Air Date: 5/7/21

The Root Presents: It’s Lit!

Ep. 33 - Jasmine Mans Calls Us Closer With “Black Girl, Call Home”

Danielle Welcome to It's Lit, where all things literary live at The Root. I'm Danielle Belton,
The Root's editor in chief here with managing editor of The Glow Up, Maiysha Kai.

Maiysha Hey there.

Danielle Maiysha, today we have a poet on the show.

Maiysha Yes we do.

Danielle The talented writer, Jasmine Mans. Jasmine published her first collection of
poetry in 2012 called Chalk Outlines of Snow Angels and in March of this year published
her second collection of works, Black Girl, Call Home. In addition to being an
accomplished poet in print, Jasmine is also a visual artist, a performance poet, and is the
resident poet at the Newark Public Library.

Maiysha Well, you know, Newark is central to Jasmine's work. And, you know, she comes
from a really strong, poetic tradition. I mean, hello, Amiri Baraka. But, you know, she's
also, I think—is this only the third poet we've had on It's Lit so far?

Danielle She's the third poet!

Maiysha I mean, we've had Claudia Rankine, we've had Nikki Giovanni, you know, and I
have to admit, like poetry isn't necessarily for everybody. Right? Like, it's not necessarily
the thing everybody gravitates toward when they're in the store, you know, or when they're
browsing for new works to read because people don't think of it as a narrative, they can
get lost in. I have to say, I got lost and Black Girl, Call Home. I got lost in these kind of
vignettes that Jasmine creates. It was definitely it just felt like an embrace of a book and
her love for Black women, in particular Black people, you know, is so obvious. So just...It
was just there on every page. And I just really, really enjoyed this book so much. And I
just...It's a gift I would give to people, you know.

Danielle Definitely. And as our listeners will learn from this particular episode, I am not the
biggest fan of poetry, not because poetry is not good. I grew up reading poetry...

Maiysha You're a former poet!

Danielle ...I did spoken word in college because everyone did because it was the 90s.

Maiysha Did you snap? Did you...

Danielle I did it all. Did it all. I rapped. I used to freestyle. But Jasmine's book gave me a
better appreciation for modern poetry because all I have ever done is crap on it. And I'm
just like this. This is actually good, guys. This is, this is a good book.

Maiysha Don't throw away that piece of yourself. Black girl, call home. Call, home.

Danielle I know like, black girl, call home and write some poems. That's what I got out of it.
And with that, I think we should get to the interview.

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Maiysha Let's do it.

Danielle Hey, Jasmine, welcome to It's Lit.

Jasmine Mans Hi, ladies, how are you doing today?

Danielle Oh, amazing, because you're here today. So we're so excited to talk to you about
your new book of poetry called Black Girl, Call Home. But first, we have this icebreaker
that we do here at It's Lit you know, since we're a podcast all about Black books and
writers and journalists and poets, we'd like to begin every episode asking our guests to
name at least one book they've considered life-changing, revolutionary, made you realize
wow I didn't even know a book could be this. What was that book or books for you?

Jasmine Mans I recently read maybe a year ago On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous by
Ocean Vuong and I was floored. I was floored by his experience, by his narrative, by his
way of storytelling. I don't want to give the story away. It is a novel in a series of letters that
he wrote to his mother. And it will pull on heartstrings just like if you migrated or are an
immigrant or like it's a very emotional and thorough and beautifully written story. And then I
think Sula by Toni Morrison always makes you feel some type of way about just structuring
good and evil through the bodies of women of color and those two. And then you always
have to mention The Alchemist. I don't know if everyone mentions that book, but that's
kind of like a like I feel like a lot of people come of age to that book.

Danielle Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Maiysha Those are great choices.

Danielle Yeah, those are excellent choices.

Jasmine Mans Thank you ladies.

Danielle So Jasmine, many of our listeners may know you from the viral moment you had
a few years back with your poem Footnotes for Kanye, which appears and full in Black
Girl, Call Home. But first, let's start with the title of this collection, which reads like a
command. But in reading your poems, it also feels like an invocation or a conjuring calling
Black women home to themselves. Based on the flowcharts you include in the book, it
feels like there's a story. So how did that title originate for you?

Jasmine Mans These pieces were already present and I just had to put them together.
And what's so interesting is that I wrote Black Girl, Call Home as a poem and it was in my
notes for years. And I was just writing it and I thought it was a poem and it was just sitting
around somewhere. It didn't it didn't...it wasn't online. It wasn't anywhere. It's just
something that was in my notes on my computer. And then the same with the cover. I saw
this cover and I saved it. And I was like, this is so...It means so much to me. And it's this is
supposed to be a part of me in some way. I just don't know in which way. And so when I
was given the opportunity to build this thing, I had to put together many options. Right.
Like, I couldn't just say this is it, guys. But this was always like I put together many options
and I was like, but like, this is it. Because I'm a creative I would like draw up the book
cover for them and say like, "but this is where I would like the title and this is how I see my
name." And we went through fonts and so many different things. But it is a conjuring. It is a
request. It is a calling. It's a poem. And that's why we added the comma so that it adds the

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layer of specificity in naming. And...and I'm happy that you saw that because it was
important to me.

Maiysha I love that subtlety. That's really great.

Danielle Yeah, so like I have a confession to make, Maiysha already knows this. Even
though I was raised on Black poets and Black poetry, like I grew up reading Gwendolyn
Brooks and Langston Hughes and Paul Laurence Dunbar and like all these like amazing,
amazing, amazing poets. And I even wrote poetry for a while when I was in college. Like, I
am not a typical poetry reader.

Jasmine Mans Mm hmm.

Danielle In the sense that I probably like after the movie Love Jones came out and then
everybody was a poet for five minutes, was really kind of over the genre. And I got really
jaded, which is sad because poetry is such a beautiful way to express oneself. And so I
just completely fell off of my poetry reading.

Jasmine Mans Come back, come back to us.

Danielle But even still, like in reading your book, I felt really embraced and even
enchanted. And I'm genuinely fascinated by how writers gravitate to their preferred
mediums. How did poetry become your preferred genre of writing?

Jasmine Mans Oh, I was always a fan of rhyme and truly like I was a fan of emotional
text. And I found emotional lyrics like and music and I wanted to be a singer. And I always
wanted to use my voice. I wanted to be a rapper. I wanted to be a singer and a rapper. And
like I always wanted to use my voice on stage. And I think, like throughout my childhood, I
was like finding the best way to use my voice. And then I just kind of shifted into poetry
and I enjoyed rhyming and enjoyed storytelling. And so, like, I remember like stumbling
into the speech and debate room because, like, that was the closest thing to poetry club
we had. And then there is like a space where activism and art collides. Right. And like
you're not just talking about poem, you're talking about like Black poetry and the Black
experience. And so I was stumbling upon different spaces that allowed me to not just
explore rhyme and my own voice, but also how to narrate a Black experience, how to
narrate my own experience. And so I think poetry became my medium because I love
dramatic storytelling and I loved voice. And I just needed to figure out, like, where mine
could exist in this world.

Maiysha Yeah. You know, I...As a fellow lyricist, I totally get that. And I love that answer.
I'm also I got to tell you, I'm fascinated by your hometown of Newark, New Jersey, firstly,
because my partner is also a third-generation Newarker and it's a huge part of his identity
as a person and as an artist, and also because it's like one of those great American cities
that's fostered like talents like, you know, Sarah Vaughan and Queen Latifah, Michael B.
Jordan and Whitney Houston, who you devote several poems to in this collection, as well
as, you know, fellow poets like Amiri Baraka and even Redman. Right. So since Newark
features heavily in this collection. How would you characterize the magic of your
hometown and its influence upon your work?

Jasmine Mans Oh, that's the hardest question I've ever heard in my life.

Maiysha Oh, no!

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Jasmine Mans ...And it's deeply unfair. It was my opportunity to honor Newark. Like it was
my opportunity to I was like, if a Black girl reads this book or if anybody reads this book
and they're from Newark, like they're going to feel seen. And I wanted them to feel as seen
as I felt when I heard Every City, Every Ghetto by Lauryn Hill, where I was like, she is
talking to me. No, that's not for any girl. That's for Newark girls. That's for like girls from like
Chancelor Avenue and like and Bergen, like everybody don't know Bergen. And so that
was, this was my opportunity to give an ode to my city. And there's so many
misconceptions and so much confusion. But like to know somebody right from Newark,
you have a level of pride when like, well, like Amiri Baraka, when he was alive, was still
going to the local bookstore and his wife is still going to the local bookstore and is still
talking to the bookstore owners. And we're still opening coffee shops. And all of the poets
still go to the coffee shop. And at nine-thirty in the morning, you might see ten different
artists standing in front of the coffee shop smoking a blunt and talking about art and or like
when an artist, like, got sick and he didn't have health care, the community gathered
around him and raise the funds in order for him to get the procedures that he needed. And
so we take art seriously because we know that it is narrative for culture, and I think
because of Newark, like it's so weird, right? Like sometimes when you grow up in the hood
or if you're Black growing up in the hood, you try so much to kind of get away and brush
your home off of you. "I'm not that. Don't you don't see me as Newark." But but then you
get to a space of like realizing that it's about like being a master of your craft is about the
pride that you have in your voice. And so I was like, what is the voice of not just me, but
but my interpretation of the Newark voice? And that meant to give it honor. And so I hope
that I did that. I really do.

Maiysha Interestingly enough I hail from another city that I think is often misunderstood,
but also features heavily in Black Girl, Call Home by way of Kanye. I am sitting on the
south side of Chicago as we speak.

Jasmine Mans Mm, word word.

Maiysha And as Danielle noted, you know, for many folks, you came to national attention
with Footnotes for Kanye, the brilliant Footnotes for Kanye. And I'm someone of his
generation who vividly remembers firsthand his pre-fame backpacker days. So I've been
intrigued by your ongoing analysis of him since, as you've noted, he literally left our asses
for a white girl. So, you know, would you agree—and I might be, you know, reaching
here—but that Kanye's trajectory represents a very specific and kind of triggering
psychological trauma that is experienced by a lot of Black women in particular? And has
your analysis of him at all changed in the years since you wrote that poem?

Jasmine Mans There are a lot of different things that I think about with Kanye and my
analysis. And one, I think there's a room right to talk about, like the tragic Black man right.
The narrative—like I've spoken to so many brilliant women about men who become very
successful, who marry women who are white identifying or who can engage in the
privileges of whiteness. And so that's a huge narrative. And like, and like people act like it
does not exist and it is not real. And people want to pivot that conversation against the
conversation of, well, am I not allowed to date lighter-skinned women or a date outside of
my race? But there is such a thing as like this Black man's prize. And where did that come
to be? And I think that that is a conversation that so many people desire to have, and a
conversation that we can have about like looking at: so what does the narrative possess
when you look at so many successful Black men who are connected to all of these women
who are esthetically look the same? They're the standard image of sexy. They're very light.

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They have this long flowing hair. And in some of them may—I'm not going to get into that
so I'll say—some of them may not actually have jobs like they're there to be beautiful wives
and esthetically different from the women they were raised around. So I think there is a
huge racial conversation. Then on the side of Kim Kardashian, there is a big conversation
about appropriation, about taking things that are aesthetically Black and things that are just
inherently not white and using them. And when a woman that light or who is white uses
those things, she is now exotic. When she has cornrows, when she gets a bigger butt,
when she wears certain things that were identified as ghetto or culturally hip hop. Now
she's exotic and she's making millions of dollars off of this image of being exotic, whereas
a Black woman can host the same narrative and be in a totally different and lower tax
bracket. And then on top of this, we have social media. And I think that the Kardashian
presence, right, when we talk about, wealth, monopolies, social media, or marrying Black
men and having just a slew of biracial children, I think it's a big narrative to have. And I
only think that some of us can have it. I realize that like a poem went viral and a poem is in
everybody's households, but everybody is not hosting the same conversation. Everybody
is not honoring that conversation as a piece of art or a piece of a piece of sociology that
we can pull apart. And when things go viral, I have to remind myself of that, that everybody
isn't enjoying this piece the same way.

Danielle Mm-hmm. Yeah. So—.

Jasmine Mans We could, we could come back and have a whole different conversation
about this.

Danielle We could.

Maiysha I was like "hm". That was a great answer. But yes, it was more of an opening of a
conversation, to be honest. I was like, yeah. And we could we could have a whole episode
just on this.

Danielle We could totally have a whole episode, just on that. But you know, since Kanye
already gets plenty of attention...

Maiysha Mm hmm.

Danielle I'd like to bring the focus to some of the other themes you explore in this
collection of poems, which, as noted, aren't solely focused on Black women, but on a
range of experiences that impact the Black community at large, including sexual assault,
respectability politics and the fragility of Black lives, especially Black men's lives, which is
literally on trial as we have this conversation due to the Derek Chauvin trial. What were
you hoping to communicate through this collection?

Jasmine Mans There is a constant poem, I think there's a line that I mentioned twice,
maybe even three times in the collection, and it's, "They don't give our bodies back to
God." And I think that all throughout the book, you see the fragility of the Black body. And
that is what I am trying to show. And I didn't know that that was like a part of my intention
when I started. It wasn't my intention when I started. And as I started building upon this
narrative of a Black Girl, Call Home and home and body and mother-daughter, right? Like
you realize that that fragility becomes a big thing and the fragility of the body around, like
the poems around trans folks and around the children who are left at the border. And there
is like one poem. I saw a photo in the photo still on my phone, but like there was this gate
and there are holes in the gate and a mother like literally there in one of those camps that

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Donald Trump set up for people who illegally entered the country. And a mother is like
poking her breasts out of one of the holes so that she can breastfeed her baby, who's on
the other side, because her baby is in the on the male side and she's on the woman's side.
And that speaks to fragility, or the fragility around a heart that is broken, the fragility around
mothers and daughters, where like mothers have expectations for their daughters, not
because they're these like aggressive mothers or polarizing mothers, but because they
need to see. And they held you for so long. So why would they just free you to a
dangerous world? And so I think the constant theme is the body and the fragility of the
body around these dynamics of love, family, assault. And we're talking about fragility, not
only mine, but the fragility of women that existed like before me when we were talking
about like slave labor. And so I wanted to show people that I was trying to be a student of
my own body. And that was a big part of this for me.

Maiysha Well, yeah, and you also explore queerness in this collection, and I love that you
do it in a really matter of fact way because I think that it's really important to centralize that
like it's, you know, OK, it's not, we don't need to make this a marginalized experience. But I
watched an interview of yours in which you discuss your own experience, I guess, if we
want to call it coming out to your parents. And you noted that in relation to what we call
queerness, it's really straight people, right, who come out in response to the queer people
in their lives. How do you hope your work will contribute to that conversation?

Jasmine Mans I hope that there are more women who speak about their narratives, like
young women who can speak about their heartbreaks. One of the first poems that I like,
that built my career right before Footnotes for Kanye was this piece that I wrote, Derek's
Lover, and it constantly like got views and people were watching it and engaging with it.
And it was like, why do people care about this piece so much? And it was because it was a
Black girl's narrative about getting her heart broken and that not many...There are not
many just narratives around that like we have for heterosexual people. Like you can go on
on Hulu or on Netflix at any moment and find so many evolving or repetitious love stories
about straight folks coming of age in so many different dynamics, but not as many about
queer people. And so I hope that this just allows more girls like myself to exist in the canon
and to feel less alone in their coming out, and they're loving when they're engaging with
the dynamics of so many people who just don't get them.

Danielle So, Jasmine, you know, Black Girl, Call Home has been highly acclaimed since it
debuted in early March and rightfully so. So congratulations.

Jasmine Mans Thank you.

Danielle Have you been at all surprised by the response? And do you know what's next
for you yet?

Jasmine Mans I am overwhelmed and surprised by the response. I am. I am. And I'm in
so much shock that I feel like I'm in a daze and I'm just like, I want to honor what's
happening. And I'm also working. So like we're in an incredible state of just in service to
the book. And every day I'm like grateful that I can be in service to this book. And I am like,
you wouldn't even understand the level of surprised I am. Like, I wanted to make a few
lists. I wanted an award like, like we all want to, like, be acknowledged for the work that we
do. But this level I didn't expect. I know what's coming next. I can't tell you guys what's
coming next. However, I think we all will be very, very surprised.

Danielle Oh, I love a good surprise.

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Jasmine Mans I love a good surprise, too. And I'm getting, I'm just I'm trying to just get
used to the fact that, like, there are things that I just can't see and that that is indeed a
blessing. And so I'm excited for this journey. That Black Girl, Call Home is way bigger than
me, and I'll just allow it to be so.

Danielle Alright. Well, Jasmine, thank you so much for joining me and Maiysha on It's Lit
today.

Jasmine Mans Thank you guys for having me. This was awesome.

Maiysha Thank you so much.

Maiysha The Root Presents It's Lit is produced by myself, Maiysha Kai, and Micaela Heck.
Our sound engineer is Ryan Allen.

Danielle If you like the show and you want to help us out, please give us a rating on Apple
Podcasts. It really helps other people find show. If you have any thoughts or feedback, you
can find me on Twitter at Black Snob on Instagram at Belton Danielle.

Maiysha And you can find me at Maiysha on Twitter. That's M A I Y S H A, and at Maiysha
Kai on Instagram.

Danielle And before we go, usually we like to talk a little bit about what we're currently
reading. But Maiysha, as you know and I know I am leaving.

Maiysha You are leaving.

Danielle This is, this is my last episode of It's Lit!

Maiysha I am hoping—well look, I do think it's going to be a little less lit for it, because I
don't think I can match your enthusiasm at the top of every episode.

Danielle No I think you can do it. I mean, you're a professional, you know, voice trained,
like actor, like you can totally do it.

Maiysha I'm going to try to carry on in your stead, as will the rest of The Root, because we
have loved you so much and loved being under your leadership and the site has grown so
tremendously under your steady hand. So we all thank you so much for everything,
including enabling us to have this amazing podcast.

Danielle I love this little podcast, it was so much fun. So...

Maiysha So much fun.

Danielle To our listeners who don't realize, I've been editor in chief of The Root for the last
five...Oh my God, four years. And I've been in charge of The Root for the last five years
and I've been working at The Root for six years. So it's, it's been a minute. And I was
offered a new role as editor in chief of Huff Post. So I am running away to join the house
Arianna Huffington built and to do this all over again with a whole new team and a whole
new organization, which I'm very excited about. But I wouldn't be able to move on to this
great new role if I hadn't spent all the years I've spent at The Root. It's been an amazing

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ride here. I've greatly enjoyed and appreciated every moment of it. I love Maiysha, I love
the team. And I'm going to, I'm going to miss all you guys. I love Micaela, who helps
produce the show every week with Maiysha. Like, they do all the work, guys.

Maiysha Can't do it without Micaela.

Danielle They do all the work guys like I literally do nothing like I just show up and read.

Maiysha You do something. You do some things and you know, we will miss you so much.
But one of the beautiful things about you being a writer and not just an editor is that we
can have you back. We fully expect that when you publish these books, we will be first on
your list.

Danielle I will! It's Lit will be top of mind.

Maiysha Please. We want the scoops. We want all the things. We are just cheering you
on. We are your biggest cheerleaders here at Huff Post and they are so lucky to have you.
So, you know, Huff Post. Please treat our lady well.

Danielle Yes. And with that, that's it for us this week. Thanks so much for listening. And
we'll see you next week...Or I won't, but Maiysha will.

Maiysha And in the meantime, keep it lit.