razgovarao

interviewed by 
fotografije photographs by Ana Dana Beroš (adb); Dinko Cepak (dc);
Bojan Gagić (bg); Ana Mihalić (am);
Ana Opalić (ao); Damir Žižić (dž);
Stjepan Žgela (sž)
portreti portraits Marko Mihaljević (mm)
Maroje Mrduljaš

ana dana beroš

Intermundia
ana dana beroš

Intermundia

Razgovarali u Zagrebu 23. rujna 2014.
¶ Instalacija Intermundia, autorice Ane Dane Beroš i suradnika,
dio je izložbe Monditalia postavljene u Arsenalu u Veneciji u
sklopu službenog programa 14. Venecijanskog arhitekton-
skog bijenala 2014. Multimedijalna instalacija i istraživački
projekt, koji polazi od najjužnijeg talijanskog otoka Lampe-
duse i teme imigracije, propituju političke, ali i intimne feno-
mene granica i njihove transgresije. Instalacija je nagrađena
posebnim priznanjem Bijenala.
Interviewed in Zagreb 23 September 2014
¶ The Intermundia installation of the author Ana Dana Beroš
and her collaborators is a part of the Monditalia exhibition
set up in the Arsenale in Venice as part of the official pro-
gramme of the 14th Venice Architecture Biennale in 2014.
The multimedia installation and the research project which
is focused on the southest Italian island of Lampedusa and
the topic of immigration, questions political and intimate
phenomena of the borders and their transgression. The
installation was given a Special Mention of the Biennale.
maroje mrduljaš — Monditalia, sekcija Bijenala postav-
ljena u Arsenalu, bavi se suvremenom Italijom i sastoji se od
četrdeset i jednog metodološki i medijski vrlo različitog poje-
dinačnog rada, koji se nižu po teritorijalnom rasporedu tema
– od sjevera prema jugu – pa Monditalia započinje i završava
s temama nacionalne granice. Zaključni rad sekcije je Italian
limes grupe Folder i on prikazuje nestabilnost i nefiskiranost
sjeverne granice Italije, koja se kroz vrijeme mijenja uslijed
raznih okolnosti i pregovora sa susjedima, a posebno recen-
tno, zbog promjene razine snijega i leda u Alpama. Italian
limes tako govori o utjecaju klimatskih promjena, globalne
maroje mrduljaš — Monditalia, a section of the Venice Intermundia kao dio
izložbe Moditalia, 14.
Biennale set up in the Arsenale, explores contemporary Italy.
Venecijanski bijenale
The exhibition consists of 41 individual works that are very arhitekture, Italija,
different in medium and method, displayed in the premises of 2014.
the Arsenale according to the territorial arrangement of the
Intermundia as a
themes, from the north to the south. Hence Monditalia starts part of the Moditalia
and closes with the theme of the national border. The sec- exhibition, 14th
Venice biennale of
tion’s closing work is the Folder group’s Italian limes, depict-
Architecture, 2014
ing the instability and fluidity of the northern Italian border,
which has changed over the course of time as a result of dif- (ao)
ferent circumstances and negotiations with the neighbours,

164 oris, broj 91, godina 2015. oris, number 91, year 2015 ana dana beroš, Intervju ana dana beroš, Interview 165

Maroje Mrduljaš i Ana
Dana Beroš, snimljeni u
ekologije, ali i napetka digitalnih tehnologija na državne gra-
nice koje se obično doživljavaju kao nepromjenjiva datost.
atriju Galerije Klovićevi
dvori, Zagreb, 2014., Vaš rad, s kojim Monditalia započinje, problematizira pita-
unutar postava izložbe nje imigranata na slučaju otoka Lampeduse, prvog mjesta
Arhivi, preraspodjele i
kontakta na putu od Afrike prema Italiji, Europi i onome što
premjeravanja, kustosi
Reinhard Braun i nazivamo zapadnim svijetom. Vaš rad treba čitati kroz soci-
Sandra Križić Roban, jalnu kritiku i pitanje politike migracija koje Vi povezujete s
autorica postava: Ana
tržištem rada, ali mislim da je u jednom naglašenije prostor-
Dana Beroš
nom smislu Vaš rad zanimljiv i po tome što pokazuje da gra-
Maroje Mrduljaš nica nije crta ili točka, nego dugotrajni proces, dramaturgija
and Ana Dana Beroš,
tegobnog i po život opasnog puta, neizvjesnog iščekivanja u
photographed in
the atrium of the imigrantskom kampu, zatim i neizvjesnosti koja slijedi nakon
Klovićevi Dvori Gallery, eventualog konačnog prolaska administrativno-birokratske
Zagreb, 2014, inside
granice. Dakle, nacionalne, ali i druge granice su višestruke, a
of the exhibition
set up Archives, njihov utjecaj na iskustvo pojedinca, naročito onih koji dolaze
Re-Assemblances and s druge strane, vrlo je složen. Iz moje perspektive, svi smo
Surveys, curators:
mi često u statusu deprivilegiranih imgiranata koji dolaze s
Reinhard Braun and
Sandra Križić Roban, druge strane i suočavamo se s transgresijama normi i gra-
author of the set up: nica, prelascima iz jednog statusa u drugi, bilo da se radi o
Ana Dana Beroš
sasvim institucionalnim ili pak intimnim kontekstima. Stanje
(mm) imigranta također je priča o strepnjama, neizvjesnostima, ali
i o vitalnosti, naročito o jednoj gotovo naivnoj okrenutosti
prema budućnosti. No, zašto ste se Vi zainteresirali za temu
granica i imigranata? Hrvatska je u liminalnoj situaciji; u eu,
a izvan Shengena, jedan prostor između, i ovdje i ondje ili
nigdje istovremeno, s iskustvom dugog pristupa eu koje je
and recently especially due to changes in the snow and ice
in the Alps. The Italian border therefore shows how climate
change, global ecology as and the advancement of digital
technologies affect state frontiers, which are often perceived
as an unchangeable given. Monditalia starts with your work,
in which you problematize the issue of immigrants, taking up
the case of the island of Lampedusa, the first place of contact
on the path from Africa to Italy, Europe and everything we
call the Western world. Your work should be read through the
lens of social criticism and the question of migration policy,
which you link to the labour market, but I believe your work
to be interesting also for showing that a border is not a line,
nor a dot, but a long-lasting process, the dramaturgy of an
arduous and life-threatening journey, including the anxious
wait in the detention centre, as well of the incertitude that
follows if a pass through the administrative bureaucratic bor-
der is eventually acquired. There are thus multiple national
and other borders, and their effect on the experience of an
individual, especially those arriving from the other side, is
very complex. From my perspective, all of us often find our-
selves in the status of unprivileged immigrants arriving from
the other side, in which we face transgressions of norms and
borders, transitions from one status to the other, whether
those contexts are entirely institutional or partly private. The
immigrant’s situation is a story of fears, uncertainties, but
also a story of vitality, especially of an almost naïve direc-
tionality toward the future. What made you interested in
the theme of borders and immigrants? Croatia is currently
in a liminal situation, in the eu, but outside the Schengen
zone, a space in-between, both here and there or nowhere
simultaneously, with the experience of a long-lasting eu
accession process that seemed and still seems like a long stay
in the purgatory of a migrant camp. Therefore I believe the
Lampedusa experience can also relate to the current Croa-
tian identity. To what extent does Lampedusa interest you
as a concrete case, and to what degree as a broader rule and
perhaps a metaphor? Can you explain the aspect of the post-
human view you bring in to introduction of your research?
¶ ana dana beroš — The issues of illegal migrations, social
inequality, the impossibility of belonging to a place, and their
consequences in urban and social reality – these I consider to
be key issues in Europe today, issues that we can no longer
avoid in Croatia either. In the contemporary moment of the
imperative of mobility, which is compatible with the imperative
of work flexibility, the forced territorial migrations of precari-
ous but very often highly educated workers are parallel to the
wanderings and detentions of illegal migrants. Both of these
djelovalo i još uvijek djeluje kao jedno dugo prebivanje u pur- Projekt nastoji, kroz evokativno-
gatoriju imigrantskog kampa. Zato mislim da iskustvo Lam-
peduse ima veze i s aktualnim hrvatskim identitetom. Koliko zvučno-svjetlosnu instalaciju te knjiški
Vas zanima Lampedusa kao konkretan slučaj, a koliko kao prezentirano istraživanje, inducirati
šire pravilo ili možda i metafora? Možete li pojasniti aspekt
posthumanog pogleda koji uvodite u samom uvodu istra- kod promatrača slojevito razumijevanje
živanja? ¶ ana dana beroš — Pitanja ilegalnih migracija, svijeta, ili, bolje rečeno, alternativnih
socijalne nejednakosti, nemogućnosti pripadanja mjestu te
njihovim posljedicama u urbanoj i društvenoj zbilji, smatram svjetova koji nas okružju
danas ključnim pitanjima u Europi koja ne možemo više izbje-
gavati ni u Hrvatskoj. U suvremenome trenutku imperativa
mobilnosti, koji je kompatibilan s imperativom fleksibilnosti Through an evocative sound and light
rada, prisilna teritorijalna kretanja prekarnih, najčešće viso- installation and the research presented
koobrazovanih radnika, paralelna su kretanjima, kao i pritva-
ranjima ilegalnih migranata. Obje ove trajnomigrirajuće mase in a book, the project also tries to
potplaćene su i ucijenjene radne snage, lišene elementarnih induce a layered understanding of the
ljudskih prava koja uključuju pravo na rad i dostojanstven život.
Dakle, nužno je ilegalne migrante u prvom redu shvatiti kao world within the observer. A layered
radnike koji reguliraju procijepe europskog tržišta rada i koji understanding of the world, or rather,
odgovaraju na sustavno osmišljene potrebe zapadnjačkog
društva, a ne promatrati ih samo kao jadnike u naivnoj potrazi an understanding of the alternative
za boljim životom. ¶ Moj interes za temu granica i migranata worlds that surround us
započeo je 2006. godine, kada sam se prvi puta susrela s
Intermundia kao dio
izložbe Moditalia, 14.
Venecijanski bijenale
arhitekture, Italija,
2014.
Intermundia as a
part of the Moditalia
exhibition, 14th
Venice biennale of
Architecture, 2014
(ao)

166 oris, broj 91, godina 2015. oris, number 91, year 2015 ana dana beroš, Intervju ana dana beroš, Interview 167

Intermundia kao dio ilegalnim migrantima u Motelu Ježevo, nedaleko od Zagreba,
izložbe Moditalia,
u pokušaju realizacije arhitektonskog projekta rekonstrukcije
14. Venecijanski
bijenale arhitekture, tog hrvatskog prihvatilišta za strance. Unutar tada novoo-
Italija, 2014. snovane grupe archisquad – odreda za arhitekturu savjesti,
osjećali smo da je to važan socijalni projekt u kojem želimo
Intermundia as a
part of the Moditalia sudjelovati, no natječaj je bio izričito raspisan za izvođače gra-
exhibition, 14th đevinskih radova. Iz današnje perpektive, bilo je za očekivati
Venice biennale of
kako prioritet nije bila humanizacija prostora za strance, već
Architecture, 2014
betonizacija vanjskog, zatvorskog dvorišta. Ipak, bili smo pro-
(bp) vedeni centrom pod paskom načelnika i bili smo u mogućnosti
upoznati pojedine rezidente Ježeva te saslušati njihove zastra-
šujuće i veoma slične životne priče. ¶ Još prije toga vremena,
ostalo mi je u sjećanju kako je moja majka, kustosica Nada
Beroš, 2000. inicirala te vodila umjetnički projekt u nastajanju
Motel Ježevo. Projekt se razvijao mimo etabliranih kulturnih
institucija, unutar internetskog magazina art-e-fact, čiji je
prvi broj u cijelosti bio posvećen ilegalnim migracijama te
govorio o mogućim malim utopijama. S druge strane, stvarna
obiteljska poveznica s migracijama dolazi s očeve strane. On
je kao dijete iz Makarskog primorja krajem Drugog svjetskog
rata proveo nekoliko godina u izbjegličkom kampu na Sinaju,
168 oris, broj 91, godina 2015.
permanently migrating masses are underpaid and intimidated
work forces deprived of elementary human rights, including
the right to work and lead a dignified life. It is necessary, then,
to understand illegal migrants primarily as workers who regu-
late the gaps and fissures in the European labour market and
respond to the systematically designed needs of the West-
ern society, instead of perceiving them merely as derelicts in
a naive search for a better life. ¶ My interest in the theme of
borders and migrants started in 2006, when for the first time
I encountered illegal migrants in the Ježevo Motel near Zagreb,
in an attempt to produce an architectural reconstruction pro-
ject for this Croatian reception centre for foreigners. In the, at
that time newly-founded, group archisquad – Division for an
Architecture of Conscience, we felt this was an important social
project in which we wanted to participate, but the competi-
tion was open for construction work only. Seen from today’s
perspective, it was to be expected that priority was not given
to the humanisation of this space for foreigners, but the con-
creting of the external, prison yard. Nevertheless, the centre
supervisor gave us a tour of the site and we were able to meet
some of the Ježevo inmates and hear their horrifying and very
oris, number 91, year 2015
u Africi, gdje je boravilo evakuirano stanovništvo dalmatinskih
otoka i primorja. Naravno, kao dijete sam i sama svjedočila
prisilnim migracijama, kao posljedicama Domovinskoga rata
u Hrvatskoj i rata u Bosni i Hercegovini, kada su se počet-
kom devedesetih godina prošloga stoljeća vikend-naselja na
Makarskoj rivijeri pretvarala u izbjegličke kampove i gradove
djece, dok su odrasli ostajali na bojišnicama. ¶ U kustosko-
istraživačkom projektu Intermundia, koji započinjem 2013.,
geopolitički fokus bio je na talijanskom otoku Lampedusi.
Bavljenje problematikom prošle i suvremene Italije bilo je
zadano kustoskim konceptom izložbe Monditalia. No, moj je
interes istraživanja bio širi. Projekt prikazuje slučaj Lampeduse
kao metonimije suvremenih zapadnjačkih pritvorskih uvjeta,
zatvorenih čekaonica na ulasku u tvrđavu Europu. Lampedusa
je školski primjer brisanog prostora koji nastaje na geopoli-
tičkim razmeđima, gdje se gotovo uvijek formiraju društveno
marginalizirane zajednice, bilo da je riječ o pridošlicama ili
autohtonom stanovništvu. ¶ Aspekt posthumanog pogleda
koji spominjem u samome uvodu istraživanja odnosi se na naše
identitete koji se stalno mijenjaju, na neizvjesnost ljudskog
postojanja i bivanja. Koncept posthumanog proizlazi iz polja
znanstvene fantastike, futurologije, a doslovno znači osobu
ili entitet koji egzistira u stanju onkraj ljudskog, humanog.
No, ovaj projekt nije usmjeren prema pitanju o kraju čovjeka
kao posljedici apokaliptičnog duha vremena, nego o izmica-
nju perspektiva, odnosno temelja tzv. afektivne solidarnosti,
(ao) empatije i povezivanja s drugima. U kritičkoj teoriji posthu-
mana pozicija označava, prepoznaje nesavršenost, nesuglasje
unutar ljudske jedinke, a svijet se sagledava iz heterogenih
perspektiva; nema objektivnog promatranja. Steve Nichols,
autor knjige Post-Human Manifesto iz 1988. godine, tvrdi da
su ljudska bića već postala posthumana u odnosu na prošle
generacije. Dakle, posthumana jedinka nije jasno definiran
pojedinac, već netko tko može poprimiti različite identitete i
tko razumijeva svijet iz višestruke, heterogene perspektive. I
projekt nastoji, kroz evokativno-zvučno-svjetlosnu instalaciju
te knjiški prezentirano istraživanje, inducirati kod promatrača
slojevito razumijevanje svijeta, ili, bolje rečeno, alternativnih
svjetova koji nas okružuju.
maroje mrduljaš — U Vašem radu isprepliću se dva nara-
tiva: iskustveno-fenomenološki te politički. Doživljajni, feno-
menološki, neposredno arhitektonski narativ, artikuliran je
putem prostorne instalacije koja replicira doživljaj putovanja
u utrobi broda. Tu dionicu možemo donekle povezati s tra-
dicijom umjetničkih radova koji koriste destabilizaciju nor-
malnog prostornog iskustva, poput radova Miroslawa Balke i
drugih. Politički narativ obrađuje istraživanje koje je na izložbi
ana dana beroš, Intervju
similar life stories. ¶ Even beforehand, it remained imprinted in
my memory how my mother, curator Nada Beroš, had in 2000
initiated and run the artistic project-in-the-making entitled
Ježevo Motel. The development of the project bypassed the
established cultural institutions, within the online magazine
art-e-fact, whose first issue was entirely dedicated to illegal
migrations and spoke of possible little utopias. On the other
hand, the real family connection with migrations comes from
my father’s side. A child from the Makarska littoral, at the end
of the wwii he spent several years in the refugee camp at
Sinai in Africa, which served as a temporary campsite for the
evacuated Dalmatian population. Of course, during my own
childhood I witnessed forced migrations, consequences of the
Homeland War in Croatia and the war in Bosnia and Herzego-
vina, when at the beginning of the 1990s the second-home
complexes of the Makarska riviera were transformed into refu-
gee camps and children’s towns, while the adults remained at
battlefields. ¶ In the curatorial research project Intermundia,
which I started in 2013, the geopolitical focus was placed on
the Italian island of Lampedusa. Research into the problem area
of past and contemporary Italy was defined by the curatorial
concept of the exhibition Monditalia. However, my research
interest was of a broader range. The project depicts the case of
Lampedusa as a metonym of contemporary detention condi-
tions, a closed waiting-room at the entry to Fortress Europe.
Lampedusa is a textbook example of an empty space arising
at geopolitical crossroads, where socially marginalized com-
munities are almost always being formed, be it newcomers or
indigenous population. ¶ The aspect of the post-human view
which I mention in the research introduction refers to our con-
stantly changing identities, to the uncertainty of the human
existence. The concept of the post-human stems from the field
of science fiction and futurology, and it literally stands for a
person or an entity existing in a condition beyond the human.
Yet this project does not focus on the question of the end of
man as a consequence of the apocalyptic spirit of the time.
It’s directed to the withdrawal of perspectives, of the founda-
tions of affective solidarity, of empathy and connecting with
others. In critical theory, the post-human position recognizes
imperfection, the discord within a human individual, and the
world is observed from heterogeneous perspectives, there is
no objective observation. Therefore, the post-human individ-
ual is not a clearly defined individual, but somebody who can
obtain various identities, and who understands the world from
a multiple, heterogeneous perspective. Through an evocative
sound and light installation and the research presented in a
book, the project also tries to induce a layered understanding
ana dana beroš, Interview 169
(ao) prikazano u velikoj knjizi. Istraživanje uključuje priloge poput
kritičke povijesti imigracije u Europi, kartografske prikaze
ranih tipova graničnih prijelaza te razgovore s raznim prota-
gonistima uključenima u problematiku imigranata na samoj
Lampedusi. Ta dvojnost između fenomenološkog i političkog
u Vašem je radu efektna i didaktička. Vidimo kako politika
izravno djeluje na individualno ljudsko i prostorno iskustvo.
Zato ni jedan prostorni doživljaj nije sasvim nevin ili odijeljen
od politike, a jedan od efektivnih načina djelovanja politike
jest upravo kontrola ili normiranje prostora i ljudi u njima.
Kako Vi vidite taj suodnos političkog i individualnog? Iako se
Vaša artikulacija problema, pa zatim i medijacija problema
čine logičnim, nisu tipične za arhitekturu. Možete li pojasniti
i genezu projekta te elaborirati Vaš stav o tome što su uopće
i mediji i ciljevi arhitekture? ¶ ana dana beroš — Suodnos
individulanog i političkog smatram nedjeljivim; držim kako ne
mogu postojati apolitični pojedinci, apolitični prostori. Gra-
đanska politička prava neodvojiva su ljudska prava. Talijan-
ski filozof Giorgio Agamben opisuje pojam golog života kao
ultrasuvremen, žrtveni život onih bez vlasništva, oblik poni-
znog građanstva koje se nalazi u nekvalificiranom političkom
podzemlju. Iako se u svijetu svedenom na tržišta i potrošnju
tradicionalno shvaćanje građanskog kao politički suverenog
transformira za sve, danas u Europi najradikalniji gubitak
političkih prava doživljavaju migranti. Nadalje, Giorgio Agam-
ben za izbjeglicu, pojedinca, tvrdi da označuje, nosi politički
koncept granice u sebi. Ako razmislimo o vlastitome tijelu,
uviđamo da u svakome trenutku života, čak i dok spavamo,
biramo prostor koji naše tijelo zauzima. Ti nužni izbori koje
170 oris, broj 91, godina 2015.
of the world within the observer. A layered understanding of
the world, or rather, an understanding of the alternative worlds
that surround us.
maroje mrduljaš — Your work entwines two narratives:
the experiential-phenomenal and the political. The experi-
ential, phenomenal, directly architectural, narrative is articu-
lated through a spatial installation that replicates the experi-
ence of travelling in the bowels of a ship. We can somewhat
link this segment to the tradition of artworks that use the
destabilisation of normal spatial experience, like the works of
Miroslaw Balka and others. The political narrative concerns
research presented in the big book at the exhibition. This
research includes various features such as a critical history of
migration in Europe, cartographic depictions of early types of
border-crossings, as well as interviews with various protago-
nists involved in the problem of immigrants on Lampedusa.
This ambiguity between the phenomenal and the political is
striking and didactic in your work. We can see how the poli-
tics directly affects the individual human and spatial experi-
ence. Therefore no spatial experience is completely innocent
or separated from politics, and one of the effective ways in
which the politics operates is precisely the control or norma-
tisation of the spaces and the people in them. What is your
view of this correlation of the political and the individual?
Although your articulation and mediation of the problem
seem logical, they are not typical of architecture. Can you
also explain a bit further the genesis of the project and elabo-
rate your position on the nature of the media and goals of
architecture in general? ¶ ana dana beroš — I consider the
oris, number 91, year 2015
(bg) kontinuirano radimo, to nasilje okupacije nad našim tijelima
ima velike političke posljedice tih izbora. Pojednostavljeno
rečeno, poslužit ću se riječima mladog arhitekta i pisca Léo-
polda Lamberta, autora uvodnika publikacije Intermundia: Ako
sjedimo na rubu kreveta, ne činimo isti politički intenzitet kao
onaj dok, primjerice, sjedimo na ulici usred prosvjeda. ¶ Geneza
projekta Intermundia, u ekstremno kratkom istraživačko-
produkcijskom razdoblju od samo pola godine, doživjela je
nekoliko obrata. Inicijalno se projekt trebao baviti suhom arhi-
tekturom, odnosno istraživati tipologije centara za izbjeglice,
njihove urbanističke i arhitektonske karakteristike te njihovu
evoluciju kroz povijest 20. stoljeća, a koji su bili koncentrirani
na talijanskom tlu. Uslijed iznimno tijesnih vremenskih i finan-
cijskih okvira projekta, odlučila sam se fokusirati na Centar
za identifikaciju i deportaciju Contrada Imbriacola na Lam-
pedusi te otputovati na otok na kraju svijeta, bliži afričkom
tlu negoli Siciliji. Nova okolnost bila je nemogućnost pristupa
Centru koji se u razdoblju mog terenskog istraživanja nalazio
pod rekonstrukcijom, a njegovi privremeni podstanari bili su
evakuirani u centre za ilegalne migrante na Siciliji. Tada se u
mom istraživanju događa zaokret i fokusiram se na iskustva
autohtone zajednice, koja je povijesno obilježena transmedi-
teranskim migracijama. Osim klasičnih fotografskih, video i
audiosnimki razgovora s lokalnim protagonistima, integralni
dio terenskog istraživanja činili su i terenski zapisi. Primje-
rice, zvuk vjetra – dokumentiran u staroj gradskog luci među
potopljenim, nasukanim brodovima iz Magreba, na mjestu koje
Lampedužani nazivaju Grobljem barki – poslužio je kao potka
prostorno-zvučne instalacije na izložbi u Veneciji. ¶ Što se tiče
ana dana beroš, Intervju
correlation of the individual and the political to be insepara- Unutrašnjost
Intermundije, izložba
ble, I believe such thing as apolitical individuals and apolitical
Moditalia, 14.
spaces cannot exist. Civil and political rights are also inalien- Venecijanski bijenale
able human rights. The Italian philosopher Giorgio Agamben arhitekture, Italija,
2014.
describes the notion of bare life as the ultra-contemporary,
sacrificial life of those with no ownership, a form of subservi- Inside of the
ent citizens dwelling in the unqualified political underground. Intermundia, Moditalia
Exhibition, 14th
Although in the world reduced to markets and consumption
Venice biennale of
the traditional understanding of the civil as politically sov- Architecture, 2014
ereign is being transformed for everyone, the migrants are
(adb)
those that are experiencing the most radical loss of political
rights in Europe today. Furthermore, Agamben claims that
a refugee, an individual, marks, carries a political concept of
borders within himself. If we reconsider our own body, we
realize that at every moment of our life, even while we’re
asleep, we choose the space our body occupies. These nec-
essary choices we’re continually making, this violence of the
occupation of our own bodies, carries great political conse-
quences. To simplify, I’ll use the words of the young architect
and writer Léopold Lambert, who wrote the introduction for
the publication Intermundia: If we sit at the edge of a bed,
we are not creating the same political intensity as that, for
example, we crate while sitting in the street in the middle of
a demonstration. ¶ The genesis of the project Intermundia
experienced several twists in an extremely short research and
production period of only six months. Initially the project was
supposed to deal with dry architecture, explore the typologies
of refugee centers concentrated on the Italian territory, their
urban and architectural characteristics and their evolution in
ana dana beroš, Interview 171
 Cimitero delle Barche, CIE di Contrada
brodovi koji su se Imbriacola, prazni
nasukali prevozeći Centar za identifikaciju
izbjeglice, odbačeni i deportaciju imigranata
na cestu preko puta na Lampedusi koji je u
luke na mjesto koje trenutku istraživačkog
Lampedužani zovu boravka na otoku bio
Grobljem barki zatvoren radi obnove i
izgradnje dva dodatna
Cimitero delle Barche, paviljona, travanj 2014.
The boats that capsized
bringing the refugees, CIE di Contrada
dumped across the Imbriacola, Vacant
road from the port in Identification and
what Lampedusans call Expulsion Centre
The Boat Cemetery for immigrants
in Lampedusa,
(sž), (adb) temporarily closed
due to reconstruction
works and erection
of two new pavilions,
April 2014

(sž), (adb)

medija koje koristi arhitektura, mogu se složiti s mnogima kako
je arhitektura danas postala transmedijska. Ne stvara se samo
u offline dimenziji, grubo rečeno od betona i cigle, nego i u
online sferi. U ostvarivanju ciljeva arhitekture svi mediji su
dopušteni ili, bolje rečeno, nužni. Usudila bih se reći kako je
osnovna zadaća arhitekture artikulirati prostornu misao spo-
sobnu za postavljanje pitanja o gorućim problemima na druga-
čiji način, a time i za stvaranje drugačije stvarnosti. Arhitektura
mora pružiti prostor za razumijevanje egistencijalnoga stanja
pojedinca i društva te konstruirati podlogu za dostojanstven
život. Mi znamo tko smo i kamo pripadamo upravo pomoću
ljudskih konstrukcija, materijalnih i intelektualnih.
maroje mrduljaš — Pareleno s Vašim projektom, Ivana
Dragičević i Dino Cepak snimili su dojmljiv dokumentarni
film Hotel Europa, koji se također bavi Lampedusom. Radni
materijal za film koristite i u svom radu, kao i fotografije Ane
Mihalić koja se bavila temom imigranata u Hrvatskoj. Akti-
virali ste već postojeće radove i uključili ih u svoj rad. Nije
toliko riječ o neposrednoj suradnji, nego više o dijeljenju. S
the course of the 20th century. Due to the project’s exception-
ally tight time and financial constraints, I decided to focus
on the Center for identification and deportation Contrada
Imbriacola on Lampedusa and travel to the island at the end
of the world that is closer to the African mainland than to
Sicily. The new circumstance was that it was impossible to
actually get into the Center since it was being reconstructred
during my field research, while its temporary tenants were
evacuated to centers for illegal migrants on Sicily. At that
moment a turn took place in my research and I focused on
the experiences of the indigenous community, historically
marked by trans-Mediterranean migrations. Alongside the
standard photographic, video and audio recordings of my
interviews with local protagonists, an integral part of the field
research was the so-called field-recordings. Such as the sound
of wind – documented in the old city harbour among the
sunk, stranded ships from the Maghreb, a place known among
the people of Lampedusa as the ships graveyard– served as
a weft for the spatial sound installation at the exhibition in
druge strane, dizajnerica Rafela Dražić Vam je važna partne-
rica u projektu. Kako Vi vidite teme fluidnog prelaženja tema
Kroz snažnu dramaturgiju
iz medija u medij, suradničkih mreža u kulturi i arhitekturi? dvominutnog čina koji se odvija
¶ ana dana beroš — Vjerujem kako se kreativna misao
može razvijati jedino u odnosu s drugim i drugačijim mislima
unutar instalacije, zajedno
te kroz mogućnost sagledavanja pojava iz različitih očišta i s smo konstruirali višeosjetilnu
divergentnih pozicija. Razumijevanje takve poliperspektivno-
sti ključno je za fluidno izmjenjivanje, nadopunjavanje medija
arhitekturu
unutar pojedinog konceptualnog okvira, unutar svih surad-
ničkih mreža. Osim Rafaele Dražić, koja je oblikovala golemu
unikatnu knjigu koja dokumentira politički narativ istraživa- Through the strong dramaturgy of
nja, ključni partneri u projektu su Bojan Gagić, multimedijalni
umjetnik, te Miodrag Gladović, elektroakustični inženjer – the two-minute-long act taking
poznati kao dvojac lightune.g. Inovativnim istraživanjima u place inside the installation,
području luminoakustike, u kojima transformiraju svjetlosne
signale u zvučne slike, za projekt Intermundia stvorili su doj- together we have constructed
mljivu svjetlosno-zvučnu instalaciju koja potiče promatrača na a multisensory architecture
neposrednu reakciju, potapajući ga u borbu za goli život. Kroz
snažnu dramaturgiju dvominutnog čina koji se odvija unutar

172 oris, broj 91, godina 2015. oris, number 91, year 2015 ana dana beroš, Intervju ana dana beroš, Interview 173
 Earth Paradise, točka Tu i tamo. Portret
iskrcavanja imigranata, mladog muškarca
nazvana najljepšom imena Prince Wale
plažom na svijetu. Iz Shonyiki, azilanta koji
dokumentarnog filma je napustio rodnu
Hotel Europa Ivane Nigeriju zbog obiteljske
Dragičević i Dinka tragedije koju su
Cepaka, Lampedusa, uzrokovali religijski
Italija, 2013. i etnički sukobi.
Fotografija prikazuje
Earth Paradise, Princea tijekom
Debarkment point for vremena opuštanja,
immigrants. Named a snimljena je u rijeci
the most beautiful Mrežnici u blizini
beach in the world. Zagreba
From documentary film
Hotel Europa, Ivana Here and there, The
Dragičević and Dinko portrait of a young
Cepak, Lampedusa, man called Prince Wale
Italy, 2013 Shonyiki, the asylee
who left his native
(dc) Nigeria due to a family
tragedy caused by
religious and ethnic
conflicts. The photo
shows Prince during his
leisure time, recorded
in the river of Mrežnica,
in the vicinity of
Zagreb, Croatia

instalacije, zajedno smo konstruirali višeosjetilnu arhitekturu.
Riječ je o arhitekturi koja se ne oslanja na jednodimenzionalne
perceptivne podražaje vidom, nego nas primiče k sebi osluški-
vanjem, naglo odgurava zaglušivanjem te nanovo unosi unutar
doživljajnog prostora.
maroje mrduljaš — Sudjelovali ste na najvažnijoj svjet-
skoj izložbi arhitekture, a u radu na projektu imali ste priliku
neposredno surađivati s Koolhaasom i njegovim suradnicima.
Vama interakcija s vodećim protagonostima internacio-
nalne arhitektonske debate i nije novost, s obzirom na vaše
druge projekte, poput Think Space programa, no Koolhaas
i amo ipak su epicentar aktualne arhitektonske misli i oni
koji postavljaju standarde. Možemo se slagati ili ne slagati
s Koolhaasovim stavovima i pozicijama, ali je činjenica da je
on taj koji otvara nova problemska pitanja, istražuje nove
arhitektonske koncepte i pozicionira arhitekturu drugačije
od svih ostalih. Jednostavno se nalazi u poziciji prethodnice
u kojoj bi bio i sa i bez medijske pompe koja ga okružuje.
Kakva su bila Vaša iskustva rada na Bijenalu? Kako Vi vidite
Koolhaasovu ulogu na Bijenalu? Mislim da je ovaj Bijenale
jedan od najpreciznijih i najkonzistentnijih od svih dosa-
dašnjih izdanja i da je Koolhaasov koncept tako postavljen
da on apsorbira i one koji mu pokušavaju izmaći. Koliko je
Venice. ¶ As to the media that architecture uses, I can agree
with many who say that architecture has nowadays become
transmedial. We don’t create only in the offline dimension,
in concrete and brick, but in the online sphere as well. All
media are allowed, or rather necessary, to attain the goals of
architecture. I dare say that the fundamental task architecture
has is to articulate spatial thinking, thinking capable of ask-
ing questions about burning issues in a different way, hence
of also creating a different reality. Architecture must offer
a space for understanding of the existential condition of an
individual and of society, and must also construct a founda-
tion for a life with dignity. We know who we are, and where
we belong to, precisely through human constructions, both
material and intellectual.
maroje mrduljaš — In parallel to your project, Ivana
Dragičević and Dinko Cepak have made an impressive docu-
mentary entitled Hotel Europa, also dealing with Lampedusa.
You use the working material for the film in your work too,
as well as the photographs of Ana Mihalić who explored the
theme of immigrants in Croatia. You have activated already
existing works and included them in your work. It’s not so
much about the direct cooperation, but more about shar-
ing. On the other hand, the designer Rafaela Dražić is an
Koolhaasov intelektualni utjecaj implicitno ili eksplicitno pri-
sutan u projektima i radovima na Bijenalu? Koliko je Bijenale
direktno kuriran, a koliko je njegova konzistencija posljedica
inteligentno postavljene strukture i krovnih tema svake od
sekcija izložbe? ¶ ana dana beroš — Koolhaasov osnovni
uvjet bio je stvoriti Bijenale koji će više govoriti o arhitekturi
negoli o arhitektima. Pretpostavljam da se s vremenom razvila
ambicija za postavljanjem izložbe koja će koristiti istraživanje
kao arhitektonski alat za razumijevanje izgrađenog okoliša, a
ne nužno prikazivati arhitektonske projekte. U svakoj od triju
komponenti izložbe Fundamentals, Koolhaasov tim trudio
se unijeti promjenu u odnosu na prethodne bijenale. Osim
izložbe Elements of Architecture, koju je neposredno kurirao
sam Koolhaas, dosljednost cjelokupnog Bijenala posljedica je
inteligentno postavljene i provedene strukture svake izložbe.
¶ Izložba u koju je bio uključen moj projekt Intermundia, multi-
disciplinarni je izložbeni projekt u nastajanju, naziva Mondita-
lia. Bila sam među četrdesetak predstavljenih autora ili autor-
skih timova, posve autonomna u svojem istraživačkom radu,
produkciji i postavljanju instalacije. U konačnici, nagrađena
sam za taj rad posebnim priznanjem za istraživački projekt
na otvorenju 14. Venecijanskog bijenala arhitekture, u lipnju
2014. Iz razgovora s glavnim kustosom izložbe Monditalia,
(am)
important partner for you in the project. What is your view
on the fluid transfer of themes from one medium to the
other, on cooperation networks in culture and architecture?
¶ ana dana beroš — I believe creative thinking can develop
only in relation to other and different ways of thinking, and
through the possibility of observing phenomena from dif-
ferent perspectives and divergent positions. Understand-
ing such a multiplicity of perspectives is crucial for a fluid
exchange, for complementing the mediums within a con-
ceptual framework, within all cooperation networks. Besides
Rafaela Dražić, who designed the huge book documenting
the political narrative of the research, my key partners in
the project are the multimedia artist Bojan Gagić and the
sound engineer Miodrag Gladović. Working together under
the name lightune.g, this duo is known by their innovative
research in luminoacoustics, in which they transform light
signals to sound images. For Intermundia they created an
impressive light and sound installation that incites a direct
reaction in the observer, immersing him into a fight for bare
life. Through the strong dramaturgy of the two-minute-long
act taking place inside the installation, together we have con-
structed a multisensory architecture. An architecture that
does not rely to one-dimensional perceptive visual stimulus,

174 oris, broj 91, godina 2015. oris, number 91, year 2015 ana dana beroš, Intervju ana dana beroš, Interview 175
Intermundia, Francuski
paviljon, samostalna
izložba unutar
programa Kultura
promjene Studentskog
centra u Zagrebu,
5. – 21.veljače 2015.
Intermundia, the
French Pavilion, solo
exhibition within the
Culture of Change
programme of the
Zagreb Student Centre,
5–12 February 2015
(dž)
Arhitektura mora pružiti prostor za
razumijevanje egistencijalnoga stanja
pojedinca i društva te konstruirati
podlogu za dostojanstven život. Mi
znamo tko smo i kamo pripadamo
upravo pomoću ljudskih konstrukcija,
materijalnih i intelektualnih
Architecture must offer a space
for understanding of the existential
condition of an individual and of
society, and must also construct a
foundation for a life with dignity. We
know who we are, and where
we belong to, precisely through
human constructions, both
material and intellectual
176 oris, broj 91, godina 2015.
but rather pulls us to itself through listening, suddenly pushes
us away through deafening garble, only to bring us back inside
the experience space.
maroje mrduljaš — You have participated in the most
important world exhibition of architecture, and during the
work on your project you have had the opportunity to directly
cooperate with Rem Koolhaas and his associates. Interaction
with leading figures of international architectural debate is
no news to you, considering other projects of yours, such as
the Think Space programme. However Koolhaas and amo
represent the epicentre of present architectural thinking
and set the standards. We can agree or not with Koolhaas’
viewpoints, but the fact is that he is the one who is opening
new problem questions, exploring new architectural concepts
and positioning architecture differently than all the others.
He is simply in the position of forerunner, in which he would
be with or without the media frenzy that’s surrounding him.
What are your experiences of working at the Biennale? What
is your view of Koolhaas’ role at the Biennale? I believe this
Biennale is one of the most precise and the most consistent
versions organised so far and that Koolhaas’ concept was
set in such a way as to absorb even those who try to evade
it. To what extent is the intellectual influence of Koolhaas
implicitly or explicitly present in the projects and works at the
Biennale? To what extent was the Biennale directly curated,
and to what extent is its consistency a consequence of the
intelligently set structure and the main themes of every sec-
tion of the exhibition? ¶ ana dana beroš — Koolhaas’ main
condition was that he should be able to create a Biennale that
would speak more of architecture than of architects. I presume
that over the course of time an ambition had arisen to curate an
exhibition that would use research as an architectural tool for
understanding the built environment, and not necessarily pre-
sent architectural projects. In each of the three components of Ippolitom Pestellinijem Laparellijem, koji sam nedavno vodila Laparelli for the show Reality of Space on Croatian Radio, I Intermundia, Francuski
the Fundamentals exhibition, the Koolhaas team tried to intro- za emisiju Stvarnost prostora Trećeg programa Hrvatskog learned that Rem Koolhaas’ intention was to create a public paviljon, samostalna
izložba unutar
duce a change in relation to the previous Biennales. Besides the radija, saznala sam da je intencija Rema Koolhaasa bila stvoriti space instead of exhibition space; to design an urban condition
exhibition Elements of Architecture, curated by Rem Koolhaas javni prostor umjesto izložbenog, odnosno umjesto dizajnira- at the Biennale, instead of designing an exhibition. The role of
programa Kultura
promjene Studentskog
himself, the consistency of the entire Biennale directly results nja izložbe projektirati urbano stanje na Bijenalu. Uloga Rema Rem Koolhaas was not only curatorial, he also had the func- centra u Zagrebu,
5. – 21.veljače 2015.
from the intelligent way in which the structure of every exhibi- Koolhaasa nije bila samo kustoska, selektorska, nego je imao i tion of a cultural planner. Of course, he and his curatorial team
tion was set and conducted. ¶ The exhibition that included my funkciju kulturnog planera. Naravno, on i njegov kustoski tim took care of the exhibition content, but they also tried to pay Intermundia, the
project, Intermundia, is a multidisciplinary work-in-progress brinuli su o sadržaju izložbe, no trudili su se brinuti i o sveuku- attention to the entire creative reorganisation of the Biennale, French Pavilion, solo
exhibition within the
exhibition project entitled Monditalia. I was one of around forty pnoj kreativnoj reorganizaciji Bijenala; uključili su sve njegove they included all of its departments in an unique architectural
authors or teams presented, completely autonomous in my odjele u jedinstvenu arhitektonsku manifestaciju. Ideja repro- event. The idea of reprogramming the Biennale, which was on
Culture of Change
programme of the
research work, production and installation set-up. In the end, I gramiranja Bijenala, koji je trajao gotovo punih šest mjeseci i for almost six months, during which the programmes of Bien- Zagreb Student Centre,
5–12 February 2015
was given a Special Mention for a research project at the vernis- tijekom kojeg su se izmjenjivali programi Bijenala plesa, filma, nale interchanged, including the Dance, the Film, the Theater
sage of the 14th Venice Biennale of Architecture in June 2014. kazališta i glazbe, nešto je što bi u budućnosti moglo postati and the Music Biennale, is something that in the future could (dž)
Having interviewed Monditalia’s chief curator Ippolito Pestellini novo naslijeđe Venecijanskog bijenala. become the new heritage of the Venice Biennale.
oris, number 91, year 2015 ana dana beroš, Intervju ana dana beroš, Interview 177