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Tony Levin: Stickin' With The Low-End
Tony Levin: Stickin' With The Low-End
Tony Levin: Stickin' With The Low-End
It’s not surprising that Tony Levin has always been a player of instruments in the low end of the
sonic range. From his experiences with upright basses in classical and jazz music through his
ongoing, innovative efforts with his Chapman Electric Sticks as well as his Music Man electric
basses, Levin’s been a force to be reckoned with for decades. Small wonder he’s been heard on
hundreds of albums, and has been the musical anchor for King Crimson, as well as Peter Gabriel’s
band.
Levin now owns Papa Bear Records and has written a book titled Beyond the Bass Clef, which
includes numerous commentaries, recollections, and tips… as well as Levin’s personal recipe for
carrot cake.
However, a new album by the Tony Levin Band, Pieces of the Sun (Narada) was the primary
impetus for VG‘s dialogue with the veteran bassist, but Levin was up for discussing all facets of his
long career.
It’s not surprising that Tony Levin has always been a player of instruments in the low-end of the
sonic range. From his experiences with upright basses in classical and jazz music through his
ongoing, innovative efforts with his Chapman Electric Sticks as well as his Music Man electric
basses, Levin’s been a force to be reckoned with for decades. Small wonder he’s been heard on
hundreds of albums, and has been the musical anchor for King Crimson, as well as Peter Gabriel’s
band.
Levin now owns Papa Bear Records and has written a book titled Beyond the Bass Clef, which
includes numerous commentaries, recollections, and tips… as well as Levin’s personal recipe for
carrot cake.
However, a new album by the Tony Levin Band, Pieces of the Sun (Narada) was the primary
impetus for VG‘s dialogue with the veteran bassist, but Levin was up for discussing all facets of his
long career.
Tony Levin: I’m a bass player from the beginning. I asked my parents awhile ago if they
remembered what made me choose the bass back when I was about 11 years old; they said they
asked me then, and I didn’t have a reason – I just liked it. It turned out to be a good decision,
’cause after 44 years I still just like playing the bass. It’s kinda lucky, I think, to be able to do
I went to college with Steve. He took me under his wing and showed me how to get the feel right
when playing jazz; I’d been a classical player up till then. It must’ve been tough, with me always
playing right in the middle of the beat, oblivious to the nuances going on around me.
When we both moved to New York in the ’70s, we got into recording and did quite a few records
as a rhythm section. To me, the striking thing about Steve isn’t just that he plays the right thing,
but that he is always learning from other players, practic�ing, and trying to improve his playing.
That’s pretty amazing for a musician of his caliber, and though I can’t claim to be as
conscientious, I try to use him as an inspiration keep my playing moving, without set�tling into
complacency.
When you made the move to pop/rock music, what were your earliest instruments and
amps?
After upright, I made the standard moves; first an Ampeg Baby Bass with an Ampeg B-15 amp.
That bass had, of course, a great tubby sound for Latin or dance playing, but I was trying to coax
jazz out of it, so I soon moved on. When Andy Mouzon came to Rochester (New York) with Jackie
& Roy, I heard him play a Fender bass and asked where I could get one. He said, “Go to Dan
Armstrong’s guitar shop in [Greenwich] Village, get a used Fender Precision, not a new one.”
So I did. The ’55 Precision I got at Dan Armstrong’s for $180 was my main bass for many years. I
You got into studio work in New York before really breaking out in a band, and the
earliest events I could find on your discography were two 1972 dates, a Cher album,
I did Chuck’s albums back in Rochester, with Steve, before moving to New York. In the big city, I
joined a spectacularly unsuccessful band called Aha! The Attack of the Green Slime Beast. Not
much happened with that band. The first New York session was Rock Encounter, with guitarist Joe
Beck and a rhythm section jamming with Sabicas, who was, I’m told, “the father of modern
Flamenco.” Pretty odd session, be�cause the Sabicas brothers spoke no English and the jams
were different each time, meaning I had to guess at the chord each downbeat. I’m not sure I want
You began using the Chapman Stick in the ’70s, when you first affil�iated with Peter
I heard about it from a lot of people, mainly because at the time I used a tapping technique and
incessantly practiced during record sessions, I’m embarrassed to admit. So it was a pretty easy
transition.
In those early days, I took the Stick to many sessions, only to be told to, “Put that thing away,”
because it looked so different. I liked it for two reasons; the different tuning inspired me to come
up with differ�ent bass parts, and the tone was extremely dif�ferent; lots of attack, but also
One of the most recognized “Stick licks” is the intro to King Crimson’s “Elephant Talk.”
Yeah, “Elephant Talk” is a popular piece for Stick players, not only because the instrument was
finally mixed up-front so you could hear it, but it’s damn easy. It can be done with two fingers if
Stick.com has info about lots of players, and there is a community of Stickists who stay in touch
The Funk Fingers are drumsticks that attach to a player’s fingers. You can hear them on Peter
Gabriel’s “Steam” and other songs from that record (Us). They came about from doing Peter’s
song, “Big Time,” with Jerry Marotta drumming on the bass strings. When I tried it live, the
re�sults were less than stunning! Peter suggested I try to attach drumsticks to my fingers. V”ila,
a year or so later, after having broken many strings, having sticks fly into the audience, and
I later sold Funk Fingers on my website. About 1,000 players got them before I got tired of the
The ’80s version of King Crimson was originally slated to have been called Discipline,
which ended up being the title of the first album. There weren’t many Mellotrons in that
I wasn’t comfortable with the name “Discipline.” Hey, why mince words? I thought it was a real
bad name, and so did some others in the band. So we had some discussions; Bill (Bruford) and
Robert (Fripp) having been in King Crimson at one time… gee, that might be a good name for the
group! I’m sure the name change involved a lot more issues to Robert, who’s controls it. But to
Your friendship and musical association with Bruford continues to this day. What makes
He’s a great drummer for a bass player to be with and to learn from. Bill never plays things the
same way twice; never plays parts anybody else would play. He has a wonderful, refreshing
approach to his music, is a unique player, and inspires those with him to try to also be unique.
One of my favorite experiences with Bill was on the Anderson, Wakeman, Bruford, Howe tour.
When they gave Bill his “equal time” solo, he re�quested it be a duet with me, and each night we
Didn’t Jeff Berlin have to sub for you on part of that tour?
Yup. I got sick near the end, and had to be hospitalized after our Houston show. Jeff was asked to
come in and learn the very difficult material for the last few shows, which included a video shoot
of the concert. It must’ve been a tough thing to do with such short notice, but they got the right
guy.
You’ve favored Music Man basses for some time. Are you an endorser? One of your
instruments was painted yellow, with the logo from the Three of a Perfect Pair album.
Before that, the same bass had a black hexagon on a white background for a Peter Gabriel tour,
I’ve been playing Music Man basses since my friend ["Tonight Show" bassist] Joel DiBartolo mailed
me one! I put my Fender away and stayed with the Music Man from then on. I do have a loose
endorsement with them; every few years I ask them for some ridiculously difficult modification to
a bass, like making me a three-�string – and oh yes, please don’t put any knobs on it; just fixed
volume and tone. And then there was my “Graffiti Bass,” made at a NAMM show, where just about
My latest was a five-string piezo – they weren’t doing them then, though they are now – with
I play their basses because they’re right for me, customized or not, and I’ve played them on many
albums.
I was on the road a few years ago when my barn burned down. Sadly, a lot of my instruments
were in it. One remnant was some charred thing that seemed to have been a bass. No neck left,
but the truss road was bent in half from the heat. I could tell from the melted electronics that it
had been the new three-string they’d custom-made for me. So I sent them a fax noting that I was
having some trouble with the neck adjustment on the new bass, then I shipped it to them.
I waited weeks, then got a fax reply saying that the warranty didn’t cover playing in smoky bars!
You’ve played on some high-profile albums, like Pink Floyd’s A Momentary Lapse of
I’m on all of Momentary Lapse but only one song on Brothers in Arms. I’m always surprised when
I get a call to play on a high-visibility al�bum. Sometimes they’re fun to do, sometimes not.
It was producer Bob Ezrin who asked me to come in for the Pink Floyd album; their first with�out
Roger Waters, as I recall. Bob had used me before, on Peter Gabriel 1, on Lou Reed’s Berlin, and
As for the Dire Straits release, I really didn’t do much on it. I’d played on a movie track for Mark
was really more about New Age. How did you feel then, and how do you feel now, about
videos being practically requisite for musicians to garner notice in the marketplace?
Well, I’m so far off the video thing that I haven’t thought about it for ages. Most groups I play with
now are working hard just to keep themselves going. Playing live is the key to that, and maybe it
al�ways has been, and I think less and less is being assumed about record company help, let
alone radio play, let alone MTV playing your video. Jeesh, that’s about like winning the lottery!
I don’t think it’s all a negative thing; there seem to be more small labels than ever, and more non-
label ways to get CDs out. It seems to me that more good music is being made and heard, from
But you used the phrase “garner some notice in the marketplace,” and that is for sure tougher
than ever, even for record companies, let alone a band that’s selling its own CDs at gigs.
The quality of music is the most important thing, and some darn good players are making some
Tell me about your progression to utilizing a five-string bass. Do you play a 12-string
Just having five strings on the bass wasn’t a big change for me. I’ve been playing an NS Electric
Upright a lot lately. That took some readjustment, even though I started long ago on upright. The
12-string Grand Stick is also a very easy adjustment from the 10-string, especially since you can
The latest lineup of King Crimson in which you were a part was the ’80s version, plus
Any question involving Crimson always has a complicated answer. It was the idea of Robert Fripp
to have six guys in the ’90s group. One way to look at the new arrangements we were trying was
to divide the band into two trios, answering each other musically, and sometimes joining. Sounded
Right now, I’m not touring or recording with the band, and neither is Bill Bruford, so maybe it’s a
“double duo” for the time being. Whatever the description – and I’m told I’m still a member of the
group – I’m sure Crimson will continue to come up with unusual ways to do things.
You now own your own label, called Papa Bear. Details?
In the mid ’90s I started it just to release my solo projects without having to go begging to record
companies. My first release was World Diary, a CD of duets and trios with players I like from
around the world. Since it was my own label, I had the freedom to design a special package,
record the music I wanted without regard to radio play or genre, and do the artwork myself. And
best of all, to not get booted off the label when it didn’t sell a lot!
Then I topped myself with music out of the mainstream with the next album, From the Caves of
the Iron Mountain – Stick, bansuri flute, and Taos drums, recorded binaurally inside a cave. Try
I’ve continued to do special projects with Papa Bear, and I sell only on the web and phone;
distribution is too complicated, and the business of it would take too much of my time.
I’ve released a book, Beyond the Bass Clef, and have started a series of prints; hand-colored black
and white photos, the first being of Robert Fripp. Those who’ve bought products from the site feel
they’re getting music and art directly from the artist, and are kind of in on a well-kept secret.
Your new album, Pieces of the Sun, is your second Narada solo release. How does it
When I toured with Waters, I was able to get the musicians I most wanted, Gabriel band alumni
Larry Fast and Jerry Marotta, and a good friend, guitarist Jesse Gress, who’s played with Todd
Rundgren for many years. The music got a lot stronger as we toured, and we got tight as a band.
So this time, I composed music specifically for that lineup, especially wanting to feature Jesse’s
lead playing.
I also wanted to delve back into my history in prog rock. When writing the previous CD, I’d been
missing the World Music playing I used to do with Peter Gabriel, so I wrote in that vein. Not this
time – there are references, subtle and not-so-subtle, to my early days with Gabriel, to Larry’s
Synergy music, and to the complex time signatures I lived with in King Crimson.
There are other differences; a lot of my early composition was collaborative, on whatever project I
was doing. I’m just now getting into the swing of being free to compose however I like, which is
leading to some fairly complex forms and lengthy pieces. This time around, there are seven-,
eight-, and nine-minute compositions, and because I like it all and didn’t want to skimp on the CD,
technologically antiquated?
Well, you’d have to ask Larry, but my feeling about his playing is that while there are lots of very
good synth players out there, when you think about how many have their own sound the field
narrows a lot. Larry has found ways to develop a distinctive sound on synth since the early days,
when it was done with wires, and he’s still got that unique thing going.
And for this album, I asked him if we could play one of my favorite Synergy pieces from a long
time ago, “Phobos.” We actually had Larry do the same parts he did then, although it was a pickle
for him to organize the separate loops – technology has changed a lot in 20 years! He did the
same parts, and we played on top; Jerry gave it a completely different drum feel, I played Stick
bass lines, and in the second half, Jesse devised a great guitar solo section.
The lead-off track on the new album, “Apollo,” starts off like a movie theme. How did
guest artists the California Guitar Trio end up in the middle of it?
That’s one of those big compositions I was mentioning. “Apollo” starts with a short statement of
the main theme by guitar and synth, then drums and Stick enter, and it goes off into “prog world,”
with some interesting bandplay around odd meters. That morphs into a section we named the
“mother-in-law” section, ’cause it’s got a kind of “naggy” guitar sound. After a couple of those, the
sun breaks through the clouds, figuratively, and we’ve got the C.G.T. with their crystal-clear
acoustic sound, playing in a relatively simple 5/4 theme. I’ve toured and recorded a lot with the
Trio, and I love their musicality and their distinctive sound. It’s an honor to have them appear on
the record.
The acoustic bass joins in on the repeat of the C.G.T. theme, and Paul Richard of the Trio has a
solo on fuzz bottleneck acoustic. Then, suddenly the full band blasts back with “mother-in-law”
time, rising to the recap of Theme one, this time good and strong, with a counterline on French
Whew… see what I mean about complex forms? It takes eight minutes just to describe this one!
It’s an electric upright, played with a bow; a pret�ty solid bass sound, but with some raunch to it.
you succeeded with the oblique arrangement. One would�n’t think you’d even be
obligated to pay royalties.
Ah, legalities! I’m no expert at this stuff, and just do what the lawyers tell me to do. I do think the
original writer is Chuck Rio, and he’s credited, as are the publishing companies. Because the
arrangement is radically different, we asked the publishers to share credit, and not having heard
back when the CD went to press, it was de�cided to put my name and publishing company there,
too, just in case. The original writers and publishers will certainly be paid part of the mech�anical
royalties, but what share will be determined not by what it says on the package, but by some
arrangement still to be made. I was told I could have just kept the publishing if I gave it a
different title, but then, it wouldn’t have been funny, would it?
Some may think they hear material that is King Crimson-like – certain Fripp-ish or
Well, whatever a listener hears is valid for him, and I’ve got no right over it. I’d say that
sometimes Jesse goes into a Crim-type lick – “Geronimo” comes to mind – and we’ve certainly
gone there in the live show, when we do both “Sleepless” and “Elephant Talk,” where Jesse covers
My Stick playing can’t help but seem a bit like Crimson, because it’s what I played in the ’80s
Discipline stuff. But Jerry rarely, if ever, plays like Bill Bruford, at least, not to my ears.
But I don’t mind being compared to that great group. What I think will happen more is the
comparison to Peter Gabriel’s early rec�ords, simply because three of us were lending our sounds
to Peter’s music. Take away Peter and there’s still a heavy resemblance.
“The Fifth Man” is another prog rock-type of effort; it too has more than one facet.
It starts with the Stick doing cross-rhythm chords, a la Crimson. Then drums join in. When the
guitar and synth enter, the piece changes but stays in the same key. Guitar and Stick share the
lead and harmonies, which is a direction I’ve been wanting to go with the Stick. I think it’s a neat
lead instrument, but my ability on it is mainly on the bass side, so “The Fifth Man” is kind of my
entrance into the lead field with it. The intensity grows until guitar and Stick play a few choruses
in harmony, a la “Hotel California,” with some blazing licks that I’m wondering how I’ll play live!
One more thing; the name comes from a meeting I had with King Crimson. They were touring as a
quartet without me or Bill Bruford when I joined them for breakfast one day. Robert assured me
that although I wasn’t on the tour, I was considered the fifth man in the group. I don’t know
exactly what that means, but it sure has a nice ring to it, doesn’t it?
“Silhouette,” the final track, sounds like it could fit into the credit sequence at the end
of a movie, and it seems to draw a bit of influence from Acker Bilk’s “Stranger on the
Shore.”
I hadn’t heard that similarity, but it’s possible; maybe I’m getting a clarinet-like sound out of my
fretless? Seriously, it’s the one ref�erence to Waters of Eden, where the fretless often took the
melody on ballads. It seemed a fitting way to end this album, as it winds down from the intensity
through�out.
I really enjoyed the chance to play with the Mule guys. I guess the track I did will be on the next
release, but the real fun was being part of their show in New York City. I was inspired to see how
hard they work, how well they play, and what a beautiful attitude they have about touring, sharing
the joys of play�ing, about their audience, and about doing their music business. Some�times in
this world of being a musician, the best thing that happens to you is that you get to create music
with some very special people, and hopefully, a little of it rubs off on you.
As we’re doing this, you’re about to get into rehearsals for a tour to promote Pieces of
the Sun. What’s after that, and what of Peter Gabriel or King Crimson?
Well, in the world of rock you never know what’s coming. No plans for me to go back to King
Crimson, but the option will always be there. I know I’m gonna be very busy touring with my
band. Then, I’ll play a bit in Europe with Vonda Shepard, and will hopefully come back to do some
more Tony Levin Band touring in the mid summer. If Peter Gabriel manages to finish up his
album, touring with him in the fall would make this just about the perfect year for me, musically.
I know this is detailed in your book, but can you give us a brief version of your
(chuckles) I was playing in an orchestra for John and Jackie Kennedy on the White House lawn.
This was when the White House was used as a center of cultural promotion, and being a teenage
lad – in other words, having occasional lapses of sanity – I wondered what would happen if I took
JFK walked near me, up the space between the basses and cellos, but I didn’t have the nerve to
do it. Who knows what would have happened if I had? All I ended up with was a wet inner pocket
in my black suit.
By the way, on my website is an excerpt from the record�ing of that concert, with JFK
commenting on the great value of our youth learning to play music. I wonder if he’d have altered
that speech if one of the brats in the symphony had doused him!
It speaks well of Tony Levin that he’s not only perpetually active as a musician, he’s also
perpetually attempting new sounds on unique stringed instruments. Like his mentor Steve Gadd,
Tony Levin doesn’t seem to want to ever stop learning how to improve his musicianship and
This article originally appeared in VG‘s Aug. ’02 issue. All copyrights are by the author and Vintage
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