Questions & Answers

Webinar: Expansion Joints in CAESAR II

Aired February 25, 2020

Question Asked Answer Given

What about PT on the pump for loading? If it is tied, You are correct; it needs to be accounted for. I think
you need to overcome PT in order to compress the Dave should cover it in his presentation. Pressure thrust
joint. will be discussed later in the presentation.

Most standards have a design factor (safety factor) that

Forces Check mentions 0.85. What is the provides enough margin for uncertainty. If both
recommended limit to accept it? Is there any best manufacturer and user follow the rules, you can go to
practice such x% below max? 100% of the listed limit but that would make many
engineers uncomfortable.

Refractory would certainly add weight that must be

How to consider the stiffness of refractory lining in considered. But, if I'm adding flexibility with an
Exp Joint and pipe in CAESAR II? expansion joint, I would be absorbing the load in the XJ
and not in bending the much stiffer, lined pipe.

No, the tied joint adds lateral flexibility not bending

flexibility. The stiffness model will carry the moment
Will the lateral movement that is allowed on a tied
while the actual assembly may allow the rods to rotate
expansion joint remove any associated bending?
(spherical nuts) or perhaps unload unevenly and absorb
some rotation and moment relaxation.

If your project allows expansion joints - yes. Dave is

Can I use expansion joint instead of expansion loop?
discussing advantages and disadvantages of expansion
What are the limitations of expansion joint?
joints in this Webinar.

Some would say that a "designed" piping system should

Should we ever choose design pressure for be designed for the system's design temperature and
expansion joint design? pressure. That makes sense but it is not always the
case. More below.

What is the max. recommended thermal expansion

Consult the manufacturer.
for expansion joint?

Yes, T1 is the load on the annulus of the last

Back to the thrust force. The thrust loads acting on convolution. In this case, the pressure places a
the nozzle should only be T1, correct? compressive load on the nozzle.

Let us know how to model online pressure balanced By not specifying the Effective EJ Diameter - there
below. would be no pressure thrust in the model.

I would apply more modeling detail when more-detailed

When is a complex ej model required or justified results are required - extreme load or deflection,
versus a simple model? nonlinear response (e.g., possible tie rod
disengagement), very complicated layouts.

3 March 2020 1
Question Asked Answer Given

Why am I not able to watch the older webinars from

Past webinars are added to our Resource Center.
hexagon site?

An untied joint can flex in all directions not just used That's correct. But using such a joint may require added
for axial, but untied is definitely used predominantly hardware (for pressure thrust) that eliminates many of
for axial as you noted. those degrees of freedom.

FYI there is a European standard about metallic XJ

currently under review:
https://norminfo.afnor.org/consultation/83135
Compensateurs de dilatation à soufflets métalliques This is good to know, thank you.
pour appareils à pression PR NF EN 14917
metal bellows expansion joints for pressure
applications.

A series of loose-style Victaulic couplings can add

What's your experience with using flexible victaulic
(lateral and bending) flexibility somewhat like an
joints if temperature and pressure allow it?
expansion joint.

Yes, placing the tied XJ on B will eliminate much of the

Hi, regarding the location where you are putting that
torsion in leg C (and torsion is a problem here, too). But
XJ, if you put it in B straight run there would be no
a tied joint on B will alter the inherent flexibility. On B
torsion at it. But if it is put at C segment there still be
you get flexibility in Y & Z translation and on C you get
a torsion component along the axial axis of the joint.
flexibility in X & Y translation. We probably need more Z
When you define a Ry restraint this torsion will not be
flexibility than Y flexibility here.
seen as displacement, but a torsional load will
appear at the joint flanges. Wouldn't be better to put
I think it is more common to sit the XJ on top of the
the XJ at B segment?
pump discharge flange.

I believe it will be difficult to construct a dependable

anchor on the riser above the pump. The tied joint on
So what will be arrangement around pump 1- Axial
the riser, right above the pump is more manageable.
thermal loads: pump + untied EJ + Anchor 2- For
The XJ will provide flexibility in the two horizontal
Lateral loads: pump + tied EJ + sliding support/guide.
directions and the pipe will grow freely in the Y direction.
Please confirm
The Y load will be managed by the spring at the top of
the riser.

Is there a reason CAESAR II asks for effective I.D.

It's been this way since the mid-1980s. Maybe the area
rather than effective area? Manufacturers often
wasn't available then, we'll have to check.
supply effective area.

Pressure-balanced joints would work in principle for

Are pressure balanced EJ's only for steam liquid line, but I wonder if they are practical with the
applications? changing ODs considering things like viscosity and
settlement in the convolutions.

3 March 2020 2
Question Asked
When modeling tie rods, where would the CNODE
be located?
Rubber EJ are extensively used around pump in
water service, and mostly it is difficult to get stiffness
values of rubber EJ by vendor, neither in CAESAR II.
How to deal with such cases?
Is there a way to change the XJ material when using
the CAESAR II XJ modeler?
How does one make or add to the databases in C2
for EJ's?
One of the uses of EJ is to isolate the pump
vibration, but at other side, EJ reduced system
stiffness. So, what to do with such scenario?
Should we ever choose design pressure for
expansion joint design?
Preparing XJ data sheet for skewed position below
3 March 2020
Answer Given
Usually one end uses the pipe or flange node (basically
anchoring the tie rod to the pipe), the other end is where
the CNode goes.
You must acquire that data, otherwise the model is
incomplete. We can't help you with this task.
The effects of the bellows material are addressed by the
stiffnesses. And, since we do not calculate stress on the
XJ, I see no reason to define a specific material for the
bellows. (I note that at least some of the XJ databases
allow selection of the bellows material but I believe that
is more for filling the order (and addressing corrosion)
than adjusting the model.
We work with the XJ manufacturer in setting up these
databases. Contact us if you wish to offer a different set
of manufacturer's data.
Typically, XJs are added for the purpose of reducing
system stiffness especially around sensitive pumps. In a
pump/XJ/piping assembly, you can add additional
restraints on the piping side without loading up the pump
side.
Some would say that a "designed" piping system should
be designed for the system's design temperature and
pressure. That makes sense but it is not always the
case. Often time an engineer will work with operating
values rather than design values but who is to say, in
the future, that someone would assume that the design
values should work as well.
I do not see a B31.3 reference to this matter. Paragraph
319.5 Reactions states that "Reaction forces and
moments ... shall be based on the maximum load from
operating conditions" - no mention of design loads here.
More information required.
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