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Pressure effect on displacement #27363 05/11/09 11:37 PM
Grant Go
Member Dear all, Advanced

Registered: Who's Online
06/08/08 In CII calculation (B31.3), I found the displacement of spring supports
Posts: 14 slightly changes as the design pressure changes. In my humble 1 registered
Loc: Korea, knowledge, I just presume this is because of the pressure stiffening (Mrragpicker), 8
Republic of effect as described in Appendix C.(7) of B31.3. But I am not quite sure. Guests and 3 Spiders
online.
Does anybody can kindly explain this to me? Key: Admin, Global Mod,
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Re: Pressure effect on displacement [Re: Grant] #27369 05/12/09 05:50 AM Su M Tu W Th F Sa
CraigB 1 2
Member You are probably seeing the results of either the pressure stiffening 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

effect or the Bernoulli forces on the elbows causing them to open up.
Registered: 10 11 12 13 14 15 16
05/16/06 _________________________
Posts: 378 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
CraigB
Loc: Denver, CO 24 25 26 27 28 29 30

31
Forum Stats
Re: Pressure effect on displacement [Re: CraigB] #27372 05/12/09 06:06 AM
11620 Members
MoverZ 14 Forums
Member Also, just like a long balloon, a pipe will extend axially (and radially)
15757 Topics

with increasing pressure, usually called pressure elongation. Generally 70770 Posts
Registered:
11/22/06 axial elongation is a much more prominent effect than opening up of

Posts: 1195 elbows, which is usually called the Bourdon effect. Max Online: 126 @
Loc: Hants, UK 05/09/18 04:29 PM
Craig, are you sure about Bernoulli forces on elbows ??

Re: Pressure effect on displacement [Re: MoverZ] #27373 05/12/09 06:07 AM
CraigB
Member Yeah, you're right Bourdon forces. Duh!

Registered: _________________________
05/16/06 CraigB
Posts: 378
Loc: Denver, CO
Re: Pressure effect on displacement [Re: CraigB] #27405 05/12/09 11:01 PM
Grant
Member Thank you, CraigB and MoverZ. I should have searched the CII manual

more.
Registered:
06/08/08
Posts: 14 Then is this right if I turn off this option(bourdon effect) there shouldn't
Loc: Korea, be any elongation of pipe (no FRP) due to pressure effect in CII?
Republic of
Re: Pressure effect on displacement [Re: Grant] #27410 05/13/09 02:20 AM
http://forums.coade.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showﬂat&Number=27461&Searchpage=13&Main=5895&Words=constant&Search=true#Post27461 1/6
MoverZ
Not sure what you mean by 'no FRP'. Under 'Activate Bourdon Effects'
Member
you have the translation and rotation choices. I would recommend
Registered: always apply translations since this is a real effect, particularly noticable
11/22/06 in large D/t ratio piping. Rotation occurs in elbows which are not truly

Posts: 1195 circular cross section. So if you have forged elbows, no rotation. If you
Loc: Hants, UK
have pulled bends, include the option.

shr
Member I think Grant is not using FRP ( Since for FRP bourdon effect is included

irrespective of Caesar setting, that elongation value is reasonably high)&
Registered:
02/16/07 want to check spring movement due to pressure variation by switching
Posts: 508 off Bourdon effect.
Loc: Singapore
In my openion spring movement will be constant irrespective of
pressure variation when Bourdon effect & pressure elongation on bend
both are switched off.

Re: Pressure effect on displacement [Re: shr] #27413 05/13/09 03:06 AM
MoverZ
Member SHR, I don't agree with your second para. Spring movement is typically

a function of thermal expansion. Pressure elongation is exactly the same
Registered:
11/22/06 in effect and is frequently expressed as an equivalent thermal. In fact

Posts: 1195 that was essential in the old days of ADLPIPE etc., software that did not
Loc: Hants, UK include pressure end effects.

Similarly, the shape a complex 3D pipe system may adopt when
supported on springs could be affected by elbow deformation due to
pressure (Bourdon effect). Consequently spring position would be
affected.

shr
Member Hi MoverZ

Registered:
02/16/07 pressure elongation on bend can change flexibility of bend as per
Posts: 508 appendix D B31.3/B31.1.
Loc: Singapore
So overall system flexibility is affected, it can have consequence on
spring movement , how much negligible it may be.

Regards

Habib

MoverZ
Member SHR,

Registered:
11/22/06 You are confused. The effect of presure elongation is primarily on

Posts: 1195 straight pipe. The dominant effect of pressure on an elbow with a
Loc: Hants, UK slightly oval cross section, is to open it out. Thus the effect of pressure
on a piping system might be, that opening of an elbow has a marked
effect on, say, a long piece of connected pipe and its end displacement.

Do a little test for yourself with a simple geometry and change the
'Activate Bourdon Effects' settings.

Re: Pressure effect on displacement [Re: MoverZ] #27442 05/13/09 11:11 PM
shr
Member Dear MoverZ

I am sorry to differ.
Registered:
02/16/07 Please have a look in attached file.I made two file with two different
Posts: 508 pressure.
Loc: Singapore
To get same spring load we have to change Toll setting pressure
stiffening "No"

For default setting or if set "Yes" caesar will change elbow flexibility
factor as ( pressure dependant) per Appendix D B31.1/B31.3 note7.

Spring work as per stiffness property , So if piping stiffness property
changes spring must react on changes.

Regards

Habib

Attachments

701PressureStiffness.zip (185 downloads)

MoverZ
Member SHR,

Registered:
11/22/06 Try to stick to your story. Above you said and I quote ...

Posts: 1195
Loc: Hants, UK "In my openion spring movement will be constant irrespective of
pressure variation when Bourdon effect & pressure elongation on bend
both are switched off."

I said you are wrong, spring MOVEMENT may be affected by pressure.

Now you are talking about spring LOAD.

You are WRONG about spring MOVEMENT. I agree that spring LOAD may
not change (assuming it's a constant spring).

shr
Member Hi MoverZ

Yes I made certain error on the statement.
Registered:
02/16/07 I was trying to respond Grand query to get unique spring load( load or
Posts: 508 movement ) result by changing caesar setting.( for different pressure
Loc: Singapore value)

Instead of pressure elongation I had to tell "Pressure Stiffening" (at
caesar setting ToolComputation control).

Spring load is directly related to spring movement (vertical) so there
should not be any issue with referring movement or load.

Regards

Habib

shr
Member
Hi Grant

Registered: If you wish to see no change in spring load/movement for changing
02/16/07 pressure
Posts: 508
you have to set "Pressure Stiffening" (at caesar setting Tool
Loc: Singapore
Computation control) to "NO" in case you are using metallic piping with
caesar default setting.

By default caesar consider

1)Bourdon force off for metallic piping

2)Pressure Stiffening as per Appendix D B31.1/B31.3 note7

Regards

Habib

MoverZ
Member Good grief SHR, don't you read anything ?

Registered:
11/22/06 You are may be wrong in stating .....

Posts: 1195
"Spring load is directly related to spring movement (vertical) so there
Loc: Hants, UK should not be any issue with referring movement or load." We all know
what Hookew's law is. But what about constant force springs as I
mentioned ?

Furthermore, saying ...

"If you wish to see no change in spring load/movement for changing
pressure" ....

In creating a stress analysis model, you should be looking for realistic
representation of what might actually occur in a piping system, not
finding ways to hide or ignore effects.

shr
Member Hi MoverZ

Yes I could have mention that load , movement relation applicable for
Registered:
02/16/07 variable spring only. constant spring as it state always constant load.
Posts: 508
Loc: Singapore Regarding "realistic representation" I like to say realistic approximation
representation.

Caesar default do not consider bourdon effect, does not mean that effect
is not present there for metallic piping, I like to consider it under
approximation.

Code (B31.1/B31.3) ask Appendix D note7 for Large bore thin wall
thickness pipe , but I think Caesar consider it irrespective of pipe OD &
thickness. I don't see we need to be very serious of it.

I have asked to set "Pressure Stiffening" "No" just to cross check how
variation of load came into picture, not to apply in real analysis.

Even if somebody use that, still can argue for pipe diameter & thickness
limit because Code has not specify clearly the limit.

I already cross check, it is not going to create huge error in calculation.

You are right to say we should not "finding ways to hide or ignore
effects." but still can go for realistic approximation , as long as we
understand what assumption we are considering & what could the
possible impact.

MoverZ
Member SHR,

Registered:
11/22/06 I have dealt with reanalysis of large bore gas transmission piping,

Posts: 1195 where the design temperature was 50 deg C and a stupid engineer
Loc: Hants, UK thought it ok to ignore pressure elongation. It was thin wall, high yield
pipe and the thermal equivalent of pressure was about 25 deg C.
Consequently expansion and thrusts were grossly underestimated.
Clearly pressure elongation and thermal expansion are not the same,
but ignore pressure effects at your peril.

Returning to your latest missive ... Deliberately introducing an error is
ok provided it's not a huge one ? That is a bold judgement. How big is
huge in that sense ? To paraphrase a famous WW2 air vice marshal,
there are old stressmen and bold stressmen, but no old, bold stressmen.
Think about it.

shr
Member Hi MoverZ

Registered:
02/16/07 Thanks For sharing your practical experience.
Posts: 508
I appreciate if you share more information on that gas piping regarding
Loc: Singapore diameter , thickness , pressure & what exactly happen at site
(accident?).

I think it could help our forum member.

Thanks & Regards

Habib

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