g

Kelly—The Kelly Criterion, a mathematical formula that quantifies wha

order to achieve the maximum gain with the minimum chance of going brok

You're saying even the professionals do that?

I see that with professionals, too. A lot of professionals, even succe

money management. Somebody said something a long time ago, and I didn
I do now: "The difference between a sick compulsive gambler who loses a
that the professional wants to have the best of it." They both want to gamb
has the worst of it.

Many successful gamblers say that the most important thin

management.
 There are two different kinds of gamblers. Poker players have what th
calculating about getting their advantage.

They grind.

Yeah. I'm a nit, too. I really am a dyed-in-the-wool nit, but I'm a very
never see a really nitty guy spending $1,000 on a dinner. It's just not in hi
dollars and I calculate that it takes X hours to earn blah, blah, blah." A n
give you an example from sports betting.

loss leader— Playing a game or proposition in which you are not the f
game later.

A friend of mine, Joe, is a bookie. One day the office called and said a
him. This guy was always trying to get a little edge. Just after the tip-off, h
then he'd try to get down. It's hard to know exactly [a game's] starting tim
right at the gate; if there's a big flood of people [waiting to bet] you want to
Joe called the guy and said, "Are you past posting us or are you just
next time the guy bet, Joe said, "You have no juice for today, because you'r
time the guy called up and tried to bet, it was night at post time and Joe wo
can't I bet?" And Joe said, "Because the game hasn't gone on long enough
called back about a minute later and said, "I want to bet this game." Joe
quarter and bet." He limited him to a dime. The guy made four different
even though he didn't bet until the second quarter. This guy had broken ev
bettor. Joe did that more as a joke than anything else, but since then the gu
trapped him in, but a nitty guy would never have done that.

past post—To bet after a game has started or finished.

It's like an advertising budget.

It is. Another guy told me he lost nineteen bets in a row. I believe h

bullshitting when they say this kind of thing. So I said, "If you lose your n
$1 million. And if you win nineteen in a row, I'll also give you $1 millio
says, "You're in trouble. I went zero for three last night." He was dreaming
The odds of losing nineteen in a row are about a half-million to one. So
two dollars. But I'm also giving him two bucks if he wins, so I'm giving aw
wasn't giving this guy anything, but he thought he had a shot to get me. A l
of things and I think you need to do them. If you're seen as a sport and an
you action.

sport—Someone willing to take the worst of a proposition.

You don't seem nitty at all. In fact, you seem the opposite.

I'm not now. I've changed. Now I'm very sporty. Especially when I firs
I'm very happy when he collects the first bet from me. You can always
make. Later on you can tighten up. It's intuitive to me now.
I play paddle tennis with this guy. I have a great deal. He owed money
in England owes me a lot more money than this guy owes him. We play pa
game and I can't win. I'm probably a 2-1 dog every time. Anytime I want
make five hundred by playing me, but I'm taking it off what the guy in Eng
"You're his pigeon." I say, "He's our pigeon. We just don't want to let him
allows you to last in game situations.

dog—Short for "underdog." Opposite of the "favorite.

Knowing where you're at [in these types of situations] is a very impor

you should raise the stakes, because you got unlucky. Getting unlucky is
because you build equity for the future.
I lost over a half-million dollars to some Russian gamblers. I was playi
stupid a mistake as can be made. They loved me. The mistake I made wa
beach in Monte Carlo. I wasn't mortified; I was very happy. It was very
better player, but their image of me as a dodo from last summer is still the
from one of the same guys. I've improved so much that the money will all
there's a bull's eye on my back. They all want to play me. They know I los
I was pleasant about it and I laughed and joked about it.

Where is this?

A beach club in Monte Carlo.

Have you gone to Russia?

Yeah. I played in a backgammon tournament there. It was like the wild

machine guns in nightclubs. It was like skiing down a scary hill. It was exc
was some danger, but it wasn't enough that I was scared. It made me alert.

Do they still hold this tournament in Russia?

Yes.

Would you go back?

I would. I meant to several times, but I was busy with something else.

It seems from the people I'm interviewing that there are two types
other players, as in poker or backgammon. The other is playing aga
racetrack.

Those [the latter] are the nittier types.

But those advertising ideas wouldn't really apply [against casinos

That's exactly right.

It's also a fact that poker players are not as polite and nice to people
backgammon player, if I go to somebody to play, and I'm both a prick an
need me. In poker they have to let you play. You can't kick that guy out
casino where it's high stakes. Most backgammon is done privately. If you'r
be in action unless you're a loser.

Cathy Hulbert was both a blackjack player and poker player,

players were incredibly honest. But she finds poker players to be
Hulbert is interviewed in Chapter 6].

I think that's true. I guess that if you took all games players, the mos
followed maybe by backgammon, but poker is way down the line. I don't kn

She mentioned that poker players seem to take pride in scamming

It might have to do with the game itself, because poker is a closed g

game. [In backgammon the facts are all out in the open for everyone to see
deceiving your opponent is part of the game.] Backgammon players, cer
extremely honest. You never have to worry about anything. The thing abou
ones: You have to worry about them cheating you, but you never have
Backgammon players in New York would never dream of cheating, but the
I'll have to owe you." It might take awhile to get it.
One very well-known poker player is a total thief, but a colorful char
you, cheat you. But if you beat him out of $50,000, you're getting that mon
it, you don't have to call him, it's coming to you immediately. So there are d
I haven't run into that many cheats until recently. It's tricky deciding ho

You're talking about backgammon?

No, poker. I've hardly ever run into cheats at backgammon.

You never played against Gaby [a notorious backgammon cheat i

I played against Gaby. I think he had a loss leader with me. He played
beat him for a hundred twenty-three points. He was calling me the next day
interested in playing you." He said, "You're going to beat me for a hundre
me a chance to get my money back?" I said, "Yeah, unless you Want to
knew he was a cheater, and he knew I knew he was a cheater. I think he ju
high stakes, and figured he'd get me later. I think a cheater looks at it that
figuring they can always turn on the juice later and get the guy.
If I'm being cheated at poker or cards, I'm not really going to know
enough; I don't really have the experience to know. If someone is cheating

Do you think much cheating goes on in the poker rooms?

No. Maybe twenty years ago that was the case, but I don't think so a
honesty of the casinos. The last thing a casino needs is rumors of cheating
sky that's trained to watch for that type of thing. They filter out the cheate
though, there's a much greater chance of being cheated.
One group I find interesting is the halfway con artists. I'm fascinated
shameless they are. They meet whomever casually, and suddenly they're
study it almost from a sociologist's point of view. I have a background in
interesting to watch and listen to them, and discover their motivations.
I'll give you an example. I met this one con artist in Monte Carlo. This
to sell some energy system based on perpetual motion. They had this comp
spin using magnets—it was a very complex plot. I'm not even sure tha
German mad-scientist, was bogus. They were courting Prince Albert, and
after awhile. It was quite amusing.
One day this guy gives me a sad story that he needs to make rent. I ga
their victim. All the time it was, "Mike, can you give us this?" I gave him m
here and there. In my mind I wasn't really lending. I was just giving it to th
good credit risks. But on the other hand, every night they were trying to sc
didn't go after anyone that wasn't worth a hundred million plus. They were
I didn't get the money back.
Now I go to an opening of a movie in Hollywood and I see this guy.
that I'm not mad about it. I would care if it were a respectable guy I gav
stiffed me. But this didn't bother me, because I knew the guy was a crook
over and starts screaming, "Mike, you're my baby! You're my homey!" He
see me. I realize what this is about. He doesn't want me to be mad at him
these people. He tells me, "You saved my life in Monaco. You don't know
guy screwed us."

stiffed— Not getting paid. When someone doesn't pay a bet, the winner

He came to meet me at my hotel and I was surprised because he picke

big Rolodex. I thought, maybe I'll get a couple of customers from this. He k
lost ground with me. Such guys can be very useful to me, but I keep them
they're hustling me for a few dollars, which they get, but I use them too.
Another guy called me the other day. "Mike, my brother. Can you lend
lent me money so many times in the past. If you say no, I understand and
won't do it. I'm giving you four hundred." He laughs, "Ah, you're so nice.
little.
But this guy introduced me to someone that I put into a busines
commission on. I'm making two hundred dollars a day. I have no risk at
Because I was nice to the first guy, he wanted to do me a favor. And even
bad to give some poor schlub a little money. Altruism can pay.

The year you won the Backgammon World Championship in Mo

beginning of the jet setting?

I guess so. I traveled a lot after that.

I was hearing stories of you spending summers on yachts.

All those stories get overblown. I have been on yachts. People I want t
have a yacht. I might have told someone that I went on someone's yacht and
lunch. Next thing I hear, I beat the guy for $100,000 and I never even playe

But after you won Monte Carlo things changed for you. Did yo
you? Or did you sit down and plan how you would attract the high-ro

No, I didn't think of it like that. To attract the high-rolling players you
them, and I couldn't. I moved up gradually. I didn't win Monte Carlo and
play for a hundred or two hundred dollars a point. Before that I played for
played higher and learned how to handle pigeons better.

What's the highest you've played for in backgammon?

I played someone for $20,000 a point once. But it wasn't like real mone

What do you mean?

I got stiffed that money. For real, I guess $7,000 or $8,000 a point.

Do you know what your biggest win was?

I've won more money at things other than backgammon. At backgamm

That's a pretty good night's work. That's a good score for backga

I'd like to have a million-dollar day. I used to say I'd like to have a $
winning and losing, many times since then. Now I say I want a million-d
wealthy enough to have million-dollar winning days.

In backgammon, is there a big difference between tournament pla

There's a lot of skill in both. There's more skill in tournaments I think, b

shift gears. Both are difficult.

Are there some people who are good tournament players and not
versa?

Yes. The good tournament players who are bad money players have
They're either steamers or they don't have the heart to bet the money.
 steaming — Playing badly or betting wildly when losing.

Are the Americans still the dominant players in backgammon?

Not anymore. The Germans are.

Why is that?

The Germans have a stronger work ethic.

Is it possible to make a living playing tournaments?

It depends on what you mean by a living. I couldn't make a living,

$30,000 a year.

Was there any one tournament you won that sticks out above the o

The two biggest tournaments I've won were the World Championship i
I'm lucky enough to be the only person who has ever won both. I was mo
was of Monte Carlo, because it was almost all pros. That was a very tough
of five matches against each opponent. It came down to double match point

Do you think it's because of the computer programs out there?

That's it. That's why there are a lot of very strong players now. They mi

Do the players who learn from the software learn the gambling b

When they learn that way it is a scientific observational method. You

is all luck. People who have that attitude tend to gamble. But if some
analytical and scientific. If they know a position is a pass by three perce
they know it's a take by two percent, they always take it. I would say tho
about their gambling, which is a good thing to be.
 Backgammon is very popular in the Arab world, and there's a lot

The problem with the Arabs is collecting the money. It's a cultural thin
"The game is as good as the pay." In other words, if it's a very easy game,
and play a tough backgammon match with a tough opponent, I always ge
blind idiot—which I did once, I played a guy who was basically deaf, d
When you evaluate somebody, you look at two things: How likely you are
get paid.

Stan Tomchin mentioned that people have some number in mind

and you don't want to beat them for more than that [Stan Tomchin is

That's exactly right. I believe that it's a professional's responsibility

either. It's totally self-serving to not go beyond that number. I beat you fo
me. I don't have any doubts about it. I beat you for $40 million and what's
$40 million. So what are you going to do? Are you going to give me all yo
You might not make $40 million in the rest of your life. A lot of people c
the responsibility to stop.
Once a sixteen-year-old kid lost over $100,000 to a couple guys. The r
was because the kid's father was very rich. The dad said, "I'm not paying
professionals wanted me to arbitrate it, because they thought I'd say he h
have made the kid pay, but it would have been a twenty-year process; I'd h
year, because that's what his income would justify.

What ended up happening?

They decided not to have me arbitrate. I think the kid and the father
pay. But it was the professionals' fault. I thought it was grossly irrespon
agreed to play the dad a hundred-point match double or nothing [the match
this interview].

You've got a pretty big reputation as a gambler who's been in

adventures.

You know, I'm sure a lot of stories have been told about me that a
stranger than fiction. Mainly there've been kind of funny things that have ha
Right after I won Monte Carlo, I was invited to Sweden for a tourname
and comped every, thing. I started playing a prop 4 with some guy. It w
almost always lose one point, but once in awhile I'd redouble and win gam
in "Svobodny Notes"]. I lose one, one, one, one, and then pow, I win nine.
of the tournament directors said, "You like giving money away. I should
don't have to get in my suitcase. You can bet me right now [on the game in
well, so I said I'd play for cash. He started handing over cash and he lo
thinking, where does this young kid get $10,000 in cash? He ran out of
playing stiffed me, but I didn't care, because I was getting cash from this gu

get in your suitcase—A phrase that means a player loses so much, you
he goes (in order to play him all the time).

Then a guy I knew came up to me and said, "Do you want to speak to
he said, "About the money you just won from him." I said, "I'll talk to him
back." Well, the money wasn't his. It belonged to the tournament. It was m
the hall we were in and the tournament dinner. So he'd stolen the funds from
he was going to lose. It looked like he was going to crush me.
As soon as he sees me he jumps out on the window ledge. I wasn't sure
if this was just histrionics, but I said, "Here, take the money. Take the m
didn't want him to slip or something. But this made him even more emb
leaning out farther saying, "No, no, don't say that." I started talking W h
Nothing is this bad." Then I said' "I'm not giving you the money. I'll lend i
He took it. I never saw him again, but every year at Monte Carlo someo
from him until he paid it all off.

Your psychological training came in handy at the key moment.

To me gambling in general is fun. Gamblers are very competitive by n

you're super-competitive.

Do you think ego sometimes gets in the way?

Yes, often. The word "hubris" means being so proud you'd kill yoursel
over itself and the inside of it dies. I've seen hubris kill a lot of professio
and more talented than I am, and great all-around games players. A gu
doesn't want to beat anybody but me at backgammon. At poker he wants t
wants to be the fastest gunslinger in the West, and that broke him. I just wa

Is part of the allure of backgammon tournaments the fact that the

not otherwise see.

I like the variety of people playing backgammon. You have to admit,

Magriel. Or the Big Z—he was a famous fish that lost $10 or $15 million
crook and everyone knew he was a crook. But everybody played him, beca
he played, but he would lose anyway.

How is that possible?

I don't think he cheated to win, really. I think he cheated so he Woul

action.

In what way would he cheat?

He would mark cards, sometimes put in phony dice. But I would never
said, "Anybody catches him doesn't play with us anymore." We didn't wan
then it's really awkward, and he might get embarrassed and quit. When he d
a new deck.
One time we were playing klabiash; $30,000 for a match that takes fiv
can call for a new deck whenever they want. It's the last hand and I see t
they come out. Big Z says, "I have a fifty." The other guy says, "How high
just barely lost that match by a point or two. He was so disgusted that eve
cards marked up, he changed the deck. He was a very big character. He
players. He had million-dollar losing months.

pumped up — When a player wins (or gets) a lot of money.

When did you start adding poker to your repertoire?

I'll always play any game. I like playing backgammon, but I bet horses,

At one time, you were investing in Alan Woods' horse-raci

interviewed in Chapter 7].

Right. The first time I ever spoke to Alan, he called me up at four in th

here. Do you want to bet a million dollars on this World Cup soccer game?
be able to pay you too." He says, "You have a thirteen percent advantage
does the game go off?" He said, "Ten minutes."
I tried to negotiate with one of the English bookies for the World C
£200,000 on every single game until the finals. We're always going to bet
available in the newspaper." They turned us down. HoW can you turn that
to be locked into anything.

So you look for any opportunity where you know you have an e d

Yeah. But again, here's what has won me a lot of money: I'll do someth
you an example. I played guy gin, and I'm a very bad gin player. If I rate m
nine. If I rate my gin, I rate myself a one ... or a half.

It would be hard to believe that you're that bad.

So I play this guy who's good at gin. He's probably a 6-5 favorite ever
doesn't take too long before you're totally grounded. I played him $1,000
faded 6-5, got ahead five grand, and quit. He said, "Play some more."
knows I'm the pigeon, so he can't really say anything about me quitting.
 fade — To cover a bet.
grounded— Busted, broke.

There's only one way for him to get this money back now, so we playe
lost $60,000. Now, he wasn't unlucky in the prop. That was my earn, $6
away a few hundred in juice playing gin, and I picked up $60,000 in
expected return that day was over $59,000.

earn — The expected win.

Have you played blackjack?

Very little. I'm not a blackjack player. I find it boring. If I had a choice
or $90,000 at poker or backgammon, I'd choose those games. I like them.

I remember you showing people propositions and offering to tak

might have the wrong side if they chose wisely.

People often say, "It's just like Mike. He won from the wrong side " A l
side when I really didn't This is against pros. But you can beat guys from
very good. You can get their nose open. You get them into action. You don
you're a professional gambler, you really can't be seen as someone who is p
have to give close gambles and even gambles where you have the worst o
stay there forever.
So I play a guy and he chooses the right side and beats me for seven
Okay, I give up. I play him the next day. He chooses the right side and I
lose seven points, and the next day I lose ten points. But the next day I win
This is a very interesting part of human psychology. People want to bo
pigeon mentality. What you should really want to do is win. It doesn't hav
tomorrow. A pigeon wants to win that day. How many times have you he
[quit gambling and] do something else," and heard another guy respond,
reason to stay. If you're stuck, you should want to leave. If you're a winn
say to me, "Let's go to a movie," you're apt to hear, "I can't, I'm crushing
more inclined to leave. People say all the time, "I want to get my money ba
that the instant they lost that money, it wasn't theirs anymore. They gamble

When you started playing poker, did you take an organized

backgammon? Did you buy all the books?

I've read some books, but there's a lot of transference of knowledge th

give you an example about poker. I'm not a good poker player, but if the g
the game is bad, I'm happy to quit. In some areas I'm very good, but my sta
tougher than other people's, because I know that I'm not as good as many
But in other areas I'm very inexperienced, like card reading. Chip [Reese]
have the two pair he's representing. I won't. Chip will check-raise the guy
guy. I play poker just because I like to be playing.

You like the action?

Yeah, I do.

Do you play backgammon with Chip?

Yeah.

Is he a good player?

Yeah. He doesn't play all the time. The only learning he's done comes f

A lot of people have heard the story of the man [gambler Brian
bet by getting breast implants. Since you're the man who lost the
version of the story [Mike was "Jobo" in the book].

It was a lark. Brian is very cheap and extremely funny. Ten or fifteen y
wouldn't do this or twenty bucks he wouldn't do that. One night in New Yo
and we're walking down the street. He was saying that it's good for me to
down effect—he gets upgraded from the floor to the couch or to a spare b
the crazy bets we could do now." He says, "How much would you pay me
"Five thousand, but if you puke you don't get any money." He was really ti
time you want to eat a turd, you get $5,000. But if you puke v get nothing.
trying." This real] happened. He said, "That's great. If I ever go broke I k
threw up. Just the thought of it made him vomit.

You're kidding.

I'm serious. He has a very weak stomach. Then he said, "What w

implants?" So I picked a number that I didn't think he'd do it for. I said, "I'l
to be bigger than Martha's, my girlfriend at the time, and you have to k
laughing. He thought that was really funny.
He didn't do it for a long time. But then he lost money in the stock ma
was doing something crooked in the market, which wasn't true. I touted hi
went way up, and I told him to sell it. But instead he bought more. Eve
suckers at. He ended up losing money.
For Brian, the choice between his mother dying or losing $50,000
$50,000 or your mom, hmmm. At $100,000 there would be no question. G
this money, and when he loses money he goes into this depressive state wh
talk. Money is the dearest thing in his life.
So a friend tells me, "You'd better call off that thing with Brian. I thin
going to do it." If you offered Brian $1 million to bungee jump, he wouldn
driver drives too fast, Brian gets really scared. So I figured there was no w
table. My friend said, "Remember, he had all those plastic surgeries for
He'd ridden a motorcycle into a wall and his face was disfigured; he had pla
So I went to Brian and told him I was going to call it off. He said, "You
you mean I can't call it off? You're not betting me anything. I was offerin
mean when you're ninety-three years old, you can come to me and say, 'Lo
have them put on after you're dead, so I'll have to pay your estate?" He said
So we decided to have it arbitrated by three backgammon players. W
have the arbitration. Beforehand, I was talking to one of the arbiters. I said,
How can I lose this?" He said, "Well it's not clear-cut to me at this point."
cut? If you offer a guy a free roll, it's fill or kill. It doesn't sit up there fore
that you said you wouldn't call it off." I asked Brian if I'd said that and he
you can do it if you want to. I don't need any arbitration." I like to stick t
would do it.

fill or kill — A stock-trading term that means to execute a transaction i

same concept is applied to the wager.

The market went down more and more and more. He was in agony. O
in New York and he was wearing a sport coat. He opened it and showed m
was weird. You're tied up in your own male sexuality, and it seemed so biz
was like seeing a road accident or something. It also made me sick that
$60,000 and he could take them out. He said no. Then maybe I offered h
"Okay, you're stuck with them. You have to wear them the whole year." He

My understanding is the year was up eighteen months ago and he

Yeah, and Brian is very heterosexual. He gets girls all the time.

I heard that he never got laid so much as he has since having the

I'm sure that's true. The first month he comes over to my hotel room
sleeping and he throws a girl on the bed, takes her clothes off, then he tak
there bouncing together. Brian is not shy. He just got married.

He got married with breasts? What's his excuse for keeping them n

I don't think that's it, because no one realizes he has them. My mother
on vacation, and they didn't know until I finally told them. He hides them.
Last week was my birthday and they threw me a surprise party in L
performing and Brian got up with her and started dancing. He took off h
talking about making a movie about it, so he might make a score.
 Let's get back to traveling the world.

I don't know if it's just me, but I think a lot of gamblers have short atten
Maybe that's why they gamble. That's why someone wants to bet a dime on
who's a professional gambler [but not in sports] bets only on football gam
badge or something that he's not a pigeon. He knows that if he bets $5,0
fifty dollars to make that bet. But as long as he's watching it's okay, becaus
My point is, a lot of gamblers need stimulation. I think that's true of mysel
so I like new places. I haven't lived in a regular home in eight or nine years

So you don't accumulate lots of stuff.

I like winning money. I like having money. I like spending money. B

materialistic. I have a car in Vegas that somebody else uses. I don't ha
particularly want one. Say someone gave me a brand new Rolls Royce
Insurance is free, gas paid for, but you can't sell it." I wouldn't take it. I'd h
be too much of a hassle.

I originally thought that professional gambling and stable home l

I've interviewed Doyle (Doyle Brunson is interviewed in Chapter
years. Billy Walters (Chapter 1) has been married twenty-four years
time. Have you thought of getting married and having kids?

I'm having a child in three months.

Was this planned?

No. I recently had a very extensive blood test. One of the tests measur
and my count was very high. The doctor said, "You don't have much stre
much at all. But now that I'm having a kid, I find that I worry about whet
happen to my future? I don't remember worrying before. Maybe when I'm a
I think, in general, it's true that the gambling life is not conducive
married and I'm forty-eight years old. On the other hand, I'm not sure that
any different. But I do think there's a correlation. I know so many single ga
tend to marry late. I've been all over the world and I don't have a home. Wh
Women want stability and security to some degree. Being a gambler isn't se
those things.

Will your lifestyle change when you have this child?

It will. That's part of my worry. I want to be a very good father, but I d

husband.

Where do you spend the majority of your time?

It changes. Last year it was Monaco. Sometimes it's New York someti
are the main three.

Are there poker games in Monaco, or is it mainly backgammon?

Mainly backgammon.

How do you think computers have changed things?

Computers have been terrible for me, because a lot of the money I've w
With computers now, players just plug in the position and get the answ
anymore.
Computers have also raised the bar. I was just talking to Magriel about
who's considered a very bad player now, while ten years ago he would h
player. Ten years ago he might have been thought to be as good as us, and n

What happened?

Players have gotten better and better.

 And he didn't.

No. Paul Magriel has gotten better, a lot better. I think I've gotten bet
that good.

Compared to everybody else, you were certainly good.

Yes, but now there are a lot of players that are better than I was ten ye
You have to get better to stay the same.

Backgammon is a game where you have to play all the time to be

That's absolutely true.

Do you have a laptop that you use these computer programs on?

No. I'm very lazy. Almost all of my learning comes from either playi
learning tool, or from Magriel. I might hire him to comb through my game
out thematic mistakes. He showed me a thematic mistake the other day t
again, and I realized he was right.
There's one thing about my own ability that I like. If I'm shown the righ
good at playing props. I can see when I'm wrong while I'm playing. It's fun
want to know what's right, as opposed to being right. A lot of good players

I think this ability to suppress ego is a tremendous advantage.

It's a very funny combination. I certainly do have a big ego. It just migh
the top ten backgammon players in the world who the number one player i
else, but really, deep in their hearts, they feel it's themselves.

There's a difference between being a great player and a great gam

I think I'm both. Without any false modesty, I think I'm a great Player,
better gambler than a player.

I would agree, and your reputation is that nobody makes n, mo

same player, you will get mo money than somebody else will.

I think that's true. That comes from gambling ability. If you're a hunter
trying to hunt people you can't complain if you find a spear in your own
helps me to keep a good attitude. If I have a losing streak, I don't feel sorr
tim.

Are you superstitious?

I'm not superstitious at all. On a scale of one to ten, I would rate myse
psychokinesis, but I have a friend Dave who does. Back in 1983, Dave intr
and we went out. He called me and asked, "Did you have sex with her? J
"How many times, once or twice?" I said twice, and he said, "Get in the ca
you backgammon and give you a spot. But you have to come right away."
this girl, whom I didn't know very well. I said, "David called me, and I
now." So I went over and we started playing. He was giving me a 5,3 spot,

spot — A handicap. In this instance, Dave is giving Mike a 5,3 as his o

Now, he's giving you this spot because he believes ...

I'm weakened.

You're weakened because you had sex?

Yes. So he's destroying me. Neither one of us had very much money at
bucks a point, which was plenty. The first twenty games I won maybe thr
standard deviations of bad luck. Once a month, Dave figures to do that to m
We're both laughing our heads off. I'm laughing because I know he thin
sex, and he's laughing because he knows I don't believe any of it. We're bo
was so much pleasure. So then, after about an hour and a half, I crushed h
just had too much weight on my side; I couldn't lose for too long with that s
anything. I beat you." He said, "I did prove something. It just wore off. I k
We have to play while you're having sex."

weight—Advantage.

I was living in L.A. at the time, and there was a girl who was staying w
you get her for this experiment?" It's kind of an indelicate question to ask
hell. And she said okay. I couldn't believe she went for it.
So I tried to make the setting as nice as possible. We put the table in
bathrobe and she got under the table while I played. I couldn't think about
be really good at what she was doing. I remember one time—she must have
moved the checkers backwards. I tried to go the wrong way. Dave just cr
mistake; it just doesn't happen. He was beating me and beating me and I kn
in the time I had left. I said, screw this! I quit playing and took the girl t
backgammon board into the bedroom and put it on the bed. He said, I'll g
just pushed the board away. We've done that experiment many times since
Backgammon has taken me to a lot of interesting places, and introduce
About two years ago, I was playing a Saudi Prince in Monaco. He could
game. He was a very funny guy. He would spend $10,000 a day on hookers
"he time. He might screw them, he might not. He might play backgamm
Every one of them looked like Miss America. He had these professional a
professional friends—at $5,000 a week. He'd pull out a cigar and ten of th
was sickening, because it was so disingenuous.
I like to be the one giving—taking people to dinner and the like—I en
with him, on his boat to parties. But I could never pick up a check. I tried t
"I'm a Prince, that's my job. Don't ever do that again." He'd lose face.
He invited me to Saudi Arabia, and he knew I was a professional gamb
we played cheap, a hundred dollars a point. He'd want to play for an hou
points. It was entertainment for him. I would aspire to be a rich sucker. Eve

How long did you stay in Saudi Arabia?

 About six weeks, but I was around him for a long time. He got sort of d
If he wanted me at four in the morning, he'd call. "Let's play backgammo
didn't want to do it, I had to hide out. He had all these bodyguards and I c
tent on the beach in Monaco and his bodyguards would come up: "The Pri
Cannes and they went searching all over Cannes to try to find me. All the
"Don't come back until you find him." It was a royal order.
The Prince was very likable, but it gave me an insight into what that w
human being. He's almost like a deity. I learned not to sit down before he
everybody stood up. This was just proper etiquette.
So many funny things happened with the Prince. The first night
backgammon, but he said, "Play my cousin instead," because he was too la
wouldn't play him for money. I knew he was out of cash. His relationship
imagine. In nine months, he spent over $20 million dollars. He would peri
for a fresh batch of money to come from his family and spend that. To go o
That's not an exaggeration, because I saw him spend the money.
A lot of people were on the pad and got slow paid. The hotel would t
he'd pay them some of the bill. I lent him $40,000 because he needed it for
back and I don't really care. He actually owes me about $500,000 right now
had so many nice experiences with him. He bet the World Cup with pie a
doing that. I beat him for so much I started reversing the juice so he had
built in. He still lost.

Do you think that blew the friendship? The number got too big.

No. I don't think it's on his mind. I think he's a little embarrassed by i
him really small. I told him in the beginning, "I will always pay you and I
money, we don't need to bet." Truthfully, my idea wasn't to gamble with
way, that wasn't the best way to make money. Maybe five years from now
that I couldn't win a million dollars from the Prince and collect it. I could w
a million. It was just fun hanging around with him.
I bought him a laptop as a gift and hired a guy to teach him how to us
from Saudi Arabia and were playing backgammon with some guy. [Game
site.] He told the guy he was playing that he was a shoe salesman in Ohio
this guy would ever believe he's playing some Saudi Prince?
When we flew from Monaco to Saudi Arabia, he lent me one of th
burnoose. I have pictures of me lying in King Fahd's bed in this luxurious s

Is there much backgammon action in Asia?

No. Gambling in Japan still has a stigma attached. All the big Japan
Vegas to play. But if they gamble in public, they lose face. There was so
companies that would come to the backgammon club there and play for ten
would be some high-stakes action there, but there wasn't. It's considered gau
like Tokyo. I might go to Lebanon soon. I like going to places I haven't bee

There's a guy in Iowa reading this book right now. He's getting
himself, "I want to become a professional gambler." What advice wo

Don't do it.

Really? Why?

First off, it takes a particular mindset. There's a lot of pressure when y

you can't pay your rent. I'm not there now, but when I first started it was ve
do or die. Not everyone can handle that.
I think the chances of success are very small. You have a better chance
an Academy Award. The number of professional gamblers I know of w
twenty. And I know a lot of gamblers. A lot of professional gamblers are
hard time comprehending how fluctuations work. Things they think can't ha
I wish I had ten dollars for every time someone said, "You can't believ
that all the time from hardened pros. By definition, everything can't be extr

It's only extraordinary when it happens to you, not when you get

No one, when they really get lucky, realizes how lucky they were. I b
points, but he played bad and I played good. Now when you lose sixty p
that's unbelievable. But that's what should happen: You win a hundred
gamble every day, 100-1 shots come in three times a year. People think lo
luck. If you're using your bankroll to pay the rent and make car payment
because you've spent a lot of the money that you won.

Any books in particular stand out to you as exceptional? Books y

Maybe I'm just partial to Magriel, but I just love his book, Backgamm
book I read on backgammon. I haven't looked at it in awhile, but I don't thi
Brunson wrote a book of gambling stories that I thought was very go
gambling that are supposed to give you some wisdom. They're obvious st
interesting when I read it. It's called According to Doyle. It's quite good.

Are there still big backgammon games in Hollywood? Celebrity g

No. Backgammon has sort of died in the States, certainly in terms of hi

Most of the guys I play are pretty accomplished, where I'm not that big a fa

But you learn more playing good players.

I'd still rather play bad players. Though I don't mind playing good pla
anybody.

Have you gotten involved with sports betting?

No, it seems too hard to me. You have to have a very organized group
your own. It takes a lot of organization and a lot of computer expertise
expertise into getting the money. Plus, there are problems with the law. If y
say go to a casino and bet this on the Knicks tonight, you're committing
even the law that's the issue. It's whether you're successful or not. I really
$50 million at some completely legal gambling endeavor I'd be under tota
wrong.
 In Nevada, you'd be winning it from casinos, and the casinos are
going to find something wrong with it.

That's why they outlawed messenger betting. The guys would send pe
price. If it was in the casino's interest, they'd have kept it legal.
Say I was a bookmaker in the Caribbean and made $25 million
investigating me.

Whereas if you made $500,000 they probably wouldn't care.

That's right. They want to get their slice. You can become guilty of y
blackjack player, you get kicked out of every joint. You have to hide the f
diminishing return for getting better and better at something.

Others I've interviewed have said that having a lot of cash is a bi

Oh yeah. You can't get on planes with it. I know a guy who was carr
from New York to Vegas. The money was totally legal. This guy pays abou
He wouldn't fly a commercial plane, because he was worried he'd have too

He was worried they would see it?

Yeah, so he chartered a private plane. It's also a security problem-I he

blackjack games in California got shot in the head. This happened just rece

Have you been ripped off?

Not that I know of. I'm pretty careless; I know I've misplaced money
once. About a month after I left, he called me and said he found $20,000 be
there and forgotten about it.

This could only happen to a professional gambler.

 My Mom called me once, because she was getting something out of
bag with $10,000 I'd left there.

The breast bet was one thing. Do you make these crazy prop
raindrops running down a window-pane?

Huck Seed has made a lot of crazy bets. He's a very good athlete, bu
basketball, I would have zero chance of ever beating him. But he's not ve
says, "What will you bet me that I can't beat you in tennis this year?" We b
the year was up, he hadn't beaten me and he'd been doing badly gambling.
said, "Huck, I'm not going to call off the bet just because you're going bro
owe me the money." He said, "I can beat you anyway." I said, "How can yo
you've never come close to beating me?" He said, "I can play every day for
the time is up I'll be able to beat you." I said, "You couldn't play eight hou
—-$10,000. He had to play every single day for eight hours, which he did, bu

He spent eight hours a day playing tennis for a month?

We made a settlement on the one-month bet. Three days before the end

I guess that's a good month's work, $9,000.

Not for him. He's a very good poker player. I told him, "You'll make $
poker. Why would you take the cut in pay?" He said, "Call the [25k] bet of
wanted $4,000, and this went on through-out the month. Our bid and ask
middle of this he asked, "How much will you bet me that I can't stay in th
club] for 24 hours?" I said, "I'll bet you $5,000," because I knew that to w
lose the tennis bet. He thought about it and said, "I'll bet I can stay in the
hours." That would give him just enough time to get to the tennis court.

But he'd have to stay up all night and then play tennis for eight h
 That's right. I figured he'd be really tired. I said, "If you step outsid
agreed, and we made the bet. Well, he ran out of money and they were goi
friend to bring him more money. He stayed up all night, then went and p
then asked, "You want to bet again?" I almost did it to him, but I couldn't. I

Do you keep track of these bets to see if you're ahead in the long

I don't really care.

You must think you have an edge when you make a bet like that.

What edge did I have when I bet the $100,000 on the tits? That was a fr
One time we were playing backgammon and I bet a guy he couldn't
twenty seconds. Huck overheard me and said, "Are you kidding? I co
[Reese] and I bet him $5,000. It was four in the morning and we went to th
backwards in nine minutes, which is pretty good.

So where is the big action for backgammon?

The big action is at a place called the Beverly Club in New York. But w
action, like people losing hundreds of thousands, you knock them out pre
and play some guys there. I really like one of the guys there. He's a really
for most pigeons. They get insufferable, because everyone is always acqu
make. You can't quit, but they can quit. They play slow, but you have to p
but you have to pay them immediately. That's the pigeon's prerogative.
$20,000, and that was a big score. But now I don't want to go spend two we

If you can afford not to go to make $10,000 a week, life must be

Yeah. It's fun to make money. It's how you keep score as a gambler, rea
I ask someone how much money he makes, that's a very rude question. Bu
do last night," and he says he won $20,000 or lost $30,000, that's a normal
I think I would have done better financially as a stock trader. I Was s
other day who both will become centi-millionaires. These two are very sm
gamblers. They were both backgammon players when they were younger. I
don't want to get up at five in the morning and look at some computer scre
pool. I want to fly to Hong Kong.

A comment I hear a lot is: If these gamblers can do so well at th

the legitimate business world My response has been: If they can do
want to be in the legitimate business world?

That's right. When they made the movie Casino, I saw Robert DeNi
permission to sit with Doyle Brunson and Chip Reese to watch them play
rich people, would love to be that professional poker player.

There's a definite romance to being a professional gambler.

I don't see the romance. I just think it's interesting.

To people on the outside ... here you are in a suite at the Pen
jetting to Saudi Arabia, playing in your cabana on the beach in Mo
glamorous life.

To me the enjoyment is in meeting the different characters. All

aggressively. And investing is really gambling. It's no different from buyi
aggressive and high volatility or not. You can do things in gambling that are
of slot machines, you might never have a losing day. Is that gambling or inv

Have you heard the comment that professional gambling has beco

Yes, but I think that often the nerds don't know how to get the mo
marriage to be made with them. I consult mathematicians when I make be
What sort of edge do I have? I'm not smart enough to figure it out. I use the
Chip said something when someone said the nerds are going to end
"Yeah, but they aren't going to have as much fun." I think that's true.
 Svobodny Notes

1—Paul Magriel
On the drawsheets of elite backgammon tournaments, sandwiched
named top players, like Nack Ballard, Mike Svobodny, or Dirk Schiemann
the unlikely name X-22 ("X" to his friends!). How did a former math p
Junior Chess Champion named Paul Magriel evolve into backgammon Wor
In the late 1960s, Paul, like many young New York City gamesmen,
"Tomchin Notes," Chapter 5). It was there that he learned to play backgamm
Obsessive behavior and genius are often linked, and both traits are
echelons of game players— not all expert game players are geniuses, but a
in this world, so heavily populated by the weirdly obsessive, Paul stood
mirrored sunglasses, and his jerky movements suggested that he really was
it, a "Human Computer." Even today, Paul is known for his tics while play
than Michael Jordan's; like an escaped boa, it wags at passersby as he calcu
Realizing that tournament play had several unquantified nuances, he
puzzle. At the time there Were no books on match play; the backgammon
more than coverage of the rules and a set of recommendations for playing
64-player tournament drawsheet, labeled the entries X-l through X-64, and
every match. It took him months, but he painstakingly recorded the res
strategic differences that characterize match play. Finally, it came down t
and when the latter triumphed, Paul assumed X-22 as his nom de guerre.
It quickly became apparent that Paul was an unusually talented pl
Championship in the early '70s, his reputation was confirmed. During th
many newspapers carried backgammon columns (similar to the bridge c
became the backgammon columnist for the New York Times, which also
(1976). In it, Paul coined the vocabulary and created the working methods
thinking and writing about the game. While computers in recent years
positions (out of hundreds) that were misanalyzed, Paul's book stands to
backgammon and is universally acknowledged as the greatest work ever pe
By the early 1980s, quite a few players had reached Magriel's level. Fa
it enhanced it—more than half the world's best players were his students!
Amarillo Slim's Super Bowl of Poker. Today, he still plays poker, flies ar
and gives private lessons to the well-heeled. Though he plays backgammo
is still considered a formidable opponent. In June 2002, he won a premier
in the Las Vegas Masters.

2—Backgammon Points
The basic unit of backgammon scoring for tournament or money games
player either removes all checkers (playing pieces) from the board before
which the opponent chooses to pass (see "Doubling Cube"). A win is dou
player removes his last checker, his opponent has not yet removed
—"backgammon"—if the opponent has not yet removed any checkers and
the winner's home area of the board.

3—Doubling Cube
No one knows the who, when, or where regarding the invention of the d
in the mid-'20s, and it probably happened in a New York City bridge club—
the most perfectly conceived wagering concepts ever devised. In a nutshell
the stakes in a wager, though its skillful use is much better described as
variations are used in many gambling situations, including such diverse gam
primary milieu is, without question, backgammon.
The initial value of the doubling cube is usually 1, though in money
higher. A player may, during his turn but before rolling the dice, offer to do
choose to concede 1 point, thereby ending the game, or "take" the doub
Having six faces, the cube's markings are 2-4-8-16-32-64, and the taker ass
redouble (or not) at his option. (Obviously, in a 15-point match, any t
redundant, and even at money play, 16- and 32-cubes are somewhat rare.
have been achieved, though the more "unreal" the cube level, the mor
whether he will be paid.)
The mathematics of doubling seems quite simple—at first. If the dou
accept it if you have a 25% chance of winning the game. Assume that in
exactly a 25% chance of winning. The first time around you pass on the do
time, for a net loss of -4. The second time around you accept the double
while winning once. Again, your net is -4. If you pass when your chances
they are more, in the long run you'll come out far ahead of alternate strategi
pass," or "operate randomly."
In real life, however, doubling is enormously complicated. First, now d
below 25%? Some simple endgame positions may be precisely calc
themselves to fairly accurate measurement. Beyond that though, it ge
tournament play ;' even tougher. In money play, each point is worth a fix
points beyond the score needed to win a match are worthless, so there are o
near the end of the match. America dominated world competition for m
players from other parts of the world had no idea how to properly use the d

4—Props
The term prop is gambler-speak for a "proposition bet," which is a wag
of a game (for example, "I'll bet I can beat you at golf using only my putter
specific positions or doubling-cube decisions. The player offering the pro
ask, "Which side do you think is the favorite?" If a wager is arranged, the
over from that spot with the agreed-upon wager at stake each time. "Pro
appear to greatly favor the opponent, but actually give the prop hustler a big
Props involving sports prowess and bizarre challenges are also common

5—Banking
In many jurisdictions, casinos or card rooms are prohibited from acc
game (table, dealer, chips, etc.) and charge a fee to play. The players m
someone assuming the typical role of the casino and "banking" the game. T
organized groups—make their money as a casino usually does, by playing w

STAN TOMCHIN

Stan Tomchin claims he was "the most potent gambler in the world," an
was a chess master, bridge master, and possibly the world's best backgam
blackjack, race betting, and ultimately sports betting.
Raised on Long Island, New York, Stan started gambling at eight and
the basement of his parents' house. "At eight or nine years old, I was w
dollars in my pocket," he says. After becoming a chess master at 13, h
discovered there was no money to be made at chess. Stan won a national b
the U.S. in the bridge Olympiad.
Stan first discovered backgammon in a bridge club in New York,
considered the best player in the world. Backgammon put Stan on the r
London to the Caribbean to the Playboy Mansion in Beverly Hills. As his re
But then, as was his pattern, he gave it up for something new: big-time spor
Stan was a member of the original Computer Group. He and his par
hockey—often as much as $3 million to $5 million on a weekend. They p
other, sometimes betting both sides and catching a middle to reap huge p
light on the workings of the famous Computer Group, but from a som
example, Stan discusses betting big on the same Michigan/Auburn football
interview. But where a loss would have cleaned out Walters, Tomchin was
that he kept piling on the bets.
Stan makes his home in Montecito, California, about two hours north
the Pacific Ocean and the Santa Ynez Mountains, it's an enclave of movi
Stan Tomchin, it's the perfect place to sit back, reflect, and talk about his in

How did you first get interested in gambling?

I started gambling when I was about eight. I never looked at it as ga

termed it. To me it was very short-term investing. I was making my bets w
But the range of games I played was enormous. At eight or nine years ol
hundred dollars in my pocket. I played poker at the Malibu Beach Club on
the summer I played poker and gin. I sat behind the old men who play
ridiculous. I thought, I'm better than they are. I got out the Encyclopedia B
theory of probability and games. I ran a poker game all through grade scho
of my house. I never got an allowance from my parents. I always had as m
game.
I played chess seriously beginning at eight or nine years old. I was a
stopped when I got to Cornell. I played a little bit as a freshman, but there
hungry to make money, so I learned bridge.1 Bridge was a fantastic game.
 1
For this and subsequent numeric references 2-6, see "Tomchin Notes" at the end of this chapter.

Was there money in bridge?

You could make a living playing as a bridge professional, and you cou
high stakes. Of all the games I've played, I think bridge was probably th
represented the United States in the Olympiad. I played with Al Roth, on
modern era; he was my partner for many years. So the bridge world was
income, high income, all ranges of people. At the bridge clubs I went to,
Match-point bridge is what's played at the big tournaments, but you cou
where I excelled. After awhile, backgammon became popular.
The club I played in was the Mayfair 2 in New York. I actually gave A
Eventually, it succeeded and he became very prosperous. All I did in col
spent fourteen, sixteen hours a day in the game room. I never went to class
at all. I would just go to my instructors and beg to take the finals and hop
there, three or four years later after getting out of the military, I took up brid
The first two years at the Mayfair I played bridge, but I could play ba
great backgammon players there: Art Dickman, Tobias Stone. I was the sc
them play and that was my training ground.
I studied with a friend of mine, Paul Magriel [see "Svobodny Notes, C
player. We used to play at the Mayfair. After the Mayfair closed, we'd go
out and study positions. There was no literature on backgammon then. No
up with theories that would blow people's minds. These were the best back
all of a sudden I was the best of the best. I just dominated the game.
From there, there was a whole world to go out and explore. Nobody kn
Nobody knew that it Was okay to get hit and sent back. People thought I w
many concepts that people didn't know anything about: timing, back games
write his book [Backgammon, by Paul Magriel].
I used to travel around the country and take Paul's book with me. I wo
and different places, then come back six months later and play backgamm
who were learning to play.
I remember one year Paul went down to a tournament in the Bahamas a
the side action was unbelievable. He'd won $50,000. The money just flow
next year I went down to St. Martin and I won a tournament. We were ma
of a sudden we could make $5,000 a week; plus, these people were delig
social graces and how to treat people. What they really wanted was to p
player around. If they did happen to win, they didn't want to cash your chec
with your name on it.
So backgammon became very important to me, even though bridge wa
supported me and I knew I could make a lot of money at it.
1
For this and subsequent numeric references 2-6, see "Tomchin Notes" at the end of this chapter.

What did your parents think of all this?

I was an outcast in their minds until years later. Prince Obolensky had
the '70s. [Prince Alexis Obolensky was a big backgammon supporter in th
the author of Backgammon: The Action Game and published a magazine t
He wrote an article after I won the St. Martin tournament, saying that I w
tenacity, and that I was probably the best backgammon player in the world.
on the wall. All of a sudden it was okay to be a gambler. When you repres
Olympiad, people give you some credit.
One time Paul Magriel and I went to London with $25,000. We
phenomenon named Ezra. Twenty-five thousand was a lot of money thirty
Ezra and I was going to keep an eye on Paul. Paul was a renowned back
very quiet. Nobody knew who I was. I liked this arrangement, because I cou
when I wanted to. They had an agreement to play a hundred-point freeze
two days and they broke even. They were flat. Neither could win. Ezra
played a very safe game of backgammon, unlike our style, which was ver
games." He just looked at me, because I was like the backer there.

freeze-out—A match in which the players put up an agreed-on amount

the entire stake.
backer— Someone who puts up money for gambling. Often the playe
but have no liability if he loses.

We sat down and started playing, I think for $1,000 a point. y[y strat
game as complicated as possible. Either I made a prime or I had a back ga
in those days, if you really made the position complicated, people didn't k
like chess. Some masters won't make the best move; they make the most co
chess principles to my backgammon game, which is why I think I was as go
I never got into a race. Say you look at a situation and think, hey, I'm fi
for a race. Bullshit! Why do you want to be [only] fifty-five percent agains
to win seventy percent of the games if you just throw the checkers on th
grinding and grinding and I must have won $15,000 or so. Slow but steady
day or two and said, "You're too good. I don't want to play." He knew, h
battle. In his mind he was supposed to win these positions, and he wasn't w
So we'd done well, won some money, and we were in London at a plac
a casino owned by a gambler who liked to play backgammon. We were t
because he had plenty of money. It was an ideal situation, because again,
backer. If they didn't want to play Paul, they played the backer. So Pau
roulette, which at that time Was his favorite game. He'd come up with the
every loss3...

Oh no!

So I had to take the money away from Paul and get a different safe-de
all.
I remember bankrolling Paul in these backgammon tournaments. We
Paradise Island. It was pitiful. The pigeons were lined up. There were no s
was Arthur Dickman maybe. Eventually, Chuck Papazian got involved a
tournament; Chuck was a great player. Paul would be broke. I'd have to g
with people who had millions and millions. If you sat down with these
hundred points. I'd set him up in these games and at the end of the week I'd
I said, "Paul how could you lose to these people?" "Well, the cube got to s
to gamble with them. You're here to beat them. They want to write you a ch

It sounds like this willingness to be relatively unknown helped

have had otherwise.
 When I started out, I figured that if I was very low-key and nobody r
help. Now I'm not so sure, because throughout my backgammon career,
years, people wanted to play the good players. The more tournaments you
won a lot of tournaments back in the '70s and '80s—the more they wanted t
I came out to California and won a tournament. Suddenly, I was a c
Hefner's people. "Do you want to come over and play some backgammon
was great. I was twenty-five years old and I was at the mansion for two
twenty-five dollars a point. He'd be in his pajamas. Hef would finish
backgammon. It would be two or four o'clock in the morning. Finally I'd s
It didn't matter to him because it was twenty-five dollars a point. If I won
To me it was a lot of money. He didn't want me to leave; he'd play for two
up in the morning and go out to the Jacuzzi and there would be all these
social. There were butlers and valets. Anything you wanted to eat or whatev

Resident backgammon player.

Yeah. He had a nice game room. I met a lot of interesting people. I wa

nice; if they wanted to gamble, we gambled. It didn't matter what the stakes

What's the most you ever won at backgammon?

There was an older woman who was very wealthy. One night we pla
been up a couple hundred thousand. One of the things you learn as a gamb
person you're playing and make a judgment. What does that person expec
them for more than they expect to lose. If it's too much, you have to lose it
they're willing to pay. Part of playing is, you have to get paid. I remember,
girlfriend at the time was sitting next to me and she couldn't believe it. She
We played into the night and the woman won and won and we wound
didn't bother me, because I knew she would play the following week. We
girlfriend said, "That's all? I want more." So we looked at each other a
writing me a check for three or five thousand. It didn't really matter what I
pay was what she was comfortable paying.
 Did you ever run into problems with being cheated?

I wasn't cheated [to a great degree]. But yes, there was cheating going o

You dodged that bullet?

The cheats didn't necessarily want to go after the top players. I think
played so much backgammon. That was all I did.
One time I was in Monte Carlo and halfway through the match I went
told them I was being cheated. I didn't know how, but I knew it. I was losin
a 21-point match. I got up from the table and I told the tournament commi
the match to a separate room. They had a new board new dice, and two re
won another game.
As I went through backgammon I saw a lot of cheating. Not of me,
protect people. I had a good friend who had a beach club in Florida with
advise him on sports and horses, because he loved to gamble. Someone ca
magnets.4 When he went down to play, they turned on the magnets and ch
wasn't experienced enough to realize what was happening. I could sense it.
I grew up as a bridge player in the early '60s, and the ethics and mora
were extremely high. My role models were guys like John Crawford and A
say, "Please keep your hand back." [So as not to inadvertently see you
carried forward from bridge into other games. You just don't cheat. You
win without cheating.
In the early '60s I was a very good bridge player. John Crawford wou
guns and we'd go to Europe to play. The morality of the Europeans was com
okay to cheat. And if you got caught, you went back to the drawing board
played in Hungary and Poland. The Italians were notorious, and j so were t
each other right at the table. So I was alerted pretty young in life.
When I was in high school I used to go up to Grossinger's to play gin in
a resort in the Catskill Mountains in upstate New York.] When you've beat
have to go up to the next level. For me, Grossinger's was the next step up.
there was playing gin and he was cheating. What do you do. At some poin
said, "Okay, hut you can't cheat." I played him and he beat me. He cheated
to New York and decided that that was enough of that.
One year I went to Monte Carlo to play in the World Championship ba
were between a woman I knew from New York and a scoundrel, a world
man. I had known him for many years, so we were cordial. There was a gu
He made the line Scoundrel -150. I knew the woman and we were friends. E
won four or five matches, she came to me and said, "I need to go home with
I said, "You're in the round of sixteen and we're going to hedge." So every
we're hedging, so she's giving some back, but she's securing equity. She
She gets into the finals and she's in a position that no matter what happen
$15,000. She was ecstatic.

hedge—Away to reduce risk. Tournament players often use hedges to

payday by agreeing to split all prize money, regardless of the match result.

Now I see this price on Scoundrel and I think, this is ridiculous. This is
be more like 3-1. [If you wanted to bet on Scoundrel, you had to bet
Scoundrel was so much the better player that the proper price should ha
$10,000 on Scoundrel, and so did two friends. We watched the match on
threw up. I said, "Forget about it; the fix is in." I don't know how they
bookies had paid Scoundrel to throw the match]. Then I find out that inste
had pressed on herself. That just confirmed it to me.

press — To double a bet.

It turned out that Scoundrel was very popular in London and tad a big
were betting enormous founts of money on him. I knew I was cheated, but
feelings aside as quickly as possible. I resolve my conflicts. I've learned ho
regard to people who try to take advantage of me. And people have adv
biggest pigeon there is.

In what way?

As far as being a soft touch, giving money away, setting people up in b

Money has come so easily for me. If I can do some good with it, fine. If I
If someone betrays me, they're out of my life. I don't need them. That's wh
cheated were very talented. Most of the people who were really talented did
There was a time back in the '70s when everybody was doing cocaine.
had a little bottle and it was all very fashionable. I don't even think peop
common. People were playing backgammon high on coke. They were playi
— in their minds. They didn't know they were stinking up the joint. A goo
and said, "Watch me play. I'm playing so well. I'm getting unlucky and not
His perception, of course, was completely opposite of the reality. My point
Alcohol and gambling don't mix. Exercise and gambling do. That's a good m

You have to put up with some really awful personalities to play b

That's one of the reasons I went to betting sports. You're on the phone
person you're dealing with. You don't concern yourself when you go throu
bookmaker is making money from someone else. You don't have any fe
directly. Plus, you don't have to put up with the vagaries of the people you
who wants to deal with those people?

You dabbled in roulette. How did that project come about?

Through a guy who later became a partner of mine. He liked to bet on

some substantial money following me around the world. I was in Las Vega
everything. He came to me and said, "I have a computer in my shoe. I can t
go try it." We'd go out and find the wheels and guess what? The next day t
beat it for a day, they'd change it. You need a casino with a big ego t
European casino, because they make so much money off roulette.

So there wasn't any serious money to win.

No. You had to find a biased wheel. It wasn't that sophisticated. This i
difficult. It's the casino's job to find out what you're doing and negate yo
was so much better. It's universal and you aren't necessarily hurting the b
what you're doing, not only can you win, but you can also help the bookma
customers. In effect, you're playing against the customers. If you lay sev
line to eight and a half. A sharp bookmaker takes advantage of a sharp play
sharp player out of his store is an idiot.

But it seems like they all do that now.

How could you not want the information? You're right; some of them a
Gradually I shifted my interest from backgammon to sports betting.
sports bettor at a time when they thought nobody could beat sports. All the
knew what he was doing. He would bet on Saturday, twenty or thirty gam
me and I'd root with him. I started developing an interest in sports b
backgammon. I loved playing backgammon and winning the money,
potential; there was no competition.
The bookmakers got a line from some other bookmaker. There were d
the country. Nobody really knew what the line should be. There wasn't a lo
lost.
I had a good friend who would go down to Times Square and buy
Remember, there was no Internet. He would buy thirty or forty out-
everything but the sports sections, then bring them to my apartment. All I w
I became absorbed with keeping statistics and tracking what was happenin
writer for the Atlanta Journal decided that the Atlanta Hawks were beaten
road trip. This was great, because it wasn't reflected in the line. That's real
better line than the bookmakers do.
The bookmakers never believed it. There was an old guy at the May
"Don't bet. You're going to lose all your money. Everybody loses."
We became the biggest sports bettors in the country over time. But the
a full touchdown in football. We built an organization around the count
hooked up with the Computer Group in Las Vegas [see "Walters Not
important for me to be able to bet than to handicap. I still handicapped, bu
computers in a much broader way. They could handle every game, all the
amounts of money for years. I guess I started betting in the early '70s. I mov
 handicap — To evaluate a horse's, team's, or player's chances of winnin

Back then, would Las Vegas sports books let you bet all you wan

Well, the biggest bookmakers were in New York. I moved to Las Veg
was a horse handicapper. He had a system that clocked the true distance
After doing his handicapping, he'd come back and say, "This horse really ra
shows onI the form."
I'm talking about handicapping six East Coast tracks, every race. He
o'clock at night and go over the results for the day. He'd finish at three o'cl
with his work. I would add a substantial amount to his order and I would be
out the bookmakers. There were stories about some of these horse bookm
Well, by the time we were done, their cash had disappeared. We were hold
on volume.

order—A list of bets for a given day.

on volume — A consideration of total money wagered. To win a perc
that percentage to the total amount wagered.

So it behooved me at some point to move to Las Vegas. I think it wa

Club. At that time, I'm sure I was the most potent gambler in the world. I w
the world and one of the top bridge players. I was a very proficient black
that time. It just wasn't rewarding enough, but I could play poker with an
and now all of a sudden I had this horse betting, which was holding eight or
So I appeared on the scene in Las Vegas. People saw me as this crazy
going to blow out, and that was the image I wanted. The Stardust opened th
I would go in there and bet five football games and probably twenty or
Laurel, Hialeah, and all the East Coast tracks. I'd walk up and bet two thou
and five hundred on the daily double. Then I'd go back into the casino an
blackjack shoe for me, so I'd sit down and start betting a grand a hand
tickets ... I bet hockey, basketball, it didn't matter. I even played craps, whi
proof for the casinos that I was a madman.5 If I went in there and once in
gave me license to do anything I wanted.
 In Ian Andersen's second book, Burning the Tables in Las Veg
for cover.

Ian and I were around at the same time and we developed a lot of the sa
were friends. I haven't talked to him in years, but back then we talked a lot.
a small group of players who counted for me. I would play very high, $500

cover— Making less-than-optimal bets or plays to look unsophisticated

You were using them to count shoes for you and call you in?

Right. It was more for the lark and the comps. But I did it sporadically
Even betting $5,000 a hand, you're not talking about a huge edge.

Right, compared to what you were doing in sports.

If I played for a total of six hours, my expectation was maybe $10,000.

month or two or three. I stayed alive pretty long. The key, of course, was n
the early '70s, a guy I considered the best blackjack player around taught m
best single-deck blackjack player there was. You had end-play situations. Th
did the casinos know that there was so much money in blackjack. The best
was Thorp's book [Beat The Dealer, by Edward O. Thorp]. Ninety-nine percen

deal around the corner — In blackjack, to deal an entire deck to the

even if in the middle of a hand. This practice created "end-play" possibili
could ascertain the values of cards at the end of the deck.

I had a group that I taught how to play blackjack. They were options t
players. They would come out on a junket and I would meet them at the ho
They would play, sometimes checking in two hotels at once, because a lot o
airfares. If you could play two hotels, you had double equity-The attraction
When I was playing blackjack, I had a technique where I had little stra
off my drinks into a little bag. I could sit at the table and drink straight s
keep ordering them. It's hard for the casinos to bar you when they think y
played more than a half-hour at a time in one casino. It's the results that ev
much you disguise your play, if you're a consistent winner the casino will s
I used to bet with Churchill Downs. An old-time bookmaker owned
couldn't believe we were winning. We couldn't be fixing races, because I w
were betting every track on the East Coast. It was just a very sophisticat
time. That lasted about three or four months until he gave up.
It was really fun to be a gambler before computers came along, whe
mind. Now it's different. All those edges you used to find have disappear
crunched everything.

Computers have revolutionized backgammon as well.

For me it took two years to attain a level that kids today can get to in a
computer, and with the interchange of data and information, he can becom
in three to six months.

How did the Computer Group come about?

I met Ivan Mindlin through someone else. I was in Las Vegas betting
baseball program and a database. He was a surgeon and a little bit of a
some money. I was betting horses and he'd tag along With me and sort of
is a guy is a surgeon.
I would bet, and he would bet fifty or a hundred bucks on my picks. W
He'd bet a hundred and get thirteen hundred back. It was impressive. We
for value by betting a 50-1 shot that should have been 5-1. Ivan respect
horses and at sports. Then I moved back to New York after about a year, b
spots. We stayed in touch. I had a whole network of people.

chalk—A horse favored to win. These horses offer the smallest odds
betting the favorite.
 And you were doing this just out of your head? No computers?

We were doing it out of our heads. We were gathering information in c

good handicappers. Then Ivan met a guy named Mike Kent in Las Vegas. K
but he'd developed this computer program. Ivan helped him get down. Ivan
I need." And I said, "No problem." Kent would bet something and then I
then I would show it to someone else and all of a sudden we're betting a lo
edge—maybe our edge was twenty percent. We busted bookmakers. We ju
My job was to cultivate markets and to keep developing markets. Be
bet, we started devoting our business to finding bookmakers, getting down,
After a couple of years we developed a following, and the followers we
walked in and bet a $2,000 exacta, the problem wasn't my bet, but the mon
used to pay track odds, so the exacta might pay $105 on a $2 bet. Even a
three hundred people, you're talking about $3,000 following you around.
When I was betting with the old-time bookmaker, I'd get up at six-thir
his book. I'd walk in before anyone got to work and give him my list of tw
bundled up. He'd take it and shove it in a drawer. Nobody knew what we w
let it be known what I was betting. We could bet out of town as long as the
We could even bet in other books, but he didn't want the pressure of having
the same stuff.
In sports I would go early in the week and bet a side -4. I'd bet maybe $
would be -7 and I'd have $250,000 on the other side. I'd bet right before p
other side. I would bet games where we had no opinion, because we had t
also do things just to frustrate the followers.

post — The start of a game or race.

How did the followers know what you were doing?

It's not hard. Just look at the line.

Wouldn't the followers assume that the smart money isn't going t
 That wasn't true. Sometimes I'd bet early in the week. It was really an
around the country. Bookmakers are smart. When the world has -7 and a
-6.5, something is wrong there. He's supposed to be getting Dallas mo
something. I don't have to know what he knows. I only have to know that
world has -7. I know he thinks that betting against Dallas is the right place
that the game is supposed to be -6,1 would elevate that into a much bigger
is supposed to be -8 or -8.5, I don't want to play. We bet so many games
good at that, "reading lines" it's called.

smart money— Expert players who bet with an advantage.

Calling all those bookmakers must have taken an enormous amou

I had a team of people who did it. I never called a single bookmaker. M
"Here are the lines." I had a big sheet and I'd say, "Read me the number
knew where the linemakers were located. I knew which ones were sharp. I
put up a line and stick with it awhile.
When a game opened at 6.5 and moved to 7, then, slowly over the w
when a game opened at 6.5 on Monday, and on Tuesday it was 8, that wa
had come in and someone knew something. There are a lot of intrica
something I studied for years. I was able to solve the riddle.
I don't even have to know who's playing. I don't have to know anythin
can tell you the winners.

I would think that all the computer teams out there have made
beat.

Yeah. Volume is the problem. If you have to go out and bet $50,000 o
o'clock in the morning. You have to wait for the rest of the world to open.
you have the other guys who don't have to bet $100,000 a game. They only
may light on the same games you want to light on. So if the game opens Gi
the game may be -4.5 before you can play.
When I used to move the computer order we were betting $3 million t
almost every game. It was an art to bet that kind of money. I would bet the
week, both to push the line in the direction I wanted it to go and to get t
want to beat the bookmakers. I wanted to work with them. They would bea
part of that.
We dealt with two hundred bookmakers. We had offices to do the b
People from the Mafia were interested. We had to avoid them. People from
One of the good things I did was always declare my gambling winnings. S
or audited me, they would see very large gambling winnings.

It doesn't surprise me that the government got interested.

Probably the biggest concern of the government is the fixing of game

always easy. Bookmakers don't carry guns and they have lots of cash the
They're easy targets.
As far as the sports bettors are concerned, the game changed. What
Maybe other things kicked in, but today the edges are getting smaller
sophisticated people out there. Some will find small edges, some will fin
able to make five to ten percent on turnover, but you have a lot of problem
paid. Messenger betting is now illegal in Nevada.

That means, if I'm in Nevada and I send someone to the casin

illegal, right?

Yes. That's messenger betting. When I was betting sports, we had g

talkies. Everybody bet at the same time. At one casino it was $5,000, anot
bet $100,000 or $200,000 in one second. That's messenger betting. Not lon
a law making it illegal. This was just the casinos trying to prevent the bi
winning.

It goes against what you said earlier about how they should want

In the old days, a guy named Bob Martin was the linemaker. He was a
the line and the first thing he would do was call his sharpest bettors and off
New York, he would call me, through an intermediary, to offer me his foot
he had Rams -7 and I took the Rams. Now he knew he should move it [awa
morning when the line opened around the country it would be Rams -8.5. H
wager], $10,000 or $20,000, just to get the information.

If your edge is ten percent, then he's only giving up $1,000 or

information. That's a great deal for him.

The casinos really shouldn't worry about messenger bettors, but they're

Would you say that casinos have the attitude that anything that's g
for them?

Sure. They don't realize that there can be a win/win situation.

At some point you left the Computer Group.

At one point in time I retired. I got out of sports, because there was to
key and I'd started to get notoriety. I didn't need that. There was a lot of in
timing was pretty fortunate, because I quit before the computer case occu
what we were doing, but it's something the government looks at askance. W
had made enough money, so we retired. Just like with chess, bridge, and b
on.
I moved to California, got married, had a baby, and gave up most o
devote time to my wife and daughter. I had a seat on the Pacific Coast S
options. I also started to look at the commodities market. This was i
programmer, who was very good, create a trading model. In the early '8
people didn't know [about the potential]. I had some ideas and he was able
a program that identified trends. Today, everybody does it. Back then it wa
In one year we took $300,000 and turned it into $1 million. It was ver
was great and we had two or three wonderful years. But my partner didn't u
bet ten or twenty percent of our bankroll on every bet [trade]. I said, "W
percent is probably too much." We got into a lot of conflict. This was a gu
and all of a sudden he had $1.5 million. I said, "Why don't we take down a
it in the bank so you'll have some money?" Then the market got competit
edge.

Do you see any similarities or differences between trading com

and the gambling business?

The biggest difference has to be the, quote, legality. As a sports betto

was concerned. It was okay to be a sports bettor in New York City. The l
ten was legal. In California the law reads differently. Even if you're [only]
crime.

Is Internet sports betting illegal in California?

Well, there are a lot of gray areas. Can I call London and have a fr
Ladbrokes in London and place a bet myself from California? It doesn't se
bet is taking place in London.

Of course, you may have trouble getting paid on the Internet.

You have to know the people behind the casinos and know that it's oka
in the industry.

When I asked you to compare trading and gambling, I meant

winning player.

Most of gambling is money management. It's not identifying an

something I studied twenty or thirty years ago. And people aren't aware o
sixty or sixty-five percent of their bets in sports who, at the end of the s
they're broke. The skill to manage your bankroll over the course of you
should be taught. I teach that to my daughter who is seventeen. I think to th
How you identify your edge. That could be a little different There's re
in people who are good handicappers. But you want to make sure you han
many people who've had an edge, but went tap city. Almost everybody ove

It also seems that many people get an edge and make a lot of mo
some other form of gambling where they have no edge.

Some of that is exploring. A person might make a million dollars at sp

go into the commodities market and put up x number of dollars for a
exploration. I wasn't sure we had an edge. At one point in time I was
commodities fund.

That seems like a very organized approach. You decide to devo

experiment. That's different from going out and playing craps.

Why do gamblers blow their money playing craps or betting sports wh

that? Because they don't see an end to the money they're making at backg
"God, I can make five hundred or a thousand bucks a day. I can blow it he
think it can end.

So it seems like you approach all business with the same kind
exploit it, whether it's real estate or blackjack.

That's what life is about in my mind.

Is it enough action for you?

Now I work out. I do a lot of physical stuff. I've been weight lifting fo
five times a week. I'm a good tennis player and we've put together a tea
which is an over-fifty league, for the world championships in Palm Springs

Do you gamble at tennis?

No. I don't have much of a tendency to gamble. I was long the Russi
don't like to lose.
 For someone that gambled for so many years...

But I didn't consider that gambling. Now what I do is make very large
return are thirty to forty percent per annum. My daughter is an athlete in he
teach some tennis, I teach some chess. I like dealing with kids. I'm in the B
I have a ten-year-old boy whom I see once a week. Occasionally, I take him
that making the world a better place is more rewarding. How much money

Forget the money. How about the action? Do you miss that pump

I go to the gym and leg press a thousand pounds. I get pumped from th
it lasts ten hours a day. When you get into your forties you have to make
live the rest of your life. When I had my teams in Las Vegas, one of the th
every day. We worked out, there was no alcohol, we ate right, and we got o

Do you remember what the biggest bet you ever made was?

The biggest bet I've made was in real estate. I put eighty percent of my
made at sports for myself was about $400,000. It was probably '84. Bo J
Michigan. We'd had a fabulous football season and won untold amounts of
and that's where our strongest edge was. There were two games. A partne
other partner and I were more aggressive, so we were betting larger and larg
Now we get this game where UCLA is playing Illinois. Half the team
bridge player or backgammon player who has the flu and can't think. This
he's a little sick. They opened the game at Illinois -4, which was ridiculous
favorite. The first thing we did was play Illinois -4, because we knew the p
went to 6 and we bought UCLA taking 6.5 and 7. The bookmakers wer
money on Illinois. I said, "Okay, let's go bet more." We took 7, we took 7.
for us to take it, because they were loaded on the other side. You should
remember what the score was. [UCLA won 45-9.]
Now, I think it was the same day, or maybe that night, the last game
Michigan. Auburn opened about -4 and the line runs to -7. We'd already w
are we supposed to do?" We were way out of our league as far as money
this was what I call a gambling opportunity. I'm up so much it doesn't matt
I bet? I have no idea.
We ended up taking 4.5,5,5.5,6,6.5,7,7.5. It was a great game. Mich
game and Auburn was driving. If the game falls 6,1 think we lose a little b
we took a lot of 4, 4.5, 5, and 5.5. They got the ball and it was third and g
give the ball to Bo Jackson. If Michigan can stop Auburn, we know Aubur
two. That means we win all the bets. Bo Jackson goes into the line and bu
he pulls away and runs to the outside and, oh shit, it looks like he's goin
pounds him and he goes backwards, but he doesn't fall down. He goes ba
comes and they tackle him on the one-yard line. The clock had ten second
Auburn won by two. We won all the bets.
My partner, who was out of the country at the time, comes back and lo
the hell happened? How could you bet that amount of money?" I said, "I
was there. I knew I had the right side. We made Michigan a reasonable fav
so I knew we were going to get paid. The bookmakers were making a fo
difference financially. What's the difference? A zero here, a zero there.

When you said you bet eighty percent of your bankroll on real
was okay to do?

I didn't. I read about all these people who were buying from Resolut
who were in the stock market were getting out and going into real estate
stock market was terrific in the '90s also, but real estate is riskless, bec
undervalued with income.

Are there particular concepts from gambling that you think ap p

that you think are important for young people to learn?

Oh yeah. Absolutely. In a lot of different areas. What we talked about be

not peculiar to gambling. That's important in all of life. I have a guy whom
write-off situation. I got a call the other day. I'd put him in some real-estat
hadn't been particularly good. He wanted to know if he could borrow aga
said, "Probably. How much do you need?" He said, "$80,000." I said, "Why
Well, he'd been shorting eBay, the stock. My blood started to boil. I sai
the wrong casino. You belong in the oil-and-gas casino or the real-estate ca
eBay? How much have you lost?" He'd lost $100,000. "How much is
$800,000. said, "You're married; you have a new baby. What are you doing
grinding." Here's somebody who was never taught rule number one: how to

grinding — Trying to make small amounts of money with little risk"

For me, learning to lose was the most important thing in gambling.
winning. They perform well. They play well. In blackjack you play you
winning or losing. It's only, "What's the count?" It's only, "What's the ap
has got to apply to all of life. It never affects me. If you're winning $10,0
make any difference. When you start to feel that you need the rush, then
question before: Do I miss the rush? No, because I never played for the rus
large amounts of money. But it was just an exercise in money management
When I was growing up, though my parents fought me all the way, I h
gambler. I was going to be Maverick. I think children should have a dream
they like and pursue that dream. I loved sports. I loved gambling. I loved n
the real measure of success in life? I think it's happiness, as opposed to f
home.
I think the job of a parent is to expose the children to experiences and l
daughter's volleyball games with her. Just to give her the concept of valu
playing a junior-varsity team. I said, "Let's make a line. The game gets
varsity a ten-point favorite. Who do you like?" She said, "I'm varsity; we'r
I'll take the JV plus 10 for one dollar." The varsity won all three games, b
she got an idea of value.

Let's say one of the kids that you're a Big Brother to is getting o
you and says, "I want to be a professional gambler. What should I do

I would say get an education. If you want to be a gambler, you'll nee

have to be very careful, because the lawyers themselves don't necessarily
start off with a very good accountant. Somebody who will be there for the
you want as much education as you can get. You want to be able to step ba
to be a poker player for twenty or thirty years, sitting and playing poker al
There's got to be more. Try sports, try commodities, try options, real estate.
Probably the thing that I promoted most to the gamblers I nurtured was
these people don't realize that as they get older, they're going to lose their
edge. You don't know how long it's going to last. I used to discuss this w
going to recognize when we don't have an edge anymore? That's very impo
I would also tell a young gambler to study. Get all the data, get all
relentless in information gathering. You may not be able to get the a
information? Maybe six months from now a light will go off in your
somewhere. I know this answer."

The more you know, the more you can take advantage of.

Exactly. Someday you'll walk in the door of a place and there'll be m

your education. Whether it's local community college or reading maga
reading a book by George Soros on the decline of capitalism.
In school I was always against the crowd. That's a lesson I would de
contrarian. Just because everybody agrees about something doesn't mean i
want to see the information. I want to know why.

It seems to me you're quite unusual. There aren't many people w

bridge player, or as a backgammon player, and then just give it up.

Like chess. When I started college I was a very high-rated chess player
on and do something else. Perhaps enable other people around me to b
pleasure out of seeing that.

Are there any books that stand out for you?

There's a book called Against the Gods, by Peter L. Bernstein. I think

people who want to gamble, or anybody who wants to manage his a
management. That's all gambling is: risk management. You can lose, you
That's really what you're trying to determine. As I've said, there's a gene
bankrolls.

I think gamblers tend to overbet, but non-gamblers tend to not ta

They have no idea of what it means to identify an edge. They don

Gamblers look at the world differently. A lot of people tend to be ultra-c
taught this, otherwise they go broke right away, but other gamblers tend
when they're winning to assume their edge is much bigger than it is in real
on the conservative side. You're going to live sixty, seventy, eighty years. H
there eventually, as long as you don't go tap city. Take your time. There's n
As a professional gambler, I think it's appropriate to bet on talented p
experience tells me that if someone who's a winner has had an accident and
I should. And I'm delighted to do it. Delighted. It doesn't matter what the
consumed with getting it back and becoming a winner again. They'll work s

have an accident—To lose a lot of money, or to "get broke."

In reality what you're betting on is people. If you have a guy with a win
you're not going to make any money. It's not so much the idea, but the
winners—people who are truthful and honest. You don't want to hear peop
Sure, people can exaggerate a bit, but if you start to hear lies, get up. I al
find that people who are loyal to their spouses are good partners. The
someone who is betraying his wife, why wouldn't he betray you?

Do you find more people with those qualities in the gambling

legitimate business world?

I think you have to find the right people. You sense these things. You d
How do you know which bookmakers to bet with? What we tried to do w
agents. We paid the agents very well to find the bookmakers and guarante
money, but they stood as a guarantee. You had to know that they would do
 Gambling is a tough business. You have to have a lot of discipline. Mo
have the discipline. First of all, they have to go broke. If they haven't gone
bet on them yet, because they haven't had that experience. The best busines
clear in the beginning. What is our deal? What happens if? What happens i
one of us thought of? Gambling can be a stepping stone to other areas. I d
"I'm a poker player and that's it." You have to go on.

Do you still follow sports?

No. I can't bet legally in California, and if I can't bet, I'd rather wat
always looked at games as a tree. You climb the tree and you get to the hi
to. When you're there you climb down and go on to another tree. You go on

Tomchin Notes

1—Bridge Culture
Contract bridge evolved from an old game called whist. Beginning in
added to whist, and with each change came a new name to distinguish the a
In 1925, for example, Harold Vanderbilt, playing "auction bridge" aboard
more exciting method for keeping score. He named his creation "contract
win a certain number of tricks). Soon after, a young card-playing hustl
arrived in New York from the Soviet Union, seized on the game as a means
himself. Culbertson had a genius for promotion and within a decade, bridg
millions. (A measure of the fanaticism inspired by bridge can be found in
which Mrs. Bennett shot her husband after he bid a hand poorly and failed t
Bridge professionals can earn money in a few different ways. The first
has nearly vanished from the home-entertainment scene, but it's still a
American Contract Bridge League organizes tournaments small and large
held annually that draw as many as 20,000 tables over 10 days of play. Bri
charge minimal entry fees and don't award cash prizes. So what's at sta
enough points through tournament winnings and you earn various designat
now other ranks above and below it, the rank most familiar to the outsid
bridge fanatic, the acquisition of points is a consuming passion. Since you
it's important to have a good partner, and that's where the pro comes in. H
partner services. An established professional gets at least $500 for a day o
considerably more.
A pro's second way to earn money at bridge is, simply, to gamble on it
usually run from lc to 10c a point. The nickel and dime games are most com
not unheard-of. Serious players crank through four hands in a half-hour or
be 1,000 points, with occasional rubbers (rubber bridge: Vanderbilt's o
thousand points. In the course of an evening, even a dime game can lead
stakes climb north of $1 a point, serious money is being exchanged.
A third, though less common, way to earn money at bridge is th
international championships are primarily team events, and occasionally a
Texas businessman Ira Corn hired a half-dozen young pros in the late 1
payroll. This team, known as the Dallas Aces, was formed to challenge
which was virtually unstoppable from 1957 until the '70s. The Blue Team
Aces won the world championships in 1970, '71, and '72. The members of
success, with one pair, Bobby Wolf (now a syndicated columnist) and Bob
the greatest partnerships of that era.
While many storied gamblers have turned their talents on bridge, th
names from the world of high finance, including Bill Gates, Warren Buffett
and the late Malcolm Forbes. Players such as these often hire entire teams o

2—Mayfair Club
Bridge clubs have been around since the days of Cavendish, an 18th
expert whist player. Within the confines of these clubs, bridge, backgam
played for stakes.
One modern-day bridge club was the Mayfair in New York City. Durin
an irascible bridge legend named Alvin Roth. Far from upper-crust Eng
known to its denizens as the "Dump," the sort of place where some of th
after a long spell between winning rubbers or a series of setbacks in
surreptitiously scrounge through the sofas' deflated cushions for change,
were not as hungry as they were. Scrofulous it may have been, but Roth
who disliked him, as possessing one of the finest minds ever to focus on
the game's best players slouched through the Mayfair's doors.
 It was at the Mayfair that modern backgammon was born. In the 1960s
included Oswald Jacoby, Johnny Crawford (who wrote the New York T
Tobias Stone, co-creator of the Roth-Stone bidding system. But by the late
the same breath with the young elite: Paul Magriel (known as X-22), Chuc
Stan Tomchin. Magriel had written his landmark Backgammon in 1976, and
him: Eric Seidel, Roger Lowe, Jason Lester, and Billy Horan among them,
ago, and all Mayfair habitues.
During the same era, another backgammon club emerged, much more g
65 was founded by Tim Holland, a golf hustler who'd won three
championships in the 1960s. (See Fast Company, by Jon Bradshaw, for
wealthy duffers were happy to pay for the privilege of playing a three-t
stocked the exclusive Park 65 like a private fish pond; for years it was jo
allowed to enter. (In the mid-'80s, after his world-championship win, Mike
charming his way in.) Louise Goldsmith, a former Mayfair player who'd b
later opened a club called the Coterie, home to the best in the late '80s and e
All of these clubs are now gone from the scene. Of the several dubs t
today, the heir to the Mayfair is Alan and Lourdes Steffens' Ace Point C
Yorkers, but Danes, Russians, Israelis, and other Players from around the w
heeled than their counterparts of 20 years ago (some special chouettes are s
in), but they have two things in common with their forebears: They still
returning soda bottles for the deposit, and they're unquestionably among the

3—Martingale Folly
Sooner or later all gamblers are enticed by a betting system. These syst
because they call for bets to get progressively larger as a sequence goes o
these systems is called the "Martingale." It entails betting an even-money p
the roulette wheel. The bettor bets one unit, and if he loses, he then bet
wagers four units, and continues to double the bet until he wins. Once he w
be ahead by the original one unit. After winning, the Martingale player w
with a one-unit bet. The problem with this system is that you will eventua
enough to produce a catastrophic loss, on average exceeding the sum of all
thing to remember about all systems is that no method of betting your m
negative-expectation game.
 4—Using Magnets
One way that players cheat in games involving dice is to insert tiny we
of the dice. The side with the load is heavier, causing the dice to land more
subtle and sophisticated method is to use a much smaller load that's affect
positioned under the game board to affect the dice as they're rolled, or
electromagnet. In this case the current, or "juice," can be turned on and off.

5—Negative- vs. Positive-Expectation Games

Understanding the difference between negative and positive expecta
Here's an example of how to calculate expectation. If you were to place a b
a roulette wheel, you would make 38 wagers covering the numbers 1-36, p
number hits, you would lose 37 of those bets and be paid 35-1 on the one
loss of two betting units out of the 38, which is a loss of 5.26%. So i
expectation of 5.26%, which is what you expect to lose on every bet you m
In order for a professional to consistently make money, he must play
Casino games that offer potentially positive expectation for skilled playe
poker, sports betting, horse betting, and almost anything else under special
play or when played as part of a casino promotion. Most non-ca
backgammon, cribbage, and gin, can yield positive expectation to skilled ga

6—Expected Value
Also called "expected win/loss," "expected return," "expectation," or s
assessment of a gambling proposition's mathematical worth. An indispen
most major gambling decisions are ultimately made based on expected valu

CATHY HULBERT

In 1996, Card Player magazine published an article naming the top 7-c
only woman on the list was Cathy "Cat" Hulbert. The article said, "It mus
tokenism in the selection of Cat. She is that good." And since then, her gam
Prior to her poker career, Cathy traveled the world as one of the first
She was a member of the famous Czech team and was part of Ken Uston's
was arrested more than 50 times for trespassing. Cathy became so notoriou
in Asia before she even sat down at a table. Once, determined to beat casi
and full beard and took acting lessons to perfect her disguise as a man.
Between blackjack and poker, Cathy was also a professional slot playe
who sat and pulled handles for her when progressive jackpots reached prof
the grimiest, dirtiest, hardest work I've ever done," says Cathy. "It's the low
Still, it was good for a few hundred thousand dollars.
Finally, after burning out on blackjack and slots, Cathy moved on to pok
years, until 1986 when she hooked up with David Heyden and Rick Gr
players in the world. She took lessons and began beating the game. In blac
big negative. In Poker, she found that the opposite was true, as men, with
manipulate. "No one challenges my authority at the table," she says of h
boys.
Today, Cathy splits her time between $80-$160 7-card stud at the Co
'em at Hollywood Park Casino, both in southern California. She took som
story of one of the most successful female gam. biers of all time.

Do you remember the first bet you ever made?

In a professional or non-professional capacity?

Non-professional, as a kid.

No, it wouldn't have been as a kid. It would have been in Las Vegas.

Really? Did you play games as a kid?

Oh, all the time.

But you never played for pennies or nickels?

 From five years old on, all I ever wanted to do was play games And I w

What kind of games?

Mostly cards. Hearts, spades, bridge, and rummy. I played a lot of

interesting phenomenon when I moved to Las Vegas. I went from thinking
game players where I was nobody.

You were how old when you moved to Vegas?

Twenty-four.

Was that the idea? I'm going to go to Las Vegas and ...

Become a poker player.

Really? That was your original intent?

Yep.

You were playing poker at home?

No.

Wait a minute. You're twenty-four years old. You've never play

move to Las Vegas and be a poker player?

Right.

Didn't you think you should try playing at home to see if you eve

I knew that all I liked doing was playing cards. And poker is the only
for large amounts of money.

So what happened when you got to Las Vegas?

I was thinking about this the other night and laughing. I went to th
blackjack dealer. I was pretty intimidated, sitting there and getting acclim
said, "Blackjack is so simple. I can teach you. On my break let's go back to

The blackjack dealer wanted to go to your room on his break?

At twenty-four years old I can't believe I was that naive. We went to m

and all of a sudden his pants were down and I was just shocked. He said, "
need to know about cards. Is there anything else I can teach you?" It got re
falling off the bed, and punching and slapping. I got out of the situation
but...

And this was on his break?

On his break.

And he just went back down and started dealing cards again?

Right.

That's amazing.

I started to become jaded right about then.

You'd been in town five minutes. I'm sure you could have had the

In most situations where bad things happen to me, I usually blame myse

Do you remember the first time you went to the poker table in Ve
 A whole blackjack career comes before that. I just got lucky enoug
players.

Before you even tried playing poker?

When I first started trying poker, I'd already amassed great wealth.

How did that happen?

I got a job at the Union Plaza as a big six dealer. I wanted to be a black
listing on my resume that I was a college graduate. I remember them say
college graduate is going to like standing here spinning this wheel?" I thou
should have said I was a high-school dropout. I'd have a better chance of
big six, outside of working at a soap factory when I was fifteen, was the mo
thought, how can I make this more interesting? So I started trying to hit th
the casino started thinking I was the unluckiest big six dealer they'd ever
and let me deal blackjack.
I was struggling getting the cards out of the shoe when a guy name
immediately noticed the variation in his bets and thought it was strange. W
to be getting blackjacks and I wondered if there was a system involved
thinking a lot further than most pit bosses ever did. They didn't believe that
A couple days later a guy I'll call Tex came in and he was playing the
slow down to make it easier if he was using some system. Later he told m
me to deal as quickly as possible.

Oh, you were trying to help him.

I was, by slowing down. Then a group of Czechoslovakians came in an

two. I figured that this was a group of people who were all playing
Czechoslovakians that made up a large team of professional card cou
Czechs."] When Peter came in the next time I said, right across the table,
Why is it effective?" And he went, "Shhh, shhh. After work if you want to
please don't say anything more about it here." We went for coffee and he
wallet.

No! Sort of accidentally like, "Oops, my Mensa card"?

I said, this is just my type of person: Super Nerd. He wore pants th

showed his socks. I was immediately eager to learn the techniques of bl
teach me. [The two also entered into a romantic relationship.]

Do you remember about what year this was?

Mid-'70s.

So he started to teach you on your off hours?

Right.

Did he give you a book? Or did he just teach you from scratch?

Just from scratch. I met the other members of his blackjack team and
and standard deviation1 and fluctuation.2 I seemed to absorb this type of
have a mathematical background, Peter, who's a mathematical genius, s
understand what's correct without being able to do the computations myself
and the right person to ask them of.
1
For this and subsequent numeric references 2-4, see "Hulbert Notes" at the end of this chapter.

That's a very important skill. Was this a slow process? Or was it,
me everything you've got"?

It was a quick process. But I also knew I was in competition with Tody
[Tip was one of the players on the Czech team.] At that particular time,
woman to play blackjack. I know Tip thought it was a brilliant idea to hav
the same idea. No one would ever suspect a woman of counting cards. T
team members that this was a brilliant strategy.
There's nothing that precludes a woman from being able to count ca
special type of education to become a proficient card counter. I always use
We were in Salzburg once, and everywhere you looked it was Mozart:
Mozart's balls, whatever. Peter said, "I'll make you a bet that the Texan h
"All he has to say is that Mozart had something to do with music." Those w

If he mentions music you win.

Yes. And when we asked him, the Texan thought he was a baseball pla
the world's greatest card counters. He always knew what should be bet
down to the quarter chip. One time, when we were in Great Britain, he was
thought, I'll just take the train to the mainland. He had no idea that Gre
couldn't get to the continent by train. [This was before the Chunnel connect

So, you were still dealing blackjack at the Union Plaza while stud

For about three months.

And at the end of three months?

Peter was ready to travel to Europe, but that was also when Resorts In
City3 [in 1979]. Up until then I'd played only a short amount of time for ver

On the team bankroll?

The team didn't allow me to play on their bankroll. So whose money w

I've always said that no one ever staked me, but I guess I must be wrong. I
stakes.

So the team was ready to go to Atlantic City?

Peter was going to team up with Ken Uston. Ken's and Peter's life p
there was no chance these two people would ever get along outside the sp
to put a bankroll together. But Ken needed a bankroll. His group didn't have

That's odd. They should have had some money.

They did, but not enough because they wanted to flat-bet the maximum

flat-bet — Never changing the amount of your bet.

OK, so Ken and Peter get together, and Peter says, "I have this
said ...

"No way. Absolutely not."

Ken wouldn't even allow you to test?

No, absolutely not. Darryl [a Uston team member] worked with me o

me, but Ken was very much against it. It wasn't just me, it was the idea
playing blackjack.

In one of Uston's later books he talks about playing with a woman

The only thing I ever wanted to accomplish in my life was to be able to

what a woman is competent to do in a field where no one believed she coul
did in the blackjack world was make a breakthrough for other women. I k
much trouble with the Czechoslovakians and their opinion of women in g
later Walter [a member of the Czech team] came up to me at a party and
You certainly proved me wrong." Now, a lot of women play blackjack. I w

OK, so you went to Atlantic City.

Ken used me as "the bimbo." Just occupying a seat was worth a lot
opened their doors in the morning, people actually stampeded one anothe
security into a back room after he ran somebody over trying to get to a se
being open, every single seat was taken. I had great value just sitting there
I had no decisions to make. I was the bimbo.

Were you paid for that? Or did you just have the "honor" of sit tin

I think I received an hourly rate for that. But it was interesting seeing th
used his own special Uston Advanced Point Count 4 [UAPC]. It was so
would lose count, because he didn't really have the capacity to socialize w
keep the count. That's not to downgrade him; it's just very complicated I w
High-Low, and lots of times Ken would have to ask me what the count was
I remember I had $10,000 of my own at that time and I invested it al
made $30,000 in a week.

Wow.

So it was a great kick-start.

That ended pretty quickly, right?

I think it lasted only two weeks. Then Resorts International changed the

What was your family saying at this point?

I don't think I confided a lot. It was an embarrassment to them, becau

had graduated from college and they had high hopes. Earlier, I'd taken a job
they thought their daughter was going to amount to something.
Now I was in Las Vegas. My father once asked me, "What should I te
management. You won't be lying because I manage to get thrown out of
when I bought them a new car at some point when the wealth was coming i
My mother realized that when she told friends at work that her daughter w
had lots of questions. It put her in the limelight.
 Suddenly it was a good thing to do.

Right. I have a funny story. I had moved to an apartment in Vegas a

when I ran into the custodian of the building. We started talking about bla
he was on Ken Uston's blackjack team back at Resorts in Atlantic City. I
poor bastard? He tries to pick up this random girl, and she really was on t
to-one shot?

Poor guy. So you went to Europe with Peter and the Czechs?

Right. The first trip, I remember being in Holland, and I was still bein
everybody was starting to have money, and they figured there was no rea
when they didn't particularly need me at this point. Of course, the cha
downplayed. I actually became such a point of contention that it broke up
Peter, because he was introducing the Czechs to all these casinos.

Maybe I've forgotten the way the world was twenty years ago, b
wouldn't even test you to see if you knew how to play.

The world was amazing twenty years ago. I do have to give Peter a lo
even though we were in a personal relationship. Now we went back to Eu
Woods and some others.

Had you started playing yet?

When we came back from that first European trip, that's when I started

So when you started playing in Vegas, that's when you started ge

Right.

How did they pick you off so quickly? I would have thought
playing against four decks? They'll never figure this out.
 It really was an incredible backfire. Twenty years ago, it was highly un
blackjack table betting a lot of money. There would be some very wealthy
rare. So now you have, virtually, a kid who doesn't fit the profile—no je
comes in and bets from minimum to maximum. I didn't do any camouflag
rule of no camouflage betting. If you bet a quarter on one hand and the co
dollar bet on the next hand, that four-fifty went out there. I was methodic
strategy. It never even occurred to me to make camouflage bets. We were
shoving out the money, and it was disturbing to the pit bosses. Like, where

Camouflage — Just as soldiers use camouflage to effect invisibility in

use camouflage to effect invisibility in the casino. The idea is to make bets
but will make the counter indistinguishable from ordinary gamblers.

You got picked off quickly?

Very quickly.

Is that when you got into the Griffin Book?

I remember what I was wearing in the picture when I first saw myself
my picture at the Sahara. They took it from the sky. Fifteen years later, whe
nine years, I was sitting with someone who said, "Why do I know you?" T
Your picture is on the pit stand at the Bally's Casino." I said, "Still? I hav
nine years." He said, "Your picture is still there." He was a pit boss at Bally

sky— Casino surveillance. Also known as the "eye" or the "eye in the s

The picture thing came up again in Macau. The casino manager asked
allowed to play at Caesars Palace, what makes you think you'd be allowed
did haunt me throughout.

You had never played in Macau?

 I had played about three weeks in Macau before the picture caught up
such a remote area of the world and have the Griffin agency haunting m
Walker Hill [in Seoul, Korea]. If I could go back in time, would I still g
sincerely doubt it.

Did you try disguising yourself?

There was one situation at the Hilton where I had been barred. I guess
which shift I was barred on, because I was being barred so frequently.
meekly sitting there pushing out my quarter chip. I'd only been at the table
by and said, "Deal past that girl." I felt like Mario Thomas. "That Girl." Th
players is amazing. They're like, "What did she do? She's just sitting there."
realized I was on the same shift I'd gotten barred the day before. That's whe
shoulders and I went for a scuttling ride across the casino floor. They took
and said, "Why don't you play some craps with that cheating money of you
don't you ever, ever, come in this casino and play blackjack again." And t
shoulders and dragged me out. I was literally pushed out the front door. W
type of thing.

That kind of thing happens a lot less nowadays, because a lot of

that this isn't the best way to treat the patrons.

There weren't any lawsuits back then. I remember Debbie Hyland.

awhile because she just couldn't take being arrested. Being arrested for m
friends. Who's going to be in the holding cell today?

Were you ever arrested, really?

In Atlantic City, about fifty times.

Fifty times? For what?

 Trespassing.

This was the second trip to Atlantic City?

Yes, many years later.

What was that about? They'd barred you and you went back in,
you?

Right. Just for trespassing. I never had to stay overnight anywhere ... T
have a manicurist in jail.

I think we were getting to disguising yourself.

I was so angered when they dragged me out of the Hilton, I decided to

because the Hilton has this sign, "The Friendliest Casino In The World."
went to New York to a disguise expert. We spent several days fitting m
professional attire. I spent several hundred dollars having people train m
wouldn't need to talk. I went back into the Hilton dressed as a man, with
about an hour and a half. That's as long as the gig lasted, till somebody tap
"We know who you are." I remember my heart was pounding so hard.
disguised as a man! What part of the holding cell are they going to put me
the Hilton that time.

You went back to Europe and now you were a real player.

I always felt like we were slightly behind the big money. The Czechos
just burning every casino. Our group was using Peter's strategy of ginger
score, move on the next day. But the Czechoslovakians' approach was, "W
back here again. Just burn it to the ground." So we were always following
While we were in Europe, they were making a big score as the Samurai Se
So we went in their Samurai wake. We were always right behind their track
 You traveled through Europe and made a bunch of money?

Yes, but it was not a glamorous life. We traveled in a VW bus with se

and-Hyde existence, because you pull up to the casino and now you have to
like you're some high-limit American gambler, but you've just changed in
my underpants on they were probably wet from washing them the night bef
stayed in. We were the cheapest traveling blackjack group there was. No, t
it.

How long were you over there?

Months and months. The only time I ever got to stay put was in Salzbu
for several months.

Did you stay anywhere nice during those months?

I made friends both times. Even though I love to spend money, I kne
was to keep reinvesting it. The investors are the people who make the most
were just a player and you didn't have any investment money, you always c
expenses.

How much did you make?

Hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Wow, that's good.

Yeah, I made a lot of money. I did bottom out at one time after we brok

What do you mean "bottom out"?

The chronology is really hard for me to remember with all the trips to
that I'd built up to about $30,000. After the first trip around Europe I had
money. It was stolen in Spain.

How did it get stolen?

It was just a freak accident. We were in that lovely VW bus and some
asked me for a map. As I was reaching into the back seat, another person
just took my purse with all my money.

My God!

That was a rock-bottom time for me. I went from $70,000 to broke, zer

You must have been sick.

I was suicidal. I have a problem with depression and that took me down

I assume you called the police and the whole bit.

At that time some civil unrest was going on in Spain and we were
barracks. Plus, how do you explain having $70,000 stolen? Thirty grand of
but they were held up for months because it was so suspicious.

So you got that back?

I got that back, but it took six months, because Barclay's had to do th
this was set up. How do you explain to a British bank that, oh, I just happen
sounded so hokey. They did pay it off, but told me never to buy Barclay's
been able to buy a traveler's check since then, because I have that record
stolen from me.

Is this just part of the business? Were you ripped off other times?

I've never known anyone ripped off more than me. Which is why the C
They didn't want to have a young woman on their blackjack team, because
money and she might fall prey to anybody who Wanted to rob her. She'd
several times. Nothing compared to the Spanish monstrosity.

Ever at gunpoint?

At gunpoint behind the Peppermill in Las Vegas. I got out of the

Peppermill, and it was dark. I Was closing my purse and putting my keys
coming right at me and I knew what was going down I took my purse and
They said "Get back in your car." I just kept walking. It's not like I was reas
or b) I can keep walking. It was just instinct that said, If you're going to g
now. You do not want to get back in your car. They went after the purse. Th
I'm not eager to go to Spanish-speaking countries, because it seems lik
the Dominican Republic I had everything stolen at the airport. I was waitin
waiting, and waiting. Well, I finally got the picture. I had no baggage. I thi
times. I once thought about writing a pamphlet, "How to Cope with Loss."

This would be a problem traveling around with all that money.

taking it across borders and declaring it?

I would break out in hives. High-anxiety-type worry. Oh yes. I reme

strapped around my leg. I was coming through customs and I was wearin
clench around your ankle. All of a sudden the $50,000 dropped. I had to go
I broke out in a sweat. They asked me, "How much money are you carry
"OK, go ahead, miss." I was dragging this wooden leg behind me. Yes, m
was a nightmare. I think the most fear I've ever felt in gambling was getting

Let's get back to Europe after you had your money stolen.

We went back to Great Britain and I was in the worst depression of my

to pull myself out of this. Then Peter and I had a terrible disagreement. He
along the side of the road, and we argued about whether to give him a ride.
The fight escalated and he wound up leaving me in the middle of the night
drove off with the vagrant!

I'm imagining driving around Europe in a bus for months, sleep in

clothes in the car. If s not James pond in a tuxedo at the baccarat tabl

No. It's not a glamorous life. It's a really hard life.

How many days a week were you playing? How many hours a da

We played every day. There wasn't any reason for me to be there if I

would open late in the afternoon, at four or five. We'd sit and play until clos

Your whole life was traveling and playing blackjack seven

sightseeing or recreation?

No.

What was playing in Asia like compared to playing in Europe?

By the time I made it to Asia, I was more sophisticated. More adept at

better "hotel" life. So that part was better. But the hygiene situation in As
This is no exaggeration: They would have these petite, beautiful, Asian g
phlegm and spitting on the floor. I was thinking, if I can leave this country
a miracle. The world's largest cockroaches live in Macau. In the middle
marching, and I would run for rescue to one of the other blackjack team me
When I was in Macau, I was again traveling with a blackjack team. I
team. I had a single room, and the guys split up three and two in two ot
night coming in to try to kill the cockroaches for me. I remember Winches
of Raid and spraying and spraying, and the cockroaches just thumbing t
going to need something stronger than that. I started sleeping with the lig
feeling in the world to be lying there and feel bugs crawling on you.

But then you also lived the good life of the big player. What is
roller?

I have to tell you my favorite comp story. It was at Caesars Palace I w

Josephine and this guy that I'd met at a blackjack table. He was coming in
time with me. I had a gorgeous suite at Caesars and we went down to th
who was not a gambler per se, got into the whole idea of living like a
downed $2,600 worth of champagne between the four of us before the res
about our liquor cut-off. It turned out we were allowed $10,000 worth befo
other time, I was really getting into the role.
The one thing I enjoyed in blackjack, as a woman, was shocking people
betting. I remember once on graveyard shift, there were sprinklings of peo
and just assumed I was a hooker. He said, "Come here, sweetheart. Com
handful of thousand-dollar chips, so I put them in his face and said, "I belie
Here's another graveyard-shift story. Some guy was betting between
black chips, while I was there putting my quarter chips out [waiting for a
annoyed, because he viewed me as the anchor man and thought that my pla
He would backtrack the hands to show where I'd hurt him, and he complai
do something about her?" The floorman said, "Well, you can just go to ano
up and went to another table. The count was bad where I was, so I got u
gone to. A lot of people would think it would be easier not to deal wit
gleeful. I knew the time would come when all of a sudden I'd have $1,000
the expression on his face. When the $1,000 bet did go out, you could ju
pride right at the table, totally diminishing his stack.

You hit on something I want to talk about. You said you never pl
A lot of people have talked about the importance of being part of a te
a very solitary game. What are your feelings about that— being on
part of a team?

I've done team play with poker. I don't mean going out and cheating to
It was an experiment. We tried it and it was a gigantic flopperoonie. I would
The fluctuations are just devastating. The fluctuations in poker are much les
 As a poker player, do you miss having the team camaraderie?

I guess not, because I never think about it. But poker is very
differentiation between the suffering. I've felt pain in taking blackj
mathematically rote, there aren't any mistakes. In blackjack I was used t
formula. You always come away saying, I did the best I could. I knew w
them. I lost. So there wasn't the pain of thinking, I've made an error.
In poker, you always come out of a session saying, I think I made an
hand you played. It turns into a different kind of pain when you lose. It g
mathematical formula. So if you're the type of person who doesn't recove
big lesson to learn [how to recover quickly] before you get any better. Ther
In going from being a hotshot blackjack player to the world of Poker, I
in my personality. I had to realize that if I didn't overcome them, I would
me years to become a winning player.

Really? Years?

Right, because there were so many of these stumbling blocks for me.

Were you keeping records?

I've kept records for every single day I've played poker for twelve years

How long did it actually take before you were a winning player?

Three years.

You didn't give up? That's amazing fortitude. After one year, afte
cut out for this.

I don't give up on bad romantic relationships either. On the other ha

good you can say about yourself when you become so pit bullish that you
that maybe you should give up.
 But now you're quite successful.

Of course, starting out with such a large bankroll as a cushion helped.

How did blackjack end?

It was complete battle fatigue. I didn't want to meet one more shift bo
say to me, "You can make so much more money playing blackjack. Don't
coming home, eating at the same place every day, and running errands. I d
because I've been able to see so many places in the world and would ra
whole time.

After blackjack, you played slot machines. How did that come ab

Slot machines were the grimiest, dirtiest, hardest work I've ever done
you can do. I can't take credit for any of this. Someone else introduce
situations arise and die very quickly. You have to take advantage of a situa
going to last. At that point there was money to be made in slots. Even thoug
staying up for twenty-four hours at a time, stretching myself out, having
forced to trust other people who were probably stealing left and right. I de
really hard again. I'd worked hard playing blackjack going through Europe.
vacation was over it was time to make money again. I had someone instr
play. We had a team of slot players. Eventually, I formed my own geriatric

These were little old ladies on Social Security you hired to pull t

And men. The prerequisite to getting a job on my slot team was you
They didn't come under suspicion from the casino the way other profession

Surely not the profile. Most people don't realize you can actu
machines.
 These were progressive slot machines linked to one meter. The meter
you would have a mathematical overlay. That meant the amount of money
to put in the machine was going to be less than what the jackpot would pay

So you had these little old men and ladies that you hired to pull t

They were like, what do you call those things? Weebils? Weebils Gob
know how old people go from side to side? I was always helping them, "Yo
these people after I was no longer allowed to play. The idea of getting bar
ludicrous. But I got barred from playing slot machines.

You would think that the casino would love to have you.

I know, because they can only make more money, and more money, an
play devil's advocate I'd say their reasoning was, if the jackpot was going to
someone who would spend that jackpot in the same casino. If it was hit by
case, for example—it was going to be spent at Nordstrom's.
That was pretty short-lived. But it was brutal because if you had a ban
two of my geriatrics on it, I was afraid they were going to die before the
racking. The last thing I ever wanted to do was leave a machine before th
the jackpot wouldn't hit for forty hours. You'd have to exchange players, a
been any cheating done by the casino. It was an expensive venture. Th
paperwork—it was a nightmare. There are lots of people who still do it.

Were you playing video poker as well, or was it all progressive s

No, it was all three-reel mechanical slots. Once they brought electron
situation. I was into a new venue by then. I was tired of having black hands

I hear some of the big-time poker players will venture off on a bi

There's a nasty story about that. It was down at the Horseshoe, and it
and it lasted about five months. They put hundreds of thousands of dollars
did hit and I think they did end up making a little profit on it, but it really w

They had to have somebody on the machine twenty-four hours a d

Right, and they watched their life savings being emptied into a slot ma
of gambling. It was so much stress and so much hard work, only to meet
tunnel.

What was the IRS like?

First, we had to call our employees independent contractors, which m

were responsible at the end of the year to file with the IRS. No matter
returns for them, or said you must do such and such, because they were alw
owed, they would somehow fudge it up. So I had all these people coming b
patching and taking care of things for years afterwards.

Was the money worth it? What kind of money could you make pl

If I was doing it, I must have thought the money was worth it.

What does that mean, six figures a year, seven figures?

I think there were a couple six-figure years. Just barely, a couple of bac

That's not a bad living. There are a lot of people reading this bo
to pack their bags and move to Las Vegas and start playing slot mach

Those machines don't exist anymore. Video poker is the thing now.
around. And there are solitary players out there playing them, but I don't th
in existence.

While you were playing the slots you were living in Vegas and st
 Yes. The type of poker I was playing was completely social poker. I
because the stakes, even though they were high for poker, were so low co
blackjack.

When you started playing poker did you go to Gambler's Book C

I had the good fortune of meeting someone whom I consider to be the

He had a mentor who also was a great 7-card stud teacher.

Who was that?

David Heyden, and his teacher was Rick Greider.

How did you meet Dave Heyden?

I had just gotten back from my slot play and I had this curiosity abou
was known as "The Best." I was playing recreationally at Caesars Palac
played. His guru-like manner fascinated me, and he was going to speak at
with a friend. We call what happened the "world's greatest gambling renege
We were sitting there before the lecture began, and I was trying to coa
he'd liked for over a year. He said, "You don't understand what it's like for
be like you asking Dave Heyden out in front of these four hundred peo
Heyden out in front of all these people, will you ask Lily out?" Cut to the
Even though I have a lot of fearlessness, I was becoming paralyzed at the id

Now you know what men go through.

I thought, how ridiculous that I'm even thinking this. But I felt like I'd b
any dare. I remember putting my hand up a tiny little bit and immediately
the back of the room." I stood up, and I remember my legs shaking, and
"Could you give me the exact odds on my chances of getting a date with y
This was on video and when we saw it later it was like there was an immed
blind as a bat and couldn't see me in the back of the room, his whole demea
in a psychic connection. There were hands up all over the room and he ca
living together.

How did he answer the question?

He gave it a nerd answer that I loved. He did a kind of boyish "Hah

yearning for some kind of titillation." And everybody started laughing and
Which I didn't do because I ...

Was petrified with fear?

No, actually the opposite. I think I was over-confident. I thought, of cou

assumed that he could see me. I'm very visible when I'm in a poker room.
one of the few women in the poker room playing large amounts of mone
think, well, let him get in touch with me—which he didn't do! I said, How
he not want to get in touch with me? Later, at the hot dog stand at Caesars
"I'm really surprised you never got in touch with me." He was standing th
head Was just throbbing, and he said, "It was you who asked that question?
At the time I met him I was squandering the money I made at blackjack
some of the best people in the world, just because it was so much fun. I didn

But you had records to show how much you were losing per hour.

Yes, but I sure was having fun. You know, "I lost $10,000 today but
fun day!" All of a sudden I had the great fortune of being with the world's g

How quickly did you start winning after that?

Not very quickly. You can teach someone how to play a particular han
many variations of the same situation that can occur and so many levels of
in. I had another big stumbling block. I was having confrontations with ot
was just me against the house. I remember always being very stoic during a
had personalities. And the personalities ranged from racist scumbag to snak
in a world where integrity was valued, and now I was in a world where I d
the word.

Is that true? Do you find poker players and blackjack players

breed?

Yes. Somehow I think poker players revere the ability to con someone
of honor to them. The values are completely flip-flopped.

What was that like, going from blackjack, where people are very
world of...

It was disgusting. You take more showers. I used to be so proud of w

began the day feeling contempt for the world I was living in. I was espe
players treated the dealers. I was having monumental problems with p
situation that occurred at the table on the dealer. They would say horrible
gets shot on the freeway tonight in a drive-by." Ox, "Why don't you go b
belong?" There are many Asian dealers. Just disgusting filthy things.
I always confronted the situation as if something I could say would ma
my poker. I was always getting into arguments with other people. It was a
myself on the back saying it's because I'm such a good person that I'm havin
I took private lessons from Rick Greider, and he said, "You'd better t
having these problems. Do you really think you'll ever make a difference w
their own racial bias?" When I answered no, he asked why I kept doing it
would be to approach the dealer away from the table afterward and say, "
that if you heard someone make a racial remark it was your duty, if things
this world, to stop that person and indicate that this is not acceptable. B
concentration and focus on poker. I had to make a giant compromise.
nauseating, I try to keep myself calm, because I don't have the ability to do
That was only one hurdle I had to get over. It was just hurdle after hurd
see myself approaching. God, I just made it over that hurdle and now loo
becoming manic when I lost. It was so different from the way anyone else
more entertaining; it was a coping mechanism for me. It was manic behavi
lost for a long time, because I couldn't control my mania at the table.

It sounds like becoming a winning player is all about psychology

For me it was psychology. It was fighting a battle. My own internal b

shot to ever become a winning poker player. He thought my personality ty
that poker calls for. He strongly suggested, "Don't keep going. It will break
credit for perseverance, because it was breaking my heart.

Was there ever an epiphany? Did you wake up one day and say "I

The epiphany came right after my private lessons with Rick Greider.

Tell me about Rick Greider.

He was Dave Heyden's mentor and he didn't let me delude myself abo
actions at the table. He was able to look at my records and point out abnorm
because of fluctuations, you can be a competent player and still lose for a y
blackjack, the fluctuations in poker are still significant—you could drive yo

Really? You could lose for a year? Poker players play a lot of hours

Right, maybe 1,500 hours a year. David Heyden and Jeff Sandow are
know. Late in their careers, after twenty years, they each had losing ye
According to an expert I rely on, the cards may not break even throughout
may not be enough. If people really understood what fluctuation means in p
it. That's why you have to hope you get lucky. If you take two people of
good variation and the other a bad one. At the end of the year, one could be
$100,00U. Facing that fact is scary.

What's the longest losing streak you've had?

If I consulted my records I could be exact. But I'd guess five month. I d

23 sessions, which was mind numbing. I need a drink just thinking about it.

What records do you keep?

Type of game played, how long I played, result, and any situation t
unusual. Like, if I thought someone was cheating.

Or if someone had a tell?

Those are separate records I keep. But now, after doing this for t
discovered that my results were very shaky for four days every month. I sai
ten years ago?"

Do you take those days off?

I play very low limits. I become very aware of where my emotional stat

That's fascinating.

It's not fascinating, it's infuriating. I'm not saying this is true for all w
true for me. And being a feminist, I don't want to say now we can never h
never have me as a woman president, because I'd blow something up.

What about cheating? Have you run into cheating either at poker
matter?

I've navigated through twenty years being pretty naive. I know in Fra
idea after you go through several shoes and the count never comes down. M
that the reason you have a stop-loss is that if you're being cheated, they wo
They'll have to do it over a series of sit-downs with you. This was really gre

stop-loss—A predetermined stopping point designed to limit losses.

 Do you think there's much cheating going on in the poker rooms?

Not at the level that I play. I play $75-$150 or $150-$300.1 think the ch
really high-limit games. I can't talk as an expert on this, but that's what I've
it, I'd become so neurotically paranoid that I don't think I'd sit down. I'm
attention to it the way I should, but somehow I still overcome it. Than
paranoid.

You're being cheated and you're able to overcome it? You must b
trouble stepping up in stakes, then going back down?

I started at a high level.

A high level is what?

I played $75-$150, because I had so much money.

It's nice to be rich, isn't it?

It was so much fun playing with players like Danny Robeson and Eric D

So you were serious when you said you'd lose $10,000 in a day?

I was serious. I went backwards and had to swallow a lot of ego wh

seriously. I'd lost over half bankroll just screwing around. I swallowed my
proved myself the way a rational person would. I went down to $15-$30.
suggestion. It's just common sense. You prove yourself at one limit, then
was back into the $75-$150.
At the poker table, it's important to be the controlling force. It's very ha
had this capability. Because of my personality, I'm able to accomplish it wh
I could always be the controlling force— until I hit the $75-$150. Then I w
waiting for good cards.
 Was that because the level of the other players was so much bet te

Even really terrible players at that level still had the savvy to bet margin
there were bets I was having to pay off that I didn't have to pay off at the
they're bad, are usually aggressive at the higher limits. You'd rather be with
You just have to give up all ego, which is another reason I've stayed in
skill level are on the rails now. They can't get over themselves. Of course
down limits, there's going to be whispering, gossiping, full of happiness tha
couple of days, then who cares? I'm still in action and they're on the rail.
worlds, people feel personal success watching someone else's failure. It ma

on the rails — Broke. Refers to players with no money who lean on th

watch the games. They're also called "rail birds."

So when you got to the $75-$150 level, you couldn't control the g

Right.

Still? To this day?

I've finally gotten it back. But now, because of where I'm staying it has

What do you mean?

The game no longer exists at Hollywood Park. They just don't deal it a
away and the game's disappeared.

That's the nature of the poker world, isn't it? This year it's here
else?

But now I'm beginning to tackle a whole different venue of poker an

more time. I'm starting to learn hold 'em. It's a whole different game. The
are different. The information provided is different. Again, right befor
playing regularly at Hollywood Park, $40-$80 stud, I was the best. There
security, and so little pain in losing because I always left the table, no matte
the best. Now I'm back in a game where I look around and go, oh no, I coul

So what are you playing, $20-$40 hold 'em?

Oh no, $40-$80.

Not learning your lesson and starting lower?

No, not learning my lesson.

Are you going to take private lessons?

I've taken private lessons.

From whom?

Tom McEvoy. [A well-known poker professional, author of Tou

Championship No-Limit & Pot-Limit Hold 'Em, Championship Stud, and C
another advantage of being a woman. People are more willing to give up in
to exchange, too. If I give up a little about 7-card stud, I can get somebody
up a little bit to me. Some people from my past are generous with hold 'em
admits that anyone else can play. It takes something away from them to a
not that way at all.

Do you play tournaments?

I don't like tournaments. I don't like the feeling of running out of money
short-stacked. It's like becoming impotent.

short-stack — Refers to players with a small number of chips, a disadva

 Isn't there a big difference between tournament play and regula
Are there people that are good tournament players that are not go
versa?

I don't know about the vice versa. I can only comment on the many t
ring game and are a complete joke. They lose all their tournament winning
the information to discern if that's true or not. There are certain skills, b
tournament play: mainly to scrunch up and become really tight in the be
wait, wait. Plus, you have to have a huge amount of stamina to play tournam
down after about six-and-a-half hours. At the end of a tournament I'm alw
I've played tournaments, and being at the final table is an incredible adrena
them so popular. There's a lot of recognition.

My understanding is that the ring games at the tournaments are p

Most people, if they understood the amount of money they could

element of playing a tournament versus what they could win in the side g
Plus, now the IRS is taking from the winnings of tournaments and I'm not
anymore.

Have you thought of going to tournaments just to play in the ring

I did that recently and I enjoyed myself. But it's quite a zoo atmosphere
Whenever you go to a new casino there's a whole period of adapting to
special attention I get by going to the same place every day, being a big fish

So it's not really about extracting the maximum amount of mone

you play only six hours a day?

Six-and-a-half hours is probably what I play a day. The reason I don't

hundred-pound dogs and they're my children. I don't trust a lot of people to
them, and they're not willing to travel with me, or so they tell me.
 You said that being a woman was a big negative in blackjack. W

Huge positive! Especially in my particular situation right now. I'm sp

not quite sure if it's applicable to Vegas—but I know my biggest earn is in
cultures that come together daily to play. I'm really skirting the issue. I'm
Middle Eastern people here.

Middle Eastern, and I would think there are a lot of Asian play ers

A lot of Asians, too. But it's particularly the Middle Eastern male per
most money from. You take someone who grew up in a culture where wom
men. Women have to wear veils. They can't drive. In the Arab world they
rape. It's a really grotesque situation. But you take that male's mindset, br
woman is supposed to be walking behind me, and now she's check-
temperaments too, and you put that combination together and they're almos
where it's obvious that they should.

check-raise — A poker tactic that entails first checking, then, when a

known as "sandbagging," it's considered (by beginners) to be a hostile action

I would think my win rate is more than someone else's playing the id
five percent more. A lot of my friends shake their heads and say, "You're so
have to take advantage of what your particular femaleness is. For insta
respected professional woman player] is demure. She's aggressive m a quie
the most money.
My style is so confrontational and my personality is so sharp and caust
They constantly root against me, even when they're not in a hand. It tak
because I have people cheer against me all the time. They yell, "Draw out!
just grown used to it.
Poker has brought about changes in my personality. I'm relaxed. Whe
verbally, I come back so quickly, making them the object of the ridicule,
my authority at the table. I don't know, in some cases, how they look at me
just a eunuch that must be destroyed.
 I know that I don't see women getting better in poker. Ten years ago I u
who could eke out a small win rate; they had cool temperaments. Now I'm
that are coming out of their mouths. They're adopting more male-like beha
They just don't understand fluctuation, as most poker players don't. The
behavior that I just hate to see women display.

But all poker players seem to display that.

Right. I just don't want women to do it. I don't want them to be sup
standard. Please don't ask for a deck change or a seat change [for superstit
that.

So why gamble? Why do what you do for a living?

I write as a hobby. Sometimes after a losing session, I write out cer

reviewing some of what I'd written the other day. Within a year there were
experiences. I woke up with nightmares. I thought, "Why am I subjecting
years old on the inside. Why do I keep doing it?"
When you've wanted to do something since you were knee-high and y
becomes habit. I always thought of poker as the card game to make money
Clue or Scrabble or anything like that. I feel like when I open up a hand of
Hello there!

I know the feeling.

I've always remarked that most women don't gravitate to it. It's a very
reasons more women don't play poker. First of all, I think women equate c
hundred dollars into the pot in one round, it's an investment to me and I e
women put in four hundred dollars and think, that could buy something n
don't have the ability to separate the two. We're a more protective gender. W
Also, to be really good, you can't have compassion at the table. Or if y
was a player who had thirty dollars in chips in front of him. He was sittin
and he said, "My wife is going to leave me. She said that if I came out to
leave me. I've got a two-year-old child. I can't even buy groceries. Thi
thought, this is going to make it harder taking that last thirty dollars. B
somebody else.
That was another thing I had to overcome when I was first playing: fe
room. There isn't enough earn-per-hour to have sympathy for anyone you
playing with my friends. It's another hurdle I have to go over. And it's the
stand to lose to my friends.

You're right. That's the opposite of what I thought.

I cannot bear it! There's nothing that infuses me with anger more quick
from me. I have to walk away from the table to calm down, to shed th
forgiving, which I don't think I would be in return. I'm always calling them
such and such.
I asked a friend who is very much into yoga and spiritualism "What
there's something about each hand that presents itself as a problem to wo
hand fascinated her. She said that she's addicted to that process. People t
lottery, I'd still come in and play poker. I probably would.

Do you worry in general about carrying around so much money?

In California there have been a lot of terrible situations. There aren't tha
I'd say there are five that are very visible. Two of them were followed h
burned in her trunk. The other was shot through the head; now she's not eve
I play higher than they did. It was just dumb luck that it wasn't me
perpetrators] were caught. He drove me to the casino and drove me home
not taking the money home. You leave it on deposit in the casino. The w
didn't have any money on them at all.

As far as gamblers in general, who are the people that stick out
best?

David Hey den and Danny Robeson.

 How good is Danny Robeson?

He's a genius. He can talk people into calling when he wants them to.
when he doesn't want them to. It's just innate genius the way he controls th
Weaver," because he interweaves everybody's personalities. There is no o
brain-Even David says that Danny is the best 7-card stud player.
I admire people who can balance taking a risk with staying in control. I
Karas won millions, but he always ends up a railbird. [The story of Archie
is detailed in the Chip Reese interview.]
Stu Ungar [see "Walters Notes"] was the same way. He was fearless
poker table, it's pretty hard to deal with. It's hard to overcome an oppone
there has to be some limit to it. There has to be something to control it. It's
I admire the player with the fewest leaks; someone who approach
standpoint. That's why I admire David Heyden. Nobody approaches th
physically readies himself through meditation and exercise, as if he's goin
players that you can't call in the middle of the night and say, "Hey, there's a
doesn't run into a game without physical and mental preparation.

leak—A weakness in a player's game or abilities.

Players like Huck Seed—with his eating habits and physical prowess
life. [Read more about Huck Seed in the Mike Svobodny interview.] Every
is designed to make themselves better inside the game. I really admire that.
An article in Card Player about me said: "She doesn't have the norma
betting, or going to the crap table." The reason I'm able to withstand large
tolerance for pain. It keeps pushing me into the next day. Then some kind
place, and the next day I'm back to myself and I want to go back there and p

You play five days a week?

Yes, five days.

 What do you do on your days off?

Read, watch movies, pet the dogs, shop. I spend a lot of money in the
time to get to the masseuse, the hairdresser, the manicurist, the chiropracto
doing with my time off, spending money. You think it's easy to show up in

Do you think that men can work [take advantage of] women play e
men?

I've only met one man, and this was a long time ago, that had the capab
I remember going away thinking, I fell victim to him because he knew
interesting that he had that ability and that I was led astray in a poker gam
else try. Sometimes people hit on a weakness by accident. Anything that
consider a weakness. Nothing anyone has ever said about me being female
me.

My thought wouldn't be to upset you, it would be to flatter you.

I'm glad I don't play poker with you; I would be susceptible to flattery.
animals, that's so disgusting to me that I get physically ill. I get up from the

Do you think poker players are a healthy group? Emotionally hea

Not at all. I sometimes believe that I'll have to be single forever. Poke
have to come home and manage children or a husband or somebody else
know what would be left over to give them. I'm not surprised that many
When you go home, you need time to heal. You don't need anyone making
choose to go into this as a profession ... some part of their behavior co
people control it and make money, but there's a compulsion behind all peop
I saw a play about poker recently, and there was a comment about com
my seat. The guy was talking about being a professional poker player and s
as suckers." Then another guy responded,"... You're really looking at a refle
compulsive character here, because you continue to do this for a living."
 Have you read many books on poker?

Oh yes. It's like I sleep with David Sklansky—his book that is. He's th
Sklansky is the author of some of the best known and respected books abo
Poker, and Hold 'Em Poker For Advanced Players, with Mason Malmuth.
comes up with original ways of looking at the game. For instance, I once a
flush is more intimidating than another color flush? That is, if I have ace, k
do you think an opponent is more likely to fold than if I have diamonds, be
look at?" He said he'd thought of that. [Mike Caro is known as "The Mad
The Book of Tells, Caro on Gambling, and many other books on poker.]

board — The upcards in 7-card stud or the community cards in hold 'em

Do you have any rules about when you quit for the day? Like if
hands?

David Heyden told me you have to make all your decisions before you
have to decide under emotional duress to keep playing or not. I use a stop-l

Is it a certain number of hours, a certain amount of money, or wh

It's a certain amount of money or a certain number of hours if losing. I

losing.

But you might if you're winning?

Yes, if I'm winning I'll sit there until I fall out of the chair.

Really? You mentioned that after six-and-a-half hours you're not

Winning gives me so much more power. The adrenaline is greater You

winning, so you have to take advantage of every moment. Your image at
rate probably doubles while you're sitting there with a massive pile of ch
can steal ante after ante. You're feeling great and omnipotent. That's whe
never have a cap on how much I win.
When I sit down at the poker table, I want people to say, "I'm used to l
that expectation. You always want them to remember the image of you be
hard to maintain that image when you're short-stacked. If they're seeing y
time to leave. Don't leave that imprint on their memory system. When some
I say, "I've never lost. Isn't that incredible? I'm just so lucky. I never lose!
am special. You have no shot against me." They become whipped and that
want them to see me bleeding.

So you'll sit there twenty hours if you're winning. At some point

and sleep?

It comes down to I have to go home and feed the dogs. If I get up say $
of it. That makes me snarling mad, too.

What about your regimen?

Before I go to play, I don't engage in any other activity besides some w

phone calls. I don't socialize I don't plan any social event afterward. I don't
my mind to stay as peaceful and restful as possible. I go to bed at exactly
up at exactly the same time every morning. People don't equate this with a p
functions more clearly when I behave this way. I don't drink alcohol the n
there are many mental things I do in the morning. There's a computer c
retention level is. What my patience level is. What my focus level is.

Which card game do you play?

Hearts. I play just to make a quick observation of how I'm thinking. W

very aware of how irritated I am at other drivers. I observe myself. The cal
If I'm driving like a maniac, if the light turns yellow and I'm rushing throu
state today.
 Do you still play?

I play lower. I make a mental note to watch what's going on with m

granted. I don't want a $5,000 loss because I'm in a terrible frame of mind.
frame of mind and you don't even realize it. You feel happy and everything
to the crunch of actually having to analyze a particular situation, you're not

How hard do you think it is to teach someone to play? If you too

would it be to make him a winning player?

Incredibly hard.

Really? Even at low levels?

Even at low levels. I'm attempting to do it now and it's very very ha
There are so many parts to being a winning poker player that can't be taug
so high that the best person in the world may not be able to win. You have
chance to survive the rake.

Do you own any poker software?

I own the Wilson Turbo Texas Hold 'Em, and Mike Caro's Poker Pro
while I was learning hold 'em. I use Mike Caro's a lot.

Do you think these programs have really changed the game?

These, and the books, have changed the game. But when it comes dow
the table who have all read and understood the books, all of the same i
character.

Character?
 You have to put your mistakes behind you quickly, because another ha
hang onto the past don't have any future in this game. Who has the di
stability? Character, that's the bottom line.

Hulbert Notes

1—Standard Deviation
Standard deviation, or "SD," is a statistical measure of the spread of va
layman's terms, a measure of the boundaries of good and bad luck. Suppo
know that, on average, you should get 200 heads and 200 tails. But you're
each. Standard deviation tells us how far off you could land in either dire
likely to flip heads between 180 and 220 times (a range of +/-2 standard d
deviation to determine how bad (or good) things can be expected to get wh
the gambler is a tails bettor and loses to 250 heads out of 400, standard d
honesty of the coin, or the flipper.

2—Fluctuation
To fluctuate means to rise and fall like the waves, which is exactly wha
when he's betting with an advantage. When a gambler hits a losing streak
calculated his advantage correctly. Standard deviation tells him wheth
reasonable range. Negative fluctuation (excessive losses) is one of the pr
rate among prospective professional gamblers. Positive fluctuation is often
layman's term "good luck."

3—The Atlantic City Counter Convention

Atlantic City's first casino, Resorts International, opened to the publ
games were (and still are) mandated by the New Jersey Casino Control C
1979, unwittingly rendered the blackjack tables at Resorts the best in the w
surrender" rule imposed by the Control Commission gave a perfect ba
advantage off the top.
But that wasn't what brought the counters. The Control Commission als
effective counter-measures against card counters by mandating that dealers
the shoe (before shuffling) and disallowing casinos from barring card cou
vulnerable to a frontal assault by the world's best counters.
Counters and teams came from far and wide to take advantage of th
When the casino doors opened each day, there was a mad dash to get a
forming lines five deep. The players termed it the "Counter Convention" an
Eventually, the Casino Control Commission changed the rules, but
center of the blackjack universe. The book Two Books On Blackjack, by K
Experiment and the bankroll that Cathy Hulbert was involved in.

4—Blackjack Point Counts

A card-counting system requires the use of a point count. All point cou
keep track of the ratio of high cards to low cards. However, there are many
some of the better known point counts: High-Low, Hi-Opt 1, Hi-Opt 2, K-
Count, Ten Count, Thorp Ultimate, Uston Advanced Point Count, Wong
favored, the most popular counts used today are the High-Low and the K-O

ALAN WOODS

A big winner with a big bankroll, Alan Woods bets millions the way t
his first million shorting the Hong Kong stock market in 1987. He lost
Japanese market. In 1994, he picked up $8 million from bets on World
million on a single game. This is a man who's not afraid of risk.
In his gambling career, Alan has been a world-class bridge player
blackjack player, and a market speculator. But it's betting the horses that m
gamblers in history. His two-story penthouse atop one of Hong Kong's m
looks across the harbor to Kowloon, the New Territories, and into China
one of Hong Kong's two racetracks, where Alan has won more than $
computer model to handicap the races.
Alan grew up in Murwillumbah, Australia, a small town on the nort
After a brief stint in the actuarial department of a Melbourne insurance
decision. He had three options: He could make $5 an hour as a profession
and go to Work on the newly opened futures exchange, or try to make it a
Blackjack won out.
After five or six years of traveling the world as a card counter, he and
to bet the horses. They believed that a computer program designed to mod
big advantage. They were right.
The way Alan and his team play the horses doesn't look at all like gam
which horse wins or loses. Alan often doesn't even watch the race. It's all
computer screen.
Still active in the stock market, at one point during our interview he gla
set up in his living room and smiled: "I might be losing half a million dollar

When did you start gambling?

You jump right in, don't you? My first experiences were at age seve
holidays from University. I played a card game called solo with my parents
good gambling game.

So you were playing for money with your parents?

Yes, but very small money, although my sister would often cry if she lo
sister lost playing poker or solo, she would end up in tears.

Were you always a game player?

Not really. I'd played chess prior to this, but on relatively few occasions
would never have heard of bridge, for example. Now Monopoly I'd prob
much. Age seventeen was probably my introduction to games.

Was blackjack the first game you looked at and thought, "I can m

I won playing poker long before I knew about blackjack. Both at U

eventually moved to work, played poker with friends, and I kept track of m

When you started playing poker and winning, did you go get any
you try to improve in any way, or did you just figure you had the gam

I didn't know books on such subjects existed. It wouldn't have occur

would write books about how to play poker. I was very naive.

Well, you were from a small town in Australia.

By this time I was in Sydney and other places, but I don't think I w
anything. If I went into a bookstore, I'd look at the fiction. But even if I
probably wouldn't have been anything worthwhile there. A lot of the p
choice, wildcard rubbish. I used to play bingo with a couple of friends i
where I lived. We usually won at that—I think because most of the other p
would miss the numbers. Despite the house rake of fifty percent, these play
we might have actually had an advantage there.
I'd also gotten involved in horses by this time. For a brief period I was
more on them than I should have. I don't remember paying horses much
One of Australia's top-class races was on with two very good horses in it, c
horse that was a mudlark, and it was pissing down rain and muddy.

Mudlark?

A mudlark likes to run in the mud; wet tracks. So I bet this one
occurrence, because it won. It's always a bad thing, I think, when your first
applies to your first attempt at any gambling game, whether you're playing
lose, you tend not to get addicted, whereas if you win, addiction can set in
years after that without having much idea what I was doing, virtually non
dollars and then I just quit. I probably didn't have a single bet on the hors
years.

What was your degree in?

I spent four years at University without getting a degree. Most of th

lectures. More often than not, I didn't turn up for the exams. I was studying
 And you had a facility for math?

Yes.

So when you got out, what did you do?

Well, eventually I started working for an insurance company while stud

seventy percent of that before my motivation disappeared.

When did you start playing blackjack?

A casino opened up in Hobart, Tasmania, the little island off the bot
latter half of 1972. By 1973 the state government insisted that the casino hi
the house percentages at all the games, and they chose my firm. One of my
the managing director. Of course, the calculations were incredibly simple f
My friend must have spent three months with a hand calculator, calcula
blackjack, which he got right—surprising, given that many other people
same time, and getting it wrong.
Anyway, at the time there were a couple of Canadian students at one of
this time I was playing bridge- They claimed you could beat the game of
can't. The house advantage is point-seven percent. My friend has done
described card counting to me. I thought, "This sounds plausible."
Fairly soon after, ten of us flew to the casino for a weekend. This w
flying away somewhere for the weekend. Ten of us took five hundred
counting. We each won about five hundred dollars, while the others lost a
"this card counting really works."

Did you have a book? How did you know how to count?

The Canadian guys had a book, but I don't remember ever seeing i
strategy table photocopied out of it.
 So they told you that 2s through 6s are plus one, tens and aces a
strategy... bet more when the count is plus?

Yes.

And you doubled your bankroll?

Yes. Anyway, a few months after that the Australian National Bridge C
Hobart. Four of us agreed to form a joint bankroll of $6,000 [to play black
got there a few days before I did. By the time I got there, they'd won some
That Was pretty good. I started playing and losing, and they decided to disb
is no good." Now surprisingly, the other three were all very good bridge p
assume that they wouldn't have been excellent blackjack players, but they
It Was reasonably obvious that it was a good way to make money, but for s

joint bankroll—When two or more players combine their bankrolls into

more money and thus earn more.

Were you still working?

Yes. From 1975 to 19791 I promised my wife that I wouldn't go away p

She didn't like me leaving her alone with two children. I might not have ke
that period I had absolutely no money, anyway. I was always in debt becau
the stock market.
By the time I ended up not having a job, I had $6,000 in savings. What
in the stock market, virtually all of it in two companies. One of them was
which would sell at a discount to its asset value. In fact the discount was
invested in shares with a net-asset value of one dollar, I would buy them a
Later, the company was taken over and I ended up being worth $120,000.
years, I suddenly ended up with this windfall.
By 19791 hadn't been working for a year. My wife left me and I had th
getting out of Melbourne and away from the vicinity of my wife. I could be
in Sydney playing rubber bridge, and make maybe five bucks an hour. O
exchange, which had just started up in Sydney. But that might have been n
seemed too much like normal work. The third option was to go to Hobart an
In retrospect, had I gone to Sydney and traded futures, I might have en
would have been good at that. But I went to Hobart in May 1979. I spen
casino every day, from about midday until midnight. It was my social
wouldn't necessarily spend all that time playing blackjack. I could end up g
I made about $16,000 in that four months.

You still hadn't read a book? Did you know anything about Kelly

Yes. I'm sure I had Beat the Dealer by then. [ Beat the Dealer, by Edw
thorough presentation of a mathematically based card-counting system and
the technique, and the game of blackjack in general.] Would I have been
Probably yes. When I went to the States, I'm sure I was playing Hi-Opt 2 [
think someone just gave me the system.

Who gave it to you? Someone you met there in the casino? Some o

I don't know. I've got no memory of where I got it. But I'm sure I was p
aces, because that's what I was doing when I first ended up in the States. I w
simple High-Low count maybe in late '80 or '81.
In December of 19791 headed off to Vegas with the friend who had o
the consulting actuaries.

So you won $16,000 and set off for Vegas. Was the plan to s
making money or were you just going for a set amount of time?

My friend was going for a set amount of time. My plans were more o
and Will] fairly early on there. It was coincidence. We were playing at the
a counter before I recognized him as one. I hadn't been in Vegas long, so
were around the place, or how likely I was to run into one. Then I was pl
[Peter] was playing at the same table, and he approached me away from the
In January '79, Atlantic City opened up a free go for card counters. U
they weren't allowed to bar card counters for an indefinite period—which
weeks. The casinos told the state that they were losing X million dollars
bullshit. But anyway, by the time we went to Atlantic City I think I had
["Cathy" is Cathy Hulbert]

So while playing you would realize that there was another card
would meet each other away from the tables and strike up these friend

Yes.

Okay, so you went to Atlantic City and put together a team?

Well, Peter had put together the team.

Was that the famous Ken Uston team?

No, Peter and Ken Uston had fallen out by that point in time. Uston's bo
Out of a $100,000 bankroll I might have had twenty or twenty-five thou
had fifty or sixty thousand. How much did we make in those two weeks? I g

Was there some point at which you thought, "Holy cow, I can m
was that a slow process?

I'm sure before I went to Vegas I anticipated never having to get a

Aus$250,000, figuring that would be enough to retire on. I probably had th
to Australia, so it took six months.
After Atlantic City, one of my teammates, Jay, and I went back to La
Europe and teamed up with a couple of English card counters. Then Peter
and me to go there and team up with him. By this time Jay and I had been
was the notional team leader, and had eighty percent of the investment.
called, we said, "Okay, but we're on a team with these guys Fred and Red,
Cathy and Peter weren't so keen on this idea. Maybe they regarded [Jay and
Peter tested our blackjack play. We had to sit down as they flicked car
play the right strategy at the right count, and bet exactly the right amount.
theory was that if I had it approximately right, it was okay.

Had you had any extended losing streaks up till then? It doesn't s

Certainly nothing serious. During the days in Hobart I might have lost
would have regarded as very serious at the time. In the light of exper
fluctuations I took on horses or stock markets or blackjack teams—the fluc
With some difficulty we persuaded Cathy and Peter to accept Fred and
Jay and me. Then the four of us went off to Europe. We hadn't been in Eu
someone to go explore Asia. Jay and I were chosen for this exploration, an
Europe, the two of us were off to Asia.
Peter told us that somewhere in Asia we might run into this guy Ti
signals to use in case we do. Sure enough, the first time Jay and I w
[Indonesia], before we got even ten feet into the casino, this guy Tip stood
meet him in the bathroom. Some Westerner walks into this casino in Jakar
a card counter. I must have looked professional.

Was it an illegal casino?

The casinos there may have been semi-legal. They got closed down
cheated in that first casino; it was the main one in the middle of Jakarta. W
he told me they were cheating, but Peter had said, "Don't believe this guy
son-of-a-bitch you'll ever come across." So I sat down and played anyway.

So what could he have said to you: "They're cheating but I'm her

I'm really not sure that he knew at that point how they were cheating;
in Korea how they did it. There were girls stationed next to the dealer. The
the shoe, which had to be pushed up in order to pull the next card out. W
also pushed up the next card so the girl could see it and tell them what
pulling the known card down into their hand or dealing it to you. If you're
ten saved up there, they can bust your hand with it.
 How much did you guys lose?

We lost $40,000 in about four days. Peter was going berserk by this t
playing. Stanford Wong was there as well [see "Hyland Notes," Chapter 3]
us, so it was like a card counter's convention. He said he could see nothi
days he was the god of counters. His writings were widespread and general

When you went to Asia, do you remember how much cash y

worried about carrying large amounts of cash?

Yes, very worried. I was carrying $60,000, $40,000 of it in traveler

quickly lost the $40,000, but we were already playing at the other casin
$40,000 back in four days at the other casino, which was very fortuitous.
Carrying that money around is one of the craziest things I ever did. A
controls. I got in the habit of not declaring the money because of the Amer
think of a better word than brainwashed. They were so habituated to n
[reporting] limits on cash in the United States. They didn't want the govern
had. Anyway, for me, as an Australian, the situation was entirely differe
what I had going into or out of the States, or any other country. Or I should
wire it in and out instead of carrying cash.
I eventually did this years later when I went to the Philippines on a jun
time when U.S. dollar short-term interest rates were around twenty perc
Philippines, the bank held it for a couple of weeks and claimed "broken cab
they hadn't received it, but I'm sure it was just a way of earning interest on
I'm in the habit of telegraphic transferring money all over the world these d
it back then?
Around this time, Tip ended up in jail in the Philippines, having been
with $50,000. His girlfriend flew from Jakarta to Manila with more mon
$10,000 got him out of jail but didn't get the $50,000 back.
Some months later, by the time they were in Korea, Tip decided it was
the money. So she ended up in jail. But anyway, I don't remember wor
Korea.
 When Jay and I went into the Philippines, we were losing everywhe
already been to the out-of-the-way places—Zamboanga, Davao, Cebu—
counters, and any Westerner that turned up in those places betting ot
overwhelmingly likely to be a card counter. You couldn't last more than a f
From there we went to Seoul. We didn't last long before they barred us
Tip's team burned out all these places.
I asked at the casino how to get to Inchon. Apparently, they then rang
coming. When Jay got there they said, "No no, we've heard about you. Yo
and tell your friend he is barred, too." I was barred from this casino without
After Inchon we went back to Seoul and got ready to leave. The night
couldn't sleep at all. I was worried about getting caught with $60,000 on m
confiscated.

It must have been a tough night.

That was my only one. No, actually I had another one in Manila late
$20,000 to carry on the plane with him. When we went to catch the plane,
hotel along Rojas Boulevard.

Wait, you just gave some guy you'd never met $20,000 and asked

I'd known him for a couple of days on this junket to Manila.

Oh well, that makes perfect sense then!

I'd met him in Manila. He arrived on a different plane than I, but he w

Anyway, it was a very nervous time waiting for him at the airport. I had
another $10,000 down the front of my underpants. Even now, if I need t
another country, I carry it in my sock out of habit. This guy was quite youn
four and seemed safe. He was going with me on the same plane, so there di

But you didn't ride with him to the airport?

 No, that's what went wrong. After I transferred the money to him in th
sneaker. Then he told me he had to go back to his hotel to get his luggage.
fifteen minutes to get back to his hotel and get his stuff, then another thirty
Suddenly, making the plane is going to be very close. Off he went.
I arrived at the airport and stalled until the last minute board-1 ing the
have to board." We got onto the plane. I waited, waited, getting more and m
and we were still sitting there, about to start taxiing, when suddenly they op
the very last minute.

It sounds like you were more worried about him missing the f
ripping you off.

Right. It never crossed my mind that he was trying to rip me off. My re

a possibility.

I think people are fascinated by the amounts of money involve

freely passed around in the gambling world. In the business world,
and the lawyers would still be writing contracts.

We certainly did in the blackjack days. I continue to do it now. I did

once (Tommy Hyland is interviewed in Chapter 3). Having just come from
European currencies. I had thousand Swiss lira notes, thousand deutschma
are big. I hadn't met Tommy at the time, but we had mutual friends. I didn
Tommy for $10,000. I offered him the foreign currency to hold, but he sai
man's handbag to carry the European currency. Given they were bigger, the
So I've got this money in the handbag and we're having dinner in
escalators that run down from three levels, and the restaurant is on the top,
nice restaurant and I left the purse sitting not on the table but on a bench wi
left the restaurant and forgot the handbag. I got down three flights of esca
this purse behind with $40,000 in it. I went running up those escalators as
the table we were sitting at and the purse was gone. It had been only five m
d', and said, "Do you know what happened to the purse that I left at the tab
waiters picked it up." They returned the purse to me and I looked in and
convinced that they looked in, saw the money, and thought it was Monopo
got ten all of it back if they'd realized it was real money, and how much it w
You're right, though; it is different in gambling. If you hand some
straightforward. They should give it back, plus or minus whatever they w
things are not necessarily so clear-cut. I expect you are more likely to ge
world.

Have you ever been ripped off big by anybody?

The only possibility would be a guy named PM. In early '81, while pla
$100,000. It didn't occur to me to distrust him at the time. I thought PM w
story in Korea that involved another guy who'd left money in a safe-depos
lifted the money and disappeared. I don't think he's been heard from since.
blackjack-playing planet. So there would be some question about whet
blackjack player.

Other than Jakarta, did you run into much cheating?

Of the three times I'm sure I was cheated, twice were in illegal casinos
and the third was that time in Jakarta. In any of the legal casinos in the Sta
aren't going to risk it.
As for losing money backing blackjack players, I guess if you're part
good and honest players, then it's okay. But if you start, as I did, backing
wouldn't have a very successful record doing that.

Any good blackjack stories come to mind?

One time a gambler named Winchester, Cathy Hulbert, and I went

Paradise on Queensland Gold Coast. People there knew me from Hobart, w
By this time, Winchester and I were both in the Griffin Book, and maybe
or two of playing there, they cut one deck or a deck and a half from the fro
money out of this; I was doing it for fun. I would bet two hands of two hu
went negative, I would cut down to ten dollars for a hand and then jump it
was controlling when they shuffled. There were a couple of other players
me. I told them that this was not a good game. They should go to anothe
having too much fun watching this right here."
So I'd just cut my bet to ten bucks and then increased it to a hundred. T
dealer either didn't hear him or ignored him and dealt me a ten. Now the pi
she said, "I've already given him a card." He said, "Never mind, shuffle up
ten, I wanted to play out the hand, but the dealer took it away. I we
commission, though I'm not sure what they call it there. I complained to
back downstairs to get statements from witnesses, figuring that the casino
interested. They had me fill out some form explaining exactly what happe
wasting my time filling out the form when we should be going down and co
form and they wouldn't come downstairs with me, so after thirty or forty m
I went back to Hong Kong, where I was living, and didn't hear anything
a check from the casino for a hundred dollars. The reason the gaming co
they were watching my table on video. They'd seen it happen. So they for
for a hundred dollars.
My blackjack career ended in 1981. I did go to the MGM in Vegas w
with a Chinese friend. By the time I sat down at the table I'd been traveling
tired. I played for an hour and a half and I Was playing $5,000 to $15,000.
I guess I didn't look like a normal gambler while this was happening. Give
looked far too bored as I was winning all that money. The total play I got
won $212,000.

Then they barred you?

Yes. I'd wired $400,000 to the casino. After the session was over I with
it in a brown paper bag. So I'm walking through the casino with $400,000 i
friend who was also a counter. In retrospect, given the cameras they hav
friend was so well known as a blackjack player, it wasn't a good thing to be

So after blackjack you went back to Australia and started be

computers, or just handicapping?
 Handicapping, using a mathematical system based on weights. Americ
they ignore weights. In America a horse will generally carry much the sam
he wins a race he's not suddenly going to have to carry ten pounds more
Weight is a significant factor here. Whereas, in America on the fast dirt
from Whoa to Go. Anyway, in Australia, grass racing is less speed related
Winchester had been trying to persuade me to bet the horses from the time
blackjack. But I didn't know anything about the horses. It would be to
Australia in 1982 and married for a year, I was a bit restless doing nothin
ethic was rearing its ugly head, so I thought I should find another way of m

What happened to, "I have my $250,000, so I can retire?"

Exactly. As I said, the Protestant work ethic was rearing its ugly head.

Do you still have that today? You told me many years ago that a
enough money not to work. But the more money you got, the harder

There's certainly some element of truth to that. I'm sort of lazy and
inclined to get depressed are when I'm not doing the work that I should
financial accounts I haven't settled for years. I just settled two or three mo
associates. I owed him $9.8 million, which had been accumulating for four

That's pretty amazing that this guy hasn't been in any hurry to
been owed for four years.

Most of it doesn't go back that far. Most of it has come in the last year.

So your Protestant work ethic was making you go back to work.

Right. Another thing that influenced me was that in 1981 Cathy Hul
York. The Bermuda Bowl bridge championships were going on in upstate
time, so I went.
Now, one of Australia's greatest bridge players was near retirement at
and he'd been at the top level of Australian bridge, the best player for
professional punter. He took me aside during this Bermuda Bowl and said t
he'd teach me how to punt on the horses. Presumably, Winchester had been
me interested in this. I never did take him up on the offer, but it did get
formed my own team of four in Melbourne. This was very unusual for ho
individualistic. I was bringing blackjack team theory to punting the horses.
be part of a gambling team than to be on your own, having to suffer th
lasted maybe four months before I split to New Zealand. We won about Au

punter—A gambler.

In New Zealand, I organized Winchester and a couple of other profes

got the three of them to calculate probabilities for each horse in the ra
overlays.1
We went through some huge fluctuations there. We started with a bank
We won $50,000 and then had the whole lot wiped out. At one point, arou
back to Australia for a month to get more money. I went back to New Z
fluctuation, about $100,000 upwards, before most of it blew away again
parted ways and we were betting our own money.
1
For this and numeric references 2 and 3, see "Woods Notes" at the end of this chapter.

How did you wind up here in Hong Kong?

When Winchester and I were in New Zealand, there was an article in

[race betting] turnover was here. Back in 1984 it might have been $3 or $
money and the pools2 were enormous compared to Australia and New Zea
It seemed like a juicy place to be. But first, I went off to the States
subconsciously to escape a girlfriend I was otherwise going to have to mov
Winchester and I talked about Hong Kong briefly in New Zealand b
talked about it some more in the States and I also talked to a guy named Pit
finalized plans, Winchester decided not to come and maintained that we w
the '80s, other Australians came here, tried to win, and generally failed.
 How did it happen with Pitts? Did you approach him or is th
working on already?

He wasn't working on it, and I don't think anyone approached anyone.

about something and Pitts said, "Sounds interesting. We're interested."
So we came here. My investment was sixty percent of $150,000. Pitts
had ten percent. Now my plan was to try to rate [handicap] the horses my
Pitts' interest was always in trying to develop a computer model. I wasn't c
work. Unfortunately, at the first race meeting I went to, there were maybe
the win, the quinella, doubles, everything.3 You know, "My God, I'm drown
I went to the track at Happy Valley [the Hong Kong race track], I was
Again, very unfortunate because ...

race meeting—Horse races are grouped into race meetings. Racetracks g

a meeting.

You thought you had the touch.

Yes, yes. Anyway, with a combination of expenses—probably only h

horses—the $150,000 bankroll eventually got decimated.

Were they living here too?

In 1984 just Fred from the blackjack team and I came here.

Pitts and his partner were back working on the model in Vegas?

Well, not working on the model. His partner was setting up the databa
things in from yearbooks that we sent them from over here. How much
modeling before he came here a year later I don't know. Probably only five
got here in October '85. After another year, he'd written a fair amount of co
the horses that involved selecting my favorite in the race and betting it i
ratings wouldn't win if I tried betting quinellas and tierces and everything
the best horse and betting it if it was an overlay is the American-type meth
that. In the latter part of the '85 season, that's what we were doing, rather th

Were you paper trading the computer model at the same time? To

We could run tests on back data. Paper trading? Not really. It's possible
stuff some days, and found out that it didn't do very well.
A mistake that both Pitts and I made back in those days was building t
too small. Pitts built models partly in consultation with me on two or three
small and too back-fitted. By the next season, '86-'87, we had probably run
of the $150,000, or less. Prior to this, Pitts had tried a couple of other ways
system.

I don't know what that is.

Well, it was an arbitrage thing using the win tote in the States to indic
pool. Only, Ziemba's system was faulty. He'd used a straight mathematical
running second and third given the horse's probability of winning. But real
second and third anywhere near as often as the straight mathematical formu
was a mathematician who, I guess, first published a paper on this, alt
independently. It's very simple.

tote (tote board) — The large racetrack scoreboard, which tells the be
about the next race and the previous race. The name tote board came from
operated at most racetracks in North America.

Anyway, Harvel doesn't represent real life, so others have come up wi

them. I was aware of this effect before coming to Hong Kong. I knew in
finish second only half as often as they won. In effect, you need to discount
by eighty percent for finishing second, and about sixty-four percent for fini
Pitts eventually went back to Atlantic City and started a computer team
successful. They might have won a couple of million or so.
 How many years did it take before you started winning in Hong K

It was the third year. We won in '86 using the computer.

What was the state of your personal bankroll at that point? Did y

Yes. In '86-'87 I won $100,000. By October '87 I was worth about US

winning.
I want to mention that horse racing skills don't transfer very effectiv
There might be one or two years, two being probably closer, of learning
familiar with how things operate in different countries. Certainly ten or mor
bet in America and Australia and New Zealand would have all been q
mixture of all of them.

Is that why you never pursued going after the races in Australia o

It would require a much bigger database. In Hong Kong there are m

hundred races per annum. You don't have horses coming in from other c
races per year. In Australia or the U.S., you might have 20,000 horses, may
per annum. Obviously, you wouldn't want to bet on all of them, but you'd n
because occasionally someone is going to come from some country rac
you're betting. So it would be far more complex. In terms of trying to set
possibly make there, I'm probably better off devoting the work to trying to

When did you make your first million?

During the October '87 stock market crash. That's one of my favorite st
on the Hang Seng index in Hong Kong sold two months ahead and thre
market. So you could sell the futures, buy all the underlying stocks, and ea
into the largest stock-brokerage firm here, owned by the Hong Kong &
myself. At this point I had only $100,000. I'd sell these futures and buy t
hedged arbitrage position. Sometimes, for some reason, there would be brie
two-month position the futures would drop and trade at a discount. Now I c
buying the futures for less than the stock and selling the stock for a pr
dropping at your feet when it happened. I earned the equivalent of sixty
trades.
At the time I considered the U.S. market and the Hong Kong market e
times during this period I shorted the market. Each time, when it didn't b
quickly closed out. Once I lost about US$15,000 doing this and another
seem like very much these days but at the time the two of them might have
worth.
Anyway, come the fateful Monday in October 1987. The American mar
Wednesday, five percent on Thursday, and five percent on Friday. These
percent they're wailing. Three five-percent-down days in a row. I'd bee
stockbroker's Monday morning, getting there half an hour early, ready to
position. What I needed to do was sell my stocks, which I had hedged, and
Kong stock market started falling that morning while I was doing this.

On the Wednesday and Thursday when the U.S. market was fall i
dropping?

Not too much. The Hong Kong stock market peak was somewhere aro
3,800 so there hadn't been anything like the three five-percent drops. I
morning. The Hong Kong market went down twenty-five percent that
another twenty-five percent that night. I think it dropped five hundred p
Kong stock market for the rest of the week. There was some suggestion tha
go bankrupt, because some of the people who were long the futures were
little while there was some suggestion that the people who profited out
Eventually, the Hong Kong government put together a $2 billion dollar
exchange.

So what did you make on this deal?

In the space of a day, I made US$1 million. I was worth about $400,
day. That was a fairly nice win, wasn't it?
 Do you consider that the same as gambling?

I suppose it was. Although at the time I did it, I thought it was a certain

I don't mean that you didn't have an edge. I mean, do you see an
play the markets and guys who are professional blackjack players or

No. Many of the professions, currency traders perhaps, are using system
a far more sophisticated variation [of gambling] than blackjack, or the h
computer model back-testing data.

Which is what many traders do. I'm surprised you haven't taken
Created a computer model.

The amount of work involved would be huge. And there are already s
in it for years.

Don't you think that the market is so huge, it doesn't matter how m

The book Market Wizards referenced a futures trader who made $1

successful at it for a number of years. At the same time, he invested in t
money on each one. He wasn't throwing away his money, he was looking f
the houses except one. I'm a strong believer in sticking to your area of e
other business now and I'd be less inclined to invest in others.

But you still do a lot of trading.

This is my own market timing. I've been good at this over twenty-fi
period in Australia. In '74, I bought stocks at the lows.

Have you set up any kind of rules for yourself about your entry o

It's instinct, which is generally pretty good, although sometimes I

underestimate the normal investor's insanity. Having made this $1 millio
Japanese market. A friend tried continuously to persuade me to get out of th
by a computer game. I ended up playing this game for two months from
fed me dinner while I sat at the keyboard. So I ignored my Japanese positio
I lost the whole million back again.
But it did have a good side effect because during this period I increase
horses. I have always bet whatever I felt comfortable with. So my betting w
year. By the time I lost the money in Japan, I had won another $100,000 o
that season, $1 million the next season. So though I went from millionaire
was a millionaire again within a year.

There's a point at which if you bet too much at horses, you'll b

your edge. Are you at that maximum level now?

I'm not very scientific about it. I still use an old Australian method
multiplying the bankroll times the probability, and making that bet. The
determined partly by the total pool size. To give you an example, the ban
bets into the quinella pool might be five percent of the total pool. Sometim
our model, with three times expectation, this means I might take fifteen
taken more than that. I would guess that my biggest collect on a single qui
was the last race of a meeting as well and it paid HK$21 million. Tha
million.

What I was getting at was, currently, what you bet is not a questi

Our betting levels now, and for some years, are limited by the pool size

I find it funny, though, that you had this comfort level abou
willing to plunge into shorting the market for such a huge figure.

But I wasn't risking that much. When I shorted the Hong Kong market
by fifty percent. I'd done it a couple of times before and lost limited amoun
 I'm talking about the Japanese short. So you weren't expectin
occurred?

No. I put my head in the sand. I should have gotten out earlier. In Janu
of weeks later I closed it out, losing about $15,000, for fear of the same thin
started losing $100,000 or $200,000, I'd just not think about it, find some
would have dribbled away as before. Two weeks later, Japan went off the
years. I had plans of shorting more as the market went down. I'd even wor
make—between US$5 million and US$10 million. There are a couple o
They're both missed opportunities, rather than the loss on the Japanese mar

It fell off the cliff and you didn't jump in? Why not?

I don't remember. I wouldn't have been very happy about it, so I pro
think this is a pretty good strategy for life. If there's something distressing
your mind than get depressed or fret over it. As much as possible, it's best t
or the things that are going to upset you.

Your thinking about other games has been to quantify them

Whereas, over twenty-five years of this trading, it seems you have
saying you should do it today. I'm just curious that it never evolved

I wouldn't do it. It's too instinctual. I did another one in '95, and th
opportunity. When the U.S. dollar went down to close to 80 yen, I set up a
It briefly went below that to 79 or something. Then it gradually edged upw
US$2.4 million. At the time, I thought this was a pretty neat little score. Bu
147.

So back to horses.

Yes. I won $100,000 in the '86-'87 season; $300,000 in '87-'88; $1 m

'89-'90; and $2.5 million in '90-'91. By February '92 I was up approximat
then I went on a losing streak such as I've never suffered before. This may
from other teams. Maybe my model wasn't good enough then. I hadn't don
done much work on it.

If it was working, why fix it?

Right. In those years I didn't work very hard. I'd get prepared for the r
be forced to do whatever accounting I had to do the next day, then forget ab
Anyway, having been up approximately $2.5 million, I'd lost $2.9 mi
think I won about $400,000 that day to break even for the season. This i
Australians. They wanted me to give them the Tele-Quote information tha
they could start building a model. Instead of selling it, I made them an o
have done if they weren't here already. They'd come here with Winchester.
[At this point in the interview, Alan glances at the Bloomberg's screen set
losing $500,000 here while we're talking.

Because the market is going up?

Yes [he's shorting again]. So in '93, for the first time, I started program
loss that I decided to do some work on the system. The next year I was
about $1.5 million. The next season we won $10 million, and the next seas
that.

Are you still winning eight figures a year?

Yes. I've passed the billion-dollar mark [HK$1 billion is about US$130

You also bet a lot of money on World Cup soccer didn't you?

I won about $8 million betting World Cup soccer. I ended up betting £

suspect may be one of the biggest bets ever made by an individual punter
million]. There can't be many bigger than that.

What is your biggest winning day, and biggest losing day in gam b
 Biggest wins tend to get distorted by triple trios. One time we collected
about $8 million on other bets. About US$7.5 million for the day. I don't th
One day at Happy Valley there was a seven-race meeting. Our norma
might be twelve, thirteen, fourteen million Hong Kong. This day we laid ou
the lot of it. I think that's still my biggest outlay ever [about US$3 million].

Earlier you mentioned mistakes.

One way or another we've made many mistakes. One of my worst wa

get them down. One day a race came up and I wasn't absolutely sure about
We missed getting a quinella that would have paid US$1 million. I was ver
manage to shrug off mistakes of equal magnitude with a bit more elan. B
next race, the last race of the day, I made another mistake and put the bets
the betting we were doing was at another location, but only bets that paid
bets on early, I drove the payout below 50-1, so the other location star
promptly got up and won! In flowed a $1.25 million return. Between t
$250,000.
Speaking of betting early, I mentioned a quinella before. It was paying
was aware that we had some big overlays in the race, and I deliberately pu
the other computer teams off it. I realized that if I reduced the dividends, I
off some of our combinations altogether, or at least reducing the amount th
collected a bit over US$2.5 million on that one quinella.

It seems that not only are you now beating the races, but it's als
figuring out what the other teams are doing.

I suspect others have given this a lot more thought than I have. Becaus
future models, I can't generally bet too early. I can't play this strategy gam
far more sophisticated software to take our bets back out of the pool and as
make other bets. If I bet too early, it will distort my betting in other pools.

But it's added another dimension to the game.

 Yes, but it's not one that I worry about too much. Another team did
anything I've ever done. Essentially, they overwrote some data for one ra
probabilities for the rest of the season. There were maybe six race meeti
from that race meeting raced thereafter he would get a very low probabilit
at that meeting. So the last race meeting they ended up betting on the wron
still won about US$1.5 million.
One day we were betting the double trio, but with very unsophistica
merge the bets. It would just print out 8,000 bets and then someone would
and effectively say, "You can combine these," etc. By mistake, one of th
combination. He bet the same thing twice. This combination promptly go
pool was going to be $5 million anyway, but I think we collected $13 millio
Recently, after I'd printed the bets out in time, one of the girls [placi
$50,000, but the operator repeated it back as $500,000. The girl said, "No
minute or so to correct, so she didn't get all the bets down. One was a qui
We missed a $9 million collect through her not getting the bet down.
When we don't get bets down, sometimes they don't win and we save
down because the advantage is reasonably big.

You obviously don't need investors. Do you still have them?

Yes. The outside investors are getting a return on their money. I take
come off, so what they get - is forty-five percent of the win, approximat
invest get fifty percent. No, I don't need the investors, but having given th
away. If there wasn't some ego involved in wanting to do well for all the
just me, I wouldn't be driven to work as hard as I do. Also, there's psy
pleasure one gets out of working with others. Making money for other peo
millionaires.

That must be a good feeling. Let's say you had a nephew fresh
and said, "I want to be a professional gambler." What would you tell

I think I'd say, "Don't do it unless you want to be a computer progra

book back in 1984 [Caro on Gambling]. It was a series of articles or storie
falling out of the trees, or something. What he was saying was that co
gambling, and if you didn't have a computer, get one right away. He said, "
sell your car, sell your friends, but rush out and buy a computer. Computers

He was right.

He certainly was. Which is why I'd say now to anyone asking me, "It's
a computer programmer."

But if you want to be a poker player or a backgammon player o

need to be a programmer.

I would generally advise against trying to become one of those, becaus

even and tough temperament, a strong desire to accumulate money, an
successful gambler. I think Caro also said that the most successful p
approximate equals is he who steams least. Gambling on races is fai
different, although there are punters that steam, as well. Amongst approx
thing is self-control and not steaming. It's more important than ability.

If this ended tomorrow what would you do?

I would hope I'd retire. It's been my plan for years to retire to the Philip

Woods Notes

1—Overlay
The concept of an "overlay" is an important one in the world of pro
racing, an overlay is a bet in which the payoff odds are greater than th
example, if the true chance of a horse winning is one in three, but the hors
Assuming you bet this horse and the race was run three times, you would l
five betting units once, for a net gain of three units. So the winning handica
the horse that will win, but the horse that will yield an overlay.
The term overlay has come to be used in many areas of gambling, des
bettor has an advantage in a proposition.

2—Pari-Mutuel Betting
Horse betting is based on a pari-mutuel system. Unlike sporting eve
bookmaker, a race bettor is actually betting against the other bettors. When
in casino race books), it goes into a pool. The racetrack takes a percentage
the betting service—this fee ranges from 17% to 25%, depending on the p
then disbursed to the winners in proportion to the amount bet.
For example, if $12,000 is bet in the win pool, the racetrack takes $
wagers on the winning horse totaled $1,000, those bettors would receive th
divided among them. The winning bettors receive odds of 9-1. If $2,000
would be $8,000 profit, and the same horse would return 4-1.

3—Horse Race Bets

In Hong Kong, many different bets can be made on a given race.
Most of these bets have an equivalent bet in the United States.
Win—Pays if horse finishes first in the race.
Place—Pays if horse finishes first or second.
Show—Pays if horse finishes first, second, or third.
Double—Must pick the winning horses in two races. In the U.S., this is
Treble—Must pick the winning horse in three races.
Six Up (sometimes called Pick Six)—Must pick the winners of six race
Quinella (called Exacta Box in the U.S.)—Must pick the horses finishin
Exacta—Must pick the horses finishing first and second in the correct o
Tierce (called Trifecta Box in the U.S.)—Must pick the horses finish
order.
Trifecta—Must pick the horses finishing first, second, and third in the c
Double Trio—Must pick the horses finishing first, second, and third, in
Triple Trio—Must pick the horses finishing first, second, and third, in o

8
 DOYLE BRUNSON

The World Series of Poker is held every May at Binion's Horseshoe in

of numerous tournaments held over the course of a month: the winner o
diamond bracelet and a pile of money. The championship game is no-lim
and a million-dollar first prize (and even higher these days). Every pok
winning this event. Doyle "Texas Dolly" Branson won it two years straigh
of eight bracelets from World Series events and was the first poker player
in tournament prize money.
In 1978 Doyle published Super/System, a book that revolutionized pok
wrote a chapter on their specialty. Doyle himself wrote the chapter for no
about 7-card stud and Mike Caro covered 5-card draw. It was the
professionals, and since its release, the level of play has steadily increased.
Doyle was known as the first "educated" poker player; he had a split
Business Administration. His plan was to teach school and coach sports, bu
After college, he worked in sales for a year, but found he was making a l
quit the job and never looked back.
For 10 years he traveled around Texas to anywhere a big game was sp
had to win the money. You had to collect it. You had to keep from gettin
keep from getting robbed. And then you had to keep from getting arrested.
of things that you had to overcome."
By 1973 Doyle's reputation had become so big that he found himsel
moved to Las Vegas and experienced phenomenal success there, too. He sa
ahead of their time. I just won all the money, all the time."
Poker has exploded in popularity since then. The finals of the World Se
ESPN and there's a tournament circuit in the U.S. and Europe. They've bro
and showcased a new breed of younger players. But Doyle Brunson remain
the world.

When did you first start gambling?

In college. It was about 1953. I was playing poker in the dormitories.

 How did you go from playing in college to playing professionally

I graduated from college, then went back and got my Masters degree. I
machine and bookkeeping-machine salesman and I worked there for ab
playing hold 'em. It became evident that I could make a lot more money
anything else. So I quit and I've been doing it full-time ever since.

What was your degree in?

I had a Bachelor of Science and a split Masters in Education and Busine

But you never branched out into business?

No. I was going to coach and teach, but the pay scale was so bad that I

What did your parents think?

They didn't like it at all. In fact, I hid it from them. My dad never re
poker, but he didn't know that I was doing it professionally. My mother n
course, once you get to be a big success at something, people are dif
struggling, starting off. Most people do struggle when they start off in th
exceptions, like Chip Reese [Chip Reese is interviewed in Chapter 2]. He
was one of the better players and has remained so. Most of us have paid our

At that time, did the professional poker circuit involve a lot of

game?

In Texas it did. There was a circuit in Texas where there were games all
the month. I made those and did that for ten years.

In the early years traveling around in Texas, were there hijacking

 Many. That was always one of the perils you faced. You had to win the
had to keep from getting cheated at the table. You had to keep from getti
from getting arrested by the police. It was an interesting combination of thi

Was the decision to move to Vegas made because you thought y

things?

That was part of it. Another part was that I'd gotten so far above the a
unwelcome in some places. I just won all the money all the time. I had som
time. Most of the good players now know them all, because of the book [
and playing. Back in those days I almost never lost.

Were those no-limit games?

No-limit. I didn't play limit until I moved to Las Vegas. Actually, I did
was here. Finally, when I saw that that was where a lot of the money was b
and I started playing limit. The first seven years in Las Vegas when I p
losing.

Is there a lot more skill in no-limit than limit?

Oh yeah, a lot more skill in no-limit. You have more things you can do.

I read somewhere that in limit games, a player could go for an e

of fluctuations.

I don't agree with that. When I've been playing regularly, I've neve
Anytime I lost five times I would take a week or two off, and reevaluat
wrong. I don't believe it's possible to play poker for a year and lose if you're

When did you come to Las Vegas?

 I came here in 1973 to live. I first started coming here in the late '60s.

Did you have problems with the mob when you moved to Las
problem for the professional poker players back in the early days.

They were to some people. I never allowed myself to be drawn into any
were. They approached me [to be a part of cheating rings] and I always sa
respect me for that. They realized that I wasn't going to do it. I knew tha
have always tried to promote gambling. If there's any taint or any hint of a
people stop playing. I didn't want that. I tried to keep the games I was in as
the top players did the same thing.

Was poker big in Vegas at that time?

Not like it is now.

When did the big upsurge in the game take place?

I think when the World Series of Poker started. It's been getting b
phenomenal the growth it's had. If I were a young man now I'd be killing m
good games and so many tournaments. They have them worldwide.

Do you like to play tournaments?

I don't play a lot of tournaments. I like the side games better, because th

There's a tournament tomorrow at Harrah's. Is that no-limit hold 'e

Yes, it is, but I won't play in it. To start with, I usually like them to be
$10,000 buy-in and this one is $5,000. Also, I hear the room is smoky; I do
sick.

That's one nice thing about the card rooms in California; they are
 I wish they would pass that here.

Is tournament play completely different from side-game play?

Not completely different, but there are a lot of differences. It's n

tournament as it is in side games. In a tournament you can lose only yo
losing whatever you bet in a side game. You can bet $100,000 in a tournam
to have already won that much money; if you lose it, you still lose only
Whereas, if you're playing in a real poker game and you bet $100,000 an
have to have a different make-up, I think, to play the big no-limit [side] gam

Are there many big no-limit games now, or is it primarily limit?

It seems like limit has taken over a lot. They just play high limits. A $2
huge game. I went into Bellagio one day and they had a $200-$400 game, a
$l,000, a $l,000-$2,000, and a $l,500-$3,000 game. All those games wer
would've been unheard of a few years ago. President Clinton, although he
economy good. It seems everybody has money, which is great for gambling

What made you decide to write Super/System ? Didn't you wis

book? I would think it hurt your income.

Actually, it was the reverse. It made a lot more players. I think there
because of that book than any other factor. It made good players out of me
good players out of good players. You have to have a nucleus to have a
helped.

Do you travel much anymore?

A little bit. I'm trying to curtail it as much as I can. I've got trips sche
Austria in the near future.
 Those are both for tournaments?

Yeah. I went to France for a poker game. I've been to the Isle of Man, A
everywhere. If I were a young man, as much as I liked to play when I was y

Do you find that having as big a reputation as you do helps or hu

I think it's beneficial. Some of the really good players will shy away s
But the reputation causes moneyed people that have read and heard about m

So the book helped you in that regard.

I think so. It's hard for me to realize that I'm as well-known as I am. I'
There was the book, and a lot of articles in magazines, some television cov
before I realized that people actually knew who Doyle Brunson was,
tournament of champions over there, a bunch of European players came o
autograph the book and so forth. It seems I'm better known over there than

How has Las Vegas changed with regard to poker?

There wasn't that much poker, especially high-limit poker. There was a
started a no-limit hold 'em game at the Golden Nugget. That was the fore
had a few games that got big sometimes, but nothing like the magnit
flourishing.

It seems to have respectability today as well.

Oh sure. In the '50s and '60s it was almost a disgrace to be a poker pla
actually walked across the street to keep from saying hello to me. Those sa
they come to town and want to go out to dinner. I have a long memory for
now, but it did bother me then. I think I've put it behind me, but it's still
how people looked down on me. They thought you were some kind of
something that I chose to do. I started and I liked it. I was good at it.
 You said one time that there's a difference between "being" broke

Probably what I was referring to was, if you just run out of money yo
borrow money. That's getting broke. If you really get destitute—where
promised people that you would pay them back and haven't—that's wha
being broke. People have to cut down on their playing and play in selecti
happens. I think I did that pretty well in the early years. When I was run
back to lower limits until I made myself comfortable again. Then I would s

You weren't one of those guys who were rich one week and broke

I never plunged off and got myself in real bad shape, no. You have to h
you can't be a successful gambler, or a poker player at least. You have t
things. I think I got all my discipline from athletics. I was a miler, a l
basketball player. For my time I was really good. I think I developed a dis
phases of my life. I love to play. Ten years of my life are almost a blur w
and eat.

When did you take up golf?

When I was about thirty years old.

Has there been a lot of money to be made in golf over the years?

There wasn't when I first started playing. But there came a time wh
played some of the biggest games that have ever been played anywh
thousands of dollars.

You don't play anymore?

No, I blew out my leg and I can't play. It's been seven or eight years s
was good exercise, whether people say it is or not. I won a lot of money p
was a group of us around America who were the real high players. We g
was a great thing.

Chip Reese said he and Danny [Robeson] played against you and

Yeah, they were better players than we were, but we beat them. We kep

Is there a way to overcome that, if you're someone who dogs it?

I think it's something that's inbred. Some people choke and some don
like your muscles have a memory. You can just swing the same way. T
Guys like Tommy Fisher [professional poker player] or Billy Walters [Cha
them. That's when you find out who can play for the money and who c
myself. That was my way of doing things. I would over-match myself for
could usually win when the pressure came. Then you find guys like Bill W
overmatch yourself with one of them, they'll beat you. They don't choke.
1
See "Brunson Notes" at the end of this chapter.

Have you branched out into other forms of gambling?

I've always bet sports. Because of my background as an athlete, I've alw

I was growing up, I was very competitive. I had aspirations of being a pro
leg and had to quit.

How did you break it?

I was working at a gypsum plant and a big pile of sheet rock fell on me
happened, I never would have gotten into the gambling business, so I don't
on crutches for two years. It got better. I could do things on it for thirty y
problems now. I walk with a cane or crutch. Since I stopped playing golf
ankle have gotten bad. I need an operation on it, but I hate to go through it.
So I always had an interest in football, baseball, and basketball. I alw
pleasure. Then the last ten years we've gone into computer programming a
baseball every year and we've been very successful. Football too, but not as

Do you have the same kind of problems that Bill Walters tal
casinos not letting you bet?

We didn't for a long time. We do have problems now. Las Vegas has be
It's actually embarrassing. They've run all the business away from the c
books now offshore in the Caribbean. The Las Vegas casinos take very sm
don't know what they're thinking. I think they're inefficiently run.

It's like blackjack. There are very few people that can actually
are so afraid of them that they end up running more good business ou

I tried to play blackjack a little bit. I never really learned it. I never bec
win. But if I went in a casino right now and started playing blackjack, they'

Because they figure you wouldn't be playing if you thought you h

Right.

With people analyzing everything to death with computers, wh

gambling is?

I don't see it doing anything but getting bigger and better. It's obviou
gamble. It's a crying shame that we can't get Congress to legalize it and get
ago, before they started legalizing it in other states. The government sho
everywhere, but in order to open up a casino, they'd have to be your par
deficit. We'd have so much money in the treasury, we couldn't spend it.

What about for advantage players? Will there still be opportu

sports? Will poker get harder to beat?

The poker games will get harder, but there's an intangible in a poker pl
know as much as I do— they might know more about probabilities and od
intangible that defines whether you're a winner or not.
I don't know if you know Puggy Pearson. He's an old-time poker play
was the dominant poker player here. All the action revolved around the g
guy who had a sixth-grade education. He didn't have any idea about odds o
player. He has an instinct. That's what poker players have.

advantage player—A gambler who looks for a mathematical edge a

exploits it.

Did you see the movie Rounders ?

Yeah.

In movies, tells, like the thing with the Oreo cookie, are always
are there tells that are this distinct?

I've seen them. Not from professionals, but from amateur players who s
One time a guy came in and whistled Dixie every time he was bluffing. It w
picked up on it. Of course, he went broke… I have tells on people that I've
never had the opportunity to use. Like Johnny Moss (see "Walters Notes," C
had a tell on him that I picked up from across the room when I was wa
where he over-relaxed his face. He was bluffing and his face had no tensio
me, because I had played so much with him. After that, I saw it several tim
bluffing. But it never came up during a hand with me. I've had that with sev

tell— In poker, a habit or mannerism that gives away information about

Rounders, a climactic scene revolves around Matt Damon realizing the stren
way he separates and eats an Oreo cookie.

Do you write these things down?

I just remember them. I guess I have a very good memory.

 Do you keep track of your wins and losses?

Sure.

What do you keep track of other than the win or loss?

That's all.

Do you add it up at the end of the year to get a total?

You have to do that to pay your taxes, which I have always been ver
accountant told me one time that if I ever had any problems he would get
was the most conscientious taxpayer he'd ever had as a client. He said t
deductions I was entitled to. I just didn't want problems. These guys that d
only way you can accumulate things over time is to pay your taxes. I've a
guys. I tell them just close your eyes and pay. It hurts, but it's the way to do

I remember that Jack Strauss [a World Series of Poker champion

taxes.

Jack had some bookmaking problems, too. Jack was a unique man. He
book about.

You said when you came to Vegas the games were revolving
Johnny Moss here at that time?

Moss came a little after I did. Johnny had been out here about twenty y
trouble with the mob. He had to leave to keep from getting killed. He didn't

What was the cause of his problem?

It was way before my time, but the way I understand it, he had a proble
Siegel had been killed. There was a guy running the place named Gus Gree
All the big games were there and Johnny had somehow put a couple of gu
at the cards through a telescope. I don't know the whole story, but I heard J
the guys. They brought them down and Johnny was sure they were going t
and said, "Listen, those guys [in the ceiling] were just doing this for me.
them go." So they let those two guys go and they still had Johnny there in
out and got shotguns and marched back into the casino and got Johnny and
back to Las Vegas for twenty or twenty-five years.

Back in the early '70s when you got to Las Vegas, was there still

In the '70s, yes. That's when the mob guys were here.

Chip said that eventually the players said enough is enough.

Yes.

I think you're right that the worst thing for Vegas would be a r
cheated.

You get some of that anyway, even in the honest games. People lose
lost to a better player. So sometimes they claim that this happened or that h
honestly run as possible. They have surveillance cameras on every table, p
other. I'm convinced that in the upper limits they are one hundred perce
lower limits, because I'm not there.

What advice would you have for the guy who is in college playing
it takes to be a professional?

I would tell him that the probability is that he doesn't. Most of the p
champions. Some guy from Milwaukee is the hometown champion and he
best. He usually finds out that he's not. He winds up having to go home. Th
percentage. Some guys make it.
 If a guy does want to make it, what should he do?

There is no substitute for experience. Just play and play and play.

Start in the lower limits and work your way up?

Unless you inherited a lot of money.

Any books in particular you would recommend, other than your o

I haven't read a lot of those books. I think there is some worthwhile inf
David Sklansky are the two best authors out there. Both of them are brillian

Do you own a computer?

Yeah.

Have you seen any of the poker software?

Now that's something else. Mike Caro has a program called Poker Pr
learn the odds and percentages of different hands against other hands. I us
the hour, but these things play like 20,000 hands in thirty seconds or some
It's the greatest.

That surprises me. I wouldn't have thought you'd be using someth

Oh yeah. You keep learning as you go. The exact numbers are a little
'em I knew about what the odds of making a flush were. But this tells you o
don't make a flush with two cards to come. That's helpful. You can figure
advantageous to call.

Tell me about the ten, deuce. The second time was it a superstiti
won the World Series of Poker twice. Both times he won the last h
considered a terrible starting hand.]

No, I was forced into the pot as the big blind. It was down to two of
was the same hand. The flop came ten, eight, five. The other guy had the e
tens and I checked it. He made some small bet and I called it. Here c
remember thinking, Here it is again. I checked it and he bet. I moved in on
another ten.

big blind—A forced bet in hold 'em that starts the action. Typically, the
up half a bet, called the small blind, and the next person puts up a complete b
flop — In hold 'em five community cards are dealt in the middle of
initially; this is the flop. After a round of betting, the fourth card, known a
The last card is known as the river, or fifth street.
move in — To bet all your chips. Also known as "going all in."

The first time was it also a case of you being in the blind?

No. The first time it was down to Jesse Alto and me. Jesse was a notori
out of a nice pot and I knew he was steaming. You understand what I mean
really ready to play. He raised the pot and I called it, which I ordinarily wo
of spades that time. He had an ace, jack. The flop came ace, jack, ten. He m
called, and off came a deuce. He still had aces and jacks against tens and
him. He called it and the last card was a ten.

He must have really been steaming then.

Well, the game was over. I was very fortunate.

Do you now get into situations where the flop comes ten, deuce
throw their hand away just because they know the story.

They talk about it, and I attempted to play that hand for years. Finally, I
bad hand.

Any of the up-and coming young players that stand out in your e

Oh, there are a lot of them. Poker's a young man's game. Usually, you
games over the age of fifty. For some reason they start tailing off. You go l
a bunch of kids. I'd say most of them are in their thirties. There are a lot of

How long have you been married?

Almost forty years.

How has your wife dealt with this life?

She's been remarkable. It takes a special woman to be with a poker p

and downs, but also the mood swings and the hours that you're away. B
hardest to be apart. I was gone for three or four weeks at a time. She's neve
of guys' wives will. She never calls the poker room unless it's really import
has done things. She realizes my work comes first. She handled it very well

What is the most you've ever won in a day?

I've had weekends where I won well over a million dollars.

I guess a poker game can last more than a day. What about the bi

I don't really recall. Three or four hundred thousand is the most I can
went to France I lost $1.4 million, but I was there several days.

Are there any moments that you look back on as your greatest ga

When you win the World Series, I think that's the ultimate for a p
anything better than that. There have been times when I needed to win,
Some of the biggest thrills I've had have been playing golf. There's nothin
to win all the money.-That's a thrill you can't hardly equal. I was lucky e
said, I always matched up where I had a very tough game, as opposed to m
they have almost a cinch. People wanted to play me because they knew that
There were golf games everywhere I went. I had different places across
have good games. Games where I thought I could win and usually did. I
enjoyed playing golf more than playing poker.

You got more action because you gave more gamble; do you do t

I do to a certain extent. I used to have a reputation for giving action bef

it and in there it tells about all the bluffing strategies—about how many ti
period after I wrote the book where I couldn't bluff. I just got called. I
playing to where I just didn't bluff.

Any other advice to the players out there?

I think you have to ask yourself if you have the temperament to do th

you're doing it as a sideline to make money, because you have somethin
profession, you have to be prepared for some swings in your early years u
you can afford the fluctuations. Unless you have a lot of money.
But I've found that most of the poker players came from a poorer backg
puts a drive in you to succeed, which you don't have if you're raised with m
I've also noticed that a lot of the players are ex-athletes. Especially the
younger kids now are coming out of the universities. I was what I call the fi
poker player with a formal education. And for me, too, athletics helped me
I've got. I have a drive inside me that hasn't diminished over the years. I sti
ways to do that. One of my favorite sayings I have hanging on the wall. "If
you come in through a window." That's the case. You have to keep perse
discipline and character, and self-confidence.

How much do you play now?

 If the right people are here I play every day. That happens two or three
the bigger tournaments and just occasionally.

You mentioned that you play more in the side games than in the e

Yes, more in the side games. Even though you have an advantage in th
to win. You have three hundred players and they're going to pay eight or n
to that final eight or nine. So I play more in the side games.

Jack Binion is in Tunica now. He's no longer at the Horseshoe

have the World Series here with him gone?

They have been.

Has Jack being gone affected the tournament?

Well, last year I didn't play in it for the first time in thirty years. I have
it. But Jack Binion is one of my best friends. They had a family fight and I
some hard feelings there. Not on my part, but I guess on their part. I just did
It was the first one I ever missed.

I was surprised that Chip said he hadn't played it in ten years.

He hasn't played it much. It's during baseball season so he's doing

tournaments are pretty tough. I have a lot of admiration for those tournamen
on them. Guys like T.J. Cloutier [two-time World Series runner-up] a
Champion], they go to all the tournaments and they play all day every d
respect those guys who do that. They just happen to not play at the same le
of debate over who are the best players. Nobody can convince me that th
play for all the big money.

Did you take up backgammon when all the other players took it u
 No, I didn't. I saw how much time it took. I saw Chip start playing and
a month straight. I thought, my time is full now. So I never even made a
glad that I didn't.

Like any game, it takes a lot of time if you want to be good at it.

I wouldn't want to play if I couldn't be good.

What about gin rummy?

I'm a good gin player. I wouldn't say I'm great. That was another game
I'm better than the average country-club player. Against the real top players

How do you find doing business with gamblers as opposed to bus

I've had a lot of that. The upper echelon of gamblers are the most hono
sure they're the most honorable people in the world. Every time I've
problems. Somebody is always trying to screw you. Their word is no go
spelled out in contracts. With gamblers, their word is their bond. I'm not
way, but most of the ones that I deal with are. If they say, "Let me ha
tomorrow," you'll get it tomorrow. You can't do that in the business world.

What occupies your time now that you can't golf and don't play p

I don't know. I hang out on the Internet and bet sports and trade in the
dogs that are out getting groomed. I play with them a lot. My wife and I sp
out to dinner every night. I swim every day.
Poker playing is a great way to live. You don't have to answer to any
don't have any set hours. I can't imagine a better life. Benny Binion used to
is the land of milk and honey. If you don't, it's a burial ground." That's the s

Brunson Notes
 1—Puggy Pearson
One gambler who garners tremendous respect from the Gambling Wiz
Doyle Brunson's comments in this chapter, Chip Reese and Billy W
interesting to note the similarities in the assessments from Reese and Walte

From Billy Walters: One of the guys I have as much respect for as any
met Puggy thirty years ago. Just guessing, he's got about a fifth- or sixth-gr
Puggy can write, but he's a world-famous poker player and has been very s
lived in Las Vegas when it was controlled by the mob and he's been expo
exposed to in terms of cheating, teams, and everything else. He's been he
seen him get hold of hundreds of thousands of dollars and then get broke, a
[limits]. It's the equivalent of climbing a mountain, getting within two step
down about a thousand times. But now he's got money, he's got a beau
having an incredible feel, an incredible work ethic, and being able to navig
people couldn't. Puggy has what I call a jungle feel, as good as any man in

From Chip Reese: When I first came to town Puggy was on his way t
bad divorce. He had a nice family and he just kind of got ruined and fired
comeback. I used to break Puggy playing backgammon all the time. He'd
come over and we'd play. I'd beat him out of all his money, then I'd loan
scuffle with. But I'll tell you what he did. He went down to a lower level,
he'd been king of the hill for a long time around here. He went one notch
there and he's a millionaire now. To be sixty years old and broke and put th
lot of credit for that. He's an interesting guy. Puggy's not educated, but he's
people that's as good as anybody I've ever played against.

Puggy Pearson now travels around the country in his oversized motorh
traveling home are a royal flush, a pool cue, and this quote,

I'll play any man from any land

any game that he can name
for any amount that I count.
In small print at the bottom is the disclaimer,

Providing I like it.

Notes Index

Atlantic City (counter convention), Hulbert

Backgammon Points, Svobodny
Banking, Svobodny
Big Player, Hyland
Blackjack Point Counts, Hulbert
Bridge Culture, Tomchin
Card Counting, Hyland
Cash Culture, Reese
Color Code (chips), Reese
Comps, Hyland
Computer Group, Walters
Computers (blackjack), Hyland
Doubling Cube, Svobodny
Expectation (negative vs. positive), Tomchin
Expected Value, Tomchin
Fluctuation, Hulbert
Griffin Book, Hyland
Horse Race Bets, Woods
Line, Walters
Magnets (using to cheat), Tomchin
Magriel, Paul (profile), Svobodny
Martin, Bob (profile), Walters
Martingale Folly, Tomchin
Mayfair Club, Tomchin
Messenger Betting, Walters
Moss, Johnny (profile), Reese
Overlay, Woods 269
 Pari-Mutuel Betting, Woods
Pearson, Puggy (profile), Brunson
Poker Variations, Reese
Props, Svobodny
Standard Deviation, Hulbert
Team Play, Hyland
Ungar, Stu (profile), Walter
Uston's Victory, Hyland
Wong, Stanford (profile), Hyland

Glossary

86ed—To be thrown out.

action—Betting; when money is on the line.
advantage player—A gambler who looks for a mathematical edge a
exploits it.
all in (going)—To bet all of your chips.
backer—Someone who puts up money for gambling.
backgammon—To win a game of backgammon by removing all che
opponent removes any of his, and while he has at least one piece remaining
back room—To be "back roomed" is to be taken to the casino security
cheating.
balanced out—In bookmaking, to have approximately equal amounts
game.
bank—The money put up to play with.
barred (getting)—To be excluded from playing by casino personnel.
basic strategy—In blackjack, the mathematically correct way to pla
player's total and the dealer's upcard. Basic strategy varies slightly for diffe
beard—A person used to place bets, especially sports bets, without bein
big blind—The second of two forced bets in hold 'em that starts the a
button puts up half a bet ("small blind"), then the next player puts up a com
big nickel—Five-dollar tokens for video poker or slots.
black (chips)—Hundred-dollar chips.
 board—The upcards in 7-card stud or the community cards in hold 'em.
button—The last player to act in a poker hand.
camouflage—Making bets and plays that may not be optimal, in
indistinguishable from an ordinary gambler.
canceling—While counting cards, matching plus- and minus-value card
chalk—A horse favored to win. These horses offer the smallest odds
betting the favorite.
checkers—The playing pieces in backgammon.
check-raise—A poker tactic that entails first checking, then, when a
known as "sandbagging," it's considered (by beginners) to be a hostile actio
Chouettes—A backgammon game for more than two players.
cinch—A bet that can't lose.
cover—Making less-than-optimal bets to look unsophisticated to
"camouflage."
crew—A group of gamblers who work together as a team.
deal around the corner—In blackjack, to deal an entire deck to the b
middle of a hand.
dime—A thousand-dollar bet.
dog—Short for "underdog." Opposite of the "favorite."
dogging it—Choking or playing poorly under pressure.
drop-in—A player who in not a regular.
dumped (getting)—To be set up by a trusted partner.
earn—The expected win.
eye in the sky—Surveillance in a casino.
fade—To cover a bet.
favorite—The team or player believed to be most likely to win.
fifth street—The last of five community cards dealt in hold 'em. Also ca
fill or kill—A stock-trading term that means to execute a transaction im
firing off—Playing badly and with such reckless disregard that the play
"going on tilt" and "steaming."
first base—In blackjack, the first seat to the dealer's left and the first to
flat-betting—Never changing the amount of your wager.
flattened out—When a bookmaker puts up a bad line and handicapper
longer an edge.
floor—The casino playing area.
flop—In hold 'em, the initial three of five community cards dealt in the
followers—Players who try to bet along with the smart money.
fourth street—The fourth of five community cards dealt in hold 'em. Al
free roll—Proposition in which a player has no liability for losses, but s
freeze-out—A match in which players put up an agreed-on amount of
wins the entire stake.
front money—Money put on deposit in the casino's cashier ("cage") to
game—In sports betting, a bet on the game (sometimes called the "side
the point spread.
game maker—Player who arranges a proposition.
gammon—To win a game of backgammon by removing all check
opponent removes any of his.
get broke—To lose all your money.
get in your suitcase—A phrase that means a player loses so much, you
he goes (in order to play him all the time).
getting down—Placing a bet.
getting your nose opened—Losing badly. Often leads to gambling wild
giving (or having) gamble—The willingness to bet when you may have
going for a number—To take a big loss.
green (chips)—Twenty-five-dollar chips.
grinding—Trying to make a small amount of money with little risk.
grounded—Busted, broke.
handicap—To evaluate a horse's, team's, or player's chances of winning
handicap game—A game in which the opponents do not start equally.
have an accident—To lose a lot of money, or to "get broke."
heads-up—Playing against only one opponent.
hedge—Make a bet to reduce risk.
holding out—A cheating maneuver in which the cheat palms cards so
game at a later time.
jam—To bet aggressively. It often means big or fast action, as in "a jam
joint bankroll—When two or more players combine their bankrolls into
 juice—The amount a bookie charges to wager above the base amoun
"vigorish" or "vig."
juice dice—Dice with loads that are affected by magnets.
Kelly Criterion—A mathematical formula that quantifies what percent
achieve the maximum gain with the minimum chance of going broke.
knife-and-fork—Monthly expenses. Also called "nut."
leak—A weakness in a player's game or abilities.
line—A point spread or odds used for betting on a sporting event.
load—Weights put into dice to make certain numbers roll more frequen
lock—A bet that can't lose. Also called a "cinch."
loss leader—Playing a game or proposition in which you are not the fa
game later.
money management—The proper application of funds in gambling.
move in—To bet all your chips. Also known as "going all in."
moving money—Getting bets placed, usually a large amount.
Nassau—A betting proposition in golf. A Nassau consists of three bet
the second nine holes, and the entire 18 holes.
nickel—Five-dollar chips.
nit—A cheap player who is unwilling to tip or make any negative-expe
nut peddler—Someone who wants to bet only on sure things. An unbea
off the top—The first hand of a new deck or shoe.
on the rails—Refers to players with no money who lean on the rails ar
games; they're called "rail birds."
on volume—A consideration of total money wagered. To win a perc
that percentage to the total amount wagered.
order—A list of bets for a given day.
parlay card—A card listing all games and their point spreads for a giv
on the results of two or more games.
past post—To bet after a game has started or finished.
pick off—To detect a skilled, or a cheating, play.
pigeon—A bad player or a bad gambler; an easy mark. Also known as a
post—The start of a game or race.
press—To double a bet.
 price—The odds or line on a proposition.
pumped up—When a player wins (or gets) a lot of money.
punter—An English term for a gambler.
race meeting—Horse races are grouped into race meetings. Racetracks
at a meeting.
rail bird—A player who is broke and watches games from the rail that e
rake—A fee charged by the house for dealing the game. The house
percentage, from each pot.
reading lines—Watching the movement of point spreads to determine
bet.
red (chips)—Five-dollar chips. Also called "nickels."
rich (deck)—In blackjack, a deck containing many tens and aces.
ring game—A full (or near-full) table. In hold 'em, a ring game would c
card stud, it would be eight players.
river—The last of five community cards dealt in hold 'em, also called "
sandbag—To act weak when really strong.
shoe—A box that holds multiple decks of cards, often used in blackjack
short-handed—A game with few players.
short-stack—Refers to players with a small number chips, a disadvanta
shuffle point—Often applied to blackjack: the point at which a dealer sh
sky—Casino surveillance. Also known as the "eye" or the "eye in the sk
small blind—The first of two forced bets in hold 'em. Typically, the p
up half a bet.
smart money—The wagers of expert players who bet with an advantage
splitting pots—A deal made to divide a pot before a hand is over.
sport—Someone willing to take the worst of a proposition.
spot—A handicap.
spread—1) In blackjack, the variation between a card counter's small
differential in points by which one team is favored over another. 3) In poke
steaming—Playing badly or betting wildly when losing. "Steam" ca
betting momentum.
stiffed—Not getting paid.
stop-loss—A predetermined stopping point designed to limit losses.
 stuck—Losing money; usually used in the context of a single session.
taken off—Usually, to be cheated. Also, to be beaten by other players.
taking a shot—Trying to take advantage of a person or situation.
tell—In poker, a habit or mannerism that gives away information about
test out—In blackjack, prospective team members are often tested on th
third base—The seat to the dealer's right and the last to play.
tilt—Playing badly or wildly when losing.
total—In sports betting, a bet on whether the total points scored by both
below ("over/under") a number made by the bookie.
tote (tote board)—The large racetrack scoreboard. The name is take
which operated at most racetracks in North America.
tout—A service that sells sports picks to bettors.
turn—The fourth of five community cards in hold 'em. Also called "fou
under a peek—A player's cards are spied and conveyed to his opponent
vigorish—The commission charged by the casino on sports bets,
mathematical edge on a bet.
waffled—To take a big loss.
weight—Advantage.
whack up—Divide money.
wheel—In poker, a hand of A2345. The best hand when playing for low
world's fair (showing me the)—A lucky run of cards; every hand is a w

About the Author

Richard W. Munchkin is a writer, producer, and director of film and te

California, with his wife Nelia and sons Nicholas and Alexander. Richard
since childhood, and had a winning trip to Las Vegas once in 1987.