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0707
1 IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF KANSAS
2
3
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )
4 ------------------- Plaintiff,)
)
5 vs. ) Case No.
) 00-40104-01/02
6 WILLIAM L. PICKARD and )
CLYDE APPERSON )
7 ------------------ Defendants.)
8 TRANSCRIPT OF VOLUME VI OF THE
TESTIMONY OF GORDON TODD SKINNER HAD DURING THE
9 JURY TRIAL
BEFORE
10 HONORABLE RICHARD D. ROGERS
and a jury of 12
11 on
February 5, 2003
12
APPEARANCES:
13
For the Government: Mr. Gregory G. Hough
14 Assistant U.S. Attorney
290 Federal Building
15 444 Quincy Street
Topeka, Kansas 66683
16
For the Defendant: Mr. William Rork
17 (Pickard) Rork Law Office
1321 SW Topeka Blvd.
18 Topeka, Kansas 66603
19 For the Defendant: Mr. Mark Bennett
(Apperson) Bennett, Hendrix & Moylan
20 5605 SW Barrington Ct. S.
Topeka, Kansas 66614
21
Court Reporter: Roxana S. Montgomery, CSR
22 Nora Lyon & Associates
1515 South Topeka Avenue
23 Topeka, Kansas 66612
24
25
0708
1 I N D E X
2 Certificate ------------------------------- 898
3
W I T N E S S
4
ON BEHALF OF GOVERNMENT: PAGE
5
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20 McKenna.
21 Q. Just a second. During your conversations with
22 Mr. Pickard relative to that grand jury
23 investigation, did he make any comments to you
24 regarding any attempts to influence that
25 investigation?
0745
1 A. Yes. We were very nervous about the situation.
2 Q. We being?
3 A. William Leonard Pickard.
4 MR. RORK: Excuse me, Mr. Skinner.
5 Again, I would ask that the Court advise the
6 jury, if Mr. Skinner is going to be allowed to
7 interject all these supposed crimes-- now he's
8 referenced Mr. Pickard as corrupting a grand
9 jury-- I ask you to advise this jury of the
10 cautionary instruction for why they should
11 consider it and what for, because we're getting
12 into now about 17 different things Mr. Pickard
13 has done just since 9:30, and I don't think the
14 jury should be entitled to consider this with
15 respect to this charge unless they're
16 instructed for what purpose.
17 THE COURT: I appreciate you helping
18 me, but I'll overrule your objection. You may
19 go ahead.
20 A. I'll claim equal responsibility for the
21 thoughts of this, so I'm going to say that we
22 were equally devious in this plan. We were
23 very nervous about what Ganga White would say
24 before the grand jury, considering that he was
25 familiar with the swimming pool project, which
0746
1 was code name for the LSD operation,
2 manufacturing, that Alfred Savinelli had told
3 us he had told Ganga, plus other people told us
4 Ganga knew, i.e., Joel Kramer. He knew this
5 information. He was granted some form of
6 immunity. This made us very nervous because we
7 didn't know how far the grand jury would let
8 him talk, and both of us came up with a plan to
9 have-- we said we'd pay his legal bills, we
10 would go-- we would hold his hand and support
11 him and give him moral support, but the real
12 reason we were there, although I never arrived,
13 was to plant a bug on him so we could hear what
14 he said before the grand jury. Grand juries
15 have an interesting problem that not even a
16 lawyer for the client can be present when the
17 grand jury convenes, therefore, what he says,
18 we would virtually have no knowledge of what he
19 said, and it's sealed, and we felt that this
20 was the only way we could ever know, and the
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0757
1 there.
2 THE CLERK: Okay.
3 Q. (By Mr. Hough) All right. Under your name
4 there, if you can just describe for us, now
5 it's on the overhead, what the entries mean
6 regarding you.
7 A. First entry is $1,343. It looks like I
8 scratched through it. It's a total that's
9 given. This is an entry so that we can be
10 accounting for money transfers between the two
11 of us. This represents two airline tickets for
12 him to go to Honolulu, to San Francisco. Since
13 it's times two, it would have been for Natasha
14 and William Leonard Pickard for their wedding.
15 The next one would be St. Martin, Miami, San
16 Francisco, Honolulu. This was because they
17 were not granted by the governor of St. Martin
18 the right to marry, and they had to do this.
19 This is a $4,800 total. It shows, again,
20 another entry that he would been going-- I have
21 no idea what this next line means. I can try
22 and figure it out.
23 MR. RORK: Can we have, like, a date
24 that he's talking about per line, or some
25 idea--
0758
1 THE WITNESS: Okay, 8-11, 2000.
2 MR. HOUGH: For the record, Judge, on
3 the overhead it shows date and time entry.
4 Date and time are on the left-hand side of the
5 scroll.
6 MR. RORK: I meant when he was saying
7 this one--
8 THE WITNESS: I'll do it. 8-9, 2000.
9 I'm a little confused, but now I'm looking at
10 this, maybe this was Bank of America to
11 validate the validity of cashier's checks.
12 That's what I now think this means. 8-7, 2000,
13 this is the long term address of Ivo Kaanen
14 from the Netherlands, who was going to be
15 involved with the quadplex project, with the
16 knock-off Viagra story being told to him, using
17 his family's different companies to be fronts
18 to buy the glassware for a giant LSD lab in the
19 Netherlands. 7-6, 2000, those are my current
20 private numbers. That would have had a prefix,
21 and then the second number, that's 9002, that
22 would have been a private number that would
23 have gone directly to me. The next number
24 would have been the general number. The next
25 number would have been #2079 to get into the
0759
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16 A. 1983.
17 Q. So just one year?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. At the time you were in high school, were you
20 employed anywhere?
21 A. I worked at Gardner Industries.
22 Q. In Tulsa?
23 A. In Tulsa, Oklahoma.
24 Q. In what capacity?
25 A. I would do design and engineering, price
0790
1 quotes, quality control. I was over
2 manufacturing.
3 Q. In high school?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And that was because of your mathematical and
6 other managerial skills?
7 A. Well, I didn't have what I would call
8 managerial skills, but I did have a strong math
9 background.
10 Q. Did you go directly from high school to
11 Heidelberg?
12 A. Well, no, I had a summer break.
13 Q. Were you employed during that summer break?
14 A. Yes. I believe I worked at Gardner during that
15 period, yes.
16 Q. And then when you went to Heidelberg in 1983,
17 did you just do studies, or were you also
18 employed at that time?
19 A. No. I mean, I did-- I had to make-- my income
20 wouldn't-- the amount of money that my mother
21 was sending me, due to the major cost of
22 Europe, didn't cover all my costs, so I had to
23 supplement my income.
24 Q. And how did you do that?
25 A. At that time the banks only had a very short,
0791
1 narrow time that they opened up currency
2 exchange, and so I would carry three, four
3 different currencies around at a time and trade
4 them with the other international students 24
5 hours a day, whenever they would need them, and
6 there were people that were coming from the
7 Middle East to the same school, and they would
8 get a check in on a given day, and I would loan
9 them money until the check came in.
10 Q. Charge them an interest rate or a fee?
11 A. Small fee. Mainly, it was to get the exchange
12 rate. I would give the same exchange rate as
13 the bank, or close to it.
14 Q. And in doing that exchange rate and the loaning
15 of money, again, you used your mathematical and
16 your employment skills?
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20 A. No.
21 Q. Does it include such things as over-the-counter
22 items?
23 A. Yes, yes, and also prescriptions.
24 Q. Thank you.
25 A. But there may be some prescriptions that I have
0798
1 left out that I've forgotten when I was seven
2 or eight or nine years old.
3 MR. RORK: Judge, I'm going to go
4 through all that.
5 MR. HOUGH: Judge, I have no
6 objection to the document, with that
7 foundation.
8 THE COURT: All right, that will be
9 admitted.
10 CROSS-EXAMINATION (Contd.)
11 BY MR. RORK:
12 Q. Go ahead and hold on to that a little bit then.
13 While we're on that, prior to your coming here
14 to testify last week-- and that would have been
15 what, January 27, 2003?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. When did you first know what day you were going
18 to be called upon to testify here, do you know?
19 A. I mean, I have been notified numerous times I
20 was supposed to come here and testify.
21 Q. But for the January 13, 2003, trial, when were
22 you aware when you were going to be testifying?
23 A. I was twice notified. Once I was notified over
24 the phone by Carl Nichols on approximately July
25 the 15th, I think, of the year 2000, then I was
0799
1 handed a subpoena another time.
2 Q. With respect to the January 13, 2003,
3 proceedings.
4 A. That's correct.
5 Q. When did you last review any documents with
6 respect to this case before January 13, 2003?
7 A. Before January 13?
8 Q. Yes.
9 A. Sometime within the week before that.
10 Q. And did you come here to review them?
11 A. I came to this building.
12 Q. And do you recall what you reviewed then about
13 a week before January 13th?
14 A. I reviewed transcripts.
15 Q. And let's go-- were those transcripts of the
16 recordings that have been played here?
17 A. That's correct, and also the video.
18 Q. The video that I saw for the first time with
19 the jury?
20 A. I don't know if you saw it for the first time,
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21 so--
22 Q. Well, I'm talking about the video machines that
23 are here.
24 A. Well, whatever. I don't know when you first
25 saw it, so you're going to have to be more
0800
1 specific.
2 Q. We'll go back then. You saw a video recording
3 of October 23, 2000?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And then you also listened to transcripts that
6 were recorded in 2000?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. And can you tell me, Mr. Skinner, did you
9 listen to the original transcripts that were
10 recorded in 2000, or did you listen to what's
11 been noted as an enhanced copy of the original
12 recording? Do you know?
13 A. The answer to your question would be no.
14 Q. You don't know?
15 A. That's correct.
16 Q. So when you wrote that-- did you look at a
17 transcript, a written transcript at the time
18 you were listening to--
19 A. Give me which time. Which time are we talking
20 about?
21 Q. The week before January 13, 2003.
22 A. I believe those would be the enhanced
23 transcripts. I don't know.
24 Q. Well, I was going to get to that. So the
25 question would be if you looked at transcripts
0801
1 at the time you were listening to recordings.
2 The answer would be yes?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And then you believe those might have been
5 what's called enhanced transcripts?
6 A. I believe that's the nomenclature.
7 Q. And did you listen to them here in this
8 building?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And when you listened to them, did you take a
11 pen or pencil and make any notations on the
12 copies of the transcript you had before you for
13 any changes that needed to be addressed?
14 A. Yes, but it was not for changes. It was--
15 there were-- I was trying to identify was it an
16 A, B, C. I was putting those kind of notations
17 afterwards.
18 Q. So you didn't, then, prepare the conversation
19 between you and Mr. Pickard. Correct?
20 A. I don't know what you mean.
21 Q. Well, the times of the recording conversations
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23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Because when they were played again in the
25 courtroom, you looked at this monitor and
0804
1 viewed what was going on at that time.
2 Correct?
3 A. That's correct.
4 Q. And in the course of doing that, did you happen
5 to make any changes in what you heard on the
6 recordings as to what was showing up on the
7 transcript here, where there were incorrections
8 or there were--
9 A. You mean while I was sitting here?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. No. I made no changes.
12 Q. So a week before January 13, 2003--
13 A. Approximately a week.
14 Q. -- approximately, how long a time do you think
15 you spent on the audio recordings and video
16 recordings and comparing them to the written
17 transcripts?
18 A. That particular time?
19 Q. Yes.
20 A. Maybe a total of four and a half or five hours.
21 Q. That was during-- how long a period of time
22 were you here that week before?
23 A. I mean, a minimum of ten days.
24 Q. And so over that ten-day period then, about
25 four and a half, five hours were used listening
0805
1 to tapes and looking at the words?
2 A. (Witness nods head up and down.)
3 Q. You need to answer out loud for her.
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So other than looking at those tapes then--
6 excuse me-- looking at the transcripts and
7 listening to the tapes, what else did you
8 review to assist you for your testimony here?
9 A. Went over interviews that I had with different
10 DEA agents.
11 Q. And when you were present, Agent Nichols was
12 here?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Mr. Hough was there?
15 A. No.
16 Q. We wasn't there. Hanzlik was here?
17 A. Not necessarily.
18 Q. Tell me who was here then.
19 A. Hanzlik could have been there. Generally, Carl
20 Nichols was there.
21 Q. And you went down to one of the conference
22 rooms downstairs?
23 A. Correct.
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0810
1 at some reports?
2 A. I recall meeting with him. The phrase "few
3 months before," I'm not going to say. Yes, I
4 met with him before that at some point and
5 reviewed documents again.
6 Q. And last-- the week you were here for ten days
7 a few weeks ago, were you given any copies to
8 take with you?
9 A. Of what?
10 Q. Of reports or tapes or anything.
11 A. I was given no tape, no tapes.
12 Q. What about transcripts of tapes?
13 A. No transcripts of tapes.
14 Q. Okay. Instead of playing fish, why don't you
15 tell me what you were given then?
16 A. The only thing I was ever given was some
17 reports.
18 Q. And do you know what those reports-- how many
19 pages that may have consisted of?
20 A. No, I don't know, sir.
21 Q. A hundred pages?
22 A. Less probably. I don't know.
23 Q. Well, did you read the items that you were
24 given?
25 A. No, I was too ill with the flu.
0811
1 Q. So the reports that you visited, do you recall
2 whether or not those were reports of interviews
3 with you?
4 A. They were supposed to be, but I never opened
5 them up.
6 Q. Were you given in the summer of 2002, when you
7 met with Nichols for two days, any written
8 reports to review?
9 A. I believe so.
10 Q. And the time before that when you met with him
11 earlier-- you told me you met with him two
12 times in 2002 to review reports?
13 A. Yes, I hope-- I actually--
14 Q. I mean, if you don't know, that's okay.
15 A. I don't know. I'm not for sure it was two
16 times, so I can't answer you.
17 Q. Every time that-- then you arrived here last
18 Tuesday to testify. Do you recall that?
19 A. This building, yes.
20 Q. Yes. And did you look at any exhibits that had
21 been in these plastic cases that are here prior
22 to your testifying?
23 A. Yes, a box of exhibits were handed to me.
24 Q. And do you recall how long you looked at those?
25 A. A couple of hours.
0812
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1 Q. Twelve hours?
2 A. No, I said a couple of hours.
3 Q. And throughout the time that you have been here
4 since last Tuesday, on breaks, when we'd break,
5 you have had a chance to look at exhibits and
6 go over items, have you not?
7 A. A couple of times.
8 Q. And after you have been asked questions by the
9 government, whether it be a morning break or
10 evening break, you have had a chance to visit
11 with Mr. Nichols and others about your
12 testimony, have you not?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Do you remember an occasion sitting down with
15 Nichols and going through reports he had
16 prepared in this case, and then looking at the
17 reports numbered paragraph by paragraph, and
18 making any changes or corrections that you
19 wanted?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And do you recall whether you did that on one
22 occasion or more than one occasion?
23 A. More than one occasion.
24 Q. Going back to the high school period of time
25 that you were talking about some of the drug
0813
1 use you have given so far, when did you start
2 conducting the experiments with these high
3 school students to determine what drugs you
4 didn't want to do? Same time period?
5 A. No. That wasn't the nature, so the form of
6 your question is incorrect, so you need to ask
7 the question differently.
8 Q. I'll ask the question, Mr. Skinner. If you
9 can't answer, just tell us that.
10 MR. HOUGH: Objection, augmentative,
11 Judge. The question is confusing, assumes
12 facts not in evidence, contrary to direct
13 examination. We'd ask that counsel clarify.
14 THE COURT: Apparently, he doesn't
15 understand your question, so ask it again,
16 please.
17 MR. RORK: He said he understood it,
18 he just said it was compound, it wasn't in the
19 right form, which is a legal objection.
20 THE COURT: Whatever he said, try to
21 help him.
22 Q. (By Mr. Rork) Do you recall the testimony that
23 you indicated that you used high school
24 students for guinea pigs to determine what kind
25 of drugs you didn't want to use?
0814
1 A. No, I actually said I used them as guinea pigs
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11 Q. And--
12 A. I may have read someone's instructions and
13 figured out if it worked.
14 Q. When you began this interest into this
15 sacramental type of activity, again, it was
16 because of things you had read or things that
17 other people had related to you?
18 A. Probably both.
19 Q. Both. And then do you have to join something
20 to belong to this area?
21 A. No. I'd go to conventions, and I would go to,
22 like, Mycophile, which was something that
23 mainly was considered the study of mycology or
24 the study of fungus, which was at that time
25 held in Orcas Island. Prior to that, there
0833
1 were meetings in Brighton Bush, and after that,
2 it then became-- there was a time of overlap
3 where it was called the Telluride Mushroom
4 Festival in Colorado.
5 Q. I want to stay to-- you started, what, about
6 1979 is about when you started?
7 A. Maybe '78, I mean--
8 Q. So from 1978 to 1990, the early '90s when you
9 were doing this research, let's just stay in
10 that time period now.
11 A. Again, the answer I gave you before covers
12 those periods.
13 Q. It does?
14 A. Yeah, Brighton Bush, Mycophile, which would be
15 numbered, the number giving which one it was in
16 sequence, and then the Telluride Mushroom
17 Festival. They basically overlapped or were
18 sequential.
19 Q. And at that point in time, from the time you
20 started working at Gardner Springs until the
21 early '90s, were you still employed at Gardner
22 Springs?
23 A. Well, there was a break of a period of time
24 when I was not employed at Gardner Springs.
25 Q. Do you know about when that time period would
0834
1 have been?
2 A. Yes, I left Gardner sometime in 1985, and I
3 returned in 1990.
4 Q. And so from 1985 to 1990, would you have had
5 more time and opportunity to do research?
6 A. Yes, a lot more.
7 Q. And would that have been a time period that you
8 would have probably traveled more extensively?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And how would you find out about these places
11 and where to go?
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13 chemistry lab?
14 A. Yeah, I'd order from Fisher Scientific, or I'd
15 order from Aldrich, which had a number of items
16 at that time. Sigma had their own section for
17 bringing the stuff in. They were usually
18 pretty easy to order from. You could get it--
19 there's a place called Refinery Supply in
20 Tulsa, which has since gone bankrupt, and you
21 could get any of these items through them.
22 Q. And are there stores, you know, they put out
23 magazines, and you can buy, like, alarm radios.
24 Did these stores put out magazines for what you
25 could buy?
0837
1 A. Large catalogs.
2 Q. So-- I'm try to think of a store-- so the large
3 catalog, would it have pictures or just
4 numbers?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you go to any extra classes or seminars
7 in how to do this?
8 A. We would take classes at the different
9 conferences.
10 Q. And what would-- for instance, like, early on
11 in this period, what would those classes
12 consist of and how would it be taught?
13 A. You'd learn laminar flow technology, which was
14 where you have air flowing across you that goes
15 through a hepa filter so you can have a sterile
16 air situation so you can do spore and then
17 mycelium transfer without contamination on agar
18 agar, agar agar, however you want to
19 pronunciate. This is a standard thing done in
20 labs. I would learn different ways of doing
21 trace mineral and vitamin enhancement of the
22 medias to grow different mycelium networks and
23 different spores.
24 Q. And most of these would be like all
25 conferences, a couple days to a week?
0838
1 A. Yeah.
2 Q. And were you living in a house or apartment
3 during that period of time?
4 A. Both.
5 Q. Did you dedicate, like, some men have a work
6 room they use for their tools?
7 A. No, no.
8 Q. You could just do it anywhere?
9 A. No. I did have a place that was an apartment
10 that I used mainly for doing mycelium work.
11 Q. People that do their own photography have to
12 have a darkroom.
13 A. Yeah, but this was an entire apartment that was
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17 6-fluro-alpha-methyltryptamine.
18 Q. Yes.
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Can you describe for us, was there a different
21 quantity you used earlier on than you did when
22 you were doing the research in the early '90s?
23 A. No. That was a standard amount that I usually
24 use, about 25 milligrams, on myself.
25 Q. And would you--
0845
1 A. Of 5-fluro-alpha-methyltryptamine. The
2 6-fluro-alpha-methyltryptamine has a 15-hour
3 duration and is a little strange, so I did not
4 research much with it because of the duration.
5 As you switch the spot in the given molecular
6 structure, you will increase or decrease
7 duration or potency.
8 Q. Was there a certain duration for the 5 one?
9 A. Yeah, I would say 12 hours, but it would depend
10 on diet and given person.
11 Q. Before you did this, did you read up on what
12 the effects would be or anything?
13 A. Well, I mean, you know, again, the language
14 doesn't even remotely-- especially at that
15 time, you know, they had no-- we still lack
16 logos or a language or a syntax to adequately
17 describe these--
18 Q. How was the effect of the 5 one related to you,
19 if any, before you first tried it?
20 A. Well, hardly anyone had tried it that wrote
21 about it, so all I knew that it was-- it didn't
22 kill, if your diet was all right, and there
23 wasn't much written. I mean, there was one or
24 two lines written about it when I found it.
25 Q. When you first did it, then, was that about the
0846
1 25 milligram level?
2 A. Yes. I'm pretty for sure of that.
3 Q. Do you have to buy these items, or do you have
4 to make that item?
5 A. This item you buy from, I believe, only Sigma
6 at that time carried 5-fluro-alpha-
7 methyltryptamine and 6-fluro-alpha-
8 methyltryptamine.
9 Q. And how did the 5 come into-- like, a glass
10 container?
11 A. Yes, and it said it has to be kept at below
12 zero degrees.
13 Q. And did it come, like, in a big jar or a
14 little--
15 A. No, a small brown container, a brown glass
16 container. It's light sensitive. It's lumen
17 shells can be affected, so it is sensitive to
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18 light.
19 Q. Did you, in purchasing this, have to designate
20 a specific purpose for why you wanted it, or
21 just say give me some 5-what-you-may-call-it?
22 A. I think I said it was the Gardner Industries
23 Mold Inhibitor Division that was buying this.
24 Q. The Gardener Industries Spring Mold Inhibitor
25 Division?
0847
1 A. Yes. We were trying to treat mold that was
2 infesting the shingles of houses, and wood, and
3 benches, and such, so--
4 Q. And was that an actual division, or just what
5 you represented it to them?
6 A. I just represented it. We didn't do any mold
7 inhibitions.
8 Q. And then when the purchase would be made, would
9 you, like, call them up for it or give them a
10 purchase order?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Both?
13 A. Yes. I had account representatives and such.
14 I still have the documentation, if I need to
15 prove it.
16 Q. And did you have to purchase a certain
17 quantity, or did it--
18 A. Yeah, there was definitely-- it would be, like,
19 25 milligrams would be this price, and Sigma
20 has a very steep curve to where the price drops
21 considerably as you buy a larger amount.
22 Q. Like for eggs, most of the time you've got to
23 buy a dozen?
24 A. Yeah, but in this case the price would go way
25 down if you went from 25 milligrams to half a
0848
1 gram.
2 Q. So, naturally, if you were going to continue
3 the research or use of it, you'd want to buy a
4 larger quantity?
5 A. You'd first buy a small quantity to see if you
6 were at all interested, and then you would buy
7 a larger quantity.
8 Q. And in this regard, when you first did this,
9 can you try and describe for me what effect it
10 had physically on you or spiritually?
11 A. Well, I would prefer to describe other things,
12 because this one is a complicated one. I mean,
13 you're, like, going up there to one of those
14 complicated molecules. It just happened to be
15 I hit it early. I'm not trying to be
16 difficult. I would like to start off on the
17 basis of building with simplicity on a--
18 Q. I understand, but just while we're on this one,
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0863
1 initial corresponding to that item?
2 A. That would be the normal street lingo for
3 dimethyltryptamine.
4 Q. Why don't you go ahead to your next example
5 that would help explain this research during
6 this time period?
7 A. This is also going to be a tough example, but
8 the reason I'm going to take it is because it's
9 going to be something I did early on, and this
10 is 14. You can put it up on the screen if you
11 want. This is 5-methoxy-N,N-
12 dimethyltryptamine. Believe it or not, this is
13 the active component within the Sonoran Desert
14 toad, which people talk about licking, which is
15 not correct. If you lick it, you're in
16 trouble. You squeeze the gland onto a
17 microscope slide or some sort of slide, then
18 you let it crystallize, and you then scrape it
19 off. There are some other factions in there
20 and within that. This 5-methoxy-N,N-
21 dimethyltryptamine, this is another unscheduled
22 item, but under the Drug Analog Act, it would
23 be illegal, but I was able to obtain this from
24 Sigma Aldrich.
25 Q. And I was going to get to that. We're talking
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1 about the time period from 1978 to 1990?
2 A. Right, even up until 1995 I was able to obtain
3 that from Sigma Aldrich.
4 Q. And it wasn't illegal to purchase.
5 A. To this day it has not been scheduled by the
6 DEA, but Sigma Aldrich really scrutinizes a
7 purchase order that comes in with this on it.
8 Q. Is this something that you buy, and it's
9 already put together, or do you have to make
10 it?
11 A. No, it comes already as 5-methoxy-N,N-
12 dimethyltryptamine. There are many other
13 natural source for this.
14 Q. Such as?
15 A. Phalaris arundinacea can have both N,N-
16 dimethyltryptamine and 5-methoxy-N,N-
17 dimethyltryptamine. Phalaris arundinacea is
18 commonly known in bird seed or bird feed as
19 reed canary grass. Phalaris aquatica, which is
20 closely related to Phalaris arundinacea, grows
21 in ditches. There's 400 and something
22 varieties of Phalaris arundinacea, 190
23 something varieties of Phalaris aquatica.
24 Grows all over Kansas and the United States.
25 It's everywhere. If they're stressed and you
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6 A. Yes, yes.
7 Q. And again, the purpose and use of this
8 particular one would be to, one, see by itself
9 what it's effects are, and then also compare it
10 to effects you have had with other items since
11 then?
12 A. Yes. But, yeah, but during this peyote
13 research my shift changed quite a bit.
14 Q. Why is that?
15 A. I-- we had a large group of people doing the
16 peyote, and we created this peyote tea, which
17 is you take the roots-- which is a mistake. At
18 the time, they would cut lower in the ground,
19 which was causing a problem with the peyote
20 production, but they didn't know about it. Now
21 they cut up higher so that they regenerate.
22 The plants grow very slowly. We would chop the
23 roots off and boil those, and contrary to all
24 the myths out there, the hair does not have
25 strychnine or anything harmful. You can eat
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1 the fur if you want, which is no use. So you
2 could either peal the white fuzz out, or you
3 can cut it up and use it. We would then eat
4 the peyote and then drink the peyote tea. And
5 when you said easy, this is one of the hardest
6 things you can ever imagine doing. I fasted
7 for two weeks before my first major peyote
8 experience, and I was one of the only two
9 people out of about 16 people that could hold
10 it down, and this is--
11 Q. How many buttons did you have to take first?
12 A. Oh, I mean, I was able to get eight to ten
13 large buttons down, and then I got another 15
14 to 20 buttons down, and I was drinking this tea
15 that originally smelled like potato soup. And
16 I can still smell it to this day, and it was
17 the most foul smell I can imagine. And peyote,
18 once you have eaten it, you will remember it
19 for the rest of your life. It is one of the
20 most disgusting things I've ever eaten.
21 Q. First you ate it, then did you wait for the
22 effect, or--
23 A. No. You just start drinking the tea.
24 Q. How many buttons would have gone into the first
25 mixture of tea?
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1 A. Remember. I said we cut the bottoms of the
2 buttons off, which was the roots.
3 Q. So all 5,000, or just--
4 A. Oh, no, no. Maybe we picked 100 or 200 for the
5 group, and then we would prepare it, and so
6 most of the people underwent projectile
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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA )
) ss:
2 DISTRICT OF KANSAS )
3 C E R T I F I C A T E
4 I, Roxana S. Montgomery, Certified
5 Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of
6 Kansas, do hereby certify that I was present at
7 and reported in machine shorthand the
8 proceedings had the 5th day of February, 2003,
9 in the above-mentioned court; that the
10 foregoing transcript is a true, correct, and
11 complete transcript of the requested
12 proceedings.
13 I further certify that I am not attorney
14 for, nor employed by, nor related to any of the
15 parties or attorneys in this action, nor
16 financially interested in the action.
17 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set
18 my hand and official seal at Topeka, Kansas,
19 this day of , 2003.
20
21
22 Roxana S. Montgomery
23 Certified Shorthand Reporter
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