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 Fiddle Building, Setup, and Repair
 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Intonation and setup

Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and
refer to this topic with a link: http://www. ddlehangout.com/archive/21602

bcbeak - Posted - 05/04/2011:  09:39:33

Yesterday I noticed that my violin bridge had moved slightly forward of the side notched in the F holes.

As I understand it .. the bridge front edge is supposed to be in-line with these notches.

I've been struggling with intonation forever ... and was wondering if this improper setup could e ect the
intonation of the instrument

and ultimately making it more di cult for a player to play in tune? 

Topic moved from Playing advice wormbower

/
Edited by - wormbower on 05/07/2011 14:11:26

Swing - Posted - 05/04/2011:  10:09:48

Yes!

Play Happy

Diane G - Posted - 05/04/2011:  10:15:12

Hi, if you have a luthier, a trained strings instrument repairman/restorer near by...take your ddle to them and
have them check it out and reset the bridge. While your there have them check the after length (the distance
behind the bridge) and also check the position of your soundpost.   Ask them to check the distance of the
strings o the nut to   If the strings are too high o the ngerboard then you have to press too hard and can
have o intonation.  Another suggestion is to get help with intonation using a tuning device....check out the
Onboard, CP2 tuner that you can clip over the pegbox between the pegs and use it as a tool to check your nger
placement for each note. It's awesome.  Also, a great teaching website (some free videos) for intonation with the
scales...out of Austin, Texas.   Stay tuned. Fiddling Diane

Check out:  Violinlab.com

/
 

TomGlos - Posted - 05/04/2011:  10:26:04

Sorry but intonation is down to the player's ear and ngers. That kind of setup di erence is insigni cant.

(Okay, maybe unless the player's ear has deteriorated more than the ngers.)

Once things are going well one should be able to pick up a 4:4, 7:8 or 3:4 ddle or a viola and play in tune pretty
much straight away.

Diane G - Posted - 05/04/2011:  10:47:32

Yes, I'd agree with you about ears and ngers...BUT...if the player is a beginner or worst still has been playing for
a time, does not have the correct pitch as a reference to go by then they need some help developing a correct
pitch...then an electronic  device or a piano keyboard...so that WHEN they put their ngers down for a
note...they will be able to correct the pitch but only if they are able to "hear" the perfect pitch in their mind. 
Who wants to play out of tune? Not many if they can help it...it ruins the fun and enjoyment.   This is just a
suggestion from a teacher and one who loves to play in pitch...LOL.

Diane

alaska ddler - Posted - 05/04/2011:  11:24:45

/
I agree with Tom. The ddle has no frets, you adjust your ngers to play in tune. The ddle itself will not play out
of tune. Unless you are using (memorized) your the exact visual or tactile feel of where the nger goes to a
speci c string length, in other words not listening.

If the bridge to nut distance was 13 inches, and is now 12 .875 inches, your nger placement will change, by a
32nd of an inch on the third nger, less than that on the rst (less than a 64th) and second.

If you are struggling with intonation, it probably has nothing to do with the bridge placement. Using your
ears for intonation, it just isn't a big deal to accommodate the slight change. Even for a beginner, they should
not be going on that precise visual or tactile, but rather listening. 

The bigger issue is bridge placement on a ecting the tone. You can't quite go by exactly by the notches of the f
holes, that's just a general guide.

transplant - Posted - 05/04/2011:  12:15:28

quote:

Originally posted by bcbeak

As I understand it .. the bridge front edge is supposed to be in-line with these notches.

I was taught to put the middle of the bridge foot in line with the inner nick of the treble-side f hole. It is also
important to keep the bridge centered on the top of the ddle. If there is a reason to put the bridge somewhere

/
else, you need to nd out the reason why. Maybe it needs to be that way for best tone or response, but more
than likely it is just wrong.

bj - Posted - 05/04/2011:  12:44:39

I was taught to double check the notches since they're sometimes put in the wrong place. Position the bridge so
it's exactly in the middle between the end of the ngerboard and the ridge on the tailpiece where the strings
touch (I use a wittner tailpiece that allows correct afterlength positioning. USUALLY that's where the notches are
if your ddle was made by a real workshop. If your ddle is handmade by an amateur all bets are o . Also be
aware that if your tail gut has stretched things will be slightly out of kilter. Any luthier should be able to check to
see if this is all as it should be and tell you the optimal place based on your ddle. And since things can wiggle
slightly over time, it's why a checkup yearly is a good thing.

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 05/04/2011:  13:07:55

I'm guessing there are about as many answers to this one as there are players.  I have several ddles and can't
decide which one I really want to play the most, so I have them all set with the exact same bridge placement. 
This allows me to move from one to the next with almost no getting used to it time.   I have them set so the
distance from the edge of the nut to the edge of the bridge is 12 15/16th".  I have the sound posts set to where
the best sound was achieved, given the placement of the bridge.  On the old Hopf, that means the bridge is
about 3/8th of an inch behind the notches in the F holes, but I read somewhere that Hopf's often times are set
up that way.  It is obviously about where the bridge had been for years prior to my getting the instrument
because of the slight dents in the top from previous bridges.   That however slightly side steps the original
issue.  It seems to me the best way to improve intonation is to nd something or someone to play with, i.e.
computer software, music minus one CD, etc.  Hearing a D chord say while you are playing notes designed to be
played against it, will help you play those in tune.  I have also heard that the newer Snark Tuner is very quick
and will instantly show if you are playing a given note in tune.  These of course are all just things to help your
ear develop to the point where it will take over and keep a person in tune.   Hope this helps!! 

Diane G - Posted - 05/04/2011:  13:34:43

/
Hi Bandsmcnamar....the Snark Tuner is very cheap and the back up lite is very poor.  If your outside playing and
want to tune..you can hardly see the notes (letters) on the screen.   Our shop is sellling them...the kids love
them and they are ok for inside tuning.  Also, it's di cult to see the letter as there is so much going on behind
the letters with the at to sharp lights.  I would recommend the new PT10 by Onboard Research...Intellitough. 
DG

bandsmcnamar - Posted - 05/04/2011:  14:13:09

I have to admit to not having personally tried one, but a friend of mine swears by his.  He says it has helped his
intonation a lot, using it while working on scales.  He probably doesn't play too many scales when he's outside
though. LOL  I personally have both an Intelli and an Intellitouch (which admittedly have some age to them) but
neither one is fast enough to be helpful when playing at anything more than a snail's pace.  Good information
though, thank you!

transplant - Posted - 05/04/2011:  14:27:35

 12 15/16" amounts to about 328.6 mm, which makes perfect sense.

My favorite ddle has a mensur of about 129/194. If I went and middled the bridge between the tailpiece fret
and ngerboard end, it would wind up too far north by almost a quarter inch, messing up that nice 2/3 ratio.
Maybe my tailgut is too long. Next string change, I might use up a set of sacri cial strings fussing with that
adjustment, but for now it seems to be working. Maybe that is why it is so well-behaved at the moment, maybe
even a bit too well-behaved.

BJ, I hope it isn't my turn to be the disagreeable old cuss, but that "middling" method seems to depend on too
many variables to be reliable. On the other hand, somewhere I got the notion that some of the old timers
(American old timers, that is; I know nothing about the guys who hung out with the likes of Paganini) liked their
bridges way south of what is now considered the standard "book" position.

/
@bcbeak, I do not think that shifting the bridge by an eighth of an inch should a ect your intonation, unless you
are playing in the stratosphere, say above fth or seventh position. Most importantly, it will change how the
treble-side bridge foot stands with regard to the soundpost. That can be more or less of a big deal, depending
on the ddle. On sensitive instruments, scootiing the bridge fore or aft by an invisibly tiny amount makes a
di erence you can hear.

-------------------------------

(Mensur is the ratio between neck stop and body stop. Standard neck stop is 130 mm between the business
edge of the nut and the shoulder of the instrument. Standard body stop is 195 mm between the shoulder and
the inner nick of the treble f-hole.)

ddlepogo - Posted - 05/04/2011:  18:39:07

Both sides have some validity here.

1. Bridge placement DOES have a big e ect on tone- prime aspect is it's relation to the soundpost.  The last time
the soundpost was properly set, it was set in relation to the bridge.  If the bridge is then moved, the soundpost
is no longer it the right position in relation to it, and the sound will su er.

2. While intonation IS adjustable up to a point, a bridge too far forward is like playing a shorter scale
instrument,  and people move to larger scale instruments for a reason.  If the right notes are too cramped
together for the size of your ngers, it's going to make things harder.  A player with short or small ngers could
get by with the bridge too far forward, but might do even better on a 7/8 size violin- they should try one if one
becomes available.

3. One way a bridge moved forward has an e ect on tone is that, the string gauge being equal and the pitch
being standard, it makes the string slacker, and that makes the strings more sensitive to squawking with excess
pressure.

/
bj - Posted - 05/05/2011:  16:32:45

quote:

Originally posted by transplant

BJ, I hope it isn't my turn to be the disagreeable old cuss, but that "middling" method seems to depend on too many variables to be
reliable. On the other hand, somewhere I got the notion that some of the old timers (American old timers, that is; I know nothing about
the guys who hung out with the likes of Paganini) liked their bridges way south of what is now considered the standard "book" position.

You worked on the ddle of mine that has the notches in the right place, and puts the bridge right between 'em
when the tailgut is adjusted properly. You never saw the amateur made ddle I once had that, if you had put
the bridge between the very WIDE and nastily cut notches, would have been anyplace but where it should have
been to make the ddle sound good. FYI, I also measure from the nut as an additional checkpoint.

Learner - Posted - 05/05/2011:  18:37:21

/
 quote:

Originally posted by fiddlepogo

Both sides have some validity here.

1. Bridge placement DOES have a big effect on tone- prime aspect is it's relation to the soundpost. The last time the soundpost was
properly set, it was set in relation to the bridge. If the bridge is then moved, the soundpost is no longer it the right position in relation
to it, and the sound will suffer........................

 I have found this to be very true.  The closer the soundpost is to the bridge, the more "focused" the sound.  If
too far away from the bridge, the sound has a proponderance of overtones, making it harder to discern the
fundamental.  I would call this an "unfocused" sound.

If an instrument has a tone that is too "unfocused", it becomes hard to hear when you are ngering on pitch.  At
least that is my experience.

There are certain notes (such as third nger notes G and D in rst position) that should evoke strong
sympathetic resonance frequencies when played on pitch.  This is one way that you can tell that you are actually
on pitch, as the sound of the instrument will "open up" when intonation is good on many notes in the common
scales.  But if the bridge/soundpost relationship if o , you will have a more di cult time discerning this e ect.  I
have tried a few instruments that had this problem.  It can usually easily be xed by either moving the bridge
closer to the soundpost, or moving the soundpost closer to the bridge, which ever one is the most o ending
party.

In my limited experience, afterlength is also important.  I now have two ddles, both set up with the afterlength
properly adjusted (as I was shown by a luthier).  I can report that when everything is "right", I almost don't need
/
a tuner to tune, as my A string will ring out righteously when it is at A440 (on both my ddles).

Best wishes,

Frank

Edited by - Learner on 05/05/2011 18:41:43

transplant - Posted - 05/06/2011:  03:56:18

quote:

Originally posted by bj

anyplace but where it should have been

Homemade ddles with non-standard measurements can be fun to get working. I've been spoiled by my little
ddle and its easy-going nature. Need to spend more time with the viola. Those beasts sure can be individuals,
and will keep the old left hand from getting too set in its ways.

Sue B. - Posted - 05/06/2011:  05:39:30

There are luthiers with a gift for soundpost adjustment. Using the f-hole notches for the bridge is an all-purpose
guideline. Like a lot of all-purpose items, one size- ts-all ts practically no one. There are other crucial
/
measurements, such as length of string behind the bridge to the tailpiece, or how many & what kind of tuners
someone has, that a ect sound. Sue  

Robee - Posted - 05/12/2011:  17:56:43

I have set the intonation on electric guitars and mandolins many times.  Basically, you do this by moving the
bridge.  Since the bridge has a place on a ddle where it is supposed to set, it would mean changing the length,
behind the bridge, by adjusting the afterlength.

Now, If you are tuning to the standard, GDAE tuning, you would do it like this.  Start with the G string in tune
and play a scale,G,A,B,C,D.  This D should be a true D and if it isn't, the intonation is o .

If you tune the D string to this, play a scale again and use that to tune your A string.  Repeat again on the A and
tune the E.   If your intonation is o , that E string will be nowhere near an E note.

Some people just tune each string with another instrument or with their electronic tuner and try to compensate
by practicing hitting the correct notes and not worrying about intonation.

Fidleir - Posted - 05/12/2011:  18:11:30

Robee - I only play the ddle - but it is my understanding that the term "intonation" - when referring to the violin
- has to do with the player's ability to hit notes correctly.  I don't understand how a violin's "intonation" can be
set.  Isn't intonation the responsibility of the player?  Now if by "intonation" you actually mean tuning the strings
on the instrument - well - is that what you mean?

woodwiz - Posted - 05/12/2011:  18:29:32

/
 quote:

Originally posted by Robee

I have set the intonation on electric guitars and mandolins many times. Basically, you do this by moving the bridge. Since the bridge
has a place on a fiddle where it is supposed to set, it would mean changing the length, behind the bridge, by adjusting the afterlength.

Now, If you are tuning to the standard, GDAE tuning, you would do it like this. Start with the G string in tune and play a
scale,G,A,B,C,D. This D should be a true D and if it isn't, the intonation is off.

If you tune the D string to this, play a scale again and use that to tune your A string. Repeat again on the A and tune the E. If your
intonation is off, that E string will be nowhere near an E note.

Some people just tune each string with another instrument or with their electronic tuner and try to compensate by practicing hitting the
correct notes and not worrying about intonation.

I work on violin family instruments and fretted instruments as well.  Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't
understand what you wrote at all. 

On fretted instruments, I set the intonation at the 12th fret, checking the fretted octave against the harmonic. 
I'll check other frets, too, but players often pull their strings out of tune by using too much pressure and/or
putting their ngers too far behind the frets. Action that's too high can spoil intonation on fretted instruments,
as well.

On violins I'm not aware of anything such as setting intonation, unless it's a fretted violin. The bridge moves a
little bit every time you tune the instrument; it's not xed as it is on fretted instruments. We try to keep the
sounding length between 328 - 330mm, but that's not even possible all the time. Intonation on bowed
instrument is up to the player's ears. That's what I understand, anyway.  Could you elaborate a bit, and explain
how what you  wrote relates to my experience? /
BTW, when I set up a ddle, I set bridge position rst in relation to playing length and the overall structure of the
ddle (body length, stop length, etc.) I try to keep string playing length in that 328-330 mm window as much as I
can, but some ddles just won't allow that.  Once the bridge is set, I set the afterlength and sound post location
in relation to the bridge.  Really, nothing else makes sense to me, or gets better results.

Edited by - woodwiz on 05/12/2011 18:35:57

Fidleir - Posted - 05/12/2011:  18:52:11

Woodwiz - glad to see your reply.  I thought I was going crazy for a minute there.  It's really important for folks
to be careful and accurate with the language they use to discuss this stu .  Well - it's important to be accurate
when discussing everything.  Violins are not guitars and violins don't have "fretboards" - a term I often see used
to refer to the ngerboard.  

Anyway - happy you replied and by accident con rmed my point.

giannaviolins - Posted - 05/13/2011:  04:10:56

Some people are pretty sensitive to the length of each string.  I set the bridge with the blank's tailpiece side not
quite perpendicular to the plane of the rib/top juncture.  I end up with a double crowned bridge, very stable.
 Not everyone does this.  I've seen good violins done this way and also done with a at back.  With the double
/
crowned bridge I do a bit more wood removal on the back at the outer edges, so the shoulders are forward
slightly, so the string sounding lengths are closer to the same distance.  I can actually tell the di erence on good
violins - some players have remarked on this, too.  

Past that, I can't see the intonation issue.  

I've seen several Cremona made instruments with the tailpiece edge of the bridge lined up with the notches.
 The late great Garrett Pate of Nashville (ste. Cecille marketer) informed me that this was intentional.  Does
shorten the scale a tiny bit.

An issue I face in all general setups is that eventually someone will put the bridge between the notches, lined up
by eye with the ngerboard, and will move the post into the "standard" position.  I do everything I can to make
this be a good position, including making kanted bridges.  I fairly regularly see setups I've done that have been
" xed" by other workers.  I'm seeing them because the " x" has hurt the performance.  Reducing the apparent
need to " x" probably reduces this incidence!

Robee - Posted - 05/13/2011:  05:42:09

What I was referring to was basically the same thing as what Woodwiz was saying about the 12'th fret thing on a
guitar.  An electric guitar has adjustments on the bridge. If the 12'th fret is at, you would move the adjuster a
little toward the nut.  Isn't this what correct intonation is?  This would be the same as making the part of the
string longer behind the bridge, right?  Isn't this what afterlength is?

Now if all these adjusters are back say 1/8 of an inch or say 1 mm to the metric folks, the intonation of each
string would be way o .
/
Tune this way, set the low E to correct pitch.  Tune the A string to this by ngering the 5'th fret and tuning the A
string to that.  Continue on tuning each string to the last one.  By the time you are at the high E,  that open E
would be nowhere close to being a true E note.   Now this was all about setting intonation on a six string guitar,
but how would an instrument without frets be any di erent then this?

Now I know the bridge on a ddle tends to lean forward with each tuning and this could mess up all of this.  You
do have to keep the bridge as upright as possible all the time and I do agree that this makes it impossible for a
ddle to have perfect intonation. Shoot, I can't even get my guitars or mandolin anywhere close to perfect.  This
is exactly why I tune each string using my clip on tuner. big

Edited by - Robee on 05/13/2011 05:45:24

DougD - Posted - 05/13/2011:  06:24:14

Robee, an instrument without frets is completely di erent from a fretted instrument. The process you're
describing concerning the 12th fret only applies to instruments that have frets. Where is the 12th fret on a
violin? Read the posts above.

The pitch of an open string is determined by the length between the nut and the bridge. The afterlength has
nothing to do with it, although it may a ect the tone in subtle ways.

Edited by - DougD on 05/13/2011 06:37:07

TomGlos - Posted - 05/13/2011:  07:36:00

/
When you follow your method Robee and you play up to the D on the G string and the D is o , is that your fault
or the ddle's?

transplant - Posted - 05/13/2011:  07:46:12

On days when my ears seem unreliable, I check open string fths with harmonics: pinky on the octave, rst
nger on the third harmonic of the string below. Easy to hear the unison when bowing both at once. All the rest
of my intonation (or lack of it) depends on ear and nger placement.

Unconscious muscle memory (the part that comes from a history of playing) gets me somewhere near the note.
During my warmup I listen for o notes and remember the feel of my ngers xing them. I guess that is
conscious muscle memory, of the recent kind.

giannaviolins - Posted - 05/13/2011:  07:46:45

Robee - consider carefully fretless.

woodwiz - Posted - 05/13/2011:  07:59:40

/
 quote:

Originally posted by Robee

What I was referring to was basically the same thing as what Woodwiz was saying about the 12'th fret thing on a guitar. An electric
guitar has adjustments on the bridge. If the 12'th fret is flat, you would move the adjuster a little toward the nut. Isn't this what
correct intonation is? This would be the same as making the part of the string longer behind the bridge, right? Isn't this what
afterlength is?

Now if all these adjusters are back say 1/8 of an inch or say 1 mm to the metric folks, the intonation of each string would be way off.

Tune this way, set the low E to correct pitch. Tune the A string to this by fingering the 5'th fret and tuning the A string to that.
Continue on tuning each string to the last one. By the time you are at the high E, that open E would be nowhere close to being a
true E note. Now this was all about setting intonation on a six string guitar, but how would an instrument without frets be any different
then this?

Now I know the bridge on a fiddle tends to lean forward with each tuning and this could mess up all of this. You do have to keep the
bridge as upright as possible all the time and I do agree that this makes it impossible for a fiddle to have perfect intonation. Shoot, I
can't even get my guitars or mandolin anywhere close to perfect. This is exactly why I tune each string using my clip on tuner. big

Afterlength on a ddle is the distance between the bridge and the contact point on the tailpiece.  It can be
adjusted independently of bridge position by changing the length of the tail gut or even the length of the
tailpiece.

Most electric guitars have adjustable bridges, and you can move the bridge section for each string to adjust
intonation. (I won't get into the fact that even when properly adjusted, fretted instruments sound out of tune
due to equal temperament.) Acoustic instruments and bowed instruments are di erent: On mandolins, archtop
guitars and b**jos, you move the bridge itself, and sometimes carve compensation into the bridge.  On acoustic
attop guitars, all you can generally do is compensate the bridge saddle, or replace the bridge.

/
With fretless instruments, there is nothing to adjust to. Intonation is entirely up to the player. This has
advantages and disadvantages. You can play horribly out of tune, or you can play much more "in tune" than any
fretted instrument.  You can change intonation for di erent keys, and you can use intonation for expression.
You can also play a lot of music styles that Western fretted instruments won't allow, such as Middle Eastern and
Carnatic music.

Some people are indeed sensitive to playing length, so I also try to stay as close to standard as possible. I don't
have any problem adjusting back and forth from di erent scale lengths, probably because I play on several
di erent instruments each day.

TomGlos - Posted - 05/13/2011:  08:57:06

Your replies do you great credit gentlemen!

Robee - Posted - 05/13/2011:  09:11:01

Tom,  You asked:

When you follow your method Robee and you play up to the D on the G string and the D is o , is that your fault
or the ddle's?

Here is my answer.  A mandolin is tuned just like a ddle.  On a mando,  on that G string, you would play open,
2'nd, 4'th, 5'th. and then 7'th fret. That 7'th fret would be the D note. If it isn't a D, then you would have to move
the bridge forward or back to adjust.  This wouldn't be the players fault, it is basic setup.  Therefore on a fretless
ddle, it shouldn't be either. 

/
On a mandolin, the nut and tailpiece are xed so you change the relationship of the length from nut to bridge,
and from bridge to tailpiece by moving the bridge.   I guess you could do the same thing on a ddle, but they
say not to move the bridge.  The only way to change the relationship between nut to bridge, and bridge to
tailpiece would be to move the tailpiece.

Perhaps this could explain it all better although the writer doesn't call it adjusting intonation, he calls it adjusting
the tailgut.  But....He is moving the tailpiece to correct intonation:

dalemfg.com/acousticaladjustment_005.htm

DougD - Posted - 05/13/2011:  09:27:50

"But....He is moving the tailpiece to correct intonation" No, he isn't. He is trying to get the afterlength
to contribute more resonance to the instrument. Read it again - the very first step, before he does
anything else is to "First get all the strings exactly in tune." Nothing he does later will change this at
all.

A mandolin may be "tuned just like a ddle" but it has frets. A fretted instrument is fretted to correspond to a
particular scale length. When you move the bridge on a mandolin, banjo, archtop or electric guitar you are
making sure that the actual scale length corresponds to the one for which the frets were calculated, i.e. that the
twelfth fret is exactly an octave above the open string. This doesn't apply to a violin because it has no frets. The
scale length can vary somewhat - you just adjust your nger placement.

Edited by - DougD on 05/13/2011 09:32:50

woodwiz - Posted - 05/13/2011:  09:45:19

/
 quote:

Originally posted by Robee

Tom, You asked:

When you follow your method Robee and you play up to the D on the G string and the D is off, is that your fault or the fiddle's?

Here is my answer. A mandolin is tuned just like a fiddle. On a mando, on that G string, you would play open, 2'nd, 4'th, 5'th. and
then 7'th fret. That 7'th fret would be the D note. If it isn't a D, then you would have to move the bridge forward or back to adjust.
This wouldn't be the players fault, it is basic setup. Therefore on a fretless fiddle, it shouldn't be either.

On a mandolin, the nut and tailpiece are fixed so you change the relationship of the length from nut to bridge, and from bridge to
tailpiece by moving the bridge. I guess you could do the same thing on a fiddle, but they say not to move the bridge. The only way to
change the relationship between nut to bridge, and bridge to tailpiece would be to move the tailpiece.

Perhaps this could explain it all better although the writer doesn't call it adjusting intonation, he calls it adjusting the tailgut. But....He
is moving the tailpiece to correct intonation:

dalemfg.com/acousticaladjustment_005.htm

There are no frets on the vast majority of ddles! There's no basic setup for intonation. Period. Intonation is
solely up to the player.

Adjusting afterlength has nothing to do with intonation. It's about resonance and overtones.

IME, tuning afterlength is counterproductive, and doesn't work as well as simply adjusting overall afterlength to
where it sounds best. I've done a lot of both, and the best sound does not come from "tuning" the afterlength. /
Just because an amateur who has made 25 or so violins of  unknown merit puts something on a web site,
doesn't mean it should be swallowed whole. You have to consider your source.

I try to learn from people of proven ability. Amateurs tend to pass on a lot of hearsay without really knowing
what they are talking about. Some of it's good, some bad.  Professionals with years of experience have usually
weeded out the bad stu , and while individuals will often disagree, their ideas are usually based on actual
experience, and have merit.

BTW, adjusting mando bridges based on the 7th fret intonation doesn't  work as well because intonation on
lower frets is in uenced too much by setup and player technique. Also, the fths are a little o in equal temper
tuning.   12th fret vs octave harmonic has fewer variables and is a lot more reliable. That's why it's the standard
method among professionals. Even then, technique is important.

Robee - Posted - 05/13/2011:  12:20:01

quote: BTW, adjusting mando bridges based on the 7th fret intonation doesn't work as well because intonation on lower frets is
influenced too much by setup and player technique. Also, the fifths are a little off in equal temper tuning. 12th fret vs octave harmonic
has fewer variables and is a lot more reliable. That's why it's the standard method among professionals. Even then, technique is
important.

 I think that I was saying that if you were to tune the G string, walk up the scale to tune the next string, the 7'th
fret would be the D note.  On the D string, the 7'th note would be the A, then the 7'th note on the A string would
be E. If the intonation is o , that E note would be way at or sharp. This isn't to set the intonation. LOL  I was
using a fretted mando to illustrate walking up the scale to tune the next string, because you can see the frets to
count.

I have heard folks here say they tune their A string with a tuning fork and then tune the other strings to this
string.  They must tune the other strings by walking up or down the scale, right?  Just as with a fretted
instrument, how could this be possible if intonation was o ?

/
transplant - Posted - 05/13/2011:  12:53:32

That's why I use harmonics to get it exact.

Putting on a new string, very often I will walk one way or the other to get it in the ballpark. Say I just replaced the
D; I will walk up to the " fth fret" of the A to get another D. A lot of the time I even run a scale down from there,
sliding up on the new string til the scale sounds right, so I have a fresh example of the target note in my ear.

woodwiz - Posted - 05/13/2011:  12:59:20

quote:

Originally posted by Robee

I have heard folks here say they tune their A string with a tuning fork and then tune the other strings to this string. They must tune
the other strings by walking up or down the scale, right? Just as with a fretted instrument, how could this be possible if intonation was
off?

They tune by playing open double stops and listening for the perfect fth.  Nobody I know of tunes a ddle by
walking up or down the scale. Too hard, not accurate, no frets.

giannaviolins - Posted - 05/13/2011:  14:39:49

 
/
"Here is my answer. A mandolin is tuned just like a fiddle."

Yes, but it's a tempered instrument, so some adjustments are possibly in order.

"On a mando, on that G string, you would play open, 2'nd, 4'th, 5'th. and then 7'th fret. That 7'th fret would be the D note. If it isn't a D,
then you would have to move the bridge forward or back to adjust. This wouldn't be the players fault, it is basic setup."

I'll echo Woodwiz - all of us set intonation at the octave with the action pretty close to final set. On better, sensitive instruments I'll bevel
the bridge back to set the intonation on each of the four courses. I do a lot of mandolin work.

" Therefore on a fretless fiddle, it shouldn't be either. "

No frets, one would simply play up the notes in your sequence and be dead on, were you a good player. Playing imaginary frets by
distance seems highly unlikely to be anyone's approach. Have you actually tuned a fiddle before?

"On a mandolin, the nut and tailpiece are fixed so you change the relationship of the length from nut to bridge, and from bridge to
tailpiece by moving the bridge. I guess you could do the same thing on a fiddle, but they say not to move the bridge. The only way to
change the relationship between nut to bridge, and bridge to tailpiece would be to move the tailpiece."

The bridge can be moved a bit back and forth, as well as the afterlength varied. Neither has a thing to do with fiddle intonation.

"Perhaps this could explain it all better although the writer doesn't call it adjusting intonation, he calls it adjusting the tailgut. But....He is
moving the tailpiece to correct intonation:"

He isn't working with intonation at all on the cited page.

Robee, with all respect, you have no idea whatsoever what you're writing about. None. The mandolin example is nicely wrong, I can't
think of anyone ever setting intonation or tuning that way. I tend to tune mandolins to perfect fifths because it's really fast, as with a violin.
That's close enough, especially given the inherent intonation oddities of tempered fretted instruments. I suggest you examine the posts
on this thread carefully before beating the dead horse any more.

/
Robee - Posted - 05/13/2011:  18:02:29

Well with that, I will back down from you pros.  After all, I joined this group to learn from you, not to teach you
anything.   You all give great advice and I thank you.  I have successfully set up a playable ddle and am pretty
happy with that rst ddle setup.  I couldn't  have accomplished that without your advice and helpful links that
you post sometimes.

Robee - Posted - 05/13/2011:  18:39:30

Oh no!   You guys have me thinking now.   I remember reading posts here about this thing called a " ddle
fretter,"   I am sure that they are used exclusively by newbies to the instrument.   I am sure experienced players
wouldn't even try one.  I am even more positive that the real Luthiers here would  not approve of them at all.  
But if someone were to want to use one, and now the  harmonics were to prove at or sharp, just how the heck
could this be xed?   I can see that none of my suggestions would have worked so I am honestly asking what
you experienced folks would do to correct this problem.

transplant - Posted - 05/13/2011:  19:24:39

I tried out one of the early Fiddle Fretters. Stuck it onto my wife's teaching ddle for a few days. That was an
Eastman VL100 with a decent setup. One of the rst things I did was compare the ngered note at the twelfth
fret with the octave harmonic. In that case, it worked the way it is supposed to.

If someone had one of those on their ngerboard and those notes didn't match, the remedy would be the same
as for an electric guitar with an adjustable bridge. Ya does what it takes to get the notes to be the same. Trouble
with doing that on on a ddle is that it would move the treble bridge foot, changing the way it stands in relation
to the soundpost. No biggie if you are comfortable putting the soundpost back in its happy spot.

/
 

giannaviolins - Posted - 05/13/2011:  20:14:07

I'm always looking for things to learn.  But I already know a mandolin isn't a violin isn't a guitar. 

The intonation game is an interesting one.  I've done really nice compensation at nut and saddle for guitars.
 Much better.  But few want that type of thing.  Mandolins, good ones, like having the courses individually
compensated.  Compensation adjusts primarily for frets.  

Fiddle setups aren't too di cult for a while.  Eventually the detail work gets absorbing and the amount to learn
grows faster than that already learned.

TomGlos - Posted - 05/14/2011:  05:06:50

Following on from your last, giannaviolins, what can one do but quote Alexander Pope (1688-1744)

/
/
"A little learning is a dangerous thing ;

Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :

There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,

And drinking largely sobers us again.

Fired at rst sight with what the Muse imparts,

In fearless youth we tempt the heights of Arts ;

While from the bounded level of our mind

Short views we take, nor see the lengths behind,

But, more advanced, behold with strange surprise

New distant scenes of endless science rise !

So pleased at rst the towering Alps we try,

Mount o’er the vales, and seem to tread the sky ;

/
 The eternal snows appear already past,

And the rst clouds and mountains seem the last ;

But those attained, we tremble to survey

The growing labours of the lengthened way ;

The increasing prospect tires our wandering eyes,

Hill peep o’er hills, and Alps on Alps arise !"

De nitely not posted in criticism of anyone in this discussion or on FiddleHangout, but I'd never realised how
relevant it is to internet discussion forums!

Have a good weekend folks, I'm getting some workshop time in, seeing my sweetie, then playing for a
barndance.   I consider myself very fortunate.

Tom

/
woodwiz - Posted - 05/14/2011:  09:00:15

quote:

Originally posted by TomGlos

/
Following on from your last, giannaviolins, what can one do but quote Alexander Pope (1688-1744)

/
"A little learning is a dangerous thing ;

Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :

There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,

And drinking largely sobers us again.

Fired at first sight with what the Muse imparts,

In fearless youth we tempt the heights of Arts ;

While from the bounded level of our mind

Short views we take, nor see the lengths behind,

But, more advanced, behold with strange surprise

New distant scenes of endless science rise !

So pleased at first the towering Alps we try,

Mount o’er the vales, and seem to tread the sky ;

The eternal snows appear already past,

/
 And the first clouds and mountains seem the last ;

But those attained, we tremble to survey

The growing labours of the lengthened way ;

The increasing prospect tires our wandering eyes,

Hill peep o’er hills, and Alps on Alps arise !"

I like it.

Been there, done that, threw away the T-shirt, though.big

chicoviolins - Posted - 05/27/2011:  08:14:57

Intonation -  Having worked for years with student violinists, it was very interesting to hear them move to the
next size, from say a 1/2 to 3/4, where the scale is almost an inch longer..  Invariably, because of good training,
they IMMEDIATELY adjusted to the new scale length  because they used their ears and not their eyes to guide
them.  Good intonation is easier for some than others.  But it must be developed as a good starting point.  In
classical music an F#, for instance, may be sharper or atter depending on where it shows up in a scale or in a
given phrase (it's the same in ddling).  If that F# is a leading tone, it may be even sharper for emphasis.  The
EAR and the MUSIC decide the intonation.  So intonation has nothing to do with the bridge position.  With a
/
good ear you will adapt immediately to any change in bridge position.  And if you are playing in tune you will
hear any notes that correspond to open strings making those strings sound sympathetically which gives even a
fuller tone.  When you play your stopped A's, D's, G's and E's, listen for those.

As to bridge position, the f hole nicks are a guide, not a sacred locator.   One generally starts there and I usually
put the back of the bridge there, because the top edge of the bridge will then line up with those nicks.  But I've
encountered many di erent placements in violins, some with the dents left by the old bridge BEHIND the nicks. 
Soundpost placement has much more to do with tone than the bridge being a millimeter forward or back of the
nicks.

Jolie Louisianne - Posted - 05/27/2011:  23:45:39

This thread has gone every which way, but in reference to the original questions, your bridge placement can
have an e ect on intonation, but not in the way you may think.  Playing in tune is a matter of listening and
responding to what you are hearing, making micro adjustments as you go along.  So anything that interferes
with you quickly hearing and sensing and responding to if you are in tune can a ect a particular player's
capacity to "play in tune".  A well made violin is easier to play then a bad one.  They say on a good instrument it
is hard to play a bad note.  This applies to set up as well (although maybe to a lesser degree).  What is
happening is that all the feedback that you need to quickly hear / sense and respond to a note being in tune or
out of tune is optimized on a good instrument /set up (harmonics, clarity of vibration, sympathetic vibration of
other strings, vibration of the neck / body etc).  So if your bridge moves and this throws o  the instrument's
ability to give you good / immediate / clear feedback, then this can make it more di cult to play in tune.  If your
instrument is not good or well set up, it will be more di cult to play in tune for many people for this reason.

3 ddles - Posted - 07/14/2011:  09:22:00

boy, alot of people replied to this question.. i have but 2 points, one is... half way on any string instrument
should be very valid..and 2,, where is the business end of the nut,,i would think where the string actually sits,
this is worth a millimeter in itself...my ngers dont seem to mind too much forfward and aft a mm or so. but
/
half way just seems correct no matter what length of neck...ever heard of 48mm from the bride to the tailpiece
point. some say put the tailpiece even with the saddle. some say 'how can it matter', i say "with a violin,
everything matters and makes a di erence"...

transplant - Posted - 07/14/2011:  11:13:29

Business edge of the nut is the side facing the ngerboard, where the strings should make a clean straight leap
from their shallow grooves into open space above the board. Not sure I see how there is room for more than
about a tenth or twentieth of a millimeter of di erence there. If there is too much of a funnel shape to the
groove at that edge, then things can get weird.

I start with about 55 mm between bridge and tailpiece fret, depending on open string length, which plinks a fth
and a couple octaves above the main speaking length. Same for tailpieces with built-in tuners; I hardly ever use
outboard ne tuners. I did end up shortening the tailgut on my ddle so the afterlength had a atter plink, but
that seemed to make things too wild and wolfy, so I eased it o some, back to a fth or just a hair at. Our
recent wet weather may have something to do with the wild sound too. Maybe my ddle is just mad at me for
spending too much time with the viola.