Dharma Wheel

FAQ Chat Center

Budd… ‹ Bud… ‹ Bod… ‹ Tibet…

Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Forum rules

Post Reply Search this topic…

22 posts 1 2

DGA
Former staff member

Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:01 am

I know much of this history is shrouded in mystery, and may be laden with sectarian commitments, but I'm
putting the question forward anyway with the hope that everyone may benefit from it.

What do we know of the historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra before, say, the time of Milarepa?
I've heard conflicting claims on Milarepa specifically--that he was simultaneously a Mahamudra
practitioner and a Dzogchenpa, or that he practiced Mahamudra but that Mahamudra itself has its origins
in Dzogchen Semde, or that the Milarepa's realization of Mahamudra simply makes sense to Dzogchenpas
while having nothing concrete to do with Dzogchen as such. (These are not authoritative positions, merely
things I've heard in conversation over the years.)

I assume Milarepa is a significant figure in his own right, of course, but also that these conflicting claims
are representative of broader claims and convictions on the historical relation of Mahamudra and
Dzogchen.

DharmaWheel, please help me make sense of this. Thank you.

Read the full text of DGA's dissertation, a cultural history of mindfulness, here

bryandavis

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:16 am

We know Milarepa had many Dzogchen masters before following Lord Marpa, so of course he had
exposure to Dzogchen teachings.

I have never heard any Kagyu Lama mention Milarepa practicing Dzogchen for his realizations.

I have hear as many of us hear have that Chogyal Namkahi Norbu points to MIlarepa famous hand near the
hear pose as showing he was practicing Dzogchen Longde.

Personally I think Chogyal Namkhai Norbu's explanation of that famous pose makes the most sense out of
anything I have heard.
Regardless everyone agrees ( at least that I have talked to ) that Mila took his practice to the final summit
and achieved Buddhahood in his life.

tingdzin

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:57 am

With all due respect to Professor Norbu, the hand-to-the-ear gesture is probably not an indication of
longde practice, at least not exclusively. The photo that is in his book really doesn't look like Mila's gesture
in the first place. Further, the Tibetologist R.A. Stein pointed out long ago that the gesture was typical not
only of Milarepa, but also of other poet-saints (mostly Kagyu) who have no historical connection to longde,
but who also sang inspired songs (mgur) -- and also of the bards who used to sing the Gesar Epic in
traditional Tibet. If you can find his book on Gesar, there are some illustrations. In his "Tibetan
Civilization"he characterizes the gesture as one of receiving inspiration from the gods or the Tibetan
equivalent of the muses.

dzoki

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:39 pm

tingdzin wrote:
With all due respect to Professor Norbu, the hand-to-the-ear gesture is probably not an indication of longde
practice, at least not exclusively. The photo that is in his book really doesn't look like Mila's gesture in the
first place. Further, the Tibetologist R.A. Stein pointed out long ago that the gesture was typical not only of
Milarepa, but also of other poet-saints (mostly Kagyu) who have no historical connection to longde, but who
also sang inspired songs (mgur) -- and also of the bards who used to sing the Gesar Epic in traditional Tibet.
If you can find his book on Gesar, there are some illustrations. In his "Tibetan Civilization"he characterizes
the gesture as one of receiving inspiration from the gods or the Tibetan equivalent of the muses.

Well, that is because the imagery of other such masters was based on the one of Milarepa, to signify that
they are like Milarepa. Of course they might not have practiced longde.

Malcolm

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:10 pm

Jikan wrote:
I know much of this history is shrouded in mystery, and may be laden with sectarian commitments, but I'm
putting the question forward anyway with the hope that everyone may benefit from it.

What do we know of the historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra before, say, the time of Milarepa?
I've heard conflicting claims on Milarepa specifically--that he was simultaneously a Mahamudra practitioner
and a Dzogchenpa, or that he practiced Mahamudra but that Mahamudra itself has its origins in Dzogchen
Semde, or that the Milarepa's realization of Mahamudra simply makes sense to Dzogchenpas while having
 nothing concrete to do with Dzogchen as such. (These are not authoritative positions, merely things I've
heard in conversation over the years.)

I assume Milarepa is a significant figure in his own right, of course, but also that these conflicting claims are
representative of broader claims and convictions on the historical relation of Mahamudra and Dzogchen.

DharmaWheel, please help me make sense of this. Thank you.

Milarepa says in one of his songs that he was stabbed in the chest by Mahāmudra, and stabbed in the back
by Dzogchen.

I am of the personal opinion that Kagyu Mahāmudra as we know it today is largely the creation of
Gampopa (following the opinion of the famed 13th century Drugpa Kagyu master, Yang gong pa).

As far as Longde goes, well, Dzeng Dharmabodhi lived in Lhodrak and had close connections with Kagyus
living in that region. In terms of the famous posture of Milarepa, it could either be a Longde posture or the
position used in the practice called "vajra waves."

tingdzin

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:33 pm

Well, Dzoki and Malcolm, what about the Gesar bards, then? Were they also all Dzogchenpas?

Malcolm

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:56 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Well, Dzoki and Malcolm, what about the Gesar bards, then? Were they also all Dzogchenpas?

Did they have Gesar bards in the 12th century?

Now that you mention it, Dzogchen is pretty wrapped up in the Gesar tradition too...

Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Berry

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Milarepa says in one of his songs that he was stabbed in the chest by Mahāmudra, and stabbed in the back
by Dzogchen
There's something about Milarepa & Dzogchen here ( following after after his sorcery episode with Yönten
Gyatso):

Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche tells us that Milarepa then went to the western part of Tsang and studied with
the great Nyingma Lama, Rongtön Lhaga. He gave Milarepa the Dzogchen meditation instructions and told
him that if one practiced them in the morning, one would achieve enlightenment in the morning, and if one
practiced them in the evening, one would achieve enlightenment that same evening. Lama Rongtön also said
that fortunate beings would achieve the goal without needing to practice at all.

Since he had spiritual pride by thinking that he was very fortunate and remembering that he had learned
sorcery in twelve days, Milarepa was very happy and slept for seven days. When Lama Rongtön dropped by to
check whether he had achieved any signs of accomplishment, Milarepa responded, “No signs.” The master
realized how strong Milarepa’s negative karma was, that the Dzogchen teachings would not do to purify him,
and therefore he told Milarepa that he should seek instructions from Marpa Lotsawa.

When Milarepa heard the name Marpa, deep faith and sincere devotion arose within him and he immediately
set out to find him. Milarepa was now 38 years old.

http://leksheyling.net/pages/english/Li ... do-rje.htm

Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave
them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa

dzogchungpa

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Now that you mention it, Dzogchen is pretty wrapped up in the Gesar tradition too...

There's some interesting material about the Dzogchen-Gesar connection here:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/152514368/In ... am-Trungpa

There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

bryandavis

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:52 am

Malcom Said:

it could either be a Longde posture or the position used in the practice called "vajra waves."

With out getting into detail obviously, which system is that connected with?
Thanks

bryan.

tingdzin

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:37 pm

Thank you, Dzogchungpa; I've read the article. By the way, it calls to mind a difference in point of view
between CNNR and Trungpa Rinpoche: The former insisted that sgra bla was the proper Tibetan spelling of
"drala", and ties it in with the principle of sound (in "Drung, De'u and Bon"). CTR, after Mipham, says it's
dgra bla, meaning "above the enemy".

Most Bonpo books agree with CNNR, while in most Buddhist sources, its spelled a third way: dgra lha.

Anyway, if you want to believe that most Gesar bards were Dzogchenpas, feel free. I just introduced the
idea so that people could know there is more than one school of thought about the hand-to-the-ear
gesture.

Malcolm

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Tue Jun 09, 2015 6:39 pm

tingdzin wrote:
Thank you, Dzogchungpa; I've read the article. By the way, it calls to mind a difference in point of view
between CNNR and Trungpa Rinpoche: The former insisted that sgra bla was the proper Tibetan spelling of
"drala", and ties it in with the principle of sound (in "Drung, De'u and Bon"). CTR, after Mipham, says it's dgra
bla, meaning "above the enemy".

Most Bonpo books agree with CNNR, while in most Buddhist sources, its spelled a third way: dgra lha.

Anyway, if you want to believe that most Gesar bards were Dzogchenpas, feel free. I just introduced the idea
so that people could know there is more than one school of thought about the hand-to-the-ear gesture.

I don't necessarily believe that -- I just don't believe that Mila's posture lacks yogic significance, whether it
is klong sde or vajra waves.

Crazywisdom

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:48 pm

VJra waves are in Hevajra which was what these dudes mostly did.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

smcj

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:54 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
VJra waves are in Hevajra which was what these dudes mostly did.

Vajra waves? What's that?

https://soundcloud.com/user-730689343/chenrezig-puja
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

sherabpa

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:53 am

Malcolm wrote:
I am of the personal opinion that Kagyu Mahāmudra as we know it today is largely the creation of Gampopa
(following the opinion of the famed 13th century Drugpa Kagyu master, Yang gong pa).

It would be more correct to describe it as systematization than creation, i.e. he didn't just make it up:
mahamudra is based on the sutras and tantras like everything else. And like everything else, it has some
controversial aspects to it. People make a lot of fuss over them, but I can't see why. Sapan said much more
devastating things about Gampopa's Dorje Phakmo tradition but when do you hear about that?

Malcolm

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:08 pm

sherabpa wrote:

Malcolm wrote:
I am of the personal opinion that Kagyu Mahāmudra as we know it today is largely the creation of
Gampopa (following the opinion of the famed 13th century Drugpa Kagyu master, Yang gong pa).

It would be more correct to describe it as systematization than creation, i.e. he didn't just make it up:
mahamudra is based on the sutras and tantras like everything else. And like everything else, it has some
controversial aspects to it. People make a lot of fuss over them, but I can't see why. Sapan said much more
devastating things about Gampopa's Dorje Phakmo tradition but when do you hear about that?
His four yogas of Mahāmudra is completely his own innovation, according Yangongpa.

As far as the Vārāhī blessings in Kagyu, Sakyapas talk about it a lot. Kagyus, not so much since it is their
system. The Kagyu defense is that the Vārāhī blessing is for those of sharper faculties. The Sakyapas don't
buy this reasoning. Personally, I am neutral.

conebeckham

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Wed Jun 10, 2015 7:11 pm

According to Brunnholzl, Atisha's "Pith Instructions on the Two Armors of the Connate Mahamudra"
teaches the Four Yogas. He also comments that masters have asserted that the "Four Yogas" are found, in
a somewhat concealed manner, in the Lankavatara Sutra--Go Lotsawa comments on this in some detail in
his commentary on the Uttaratantrashastra.

དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
rtོག་གེའི་yuལ་མིན་bl་མའི་byིན་rlབས་དང་།
skལ་ldན་ལས་འrོ་ཅན་gyིས་rtོགས་པ་stེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལ>་rt?ག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Crazywisdom

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:

sherabpa wrote:

Malcolm wrote:
I am of the personal opinion that Kagyu Mahāmudra as we know it today is largely the creation of
Gampopa (following the opinion of the famed 13th century Drugpa Kagyu master, Yang gong pa).

It would be more correct to describe it as systematization than creation, i.e. he didn't just make it up:
mahamudra is based on the sutras and tantras like everything else. And like everything else, it has some
controversial aspects to it. People make a lot of fuss over them, but I can't see why. Sapan said much
more devastating things about Gampopa's Dorje Phakmo tradition but when do you hear about that?

His four yogas of Mahāmudra is completely his own innovation, according Yangongpa.

As far as the Vārāhī blessings in Kagyu, Sakyapas talk about it a lot. Kagyus, not so much since it is their
system. The Kagyu defense is that the Vārāhī blessing is for those of sharper faculties. The Sakyapas don't
buy this reasoning. Personally, I am neutral.

It's real. Given to those w extraordinary devotion

Last edited by Crazywisdom on Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

Crazywisdom

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:41 pm

smcj wrote:

Crazywisdom wrote:
VJra waves are in Hevajra which was what these dudes mostly did.

Vajra waves? What's that?

It's a yoga deal

Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

dzogchungpa

Re: Historical relation of Dzogchen and Mahamudra

Wed Jun 10, 2015 10:47 pm

smcj wrote:

Crazywisdom wrote:
VJra waves are in Hevajra which was what these dudes mostly did.

Vajra waves? What's that?

rdo rje rba rlabs

There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Post Reply

22 posts 1 2

Jump to

WHO IS ONLINE
Users browsing this forum: heart, Markus and 91 guests

Buddhism Forum ‹ Buddhism Discuss…

Dharma Wheel is associated with Dhamma Wheel, Dharma Paths, Dharma Wheel Engaged, Dhamma Wiki, and The Dhamma.