ISSUE

Ctrl + Alt + Del  Hate 02

2020

WAR ON TERROR: IN FROM THE COLD: FREE ON THE INSIDE:

OPEN LETTER TO THOSE INCARCERATED
RIGHT-WING 2.0? WHY I LEFT FOR FARRIGHT EXTREMISM
Jesse Morton WHITE NATIONALISM Matthew Heimbach and Jeff Schoep
Matthew Heimbach
Ctrl+Alt+Del-Hate
CONTENTS
Welcome to the second edition of Ctrl+Alt+Del-Hate,
LightUponLight.Online’s magazine dedicated to combating
polariz
polarization, hate and extremism throughout the West. We are
honored to present you with the second installment and thank
those of you that were receptive to the first edition. With a con-
tentious and confusing 2020 underway, combating hate and pro-
moting peace and an empathy-based paradigm for moving for-
ward is essential.

The artiles in the first edition of Ctrl+Alt+Del-Hate narrated the

paths out of extremism from several former right-wing extrem-
ists. Unfortunately, our empathy-based approach and belief in
(un)conditional positive regard caused quite a bit of controversy.
We’ve walked hand-in-hand with many we work with as they’ve
departed their respective movements and believe wholehearted-
ly that “de-radicalization” work is not as much about instructing
individuals as it is creating opportunities for them to engage in
new networks, networks built on antithetical principles to hate
and extremism but that offer the same sense of meaning, signifi-
cance, purpose and identity extremists offer their recruits.

As part of that, we’ve established a SAVE-Hate (Society Against

Violent Extremism and Hate) network, a network of former ex-
tremists, survivors of extremism, activists and professionals
that provide support to individuals we work with but that also
represent a new community those we work with can find immedi-
ate compassion and belonging from. However, it has been truly
unfortunate that many of those we’ve worked with have been
lambasted and accused of feigning (particularly by those once in
their shoes) since we launched the first issue of
Ctrl+Hate+Del-Hate. We emphasize that you learn best by doing,
and as a publication dedicated to documenting the insider sto-
ries of those we work with, this issue continues in that vein, re-
gardless of expected criticism. In fact, the articles in this edition
are geared toward expanding the discussion around immediate
disengagement, as opposed to full-fledged “deradicalization.”

In this edition’s lead article, Matt Heimbach, previously declared

the ‘future face of white nationalism’ by the Southern Poverty
Law Center after Charlottesville in 2017, details his recent de-
parture from the movement and conveys important realizations
that highlighted the counterproductive consequences of his pre-
vious actions. It is his first public statement after disengaging,
and while many may be weary, we ask you to read his words with
an open-mind. There are few that know the far-right better than
Matt, and we are honored to have him.

Acacia Dietz, formerly a female propagandist for the National So-

cialist Movement also offers her first account of leaving the
far-right and comments on the struggles of early disengagement
and how participating with the Light Upon Light
Ctrl+Alt+Del-Hate method for personal and collective transfor-
mation has assisted her in the process.
Additionally, we’re launching a prisoner pen-pal initiative for inmates across the United
States with far right-wing extremist charges. To launch that, Frank Meeink partnered with
Jeff Schoepp and Matt Heimbach to pen ‘Free on the Inside: An Open Letter to Those Incar-
cerated for Far-Right Wing Extremism.” In it, they invite inmates to engage with our
SHIFT-Hate (Support and Help for Individuals and Families Touched by Hate) peer-to-peer
intervention program, where Frank Meeink is our lead interventionist for far-right partici-
pants. If readers want to participate in the initiative please feel free to reach out.

In another piece, I comment on the rising concern for domestic far-right wing terrorism
and put it in the context of the War on Terror. I argue that while the need to address rising
extreme far-right wing violence is apparent, we must not replicate mistakes similar to
those we made after September 11, 2001, many of which created the domestic socioeco-
nomic conditions from which extremism often protrudes. Additionally, doing so with the
far-right, will only contribute to the global jihadist movement’s war of attrition, or “bleed
America to bankruptcy” plan.

Daryl Davis, renowned African American jazz musician and race relations expert who has
pulled over 200 people from far-right wing movements, gives us an article on the impor-
tance of dialogue and engagement, titling it ‘The Most Powerful Weapon in the World.’ At
the same time, Jeff Schoepp, former commander of the National Socialist Movement
(NSM) gives us a first-hand account of Daryl’s influence on him. Our interview in this edi-
tion is with Bradley Galloway, former white supremacist, and one of our SAVE-Hate net-
work members and peer-to-peer service providers, discusses the difficulties of being a
public ‘former’ extremist.

Meanwhile, there remains much work to do, and we’d be honored to include you in it. To
contact us please feel free to do so through the LightUponLight.Online website.
Two days after my arrest, realizing that I had to do something to avoid taking my own life in some demented ver-
sion of seppuku, I slunk into the back of my first Alcoholics Anonymous meeting. My life changed forever.

I had gotten used to being an outcast over the years, being kicked out of churches and civic organizations, and
being fired from jobs for my political beliefs. Over the years, being a despised outsider had become an uncom-
fortable yet familiar reality for my everyday life. In Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) I found people who knew who I
was, what my views were, and yet loved and supported me unconditionally despite all of that. We were a motley
crew from different backgrounds but almost entirely working class, and I found a sense of solidarity there that I
hadn’t known before in my life.

When things got bad in white nationalism, people always turned on one another. There is no solidarity in that
movement, shown by the implosion of every single organization after a leader dies or exits in one way or anoth-
er. In AA I found people that didn’t turn their backs on me when I fell off the wagon or came up lacking in some
way. Above all, I could finally be weak in front of other people. I could get the brotherly support to help me push
through the shakes, frustration, and ups and downs of beginning not just recovery from alcoholism, but recovery
from my previously held political beliefs that nearly were the death of me.

Still unready to fully begin my ideological recovery, in late 2018 I joined the National Socialist Movement (NSM).
But my heart just wasn’t in it. After my arrest, antifascists and Leftists had reached out to me, often expressing
more love and support than I’d ever received from the white nationalist movement, despite having sacrificed
nearly everything for it. I began reading books they suggested, about Marxism, anarchism, and socialism. The
influence from people outside of the closed off community that is white nationalism in America were planting
seeds, both intellectually and personally, that were beginning to take root.

I’d always been an odd duck in American white nationalism, with my disdain for the American empire and com-
passion for people of color. I recall a heated debate with a Klansmen over my “radical” notion that Black people
have souls. After the shooting at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church, I went to Charleston, SC to
lay flowers and attend several peace vigils, publicly condemning the massacre. My writing and rhetoric always
had an anti-imperialist bent, earning me the label of “secret Marxist” and “Russian plant” from certain factions
of the movement.

With a newly heightened awareness of the economic struggles plaguing every community, I no longer saw
myself fitting in anywhere in the movement at all. I drafted my resignation to the NSM. The same day I was pub-
licly fired for being “a communist.” The shoe fit, I guess.

After the NSM debacle, I tried a few more times to put my foot back into the movement, but my heart just
wouldn’t go with it. Every time I found myself less and less engaged. I was tired, I was working on my own recov-
ery. But besides that, I had become convinced that I needed to be a part of something bigger, for the whole of
humanity’s sake. My last engagement with the movement was helping establish a charity to provide assistance
to prisoners, but I later resigned.

While I’ve been off the public stage for awhile, something I don’t mind because it is nice to be able to go to
Wal-Mart or out to dinner with my wife without confrontation, I feel the need to say something now. In the past
year, we have seen numerous terror attacks against people of color, and dozens of arrests of white nationalists
for discussing, or planning, violent acts. As a society, modern America is about as nervous as a long tailed cat
in a room full of rocking chairs, and the uptick in violence is only putting us closer to a breakdown.

I now feel like I have a responsibility to try to reduce violence in our society, however I can. Luckily, it isn’t a
heroic act to shoot people praying in a mosque or plotting to kill fellow working class people who you disagree
with. I’m mentally and psychologically exhausted seeing the names and faces of so many young men arrested
for playing revolution or feeling driven to commit horrendous acts. I’m kept up at night thinking about the long
lists of victims of attacks carried out, and the videos of their heartbroken family members trying to make sense
of the senseless.
If you or anybody you know has been touched or affected by the hate of anther or
by a hate-based movement in any way, please call our 24/7 Helpline: 

202-486-8633
parallelnetworks@pnetworks.org 
The greatest weapon known to man to successfully
dismantle such things as fear, ignorance, violence and
racism among others, is the least expensive weapon
in the world. It is free, and yet it remains the most over-
looked and least used.
This weapon goes by a few names such as: "civil dis-
course," "dialogue," "conversation," and just plain old
"talking." It is equally important to listen to the other
person, as it is for you to speak. In a country whose
ego prides itself on being the greatest and strongest
nation on the face of the Earth, the United States, is
quickly gaining a reputation as needing to be renamed
the Divided States and its infrastructure is becoming
weakened by either not using or misusing this power-
ful weaponry.
For a nation that lists its first and primary Constitution-
al Right as The First Amendment - Freedom of
Speech, we stand "Guilty As Charged" as hypocrites.
We all too often choose to speak down in whispers
The greatest weapon known to man to successfully or
remain silent when we should speak up, unless of
course we are talking about someone other than our-
selves.
Why is it, every time two foreign nations are about to
come to blows with another nation, or are on the brink
of a civil war within itself due to internal conflict, we
[the U.S.] will trip over itself trying to step in to be the
first nation to broker and moderate a summit between
the two foreign parties in conflict?
When we succeed in averting armed attacks or we are
able to negotiate a ceasefire, we pat ourselves on the
back as the greatest peacemakers and advocates for
conflict resolution.
Yet, when it comes to our own nation's internal strife
over race, religion, or political choice, we all too quickly
assume an "Us vs. Them" posture and mentality and
either shutting down or shouting down any
communication with those with whom we disagree.
Even those who choose to remain neutral are told,
"If you're not with me, then you're against me."
These attitudes rapidly lead to more dissension
when the initial problem could have been ad-
dressed and potentially solved or at the very least,
mitigated through civil discourse. This is the hypoc-
risy in which the inhabitants of the Greatest Nation
of Free Speech reside.
On December 15th, 2020, we will have had this
great weapon known as Freedom of Speech for 229
years when it as first introduced to our Constitution
through the Bill of Rights on that date in 1791. For
the last two-and-a-third centuries, we have chosen
to test its limits, stretch its protection, and push its
envelope as far up to and over the line as possible
for negative gains such as burning our flag, ex-
pressing discontent with our government, using ra-
cially charged and insensitive language. We have
been given the right to hate, but not the right to hurt.
Ironically, one exception to Freedom of Speech is
we are not permitted to yell, "Fire," in a crowded
theatre unless there is truly a fire. The
well-thought-out reasoning behind this is
the fact that if someone was to utter this word and
there was not a fire, it would most likely incite a riot.
In layman terms, unknowing people would perceive
a dangerous and potentially deadly situation for
themselves and try to escape the threat of being
burned alive. In doing so, a panic is created and
people trying to escape the alleged fire may trample
over one another and cause serious injuries and
possible death in their own interest of self-preserva-
tion and protection. Obviously, if the yelling of "Fire,"
in the crowded theatre was true, most people would
be excused for behaving in a riotous panic, despite
the announcement before the show, "In the event of
an emergency, walk, do not run, to the nearest exit."
Interestingly, but not surprisingly, I have seen the
Ku Klux Klan march and announce to crowds of
Blacks and Jews, "Ship the niggers back to Africa,"
and, "Gas the kikes, six million is not enough!" How-
ever the well-thought-out crafters of laws to prohibit
us from shouting, "Fire," in a crowded theatre of,
"Hijack," in an airport sans fire or hijacking, either ri-
diculously think that will not incite a riot, or out of
racist and antisemitic feelings, simply don't care
and choose to allow the ensuing, inevitable violent
clash to happen.
Speaking of fire, Freedom of Speech can be a double-edged sword and used like fire, either for good or with
evil, depending upon the intent of the swordsman. I can take fire and heat your home, or I can take fire and burn
it down. If we intend to be the greatest country in the world, then we need to be on the right edge of the sword.
Let's be free to use Freedom of Speech to effect positive change in our society, as we think about other societies
that are denied the right to freely express themselves. In some countries, speaking out against certain things
can lead to legal imprisonment and even death due to the laws of those countries.

More foreigners are bilingual and even trilingual than most Americans. They are able to travel to pretty much
anywhere in the world and communicate with total strangers from different cultures because of their willingness
to not only speak different languages, but their willingness to simply speak.

Most Americans on the other hand, only speak English and too many of us don't even speak it with our fellow
Americans who even share the same culture, when it comes to perhaps not sharing the same racial, political,
or religious viewpoints. How many of you avoided having Thanksgiving Dinner with your family last year or have
friends who avoided this get together with their families because someone in the family voted for Trump and
they didn't, or they disagree with how illegal immigration is being handled at the border, or are on opposite sides
of any number of controversial topics?

The fact of the matter is, we Americans spend too much time talking about the other person, talking at the other
person, or talking past the other person. We would be 100% more effective if we spent just half that time talking
with the other person.

We Americans invented the ability to talk with astronaut Neil Armstrong while he was walking on the Moon. We
Americans invented the technology of the cell phone and email, which allow us to talk to people anywhere on
Earth. How is it then, that we Americans can talk to people as far away as the Moon or any distance away on
Earth, but yet can't talk to the person right next door because he or she is of a different skin color, worships the
same God in a different religion, is a different culture, or sexual persuasion, or ethnicity?

Our technology has moved into Space Age times while our ideology remains with Stone Age minds. As a Black
man who has spent almost 35 years practicing civil discourse, having conversations and dialogue and just plain
talking with White supremacists, I have witnessed positive change by effecting a balance of talking and listening
to those with whose ideology I may disagree. This has resulted in changed ideologies and my acquisition of
many robes and hoods and steadfast friendships.

Remembe
Remember, when two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. They may raise their voices and to make a
point, but at least they are still talking. It is when the talking ceases, that the ground becomes fertile for violence.
So keep the conversation going.

Our society can only become one of two things: (1) that which we sit back and let it become, or (2) that which
we stand up and make it become. We must ask ourselves the question: "Do I want to sit back and see what my
society becomes? Or, do I want to stand up and make my society become what I want to see? I have chosen
Option #2.

Speaking of technology. In the 20th century, if we wanted to know about a movie, directions to a restaurant, a
phone number, etc., we called people like friends who saw the movie, the hostess at the restaurant, the 411 op-
erator, or any live human being, be it stranger or friend who we thought could help us, with their opinion of the
movie or directions to their restaurant. Now living in the 21st century, we have gotten away from communication
with our fellow human beings and more and more, we are relying on Artificial Intelligence by asking our new
friends with names like Alexa, Siri, Google and Bixby. These new friends provide us with relatively accurate
facts. But as AI technology continues to rapidly develop and one day reaches a point where it is able to provide
opinions and defend its opinions, if we don't learn how to civilly communicate with human beings we are really
going to need to reconsider our position as the greatest country on Earth when we shut down our conversations
with our AI friends or stand in our living room yelling at the box on the table because it disagrees with us.
If you pay attention, you will realize whatever laws
govern the universe have an interesting way of
shining through in times of difficulty. It was not until
after I left the National Socialist Movement (NSM),
having led it for over 20 years, that I realized the
role small interactions can play in generating trans-
formation in the long term. For example, one of the
best people I have had the privilege to meet is Daryl
Davis, an African American and therefore a
member of one of the communities I once vilified.
Daryl is evidence that the laws surrounding empa-
thy and compassion can truly plant seeds of hope
and change, even if their harvest is not immediately
apparent.
Daryl has what some might call an ‘interesting’
hobby. For the last 30 years Daryl has been be-
friending members of the Ku Klux Klan. So far, he
has contributed to over 200 KKK members leaving
the Klan and giving up their robes. Although Daryl
did not directly contribute to me realizing that my
hate was misguided, his upstanding character influ-
enced me. Most importantly, though, he has contin-
ued to confirm that most everything I believed in re-
garding race and ethnicity was wrong.
The first time Daryl and I met was in 2015, when he
interviewed me for the documentary ‘Accidental
Courtesy’. The film was about how he befriends
KKK members and white supremacists. When our
paths first crossed in Montgomery, Alabama, I had
no idea who Daryl was or his unusual hobby. All I
knew was that I was going to be interviewed for a
an old school music café. There were frames with
documentary film. We filmed at Chris’ Hot Dogs,
various pictures of musicians all over the walls and
Hank Williams used to hang out at the restaurant.
As Daryl and I started talking about music and other
things, I realized that we had more in common than
I initially thought. Most of the conversation revolved
around music and what kinds of music we both
liked. Little did I know that Daryl was quite the musi-
cian himself and that I would learn something new.
After mentioning that I was a fan of rock and roll,
Daryl asked me, “Do you realize that rock was in-
vented by black musicians?” My immediate re-
sponse was, “Oh we are not going to go there are
we?” We both laughed a bit and then Daryl asked,
“Well who invented rock then?” Immediately I
thought I had this one and said “Elvis Presley.”
Daryl let out a chuckle and then went on to explain
to me that even Elvis Presley contributed the inven-
tion of rock and roll to black musicians such as
Chuck Berry and Fast Domino. I had to give it to
him, he really did know more about the history of
rock than I did. This was something that had never
happened before. I had never been somewhere
representing the movement and have somebody
know more about rock music than I did, especially
not someone from ‘the other race.’
Contrary to popular belief, music plays a heavy role
in right-wing extremism. That day Daryl and I found
common interests. What struck me most about
Daryl was his honesty. He was not only very
straightforward, but also very personable. Daryl
was street-smart, too.
My fiance, at the time, accompanied me to this in-
terview and Daryl noticed that whatever conversa-
tions we were having, she was NOT the girl to ask
certain questions around. Right there it hit me: this
guy was on the ball. He picked up on little things the
average person would not have unless they were
nuanced. I was very impressed. I remember leaving
that meeting thinking, “Wow, this guy really is an in-
credible person.”
During the interview, he told me about what hap-
pened when he was in the Boy Scouts. Daryl was
only a child when he first learned about the cruelty
of racism. He was carrying a flag and marching with
his all-white Cub Scout troop in a local parade,
when he was struck with rocks and bottles thrown
from the crowd. It was at this moment Daryl asked,
“How can someone hate me when they don’t know
me?”
gratitude and further change.
While still in the movement, I saw on the news that
Daryl had gone to a sentencing hearing to support
a KKK wizard, Richard Preston. This spoke vol-
umes to me about Daryl’s character and his willing-
ness to bend over backwards to help others.
Now, a little over a year later, Daryl was giving me
hope and showing me that there was life after the
movement. Daryl’s sincerity and authenticity were a
wake-up call. Some of the people who were the
kindest to me were those who I once dehumanized
the most. I reflected on how my worst experiences
had actually involved white people. This was anoth-
er reminder that everything I had once thought and
believed in, was really the opposite of the truth.
Daryl was a human being. His kindness, compas-
sion and unconditional love made the whole disen-
gagement process much easier. Daryl’s support
has been crucial, not just in my deradicalization, but
in my personal journey in life after the movement.

A simple concept that one would assume literally
anyone would be able to understand. That is except
when you’re a neo-Nazi. Daryl explained to me how
as a child it bothered him that someone hated him
without even knowing him. To my surprise it both-
ered me as well. Yet, I tried to ignore the feeling.
That is what happens when one is in an extremist
movement, you try to push everyone and every-
thing that disagrees with your preconceived notions
to the side.
When others have doubted my sincerity Daryl has
vouched for me and verbalized his support of me
having a public voice. For example, recently we
were in Pittsburgh filming for a documentary along-
side some other former right-wing extremists. The
reporter asked me about accusations that I hadn’t
actually left the NSM and that I was not sincere in
leaving the movement. I understood the inquiry as I
realize it has been a question on the minds of many.

It was not until after leaving the movement that

Daryl and I got back in touch. Around that same
time a few more people were reaching out, but the
way Daryl reached out to me was so… genuine. His
first main concern was my personal safety and
well-being. Daryl asked whether I was safe, wheth-
er I was okay. “Is there anything I can do? What are
your plans? What are you doing next?” I explained
to him that I was planning on speaking out and that
I was hoping to get an opportunity to do so publicly.
Immediately he offered to help. Daryl offered to
speak to some of his contacts and told me that he
wanted us to work and speak together. I really felt
great about it, just the fact that he remembered me
made quite the impression. After all, the only inter-
action between us before had been that one time
when I was still in the NSM. The fact that Daryl was
willing to help me find work was really meaningful.
My prejudice disappeared, paving the way for
Essentially I had been the ‘boogeyman’ for different
organizations for over two decades. It was only nat-
ural that not everyone, especially the general
public, would understand the implications of leaving
an extremist movement and speaking out against it.
Leaving the movement, going quietly away, is one
thing, but there is no going back when one starts
speaking in opposition to the movement. It really is
that serious, so accusations of insincerity can be
very damaging to anyone who is trying to leave any
extremist movement.
Right away Daryl spoke up claiming that I was
indeed all the way out, that the accusations and
comments were nonsense. Having someone like
Daryl vouch for me is beyond meaningful. He un-
derstands the nuances, the difficulties of my deradi-
calization process and the insights that I can bring
to others.
The further I continue on this journey I realize that
Daryl is an example of the power behind engaging
with individuals that one would otherwise demonize.
I know the Klan as I have spoken with different fac-
tions of the KKK all across the country. The fact that
someone of another race, like Daryl, is able to be at
Klan ceremonies, that he shows respect and is re-
spected, goes against all of their ideology and be-
liefs. This is not something that just any random
person can achieve. Daryl certainly has a gift. What
people like him are able to do is burst the bubble
that one lives in when they are in a movement like
the Klan or the NSM. That “bubble” is the prison of
your own mind, an echo-chamber of sorts. Even if
there is an African American colleague at work or a
Hispanic neighbor, you dare not befriend them
when engaged in the white nationalist movement.
Instead, you isolate and will not give yourself a
chance to get to know these other individuals. How-
ever, when individuals, like Daryl, are able to show
their humanity by being themselves, it resonates. It
breaks clichés better than any class, better than
someone saying, “You’re wrong”.
Life experiences are the most effective tool when it
comes to breaking down stereotypes and ideology.
They go way further than any studies or books. Dia-
logue is very important, so is keeping doors open, to
promote both disengagement and deradicalization.
I have seen it, and so have other ‘formers’ , like
myself, who left an extremist movement. Most im-
portantly, dialogue helps break down preconceived
notions regarding life outside the movement.
When I was still in the NSM and struggling with
wanting to disengage, one of the misconceptions
that I held was that no one in society would be will-
ing to give me a second chance. That no one would
listen or care. When you’re in an extremist move-
ment you feel like the world is against you, and that
even if you leave extremism the other side will still
be vicious. You think that society will make you
grovel and beg…but Daryl, of all people, showed
me that was not reality. Society as a whole has been
quite the opposite. Each day the truth comes out
more and it’s opposite to what we were once taught
in the movement. I’m learning a lot out here.
On a daily basis I am learning something new from
everyone I work with, from all of those at Light Upon
Light, from Daryl, from other formers. Those of us
who have been part of any extremist movement
were once some of the least tolerant individuals.
Yet, our stories, our understanding, and our capaci-
ty to heal ourselves and others can be very inspir-
ing. However, this is a two-way street. This journey
is about giving to others, learning from others and
healing with those individuals by tapping into the
positive energy that comes out of even the smallest
interactions with other people.
For example, Daryl and I will be speaking together
soon on stage for the first time. I hope it inspires
people to see that Daryl is not just an example for
the klansman, the white supremacist, or the white
nationalist, but that he is an example for humanity
as a whole. Compassion and empathy are things
 we all need to learn. If everyone saw things more like Daryl, if they had that outlook and were more open and
understanding, it would help erase a lot of the misconceptions and bias. Simply through dialogue and search
for common ground change is possible. This is my mission now: to lay old biases and misconceptions to rest
and go forward in peacebuilding.

Second, I hope to encourage others in any extremist movement or flirting with hateful ideologies to reach out.
For anyone who is interested, Daryl always makes time to talk to others, as do I. We both make time for
people, help them disengage and then take it from there. I am proof that you do not have to embrace Commu-
nism or become Antifa in order to have a second chance. Leaving the movement is not the end. It is a new
beginning. There are others who
have taken that leap, and you will
not be alone.

I now honor the hand that reached

out for me when I needed it by ex-
tending that hand to others who
are struggling. I do so because I
believe karma moves in two direc-
tions. If we act virtuously, the seed
we plant will have a positive
impact. I can make amends. De-
spite my beliefs at the time, Daryl
chose to recognize my humanity
and in return I showed him respect.
I didn’t know it at the time, but that
planted a seed of hope which
eventually helped create a much
unexpected friendship.

Now I ask all of you reading this ar-

ticle, perhaps you can reflect on a
similar situation in your own life.
Did you ignore the signs? Which
seeds will you seek to plant in
yourselves and others? They
always come back around.
LightUponLight.Online
Dear Sir:
I hope this finds you well despite the current circumstance. We’re reaching out having learned about your
case and do so on behalf of an organization that helps individuals leave extremism, that provides assistance
to those interested in doing so, and that aims to transition their energies in a more positive direction. While
we understand that you may not even hold yourself as an extremist, we hope that you might be interested in
corresponding with us to learn more about who we are and what we do.

We understand that conviction and passion for a cause often ends, like addiction, in jails, institutions and
death. Not unlike you, we know this from experience, and while you may not necessarily be interested, we’re
reaching out knowing that imprisonment often brings about anxiety and stress that can wreak havoc on
personal wellbeing, that it offers little in the way of rehabilitation, but that in every darkness lie silver lining
and that incarceration also gives people time to pause, reflect and come to new realizations.

I guess by way of introduction, we should tell you a bit about us. One of us, Frank Meeink, was a former
Neo-Nazi skinhead leader; another the former head of the Traditionalist Workers Party, Matt Heimbach, once
deemed as the ‘future face of white nationalism in the United States’ and yet another Jeff Schoep, former
commander of the National Socialist Movement. We were each incarcerated or charged legally in the past
for actions related to our involvement in right-wing extremist movements. Therefore, we know the hardships
that come with the loss of freedom and anxiety of legal trouble. But we also know that true internal freedom
can be lost in society when one becomes fused with the groupthink that drives extremist movements. While
difficult, incarceration can liberate one from those shackles; no bars nor cage can prevent an individual from
finding internal peace and solitude, or from planting the seeds of transformation.

Our own incarcerations were part and parcel of our leaving the movements we once belonged to. We now
work together, in part, to support others that are experiencing the same. We know that incarceration presents
an opportunity for deep reflection, an opportunity to admit that one was trekking down a path of misguidance,
and also to transition the passion and concern extremists often possess in a more productive direction.
One thing is certain, incarceration is a time of high anxiety and rapidly firing emotions and thoughts. It can
also be a period of loneliness and despair with deep-rooted pain and frustration. That can hinder change,
and so we offer non-judgmental support and private communication during this difficult period. We need to
emphasize that we don’t judge. How can we? We’ve been there. We work with an organization,
LightUponLight.Online that is composed of former extremists, survivors of extremism, and a collective of
people dedicated to building an empathy and consciousness-focused approach to preventing and
combating hate and extremism of all varieties and confronting the underlying issues that drive rampant
polarization, division and divide today.

We don’t take a traditional approach in our efforts. We recognize that many of the grievances and rationale
for believing in radical, or extremist worldviews are real and that much commentary on “extremism” comes
from media, organizations and individuals that unintentionally promote polarizing, black-and-white and
misinformed perspectives that can belittle and dehumanize and, thereby, further entrench commitment. We
also know that “extremists” see through hypocrisy and bullshit.

It is important to convey that fundamentally we agree with you that there are issues, legitimate grievances
that drove your participation in the movement. The opioid epidemic ravaging working class communities, the
economic impact of globalization, the impact of mass migration, a political class that doesn’t care if members
of your community live or die, and a national foreign policy hijacked by a War on Terror that has steered
resources overseas and away from domestic concern and development. All of these things are real and
impacting the lives of millions of people every single day.

We won’t sugarcoat this situation, but we also won’t tell you that you must ignore these grievances and
legitimate concerns to be treated with dignity and as a human being. Much of what is a deradicalized, “former
extremist” movement consists of cheap theatrics, asking you to disparage your former colleagues and to
delegitimize any and all concern for the wider social issues we mentioned earlier and others. That isn’t us,
and that isn’t what we’re asking. We promote empathy and radical compassion and know that these are
ingredients that others showed us, ingredients crucial to any reconsideration of extremist involvement.

About the worst thing one can be considered right now is a “white supremacist,” and the first question we ask
you to consider is: was it worth it? You likely had good intentions. Maybe you wanted to be a husband, a
father, to attain success in some field of work or study. You certainly sought purpose, meaning and
significance. You weren’t able to accomplish those objectives or the objectives of a movement that has likely
abandoned you. And while it would be easy to believe you are a mere victim of some nefarious plot, we’re
here to tell you that it is far from over, that in every difficulty lies opportunity and that a second chance awaits.
You can still realize whatever dreams you may have had, can develop new ambitions and realize them and
can find significance, purpose and meaning, and even allocate your talent and energy to efforts that seek to
address those grievances that may have propelled you with a different approach. No one person can be
expected to see the entire picture. What we are asking is to perhaps take a moment to reflect on some of the
additional pieces of the puzzle, or the bubble that is “the movement” and what your commitment to it may
have kept you from considering.

Extremist ideologies are pernicious. It seems as if we choose, rationally, to believe in them. In reality,
retrospection often documents that they are largely manifestations of insidious internal shame, lack of
self-worth, fear and insecurity. It is largely projection of internal pain onto an external world that can be cruel
and inconsiderate. Making that connection is tough. It’s also the first step to change.

It really comes down to you needing to reevaluate why and what’s driving you. You still have a chance to
rethink your objectives. Imprisonment alone will not change anyone. Take time to cultivate character,
integrity, positive change, spirituality, you know all those topics spoken about in the movement a lot, but, you
might realize now, hardly ever realized in actual substance and practice. Also think about the positives, about
your talents, your skillset. You must care. No one would be willing to sacrifice for such a radical cause if they
did not. The grievances may be real, but the solutions tend to harm those we claim to be defending more
than the enemies we perceive.
Maybe it’s time to embark on your own personal journey. A new path in life. You’ve been stuck in an ‘us’
journey for way too long – and what has the ‘us’ journey gotten you? The reason we get stuck in the ‘us’ is
because we don’t know how to truly hold compassion for ourselves. In truth, we all have something that we
can bring to the table. If you were willing to be an outcast, to take beatings, to deal with death threats, losing
connection with your family… you are definitely a very driven person. Why not use that to become an agent
of actual change?

The structures of oppression and violence do indeed exist, but the causes of the oppression and violence
found in conspiracy theory and simplistic worldviews are simply false. It cannot be denied that global
inequalities are driven by elitist pursuit of profit and power, that international systems are governed primarily
at the moment by these interests. But it also cannot be denied that “white” communities suffer alongside
countless “communities of color” and ethnic minorities. Every single day tens of thousands of people die of
preventable starvation and disease. Every single day millions of Americans are affected by a prison-
industrial complex. Every single day at least two hundred people in America die of the disease of addiction.
But these issues and others know no color nor demographic and are not the product of some cabal operating
clandestinely to destroy white working class people. They are, much more, a product of lacking compassion
and consciousness in our society.

There are reasons to be angry. Rejecting a system that perpetuates oppression is legitimate. But hate
cannot be combated with a more excessive vein of darkness. Properly identifying the enemy means first of
all finding common ground with those who are also suffering under the same exploitation. The Columbian
Coca-Cola employee who is gunned down by death squads for the crime of trying to organize a union is
su
suffering under the same system that Appalachian coal miners did when they were murdered for the same
supposed “crime.” The Mexican farmer forced out of his home due to Free Trade agreements and sent
searching for a job to feed his family is struggling against the same system as the out of work Detroit
auto-worker or the Wisconsin dairy farmer.

Channeling your rage against other people who are negatively affected by an unjust system only serves to
spread more pain among people who you actually have a lot in common with. There is strength to be found
in solidarity with others who are also suffering. Just look outside of yourself in there. You’ve got so much in
common with people around you who have very different backgrounds. If you really think that you’re not like
the rest of the inmates, wait and see if your public defender treats you any differently. To the system, you and
your fellow inmates are all just interchangeable numbers, a natural resource to be exploited, job security.

One of the biggest myths put forward by so many is that in order to be a citizen of humanity, you must hate
and turn your back on your identity, history, and ancestors. There is a healthy and positive way to stay rooted
in who you are. Every human being has a unique history and identity. These are things that we should
celebrate and have no shame over. You don’t have to hate yourself or your ethnicity to view yourself as part
of the solution.

You’re now feeding the beast that you thought you wanted to kill. It’s the end that befalls most that embark
upon extremism. And if you reflect, you’ll realize that you’ve largely been a pawn, leader of the movement
you belonged to or not. You might remember most vividly now that extremist movements are much more like
catty high-school cafeterias than they are a source of brotherhood and love. You deserve better than a
movement based in reactionary politics. Solidarity scares people in power, in a way that isolated extremists
of any persuasion simply don’t.

So, we thank you for enduring and navigating this letter, for reading to this point. We only ask that you use
this time behind bars as an opportunity to expand your mind and consider communicating with us as you do
so. Many are imprisoned by mental shackles, though they experience physical freedom. Open to new ideas
and education, to different people, to different experiences, and realize that the fight is bigger than what you
initially made it out to be. Pray (if you do) or just turn inwards to try and find something greater than yourself.
Whether it be God, a Higher Power, whatever name you want to give it, it is something that will help align
you. We live in a busy world. Modern America increasingly resembles a scrambled radio signal. It’s hard to
make sense of it all. Meditation and refocusing can really be a first step toward learning who you truly are.
This initiation in your personal journey might also be an opportunity to help you build bridges with people on
the outside, people like us.

We know it’s not easy. You’ve been deceived by a movement you gave your life to. You probably feel
alienated, isolated, depressed, lacking purpose, or even that the whole world outside hates you. We’re here
to tell you that you’re wrong. Yes, you’ve been marginalized for a long time. But that doesn’t mean you don’t
have a voice, nor that nobody is willing to listen.

You’re not alone. We’re here to help you through this. We understand the nuances. We understand the
intricacies of the world and the extremist mindset. We have been in your shoes, and we understand why one
would end up believing in certain causes and living by and for them. If you’ve realized that you want to
transform your life, or are simply open to the prospect, we’re offering you an opportunity to make amends
and a chance to find optimism and hope, to connect with a community dedicated to approaching the problem
of hate and extremism not from the opposite end of the political aisle, but from a higher order of
consciousness than that which created and perpetuates the underlying problems.

You have two options going forward: you can live your life by your reputation or live by your character and
move onward. Reputation is easy. It’s what you tell everybody about yourself, what you want others to think
about you. Your character comes out when you put your head in the pillow at the end of the night and you
think about whether you’ve made everybody around you either better or worse. Reputation tends to be
driven by ego. Live by a concentration on cultivating character and life will gradually change, on its own. It’s
natural law. Cause and effect.

As scary as things are right now, trust us, life is far from over. There’s so much more ahead of you. And
nothing ends simply because you’re there. We ask you not to meekly surrender but to join us, to take the
hard road, to not only help yourself but to help all of humanity in the process. Your involvement in the
movement was a stepping stone to bigger and better things if you choose to view it that way. We need you
as members of a larger community striving to bring justice to our society. Your time in prison is an opportunity
to strengthen your mind, body, and soul; in preparation for the struggle in life that is to come when you’re
released.

We will gladly correspond with you, to dig deeper into some of what your experiences are and have been.
We will gladly support you. You’re not alone. Paths change. Ours did, and every day we strive to continue
realizing growth. We were once in your shoes. Pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional. We simply just ask
you to try and become a better human being every day, and we will help make you part of the solution, not
the problem. We hope to hear back from you soon and pray this finds you well.

Sincerely,
Frank Meeink, former skinhead
Matt Heimbach, former white nationalist
Jeff Schoep, former neo-nazi
I recently left the National Socialist Movement (NSM),
one of the largest neo-Nazi organizations in the United
States. Leaving the far-right movement was a process,
not a single event. During my time in the NSM, I had
become part of the legal corporate hierarchy. In addi-
tion to being part of the legal entity, I managed the or-
ganization’s website, did graphic design work, social
media, and performed various other administrative
duties. Without even realizing it I had become ex-
tremely intertwined with the organization and because
of the legal position I held, leaving wasn’t as simple as
putting in a resignation letter. The corporate legalities
had me bound to NSM. Thankfully, in June of 2019 the
National Socialist Movement corporation was dis
solved. I was free at last and felt as if a weight was
lifted. In many ways it was a relief to close that chapter
in my life. In other ways, I was numb and unsure of
what the future would hold.
For two years, I had shut myself off from the entire
world scrubbing any remanence of my life before the
NSM. Essentially, I did my best to become a ghost in
hopes that if I was doxxed my family would be protect-
ed from any of the fall out. My entire life revolved
around the movement. The more involved I became in
the NSM, the more I isolated myself from the outside
world. Leaving the movement meant completely start-
ing over - alone.
Although almost a year has passed since I left the
far-right, at times it feels like it was only yesterday.
When I first walked away from the movement, I was
still telling myself that I was never completely involved.
There were things I didn’t agree with, such as the
racism and the anti-Semitism. Since I didn’t believe in
the ideology as a whole, it became easier for me to
justify my involvement and to compartmentalize it in
my mind. At first the racism and anti-Semitism would
bother me, but as time went on it became a lot easier
to ignore. After a while I was so numb that it didn’t even
phase me anymore.
Over time I have been able to come to terms with cer-
tain realizations, such as the effects of my involvement
in the movement. I helped spread a message and
ideology across the world over social media, web-
sites, and podcasts. It didn’t matter whether or not I
personally believed in the whole ideology, I still did
it. Those breakthrough moments happen every day.
It wasn’t a figment of my imagination, nor was it
something that happened to someone else. It was
not another person, it was me, I did that. Admitting
this to myself or to others is not an easy task, but it
is crucial to do in order for positive change to occur.
I do not know if I will ever really know how much
damage or how many lives were affected because
of my choices and actions. It is important to allow
one’s self to have and feel regret, however, I do my
best not to get “stuck”. If you allow yourself to get
stuck in regret it can become a very dark place.
With time I have come to realize that it is important
to remember I cannot change what has already
been done. I cannot change what I did, but I can
change what I do next. The past can’t be undone,
but I can choose where I go from here.
Many who leave extremist movements are eager to
help others out of the same hell they just left. It is
not wrong to want to help people. I am one of those
individuals, but those pure intentions can be tricky.
If I don’t take the time to process and heal within
myself, then how can I expect to help anyone else?
Along this journey I have realized the importance of
going through the entire process of disengagement
and deradicalization. This process isn’t easy and at
times seems very surreal. Starting over after leav-
ing the far-right movement wasn’t just about physi-
cally starting a new life with new people, it also
meant emotionally starting over. Healing from the
inside out.
After leaving the NSM, someone once asked what
my most memorable moment was when I was in the
movement. I had never been asked that question. It
took a minute for me to really think about an
answer. Do you know what I discovered? I discov-
ered that my most memorable moment was when I
made the decision to leave the movement and
found my own voice again. Enough was enough
and I was going to make the decision for myself to
walk away at all costs. No matter what, this is what
I was going to do. Finally, I made the choice to stand
up for myself refusing to go with the flow any longer.
There were no longer any excuses, no more won-
dering what would happen if I had to start over.
When I chose to stand up and leave the movement,
that was the moment I found myself again.
I am not the only person who has been in the move-
ment and has been torn. It is more common than
most would want to admit. Many people are torn in
one way or another at some stage of being in any
extremist movement. It starts with that little nagging
feeling in the back of your thoughts. Something
doesn’t seem quite right. Then comes the question-
ing and the realization of being torn between two
worlds. This cause, this movement, has become
your entire life. Your entire world revolves around
the ‘cause’. Then the “ah-ha” moment hits as you
realize you are lost. If you leave, where will you go?
Will ‘normal’ society accept you back, or will you be
left out in the cold with nothing? I have been out for
almost a year and it’s still not easy. The hardest
thing is the judgement that comes from both within
the world you just left and society that still views you
as a villain. Many within society are believers in
second chances, but not everyone. Even so,
making the choice of leaving has been so much
more rewarding than anything in the movement.
Leaving was a tipping point for me, the moment
where I could finally find myself again and continue
my own journey. I’m still the person that questions
everything, but now I do it from a more grounded
sense of self. I now realize what that is, the impor-
tance of what that means for me as a person. I can
still hold true to myself. I can still be a very passion-
ate person and care for people. The difference is
that it’s directed in the right direction.
The fact that I am now able to think for and about
myself, learning what self-care is, is huge. Many
times ‘self-care’ tends to have a negative connota-
tion, but in reality it is a “normal” healthy part of life.
I’m learning what inside myself needs mended, and
it’s not always easy. Sometimes the immediate goal
is as simple as waking up and making it through the
da
day. It can be a challenge to just take life a day at a
time, but now I have dreams and goals, I have
hope. I’m even thinking about finishing my school-
ing in the long term.
One day, I hope to use my experiences and insights
I have gained through these experiences to help
others, whether they are in or out of the movement.
I would love to be able to provide insight for those
seeking to leave extremists movements. Equally
important, however, is that my ‘been there, done
that’ experiences can also help give society the in-
sight of not only what can bring one out, but also of
what will push someone back into extremism. A lot
of times, society feels like oncea person is out,
that there is no going back to extremism. This is not re-
ality. Disengagement from extremism is just the first
step.
Many times I use the analogy of a recovering drug
addict. When a person first comes out of addiction soci-
ety welcomes them with open arms, gives them a hug
and pat on the back and says, “Well done! I’m glad you
made it out.” Unfortunately society then leaves it there
and the recovering addict is left wondering what to do
now and is unable to properly acclimate back into
“normal” life. If a person is unable to cope in a “normal”
sphere then they will just return to what was once their
“comfort zone” (i.e. drugs/addiction). It is the same with
a former who is leaving extremism. First step is disen-
gagement then the deradicalization process, but many
times individuals are left out in the cold with no resourc-
es or support. This can be very detrimental to one’s re
covery while trying to acclimate back into regular
society and regular life. Inadvertently society then
leaves those individuals behind.
If any of my readers are struggling with leaving the
movement, my advice: Keep questioning whatever it
is inside of you that doesn’t feel right. Keep question-
ing it until you find the answer. Force yourself to pro-
cess what is going on around you. Every day when
you wake up you are in fight mode: You are fighting
society, fighting each other, and constantly fighting a
battle that never seems to be able to be won. Truth be
told, you are in a war, but the war is not with the world
around you. If you’re honest with yourself you’ll real-
ize that 9/10 times the battle you’re fighting is within
yourself. Once you are able to see this then you real-
ize that the external issues are a lot easier to handle
and manage.
To those who have disengaged and/or are in the pro-
cess of leaving an extremist movement: Talk to other
people. Talk to those who have been where you are,
other formers who are out. Finding a support network
can be difficult, but it is crucial. For me, finding Paral-
lel Networks and Light Upon Light turned my world
around. It is not just a network of former extremists. It
is a network of all different types of individuals and
support. They gave me the time to decompress and
the space to start processing everything. This has
made a huge difference in my life. Finding this new
network didn’t take away the difficulties, but it has
continued to make the process all the more reward-
ing.
William Goldman once said, “Life is pain, highness.
Anyone who says differently is selling something.” We
live in a broken world with broken people, but that’s
why we need each other. With time and patience it
can be mended, but the process is not painless. Pain
isn’t something to be feared. Ever heard of growing
pains? Before you know it, you will look back and real-
ize you’ve come a long way. The journey will have its
ups and downs, but it will get easier as you go along.
letsseelabs
’
An intimate group of us dove into uncharted territory together. Our storytellers
offered us emotional and raw reflections on their compelling journeys of looking
inward to source change in the world. What lies at the intersection of
self-realization, the unknown, and divisive societal issues?
 An Interview with
Brad Galloway,
Former White Supremacist
Some new approaches in the realm of prevention
imply looking back into the person’s history. The
Prevention Continuum project, which I worked on,
looked back into the person’s life to try and identify
potential risk factors. That raises the question of
whether anybody can be radicalized into violent
extremism. And I do agree. I think that this could
happen to anybody, there’s no specific person who
becomes radicalized. That’s also the prevention
space, learning about all those different cases and
how people become part of these movements,
whether it be a social thing or searching for identity
and belonging… There’s many different factors,
and they all play a different role depending on the
person. The more we can learn about them, the
more we can prevent. Plus, there’s the intervention
space, through which we can disrupt the process
and preventing people from actually becoming in-
volved.

With regard to countering violent extremism

(CVE), the field is very broad and it depends on the
kind of extremism you’re dealing with, and what
aspects you want to focus on. There’s different
CVE spaces: counter-messaging, counter-narra-
tives… There’s also anti-racism efforts that are
happening, a lot of academic research focused
precisely on how we counter violent extremism.
The North American CVE field is very large, there’s
a lot that is known. However, what still plays the
most prominent role is trying to understand who
these people are, why they joined these groups,
and how can prevent and counter that while we
learn from the narratives and experiences of
people that were once involved in extremism.
If you or anybody you know has been touched or affected by the hate of anther or
by a hate-based movement in any way, please call our 24/7 Helpline: 

202-486-8633
parallelnetworks@pnetworks.org