Delgamuukw 1986 01 26 Commission Evidence Martha Brown PDF

INDEX OF EXHIBITS REFERENCED TO IN COMMISSION EVIDENCE
Martha Brown - Exhibit 68
Volume 4 - Exhibit 68D
2. Photocopy of seven handwritten pages entitled 68 E

"Field Notes LCO Research", October, 1985
3A. Photocopy of map from the National Archives 68 F

of Canada numbered 12215, December 15, 1904
3B. Photocopy of map from the National Archives 68 G

3C. Photocopy of map from the National Archives 68 H

4. Obituary column from the Interior News, 68 I
September 18, 1985 regarding the death of
Matilda Morrison
5. Undated coloured map of Gitksan - Wet'suwet'en 68 J

traditional territories
65
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
FRANCES SAMPSON,
Interpreter, previously
Sworn
MARTHA BROWN
Witness called on behalf of the
Plaintiffs, Previously Sworn,
testifies, as follows:
UPON COMMENCING AT 1.00 p.m. ., 22 JANUARY, 1986

UPON COMMENCING AT 1.00 p.m. ., 22 JANUARY, 1986
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDIE (CONTINUED)
Q Mrs. Brown, this is a continuation of the
Cross-Examination that we were having in October of last
year, do you recall that?
A (Nodding affirmatively.)
Q At page 59 of the transcript I asked Mrs. Brown if her
house was a party to the land claim - - do you have a
copy of the transcript, Mr. Grant?
MR. GRANT: I'm sorry but I only have the wrong ones.
OFF THE RECORD
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Now, I'm going to repeat the question because it wasn't
answered at that time? is the House of Xhliimlaxha
making a claim against the Federal Government for a land
claim?
If counsel wishes to answer that, I have no
objection.
THE INTERPRETER: Is the House of Xhliimlaxha making a claim?
MR. GOLDIE: Against the Federal Government?
THE INTERPRETER: Federal Government? For the land claim?
MR. GOLDIE: For a land claim.
THE INTERPRETER: I don' t know how to word that.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q To the knowledge of Mrs. Brown is the House of
Xhliimlaxha making any claim against the Federal
Government?
Do you understand what I mean by that?
THE INTERPRETER: Yes.
MR. GRANT: Just to be clear, you're not necessarily referring
to a court claim?
66
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
MR. GOLDIE: I am talking about the Gitksan Carrier Tribal
Council comprehensive land claim which has been filed
with the Federal Government.
THE INTERPRETER: Filing a claim, you said?
MR. GOLDIE: Making.
THE INTERPRETER: I'm stuck on that.
MR. GRANT: The filing, are you stuck with?
THE INTERPRETER: Let's see, is Xhliimlaxha filing a claim?
MR. GOLDIE: Let me try it this way.
THE INTERPRETER : Okay.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Does Mrs. Brown know the Tribal Council has made a claim
against the Federal Government for land?
OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
THE WITNESS: It's been a while since we wanted it to happen.

Because whenever the Native people go out into the woods
or land the white people does not allow them to do
anything.
MR. GOLDIE: That is her answer?
MR. GRANT: If I could? You indicated at the beginning, and I
wanted to give you an opportunity to ask the Witness, do
you wish to clarify that point?
MR. GOLDIE: I would like to know and, as I said, I would be
happy to have a response by counsel, whether the House
of Xhliimlaxha is included in the Tribal council
comprehensive land claim against the Federal Government?
MR. GRANT: For the record, it is my understanding that in
November 1977 the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'tan Tribal Council,
then called the Gitksan Carrier Tribal Council,
submitted a claim to the Minister of Indian Affairs for
the Government of Canada. That claim was submitted on
behalf of the hereditary Gitksan and Wet'suwet'tan
chiefs including Xhliimlaxha and the people in the House
of Xhliimlaxha.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Was Mrs. Brown Xhliimlaxha at the time the claim was
filed in 1977?
A I forget.
Q In any event
A I forget how long since Frank died.
Q In any event Mrs. Brown is now the hereditary chief and
I would ask, as I did in October, that the documents
67
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
- constituting that claim be produced:

Is that possible now?
MR. GRANT: I believe that I produced to you, delivered in
earlier correspondence, as a result of your request both
the land claim map which was given to the Minister and
the declaration. Those were the documents that were
filed with respect to that claim.
MR. GOLDIE: Does that constitute the totality of the
documents?
MR. GRANT: Those are my instructions, yes.
MR. GOLDIE: We'll leave that.
MR. GRANT: You have received those documents, that I referred
to?
MR. GOLDIE: Just the declaration.
MR. PLANT: And the map.
MR. GOLDIE: We have both.
MR. GRANT: Yes.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Mrs. Brown, are you able to tell us what it is that your
house is seeking from the Federal Government in the
claim that was filed in 1977?
THE INTERPRETER: Are you able to claim?
MR. GOLDIE: Are you able to tell me what Xhliimlaxha wants
from the Federal Government.
THE INTERPRETER: I was asking if she understood and she said
yes.
THE WITNESS: All we wanted is for the Native people to be
free, to be able to do as they've always done long ago.
THE INTERPRETER: That is the answer she's giving.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Is it the same things that Xhliimlaxha wants in this
lawsuit?
THE INTERPRETER: I need a word for lawsuit.
MR. GOLDIE: What we are doing now?
MR. GRANT: Court action.
MR. GOLDIE: Court action, that is a phrase that is
understood.
THE WITNESS: One thing I don't like seeing, you can see it in
the TV, one Native person as soon as they do something
they're grabbed and thrown into jail.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Ask Mrs. Brown if in the court action the House of
Xhliimlaxha wants anything more than what it is
asking the Federal Government in the land claim?
68
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
THE INTERPRETER: I'm just not with it. Could you repeat
that question?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
MR. GRANT: Just as a note, I have given a notepad for the
Interpreter if you want to write down parts of the
answer or part of the question, that will assist you.
THE INTERPRETER: It will help me to remember.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q The question is this: is Xhliimlaxha asking for
anything more in the court action than it is in the land
claim which was filed in 1977?
A I would. . . .
THE WITNESS: I'll hear what the other chiefs are saying and
then I'll let you know what I want because they're
afraid. I hear Mary Johnson and Albert Tait, they're
afraid to speak up. They don't want to talk to you.
THE INTERPRETER: Is that answer good for you?
MR. GOLDIE: It will do for the present.
THE INTERPRETER: Okay.
MR. GOLDIE: Thank you.
Q Now, when I was last here we talked about the territory
of Xhliimlaxha and I ask now if there is a map which
shows the territory of Xhliimlaxha?
A I forgot to pick up the paper from Jimmy. Jimmy Angus.
Frank looked after the paper. Harold Eades took the
paper and gave it to Jimmy Angus and that's where it's
at now.
Q Could we have it for tomorrow?
A Maybe Ian can go and get it. He knows where Jimmy
lives.
Q Does Jimmy live on the reserve at Glen Vowell?
A Kispiox.
Q Kispiox. All right. Who is Ian?
THE INTERPRETER: He is living nearby.
MR. GOLDIE: We'll make that request of him later.
MR. GRANT: Just for the record, I'll leave it to you to
request of me what you want out of this, I'll note them.
MR. GOLDIE: I'll do it formally now: could we have for
tomorrow the paper that Mrs. Brown states is in the
possession of Jimmy Angus?
MR. GRANT: I'll investigate that. I'm not certain exactly
what the paper is she is referring to. I will
investigate and if we can locate the paper we will. If
there is any objection, I'll tell you tomorrow, as to
69
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
its production after I see it.

MR. GOLDIE: All right.
MR. GRANT: But if there is no objection I will produce it.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Mrs. Brown, can you tell us how many fishing stations
Xhliimlaxha had on the Kispiox River?
A I think I can.
Q Was it about eight miles above the Village of Kispiox?
MR. GRANT: Was what?
MR. GOLDIE: The fishing stations of Xhliimlaxha on the
Kispiox River?
MR. GRANT: I'm sorry, I think you just asked how many.
MR. GOLDIE: Yes, I'm sorry.
MR. GRANT: And then "what was it".
HR. GOLDIE: Quite right. Thank you.
Q How many fishing stations did Xhliimlaxha have on the
Kispiox River?
A A lot. Starting at one, Wilnastatx. Another one at
Miinhlgwogoot. Across to Ts'agaskiihlgenim'madim. On
to Wiluuskeexwt. And on to Xsa'anxiiya. On to
Xsitsihl'niit'in and on to Miinxsa. On to
Xsaxws'anseegit. On to Xsimiinhlhalskiit, and on to
Gisim'niit'ahlhak.
That's the end. From then on Dogoges, another
chief, owns the rest.
Q A r e any of these on Marty Allen's Ranch?
A T h e fishing ground called Wilsada'uhlts'ap is right at
t h e corner of Marty Allen's Ranch.
Q D i d Mrs. Brown point that place out to Marvin George?
A Y e s , we were on the highway and you couldn't really -- I
j u s t pointed down towards them and named the places.
Q Now, there has been produced to me a document dated
October 8, 1985 headed, and I quote? "Field Notes LCO
Research"; would you ask Mrs. Brown if she has seen
those notes?
A No.
Q All right.
A It is the work of Cecelia Norman, that is that claims up
the Kispiox.
MR. GRANT: For the record, I have just provided the
Interpreter with a copy of those notes.
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
MR. GRANT: Which isn't marked an Exhibit but there is a
circle on one of the names on top.
MR. GOLDIE: Thank you. Would you turn, Mrs. Sampson, to page
five of the notes that have been handed to you?
70
BROWN. M.
Cross_Ex.
Mr. Goldie

MR. GOLDIE: Do you see the bottom third of the page, the
heading Marty Allen's Gate?
MR. GOLDIE: And there is a heading fishing spots from here,
then there's the circle number two, do you see that?
MR. GOLDIE: To the right and below that there is a name
opposite, under the circle number two, and below that in
brackets "Trap carried away by water".
Is that the name she gave us a minute ago?
THE WITNESS : Yes .
Q What is the name of the other house whose fishing spot
or fishing stations are next to the stations of
Xhliimlaxha?
A Dogoges, and on the other side belong to Yagosip.
Q Those were all on the Kispiox River?
A Yes.
Q How many fishing stations on the Skeena River belong to
Xhliimlaxha?
A We just have one place at Hlamganimlo'op.
Q Is that name found on the paper that you are looking at,
Mrs. Sampson?
THE INTERPRETER: I don't know how to spell Hlamganimlo'op, so
I wouldn't know.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Is there a fishing station on the headwater of the Nass
River?
A No.
MR. GRANT: Are you referring to owned by Xhliimlaxha?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
Q Owned by Xhliimlaxha?
A No.
Q Is there one to your knowledge owned by members of the
Wolf Clan? Lax Gibuu?
MR. GRANT: Where?
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q On the Nass River?
A I never go up, I don't know. There's a lot of Wolf Clan
up the Nass.
Q Now, turning back to the fishing stations on the Kispiox
River, which are the stations of Xhliimlaxha, does
any other house have the right to fish from those
stations?
71
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
A It's Indian law to invite their friends whenever they

have something to eat. Whenever Granny goes up to
Kispiox, he invites his friends. They fish under the
ice and they fix a lot of steelhead. This was the law
of our Indian people a long time ago. We never sold
this.
Q Without an invitation are the friends able to fish there
under Indian law?
A No, they have to tell before they go up and if
permission is given then they go ahead.
Q Is that what happens today?
A They don't do that today. If you go up the Kispiox
Valley now the white man can easily come and point a gun
to chase you away. We cannot go up that area now.
Q Where does Xhliimlaxha fish today?
A Any place down river here.
Q Are there fishing stations on the river between here and
Kispiox?
A It's just recently been spots. It's just recently, just
recently after the high water, there are spots where the
river more or less created areas, that's where we fish
today.
Q Are those set aside for the Gitksan people?
THE INTERPRETER: Set aside?
MR. GRANT: Just a moment.
MR. GOLDIE: For the use of.
MR. GRANT: By whom? I am not sure what the -- the question
seems unclear.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Are there fishing stations where the Gitksan only may
fish? By white man's law? THE
INTERPRETER: Are the fishing station or?
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Are there fishing stations today where only Gitksan
people may fish according to white man's law?
THE INTERPRETER: She understood what you said and she said we
must be like white mans and go anywhere and fish. Yes.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q So the answer is, she can go anywhere and fish?
A Yes, go anywhere and fish.
Q Is there a fish house between here and Kispiox which is
72
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
used by the people of Glen Vowell?

A We have our own smoke houses now, one behind our houses
and. . . .
THE INTERPRETER: By her daughter, Eva's, and by her own
place.
MR. GRANT: You have handed me from the public Archives, they
appear to have handwritten notes and some sort of map,
MR. GOLDIE: Yes. The only reason I'm showing them to you is
I want to ask her if she knows the names of any of the
people who on one of those?
MR GRANT: These are records from the public Archives?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes. Incidentally before I go any further I
think I should have marked as an Exhibit the document
that we were referring to a few minutes ago entitled
"Field Notes LCO Research", October 1985, and I think
that will be Exhibit 2.
EXHIBIT NO. 2 - Photocopy of seven handwritten pages
entitled "Field Notes LCO Research",
October 1985.
A I saw the old man you mentioned. He froze during the

cold. While everybody was at a feast in Gitanmaax when
73
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
the old man froze.

Q How long
A He doesn't walk around. He just sits on a board, he
doesn't walk, sits on a board and slides around. He was
like a snail.
Q How long ago was it that he was frozen?
A Maybe I was about ten years old when it happened.
Q Timothy Williams?
A I forget them all.
Q You're doing pretty well. Billy Williams?
A My brother's -- my husband's brother....
THE INTERPRETER: My father's brother. Pardon me. Good thing

she's alert here, she can correct me!
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q What was his Indian name?
A Gutbwinuxs.
Q Do you recognize the name 'Wiit'in?
A No. We have a lot of names but hardly being used and
new names are created. Today children's names are being
used as chief's names.
MR. GRANT: You have been referring to this list, one of the
two sheets that you gave to me, and it appears to me it
would be appropriate as you're making reference to that,
you have gone through the list of these names, it should
be an exhibit?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes, I agree. Could I have that and we'll have
it marked.
I'm tendering as an exhibit a photocopy of a map
from the National Archives of Canada identified by the
number 0012213, and it purports to show the names of
various people at stations along the Skeena River,
upstream of the Kispiox Village. It is to accompany a
further photocopy of a map from the National Archives of
Canada numbered 12215, which is a diagramatic sketch of
the Skeena River with its branch Kispiox River showing
the fishing camps of the Kispiox Tribe of Indians, and
bears the date stamp of December 15th, 1904. I think
those two ought to be marked as Exhibit 3A and B if that
is satisfactory?
MR. GRANT: That is satisfactory. I believe the one with the
smaller number should be A.
MR. GOLDIE: Yes, so Exhibit 3A will be 12215 and Exhibit
3B will be 12213.
74
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
MR. GRANT: Before they're marked, I would like to clarify

whether or not there is a middle page that you have? It
appears they're non-sequentially one-three and one-five
or are they part of a larger document?
MR. GOLDIE: I believe I have 12214 Which appears to be
exactly as 12213 but you may wish to compare it?
MR. GRANT: They should be marked together.
MR. GOLDIE: All right. We'll have as 3C, 11214.
EXHIBIT NO. 3A - Photocopy of map from the National
Archives of Canada numbered 12215,
dated December 15th, 1904.
EXHIBIT NO. 3B Photocopy of map from the National

EXHIBIT NO. 3C Photocopy of map from the National

MR. GOLDIE Mrs. Sampson, are you able to read to the Witness
the names which appear on Exhibit 3A on the Kispiox
River side that I am pointing to?
MR. GRANT For the record, I just wanted a copy of those, do
you have another copy of that?
MR. GOLDIE I just have two copies.
THE INTERPRETER: You mean just read the names?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes, are you able to read to the Witness the
Indian names which are in the square that is opposite
the figures and initial 12M which I assume 12 miles,
can you read that?
MR. GRANT: On the left side of Exhibit 3A.
THE INTERPRETER: I can try, I can't promise.
MR. GOLDIE: You're going to do better than I would so why
don't you try?
MR. GRANT: What is the question with relation to?
MR. GOLDIE The question is, would you read those names to
the Witness and then I'm going to ask if she
recognizes them?
THE INTERPRETER: No, she won't be able to know what I'm
saying. I'll try another one...
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q That is the name of a chief or house?
A It is House or Fireweed, it is the name George Williams
took and there was a log house situated by -- he built a
75
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
log house, the white people took it now. There's a

ranch there. Just beyond Xsa axtitaksit.
THE INTERPRETER: I was asking her if there was an English
name there now but she is not sure.
THE WITNESS: I am not sure what they name the creek now.
Q Now, I am going to suggest to you that in the box
opposite 12 miles the small lettering reads Xhliimlaxha,
does it not?
THE INTERPRETER: I was trying to read the big.
MR. GOLDIE: Let's look at the small lettering now.
MR. GRANT: For the record, you had asked her to read the
big ones initially.
MR. GOLDIE: Yes, but I am saying
THE INTERPRETER: Now, what do you want me to say?
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Was there a fishing station of Xhliimlaxha on the
Kispiox River which was known by some other name than
Xhliimlaxha?
A We got no business in an area 12 miles because it
belongs to the Frog Clan.
Q So that is some other --it's a fishing station
belonging to some other house?
A There is a lot of fishing stations there starting right
at the bridge.
Q Is one of them Xhliimlaxha's?
A No.
MR. GOLDIE: All right, thank you.
MR. GRANT: Just for the record, I think the last question was
somewhat misleading in that earlier you asked about the
names -- you asked about how many fishing sites were
held by Xiimlaxha on the Kispiox, a number of names
were given and none of those names were Xhliimlaxha. I
am not certain whether you misunderstood the answer but
my understanding of the answer was those were actually
names of sites, and now you have asked if she had a
fishing site other than the name of Xhliimlaxha.
MR. GOLDIE: Let me expand on the question.
Q Were there any fishing sites used by Xhliimlaxha other
than the names of the fishing sites that you gave to
Marvin George?
THE INTERPRETER: Other than the one that belongs to
Xhliimlaxha?
MR. GOLDIE: That's right.
THE WITNESS: Just that side belonging to Dogoges where I
used to steal trouts. A site called Naskant'imi'itxwt
76
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
is where we used to. . . .
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q What was the name of the fishing station that she used
to steal trout at?
A The name of the place is Naskant' imi ' itxwt.
Q Is it Mrs. Brown's understanding now that Xhliimlaxha
cannot use any of the fishing sites that are set out in
Exhibit two? That is that document.
THE INTERPRETER: It is her understanding that?
MR. GOLDIE: Xhliimlaxha.
THE INTERPRETER: Cannot use?
MR. GOLDIE: Cannot use any of the fishing sites.
THE INTERPRETER: Other than her own?
MR. GOLDIE: No.
THE INTERPRETER: Oh.
MR. GOLDIE: That are set out in this? Can they be used
today, these fishing sites?
MR. GRANT: My only concern is that she hasn't read Exhibit
two. Possibly it could be clarified by the ones she was
describing at that time to Mr. George. Your question
will entail the Interpreter or the Witness going through
that list.
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
MR. GRANT: That is all I am saying. That is my main
objection. If you wish them to do that.
THE WITNESS: It's been clarified a long time ago that we
cannot go there any more.
THE WITNESS: Every time we go there now there's signs "No
Trespassing".
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q That was a long time ago?
A We used to go up there when George and Jonah were small.
Q When was the last time that Mrs. Brown fished on the
Kispiox River?
A I forgotten exactly how long since we have gone up
there. We've tried to go up there and we were chased
away by white people.
Q This is when Mrs. Brown was a little girl?
A I was already big, about 1952 I think was the last
time. We were chased away at two sites.
Q Would you describe for me please how this list which is
now Exhibit two came into being?
I believe Mrs. Brown stated that she was in a car
and pointed out to the places that she was describing?
Just ask her how she went about with Marvin George
77
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
doing this?
A We went with Susan. We drove along up the road and it
was quite cold. We got as far as Lake T'amgwihlaltxwt
and we came home. Which is now Marty Allen's Lake.
Q Mrs. Brown pointed out all of Xhliimlaxha fishing
stations to Marvin George and Susan Marsden?
A Yes, and I also showed them where the trails for the
trap lines.
Q And there were no fishing sites belonging to Xhliimlaxha
beyond the point at which they turned around and came
back?
A We haven't completed it. We didn't really complete it
all the way up. We had about four miles to go and we
come to a line belonging to Yagosip.
Q Belonging to?
A Yagosip.
THE INTERPRETER: I was asking whose house, Yagosip.
THE WITNESS: Belonging to Stephen Robinson.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Who is a Gitksan?
A Yes.
Q But if you had gone on another four miles that would
have completed the area in which Xhliimlaxha's fishing
stations were found?
A Yes.
Q Has Mrs. Brown had this list read back to her? Has
anybody read this list to her?
A No.
Q So at the present time she's not certain that Marvin
George or whoever wrote these down has correctly
understood what she was saying?
THE INTERPRETER: At present?
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q At present she doesn't know whether the person that she
was talking to has got what she said correctly? She
hasn't had this read back to her yet?
A No.
THE INTERPRETER: Sue's tired of sitting by the way.
MR. GOLDIE: All right, do you want to take a little break?
MR. GRANT: Go off the record then.
SHORT RECESS
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Mrs. Brown, you are now an elder, aren't you?
78
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
THE INTERPRETER: You are now an elder? Over 65?

BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q What I mean is, she is an elder of the Gitksan people?
Is she regarded as an elder?
A I'm the only one that's an old woman amongst the Wolf.
Q Was she consulted or interviewed about the traditional
Indian salmon fishery last fall in preparation of a
history of Indian fisheries?
I am referring to a newspaper article in the
Interior News dated 23rd October, 1985 which was
apparently prepared by the Tribal Council?
A All I can remember, where we were working with Lester
over at Eva's house. They took some pictures when I was
filleting fish. That's all I know of last fall.
Q All right. Thank you.
A Don was with us at the time. That was when Billy --
THE INTERPRETER: -- which is a grandson of hers --
THE WITNESS: -- were fishing along with Marvin.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q I have shown Mr. Grant two documents, photocopies of
what appear to be a petition of Right filed in or dated
March of 1983 and signed by Mr. Grant.
I was proposing to put to the Witness a question as
to whether - - t o confirm for me that Xhliimlaxha did not
participate in the Petition of Right which had for its
purposes the securing of additional or confirming of
rights under the bed of the river at certain fishing
stations?
MR. GRANT: Just one moment, before the Witness answers the
question.
MR. GOLDIE: Can I take it from you, Mr. Grant, that you can
can confirm Xhliimlaxha's not a part of the group that
was seeking the rights under the petition of Right?
MR. GRANT: I will confirm that the House of Xhliimlaxha
is not named in the Petition of Right, I think that is
apparent, but there is representation by house and also
representation by band and I don't believe -- I believe
from the evidence you have already adduced that
Xhliimlaxha would be incorporated into representation by
band.
MR. GOLDIE: I don't know that that is the evidence.
Q Mrs. Brown, do you have any recollection in 1983 of
seeking to have confirmed the rights to the use of the
beds of the rivers Skeena and Kispiox opposite your
fishing stations? If you don't have any recollection
79
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
please say so?

THE INTERPRETER: Do you have any recollection?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
THE INTERPRETER: 1983?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
THE INTERPRETER: Confirming the use of the beds?
MR. GOLDIE: The land under the water of the river.
THE INTERPRETER: The Skeena and Kispiox?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
THE INTERPRETER: Where the Skeena is running?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
THE INTERPRETER: Is that what you mean beds?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
Q Mrs. Brown, at page three of the transcript of October
31 you were describing for Mr. Grant the territories
around Kispiox and you asked this question:
"Can you describe which Chiefs held
territories around the Kispiox, around the
outside boundaries of your territories in the
Kispiox?"
You answered "Just a few of them" .
Mr. Grant asked: "Isn't Anda'ap one of those Chiefs?"
And you answered: "Guunaxst is one of the Chiefs."
I am not pronouncing that very well, would you give
Mrs. Brown the correct pronounciations of those two
names?
MR. GRANT: What is the question?
MR. GOLDIE: I just want her to have those names.
THE INTERPRETER: Gwininitxw is chief of....
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Is Gwininitxw chief of a house?
A Yes, there is a house for Gwininitxw.
Q What Clan?
A Wolf.
Q Has that house got its own territory?
A They have camps for fishing and out in the land, or the
territory.
Q Those camps and those fishing stations are for their use
alone?
A Yes.
Q Do they have places where they pick berries that belong
to the house alone?
A They have their own berry patches.
80
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
Q What is the Indian -- English name of Guunaxst?

A No.
Q Does not know. Is Guunaxst a chief who is alive now?
A He died a while ago.
THE INTERPRETER: She was just asking -- I guess I should
have said it -- I was asking if the name still exists.
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
THE INTERPRETER: She says I forgot who took the name.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q She doesn't know who took the name?
A I think the name is in Hazelton or Gitanmaax.
THE INTERPRETER: I heard that name too.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Does she know Rod Johnson?
A No. Where does he come from?
Q Gitsegyukla.
A I don't know anything about Gitsegyukla and Kitwanga.
Q How about Hawaaw' or George Wilson?
A Hawaaw' is Alice Wilson.
Q Is that a house at Kispiox?
A Yes. Yes, they do have their own house.
Q What Clan?
A There is four houses in the Wolf Clan, Hawaaw' is one of
them. 'Wii'Mugulsxw and Xhliimlaxha and Dogoges.
Q What about Eelast?
A I don' t know.
Q Isn't that Jimmy
THE INTERPRETER: Eelast.
THE WITNESS: That is Jimmy Angus' name.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Is that not a house at Kispiox?
A They have their own house.
Q Is it the Clan of Lax Gibuu?
A They're all Lax Gibuu, Wolf.
Q What about Willy Morrison, is he Gutgwinuxs?
THE INTERPRETER: Gutgwinuxs.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Is that a house at Kispiox?
A Yes.
Q And Roy Wilson, Guuwasan?
A They own across, a place at Gitangexhlast right where --
I forget the name -- where the store is, across from
Sportsman's Lodge.
81
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
Q Up the Kispiox River?

A Yes.
Q What about -- sorry?
A They own both sides, Guuwasan owns one side and Ma'us on
one area.
Q They have their territory up near Sportman's Lodge?
A Yes.
Q What about Woosimlaxha, Victor Mowat?
A There's two of them, Gutgwinuxs and the mountain we call
Stagait, which is known today as Caribou.
THE INTERPRETER: It just slipped my mind what they call it
today.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q But the
A No. Kids used to call it One Wing Camp. There's a
mountain right across the river here, another mountain
called Wilsamats'a. Both Gutgwinuxs and Woosimlaxha
both hold title, both mountains.
MR. GRANT: For the record, she was pointing across the
Skeena River from Glen Vowell where we are. I am not
certain of the direction but she was pointing generally
across the river.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Woosimlaxha is Fireweed?
A Yes.
Q What about Xwtsimxwts'iin? Joshua Campbell?
A Frog Clan.
Q He's at Kispiox?
A Gitanmaax.
Q Gitanmaax?
A Yes, Gitanmaax.
Q Guuhadakxw? Thomas Wright?
A They came from Kisgagas, abandoned village.
Q They live now in Kispiox?
A Hazelton.
THE INTERPRETER: Or Gitanmaax.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q But that house has its own territory?
A They have their own territories up Kisgagas way.
Q Those houses which I have read to you, Eelast, Jimmy
Angus Junior; Hawaaw', Charles Olson? Or George Wilson?
MR. GRANT: What is the question?
THE WITNESS: They're all the same. Hawaaw'.
82
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Roy Wilson Senior, Willy Morrison, Victor Mowat, Joshua
Campbell, Thomas Wright, none of those appear to be in
the court action, is that your understanding?
A Some of the names you mentioned they're not very active
but Arthur, I have seen him present.
Q Arthur?
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Which one is that?
A 'Wii 'Mugulsxw is Arthur Wilson.
Q George Wilson?
A Yes.
Q But the others are not active chiefs, is that Mrs.
Brown's evidence?
THE INTERPRETER: Do you mean Joshua Campbell?
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Joshua Campbell, Jimmy Angus, Willy Morrison, Victor
Mowat?
A They are always there. They are all active except for
Joshua because he is old and cannot walk around. I
haven't seen him for a long time.
Q Can she tell me why they're not in the court action?
A I don't know, and I know that Tribal Council takes in
their words, and one of them is Gertie....
THE WITNESS: She's very active in speaking and it's written

down.
THE INTERPRETER: That's all.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Well, I still don't understand why they're not in
action, if she knows? In the court action?
MR. GRANT: You're asking if she knows why they're not in
the court action?
MR. GOLDIe: Yes.
MR. GRANT: That is the question.
THE.WITNESS: I don't know, maybe they're scared.
OFF THE RECORD
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q I asked you, Mrs. Brown, when we were last here, if you
83
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
knew the number of people who are members of Xhliimlaxha

and you said that David Harris' wife may know; has she
given you a list of the members of Xhliimlaxha?
A She travels around to all the Native people and takes
the names down in each of the houses. In a way she sees
it a chief name and when the chief dies a name goes to
another. The name Axti Hix, seven times it has been
passed on. She's just starting ours. She presented it
when there was a meeting at Hawilget.
Q Well, that was for the House of Axti Hix?
Q But has she made a list of the members of Xhliimlaxha
yet?
A She's working on it.
Q Do you know, Mrs. Brown, apart from the work that Mrs.
Harris is doing, who the members of your house are?
A I know some of them and I forget some of them.
Q A man who marries a woman of the House of Xhliimlaxha
becomes a member of the House of Xhliimlaxha, is that
correct?
THE INTERPRETER: A man who marries in the house?
MR. GOLDIE: A woman of the House of Xhliimlaxha becomes a
member of the House of Xhliimlaxha, is that correct?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR GOLDIE: The answer is?
THE INTERPRETER: She said yes.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q So that would mean that a white man who married a woman
from the House of Xhliimlaxha would become himself a
member of the house?
THE INTERPRETER: White man who marries into Xhliimlaxha's
house:
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
THE INTERPRETER: Becomes a member?
MR. GOLDIE: Of the house.
MR. GRANT: The question is, who marries a woman who is a
member of Xhliimlaxha' s house? I just want to be clear.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q I'm referring to, if a white man marries a woman who is
a member of the House of Xhliimlaxha he becomes a member
of that house, is that correct?
A They will accept him if he is a good man but if not, no.
MR. GRANT: Go off the record for a moment.
OFF THE RECORD
84
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Mrs. Brown, you were asked during Mr. Grant's
Examination if you knew Matilda Morrison and you
answered yes, do you remember that?
A Yes.
Q If I understood you correctly you said that she was a
member of Eelast?
A Yes.
Q Of the Wolf Clan?
A Yes.
Q It's Jimmy Angus who is the hereditary chief of Eelast?
A Yes.
THE INTERPRETER: She likes your pronounciation!
MR. GOLDIE: If she likes it I like it.
OFF THE RECORD
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q That house has its own territory?
A They have their own land, territory, and also fishing.
Q Can you tell me where their land, territory is in
relation to Xhliimlaxha's?
A My mother's not close to them. They're much closer to
Nuxs and Frog Clan. Because there is a reason for that,
they grew up in Txemsen, meaning Nass area. The old man
married in the Nass area and that is where they grew up.
Q And is that where their territory is?
A No, they have their own territory somewhere up behind
Kispiox.
Q Beyond Marty Allen's farm?
A No, just beyond Kispiox.
Q Is that where their fishing station is or their hunting
territory?
A They used to set traps where once was Miracle Valley.
Miracle Ranch.
Q Miracle Ranch?
THE WITNESS: By Miracle Valley, there is a road going down
and there is a place called Gwunsabaya where the river
is, where the river swirls.
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
THE WITNESS: In that area they have a smoke house where they
work at.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q You described the feast that followed the death of
Matilda Morrison; she died in the summer, did she not?
85
BROWN, M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
A Yes.
Q I am going to show Mrs. Sampson a copy of the Interior
News dated September 18th, 1985 and in the Obituaries it
reads, and I'm quoting it?
"Morrison, Matilda, born March 19, 1926 in
Kispiox, died August 29th, 1985. Matilda was
59 years old and a housewife. She is survived
by her spouse, Joseph Morrison; children
Robert, Janet, Gordon, Archie, Ross, Andy,
Alma, Rachel, Linda, Gayle, Brian, Hazel, as
well as sisters Lavina Bugg and Alice Wilson
both of Terrace, B.C."
I am just stopping there. Is that Matilda
Morrison?
A It is Matilda Morrison.
Q It's the same person?
A Yes. I think she has two sisters living, I don't know
how many daughters she has.
Q It goes on to state in this notice, and I'm reading?
"Funeral service was at 2.00 p.m. on September
23, 1985 at the Kispiox United Church."
Just stopping there. Did Mrs. Brown attend a
funeral service at the Kispiox United Church for Matilda
Morrison?
A No, just the feast I went to.
Q Just the feast. Why did Mrs. Brown not attend the
funeral of Matilda Morrison at Kispiox?
A I cannot walk, it is only when I can arrange rides that
I get to go.
Q That is a good answer.
A I know that's pretty good, that's why I answered.
MR. GRANT: Possibly that notice should be made an Exhibit?
MR. GOLDIE: It is immaterial to me, I read in the parts I
wanted.
MR. GRANT: Okay.
MR. GOLDIE: That will be Exhibit four.
EXHIBIT NO. 4 - Obituary column from the Interior

News, September 18, 1985 regarding
the death of Matilda Morrison.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q You told Mr. Grant that when a contribution was made at
a feast for one house from another house that the second
house was given privileges with respect to the resources
of the first and that this extended to the berry picking
spots; do you remember telling Mr. Grant that?
86
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
A Berry patch?
THE INTERPRETER: Or did you name a certain region?
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Berry picking spot?
A This is one of our Indian laws.
Q Yes? A It's
in the traditional law that the families help each
other out.
THE INTERPRETER: And she named a spot, Hlamganimlo'op.
THE WITNESS There's a lot of families there, they all come
and take some fish, what they need. And they don't do
that today.
MR. GOLDIE: Perhaps you answered the next question.
THE WITNESS: Today you should buy it from me before I give
it to you, if I was fishing. We do have the white man's
way now.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Xhliimlaxha made a contribution to.the funeral feast of
Matilda Morrison, is that right?
A That's our Indian law. We help each other in the Wolf
Clan.
Q As a result
A Which is known as hawal.
Q As a result of making that contribution does the House
of Xhliimlaxha have the right to use any of the
resources of Matilda Morrison's house?
A I can if I'm in need. I can ask the owner or the chief. Q
Does Mrs. Brown know where were the berry picking spots
or territory of the House of Eelast?
A No.
Q So she doesn't know whether that territory is part of a
white man's farm or is still available to be used as a
berry picking spot?
A The Native people got no place to go now. Like our
berry patch is all farm land now and it's the same, all
berry patch belong to Ma'us.
MR. GOLDIE: To who?
THE INTERPRETER: Ma'US.
MR. GOLDIE: Oh yes.
Q Mrs. Brown, you told Mr. Grant about a trap line that
you I believe had once used; what animals did you catch
on that trap line?
A Whatever we catch, whatever there, marten, linx.
Whatever is on the territory we trap.
Q Is this taken to the Hudson's Bay post in Hazelton and
traded?
87
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
A We used to take it to the Hudson's Bay and it was

reasonably good and there was a man named Dawson, he was
really big.
Q Was this trap line registered with the government?
A No.
Q Many people of the Gitksan use registered trap lines
though, do they not?
A Just a few should be, to register. In the old days they
didn't ask to register just around the village.
Q When you say
THE INTERPRETER: Or outside the village.
MR. GOLDIE: I'm not sure I understand that response.
Q Do you mean that the government did not ask the Gitksan
people to register their trap lines other than when they
were just around the village?
A No. Round about 1918 or maybe 1920 was about the time
they were asked to register the trap lines and they were
also asked to make a map. There was an Indian agent who
said that.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q The map showed the trap lines?
THE INTERPRETER: Pardon me?
MR. GOLDIE: The question is, did the map to which she
referred show the trap lines?
MR. GRANT: I am just concerned that there seemed to be an
answer while you were asking that question.
THE INTERPRETER: She thinks the name of the Indian agent was
Mr. Hyde. And the question you asked was?
MR. GOLDIE: Did the map to which she refer show the trap
lines?
THE WITNESS: There was no maps but people who went out to
their trap lines did try to draw, you know, rivers or
what areas they had. The owners of these trap lines.
BY MR. GOLDIE: Q This
is when they registered? A Yes, when
they first tried to register.
Q Can she tell me again if she hasn't already why
Xhliimlaxha did not register its trap lines?
A There is an area far away, the headwaters of the Skeena
named Miinhl laxmihl, was registered for about four
88
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
years in a row by Philip Wilson.

Q Philip Wilson is a member of what house?
A He belonged to Xhliimlaxha, that is why he registered
it.
Q Was that registration not continued?
A He registered it, Philip did, and when he died it was
registered by George Sexsmith probably another four
years.
Q George Sexsmith became Xhliimlaxha?
A (In English) My uncle.
Q Did the registration lapse after George Sexsmith
registered the trap line in his name?
THE INTERPRETER: What do you mean by lapse? Ended?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Yes. He was burned in a camp and all the papers
were burned with him.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q And that is why the registration has not been continued?
A Yes. That was when Cecelia and Frank Harris picked it
up. I hope Ian will go and get the paper I was talking
about from Jimmy.
Q Will that show the trap lines?
A Yes. Cecelia registered it and put all her children's
name down, Arnold, John, Robert, Joannie and Vicky. The
work was done by -- with Frank Harris. You will see it
when they bring it.
Q All right, thank you. I'll wait until I see it then.
Mrs. Brown, at page 16 of the transcript of the 31
October, Mr. Grant asked you about where you picked your
berries and you said that you were not able to go up to
a lake because of "No Trespassing" sign and then he
asked you these questions.
Question: "Who put those signs up?"
Answer: "White people."
Question: "Do you still harvest blueberries?"
Answer: "There's absolutely no blueberries there
now the farmers are all up there."
Question: "You're referring to 'up there' which
I'll assume is up river but this is your
territory in the Kispiox valley you're talking
about?"
Mrs. Sampson: "This side of the river."
Mrs. Brown: "Where they're farming now."
Question: "Is that the Gitksan name for it?"
Mrs. Sampson: "Yes. Where the Campbells live, I
don't know what that creek is."
89
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
Mrs. Brown: "That is the name of the creek,

Tsihl'niit'in."
Question: Was this creek shown to Marvin George
when he went up there with you?"
Answer: "I just pointed it out from across the
river because we were on the other side."
Question: "I asked you what berries you do not
pick now, maybe it's easier to ask you which
of the berries you picked in the old days you
can still pick on your territory now, if any?"
Answer: "I told you before there was absolutely
nothing. At one time we were able to go where
mom's house used to be and today there's a
fence across and a big sign 'No Trespassing'."
Q The reason for these "No Trespassing" signs is because
those lands are now occupied by farmers?
MR. GRANT: I believe you should give that section to the
Interpreter. You have read a long section and I am not
sure what the Witness has picked up and what she hasn't.
MR. GOLDIE: If you like.
THE INTERPRETER: She remembers a place called Tsihl'niit'in,

it's all farm land now. Does that answer?
Q So the "No Trespassing" signs that Mrs. Brown referred
to are there because those lands are now being farmed by
farmers, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Now, in this court action does Mrs. Brown want those
farmers sent away so that there can be berry picking
there again?
A If we could go and pick there again but I don't know if
there will be any berry crop there.
Q Well, what does she want done in this court action?
A As long as they agree what berry patch is where my
mother's house used to be, if we could pick there and
maybe the children can trap up above.
Q So she doesn't mind the farmers being there as long as
she can pick all the berries there are, is that right?
A Yes, they can stay there if they're nice people.
Q And if they're not?
A Then I'll kick them.
Q Now, Marty Allen's farm was farmed by white people
before Mrs. Brown was born, is that not correct?
A No, we were fairly young when a man named George Burns
90
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
came .
Q Is it
A There's a place where Ted Campbell is, that's where we
used to berry pick. Ted Campbell was a very nice man
and often....
THE INTERPRETER: He was a nice man, was willing to assist

her mother. Whatever they're doing.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Well, just going back to one of the names you mentioned,
George Burns, did he not farm on that property before
Martha was born?
A He cleared quite a big area where the wolves nearly took
us. When we were digging potatoes the wolves were right
close by here during the night.
Q Hadn't George Burns cleared that land before Mrs. Brown
was born?
A There's a patch of land there, what we call Laxamaaxws,
where trees don't grow, and that is what he fenced up.
Q That was done before Mrs. Brown was born?
A Yes.
Q Thank you.
A (In English) It's four o'clock.
Q It's two minutes to. Would you like to stop now?
A (In English) Go ahead, I'm hungry.
MR. GOLDIE: We won't go very much longer.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q You described for Mr. Grant a feast for Jessie Olson; do
you remember that?
A Yes.
MR. GOLDIE: Was the answer to that yes?
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Some eight to $10,000 was put in the pot, do you
remember how many people would have contributed that sum
of money?
A All the Wolf tribe.
Q Can Mrs. Brown guess at the number?
A Me. Eva. Marvin. Lloyd. Johnny Olson. Axel Olson.
Rupert Olson. Amanda Johnson.
91
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
THE INTERPRETER: The names she mentioned, those were the

immediate family, and then there is the House of
'Wiigoob'l's contributed. And another house Dogoges.
And Spookx, another house, contribute.
Q These would all be members of the Wolf Clan?
A Yes.
Q They came from Kispiox, Hazelton and Glen Vowell?
A Yes.
Q What do those people do? Do they work in a sawmill or
do they
THE INTERPRETER: Which people?
MR. GOLDIE: I am talking now about the people who earn money
that would contribute to Jessie Olson's feast?
THE WITNESS: Some of them at the sawmill.
BY MR GOLDIE:
Q This is the
A The Department of Highway, where Alex Olson works.
Logging truck Rupert Olson drives. John Olson owner of
a store.
Q Yes?
A Amanda, she is an operator for I don't know how long,
operator for B.C. Tel.
Q Yes?
A Or Telephone.
Q Yes. Is that pretty much what her recollection is now?
THE INTERPRETER: That's her family.
MR. GOLDIE: Yes, I think I'll leave it at that then. Until
tomorrow morning.
THE WITNESS: I'm lazy for tomorrow.
PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4.03 p.m. 23 JANUARY, 1986.
I hereby certify the foregoing to

be a true and accurate transcript
of the proceedings herein to the
best of my skill and ability.
Veronica Harper (Ms)

Official Court Reporter
VH/lre-Feb. 1/86 B.C.R.S.A. #263
92
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
FRANCES SAMPSON,
Interpreter, previously
Sworn
MARTHA BROWN
Witness called on behalf of the
Plaintiffs, Previously Sworn,
testifies, as follows:
UPON COMMENCING AT 11.00 a.m., 23 JANUARY, 1986
Q Mrs. Brown, do you recall Mr. Grant suggesting to you

that there were three main tribes of the Gitksan, the
Wolf, the Fireweed and the Frog; is there not one other
tribe or Clan, namely the Eagle, that is part of the
Gitksan?
A It is just a crest for the Fireweed, it's a crest. Geel
has his own crest. Gutgwinuxs has his own crest, it's a
crest. Geel has his own crest. Gutgwinuxs has his own
crest. Anda'ap is another one. He has his own crest.
OFF THE RECORD
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q My question, is there not another Clan like the Wolf and
Fireweed which is called the Eagle?
A No. We are not like the Nisgas. Kitwancool, is the
same way, they have extra. There's four Clans in the
Nisga area and the same in the Kitwancool but we are not
like that.
MR. GOLDIE: "We" being?
THE INTERPRETER: The Gitksan.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Are not the Kitwancool people Gitksan?
A They are Gitksan people but they are more like the Nisga
people.
Q I am going to show you a map which I saw on the wall of
this room and I've borrowed it to look at it; have you,
Mrs. Brown, seen that map?
A Yes. I forget who showed it to me.
MR. GRANT: Let her look at it closely.
THE WITNESS: Somebody showed it to me, whether it was in
Hazelton -- I forget where someone showed it to me.
93
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Did you, Mrs. Brown, have anything to do with its
preparation? Did you help the people who made it in
determining the boundaries of the territory of the Wolf
Clan, for instance?
A No.
Q That map shows some territory belonging to the Eagle
Clan, would that be part of the Kitwancool people?
A It's from the Nisga people. They want to claim land
over in this area.
Q The Nisga?
THE WITNESS : Yes .
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Is that land that the Nisga people say is theirs?
MR. GRANT? For the record I would like -- first of all I
believe this map should be marked as an Exhibit.
MR. GOLDIE: I'm going to do that but let me ask the
question
MR. GRANT: I have no objection to the question. I just want
to clarify, the Witness isn't looking at the map and it
appears from the record that there's different coloured
shades in the Eagle
MR. GOLDIE: Mr. Grant, let me deal with that please. I am
pursuing a line of questioning which arises out of an
answer
MR. GRANT: I want her to be able to look at the map itself.
MR. GOLDIE: I am not talking about the map right now.
Q The question was, is the land which the Nisga claims is
theirs part of the land which the Gitksan people say is
theirs?
A The land is that they're claiming belongs to the
Gitksan, for example, 'Niist territory. They're
claiming right alongside the area called Miinhl
laxmihl. This is, this is their doing, they've worked
hard trying to claim the area. Just lately they claim
they gave it up. They know that they cannot claim the
areas they want.
Q Now, I'm going to ask Mrs. Brown if she can indicate on
that map which we referred to a few minutes ago the
territory that she is talking about but, first, let's
have the map marked as an Exhibit -- is it six?
MR. GRANT: Five, I believe.
EXHIBIT NO. 5 - Document showing map of area, with

different coloured areas.
94
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Now, Mrs. Brown, when you look at that map -- and
perhaps Mrs. Sampson can point out to you where Hazelton
is on it -- would you try and point out the area that
you have been talking about which the Nisga people have
been working to say is theirs?
THE INTERPRETER: She can't really clearly see the map.
MR. GOLDIE: Would it be possible for a little more light to
be shone on the map?
THE INTERPRETER: Skeena River she wants.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Now, if you look to Kispiox
MR. GRANT: Just for the record, she's been asking where the
Skeena is and I have been showing her where the river is
marked.
MR. GOLDIE: Excuse me, let Mrs. Sampson do it please.
THE WITNESS: I think it's on the left where Miinhl laxmihl
is located.
THE WITNESS: Coming towards us as -- is where Miinhl laxmihl

is belong to 'Niist is what they're claiming, trying to
claim. Another area they claim is belonging to
Guniiho'oxs.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Now, Mrs. Brown pointed in the general area of the upper
left hand corner of the map -- is that right, Mrs.
Sampson?
MR. GRANT: It appears now where that number 37 is just above
the mid line of Exhibit five, she was pointing to. For
the record.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Mrs. Brown, do you know a lake by the name or Meziaden
Lake?
A You know where we go up and come to the cafe and another
road goes to the left, that is where Meziaden is. When
we used to go up to berry pick.
Q Is any part of that area said by the Nisga to be their
territory?
MR. GRANT: Which area are you referring to?
MR. GOLDIE: Where the road turns to the left at Meziaden
Lake, just what the Witness described.
95
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Mr. Goldie
THE WITNESS: They try to claim the whole area.

BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Including what she has just described?
A Yes.
Q Thank you.
A That is why James Morrison is now building cabins up in
that area. On their trap line.
Q On their trap line?
THE WITNESS : Yes .
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q And James Morrison is from Kispiox?
A He is from Kisgagas. Before when they used to go up
there they used to go towards here and then they crossed
the Skeena and over a mountain called poison Mountain.
Q All right.
A I'm not sure what the Gitksan called the mountain.
Q I would like a little more help with respect to where
James Morrison is building cabins but, first, I want to
know is James Morrison a Gitksan?
A They have territories and there's reason for those
territories. For instance, place called Miinhl laxmihl,
they killed one of my great grandmothers, and I don't
know how many great grandmothers.
THE INTERPRETER: I just lost my space here.
THE WITNESS: The settlement for killing grandmother, the
whole territory belonged to Stikeen people, because of
the killing or murder in turn as settlement for the
blood, they gave the territory to the Gitksan people.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q That Was the stikeen people?
A Yes.
All right. But James Morrison is building cabins, if I
understood what Mrs. Brown said, because the Nisga are
making some claims on the territory including that just
around Meziaden Lake; my question is, is James Morrison
a member of the Gitksan people?
We are all the same, Kisgagas people are Gitksan.
Q What house does James Morrison belong to?
A I forget who the chief is. I think it's Txawok. They
come from Kisgagas.
Q Does Mrs. Brown know what Clan he belongs to? Is he a
member of the Wolf Clan or Fireweed or
A He belongs to the Wolf tribe but the wolf is white and
96
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
the crest is the same with 'Wiik'aax.

Q Thank you.
A Masgibuu is white wolf.
Q Was there anybody from Kitwancool attending the funeral
feast of Jessie Oldson, Mrs. Brown's sister?
A I don' t know.
Q Now, Mrs. Brown said in the course of her earlier
evidence that in the olden days a territory was talked
about at a feast; would you ask her if that's correct?
A The answer is yes, they always talked about territories
in a feast and whenever one of the members is going to
go up to the territory often he will invite other
members, whoever can come, in consideration due to the
contribution to the feast.
Q I understood her to say that at feasts today territory
is not talked about, is that correct?
A We don't talk about territories today.
Q Why is that?
A We're forgetting, we're white people now.
Q Is it because the people no longer use the territories
that they are not talked about at the feasts?
A Yes.
Q I want to ask some questions about the seating
arrangements at feasts.
A Now, I am not really sure about all the seatings.
Q At a feast of the Wolf Clan who is the head chief?
A Me.
Q Where do you sit?
A I sit on the chair.
Q Who sits on your right on a chair?
MR. GRANT: Just a point of clarification, you're asking about
at a Wolf feast?
THE WITNESS: If the Fireweed holds a feast I sit on the end
of the table. On one side of the table sits 'Wii
Eelast, and on the left is 'Wii 'Mugulsxw, and next down
is Hawaaw'.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Is 'Wii Eelast a chief of the 'Wii Eelast Clan or house
I mean?
A 'Wii Eelast has his own household and it's just recent
years that the seatings were changed where we all sit
together.
Q Is 'Wii Eelast Jimmy Angus?
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, nodding.
Q Mrs. Brown, you described for Mr. Grant that when you
97
BROWN. M.
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Mr. Goldie
were between the ages of 12 and 19 you went to the

territory of your grandfather, Walter Gale; do you
recall giving that information to Mr. Grant?
A I remember everything I have said because I don't know
how many times I've answered the same questions.
Q Thank you. Can you tell me where Walter Gale's
territory is?
A There's....
THE INTERPRETER: She's pointing on her knee.
THE WITNESS: There's a place called Miinhl laxmihl and there
is a mountain next to it. The territory belongs to Gale
on the other side of the mountain, opposite of Miinhl
laxmihl.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Is that beyond Kispiox?
A (In English) About 300 miles.
Q How many days did it take to get there?
A (In English) About one week. Six horses.
Q Is the House of Geel the owner of that territory where
you went with Walter Gale?
A They were in the same situation as we were. Some of
their members were murdered or killed and the settlement
was when they turned that territory over to them.
Q That was part of the territory that the Stikeen people
turned over as compensation for the murder?
A Most of the territories up along the Skeena once
belonged to the Stikeen people.
Q And that territory which is part of the Gale territory
is near the territory of Xhliimlaxha?
THE INTERPRETER: I have to write this down. That territory?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes, which is Gale's territory, is near the
territory of Xhliimlaxha from the same settlement turned
over by the Stikeen people?
MR. GRANT: I don' t think the answer was the same.
MR. GRANT: So I think your question may be misleading.
MR. GOLDIE: I'll clarify that.
THE INTERPRETER: Shall I ask her this one?
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Ask her if Gale's territory is close to the territory of
Xhliimlaxha?
A It's right next to it, the half mountain is Gale's and
the other half is Xhliimlaxha.
Q Was the territory turned over to the two houses by the
98
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
A Yes.
Q What is the name -- Sorry.
A Beyond Galdo's belongs to the Stikene people, the place
called Anxhlimooxt. All this area belongs to the
Stikene people. The Stikene people used to come and
murder people so the settlement was turned over to
various people, for instance, 'Niist, that is why this
is their territory.
Q Who is the chief of -- who is Geel today? What is the
English name of Geel today?
A Walter Harris. He doesn't -- he's not really eager to
be amongst a situation like this. His mother, Clara, is
quite pleased that I know all the names. If I could go
up I could name the various mountains.
Q Geel is not part of the court action, is it?
A I don't know, Neil John mentioned that he is about ready
to participate.
Q Neil John being Mr. Sterritt?
A Yes.
Q Thank you. In the map that Mrs. Brown said she would
ask Ian to get, and that I requested production of, is
the territory of Xhliimlaxha that we have been talking
about, namely up near this mountain, is that shown on
that map?
A I never really checked the paper out.
MR. GOLDIE: All right. Thank you.
MR. GRANT: Just for the record, I have indicated this
morning
THE WITNESS: They drew it funny, it's all -- the only thing
they showed was where does the Nass River run. That is the
only view.
MR. GOLDIE: All right, I am not going to ask any further
questions on that territory until we see the map.
MR. GRANT: For the record, I've indicated that I was unable
to get it for this morning but I'll endeavour to get it
so you have an opportunity to look at it.
MR. GOLDIe: Thank you.
MR. GRANT: If it still exists or able to be obtained.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Mrs. Brown, Mr. Grant asked you if there were telegraph
cabins on either your territory or Gale's territory, and
my note is that you said that there was only a short
distance on the territory where the telegraph line went
through; is there only one cabin on your territory? One
telegraph cabin on your territory?
99
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Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie

THE INTERPRETER: Do I repeat your question to her?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
MR. GRANT: Yes.
THE WITNESS: There is only one cabin. Then the line turned
and it went over another mountain.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Is this the telegraph line?
A Yes.
Q Is it the eighth cabin which is on the territory of
Xhliimlaxha? A I'm
not sure, it's either eighth or ninth.
Q The telegraph line was there when you were a little
girl, was it, Mrs. Brown?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever hear of any objections by Xhliimlaxha to
the telegraph line going through the territory of
Xhliimlaxha?
A No. The Native people long ago were like little
children, whichever way the white people pushed them
that is the way they went along. They believed in the
white people that when they came they were going to help
the Native people so whatever they did they went along
with it.
Q Yes. Mrs. Brown, are you a member of the Band Council
of Glen Vowell Reserve?
A I believe so.
Q Has the Band Council sought to have more land added to
the Reserve?
A I don't know. I don't think so.
Q Does Mrs. Brown know how many members there are of the
Glen Vowell Band?
A I don't know.
Q Do a number of members of the band live off the reserve?
A A lot have moved off.
Q About half of them?
MR. GRANT: I just don't want the Witness to guess. If she
knows, fine.
MR. GOLDIE: She's entitled to guess if she wants to. This
is Cross-Examination.
THE WITNESS: I don't know how many moved away. All I know is
Brenda moved.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Is there a chief who is the head of the Wolf Clan? A
100
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
head chief?
THE INTERPRETER: I don't know how to translate that.
THE WITNESS: You're nosy, I'm sitting right here.
MR. GOLDIE: That's what I thought!
THE WITNESS: Thank you for your nosy.
BY MR. GOLDIE
Q Mrs. Brown, do you remember Mrs. Loring, the wife of the
Indian agent many years ago?
A My mother used to talk about it when they first moved
there, to the village, they lived across....
THE WITNESS: They had a place where they lived called

Hiisgama'urn.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Did Mrs. Brown know Mrs. Loring's first husband, Mr.
Hankin?
A No, but I do know Arthur Hankin.
Q That is Mrs. Loring' s son?
A Yes.
Q Was Mrs. Loring a Native person? Was she Indian?
A He's from the Kitwanga.
Q She was?
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q So she was a Gitksan from Kitwanga?
A Yes. The ghost of these people will come upon us if we
keep talking about them!
OFF THE RECORD
SHORT RECESS
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Mrs. Brown, I want to ask you a few questions about
Exhibit two -- perhaps you might have that. Do you
remember going out with Marvin George and Susan Marsden
in a car from Kispiox and driving north from there and
telling them of various places along the road? You
remember that, don't you?
A I'm getting tired of answering the same question. It
must be at least a hundred times the same question
answered that.
101
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
Q Good. On page one, at 10 kilometres, you identified a

place for Tomlinson's baby daughter; who was Tomlinson
please?
A I forget who the Tomlinson were, Robert Tomlinson I
think is -- his sister's daughter. The place is called
Xsa angexhlast.
Q Right around there is the land of Ma'us?
A The Frog Clan holds that territory. A place called
Gwunsabaya right on to -- right now the 17 mile bridge.
Right about where now steelhead camp is situated.
Q Then beyond the land of Ma'us or the Frog Clan is the
land of Dogoges?
THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, where are you referring to?
MR. GOLDIE: I' m on page two, 14.1 kilometres.
THE INTERPRETER: What was the name again?
THE WITNESS: Yes it is.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Is that the same thing as Hawaaw'?
A They have the same house or same place.
--- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN
THE WITNESS: They're all at the same place.

BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q But is it the same house?
A Yes.
Q Does that mean that there are two different names for
the same house then?
A There's three chief name in one House of Lax Gibuu.
Q Can she give me the other, third name?
A Hawaaw'.
MR. GRANT: Just for clarification, it may be unclear that
Ma'us and Dogoges were in the same house. I am not sure
if that is how the question was asked.
MR. GOLDIE: No.
MR. GRANT: So you may want to re-phrase that question.
MR. GOLDIE: I think it is quite clear, Ma'us and Dogoges
are in the same house.
Q Isn't that right?
A They are all the same.
Q Page three, at the top of the page, the person who's
writing this down has a definition of boundary and it
reads:
" Don't go on the top of hill or down the
other side if you get something there they
102
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
take it away from you" .

Would you ask her if that is the way in which every
boundary is defined? That is to say, it marks the
difference between the land where you can take game and
keep it as opposed to land where you cannot keep it if
you take the game? Do you follow me?
A I'm getting tired of this. It's the Indian law. For
instance, it's the Indian or Gitksan or Indian law that
we do have a line or boundary that whoever owns on one
side can take from that side but they cannot cross the
line and take from the other side otherwise they take
it away and in turn the other side cannot enter into our
boundary.
MR. GOLDIE: All right. Thank you. I'm going to suggest we
adjourn for lunch. I gather from what Mrs. Brown said
she's getting a little tired.
MR. GRANT: Yes, I agree, she's getting tired.
THE WITNESS: I'll sleep for a while.
MR. GRANT: Can you ask when she feels would be a good time to
come back?
THE WITNESS: I don't know, we had better hurry it up, I'm
getting tired of this whole thing.
RECESSED FOR LUNCH AT 12.20 p.m.
UPON RESUMING AT 1.30 p.m.
Q Mrs. Brown, we were looking at the notes that Marvin

George and Susan Marsden prepared as a result of your
trip along the road north of Kispiox. I would ask that
Mrs. Sampson be given a copy of it. I am going to refer
to page three.
A We' re back to the same thing again?
Q We are. Could you tell me if there are -- if there is
an English meaning for the word Wilna'masxw on the left
hand side
MR. GRANT: Is that just below
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q of that little drawing?
A The red spot.
103
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
Q That is the meaning for the red spot?

Q Going over to the next page at 19.4 kilometres, Mrs.
Brown appears to have stated that she used to pick
blueberries there and is now a farm; would you ask her
please if she knows the name of that farm and the person
who lives there?
A I don't know who first lived there, and I keep
forgetting what person, people living there now.
Q It is now a farm though, is it?
A The whole area is farm. They plant oats where we used
to pick berries.
Q She stated that her grandfather burned one side of the
river and two years later he burned the other side for
berries; is there any farm on the other side of the
river where he burned?
A They are both farm lands now.
Q On both sides of the river?
A Yes.
Q Then they came to Marty Allen's Ranch and she said
George Burns used to own it and he gave it to Dorothy
and Dorothy married and now owns everything; does she
know who Dorothy is?
A Used to be Dorothy Love before.
Q Dorothy?
THE INTERPRETER: Love.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Down at the bottom of the page, Mrs. Brown is recorded
as having stated that Yagosip land is on the other side
of the river; could she explain to me who Yagosip is?
A Mary is the name of the woman who married Albert
Johnson, who is now deceased. The wife of Del is now
using the name Yagosip. The wife of Delbert Turner.
MR. GOLDIE: Wife of?
THE INTERPRETER: Delbert Turner.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Then they get as far as the point where she - - I am now
on the next page -- where she stated that across the
river is the boundary with the -- I can't quite make
that out?
THE INTERPRETER: What was your question?
MR. GOLDIE: I couldn't make out what that word is, what did
you say?
THE INTERPRETER: Katgaiden.
104
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
MR. GOLDIE: And in brackets it's followed with the words....

THE WITNESS: What is Chris Skulch name? Kwiiyeehl.
MR GOLDIE: I see Kwiiyeehl again and it's spelled with G in
the Statement of Claim.
Q That is the name of the house but is Gitkatgaiden part
of your house?
A It's a territory but they have their house,
Gitkatgaiden, but I forget who the chiefs in that house
-- names of the chiefs in that house. Their crest is
the killer whale.
Q Are they members of the House of Gitksan?
A They must all be Gitksan, that is why they live here.
Q Now, go back a page please, and if I read this
correctly, at 24.7 kilometres on the left side at the
place of Stinging Nettles she came to the boundary of
Xhliimlaxha, is that correct?
A Yes. Yagosip owns the other side.
Q IS Xhliimlaxha's territory north from there or had they
been in Xhliimlaxga's territory when they arrived at
that point?
A It's at the end, Mary lives on one side and we have no
business going across. If Mary says we cannot go across
and fish we cannot go across.
Q That's Mary Johnson?
A Mary Johnson long ago she died, not the one living now
in Kispiox.
Q Can she tell me Mary Johnson's house?
THE INTERPRETER: This Mary Johnson or the old?
MR. GOLDIE: The old one.
THE WITNESS: Wolf.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q But if the house was. . . .
A She came out of Spookx house because she's Yagosip.
THE INTERPRETER: So it is another house.
MR. GOLDIE: And the house you just referred to?
THE INTERPRETER: Spookx.
MR. GOLDIE: Turn to page six please? The second entry from
the bottom, 52.8 kilometres.
MR. GRANT: Left side.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Spookx fishing site, is that the house you have just
referred to?
A Yes.
Q Now, I want to ask you some further questions about the
territory but I prefer to do that if we could see
whatever it is that Jimmy Angus has and if there is any
105
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
possibility of getting that this afternoon I think I can

conclude my Examination.
MR. GRANT: I take that is the main area, that is the area you
have left?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes. It may lead into other things but generally
speaking it may enable me to dispose of the balance of
the questions I have which are primarily the territory.
MR. GRANT: As I indicated before we started this afternoon I
have endeavoured to locate Mr. Angus. If I can adjourn
now I will make some calls and see what I can do.
MR. GOLDIE: All right. Thank you.
SHORT RECESS
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q I have asked Mrs. Brown to have another look at Exhibit
one, which is a photograph of the houses at Kispiox, and
I would like her if she could to tell me the names of
the houses from left to right or however she wants to do
it?
MR. GRANT: Just to clarify, before she answers, are you
asking for names of the houses
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
MR. GRANT: or the names of the persons, the house
group
MR. GOLDIE: Well
MR. GRANT: -- which would be in those houses? They may be
different things, that is why I want to clarify that.
MR. GOLDIE: Let's see what Mrs. Brown says.
THE INTERPRETER: pointing to the left or to the right?
THE WITNESS: The first house is Dogoges.
MR. GOLDIE: Just pause there.
Q Is that name the name of a chief in the present action?
A You should know a little bit by now, we have been
calling Dogoges.
THE INTERPRETER: At present?
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Is that the name of a chief who is in the court action?
MR. GRANT: Do you want that clarification from counsel?
MR. GOLDIE: Sure.
MR. GRANT: Dogoges is not named in the pleadings. As a
Plaintiff.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Is Dogoges the name of a house of people?
A He has a house that is why it is present in the picture.
106
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
Q Is there chief today of that name?
A Rosie Pierre.
Q How is that spelled?
THE INTERPRETER: R-0-S-I-E. P-I-E-R-R-E.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Does that house have territory?
A Every, they own territories. Every house on here, they
all have territories where they trap.
Q Would she identify the next one please?
A This is another house of the same tribe, and then the
third one house down is Gwilaxgan. There's a crest
established in front of the building.
MR. GRANT: For the record, the first house she referred to
was on the right side of Exhibit one.
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
MR. GRANT: She's going from right to left in this
description.
MR. GOLDIE: Her answer was another house of the same tribe?
THE INTERPRETER: The first one and the second are all in
Wolf. Many houses, each chief has their own house.
What else?
MR. GOLDIE: Now, can she give me the chief's name?
THE INTERPRETER: She made a mistake. Gwilaxgan is Lax Gibuu.
Correction on the name is Chris Skulch.
THE INTERPRETER: The house she pointed out, the crest belongs
to Kwiiyeehl and that's their house. She pointed to
another totem pole and that's their totem pole.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Does she know
A There's a whole spot behind one of the totem poles and
when they were kids they used to go and run and hide in
there.
MR. GRANT: Again for the record
THE INTERPRETER: She's going ahead of everybody I think. The
next one is Xhliimlaxha's house and there's a totem pole
with a Wolf on top.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Does she know the English name or the chief who holds
the name of the house?
THE INTERPRETER: 'Wiik'aax?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
107
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
THE WITNESS: Chris Skulch.

MR. GOLDIE: Right.
MR. GRANT: That reference she was making was to the third
house to the right from Exhibit one, the totem pole
seemed to be -- it was the fourth one from the right
hand side because there is one that is dark, in the
shadows.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Now, the house next to Xhliimlaxha?
A Nuxs. The proper saying is Gutgwinuxs.
Q What is the English name of the chief who holds that
name today?
A Willy Morrison.
Q And that chief is not part of the court action, is that
correct?
MR. GRANT: The chief isn't a named chief in the court action.
MR. GOLDIE: The question was, that chief is not part of the
court action?
MR. GRANT: Just a second. I object because I don't
understand what you mean by part of the court action. I
don't think it is fair to this Witness to ask a question
which I can't even understand.
MR. GOLDIE: She may understand things that you don't. That
doesn't necessarily follow.
MR. GRANT: I object to the question as worded.
MR. GOLDIE: Willy Morrison?
THE INTERPRETER: Her answer when it was first asked, he's
always with it.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q But he is not a named Plaintiff, he is not part of the
court action at this time?
MR. GRANT: On behalf -- I would certainly make that
admission, he is not a named Plaintiff.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Does his house have a territory?
A That is their territory which I mentioned across the
river here, the mountain and, well, Stagait, just
straight across, and another spot Ansumlaan it's called.
Q Is that territory within the territory claimed in the
court action?
A It's all included, it should be all included.
MR. GRANT: For the record, when she was referring across the
river, she was pointing across the Skeena River from the
Village here.
108
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Are there any other houses that she can identify?
A Between Geel 'Niist there's another house, Txahawaltxw,
Frog Clan.
THE INTERPRETER: The name is difficult to say, she said.
MR. GOLDIE: I'll accept that.
Q What is the English name of the chief who holds the name
today?
A I forget his name.
MR. GRANT: She's referring to the sixth house from the right.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q The House of Geel is there, is it not?
A Yes.
Q And the name of the chief who holds that name is Walter
Harris, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And that house holds territory?
A Yes.
Q And that territory is included in the court action?
A Shit, I don't know.
THE INTERPRETER: That's her answer, shit, I don't know.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Geel is not a Plaintiff in the action?
A The family can't get him to speak. He's too shy. He's
not a verbal man.
Q Nobody speaks for Geel in this court action, do they?
A I'm the only one who keeps -- because I see how much
territory he has, he could easily become a millionaire
if he goes up behind the headwaters of the Skeena and he
could easily find gold and bring it out.
Q If Walter Harris doesn't speak nobody can speak for him,
is that correct?
THE INTERPRETER: I'll try and explain.

THE WITNESS: We are not like the white man's system where
white men doesn't speak and nobody else can speak. In
our system....
THE WITNESS: The other side, Geel's, like in the House of

Geel if Geel himself doesn't speak there are others in
the house that will speak for him, this is our laws.
109
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Who are the others in the House of Geel?
A There's a lot of them. Some are Clara's children....
THE INTERPRETER: Naming one, Thelma.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q She's Speaks
THE INTERPRETER: There was a younger one who she talked to
and were interested.
THE WITNESS: I was brought up by Geel --
THE INTERPRETER: Meaning herself.
THE WITNESS: I will stand behind him to support you.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Now, are there any other houses that you can identify in
that photograph?
A There's one house there, Niiyestaxhuuk, is part of
Geel' s but there was some conflict so he built his own
house and he was alone in that house. The next house is
Guluuhlametxwt, which belonging to Mary Johnson. The
reason why they called it Guluuhlametxwt, just before
chiefs come for feast to Kispiox they've already
established that house, that is why they called it
Guluuhlametxwt.
Q Thank you. Is the House of Eelast in there? In that
photograph?
A It's not in the photo but it was up in behind --
THE INTERPRETER: -- she named the House of Eelast --
THE WITNESS: -- And Yagadets, there's presently where the
houses were situated is now the spawning ground.
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q In that photograph are those facing the Skeena River?
A All the houses face the Skeena, even the houses we
mentioned, they all face towards the Skeena.
Q We spoke this morning of the telegraph, does Mrs. Brown
remember buildings that were part of the telegraph
called the Fort Stager?
THE INTERPRETER: Repeat the question?
BY MR. GOLDIE:
Q Does Mrs. Brown remember some buildings connected with
the telegraph and was part of the telegraph called Fort
Stager near Kispiox?
A I don't remember anything.
MR. GOLDIE: That was the answer?
THE INTERPRETER: She heard the question, she said I don't
remember.
110
BROWN. M.
Cross-Ex.
Mr. Goldie
Re-Exam.
Mr. Grant
MR. GOLDIE: Fine. I have no further questions with respect
to Exhibit one. I think, Mr. Grant, you wanted to say
something about the means by which I can examine on the
document that we have been talking about, if that turns
up?
MR. GRANT: Well, other than that document you have completed
your Cross-Examination:
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
MR. GRANT: I have a call in and the messages are being left
for the person who may have this document. I am at
least trying to confirm that today. But he is out of
town and the very earliest I would be able to get it
would be tonight or early in the morning if it is
readily at hand. This gives you -- I understand you may
wish to complete your Cross-Examination and if you wish
to examine on it, you would make an appointment for
Discovery
MR. GOLDIE: Yes.
MR. GRANT: Or the option is we adjourn now and
MR. GOLDIE: I would prefer to treat the Examination complete
in the sense I have spoken of and invite you to complete
your Re-Examination.
MR. GRANT: In that case, I would like, as I anticipated from
the way you talked yesterday that this would be in the
morning, so what I would like is five or ten minute
break so I can prepare that. Go off the record.
SHORT RECESS
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT
Q Mrs. Brown, I would just like to ask you a very few

questions arising out of the answers you gave Mr.
Goldie. Yesterday Mr. Goldie asked you about the land
claim with the Federal Government and one of the
questions he asked you was, what did you want from the
Federal Government. You answered, we want to be free,
we want from the government to be free is my note; can
you explain why you feel unfree?
A The Native people are not free. Whenever we want to go
anywhere white people is there and doesn't allow it.
This is why I want the Native people to be free.
Whatever they want to do they can go to a certain place,
maybe to eat. For instance, now, speaking of the Nass,
they go whenever there is season for ooligans.
Ill
BROWN. M.
Re.Exam.
Mr. Grant

THE WITNESS: Now, we are going during ooligan season to the
Nass and we can take along whatever we can trade with
them but now everything is for sale and we can't do that
any more.
MR. GRANT: If I can just go off the record for a moment,
there is someone on the phone.
OFF THE RECORD
BY MR. GRANT:
Q You have just described in general terms what you meant
when you told Mr. Goldie when you wanted the Indian to
be unfree but can you explain that in terms of
yourself? How do you feel unfree yourself?
A I don't feel right being home all the time.
THE INTERPRETER: That' s what she said.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q Mr. Goldie asked you what was the name of the fishing
site of Dogoges, where you took the trout and your
answer was, as I understand it, Naskant'imi'itxwt; did
you point out that fishing site to Marvin George when
you went upriver?
A We stopped at a place called Xsiseasatxwt and I pointed
out to him the place called Naskant' imi' itxwt to them.
Presently now by the steelhead camp there is a road for
the airport, that is the road we took and that's where
it's at.
Q Does that name mean place where the small berries or
kinnikinnick grow?
A There's a patch of berries there, what we call
t'imi'it. I don't know what white man's term for the
berries is.
Q I'd just like to refer you to Exhibit two, on page two,
the reference at 15.7 kilometres, left side, if you
could say that name and that is the place she was
referring to? That is the name that is on Exhibit two?
A Naskant'imi'itxwt.
Q That's the place?
BY MR. GRANT:
Q Mr. Goldie referred you to some of the questions I asked
and in particular I would like to clarify one point.
112
BROWN. M.
Re-Exam.
Mr. Grant
On page three of the October 30, 1985 transcript,

which is labelled Volume III, he referred to a question
at line 31 -- I will give the question to you after I
say it -- I will give it to the Interpreter?
Question: "Is Anda'ap one of those Chiefs?"
The answer was: "Guunaxst is one of those Chiefs."
Then there was an explanation -- an answer given
and your answer was that Guunaxst is a chief of the Wolf
Clan; is Guunaxst another chief's name?
A Guunaxst is chief of Frog Clan.
Q IS he in the House of Ma'us. Is he a chief in the House
of Ma'us?
A Yes, he's in the same house, the same as 'Wii 'Mugulsxw.
THE INTERPRETER: Wait a minute. I'm getting mixed up.
THE WITNESS: The same as Xhliimlaxha with 'Wii 'Mugulsxw and
Dogoges.
MR. GRANT: Which chief is she referring to?
Q What name are you referring to when you say that?
THE INTERPRETER: She just used her house as an example.
MR. GRANT: I see.
THE INTERPRETER: Matches the same as the names you mentioned.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q But Guunaxst is Frog chief?
A Yes.
Q And his relationship to Ma'us is the same as 'Wii
'Mugulsxw's relation to Xhliimlaxha, is that the answer?
A Yes.
Q I see. Mr. Goldie asked you this question, if a man
marries a Gitksan woman does he become a member of her
house. I believe your answer was yes. I want to be
more precise on that. When your husband married you did
he become a member of the House of Xhliimlaxha?
A No, he has his own chief in his own house.
Q Is that always the case with the Gitksan?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Goldie asked you some questions about who were some
chiefs and I just want to clarify one or two of those
points. He referred to 'Wii 'Mugulsxw and I believe his
question was whether George Wilson was 'Wii 'Mugulsxw;
do you know what name George Wilson held?
A I forget, it is something to do with Frog, I can't
remember it.
Q 'Wii 'Mugulsxw's is Wolf chief, is that right?
A Yes, George is chief too but I can't remember, something
with Frog.
Q So just to clarify, who is the present holder of the
113
BROWN. M.
Re-Exam.
Mr. Grant
name 'Wii 'Mugulsxw?

A Arthur Wilson.
Q Mr. Goldie asked you if people didn't talk about the
territory in the feast because it was no longer used and
you answered yes
THE INTERPRETER: That is the feast today?
MR. GRANT: I'm sorry, yes, the feast today.
Q People don't talk about the territory at the feast today
because it is no longer used, and you said yes. Why is
it no longer used today?
MR. GOLDIE: She answered the question. That was the question
that was asked of her.
MR. GRANT: I'm sorry, you asked a follow-up, you're
saying
MR. GOLDIE: You're asking the question that I asked.
MR. GRANT: Why it isn't used today?
MR. GOLDIE: Yes. I said, why is it not discussed today and
she said because the territory isn't used today.
MR. GRANT: You misunderstand my question.
Q Mr. Goldie asked you why the territory is not discussed
at the feast today and you said because it' s not used
today; why is it not used today?
A They don't seem to discuss it that much today. I'm not
really sure why not.
Q I think you may have misunderstood the question. You
have answered Mr. Goldie why it's not discussed earlier
and you said the territory is not used today; can you
tell us why the territory is not used today?
MR. GOLDIE: I thought she said she wasn't sure why.
MR. GRANT: They don't seem to discuss it that much. I'm
afraid she may have misunderstood as you misunderstood,
that's all.
THE WITNESS: Today most of our young people are all working,
not years ago. It's used yearly.
BY MR. GRANT:
Q Mr. Goldie asked you about Geel's territory, which is up
in the north near Xhliimlaxha's territory, next to
Xhliimlaxha's territory. In the course of the answers
you explained that the Stikene -- there was a murder and
the Stikene gave that territory to Geel; was there two
separate settlements with respect to Xhliimlaxha's
territory and Geel' s territory? That is to say, was
Geel' s territory given to him by the Stikene at the same
settlement feast as Xhliimlaxha's territory was given
the Stikene?
114
BROWN. M.
Re-Exam.
Mr. Grant
THE INTERPRETER: Meaning one feast?

MR. GRANT: Yes.
THE INTERPRETER: For the two?
MR. GRANT: Right.
THE WITNESS: It was two separate. When they gave territory
to Xhliimlaxha it was held at Xsa angexhlast where he
lived, we now know as Fisherman's Lodge. At the
headwaters of the Skeena when Geel went over there Geel
went with other members, one was a Wolf and two is
Frog. When they were -- when he was given the land
called xsiisxw.
THE INTERPRETER: That's clear enough?
MR. GRANT: Okay.
Q Have you ever been elected to sit on the Band Council of
the Glen Vowell Band?
A No. Too old to be elected.
Q When Mr. Goldie was referring you to the trip you took
with Marvin George and Susan Marsden up the valley, he
made some reference to different sites on Exhibit two.
He made reference -- there's a reference there to Ma'us
and also to Dogoges; is Ma'us territory different than
Dogoges's territory?
THE INTERPRETER: What was the question? Are there two
different?
BY MR. GRANT:
Q Is Ma'us territory different than Dogoges's territory?
A Yes.
Q Ma'us is Frog and Dogoges is Wolf, is that right?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Goldie asked you a number of questions about
yourself, who was the head chief of the Wolf Clan, and
you said Xhliimlaxha. Are the following chiefs chiefs
that you speak for? 'Wii 'Mugulsxw
MR. GOLDIE: Just a second, how does this arise out of my
Examination?
MR. GRANT: There was this questioning. You questioned with
respect, I believe it was where you referred to the
houses of 'Wii 'Mugulsxw, Hawaaw', Dogoges, and I just
want to ascertain the relationship of that. She's
raised on hers -- at the end of her -- when you asked
about Geel, that other people can speak for Geel.
MR. GOLDIE: I asked her who was the head chief and she told
me. I don't think this arises out of my Cross-
Examination.
MR. GRANT: You asked who was the head chief of the Wolf Clan?
MR. GOLDIE: That's right.
115
BROWN. M.
Re-Exam.
Mr. Grant
MR. GRANT: You also questioned if anyone else can speak for
Geel?
MR. GOLDIE: And she answered that.
MR. GRANT: She answered that. My question to her is, what
it means to be head chief by asking her what she's head
chief over.
MR. GOLDIE: Well, that doesn't arise out of my Cross-
Examination.
MR. GRANT: I take it you're objecting to that then?
MR. GOLDIE: I think the question exceeds the bounds of
re-exami nat i on.
THE WITNESS: I'm getting sleepy.
MR. GRANT: I have only - - I'm right near the end.
Q Mr. Goldie asked you who sits beside you at the feast.
You indicated that 'Wii 'Mugulsxw and 'Wii Eelast. He
also asked you if 'Wii Eelast had his own house. Can
Xhliimlaxha speak for 'Wii Eelast?
MR. GOLDIE: Well, this whole question of one person speaking
for another is appropriate for Evidence in Chief but I
didn't ask if she spoke for anybody.
MR. GRANT: But the whole question you raised the whole issue
with respect to Geel that no one could speak 'for him an
she said that she could.
MR. GOLDIE: If you want to go into this I'm going to have
some questions to her because I did not ask any
questions about who she could speak for. I asked her
about Geel and that's the only person I asked her about
MR. GRANT: Okay.
Q You referred to Exhibit one and one of the places you
stated is that where the houses are situated now is the
spawning grounds; are you referring to the hatchery that
is located in Kispiox?
THE INTERPRETER: She nodded for yes.
MR. GRANT: I would just like to take a moment to think about
the position of Mr. Goldie on that one point. So go of
the record.
SHORT RECESS
MR. GRANT: Go back on the record.

I have no further questions for you, Mrs. Brown an
your Commission Evidence is finished.
MR. GOLDIE: Thank you very much, Mrs. Brown, you have been
very-helpful and very patient.
MR. GRANT: Thank you. You can have a few days rest now.
PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED AT 3.40 p.m. 23 JANUARY, 1986.
116
BROWN. M.
Re-Exam.
Mr. Grant
I hereby certify the foregoing 24

pages to be a true and accurate
transcript of the proceedings
herein to the best of my skill and
ability.
Veronica Harper (Ms .)
Official Court Reporter
VH/lre-Feb. 2/86 B.C.S.R.A. #263

Delgamuukw 1986 01 26 Commission Evidence Martha Brown PDF

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INDEX OF EXHIBITS REFERENCED TO IN COMMISSION EVIDENCE

Martha Brown - Exhibit 68

Volume 4 - Exhibit 68D

2. Photocopy of seven handwritten pages entitled 68 E

3A. Photocopy of map from the National Archives 68 F

3B. Photocopy of map from the National Archives 68 G

3C. Photocopy of map from the National Archives 68 H

5. Undated coloured map of Gitksan - Wet'suwet'en 68 J

UPON COMMENCING AT 1.00 p.m. ., 22 JANUARY, 1986

OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION

THE WITNESS: It's been a while since we wanted it to happen.

- constituting that claim be produced:

its production after I see it.

THE INTERPRETER: Yes.

A It's Indian law to invite their friends whenever they

used by the people of Glen Vowell?

A I saw the old man you mentioned. He froze during the

the old man froze.

OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN

THE INTERPRETER: My father's brother. Pardon me. Good thing

MR. GRANT: Before they're marked, I would like to clarify

EXHIBIT NO. 3B Photocopy of map from the National

EXHIBIT NO. 3C Photocopy of map from the National

log house, the white people took it now. There's a

THE INTERPRETER: You are now an elder? Over 65?

please say so?

Q What is the Indian -- English name of Guunaxst?

Q Up the Kispiox River?

THE WITNESS: She's very active in speaking and it's written

knew the number of people who are members of Xhliimlaxha

EXHIBIT NO. 4 - Obituary column from the Interior

A We used to take it to the Hudson's Bay and it was

years in a row by Philip Wilson.

Mrs. Brown: "That is the name of the creek,

OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION

THE INTERPRETER: She remembers a place called Tsihl'niit'in,

THE INTERPRETER: He was a nice man, was willing to assist

THE INTERPRETER: The names she mentioned, those were the

PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4.03 p.m. 23 JANUARY, 1986.

I hereby certify the foregoing to

Veronica Harper (Ms)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDIE (CONTINUED)

Q Mrs. Brown, do you recall Mr. Grant suggesting to you

EXHIBIT NO. 5 - Document showing map of area, with

THE WITNESS: Coming towards us as -- is where Miinhl laxmihl

THE WITNESS: They try to claim the whole area.

the crest is the same with 'Wiik'aax.

were between the ages of 12 and 19 you went to the

OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN

THE WITNESS: They had a place where they lived called

Q Good. On page one, at 10 kilometres, you identified a

THE WITNESS: They're all at the same place.

take it away from you" .

RECESSED FOR LUNCH AT 12.20 p.m.

UPON RESUMING AT 1.30 p.m.

OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDIE (CONTINUED)

Q Mrs. Brown, we were looking at the notes that Marvin

Q That is the meaning for the red spot?

MR. GOLDIE: And in brackets it's followed with the words....

possibility of getting that this afternoon I think I can

THE WITNESS: Chris Skulch.

THE INTERPRETER: I'll try and explain.