1st Transcript DSG Insolvency Inquiry 03 Aug 2010

RealTime Transcriptions
TRANSCRIPTION OF THE
INSOLVENCY INQUIRY
IN TERMS OF SECTION 417, 418 OF THE COMPANIES ACT
INTO THE AFFAIRS OF THE INSOLVENT ESTATE OF
DRS DS GRIEVES BRIDGING SOLUTIONS

(PTY) LIMITED
(IN LIQUIDATION)
MASTERS REFERENCE T0240/10
BEFORE
MS R BEKKER
HELD ON
03 AUGUST 2010 PAGES 1 TO 93
HELD AT
BOWMAN GILFILLAN, WEST STREET, SANDTON
64 10th Avenue, Highlands North, Johannesburg

P O Box 721, Highlands North, 2037
Tel: 011-440-3647 Fax: 011-440-9119 Cell: 083 273-5335
E-mail: realtime@pixie.co.za
Web Address: http://mysite.mweb.co.za/residents/pak06278
3rd August 2010 Drs DS Grieves Bridging Solutions (Pty) Ltd (in Liquidation) Inquiry
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1 [PROCEEDINGS ON 3 AUGUST 2010] 1 MR LAHER: That agreement was concluded
2 COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. We 2 on the 11th of September, in terms of which Presidium lent
3 are on record. Today is the 3rd of August 2010. We are 3 and advanced an amount of R13 700 000.00 to M&M?
4 commencing our inquiry in terms of Section 417, 418 of the 4 MR MARAIS: That is right.
5 Companies Act in the matter of Drs DS Grieves Bridging 5 MR LAHER: Do you have a copy of that
6 Solutions (Pty) Limited (in liquidation). Master’s 6 agreement? It is in those files that Presidium gave you.
7 reference number T203/2010. I am going to ask Mr Haroon 7 Madam Commissioner, what Mr Marais is referring to is
8 Laher from Bowman Gilfillan to place himself on record and 8 something that I will deal with as soon as we are finished
9 then we will go around the table thank you. 9 with Mr Marais, is, in total three people were subpoenaed
10 MR LAHER: Yes thank you very much, Madam 10 for the inquiry today. One of them is a representative of
11 Commissioner, my name is Haroon Laher. I am conducting 11 Presidium. The representative is based in Cape Town. We
12 this inquiry in the name of the liquidators of the 12 had, in engagements with the attorneys of record of
13 insolvent company Drs DS Grieve Bridging Solutions 13 Presidium, Edward Nathan Sonnenbergs, through their Cape
14 (Proprietary) Limited (in liquidation). The Master’s 14 Town office, come to an arrangement whereby the documents
15 reference is T0240/10. Also present in the room, this 15 were provided to us and received this morning by overnight
16 morning, as we commence is my assistant Bianca Masterton 16 courier. And the witness in question was excused from
17 and on my right is Attorney Willem Storm, representing the 17 attendance today, on the basis that the witness will attend
18 director of the insolvent company, Mr David Grieve. The 18 the adjourned proceedings, save and except for a particular
19 name in the insolvent company, “Dr DS Grieve” represents 19 period where the attorney had indicated their
20 his full names and initials. I also have a vac student 20 unavailability and that has become somewhat of an error,
21 from Rhodes University, Robin, who will be sitting through 21 because of the date of the inquiry, where you postponed.
22 these proceedings. And across me we have Attorney Adrian 22 COMMISSIONER: That is fine. Thank you.
23 Engelbrecht, who is representing a witness Mr Paul Marais. 23 MR LAHER: Mr Marais, the second document
24 COMMISSIONER: Thank you for that. Can I 24 was the written Sale and Assignment of Claim Agreement
25 proceed to place Mr Marais under oath? 25 between M&M and the insolvent company, in terms of which
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1 MR LAHER: Thank you, you may. 1 the insolvent company disposed of certain right, title and
2 COMMISSIONER: Mr Engelbrecht is there 2 interest in and to certain claims to M&M for a purchase
3 anything in limine before we start? 3 price of R13 700 000.00, which is the equivalent price of
4 MR ENGELBRECHT: No. 4 the loan that was advanced by Presidium to your company, is
5 COMMISSIONER: No? 5 that correct? Do you have a copy of that?
6 MR PAUL MARAIS [d.s.s.] 6 MR MARAIS: Also in those files.
7 COMMISSIONER: Please proceed. 7 MR LAHER: Item number 3 is a list of the
8 MR LAHER: Madam Commissioner, I am just 8 debtors or the claims was sold and assigned by the
9 wondering if we shouldn’t rewind it and just check that the 9 insolvent company to M&M. Do you have a list of those
10 recording is quite clear. 10 debtors that form the subject matter of that agreement?
11 COMMISSIONER: We can do that. Thank 11 MR MARAIS: I do.
12 you, let’s proceed. Mr Dewald Breytenbach is present he is 12 COMMISSIONER: Thank you for that.
13 one of (inaudible) today, thank you very much. Please 13 MR LAHER: Madam Commissioner, what we
14 proceed. 14 have is, for record purposes, an e-mail that was addressed
15 MR LAHER: Thank you, Madam Commissioner. 15 by Paul Marais on the 31st of August 2009 to David Grieve
16 Mr Marais, you received a subpoena requiring your 16 and St John Banjee. Mr Marais, who is St John Banjee?
17 attendance. And in that subpoena you were required to 17 MR MARAIS: He is the representative of
18 bring along certain documents. I just want to go through 18 Presidium, the fund manager.
19 that schedule. You have got a copy of that subpoena in 19 MR LAHER: And the e-mail is headed,
20 front of you. It is the very last page of the subpoena. 20 “final offer for your book”, with your permission, Madam
21 There is a list of documents that were attached. Item 21 Commissioner, if I may mark this as Exhibit A?
22 number 1 is a written Loan Agreement that was entered into 22 COMMISSIONER: That is fine. Thank you,
23 between Presidium and M&M Fundprop (Proprietary) Limited 23 you can mark it. It can be part of the bundle we can mark
24 and M&M Fundprop (Proprietary) Limited, is your company? 24 it A1.
25 MR MARAIS: That’s right. 25 MR LAHER: Mr Marais, I haven’t had a
Tel: 011 021 6457 Fax: 011 440 9119 RealTime Transcriptions Email: realtime@pixie.co.za
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1 chance to go through this very carefully, except when you 1 a report, which is the e-mail I have got here back to
2 showed it to me just before these proceedings started. But 2 Presidium and just gave them my quick summary of what my
3 just on a quick summary, there’s a list of nine debtors on 3 investigation, which took about two days, found after I
4 this piece of paper. 4 read some of the reports of Jaco Spies. But I do not have
5 MR MARAIS: Correct. 5 a full forensic report, which was given to Presidium and I
6 MR LAHER: Are those the nine debtors 6 engaged twice with Jaco Spies just to get some of the files
7 that you acquire in terms of the Sale and Assignment 7 that was my involvement with the forensic auditing of the
8 Agreement? 8 books.
9 MR MARAIS: Correct. 9 MR LAHER: So can I safely assume that
10 MR LAHER: And the purchase price of 10 the forensic report should be included in this bundle of
11 these debtors was R13 700 000.00? 11 documents that we have received from Presidium?
12 MR MARAIS: That’s correct. 12 MR MARAIS: Ja.
13 MR LAHER: And the value of each debt 13 MR LAHER: Just tell us more about these
14 outstanding as at the time you acquired and took cession of 14 debtors now? What’s your experience as regards the
15 the rights of those debtors is reflected next to the name 15 collectability or otherwise of these debtors?
16 of each debtor in points 1 to 9? 16 MR MARAIS: Can I read this?
17 MR MARAIS: That’s correct. 17 COMMISSIONER: Yes, of course you may
18 MR LAHER: And you are involved, as we 18 read –
19 speak at the moment, in a process for the collection of 19 MR LAHER: No just generally. We
20 these debtors? 20 probably will take that as an exhibit as well, but just sum
21 MR MARAIS: The operative word is, 21 it up quickly?
22 “trying to collect”. 22 MR MARAIS: On the 11th of June 2009 after
23 MR LAHER: We will get to that in 23 I had spoken to Jaco Spies, I wrote this report to Roanne
24 engagements, Madam Commissioner. I just want to place on 24 and Singent both representatives of Presidium. And I said,
25 record that Mr Engelbrecht has offered his assistance in 25 “Hi Roanne, Singent, I have just had my last meeting and
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1 relation to the debtors and determination of the status of 1 feedback with Dave Grieve, what a compulsive liar. The
2 the collection of each of these debtors. 2 situation is as follows” and I just gave them the book.
3 COMMISSIONER: Thank you for that. 3 And I said, “legal investigation. His legal documentation
4 MR LAHER: Mr Marais, the next item on 4 is shocking to say the least. Some places where personal
5 the list of documents was, “forensic reports in respect of 5 sureties should have been signed were never signed.
6 the insolvent company”. 6 Initials at the bottom from borrowers sometimes not there,
7 MR MARAIS: I do not have that, because I 7 domiciliums of clients left out. His legal’s for his
8 never received it. I was not part of the forensic report 8 underlying securities all based on letter of undertakings,
9 or the forensic investigation. 9 which can be cancelled at any time. He basically has no
10 MR LAHER: Can you tell the Commissioner 10 hard security for the principle debt. It will be hard to
11 more about this forensic report and what? 11 enforce and client and smart lawyers can keep you busy for
12 MR MARAIS: What happened there is I 12 some time.” I think that basically sums up his legal
13 think Presidium after realising what Dave Grieve has done 13 documentation.
14 and that he did not repay a few loans, they asked a 14 MR LAHER: What have you collected in
15 forensic auditor, I think the guy’s name was Jaco Spies. 15 respect of these debtors?
16 They appointed him to conduct a forensic audit of the book 16 MR MARAIS: Of the R13.7 million, which
17 and also exactly the status of repayment and the monies 17 we bought of the nine clients, we basically spent about R1
18 being repaid to Dr Dave Grieve Bridging. I think he 18 million in further advances to protect the assets. And
19 realised after his forensic report that approximately R4 19 about R380 000.00 on legal fees and about R1 million on
20 million was lost and misappropriated by Dr Dave Grieve. 20 interest payments to Presidium for the facility that brings
21 That particular auditor, however, was a forensic auditor, 21 you back to a sales price of about R16.8 around there. Of
22 but he was not a developer or did not understand property 22 that R16.8 up till now I received, we bought or we took
23 (inaudible) of property development itself. Or for that 23 over one flat of R600 000.00 and that is the basis of our
24 matter bridging finance transactions. Presidium asked me 24 collection in the past nine months – ten months. And
25 to go and look at it and I looked at the files and I wrote 25 Adrian is busy with the legal process with other debtors.
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1 If I can go through the debtors? Do you want me to go 1 MR LAHER: In other words, you stepped
2 through the debtors? 2 into the shoes of Presidium?
3 MR LAHER: Before we get there, I mean, 3 MR MARAIS: No, I stepped in to the shoes
4 you must understand that Madam Commissioner is in the dark. 4 of David Grieve, because Presidium was my creditor.
5 MR MARAIS: Okay. 5 MR LAHER: Sorry. You stepped into the
6 MR LAHER: And she needs to understand 6 shoes of the insolvent company?
7 how is it that you got involved with these debtors, as I 7 MR MARAIS: That’s correct.
8 understand, not having had the advantage of going through 8 MR LAHER: Took over the insolvent
9 the documents in that much detail. Presidium advanced, and 9 company’s obligations to Presidium and took, in lieu of the
10 please correct me where I am wrong, Presidium advanced a 10 debt that you acquired, took over Presidium security in the
11 facility to the insolvent company, am I correct? That 11 cession over the debtors?
12 facility was secured by a cession of the debtors? 12 MR MARAIS: That’s correct.
13 MR MARAIS: Correct. 13 MR LAHER: You spoke that you had in
14 MR LAHER: When the insolvent company 14 front of you a list of the debtors and the current status.
15 defaulted on its obligations to Presidium on the repayment 15 What is the date of that communication?
16 of those loan facilities, the forensic team was sent in to 16 MR MARAIS: That was the 11th of June
17 investigate what was happening within the organisation 17 2009.
18 being the insolvent company. And in particular what the 18 MR LAHER: Are you able to report any
19 status was of those debtors? 19 progress since that date on the collection of the debtors
20 MR MARAIS: Correct. 20 or is the status no different from what is reported in that
21 MR LAHER: The forensic team then 21 communication?
22 submitted a report to Presidium on the debtors? As you say 22 MR MARAIS: 95% of the cases are in the
23 that the forensic team, not being well attuned with 23 legal process right now, being liquidated and sequestrated.
24 property matters, gave some credence to the level of these 24 [Interruption in recording.]
25 debtors? 25 COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much for
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1 MR MARAIS: Yes. 1 that, let’s proceed. You were laughing, Mr Marais, you say
2 MR LAHER: And it appears from there that 2 you are an optimist?
3 you then engaged in a transaction with Presidium? 3 MR MARAIS: The hopes of recovering is
4 MR MARAIS: Correct. 4 your guess is as good as mine. It is basically going
5 MR LAHER: Now can you just explain to 5 through the legal process now and after liquidation, as you
6 Madam Commissioner how you understood that transaction 6 guys know, you have to go through the same inquiry and the
7 between you and Presidium? 7 same process of looking at the assets, the underlying
8 MR MARAIS: The normal, I am in the 8 assets, what the guys have and also collecting a personal
9 business to buy the said debt, assessed properties on 9 surety. If they have assets you are lucky. If they don’t
10 liquidations and debtors’ books. I looked at the files and 10 have assets it is a done deal.
11 I said, I actually looked at nine debtors and I said those 11 MR LAHER: Madam Commissioner, I think
12 are the debtors I feel comfortable that there is more than 12 except for the handing up of that June communication – how
13 a 30% chance to recover some of the debt. Then I looked at 13 many pages is that? Pages marked A2 and A3.
14 the files, just to look at the investigation and the 14 COMMISSIONER: That is fine, thank you.
15 paperwork. And I spoke to Singent and spoke to David 15 MR LAHER: I have no further questions
16 Grieve and I said I will buy those nine debtors from you. 16 for Mr Marais. Except that I think Mr Marais must be
17 Subsequently I received a facility from Singent of 17 warned. I have an arrangement with his attorney that to
18 Presidium for 13.7 I bought that. And that 13.7 was 18 the extent that he will not be required, we will notify him
19 deducted from the exposure of David Grieve to Presidium. 19 -
20 The loan facility from Presidium to ourselves was based on 20 COMMISSIONER: Perfect.
21 exactly the same principle as the loan facility from 21 MR LAHER: As well in advance as
22 Presidium to David Grieve and that is there is a loan into 22 possible, after going through these documents.
23 the company. And your security for that loan is basically 23 COMMISSIONER: That’s fine. Thank you
24 your debtors’ book and your personal surety and your 24 for that. Do you have anything in re-examination Mr
25 company surety. 25 Engelbrecht?
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1 MR ENGELBRECHT: Nothing. 1 or seven years. And I went into business after that and
2 COMMISSIONER: Okay thank you. Mr 2 occasionally I would still help people out as locum.
3 Marais, thank you very much for your attendance and your 3 MR LAHER: When you practised as a
4 patience. I am going to warn you for the 1st and the 2nd of 4 medical practitioner did you practice for your own account?
5 November 2010 9:30 same premises. We will liaise with Mr 5 Or did you practice at a hospital or a clinic?
6 Engelbrecht and we will make a plan for accommodation. 6 DR GRIEVE: A little bit of both.
7 Thank you for that gentlemen you may be excused. 7 Initially I worked at One Military Hospital then I went
8 [INQUIRY ADJOURNS INQUIRY RESUMES] 8 into private practice for my own account.
9 COMMISSIONER: Let me place on record 9 MR LAHER: When did you start business?
10 that creditors have now joined us. Just for the record and 10 DR GRIEVE: Medical business or the?
11 for housekeeping let’s just get the creditors’ names 11 MR LAHER: Anything non medically
12 please. Sir, your name please? 12 related?
13 MR FOURIE: I am Dawid Fourie. 13 DR GRIEVE: Non medically related that
14 COMMISSIONER: Okay. 14 would be about 2002.
15 MS FOURIE: My name is Rosa Fourie. 15 MR LAHER: And what was that?
16 COMMISSIONER: Thank you. 16 DR GRIEVE: I started to build spec
17 MR AARDENDORF: Hans Aardendorf. 17 houses, as well as in the process of that, one of the
18 MR BESTER: Louis Bester. 18 attorneys introduced me to bridging finance, where we
19 COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much. 19 started to do bridging finance as well.
20 Okay, let’s proceed. Dr Grieve or let me just ask, Mr 20 MR LAHER: So you initially ventured in
21 Fourie is there anything in limine before you proceed? 21 the property development market?
22 MR FOURIE: No. 22 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
23 COMMISSIONER: Okay. Dr Grieve are you 23 MR LAHER: And how many of those property
24 comfortable in giving your evidence in English? 24 developments did you complete?
25 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 25 DR GRIEVE: Up to today? I couldn’t give
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1 COMMISSIONER: Full names please? 1 an exact number, probably about 50.
2 DAVID STEPHEN GRIEVE [d.s.s.] 2 MR LAHER: The various sizes of those
3 MR LAHER: Thank you, Madam Commissioner. 3 developments?
4 May I just for record and for clarification purpose give 4 DR GRIEVE: Only small. We did a few
5 [cell phone interference] terminology, I think we can refer 5 small township developments, subdivisions of stands, things
6 to the witness as, “Dr Grieve” and to the insolvent company 6 like that. And then obviously we built a couple of houses.
7 as “the Grieve Company” if that is okay with everybody. 7 Some of them were larger houses, some of them being small
8 When we talk about the company we call it the Grieve 8 houses, but to put an exact rand value on it, I am going to
9 Company and when we talk about Dr Grieve, we will talk 9 struggle to do that.
10 about Dr Grieve, simply because the name is reflected in 10 MR LAHER: And when did you become
11 the corporate entity. 11 interested in the bridging finance business?
12 COMMISSIONER: A good idea thank you very 12 DR GRIEVE: Well Attorney Bert Smith, who
13 much. 13 is a friend of mine, and one of the properties that sold
14 MR LAHER: Dr Grieve, you are a medical 14 there was a bit of money lying in his trust and he had a
15 doctor by qualification, is that correct? 15 client needing bridging and he said would you be interested
16 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 16 in doing something like this. And I said yes, why not.
17 MR LAHER: When did you qualify and where 17 And I did one by accident like that and another and
18 did you qualify? 18 another. And I think from 2002 we did the ad hoc for his
19 DR GRIEVE: I qualified in 96 and the 19 firm and it just grew from there and we ventured into other
20 University of Pretoria, Tukkies. 20 firms from there.
21 MR LAHER: Did you practice as a medical 21 MR LAHER: Now I think I may understand
22 practitioner? 22 what bridging finance is and I think I am not even sure if
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I did. 23 that understanding is correct. But can you tell the Madam
24 MR LAHER: For how long? 24 Commissioner what bridging finance is and what it entailed?
25 DR GRIEVE: For quite a while about six 25 DR GRIEVE: I will do my best to keep it
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1 accurate and short. But typically if somebody has a 1 bridging finance that you are engaged in?
2 property and he has some debt on it. Let’s say he has a 2 DR GRIEVE: Yes. Typically rates and
3 house and just as an example, it is the easiest way to try 3 taxes, but those would be very much smaller amounts where
4 and explain it. He owes the bank, say, R500 000.00 and he 4 somebody has now sold that property. They don’t even have
5 has just sold it for R1 million to somebody else that guy’s 5 the cash flow to settle the rates and taxes, which are in
6 finance is in place. Now the guy selling the house needs 6 arrears. And then we would advance, also, on the basis of
7 that money very quickly and due to our country’s 7 the money that is coming in from the bond, from the buyer.
8 bureaucracies it can take three months easily for a 8 So it is very much the same as the first scenario, but it
9 transfer like that to happen. So what we would typically 9 happens to be for rates and taxes and not necessarily for
10 do is we would buy the proceeds of the profit portion. So 10 the client’s pocket, per se.
11 he was due 500 profit and 500 would go to the bank. So we 11 MR LAHER: And again the proceeds are
12 would say okay we will buy that 500 from you, but we will 12 secure?
13 probably buy it at about R450 000.00 or something like 13 DR GRIEVE: Ja. And then we had a couple
14 that, depending on [background noise]. 14 of developers as well, they had finished the build and they
15 And we would advance him the money and then we 15 would also have sale agreements in place with some letters
16 would wait for the transfer to take place. So then the 16 of undertaking, exactly the same thing, but they might have
17 attorneys would typically settle us. That is one example. 17 had more than one unit. They might have had multiple units
18 Another example – 18 that they had various guarantees from different buyers in
19 MR LAHER: Sorry, let’s just stop with 19 place. And then we would buy the proceeds as well.
20 that one example. 20 MR LAHER: And again that would be
21 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 21 secure, based on the letter of undertaking that you got on
22 MR LAHER: That type of transaction is 22 the committed sale?
23 almost secure? 23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 24 MR LAHER: So where was the risk in this
25 MR LAHER: It is backed up against a 25 business?
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1 guarantee from the conveyancing attorney that on 1 DR GRIEVE: The risk? Hindsight is very
2 registration of transfer, you will receive R500 000.00 the 2 easy, so the risk was if you ended up with a dubious or a
3 surplus after the settlement of the bond? 3 dodgy, if I can use such a term, attorney that gives you an
4 DR GRIEVE: That’s correct. A letter of 4 undertaking and then reneges on that undertaking.
5 undertaking we normally get from those firms. 5 MR LAHER: As long as you exclude the
6 MR LAHER: Yes. 6 present company you can use that.
7 DR GRIEVE: The second scenario would be 7 DR GRIEVE: No, that’s fine. And that
8 the same client owes 500 on a house. There is equity 8 would be a risk. And a risk would be insolvency or a
9 available. He goes to the bank, asks for a second bond, 9 sequestration during a transaction, would be a risk. We
10 because he needs money for something. And they grant him 10 actually had one such one at the beginning of last year,
11 an additional facility of 400 or 500 or whatever it is and 11 but we even managed to get some of the funds out of that
12 when we have some sort of letter from the attorneys saying 12 transaction, but that is also a risk and a debt during such
13 that this has been approved and will be paying out at some 13 a transaction. It would be a potential risk.
14 stage, we are willing to buy those proceeds as well. So it 14 MR LAHER: And death or insolvency would
15 would not only be a sale proceed, but we would also do a 15 be a risk to the extent that the transaction does not
16 bond proceed. And then – 16 proceed after death or insolvency?
17 MR LAHER: Then again that is also 17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 secure? 18 MR LAHER: In the meanwhile you have
19 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 19 advanced the money, based on the transaction taking place?
20 MR LAHER: So the transaction that you 20 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
21 would be bridge in respect of that second bond would be 21 MR LAHER: And how many of such
22 settled the moment the second bond is registered and the 22 transactions did you come across in the years of your
23 proceeds are released by the second bondholder? 23 business?
24 DR GRIEVE: That’s correct, ja. 24 DR GRIEVE: I just want to clarify. You
25 MR LAHER: Are there any other types of 25 mean those that didn’t go through?
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1 MR LAHER: Yes. 1 attempts to try and recover that money?
2 DR GRIEVE: In the years of my business 2 DR GRIEVE: The attempts that I have
3 very very few initially. But in the last year we did pick 3 tried to recover that money, I will have to say, as far as
4 up a bit of stress or strain. And towards the end of last 4 I know, I have a letter where the Law Society of South
5 year, there was a big crash in the property market and the 5 Africa had removed that firm from the Registrar. I am not
6 result speaks for itself, it put a lot of pressure on a lot 6 sure if that is still the case, but they were removed and
7 of people in the same business as what I was doing. 7 I handed them over to an attorney’s firm, Tim du Toit and
8 MR LAHER: We are going to come to that, 8 obviously at the end of last year, I could not afford to
9 the latter part of the business before. 9 pay Tim du Toit any further. So those files are still
10 DR GRIEVE: Prior to 2009, I want to go 10 lying on their table and I do not have any further access
11 as far as to say that there was no bad debts on my books. 11 to them.
12 MR LAHER: What period of 2009, 12 MR LAHER: Let’s try and focus a little
13 middle/early 2009? 13 on the capitalisation of the company, of the Grieve
14 DR GRIEVE: No. 14 Company. How did you capitalise the company when you
15 MR LAHER: 2008. 15 started?
16 DR GRIEVE: I would like to correct that 16 DR GRIEVE: Initially with my own funds
17 for the record, sorry, until the end of 2008 I can quite 17 and then I took some bonds on some of my properties and put
18 confidently say for many years there had been no bad debts 18 that in as well. And then it got to a point where I was
19 in the book at all. 19 running a bit low and I spoke to a couple of my friends and
20 MR LAHER: This was a very secure 20 some of them were willing to put some money up for me as
21 business? 21 well.
22 DR GRIEVE: Ja, I was very confident in 22 MR LAHER: What do you mean “running
23 the business until the end of 2008 and then obviously 23 low”? Is it that the business was growing at such a rapid
24 during 2009 we picked up our first insolvency, we managed 24 rate that you needed more capital injection?
25 to get that money out and then much later on in the year we 25 DR GRIEVE: Exactly.
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1 picked up a few hassles. 1 MR LAHER: And you approached your
2 MR LAHER: But can you tell the 2 friends for that injection?
3 Commissioner the level of those problems, the financial 3 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
4 dips, the SARS things? 4 MR LAHER: Of capital?
5 DR GRIEVE: Sure. I could do so very 5 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
6 accurately if I still had the records that somebody had 6 MR LAHER: And I assume that some of the
7 taken from my offices. But just one example of such would 7 friends that you are referring to are people sitting around
8 be a firm called Ebersohn and Grobler, who brought four 8 the table?
9 transactions to me with good letters of undertaking. And 9 DR GRIEVE: Indeed.
10 we are talking about R5 million just there at the end of 10 MR LAHER: And the business then grew
11 last year, where these guys literally lied to me, the firm. 11 even further?
12 MR LAHER: Give me more information on 12 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
13 the transactions? 13 MR LAHER: And tell me a little about
14 DR GRIEVE: Supposedly, typical, 14 Presidium, the structure, finance fund and the involvement
15 presented to me as typical bridging transactions. I was 15 of the Grieve Company with that entity?
16 informed that there – 16 DR GRIEVE: Well we had grown to a fairly
17 MR LAHER: At a purchase level or at a 17 decent size and things were still going well and markets
18 bond level? 18 were going positive on all the bridging houses that were
19 DR GRIEVE: [Cell phone interference] I 19 doing similar business to myself. Property was still going
20 would have to find those records to give you the exact, but 20 up and these guys were sitting with money and they were
21 it was a bit of both, some bonds, some purchases. And each 21 willing to offer it as a form of funding and we entered
22 one of those was about 750 – 800 each and obviously there 22 into negotiations and they offered me funding.
23 is an interest, discounting factored in, we are talking 23 MR LAHER: When did the agreement
24 about just over R4 million that that one firm hurt me with. 24 commence for that funding?
25 MR LAHER: And what happened to your 25 DR GRIEVE: I cannot give you an exact
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1 date. I don’t know you guys may be able to answer that 1 the beginning.
2 better, because you will have a copy of those records, but 2 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
3 it was in the middle of 2008, somewhere, I can’t give you 3 MR LAHER: What I want to call the “sale
4 the exact date I can’t recall. 4 bridge”.
5 MR LAHER: And what did you see as the 5 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
6 purpose of that funding? 6 MR LAHER: So if you had a sale agreement
7 DR GRIEVE: To grow my book substantially 7 presented to you, where you needed to bridge a portion of
8 more. And also the opportunity to, as we grow, walk with 8 that purchase price, you would secure an advance from
9 the Presidium Strategy Finance Fund to hopefully grow and 9 Presidium out of your facility?
10 nurture a good relationship and even get further funding 10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
11 from them. 11 MR LAHER: To enable you to meet that
12 MR LAHER: And what were the terms and 12 request?
13 conditions of the Presidium facility? 13 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
14 DR GRIEVE: That is quite a … [problem 14 MR LAHER: You would send a draw down
15 with recording]. 15 notice or a request for payment to Presidium?
16 COMMISSIONER: Thank you, are we on 16 DR GRIEVE: Indeed, a draw down notice.
17 record? Thank you very much, let’s proceed, thank you Mr 17 MR LAHER: And that draw down notice
18 Laher. 18 would be supported by the underlying transaction in the
19 MR LAHER: Thank you, Madam Commissioner. 19 form of the sale agreement?
20 Dr Grieve, we were at the Presidium agreement and I asked 20 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
21 you just before we broke your recollection of the broad 21 MR LAHER: In other words, Presidium
22 terms and conditions and structure of that Presidium 22 would verify the drawn down notice against the actual
23 agreement. Can you tell Madam Commissioner what you 23 transaction?
24 understood to be the terms and conditions of the facilities 24 DR GRIEVE: Well at the minimum, at least
25 that were advanced by Presidium to the Grieve Company? 25 the letter of undertaking from the attorneys would be
Page 26 Page 28
1 DR GRIEVE: I will do my best with what I 1 provided. And then they would come and visit me and go
2 can recall on that. They gave me a facility of R20 million 2 through some of the agreements on an ad hoc basis as well.
3 and there was an interest rate connected to that facility. 3 They would use that letter of undertaking or as you termed
4 I am not now a 100% sure if it was 2.25% per month or if it 4 it, the guarantee, as a security and they would advance on
5 was 2.5% per month, but you can check that on the 5 that. But they would visit me on a regular – irregular
6 agreement. The terms and conditions were that I would 6 basis, once a month, once every two months maybe, if they
7 service that facility on a monthly basis. It was also a 7 were up in Johannesburg more frequently. And then they
8 draw down agreement. So as I had transactions I would 8 would just check that the letter of undertakings were
9 approve them in my office and I would send the transaction 9 supported by the actual contracts and agreements that we
10 and the undertaking through and they would have a look at 10 say there were.
11 it and then they would agree on their side that they were 11 MR LAHER: In other words, they would not
12 happy to advance the funds and they would advance those 12 advance any funds to you under the Facility Agreement,
13 funds. 13 unless they were satisfied that the advance was secured?
14 Typically we would have a facility of R20 million 14 DR GRIEVE: That would be my
15 and we would limit the exposure for them to R750 000.00 per 15 understanding, ja.
16 security that was my understanding at the time. And if we 16 MR LAHER: And in each and every
17 went higher, we would just speak to them and then they 17 transaction, the draw down notice would be supported by
18 would probably ask for more information on the transaction 18 that level of information?
19 and they would either approve it or not approve it. Before 19 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
20 they advanced any monies though, they would also sign off 20 MR LAHER: And satisfaction on the part
21 on the agreement and then they would advance the monies, 21 of Presidium?
22 which I would then advance to the clients. And that’s the 22 DR GRIEVE: That would be my
23 short version of the agreement. 23 understanding, yes.
24 MR LAHER: In other words, let’s go back 24 MR LAHER: Was the Presidium facility a
25 to the first type of bridging facility you postulated at 25 long term facility – short term facility, because it seemed
Page 29 Page 31
1 to me like it was like some kind of overdraft facility? 1 had hoped for. So there were occasions where I was in
2 DR GRIEVE: I think that’s a good way to 2 breach, yes.
3 look at it, indeed. Some sort of overdraft facility and 3 MR LAHER: We probably will go into a lot
4 the initial idea would be the contract made provision for 4 more detail the next time we reconvene on the R20 million.
5 12 months with a renewable option. And then the 5 Did you utilise the full facility of R20 million from
6 understanding over the table initially was that they were 6 Presidium?
7 in for the long haul to build a big business. 7 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I did.
8 MR LAHER: So let’s now take the 8 MR LAHER: And at what point did you
9 transaction when it is finalised and registered. So, the 9 reach the capacity of the facility?
10 purchaser has been – the seller has been bridged to the 10 DR GRIEVE: At what point?
11 level required? 11 MR LAHER: At what point did you utilise
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 12 the facility in total?
13 MR LAHER: The transaction is registered. 13 DR GRIEVE: Are you talking about a date
14 The purchaser’s funds comes into the conveyancer, the 14 – a time?
15 conveyancer then pays those funds in terms of the letter of 15 MR LAHER: Yes, more or less.
16 undertaking to you? 16 DR GRIEVE: More or less in December
17 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 17 2008.
18 MR LAHER: What would you do with those 18 MR LAHER: And the facility would then be
19 funds? Would you repay Presidium or would you use those 19 repayable in accordance with its terms and conditions if it
20 funds after deducting your costs and presumably bearing in 20 was 12 months?
21 mind the return that you had to give to your other 21 DR GRIEVE: Yes, but it wasn’t 12 months
22 investors? 22 on 2008 as far as I recall. It would have been much later
23 DR GRIEVE: I would return the capital 23 on, but –
24 that I used to advance. 24 MR LAHER: Let me just maybe give you
25 MR LAHER: To Presidium? 25 this agreement. In the file of documents that we looked at
Page 30 Page 32
1 DR GRIEVE: To Presidium. And I would be 1 in the short adjournment we had just a few seconds ago, as
2 servicing the interest separately. 2 you know, we subpoenaed a representative of Presidium and
3 MR LAHER: So how did you service the 3 we received, this morning, two boxes of documents. And
4 interest, from the profit? 4 paging through, I think it was file number 1 where you
5 DR GRIEVE: From the profit portions yes, 5 would ordinarily start, I found a Facility Agreement
6 which made it tricky sometimes, because they wanted the 6 between Presidium and the Grieve Company, which is signed
7 interest serviced on a monthly basis. And I would have to 7 on the 3rd of July 2008. And it was signed in Centurion and
8 wait sometimes 90 days, 120 days to actually get the 8 I am going to get out the last page, the signature page
9 capital and the profit back to service that interest. Does 9 just to confirm that that is in fact your signature. And
10 that make sense? 10 if you could identify for Madam Commissioner who those
11 MR LAHER: Was this not the risk in the 11 witnesses are?
12 business then? 12 DR GRIEVE: The signature is mine. The
13 DR GRIEVE: That was the risk in 13 one witness is Andre Botha and I must confess I have no
14 hindsight, yes. One that I did not foresee to be a big 14 idea who the second witness is and I can’t remember who
15 problem, no, but it was. 15 that second witness is.
16 MR LAHER: When was the Presidium 16 MR LAHER: Who is Andre Botha?
17 facility repayable? 17 DR GRIEVE: He is my brother-in-law that
18 DR GRIEVE: The Presidium facility was 18 was working for me at the time.
19 repayable according to my recollection here after 12 19 MR LAHER: In what capacity was he
20 months, alright, or renewable or repayable, alternatively, 20 employed?
21 if I was in breach they could call it back sooner. 21 DR GRIEVE: He was actually employed as a
22 MR LAHER: And were you in breach? 22 project manager in a construction business that we also
23 DR GRIEVE: There was on occasion time 23 ran.
24 that I was in breach, because of their issues with interest 24 MR LAHER: Was he employed by the
25 and obviously the book might not turn as quickly as what we 25 construction business and by Grieve Company?
Page 33 Page 35
1 DR GRIEVE: No, not by Grieve Company 1 that what we don’t have is a copy of the agreement signed
2 just the construction business. 2 by both parties, but no doubt we will search in the
3 MR LAHER: Madam Commissioner, with your 3 records. I just want to get your understanding that this
4 permission, if I may just pass this document – 4 constituted the Facility Agreement to your knowledge?
5 COMMISSIONER: Yes, of course. 5 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
6 MR LAHER: At this stage – 6 MR LAHER: So this full facility was
7 COMMISSIONER: You can make a bundle 7 repayable on the 31st of July 2009?
8 later. 8 COMMISSIONER: Is that how you understood
9 MR LAHER: I am sure if I want to refer 9 Doctor?
10 to it, because it is in the file of papers. 10 DR GRIEVE: That is what the agreement
11 COMMISSIONER: No, absolutely. 11 says. We had various meetings as well and there was an
12 MR LAHER: Dr Grieve, can you identify 12 agreed further funding for December, which never realised.
13 the document that I have just given to you for the record? 13 MR LAHER: December of which year, sorry?
14 DR GRIEVE: Facility Agreement between 14 DR GRIEVE: December between the start
15 Presidium Capital Management and Grieve Bridging Solutions, 15 and the finish of this contract, so it would have been
16 as you referred to as the Grieve Company. 16 December 2008. There was an agreed further funding of R5
17 MR LAHER: Is that the Facility 17 million, which never realised and also put me in a bit of
18 Agreement? 18 bother. And the further understanding was that before the
19 DR GRIEVE: It looks like it, yes. 19 closure of this we would probably set up a new agreement in
20 MR LAHER: That we have been talking 20 a different structure with larger funding, if they were
21 about? 21 satisfied, if they were happy.
22 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 22 MR LAHER: What happened after 31st of
23 MR LAHER: And if I can help you? Not 23 July 2009?
24 that I have had a very very good or had an opportunity to 24 DR GRIEVE: We ran into trouble. We
25 study it very very carefully, but just to assist you to get 25 attempted to find replacement funding, which we believed we
Page 34 Page 36
1 your mind across this agreement. If you go to page 7 and 1 had found, which never realised. And I looked very hard to
2 look at the definition of the term “principle” in clause 2 try and find somebody to replace them and it never
3 1.1.38 that, in your mind, is that reference to the loan 3 realised. And on top of that, we suddenly sat with a
4 facility, the overdraft, the Presidium facility, whatever 4 couple of bad debts as well, which we never had in all the
5 we call it of R20 million? 5 years before that. And a mixture of that with the general
6 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 6 rise in, I am going to use that term again “dodgy
7 MR LAHER: And if you go to clause 3 on 7 attorneys” we came across a couple of fraudulent
8 page 9, can you read the content of clause 3? It is just 8 transactions that hit us quite badly. And a combination of
9 two lines long for the record? 9 that, the pressure from Presidium.
10 DR GRIEVE: “The agreement shall commence 10 They forced me to discount a part of my book and
11 on the signature date and shall terminate on the date on 11 I had very little choice with the pressure that they gave
12 which the facility outstanding is reduced zero, which date 12 me to discount a large portion of our book to Paul Marais.
13 the parties agree shall not be later than the 31st of July 13 And in the process we took quite a knock on the book with
14 2009.” 14 that move as well. And I still, at that point, had hoped
15 MR LAHER: In other words, it seems to me 15 that if the other funding had come in I could still rectify
16 that this was not an open ended facility. It had a 16 the situation. And a couple of months after that when we
17 termination date, which could not go beyond 31 July 2009, 17 realised that it wasn’t going to realise, we approached
18 unless you had brought the facility down to zero at any 18 Willem Storm to help us out with legal proceedings.
19 point in time, before 31 July 2009, am I correct? 19 MR LAHER: You said a lot of things and
20 DR GRIEVE: That should be correct. 20 let’s take it step by step.
21 MR LAHER: So apart from the nitty gritty 21 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
22 of any interest defaults, etcetera this facility came to an 22 MR LAHER: It appears to me that during
23 end on 31 July 2009? 23 the tenure Presidium Facility Agreement you were in default
24 DR GRIEVE: Okay. 24 in your interest repayment obligation?
25 MR LAHER: I know and I place on record 25 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
Page 37 Page 39
1 MR LAHER: You then defaulted on the 1 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
2 repayment obligation as at 31 July 2009? 2 MR LAHER: Can you tell Madam
3 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 3 Commissioner what your understanding of that second
4 MR LAHER: Now something must have 4 transaction was?
5 happened and it appears that something did in fact happen, 5 DR GRIEVE: I just want to confirm. This
6 because that is the indication we got from Mr Marais, who 6 is the transaction now that Paul Marais entered into?
7 was here before you. Something occurred between Presidium, 7 MR LAHER: Yes.
8 Mr Marais’ company and yourself. And I want to just get to 8 DR GRIEVE: I was given a lot of pressure
9 the bottom of what that transaction was. 9 by Presidium and their attorneys. And they were
10 DR GRIEVE: Alright. 10 threatening the company with liquidations if we did not
11 MR LAHER: It appears, if I may just take 11 enter into a transaction with Paul Marais. So I had a look
12 you step by step. 12 at the transaction of Paul Marais. He was willing to take
13 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 13 over Presidium’s part of the book.
14 MR LAHER: And you can add to whatever I 14 MR LAHER: Who introduced Paul Marais to
15 say. It appears that on default Presidium became concerned 15 you?
16 about their exposure, am I correct? 16 DR GRIEVE: I happen to have known Paul
17 DR GRIEVE: That would be a fair 17 Marais previously, because he was in similar business to
18 statement, yes. 18 myself. He used to be involved with Metal. But in terms
19 MR LAHER: And when that level of concern 19 of this transaction Singent introduced him to me for the
20 became serious, they sent a team of forensic experts to 20 purposes of the transaction. And he also went through the
21 investigate your business? 21 book. He was happy to identify the transactions that he
22 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 22 was willing to buy over and he also bought them over at a
23 MR LAHER: Can you identify the team of 23 further discount, after Presidium had hit me with a – what
24 forensic people? 24 is the word, penalty interest as well as the normal high
25 DR GRIEVE: I cannot recall their names, 25 interest. And then he still forced me to discount those
Page 38 Page 40
1 but if you offer their names to me I will tell you it was 1 transactions to him.
2 them. I just need a bit of – 2 MR LAHER: Let’s get to that transaction.
3 MR LAHER: Jaco Spies was mentioned. 3 What is the transaction that you concluded with Paul
4 DR GRIEVE: Jaco Spies is indeed and he 4 Marais’ company?
5 had a friend that was there once or twice with him, as 5 DR GRIEVE: In short, the transaction
6 well. 6 would be that he would buy over, I can’t remember the exact
7 MR LAHER: What was your assessment of 7 amount, say, R15 million it was a little less I don’t quite
8 Jaco Spies, their involvement from whom they were holding a 8 know the exact amount.
9 mandate or a brief and what is it that they found in the 9 MR LAHER: R13.7 million?
10 Grieve Company? 10 DR GRIEVE: That could be close, ja. He
11 DR GRIEVE: I think they went through 11 brought over a certain amount of the book and he would
12 everything and they came back with some harsh findings. A 12 settle Presidium with that. So he never paid me the R13.7,
13 couple of the transactions I had rolled on into new 13 he would have paid Presidium.
14 transactions after I didn’t get that extra R5 million 14 MR LAHER: And just going back to that
15 funding and they were not totally happy with that, but they 15 agreement, did you understand Presidium to hold any form of
16 could see that all the money was still there in the book. 16 security in terms of the Facility Agreement?
17 And we had to re-securitise some of those rolled on 17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 transactions and that was the short version of their 18 MR LAHER: What was that security?
19 findings. 19 DR GRIEVE: For the transactions I had on
20 MR LAHER: Whatever findings and I 20 the book that they had approved that would be the security
21 haven’t seen this forensic report and again I assume that 21 that would be my understanding. If there is some more
22 we will find it in this bundle of 12 or 10 files that were 22 semantics or small stuff that I am not familiar with, fair
23 provided this morning. Whatever findings the forensic team 23 enough, but my basic understanding is that the agreement
24 made on your business and the debtors that gave rise to a 24 would be that they would hold security on the transactions
25 secondary transaction? 25 registered to them.
Page 41 Page 43
1 MR LAHER: Are you contending that 1 DR GRIEVE: Please.
2 Presidium held a limited security over the debts that were 2 MR LAHER: Can you remember Percy
3 owing under the underlying transactions to the Grieve 3 Masinga?
4 Company? 4 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I can.
5 DR GRIEVE: I would like to do that, but 5 MR LAHER: Was he one of the debtors?
6 I would need to go and study the agreement to make sure 6 DR GRIEVE: Of Presidium, if I can use
7 that I am making the right statement. 7 such a term.
8 MR LAHER: Dr Grieve, turn to page 17 of 8 MR LAHER: Yes.
9 that agreement? 9 DR GRIEVE: Yes, he was.
10 DR GRIEVE: Okay. 10 MR LAHER: Rapivest?
11 MR LAHER: For the record we are at 11 DR GRIEVE: Yes, he was or they were.
12 clause 22, will you read out the heading of that clause 12 MR LAHER: Annatjie Botha?
13 please? 13 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
14 DR GRIEVE: “Cession of debts”. 14 MR LAHER: Ice Wind Trust?
15 MR LAHER: And will you read out the 15 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
16 definition of “ceded claims” in clause 22.1.1? 16 MR LAHER: Suzette?
17 DR GRIEVE: “It means all claims and 17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 rights of action, which the borrower now has and may at any 18 MR LAHER: Kanizay Holdings?
19 time in the future have against the debtors of the borrower 19 DR GRIEVE: To a portion.
20 in the ordinary course of the borrower’s business. And 20 MR LAHER: Delonicus.
21 which are listed in a draw down notice, provided that all 21 DR GRIEVE: Can I interrupt you there.
22 claims and rights of actions, which are listed in all draw 22 Just go back to Kanizay what was the principle capital?
23 down notices, taken together shall constitute the ceded 23 MR LAHER: R1 900 000.00.
24 claims.” 24 DR GRIEVE: Okay, I am going to say yes,
25 MR LAHER: In other words, your limited 25 but I would like to double check. There might be a small
Page 42 Page 44
1 construction is related to the debtor listed in the draw 1 portion of that that would have been other funding.
2 down notice? Is that what you are saying? 2 MR LAHER: Delonicus, sounds like a Greek
3 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 3 term D-e-l-o-n-i-c-u-s.
4 MR LAHER: So the first right of priority 4 DR GRIEVE: The majority of that list
5 that Presidium would have over the debt would be limited to 5 will be Presidium stuff, but yes.
6 the debt in respect of which the facility was advanced by 6 MR LAHER: Marais Spies?
7 Presidium in terms of the draw down notice? 7 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
8 DR GRIEVE: That is how I understand it, 8 MR LAHER: Monte Trust?
9 yes. 9 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
10 MR LAHER: Now let’s just try and fast 10 MR LAHER: This is a list that Paul
11 forward a little. We are now at the transaction involving 11 Marais gave us this morning.
12 Paul Marais’ organisation. Can you recollect the debtors 12 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
13 that you sold to Paul Marais’ company in terms of that 13 MR LAHER: Of the debtors that he
14 secondary transaction that I referred to earlier? In other 14 acquired.
15 words, to get to the point, were those debtors in fact the 15 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
16 debtors that formed the subject matter of the draw down 16 MR LAHER: For R13 700 000.00.
17 notice or were they debtors outside the draw down notice? 17 DR GRIEVE: Okay that sounds good.
18 In other words, were they debtors funded by Presidium or 18 MR LAHER: And it seems to me that the
19 were those debtors funded by, for example, my creditors’ 19 vast majority of that list form part of debts that were
20 funds or other funds that you obtained from other investors 20 created and funded through the Presidium Facility
21 into the business? 21 Agreement?
22 DR GRIEVE: That’s a difficult one to 22 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
23 answer, because I do not have the full set of records with 23 MR LAHER: In other words, Presidium held
24 me. They were taken from my offices from Paul Marais. 24 a cession over these debts?
25 MR LAHER: Maybe I can assist you? 25 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
Page 45 Page 47
1 MR LAHER: You mentioned in your papers 1 COMMISSIONER: The Paul Marais
2 that – and when I refer to “papers” I refer to your 2 transaction was done in September.
3 application brought to liquidate, not only the Grieve 3 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
4 Company, but various other companies early December – mid 4 COMMISSIONER: So at that stage that you
5 December, followed by the exchange of an application that I 5 went on oath, on affidavit, the Paul Marais transaction had
6 brought to liquidate the Grieve Company, on behalf of your 6 already been done and dusted.
7 brother. And in your application to voluntarily surrender 7 DR GRIEVE: I was referring to the
8 your estate, you refer in these papers to the cause of your 8 pressure of the 21 that I had to pay them. I wasn’t
9 financial demise as being, and I quote from your 9 referring to that I had partially paid them. That was the
10 application for voluntary surrender, “Synde Presidium On 10 pressure I had. Ja, I tried to do it. That is what we
11 Track en moes ek ? bedrag van ongeveer R21 miljoen aan 11 did, ja.
12 hulle direk oorbetaal.” Where did this figure of R21 12 COMMISSIONER: No, it is not just “ja”.
13 million come from? 13 There you go under oath, Dr Grieve; you are now under oath
14 DR GRIEVE: That was the total 14 Dr Grieve.
15 outstanding. The fact that he bought over the amount you 15 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
16 said now that close to R14 million – 16 COMMISSIONER: So I am asking you to
17 COMMISSIONER: 13.7. 17 think very clearly and carefully before you answer a
18 DR GRIEVE: 13.7 does not necessarily 18 question, because it has serious ramifications and Mr Storm
19 mean the total that was outstanding, there was still some 19 will advise you accordingly. Please proceed, Mr Laher.
20 outstanding and I could not find that money to pay 20 MR LAHER: You see we started off this
21 Presidium, not by the time lines they were giving me, no. 21 little exchange with me expressing some reservation about
22 MR LAHER: Are you suggesting in these 22 this Presidium Facility Agreement. To me, and I know I am
23 papers that Presidium claimed R21 million not that you paid 23 just a simple lawyer, no business expert, but it seemed to
24 Presidium R21 million? 24 me that this was just a hole that was getting deeper and
25 DR GRIEVE: Exactly. 25 deeper and deeper as the days were going. But what I could
Page 46 Page 48
1 MR LAHER: You see you end of here 1 not understand or what I cannot understand is that the
2 saying: “moes ek ? bedrag van ongeveer R21 miljoen aan 2 facilities that were advanced by Presidium were in
3 hulle direk oor betaal. 3 themselves guaranteed, because in terms of the draw down
4 DR GRIEVE: Ja, maar ek kon nie dit doen 4 notice you had to provide proof of the undertaking or the
5 nie. 5 guarantee or the underlying security in the transaction to
6 COMMISSIONER: No absolutely you are 6 Presidium before they agree to advance the facility under
7 making a valid point. You are saying in your – sorry to 7 the draw down notice, correct?
8 interrupt. You are saying in your application that you had 8 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
9 to pay Presidium R21 million, but that is not actually 9 MR LAHER: Now comes the 30th of July,
10 correct, because we know now that the 13.7 the M&M, Paul 10 technically speaking, if all the draw down notices as you
11 Marais’ company has now stood in the shoes in the 11 said earlier had been settled when the transactions had
12 Presidium. So you only owed, well on that figure, what is 12 been concluded, you would have had to need R20 million
13 that 7 or nearly R8 million, if I understand that 13 worth of transactions to collapse on you, for fraud, theft
14 correctly, which is not exactly what you are saying in your 14 or as you called it crooked attorneys.
15 liquidation application. 15 COMMISSIONER: Dodgy.
16 DR GRIEVE: Sure, if that is the case 16 MR LAHER: Dodgy attorneys. You actually
17 then it must be incorrect then, but that is not the 17 needed R20 million worth of transactions on 31st of July to
18 intention of what is said there. The fact was I had to at 18 collapse on your face for you to be unable to pay R20
19 that stage give them about 21, I couldn’t. Paul entered 19 million on the 31st of July. Now, when one goes a step
20 into the agreement and there was still about 6 or 7 20 further and looks at the Marais transaction, what you have
21 outstanding. 21 done is that R20 million worth of transactions “existed”
22 COMMISSIONER: Yes, but hang on. The 22 and you transferred R13.7 million worth of those
23 date of the liquidation application is nearer December I 23 transactions to Paul Marais.
24 take it. 24 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
25 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 25 MR LAHER: In other words, you
Page 49 Page 51
1 substituted Presidium or Presidium was substituted, not in 1 DR GRIEVE: That’s correct, ja.
2 your books, but discharged to the level of R13.7 million 2 MR LAHER: And Paul Marais’ entity?
3 and it became Paul Marais’ baby to go and look for R13.7 3 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
4 million. 4 MR LAHER: So we have established that
5 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 5 Presidium advanced a facility, which in a sense you
6 MR LAHER: So how then do you comment on 6 operated as an overdraft facility. And which, at the end
7 the statement, which I will read out again? “Een van my 7 of the day, I don’t think you can establish in the form of
8 grootste beleggers synde Presidium On Track en moes ek ? 8 R20 million received, Presidium here is R20 million for you
9 bedrag van ongeveer R21 miljoen aan hulle direk oor betaal. 9 in respect of those transactions that you financed in terms
10 In other words, literal translation, Presidium withdrew or 10 of the agreement. I mean we don’t have R20 million of debt
11 strictly speaking came to an end of its facility and you 11 that you can establish in favour of Presidium, correct?
12 paid R21 million to Presidium. 12 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
13 DR GRIEVE: I am not sure how to respond 13 MR LAHER: And you say that the shortfall
14 to that. 14 is represented by other dodgy attorneys’ deals and defaults
15 MR LAHER: You don’t have an answer to 15 that you experienced in that period?
16 that? 16 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
17 DR GRIEVE: No. 17 MR LAHER: We have also established that
18 MR LAHER: Let’s go to the next part of 18 Presidium have some kind of cession, not some kind, but
19 that paragraph. “Hierdie knou” in other words a dent “in 19 Presidium held a cession over all the transactions that
20 my kontantvloei van die besigheid het tot gevolg gehad dat 20 they financed.
21 die besigheid nie verder voort kon gaan nie. In other 21 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
22 words, a R21 million debt in your cash flow resulted in the 22 MR LAHER: A list of which we read out.
23 collapse of the company. Now I can, to a degree, 23 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
24 understand R13.7 million because that has gone out of your 24 MR LAHER: The nine debtors.
25 coffers. 25 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
Page 50 Page 52
1 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 1 MR LAHER: And therefore in the
2 MR LAHER: What happened to the other 2 transaction that you concluded for the assignment of those
3 R8.5 million, the difference between R21 million and the 3 rights to those debtors to Paul Marais’ organisation, Paul
4 R13.7 million? 4 Marais’ organisation stepped into the shoes of Presidium
5 DR GRIEVE: There were a string of 5 insofar as that security is concerned.
6 discounting charges, a couple of bad debts and a specific 6 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
7 firm that really hurt me with quite a large amount of 7 MR LAHER: So instead of Presidium
8 money. 8 locking the door and going to each of those debtors, Paul
9 MR LAHER: And you will be able to, in 9 Marais is now collecting those debtors?
10 due course, in engagements with us, through your attorney, 10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
11 explain where that other R8.5 million odd is? 11 MR LAHER: And he is left with the
12 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 12 burden?
13 MR LAHER: You see because I just and if 13 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
14 I am wrong, please tell me. I looked at this and said 14 MR LAHER: And the Grieve Company has
15 well, you paid R21 million to Presidium that is clearly not 15 reduced the Presidium debt from R20 million odd to R7
16 what happened. You never physically paid R21 million to 16 million odd?
17 Presidium? 17 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
18 DR GRIEVE: I never physically paid the 18 MR LAHER: Now somewhere in your papers,
19 R13.7 myself either. 19 and forgive me, I cannot find the exact reference to it,
20 MR LAHER: Well in a sense you did – 20 but somewhere and maybe it is in engagements I had with
21 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 21 your attorney and he can correct me as well. But somewhere
22 MR LAHER: - because you transferred your 22 we spoke about this constituting some sort of preference
23 right, title and interest to those debts. 23 that Presidium has received a preference in respect of its
24 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 24 claim, ahead of other creditors.
25 MR LAHER: To M&M? 25 COMMISSIONER: Mr Storm?
Page 53 Page 55
1 MR STORM: I don’t think he can answer 1 High Court, am I correct?
2 that. I think that is a legal question. We did discuss 2 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
3 it. 3 MR LAHER: And Dr Grieve thereafter
4 COMMISSIONER: Oh I see. 4 placed the Grieve Company under voluntary liquidation. And
5 MR STORM: We discussed it. 5 an order for the voluntary liquidation, by way of a special
6 COMMISSIONER: I see. 6 resolution, which was registered on the 18th of December
7 MR LAHER: Madam Commissioner, forgive 7 2009 was effectively obtained, not an order but a
8 me, but we will come back to that point at the next 8 registration of a special resolution was secured on the
9 hearing. But I, unless it is a discussion that is so 9 18th of December 2009. I then, representing Dr Grieve’s
10 prevalent in my mind, but I have actually also seen it in a 10 brother, Mr William Lesley Grieve, a citizen and I think a
11 written communication, which I have not been able to lay my 11 resident now of New Zealand, then launched an application,
12 hands on between yesterday and this morning. 12 effectively to cut a long story short for the conversion of
13 COMMISSIONER: Okay, no, that is fine. 13 the voluntary winding up into a compulsory winding up. And
14 MR LAHER: In preparation. 14 an order making the liquidation compulsory liquidation
15 COMMISSIONER: Just on that point, Mr 15 retrospective to the date of registration of the voluntary
16 Storm, there are legal, obviously legal implications but if 16 special resolution.
17 you take it just on the facts, where – let’s just take 17 MR STORM: If I can just interrupt? That
18 someone around the table. We have the Fourie’s there, 18 application, Mr Laher, refers to us, an application for
19 where Presidium received an amount and the Fourie’s never 19 setting aside the special resolution. After he consulted
20 received an amount, just on the factual aspects. Presidium 20 with his counsel and it was decided we both want the same
21 was preferred above the Fourie’s. 21 thing, because we all anticipated enquiries in terms of
22 MR STORM: No, I agree. 22 Section 417 and 418. And I had a draft order and that
23 COMMISSIONER: But the legal implications 23 whole application was then settled by the draft order,
24 I agree, Dr Grieve, cannot be able to comment on that. 24 which we had made an order –
25 MR LAHER: Thank you, Madam Commissioner. 25 COMMISSIONER: Order of court.
Page 54 Page 56
1 UNKNOWN MALE: On that note, Madam 1 MR STORM: Order of court.
2 Commissioner, I would just like to address the audience. 2 COMMISSIONER: Oh I see.
3 We unfortunately have to excuse ourselves from the further 3 MR STORM: So the application was for
4 discussions. I have spoken with Mr Laher and he indicated 4 setting aside, I said well, you know, we both want the same
5 that it would be okay, so without further ado, would like 5 thing we can just settle it while we have a draft order,
6 to excuse ourselves. 6 which we did.
7 COMMISSIONER: Thank you very much for 7 COMMISSIONER: Okay.
8 your time, you may be excused. 8 MR STORM: And that’s what happened.
9 MR LAHER: Madam Commissioner, I just 9 COMMISSIONER: So the conclusion stays
10 need to get some background so that you understand the next 10 the same on the date of the stamp of the Registrar.
11 line. 11 MR STORM: Exactly.
12 COMMISSIONER: Yes thank you. 12 COMMISSIONER: Okay.
13 MR LAHER: I am not going to be much 13 MR LAHER: And the only significance of
14 longer. 14 sketching that background is to start just with a few
15 COMMISSIONER: No, that’s fine. 15 questions on a document that was attached to the, let’s
16 MR LAHER: What actually happened in the 16 call it the setting aside application.
17 sequence of events leading up to the liquidation of the 17 COMMISSIONER: Thank you, that is fine.
18 Grieve company and my understanding is the following, Mr 18 MR LAHER: Dr Grieve, did you or I assume
19 Storm, acting on behalf of Dr Grieve, launched a single 19 that you were provided with a copy of the application that
20 application in the Pretoria High Court for the simultaneous 20 was brought by your brother in the Pretoria High Court for
21 orders to be granted against various Dr Grieve related 21 the setting aside and the conversion of the voluntarily
22 entities, one of them being the Grieve Company. And 22 winding up?
23 placing all those entities into liquidation and placing a 23 DR GRIEVE: I don’t think. I don’t
24 trust that was operated by Dr Grieve under sequestration. 24 recollect it. I actually can’t answer that, because I
25 That application was dismissed or refused by the Pretoria 25 can’t remember. I might have got a first page or I got
Page 57 Page 59
1 something that said it was done, but I don’t think I got a 1 MR LAHER: But it is your brother’s
2 full document. 2 version that the investments that were secured after were
3 MR LAHER: Right, anyway, in that 3 clearly premised on this information document that you
4 application Annexure C and I will give you a copy in a 4 provided to him.
5 minute. Annexure C is a very confidential investment 5 DR GRIEVE: Unfortunately that would be
6 proposal dated September 2009 that is not signed by anybody 6 correct, ja.
7 and I will ask you if you had prepared this particular 7 MR LAHER: And this information document
8 document. Do you want to have a look at it just for a few 8 is dated and prepared in September 2009, after Presidium
9 seconds? 9 has pulled the plug on you, so to speak?
10 DR GRIEVE: Just colour it in? Where is 10 DR GRIEVE: It was prepared probably
11 this from? 11 before that, but ja it was dated after that. I can’t
12 COMMISSIONER: This is the application 12 remember exact dates and time lines, sorry.
13 that your brother brought that your attorney and Mr Laher 13 MR LAHER: And by the time this document
14 has just been discussing. 14 is prepared and further funding is secured from your
15 MR LAHER: It was attached to the 15 brother, the business had already collapsed?
16 application. I think the first question is whether 16 DR GRIEVE: He was aware of the pressure
17 prepared this document? 17 from Presidium. And the business had not collapsed; we had
18 DR GRIEVE: I want to have a close look, 18 other funding that was supposed to have come through as
19 partially yes, 90% of it yes. 19 well, which he was also aware of. And he was privileged to
20 MR LAHER: Who else would have had a hand 20 that information too. So to look at that document in its
21 in the application, in the document? 21 own wouldn’t be fair.
22 DR GRIEVE: My brother. 22 MR LAHER: But in this document, and you
23 MR LAHER: Which brother? 23 can take the time to go through it, but I could not find
24 DR GRIEVE: William Lesley Grieve. 24 any reference to the strain on the business put by
25 MR LAHER: He would have prepared the 25 Presidium or the strain on the business put by dodgy deals
Page 58 Page 60
1 information? 1 from attorneys or the strain on the business put by
2 DR GRIEVE: Actually in this specific 2 defaulting transactions.
3 document. I hear where you say it is coming from, this is 3 DR GRIEVE: There wouldn’t be such
4 something I put together to tell him what we are doing. 4 information in that. The intent of that document would
5 Okay, it is not a contract. He just wanted to know what 5 have been a marketing document and that was obviously
6 are we doing and I prepared something like this. He looked 6 before the pressure was as big as it was, irrespective of
7 at it and said no, we must add more grass, we must do this, 7 the date on there.
8 we must do that and he helped me colour this thing in. So 8 MR LAHER: The intent of the document was
9 yes, I know this document but it is not something that 9 clearly to demonstrate that the business of the company was
10 necessarily was open for all to see. But it is something 10 flourishing and was in fact in a growth phase. And all
11 that him and I actually worked on together, although most 11 that it required to achieve those levels of growth was
12 of the input would be my own. 12 additional investment that’s how I read this document.
13 MR LAHER: Yes, the financial input in 13 COMMISSIONER: Can you agree with that
14 that document would be yours? 14 statement?
15 DR GRIEVE: Mostly yes. 15 DR GRIEVE: That is probably what that
16 MR LAHER: And this document was used to 16 document would represent, yes.
17 secure investments from, inter alia, your brother? 17 COMMISSIONER: Well not probably. You
18 DR GRIEVE: That is a difficult one to 18 are the author, 90% of that document you authored, so do
19 call, because I think we had already secured the 19 you agree with it or not?
20 investments before we put this thing together, agreed on 20 DR GRIEVE: No, I don’t agree with the
21 it. I am not sure. 21 content, no.
22 MR LAHER: There were some investments 22 MR LAHER: We are going to have the
23 that came in before and there were some investments that 23 opportunity to – you don’t agree with the content?
24 came in after. 24 DR GRIEVE: Although I put most of it
25 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 25 there yes, it doesn’t mean that it is accurate, no.
Page 61 Page 63
1 MR LAHER: I just want you to have an 1 COMMISSIONER: I will make that order.
2 opportunity to go through this document and if you don’t 2 MR LAHER: Through the – I am not sure
3 have a copy we will oblige and give you a copy - 3 what you have in mind, Madam Commissioner, but through
4 DR GRIEVE: I would need a copy, because 4 either the liquidator or Mr Storm that a copy be provided.
5 I do not have a copy. 5 COMMISSIONER: Yes.
6 MR LAHER: Of these proceedings, but the 6 MR LAHER: The quicker we get a copy the
7 document in one section on page 12 of the document says, 7 better it is for us.
8 “Even Investec is willing to provide funding, a return can 8 COMMISSIONER: Absolutely. Can we have
9 be given at 15% per annum. And further margin is created 9 that agreement within a week?
10 to increase profitability for the company.” What’s your 10 DR GRIEVE: I will see if I can find it.
11 comment on that? 11 I don’t have any records with me, because those records had
12 DR GRIEVE: That would be ideal yes, and 12 been lifted out of my office by Paul Marais, all my files,
13 I was still hoping that I could pull in sufficient funding 13 and every single last file is in the possession of Paul
14 to make that realise, which never happened so that is 14 Marais. So a lot of these dates and stuff that you have
15 wrong. 15 agreements with that have been provided to you by Paul
16 MR LAHER: September 2008. 16 Marais or wherever, I don’t even have a copy of anymore.
17 DR GRIEVE: I was still hoping in 17 So it does make things a little bit tricky, because they
18 September to pull in that funding, before we applied for 18 literally emptied my whole office. So I am a little bit in
19 that liquidation. I had an agreement signed by a potential 19 the dark on time lines, but the essence is in the memory
20 alternate funder on the table and – 20 and we will get it sorted and I will find a copy of that
21 COMMISSIONER: Who is this anonymous 21 agreement somewhere.
22 funder, what’s his – who are they? 22 COMMISSIONER: Okay, then you can just
23 DR GRIEVE: It is an Adv Derek de 23 provide it to Mr Storm and he can provide it to Mr Laher.
24 Villiers and I put a copy of that on record, I am not sure 24 DR GRIEVE: I will.
25 where, I think with Dewald as well, Breytenbach, the 25 COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
Page 62 Page 64
1 trustees. And I had a firm belief that that would have 1 MR LAHER: Just on Paul Marais, what is
2 realised. And that would have rectified the situation and 2 your assessment on Mr Marais’ impression this morning that
3 given me an opportunity to trade out of the strain, so that 3 the debtors that he purchased for R13.7 million are –
4 would have been the ideal, yes. And that never happened 4 COMMISSIONER: Dodgy.
5 and – 5 MR LAHER: For want of a better term, to
6 MR LAHER: What was Dr de Villiers' 6 keep the terminology standard this morning. Or in fact
7 background and intent? 7 wholly uncollectable, is his terminology.
8 DR GRIEVE: He is an advocate. He is in 8 COMMISSIONER: He has actually had to
9 property and he introduced himself as somebody that is also 9 spend money according to him.
10 into funding and finance. And he represented at least one 10 DR GRIEVE: That is very possible. I
11 fund and he was busy setting up another fund and he was 11 have also, from the same Paul Marais, this morning outside,
12 willing to step in and take the place of Presidium. And 12 heard that he has referred to a few other people that have
13 that was what we were hoping for and he actually signed 13 been put in the same spot as myself. And it seems to be an
14 such an agreement, which I have provided copies to, I think 14 industry disaster in the field, the likes of his previous
15 to Willem or to Dewald, one of the two of them. And I 15 company Metal had to write off a couple of hundred million
16 should be able to find another copy of that. And that is 16 and Allegro, which is in a similar space had to write off a
17 the basis of why I prepared such an agreement, because I 17 couple of hundred million. Five or six different large
18 still believed I could get that funding in and restore the 18 bridging houses folded and unfortunately I am one of them.
19 business at that stage, which unfortunately never 19 And things in the property market were running smoothly we
20 materialised. 20 had, as we quoted earlier, up until was it 2008 I said we
21 MR LAHER: That is a very important 21 had no bad debts and then suddenly 2009 when the property
22 agreement. 22 market went south, everything else just went south and a
23 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I have – 23 lot of us, including myself, just ended up with bad deals,
24 MR LAHER: We would like to have a copy 24 which previously came from the same attorneys, no problem.
25 of that agreement. 25 And now suddenly these deals are going bad, so it is
Page 65 Page 67
1 horrible, but ja, I can actually believe it. If those 1 was one or two occasions where he called me about
2 deals take too long to materialise the problems happen and 2 something, because one of the – the Percy Masinga guy he
3 it is unfortunately, I mean, I got hurt badly with that, 3 was harassing us because Paul was harassing him to get the
4 but I know it is not just my company. 4 money out. And he started to send us all sorts of weird
5 MR LAHER: But you said earlier today 5 threatening e-mails or SMS’ and stuff. And I asked him
6 that all those transactions were supported by underlying 6 just leave me alone and I have sold it off, it belongs to
7 guarantees? 7 Paul, Paul will collect it. And Paul phoned me and said
8 DR GRIEVE: Exactly, term it a letter of 8 ja, I shouldn’t interfere with anything, I shouldn’t even
9 undertaking. Sorry if I am interrupting you, but I think 9 answer him, which I then obviously didn’t do. So on that
10 there might be a slight difference technically, but a 10 level yes, but not to assist, per se, with the collection.
11 letter of undertaking from the attorney. 11 I gave him maybe, after the sale, I had to obviously sign a
12 MR LAHER: Let’s put it this way, they 12 string of letters on each transaction, which say you know
13 are relatively secure? 13 this has now been sold this guy will contact you, so at
14 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 14 that level, yes. But not at a level where I literally had
15 MR LAHER: How is that all R13.7 million 15 to go and do the dirty work or get involved in litigation
16 and I think we can safely assume the full amount, has 16 or collections, no.
17 suddenly turned to be so sour and rotten? 17 MR LAHER: Let’s just get back to this
18 DR GRIEVE: The best answer I can give 18 proposal. In that investment proposal and let’s not link
19 there is that we are sitting in a situation where people 19 it to your brother, let’s link it to me, for example.
20 went into these deals, certain guarantees had been issued 20 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
21 by banks and attorneys gave their letters of undertaking 21 MR LAHER: I have now been placed in
22 then those terms and conditions got changed in that 22 possession with this document and in it you go at great
23 process. And either a bank decided to withdraw funding, 23 lengths to out line how secure your business model is this
24 which we had for the first time in the history, we had a 24 is the difficulty I am having Dr Grieve.
25 couple of banks that had already issued guarantees then 25 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
Page 66 Page 68
1 suddenly wanted further information and started to pull 1 MR LAHER: You say that this is very
2 back on funding, which we had never seen before. Standard 2 secure, the business model is tight. In September 2009 you
3 Bank was one such bank specifically. I actually 3 have already got a developing history, short as it is, from
4 experienced it personally as well, because in the other 4 January 2009 to September of defaulting transactions, dodgy
5 business we had, which was a development business we had a 5 attorneys, and deals falling flat in the middle or at the
6 buyer from Standard Bank and suddenly his finance got 6 time after you have already advanced monies to bridge the
7 withdrawn after the guarantees had been issued. And we 7 deals. And you go out and you set out to potential
8 actually saw quite a lot of that happen at that period of 8 investors how secure a business model is this. In
9 time. I can actually understand that a large portion of 9 hindsight do you think that that was really good and driven
10 that might not be collectable. 10 with intent to place an investor with the security that I
11 Some of the attorneys might have legitimately 11 am going to invest my hard earned money into this company,
12 issued letters of undertaking based on guarantees from 12 let alone the emotional issues involved with a brother and
13 banks, which were withdrawn. And some others would have 13 I am going to come out with this money? What are you
14 given those letters of undertaking maybe not having the 14 comments on that?
15 full authority to actually to do so and that is where we 15 DR GRIEVE: I should never have done
16 refer to the dodgy undertakings. 16 that. And like I said earlier, at that point in time he
17 MR LAHER: Were you ever approached by 17 was aware of the pressure from Presidium. He actually came
18 Paul to assist in the collection of these debtors? 18 into South Africa and I explained to him that –
19 DR GRIEVE: Not – 19 MR LAHER: I don’t want to focus on your
20 MR LAHER: Since the liquidation of the 20 brother.
21 Grieve Company? 21 DR GRIEVE: Alright.
22 DR GRIEVE: No – no. In terms of the 22 MR LAHER: I want to keep it –
23 stuff he bought over? 23 DR GRIEVE: I wouldn’t have given that to
24 MR LAHER: Yes. 24 you to be honest. I gave it to my brother.
25 DR GRIEVE: Not really. I think there 25 MR LAHER: And you prepared this document
Page 69 Page 71
1 solely for your brother? 1 MR LAHER: I have his affidavit here.
2 DR GRIEVE: If somebody wanted to know 2 DR GRIEVE: Yes, but he did provide those
3 what I was doing I might show them that document, but that 3 fundings, ja. I can’t give you the exact –
4 was prepared for him and he said he might find somebody 4 MR LAHER: All those fundings?
5 that would be interested in helping us if we were 5 DR GRIEVE: More or less.
6 interested and that never came to fruition. But he helped 6 MR LAHER: All those fundings? It seems
7 me prepare it, because he said he likes what we are doing 7 to me were advanced before this investment proposal had
8 and yes, in retrospect hindsight is easy. We were not 8 even been prepared. And they were advanced, as he says,
9 aware of the full magnitude of the damage coming down upon 9 they were advanced more or less on the same kind of
10 us at that point in time. So I regret ever taking a cent 10 representations, representations that this is a very secure
11 from my brother. And I regret having sent that document to 11 business, you are going to have no sleepless nights once
12 him. But the fact is I did. 12 you put the money. It is so tight and secure and you are
13 MR LAHER: You know you go on elsewhere 13 looking for an investment in September 2009 of R100
14 in the document to say, “This is an opportunity that an 14 million. But, in essence, the investment put in by your
15 investor has to earn good constant secure return on their 15 brother predated this investment proposal and was made
16 money, without having any sleepless nights.” 16 against the assurance that the investment was more or less
17 DR GRIEVE: And that was the case for 17 secure, which has clearly not turned out to be the case.
18 many years, but no, not in 2000 and – 18 What have you got to say to that?
19 MR LAHER: In September 2009 that was 19 DR GRIEVE: Well I regret having sent him
20 clearly not the case. 20 that in hindsight. And it is easy in hindsight –
21 DR GRIEVE: No, it wasn’t. But that was 21 MR LAHER: No, that is not the document
22 – 22 that I am talking about sorry Dr Grieve.
23 MR LAHER: Sleepless nights have 23 DR GRIEVE: Okay.
24 obviously – 24 MR LAHER: That is not the document that
25 DR GRIEVE: But that was not the intent 25 I am talking about, but the basis, the representations that
Page 70 Page 72
1 for anybody else really to see that, not from my side. 1 were made by you to elicit the investments that were made
2 MR LAHER: You see your brother only came 2 by your brother, were they correct that this was a secure
3 to South Africa around the time of his birthday and I am 3 business your return was intact?
4 sure you are aware of the date of his birthday, around the 4 DR GRIEVE: When I initially started
5 end of August. 5 speaking to him yes they were correct. And I am confident
6 DR GRIEVE: Earlier, beginning of August, 6 that they were still correct at that stage. The trouble
7 10th of August. 7 really only started in the middle of the year. We had one
8 MR LAHER: The 28th of August – 8 guy that went insolvent January - February of that year and
9 DR GRIEVE: No, that is mine. 9 we managed to still get some of that money out of his
10 MR LAHER: Your birthday, sorry. 10 estate. And the drama really only came later on in that
11 DR GRIEVE: Ja that is mine. 11 year, so I would say with the first two investments I am
12 MR LAHER: 28th of August 2009. He came 12 fairly confident that that representation was still close
13 out after many years to spend the time with you. 13 to the truth, alright. And then, ja, we started to pick up
14 DR GRIEVE: Ja, and he asked me to 14 trouble from July really and Presidium gave – April we
15 prepare something like that for him and he put input into 15 skipped a payment, but we still had enough interest being
16 it, ja. 16 earned, if I can use the term “interest” loosely,
17 MR LAHER: That is not what your brother 17 discounting charges being earned on the book that was
18 says. In April your brother had already advanced a certain 18 there.
19 amount of money, so he could not have advanced this on the 19 And I still felt okay, we might miss a payment,
20 strength of the September investment proposal. In April he 20 but if this one comes in, we can come up with the money.
21 had already advanced £100 000.00 through his bank account 21 And in the interim we can see Presidium is getting a bit
22 in the United Kingdom that advance was made on the 14th of 22 uncomfortable so we will go and approach some other people,
23 April. He then advanced further amounts £200 000.00 on the 23 see if we can replace their funding with a more user
24 5th of June and £350 000.00 on the 2nd of September. 24 friendly cheaper type funding. And we believed we had
25 MR STORM: Is he coming to testify? 25 achieved that, which we in hindsight didn’t. And even that
Page 73 Page 75
1 thing, I mean, I still believed that we could pull it out 1 and everything that was there and work through it and do
2 the fire up until August, maybe even early September, I 2 their process. And unfortunately before they went and
3 still believed that we could fix this. And then we 3 collected it, Gateway and Paul Marais were involved in
4 realised we were struggling – 4 emptying the office, exactly the precise detail I don’t
5 MR LAHER: I put it to you did you not go 5 know, but they literally took everything in those offices
6 out to your brother and other investors at that time in 6 and that is why I referred to, I am not necessarily in
7 order to bridge the gap that was looming with Presidium? 7 possession of every document I should be in possession of.
8 DR GRIEVE: I would have tried to do that 8 MR LAHER: Where was the Grieve Company’s
9 yes. 9 bank account held?
10 MR LAHER: Were you not just borrowing 10 DR GRIEVE: The bridging company was with
11 from Peter to pay Paul? 11 Standard Bank and ABSA Bank, but most of the transactions
12 DR GRIEVE: I don’t like to put it that 12 were run from Standard Bank.
13 way no; I was trying to find a replacement funder that was 13 MR LAHER: Which branches?
14 my goal that was my intent. So I wasn’t trying to borrow 14 DR GRIEVE: Centurion and Centurion.
15 from Peter to pay Paul, I was trying to find a replacement 15 MR LAHER: Do you have details of the
16 funder and that was what I was ultimately trying to 16 account numbers or can you memorise them?
17 achieve. In hindsight that did not realise and – 17 DR GRIEVE: Not anymore, but what I can
18 MR LAHER: Did you use your brother’s 18 do with ABSA 4061313082, let me must write that down. What
19 money for bridging transactions? 19 did I just say?
20 DR GRIEVE: Some of it yes. And some of 20 COMMISSIONER: You said 406.
21 it I did use to pay Presidium. 21 DR GRIEVE: Now I am confused.
22 MR LAHER: And how will we be able to – 22 MR LAHER: Can you provide this detail
23 DR GRIEVE: That is going to be very 23 together with that –
24 difficult to do. I mean – 24 DR GRIEVE: I can give you contact
25 MR LAHER: Where are the bank statements 25 telephone numbers and names.
Page 74 Page 76
1 of the Grieve Company? 1 MR LAHER: With the de Villiers
2 DR GRIEVE: If Dewald doesn’t have them 2 agreement?
3 Paul Marais has them. 3 DR GRIEVE: No, the de Villiers agreement
4 MR LAHER: Why would Paul Marais take 4 is easy.
5 possession of the bank statements of the Grieve Company, he 5 MR LAHER: No, but can you provide the
6 only has a right to the debtors? 6 details of the account number with that agreement later
7 DR GRIEVE: I said this earlier. He 7 next week?
8 removed everything from my office. 8 COMMISSIONER: Hang on, we have got
9 MR LAHER: Is the theft that you spoke 9 something here.
10 about or is this – 10 DR GRIEVE: That is the one, but I mean
11 DR GRIEVE: There were two sets of 11 we speak to the bank and they will give us the other one,
12 thefts. 12 so I am sure we can get the account numbers.
13 MR LAHER: Yes. 13 COMMISSIONER: Okay, can we have that,
14 DR GRIEVE: There was, in December, a 14 can we just have a copy of that?
15 literal break in where they entered through the ceiling 15 MR LAHER: Commissioner, I won’t get the
16 boards and the roof through outside, they went through the 16 bank to provide me any details unless I give them the
17 ceiling and they removed some coffee machines and one or 17 specific account numbers.
18 two computers and printers and that was fairly limited 18 COMMISSIONER: Absolutely.
19 damage, because obviously they couldn’t get anything too 19 DR GRIEVE: I don’t have a problem, I am
20 big through the ceiling boards. And I, at that stage, had 20 just not quite sure where I am going to find it, but I am
21 already started the liquidation process, so it was my 21 sure I will be able to make a plan.
22 assumption that I didn’t really have any rights to even 22 COMMISSIONER: Well I just have a huge
23 that property and I was waiting for Dewald and other people 23 problem with what you have just told us, if that is
24 to be appointed. And I would assume that they would then 24 correct. Who is Gateway by the way?
25 go and empty and collect all the documents and furniture 25 DR GRIEVE: Gateway was the owner of the
Page 77 Page 79
1 – 1 DR GRIEVE: Pastel, but I wasn’t so
2 COMMISSIONER: The landlord? 2 aufait with that, so I had bookkeepers and I must confess
3 DR GRIEVE: The landlord, ja. 3 in the last year we had a disaster with bookkeepers, we
4 COMMISSIONER: But that still does not – 4 went through one every three months, so how accurate they
5 I mean the landlord still has to work through Mr 5 are is going to be a tough call, but the banks accounts are
6 Breytenbach. He can’t go on his own steam and remove and I 6 also there so.
7 mean Paul Marais, what locus standi does he have to the 7 COMMISSIONER: And do we have the Pastel
8 books and records of the Grieve Company? So I mean he 8 software – have you got the Pastel software accounting
9 needs to address us on that. 9 system?
10 DR GRIEVE: Okay, the ABSA account number 10 DR GRIEVE: No, let me just make sure. I
11 from Bridging Company is 4064367327 that is the ABSA 11 had computers that were stolen.
12 account. The Standard Bank account I will have to try and 12 COMMISSIONER: Oh yes.
13 get for you. 13 DR GRIEVE: By a criminal.
14 MR LAHER: And these were the only two 14 COMMISSIONER: Yes.
15 accounts that were operated by the Grieve Company? 15 DR GRIEVE: Activity and that was one of
16 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 16 the computers that were stolen is the one that had the
17 MR LAHER: You had no savings account 17 Pastel on.
18 linked – 18 COMMISSIONER: And the backups did you
19 DR GRIEVE: No savings account linked. 19 have backups?
20 MR LAHER: To the cheque account? 20 DR GRIEVE: We have backups as well.
21 DR GRIEVE: No – no, but originally when 21 COMMISSIONER: Ja.
22 we did our application, you will have to help me with the 22 DR GRIEVE: And I am not quite sure where
23 terminology there. We wanted to do a – what do you call it 23 those are backups are. Paul Marais may have them, because
24 a corporate veil? 24 I had cupboards in the office and unfortunately the backups
25 MR LAHER: Yes. 25 are kept on site.
Page 78 Page 80
1 COMMISSIONER: Pierce the corporate veil. 1 COMMISSIONER: Okay.
2 DR GRIEVE: Pierce the corporate veil, 2 DR GRIEVE: I didn’t expect a burn or a
3 because if I was running low on cash flow I might take 3 “this” or a “that”, so I am not quite sure where we are
4 money from my private account and use that to service the 4 going to find those backups. What I might have as well, I
5 interest with Presidium. So there will be a lot of cross 5 might have access to older backups as well that might just
6 transfers that you will see, but I mean my private accounts 6 be six months or nine months’ old.
7 are open to scrutiny as much as you like as well. I mean 7 COMMISSIONER: Well anything you can
8 it is – 8 assist Mr Storm –
9 COMMISSIONER: And just on that point, 9 DR GRIEVE: I will just see what I can
10 sorry to interrupt you, the other entities was that also 10 find.
11 done by you? If the one, say a CC, was flush with money 11 COMMISSIONER: Okay thank you, please
12 and you needed to pay Presidium would you then transfer 12 continue.
13 money from the CC into the Grieve Company? 13 MR LAHER: Who are the contact persons at
14 DR GRIEVE: Not so much from a CC. I 14 the bank ABSA contact?
15 didn’t have accounts for all the companies. 15 DR GRIEVE: May I switch my phone on?
16 COMMISSIONER: Hypothetically? 16 COMMISSIONER: When we stand down.
17 DR GRIEVE: Ultimately that would be an 17 MR LAHER: Okay, we will take that
18 accurate statement. I might say okay this CC has a bit of 18 information, if you have got both those contact details –
19 spare cash, so I transfer it to myself, private individual 19 DR GRIEVE: Or actually maybe out of the
20 and then I would support one of the other entities with it, 20 head, you can just phone. The Standard Bank guys have
21 so that I could try and keep the bookkeeping a little bit 21 changed managers so many times I can’t tell you anymore,
22 smoother, so that I would have a loan account with each 22 but at ABSA it was a guy called Chris Joubert initially and
23 company. So indirectly yes. 23 he also just left. I was going through these bank managers
24 COMMISSIONER: Okay and what software did 24 like crazy. Chris Joubert was in charge most of the time
25 you use to run the books and records? 25 at ABSA Centurion, there was another guy that took over
Page 81 Page 83
1 from him and I can’t remember his name either – Andre de 1 whether the entire amount received from your brother was
2 Jager, there it is, Andre de Jager at ABSA Centurion. He 2 used for the benefit of the Grieve Company?
3 was the one contact. And the guy at Standard Bank I am not 3 DR GRIEVE: That would not be totally
4 quite sure who was the latest manager. 4 correct, no.
5 MR LAHER: And can you remember where you 5 MR LAHER: In other words, some of the
6 brother’s money was paid into, which account? 6 money was used outside the scope and objectives of the
7 DR GRIEVE: Standard Bank, I think that 7 Grieve Company?
8 might have been paid into the incorporated account and not 8 DR GRIEVE: Yes and he was aware of that.
9 the specific company in question’s account, I can’t 9 MR LAHER: He is aware of it?
10 remember. 10 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
11 COMMISSIONER: Okay, explain that? 11 MR LAHER: And why do you say that?
12 DR GRIEVE: We did transfers and money 12 DR GRIEVE: Well, with all the promises
13 landed up in the incorporated account when the banks paid 13 of funding that we had we made a deposit on a house as well
14 it out, it is as easy as that. 14 that we were intending to buy.
15 MR LAHER: The exchange control approvals 15 MR LAHER: Yes.
16 were all given in the name of the Grieve Company? 16 DR GRIEVE: And he was happy to advance
17 DR GRIEVE: Ja, I think that we made a 17 me money for the deposit on that house too. It was a large
18 bit of a mistake on the account numbers. So I am not 18 deposit.
19 saying that it wasn’t paid to the Grieve Company at all, 19 MR LAHER: And what has happened to that
20 but it was paid to, ultimately to me and it belonged to the 20 transaction?
21 Grieve Company, so that is true. It just didn’t land up 21 DR GRIEVE: Well obviously it hasn’t
22 there. 22 realised.
23 MR LAHER: So if it was paid into Grieve 23 MR LAHER: And what’s happened to the
24 Inc it was transferred out of Grieve Inc into the Grieve 24 deposit?
25 Company? 25 DR GRIEVE: The money has been lost.
Page 82 Page 84
1 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 1 MR LAHER: You mean forfeited?
2 MR LAHER: So we would see those – we 2 DR GRIEVE: Indeed.
3 would see the – 3 MR LAHER: To the seller?
4 DR GRIEVE: There were three accounts, if 4 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
5 I may just interrupt and it will flow through one of those 5 MR LAHER: Who is this transaction with?
6 three. It would either be Incorporated, which was the 6 DR GRIEVE: I don’t quite understand?
7 building company or it would be in the Bridging or it will 7 MR LAHER: With whom did you conclude
8 be in the private cheque account with Standard Bank, one of 8 this transaction?
9 those three. 9 COMMISSIONER: Ja, who is the seller?
10 MR LAHER: Sorry, what is the second one 10 DR GRIEVE: I would have to go and try
11 the ABSA account? 11 and find some names there.
12 DR GRIEVE: No, no, my brother’s money 12 MR LAHER: Have you got a copy of the
13 didn’t flow through ABSA at all. 13 sale agreement?
14 COMMISSIONER: The building? 14 DR GRIEVE: No, that would have been left
15 DR GRIEVE: The building company. 15 in the office as well, but I can definitely find the
16 MR LAHER: Oh I see. 16 attorney that was at least dealing with the transaction I
17 DR GRIEVE: The building company, my 17 have that number on my phone. So even if I don’t have a
18 private account and the Grieve Company as you referred to 18 copy of the sale agreement, I am sure we can get it.
19 it. 19 COMMISSIONER: Or the estate agent.
20 MR LAHER: And immediately the monies 20 DR GRIEVE: Ja, no, the estate agent’s
21 were received they went into the Grieve Company? 21 wife – the estate agent is a lady and it is her husband who
22 DR GRIEVE: I can’t recall if that would 22 is the attorney, an Etienne Naude.
23 be the exact case. They may have gone into my private 23 MR LAHER: In Pretoria?
24 account and to the Grieve Company, a bit of both possibly. 24 DR GRIEVE: Yes.
25 MR LAHER: And can you tell us today 25 MR LAHER: And what deposit did you pay?
Page 85 Page 87
1 DR GRIEVE: Now you have got me again, I 1 Interest and directorship in have all been liquidated and
2 am not 100% sure. It was one point something million. 2 sequestrated, ja.
3 MR LAHER: And the entire R1.7 million 3 MR LAHER: And who are the liquidators, I
4 was forfeited. 4 know of Grieve Inc, but Village Star Trading?
5 DR GRIEVE: I didn’t say it was 1.7, but 5 DR GRIEVE: It is Dewald and there is, on
6 it was – 6 all of these there is also co-liquidators I think and I
7 MR LAHER: R1 million. 7 couldn’t tell you.
8 DR GRIEVE: R1 million something was 8 COMMISSIONER: No, that’s fine.
9 forfeited yes. 9 MR LAHER: Sorry, there is just one more
10 MR LAHER: As rouwkoop, damages or as? 10 question. When did you conclude that transaction for the
11 DR GRIEVE: I am not quite sure what the 11 acquisition of the house?
12 legal terminology would be, but they say it is forfeited. 12 DR GRIEVE: I can’t remember. It was
13 If I may rewind quickly, we found the bank account number 13 somewhere, but don’t quote me on the exact date, somewhere
14 for the Standard Bank Bridging company and it is going to 14 around about August, July – August of 2008.
15 be 083186786 and that is Standard Bank, Centurion. And I 15 MR LAHER: Did you not think that paying
16 would have no idea who the relationship manager was, 16 such a substantial –
17 because we went through quite a few in a very short space 17 COMMISSIONER: Sorry.
18 of time. The three accounts that I had there were linked 18 DR GRIEVE: Sorry, you are right
19 by a profile number or something, so if you do speak to a 19 apologies, incorrect. I just want to get my dates right.
20 bank manager there, they should be able to give you 20 We are in 10 now; we liquidated in 2009, so it was August
21 whatever you want on any of the accounts. 21 2009 apologies.
22 MR LAHER: And have we got details of all 22 COMMISSIONER: Thank you.
23 the other entities that held accounts? Just to clarify it 23 MR LAHER: Did you not think that an
24 is the Grieve Company that held an account at ABSA and 24 agreement under the context in which you were living in
25 Standard Bank, Centurion. 25 August 2009 with Presidium putting pressure on you, you out
Page 86 Page 88
1 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 1 in the market trying to raise money paying a R1 million
2 MR LAHER: It is Grieve Inc that held an 2 deposit and the risk of you losing that entire amount of R1
3 account at? 3 million is not a very reasonable decision.
4 DR GRIEVE: Both. 4 DR GRIEVE: It was a very stupid decision
5 MR LAHER: Both? 5 indeed.
6 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 6 MR LAHER: And where did the funds come
7 MR LAHER: It is you, in your personal 7 from, the R1 million deposit?
8 capacity that held accounts at both? 8 DR GRIEVE: My brother.
9 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 9 MR LAHER: And am I correct that you just
10 MR LAHER: And the building company? 10 said earlier that your brother was aware that you were
11 DR GRIEVE: That is Inc. 11 utilising his money to pay this deposit?
12 MR LAHER: Is that Grieve Inc. 12 DR GRIEVE: Indeed yes. He went to see
13 DR GRIEVE: That is Inc ja. And then 13 the house with us and that’s why he rushed one of those
14 there was one more Village Star Trading had an account with 14 payments over so that we could try and secure the house.
15 Standard Bank as well, but there was – 15 COMMISSIONER: What was the purchase
16 MR LAHER: That is Village Star Trading 16 price of the house?
17 52 (Pty) Limited. 17 DR GRIEVE: R14 million.
18 DR GRIEVE: That one, ja. But you will 18 COMMISSIONER: R14 million?
19 see there is almost very little activity in that account 19 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
20 that was three properties and we serviced rates and taxes 20 MR LAHER: How were you going to pay the
21 out of the account, so it is a very – 21 balance?
22 MR LAHER: And Grieve Inc is under 22 DR GRIEVE: I believed I would have been
23 liquidation, what is the status of Village Star? 23 able to service it out of the R50 million that had been
24 DR GRIEVE: All of the companies that I 24 promised to me as funding for bridging and I would be
25 have had shares in or – sorry that is the wrong term. 25 earning enough revenues from that. So that was my logic,
Page 89 Page 91
1 which is obviously totally flawed and ridiculous but at 1 times. And I think – I would rather not quote, let’s get
2 that time that is what I believed. 2 that agreement first. But there was definitely a couple of
3 MR LAHER: And that is the de Villiers 3 dates that had been set for that to come through.
4 R50 million? 4 MR LAHER: Did you conclude written
5 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 5 addendums or variations to that agreement?
6 MR LAHER: What was the commitment date 6 DR GRIEVE: They were just e-mails.
7 expressed in the de Villiers agreement? 7 MR LAHER: Have you got those e-mails?
8 DR GRIEVE: There had been lots of 8 DR GRIEVE: Unfortunately, no.
9 correspondence and he had had hiccups and he was still sure 9 MR LAHER: But for our purposes what you
10 that at that stage it would be imminent, it would be 30 10 are saying is that the agreement would embody a clear,
11 days around the corner, but that 30 days has never changed 11 binding undertaking to pay an amount by a particular date?
12 and it is still 30 days even today. I am sorry if that 12 DR GRIEVE: Ja.
13 sounds sarcastic, but – 13 MR LAHER: Unless Mr Storm wants to
14 MR LAHER: Was he in breach of an 14 undertake any re-examination I don’t have any further
15 obligation? 15 questions at this stage, save that we have caucused the
16 DR GRIEVE: At that stage it is difficult 16 date of the 1st and the 2nd of November, so I would only ask
17 to say no, because we had had e-mails and correspondence 17 you in concluding today’s session just to ask Dr Grieve to
18 and he was updating me with his progress and all the rest. 18 be available on the 1st and the 2nd.
19 And I had fairly good reason to believe that it would 19 COMMISSIONER: Dr Grieve, I am going to
20 realise. 20 warn you to please be in attendance on the 1st and 2nd of
21 MR LAHER: No doubt we will have the 21 November 2010 9:30 same premises, where we will be
22 opportunity of going through the agreement. But there must 22 proceeding with this inquiry. Mr Storm will be in contact
23 have been a target date for the advance of the loan or the 23 with Mr Laher, so you know if you want specific time
24 facility – 24 periods, because we will have other witnesses. And then
25 DR GRIEVE: There had been and it had 25 perhaps you know we could just make a fixed appointment; I
Page 90 Page 92
1 been postponed various times, so we still believed that the 1 don’t have any objection there. But you are, unless you
2 postponements had come to an end and that we would have 2 hear anything from Mr Storm or Mr Laher we will see you on
3 received money by, probably August, September and – 3 the 1st of November 9:30 same premises. Thank you for your
4 MR LAHER: The point I am trying to get 4 attendance.
5 to is, was there a commitment, an unequivocal legally 5 MR LAHER: Maybe we should just warn the
6 binding commitment on the part of de Villiers to advance 6 transcribers to be here as well.
7 that facility? 7 COMMISSIONER: Thank you Maggie. We will
8 DR GRIEVE: My opinion is yes and he 8 see you on the 1st and 2nd of November.
9 hadn’t met it. And he had postponed that and if you are 9 DR GRIEVE: I just want to confirm
10 standing on the other end to utilise it, you don’t 10 documents outstanding, if I may just?
11 necessarily argue or fight – 11 MR LAHER: Yes.
12 MR LAHER: I am not arguing about the 12 COMMISSIONER: Yes.
13 steps that you took to try and get the thing. 13 DR GRIEVE: I have given you the two bank
14 DR GRIEVE: Ja. 14 account numbers now.
15 MR LAHER: I want to try and understand 15 COMMISSIONER: Yes absolutely.
16 whether there was a legally binding commitment in the 16 DR GRIEVE: So it is literally just that
17 agreement to advance that? 17 contract that I need to get my hands on.
18 DR GRIEVE: Yes. 18 COMMISSIONER: The contract and then any
19 MR LAHER: The R50 million? 19 other – do you have a personal computer that you may have
20 DR GRIEVE: Yes, I mean if you go through 20 kept e-mails?
21 it now as an attorney and you look at that agreement, I am 21 DR GRIEVE: Unfortunately, no.
22 sure that in any agreement if somebody goes through it with 22 COMMISSIONER: Not?
23 a magnifying glass you are going to find a fault here or 23 DR GRIEVE: I did have a laptop.
24 there, but there was an agreement. And my understanding 24 COMMISSIONER: Yes.
25 was that that money should have been received various 25 DR GRIEVE: And it literally broke, like
Page 93
1 as in cracked and it has go no ways of – so I don’t even
2 have that anymore unfortunately.
3 COMMISSIONER: Okay that is all. Let me
4 just see quickly here, ja, just the agreement. Oh yes, the
5 copy of the sale agreement. That is what I wanted to ask
6 you, sorry, will you remember what you wanted to ask? Does
7 Attorney Naude not also do bridging?
8 MR STORM: I know where they are.
9 COMMISSIONER: Oh you know where they
10 are.
11 DR GRIEVE: Can you provide them with –
12 MR STORM: I know of them.
13 DR GRIEVE: Can I switch my phone on now
14 and give you the number?
15 COMMISSIONER: Yes. Maggie we can go off
16 record now, thank you very much.
17 [INQUIRY ADJOURNED]
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34:17,19,23 35:7,23
37:2 55:7,9 57:6 59:8
64:21 68:2,4 69:19
70:12 71:13 87:20,21
87:25

1st Transcript DSG Insolvency Inquiry 03 Aug 2010

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1st Transcript DSG Insolvency Inquiry 03 Aug 2010

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INTO THE AFFAIRS OF THE INSOLVENT ESTATE OF

DRS DS GRIEVES BRIDGING SOLUTIONS

03 AUGUST 2010 PAGES 1 TO 93

BOWMAN GILFILLAN, WEST STREET, SANDTON

64 10th Avenue, Highlands North, Johannesburg

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