Me: So, my project is an exploration into career fields because I know that I want to major in

chemistry -and I am majoring in chemistry- but once I get my degree, I don’t really know what I
want to do. So- and I took a forensics class my junior year of high school, and I really enjoyed it-
so, I guess, I would love to learn more about the world of forensics from you. So-

H: Ok.

Me: -if you could start maybe telling me a little bit about what you’ve done. I know you worked
for the FBI for a little bit and for the Northern Illinois Police something…

H: Right, Police Crime Lab. Yep. So, well, in the way back time machine, when I was finishing
graduate school, so I went to, I got my undergrad in chemistry and then went on to Northwestern
for graduate school in chemistry, got my PhD there. And I was, you know, kind of having a
similar conversation with my advisor, and he said well, you know, ok do you want to go work
for a pharmaceutical company? Do you want to teach? You know, all the traditional things. And
I said no. I said I want to go into forensic science. And he did his best to kind of talk me out of it-
because at that time- he said no, no, my students don’t do that, you know, they, you know, I have
other career plans for you. I said no, I really want to do this. I said I think there are lots of
opportunities for people with science backgrounds, especially advanced degree. And, he was
like, well, that’s because people with advanced degrees don’t go into that field. And I said
exactly! I said, but the field actually needs it. Because at that time, you know, a lot of, many of
the disciplines within forensic science were actually filled by police officers with kind of a bunch
of specialized training, so it really was at its core a scientific field, but it was not yet, like, career
fields were not allowing science [inaudible]. So, [inaudible] was really good in that I was one of
the few, kind of, PhD scientists that went into forensics back then and so, that opened up a lot of
opportunities for me, as the discipline starts, you start to realize the need for science in the field.
And so, I actually became the first, youngest female crime lab director in the country.

Me: That’s incredible!

H: I know right! So, one thing I would always, you know, kind of encourage people to do is-
even if- if you think it’s a good fit and you have passion about a career, that will go a long way.
So, I definitely, I used to, you know, read Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys mysteries when I was
young and I was addicted to a show that was on that was called Quincy, but he was a medical
examiner but he and his lab technician, Sam, would go out to the crime scenes and it was kind of
the precursor to CSI, what you guys have today.

Me: Yeah.

H: But I was like, I want to do this work. I said I don’t know how to get into the field, I don’t,
you know, it wasn’t a typical pathway, but I was just, kind of like you- I really had an interest in
that. So, I just kept looking online to say, you know, in journals where are jobs advertised? How
do I get into this field? And even, like, for an interview, they said well, you’re really
overqualified, why should we hire you? You know? And I think I convinced them that I, I said, I
don’t care, I said, I think I could bring a lot to the field, I said, but and I don’t care starting at a
salary that isn’t comparable to what I could make as a PhD chemist. So, they [inaudible], you
know, and said ok we’ll hire you, but you’re overqualified. [inaudible], because I don’t know
forensic science, I said, you know, I’ll be a quick learner, but I don’t know it. But, it really, it’s a,
I love the field, and I love the way it combines science and it’s kind of a little bit of, you’re
solving new mysteries with every case.

Me: Yeah?

H: And I think the other part of it that always appealed to me was, it was so tangible to see the
connection with how you’re making a difference.

Me: Yeah.

H: So, in, I just really, I could go into research and be in the chemistry lab, and, you know, it
wasn’t, it always seemed like five steps removed from the people you’re actually helping. For,
with forensics, I loved, like, from crime scenes to the work in the lab and then going to court and
testifying- I liked that whole, kind of, different dimensions of the same job.

Me: Yeah.

H: I really found that appealing.

Me: Yeah, the, when in my class, when we talked about testifying, we had one unit on how the
law worked, sort of, and it was only the first unit, but it was almost the most interesting unit to
me.

H: Yeah, I find that the whole court system, and your role in that as a forensic scientist, I just
really enjoy that. And, you know, I think if you end up going into forensic science, you know, as
a hard science degreed person, I think there are so many opportunities for you.

Me: Yeah.

H: You know, whether, and the other good thing about it as a career is pretty much anywhere in
the country that you want to live, there will be a crime lab nearby. So, you know, it’s kind of
like, if I want to work for a police department I can pretty much work anywhere I want to work.

Me: Yeah.

H: So, it has that benefit as well.

Me: So, you first worked for a crime lab and then went to work in government, and like you
were saying- pardon?

H: Yeah, so I worked, first of all, for the Northern Illinois Police Crime Laboratory and then I
was a forensic scientist, then I actually did, they had some management changes in the lab that I
wasn’t really pleased with, they put in some leadership of the lab that weren’t scientists. I really,
it just, I didn’t like the direction they wanted to take things, so I actually went in private industry
for about 6 months. And then at that time, I got a phone call and they said, you know, we’d really
like to have you come in and talk to us about why you left the lab, and so I, you know, it was
with some of the police chiefs, and so I did do that, and by the end of that they said, well would
you consider applying for the director position of the lab, if we open it back up?

Me: Wow.

H: So that’s actually – I know right?- so that’s actually how I ended up interviewing and being
selected as the crime lab director.

Me: That’s so cool.

H: And then I worked there for 7 years. And then, I thought, well I could stay being a big fish in
a little pond, or, I had seen an advertisement for a position in the FBI lab, I could go be a little
fish in a big pond and I thought, I think I’m going to do that. So, that’s, and then I made the
transition to the FBI lab, and I moved up fairly rapidly there too from a, I went in as a [inaudible]
and within two years was promoted to a senior executive.

Me: Wow. That’s awesome.

H: So, yeah it was awesome, and you know, a lot of this was really because of the timing of the,
there really weren’t a lot of true, you know, degreed scientists, especially advanced degreed
scientists in the discipline.

Me: Yeah. Which-

H: So- Go ahead.

Me: I was just going to ask, since you worked in so many different types of laboratories what
were the differences, kind of, between them and maybe which was your favorite, if you could
pick one?

H: Oh, that is a fabulous question, Tilly. I loved the Northern Illinois Police Crime Lab, because
you got to, it was small enough, that you got to do everything. So, you got to work the crime
scene, you got to work the cases once they came into the lab, and you know, so you kind of from
tooth to tail had that whole experience. When I got to the FBI, very rarely would you ever, ever,
go out to the crime lab, because they had whole units that actually went out to crime labs that
were totally separate from the lab.

Me: Ok.

H: So, I did, the only crime scene I ever worked when I was at the FBI labs was actually after
9/11. I got to help out at the pentagon.

Me: Woah.
H: But that was the only scene work I got to do after I left Northern Illinois Police Crime Lab.
So, they both have their advantages. But I have to say starting out in my career, I was so
thankful, and I think I had a totally different perspective than people who joined the FBI and
only worked in the lab, I had, just, such a completely different perspective, and a set of tools in
my, you know, repertoire that a lot of other people didn’t have. So, I’m really glad for that
experience and I would definitely encourage anybody who was just starting out to try to get an
experience that gave them every aspect of the job. And then, you know, as you progress in your
career, you know, likely you’ll, you know, at some point move into management and then that
experience will help you likely you won’t be doing that type of, you know, kind of, crimes to the
courtroom- you probably won’t be doing that anymore. But I wouldn’t have given up the crime
scene stuff for anything, because that really, it’s kind of one of the things that intrigued me the
most going into forensic science, was that ability to go to the crime scene and discover the clues
and preserve the evidence that was going to later be helpful.

Me: Yeah.

H: So, I think it’s not which did I like better, because I enjoyed all of it, but I think it was about
marrying up the type of expertise with where I was in my development that I think was really
important.

Me: Ok. That’s really interesting to hear that those, the differences, because of working in the
crime lab, it was smaller, so you got to do everything.

H: Yep, and I think that’s very, I think you would find that to be a common kind of model, with
smaller labs, that you get to, you get a lot more hands on in a lot of the different areas. And, at a
smaller lab, I actually started out in chemistry, but I crossed trained in questioned documents and
fingerprints. So, I actually was a multi-court expert in those other two disciplines which I never
would have gotten to do in larger labs.

Me: So, I guess that sort of leads into another one of the questions that I have which is: what
aspects of your job did you learn hands on, rather than from your classes?

H: Yeah, so definitely, remember which discipline you end up going into, if you end up going
into forensic toxicology, you’ll use a lot more of your degree, but you’ll still have an
apprenticeship-type training before you actually start case work. So, you’ll still get to have an
apprenticeship-type training where you learn under one or more qualified toxicologists, or, you
know, whatever field you go into.

Me: Ok.

H: But I have to say, I really enjoyed fingerprints, especially because at that time they were just
starting to develop new chemical methods with developing fingerprints, so I did a lot in that area,
plus the automated fingerprint identification system was just coming on board. And I kind of was
on the front end of that as well, so, that was an exciting field. And, I have to say, case work wise,
its, to me, was the most exciting because it truly was like trying to, you know, find and put the
puzzle pieces together and when you’ve made the identification, it just was like, oh!, this is that
person and nobody else. It was just a cool feeling.

Me: Yeah, it definitely is. We had in my class junior year, we had a whole project on
fingerprinting, and we had to collect fingerprints using ink, iodine, cyanoacrylate glue, and I
think there was one other type-

H: It was probably ninhydrin.

Me: Yes! Yeah, that one.

H: Yup, common, yup. Awesome!

Me: It was, yeah that project was insane.

H: Yeah. That’s very cool. Did you get to do some comparisons, too, of known to questioned, to
actually see whose fingerprint it was, did they have some of that work as well?

Me: Yes. I think we had a lab on that also, which was, it was hard because there are so many of
the little details, and…

H: Yup, yup, yeah. Yeah, so you definitely have to like detailed work.

Me: Yeah! May I ask, what barriers did you find that you were facing because you were a
woman in this field?

H: My guess is, so it was probably very different back then, but there’s probably still some of it
that exists today. But, I will, probably when I was, when I first became the lab director,
remember I was in my early twenties, and we were working a crime scene and our firearms
examiner was kind of a mentor to me as far as how I learned to work crime scenes, and he was
probably in his sixties, right, and well respected by everybody.

M: Okay.

H: So, we’re working the crime scene and the police, another police department, kind of, their
higher ups arrived, and I went out to brief them, and the Sergeant basically said, and I’ll never
forget the words he used, “hey little lady, why don’t you just step aside and send out whoever’s
in charge of this crime scene.” Hah! And I’m like, oh here we go! So, you know, and fortunately,
you know, not that I wouldn’t have handled it, but at that time the firearms examiner, Bob
Wilson, kind of stepped up from behind me and said, “Sergeant, you may want to take that back.
This is our lab director and she is in charge here.” So, he was like, he took the protector role, like
a father role, which was, so the dynamics were really interesting, right?

M: Yeah, wow!
H: You had the old schoolers know when a woman couldn’t possibly know anything and
certainly not be in charge and then you had the dynamics of ‘I will protect this young woman’
kind of role. So, you know, there was definitely a fair amount of that no matter where I went, and
I think the only thing that really got me through that was actually having a PhD. And people
would say “oh, well, ok,” you know? So I think that was really essential to contradict that, you
know, bias and cultural changes that were happening from it used to be strictly police officers
who did this work, to scientists and, oh my gosh god forbid, a woman because you know, even
back then there were very few women at the police department.

M: Yeah.

H: So a lot of that cultural change, I think has happened, but my guess is there’s still [inaudible]
of kind of the, especially when you’re in that discipline of criminal justice/police environment,
kind of the old boy work that I think you might still encounter but, probably maybe once or so in
your career would you have something that really struck you as old-old school.

M: Okay. Yeah, it’s interesting-

H: So, I think those barriers are really all but gone. I hope they are anyway.

M: Yeah, me too! We’re around the twenty minute mark, and I told you that this would be a
fifteen to twenty interview, so if you have to go that’s fine, but I do have one or two more
questions if you’re able to answer them.

H: Yeah absolutely.

M: Ok, for skill sets, what are some skills that everyone in the field, sort of had, and what are
some skills that maybe you wish more people had coming into forensics?

H: Alright so, I think, everyone kind of has, at least everyone that I’ve encountered, even, and
I’m going to kind of not go to the way-back time machine, but I’m going to do once I, kind of,
was at the FBI and like I was, I helped establish the Forensic Science Program at West Virginia
University, you know, and kind of kept in touch with some of the universities where the students
were. One thing I will say, from a student’s standpoint, they all said, they were all like just so
fascinated by forensics, they wanted to do that career. They just, they really liked the whole
concept of it and the application of their skills to this discipline so that, to a person, like, I
encountered other people like when I was in grad school that were like, ‘oh maybe I’ll go do this
or go do that… you know maybe I’ll teach…’ but anybody who I met in any of these programs,
they were driven. They were like ‘this is my passion, I just really don’t consider any other career
fields, this is what I want to do.’ So, I think that, and even when you’re in a lab, you’ll get to
work with, and I find this to be fairly unique, you get to work with people who are really happy
in their jobs. And, I’ve been in some other jobs, especially now I’m in Federal Government
working in the Intelligence Community, and that is not the case, that is not universal, like it was
in the crime lab. Even when I would go to different conferences and interact with other people,
you really did not hear people complain about their job. So, I think that’s one aspect that I found
to be pretty unique, people loved the work they did. So, skill wise, I think everyone kind of had a
natural curiosity, and they I think, almost everyone in the field has some type of forensic science
or hard science degree. I just don’t see anybody that’s coming into this field, nor do I think you
could probably get into the field without that today. So, I think you’re seeing everybody come in
with some actual degree that’s scientific based.

M: That’s good though.

H: Oh, it’s absolutely fabulous for the field! That’s where I had hoped it would go, right? So,
that’s fabulous. And I think the quality of the work and the innovations that are coming out of
forensics now, how we can use DNA in other unique ways, to be really exciting. So, I think the
field has really benefitted from the science base that’s there. And I think for the most part, people
still have that passion about the field. So, I mean, I think skill wise: attention to detail and, I
think also, to be a good communicator, so that when you do testify you can clearly communicate
your findings in a way that’s credible to a jury. I think that’s a skill I would say I wish more
people had. I’ve definitely encountered people who really struggled with that side of, we would
do court training and everything, and there were people who were not natural at that and they
sometimes did a disservice to their actual findings.

M: Oh no.

H: So, yeah, so that would be, so if you have a chance to take like public speaking courses, or
things like elective, that would be something I would definitely say pursue, or join like a rotary
club or something that will help you do the public speaking- you know that skill that I think is
kind of overlooked. It’s beneficial no matter what, but certainly for court testimony. And, also a
lot of forensic scientists end up doing training from other people, like I did a lot of, I started a lot
of different training programs. So, you can look for that as well.

Me: That’s awesome. That’s really cool. I think you have pretty much covered everything that I
wanted to ask. So, thank-

H: So, I have a quick question for you if you have time, so I’m curious what other analogous
fields you’re considering, you’re including in this project, that you’re also exploring?

M: I am looking into Pharmacology, a normal Chemist- I don’t really know what sub-discipline
of chemistry I’d be most interested in yet- and then I’m also looking at Chemical Engineering
but I think with Chemical Engineering I would have to change my major and do some other
things, so for the most part I’m between Pharmacology and Forensic Toxicology at the moment.

H: Ok! Alright! Well, if you do decide to go deeper into Forensic Toxicology, I could probably
find a couple Forensic Toxicologists, if you want, in the actual line of business for you to chat
with as well at some point.

Me: Oh, that would… I will definitely keep you in mind because I’m guessing at some point, I
will need to look into that a little more.

H: Yeah, yeah. Ok!

Me: Thank you so much for all the great information you’ve given me!

H: Good, well I hope it’s helpful and, you know, good luck in your career paths. I’m sure just
based on, you know, how, you know, you look like you take a lot of incentive on yourself, to do
some things, especially I was very excited when I saw that you formed a Euchre Club! I’m like,
oh my, my favorite card game ever and no one out here on the East Coast knows it! I’m like,
come on! So, yeah, if you have follow-up questions or anything or you want to clarify, don’t
hesitate to reach out to me.

Me: Ok, well thank you so much for taking this time out of your day to talk with me!

H: Alright, you’re welcome.