[Hassan Ilyas] November 22nd

has just passed

It must be in your knowledge that

it was Maulana Syed Sulaiman Nadvi's

death anniversary

You have mentioned Syed Saab in your essay

the one you wrote about Dabistan-e-Shibli

You came to know about Syed Saab's life

his journey

firstly through Dabistan-e-Shibli

Shibli was one of his influences

You also wrote that

later

his affiliations changed as well

How do you view Syed Saab's

intellectual journey?

his personal contributions

his qualities

and also his literary aspects that

which we come across

[Ghamid] He is one of the most

prominent figures of Dabistan-e-Shibli

and about the characteristics

of Dabistan-e-Shibli

I have written quite a number of times

And I have also elaborated upon it

Maulana Shibli's personality

was a Majma-ul-Bahrain
(a confluence of two oceans)

that is, in him

for modern things

he had a special interest

a special sensibility

you find in him

even if he wasn't very well acquainted

with the modern disciplines

during his time

But you can find its sensibility in him

and secondly

he is one of the great scholars

of traditional disciplines

He is well-renowned

as he should be

He has made many great contributions

He presided over Nadvat ul-Ulama

and there he mentored

Maulana Abul Kalam Azad

In the same way he mentored

Syed Sulaiman Nadvi

Both of them

who are extraordinary personalities

They rose under the influence of Shibli

If you look at their early days

and pay attention

Syed Sulaiman had however

stated that his entire life's mission was

that he will bring his teacher's works

to their completion

and he spent his entire life

in Shibli Academy

which you call Darul Musanifeen

He also completed his Seerat-un Nabi

In this entire school of thought

Shibli's fundamental
work need to be understood

and what it is?

If you look closely

then he is already a writer

His actual relation is with literature

Everyone knows that

his Urdu poetry

has an entire collection

His Persian poetry

is very extraordinary

In it you will find the

vigor, passion and style of Hafiz

and he also has good hold

over Persian literature

Sher-ul-Ajam as you know

is a very extraordinary work

Many people have written critiques on it

It was anyway an extraordinary work

which happened through his pen

In the same way

if you look at Muwazna-e Anees-o-Dabeer

If you look at his work on

Masnavi of Maulana Rumi

so Shibli comes from a

strong literary background

and another is history

So literature and history

These are the specialties

of Maulana Shibli

[Hassan] Okay

[Ghamidi] And this influenced his

students as well
It has influenced them extraordinarily

All of us know

that in Arabic literature as well

he was a student of Maulana

Faizul Hasan Saharanpuri

and Maulana Faizul Hasan Shaharanpuri

there is no doubt that

he deserves to be called the

litterateur of India

If Shah Waliullah was Imam ul Hind

then Maulana Faizul Hasan Sahahranpuri

was Adeeb ul Hind

If you look at his

exegesis on Hamasa

or his exegesis on Sharh-al Muallaqaat

Then you can fathom

the world that he has created here

especially Arabic literature

He had an exceptional taste

for Jahiliya (Pre-Islamic) literature

such an exceptional understanding

He sees it in such a way

that after which the doors to

understanding Quran-e-Majeed open

So Maulana Shibli is his student

and in him too

you find the same kind of

taste for Arabic literature

Although he did not take

it up as his special subject

The same is the case with Syed Saab

However, to make the content

of religion the subject
or to make principles the subject

or to make Quran-e-Majeed the subject

and to work on its exposition

and interpretation

or to consolidate its principles

He did not choose to do this

This wasn't opted by Shibli either

and it wasn't opted by Syed Saab either

A great scholar studies a lot of things

and many things come under discussion

with him

and in that he has some opinions as well

Although if you see some works of Shibli

and see some things of Syed Saab

in their Seerah itself, if you

see some aspects

then there you can see that the content

of Deen has come up for debate

But it is not their specialized

subject in that manner

They do not study it

critically in that way

In their work you won't find those things

which for instance you later find in

the work of Imam Farahi

But

the knowledge systems of Muslims

and the capability to ratiocinate with

those knowledge systems

The literary wealth of Muslims

and their skill in that literary wealth

Similarly, their history

The different aspects of their history

secrets and obscure matters

These are their special subject matter

And this is the reason

that most of their compositions

are of this nature

If you see Shibli

then he wrote Al-Faruq

Al Ma'mun

In the same way he wrote Imam Abu Hanifa's

Biography

So they took literary culture

to great heights

About himself

the time he started writing the biography

then you know what he said

that tales of ajam, madda and abbasids

I had penned down

I was to be the visitor the shrines of

strangers

but now I am writing about

the life of the last Prophet

It is the grace of God

that I had to end with this blessing

So in the end he passed

away from this world

while writing about the Life of Prophet

Two volumes were written by him

and he adviced that

Syed Saab must bring it to completion

So Syed Saab has completed it

and there is no doubt that

in his relation with his teacher

the ability to understand his knowledge,
he paid his due

As I have already stated that

his actual preoccupations are of this

nature

The very first book of Syed sir

is on Omar Kahyyam

and in that he has

as you know

that Omar Khayyam's life

his knowledges

his background

in all of these things

the modern methods that are there

of writing biography

or modern ways of writing life history

he has used them in his writing

In Shibli as well we find

its huge influence

If you look at Sirat-un-Nabi itself

then it is written in the same manner

as the tradition that was

established in the west

that some personality's life and works

should be written down

that you must write

their biography too

and then also tell

in his life

the thoughts that arose

or those which he made his subject

what were they?

This is the method

If I had strong differences with the
matter of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

There we cannot adopt this method

However, he adopted that very method

This is the only reason

that later

you see many copies of Sirat

which are such that

in which the topics of biography are

not like they should be

all those knowledge sciences have

come under debate

which can be called the

knowledge sciences of Deen

In that he ensures a great

deal of precaution

Because Deen is not his actual subject

by Deen I mean

the content of Deen

Deen becomes the actual

subject matter when

the principles of Deen

the principles of interpretation

of the Quran

the interpretation of Quran-e-Majeed

the explanation of Sunnat and Hadis

when this becomes your actual subject

whereas in his work all of

this comes secondarily

because it comes secondarily

then he tries his best

that the general tradition

that is established

he tries not to deviate from it

that is amongst Muslims there

is a knowledge system

which has identified the things of Deen

It is exactly that kind of thing

which for instance

if you pick up Al-Kashshaaf

It is an extraordinary exegesis

Zamakshari is one of the leaders in

language and literature

Every man is compelled to turn to him

Razi is also compelled to quote him

Baizawi is also compelled to cite him

People of later times also

do not talk without referring to him

That is because in these fields

his status is extraordinary

But in matters of jurisprudence

he would not do any research

he only states the Hanafi point of view

In the same way

in the matter of traditions as well

he does not adopt the method

of research or critique

So this is not a matter of shortcoming

Any man of knowledge

can assess that which field

he needs to work in

You can see in later periods too

that you will find the same thing

for instance in Maulana Ali Miyan

The same thing you will find

in Dr. Hamidullah

The same thing you will find

in Dr. Mahmood Ahmed Ghazi

So this is one way of viewing

in which that tradition of knowledge

is carried forward

It is examined from any

newly available parameter

and mostly

the history of knowledge

history of great personalities

political history

all of these things are stated

therefore efforts are made

that any new novel way is not found

In two or three places

where he expressed such kind of opinion

for instance

in the matter of Hell

whether it will be there forever?

and in the biography

when there was objection to it

It was then redacted

[Hassan] Okay

[Ghamidi] So usually these kind of things

he used to consider them an obstacle

in the reception of his books

If you look at his work

and in him there was a special kind of

taste for his love of Deen

the expression of which

on some occasions

expressed itself in the national matters

of Muslims

On some occasions

it happened in the matter of

the political personalities of Muslims

Maybe it would be a
matter of surprise for you

that he has written poems in praise

of Muhammad Ali Jinaah

and then later

he became a disciple of
Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi

so it was as if the title Hakeem-ul-Ummat

can be used for Shibli's greatest student

that is, Imam Farahi was also his student

Abul Kalam Azad was also his student

but Syed Saab's relation

was exactly like the one

that our teacher Amin Ahsan Islahi

had with Imam Farahi

So Hakkem-ul-ummat
Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi took him

as if in his embrace

and he spent the later years

of his life in the same way

and he continued gaining a lot from him

in this way he was connected to

the tradition of Sufism

However, he was one of

the most prominent people

There is no doubt in it

Allam Iqbal used to say about him

that he is last shining light

of Khanwada e ulama

here was great friendship between them

and whenever any scholarly matter

required some clarification

then Iqbal used to turn

towards him for consultation

They have also traveled together

Although Safarnama-e-Afghanistan

after which he has written

Pasche Bayad kard Ae aqwam-e Sharq

it happened in the company of Syed Saab

This relation to Syed sir remained

Syed sir also stated his impressions

of Iqbal in some of the gatherings

Many people narrate them

In that there are critiques too

and he anyway was one of his champions

on his Masnavis,

on his speech

he has written reviews in his time

so he is amongst the great

people of our history

You must not expect from him

that on the matters of Deen

the complications that are there

the problems that are there

or the issues with principles

that are there

that he can guide you on such matters

that is, where he stands in

the tradition of Muslims

tradition of knowlege

from where he stands in your legacy

the knowledges in which he is interested

especially
history,

biography

and in the same way some

other literary subjects

in these he will guide you

and in that there is no doubt

that he is among one of the greatest

[Hassan] Okay, Ghamidi sir

you explained in great detail

and since you mentioned

so in my mind his poetry collection

by the name of Armaghan-e Sulaiman

In that too

because he had given baiyah to

Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi

so he has written many extraordinary poems

for him

One aspect that I would like to know

that Syed Saab himself studied

at Nadvat-ul-Uloom

from there he graduated and excelled

and then he was handed over

its administration by Shibli

and then he handled it

We talked about Deoband

You told us about the movement of Deoband

its background and its roots

we discussed the extent of its strength

and the way the movement arose

organically in the world

within India itself

on one hand such big

Deoband movement of staunch

traditionalists is in full swing

and along with it we also see

the birth of Nadvat Ulama

How do you view the existence of Nadva

and then its effects

on the religious society

of India at that time

How did it affect them?

And today as well

Do you distinguish

between the Deobandi traditon

and the tradition of Nadvat-ul-Uloom

which is running parallel to it?

[Ghamidi] Nadva could not beget any

new tradition in Deen

Among the characteristics of Nadva

one thing was that

That they started studying Arabic

language as a living language

and not merely for the comprehension

of old knowledge systems

so as to understand them

or so that people can return

the ancient knowledge

or go deep into the secrets of those

texts

or so as to be able to write Arabic

language or speak it

and the dialect that is being written

and spoken in the Arab world presently

To develop the taste for it within oneself

One thing was this

Second thing was history

As I told you

when the word 'history' is spoken

then it merely evokes the history of
events in our mind

No there is history of knowledge

There is history of principles

There is history of arts

They give more importance to this

Take Maulana Ali Miyan

who later became the biggest

person of this school

If you see his work

then most of his books are on this

that is Ummat-e-Muslimah

The knowledge systems of Ummat-e-Muslimah

the background of Ummat-e-Muslimah

the history of Ummat-e-Muslimah

These are their subjects

You can see his book

Tareekh-e-Dawat-o-Azeemat

That how he has

through his own mystical

interpretation of Deen

keeping it in that background

how he has viewed the whole pillars

of Dawah

and he has put forth a beautiful

introduction before you

In my view it is not a critique

that what is someone's viewpoint

For instance, if you read Bertrand

Russell's history of philosophy

then every man knows

how it is affected by
Russell's personal views
that is whether you read
the history by Bernard

or you read the history of philosophy by

Frank Thilly

or if you look at Will Durant

then you can clearly see the

difference In Russell from their histories

So extraordinary people

who keep a personal viewpoint

it has its own effects

in any case, on their statements

and on the way they see things

In the world of knowledge

one should accept this

That is you and I can disagree with it

So the fundamental characteristic of

the Nadva tradition have been these mostly

As a result in their tradtion

the modern disciplines that we have

or the new personalities that were born

like Maulana Abul A'la Maududi

like Maulana Abul Kalam Azad

So for these people also, there was

a generous acceptance

[Hassan] Okay

[Ghamidi] And mostly they try that

they remain connected to them

As you can see

that Maulana Ali Miyan

appreciates Imam Farahi a lot

He event went to a special gathering

and he expressed his emotions

Syed Saar is anyway from his forebears

He has written a lot about him

The best and the most

excellent compositions

if you select any

introductions on Imam Farahi

then they are the ones written

by Syed Sulaiman Nadvi

In spite all of this

that is, what is that partial viewpoint

How to view Deen with it?

How to view the facts of Deen with it?

He very closely brushes past it

He does not make it his subject matter

That is because his perspective

is very different

Deoband on its contrary,

stands on an actual interpretation of Deen

Actual

So this is the reason

that much time hasn't passed

that in Nadva's conception of Deen

and in Deoband's conception of Deen

it becomes difficult to distinguish

between them

So they have to a great extent

become assimilated in Deoband

and then their relationship also

developed with its personalities

the interpretation on which Deoband stands

It is in essence a mystical
interpretation of Deen

The discipline in whose

background it stands
is that discipline of our tradition

which after passing through many stages

it has come into being as

a legal interpretation

in opposition to a Salafi interpretation

Therefore in Deoband

you will find more emphasis on this

that is, they will be deeply

immersed in it

they won't accept anything

in opposition to it easily

For them it is not so easy to accommodate

The case with Nadva is

completely different

that is because they view all

the previous history

in a historical background

and today whatever history is in making

it is ready to accommodate it as well

so the difference in disposition

difference in character

in relation to language

the difference in viewpoints

These things are present

But it cannot be said that

the dependence on Deoband's

mystical interpretation

of its scholarly background

that Nadva has deviated

from it significantly

Nadva more or less stands on it too

Some small individual deviation

is present everywhere

in totality
there is no significant departure in
Shibli's work either

You can see his Al-Kalam or Ilm al-Kalam

You can see his historical works

You can see the topics of his biography

A research oriented style, point of view

All of these things are present

But in the matter principles

if anywhere

there is some difference of opinions

then usually they have adopted the method

of digression or of recapitulation

They haven't adopted the

style of Imam Farahi

So this is how things are there

What are principles?

How should Deen be approached?

How should the Quran be viewed?

Instead of making these their subject

they make the inheritance of Muslims

or the literary heritage of Muslims

their subject matter

And this in itself is a very big service

It should be viewed within its context

One should gain advantage from it

In that you can disagree with

their viewpoint as well

Deen and the relation with Deen

How to know Deen?

What is the nature of the mystical

interpretation of Deen?
In this they are more or less
standing within the tradition

Therefore when they are

standing within tradition

Then you cannot differentiate between

them and Deoband in this apsect

[Hassan] Okay Ghamid sir,

you stated it very beautifully

One aspect that came to my mind

It is that your own background of Deen,

your school of thought

It is obvious that you aren't

in systematic way, affiliated

that with a tradition of a school

you must be connected so that

you have your own school

and which has its own history

But your elders that are there

Maulana Amin Ahsan Islahi

or Maulana Farahi

We see that their roots are

present in India

in the form of institutions

Be it Madarsa-tul-Islah

or be it Nadwat-ul-Ulama

The scholars there appreciate them

and also understand their

place of scholarship

But what is the reason for this

for that which you say

the formation of a group consciousness

that you rise up from your roots

and stand in the form of a strong tree

so that even when there

are waves of oppositions

then below there are people

standing to protect it

Madarsa-tul-Islah as well

and Nadwat-ul-Ulama also

even if they were standing at a different

place from Deoband

Then they themselves could

not become the guardians

or the trustees of this new tradition

They could not adapt to it

What is the reason for this?

[Ghamidi] My opinion is that

the elders that you have named

You can take Imam Farahi

You can take my teacher Maulana Amin

Ahsan Islahi

Maulana however migrated from there

he spent very less time there

So these people they were

not from the village

That is, on a fundamental basis

they were from the world of literature

and knowledge

And they made these knowledges

their guide and center

Their effects are present everywhere

They are present among the people of Nadva

and especially in Madarsa-Tul-Islah

they are present affectionately

But on the decisive level

that a new school of thought

could establish roots

and that occasions to work

on its foundation could arise
This thing that is

According to my opinion

it wasn't intended for it

[Hassan] Okay

[Ghamidi] That is

I have seen it while living with Ustad

Imam for more or less 25 years

In his place we did

not feel the need for it

Therefore, in my view

the new tradition that he introduced

only that tradition should

be carried forward

that this entire Ummat is our congregation

All these madarsas are our madarsas

all these A'imma are our A'imma

all these scholars are our scholars

The tradition of knowledge

instead of becoming a part of such

cohesive groups

they should stand apart from it

and continue their journey

and they should work

within this entire Ummat

So this is what I like more

I view this with respect

So for this reason

I have myself in my life

if ever there was such an inclination

so I got rid of it very quickly

[Hassan] Okay Ghamidi sir

Last question in relation to this series

that I would like to ask you

That Allama Iqbal was a

man of modern education

with a background in philosophy

his mastery over western disciplines

and on the other hand

keeping a strong hold over our oriental

disciplines and traditional knowledge

as we say

Tradition-oriented scholars

Nadva's relation with Iqbal

or if I can put it differently

in that matter

the romance that is there

You can see the tradition of Nadva

You can see the tradition of Deoband

the scholars of the Subcontinent

how do I put it

in plain words I would say

that a man without a beard

and a person who has lived a life

after the western fashion

and he has brought that same

background and education

into the Subcontinent

This affection of the scholars

and their love

and the cynosure of their eyes

be it Allama Anwar Shah Kashmiri

be it Syed Sulaiman Nadvi

be it Shibli

or Maulana Maududi
All these scholars

have an extraordinary relationship

with Iqbal

What is the reason for this?

[Ghamidi] It is the same reason

that I told you about Nadva

The way Nadva stands in the heritage

of the background of Muslims

Iqbal too stands in the poetic heritage

of Muslims

he stands in that background

You can see that he says

"pir-e-rumi pie-e-man roshan zamir"

that is he has presented Rumi

as his spiritual guide

The history of Muslims

of a thousand years more or less

is under a mystical interpretation

the most extraordinary manifestation

of mystical interpretation

has occured in poetry

whether you read Sheikh Attar

or you read Sanai

or you read Rumi

and many other people if you see

then Iqbal is a man from that tradition

When Iqbal recites a couplet

especially as he has chosen to write in

Persian

so the emotions that he expresses in it

the relation that he expresses with

the heritage of this Ummat

The dream he has for Muslims

in that there is no such
thing which is foreign

and because he is a very great person

and the extent to which he

is an excellent writer

and the way he expresses his thoughts

That form commands respect from everyone

so due to this reason

if any disagreements could

have arisen with Iqbal

then it would have arisen only then

when he would have expressed his thoughts

on a rational or scholarly basis

which he did later on in his Khutbaat.

in his book The Reconstruction of

Religious Thought in Islam

So you can see that this entire

tradition dismissed it

That is, if you ask Deoband

scholars separately

They will also not accept it

Maulana Ali Miyan who has

written Raway-e-Iqbal

and who has praised Iqbal a lot

He had a passionate relation with Iqbal

And in Arabic,

to the Arab world

he introduced Iqbal to
them on a grand scale

He takes remarkable inspiration

from Iqbal's poetry

You can look up his own opinions on

Khutbaat

you can look up the opinions

of Syed Sulaiman
So due to this reason

that aspect of Iqbal

could not come forward so much

In actual he is a poet

in actual

It is obvious that along with it

he has some scholarly underpinnings

he has some views as well

and Khutbaat have a great importance

that is, they, in essence, give Muslims

the good news of a new era

They tell us that your

knowledge especially

and your religious thought

what kind of transformation do they need?

So it is his great scholarly opus

What are its results or its concerns?

In that as you know I critique

a lot of things

but in its originality

it is an extraordinary work

This has been completely ignored

by the religious circles

I have the chance to talk with

Maulana Syed Abul Ala Maududi

on many occasions

He did not used to like the Khutbaat

[Hassan] Okay!

[Ghamidi] Iqbal's poetry

Iqbal's literature

Iqbal's emotional sensibility

The kind of love Iqbal has

for Ummat-e-Muslimah

The way he mentions

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

The way he dreams about the revival

and renewal of Muslims

and then the way he incorporates

it into his immortal poetry

so that makes every man feel swayed

So Iqbal

ruled over people's mind and heart

It was as if Iqbal

adopted their language

Whatever he used to feel in his heart

he used to put it in his immortal writing

in new words

new expositions

and new terminology

and like an alive bubbling fountain

he also expressed his conception

of knowledge and Deen

So for this reason

no one would disagree with Iqbal

or his poetry

It is a different thing

that if one slightly moves

the curtain of poetry

then in that too you will find

for instance in Javid Nama

at many places

you find such things which

can be strongly critiqued

or our scholars could have done so

but they are expressed in such a style

that it is not so easy to
give fatwa on it

Therefore, his emotional aspects

his poetry

his literature

the manner of his talking

his unique style of expression

and the way he expresses his emotions

That has been more dominant

He has influenced an entire era

and he continues to do so

there is no doubt about it at all

Iqbal's opinions and thoughts

which are about religion

about our history

and about knowledge sciences

They have mostly been ignored

in religious circles

No one is ready to give it much importance

[Hassan] Okay, Ghamidi sir

One last aspect on which I'd like

you to throw some light on

We talk with you about

different personalities

Do you feel that the religious

knowledge we have

in this for past hundred to

one-hundred and fifty years

whatever we get too see within India

such exceptional and great personalities

they're working on many new aspects

which have come to light
in the rest of the stage of Muslim world

there we do not see such prominent things

so is there any special reason

that within India there is such a

progression of these things

[Ghamidi] It is a perhaps
Allah ta'la's will

that is different peoples in

different things

become very prominent and

attain the state of leadership

You can look at the West

How it is leading the world for the past

two hundred years in scientific knowledge

and at this moment it seems that

the entire leadership is in its hands

So India is at a leading position

in religious knowledge

The class of people

leaders from India

Shah Waliullah and those who

were born after him

we do not find their likes

even in the Arab world

all of them are very unique

personalities

their knowledge

their way of seeing things

their influence

you won't find such models very easily

So this is Allah's grace

that great personalities are born

In fact the ancient traditions

that are there

Inside them too

for instance in Deoband

a person like Allama Anwar Shah Kashmiri

with such independent and creative

vision is born

It is a different thing

that the environment he was in

in that environment

a lot of things could not be said

nor be heard

However, you find those things

which are found in his works

So India has given birth to Imam Farahi

Islahi sahib was born there

Shibli was born there

Abul Kalam was born there

Abul Ala Maududi was born there

So great people are born there

In fact I would tell you that

in our society

the religiousness dependent on

the mystical interpretation

and the knowledge dependent on

the legal interpretation

one of its remarkable manifestation has

occurred in Ahmed Raza Khan Barelvi

He is no ordinary man

that is, it is not so

That a large strata of Muslims

whom you call people with

the Barelvi point of view

he has been given the status

of Ala Hazrat or Imam
so he is deserving of it

so in different knowledge and sciences

those extraordinary personalities

which India has given birth to

Perhaps you won't find their likes

in the rest of the world

Whenever I mention this

then I surely must draw

attention to the fact

that it is not my temperament

that the people with whom you disagree

or you think differently from them

that you should hold them in contempt

instead in their knowledge

their background

and keeping their work in front of us

we should appreciate them

All of it is our heritage

and even if they are present

in today's times

then they are our scholars

The world of knowledge

(while remaining above such kind

of prejudices)

is the world of examining things

So for this reason

I deeply respect all of these people

I honor them greatly

and along with that honor and respect

the things with which I disagree

then I disagree with it vehemently

[Hassan] Ghamidi sir you concluded

with a beautiful remark

Our time ends here

Insahallah we'll present

again in your service

Thanks a lot for your time

[Ghamidi] Many thanks!