Transcript

Wesley Pepper: [00:00:00] Hey, good afternoon world, uh, this is Wesley Pepper. And this is
my podcast. Wesley Peppers Art Lexia. Yeah, man. Sure. 17 episodes into it, man, and keep
going strong man. So, you know, thanks to all my listeners, you know, um, the spot cost
keeps going. This is really, really exciting. So thanks a lot to all my, both my listeners.

[00:00:31] I hope you guys enjoyed last week's episode, men with food, not bombs with Lara
Redd from food, not bombs. I think it was absolutely fantastic. Uh, Big Up, Lara, man. I think
you are doing amazing, amazing, amazing work. Okay. And we'll definitely do a follow up I'm
on that in the next coming months. Um, and maybe Oscar to, um, have more guests and
yeah, we'll, um, We will.

[00:00:54] We'll definitely because I just feel that it was such a, such an important, uh, uh,
organization that she is running. So, yeah, man. Um, remember, um, don't forget to check us
out on, um, all the podcasts platforms, you know, there's, there's a whole host of them
Spudcaster, the, um, iTunes, Spotify. I see my Spotify, um, uh, um, I'm getting more and
more likes there and people and people are tuning in. You know, it's, it's, it's great.

[00:01:24] I actually feel so excited about that. Um, so thanks to my listeners. um, yeah,
man, and thanks for engaging with me on social media, around the podcast too, you know?
Um, so keep those comments coming in, man. And I'm let me know what you guys think.

[00:01:39] So, um, let's let me get straight into it, man. So, um, Aleta you from, uh, your
gallery is called Yebo gallery, uh, based in Swaziland? Eswatini, yes yes

[00:01:51] Aleta Armstrong: [00:01:51] I know we all still getting used to it,

[00:01:54] Wesley Pepper: [00:01:54] So I know that, um, I know that people get into, or
other people start, um, or rather open galleries, uh, because they have a passion for art.
Usually they are either patrons of the art or the artists themselves, um, you know, or they,
or they just. Activist. So, you know, just give us like a, like a brief on how you came about to
the setting up the space. Um, and how long has it been existing and so forth?

[00:02:19] Aleta Armstrong: [00:02:19] Um, well, actually November, it's gonna be 10 years.
We were going to have some kind of party. I'm not sure what is happening now. Um, but
yeah, it's 10 years ago and it was, um, Pete, my husband and me and Dane, our son.

[00:02:36] Um, and I think we were in between, um, we'd sold a business where we were
doing screen printing and design work, and then we'd been teaching art and we were sort
of, kind of at an, in between. Okay, what should we do? No. I mean, Pete and I have been
sort of creative entrepreneurs for a long time. Um, and then we're artists.

[00:02:54] I mean, I paint and I draw. pete's a sculpture and print. Dane does also a lot of
creative work. And I think we were basically sort of bitching about there's no gallery, there's
no space to go to if we want to have an exhibition. And then knowing other artists, there
were sort of little. Cheese and wine little elite events happening now and again, but which I
didn't think was making things accessible, you know?
[00:03:17] And so I think that's where it kind of started by complaining. And then we realized
that while complaining wasn't going to get us anywhere. And then we thought, why the hell
not open our own gallery? We had, um, we had a little bit of money and then we thought,
well, the worst thing is that we'll lose all our money.

[00:03:38] So let's try it for a while and kind of see how it goes. So it was very much, I think,
as artists, you know, thinking of, so I think the gallery was set up the way we as artists would
like to be treated by a gallery. So we kind of wear both hats. Um, and then I think. Talking to
other artists, people we knew already who were, and as we were meeting more artists,
because once you start a gallery, then you know, kind of word gets out.

[00:04:09] Um, so it's always been about the artists. It's a gallery. Yes. But you know, without
artists, well, it wouldn't kind of exist. So I think that was the beginning part. I mean, I meet a
lot of people go, Oh, it must be lovely to have an art gallery. You know, I want to set one up.
So I kind of would say to P. Yeah.

[00:04:30] If you want to sync all your life savings and every spare bit of cash you got, um,
off you go, you know, because you've got to then love it. It just has, it just has a meaning.
And you're sort of trying to try and keep it going through good times, bad times, you know, it
just becomes, so I think that's kind of how, um, Yebo started.

[00:04:53] The intention also was that. As artists, and as someone who loves to visit art
galleries and museums, you know, um, was we knew kind of what we didn't want. We didn't
want a fancy gallery where there's no prices you're made to feel intimidated if you walk in.
Um, and I felt that, you know, I mean, I like art and I'm comfortable with it.

[00:05:19] but there were a lot of galleries that I would visit, especially overseas. I don't
know if I dare walk in there, you know, it's kind of scary. Um, so I think we didn't, we just
didn't want that. We wanted it very grassroots. Everyone would just walk in off the street. If
you were an artist, someone would talk to you.

[00:05:36] You wouldn't have to make appointments and be kept waiting. Or if you are not
good enough, I think that's. That's been the whole thing for 10 years. It's like, everyone's
welcome to walk through the door. You know, one of us is always there. We talk, we look at
people's work. Um, we help. Um, so it's been a, yeah, been a fun. Exciting ten years.

[00:06:01] Wesley Pepper: [00:06:01] Yeah. Uh, I made, I, I, I picked up two points that you,
that you raised, which I find really, really interesting. Um, and the one kind of leads to the
other is that, um, you'd want to make art accessible and the whole thing of an art gallery not
being intimidating, because that is for sure, for sure. I mean, I, I, I definitely believe that.

[00:06:21] Um, um, if I, um, just for my listeners, Mmm. Mmm, Mmm. Mmm. One thing, one
thing I, um, I like completely agree is that, is that most, especially the more than mainstream
galleries actually quite, quite intimidating and like regular working class people. Um,
sometimes even, even just glancing over to your left or your right to look at the gallery, it
feels intimidating because you just see art that you don't understand.
[00:06:45] Mmm. Mmm, Mmm. Complex art. And I think that actually isolates, um, um, um,
a lot of, um, a lot of people. And, um, so that does also, so, so, so the making of, of, of, of
making art, um, Accessible. In other words, allowing people to, um, to come into the gallery,
is there, I don't know if you used to have a, a certain style, a certain methodology of some
sort that, um, that's so for like, like anybody can get, is it like anybody can just walk in like,
say somebody is dropping a parcel at the shop or something you say, Oh, okay. This is
interesting. Um, Do you's like like encourage that type of atmosphere. Um, um, yeah.

[00:07:24] Aleta Armstrong: [00:07:24] Yeah, well, our gallery is kind of in a residential area,
in Ezilwini, which is, you know, it's got shopping centers, hotels, and then houses. So when
we, um, we moved, Yebo has kind of changed. I think it's moved three times the gallery.

[00:07:40] And then previously we were renting spaces for the last four years. Um, we found
a place and then we like live next door. And then, then, um, we kind of fixed up a trailer.-
sort-of park home and sort of ripped it apart and thought, okay, let's make a gallery here.
Um, so I think we see people, people will pop in cause the Gates are open, you know?

[00:08:04] So it's like you could drop your drive in, you walk in. I mean, it's accessible if
people are using public transport, it's not far away. Um, and there's quite a lot of traffic on
our road. So people, um, Will walk in. We also sell like art materials and we do classes and
we have the space also for artists to use.

[00:08:23] If they're working on any projects, we have a library. Um, so that we had a lot of
art books and then people donated because we also realized a lot of artists needed access to
reference books, which are expensive. So they can just come and borrow books or walk in
and show their work. Um, yeah.

[00:08:41] I think in that way it's like, you know, just. Just walk in. And then I think it's also
through social media, posting people writing saying, uh, where are you? Are you open? Can I
come? And you're like, yeah. And then when we have exhibitions, I think the important thing
is that entry is always free. And so. Hello?

[00:09:02] Hi, something went?

[00:09:07] Wesley Pepper: [00:09:07] it happens. It happens. But anyway, man, I'm I'm
actually, so, um, just as you were closing in the, I was going to come in there, so in other
words you say, you said, in other words, you're saying that you guys were very strategic. In
other words, where you, um, where you, where you placed your, your gallery. So, um, You
have access to, to all, to, uh, to all of these, uh, different, uh, different types of traffic. Am I
correct? If I say that?

[00:09:31] Aleta Armstrong: [00:09:31] Yeah. I mean, the problem still is if you want people,
everybody to have access to it, if people are kind of broke and go to pay bus fare and come
into town, you know, you're not going to get, um, you know, gonna make art accessible to
everybody. Yeah. So that's still a problem. I think you can, through social media.

[00:09:52] I think everybody now is kind of, you know, on Instagram, Facebook. So you can
kind of at least that way connect, but I know for a lot of artists or someone who's kind of out
in the rural area, we'll send a message, but it's quite a mission to, to then come. You know?
So I think if you're, if you're low income, um, You know, there aren't art galleries in all the
rural areas.

[00:10:15] I mean, there should be, but then I know it would be a problem. Yeah. So ideally,
if there was more money, I think it would be fantastic.

[00:10:25] Wesley Pepper: [00:10:25] But, um, I want, I want to move on when I, I want to
ask you guys. Um, so, so, so I understand like how you guys came to being like, um, sort of
where you're physically existed, sort of the methodology behind that. Question is I want
understand your processes.

[00:10:40] That's the whole idea behind the podcast is understand the processes of the
creative industry. So I was kind of sketching. Um, uh, I was trying to sketch this idea of like,
um, um, how does your gallery, select its artists once they've selected? Um, um, um, why
does the processes do you, do, do you, do, do you do grow with them? Do you do, I mean, is
it just like you do one show so forth or how does, how does that processes with Yebo gallery
work?

[00:11:08] Aleta Armstrong: [00:11:08] okay. I think it's quite organic. It's evolved over the
years. Um, so I think when we opened and we'd have a call and artists would arrive, you
know, so I think first few exhibitions was just like, we're going to put an exhibition up, who's
got work, you know, bring, and you kind of start with, with that.

[00:11:29] Um, there are artists that we've been working with over 10 years. So from when
we started, who are still exhibiting with us, and then there's artists who have come and
gone. Cause some people are not full time, you know, there'll be a show and someone does
something amazing, but then they go and get a job or they study or whatever.

[00:11:46] So there, and because we're open to all kinds of artists, but not saying, Oh, you
must be super professional and have gone to art college. You know, I think the process that
we have, we used to, we had a meeting I remember with VENSA. They came over. So we did
do some workshops with artists about. How to work professionally.

[00:12:06] Um, because what I found with some artists was it, Oh, you know, they'd bring in
some work. And then I would say, um, where have you exhibited? Oh, I took some stuff over
there. It's hanging up there. You know, I said, what are they? What's the price? Oh, I don't
know. I said, what are they selling it? I don't know.

[00:12:23] Did you have a receipt? No, I don't. And I said, you can't kind of operate like that.
You know, you go to a galleries, go to sign in the work, you've got to understand your
pricing. You've got to understand the galleries commission, you know, and just, and look
after your work, you know, because if you don't know and you don't have receipts, someone
could sell your work for five grand and then only give you 50 bucks because there's nothing
in writing.

[00:12:48] Um, so we did some workshops on those. Sort of issues with artists that kind of
understand. And I think to assist them, you know, of how to kind of work. And then I think
it's just evolved over the years of, um, I think as a gallery, when people walk in, if someone's
new and they kind of either they'll, WhatsApp me, some pictures, I get a lot of people
WhatsApping me.

[00:13:10] Hi, have a look. This is what I do. Um, or they send stuff through social media or
they'll come by with a portfolio. And always ready to look. Um, and if something, it comes
across as, Oh, that's interesting. You know, so sometimes we'll just say, let's share it on
social media. Let's see what kind of response or, you know, join an exhibition.

[00:13:33] So sometimes we have open calls with it's like anyone can apply. So obviously we
do select a bit because some people, you know, we will say this is wonderful, but you can
kind of. You have to give them some advice and say, look, keep drawing. Or keep painting.
It's great. You know, you're going in the right direction. Um, I would say probably in Eswatini
we've got sort of hundreds of people doing portraits. That's a very big thing here is, I don't
know if it, if it is in South Africa?

[00:14:02] Wesley Pepper: [00:14:02] it's actually a, not to, not to break your word, but like
the. The, the, the thing about portraits, um, that's I would call it almost a genre on its own
way where artists only solely do that. And I've noticed over the last, however years that
celebrity portraits in particular.

[00:14:20] Aleta Armstrong: [00:14:20] Yeah.

[00:14:22] Wesley Pepper: [00:14:22] So, so, so look here man, as an artist myself, like I kind
of get it yo, because, you know, because you feel like if you can draw the celebrity, you
know, that photo realist kind of kind of effect. You know that it might boot sales, but, you
know, and, and, um, now because of COVID-19 get celebrities with masks. laughs

[00:14:41] Aleta Armstrong: [00:14:41] laughs

[00:14:42] Wesley Pepper: [00:14:42] so I, uh, yeah, man, that's a, that's a, I think it's a
Southern African thing because I know a lot of cats in Zim, in Bots and Mozambique are
doing the same thing in Swaziland and of course here. Um, so yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a
real thing. Yeah. So, okay. I understand that process, right. So, um, one thing, another point I
picked up is that, as you said, you guys don't really focus on a specific specifics.

[00:15:06] You're not like, uh, you know, just do printmaking or, or sculpture and then so on.
So this is also the, the part as a, as a, as a creative, as an artist myself, that I don't
understand how galleries do this. So, um, how do you select a work? And say, okay. Yeah,
this will sell. Or, or, or, or, or rather, let me take a step back.

[00:15:26] Is that, is that part of the curating process? When you, when you look at the
works, okay. The work is beautiful. The technique, the subject matter is amazing, but will it
sell? Is that the, how big is that part of the whole curating processes of your curating
processes?

[00:15:43] Aleta Armstrong: [00:15:43] not always. I don't think, I think so much about
selling, you know, I think if I wanted to. If we'd wanted Yebo Gallery to kind of do loads of
sales, then we would have, I've had lots of portraits and gold frames and lots of sunsets and
impala bouncing, you know, whatever. So I think we wanted to break with that tradition of
sort of. Commercial. So I think it was, I mean, you'd obviously see you get amateur artists
who come in and then the work isn't quite up to scratch for a gallery.

[00:16:15] So I'll encourage them to keep drawing, you know, and I think that's great, but
just something it's always difficult to explain you just kind of know when you see something
you think, wow, that's original, that's different. And we've had some artists who I can see
that, how they've evolved over the years.

[00:16:32] You know, when they've walked in. If we look, if I look back to their early work,
you could see the potential. It might've not been the greatest and probably some very well
established gallery would have not taken it. So I think we've always made an effort to
include all kinds of work into shows as well, just to give.

[00:16:53] Encouragement and say, Hey, let's see how that goes. And we've also had
exhibitions on sometimes on certain themes. It might've been on women's rights. It might've
been employment change where the work necessarily, it might not be at all commercial, but
it is really important that an artist makes it and it's seen.

[00:17:13] Yeah. So, so yeah, I don't think I've really. Thought always about, will that sell?
That's not really been on top of the criteria. It's been about selecting something different
finding someone's. I think talking to artists, and saying your voice is speaking. You know, you
just know it when you see that someone's being really. Yeah. So I think that's, that's, that's
what I select.

[00:17:37] Wesley Pepper: [00:17:37] It's actually pretty cool. That's actually pretty cool
because, um, I don't know many, uh, curators are actually, uh, operates in a similar vein
because I know that, um, at the end of the day, capitalism wins at the end of the day. It has
the final say, um, which actually bring me nicely to the sort of my next point.

[00:17:53] Then I want to give you a bit of a background of myself. So, um, my
understanding of. Of the creative of, of, of, of, of, of, of the artists is, um, um, um, that the
artist does not make, it's not his/hers responsibility just to make pretty things that
somebody hangs up on a wall. I think, I think the creative processes can be branched out and
you can do so many things.

[00:18:15] Um, um, um, and I like to use my art to my creativity as an actual tool, you know,
Fela used to say music is a weapon. So sort of, so sort of coming from that sort of, um, uh,
um, ideology. So, um, when you say that, um, um, when you say that you're, um, cause you
made a point of like, when you, when you see that as said that some art is relevant for like
the now.

[00:18:38] You know, um, like we've been just as many crazy times. I mean, since March,
2020, the whole world has flipped change. So, um, in your opinion, as a curator, as a gallery
owner, what type of art do you think is relevant? Um, in 2020,
[00:18:55] Aleta Armstrong: [00:18:55] God knows. I really I'm really str.. No, no, but I think,
you know, like you say since March, you're just like, what. And I think to go back, I mean, to
answer this question, but to go back, were you saying about commercial or whatever it is?
That I think I didn't want it. Like, it would depend if I had to pay all my bills, depending how
many paintings you sell as a gallery, then you might be pushing for that. So we also created
our own range of products, and then we had a shop at it, like a tourist place, and that was
kind of the bread and butter we'd put paintings there too.

[00:19:29] It was a kind of creative design shop, but that kind of paid the bills and covered
costs of, you know, all the things to promote artists because they didn't, they don't have to
pay. For any of it. So if I put them on Artsy, if they're on social media, shipping, their work,
handling, all that we would cover those costs sometimes, you know, you would just, just
making ends meet on that art site.

[00:19:51] But because it was just important that things were being done. Professionally and
people could express themselves. So that kind of paid the bills. So when March happened
and boom, our shop closed, you know, and we all kind of sat back and income dropped
immediately. So that kind of was like, okay, what are we, what do we do now?

[00:20:14] You know, how do we, um, Continue. So I think there's been a kind of lull. We had
existing work. We did put a show online, you know, which we, which we did that when, um,
When things started. Cause no one could obviously bring the work in, but they could, you
know, send the images through which I think you were part of.

[00:20:36] Wesley Pepper: [00:20:36] Yes. Um,

[00:20:38] Aleta Armstrong: [00:20:38] so we did that and then I just continued. I mean, we
went into lockdown and I went to the gallery every day. Cause I just thought I've got to keep
the routine go even though I'm not seeing anyone. So I would say thank heavens for social
media. I know people bitch a lot about social media and it has, it has the sites that don't
work.

[00:20:57] But I think for the pandemic, it was brilliant because we could still be talking to
everybody, you know, we could still be like, hi, and everybody started looking at things. So
we noticed that, um, art sales were continuing, you know, so we were getting requests from
someone in New York or someone in Berlin going, hi, I looked at this painting and can you
ship.

[00:21:18] DHL was still operating. Okay. Things took longer, you know, so things sort of
were, um, we're continuing, obviously artists just kind of, you didn't see them. I think artists
have had a hard time because income has just dropped for everybody. So people were just
like, I don't have bus fare or I don't have this.

[00:21:40] I don't have that. So that has been a really big issue for them. Creative sector
here. And, um, I can see in the news in South Africa too. Um, of just, how do I live? You
know, so we would get calls from people going, hi, you know, can you lend me 200 bucks? I
haven't eaten for a few days. So I think, yeah, survival became the issue first, rather than
hey, what art exhibition are we going to put on?
[00:22:04] What, you know, what should we be doing? So I think there's been a few months
of people just trying to. Survive and kind of juggle the bills and how can you do things? I was
lucky enough to get some commissioned work where I had to kind of do illustrations for
world health and red cross and stuff.

[00:22:24] Okay, great. That'll pay the bills. We can keep the gallery open, you know, and
keep and keep doing things. No, I think is the time that as things are starting to open up, you
know, artists are starting to merge with sort of saying hi, and I think. Is. So I think we're still
in that period where I know talking to artists, cause then we would chat a lot, you know, just
on the phone and kind of, Hey, what are you doing. Is I think everyone has gone into their
own little world and some have been creating and making things some have not.

[00:22:57] Um, there's going to be like almost picking up the pieces. I think we're going to be
rebuilding something. New, but I don't know. I don't know what it is yet. So I think we're still
in that period of you still want to be creative, you know, so, but a lot of people I spoke to
said they couldn't be for a while.

[00:23:19] You know, there was high anxiety, a lot of people. Um, and so people were react
in, in, in different ways, um, do that even amongst the artists. So I think we're still in a
process of all. Talking to each other and seeing, okay, how can we manage? There's a few
artists who, who have been creating work, saying I'd like to do a solo.

[00:23:42] So I'm busy at the moment. Just. Planning up until sort of January for a couple of
exhibitions, do maybe a little mini, um, opening and you know, only a few people at a time
can come in kind of thing. Yeah. Um, and then put it online, but I also want to have it
physically. She opens the people can come and see.

[00:24:00] So I'll be then seeing what, what have, um, what have artists, um, been creating?
Um, and then we've got a couple of, um, Projects, um, you know, that we've put out that
we'd like to do bigger ones that need funding. So we're waiting to hear, um, about those.
Um, but I think talking to everyone, everyone has handled this kind of traumatic experience
in very many different ways.

[00:24:32] And I think we're gonna see in the coming months. Um, I think when I start seeing
what artists are doing, I think then it's going to become evident of how this has affected. And
I think it's going to be constantly changing. What should we be? Um, what should we be
doing and what should we focus on? I think one thing that's come up just for me personally,
and for Pete at the gallery is.

[00:25:00] You know, you talked about commercialism and big money and all that. And I
think seeing now how hard people are struggling and we've been kind of involved with the
community as well. There was a sort of solidarity Eswatini group that, um, Dane set up. I
mean, there was, um, crowdfunding going on and we were, so there was a whole team
effort going on.

[00:25:22] Then there's also Khulekani Msweli. Who is a great artist who's down in Vuvulane.
he's got a whole, um, NPO that he runs and with feeding projects. So also a lot of artists got
together to, um, distribute food, seedlings, vegetable gardens. So the, the idea of also
growing our own food, the environment, um, community, you know, that has come up very,
very strongly.

[00:25:49] And I think the idea of which sometimes often happens in the art world. I mean,
I'll meet some artists for like, I want to be an artist. I want to be famous. I want to be rich,
you know, and you're like, okay, great. But you know, not many, not many are going to get
that. And also that's, your goal as an artist..

[00:26:09] I kind of think really? Yeah. I think, I think there's a bit of a problem. So what I am
feeling coming up from us at the moment is kind of the grassroots, the community, the
solidarity, it's not about, um, Big money. I mean, it never was. I mean, we have no money to
go to art fairs or, you know, the sort of jet set lifestyle that's going on in the art world.

[00:26:35] And I've never liked that. I don't think that know good art is because you go to an
art fair and and it costs you know and because its, very, very expensive, then it must be the
best, you know? So I think we're going to get smaller one because we have to, so we have a
budget, you know, which is like, Horrible. So I'm constantly juggling of how are we going to
manage things and all the artists are doing the same, but then it also, then our creativity, we
have to become more creative.

[00:27:05] And then we have to think, how do we join forces? What are the issues? But
every artist will have their own voice what they think is important. So for a curator, an art
gallery, it's not for us to say, we might say these are the issues that are important to us, but
what it is for every other artist, I don't know, you know, it's up to them.

[00:27:22] Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if that makes any sense?

[00:27:26] Wesley Pepper: [00:27:26] That's actually, that's actually pretty cool. Uh, what
you would put what you said, and you actually answered, like I wanted to make a follow up
but you kind of, already answered that already and I'm going to get to that. Um, that's
actually, that's actually pretty cool.

[00:27:38] Um, because my, sort of my followup question after, after this was, um, um, um,
was how is the, in your opinion, how has the pandemic changed the physical art space, but I
kind of like, uh, are you saying, because I've picked it up, um, in my, um, networks to, um,
um, the whole, um, I'm just trying to stand a bit more together and just trying to do things
for themselves a bit more, although like, unfortunately the old flashy lifestyle thing, I mean,
some people won't change, um, out of that then honestly, I don't think art is about that, but
so there's, so there's that section, but, um, like, um, what, I'm, what I'm, what I've noticed,
um, um, is how our behaviors.

[00:28:21] Have been changing now that we are forced to do, um, basically most of our
interacting through a device, you know, the whole virtual space, like all the major, I was part
of book week, uh, two weeks. Well, you know, that's not gone completely virtual there's a
book week in . So I think the Nigerian ones also the first virtual thing, even now, the other
day, they're the Emmy awards in America is also virtual.
[00:28:44] Yeah. So, so this all, um, I know that this virtual space is, is, is, is changing our
behaviors big time. And when it comes down to costs, uh, in your opinion, right. Um, and I
know you probably can't make that call now and I certainly can't. Um, but do you think that
there's, um, That the physical gallery will lose its um, sort of it's Ooomph or it's important.

[00:29:09] Whereas now because you made a point earlier about social media and I totally
agree with you. I also think it has its very, very negative side in terms of fake news, but it
has, I mean, I mean it, it brings us together, you know, and it's very powerful in terms of
that. So, so in some ways you could even argue that it's better than, um, Um, having a
network session where there's a hundred people in a room where you can do it quicker and
more efficiently, online and so forth and so forth.

[00:29:38] So do you think that, uh, the physical gallery, um, the physical space will sort of
lose its. It's important over time. Or do you think will always be that balance? Because
there's also the one, the one side, I know friends of mine that I sold a pieces recently that
the client, when a client viewed it online, they couldn't really get a good understanding.

[00:29:59] they needed to actually see the physical piece before they said yay or nay, you
know? So there's always that element to it as well. So in your opinion, men, how do you,
yeah, where do you think it's going, you know?

[00:30:12] Aleta Armstrong: [00:30:12] I think both, I think maybe galleries that are just
galleries, you know what I mean? Like a big fancy gallery somewhere in the middle of the
city with exorbitant rents, you know? Um, I think those kinds of places can always be a bit
soulless my opinion. Um, Okay. No, I'm not making any friends with big galleries. Okay. Um,
so those might, I think it's still nice to have the physical place. I would hate to have
everything in existing only in, in kind of virtual reality, you know? So it's still having a
building, I think maybe for us, because it's, um, It's kind of, there's a library.

[00:30:53] We have coffee. It's where we work. There's a workshop, you know, there's a
garden and we're planting. Theres trees. So it's a kind of place it's, it's sort of like our
extended home. So I think for people to visit it. So if, um, obviously we get people from
overseas that can only go online and choose some art, and then you just chat, you know,
online and they buy.

[00:31:14] But I think for people who then are, are traveling. Because obviously a lot of our
sales, I mean, very little is, is, is local. I mean, that's a whole other topic of conversation, so
yeah. So it's, it's kind of, so I think this thing of no international visitors, you know, has also
had an impact on everyone's income, but I think having, so we don't have thousands of
people like the shop?

[00:31:38] Yes. That was like the big tourist buses pouring in, you know? Um, and then the
gallery, we kept sort of separate of those people who are very interested. Would drive and,
and find us. And, and I think we always had people kind of surprised because they, I mean,
that was other topic of why we set up the gallery because some tourists would be like, you
know, come to Africa and giraffes and Oh wow.
[00:32:01] You have a, you have contemporary art in Africa? We wouldn't have thought that.
You're like, yes, we do. So it was, um, I think it's kind of. I think people do, it's nice to meet
face to face and actually see the work or meet artists, see where something is happening,
you know, so we, I think we will continue, but I am realizing, I mean, now I'm just also talking
of, because we want to set up a sort of online shop and I'm looking at options of how.

[00:32:34] Do people view.. We have Artsy at the moment so people can see it there, but
we've got other things where people want to buy a tee shirt or they want something. So
we're looking at setting up an online shop, but then, then that comes in issue, which is also a
big issue here in Eswatini. You don't have it there because you can pay with PayPal and
credit card and so forth.

[00:32:55] We can't do that here. There's no PayPal. And we CA and you can't do credit card
payments. So it all has to be on online bank transfer. So if I sell a painting and someone in
New York wants, it they have to physically go to the bank and do a transfer and it just takes
days,

[00:33:13] Wesley Pepper: [00:33:13] that could be a problem, especially now with covid-19.

[00:33:16] yeah.

[00:33:16] Aleta Armstrong: [00:33:16] Oh, okay. So that has been, that has been a big
problem. So we're talking at the moment to someone. I think it's a company based in, um, in
Kenya. Um, and then they, they are sort of financial services and you can have an online
shop and then you have the link, so clients can pay with credit card so that we urgently need
to do.

[00:33:35] So we've got, we've got a, yeah. So we all go to adapt and see what we can, um,
set up. And I think here we're a bit behind times and I think I've been lobbying in terms of.
PayPal and payments. And a lot of people have not quite understood it. And I said, you
know, I think sometimes there's still, there's so many kinds of. Old people in charge of things
who sort of think you must have an office. And some people even mentioned faxes and
you're like, no, we don't need that.

[00:34:09] Wesley Pepper: [00:34:09] A fax machine laughs, no, no. I get you. The old
politics versus new politics old ways versus new ways is, is a big, is a big issue or a big thing
currently. Um, I think across all sectors, to be honest, but I get you. I totally, I totally, I totally
get you. And because social media has also changed the way people, uh, um, um, have
access to art in the past, you know, you'd only go to a gallery and now it's on your device
and you have a device on you all the time.

[00:34:40] So people's interaction. Um, with artists changes and I've also noticed how
people, um, and I'm talking like not, um, um, I would just say just like people interested in
art, how they, how they interact with, um, with, with, with various features. I'm talking
visual art. Yeah. On, on, on people's phones and comments, like shares emojis, and then so
on and so on.
[00:35:02] And, um, um, um, I just honestly, um, what I've been, um, actually they ran an
experiment. Let me tell you this sort of in closing. Um, I'd end this. Well, it was an
experiment. We actually did it. Um, so I also co-run a website called consciousness.co.za and
we've been around for almost 15 years now.

[00:35:20] And, um, in the past, um, I sort of had people buy art, like on lay by, you know,
where you put a deposit down or 300 or, and then over time, you know. but now during
those, um, that. Periodthat they pay i'll sort of like school them in inverted commas. You
know, like, this is what you're doing. They invest, you know, like this, where your money's
going in.

[00:35:41] Yeah. This is what the technique is about. That's what I was saying. Sort of sorta
to make them like an actual, like a, almost like a physical connection. Well, in this case with
myself and it kind of worked, man, um, um, um, it, um, it worked, um, um, it's just at the
time we were doing that, I was, yeah, I also need, um, I don't do very well at multitasking at
all, but, um, you know, like I think that those types of those types of processes.

[00:36:11] Uh, um, um, will be rather successful now. I mean, I'm trying to do that on my
own. Um, but I know that now people's income has taken a bit of a hit, but not that
appreciation for the, for the arts is there, man. And I just think, yeah, the virtual space and
the digital space, um, There's more than just selling a person, an artwork, you know, you can
sell them something, you know, like you're saying, t-shirts like a friend of mine is that, has
donecollaboration with, uh, with a sweater, company thing.

[00:36:39] That was rather interesting. You know, I also printed t-shirts. Um, and we're
actually gonna move forward. We're gonna do it like on print, uh, artworks and put it like on
stickers, you know, and use them on devices like phones laptops and so forth. So, um, you
know, I just, I just think that the virtual space actually opened up the market a bit more and,
um, I don't, you know, I don't like this thing and I don't like to think it's all dead in.

[00:37:01] Um, you know, I don't, I don't think things are also so gloomy and doomy, um, as
the media mainstream media that is. Once as one says to believe. So, so, um, that's my,
that's an opinion on my side, you know? Um, but sort of in closing and, um, so it's a webinar
on the 25th of September, um, this pandemic has been going on for almost 200 days moving
forward to the what is the galleries? Um, Plan for the rest of the year and moving into 2021.
Is there anything we can I look forward to shows projects and et cetera et cetera

[00:37:42] Aleta Armstrong: [00:37:42] yeah. And like I said, a whole lot of things in the air
that I'm waiting for us to, I can't announce this and this, which would have been nice to do
because some of them are some of them I'm just waiting.

[00:37:52] Um, but there's, there's going to be, um, I think it is to follow us on social media
and then, um, it is going to is coming up, um, a couple of solo exhibitions, one with a
photographer Sinenkhosi Msomi. And, um, He won recently a prize. I think there was African
union. There was sort of, he's a photographer, but kind of art photographer.

[00:38:17] So we're just planning the dates. So he's going to be doing a solo show. Thabo
Lukhele also going to be doing a solo show. And then there's two very exciting projects, but
when I've got them confirmed... So we're starting to sort of, so we're starting to sort of book,
I think, starting from sort of beginning November, because that you said.

[00:38:35] This is not going anywhere. So we can't just, we can't kind of go, Oh, we'll wait till
Covid's over. Um, we're doing things safely. So like, you know, it's masks distancing only let a
few people in the gallery. If there comes more people, we stand, we've got a car park. We
can all stand there and have a little party.

[00:38:54] Um, and then, like you say, we do stuff on online. So I think we're going to sort of
be putting forth soon. Our, um, What shows are coming up and what people can see. And I
think to add just a little bit something that I think we missed out on was that not every artist
is so. Like I've noticed here. I don't know.

[00:39:15] Maybe in South Africa it's different, but a lot of artists are not very good at using
social media or they don't have access or they don't have much data. Yeah. So they'll
occasionally just put a picture on Facebook, but you know, it's not enough to kind of sell. So I
think where the role of a gallery comes in, I see it is, I'm a kind of organizer, you know, I
must make sure that we have the Artsy platform.

[00:39:39] The social media is working. Things are being shared. Put shows together. If
someone buys, I have to organize payment systems, which has bloody nightmare coordinate
DHL. I mean, they've been fantastic. We kind of doing all our shipping and things, so it's that
job. It's just so it doesn't cost the artist anything.

[00:39:59] Um, that's what a gallery should do. You're there, if you believe in artists, you're
like let's provide. But a lot of it is just let's provide the service, you know, we've got to do it.
And so I feel kind of, from Yebo's part, if we don't do that, then a lot of the world is not
going to see what amazing artists we have in Eswatini

[00:40:18] And so for those artists who are amazing at creating, but maybe pretty bad at
marketing or coordinating shipping, someone has to kind of do that. But if artists know how
to do that, And then we keep lobbying for things. Then it starts also opening up that other
galleries can open and alternative spaces.

[00:40:36] Cause there needs to be a lot of those. And I do believe we need to all work a lot
more, um, together, you know? Um, and I think I would like to do some more exhibitions
and bring in work from neighboring countries, you know? And so that, that would be cool.
Yeah.

[00:40:56] Wesley Pepper: [00:40:56] Well, that's, that's brilliant. That's pretty interesting,
man. That's, that's, that's really interesting. And I'm kind of what you say. If I must just give
you some insight into like all my other episodes, um, everyone who I've sort of invited on
this platform is actually singing a similar tune, hey um, um, and I think that's definitely, it's
definitely a step in the right direction

[00:41:16] we actually do all need each other. You know, and there's this, there's this digital
platform that, and you are you're right there. Yeah, because we have a similar problem here
in SA. Data is fucking expensive and then your gadget, because, because now if you have a
three or two G gadget, you know, you, you know, it's also limited to certain apps and, and,
and, and so forth and so forth.

[00:41:38] And then, you know, and then people's phones get stolen and laptops and so on.
And so, so yeah, we have a, we have a, we have a similar thing. Yeah. And, um, I've also
picked up that guys, some people, uh, some who market their work online, you know,
doesn't always do it in a. I think, I think there's a, there's a, there's, there's an etiquette
about it.

[00:41:59] And there's a, there's a technique But check here, man. This is this, this has really
been great man talking to you, man. Um, and this is really fantastic so um, so what we'll do is
our episode goes live every Wednesday. So we publish once a week, um, and we are
available on all the platforms all the podcasting platforms, but the majority of our views
come off our websites, um, And, uh, I will be in touch.

[00:42:26] So I think that's pretty much, I think that pretty much covers me, man. Um, so this
was fantastic, man.

[00:42:32] Aleta Armstrong: [00:42:32] Can I add something? Can I add

[00:42:35] Wesley Pepper: [00:42:35] Yes you may, yes yes

[00:42:36] Aleta Armstrong: [00:42:36] so many things pop into my head. One of the things,
cause you were talking about like, what should we, as artists be saying, okay, we've been
bitching about data costs, but that's not the most important thing.

[00:42:50] But if we're talking about the pandemic and where it came, it came from. Yeah.
I'm looking at the research and looking at the climate crisis that we're facing, you know, this
well in a way, this is where it's come from, because I think now with all the scientists and the
research, they're just saying, this is the warning.

[00:43:11] To all of us, you know, Of what we're kind of doing to the planet. So it's a kind of
warning sign of along with the fires and the destruction and whatever else that this, that has
currently hit us. All of us. This is a kind of warning. So some people are like, Oh, when's the
lockdown over. Cause then I want to have a party, you know, as if it's, it's going to be over.

[00:43:32] So we need to heed the warning. And I would really like. Which would be quite
cool. And I put that out. If there's any artists listening or other galleries is addressing the
issue kind of, of the crisis, you know, the planet is kind of burning. And if we don't, if we
don't say something, if we don't do something, if we all go back to whatever it was so great.

[00:43:57] Um, so things everything's got to change. I mean, when I'm talking about. The
climate it's, it's just how our lifestyles have to change. Do we have to have lots of, have to
have lots of money? Do we have to have this? Do we have to travel everywhere? So we have
to all change. It's not that some people must change and others can just keep on doing as, as
it used to be.

[00:44:18] So I think there's a huge change in the air when I talk to people of how they want
to, how they want to live. So maybe we need to use this time. Which I think we have been
on reflecting and maybe us as artists and galleries and whatever should kind of somehow
collaborate on, on something.

[00:44:37] Wesley Pepper: [00:44:37] I agree with you. I agree with you,Jislaaik, you know, I
I'm I'm I'm with you there a hundred percent man. Under the, the, the old thing, like, um,
just to just, just to add on a point about like, we've been talking about, uh, the, the fact that,
you know, we have all these zoom meetings where in the past, you, you, if you have a
meeting at 12, you know, you have to leave your place by 10 because you have to travel.

[00:44:58] So it's cars you know, it's. Burning fuel. It's the time it's the stress stuck in traffic
and all that kak so, so now, you know, we can, can sort of like shift, like that's not important
anymore. So I definitely definitely feel you on that. Mmm Mmm, Mmm, Mmm, Mmm,
Mmm, Mmm, Mmm. On that. And also like, um, our, um, Yeah.

[00:45:16] I mean, I think that artists. Me. I'm a, I'm an activist, a cultural social activist and
all those other titles that you can put on top of that. So I think our behavior is, is incredibly
important and artists more than anybody has to has to, take the stand because we can
create products or, you know, that, that, that influence and that people can pay attention to.

[00:45:39] And, uh, the idea behind this podcast or my platform, my growing platform is to
attract that audience, man and, um, um, um, people want to know, and, and, uh, we've lost
faith in all the politicians and all big money and big tobacco big alcohol. I mean, we all know
that kak never work. And as you know, and, and as you say, like, and I agree with you.

[00:46:01] Now the pandemic was a serious warning sign to say, yo man, shit is not working.
So absolutely man, I agree with you there. 100%, man. Let's just keep talking man, and let's
keep sharing ideas. Um, and then so on, you know, um, I know with my next episode, I'm
talking to another gallery. Um, so I'm sort of gonna carry the same energy that we, that we
had here and sort of .hear what he has to say, um, um, and see where we can meet each
other half way, man. And, um,

[00:46:30] Aleta Armstrong: [00:46:30] I think so

[00:46:31] Wesley Pepper: [00:46:31] This digital space is for everybody and we can also, I
mean, I just, I just feel like we can, we can attract such a huge market like this there's people
in remote parts of the world that, you know, that is, and, and, and also know through.

[00:46:44] Yeah, they get a whole bunch of things. That's South African art is being
consumed or Southern African art has been consumed a lot in the West, man, you know,
and let's own our platform because I'm big on that, but I'm pan Africanist, you know? So I
feel like for yourself by yourself. I want to own everything. It must be for my, you know, for
my people.

[00:47:00] But anyway, man, uh, yeah, man, this was fantastic. This ws fantastic. I hope you
guys enjoyed today's episode, um, episode six, 17. Uh, I think it was really fantastic. It was
really, we covered some really interesting points on how Yebo gallery works and it'd be
really cool to do some follow up.
[00:47:22]