TRANSCRIPTION OF AUDIO RECORDING INFORMAL APPEARANCE HEARING BEFORE THE STATE COMMISSION ON JUDICIAL CONDUCT THURSDAY, JUNE 10, 2021 coc NOS. 19-1767 AND 19-1878 IN RE: JUDGE PAUL LILLY, COUNTY JUDGE BROWNWOOD, BROWN COUNTY, TEXAS Transcribed by: LuAnn M. Gill, CSR KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com19 20 21 22 23 24 25 APPEARANCES SCUC COMMISSIONERS: Honorable David Hall, Chairman Honorable Valerie Ertz Honorable Clifton Roberson Honorable Ron Bunch Honorable Janis Holt Honorable Sujeeth Draksharam Honorable Fred Tate Honorable David Schenck Honorable Pat Maguire FOR FOR THE STATE COMMISSION ON JUDICIAL CONDUCT: Mr. Phil Robertson P.O. Box 12265 Austin, Texas 78711 Phone: (512) 463-5533 - Fax: (512) 463-0511 Email: phil.robertson@sejc.texas.gov JUDGE PAUL LILLY: Mr. Jon Mark Hogg JACKSON WALKER, LLP 136 W. Twohig Avenue Suite B San Angelo, Texas 76903 Phone: (325) 481-2550 KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 an 13 14 15 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (audio recording begins) CHAIRMAN HALL: Good afternoon, everyone. Today is Thursday, June the 10th, 2021. My name is David Hall. I'm the Chairman of the State Commission on Judicial Conduct. I'm also a court-at-law judge from Sweetwater. We are here today on CJC Nos. 19-1160 and 19-1291 UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Those are the wrong numbers, Judge. CHAIRMAN HALL: Oh UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Let me make sure you've got the right ones. I'm sorry about that. CHAIRMAN HALL: That's all right. 19-1767 and 19-1878, both concerning Judge Paul Lilly, County Judge, Brownwood, Brown County, Texas. Judge Lilly, I'm going to invite the Commission members to introduce themselves for the record, beginning on the right with Commissioner Brtz. COMMISSIONER ERTZ: Yes. I'm Valerie Ertz, a public member from Dallas. COMMISSIONER ROBERSON: Judge, Clifton Roberson, attorney, Smith County. COMMISSIONER BUNCH: Hello. I'm Ron Bunch, a lawyer from Waxahachie. KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 1. 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 19 20 22 23 24 25 COMMISSIONER HOLT: Good afternoon. I'm Janice Holt, public member from Silsbee. COMMISSIONER DRAKSHARAM: Good afternoon, Judge. Sujeeth Draksharam, public member, Sugar Land. COMMISSIONER TAT! Good afternoon. Fred Tate, public member, Colleyville. COMMISSIONER SCHENCK: Good afternoon, Judge I'm David Schenck (audio distortion). COMMISSIONER MAGUIRE: Good afternoon, Judge. I'm Pat Maguire, municipal judge from Kerrville, Texas CHAIRMAN HALL: Judge Lilly, would you please briefly identify yourself for the record? JUDGE LILLY: My name is Dr. Paul Lilly, and I'm first term County Judge here in Brown County, Brownwood, right in the geographic dead center in the state. CHAIRMAN HALL: Judge, I don't know if this is possible for you to do, but could you turn up the volume on your microphone just a little bit? And I'll even -- I think I can help you do that. Are you on a laptop, Judge? JUDGE LILLY: Is this any better? CHAIRMAN HALL: That's a little better, yes, sir. Judge, you do have a right to be presented by KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 an 32 13 14 15 16 47 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 counsel today, and I know that you do have counsel present. Counsel, would you please state your name for the record. MR. HOGG: Yes, Your Honor. My name is Jon Mark Hogg, and I'm a lawyer in San Angelo, Texas. CHAIRMAN HALL: And, Counsel, you're advised you can consult with Judge Lilly at any time that you wish to during the Zoom hearing. We can even put you in a breakout room if you need to speak privately. You may ask -- you'll be given an opportunity to ask questions of Judge Lilly after the Commission members have had an opportunity to ask their questions. You're cautioned not to present testimony yourself, but you'll be given an opportunity to make a closing statement at the conclusion of the hearing, if you would like. MR. HOGG: Okay. CHAIRMAN HALL: Judge Lilly, is anyone else present for the hearing today at your invitation? JUDGE LILLY: No, sir. CHAIRMAN HALL: And you were also provided additional written instructions concerning this proceeding. Have you had an opportunity to read through those? JUDGE LILLY: No. ‘To be honest, I only had KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 12 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the opportunity to glance at them because of my medical condition. I wasn't even certain I was going to be able to be here today; but I made every effort, and unless I fall out of my chair, I ask your forgiveness. I am here. But, no, sir, I have not had a chance to look at them as thoroughly as I would have liked to have, but I have read over them CHAIRMAN HALL: Mr. Hogg, are you satisfied that the judge can be -- additional written instructions that were given in this case can be properly followed by Judge Lilly? MR. HOGG: I believe so. CHAIRMAN HALL: Judge Lilly, in anticipation of any testimony you may give in this case today, would you please raise your right hand. JUDGE LILLY: Sure. And I want to make sure that y'all can hear me okay still. I was doing some adjustments on the microphone. CHAIRMAN HALL: We can hear you. And, Judge, do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you God? JUDGE LILLY: I do, yes, sir. CHAIRMAN HALL: Judge, I'm going to turn the matter over now to Commission Counsel, Phil Robertson. KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com13 14 1s 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2s MR. ROBERTSON: Thank you. JUDGE PAUL LILLY, having been first duly sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBERTSON: Q. And good afternoon, Judge Lilly. Axe you able to hear me well? A. Mr. Robertson, I can hear you very well. Thank you. Q. All right. MR. ROBERTSON: And, Mr. Hogg, thank you for being here as well. Are you able to hear me? MR. HOGG: Yes, sir. MR. ROBERTSON: All right. Q. (BY MR. ROBERTSON) Judge Lilly, do you have a copy of the tentative sanction there with you? A. Not in front of me, no, sir, but I have -- that one I have read very well, yes, sir. Q. What I'd like to do in just a moment is to ask -- there we go -- Mr. Bennett to put that up. Are you able to see that on your screen? A. Iam, yes, sir. Q. Good. We'll roll down to the findings of fact, and wnat I'd like to do is to go through those with you in just a moment. KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 a. 12 13 14 15 16 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 First though, Judge, let me ask: You were able to receive a copy of the two complaints that were the subject of this tentative sanction. Is that right? A. Yes, sir. Q. And you had an opportunity to respond in writing to both of those complaints. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir, I -- again, T -- and I ask in advance for -- I offer my apology to the Court, to the Commission. I'm in the middle of having a quadruple bypass since this happened, and then I just had to have another major surgery just less than ten days ago. So my memory is a but fuzzy, but I do remember reading over the complaint; and Mr. Hogg has handled it, has walked me through it and made sure that I understood the allegations that were made and all, so I can answer that, yes, sir. Q. All right. Thank you, Judge Judge, let's look, if you will, at the findings of fact that you see there on your screen. ‘Those are the findings that were made tentatively by the Commission in its tentative public warning. And, Judge, what I'd like to do is just to list off those particular findings for you. I'll just refer to them by number. If you will read them to yourself. And then all we need to hear from you is whether that finding is correct or you agree with it; or KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 cee 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 2. 23 24 25 if you disagree with it, if you would tell us why you disagree with it. So first one is simple enough. If you would, look at that and tell us whether you agree or disagree and why A. Yes, I agree with No. 1. No. 2 Finding of Fact? A. It depends on what judicial duties we're referring to. I no longer have any criminal judicial authority, but I do handle -- I do still handle probates and guardianship. Q. All right, sir. Finding of Fact No. 3? A. Yes, sir, I'm still a volunteer policeman. Q. Finding of Fact No. 4? A. Yes, sir. Q. Finding of Fact No. 5? A. That would be more of an answer for the county attorney, but I do believe that is correct, yes, sir. Q. Finding of Fact No. 6? A. I don't believe I set the bonds on Mr. Carter's case. And, again, this was over two years ago, so I'm having to remember. I don't remember that I had anything to do with the bond that was set on Mr. Carter's case. Q. All right, sir. Finding of Fact No. 7? A. No, I did not order a no bail that I recall on KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 11 12 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 10 Mr. Carter's. As a matter fact, I wasn't even aware that Mr. Carter was in custody until I received a letter that he mailed directly to the Court. Q. All right, sir. Anything else about that particular finding of fact? A. We're on No. 7 still? Q. Right, still on 7. Anything else about that one? A. Well, if I -- and, again, I'm going off memory before everything that I've been through in the last 18 months; but if I recall, he was being held on no bail in another county for felony charges in addition to the charge that the county attorney had filed against him here. And all those happened before I became judge, but, of course, it came with the court once I took the bench here. But I don't believe -- I believe the first time -- other than that, I believe that's all I can say about it. I'm sorry. Again, I'm going off memory. Q. All right, sir. Let's look at Finding of Fact No. 8. A. Mr. Carter's confinement. No, I don't recall issuing a no bail order for Mz. Carter. I believe he was in jail -- he was in jail in another county without bond. There was no bond on the charges that he was there on. So once we found out he was in their custody, there was no urgency on the part of our county attorney to take any KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 a1 22 23 24 25 action on it because he wasn’t eligible for bail there. And prior, like I said, mentioned a few minutes earlier, prior to receiving a handwritten letter from him that he mailed directly to my court, I wasn't even aware that he was in custody. Q. All right, sir. Let's see. Finding of Fact No. 9? A. Yes. As I understand it, the maximum that he -- if he had entered -- if he had entered a plea of guilty or was found guilty, the maximum he could receive would have been 180 days in jail. And if I recall, part of Mr. Cooksey's complaint was that I made a notation to myself of that on the docket sheet. Being a new judge, I made a note so that I would know where to see it next time. But I understand Mr. Cooksey interpreted that as something far more extravagant than -- actually all it was, was a simple note to myself. Q. And Finding of Fact No. 10, Judge. A. Yes, I had a very quick telephone conversation with him, and this -- now or later, I can explain to you the reason for that, but I don't disagree with it. It's just I want to make sure that it's understood that it was an extremely short conversation just simply to get -- he wasn't represented by an attorney, so I had no one else to KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 21 22 23 24 25 12 contact other than him directly. Q. All right, sir. Judge, that concludes our look at the findings of fact. Judge, let me ask you this: For the benefit of the Commission, would you tell the Commission, please, six, what you would like for it to do at the end of the hearing today. What result would you ask? A. Well, I want to comply with what the Commission recommended. I did complete the additional training, and I went ahead and completed the additional training in criminal matters as well even though I no longer hear cximinal cases. We're very fortunate in Brown County in that we have a county court-at-law that has concurrent misdemeanor and felony jurisdiction in th @ way that the court was created. And so I visited quite sometime ago with Judge Moss, and he has taken over all of my criminal cases. I didn't get many. Our county attorney didn't file many in my court anyway; I would say six to nine over the last twelve months prior to COVID hitting. So I asked him that he would take on all those, and I completely absolved myself of anything whatsoever to do with any kind of criminal case. I don't issue search warrants. I don't review warrants, arrest warrants, nothing whatsoever to do with criminal cases any longer just to avoid any -- any KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com210 a 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 appearance of any kind of conflict. I went as far above and beyond as I could possibly find to help the Court in future appearances and conflicts. I'm sorry. Forgive me. I may be a little long-winded today too. I'm still on some medicine. For the benefit of the Court, in case you see me leaning a little bit, I had a surgery from the top of my back to the bottom just less than two weeks ago, so I made every effort to be able to be here with you because 1 didn't want to have to request a reschedule. The last time I couldn't be here with you because I just -- prior before I had a heart attack and had to have a quadruple bypass, so my health hasn't been great over the last 18 months, and for that I sincerely apologize. I know your time is very valuable Q. Thank you, Judge. MR. ROBERTSON: Judge Hall, I believe that's all I have right now. CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you. Judge, I'm going to invite the Commission members to ask any questions that they may have. Commissioner Brtz COMMISSIONER ERTZ: Judge, no questions at this time. Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No questions at KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 ut 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 this time. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No questions. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: No questions. ‘Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Judge, I don't have any questions right now. Thank you. JUDGE LILLY: If y'all ask me something, there's a little time delay, so if I don’t answer immediately, I'm not being disrespectful, there's just a little gap in time. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKE! : I have no questions, Judge. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I have no questions. Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I do understand the connect. Are you able to hear me? JUDGE LILLY: I am, yes, sir. UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: Okay. I'm just trying to get a sense how big the gap is. Pretty big, evidently. I don't have any questions. I thank you for joining us here today. JUDGE LILLY: Well, and, again, my sincere apologies that I had to request a continuance from last time. I would preferred to -- I'm like each of you. I like to handle things very promptly and succinctly, but a KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 enforcement prior to becoming elected as a county judge? A. Well, I've been judge for two and a half years, and I had 30. I'm at my 33rd year in law enforcement so altogether. Q. All right. Now, could you describe for the members of the Commission what exactly, if anything, you have done as a reserve peace officer for Hood County during your time as county jail? A. Well, I've actually -- since I became county judge, I believe I've worked -- I was over there two times, and that was it in two and a half years Again, that is my home town, and I love to volunteer. And when we say "reserve," I hope the Commission understands that means that I don't -- I don't accept and not paid a dime for my services. I'm just like a police volunteer. And, you know, I hope some day when my time is concluded as judge to be able to return to law enforcement. Public safety is my chosen profession. You know, I never aspired to be a county judge. It just kind of happened where they needed me in this position at this time, and I accepted and that -- that's -- as fate had it, I was elected. But eventually I hope to return to the world of academia. My preference is teaching law enforcement either at the academy level or teaching like I did before KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 wy I was elected judge as an associate professor. So that's where my passion and my heart and my desires lie. So, yes, sir, I do volunteer for my home town, I have for many, many years, absolutely free of service And now since I made certain that there were no potential conflicts -- or do you want me to hold on? Do you want me to go and talk about the other or hold off until you ask? Q. All right. What I really want to know is you testified that you served or you actually performed as a reserve deputy at Hood County twice since you were elected as county judge. Is that correct? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the Commission what that service entailed? What did you actually do -- A. Sure. I rode out on patrol on two 8-hour shifts to try to learn the computer process and all that -- the operational aspects of the sheriff's office so I'm familiar with it. And that was -- so 16 hours total about two and a half years ago. Q. Okay. Is that -- have you served at any other time? A. Not for Hood County, no, sir. Q. Okay. And is it your understanding that in order KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 an 12 13 14 as 16 18 1 20 21 22 23 24 25 1g to maintain your -- to maintain a license as a peace officer that has to be carried by a department? A. It does, otherwise I'll lose my license, It will eventually become dormant, and I'd have to go back to the police academy again to become licensed. Q. Have you -- have you arrested anyone on behalf while serving as a reserve county for the Hood County Sheriff's Department? A. Oh, absolutely not. Q. Okay. Have you engaged in active patrol -- other than your training session that you mentioned earlier, have you engaged in any sort of active patrol on behalf of Hood County Sheriff's Department? A. I have not. @. All right. And have you appeared in court as a witness in any criminal matter or civil matter that arose out of any service as a reserve deputy for the Hood County (audio distortion). A, I have not, no, sir. Q. All right. And how long has it been since you actually did any duty as a reserve county deputy? A. For Hood County? Q. Yes, sir. A. Over two years, probably close to two and a half years ago. KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com17 18 19 20 a1 22 23 24 25 19 Q. And just so we can make sure we're all interested in talking about the same geography -- A, Let me go back. Let me change that back. Year anda half. I'm sorry. It was before my heart attack Q. That's okay A. WR year and a half, I guess. And, again, I apologize. There's a little delay. If I speak over you, it's unintentional. Q Is there any requirement for the sheriff to hold -- for Hood County to hold your license as a peace officer as a reserve deputy for you to perform a certain number of hours on behalf of Hood County? A. No. It's highly recommended. What I try to do for the sheriff -- I haven't had the opportunity because of my health, but being that I also hold a doctorate in advanced law enforcement instructor, what I prefer to do to help them out, you know, volunteer capacity, is to teach in-service training to other deputies. I haven't had the opportunity to do that, but that's my target. Q. Okay. Your plan would be to teach classes for in-service education at the Hood County Sheriff's Department? A. Yes, sir. I haven't had -- like I said, I haven't had the opportunity I didn't have because of my health. Eventually I hope to be able to do that again KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 qa 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 19 20 ai 22 23 24 25 23 (No response) A. It was -- I want to say -- if I had to put a date on it, I would say around October or so of last year. Q. (BY MR. ROBERTSON) All right, sir. Judge, do you know if there's a -- any written order or anything that the Commission could refer to regarding the assignment of criminal cases to the county court or county court -at-law? A. All I -- T had a oral agreement with our county court-at-law judge, Judge Moss. He's in the office right above me. But my county court administrator did transfer, went into our county court system and -- which I don't even have a password to get into it. Matter of fact, I can't even access that, the criminal court system. And she made certain that -- she worked with the court coordinator for the county court-at-law case and made certain that all the cases -- all the criminal cases were transferred. And, again, I believe there were only a handful that were pending. We didn't have many in our court anyway. But whether or not there is a written document of those being transferred or if it's electronic, I can't answer because, again, I don’t even have access to the criminal court system, and I did that intentionally. I don't even have a password or a user name to log on to that system. KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 1 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 24 @. Thank you, Judge Lilly. MR, ROBERTSON: Judge Hall, I believe that's all I have. CHAIRMAN HALL: Mr. Hogg, any other questions for Judge Lilly? MR. HOGG: Yes. And T would like just a little bit of clarification. I didn't know if we were going to deal with these cases one at a time or all together because I do have some questions related to the other, the 1878 charge. CHAIRMAN HALL: You may go ahead and ask questions about both of these matters. MR. HOGG: Okay. All right. Thank you, Your Honor. RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HOGG: Q. Judge Lilly, just dealing with the San Saba question and your service as a -- for San Saba, is it your understanding that you have to -- in order for you to perform in-service training for a department that you have to be -- have to hold a license with that department? A. Or you have to be licensed through the regional academy (audio distortion). That's my understanding. Q. Are you licensed through the regional academy? A. I hold an instructor's license. But, no, the KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 un 12 13 20 21 22 23 24 25 25 Sheriff Jenkins in San Saba holds my commission, so I just stopped there Q. Have you performed any service, doing any patrol for the San Saba County Sheriff's Department? A, Since I -- since I devolved myself of anything, of any potential conflict criminalwise, yes, sir, I did help with a large musical event that they had not long ago. @. Okay. And what did you do for that, just security? A. dust watching cars in the parking lot, yes, sir. Q. Okay. A. And I left there and went out and had the -- unfortunately had to dispatch an injured deer. That was the highlight of my evening, something that I really prefer never to have to do. Q. Have you -- what I mean by patrol more is taking a regular patrol around the county as an active deputy. Have you ever done that for San Saba County? A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. If they need me, I'm available to them. It takes me quite sometime to get there, and they understand that so they haven't called on me. Q. Okay. Well, that's -- that wasn't exactly my question. My question is: Have you actually served? KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 an 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 A. I have gone out, yes, on patrol because I can't understand how the department operates and what is -- especially in today's climate with regard to policies and procedures and all unless I'm familiar with how the department operates. So, yes, I have gone out with -- (Simultaneous discussion) Q. Have you made any arrests while serving as a deputy? A. Absolutely not, no, sir. Q. Okay. Have you testified in court in any -- on anything related to your volunteer at San Saba Sheriff's Department? A. No, sir Q. How -- how often have you done this for San Saba? A. I believe twice. Q. And -- A And I will add that everyone else at that musical event that I helped work at was paid. I volunteered my time so... Q. Okay. Did -- so you have actually taught a class there, though? One of those events was teaching a class? A. I did, yes, sir. Q. All right. And was the patrol that you participated in sort of like the patrol you described of the Hood County and the learning of process and KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 a 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 27 procedures? A. Very much so. I can't -- there's a new supervisor course coming up that they want me to teach, and I can't very well teach a new supervisor course if I don't understand the general operations of the agency. Q. So the activity that you did was related to your hopes and plans to assist teaching courses to peace officers in the department. Is that correct? A. Yes, sir. Q. All right, sir. Now, I would like to turn our attention to the issue related to Mr. Carter's probation revocation. And you described this briefly, but, in your examination from Mr. Robertson, but do you recall -- could you just explain to the whole Court how you became -- how you first became aware that Mr. Carter was requesting some action to be taken on his motion to revoke? A. Sure. And if I may, IT have to elaborate a bit, and this is difficult for me to do. I want to state that up front, because I've had a change in personnel largely -- a large part because of issues like this that I was having. I stumbled across while my court coordinator was away. I forget why she wasn't here that day. But I stumbled across a letter that was written to my court by Mr. Carter, and it had been post dated -- it was quite KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com20 al 22 23 24 25 28 sometime. I want to say 30 to 45 days. I had not been made aware of that letter. I didn’t know it existed until I stumbled across it. And I found it and quite a few other issues, unpaid bills, and some other things that caused me quite some concern. But that is how I learned that Mr. Carter was being held in another county and that he requested -- in his handwritten letter he had requested -- and the letter was addressed to me, to the Court -- he had requested to enter a plea and to accept -- if the county attorney would agree to time served I tried to,locate the county attorney to see if the county attorney had also received that letter. And, again, this is very difficult for me to say because he's a super nice fellow, our county attorney, but trying to locate him is a very difficult task. And I wasn't able to find him that day, and I didn't want Mr. Carter to continue to sit in jail and think that we had ignored him in his letter or his petition to the Court. So I didn't have a court coordinator, there was no attorney appointed for Mr. Carter at his request, and I could not locate our county attorney, and at that time we did not have an assistant county attorney. Since then -- I will make a note here that since then I've urged the county attorney to hire an assistant county attorney, and he finally has so he has KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 29 some additional staff up there. So now if I needed someone from the county attorney's office, there's an excellent chance that I can get them on the telephone. That wasn't the case back then. So to answer your question, after having gone through those and trying to find any kind of intermediary to make contact on my behalf or to -- in that avenue, placed a call down to the jail that he was being held in, and I asked the -- I made sure that the jailer on duty knew who I was. I identified myself and that I called from an official county line here, and I asked him if I could speak with Mr. Carter for just a moment. They went and pulled him out. I made sure Mr. Carter -- again, he had no attorney representing him at his request. He did not want a court-appointed attorney. And I informed him that I had just now been made aware of his letter and was just now made aware that he was still in jail and would he like to -- would he still like to be brought back up to Brown County to speak with our county attorney about a possible plea bargain, at which time he said yes. And that was the whole extent of that conversation. It was very succinct, very quick. And after that time, I contacted the sheriff and I requested that Mr. Carter be brought back to Brown County. A few days later, I was finally able to reach KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 30 — the county attorney, and I briefed him that Mr. Carter was being brought back. Q. Did the county attorney make any objection to his being brought back? A. None whatsoever. Q. All right. Did -- now when the -- there's an indication when the motion to revoke was initially filed and there was a warrant issued, in essence, for Mr. Carter's arrest based on that motion to revoke that indicated no bail. Can you describe for the ladies and gentlemen of the Commission what that was based on? Was that a recommendation from the county attorney? Or how did that come about? A. I don't remember specifically, but I -- T can't imagine that I would do -- I've never done a no bail without the recommendation of the county attorney. But this specific case I do not remember specifically, and I apologize for that. I've been through a lot since then Q. Okay. MR. HOGG: I'll pass the witness. I'm not sure if Mr. Robertson heard me. MR. ROBERTSON: I heard. I was waiting for Judge Hall. JUDGE LILLY: Sorry. Again, I apologize There's about a ten second -- five to ten second time KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 a. 32 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 31 delay. CHAIRMAN HALL: I had my microphone muted. Any other questions, Mr. Robertson? MR. ROBERTSON: No, Your Honor. CHAIRMAN HALL: Any other questions from commissioners? UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I do have one that I wanted to ask. CHAIRMAN HALL: David, will you turn your microphone on? COMMISSIONER SCHENCK: Sure. EXAMINATION BY COMMISSIONER SCHENCK: Q. Dr. Lilly, you, or Judge Lilly, you said you contacted the Commission on Judicial Conduct and they advised or you were advised that since your law -- your -- let's see, what we used to call it -- your commission was in another county that you could continue to operate as a county judge in your county. Is that correct? A. I did contact the Commission long before I even ran for office, before I filed for the office to see if that would be a conflict because I would have never sought the office of county judge, to be honest. This is not my career goal. I'm here because (audio distortion). Sorry -- KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 a 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 32 (Simultaneous discussion) A. I don't remember who I spoke with. Yes, sir, that's where I was going. I don't remember who I spoke with. And that would have been almost three years ago now. And I do apologize. It's when I was asked if I would consider running for the office, I wanted to make certain that there would be no conflict. And I did -- was able to pull up the -- JUDGE LILLY: Mr. Hogg, help me explain what that directive is. What is it called again? MR. HOGG: The public statement. A. The public statement. I was able to pull that up. But when I read that, and I apologize if I misunderstood it, but based on the telephone call that I had that day and my reading of it, I was under the impression that that was for state judges that -- who would have jurisdiction outside of the county that they had judicial authority in. So I interpreted that as having -- since my commission -- my law enforcement commission was 95 miles away from my Brown County that there wouldn't be any conflict. Hindsight, IT probably should have asked for a written letter, but at the time T was new to this whole profession and as far as judicial duties, and I didn't want to be a burden to anyone, quite honestly. That's not my personality. I just wanted to KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 12 12 13 14 1s 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 33 make sure that T could continue to donate my time. Being a volunteer policeman is my heart and soul. It's what T love doing. I love that more than just about anything else. In that line of duty, I've been shot, I've been stabbed, I've been run over, I've had my back broken, I've had all my I've had facial reconstruction because of a catastrophic injury all while serving as a volunteer, not even being a paid officer. It's just -- that's where my heart and soul is. That's where my dedication is, and T wanted to make certain that there wasn't going to be any kind of conflict. And I'm sorry if I get emotional about it, but it brings up a lot of memories. CHAIRMAN HALL: Any other questions? Mr. Hogg, if you would like to, or the Judge, would like to make a brief closing statement. It's also -- I think everyone's interested in knowing exactly what Judge Lilly is asking us to do today. MR. HOGG: Yes, Your Honor. I don't really have a brief closing argument. What I would direct the Commission to as to any essence of a closing argument that I would make is contained within the Motion to Dismiss that we submitted to the consideration of the Commission. What -- the biggest concern that you can really tell from the judge is whether or not -- how he KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com10 11 12 13 14 is 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 34 deals with this issue of the license -- being able to maintain his license as a peace officer but also continue to serve as the judge. And I understand the public statement, and this is essentially what I set out in the motion, is that the purpose of the public statement is obviously clear. You can't -- you can't go back to the Andy Griffith mode of being the sheriff and the JP at the same time. But I think what the rule is intended and what that ruling -- the public statement guides people in is in the service itself. And I think just -- I do not read that as a blanket statement that because you hold a peace officer's license and because you're a judge that that isn't automatically preclusive and a violation of that. I think there needs to be a very fact-intense analysis, which is why we went into the facts of his actual service and what he's actually done for those agencies. To that extent, what we are asking today -- the Judge has gone ahead and attended additional training, all the additional training that he was able to do during the time. Based upon that, we would just ask the Commission to dismiss the complaint. If the Commission feels that there is -- that not all the training has been done, he is certainly willing to go do that. As we indicated, there are some political issues that kind of -- that arise in this. We understand KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com13 14 15 16 aq 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 35 that that doesn't -- it's local political issues in Brown County as set out in the motion to dismiss. We bring that not up as an excuse but just as way of background information, that we question the motives of the complaint more for political reasons than from -- there was not a complaint made related to Mr. Carter from -- Mr. Carter never made a compliant to the Commission, it was Mr. Cooksey, who has already declared his intent to run against Judge Lilly in the next Republican primary. That's all I have to say, Your Honor. Thank you very much. CHAIRMAN HALL: Thank you, Mr. Hogg. Thank you, Judge Lilly. I£ there's nothing else from the Commission, Commissioners or Counsel, then we'll end the hearing now. Judge Lilly and Mr. Hogg, we'll deliberate and then Commission Counsel will make you aware of the determination we reach today. Thank you-all for being present. Judge Lilly, I appreciate your appearance today especially considering the obvious difficulty, medical difficulties you had recently, and so thank you again for being available to -- JUDGE LILLY: Please accept my apologies as far as getting emotional. That's part of the medication KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com36 1]I'mon. I hope -- CHAIRMAN HALL: That's not necessary to 3 | apologize. We're, again, grateful for you to be available 4|to us. Thank y'all and we'll end the Zoom hearing, so it 5 | will kind of hang up abruptly in just a moment. 6 Thank y'all again. Good-bye. 7 (Audio proceedings concluded) 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 1s 20 21 22 23 24 25 KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com” 10 az 13 14 us 22 23 24 25 37 THE STATE OF TEXAS ) COUNTY OF TRAVIS ) I, LuAnn M. Gill, Certified Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, do hereby certify that the foregoing is a correct transcription, to the best of my ability, from the audio recording of the proceedings in the above-entitled matter. I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither counsel for, xelated to, nor employed by any of the parties or attorneys in the action in which this proceeding was taken, and further that I am not financially or otherwise interested in the outcome of the action. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and seal this 30th day of July, 2021 LuAnn MW. Gill, CSR CSR No. 2537 - Expires: 4/30/2023 Firm Registration No. 276 Kennedy Reporting Services, Inc. 555 Round Rock West Drive Building E, Suite 202 Round Rock, Texas 78681 §12.474,2233 KENNEDY REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 512.474.2233 order@kennedyreporting.com