23/4/2021 Adding turbo to VR6 3.

2, my experience, QA

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Did you miss your larppaxy Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA
activation email? Jr. « on: November 30, 2019, 02:20:41 AM »
Member
Because i got good help here, i would like to share my personal
Karma: experience of adding turbo to my Porsche Cayenne VR6 3.2 in form of
Forever Login +4/-0 QA's. It's not a how-to guide, just some questions that i had and it was
Login with username, Offline hard to find simple answers.
password and session Posts: 45
length Q: What is VR6?
A: In this context, i talk about 3.2 VR6 engine that has variable intake
and exhaust cam. It's used it Cayenne, Touareg, Phaeton, Golf (R32).
Search They all share exact same engine, there are some differences in ECU
software (torque limiting). Cayenne has different looking intake, but
otherwise it's the same. They all have WIDEBAND front O2 sensors and
Search that is very important.
Advanced Search
Q: Can i just slap random turbo kit from ebay to my VR6 and go?
A: Yes and no. That is how i started. See QA down below about O2
sensors.

Q: What to expect with stock engine?

A: I had 400Nm peak and around 290HP on stock ECU with turbo kit
installed. Torque limiting made it hard to use that power on streets.
(This with 85% ethanol and larger injectors, no modifications to ECU,
larger injectors balanced out the consumption needed by ethanol)

Q: What to expect with stock engine and tuned ECU?

A: Depends, i would say 330HP, 410Nm when stock is 250HP, 310Nm.
(This with ethanol and larger injectors). With compression lowering kit,
some people say, 400HP is safe limit.

Q: What to do before anything?

A: Make sure your engine and sensors are in good working order. Fuel
trims should be good and no codes stored. Any sensor failure will
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23/4/2021 Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

damage your engine when on boost.

Q: What is BARE MINIMUM to install turbo and actually be able to drive

it?
A: Install random VW turbo kit, install wideband o2 sensors for bank 1
and 2 to exhaust manifold. Connect all sensors like they are supposed
to be, including MAF. You car will now have around 20% more torque
and power, but is torque limited and drives badly. Move brake booster
hose and PCV hose to somewhere else, they can't stay on intake
manifold anymore because there is boost in there now.

Q: So, i can use turbo with stock ECU?

A: Yes. ECU's are torque limited, so it will max out at +20%. It's
drivable.

Q: Why my throttle response is jumpy and i get random stalls and

power peaks?
A: There are many reasons, but you should disable variable intake
system. It has two positions, torque and power. With turbo installed, it
only causes issues. Simpy disconnect it mechanically.

Q: How much boost? Is compression reduction kit needed?

A: I'm running 0.65bar with stock compression ratio. However, i'm
using 50% ethanol and still have torque limiting on my ECU (on
purpose, i made KFMIRL values max out at 150 for safety)

Q: How much boost is safe on stock compression ratio and 'normal'

gasoline?
A: I can only tell you, your engine will crack a piston at 0.65bar. That is
what happened to me when running with failed sensor and there was
no torque limiting. 0.5bar should be safe still? (UPDATE: I had piston
failure, but it's very much possible that it was not caused by havin too
much boost)

Q: MAF? Do i need to change that?

A: No, maybe if you are looking maximum power on high rpm.

Q: Why you keep talking about ethanol?

A: It's available here for a cheap price but most importanly, it reduces
engine compression rate. You can give it more boost without need for
compression lowering kit. Or to but it other way, it's more safe to boost
it when using ethanol. If you can't use it, i would go for 0.5bar max.

Q: Can i just fit my wideband O2 sensors to exhaust pipe after turbo?

A: No you can't. Your car will not run at all. Exhaust gasses cant be
mixed before they go to O2 sensors. You also can't run only single O2
sensor or anything else like that. You simply need to fit them properly
so that sensor 1 gets exhaust from engine bank 1 and sensor 2 get
exhaust from bank 2. Anything else, and your engine will pop.

Q: Rear O2 sensors? What about them?

A: They need to be electrically connected. You can fit them to exhaust
on same pipe. They will give engine code every now and then without
catalytic converters. If you leave them disconnected, front O2 sensors
wont work AT ALL.

Q: Injectors?
A: There are differences between engines, some have fuel pressure set
to 4bar, some cars to 3bars. Do your calculations. Anyway, i got around
30% larger injectors from Audi TT 1.8. They are almost plug&play,
connector is bit different, no soldering required or any modifications.
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23/4/2021 Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

(022 906 031 J VW/PORSCHE3.2 -> 0 280 157 012, 06A 906 031 J
AUDI TT 1.8 QUATTRO (AMU) -> 0 280 155 892)

Q: Where can i find ECU tune for turbo installation?

A: I don't think you can, most people i asked and offered money just
said it's stupid and can't be done and blablaa... this is not on this
forum, but when i asked "tune shops" here locally.

Q: Can i tune my ECU?

A: Yes. It's Bosch ME7.1.1 unit. Very common, used everywhere.

Q: What are keywords to ECU tuning?

A: Kess v2, WinOls Demo, ProTuner, ME7Sum.exe, Bosch Me7.3
documentation for Alfa romeo, S4 Wiki, this forum. That is all you need.

Q: What modifications to make for ECU to make car run well enough for
daily driving?
A: To keep it simple, all you need to do, is make torque (limiting) curve
match your new engine. Because wideband o2 sensors are used, you
don't really have to worry about fueling at all. With narrowband O2
sensors i would say that turning NA engine to FI is close to impossible
and dangerous.

Q: What exact modification to make for your ECU to get past torque
limits?
A: Well, find 100% load caps, edit KFMIRL to suit your car. It takes
forever to make it good, but simply multiplying last two rows and
smoothing it out a little should make it "ok". After that you start
learning and tweaking more, there are tens of maps that you can (and
need to) modify.

Q: They talk about MAF scaling, why?

A: Basically you fake that there is less air coming to engine, and that
way you can trick ECU to thing that there is less load and torque. It's
method to get past torque limits that are programmed to ECU. I would
not recommend this because internal load values control other things
too (like engine timing). (when swapping different MAF scaling is
needed too)

... ok this is getting long. These are just what my experience is. There
can be errors, but i hope this helps out someone.

Highlights from below :

Q: I have DSG transmission, does it matter?

A: Yes, DSG transmission have their own torque limiting and basically
that means you need to tune transmission ECU too.

Q: Can i use any ME7.1.1 ECU? Like, get a spare and test with that?
A: Yes and no, ME7.1.1 ECUs use different hardware and they generally
are not compatible unless it's exact same hardware number.

Q: Do i need to modify ignition timing tables?

A: Personally i didn't touch them and i trusted knock sensors to keep
me safe. However, people on this forum keep telling that they
absolutely need to be modified. For optimal performance they
absolutely need to be modified, but for safety, i'm not sure. You decide
if you trust your knock sensors

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« Last Edit: December 01, 2019,

01:34:59 AM by larppaxyz » Logged

Blazius Re: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Hero « Reply #1 on: November 30, 2019, 04:40:22 AM »
Member
Nice writeup, few things I'd add.

Karma: You can use checkvalves on PCV and brakebooster so that they only
+50/-29
open when engine is vacuum, this way you can keep it connected to
Offline
manifold.
Posts:
909 The variable geometry manifold has to be completely disabled, even if
you unplug the connector the module is activated and there are
multiple load changing variables that will reflect on your load.

You can tune a fi conversion with nbo2 too but you have to watch knock
limit and sensor voltage during boost but highly recommended to fit
external gauge, a bosch lsu sensor is cheap and a DIY 14.7 controller or
etc too.

You NEED to fit a DV , else you'll stall everytime you let off low load /
high rpm and on gear -> neutral switch.

If you move / change the torque limiters and/or you changed your
torque control/calculating system, you might it hit a level 2 intervention
cap, this comes from the "UM" modules. There are maps for torque
allowed / pedal position % etc., might have to rescale this too to avoid
the engine control limit 2 dtc during changing weather or conditions
where your current torque exceeds the max allowed.

You can disable the rear o2 too.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2019,
04:41:54 AM by Blazius » Logged

larppaxy Re: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Jr. « Reply #2 on: November 30, 2019, 05:55:07 AM »
Member
Quote from: Blazius on November 30, 2019, 04:40:22 AM
Karma:
+4/-0 The variable geometry manifold has to be completely disabled, even if you
Offline unplug the connector the module is activated and there are multiple load
changing variables that will reflect on your load.
Posts: 45

Yes, when tuning, identical values can be used for both positions
(power/torque) if variable geometry manifold is mechanically disabled.
It's bit more advanced topic, so i left it out. It's however important
thing to know when tuning, so thank you for mentioning it.

Logged

fluke9 Re: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Full « Reply #3 on: November 30, 2019, 06:21:36 AM »
Member
Quote from: larppaxyz on November 30, 2019, 02:20:41 AM
Karma:
+24/-1

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23/4/2021 Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Offline Q: How much boost is safe on stock compression ratio and 'normal' gasoline?
A: I can only tell you, your engine will crack a piston at 0.65bar. That is what
Posts:
113 happened to me when running with failed sensor and there was no torque
limiting. 0.5bar should be safe still?

A cracked piston is more a sign of some super heavy knocking going

on, no engine will last for long under that conditions.
Some R32 here run around 0.6 bar without Ethanol, i dont know the
compression ratio for the VR6 but on my Alfa V6 i can run 0.65 with
10:1.
Although most of them are supercharged so the boost comes on way
smoother and possibly cooler that with a turbo setup.
Logged

larppaxy Re: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Jr. « Reply #4 on: November 30, 2019, 06:35:27 AM »
Member
Quote from: fluke9 on November 30, 2019, 06:21:36 AM
Karma:
+4/-0 A cracked piston is more a sign of some super heavy knocking going on, no
Offline engine will last for long under that conditions.
Some R32 here run around 0.6 bar without Ethanol, i dont know the
Posts: 45 compression ratio for the VR6 but on my Alfa V6 i can run 0.65 with 10:1.
Although most of them are supercharged so the boost comes on way
smoother and possibly cooler that with a turbo setup.

Whatever causes it, generally failure mode for VR6 engines seems to be
piston cracking between oil and compression ring. There is no damage
on top or any burning marks. I personally experienced this. I was on
normal gasoline, redlined, without any torque limiting, and second
wideband o2 sensor was not working correctly (slow to respond) and
probably on around 0.7bar boost so i really asked for it..

Logged

IamwhoI Re: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Hero « Reply #5 on: November 30, 2019, 06:40:54 AM »
Member
0.65 bar and a cracked piston is knock, nothing else. Probably because
of running stock N/A ignition timing while blowing 0.65 bar at it. Duh,
Karma: that's the most retarded thing one could do. If you had run the
+31/-56
appropriate amount of timing, you wouldn't have cracked a piston at
Offline
0.65 bar even with 98RON/93 AKI init.
Posts: Logged
862
I have no logs because I have a boost gauge (makes things easier)

Marty Re: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Hero « Reply #6 on: November 30, 2019, 06:43:27 AM »
Member
i ran 1 bar stock compression on my 12v with a 60% / 40% e mix.
Occasionally hit 1.3 bar with full e with no knock . props to op for
Karma: documenting their findings
+187/-260
Offline Logged

Posts: Quote from: nyet on July 19, 2016, 11:30:12 PM

1786
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23/4/2021 Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

I CAN BARELY HEAR YOU

larppaxy Re: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Jr. « Reply #7 on: November 30, 2019, 07:34:20 AM »
Member
Quote from: IamwhoIam on November 30, 2019, 06:40:54 AM
Karma:
+4/-0 0.65 bar and a cracked piston is knock, nothing else. Probably because of
Offline running stock N/A ignition timing while blowing 0.65 bar at it. Duh, that's the
most retarded thing one could do. If you had run the appropriate amount of
Posts: 45 timing, you wouldn't have cracked a piston at 0.65 bar even with 98RON/93
AKI init.

Ok, since you seem to know enough of this to tell what is retarded,
maybe you can tell us what kind of ignition maps we should be using
when going past >100% cylinder fill and if cam overlapping has
anything to do with it? Keep it simple, maybe we could add your answer
to QA section.

Logged

fluke9 Re: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Full « Reply #8 on: November 30, 2019, 07:58:18 AM »
Member
Quote from: larppaxyz on November 30, 2019, 07:34:20 AM
Karma:
+24/-1 Ok, since you seem to know enough of this to tell what is retarded, maybe
Offline you can tell us what kind of ignition maps we should be using when going
past >100% cylinder fill and if cam overlapping has anything to do with it?
Posts: Keep it simple, maybe we could add your answer to QA section.
113
You need to retard the ignition table too, otherwise it is retarded to run
it this way. ;-)
Simple hacks like making the ECU see less load will do this, i used to
add a diode on the MAF with a 0.5v forward voltage on my GTV which
removed some timing,
but i ran fuel on a megasquirt.

Expand igniton table to cover your new load cap and retard there.
Best way would be live on a dyno, watch your knock and slowly find the
spot where it sees slight knock, retard with a safety margin then.

Engines differ quite a bit in how much advance they can handle or not
before knocking, also fuel plays in a lot and.
IAT is also a big factor, decent intercooling will help you a lot to run
more advance.

Logged

Blazius Re: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Hero « Reply #9 on: November 30, 2019, 09:07:46 AM »
Member
Quote from: fluke9 on November 30, 2019, 07:58:18 AM

Karma: You need to retard the ignition table too, otherwise it is retarded to run it this
+50/-29 way. ;-)
Offline Simple hacks like making the ECU see less load will do this, i used to add a
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23/4/2021 Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

diode on the MAF with a 0.5v forward voltage on my GTV which removed
Posts: some timing,
909 but i ran fuel on a megasquirt.

Expand igniton table to cover your new load cap and retard there.
Best way would be live on a dyno, watch your knock and slowly find the spot
where it sees slight knock, retard with a safety margin then.

Engines differ quite a bit in how much advance they can handle or not before
knocking, also fuel plays in a lot and.
IAT is also a big factor, decent intercooling will help you a lot to run more
advance.

Exactly extend KFZW load tables(and the related maps that use the
axis) and redo the timing tables with common sense, I'd say aim for 0
cf maybe a max of 3 avg, but even that personally I wouldnt like on
such high compression.
Logged

larppaxy Re: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Jr. « Reply #10 on: November 30, 2019, 09:29:55 AM »
Member
Quote from: Blazius on November 30, 2019, 09:07:46 AM
Karma:
+4/-0 Exactly extend KFZW load tables(and the related maps that use the axis) and
Offline redo the timing tables with common sense, I'd say aim for 0 cf maybe a max
of 3 avg, but even that personally I wouldnt like on such high compression.
Posts: 45

Actually i have already extended few axises in such way that second
last row goes to 100 and last row jumps to 150. Currently values i'm
using at 150 are (basically) identical to 100 row. Primary ignition A and
B is one of those maps where modification is done. I haven't had time
to check if i have found all places where axises are used, but it should
not matter too much. Anyway, for example last row at max load and
5000 rpm is now 12.72 (for example). You mean this should be retared
close to zero? That sounds like huge change, only values close to zero
are below 3000 rpm. Picture added for reference.

... i quess we are slowly drifting from "how to get bare minimum to
work" to "how to tune your turbo vr6", but i quess it's ok. Lets just stay
on VR6 and known facts so it's still helpful. I also would like to add,
that in this context, by load i mean cylinder fill percentage.

« Last Edit: November 30, 2019,

09:32:16 AM by larppaxyz » Logged

IamwhoI Re: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Hero « Reply #11 on: November 30, 2019, 09:46:14 AM »
Member
Quote from: larppaxyz on November 30, 2019, 07:34:20 AM

Karma: Ok, since you seem to know enough of this to tell what is retarded, maybe
+31/-56 you can tell us what kind of ignition maps we should be using when going
Offline

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23/4/2021 Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA
Posts: past >100% cylinder fill and if cam overlapping has anything to do with it?
862 Keep it simple, maybe we could add your answer to QA section.

First off you extend the range of your load axises on KFZW, then you
significantly drop the values in there starting with 100% load, you
might have to do some rescaling and move columns/rows around, then
you start with as little timing as possible and you go from there. Ideally
on a dyno too, so you can see where MBT is at.
Logged

I have no logs because I have a boost gauge (makes things easier)

fluke9 Re: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Full « Reply #12 on: November 30, 2019, 10:01:45 AM »
Member
You should extend the whole axis, not just one row,
Karma: with your map you end up in the same row betwenn 100 and 150%
+24/-1 load so your 0.0 to 0.5 bar boost has the same iginition angle.
Offline

Posts:
113

Logged

larppaxy Re: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Jr. « Reply #13 on: November 30, 2019, 10:05:40 AM »
Member
Quote from: fluke9 on November 30, 2019, 10:01:45 AM
Karma:
+4/-0 You should extend the whole axis, not just one row,
Offline with your map you end up in the same row betwenn 100 and 150% load so
your 0.0 to 0.5 bar boost has the same iginition angle.
Posts: 45

Sure about that? My understanding is that it should interpolate between

two rows instead of using one or the other?

EDIT: I moved original "last row" one row up. Then i modified axis so
that last row is 150 and one before that is 100, like you see in picture.
Note that in picture, 100 and 150 row are intentionally same as i
haven't modified them. If ECU now looks for row let's say 120, it will
fetch rows 100 and 150 and interpolate between values in those. So in
theory, whole map could work with just two rows.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019,
10:11:14 AM by larppaxyz » Logged

fluke9 Re: Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

Full « Reply #14 on: November 30, 2019, 10:10:00 AM »
Member
Quote from: larppaxyz on November 30, 2019, 09:29:55 AM
Karma:
+24/-1 You mean this should be retared close to zero? That sounds like huge change,
Offline only values close to zero are below 3000 rpm. Picture added for reference.

Posts:
113
You need to learn a bit about the basics first.
The faster the engine runs the more advance it needs, as you can see
in the table.

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23/4/2021 Adding turbo to VR6 3.2, my experience, QA

This is because after igniting the mixture it takes some time for the
flamefront to travel to the piston.
The faster the engine is turning the earlier the spark must be ignited for
the explosion to happen right AFTER turningpoint of the piston on OT.

Knock is if the pistion still travels up when the explosion happens,

therefore the rotational energy of the engine and power of the other
pistons made before
will push the piston into the explosion.
Thats what breaks your piston.
Logged

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