Baha’i Blogcast with Rainn Wilson - Ep.

48: A Declaration of the Bab Conversation with Nader Saiedi

(Transcript)

R: Hello there Baha’i Blogcast listeners, it’s me Rainn Wilson, your host. Thank you so much to Baha’i
Blog for producing and sponsoring our ongoing podcasts about all things Baha’i.

This is a very special episode that we’re “dropping” this week - dropping being music industry lingo.
It is an interview with Dr Nader Saiedi about the Declaration of the Bab - one of the most important
Holy Days in the Baha’i Faith. And for those of you that don’t know much about the Baha’i Faith, the
reason that it’s important is the entire religious movement started on this fateful evening, May 23rd
1844, when the Bab, the forerunner to the founder of the Baha’i Faith, Bahaʼu'llah, declared His
Mission as a Prophet of God, as a Divine Messenger, a Spiritual Teacher to a young seminarian
student, religious leader in his own right - Mulla Husayn. We’ll find out more about that in this
interview, although I want to say that this interview is kind of like a graduate-level course in the
Declaration of the Bab. So if you're just learning about the Baha’i Faith, you may want to seek some
more information about this special Holy day that’s a bit more rudimentary because Dr Saiedi is a
specialist in this area. He is one of the world’s foremost teachers and scholars of the Writings of the
Bab, the teachings of the Bab. He wrote the super important, incredible, mind-blowing book called
“Gate of the Heart”, it’s about the Writings of the Bab, digging into them. As he says in this
interview, only 1% of the Bab’s Writings have been translated into English.

So, the Bab was a merchant, Siyyid ʻAli Muhammad from Shiraz, Iran, and in 1844 He proclaimed His
Message to Mulla Husayn. We’re so privileged to be celebrating that this weekend and it was my
sincere honour to be talking to the incredible mind of Dr Nader Saiedi about this extraordinary
evening, its special-ness and its significance. So, I hope you enjoy our conversation. Thanks so much.

Ladies and gentlemen of Baha’i Blogcast, another special episode. We did a Ridvan talk recently with
Tom Price and now for the incredible Holy Day of the Declaration of the Bab, where it all began,
where else should we turn but to the preeminent scholar of the Bab, the Writings of the Bab,
Babism, Dr Nader Saiedi from UCLA is here with us. Author, humanitarian, wonderful human being,
public speaker, translator, researcher, thank you Dr Saiedi for being with us today.

N: Thank you, I’m very happy to be here.

R: This is a very wide-open topic. Please feel free to speak wherever your heart moves you. But, I
thought that it would be really helpful, for the Baha’is around the world, for the friends of the Baha’i
Faith around the world, to hear from your mind, from your heart, from your mouth, what makes the
Declaration of the Bab so special. So, can you take us back to the very beginning: What is life like at
the time of the Bab in Persia? What is the culture like, the historical landscape of the time, and what
was the spiritually charged feeling in the air during the time of Mulla Husayn in his search for the
Bab?

N: The Declaration of the Bab takes place at a unique historical time, both in terms of Iran as well as
the history of the West. 1844 for example is the time that (Karl) Marx began his major works, it’s just
one year after Feuerbach has written his major work, which in a sense created modern materialistic
theory. And they argue that God is created in the image of human beings rather than human beings
made in the image of God. And they say that God is something that humans have created, only
humans exist. It’s also the same year Nietzsche is born. All of these 3 figures that are mentioned -
Marx, Feuerbach, Nietzsche - they all have this particular point in common: that they think that the
age of religion, of spiritual consciousness, orientation and so on, is over, and the source of the
various problems that humanity has ultimately goes back to revelation, religion and these ideas. And
therefore liberating human beings from this illusion, this delusion in their minds, would be key for
the emancipation of human beings. 

In the case of Iran, this is both socially, political, religiously a very unique time. The year 1844 is
equal to 1260 of the Islamic lunar calendar. This is a very important turning point in the history of
Shia Islam. Majority of Iranians were Shia Muslims at the time and they continue to be so right now.
For Shia Islam, after the prophet Muhammad, the successors are 12 Imams. And the 12th Imam is a
person who is in hiding and would at sometime come back to fill the world with justice and so they
are expecting for the coming of this 12th Imam. 

But the day or the year that the 11th Imam passed away - and this 12th Imam, who according to Shia
idea was just a child and He went into occultation - was the Islamic year of 260. Which means that
the year 1844 was exactly 1000 lunar years after the occultation of the 12th Imam that the Shia
Islam are waiting for His return and His appearance. 

Of course, the Quran mentions that each day of God is equivalent to 1000 years according to the
human calendar. And so, 1000 is very important symbolically. And so expectations of the people for
the coming of this 12th Imam psychologically meant that 1260 or 1844 can be the time that this
divine intervention would take place and that would cause the whole world to become just. Problem
is that the actual Iran of the time was the essence and the embodiment of the opposite of this idea.
Namely Iran, which once was one of the most important centres of civilization prior to Islam and
even after Islam, it became key for creation of Islamic sciences and culture. And for about three or
four centuries was also a very advanced culture. 

After 14th century, 15th century when the West is starting to have modernity and develop, the
Iranian culture and politics and religious consciousness goes towards fanaticism and instead of
moving towards progress, science and enlightenment, goes towards the exact opposite pattern of
intolerance, despotism of the clerics, of course political despotism, increasing corruption and the
new definition of Islam, which eliminates any possibility of contact or communication with the rest
of the world and other cultures. So 19th century Iran is a time that Iranians believe that they are not
only the centre of civilization, which they used to be in the distant past. But also because they are a
Shia country so they are in accordance with the Will of God. Therefore, they are supported by God
and they are victorious. And so, the 19th century is a time that Iran has encountered the West with a
modernity. Prior to that it is really unaware what is happening in the West. 

But the form of this encounter is through with war with Russia. And therefore there are two wars
with Russia. And they are, particularly the second one, initiated by the clerics. The result of these
two wars in 1814 and 1828 was completely shocking to Iranians. Namely, instead of winning against
the infidels, they were defeated in a very humiliating fashion. Iran lost at least one-third of its
territory. A humiliating peace treaty was signed which was very difficult. So this middle of the 19th
century is the time that Iranians for the first time are becoming conscious that there is something
wrong. They see Iran as a country which is weak, which is humiliated, which is defeated and
controlled by the infidels - in this case increasingly the Russians and the British. And therefore the
idea that this is the time that maybe divine intervention would take place and Iranians would be
saved becomes psychologically very powerful. 

So this is the context of 1844. I'll add one other thing which is very important, crucial. The 19th
century is a century that one school of Shiism becomes dominant in Iran. It is called “Usuli” school or
principles school. And this is the school which believes that ordinary Muslims or ordinary Shi’is
cannot think by themselves and for themselves. They are considered to be children and incapable of
thinking for themselves. So the idea is that those who can think and those who can know about the
Will of God are the clerics. And therefore the idea is that all believers have to follow, imitate,
emulate a particular high cleric. And so the 19th century becomes a time that the masses of the
believers of Iranians are integrated into the mosque hierarchy. Because the idea is that ordinary
Iranians cannot know anything. And so for even details of individual lives, they have to ask the
clerics. This increased tremendously the political, the economic, the financial and the social power of
the clerics. So the 19th century is at the same time a century that Iranians are becoming more and
more dependent on the clerics. And becoming further and further from the culture of independent
thinking which is required for a modern society. 

R: Wow, that is that's an amazing background and I had never heard it put quite that way. That’s a
really unique historical slant on the background of this time. So, fast forward, we have Mulla Husayn,
an Ahmadi, is that what they were known as? Followers of Shaykh Ahmad?

N: Mulla Husayn - his real name is Mohammad Husayn. In Baha’i literature we know him as Mulla
Husayn - his real name is Mohammad Husayn, and there was no last name at that time. No Iranian
had a last name. Last name is a modern idea, and within Iran after 1934 this became the law and
Iranians have last names. In the past, there’s only a first name and people would be distinguished by
their type of occupation, or the city that they come from, things like that. So, Mulla Husayn is from
the city of Boshruyeh, in the Northern Province of Khorasan in Iran. Because he is from the city of
Boshruyeh, so he’s famous as Boshruyehi, or Boshru'i. Namely, Mulla Husayn, who was really
Muhammad Husayn, from the city of Boshruyeh, 

R: But he was a member of this particular sect of Shiite Islam, the Ahmadis, looking for the advent of
the Promised One. Can you talk a little bit about his background, where he came from, and what
propelled him on this journey to eventually find the Bab in Shiraz?

N: As I mentioned, the 19th century was a century of the dominance of this Usuli school which was
really emphasising tradition and safeguarding tradition and increasing the authority of the clerics. It
was ultimately traditionalism to become more and more powerful. There was a school of thought in
Shiism, which was very important in the early 19th century to mid 19th century. This is called the
Shaykhi school. It’s called Shaykhi school because the founder of this school is famous as Shaykh
Ahmad. Shaykh Ahmad from the city of al-Asah. His birthplace was the city of Asah, between Bahrain
and Saudi Arabia at the present time. And so because he was famous as Shaykh Ahmad, so this
school of thought became famous as Shaykhi school of thought. After him, his disciple, Sayyid Kazim,
who was from the city Rasht, so Sayyid Kazim Rashti, he became the successor. Both of these
persons were really reformists and intellectual types. So they created a more informed, more
enlightened reinterpretation of Islam and Shiism. And their ideas to a large extent were the opposite
of the traditionalist worldview. It emphasised a more charismatic understanding of authority and
religion. Shaykh Ahmad for instance, argued that his source of knowledge and his authority is not
based upon the fact that he has studied in so many religious seminaries and has all these licenses
from varieties of the high clerics. He said that the source of his knowledge is a dream that he had, in
which the 12th Imam in the dream taught him different things. So the idea was that not tradition,
but charisma - the direct encounter of God and representative of God - became the basis of his
knowledge and his authority. And of course, he reinterpreted a number of prevalent Shia ideas. One
of his ideas which is very important is about this 12th Imam. Because for the generality of the Shia
Imams, this 12th Imam is physically in the world. And at that time, he was 1000 years old, or maybe
1000 plus 3 or 4 years more. And the idea is that you may even pass by this Imam and you may
never recognize that he is the Imam. So the idea was that he was alive in the world but he does not
identify himself.
R: Let me get this straight. Are they saying to the majority of the Shiites, there is literally a 1000 year
old who has come back and is among us? I mean, he looks regular, he doesn’t look like he’s 1000
years old...but that there is a kind of literal interpretation to that aspect of the scripture?

N: Yes...of course the concept of Imam does not exist in the Quran. That’s why the vast majority of
the Muslims are Sunni Muslims. They don’t believe in any of the Imams. There isn’t a first Imam, 2nd
Imam, let alone the 12th Imam. They believed that the Promised One would come and that is
normally called “Mahdi”, the one who is guided by God. But they don’t think this Mahdi is a person
who has been living for 1000 years. They believe these are all superstitions and they look down at
the Shi’is for these superstitions. But for the Shia Islam - and Shia Islam also has a variety of sects -
the Shia Islam which believes in 12 Imams..yes that is right now, not just in the time of the Bab, right
now the ordinary Shi’is believe that the Imam is physically alive and present in the world right now
and He is more than 12 centuries old. He doesn’t introduce himself...and that he looks like a person
who is younger than 40 years of age. But he is in reality twelve hundred years or more. And when he
decides, by Divine decree that the time is to appear, He will take His sword and God will send all
these angels to help Him and they would kill everybody in this world unless they convert to Shiism.
So all these Muslims who are Sunni Muslims, all of them would be murdered without exception, and
also all of the Jews and the Christians, everybody. And this is their concept of “justice”. Because the
12th Imam is supposed to bring the reign of Justice. And justice means that Shia Islam becomes the
dominant. In the history of Islam, the Shia Islam believes that they are the legitimate sect of Islam
and therefore the Imams should have control of the state, but of course in reality the Sunnis were in
charge of state and Shi’is were a persecuted minority. And it is for that reason to a large extent, this
12th Imam, the way it is fantasised and understood, to a large extent it is the psychological,
sociological projection of the need for revenge against particularly the Sunni Muslim majority who
have persecuted the Shi’is. So, the whole idea of this 12th Imam is the idea that finally the Shia Islam
becomes dominant, takes over state. And of course, the whole world also becomes Shi’i. So, this
literal, physical understanding of the 12th Imam, which is a very difficult idea - if you are not a Shia
Muslim you would laugh and it and would be a surprise as to how anybody can believe in things like
that. But that’s the dominant, normal, prevalent idea.

Now returning to Shaykh Ahmad Ahsaʾi...

R: But if I may interject, it’s not that dissimilar to contemporary evangelical Christianity, that views
the imminent return of Christ in which only true believers are brought to the Holy Kingdom of God
and everyone else suffers and goes to Hell and are brutally slaughtered and it’s the end times. Both
are very literally interpretations of prophecy that are very violent and pretty cut-and-dry. Like,
justice means “everyone else dies”...you know that’s “justice”. Only the “true believers” live and
everyone else dies....it’s a rather simplistic, kind of old-fashioned primitive view of justice, because
that’s what used to happen with justice in the past. There would be a city that has “Its” God, and
there would be another city that has “its” God, they would conquer, and kill all the believers and
destroy all the idols of that God and now the new God took over both cities and that was considered
“justice”.

N: To a logical sense, what you say is accurate. And all the fanatical groups who are very literal in
terms of understanding of scriptures and prophecies and so on, they have a number of common
orientations and usually their world view becomes the millenarian world view but they
expect...becomes very violent. In the case of the 12th Imam however, the idea that this Imam has
been born in very miraculous fashion - which I didn’t talk about - very strange, all miraculous things,
and that he continues to be physically alive and so on, this is an added, a much more exaggerated
element. But you are right, any religious group who have a literal understanding of religious texts
and a literal understanding of the time of deliverance and justice and so on, usually they share very
violent ideas. What was important about the Shaykhi school, the Shaykhi school came up with this
unique idea - they made a distinction between two different types of “body”. So there is the material
body - right now I see my material body, these hands and face and so on is material body. But there
is another body, a sort of spiritual idea. Namely, when you are sleeping and dreaming, in your
dreams, you are going places with your body, touch things, you experience physical things. But the
body that your dreams and fantasies is operating is not a material body. It is “body” but it is a
spiritual body that does not consist of elements and so on. So Shaykhi Ahmad and Sayyid Kazim, they
argued that the 12th Imam, he exists and continues to exist through his spiritual body not his
material body. Material body is gone, like everything else. So he’s continuing to live in the world
through his spiritual body. Which means that this makes it possible to believe that according to this
idea, when he wants to reappear, then he would assume a new material body. That means that he
would have a new father and mother, and would be born in a place, and have a young body, not a
one thousand year old body and so on. And this was the key factor which made the students of this
particular school of thought much more open-minded about the concept of the 12th Imam. And for
that reason, the first converts to the cause of The Bab are all from this Shaykhi school of thought.
The first premise of that is that it is now possible that somebody that we know, this person has been
born recently, and from this city and from this father and mother, to be the embodiment and
realisation of that “spiritual body”. As you can see, this was a unique reform which created the
possibility of new ways of thinking for this school of thought.

R: That’s fascinating. So it opened up the possibility of someone like the Bab and the return of the
12th Imam to exist. But you were saying about Mulla Husayn in all of this, in going about his
journey…

N: Mulla Husayn was a very interesting and unique person and we could have our entire interview or
many interviews just about him. A few things that we know about him: one is that he was a very
deep scholar and also, he was great in rhetoric, giving lectures and engaging in debates. And so
whenever very important figures of Shia Islam in Iran, who were very powerful, opposed the Shaykhi
school, Sayyid Kazim, who was the leader of the Shaykhi school, he would send Mulla Husayn, who
was very young, to go and engage in debate with these people and convince them of the truth of the
Shaykhi ideas and that Shaykhism is not a heretical school and so on. And so, before the Declaration
of the Bab, he had been in Iran to two different places, engaging in debates with these really
prominent, very, very powerful...one of them is the figure in Isfahan, who was the wealthiest man in
the whole Iran, probably after the king. He’s a high cleric but incredibly wealthy. And of course
politically powerful. So what is important and interesting is that this young scholar comes and
engages in debates and convinces these people. So when he comes back from his trips, from his
missions, at that time he sees that his teacher, Sayyid Kazim, has passed away recently and therefore
they are looking for the successor of his with an idea that his successor might not be an ordinary
man, it might be actually the 12th Imam. So Mulla Husayn is coming to Iran...And of course if you
come from Karbala - which was the centre of this Shaykhi school - to Iran, if you come through the
sea you would come from the south, and the first main city would be Shiraz. So they have to go
through Shiraz. He comes and stays in Shiraz, and he recognises the Bab and becomes the first
believer of the Babi religion. In terms of propagation of the Babi religion, nobody was as active, as
effective as this Mulla Husayn. Mulla Husayn, wherever he went, hundreds and hundreds of people
would convert to the cause of the Bab. Because of his charismatic personality, his loving personality,
his eloquence, his knowledge, his determination, charisma...so he’s a very unique individual.
However, let me say a few things about this Mulla Husayn, which you might not know much about.
One is the very important fact that the Bab Himself has emphasised that in His various writings a
number of times in different situations. What the Bab has emphasised is that Mulla Husayn, when he
comes to see the Bab in Shiraz in the first encounter that they have, the Bab says that he didn’t have
a shoe and his shirt didn’t have any buttons. Also in another place He says that he didn’t have even a
very low level standard of coins in his pocket. Namely, in other words, contrary to the ideas that we
might have of these people, you know that they travel and go to a hotel and you know they have a
comfortable life and so on, Mulla Husayn, or Quddus, or people like that, they were in utmost
poverty. And they didn’t care. They had the true wealth. This is a very important thing to remember.
Baha’u’llah in His Hidden Words says that “We have created you rich, why dost thou abase thyself?”.
And this richness is not material richness. It’s not to have a lot of money, or gold or properties and so
on. This richness means spiritual capacities, spiritual perfection and so on. Mulla Husayn is the
embodiment of this richness, this incredible wealth that he had. But this wealth was with total
disregard for material attachment. He knew that the time of the Day of God is near and that was
something that gave meaning to his life. And so finding the Promised one, the Beloved, and then
devoting his life to realise those spiritual values and spiritual principles in the world, transforming
the world so that the world becomes the mirror of the Kingdom of God - this was the meaning of life
for Mulla Husayn. 

One very interesting thing in the Writings of the Bab about Mulla Husayn is that he becomes defined
as a light, “nur”. This is very important. In Islamic tradition, there is a very important statement in
which the first Imam, Ali, defines truth in terms of five statements, and the fifth statement defines
truth really as light. This light that dawns from the morn of eternity and the traces of that appear on
the temples of unity. In the Book of Certitude, Baha’u’llah quotes some of these definitions of Truth.
The Bab mentioned that these five definitions of the truth really are the symbol of the five first years
of the Revelation of the Bab Himself. Namely, the truth of the Bab would manifest itself in a gradual
fashion, in stages within these five years. In the fifth year, it becomes completely explicit, the truth
of His Revelation. The point is that the Bab, when He in His various works like the seven proofs,
discussing these five years of His Revelation, He talks about the year five, which is the year of light.
When He was writing that, the year five had not come yet, so He writes as a prophecy for the future,
that when this light will come, people will become perturbed and there will be persecution and
difficulties. In His later writings, He shows the realisation of this was Mulla Husayn. In Shaykh
Tabarsi, he is martyred, but the question of light...Mulla Husayn becomes a symbol of that. For the
Bab, light is a symbol of truth, expression and revelation of truth. But at the same time, it is a symbol
of martyrdom and self-sacrifice. He says, look at a candle, how it sacrifices itself in order to illumine
the others. So in the year five, this is the time of Badasht, this is the time that the Bab in the
presence of the clerics and crown prince, formally declares His station. And this is the year that the
Bab is sending all these Tablets to various important Babis and in very clear fashion, unveils the truth
of this Revelation and that this is a new religion, and a new age has started and so on. So this year
five, is the year of light. The truth of the Bab and the Babi religion becomes clear. But becoming clear
of this means that a very massive, heightened state of persecution would begin in that year. Prior to
that, the Muslims thought that the Babi religion is just a part of Islam…that it’s a little different, but
is a part of Islam. And for that reason there was persecution, but the persecution was not that
severe. But when it became clear that this is a new religion, it’s abrogation of all the teachings of the
past, all the Islamic laws and so on, and that He’s a new Prophet of God, a new Manifestation of
God. That meant now the clerics and state become determined to destroy, to uproot this
community. And the first expression of this of course is Shaykh Tabarsi and the martyrdom of Mulla
Husayn. So Mulla Husayn was simultaneously the person who was proclaiming the truth of the new
Revelation and he’s also now the first light that is sacrificing itself in order to illumine the others.

R: Wow, that’s amazing, that’s incredible. My mind is really blown. I’m currently re-reading The
Dawn Breakers and it really struck me recently in a section I was reading, how much respect the Bab
gave to Mulla Husayn. Like, Mullá Husayn would come to town, He would send everyone else away
and would just want to meet with him. And the Babis would follow behind Mulla Husayn. Like he
had a very strong position that I don’t think we fully understand. And I know when I was a kid
growing up in the Baha’i Faith, he was always my favourite, because what’s not to like about Mulla
Husayn? He’s got no shoes, he’s debating the top clerics in the country who are incredibly wealthy
and he doesn’t have any coins in his pocket, he’s the first to hear the revelation of the Bab, he’s the
kind of de facto leader for at least five years, and he dies gloriously with his sword. It’s the stuff of
legend. So how does this legend then end up in Shiraz in this fateful conversation with the Bab in
1844?

N: He comes to Iran really in order to search for the successor of Sayyid Kazim, who also can be the
Promised One. So it’s very ambiguous at this time. And partly the Writings of the Bab in the first
three years, namely before that year five, are also ambiguous because people were not ready. They
were thinking the 12th Imam, the Promised One, is a person 1000 years of age at that time and that
he would come with a sword and so on.

R: You speak of this a great deal in your book Gate of the Heart - the gradual unfolding of the Bab’s
Message, how it goes through many different phases until finally He is “I am the Promised One.” But
He doesn’t lead with that. So I’m just reiterating what you’re saying.

N: Yes, you’re right. But that’s of course because the people were not ready. Otherwise the Bab,
although He has spoken in an ambiguous fashion, from the very first day of His revelation, the
conversation that He had with Mulla Husayn, anybody who was perceptive can easily, immediately
understand, that He’s claiming to be the Promised One, claiming to be a Prophet of God. The reason
is that most of the Writings of the Bab, including His first work which is the commentary on the Surih
of Joseph, is written in the language of Divine verses. Divine verses are like the Quran, they are a
form of language in which God is directly speaking. God is speaking directly as a first Person. And
talking with majesty, and might and glory, addressing the Prophet or indirectly addressing the
people and tells them what to do and so on. Divine verses, according to the Quran, can only be
revealed by God. Even the Prophet cannot bring Divine verses. The Prophet can only be the recipient
of Divine verses through an engine. And that means that by the very first day of the Revelation of the
Bab, when He’s writing He’s writing in Divine verses, He’s very explicitly clearly saying that His
station is the station of a Prophet who is in constant communion with God. Otherwise, no Imam,
according to Islam, can ever bring Divine verses. As I mentioned, even the Prophet Himself cannot
bring Divine verses. That’s why in Islam, the words of Prophet Muhammad are sacred, but they are
not the words of God. Only the Quran is the Word of God. They are Divine verses. What happened in
the case of the Bab, was that from the very beginning, most of His writings are written in the form of
Divine verses, constantly. The Quran was revealed over 23 years, one book of Divine verses in 23
years. The Bab always mentions that He reveals the equivalent of the Quran in one week. The point
was that the connection of this revelation with God and Divine verses was not paused, it was
continuous. So although His early writings seem to be ambiguous, if you would be a little bit
perceptive, immediately you would know that from the very beginning His claim is not that He’s an
Imam, or an important person, but that He’s the truth of the Prophets. That is why His writings take
the form of Divine verses.

I wanted to say something to connect the significance of this day, the Declaration of the Bab, and the
discussion of Mulla Husayn. What I want to mention is that in all religions there is one person who
becomes the first believer. And so in this case, in the case of the Babi religion, which really becomes
the beginning of Baha’i religion, this Babi-Baha’i religion, we have also Mulla Husayn as the first
believer. However, there is a fundamental difference. And that’s what distinguishes the role of Mulla
Husayn, the meaning of Mulla Husayn, his theological historical significance, in a way which becomes
completely new. And understanding this really gives us new conceptions about the significance of
this day, of the Declaration of the Bab. Let me explain what I mean by this. If you look at the past
religions, the beginning of religion is not a time that the Prophet of God comes and shares an idea, a
Message of God with the people. The beginning of religion is the time that God has a conversation
with His Prophet. And usually, this Prophet becomes conscious of His prophetic station. Usually the
idea is that He “becomes” the Prophet at that time and He becomes conscious that He’s the Prophet
at that time and that becomes the beginning of the religion. So for Islam, for example, the typical
ideas are that when He receives the first revelation, and He doesn’t know where it is coming from
and He’s very much afraid and so on, but God tells Him that He has a Message and He has to read, in
which Quran becomes the reading, to the people, and so that’s the beginning of Islam. And then of
course, the Prophet comes and shares it with the people and it happens that some person becomes
the first believer. The Bab changed all these things. So in terms of the Writings of the Bab, the
beginning of the Babi religion is not a matter of conversation between God and the Bab. The
beginning of the Babi religion is the moment of conversation between Mulla Husayn and the Bab. In
other words, religion is defined in a new fashion. Religion is not a dialogue between God and His
Prophet, religion becomes a dialogue between God and humanity. Mulla Husayn becomes the
symbol of humanity. And the Bab is of course conveying the Message of God. So, today which
becomes the Declaration of the Bab, becomes the beginning of the Babi religion, not because the
Bab discovers that He is the Prophet - according to His Writings, He knew this a long time before
that. And He mentions in a variety of ways this fact. But that was not the beginning of the Babi
religion. His Prophetic consciousness was not the moment the Babi religion started. Because religion
is defined in a new way. Religion is a dialogue between God and humanity. And so contrary to the
past, that religion becomes an arbitrary Will of God, which is imposed on humanity, and that’s why
all religions thought that they are the last religion, because then religion and its laws have nothing to
do with history or levels of development of humanity. It’s just an arbitrary imposition and so it can
be forever. In the new conception, religion is a dialogue between God and humanity. Both are
participating in the construction of religion. And Mulla Husayn as a symbol of humanity and as the
first person who has become ready for the new stage of the spiritual development of humanity,
becomes part of this dialogue and through this dialogue the new religion emerges. In other words,
the concept of religion now from the Writings of the Bab and after, the Writings of Baha’u’llah,
comes the idea that religion is a living reality which corresponds its form to the particular stage of
development of humanity, the needs of humanity, the requirements of humanity of the age,
creating new potentiality. And once humanity goes beyond this stage, new potentialities can become
realised, new needs are created, then that same religion of God, which is one and the same and is
the same living Word of God, takes a new form and appears as a new religion, appears as a new
Prophet of God. 

And that means religion is not a set of arbitrary ideas. It is the Will of God on the one hand, the
Knowledge of God on the one hand, and the stage of development and the needs of humanity on
the other (hand). So it becomes a dialogue between God and humanity and that’s why no religion
can be the last religion. And that is why religion becomes ultimately in accordance with reason and
science. In other words, the form that the religion takes, must be in accordance with the needs of
humanity, with the stage of development of humanity. It would not be something arbitrary. So for
example, when previous Prophets came, because people were not ready, none of them outlawed
slavery. None of them. But in the Baha’i religion, for the first time, slavery becomes outlawed. Why?
Because humanity has become ready. Otherwise the truth of all previous religions, the truth of that,
was opposed to slavery. But because people were not ready, it could not manifest itself as a legal
principle. But now the question is if the Prophet Muhammad, or if Jesus, or if Moses or if Zoroaster
or if Krishna, any Sacred People of the past, if they would be present right now, what would they say
now? What would be their pronouncements now about the question of religious tolerance? About
the question of the station of women? About the question of slavery and the like? When we think in
that way, then we understand that religion, the Word of God, is a living thing, it’s not a dead static
thing. It’s living, and therefore in accordance with the development of humanity, it takes new
manifestation, new shapes, new forms. Religion becomes something which is historical, which is
dynamic and of course that means it is in accordance with the time and creating new potentialities. 
Mulla Husayn becomes so important for the first time in a way that has never been the case in the
past theological dispensations and discourse, because he becomes a symbol of the new stage of
development of humanity. He participates in the creation of religion. It is this conversation, this
dialogue of God with humanity which is the essence and truth of religion. And so Mulla Husayn
appeared really as an image of God in this participation. 
And that is why in this new stage of development of humanity this religion which begins with the
Bab and culminates very shortly after that with the Writings of Baha’u’llah, becomes a religion in
which the dignity and nobility of human beings are emphasised. And therefore, humans as
reflections of God, now cannot become commodified. They have rights, and they are beautiful and
they have to be treated that way. And that means the social institutions, international relations,
cultural institutions, conception of religion, everything has to be transformed to correspond to this
new definition of human being, as noble, as a reflection of God, which has become possible at this
time. 

I conclude this particular part with mentioning another concept of the Bab. For the Bab, this day, the
day of the Declaration of the Bab, is the Day of Resurrection. He transformed traditional concepts
and gave new meanings to them. In the past, the Day of Resurrection was the end of the world. The
world, the history ends, and then we go to either Heaven or Hell eternally. For the Bab, because
humanity is a spiritual entity and therefore has infinite spiritual perfections and potentialities, which
gradually manifest itself in time, that means according to the Bab, Heaven and Hell are defined in
terms of the realisation or non-realisation of the spiritual potentialities of humanity. So at each stage
of development of humanity, particular potentials can be realised. We are in heaven if we embrace
those values and so those spiritual potentials can be realised. We are in hell if we deprive ourselves
of those spiritual perfections and spiritual self-actualisation. And that means, from the point of view
of the Bab, this is a Day of Resurrection, namely everything that has been in the past has to be
redefined. That traditionalism is gone. That humanity has lived in a particular fad. It is as if it is the
end of the world. It is the beginning of a new stage. New spiritual potentialities have to be
reaffirmed. Later on, for instance, Abdu’l-Baha, who was born on this same night - 23rd of May 1844
is also the time that Abdu'l-Baha is also born. Abdu'l-Baha talks that humanity so far has lived mostly
like an animal on the basis of the laws of struggle for existence. We have been dominated by our
consciousness by varieties of prejudices - religious, racial, national - all different kinds of prejudices,
and for that reason we have looked at others as strangers or as enemies. And therefore, we have
been waring, and exploiting, colonising, murdering and plundering each other. This has been the
dominant pattern of the history of humanity. But for Abdu’l-Baha, we have now arrived at a new
stage. And the time of the Declaration of the Bab is that turning point. This is the Day of
Resurrection. That a new Heaven, a new Earth, is going to be created. That the past forms of culture
are abrogated. And now human beings appear as spiritual beings. Not as animals based on struggle
for existence, but as reflections of love and unity, because that’s the attributes of God. We are
reflections of Divine attributes. This is the whole point of the Bab. If the Bab has said one thing, this
is the one. Namely that, the whole reality, including humans, their truth is the reflection of Divine
attributes. That is why all are one, all are beautiful, all are sacred, all are endowed with rights. Even
nature, the Bab says, that is a reflection of God, and therefore is beautiful and has rights. And so, the
realm of nature has to have its paradise. And humans are responsible to realise this paradise - the
realisation of the potentialities of nature. So the destruction of nature, this becomes forcing nature
to be in hell. And this is a violation of God because everything is a reflection of God. And therefore
you can see that how this Day, this day the Declaration of the Bab, becomes a symbol for this
fundamental transformation of culture, of humanity, a new age is starting. And Mulla Husayn
becomes the occasion, that in a sense symbolising humanity. That’s why the Bab always says that all
the future spiritual culture and civilization, they are all in a sense reflections of Mulla Husayn. Mulla
Husayn as being the first convert to the cause of the Bab, all other converts, all other believers, in a
sense, are created out of Mulla Husayn. And so in a sense, Mulla Husayn, as the Bab says, becomes
the first fruit of the previous culture, previous religion. So Islam, for example, the Bab said is like a
tree; that Prophet Muhammad and God planted this tree. And this gradually became larger and
larger, with leaves and beautiful things, and shade and so on. But ultimately, it has to give fruits. And
the first fruit of the tree of Islam becomes Mulla Husayn. Namely, the fruit of each religion
becomes...the new capacity that is created through Islam, so that humanity can now actualise new
spiritual potentialities. So the new spiritual potentialities, which becomes realised through the Bab,
these potentialities can become possible because of the spiritual advancement that Islam created.
So, the fruit of Islam becomes the Babi religion and Baha’i religion. But Mulla Husayn, in this
particular case, becomes the first fruit of the tree of Islam. And so you can see how interesting is the
symbolic character of Mulla Husayn, of this night, and the significance of it.

R: That’s utterly mind blowing. It’s incredible. I’ve never heard these perspectives being offered
before on this Declaration of the Bab. So, talk about the conversation that evening between Mulla
Husayn and the commentary on the Surih of Joseph. What is the significance of that specific
conversation?

N: At first, during this conversation, specific issues are being discussed. And in terms of the
possibility that the Bab may be the Promised One, which is a shocking idea to Mulla Husayn,
particularly because he was the great scholar and the Bab belonged to this category of merchant. At
that time in Iran, the people of knowledge, intellectuals, scholars, religious scholars, these were the
clerics. And of course, the people of bazaar, the commercial people and so on, are the people of
material attachments, and business and they have no spiritual understanding and so on. So, partly
because of that immediate perception, Mulla Husayn is a bit defensive and shocked. And there are
different reports of the way that Mulla Husayn became converted to the cause of the Bab. Some of
the people who have written about this have talked as if Mulla Husayn was not really convinced and
it took him a number of days. Some have said three days, some have said five days. One source
writes forty days, it took him so that finally he becomes convinced that the Bab is the Promised One.
All of these are incorrect. All of these are incorrect because the Bab Himself has explained to us what
has happened. The best source of history about the Babi religion and the Bab and so on, is the
Writings of the Bab from Himself. But unfortunately, the world is not familiar with the Writings of
the Bab and so we cannot judge a lot of these historical disputes and controversies and so on in
terms of these Writings.

R: And speaking of those Writings, and just for the listening audience, how much did the Bab write
and what percentage has been translated into English so we have clarity around that?

N: He has written an incredible amount of Writings. If you put His Writings, the actual Writings that
exist, that we have, together, it would be about 100 books, books which would be about 200-300
pages. And this was only 6 years. His Mission was very brief. He was a very young man. At this time
of the Declaration, He was 24 or 25 years old depending on how you look at the calendar. And six
years after that He was killed by the order of the clerics and state. So, He was incredibly young. His
Ministry was very short. And despite that, the amount of Revelation that He has is just incredible.
And most of His Writings are not published in original as well. In terms of English, less than 1% of His
Writings are translated, so…

R: Less than 1%?

N: Less than 1%, yes. And this 1% that we have also, is not really very representative of the Writings
of the Bab. And I’m sure that in a few years we will have much more representative works of the Bab
translated in English and then we would have a very different understanding of the Bab, complexity
of the Bab and the sophisticated nature of His Writings at that time. But I wanted to come back to
the discussions that we had, and the question was: when Mullá Husayn was convinced and he
became a devoted follower of the Bab.

So the account that is given in The Dawn-Breakers about this happens to be the most accurate one. I
say that because it is according to what the Bab Himself has said. The Bab frequently mentions, both
with regard to Mulla Husayn, and also He mentions the same thing about the second believer, Mulla
Aliy-i-Bastami. He said that these people were so pure-hearted that the moment that they heard
Divine verses, the moment they heard Divine verses, they were absolutely confirmed and recognized
His station. And this means that this revelation of this particular work - the commentary on the Surih
of Joseph - that became the occasion for the certitude of Mulla Husayn. That hearing the revelation
of these Divine verses, and the power and the poetic beauty, mesmerising character of this
commentary on the Surih of Joseph, revealed in the majesty of the Divine verses, immediately
captured him. And so there was no delay of three days, of five days, forty days...all of these are
incorrect. But again, the key was not those discussions before the commentary on the Surih of
Joseph. It was watching and hearing these Words, Words of God, Divine verses...that was crucial.
This particular work of the Bab, the commentary on the Surih of Joseph, is probably after the Persian
Bayan, the most important work of the Bab. Of course, all the works are important in terms of
historical significance and so on - there are differences. I wish I had time to discuss this commentary
on the Surih of Joseph...it’s a story in which Christianity, and Judaism and Islam become united. The
story of Joseph is one of the few things that binds these traditions together. It is present in the
Torah, and is reaffirmed in the Quran, one of the chapters of the Quran is this Surih of Joseph. And
the Bab is now interpreting the Surih of Joseph. But, Surih of Joseph, of course as being part of the
Quran, is in the form of Divine verses. But the interpretation of that is also made in the Divine
verses. Namely God is revealing through Quran the story of Joseph, and now God through Divine
verses (the Words of God), God is interpreting His own Words. And what we see is this incredible
mystical consciousness that is present here. Namely, it becomes the absolute realm of unity, when
there is no otherness, when there is no differentiation, the utter pure revelation of God. And the
whole discussion of the commentary on the Surih of Joseph is affirmation of this fact that the
ultimate truth of our reality, the ultimate truth of all religions, the ultimate truth of all Prophets of
God is Divine and the same. This is the utter pure revelation of God, which is the absolute realm of
unity and He wants to create a culture that people of different faiths, traditions, people of different
ethnic groups, of different national groups and so on...they won’t look at what divides them, what
separates them, but they should look at their own truth, the truth of their own religion, the truth of
themselves and that truth, the ultimate truth of everything, and everyone, and all religions and all
Prophets, is this utter pure revelation of God. Which is the realm of absolute unity, when there is no
differentiation, when there is no conflict, when there is no plurality. And so for that He wanted to
create a new concept of identity, definition of life and so on. If you look at the story of Joseph, the
way the Bab discusses that. For instance, the Bab, on the very first page, calls Himself “zekr”. “Zekr”
means remembrance. “Zekr” of God, means remembrance of God, which is the title of the Bab. But
why is He calling Himself “Zekr”, this “remembrance”? Because the Surih of Joseph, in the Quran,
the Surih of Joseph is defined as the “Zekr” of God, as remembrance of God. If you read the story of
Joseph, this work of the Bab is interpreting that. It gives the story of Joseph, after the story is
finished, the Quran says that story, namely the story we have discussed, is nothing but the “zekr” of
God, the remembrance of God for the whole world. And therefore, the Bab choosing to call Himself
the “zekr”, remembrance, means that He is saying that He is the Surih of Joseph. He is the word of
God which takes place in the form of the Quran. Previously it came as the Quran. Like the truth of
Jesus was the Word, the Word which was God, the Word which was with God, the Quran becomes
the Word of God, the Surih of Joseph becomes the Word of God, and it is “zekr”, remembrance.
Also, “zekr” means utterance. “Zekr” means both remembrance and word. But we translate it as
remembrance normally, but the word “zekr” means both word/utterance, and remembrance. So the
Bab is defining Himself as the Quran. He’s “zekr”, therefore He’s the Surih of Joseph. So, He’s
interpreting the Surih of Joseph, He’s interpreting Himself. The One who is interpreting is the same
as the text which is being interpreted and it is the same as the meaning of this text. Because Joseph,
in the commentary that the Bab makes, becomes a symbol of Divine beauty, and becomes a symbol
of the truth of all reality, of all Prophets of God. So this Joseph appears first in the interpretation of
the Bab, first as of course Joseph, and then in the age of Islam the same Joseph becomes Imam
Husayn, and then according to the Bab, the truth of this Joseph, which is the truth of this Imam
Husayn, could not realise itself explicitly in the age of Islam because people were not ready.
Therefore, this Joseph, this Imam, is hidden in the well, from the world, because His truth could not
be understood. And He remains in the well…

R: Hidden in the well, paralleling Joseph hiding in the well…

N: Exactly, I mean that also has another...And then the next stage is that this Joseph is taken by the
caravan from the well and is taken to Egypt. Now in Bab’s commentary, this Egypt becomes the city
of Shiraz. And therefore, now that same Joseph, which once was Joseph, then it becomes the truth
of Islam in the form of Imam Husayn, now appears as the Bab. The Bab is Joseph, the Bab is Husayn,
the Bab is the truth of all of this. And, He’s going to appear later on as another Husayn, which is the
name of Baha'u'llah. And so the whole point is absolute unity. The texts, the Author of the texts, the
interpreter of the texts, the meaning and interpretation of the texts, they all become one and the
same. And I don’t have time to discuss this mystical point a little bit more but it is absolutely
amazing. I mean in addition to different statements He makes about the interpretation of the story
of Joseph, it is the logic of this interpretation and it is absolute logic of mystical unity. And that was
the point of the Bab. And this moment of Declaration, is really declaring to the whole world that the
truth of everything is God. That everything is spiritual. That everything is beautiful. And the time has
come for humanity to become conscious of its truth, of its spiritual reality, and not to debase itself as
just a selfish accident in material nature.

R: Wow, so maybe next year we’ll have another one of these conversations around the Declaration
of the Bab, or maybe we’ll have it during the Martyrdom of the Bab conversation, where we can
hear a little bit more about the Surih of Joseph. It sounds like you’ve got a lot more to share there.
But to wrap this conversation up, and I wish we could go on for another hour, but we’re already
straining the ears of the podcast listeners at this point, and maybe we can get to it at a future point.
Why should we care? In 2020, currently we’re in a pandemic, quarantine. This conversation
happened in 1844. It's a conversation with an intellectual, religious scholar. The head of the Shaykhi
movement at the time. And this merchant in Shiraz. You’ve talked about some of the implications of
this conversation. The fact that God is everywhere, we’re all spiritual, mankind has been redefined
from a material being to a spiritual one, nature has been redefined as God inherent, therefore
spiritual and divine and holy in its own way. Many other facets, reverberations, ramifications, to this
conversation. But why do we care now, in the modern world, that this conversation happened?
What are its implications for today?

N: I’ll say something very briefly in general, and something more specifically relating to the pandemic
situation that we have. The world in which we believe is really now a schizophrenic world. I mean,
the highest culture, the highest philosophical, the most progressive ideas that we have represent a
schizophrenic consciousness. And the reason is that...you know we went beyond the pre-modern
world. Pre-modern world was a world in which all forms of prejudice, oppression, inequality were
legitimized as “natural”. So women had to be suppressed because their body was “inferior”, various
groups and colours of skin had to be enslaved and oppressed because of particular “biological
deficiency”, and some people had to become tyrants over all humanity because they were born of
particular “sacred blood”. In any case, this was the way that we thought before in the forms of
prejudices that justified forms of oppression and inequality. But then in the modern world, after the
philosophy of enlightenment, we rejected God and we placed in the place of God, reason. And the
idea was that we can create a new world, a modern world of justice, of equality, of democracy, in
which morality would be dominant and regulate life but on the basis of reason. So revelation, God,
religion are all banished. And the idea is that from reason we can deduce everything that we need.
That is an exciting time, you know, an 18th century philosophy view for instance, says democracy
and some varieties and forms of freedom from the concept of reason. And then we came to - and as
I mentioned at the beginning of this discussion that 1844 was a strange time….Feuerbach, Marx,
Nietzsche and so on, which becomes the culmination of the rejection of God in a sense. But then we
come to the 20th century, and now the 21st century. We are now in a post-modern world. What are
the characteristics of the postmodern world? In the post-modern world we rejected reason. And we
came up with this idea that because there is no God, therefore there is no truth and there is no
value. There is no universal value and there is no universal morality. And so the identity of humans in
the post-modern world is reduced to their social group, to their biology, what is your ethnicity, what
is gender, what is your language, what is your national group...this becomes the “identity” of the
people. The more intellectual you are, the more you think in those ways. You reduce the identity of
the people to these categories. And because there is no universal value and there is no universal
truth, and reason is completely banished and bankrupt in the postmodern world. Therefore, the only
basis of truth and value becomes your own culture, your own tradition. And so we went to this
cultural relativism...that’s why we cannot now, in this postmodern world, criticize other cultures.
You cannot criticize patriarchy in, for instance, Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. You cannot do that
because that means you are affirming a universal value system. And therefore, because of the
rejection of this concept of truth, or value as a universal fashion, the only criteria of truth and value
becomes our traditional culture. And so we are reduced to our traditions and in a sense the pre-
modern world view that justified everything in terms of status quo, of traditions and culture, in a
sense it has re-emerged. But at the same time that we think outside our culture, our group, there is
no basis of morality or truth….at the same time, we are believing in some universal values. We are all
anti-racist. We are all anti-colonialism. We are all anti-destruction of the environment and so on. We
are all against the debasement of human beings and alike. But at the same time, we as postmodern
people, we think that there is no universal value. 

And this is why I said there is a schizophrenic consciousness. Because we rejected God and spiritual
values, at first we thought we have reason and we can deduce all values from that. But without God,
without this spiritual definition of reality, this reason becomes something arbitrary. Ultimately, it
becomes a strategy of self-interest and maximisation of self-interest. And therefore, there is really
no binding basis for values and ideas. People can have different ideas, so “racism” is one culture, and
“anti-racism” is another culture. Both [views think they] are equally correct. But at the same time,
we of course reject racism. Because we are postmodern but we really are not postmodern. We are
also modern. We have these beliefs and some fundamental values. The Declaration of the Bab, the
emergence of the Baha’i Faith, is really the resolution of this impasse that humanity has and the
hypocrisy of humanity at this time. Namely for the Bab, for Baha’u’llah, all reality are reflections of
God. And for that reason, all are beautiful and sacred, all are endowed with rights. This means not
returning to fanaticism, traditionalist religions, or accepting slavery, religious intolerance, bigotry,
violence and so on. On the contrary, the idea is that now all beings are reflections of the Divine, and
therefore all beings should be treated as sacred and equal. But at the same time, this creates an
objective basis for loving humanity and for trying to be helpful in our relation to humanity, in terms
of its truth which is our relation to God. Such a spiritual consciousness can bring a true modernity. 
But it is a modernity which is not confined to a particular nation, or a particular race or gender or
language and so on. It’s a modernity which affirms the unity of the entire human race. And the new
definition of human being becomes one who dedicates himself or herself to the service of the entire
human race. And honour is reinterpreted in this new spiritual definition of reality. Honour is defined
in the universality of your love. When you love everything and everyone. Not just loving your own
self, your own family, your own city, your own country, but you love the entire human race. And
even the willingness to sacrifice yourself for the entire human race. It is the opposite of honour as it
was defined in the past. Honour in the past is when you go and kill the other country, plunder the
other country, because you love your own country. You are willing to sacrifice yourself, to be killed
in war for the sake of your society. But loving society is at the same time killing and exploiting and
colonising other parts of the world? So the Message of the Bab, which is then taken into a higher
form of development in the Revelation of Baha’u’llah, is bringing a new culture which makes it
possible that we will have principles of human rights, of democracy, equal rights and so on. But at
the same time, not as arbitrary lies or choices that are equal to other choices and so on…

And in terms of the present situation that we find ourselves in, I think a spiritual consciousness can
also help us. We went from a time of having this total arrogance that we had, that we were masters
of nature, extremely selfish...we have come to this stage of despair and hopelessness and fear. A lot
of people are just paralysed by this fear, that we are going to die. And the idea is that this virus is
going to kill half of humanity, or themselves and so on. So we have gone from this sense of
haughtiness and arrogance to this exact opposite. Both of them are rejections of a spiritual
consciousness. When you have spiritual consciousness, when God is present within you and you’re
aware of the presence of God, that you are not alone. At the same time you are not arrogant,
because it’s the presence of God and you are always conscious of your servitude, of your lowliness.
But at the same time, the presence of God is with you. And the fact that you’re the image of God,
you’re reflections of Divine attributes...it means hope, means empowerment and the like. So the
way that we have to deal with this situation that we have...also when you have spiritual
consciousness, it becomes consultation. Consultation and extending this process of consultation in
order to see what we should do. The world is realizing in once sense that it is one because this virus
has no border. And so this consciousness of unity has been created to some extent. But at the same
time our response to this has become so politicized.  And in different places, including the United
States, the whole question has become another excuse in order to demonise the other party. And to
exclude others from decision making. And turn that into another way of separating each other, and
making each other alienated from each other. The opposite of this is the logic imperative of
consultation. Which requires universal loving, which requires humility...and therefore extend and
incorporate the circle of consultation in order to figure out what is the best way of moving forward.
That requires a loving orientation to all humanity, not a loving orientation only to your own party,
whether it is democratic or conservative or other parties. And the fact that in the name of
democracy, we constantly demonize each other, we constantly try to suppress the other, is another
expression of the law of struggle for existence. So a beautiful idea like democracy, it's a spiritual
idea, it’s the affirmation of the equality of all human beings...it becomes tainted with this logic of the
old order. The emergence of a new order, a spiritual order which is based upon unity and nobility of
all human beings, requires that we talk to each other, that we communicate with each other, that
we love each other and we make our minds after discussions. Rather than we make our minds in
imitation of what the party would say, and then the only purpose of discussion is to humiliate others
and prove that they are wrong and stupid. So consultation. We need to replace democracies as they
exist with consultation and consultative logic. And that requires a spiritual orientation. And so for
me, this Declaration of the Bab, as I mentioned it's the Day of Resurrection. The Day of God has
happened. And the Day of God means absolute reunion and rejoice. Because God has come to us
and we have come to God and therefore we have come to our own truth. So it’s a time of happiness
and joy, rather than total despair and hopelessness.

R: Wow, that is incredibly profound and inspiring. And I loved what you said at the very end. It really
illuminates for me this idea of the Day of Resurrection. We think of Day of Resurrection and Day of
Judgement...we think “resurrecting” also means something that was dead being brought to life...and
that’s what the Declaration of the Bab really was - the bringing to life of humanity.

N: True. In front of God. It is for me always incredible that people talk of the Day of Resurrection, but
it’s only the day of fear...that you may be sent to Hell. But the way the Bab has understood the Day
of Resurrection, the Day of Resurrection is the day you come face-to-face with God, attain the
presence of God. And from the point of view of the Bab, if you attain the presence of God, what else
do you want? If you’re condemned to Hell for eternity, it’s nothing! Because the ultimate paradise,
ultimate fulfilment, is attaining the presence of God. And that is why this Day of Resurrection
becomes a day of joy and rejoice and energy and happiness, rather than fear and trembling. And so
we have to remember even in our literal understanding of the Day of Resurrection, that we’ve come
in the presence of God. The truth and real meaning of the whole of existence, and therefore this
concept has to become a mystical concept of transformation, rather than another concept of fear of
fire and the love of some material pleasures in heaven. It becomes transformed into reunion with
the Beloved.

R: Thank you so much for your time and giving us your wisdom. What an incredible conversation and
I just cannot thank you enough. I hope you’ll come back on the Baha’i Blogcast and we can talk
about the other aspects of the Bab, the Surih of Joseph, maybe we do one on the Martyrdom of the
Bab...there’s many opportunities for us to continue this conversation.

N: Thank you very much.