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Delgamuukw 1986 01 21 Commission Evidence Jessie Sterritt PDF
Delgamuukw 1986 01 21 Commission Evidence Jessie Sterritt PDF
STERRITT, J.,
In Chief,
Mr. Rush
VIOLET SMITH,
Gitksan Interpreter,
Previously Sworn.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Now, during that period were white people allowed to go
to the reserve?
THE INTERPRETER: She doesn't know.
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION
BY MR. RUSH:
Q The question that I just asked you, Jessie, my question
was, were white people allowed to go to the reserve
during the time that the ban on the feast was in place:
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
THE WITNESS: No, just law people that were connected with
the law.
THE WITNESS: When they refer to the fishing places there are
really two that belong to 'Wiigoob'l. There are two
spots where they fish, one is where they use the dip net
and the other one is where they use just the ordinary
net, so there are really two spots that 'Wiigoob'l owns
on this side of the canyon.
Q You have told us that on the other side of the canyon
there are fishing spots belonging to the House of
Gyedimgaldo'o, is that right?
A Yes.
Q How many fishing spots are there on the other side of
the canyon that belong to Gyedimgaldo'o?
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
THE WITNESS: They just have the one fishing spot where they
fish different ways, one for gaffing and the net. Fish
trap.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Now, can you tell us how long these fishing sites have
been in the Houses of 'Wiigoob'l and Gyedimgaldo'o?
THE INTERPRETER: As far as she knows they've always had it.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Are the fishing sites used today?
A No, they haven't been in use.
Q Why is that?
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
THE WITNESS: When the bridge was built they changed the way
the salmon came, they blew out a rock there and ever
since then there has been no fishing.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Since that rock was blown out did members of your house
go to another fishing spot to fish?
A Gyedimgaldo'o has a fishing site at Gwinxsigiibiltxw, at
Mission Creek.
60
STERRITT, J.
In Chief
Mr. Rush
BY MR. RUSH:
Q You talked about some territory that was in the Awiijii
and Bowser Lake area before?
A Yes.
Q Is this part of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o, this
territory?
A We all use the same territory, Biiniks, Gyedimgaldo'o.
Q And 'Wi igoob'1?
A 'Wi igoob'1.
Q Now, the territory that was around Awiijii, is that the
territory that Albert and Jonathan Brown used, or who
used that territory?
A No, not in the area, in the one in the area of the Nass.
Q I see. The territory in the area of the Nass was used
by Albert Brown and Jonathan Brown?
A Yes.
Q Now, the territory in the Awiijii and Bowser Lake area,
who used that territory?
A Johnny Wilson is using it.
MR. PLANT: Who?
THE INTERPRETER: Johnny Wilson.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Does Johnny Wilson use that territory today?
A Yes.
Q Is there a trap line on that territory?
A Yes, there is a trap there, it's being logged off too.
63
STERRITT, J.
In Chief
Mr. Rush
Q I'm just going to come back to the logging, I'll come
to that in a moment, but the territory that is being
used today by Johnny Wilson, who used it when you were
younger?
A It was used by Dan Skawil, who was Biiniks at the time,
and Peter Morrison. Peter Morrison is my cousin. And
my daughter, Martha, also used it along with her
husband, George Brown. George is now deceased.
Q On the previous time that we had the Commission Evidence
you talked about Xsiisxw or peace settlement; is
this territory that was part of the peace settlement?
A Yes, the territory that is part of the settlement.
Q Now, all the territories that you have mentioned, and I
think there are three territories if I understand your
evidence. There is the territory at the Babine, which
is -- help me with the name again? The Gitksan name?
A Ansumlaan.
Q What river is that close to?
A I can't think of the name of the river that is close to
that.
MR. RUSH: Do you mind if I lead her on this?
MR. PLANT: I don' t mind that.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Is it close to the Suskwa or Bear River?
A It is not the Suskwa but it's close by there.
Q Yes, I know what she's talking about. Does the name
Harold Price River, could that be the river?
THE INTERPRETER: She can't say.
MR. RUSH: That's fine.
Q Then there was the territory that Albert and Jonathan
Brown used in the Nass area, and I just wanted to ask
you if there is a mountain near that territory that was
called Skawil?
THE INTERPRETER: She knows that there is a creek called
Skawil. Skawil Creek there.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Then there is the territory that was part of the peace
settlement that you have talked about that Peter
Morrison, Martha Brown and George Brown used? That's
the three properties or territory that you're talking
about?
A All part of it, yes. It is all part of the territory.
Q These territories are under the House of Gyedimgaldo'o,
are they?
A Yes, also Xskiigimlaxha and Biiniks within the house.
64
STERRITT, J.
In Chief
Mr. Rush
MR. PLANT: I'm sorry?
MR. RUSH: She said representatives of the house are
Xskiigimlaxha and Biiniks and they're under the house.
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, along with Gyedimgaldo'o.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Jessie, are you authorized to speak about the
territories of Gyedimgaldo'o?
A Yes, because I am the oldest of the house I have the
authority to speak.
Q How old is the present Gyedimgaldo'o?
A I'm not sure how old Sylvester is.
Q He is much younger than you, is he?
A Yes, very much.
Q Now, I wanted you to tell me about the territory by
Seeley Lake; was there a territory used by the House of
'Wiigoob'l by Seeley Lake?
A The lake that is known as Seeley Lake now was referred
to as 'Wiigoob'l's lake.
Q Did you go to 'Wiigoob'l's lake as a young person?
A I used to go there with Sam Hope's father along with his
daughter, Jenny, in the spring time.
Q What did you do there?
A He used to set the net in the area, the fish trap,
between the area -- there's a small lake there and a big
lake and he would fish in between the two.
Q Did he use a fish trap?
A Yes.
Q All right. Can you tell us how would he catch fish with
the fish trap?
A The fish trap is in a barrel shape and they used tree
roots.
Q How would the fish come to be in the fish trap? How
would they be forced into it?
A There is a stream that runs from the big lake to the
little lake and there is where they would set the fish
trap, in between the two lakes.
MR. RUSH: Was there more?
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
THE
WITNESS: The fish trap would be set between the two lakes
in the stream there and the small fishes In the spring,
the trout, all fair size, would come into the trap.
They would float into the trap.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q And be caught that way?
65
STERRITT, J.
In Chief
Mr. Rush
A Yes.
Q Did you ever catch anything else other than fish in the
fish trap?
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
THE WITNESS: There was a smoke house on the edge of the small
lake.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Was this known as -- whose territory was this know as
where you fished?
A 'Wi igoob'1.
Q All right. Now, what happened to that territory? Can
you tell us what happened in this century with regard to
'Wiigoob'l's territory?
A When the railroad was built in 1912 that was where they
met in this area, one from the east and one from the
south. At that time there was a station agent at South
Hazelton and we heard that he had registered the area.
His name was Mr. Gow.
Q Did you give him or to your knowledge did anyone from
the House of 'Wiigoob'l give him permission to register
this area?
A No. They just took it. They named it Seeley Lake.
Q Was this territory of 'Wiigoob'l Lake, was this known
to belong to the House of 'Wiigoob'l?
A It was known by everyone in the area that this was
'Wiigoob'l's territory and nobody went there unless he
gave him permission.
Q Okay.
A In the fall they lived there, all the people, Biiniks
and Gyedimgaldo'o, they lived there in the fall while
they fished. They also - - i n the fall they also set
traps at the foot of the mountain.
66/67
STERRITT,
In Chief
Mr. Rush
BY MR. RUSH:
Q We can re-commence now, Jessie?
A Yes.
Q I want to ask you now about the berry grounds in the
territory; can you tell me where the berry grounds are
located?
A There is one in the area of the Awiijii Lake.
Q Did you pick berries there yourself?
A Yes, I have been there.
Q How do you pick them?
A Use our hands to pick.
Q The reason I ask that question is that I know that there
are some people that used pickers, special pickers; did
you ever use those scoop pickers?
A I've only used them for the blueberries that are closer
to the ground.
Q But otherwise you hand pick, do you?
A Yes.
Q What are the types of berries that you would get at
Awiijii Lake?
A Huckleberries.
Q Are there blueberries there too?
A There's lots of the high bush blueberries there. There
are no blueberries out there.
Q After you pick the huckleberries or the blueberries how
do you prepare them?
A (In English) Preserve them. We preserve them in jars
and we freeze some of them.
Q Did you ever dry them?
71
STERRITT, J.
In Chief
Mr. Rush
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Are they water lilies?
THE INTERPRETER: It would be a water lily type. I know the
English term for it but I can't think of it right now.
They would use that.
THE WITNESS: They would put the leaves on the rack in layers.
They would put several layers of these leaves on the
racks so they wouldn't leak, quite a few layers. There
would be fire under the rocks about that height. The
berries would be crushed and they would pour the juice
on, and they would remove most of the juice off before
they would pour it on these rocks. When it was -- when
the berries were almost dry they would put another rack
on and then they would flip it over so the other side
could be smoked. When the berries were completely
dried then they would put them in rolls and that was
how they stored them.
MR. RUSH: I see.
THE INTERPRETER: She remembers helping her aunt do this.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Where were the berries stored after they had been
72
STERRITT, J.
In Chief
Mr. Rush
rolled up?
A They would put them in the storage box, wooden storage
box and store them where it was cool.
Q I see. This is -- they would use these rolls of dried
berries for trade with ooligan with the Niska people, or
down the coast for seaweed. It was a trade item.
MR. RUSH: I just want to follow that up.
Q You traded berries for seaweed, did you?
A Seaweed and the coastal food. They would dry it,
whatever was harvested down the coast in the Prince
Rupert area.
Q Yes?
A All the seafoods, they dried them and that is what they
would get.
Q When you traded with the people from the coast was that
trade over the Skeena River or over the Grease Trail
through the Nass?
A Before the river boats they used canoes to get down to
the coast. They called them the canoes of the Haida,
they were big, these canoes were used by the people from
the coast. They would come in the spring time before
the river boats were on the river and they would bring
their resources, their dried seafood to trade here.
Q May I just ask you one question that comes from what you
said. Were the canoes that came to -- brought the
people to trade with you, the Haida, you said that they
were Haida canoes, were there any canoes made by the
people from the Gitksan?
A They made canoes here out of cottonwood and they weren't
as big as the Haida canoes because the trees down in the
coastal area are so much bigger.
Q Would the Gitksan then using their canoes travel down to
the coast with goods to trade with the Haida?
THE INTERPRETER: She can't recall them going down with their
canoes. She can remember that was -- when the river
boat started -- were in use here, that was how the
people come here, travel down the coast.
MR. RUSH: I see.
Q I was asking you about the berries, were there any other
plants or roots that were taken from the territory and
harvested?
A Yes, they harvested roots for medicine or the bark of
the trees from the territories.
Q Do you remember what kind of roots you harvested for
medicine?
A They harvested juniper roots for medicine.
Q Okay.
73
STERRITT, J.
In Chief
Mr. Rush
THE WITNESS: For the aches they would slice the roots.
THE INTERPRETER: I guess they're bulbs, I am not too sure.
THE WITNESS: They would tie them on where the aches were
and they would put hot stones to heat them up.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Did they use the leaf of the water lily in any way:
THE INTERPRETER: Not that she's aware.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q How did the people use the juniper?
A They would boil the roots and the branches. They called
it laxsnaxnos.
THE INTERPRETER: Whatever the English interpretation of
laxsnaxnos is, they called the plant that.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q What is the Gitksan name for the plant name?
A laxsnaxnos.
MR. RUSH: I am not going to try that one!
THE INTERPRETER: She will have it.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q How was the juniper used when it was used? You say it
was used as a medicine?
A They would boil it and they would add other things and
drink maybe half a cup of it.
Q I see.
A As a medicine.
Q I see. Was this strong medicine?
A They termed it the medicine of the tree or the bush, and
they drank it so it must have been good for them or they
wouldn't have drunk it. They would also add the Devil
club to make it stronger.
Q Okay.
A Or whatever the need was, and they still do it today.
Some of the people still use it.
74
STERRITT, J.
In Chief
Mr. Rush
Q Do some of the people still use the Devil's Club and the
juniper today?
A Yes, it is still in use.
Q The Devil's Club is a type of plant that is found in the
bush?
A Yes. Q It is
not always wise to step on the Devil's Club, is
it?
A No!
Q The cedar bark, what was the cedar bark used for?
A Cedar bark was used for many things.
Q What were those things?
A They made those wreaths that we talked about.
Q Yes?
A They used cedar bark for that. They had woven baskets
and mats out of cedar bark.
Q What is the Gitksan name for woven basket?
A 'Noo'o.
Q 'Noo'o, okay. Can you tell me, did the people use the
trees in the forest in special ways?
A One of the uses of the trees is --
THE INTERPRETER: -- I just have to think about the English
term -- the white stuff that they pull off in the
spring.
THE WITNESS: In the spring, yes.
THE INTERPRETER: There is a term for it. Our term is ganiix.
THE WITNESS: The other food they make out of it, they call it
Xsu'u. This is different from ganiix. Ganiix is the
sap of the tree. When they pull it off it looks like
noodles, early in May.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Was this eaten or was it
A No, it's just eaten fresh, it's not cooked. They call
it ganiix, they have to eat it right away.
Q What kind of tree was this taken from?
A Pine tree.
Q The pine tree is xsu'ua?
A Skaniist is pine tree.
THE INTERPRETER: What is the English term for seeks -- just
wait a minute.
MR. RUSH: Well, let's
THE INTERPRETER: My memory is not very good.
MR. RUSH: We'll come back to that one. We'll try to
remember that one.
Q Is that another type of tree?
A That's where these noodles come from.
75
STERRITT, J.
In Chief
Mr. Rush
Q Now, let me ask you, did they also use the trees to mark
the boundaries of the territory?
A Yes, they use it to blaze trails or mark their
boundaries.
Q Did they ever carve in the trees in the bush? Did the
people ever carve in the trees?
THE INTERPRETER: While it was standing, you mean?
MR RUSH: Yes, while it was standing.
THE WITNESS: Yes, they would put marks on the tree but never
enter right into the tree, just on the bark.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q What kind of marks would they be?
A Sometimes in the form of a mask, not many people did it,
just some of them did it.
Q Could you tell us whose territory it was from the mask?
A No, it was never --it was just a pasttime, it was
something they did, it really had no significance to the
culture, it was a pasttime.
Q All right. Let me ask you now if you remember, when did
the government first start to interfere with the way
that you used your territories, particularly with
trapping. Do you remember that?
THE INTERPRETER: She cannot give the date but she remembers
that when Biiniks would tell her about registering his
territory. That's when -- that was the first
involvement of the white people.
THE WITNESS: He was talking about that territory, the map.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q This is a map of the territory?
A Yes.
Q I am going to come to the map in just a moment. When
Biiniks told you about registering this territory, was
that the first time that you were aware of the
government interference with your trapping?
THE INTERPRETER: She recalls
THE WITNESS: All I recall is when he talked about having to
register the territory in order to verify his ownership.
THE INTERPRETER: She was quite young at the time.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Now, are there other places on your territory which are
used by white people today without your permission?
A There is a road that goes through our territory, a
highway.
Q Did you ever give anyone permission to build that road?
76
STERRITT, J.
In Chief
Mr. Rush
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Taft Creek, you remember earlier you told us about three
territories of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o? Which one of
these three territories is this happening on?
A In the area of Awiijii.
Q Now, did the people who are logging on this area around
Awiijii that you have described, did they come to you or
to any member of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o and ask
permission to go ahead and log your territory?
A NO, nobody approached us.
Q Did you yourself or anyone from the House of
Gyedimgaldo'o ever give anybody their consent or
permission to go and log that territory?
A NO. Nobody gave them permission.
77
STERRITT, J.
In Chief
Mr. Rush
A Yes.
Q This map was given to you by Daniel Skawil when you
were, how old were you at the time?
A He gave it to me before he died, not too long ago.
Sometime in the forties.
Q When Daniel Skawil gave you the map, why did he give you
and what did he say to you?
A This is what he said, he said whatever possessions I
have, not to worry about it, just hold on to the
territory, this is our resource and this is where we
obtain our living.
Q Now, you can just set the map down I think, Jessie, and
this might be difficult to do but it is important to do
it. I've taken a photocopy of the map and I think it's
not as good as the map but I would like you just to look
at the black and white photocopy and I will ask you if
the photocopy I am showing you is identical or the same
as the map?
A Yes, this is a copy of that original map.
Q Yes, maybe just again hold both the photocopy and the
map towards the camera -- yes, that's great.
Now, the photocopy you're saying is the same as the
map?
A Yes.
MR. RUSH: That's fine, thank you, Jessie.
What I would like to do is mark as the next Exhibit
the photocopy of the map. Mr. Plant has had a look at
it and we've agreed what we will try to do is outline in
red those lines on the map, that is on the original map
that appear in the colour red on that map, and we will
do that before too long I suppose. Let' s have that
marked as the next Exhibit.
THE WITNESS: One of the things that he said when he gave me,
because of the generation of children coming up, that I
would like you to make sure it stays within our house so
that the children, future generation can use it.
MR . RUSH: Okay.
gave it to you?
A He said when he gave it to me, this is the map of our
territory, the boundaries that he has registered with --
this is just part that he registered. This is not the
whole territory.
Q That is what I want to ask. The map that you have shown
us, is this part of the territory that Daniel Skawil
registered?
A Yes.
Q And is there more to the territory than what is shown on
this map?
A No, that's just part of the territory.
Q The territory that you referred to as Awiijii where the
logging is going on, is it in the territory that is
shown on the map here?
A I can't see, I can't read that map but Awiijii is on
this map that I have here.
MR. PLANT: I'm sorry, does she know Awiijii is on the map
which we have made a copy and had marked?
THE INTERPRETER: No, she can't see it.
MR. PLANT: But she knows it is on there or is she referring
to another map?
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Do I understand your evidence to be that Awiijii should
be on the map, Exhibit seven, this map in front of us,
but you can't read the name on the map?
A It should be on there.
Q But it is
THE INTERPRETER: She can see Bowser Lake but she doesn't see
Awi i j i i.
MR. RUSH: Okay. I would just like to advise you, Mr. Plant,
that this map is not to scale, so to the extent there
may be items not shown on the map there may be some
explanation for that.
Q What I would like to do is ask you, Jessie, you have
referred to another map, a second map in which the place
of Awiijii is shown on the map, do you have that with
you today?
A Yes, I have it.
Q Could you show us that map? Do you want to point,
80
STERRITT, J.
In Chief
Mr. Rush
about?
A Yes.
MR. RUSH: Just maybe sit down again, Jessie.
MR. PLANT: When she pointed to Bell I you would agree with
me that is a point very close to Mount Bell Irving?
MR. RUSH: Yes.
MR. PLANT: The red cross?
MR. RUSH: Yes.
MR. PLANT: And she identified 20 miles from that red cross to
the red cross almost in the middle of the map?
MR. RUSH: Yes.
MR. PLANT: Between Bell I and Irving?
MR. RUSH: Yes.
MR. PLANT: Thank you.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Can you tell us where this map came from, Jessie?
A This map was made at the Tribal Council office.
MR RUSH: You would like a copy of this I take it, would you,
Mr. Plant?
MR. PLANT: Yes please.
MR. RUSH: I think we should do this, for me to get a copy of
this map and I'll provide you with a copy and we'll mark
it as the next Exhibit, Exhibit eight. I am reluctant
again to have this map out of Jessie's possession but
what I'll try to do is get copies of this map made up
for you and for the record.
MR. PLANT: Do you think you might be able to get that done
over the lunch hour?
MR. RUSH: I will try my best.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Now, the territory that you have shown us on the map,
which we will mark as Exhibit eight, is this territory
being used for hunting today?
A Yes, it is in use today, this is where Johnny is
trapping.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Now, I have just about concluded all the questions I
have to ask you but, before I finish, I would like to
take the afternoon break so we can have some lunch. I
think the last question that I have recorded that I
wanted to ask you is about the evidence you have given
on this commission and to the court.
My question is this? Apart from the use of the
Evidence that you have given in Commission for the court
purposes on the lawsuit, do you give your permission for
anyone else to use your evidence?
A The evidence I've given I would like it to be used just
for the court.
Q Is it the case that you do not want your evidence to be
used by anyone else except the court?
A No, I would just like it to be used for the court.
Q That would be without your permission, no one could use
it without your permission, is that correct?
A Yes, I would like them to ask me permission before they
use it.
MR. PLANT: Do you mean by that, when you use the word "court"
you obviously intend to refer to the Defendant?
MR. RUSH: Court purposes, that's correct.
MR. PLANT: Yes.
MR. RUSH: That's right. Now, Jessie, I think we can now
adjourn until perhaps 1.30 when we can come back after
lunch and I would just review my notes to see if I have
any more questions for you. If I don't have any more
questions, then Mr. Plant will ask you some questions
after lunch. So we can adjourn now.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Mrs. Sterritt, to the left of Nikat'een sits A'yawasxw,
is that correct?
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
86
STERRITT,
Cross-EX
Mr. Plant
THE WITNESS: In the feast house there is only on the Lax Seel
table it is only Lax Seel people who sit there.
MR. PLANT: That was going to be my next question. Thank you.
Q The next person to the right is Joshua Campbell, is that
right?
A Yes.
87
STERRITT, J.
Cross-EX
Mr . Plant
THE WITNESS: There are other people who are important and
seem to go in that area.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Other people in addition to those people that we have
already named?
A Yes, all the hereditary chiefs.
Q It is only the chiefs in Lax Seel, the Frog Clan, that
attend these feasts, is that correct?
88
STERRITT,
Cross-EX
Mr. Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Is he also a Wolf?
A Yes.
Q Now, I think I know a little bit about what a wilp and
what a p'tekt is but there is another word I have read
and that word is wilnad'ahl; does that word mean
anything to you?
THE INTERPRETER: Wilnad'ahl, is that what you're referring
to?
MR. PLANT: I'm open to anybody's guess how to pronounce
W-I-L-N-A-D - apostrophe - A-H-L.
THE INTERPRETER: That would be wilnad'ahl.
Q What would that mean?
THE INTERPRETER: That is family. Her family would be
wilnad'ahl. Members of the house, that is, they refer
to them as wilnad'ahl.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Is house or wilp different from the wilnad'ahl?
A No, it is one and the same.
Q Now, I want to look at the photograph that we looked at
89
STERRITT, J.
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q You remember looking at this photograph?
A Yes.
Q You remember Mr. Rush marked the G there, do you see
that G on the photograph?
A Yes.
Q I understood from your earlier evidence that the G was
put on the House of Gyedimgaldo'o? A
Yes.
Q And over on the left you or Mr. Rush put a W and I
understood that was the House of 'Wiigoob'l?
A Yes.
Q As I remember your evidence it was that the house which
is to the left of Gyedimgaldo'o was the House of
Guuhadxw?
A Yes.
MR. RUSH: To the left, is it? MR. PLANT:
Yes.
Q Was Guuhadxw a chief or is Guuhadxw a wilp?
A Yes.
Q Guuhadxw is wilp?
MR. RUSH: You asked two questions.
MR. PLANT: Exactly. It was my fault, I apologize for that.
I'll start again.
OFF THE RECORD
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Guuhadxw, is that the name of a wilp?
A Yes.
Q And do you remember when you were a little girl there
was a chief that had the name Guuhadxw?
A Yes, there is the name.
Q Is there still someone who has the name Guuhadxw?
THE INTERPRETER: She thinks it's held by Thomas Wright. She
could be wrong, don't quote her on that.
THE WITNESS: (In English) I am not too sure.
90
STERRITT, J.
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Do you remember the Clan of Guuhadxw?
A Wolf.
Q Still looking at that photograph, I believe you said
that Skawil lived in a house near the House of
Gyedimgaldo'o but it was just a small house?
A Yes, just on the other side of Wayamuux.
Q Was that when Skawil held the name of Biiniks also?
THE INTERPRETER: He became Biiniks before she was born and
also he lived in that house below the hill.
THE WITNESS: Those are single units.
THE INTERPRETER: What was your last question?
BY MR. PLANT:
Q I wanted to know in part where Biiniks lived but I know
on that same point Skawil held the name Biiniks so maybe
the answer to the question is the same?
A Yes, he was in the new houses up on the other side of
that Guuhadxw's house. He formerly lived at the bottom
of the hill, the house is still visible in that picture.
Q Perhaps you could turn the photograph around and point
out the house at the bottom of the hill?
A That is where he lived formerly.
(In English) This one here.
Q That is the house on the extreme left of the photograph,
the house in the lower left part?
A That one there.
THE INTERPRETER: Whose house is that?
THE WITNESS: Wayamuux.
MR. PLANT: Perhaps we could get some more information put on
this photograph, would that be possible?
MR. RUSH: That's fine.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q If I put S there, that will be the House of Skawil that
he lived in?
A (In English) Yes, this one here. And this is Philip
Morrison's house, and this is Abel Oaks, there's three
houses there.
Q Perhaps I don't need to put a mark on there. There is
three houses there?
A Close together.
Q Immediately to the left of this large roof on the left
hand side of the photograph and going through to the
left you say Skawil, Philip Morrison and
A Abel Oaks.
Q DO you know who lived in the house with the large roof
91
STERRITT,
Cross-EX
Mr . Plant
THE WITNESS: Alex Oaks had a store, just along the river,
just on the site of the library. Where the library is
here, and he was Gitksan.
MR. PLANT: Thank you.
Q Was there a school in the village here down on the river
banks?
A There was a school right at the corner where the
Anglican Mission House is now, along this street here, a
little log house.
THE INTERPRETER: This was the school she went to.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Did white children go to that school?
A Yes.
Q White children and Indian children?
A There were no Indian children. There was just my
brother and I, and my cousin Mary Oldson who went to
school there. Native children went to the Anglican
school next door here. It was called The Indian Day
School.
93
STERRITT,
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
Q But you went to the school that the white children went
to?
A Yes.
Q Did you go to that school because your father was
Chinese?
A I think that is why I went there.
Q And your father was Mr. Lumm, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q He was a prospector?
A Yes.
Q What language did he speak?
A They used the language they called Chinook.
Q Did you speak with your father in this language,
Chinook?
A I used it a bit.
Q Did you speak to your father in English? Did he speak
English?
A Yes, he used English to us.
Q Where did you live when your father and mother were both
alive?
A We lived down the river here, I don't know if you are
aware where the ferry used to be.
Q You lived close to where the steam boats came in?
A Yes.
Q That is in the area that is now the Village of Hazelton?
A Part of the reserve but it is farther down the river,
not right in the town area.
Q Is it as far down the river as Gitksan?
A In that area, yes, the back area of 'Ksan. It's right
beside where the camp grounds are now.
Q That is where the river boats came?
A Sometimes if there was a boat at the Bay landing then
they would land further down where they lived. Then
when the boat that was at the landing would go away then
they would move up to the landing.
THE INTERPRETER: She's just remembering when she was a little
girl when the boats would come the oranges that hadn't
quite survived the trip, starting to go bad, they would
jUSt throw them in the river and she remembers she and
her friend, Ellen Johnson from Kispiox, would just lift
their skirts and pick them up.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q The house that you lived in with your mother and father
when they were both alive, was that on the reserve or
outside the reserve?
A It was on the reserve.
94
STERRITT,
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
grandfather.
THE WITNESS: I don't recall the trip.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Did you have this discussion with Mrs. Wale's son or
grandson very recently?
THE INTERPRETER: She just phoned to talk to Mrs. Wale last
night. She wanted to find out about the year that they
went to Ottawa.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Do you know why this group wanted to talk about the
territory with the government or the people in the
government?
A They were concerned about just being put off the
territory by the white people and they wanted to talk to
the government about it.
Q Is that something that was happening at the time this
trip took place? Was the white man putting the Gitksan
people off the territory?
A Yes.
Q DO you remember what happened when the people, the
chief's came back from Ottawa and Victoria?
THE INTERPRETER: No, she doesn't remember anything.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Was there an Indian agent in Hazelton or near Hazelton
at about that time, do you remember?
A Yes, there was one.
THE INTERPRETER: The first one she remembers is Mr. Loring.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Do you remember if Mr. Loring was married?
A Yes, Mr. Loring was married to Constance Cox's mother.
Q Was that Margaret Hankin?
A Yes, she married Mr. Loring after her husband, Mr.
Hankin died.
Q Who was Mr. Hankin, do you remember?
A I don't remember him.
Q DO you remember if Mr. Loring's wife was a Gitksan?
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
BY MR. PLANT:
Q You're not sure about whether or not she was a Haida or
not?
THE INTERPRETER: She ' s not sure .
BY MR. PLANT:
Q But you're quite sure she was Native?
A Yes.
THE INTERPRETER: She thinks she was a half-breed.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Do you remember when the railroad came through across
the river from Hazelton?
A Yes, I remember.
THE INTERPRETER: That is about the time her mother died. So
she thinks it is about 1912.
THE WITNESS: (In English) It was called the GTP, Grand Trunk
pacific.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Do you remember if people from Gitanmaax, the Gitksan
people went to work on the railroad?
A Yes, they worked on there.
MR. PLANT: Did she use the word sections?
THE INTERPRETER: That was the maintenance crew, and the
Native people worked on the maintenance crew at the
railway.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Did Gitksan people also work to make railway ties, the
wood?
THE INTERPRETER: She doesn't know. She remembers white
people making ties.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Do you remember when pack trains used to leave from
Hazelton for the telegraph line?
A Yes, I remember.
Q Was that when you were a very little girl?
A Yes.
Q Did Gitksan people work on the pack trains?
A Yes, they worked on the pack train.
Q Do you remember - - o r you may have read in the history
books something the white man calls the First World War
and I wonder if you remember when you were a little girl
if any people from Hazelton left Hazelton and went to
fight a long way away in a white man's war?
98
STERRITT,
Cross-EX
Mr. Plant
SHORT RECESS
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Jessie, I have a few questions about education. You
told me where it was you went to school; how long did
you go to that school?
A Not very long. I was just starting on what they call
third grade.
THE INTERPRETER: When her mother died. That's as far as
her education went.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Did your aunt take you out of school?
A The aunt was married to a trapper. Just when school
would start in the fall that is when they would go out
on the trap line and come in for Christmas, stay in for
Christmas, and out again until May.
THE INTERPRETER: So she didn't have the opportunity to go to
school.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q You attended church here in the village? Did you go to
the Anglican Church when you were a small girl?
A I attended the Anglican Church here, I was baptized by
the Reverend John Field.
MR. PLANT: What was the last name?
THE INTERPRETER: Field.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Have you gone to that church on and off for all your
life?
A Yes, just one church I attend. I'm a member of the
church, I have been baptized and confirmed there.
Q When Mr. Rush examined you, and I think the first day
you talked about a time in adolescence where you went
into seclusion; do you remember that discussion with Mr.
Rush?
A Yes, I remember.
Q You were on the hunting trail?
A Yes, on the hunting trail.
Q Were you with your mother -- I'm sorry -- were you with
99
STERRITT,
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q When your aunt married were you still a member and your
aunt continued to be a member of the House of
Gyedimgaldo'o?
A Yes.
Q What was the hunting territory that you were on at the
time that this period of seclusion began?
A The territory of 'Wiik'aax. My aunt was married to
'Wiik'aax.
Q Is that a wilp, 'Wiik'aax?
A Yes.
Q Is it a wilp that is close to Gyedimgaldo'o or is it
another wilp or Clan?
A 'Wiik'aax wilp is Wolf, from the Wolf people.
Q So you were on the hunting territory of the Wolf people?
A Yes.
Q I have a few questions to ask about your husbands. I
understand that Simon Wright was your first husband, is
that correct?
A Yes.
Q Did he live in Hazelton?
A He originated from Kisgagas but he lived in Gitanmaax.
Q Did he move to Gitanmaax when you were married or had he
moved there before?
A Yes, before we were married.
THE INTERPRETER: He was previously married to another person
before Jessie married him.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Was his previous wife someone who lived in Gitanmaax?
A No, his wife was from Port Essington, down the coast.
Q Wasn't it unusual for people to move from one village to
another when you were a little girl?
A No, it wasn't. They moved from one village to another.
Q Simon Wright was a Wolf, is that correct?
A His uncle was 'Wiik'aax and he later became 'Wiik'aax.
Q Is that the house that Neil Sterritt Senior is now the
chief of?
A Yes.
Q You had two children, Martha and Cora, from that first
marriage who are still alive?
100
STERRITT,
Cross-Ex
Mr . Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Is he related to Neil Sterritt Senior?
A It's Neil Sterritt Senior's father.
Q Was Charlie Sterritt a chief?
A Yes.
Q What wilp?
A Haaxw. His name is Haaxw and he belongs to Haaxw.
MR. PLANT: Do you know if that is a Plaintiff?
MR. RUSH: I can't tell you. I can't remember.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Is there someone who holds that name now?
A Charlie Oldson holds the name now.
OFF THE RECORD
BY MR. PLANT:
Q One of the things that you talked about, one of the
areas that Mr. Rush was asking questions on the first
day that we met concerned ownership.
Do you want that translated? I just want to direct
your mind to that.
A Yes.
Q If I could summarize your evidence I think you said that
there are things that belong to the name, there are
things that belong to the name 'Wiigoob'l or the name
Gyedimgaldo'o, that they belong to the whole house?
A Yes.
Q That would be regalia, like the blanket or the rattle?
A Yes.
Q What about things like rifles and clothing, in the old
days who would own that?
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Now, Jessie, I am going to try and ask some questions
based on the questions that Stuart asked you this
morning but I don't have very good notes of that yet so
my questions may be a bit disorganized so please be
patient.
You remember looking at the photograph which you
identified as a photograph of the blanket belonging to
Biiniks?
A Yes.
Q You said that the blanket was in the museum?
A Yes.
Q Do you mean the museum at ' Ksan?
A Yes.
Q Is the blanket of Gyedimgaldo'o also in the museum at
'Ksan?
A Yes. Gyedimgaldo'o's amhalayt is also in the museum.
Q At 'Ksan?
A At 'Ksan.
Q But there is a rattle which Sara Marshall has?
A Yes.
Q Is Sara Marshall Gitksan?
A Yes.
Q Does she have a Gitksan name, do you know?
A She has an Indian name, yes, a Gitksan name.
103
STERRITT, J.
Cross-EX
Mr. Plant
THE WITNESS: They just have the one pole, Xskiigimlaxha and
Gyedimgaldo'o, Biiniks.
Q Is there an Indian name or Gitksan name for the House of
Gyedimgaldo'o which is Sanoos?
A The name Sanoos belongs to the House of Nikat'een.
Q So it is a house in the -- it is a name in the House of
Nikat'een, and I can't remember if you told me whether
104
STERRITT, J.
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Stuart asked you some questions about fishing sites, and
I think you remember talking about fishing sites of
'Wiigoob'l and Gyedimgaldo'o being in Hagwilget Canyon?
A Yes.
Q Do I understand correctly that anyone in the House of
Gyedimgaldo'o could fish at the sites of 'Wiigoob'l and
Gyedimgaldo'o?
THE INTERPRETER: Would you re-phrase that?
MR. PLANT: I will ask that again.
Q Could someone who is a member of the House of 'Wiigoob'l
fish at the fishing sites belonging to Gyedimgaldo'o
without asking permission?
A No, they don't have to, it belongs to them, they're
house members.
Q I take it the same would be true the other way, that is
to say, from someone from the House of Gyedimgaldo'o
could fish in the fishing sites of 'Wiigoob'l without
asking permission?
A Yes, it would be the same.
Q Could someone who was a member of the house in the Wolf
Clan fish at a fishing site belonging to 'Wiigoob'l
without asking permission?
A They have to get permission from the head of the house.
Q What if someone from Moricetown wanted to fish at the
fishing site of 'Wiigoob'l or Gyedimgaldo'o, would they
also have to ask permission?
A Yes, they have to ask permission.
Q Would Biiniks have to ask permission?
A No.
Q Xskiigimlaxha?
A No.
Q Would a member of the Frog Clan from Kispiox have to ask
permission?
A They have to ask permission.
Q Would someone from any Clan who came from another
village who is Gitksan, would they have to ask
permission?
A They have to ask permission.
Q What about Nikat'een, would he have to ask permission?
105
STERRITT, J.
Cross-Ex
Mr . Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Would I be correct to say that Gyedimgaldo'o is a chief
in the wilp of 'Wiigoob'l?
A Yes, it would be correct to say that.
Q And it would also be correct to say 'Wiigoob'l is a
chief in the wilp of Gyedimgaldo'o?
A Yes, it would be correct to say that.
Q You spoke about a fishing site that belongs to
Gyedimgaldo'o that is located where Mission Creek runs
into the Bulkley River, and I want to know how long that
fishing site has belonged to Gyedimgaldo'o? If you can
remember or if you know?
A As far as I can remember it's always been his.
Q Is that where people from the House of 'Wiigoob'l and
also from the House of Gyedimgaldo'o went to fish when
the rock was blasted in Hagwilget Canyon or had the
people -- I'm sorry -- that's all. Bad habit!
A It's always been one of his fishing sites.
Q One of the hunting territories that Mr. Rush asked you
about is a place called Amsumlaan.
A Yes.
Q And I think you said that it was not a very big place
and just one man works it?
A Yes, just one man works it.
Q Who is that man?
A Johnny Wilson has gone there.
THE INTERPRETER: She's not
THE WITNESS: He doesn't use it any more because since then
he is registered Awiijii. Ansumlaan has been turned
over to Gyedimgaldo'o, Sylvester Green.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Do you know if anyone in Gyedimgaldo'o uses the land?
Does Sylvester Green use the land?
THE INTERPRETER: She doesn't know if he is using it right
now.
107
STERRITT,
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q You don't know if anyone is using it?
A No.
Q Did you say that the territory was turned over to
Gyedimgaldo'o?
A Yes. Johnny Wilson registered before and now he has
turned it over to Sylvester Green. Because white man's
law says you can't hold two trapping grounds.
Q Is it now registered in the name of Sylvester Green so
far as you know?
A Yes.
Q Was there a feast when that happened? When Johnny
Wilson turned the ground over or had it re-registered in
Sylvester Green's name?
A It wasn't done in a feast but when Johnny was told that
he couldn't hold two trap lines he gave it to Sylvester.
At some later date this could be announced in the feast
hall.
Q Do you remember when Johnny Wilson turned this land over
to Sylvester Green?
A Just about a year ago.
Q I can't remember what wilp Johnny Wilson belongs to?
A Our house.
Q When you say "our house" do you say, you mean
THE INTERPRETER: Jessie is saying 'Wiigoob'l.
MR. PLANT: 'Wiigoob'l, yes.
THE WITNESS: And Gyedimgaldo'o's house, Johnny....
THE INTERPRETER: She calls Johnny her son, she raised him.
OFF THE RECORD
BY MR. PLANT:
Q If Sylvester Green were here today would he be speaking
on behalf of Gyedimgaldo'o?
A If he were here and he was capable he would be talking
for Gyedimgaldo'o because he very young and perhaps
doesn't know as much as I do.
Q Jessie, you know that Gyedimgaldo'o is a Plaintiff in
this lawsuit which the hereditary chiefs have commenced
against the Government of B.C.?
THE INTERPRETER: No, she wasn't aware that he was one of the
Plaintiffs.
MR. RUSH: Maybe re-phrase it.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Do you know that Gyedimgaldo'o was someone who had along
108
STERRITT, J.
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Can you think of people right now who should be on that
list and aren't?
A No.
Q Are the people who are on the list
THE INTERPRETER: There is a name here, Bessie Nelson, and
she just wasn't too sure about the grandchildren.
110
STERRITT, J.
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Bessie may have some grandchildren that you don't know
about?
A That's right, they live in Rupert.
Q Are there other people on that list that live outside of
Gitanmaax?
A Yes, there are other people.
MR. PLANT: Did she give a name there, Beatrice?
THE INTERPRETER: Beatrice, her granddaughter, lives on
Vancouver Island. Beatrice DeBoyd(?) and her children
live away from the area, and Donald, her son, lives in
Quesnel, Donald Walstrom. Martha's son lives -- he is a
constable in the police force, he is away from the area.
MR. PLANT: That is very helpful. I don't need an exhaustive
list of these people.
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
THE INTERPRETER: You can use that list but she thinks maybe
her daughter could make another one, but she wants all
those names on because, on account of the territory,
these are people that can use the territories.
MR. PLANT: All right.
VIOLET SMITH,
Gitksan Interpreter,
Previously Sworn
JESSIE STERRITT
Witness called on behalf of
the Plaintiffs, previously
Sworn, testifies, as follows:
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Do I understand correctly that this map shows the
territory of which we spoke yesterday and shows the
Awiijii-Bowser Lake territory?
A Yes.
MR. RUSH: Excuse me, I should point out that her evidence
yesterday, it wasn't all the territory.
MR. PLANT: I want to ask some questions to try to get to
that.
Q First, is this the territory which Biiniks obtained in
the peace settlement?
A Yes.
Q Does that map, which is Exhibit seven, show all of the
territory which Biiniks obtained in the peace
settlement?
A I am not sure if that is all the territory but this is
the map he gave me.
Q This is the map that Daniel Skawil gave you?
A Yes, and he said that this was the map of his territory.
Q Daniel Skawil said to you that this map, which is
Exhibit seven, is a map of his territory?
A Yes, that is what he said.
Q Before the peace settlement do you know who owned that
territory?
A Somebody from the Stikine area.
Q Not Gitksan?
A No. Over from the Stikine River area, so he wouldn't
be Gitksan.
Q Do you know if the peace settlement happened when Daniel
Skawil was alive?
A Yes.
Q Daniel Skawil was alive at the time of the peace
settlement?
A Yes.
Q Do you know of any other occasions when territory passed
from one people to another?
A That happened regarding the fishing site up at the
canyon, that was a settlement.
Q Whose fishing site?
A Gyedimgaldo'o's fishing site.
Q Is this the one on the other side? The one on the other
side of Hagwilget Canyon?
A Yes.
Q You say that fishing site was acquired in a settlement
of some sort?
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
114
STERRITT,
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
THE WITNESS: The fishing site had originally belonged to
the Giskaast people, and one Lax Seel people were
fishing there and he was pulled in by the salmon, and
it is one of our laws that we compensate in some way
for that life, and that is why that fishing site was
given to Gyedimgaldo'o'.
Q It was given to Gyedimgaldo'o' by the Giskaast people?
A Yes.
Q Do you know when that happened?
A No. It was before I was born.
Q Can you think of any other occasions when territory
passed from one people to another?
A No.
Q Looking again at the map which you have got there,
which is Exhibit seven, do you know if Daniel Skawil
had a trap line in this territory?
A He trapped there most of his life until he was unable
to go out due to old age.
Q Do you know if he registered the trap line with the
government?
A Yes, he registered and that was how they acquired the
map.
Q Can you tell me a little bit more about how they
acquired the map? Do you know if Daniel himself drew
this map?
THE INTERPRETER: She' s not sure but she thinks maybe Dan
drew the map.
MR. PLANT: Dan Skawil?
THE INTERPRETER: Skawil.
THE WITNESS: He has had this map in his possession for a
long time and that is why it's so tattered.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q And you have had this map for a long time also?
A (In English) Yes, since in the forties.
It was given to me in about the nineteen forties.
It was when he was very old that he passed it on to
me.
Q Did anyone besides Daniel Skawil trap in this
territory?
A Peter Morrison, now deceased. Martha Brown and her
husband, Tommy Danes. And Philip Morrison.
Q What is the house or what was the house of peter
Morrison?
A It is from our house, he' s. . . .
Q Is that House of 'Wiigoob'l?
A Gyedimgaldo'o. Peter was Johnny Wilson's uncle.
Q Was Peter Morrison a chief?
A He has the name but it's not one of the higher names.
Q Is Martha Brown still alive?
115
STERRITT,
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q The Martha Brown who hunted or trapped on this territory
shown on this map of Daniel Skawil?
A That is my oldest daughter.
Q You said that James Morrison had hunted on this
territory, is he Peter Morrison's son?
THE INTERPRETER: James Morrison, did you say.
MR. PLANT: I think that was the last name?
THE INTERPRETER: It was Peter Morrison.
BY MR. PLANT
Q Was there a James Morrison also that hunted on that
territory?
A No.
Q Jessie, of all the people in the House of 'Wiigoob'l,
who knows the most about the old ways and the territory?
A I'm the oldest in the house and I'm the one that has the
knowledge.
Q Is that same true of the House of Gyedimgaldo'o?
A Yes.
Q Is the same true of the House of Xskiigimlaxha?
A Yes, it is the same.
Q Now, was Daniel Skawil's brother Nagun?
A Yes.
Q Was he also known as Johnson Nagun?
A I can't remember his English name at all.
Q Was he Simon Gunnanoot's father?
A Yes.
Q Do you know what wilp Nagun was a member of?
A He's in our house, he's Daniel Skawil's brother.
Q Do you know where Nagun hunted?
THE INTERPRETER: What was your question again?
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Do you know where Nagun hunted? Simon Gunnanoot's
father?
A In the territory we're talking about.
Q The territory on the map that you're looking at?
A Yes.
MR. RUSH: Exhibit seven.
MR. PLANT: Yes.
116
STERRITT, J.
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Did Simon become Geel?
A Yes, he became Geel after he was acquitted.
Q What Clan is Geel?
A Fireweed.
Q Do you know if Simon Gunnanoot hunted in the territory,
Exhibit seven, throughout his life?
A Yes, he hunted there most of his life and then after he
was acquitted he never used the territory. After his
father died he didn't use the territory.
Q Now, I would like to look at the map which we looked at
for the first time yesterday, which is the map that we
are going to mark as Exhibit eight when the map is
prepared, with all the markings of the original on it.
Do you have a copy of that today?
MR. RUSH: No. It's over at the photocopier's.
MR. PLANT: Maybe you could hand that copy to Jessie?
MR. RUSH: Yes.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Do you remember looking at a map similar to that
yesterday, Jessie?
A Yes.
Q And the map that you looked at yesterday was a little
different because there was some red marks on it, is
that right?
A Yes.
Q Did you make that map?
A No.
Q Do you know who made it?
A It was made by the people of the Tribal Council.
Q Do you know why the Tribal Council or who at the Tribal
Council made it?
A No, I don't. I don't know the names of the workers
there.
Q How did you get a copy of that map?
A Johnny Wilson got it.
117
STERRITT,
Cross-EX
Mr. Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Jessie, what do you see on the map that is interesting?
THE INTERPRETER: She was trying to....she was pointing out
to me where the cabin is located at Skawil Creek.
MR. RUSH: Where is she saying it is?
THE INTERPRETER: Pardon?
MR. RUSH: What did she just say then?
THE INTERPRETER: She was just looking at the area of Skawil
Creek where the cabin was located, she was pointing it
out to me.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Is that location of the cabin the same place where the
cabin was a long time ago, the original cabin?
A No, it's not in the same area, it's closer to the creek.
Q You know where the old cabin was?
A Not too far away.
Q A mile or so or less?
A About two miles.
Q Any members of the house work for logging companies that
you know of, Jessie?
THE INTERPRETER: Are you referring to the logging going on in
the area?
MR. PLANT: No, just generally.
THE INTERPRETER: Any?
MR. PLANT: Any logging?
THE INTERPRETER: You're referring to now?
MR. PLANT : Now.
THE WITNESS: No, not now. Some of them have worked at the
sawmill.
MR. PLANT: In the past?
THE INTERPRETER: In the past.
THE WITNESS: Yes, in this area.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q In Hazelton?
A South Hazelton. My grandson works at South Hazelton.
Q At a sawmill?
120
STERRITT,
Cross-EX
Mr . Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Jessie, yesterday I believe you spoke about the
territory of your house near Glen Vowel1, do you recall
that?
A Yes.
Q Whose territory is that?
A Gyedimgaldo'o traps there. Albert Brown used it, he was
-- close to where he was living in Glen Vowell at the
time.
Q Was he the last person to use it?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember how long ago that was?
A He used it until he died.
Q And when was that?
A I can' t remember the year.
Q Was it a long time ago?
A I can' t remember the year.
Q Does anyone from your house or from the House of
Gyedimgaldo'o use this territory now?
A No. We hear again that there's poaching on it.
Q Do you know who does the poaching?
A The man that I know of that used to use it is now
deceased, James Woods. I don't know if anybody's using
it now but it is pretty well logged off.
Q Was James Woods a Gitksan?
A Yes.
Q And what wilp did he belong to?
A Fireweed.
Q Was he a member of the house also?
A I assume he was using it because he was married to
Albert Brown's sister. I was only one old enough to use
it but because I don't trap then there was really
nobody, my children weren't old enough to go out there.
Q I think you said a minute ago that you thought James
Woods was poaching, do you say that because he did not
have your permission to trap or hunt on the territory?
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
A Yes.
Q Which side of the Skeena is it?
A On the other side of the Skeena from here.
Q You spoke yesterday of a territory in the Nass which
you said I believe was one of your territories; do you
remember speaking of that?
A I assume you're referring to Gyedimgaldo'o's trap line?
THE INTERPRETER: Pardon me - - 'Wiigoob'l' s trap line.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Is that the same territory as the territory Biiniks
obtained in the peace settlement or is that another
territory?
A It's a different territory, I haven't been there.
(In English) Somewhere around the Nass. Closer to
the Nass River.
THE INTERPRETER: It is closer to the Nass River.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q You have not been there?
A No.
Q You're not sure if anyone goes there now from your
house?
A Not now. Jonathan Brown used it after his father died.
After Jonathan died I am not aware that anybody's using
it.
Q Do you know when Jonathan died?
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
Nass?
A No, I didn't.
Q When you were young did you trade berries for ooligan or
is that something that happened before you were born?
A No, I don't -- I never went myself but the trading with
the berries, this goes on.
Q It goes on now?
A Yes.
Q And it went on when you were a little girl?
THE INTERPRETER: Pardon?
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Did it also go on when you were a little girl?
A Yes.
Q That is, trading berries for ooligan with the people of
the Nass?
A Yes.
Q Do you use ooligan?
MR. RUSH: You mean ooligan grease?
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Ooligan grease?
A Yes.
Q You spoke yesterday about trading along the Skeena with
people who came in Haida canoes; is that something that
happened when you were alive?
A Yes, I remember them.
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
BY MR. PLANT:
Q You're pointing in front of the house where we are at
right now?
A Yes, where The Bay and the Cunningham stores were
located.
Q Did this happen before the river boats came or were the
river boats coming at this time?
A During the spring when the river is low the canoes can
use it but it is only when the water is higher that the
river boats were able to come.
Q So when the river boats couldn't come the canoes came?
A Yes.
Q Were the people in those canoes, were they Haida people
125
STERRITT, J.
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
or people from the Skeena and lower down?
A I was too small to say whether they were Haida or the
coast people.
Q Was this something that stopped when you were a little
girl?
A The canoes stopped coming when the railway came.
Q You spoke yesterday of using roots for medicine. I
wanted to ask you whether you yourself had ever made any
of these medicines?
A Yes, I made it. I've made it.
Q Did you do this when you were a little girl?
A No, I did it when I was adult too.
Q Did you use these medicines yourself?
A Yes.
Q When you were a little girl did you weave cedar bark
yourself?
A No, I never did.
Q Was that something done by other people when you were a
little girl or had it stopped?
A I've watched elderly women do that.
Q When you were a little girl?
A When I was a little girl.
Q Do you remember Dr. Wrinch?
A Yes, he was my doctor.
Q He was the doctor in Hazelton for a long time, wasn't
he?
A Yes.
Q You remember him being the doctor when you were a little
girl?
A Yes, I went to school with his children.
Q You spoke yesterday about trees that were marked to
blaze trails, do you remember speaking about that?
A Yes.
Q Have you ever seen these marks on trees yourself?
A Yes, when I was on the trap line I would see them.
Q Was that after your first marriage also?
A Yes.
Q You spoke also about masks, did you see those masks when
you were on the trap line?
A Yes, I have seen them. It was done on the bark of the
tree.
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION
SHORT RECESS
126
STERRITT,
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Jessie, yesterday you were kind enough to give me a copy
of this list which we marked as Exhibit No. 10, and I've
got a copy and I can give it to you to have a look at
for a minute. That is the list which you and your
daughter drew, or prepared to set out the members of the
House of 'Wiigoob'l, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q I'm sorry, that was yes?
A Yes.
MR. RUSH: I think it was not only the House of 'Wiigoob'l.
MR. PLANT: That is what I am asking about.
Q Does that list include also members of the House of
Gyedimgaldo'o?
A Yes.
Q Does it include also members or those people who belong
to the House of Biiniks?
A Yes.
Q Does it include also those people who belong to the
House of Xskiigimlaxha?
A Yes.
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
THE WITNESS: I would like to point out that this list is not
complete. I do not know the names of some of the
grandchildren of Bessie Nelson.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q You said that yesterday, that is the main concern you
have with that list, you're not sure who Bessie's
grandchildren are?
A Yes.
Q I am going to try and pronounce a few of the other names
and I just want to know if you know these people and if
you can tell me what Clan they belong to. First is
'Niigyap?
A Wolf Clan.
Q Does 'Niigyap live in Gitanmaax?
A Yes, he originated from Kisgagas.
Q Do you know how he came to Gitanmaax?
A The village of Kisgagas it is still there but nobody
lives there, they all moved into Gitanmaax. There was
too few of them.
Q So they all left?
A Yes.
Q Some of them came to Gitanmaax?
127
STERRITT, J.,
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Plant
A Yes.
Q That was when you were alive? That was some time during
your life?
A Just lately that they did.
Q How about 'wiiminoosikx?
A 'Wiiminoosikx is of the Frog Clan.
Q Does 'Wiiminoosikx have a seat at the feast table?
A Yes, they have a seat at the -- their own table.
Q That is not the same table that Gyedimgaldo'o sits at?
A No.
Q Is it the same table that Skawil and Biiniks and
Xskiigimlaxha sit at?
A No.
Q The next one I think would be Gwininitxw?
A He is of the Wolf Clan and he too originated from
Kisgagas. Gwininitxw today is Arthur Kusick.
Q 'Wiiminoosikx, is that Robert Stevens?
A I don't know who holds the name today. That is in the
Kispiox area,
Q The next one I want to ask you about -- it looks like
Xgwooyemtxw?
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Does he live in Hazelton?
A Yes. That is Mrs. Wale today.
Q Kathleen Wale?
A Yes. /
Q Is she the woman you tried to phone the other night
to find out about Ottawa?
A Yes.
Q Does She live in Hazelton or Gitanmaax?
A Gitanmaax.
Q What's the clan of Xgwooyemtxw?
A Wolf.
Q Is she also one of the Wolf people who came from
Kisgagas, or her people lived in Gitanmaax?
A Yes, long time her people came from Kisgagas.k Mrs. Wale
was born here.
Q The next person I want to ask you about is Gyolugyet?
A Gyolugyet, Mary McKenzie.
Q Yes, I think that would be Mary McKenzie.
A That is Wolf.
Q Is she from Kisgagas also?
A I think so but I can't say for sure. She is either from
Kisgagas or Galdo'o.
128
STERRITT,
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
Q Dawamuux?
A Dawamuux, Fireweed, and the present Dawamuux is Charlie
Clifford.
Q Dawamuux lives in Gitanmaax?
A Yes.
Q Do you know a chief named Woosimlaxha?
A Woosimlaxha is of the Fireweed Clan and the present one
is Victor Mowat.
Q Is Woosimlaxha a wilp?
A Yes, they have their own house.
Q Is he a chief in the house?
A Yes.
Q Victor Mowat is the chief of that house?
A Yes.
Q Is that house in Hazelton or Gitanmaax?
A I don't know where they originated from but they live in
Gitanmaax now.
Q DO you remember when you were growing up in Gitanmaax
there was a house of Woosimlaxha then?
A Yes, I remember.
Q Do you know a chief named Xwtsimxwts'iin?
A Yes, I know.
Q Is that Frog Clan?
A Frog Clan. The present one is Joshua Campbell.
Q Does Xwtsimxwts'iin sit at the table in the feast hall?
A He sits at the table I sit on.
Q He sits at the same table as 'Wiigoob'l?
A Yes.
Q Is Xwtsimxwts' iin a wilp?
A Yes.
Q And Joshua Campbell is the chief?
A Yes. Joshua Campbell at present is ill.
Q Is ill?
A Yes.
Q Is he an old man?
A Yes.
Q Does he sit further along to the right of Gyedimgaldo'o
at the feast table?
A He sits between Bruce Johnson and Ben McKenzie.
Q The last chief I want to ask you about, or the person I
want to ask you about is Guuwo'otxw -- I'm way out in
left field on that one!
THE INTERPRETER: How do you spell that?
MR. PLANT: G-U-U-W-0-apostrophe-O-T-X-W.
THE INTERPRETER: X?
MR. PLANT: Charlotte Angus. X-W
THE WITNESS: I am not too sure and I can't remember Charlotte
129
STERRITT, J.
Cross-Ex
Mr. Plant
Re-Exam
Mr. Rush
Angus' name. They're Kispiox people.
BY MR. PLANT:
Q Jessie, do you know anything about a meeting with Mr.
Crombie, the Federal Government minister, which Mr.
Crombie had with some of the chiefs of the Gitksan and
Wet'suwet'ten people to discuss changes in the Indian
Act?
A No, I wasn't there. It met at a time when I was away.
Q You don't really know if the meeting took place or not?
A No.
Q So you wouldn't know who was there?
MR. PLANT: Just one second.
Those are all my questions. Thank you very much
for your patience, both of you.
MR. RUSH: Jessie, it's not over yet. I have a few more
questions to ask of you and it won't take very long.
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH:
Q Yesterday, Mr. Plant asked you about the fact that
Gyedimgaldo'o sent James White to Ottawa to speak on his
behalf. I want to ask you is the James White that went
to Ottawa, is that the person that became Gyedimgaldo'o
himself?
A Yes.
Q That is one and the same person, is it?
A Yes.
MR. PLANT: Well, at the time he left he was not but he later
became Gyedimgaldo'o.
MR. RUSH: I'm just trying to clear that up.
Q I think it is understood that when James White went to
Ottawa he was not Gyedimgaldo'o?
A I can't say for sure but I think he went after he had
the Gyedimgaldo'o.
MR. RUSH: I see.
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
THE WITNESS: Because it was only the chiefs with the head
name who went so he must have had it then.
MR. RUSH: Okay.
Q You said that the same group of chiefs that went to
Ottawa also went to Victoria; do you remember when they
went to Victoria?
A I only know that they went to Ottawa. It was only when
I phoned to get some definite information that I was
told that they also went -- the same group also went to
Victoria.
130
STERRITT,
Re-Exam
Mr. Rush
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Now, you were asked yesterday by Mr. Plant whether there
was a difference between the House of 'Wiigoob'l and the
House of Nikat'een, and you said there was no
difference?
THE INTERPRETER: What was your question again, that there was
no difference?
MR. RUSH: Yes.
THE INTERPRETER: Between Nikat'een and 'Wiigoob'l?
MR. RUSH: Nikat'een and 'Wiigoob'l?
THE INTERPRETER: And her answer was?
MR. RUSH: There was no difference.
131
STERRITT, J.
Re-Exam
Mr. Rush
THE INTERPRETER: A long time ago when the house was too
crowded they would build another house.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Would it just become two wilps?
A No, they would be two separate houses. In the physical
sense. Two buildings.
Q My question is, if there were two separate physical
buildings, would there also be two separate wilp that
would be created?
THE INTERPRETER: You're talking about people now?
MR. RUSH: Yes.
THE WITNESS: No, they're still the same.
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
THE WITNESS: I am aware that the laws of the white people are
different from ours and sometimes it is a little hard to
explain it.
MR. RUSH: I am aware of that too.
Q Yesterday, Mr. Plant asked how was the decision made in
132
STERRITT,
Re-Exam
Mr. Rush
the House of Gyedimgaldo'o to start the lawsuit; I
wanted to ask you if there was a feast in your house
that you hosted in the fall in 1985? Do you recall a
feast from your house?
A Yes.
Q Do you know, was there any money or any resources of
your house given to the Tribal Council for the land
claims case?
A After all our expenses were met there was some money
left in the dish and we divided it between the church
and the Tribal Council.
Q And was Gyedimgaldo'o, Sylvester Green, there?
A Yes.
Q Jessie, did Daniel Skawil speak English?
A Very little.
Q Did he write English?
A No.
Q The map that Mr. Plant showed you this morning that is
Exhibit seven, do you know who put the English words on
the map? I am just showing you Exhibit seven?
A No, wherever the map was made they put in the names.
I'm assuming that Dan provided the information.
BY MR. RUSH:
Q Now, Jessie, you were asked about Daniel Skawil's map
here and my question to you, you just told me a few
moments ago that you lived on the trap line of 'Wiik'aax
until you were an adult?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever live in the same way on the trap line in
the territory of Skawil?
A Yes.
Q How long did you live on the Skawil territory?
A I just went on the one trip with them, I was about 16
then.
Q You have mentioned -- Mr. Plant asked you about Simon
Gunnanoot; is David Gunnanoot Simon's son?
A Yes.
Q Do you know if David spent time on the trap line with
Simon?
A Yes he did. Until he was an adult.
Q You told us about Johnny Wilson's cabin, I think you
said located at Skawil Creek?
A Yes.
Q How many years has Johnny Wilson been on the trap line?
133
STERRITT, J.
Re-Exam
Mr. Rush