Ian McEwan

Author(s): Patrick McGrath and Ian McEwan

Source: BOMB, No. 33 (Fall, 1990), pp. 14-16
Published by: New Art Publications
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profile IanMcEwan
writing

IanMcEwanis theauthor oftwostorycollections, a number Patrick McGrath: ColdWarBerlinis a

plausibleandfamiliar settingforan
playsandscreenplays,
oftelevision andfournovels:
a libretto, espionagenovel,butat thesame timeit's
"TheCementGarden";"TheComfort ofStrangers"; "The a zoned,sectored,occupiedcity,littered
withruinsandhauntedbymemoriesof
ChildinTime";and,mostrecently, "TheInnocent" violence.Wasthistheattraction ofBerlin
(Doubleday,May1990),a brilliant,
vividly macabrebookbuilt as a setting?
Ian McEwan: Notreally.The attraction
around twocentralimages:a tunnelbeingdugunderColdWar originally was to Berlininthepresent.I
Berlin, topermit
itsfunction theBritish andAmericans to was therein 1987,whenI hadalready
decidedto writea novelset intheCold
eavesdrop ontheirRussian"allies";anda pairofextremely War,butat thattimeI hadn'tanyclearidea
heavysuitcases-Theseareschlepped roundthecityforwhat oftheexactperiod.Whatattractedme
oftheColdWarin
seemsaninterminable lengthoftimebya mild-mannered thenwas thereification
termsoftheWall,andtheabsurdity ofit,
Englishman calledLeonard;hisdiscomfiturelargelyresults thebanality ofit,thefactthateverybody
from thefactthatthesuitcasescontain thedismembered steeredtheirlivesarounditquite
efficiently, andyettherewerethedogs,
corpseofanoafcalledOtto.I talkedtoIanMcEwanabouthis therakedsand,theguns- themost
newbookinthelobbyoftheBerkshire Place.A harpist incredible investment oftechnology,
to preventpeoplefrom
deadlytechnology,
plucked inthebackground.
softly simplycrossingfromone streetto the
other.It wasn'tuntilmuchlaterthatI
chose theperiod,themid-Fifties, andthat
cameafterI saw a referenceinPeter
Wright's "Spycatcher" to thetunnel.The
idea was thenlodgedinmymindthatI
couldwritea novelset intheColdWar
whichwouldconcludewiththebeginning
oftheendoftheColdWar,andthatthis
wouldbe mirrored insome personal
reconciliation.
PM: You'vesaidelsewherethatthe
Veniceof"The Comfort ofStrangers"was
a stateofmindas muchas a physical
locale. I wonderiftheBerlinof"The
Innocent"becameforyoua stateofmind
also, an analogueofpostwar
consciousness?
'IM: Berlinwas likea fridgeina way,a
deep freeze,inthattheposturesofthe
combatants inWorldWarII werefrozenin
place in Berlin.So itwas likehistory held
inlimbo.The periodinwhichthenovelis
set was a timewhentheBritishEmpire
was dissolving:thewarhadmadeus
virtually penniless,andtheEmpirewas
coming apart forinternal reasonstoo,and
themantlewas passingto theAmericans,
whohadstrengthened theireconomy
enormously through thewar.So I was
interestedinwriting a novelthatwas
aboutthismomentofcrossover,justa
yearbeforetheSuez Crisis,a moment
whenan Englishman couldno longer
afford thatsortofcool andeasy
superiority towardsAmericansexpressed
by,say,theheroof"The Loved One."
Suddenly, theAmericansseemedto have
thestyle,theyseemed to havethe
confidence, to be takinglargerstrides
aroundtheplace.
PM: One facetoftheAmericansinthe
novelis theirabilityto suppressthepast,
intheformofLeonard'ssuitcases.
IM: Well,forgetfulness, I think,
is an
important ingredient insustaining the
myth of innocence, and I thinkinnocence

PatrickMcGrathis a contributingeditorof
BOMB. An excerptfromhis new novel,"Spider/'
appears in this issue.

14 BOMB

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is a verydouble-edged matter.Terrible
thingshavebeen committed initsname.I
ofteninvokethememoryofPresident
Cartergivinga speechaftertheIranians
hadtakentheAmericanhostages,in
whichhe saidthat"nowAmericahas lost
itsinnocence."It intrigued me to hearthat
mythagain summoned of
up, thiscountry
that'sbeeninvolved intwoworldwars,
andtheVietnamWar,andtheKoreanWar,
andhas itsfingers inmillions ofpies
aroundtheglobe- howitcancallup this
genieofinnocence;andI thinkitrequires
a quitedetermined rewriting ofhistory, or
erasureofhistory, to do so. In manyways,
I thinkthisis also trueoftheBritish,
although I don'tthinkthatmythsof
innocenceare quiteso powerful inBritain.
Probablyan oldercivilization can'tsustain
suchan idea. Butyes, I thinkinnocenceis
a veryloadedandpoisonedwordwhen
one'stalking aboutnations.I thinkitwas
de Gaullewhosaidthat"nationsand
governments haveno morals,therefore no
innocence." Theyactoutofself-interest.
PM: Youmention a reconciliationat the
endofthenovel,yetyourcharacter,
Leonard,neveractuallygetsto America
fora reunionwithMaria,thewomanhe
lovedinBerlinbackin1955.
IM: Well,I've leftitopento thereaderto
decideifLeonardis notactuallyaboutto
die. Attheendofthenovelhe's sixty-
seven,has a heartcondition, andis left
withhiseyes closedslumpedon a benchin
theshadeofa tree.I'm notsureanyway
thatLeonardinanysense deservesMaria.
He's a manwhogoes on protesting his
innocencewithout everreallyexamining
hisguilt:havingbeeninvolvedinat leasta
manslaughter, andhavingbetrayedhis
country, andbyan actofextraordinary
paranoiarejectedthewomanhe loves,
because he suspectsherofhavingan
affair,he stillmanagesto leave Berlinwith
an idea ofhisinnocenceintact.He's a
worrying instanceofa manwhomakesno
use ofhistory. Thereis a degreeof
reconciliation,butit'sa reconciliation very
muchagainstthebackground ofwasted
time.I wentoverto Berlinas soonas the
Wallstartedto comedown,inNovember
oflastyear;I'd finished thenovelinJune,
andto myamazementI foundmyself at
Potsdammerplatz, whichis where
LeonardimagineshisreunionwithMaria.
I foundmyself at Potsdammerplatz at six
o'clockon a Sundaymorning, the12thof
November, watching a craneliftup a huge
chunkoftheWall,andthenI was going
through thebreachintheWallwithmy
<vifeandtenthousandotherpeople.
Derhapsbecause ofthatmomentI rather
dingto, or exaggerate,thesense of
reconciliation thatlies at theendofthe
lovel. Certainly as I wentthrough and
:rossedintoNo-Man's-Land,crossedthe
rakedsandthathadbeen clearedofmines,
[ hada veryambivalent sense ofthe
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Leonardwiththesuitcases
is a manburdenednotjust
butmetaphorically
literally
witha memory.
moment:itwas joyful,itwas
extraordinary, itwas cause forcelebration,
butalso, iftheWallhadcomedownso
easilyandwe couldcomethrough like
this,thenwhaton earthwas itdoingthere
forso long?Anda sense ofwastewas
very,verystrong.I hopethenovel
catchesthatsense, whichis whyI couldn't
grantLeonarda simplereunionwith
Maria.I wantedthenovelto havethis
double-edgedfeeling,thisbittersweet
feeling,thatat lasthe'd seen hisway
through, thathe'd been wrongto mistrust
her,thattherewas a certainkindoftruth
anda lessonlearned.Butalso hislifehad
goneby,he was sixty-seven. That,for
me, was theWfoll comingdowntoo,itwas
nota simplematterofunalloyed joy,itwas
a momentinwhichyougetthesense that
a wholegeneration, or twogenerations,
hadlosttime,hadlostopportunity.
PM: Wouldyoutalkabouttherelationship
Leonardhas withOtto,Maria'sex-
husband,whois killedinherapartment
andwhose corpsethengivesLeonard
suchtrouble?
IM: I hadtheidea ofLeonardas an
ordinary kindofa guycarrying within
himself theverydestructiveness thatwas
thereinOtto. In manywaysOttois a kind
ofdoppelganger; he's thatdemonwrit
largethatis also inLeonard,and,I would
argue,inallofus. WhenOtto'sdiscovered
asleep inthewardrobe,there'sa moment
whenLeonardleaves offarguingwith
Mariaandgoes to contemplate thisman,
andhe thinksto himself:"She chose him,
andthenshe chose me. Ourfatesare
somehowboundtogether.She's boundme
to thisman."Then whenthefatalfight
startsintheapartment, Leonardfinds
himself inthemiddleofa maritalrow,and
it'sdescribedpurelyintermsofwarfare, a
gunbattle.This is carriedon laterwhen
Leonardis facingtheterribleact of
dismembering Ottoandsees Ottofrom
thepointofviewofa bomberaimingat a
target.In alltheseindications ofviolence,
inthefight, inthedismemberment scene,
whatI'm trying to suggestis thatwe stand
at theend oftheEuropeancentury, andin
itssocialmemoryare extraordinary feats
ofviolenceintheslaughteroftwoworld
warsandtheassociatedgenocides.
PM: One is verypowerfully engagedby
thedismemberment scene.
IM: Ifyou'retrying to invokea sense of
ordinary peoplecaughtup interribleacts
ofviolence,youhaveto do itina waythat
actuallygenerates moraldread.Stylizedor
manneredviolence,likethekindyousee
on television,wherepeoplejackknife
conveniently overtheirgunfights, would
simplybe a kind of pornography.
PM: Thenthere'sthelong-drawn-out
sequenceinwhichLeonardattemptsto
disposeofthesuitcasescontaining the
dismembered partsofOtto'scorpse.
IM: Leonardwiththesuitcasesis a man
burdenednotjustliterally but
metaphorically witha memory. Europeans
Fall 1990 15
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carrythesesuitcases;there'shardlya life,
still,inEuropethatisn'tmassively
transformed bythewar,or the
displacements surrounding thewar.These
are thesuitcasesthatarrivefinally inthe
otherbitoftheplot,theColdWarbitof
theplot,backinthetunnel.That'smeant
to close a circle,to suggestthatthe
freezing ofposturesabsorbsbackinto
itselftheviolencewhichwas heldin.
Those suitcasesare takenbackintothe
tunnellikesomething beingabsorbedback
intoitself,so thatwhatprecededtheCold
War,thehotwar,inwhich50, 60, 70
million peopledied,notonlyincombator
intheFinalSolution,butalso ingenocides
allup anddownthecentury - somehowit
was important to takethisbackintothe
ColdWar,to see thattheColdWarwas
likeviolencefrozenintheact. Now that
theColdWaris over,youwillreallysee, I
think,thatthatEuropeandemon,that
"Otto,"willstalktheplace once more.I
don'tthinkit'sa matterofsimple
jubilation. Anti-Semitism, forexample,
has emergedquitespectacularly in
France,buttherehavebeen other
attacks,swastikasbeingdaubedon walls
innorthLondon,gravesbeingdesecrated
intheSovietUnion.Thereare oldethnic
hatredsandrivalriesemerginginCentral
Europe.Wedo havethisfantastic
destructive capacity,whichstandsinstark
contrastto thegreattriumphs of
Europeancivilization. So I thinkthenovel
is trying to say,well,here'sa loveaffair,
theverybest ofwhatwe can achieve,and
here'sthisterribleact ofviolence,whichis
theveryworst.Europeanslivethis
intensedoublelife.Theycreated,for
example,thepoliticalcultureof
individuality,andyettheypractice
genocideon a scadethatis unequaledin
anyothertimeor place. It'sthattwo-faced
natureofEuropeancivilization I was trying
to hintat ina person,andmaybewe can
onlyunderstand thesethingsifwe bring
themto a personallevel.
PM: Unlessthathappens,do yoususpect
thatEuropeis doomedto repeatits
mistakes?
IM: Well,I'm staggeredwhenI see
picturesinnewspapersofswastikason
pavements.I think, where'shistory?
Whereis a sense ofhistory? I thinkI then
get a sense ofother human beingsas
automatons - itstrikessucha chillinmy
heart,thatwe mighthaveto runthrough
allthatagain.Andknowing too thatitwas
alwaysthere, thatthe Cold Warsimply
imposeda rigidfalseorderthat
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Forgetfulness,
I think,is an
important
ingredientin
sustainingthe
suppressedallthesepossibilities
onlythepossibilities
- not
offreeexpression,
mythof innocence
butalso thepossibilities offreehatred.
No, I thinktheEuropean21stCenturyis
goingto be verydifficult. I don'tsee it
simplyas democracyextending
everywhere, allpeace andprosperity,
because thereis thishumanproblemof
ancienthatreds.The ColdWarprevented
us fromconfronting this.Weneverhadthe
chanceto faceup to whatWorldWarII
unleashed,andtheloss wasn'tonlyinthe
East, itwas intheWesttoo.
PM: In whatsense? Because theWest
was contaminated byparanoia?
IM: Well,I thinkthatthought was the
contaminant ina way.The ColdWarmade
sophisticated positionsdifficult.Ifyou
wereinthepeace movement intheWest,
forexample,youwereclearlyaidingthe
Kremlin.Ifyouwerea dissidentworking
fortheextensionofpolitical rightsinthe
SovietUnion,thenyouwereclearlyacting
intheinterestoftheCIA. It was thissort
ofsimplevisionandthought thatrobbed
intellectuallifeofitsrichness.It puta lot
ofpeopleina falseopposition.It'svery
hardto think clearlywhentheworldgets
dividedup.
PM: The conceptofinnocenceseems
finallyto acquireitscomplexity inthe
novelbecause twosets ofopposition are
invoked:one is innocenceas against
experience,theother,innocenceas
againstguilt.Leonardmovesthrough
questionsofsexualinnocence,political
innocence,moralinnocence,legal
innocence - allsplicedtogetherso thata
tremendous richnessanddensity
accumulatesaroundtheidea.
IM: It'scurious,because I wrotethe
novelwithno clearsense ofthetitle,andI
oftenwonderifI hadn'tcalledit"The
Innocent" whetherwe wouldbe talking
aboutitinthisway.Titlesbecomevery
powerful, controlling metaphors, and
unlessyouhavea titleinthebeginning
whichis helpingyouwritethebookit's
verydifficult, retrospectively, to namea
book,because itinvolvesdecidingwhat
it'sabout.Evenwith"The Innocent"I
neverfeltcompletely at ease.
PM: Is thatstilltrue?
IM: It is stilltruebecause I findthat
we'retalking onlyofinnocence,whereas
fora longtimeI wantedto callit"The
SpecialRelationship," forexample.Fora
longtimeI wantedto callit,ratherflatly,
"The Letter, inBerlin."
MCGMTH
PATRICK