2012-04-29 Ehrman's Dubious Replies (Round Two) (Richardcarrier - Info) (1151)

Ehrman’s Dubious Replies (Round Two)
BY R ICH AR D CAR R IER / ON APRIL 29, 2012 / 114 COMMENTS
As promised Friday, here I shall reply to Ehrman’s longest reply to me to date (in Fuller Reply to Richard Carrier,
mostly responding to my critique of his book). I won’t rehash the points I already addressed in my previous response
(see Round One). Here I’ll just cut to the chase:
Was Pilate a Procurator?

Ehrman finally does what he should have done originally (take note of this trend: it confirms the entire point of my original
critique), and asks an expert. But what he didn’t do was read the scholarship I pointed him to (my article, which references
the most definitive literature on the point: in fact it is rather important to this whole debate and my subsequent remarks here
that we read my paper’s section on what a procurator was in the time of Jesus).
The view that Claudius changed the title of Judaean governors from prefect to procurator has long since been refuted (most
conclusively by the work of Fergus Millar; contrary to what Ehrman’s quotation might seem to suggest, the PIR his
colleague translates the Latin of on this point is a modern source, not an ancient one, and thus represents an outdated
scholarly assumption and not what anyone in antiquity actually said). For example, Herod the Great was appointed
procurator of Syria, before Claudius was even born, and even Cicero attests the practice of prefects being simultaneously
appointed procurators. The surviving evidence extensively confirms no province or district was ever governed by a
procurator who was not also a prefect, at least to the end of the second century (as Millar and others document).
In the paper I linked to above I extensively document all of this, including the sources and scholarship establishing that (a)
many prefects were simultaneously also procurators, well before Claudius, and that this was especially the case for major
provincial prefects (as we know most conclusively for the prefect of Egypt, neighboring Judea, and I also list evidence the
same was true of Pilate), and that (b) this has been known to modern specialists in Roman imperial administration for at
least forty years.
In fact, procurator is not a government office, but a private one (it means business agent), and prefects were often
simultaneously appointed imperial procurators so they could handle the private affairs of the emperor using the legal
apparatus of state power (precisely through holding the prefecture). I discuss this at length, and reference the scholarship on
it, in the article that I summarize on my blog (and link to above), to which I directed readers in my critical review of
Ehrman. I would ask that Ehrman have his informant read that piece (the specific link I provide above; he only need read
the relevant section of the academic article, which that link will take him to directly), and then relay what they say in reply.
Notice what happens.
Did Ehrman Overlook Tacitus

Scholarship?
When discussing his failure to mention that the mythicists had some scholarly support for their questioning of the passage on
Christ in Tacitus, Ehrman misrepresents my argument in various ways. For example, he says:
“
Carrier says this is “crap,” “sloppy work,” and “irresponsible,” and indicates that if I had simply
checked into the matter, I would see that I’m completely wrong.
First, I did not say he was completely wrong. In fact I said very much the opposite. Here is what I actually wrote (emphasis
now added):
“
That the overall consensus of scholarship, myself included, sides with Ehrman on the conclusion is true
(I am sure the passage is authentic and has not been relevantly altered), but that does not change the fact
that readers are being seriously misled by Ehrman’s characterization of the matter. For him to claim
that mythicists “just made this up” because it was convenient for them is false. But more alarming to me
is the fact that this demonstrates that he didn’t even check. And again, if he didn’t check this, what else
didn’t he check? This kind of sloppy work, the failure to check his facts, to do any basic research we
should expect of a scholar, and consequently to misrepresent his opponents and their position, and
misinform the public about the debate, is the same kind of crap we get from the bad mythicists.
Notice. I did not say he was completely wrong, but that he was mostly right, and was onlymisleading readers by giving
the impression that mythicists were on their own here. I also did not mean that this particular incident makes the book crap.
To the contrary, if it were only a few cases like this I would barely make an issue of it. Rather, as you can see from the
quote above I was saying this kind of thing, repeated throughout the book, is the same crap Ehrman himself calls out
mythicists for. In other words, I am saying it is the number of cases like this that made his work sloppy. Not just this
instance. Because just one instance wouldn’t (nor even two).
I ended every section of my review with similar remarks, explaining why I was presenting each example as one instance of
a pervading trend. In fact earlier on I said:
“
[O]ne or two mistakes like this would be excusable. We all make them. And we can’t all know everything.
But my point is that this is an example of a pervasive number of similar errors throughout the book…
Ehrman now makes it seem like I was saying just this one Tacitus oversight makes his work “sloppy” and the same “crap”
he convicts the bad mythicists of (and yet he, too, made his point about them by just selecting a few examples, just as I
did). That was not my point at all. My point was the same as his: we find so many things like this, that we must dismiss their
work as unreliable. Ehrman mischaracterizes my argument in order to avoid it, turning it instead into just a few nitpicks,
which if that were an acceptable defense, he would have to accept it from the mythicists he dismisses, too.
On the charge of irresponsibility, this is what I actually said (emphases now added):
“
This is important, because part of Ehrman’s argument is that mythicists are defying all established
scholarship in suggesting this is an interpolation, so the fact that there is a lot of established
scholarship supporting them undermines Ehrman’s argument and makes him look irresponsible.
In other words, his argument depends on there being no scholarly basis for the mythicists’ doubt of the passage. This is why
his new defense doesn’t address my point. Ehrman says now, “my point is that I was not trying to make a statement about
the history of Tacitus scholarship; I was stating what scholars today think.” This I would credit as a fair statement
(assuming, again, that he checked), but it’s not what he says in the book (nor does he now mention whether Benario’s
subsequent surveys document anyone rebutting the scholarship he summarized on this passage before; just because the
topic didn’t come up in later years doesn’t mean it has been universally rejected, or even rebutted, a fallacious kind of
inference that typifies Ehrman’s continual shortcomings in logic). In fact, if all Ehrman meant were that no current Tacitus
expert doubts the passage, then his book’s argument doesn’t hold up. He would have to change that argument to make this
new premise work.
It must also be noted that Ehrman still doesn’t admit that he tars the competence of mythicists when he tells his readers
(and regardless of what he meant, what his readers will take him to mean is the issue: because it is that that I have
to constantly correct and therefore makes the book bad) that no competent expert would ever agree with them and that
they are the only ones coming up with these ideas. But if serious qualified experts had the same notions, that seriously alters
the entire impression of the matter. It’s not a crazy idea coming out of left field anymore. It’s just wrong. And the difference
is huge. This should be particularly clear to someone who acts like such criticisms are personal attacks and unfair. Ehrman
made his opponents look crazier and less competent than they are. That is much more of an unfair personal attack than
what Ehrman is putting up with from me (since unlike him, I am accurately representing what he said). That he doesn’t even
see this plank in his own eye while complaining about the splinter in ours is ironic coming from an expert on Jesus.
But more importantly, this change in the point (from “no scholar says” to “no scholar today says”) also significantly changes
how Ehrman must argue: now he can’t say the mythicists are making this up and have no scholarly support, but he must
argue instead that though there are published scholarly arguments for their conclusion, they have been rejected, which
requires him to show that they have been (that no one has since published on it, pro or con, does not mean the issue is dead
or that no living scholar is at least agnostic on the issue), or else that they have been because of x, y, and z (whatever the
arguments are that lead scholars not to be convinced by the previous work challenging the passage; which would require
Ehrman to actually find out what those are–in other words, it would require him to do his job).
It is for these reasons that this book sucks. Ehrman has to make excuses for repeatedly saying misleading things, and for
not having checked to confirm the things he claims. I am not convinced Ehrman even knows why most scholars are
convinced the Tacitus passage is authentic. But I wouldn’t care about that. All he had to say was that few scholars accept
the notion that the passage is inauthentic in any way. That would be a fair enough point. Instead he gave the impression that
no expert would ever think that, that only mythicists came up with it. And again, do not mistake this for a one-off goof. This
is typical of how Ehrman treats the mythicists; I only gave representative examples of each kind of error. And that was my
review’s central point.
Of course, a thorough investigation would require more, such as actually examining the reasons for and against accepting
the passage and arriving at a conclusion therefrom. Ehrman might have legitimately avoided that labor by saying what I
would say (and do say), that I welcome anyone making that case in a new peer reviewed article, but until then I have to
side with the broadest contemporary consensus of experts where I myself see no good reason to reject it. This would at
least be honest. Instead he made it look like mythicists have no support from published scholarship and are the only ones
thinking these things. And it’s that that is the problem.
Are There Dying and Rising Gods?

Ehrman argues:
“
It is true that Osiris “comes back” to earth to work with his son Horus … Literally, he came “from
Hades.” But this is not a resurrection of his body. His body is still dead. He himself is down in Hades, and
can come back up to make an appearance on earth on occasion. This is not like Jesus coming back from
the dead, in his body; it is like Samuel in the story of the Witch of Endor, where King Saul brings his
shade back to the world of the living temporarily (1 Samuel 28). How do we know Osiris is not raised
physically? His body is still a corpse, in a tomb.
Of course the same is most likely true of Jesus (as I and several scholars have argued: see myEmpty Tomb FAQ; even
conservative scholar N.T. Wright has suggested the possibility), and obviously this is in fact how Jesus was originally
believed to have appeared (in visions, not a walking reanimated corpse), so there is no clear difference from the Osiris case
even as Ehrman describes it.
But even granting the difference, this is precisely the kind of distinction that isn’t relevant to the point: Osiris is a dead god
who still “lives again” and visits and converses with the living. Like all the gods that do this, they do it in their divine
resurrection bodies, which have replaced their flesh and blood corpses. This is explicitly stated in the sources for many
gods, such as Hercules (see Empty Tomb, p. 137); and many Jews believed the same thing about their own resurrection
(and Paul appears to say exactly that in 1 Cor. 15:35-49, declaring that the body that dies is not the body that rises;
Josephus describes a similar body-exchange theory as apparently a common view of resurrection among Jews, and we
have many examples of both Jews and Christians advocating it: see Empty Tomb, pp. 109-13, 136-37). This is not like
the “witch of endor,” precisely because these are gods, and gods have divine bodies. That’s what makes them gods (and
not just impotent spirits). The Jewish view of resurrection was essentially the same view, only extended to humans, who
would all become like gods. (A view that actually came from the Zoroastrians, and thus is not uniquely Jewish: see Not the
Impossible Faith, chapter 3.)
Insofar as even the first Christians, or certainly later ones, believed Jesus rose from the dead inthe same body that died,
that would be an element of syncretism with the Jewish belief in corpse reanimation (held by many but not all Jews), or even
an adaptation of other pagan views of gods that experience the same kind of resurrection (most clearly, Zalmoxis and
Inanna, and perhaps Inanna’s consort Tammuz, i.e. Adonis, since as her consort in the same myth, his celebrated
resurrection is not likely to have substantially differed from hers, we just don’t have the portion of the text that describes it,
only external references to it being part of the same cult’s myth). Even if the later Christian idea did not come from these
pagan same-body resurrection myths, a pagan body-exchange resurrection (returning to earth after their deaths in an
immortal glorious resurrection body, as Romulus does, for example) combined with a literalist Jewish resurrection still gets
you the version of dying-and-rising god that we meet with, for example, in the Gospel of John. But that’s still just a variant
of the same mytheme: a god who dies and is then celebrated as having risen again, in a more glorious body than they once
had. That’s why Osiris is said to have returned to life and been recreated, the exact terms for resurrection, as even
Ehrman admits Plutarch freely uses to describe what happened to him.
[Update: It should also be noted that Ehrman isn’t telling the truth about Osiris or Plutarch. The physical resurrection of
Osiris’s corpse is explicitly described in Egyptian pre-Christian pyramid inscriptions (I quote them, and cite other pre-
Christian texts on other such gods as well, in OHJ, pp. 168-73). And Plutarch says the belief that Osiris went to Hades
was false. And he goes on to explain the truth was his death and resurrection occurs in outer space, and never involves a
visit to Hades, and definitely involved coming back to life in a new superior body, in which he ascends to a higher realm to
rule from above, just like would be said of Jesus. And Plutarch says this death and resurrection concept was told for many
other gods of his day.]
On all of this take note: Ehrman says his views are the standard in the field, but in defense of the claim he still only names
one advocate (Smith). In the link above, in support of my view, I name eight. And in my chapter on resurrection bodies in
The Empty Tomb I cite more, including abundant primary evidence. So you decide who to follow on this point.
Did Ehrman Fail to Mention that Some

Sources Attest a Christian Belief That
Jesus Died a Century Before Pilate?
Yes, he did. Ehrman doesn’t deny this. He simply claims that when he said “the view of all of our sources that deal with the
matter at all” (on p. 251) he didn’t mean all of our sources that deal with the matter at all. (See a trend here?) Even if we
believe Ehrman “knew” that all those sources existed and date Jesus as they do, and he just chose not to mention them
(even though they are directly pertinent to the hypothesis Wells was arguing), because he was “only” referring to the
sources he had previously enumerated (even though the Talmudic passages were one of those sources–see pp. 66-68–so
his excuse doesn’t even hold up on his own internal logic), even granting all that (which I find hard to do), he still mislead his
readers into thinking no such sources exist, and that Wells was just pulling this idea right out of nowhere. Which kind of
thing happens repeatedly throughout his book. And that still makes his book an unreliable failure.
Ehrman also (again) deploys an argument in his reply that should have been in the book: that he discounts those sources on
this point because they are late; which is in itself a fallacy, since late sources can preserve early tradition, and therefore you
have to make an argument for why this is not occurring in this case. Indeed, that this was the belief of what appears to be
(a) a pre-Pauline sect of Christianity (the Nazoreans still being Torah observant and having a name similar to what
Christians were sometimes called in Paul’s time, if we are to trust Acts 24:5) and (b) the only sect of Christianity apparently
known to the Babylonian Jews, argues against this being some recent novelty. Even the late existence of such a tradition is
hard to explain on Ehrman’s theory of Jesus’ historicity (how could such a tradition have arisen?), and thus requires
explanation, it can’t just be ignored. Ehrman would prefer to ignore it. Possibly he would even prefer you not to know of it.
Did Ehrman Tell Everyone the Romans

Kept No Records That Would Have Been
Relevant to Studying Jesus?
Yes. Once again, he even attempts to stand by this one, although contradicting himself…at one point saying he meant only
that we shouldn’t expect such records to survive (precisely what I said he should have said in the book, but didn’t), and at
another point saying that he does indeed deny “any indication that there ever were Roman records of anything” in Palestine.
But his arguments here are an embarrassment of fallacies.
Ehrman now says that (at least in Egypt) such records existed and were kept (something he definitely does not tell his
readers in his book), but “most of these are not in fact records of Roman officials, but made by indigenous Egyptian writers
/ scribes.” This is twice fallacious (even setting aside his strange assumption that “indigenous Egyptians” could not be
Roman officials or in their employ): first, “most” is not “all” (so his point is moot…formally, we call this a non sequitur);
second, what he doesn’t tell you is that even the private records are frequently the personal copies of government records
(e.g. the tax receipts I once translated would be a private citizen’s copy of the very same receipt that would enter the
government archives). Thus, the fact that we have only the copies, albeit made under official circumstances, often at the
same time as the originals, is again moot to the point as to whether the government kept such records. Indeed, that private
citizens sought and kept copies of state records precisely proves my point that Christians could have done this, too…had
they wanted to, which requires explaining why they didn’t.
Ehrman then says he only meant that Romans kept no such records in Palestine. He doesn’t actually provide any evidence
to back this claim, of course, and it’s obviously absurd, the kind of implausible armchair assertion I expect from Christian
apologists. Obviously Romans kept the same records in every province that they kept in any.
There might not have been a record of Jesus’ birth at the time of his birth (that would depend on where he was really born
and whether, instead, any state or local Jewish administration kept such records, e.g. Josephus implies having records of his
own ancestry), but if he or his family ever paid Roman taxes, there would be records of that, and if his family was ever the
subject of any Roman census at any time while Jesus was alive, there would be a record of that, and along with it a record
of his birth, age, and family relations (Tertullian claimed such records existed, although he is unlikely to have really
checked). And certainly, there would have been a record of Jesus’ trial, of Pilate’s ruling, of the execution, and any
recorded witness affidavits. There would also be ancillary records, e.g., other trial records or official correspondence (akin
to the letter of Claudius Lysias) discussing Christians and their tussles with the Jews or attempts to get them prosecuted in
Roman courts, which would certainly have to mention the historical Jesus and information about him.
All we can say is what I myself said, that (as Ehrman correctly phrases it now, but not in his book) we have no reason to
expect such records to survive. Although that requires admitting that no early Christians ever had any interest in preserving
or using them.
In short, everything I said originally remains the case. Ehrman has no actual rebuttal.
Did Ehrman Libel Doherty?

Yes. Ehrman tries to completely reinterpret what he said on this point, but in this case the direct quotation of Ehrman I
provided in my review conclusively rules out his entire attempt to claim to have said something else, so no further reply is
needed from me. Just compare my quotation of Ehrman, with what Ehrman now wants you to think that meant, and no
reasonable person will conclude with Ehrman on this one: Ehrman wrote “he fails to point out that not a single one of these
scholars agrees with his overarching thesis” and now claims that that sentence meant “I am not denying that Doherty
sometimes acknowledges that scholars disagree with him.” You do the math on that.
Ehrman’s comment about Doherty’s use of Morna Hooker in particular has already been rebutted by Godfrey and
Doherty, and I would add that reading what Doherty actually wrote in context, it’s obvious he in no way implied Hooker
said Jesus became flesh in outer space; he quotes her on a different point altogether (that Jesus became what we are so that
we may share in what he now is; a statement, by the way, I doubt Ehrman has any disagreement with). But even despite
that, picking isolated quotations like this is moot anyway, because Ehrman stated a blanket generalization that Doherty
never says something that in fact he frequently says–even explicitly about the whole issue of whether any scholar he cites
agrees with his overall thesis (his introduction is quite clear about this, and covers all cases). Ehrman simply lies about this–
or, again, is such a godawful writer he accidentally said the exact opposite of what he meant to say, and thus completely
misrepresents Doherty and misinforms the reader.
Did Ehrman Screw Up His Citation of

Pliny?
Here Ehrman agrees with everything I said and insists it was just a typo and he knew everything I said already (that he was
referring to two completely separate letters, and he should in each case have said “a” letter in “book” 10 that contains all of
Pliny’s Trajan correspondence and not have called both letters “letter” 10, and that neither letter connects the two contexts,
only modern scholars do). But he still failed to say any of this to his readers (thus even his excuse does not rescue the book
from the charge of misinforming the public and therefore being unreliable).
More importantly, I do not believe he’s telling the truth here. Because the wording in the book does not look even remotely
like he knew that two different letters were being discussed, or that their connection was a scholarly inference and not
something directly revealed in the context of “the letter” he twice references. I’ll just quote the relevant section in full
[skipping only incidental material] and leave this one for you to decide (emphasis added):
“
…Pliny is best known for a series of letters that he wrote later in life to the Roman emperor, Trajan,
seeking advice for governing his province. In particular, letter number 10 from the year 112 CE is
important, as it is the one place in which Pliny appears to mention the existence of Jesus. The letter is not
about Jesus himself; it is dealing with a political problem. In Pliny’s province a law had been passed
making it illegal for people to gather together in social groups… The law applied to every social group,
including fire brigades….and so villages were burning.
In his letter 10 to the emperor Pliny discusses the fire problem, and in that context he mentions another
group that was illegally gathering together. As it turns out, it was the local community of Christians.
So you tell me. Is Ehrman now lying about what he actually thought when writing the above?
Conclusion
In the end Ehrman ducks behind the “it was just a pop book, you shouldn’t expect it to be all accurate and the like”
defense. This requires no reply. The reader can judge for themselves whether that excuse only makes the whole matter
worse. (Can you imagine him accepting that excuse from any of the mythicists he attacks?) He also tries to play the victim
card and claim I violated my own principle of interpretive charity. But in fact I did not. I gave him the benefit of a doubt
everywhere an innocent explanation was conceivable, exactly as my principle requires (for example, I assumed that when
he wrote “Justin of Tiberius” for Justus of Tiberias on p. 50 that that was a mere typo). But my principle also states
(exactly as he himself quotes it) that when no such interpretation is plausible, we ought to point that out, so the author can
correct their error. Which is exactly what I did.
Thus, his attempt to twist a rule of interpretive charity into a monstrous absurdity doesn’t cut it, and only exposes how poor
a grasp he has of logical reasoning. Authors don’t get to say the exact opposite of what they meant and then claim it is our
responsibility to telepathically know that that is what happened. Authors don’t get to say things that clearly indicate they
badly mishandled their sources, and then claim we are always to assume they never do that. Authors don’t get to say things
that clearly indicate they didn’t check their facts, and then claim we are always to assume they nevertheless did. Indeed, as
his own quote of me says, if you cannot reconcile a contradiction or error in my work, you should call me on it so I can
correct myself. Well, I called him on it.
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EHRM A N’ S DUB IOUS REPLIES ( ROUND ONE) DE B A TE IN RIVE RSIDE

114 comments
G. SH ELLEY • AP R IL 29 , 2012, 6 :20 P M
Good reply, I think that covers it all. Having read some of the other replies, it seems both Murdock and Doherty
are annoyed at the way he misrepresented them (in their opinion), on points you barely even mentioned (if at all).
There’s a pretty interesting article on you vs Ehrman at Vridar, where Neil godfrey looks at your criticisms and
whether Ehrman defended them. He scores it 9-1 to you, giving Ehrman one on the qualifications issue because
he feels a bit sorry for him
http://vridar.wordpress.com/2012/04/28/the-facts-of-the-matter-carrier-8-ehrman-1-my-own-review-
part-2/
One point I haven’t seen (or if I have, that I forgot), is how often Ehrman complains that you actually agree with
his conclusion, so he doesn’t see why you are making such a big deal out of errors in how he got there. to me,
this is suggestive of his entire attitude to the Historical Jesus issue. The conclusion, that there was one, is the most
important thing. How it is reached, is less significant.
R E P LY
R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • M AY 2 , 2 0 1 2 , 6 : 0 5 P M
On Doherty etc. finding other things wrong that I didn’t mention: I left out aton of things that
were wrong with his book, and I’m sure there are a great many more I didn’t catch simply
because I’m not as intimately familiar with everyone else’s every page of work (hence as I
note in the above post, I don’t trust he has accurately represented what even Murdock says,
and it shouldn’t be my job to check–he should have gotten it right to begin with, so I could be
confident he is representing his opponents accurately).
On his dismissive attitude about the how vs. the what, I quite agree. This is exactly what is
wrong with his whole book, and apparently the whole field of Jesus studies in its treatment of
the matter. They start with a conclusion and then look for ways to defend it. Instead of
looking for methods that work, and then applying them to facts they carefully establish, to see
what they end up with. He is just demonstrating that “appeals to consensus” in his own field
are logically invalid. Because they aren’t even concerned whether their conclusions logically
follow from their premises, and often aren’t even all that concerned whether their premises
are true (or rather, they insist they are, but are unconcerned with knowing whether in fact
they are). “I have to be right. So I don’t need to check.” That’s the sum of it.
R E P LY
R . J O H N S T O N • M AY 2 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 1 : 1 2 P M
“
On his dismissive attitude about the how vs. the what, I quite agree. This is
exactly what is wrong with his whole book, and apparently the whole field of
Jesus studies in its treatment of the matter. They start with a conclusion and
then look for ways to defend it.
I can’t claim much familiarity with “scholarly” Jesus studies, but from what I’ve seen here and
from what I’ve seen of more popular works, this is giving too much credit. People claiming
historicity don’t even try to defend the claim; usually they’re simply confused about what
qualifies as evidence and at best they try only to show that historicity isn’t in conflict with the
evidence. Of course when there’s so little evidence and your terms are so poorly defined to
begin with–the degree to which defenders of historicity equivocate over and otherwise
obfuscate the meaning of “historical Jesus” (“wandering rabbi who said a few things that
partially inspired one of the variants of the Jesus story” or “apocalyptic preacher who threw
the moneychangers out of the temple, was known throughout the Roman world, was crucified
by the Romans after being betrayed by his disciple, and whose tomb was empty a few days
after he was buried?” Something in the middle? Who knows? The definition changes as
convenient to people “arguing” for historicity) is astounding and sufficient on its own to render
their arguments entirely unserious–that best case scenario doesn’t particularly amount to a
defense of claims of historicity.
Of all the possible claims of historical events that might have occurred 2000 years ago, give
or take, that aren’t in conflict with the evidence, the overwhelmingly vast majority didn’t
actually happen. Our capacity to imagine things that happened is infinite, and the evidence
available to determine what happened 2000 years ago is limited and not particularly subject
to growth in the future.
I can claim that 2000 years ago today my then living matrilineal ancestors all ate lamb for
dinner and that’s a claim that is perfectly consistent with the historical evidence. To the extent
that a historical Jesus, however defined, would have been expected to leave behind some
actual positive evidence of existence–an extent that surely, depending on precisely how such
a Jesus is defined, ranges from minimally likely up to as likely as almost anyone of the time
frame–it’s even a stronger claim than the claim of historicity for Jesus.
R E P LY
AN AN D A • AP R IL 29 , 201 2, 7:50 P M
I don’t understand this at all.
Your both good public debaters. Why all this?…… Set a date.
metta…….
Ananda
R E P LY
Debates are lame.
R E P LY
S A W E L L S • M AY 3 , 2 0 1 2 , 6 : 3 4 A M
Debates measure persuasiveness, not truth or evidence or even reason, making them utterly
useless for determining matters of fact.
R E P LY
C O Z M O T • M AY 4 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 1 : 1 6 A M
Richard’s response to you is, “Debates are lame.” Yet, on his blog he advertises:
“Later this month I will be debating the existence of God with Lenny Esposito of Come
Reason Ministries, on Wednesday May 23rd, 7-9pm (2012), at UC Riverside, in University
Lecture Hall [UNLH 1000] on 900 University Ave. in Riverside (California 92521).”
Hmm. Looks like someone lacks confidence. He’ll take on a lightweight evangelical, but not
get in the ring with a heavyweight scholar. Much safer to hide behind blog postings, rather
than go face-to-face, right?
I’m just beginning to learn more about Richard, based on what I’ve seen in the blogosphere,
and I am not impressed.
R E P LY
R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • M AY 6 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 0 : 0 6 A M
Nice job ignoring everything I’ve said about debates and how they cannot
accomplish what is being asked here. See my latest comment on this. I
have no problem debating (I do it all the time). I do have a problem with
people who think it resolves anything.
R E P LY
N EA N D R OS • AP R IL 29 , 201 2, 7:59 P M
So when Gandalf the Grey returns as Gandalf the White, is this freshly laundered garment an example of a
resurrection body? It’s just that it resembles jesus’ transfiguration suit. I doubt Osiris would have worn white
(what with his green complection).
R E P LY
X AN TH E • AP R IL 29 , 201 2, 9 :1 4 P M
Quick question, Richard: in your long quotation of Ehrman in the section under “Did Ehrman Screw Up His
Citation of Pliny?” there are a couple of ellipses at the end of the first paragraph in the blockquote – are they in
the original? You did say “I’ll just quote the relevant section in full” and I don’t have a copy of DJE? to check,
but this is where “in full” conflicts with the “relevant” part of the quote.
This is the bit with the ellipses I mean:
“
In Pliny’s province a law had been passed making it illegal for people to gather together in
social groups… The law applied to every social group, including fire brigades….and so villages
were burning.
R E P LY
Yes, you’re right. The elided material is superfluous (things not relevant to either of our
points) which I left out to shorten how much you have to read. I should avoid any ambiguity
about that. I’ll emend the text to say so.
R E P LY
BR IA N • APRIL 29 , 2012, 10:25 PM
I enjoy your posts Richard. Keep up the good work.
El Barto has left the field, claiming to be above it all. Reminded me a bit of the accommodationist-anti shootout
on the blogosphere. Ehrmann et al. Being similar to accomodationists in that they’re quite happy to side with
believers for browny points at the expense of the numerically smaller and maligned other. But perhaps that
analogy is to strained or weak.
I look forward to your next post, and appreciate both the work required to edit them, and that you’ve also got a
busy life. Cheers!
R E P LY
MIC H A EL • APRIL 29 , 2012, 10:50 PM
Well done.
R E P LY
JES S EW • AP R IL 29 , 201 2, 1 0:50 P M
One oddity about Ehrman’s blog post making the reply is that he neglected to actually link to the original review
he was replying to. And when I added a comment with such a link, it was rejected (all comments are moderated
before posting, similarly to this blog).
I’ve now attempted to post it again, along with a link to this reply. We’ll see if it goes through.
Here’s a screenshot as proof that I did submit the comment: http://imgur.com/2vGBg
R E P LY
J E S S E W • M AY 3 , 2 0 1 2 , 5 : 2 3 P M
AFter JT Eberhard posted about my difficulty getting the links to show up, my comment was
accepted. Strange, that.
R E P LY
BU N DY • APRIL 30, 2012, 4:45 AM
If Errman’s work is this unreliable, his attacks on the New Testament in his other books are now questionable.
Thats a criticism I am seeing more and more on Christian blogs now, and it needs to be dealt with.
R E P LY
Such an argument would be fallacious, of course. That he hosed this book doesn’t mean he
hosed the others. In fact, he very conspicuously didn’t. You cannot find anywhere near the
number, scale, or degree of errors and fallacies in them that you can find in this book. That
alone demonstrates this is some sort of special animal.
R E P LY
R . J O H N S T O N • M AY 2 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 0 : 3 6 P M
Ehrman didn’t just hose this book. In this book he rejected the concept of history as a field of
empirical study. He rejected the concept of logical argumentation. Perhaps it can be taken on
your authority that his previous work was well researched and argued, but it can’t be taken
on Ehrman’s authority because he’s shown pretty conclusively that he doesn’t know what
good research and argument are.
R E P LY
T I M O T H Y G U Y • M AY 2 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 1 : 0 2 P M
not really surprised. I could insert about 100 “eye rolls” here. you think its errors in “this
book” because it disagrees with you… but in all his “other books” that backs up your views
against the bible he is “spot on”!.
bottom line it is you guys who are full of hot air and misrepresenting the facts to suit your own
agendas. that is pretty obvious. and it doesn’t matter if there is a “Dr” in front of your name
or not.
you cling onto any even remotely associated or twist-able tiny shred of information and make
a mountain of it. then claw anyone to pieces who would dare to question your amazing
findings and conclusions when any 12 year old could see how ridiculous they are.
R E P LY
JAC OB ALIET • AP R IL 30, 201 2, 1 0:20 AM
Again, a thorough, well-written response. Good work.
R E P LY
A N D R E W • M AY 1 , 2 0 1 2 , 9 : 0 9 A M
“The view that Claudius changed the title of Judaean governors from prefect to procurator has long
since been refuted (most conclusively by the work of Fergus Millar”
I assume you are referring to these articles:
Millar, Fergus. 1964. “Some Evidence on the Meaning of Tacitus ‘Annals XII’. 60,”Historia: Zeitschrift für
Alte Geschichte 13.2: 180–187.
Millar, Fergus. 1965. “The Development of Jurisdiction by Imperial Procurators; Further Evidence,”Historia:
Zeitschrift für Alte Geschichte 14.3: 362–367.
——–
But in Millar 1964, he says plainly on p. 181:
“It is clear that such procurators [sc. governing small provinces], originally called praefecti, exercised a criminal
and civil jurisdiction in their areas, which was equivalent to that of senatorial governors, except in that it was only
in special cases that they possessed the ius gladii”
——-
He is clear that prefects who were governors of minor provinces were originally called prefects, and Millar
(1964: 181, n. 9) cites A. H. M. Jones’s Studies in Roman Government and Law(Oxford, 1960) to support
this, and does not engage in any refutation of this idea. The rest of the article is an interpretation of Tacitus,
Annales 12.60, and Millar argues that it refers to Claudius’s granting of increased jurisdictional power to those
procurators who managed imperial properties, a different type of procurator from the type who governed small
provinces.
In addition, Millar (1965) simply adds more evidence to the case that Tacitus, Annales 12.60 refers to the
authority of procurators of imperial properties: there is no refutation of the view that Claudius changed the official
titles of the minor equestrian or freedmen provincial governors from prefect to procurator.
More analysis here:
http://thoughtsphilosophyculture.blogspot.com/2012/05/carrier-versus-ehrman-on-procurators.html
R E P LY
R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • M AY 5 , 2 0 1 2 , 8 : 2 3 A M
Millar 1965, pp. 364-65: “The legal evidence shows clearly that procurators never had a
recognised right to exercise criminal jurisdiction.”
See also P. A. Brunt, “Procuratorial Jurisdiction,”Latomus 25.3 (July-September 1966):

461-89, with my analysis in Herod, pp. 34-35 (and in context, pp. 29-36.
R E P LY
T H E G O L D S T E I N S Q U A D • M AY 1 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 : 3 0 P M
Its apparent that Errman can not be trusted.

Perhaps he never could be.
R E P LY
M A R T A • M AY 1 , 2 0 1 2 , 2 : 5 2 P M
Where are the damn replies?
R E P LY
As I announced inBusy Bee I’m traveling like mad this month and won’t be able to get to
comments for many days at a time. That’s not usual. It’s just a weird thing about this late
April and May, where I have been booked across the country every weekend. I apologize
for the delay this causes.
R E P LY
T R A C E • M AY 1 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 1 : 0 1 P M
Thanks for this whole series of entries Richard. It’s just the kind of academic rigor and reasoned critique I’ve
come to expect from you. I think most people would have been far less charitable than you in this situation.
It’s truly disappointing to see Ehrman so vehemently mashing the self-destruct button on his own credibility when
I’ve heard him consistently claimed to be the paragon of historicity. I have yet to read any material on the
subject, and I’m beginning to wonder if I should start looking elsewhere for a good defense of the position.
R E P LY
A L E X D A LT O N • M AY 2 , 2 0 1 2 , 8 : 2 7 A M
Thom Stark smacked you down pretty hard, Richard. Surely you’re going to respond to him…..
R E P LY
I’ll get it it when I’m back home and have time in June. Again, most of his points have already
been refuted in comment threads here at my blog. I just have to cull them together. In the
meantime you can check out the threads for all my Ehrman blogs to find them. See the index
down the right margin of my blog, under Bart.
R E P LY
G E O R G E L O C K E • M AY 2 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 : 4 3 P M
If I may be a bit immodest: I predicted that this is how he would react.

http://www.richardcarrier.info/archives/1026/comment-page-1#comment-8578
R E P LY
S T E V E • M AY 2 , 2 0 1 2 , 6 : 1 9 P M
Here’s what I’d like to know – when is your book on the Jesus Historicity question coming out, and will it
incorporate these arguments with Ehrman? (I mean the follow-up to “Proving History” – which is excellent,
BTW)
R E P LY
Next year. And probably not much, because they actually have little to do with the argument
for myth, which is one of the criticisms I made of Ehrman’s book: it doesn’t actually engage
with any complete (much less non-straw-man) theory, and most of what he discusses isn’t
even relevant to historicity (although that he sometimes even concedes; e.g. Tacitus is not
corroborative because he cannot be shown to have his information from any source not
deriving it ultimately from the Gospels). As to methods, Proving History already addresses
that.
R E P LY
V I C T O R • M AY 2 , 2 0 1 2 , 7 : 1 7 P M
Yes, thanks Richard for your work on these posts. Even before you published your review, I felt ripped off
having bought DJE? I paid for a book by a professional precisely because of his work in the past and I couldn’t
believe what I got. I don’t have the background to have caught many of the mistakes, but the logically fallacious
arguments were quite frustrating. At least your analysis gave me the satisfaction I was expecting from the book.
R E P LY
D A N • M AY 2 , 2 0 1 2 , 8 : 5 6 P M
Some rather smart people are trashing your reply(s):
http://thoughtsphilosophyculture.blogspot.com/2012/05/carrier-versus-ehrman-on-procurators.html
http://religionatthemargins.com/2012/04/the-death-of-richard-carriers-dying-messiah/
They are essentially questioning your reading comprehension. I think I am in agreement with them.
R E P LY
R A U L C R U Z - M I R E L E S • M AY 3 , 2 0 1 2 , 3 : 1 9 A M
As always, your intellectual rigor have made a significant contribution to academia. The ethical quality of Dr.
Ehrman -and not only his logical fallacies- are now more than clear. Thank you very much.
R E P LY
D A N N Y M A S O N K E E N E R • M AY 3 , 2 0 1 2 , 4 : 0 6 A M
although the presence of errors in Ehrmans latest book does not necessarily mean all his methods are flawed, it
does mean that we need to take a closer look at this approach in his other works.
That is what some of his opponents have done, and although I previously dismissed their work I am now giving it
a second look.
R E P LY
S T E V E B Y R N E • M AY 3 , 2 0 1 2 , 8 : 5 7 A M
Being an agnostic on this question and one of of bart’s readers i cant help but conclude he’s playing tennis
without anet here. You have correctly imo called him on the illogical presupposition of historicity. I also believe,
(I could be wrong) that’s the only way he can play the game, given his background in biblical inarrency. I know
thats exactly what his supphosed “epiphany” involved, but it isnt what made him agnostic. Imo an apt analogy
would be the different mindsets of democrats and republicans in this country. They speak the same language,but
appear to come from different planets. Dr. carrier care to comment?
R E P LY
Simple answer: I don’t know.

R E P LY
V I N N Y J H 5 7 • M AY 3 , 2 0 1 2 , 8 : 5 9 A M
In an exchange with Steven Carr and myself in the comments on one of him blog posts, Ehrman initially claimed
that Acts confirms that James was the biological brother of Jesus, but then conceded that it doesn’t.
http://ehrmanblog.org/the-text-of-the-new-testament-are-the-textual-traditions-of-other-ancient-
works-relevant/ This struck both of us as very odd. If you are going to claim that Galatians 1:19 supports
confidence in Jesus’ existence “beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt,” how can you not have reflected on the
fact that our next earliest source to discuss the James in question declines to identify him as Jesus’ brother and
drops Mark’s reference to Jesus having a brother named James? When I pointed out that a natural reading of
Acts would make James the son of Alphaeus, Ehrman fell back on the “everybody knew it” defense to explain
why Acts doesn’t identify him as the brother of Jesus.
You suggested in your review that Ehrman hadn’t read certain Roman sources (or at least hadn’t adequately
read them), but I don’t think that there can be any doubt but that Erhman has read Acts many times and gone
over it with a fine tooth comb. Perhaps he simply never read it with its mythicist implications in mind and perhaps
never realized it had any. I’m guessing that when he wrote Did Jesus Exist?, he simply relied on his memory of
his previous reading of the sources rather than reading them again with the idea of looking at how they might fit in
a mythicist argument.
R E P LY
That’s plausible. But still irresponsible if you are writing a book directly addressing the
matter. That’s when you go back and check everything and make sure you read it right the
first time. In an online conversation or a blog I can accept a slip like assuming Acts says
James was a brother of Jesus, because you never noticed that before. But if you are going to
make an argument in a book based on the existence of James as a brother of Jesus, you
really ought to check carefully what evidence you have on hand and what opponents of the
idea have said about it. But he didn’t, evidently. And it is this dismissive carelessness that
bothers me.
R E P LY
V I N N Y J H 5 7 • M AY 6 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 1 : 4 1 A M
That’s plausible. But still irresponsible if you are writing a book directly addressing the
matter.
No argument there.
I notice a similar dynamic at work where Ehrman claims that Paul said he met Jesus’ closest
disciple, Peter. In fact, Paul never describes any one as being a “disciple.” If he had, that
might indicate that Paul understood the earthly Jesus to have had some sort of teaching
ministry. All the epistles speak in terms of “apostles,” a title which Paul says he obtained by
virtue of an encounter with the risen Christ.
It is hard for me to believe that Ehrman didn’t come across some mythicist argument
somewhere that cited the distinction between an apostle and a disciple, but it doesn’t seem to
have registered. Whenever he runs across “apostle” or “the Twelve” in one of the epistles, he
seems to read into it the concept “disciple of the historical Jesus.”
R E P LY
A B E L A R D D U N K I N S M I T H • M AY 3 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 0 : 0 4 A M
Richard,
This is all really interesting stuff. It all makes me curious how the job hunt is going since you’ve received your
diploma. Any community collages jumping to hire you? I mean if not that there is always high school positions
available and maybe even some fantasy novel publishers may be eager to publish your work (as we all know self
publishing can be quite expensive).
Cheers,
Abelard
R E P LY
Positions are rarely available where I am (Bay Area, California), due to the recession and
cuts to humanities departments and community colleges. And when positions do come up,
they get swarmed by much more established applicants who have held professorships before.
So I’m not optimistic about getting a position until the economy substantially improves. If I
even want one. The politics and backstabbing in academia is a huge turnoff. And I have much
more academic freedom working for myself. Not to mention time.
R E P LY
S T E V E N B O L L I N G E R • M AY 3 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 0 : 1 8 A M
I finally managed to read DJE? all the way to the end. Oy, that was painful. I’m keeping in mind your insistence
that this book is far from Ehrman’s best work and far from the strongest possible case for historicism.
It’s been only about 6 weeks since I first encountered the term “mythicist.” I have the impression that the term is
sometimes applied imprecisely, to anyone who is not a strict historicist in Ehrman’s it’s-certain, move-along-
folks, nothing-to-see-here sense. Is it true that who belongs in the historicist camp, or the mythicist camp, or
neither, is not always agreed upon, and that the categories are sometimes fuzzily defined?
R E P LY
Not usually. But you might be on to something. I think Wells’ latest view complicates the
narrative for historicists, since they want mythicists to be deniers of existence and not
agnostics, but really most serious mythicists are at least somewhat agnostic about there being
any actual person named Jesus at the heart of it all. We none of us claim to be certain. But
once we allow Wells to be a mythicist, it’s true the number of established scholars in the field
who might categorize as mythicists might be substantially higher than Ehrman thinks. Droge,
for example, would then qualify.
R E P LY
A B E L A R D D U N K I N S M I T H • M AY 3 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 0 : 2 2 A M
To clarify my early point. Seriously dude, do you think that any other REAL academic takes you seriously? A
self proclaimed ‘world renowned philosopher’? Really?! All I can find is that you have two-published papers in
journals that don’t even make the Leiter top 20 (though I’m guessing your ‘rebut’ for that would be to tell me
that he’s an idiot). I bet you don’t have the balls to post these comments, you hack.
Cheers,
Abelard.
R E P LY
My published work in philosophy is read and known and used in Poland, Hong Kong,
Australia, the Philippines, Brazil, Pakistan, India, and of course the U.K., Canada and the
U.S. Among other nations. That’s what it means to be “world renowned.”
The rest of your comment is childish.
R E P LY
G R O G • M AY 7, 2 0 1 2 , 9 : 0 5 P M
Seriously, RC, nobody would think less of you if you didn’t approve this A.D. Smith
nonsense. He’s apparently a very troubled person to post this troll shit on your site. AD
would probably cry about on his site, maybe even post the unpublished comment. Who
cares? He’s become irrelevant.
R E P LY
S T E V E B Y R N E • M AY 3 , 2 0 1 2 , 4 : 2 7 P M
I’ve just read Doherty’s part8 response on Vridar. He say’s the “invention” is a conjunction of the Q
communities’ kingdom preaching evangelists and Paul’s christ basically. Isnt this just a different way of
articulating Ehrman’s position, but with more than one person as the basis. I believe both positions are pretty
close to Crossan’s. Please correct me if Im wrong but it seems that way to me. Again im only an amateur. Could
Bayes be used to assess the probability of an apocalyptic kingdom preaching community similar to the
conjectured Q in the first half of the century?
R E P LY
I find all of that conjecturing about Q and layers of Q to be speculative and not strong ground
to stand any theory on, whether mythicism or historicity. I’ve leveled this criticism at Doherty
before. By contrast, I find Goodacre’s case against Q more compelling, as it is based in
evidence we actually have, using reasonably sound logical arguments.
MacDonald is about to come out with a book that might change my mind about that, but
then his book is going to challenge everyone’s preconceptions about Q. It will certainly be a
must read, whether we agree with him in the end or not.
R E P LY
T E R R Y C A R T E R • M AY 3 , 2 0 1 2 , 8 : 3 6 P M
Richard,
I’m one of Ehrman’s fans, particularly because he educated me in textual criticism through his books, something
I thought I understood, but really didn’t. But in reading his new book in question, I began to sense something
different, that it wasn’t quite up to snuff with his other books. It began with his discussion of Josephus, where I
found the reasoning illogical, hopeful rather than factual, and of the variety for which he later attacks certain
mythicists, hence contradictory.
I do believe that he mounts some convincing arguments in the core of the book for a historical Jesus. But the
way he goes after some mythicists, who are not of the crackpot variety, surprised me with his personal tone.
This is particularly evident in hs concluding chapter, where he maligns mythicists in general, and ascribes motives
to their viewpoints, such as, “They are not doing history; they are doing theology.” I believe that this assessment
is not only unfair, but that it’s gratuitous.
One of my big takeaways, however, was an introduction to mythicists such as you and Doherty. He actually
piqued my interest your work because of some weak argumentation and the underlying personal attacks.
And then the blog wars began.
I frankly don’t quite know what to make of all this. You’re both gotten personal on a level that bespeaks current
American politics. You, in particular, remind me of the Republican side when using terms like “sucks” and
“crap,” words that simply do not belong in a scholarly lexicon. As I’ve pointed out, Ehrman sinks into this too,
but with a little more eloquence. But you’re both down in the mud.
Like you and other readers of the book, I feel like Ehrman’s book was rushed, but so are your responses. I
haven’t read any of your books yet, but if your writing style in them is like your responses here to Ehrman, I’m
not sure that I could endure any of them. It was very difficult following your arguments and criticisms with
paragraph-long sentences, interpolated with paragraph-long parenthetical sentences, many poorly punctuated.
If your books are better written, let me know (if you even care
R E P LY
I write differently in different venues. Not the Impossible Faith is more colloquial, to be
entertaining. But Proving History, though still aiming at plain language, is more serious.
However, I actually believe scholars should use emotional and colloquial language. The idea
that it is inappropriate belongs to a bygone age of elitism and false facades of absolute
objectivity. We must strive to be honest and objective, but that actually includes expressing
your honest thoughts, feelings, presumptions, and biases, and showing how you deal with
them. For example, if I use the word “crap” I back it up with evidence and indicate what I
mean (in this case, for example, my point is that Ehrman also thinks what mythicists
sometimes do is crap, so when he does the same things, he really ought to self-reflect).
R E P LY
G R A Y H A M E • M AY 3 , 2 0 1 2 , 8 : 5 0 P M
Richard, I must say after reading all your posts regarding the problems with Ehrman’s book and the mature and
thoughtful way you’ve addressed them is very heartening. I’m disappointed in Ehrman’s responses to your
critique, but I’m grateful that you have taken the time to respond to him so thoroughly. I have just purchased
your books and look forward to reading them. Well done!
R E P LY
J O H N • M AY 4 , 2 0 1 2 , 7 : 4 0 A M
Reports are out that first century fragments of the Gospel of Mark have been found. Let’s assume that they can
be shown to be first century/and the fragments mention Jesus, in your mind, would this put the mythicist argument
to rest once and for all?
I really appreciate how responsive you have been to our comments.
Thanks very much Richard!
R E P LY
The claim is almost certainly bogus. And since most mythicist theories are compatible with
Mark being written in the 70s, then no, finding such a thing would present no challenge.
R E P LY
J A C O B A L I E T • M AY 4 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 2 : 1 3 P M
Hi Richard,
You may be interested in reading this: http://www.bibleinterp.com/PDFs/Response.pdf
Regards,
Jacob
R E P LY
Thanks. I’ll look into it when I get back from my travels. Possibly not until June.
R E P LY
G A G E • M AY 4 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 2 : 5 2 P M
Wonderful rebuttal, I look forward to buying your upcoming book. I just have a quick question, and forgive me
if I’m not phrasing this correctly. When you argue against the existence of Jesus, are you arguing that the stories
of the New Testament were crafted and assembled without any sort of original, existing main character, or that
they were based of some guy named Jesus who could’ve been a preacher, but the way he is present is
incorrect?
For example, is it that many crazed preachers were around about that time, some of which happened to be
called “Jesus”, one of which may have been the basis for the main character in the NT? Or that “Jesus”
preachers were around, but the stories themselves were a collection of myths, prophesies and stories from
Jewish and other sects that were altered over time, and the fact that the guy in the book is called “Jesus” and
“Jesus” happens to be someone’s name is irrelevant?
Thanks again for your work
R E P LY
I think the most likely theory is that he was a hallucinated celestial being about whom earthly
stories were crafted as allegory. But the second most likely theory is the one you suggest, that
he was an inspirational preacher of some kind about whom largely bogus myths and legends
arose.
R E P LY
P I E R C E R . B U T L E R • M AY 1 4 , 2 0 1 2 , 5 : 1 5 P M
… the most likely theory is that he was a hallucinated celestial being … the second
most likely theory is … that he was an inspirational preacher…
What’s your take on Robert M. Price’s imputation (The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man:
How Reliable Is the Gospel Tradition?, pg 314) that the Gospel Jesus is based on the
madman/preacher Jeshua bar Ananias who (sort of) prophesied the fall of Jerusalem circa the
peaceful year of 66 (per Josephus), and was duly punished for same?
R E P LY
R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • M AY 1 5 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 0 : 0 9 A M
If I recall correctly, Price does not argue that the whole Gospel Jesus is
based on Jesus bar Ananias, only that that story may have been among
many that influenced it. That’s two qualifications: “may” and not “did”; and
“part” and not “whole.”
If that is what we take to be the proposal, then I would allow it as a

plausible speculation that we cannot prove to be probable. Arguing
against it is the same principle Price applies elsewhere: if we can account
for the entire contents of the Gospel without that (and we can), then
Occham’s Razor eliminates it. That does not amount to proving no
connection exists. It just demonstrates we have no reason as of yet to
believe it does. But it could. It’s not an outrageous proposal. It’s just only
a proposal.
That theory, BTW, is compatible with both historicity and mythicism

(since on both we all agree legendary accretion has occurred, and this
could be one of those, akin to how the legend of King Arthur appears to
have grown by accreting elements from many actual and mythical persons
over time).
R E P LY
P I E R C E R . B U T L E R • M AY 1 5 , 2 0 1 2 , 7 : 5 2 P M
Price gives about half a page at most to this idea, but he hangs an awful lot of story from it:
“
… the trial before Pilate, with the Jewish rulers standing by, filled as it is with
fatal implausibilities, must be a fiction, and its origin is, again, not far to
seek. Mark borrowed it from Josephus’s story of another Jesus, Jesus ben-
Ananias.
An incident more alarming still had occurred four years before the war at a
time of exceptional peace and prosperity for the City. One Jeshua, son of
Ananias, a very ordinary yokel, came to the feast at which every Jew is
supposed to set up a tabernacle for God. As he stood in the temple he
suddenly began to shout: “A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a
voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the Sanctuary, a
voice against bridegrooms and brides, a voice against the whole people.”
Day and night he uttered this cry as he went through all the streets. Some of
the more prominent citizens, very annoyed at these ominous words, laid hold
of the fellow and beat him savagely. Without saying a word in his own
defence or for the private information of his persecutors, he persisted in
shouting the same warning as before. The Jewish authorities, rightly
concluding that some supernatural force was responsible for the man’s
behaviour, took him before the Roman procurator. There, though scourged
till his flesh hung in ribbons, he neither begged for mercy nor shed a tear, but
lowering his voice to the most mournful of tones answered every blow with
“Woe to Jerusalem!” When Albinus – for that was the procurator’s name –
demanded to know who he was, where he came from and why he uttered such
cries, he made no reply whatever to the questions but endlessly repeated his
lament over the City, till Albinus decided he was a madman and released him
(The Jewish War VI 302). Four years later, his prophecy was fulfilled by the
Roman siege, during which Jesus ben-Ananias was killed. … Jesus comes to
Jerusalem for one of the great festivals and creates a prophetic disturbance
in the temple. He preaches soon-coming judgment, the destruction of the
temple, and he says it will spell the end of ordinary life, for example,
weddings (Matt. 24:38). The elders of the people haul him before the Roman
procurator, who interrogates him but gets only silence for an answer.
Puzzled, the procurator asks him where he is from (John 19:9) He decides to
have him flogged and let him go (Luke 23:22b). Which Jesus are we talking
about here? Both. Yet again, Mark has retrojected the events of the
subsequent generation into the time of Jesus.
R E P LY
B U L H U R • M AY 4 , 2 0 1 2 , 4 : 0 9 P M
“I am not convinced Ehrman even knows why most scholars are convinced the Tacitus passage is authentic.”
So why are they?
R E P LY
In short, it’s good Tacitean style, which is hard to fake; it’s an integral component not only of
his narrative of the fire but his narrative of the entire reign of Nero; there is no plausible point
where an interpolation would begin or end (since he foreshadows and follows up); and it
contains nothing only a Christian would say or even that a Christian would likely say. Possibly
there have been other points raised that aren’t coming to me now as I sit here in the Oregon
forrest writing this off the top if my head. But that’s the gist of what convinces me, for
example.
R E P LY
R E S P E C T F U L A T H E I S T • M AY 5 , 2 0 1 2 , 5 : 1 4 P M
Richard, just in case you haven’t seen it yet, Stark has actually written a part two now (where he responds
directly, and at great length, to your contention that his points have been refuted in the comments thread).
Here’s the direct link, to that latest article, http://religionatthemargins.com/2012/05/the-torturous-death-of-

richard-carriers-dying-messiah/.
It’s perfectly understandable, if you can’t respond right away (given how busy you are this month), but wanted
to be sure you were at least aware of this second piece.
R E P LY
R IC H AR D C AR R IER • JUN E 21 , 201 2, 4:06 P M
That discussion is ongoing now. My reply to the above is The Dying Messiah Redux, with
follow up in comments.
R E P LY
R E F V N • M AY 5 , 2 0 1 2 , 7 : 2 2 P M
“Between 41 and 44, Judaea was ruled by a king, Herod Agrippa. When he died, Judaea became a province
again; the governor was no longer a prefect, but a procurator. The main difference is that a prefect was a soldier
and a procurator was a civilian. Another difference is that the procurators were also responsible for Galilee and
the territories on the east bank of the Jordan. A third difference was that the prefects had had a considerable
influence on the appointment of the high priest; under the procurators, the high priest was appointed by a Jewish
prince named Marcus Julius Agrippa.” – http://www.livius.org/jo-jz/judaea/judaea.htm
Is this also “outdated” since the 1960s?

Why aren’t any scholars following your conclusions about the titles not being shifted? Do you have any evidence
at all for any prefects after 44?
R E P LY
Yes. My article cites several scholars discussing that point, with examples.
R E P LY
X P E • M AY 6 , 2 0 1 2 , 4 : 4 1 A M
Why would http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/birthofchrist.html not be true?
R E P LY
I don’t see the relevance of this. But see here.
R E P LY
G K R • M AY 8 , 2 0 1 2 , 8 : 3 0 P M
You’ll need to change all Perseus links on that page.
R E P LY
I bounced over to bart’s FB and lo and behold he says he writes books for three different types of audiences.
My goodness this proves that the gnostic model of Freke and Gandy lives! So the pneuma & psyche primates
are receiving different teachings. He hides the rest of his explanation behind a paywall and I refuse to join no
matter how altruistic it is. The IRONY!!! Richard tell me it aint so joe.
R E P LY
I look at this question the same way I look at who was buried in tomb KV 55. Akhenaton or Smenkhare? Are
they the only candidates? As an ancient historion (yes I have your credentials right contra ehrman), do you think
that that there was a person involved? There are eminent ancient historians that dont believe there was a
Smenkhare. Again this seems to me a battle between an historian and an ecclesiast. History matters to me,
espescially 1st century med. Is there ever going to be any kind of language convergence between real history
and ecclisiast history?
R E P LY
B U L H U R • M AY 6 , 2 0 1 2 , 4 : 4 6 P M
So you mean that the text will suffer from omitting “auctor nominis eius christus per proculatorem pontium
pilatum supplicio adfecit erat”? The repressa in the next sentence could as well be refering to Nero’s
persecutions, and not to the execution of Christ. Can one really determine the Tacitean style of this single
sentence?
R E P LY
R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • M AY 7, 2 0 1 2 , 7 : 2 8 P M
Nero was supposed to find culprits, guilty persons, which necessitates Tacitus explaining who
and how and (per Tacitean style) explore the possibility that they were or weren’t guilty
(which the whole passage does superbly well, in brilliant Tacitean humor). If you delete all of
that, you end up with a barely intelligible passage where Nero finds culprits and punishes
them and we never hear who or why or how. Whereas, if he only mentioned Christians in that
capacity, then we have to ask who they were, why they were named that, and why the
people hated them. The sentence you mention fills that in. Its absence would make the
passage unintelligible to most readers (contrary to what Christian apologists say, Christians
were virtually unknown in Tacitus’s day, even to the most informed legal experts and
statesmen; see my discussion of Pliny as an example in chapter 18 of Not the Impossible
Faith).
R E P LY
J B • M AY 6 , 2 0 1 2 , 5 : 2 9 P M
Perhaps even Hillar: ”This religion was also discovered by Jesus himself (regardless whether he was a historical
figure or only a literary fiction)” – Marian Hillar (From Logos to Trinity, 2012, s 2)
R E P LY
M A T T • M AY 6 , 2 0 1 2 , 5 : 4 9 P M
I just finished Ehrman’s book. Your review and the responses are fascinating. I thought the strongest case for a
historical Jesus came from the early dates ascribed to the gospels, but I didn’t see much to substantiate the
dates, or the claim of multiple sources within a few years of Jesus’ death. The quoting of Q, M, and L as actual
pre-Markan sources just seemed silly.
R E P LY
M I C H A E L S C H R O E N • M AY 7, 2 0 1 2 , 2 : 2 8 A M
What are the sources that attest a Christian belief that Jesus died a century before Pilate? I assume one of them
is the Toledoth Jeschu.
R E P LY
R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • M AY 7, 2 0 1 2 , 7 : 3 2 P M
Epiphanius, Panarion 29.3 (if I recall the passage number correctly; I’m writing from a
mountainside in Oregon at present) and the babylonian Talmud (all the passages that place
him in history place him in the time of Jannaeus). But yes, the TJ does as well.
R E P LY
K R I S K O • M AY 7, 2 0 1 2 , 7 : 3 8 A M
Just went to Ehrman’s site to read some more of his stuff. I can’t even believe that he has the gall to charge
people a membership fee to read his blog.
R E P LY
S H E L L E Y • M AY 8 , 2 0 1 2 , 8 : 0 4 A M
Hi — I’m almost done reading Ehrman’s book, find your critique interesting and compelling, and have a
question. Do I understand correctly that the supposed gospel sources called “L,” “M,” and “Q” are all
hypothetical and not actually proven to have existed? That some (most?) scholars have posited or hypothesized
that there were these earlier oral or written sources, sources they’ve named with those three letters, upon which
they believe Mark, Luke, Matthew gospels must have been largely based? That they’ve thus hypothesized
simply because it seems to them the best explanation for certain common or conflicting passages in the various
gospels, but not in any way because there’s either proof that these Ls or Ms or Qs existed or even any actual
specific reference to them in any other source? Have I misunderstood this whole thing or is that correct?
If that is correct, I’m finding it increasingly bizarre as I move through Ehrman’s book that he repeatedly “proves”
one or another argument by reference to “L” and/or “M” and/or “Q” as a corroboratory source among others.
Am I getting this right? He’s backing up his arguments by referring to non-existent, purely hypothetical,
documents? Thanks for clarifying if you’re willing. I have no religion or education in religion but do find this
fascinating stuff.
R E P LY
You are entirely correct. And your reaction to these facts is entirely apt.
R E P LY
B U L H U R • M AY 8 , 2 0 1 2 , 7 : 4 8 P M
I don’t see how the Christus-sentence answers “[1.] who they were, [2.] why they were named that, and [3.]
why the people hated them”, as you say Dr. Carrier, and how its absence could make the passage “barely
intelligible”. This is why I do not agree:
Even Christian scholars have acknowlegded that “repressaque in præsens” could refer to the Neronian
persecution and not the execution of Christus.
“The passage is the following: ‘repressaque in praesens exitiabilis superstitio, rursus erumpebat’ &c. The
meaning has been supposed to be, that Christianity was checked by the persecutions of the Roman Emperors,
but afterwards reappeared and spread itseld with greater rapidity.” (“Cook’s General Evidence of the
Resurrection”, The Eclectic Review, vol. IV, part I, London 1808, p. 496)
Bishop Lightfoot said: “the words ‘repressa in praesens’ will breed some dispute; as doubtful, whether they
mean, that the Christian religion was suppressed by Nero at that time,-when he inflicted those tortures upon
them, pretending them guilty for firing the city,-which was in his tenth year, but it brake out again after, for all that
suppression;-or that they mean, that the religion had been suppressed in former time, but now, by that tenth year
of Nero, was broken out again, and he falls upon it anew.” (The Whole Works of the Rev. John Lightfoot, vol.
3, 1822, p. 302)
If “repressaque in praesens” refers to the fact that Nero “subdidit reos et quaesitissimis poenis adfecit, quos per
flagitia invisos vulgus Chrestianos appellabat”, then the Christus sentence is not needed.
1. WHO: The text does already inform the readers that the superstitio originated in Iudaea (“Iudaeam, originem
eius mali”), and has (since the Neronian persecution) been spreading in Iudaea and Rome, repeated times
(“rursum erumpebat”). There is no need for any scolastic sentence about Christus being executed by Pilate here.
2. WHY THE NAME: I don’t see why Tacitus would have needed to inform the readers why the group was
named Chrestiani. If in fact this lectio difficilior (known from Tertullian in Ad Nationes 1:3) is the original reading
– which several prominent scholars like Franz Römer believe, and the oldest extant manuscript confirms – it is an
oddity in itself to present the “auctor nominis” of the ChrEstiani as ChrIstus. Even if the original reading was
Christiani, I don’t see why Tacitus had to explain the origin of the name. Suetonius doesn’t (Nero 16.2).
3. WHY THEY WERE HATED: This objection does not make any sense to me. They weren’t hated because
Christus was executed by Pilate, were they? Tacitus clearly states that they were “per flagitia [connected to
“pudenda” in the next sentence?] invisos”, and that they were convicted because of “odio humani generis”, and
of course because of the “crimine incendii”! Shameful acts (connected to genitalia), hatred against mankind and
THE FIRE OF ROME, was of course enough to hate this group. No need for any executed founder here.
The only reason left to view the sentence (which indeed looks like a scribal addition) as Tacitean, would be the
pun supplicio – superstitio, but this is not definitive in any way.
I thus maintain that the sentence “auctor nominis eius christus … erat” could be removed from the Tacitean text
without the readers being left with an “barely intelligible” passage.
R E P LY
R E F V N • M AY 8 , 2 0 1 2 , 7 : 5 1 P M
“Pilatus war Präfekt, nicht Prokurator von Judäa” – Gerd Theißen,Annette Merz, Der Historische Jesus: Ein
Lehrbuch, 4 ed., 2011, p. 89
So all these renowned scholars use outdated sources, you mean

Just because other prefects in Cicero’s days (he only mentions a few) were also procurators, and Herod was,
why would Pontius Pilate have been one? Josephus and Philo wrote in Greek, appearently not writing
procurator.
R E P LY
The reason Pilate would have been a procurator is the same reason the Egyptian prefect was
and Herod was (of Syria) and so on, all explained in detail in my referenced article. And yes,
Theissen is unaware of the literature and evidence I cite. This is typical of Jesus scholars
defending historicity.
R E P LY
L A R R Y • M AY 1 7, 2 0 1 2 , 1 2 : 1 8 P M
Dr. Carrier. From time to time I’ve been following the questions and discussions concerning Jesus of Nazareth.
Of course ALL critical scholars find Jesus Christ to be a myth. It’s just a question of degree. Those such as the
majority (Ehrman, Mack, Edwards, Tabor, Miller, Crosson and many others) hold that Jesus did exist and
usually they hold that we know a few of his words. I think the Jesus Seminar puts it at about 14 percent of his
gospel quotes were probably said by Jesus. But their Jesus is NOT the Jesus of the NT and the Roman Catholic
Church & my friend who is a Priest. There is the odd position of Tabor that Jesus’ father was a Roman soldier
who impregnated his mother while she was promised to another (Joseph?). I assume Tabor takes his cue from
the late second century attacks on Christianity which also make the claim and over a century later, Origen took
exception.
As to Tacitus. I’ve wondered about that passage for well over a decade. I’ve read authors such a Ken
Humphreys of jesus never exited dot com (to me an embarrassing website) which insist the Tacitus passage
about Christ being executed by Pilate is a blatant forgery and Ken & a few others point to the “procurator”
mistake as strong proof! Another author (this one a scholar) wrote that the passage is genuine and Tacitus simply
used the term for the office which his readers in 110 CE would know best. And I’ve seen a couple scholars…
several years ago… which hold your position that Pilate actually had three titles: Procurator, Perfect & Governor
and Tacitus was not mistaken.
Now I’ve noticed on the web some authors and scholars coming to Ehrman defense and offering rebuttal to your
position on Tacitus and mentioning your name that indeed Tacitus was mistaken & your read of the scholarly
work of Tacitus is flawed. I found the original “two” links on this comments page
To me the point is; where did Tacitus get the information? From the gospels, Paul’s letter to Timothy, from some
Christians, from his education, was it info he always seen to know from childhood, from his memory of seeing it
in Roman records, did he consult Roman records and if he did, did it read “perfect” & Tacitus changed it to
“procurator” or did Tacitus naturally know Pilate had three titles?
To me, we will never know the answer with absolute certainty just as we will never know with absolute certainty
if Jesus really existed and if he did which version is correct? Will we ever know with certainty if Eusebius forged
the “TF” or if Dr. Feldman, Dr. Whealey & Dr. Goldberg (Goldberg I found out is not an academic historian–
his PhD is in Physics) and many others are correct and the “TF” contains core parts that include mention of
Jesus’ execution by Pilate that were written by Josephus himself? Goldberg actually holds that Josephus simply
copied much of the TF from a document now lost that the author of Luke also used for part of his gospel.
My take is Jesus likely existed and was an endtime/end of the world prophet & teacher who likely taught a bit in
parables & was executed by orders of Pilate. When this happened, his original followers which were probably
Peter, John & James were stunned & had to adjust their story. Paul fell in to the deal and Paul and the Jerusalem
boys clashed & what we have today is mostly Paul’s version.
Beyond that, who knows? Look forward to your new book as it may move me along or somewhat in a different
direction.
Question. Recently read the late Jewish scholar Hyram Maccoby’s take on Paul. The good doctor thinks it’s
likely that Paul lied about being a Jew! Liars is one of the type of people Paul said shall not enter the kingdom of
heaven. If he wasn’t completely crazy or a liar among liars, I doubt Paul lied about being a Jew. Your take if you
care to say.
Wish you much success and good health!

Oh I almost forgot. Are you certain that is a statue of some figure that some claim is St. Peter with a 20 inch
cock ready to ejaculate all over the room in the Vatican museum? I can’t find a thing on the internet to date
except a source that Acharya S gives, it’s a lady I think, who has seen it or knows of it’s existence. But the
picture Acharya offers on the web of this ancient version of porn star Peter North is a drawing and NOT A
REAL PICTURE!!. I’m beginning to be skeptical that the Vatican has such a thing. Of course other versions of
it exist from antiquity in various parts of the world I’m told. But not on my person damn it!!
R E P LY
R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • M AY 1 7, 2 0 1 2 , 4 : 2 4 P M
Tacitus most likely got his information from Christians (most likely through the intermediary of
his good friend Pliny the Younger). But he was a Roman statesman well familiar with the
administration of the empire. He knew that a procurator was a civilian job and not a state
office, that anyone executing justice in Judea would have been, in his own day as in days
past, a prefect. But he also would have known that prefects were also often hired as imperial
procurators (particularly in such provinces), and he did not like this fact and found it
particularly galling that this made mere lowly business managers into executioners and
executors of state justice. It was therefore more embarrassing that Christ was executed “by a
lowly business manager” than that he was executed by a prefect, so in Tacitus’ usual
polemical style he emphasizes the one and avoids mentioning the other. Because he would
have had this motive, we cannot even say that “procurator” is what Pliny or his Christian
source called Pilate. They might have just said Pontius Pilate. Tacitus then filled in the other
datum from his own knowledge and rhetorical interests.
Against his consulting records, (a) there are unlikely to have been any at Rome (not only is it
unlikely such minute records were duplicated at Rome, but also because the bulk of the
Roman archives would have burned in 64 A.D. and possibly again under Domitian), and he
wasn’t going to sail to Caesarea to do a trivial fact check; (b) he wouldn’t even waste his
time rifling through Roman archives for so trivial a point anyway (he would have applied the
fallacious principle even Ehrman falls victim to: the claim is already so embarrassing, it surely
has to be true, therefore doesn’t have to be checked); and (c) Tacitus says nothing that
would indicate a record was his source (e.g. no full name of the executed person, no specific
date, or anything else that would be found in a record but not typically come from a
Christian) but just repeats part of the standard Christian creed at the time (as revealed in the
letters of Ignatius).
On Josephus, my views (and their basis) are explained in my article in this coming winter’s
issue of the Journal of Early Christian Studies.
As to the statue, I have no idea. There is some evidence it may have been moved to another
museum. Where it is located doesn’t matter. But it definitely did exist (there are actual
photographs of it, and it is discussed in modern peer reviewed scholarly literature). Whether
it’s a forgery, for example, or what the statue represents, are matters of debate. Odds are it’s
just a statue of Priapus recovered from Pompeii or Herculaneum. It has nothing to do with
Christianity.
R E P LY
S T E V E B Y R N E • M AY 1 8 , 2 0 1 2 , 8 : 2 5 P M
the hjers cannot in their minds get their heads around the actual situation concerning the situation in 1st cn med.
imo. i am not saying i am omniscient about it but Stark as quoted by you i think comes pretty close. but then
again i like crossan’s template. this was something that did not matter to them. and tacitus’s dismissal is entirely
in his vocabulary. nobody cared. ehrman is grasping at straws because he’s mixing theology with history. i know
their not mutually exclusive, but i’ll be damned if their the same methodology. dr. carrier, i dont care if theres a
priapus in the vatican or anywhere else, wont these people at least argue logically? im being rhetorical i know,
but i’d just like to know your thoughts on the difference between ancient history(real) and whatever it is their
trying to sell.
R E P LY
E L L E • M AY 1 9 , 2 0 1 2 , 3 : 5 4 A M
You might be interested in two soon to be released books:
http://www.amazon.com/This-Carpenter-Copenhagen-International-Seminar/dp/1845539869
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Criteria-Demise-Authenticity-Chris/dp/0567377237/ref=sr_1_1?
ie=UTF8&qid=1333460385&sr=8-1
They both seem to be quite good.
R E P LY
I cite both in Proving History.
R E P LY
E L L E • M AY 2 4 , 2 0 1 2 , 3 : 4 1 A M
There are three critical essays posted at Hoffmann’s blog, if you are interested. One of them is by famous
biblical scholar Maurice Casey.
http://rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/
R E P LY
R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • M AY 2 4 , 2 0 1 2 , 2 : 4 8 P M
Thanks. I’ll look into those when I get back home next week.
R E P LY
R IC H AR D C AR R IER • JUN E 21 , 201 2, 1 2:26 P M
I finally read them. They mostly either don’t talk about what I myself have argued (and thus I
don’t care) or they do but ignore or misreport what I actually said. All one need do is read
my book Proving History to see that they have misrepresented its arguments, claimed it
didn’t discuss things that it did, or that it said things it didn’t. There is also a lot of shameless,
indiscriminate competence-bashing of established scholars (e.g. Stanley Porter is apparently
an incompetent hack who can never be right about anything and I’m a fool for ever citing
him–even though when I do, I back up what I cite him for by citing other scholars who
concur with him, but hey, never mind that, interferes with the narrative I guess; I even
occasionally argue Porter is wrong and cite scholars saying so, e.g. on his “Jesus spoke
Greek” claim, but pointing that out would screw up the narrative, too, and Lesson 1 in
polemics is, you never mess with a good story).
R E P LY
W H O L E T H I N G • M AY 2 7, 2 0 1 2 , 4 : 5 4 A M
I’ve been a fan of Bart Ehrman for a few years. I’ve read 10 or 12 of his books. I thought there was probably
some preacher who had been exaggerated. After reading Did Jesus Exist, I decided to read The Jesus Puzzle
by Earl Doherty. Doherty’s argumentation seemed to be tighter than Ehrman’s. About 3 chapters in, I was
persuaded that the whole religion was not based on a real person. Then I went back to read Ehrmans’ criticism
of Doherty.
BDE had said that ED quoted authors but did not mention that they held opinions that differed from Doherty’s
and you mentioned that, so I tried to pay attention to that issue in my reading. As far as I could see, ED either
mentioned something to the effect immediately before or immediately after the quote unless it was clear from the
quote that the author held a different view. For example, in one quote uses to support his position, ED includes
“it is perplexing…” to show that the original author didn’t go where ED did with it.
But what really bothered me is from page 253 of DJE where BDE accuses ED of crying “Interpolation”
whenever there’s an inconvenient verse (pages 14-15 of TJP). ED cites just two passages – 1 Thessalonians
2:15-16 and 1 Timothy 6:13 – as being interpolations. ED discusses both in Appendix 1 where he says, “It is
admittedly in my own interest to regard the reference to Pntius Pilate in 1 Timothy 6:13 as an interpolation, but
there are clearly good reasons for doing so.” At the end of the section on the 1 Thess passage, he lists seven
scholars “who have pronounced the passage as interpolation.” BDE adds G. A. Wells to the list. (A quick
Google found a website that rejects the passage from verse 13 as interpolation while they refuse to toss the last
12 verses of Mark because it would call into question the Divine inspiration of the Bible.)
1 Thessalonians 2:15 says the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus. BDE uses 1 Thess 2:14-15 on page
188 of Misquoting Jesus to support this idea as being Paul’s opinion. He appears to be unaware of the
anachronism in verse 16 that “The wrath of God has come upon them at last.” What wrath would have been
evident to the Thessalonians that happened between Paul’s conversion and his first letter? The only question is
where the interpolation begins. Besides, ED cites Romans 11 where Paul writes 2 “God did not reject his
people…”
Both BDE and ED cite Ignatius and Clement to make points about what 2nd century ideas were and they seem
to conflict. I’m less familiar with that material so I haven’t been able to form an opinion on that. I’m putting the
three books mentioned above back on the shelf and taking down Proving History.
R E P LY
M A N O J J O S E P H • J U N E 7, 2 0 1 2 , 1 0 : 2 8 A M
Hi Richard,
Here is an interview of Bart Ehrman.

http://religionforlife.me/2012/05/21/dr-bart-ehrman-will-the-real-jesus-please-rise-part-2-may-24-28/
This is part 2 of the “Will the Real Jesus Please Rise? series.
There is nothing new here. None of your criticisms seem to have registered. Or, Ehrman is sticking to his guns.
Cheers
Manoj
R E P LY
B R A D LEY ST EEG • JUN E 30, 201 2, 1 :21 P M
If I understand correctly, Bart Ehrman wrote __Did Jesus Exist?__ for the layperson (me). Yet “Erhman’s
Dubious Replies (Round Two)” seems to take Ehrman’s book to task for not being a thoroughly researched
work of scholarship. In my mind, the question of a historical Jesus is a matter of best explanation. Therefore,
even if Bart Ehrman was a scallawag who tried to wiggle out of making a mistake on the existence of, for
example, a cock statue, who cares? In terms of the thesis of Ehrman’s book, the existence of the cock statue
doesn’t matter because it is entirely irrelevant to the question of a historical Jesus. My suspicion is that Ehrman
wasn’t thoroughly careful with the cock statue because he knew it was a non-issue, but funny enough to include
for a book directed toward a popular audience. Your criticism, Richard, if followed by Bart, would make his
popular books boring as hell. I know your Jesus is a Myth thesis is important to you, but grow a sense of humor
for god’s sake. Now, even though I am a layperson, I can still smell bullshit even though I can’t tell you the
molecular composition of said bullshit. And pointing to turds in the bathwater to subtly hint we should throw out
the baby is bullshit. Especially since everyone knows Ehrman has a proven track record. So let me say this, if
you hope to convince the uneducated folk that the baby Jesus was a work of fiction, show us why your better
explanation is best. Because in terms of overall explanatory power, Ehrman’s __Did Jesus Exist?__ lays out an
easily digestible and convincing argument for the wee people (scholarly minutia, notwithstanding).
R E P LY
R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • J U LY 2 , 2 0 1 2 , 4 : 5 0 P M
There is a difference between making an argument intelligible to laymen, and making an

argument only for laymen. The latter can only properly be done after the argument has
already been formally made and published–so that that scholarship can then be summarized in
lay terms. But no such step has occurred. There are no recent formal treatments of Jesus
mythicism, especially of the arguments Ehrman purports to take on in his book. He is
therefore breaking new ground. That requires him to meet all the requisite standards of any
other original argument in his field. He can choose to do so in colloquial terms, but he still
must argue responsibly and competently. He chose not to.
Even when he summarizes existing scholarship to laymen, he has an obligation to do so

accurately and without being grossly misleading. Yet he frequently fails even at that minimal
standard. Thus he failed even insofar as this book is a summary of existing scholarship (which
only half of it is, the rest is completely new scholarship of his own). This is uncharacteristic of
his past work. He just didn’t act responsibly when writing this one book for some reason.
And your claim that writing an accurate sentence about the cock statue would be boring as
hell is so false I don’t even know where to begin. Oh, I know. Refutation by example: “The
statue she refers to is not a statue of Peter, but a statue of the pagan god Priapus, one of
many like it. That it ever represented Peter is simply a product of her imagination, with no
basis in evidence.” No less boring than the sentence he wrote. Yet twice as honest and ten
times as accurate.
And to reiterate my entire point: one such gaffe is not a problem. A book littered cover to
cover with such gaffes is a travesty, a total abandonment of academic responsibility. That’s
the problem. Not any one isolated failure. But the shear number of them.
R E P LY
B R A D L E Y S T E E G • J U LY 4 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 : 3 2 A M
Richard, I see you think someone should have made a formal treatment of recent Jesus
mythicism. Maybe you were hoping Ehrman would have been the one to deliver the goods, I
don’t know. But he did provide an overview of what recent Jesus mythicism might argue.
In __Did Jesus Exist?__ Ehrman says the case for Jesus mythicism is composed of a negative
argument, that we have no reliable witness that even mentions a historical Jesus, and a
positive argument, that the story of Jesus appears to be modeled on the accounts told about
other divinities, therefore, it is simplest to believe he never existed and was invented as
another supernatural being. (page 34 in my Kindle).
In response, Ehrman argues that we do have reliable witnesses who mention a historical Jesus
and that the story of Jesus is unique. For one, we have Paul rephrasing Jewish eschatology
(or, theology, if you prefer) rooted in Jesus’ resurrection and stating that he met with Peter
and James, brother of Jesus. Because resurrection requires the existence of a dead body (a
dead righteous Jew), Paul’s theological construct relies on a Jesus that can have a brother
and a disciple. Paul was running around telling all his fellow diaspora Jews the resurrection
was coming (and everything thing else that went along with that) because he thought Jesus
was the first fruits that affirmed Paul’s eschatological expectation.
In addition, Ehrman also mentions Paul’s talk of the dying messiah who was foolishness to the
Jews because they expected a messiah who was going to kick ass, not get hung on a cross
(or stick, or T). Not that the Jews expected their messiah to be a god, according to Ehrman’s
reference to EP Sanders; he was just the human king that would make Israel the ultimate
superpower.
Consequently, according to Ehrman, we have both a reliable witness in Paul’s letters for a
living breathing Jesus as well as Paul’s resulting mythology uniquely rooted in Judaism rather
than paganism that necessarily required a living breathing, dying and living again Jewish
Messiah.
In my mind, if your book is going to make as strong a case for Jesus mythicism as you say it
will then you’re facing a massive reconstruction of 1st century 2nd temple Palestinian Judaism
on the level of EP Sanders (if I accurately understand Ehrman’s explanation of that Jewish
time period and place by Sanders) in order to unwind the eschatology in Paul’s letters from a
historical Jesus.
Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s what I think you’re facing to show that the better explanation of
Jesus mythicism is best. Anyway, Happy 4th of July.
R E P LY
R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • J U LY 4 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 0 : 1 6 A M
“
But he did provide an overview of what recent Jesus
mythicism might argue.
Actually he did a very poor job of that. Nowhere in his book does he
describe a single complete theory of the origins of Christianity from any
mythicist scholar. And he frequently misrepresents their arguments as well.
Your “summary” of what Ehrman says mythicism consists of illustrates

exactly this failure: that is not an accurate summary of any mythicist theory
(not even the bad ones, but especially the best ones). That you have been
taken in by his false depiction is exactly why this book sucks.
Likewise, your summary of Ehrman’s case for historicity leaves out all its
boner logical mistakes (some of which I documented originally), and its
failure to properly shore up key points (like actually taking on mythicist
arguments regarding the “brother of the Lord” in full, rather than short
shrifting and straw manning them) and its reliance on assumptions that are
not widely accepted even in the mainstream (such as that there is no
interpolation in 1 Thessalonians). These facts make his book one of the
worst cases for historicity published. A far better case could be made.
Thus it’s not even useful as an example of the strongest case to overcome.
R E P LY
A N D R E W • J U LY 6 , 2 0 1 2 , 1 1 : 1 1 P M
The core of the problem is that Christians are fed the lie that “pagan myths” and “Christianity” were like oil and
water, and could not have possibly overlapped in any way. This lie is implanted so deeply that even when people
like Ehrman supposedly become “ex-Christians,” they continue to think in those terms. He simply cannot
understand that myths form the core of all ancient religions.
R E P LY
M E H • J U LY 2 6 , 2 0 1 2 , 8 : 3 7 A M
This whole thing is ridiculous IMO. Richard, I am not sure if you were bored, or had something biting at your
ass. Your both great scholars. This whole thing smells of trolling. It brought up interesting information, but I feel it
could have been handled in a better manner. But hey, I am not you.
R E P LY
R I C H A R D C A R R I E R • J U LY 2 7, 2 0 1 2 , 4 : 0 8 P M
meh.
R E P LY
P H I LR OMOV • S EP TEMBER 4, 201 2, 7:31 AM
+1
I’m a fan of both. Richard’s stuff is just great, and Bart has renewed my interest in fun-to-
listen-to debates.
R E P LY
F LOR I A N BLA SC H K E • F EBR UAR Y 15, 2013, 6 :44 AM
After following your link to Acharya’s forum, I went on to read the discussion a little further and discovered that
she actually *denies* having ever claimed that the statue she depicts in her book had anything to do with Peter. I
find that credible, as, while she admits that the phrasing is somewhat ambiguous and prone to misunderstanding,
she points out that there is a line break in the original that she thought was enough to make clear that she meant
that the *cock* (rooster) – and not the *statue*! – is a symbol of Peter, which was what her original point was
all about:
http://freethoughtnation.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=25667#p25667
Disappointing that this was never even mentioned here; the commenters indulge in knee-jerk Acharya-bashing
without ever giving her a chance to air her own view on the matter, and misrepresent her, while at least in this
case it appears that she has actually researched the matter better than Ehrman and Burke, who were desperately
trying to distract from their own mistakes. It is vital to correct the present bias against her.
R E P LY
R IC H AR D C AR R IER • F EBR UAR Y 26 , 2013, 6 :49 P M
That would at least be an excusable error on Ehrman’s part. But that doesn’t justify what he
actually said in turn. He was way off base in every other respect. And she’s right about that.
But let’s not play into any persecution complex here. He didn’t bash Acharya because she’s
Acharya…it’s doubtful he knew anything about her or had any significant experience with her
reputation…or because she’s a woman…I doubt Ehrman cared about that at all. He bashed
her because he was bashing all mythers and, I suspect, just sloppily skimmed what she wrote,
and formed opinions solely from her lack of academic rigor rather than from actually fact-
checking and vetting her arguments. Remember, he even attacked me for being unqualified,
and I have a Ph.D. in ancient history! Imagine the prior bias he would have had against an
amateur. That’s what you are reading between the lines of his treatment of her.
R E P LY
F LOR I A N BLA SC H K E • MAR C H 3, 2013, 12:58 P M
I’ve never said *Ehrman* was targetting her in particular (certainly not because of her being a
woman; not sure where you’re getting that idea from). I’ve just found a *general* bias
against her around here. I’m not saying it’s entirely undeserved; my impression is that
accusations of incompetence and sloppiness and a cult of personality having formed around
her are justified to some extent (I have not delved into her writings or forum enough to form a
solidly supported opinion of her in general, though). Still, even if she is something of a crank,
that does not mean that she is *always* wrong or sloppy, and that “serious” scholars
*never* are (which should be obvious, but unfortunately is not obvious to everyone). In this
case, the roles do appear inverted. Take-home lesson: Never rely on assumptions blindly.
Every case should be judged on its own merits. Prejudice is *really* just bad.
R E P LY
RICH ARD CARRIER • MARCH 4, 2013, 4:07 PM
“
I’ve never said *Ehrman* was targetting her in particular
(certainly not because of her being a woman; not sure
where you’re getting that idea from).
I was responding to your remark that “the commenters indulge in knee-

jerk Acharya-bashing” (in response to which, I happen to know, many
Acharya fans have claimed sexism or other forms of conspiratorial
persecution; hence my aim was to head off that train of thought here
before it starts up again).
That said, I also agree with your most recent remarks.
R E P LY
ST U • JAN UAR Y 1 1 , 201 4, 1 :1 1 P M
Richard—I have learned a lot from both yourself and Bart over the years. It is , in fact, wonderful to see 2
scholars vigorously debate a question. Christopher Hitchens ( I am also a great admirer of his) would, no doubt,
be impressed. My opinion is that you have a stronger argument and have demonstrated superior knowledge on
this issue. I find your “mythicist” argument compelling.No doubt, many mythicists are not compelling ( as Erhman
points out). Your theory, however, is plausible and well argued. Continue the good work. Reason needs you!
R E P LY
P SY C H OP OMP GEC K O • AP R IL 9 , 2014, 4:07 P M
I don’t even see why the debate needs to go too much in depth toward other mythologies and gods to justify
why they made him up. The debate needs to focus on them providing some sort of contemporary evidence for
Jesus that can prove existence. I don’t feel we can trust the Bible because he wants to argue the existence of
Jesus with a book that claims he walked on water, brought the death back to life, caused a zombie apocalypse,
and cursed a fig tree for not bearing figs out of season. You can’t rest a claim on reality on a book that has all
that fantasy and considers it all to be just as true as the rest. What is his basis for picking and choosing?
And on top of that, contemporary sources are lacking. They had documents all over the place back then, and
yet none were devoted to a figure who was either performing miracles or just being a great rabbi with a rising
fanbase. Not even with his supposed trial, which probably would have left some record. The best they can do
are people who were born thirty years after they suppose all this happened, which means they cite people who
wrote about hearsay.
If Jesus was just a regular person, I can see why they’d say it was safe to assume he existed. The only reason his
existence is a big deal, though, is because he was so important a figure that he had a religion founded about him,
with some people claiming he was a god. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. They don’t even
have ordinary evidence.
R E P LY
LU K E MEY ER • S EP TEMBER 1 1 , 201 4, 2:39 AM
I have a sincere question about your overall theory. When you make the case that Mark “euhemerized” a
celestial being, do you allow for the possibility that Mark relied on some oral traditions when writing his Gospel,
or was *everything* that involved Jesus being on Earth in his Gospel euphemism on Mark’s part, with absolutely
no oral traditions or sources for him to go on?
If you think that latter (that Mark had no sources/oral traditions about Jesus on Earth), then what do you make
of the two “Feeding of the Multitudes” stories that are in his Gospel (the feeding of the 4,000 and the feeding of
the 5,000)?
My personal belief is that these stories are so similar, they probably originated as just one, single story (probably
originating in Palestine). Over time, the story spread to numerous people and some details were changed
(creating multiple different versions of the same story). Mark, then, heard these two different versions of the
story (probably from different people). He didn’t know that they were actually the same story, and so he
recorded them both (probably thinking that each event had really happened).
But that wouldn’t mesh with the theory that Mark just euhemerized everything about Jesus being on Earth. So
now I’m wondering how you would explain these two stories if that is the case (euhemerism) and why would
your explanation be a better explanation than the one that I’ve described above?
R E P LY
R IC H AR D C AR R IER • S EP TEMBER 1 8, 201 4, 1 1 :53 AM
The feeding stories are mythic derivations from Homer, Moses, and Elisha, and are
deliberately duplicated, not accidental. I demonstrate this in OHJ, pp. 413-18. (The Homeric
basis is treated in MacDonald.)
But there certainly could have been previous oral (or even written) allegories about Jesus that
Mark used. Just as Mark is previous to Matthew. The euhemerization needn’t have been
started by Mark. We just can’t know for sure, even if such earlier efforts existed, much less
what they said or how they framed or interpreted it. So we have to judge by the evidence we
have. Not what’s possible, but what’s actual.
R E P LY
GAD AREEN • N OVEMBER 9 , 2014, 8:47 AM
“The feeding stories are mythic derivations from Homer, Moses, and Elisha, and are deliberately duplicated, not
accidental.”
Please prove this. Thanks
R E P LY
GAD AREEN • N OVEMBER 9 , 2014, 9 :46 AM
“I think it just doesn’t matter to some that the Bible is not the word of God. Christianity has become, in some
cases, a support group. People gather together and read the bible not because they believe but because they feel
secure within the group. The mega churches have huge gatherings of like minded people who say they believe
but are actually just modified hate groups with con men leading the way. Christianity has just become a cult of
many factions. It is religion without spirituality. So sad….
Until people can find their way without relying on myth the Bible or something equally silly will rule the day.”
So says a poster on Ehrman’s blog. Ehrman forbids mean-spirited comments. “modified hate groups”
R E P LY
GAD AREEN • N OVEMBER 9 , 2014, 10:11 AM
Some Bible “scholars” don’t know that they don’t know. Assumptions and probabilities evolve into facts and
proof. The foundation for a modern skyscraper that isn’t plumb and true, by even a tiny amount, results in an
enormous, impressive, and awesome structure constructed to collapse at any moment.
R E P LY
R IC H AR D S TOK ES • D EC EMBER 9 , 201 4, 8:30 AM
I find it curious that two New Testament scholars (who should be staunch allies) embark on such destructive
tirades.
Recently, in the field of evolutionary theory, Richard Dawkins and Edward Wilson have had a massive falling
out. I was quite shocked when in an interview on BBC2 Wilson dismissed Dawkins as ajournalist not a
scientist!
What’s really going on? What is the hidden psychology behind such conflicts?
Are Freud’s concepts of defence mechanisms (no doubt ridiculed by all parties) still pertinent in analysing such
tit-for-tat brawls?
R E P LY
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2012-04-29 Ehrman's Dubious Replies (Round Two) (Richardcarrier - Info) (1151)

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Ehrman’s Dubious Replies (Round Two)

BY R ICH AR D CAR R IER / ON APRIL 29, 2012 / 114 COMMENTS

Was Pilate a Procurator?

Did Ehrman Overlook Tacitus

Are There Dying and Rising Gods?

Did Ehrman Fail to Mention that Some

Did Ehrman Tell Everyone the Romans

Did Ehrman Libel Doherty?

Did Ehrman Screw Up His Citation of

EHRM A N’ S DUB IOUS REPLIES ( ROUND ONE) DE B A TE IN RIVE RSIDE

I don’t understand this at all.

Debates are lame.

This is the bit with the ellipses I mean:

BR IA N • APRIL 29 , 2012, 10:25 PM

I enjoy your posts Richard. Keep up the good work.

MIC H A EL • APRIL 29 , 2012, 10:50 PM

JES S EW • AP R IL 29 , 201 2, 1 0:50 P M

Here’s a screenshot as proof that I did submit the comment: http://imgur.com/2vGBg

BU N DY • APRIL 30, 2012, 4:45 AM

JAC OB ALIET • AP R IL 30, 201 2, 1 0:20 AM

Again, a thorough, well-written response. Good work.

But in Millar 1964, he says plainly on p. 181:

More analysis here:

See also P. A. Brunt, “Procuratorial Jurisdiction,”Latomus 25.3 (July-September 1966):

Its apparent that Errman can not be trusted.

Where are the damn replies?

If I may be a bit immodest: I predicted that this is how he would react.

Some rather smart people are trashing your reply(s):

Simple answer: I don’t know.

The rest of your comment is childish.

And then the blog wars began.

I really appreciate how responsive you have been to our comments.

Thanks very much Richard!

Thanks again for your work

If that is what we take to be the proposal, then I would allow it as a

That theory, BTW, is compatible with both historicity and mythicism

Here’s the direct link, to that latest article, http://religionatthemargins.com/2012/05/the-torturous-death-of-

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • JUN E 21 , 201 2, 4:06 P M

Is this also “outdated” since the 1960s?

Why would http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/birthofchrist.html not be true?

I don’t see the relevance of this. But see here.

You’ll need to change all Perseus links on that page.

So all these renowned scholars use outdated sources, you mean

Wish you much success and good health!

You might be interested in two soon to be released books:

They both seem to be quite good.

I cite both in Proving History.

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • JUN E 21 , 201 2, 1 2:26 P M

Here is an interview of Bart Ehrman.

B R A D LEY ST EEG • JUN E 30, 201 2, 1 :21 P M

There is a difference between making an argument intelligible to laymen, and making an

Even when he summarizes existing scholarship to laymen, he has an obligation to do so

Your “summary” of what Ehrman says mythicism consists of illustrates

P H I LR OMOV • S EP TEMBER 4, 201 2, 7:31 AM

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • F EBR UAR Y 26 , 2013, 6 :49 P M

F LOR I A N BLA SC H K E • MAR C H 3, 2013, 12:58 P M

RICH ARD CARRIER • MARCH 4, 2013, 4:07 PM

I was responding to your remark that “the commenters indulge in knee-

That said, I also agree with your most recent remarks.

ST U • JAN UAR Y 1 1 , 201 4, 1 :1 1 P M

P SY C H OP OMP GEC K O • AP R IL 9 , 2014, 4:07 P M

LU K E MEY ER • S EP TEMBER 1 1 , 201 4, 2:39 AM

R IC H AR D C AR R IER • S EP TEMBER 1 8, 201 4, 1 1 :53 AM