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Entrevista A Robert Dahl
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Robert A. Dahl1 and Margaret Levi2
1
Department of Political Science, Yale University, New Haven, Connecticut 06520;
email: robert.dahl@yale.edu
2
Department of Political Science, University of Washington, Seattle, Washington 98195;
Annu. Rev. Polit. Sci. 2009.12:1-9. Downloaded from www.annualreviews.org
email: mlevi@u.washington.edu
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1
ANRV377-PL12-01 ARI 2 May 2009 12:5
Margaret Levi: Bob, maybe you could tell us radical and an advocate of unions and so on, I
a little bit about your history and how you got felt that they needed to be organized. And then
into political science, and some of the things in due time, they did indeed get organized, and
that you did before you became a political one of the first things that they did, quite prop-
scientist. erly, was to turn it into a year-round job, and
Robert Dahl: Certainly. I don’t know how [laughing] I was no longer able to work on the
much of that you want me to narrate; I can go docks.
on endlessly, as my children and grandchildren
ML: And you were quite a young man when
have learned. I grew up in this little town
you were doing that—twelve or. . .
in southeastern Alaska. I worked summers,
partly to help pay my way through college and RD: Yeah, I started out at the age of twelve,
then later graduate school, where I came into which of course is totally illegal now. But I was
contact with of course the local people whom big and strong, so it wasn’t really a problem. It
I already knew, but also on the docks, people was an important part of my life.
whom I didn’t know, working people, and that
ML: And it informed your work later, I take it.
exposed me to an aspect of life which I’ve never
forgotten. RD: It did. That and my military service, and
growing up in a small town, just gave me a
ML: So you were involved with the Interna-
very deep and lasting respect for—what is often
tional Longshore and Warehouse Union before
said, “ordinary people.” I don’t like that term.
it became that.
But just plain ordinary human beings. I respect
RD: . . . before it became that, and, partly be- them for, among other things, they’ve got de-
cause I was a Norman Thomas socialist and a grees of common sense which are not always so
2 Dahl · Levi
ANRV377-PL12-01 ARI 2 May 2009 12:5
RD: Yes, it influenced it in the sense that that RD: Well, thank you.
kind of abstract thinking and models, while I
felt they often bore too little relation to the ML: So, Ken Arrow and you started to talk, and
reality and the complexity of economic life, he was of course working on issues of demo-
they provided a degree of rigor. Political sys- cratic theory in a sense at that time, right, his
tems are I think more complicated than eco- book had just come out.
nomics, and political behavior is more com-
RD: So I was influenced by that as a model, a
plicated than economic behavior; nevertheless,
way of thinking more abstractly, perhaps, than
economics provided the kind of model or hope
customary, about democratic theory. Making
of a model that we could make use of for in-
clear the premises, the epistomological assump-
creased rigor in political science.
tions and matters of that kind, and I think that
ML: There’s also a deductive quality in your sort of set the stage. And then once you get in of
thinking about democracy, as well as a concern course, into that field, which was not highly—
Annu. Rev. Polit. Sci. 2009.12:1-9. Downloaded from www.annualreviews.org
about thinking about how it fits with reality. I don’t know how to put this properly—as a
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ML: Another former President of APSA. ML: Your own work on democracy evolves over
time, right? Maybe you could talk a little bit
RD: Right. That came up with the idea. And about the kinds of criticism that you got and
then helped get money from the Rockefeller how you responded to that, because your work
Foundation to develop it. really did just keep going with the times.
ML: You know I’m the current chair of the RD: It did. I helped form this group on the
board of the Center for Advanced Study. smaller European democracies, with people like
RD: [laughing]: Yes, you are, yes, oh my yes! a good friend of mine, Val Lorwin, who had
I’m very proud of that, having made what small studied Belgium, and Stein Rokkan, who stud-
contribution I did. ied Scandinavian democracies. Stein and I were
walking down the streets of San Francisco—he
ML: You made a big contribution. was out at the Center one afternoon or evening,
4 Dahl · Levi
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and he said or I said or we both agreed in- ML: I think the term democracy itself has be-
stantaneously, “We need more studies of these come more of a continuum than just an ideal
smaller European democracies which are so lit- state.
tle known, even among scholars in those coun-
RD: I agree. And a number of people of course
tries themselves.” Or in some of them, like
have (even I’ve made my stab at it) attempted to
Sweden (less so at the time in Norway, but it had
develop a scale that I think very helpful, not to
a strong tradition there)—not much studying by
oversimplify it, but to be able to array the coun-
their own scholars. And we agreed that some-
tries of the world on a 10-point scale from the
thing should be done, and so we raised money
most democratic, with the democratic ideal be-
and began to invite people to contribute to what
yond that, those that are above a certain thresh-
first became a series of essays on the smaller
old the most democratic, and array them along
European democracies, and then volumes! And
a line to the least democratic. That’s very useful.
now it goes on and on, as the number of smaller
democracies around the world increases, so it’s ML: Now, one of the things that William Riker
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a whole rich new gigantic field. did, he looked at the various notions of democ-
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business firms. Well, my own optimistic per- a bias toward seeing diversity or plurality, and
spective on that never prevailed, but I had that would be a fair criticism. But once you be-
hoped [laughing] . . . gin looking for it in a country like the United
States, or even in a place like New Haven, you
ML [laughing]: And much less so today than
begin to see it, starting with our ethnic diversity
you think . . .
for example. And I found at that time that that,
RD: And less so today. Business has become I wouldn’t say dominant but very powerful ten-
more and more oligarchical, don’t you think? dency to want to see this as somehow simplified
was too simplified.
ML: I think that’s true. Well, when I was an un-
dergraduate and a graduate student, I was part ML: So you weren’t just responding to the Ital-
of a group of people who were quite critical of ians, not just to Mosca and Pareto, but also to
“the pluralists.” Right? Now, you were consid- C. Wright Mills and Floyd Hunter and the
ered a pluralist. whole community power elite structure.
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RD: I was indeed, yes. RD: I was, yes. I did. I have great respect for
C. Wright Mills (I didn’t have that much re-
ML: Do you think that’s a term that still has
spect for Floyd Hunter’s work), but, I felt it
meaning today?
was too simple. Just too simplified a view of
RD: Well, I think the core of the meaning is ob- politics . . . . You could array countries around
serving some political systems and seeing that— the world, as one of my students and later fel-
well, let me go back into the history. I was re- low scholars did, you could array them along a
acting to what seemed to me the oversimplified scale from those that were highly authoritarian
view of some, including the famous Italian the- to those that were nonauthoritarian . . .
orists, about the ruling class. I began, and then
ML: This is where your work on democracy and
my experience in Washington as an intern later
on power really sort of come together, right, in
fortified that, I began to see the ruling class as
thinking about what a democracy is, that it has
pluralistic in many countries, and as it turned
to have at least some pluralist element.
out, in more and more countries—meaning by
that that it was not a single homogeneous group RD: Yes.
of people (men, they would be) with a common
unifying interest, but that there was more diver- ML: Now, the concept of power is another
sity there. That’s not exactly the same as democ- thing in which you have clearly been a leader,
racy, but it means that if you have democratic and it comes out in the book Who Governs?, and
institutions, they’re going to be more pluralis- it produced again an interesting argument. It
tic in the sense that wider groups are going to was a major controversy . . . I took a seminar, as
be participating. I mentioned to you, with Peter Bachrach when
I was an undergraduate at Bryn Mawr, which
ML: And that’s part of what’s behind Who was on power, and of course, he was one of your
Governs?, right? major critics. But that was a very lively debate
in the 1960s and well into the 1970s. Perhaps
RD: And that’s part of what’s behind Who
you could tell us a little bit about that debate
Governs?. I can remember sort of beginning to
and what’s happened with the way of thinking
think about this while I was at the Center and af-
about power.
terwards, where I’d done a lot of thinking about
this, talking about it, saying that, well, maybe RD: There was then a dominant, rather sim-
I’d better take a look at some concrete, actu- plified view of power. And what I think opened
ally existing political system and see what’s out up was a realization of its complexities—how
there. Of course you can argue that I began with did you define its characteristic qualities—and
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ANRV377-PL12-01 ARI 2 May 2009 12:5
of political regimes as being much more diverse by responding to the elitists, but then you had
in the distribution of power. And also, then, the to deal with the neo-elitists.
more serious attempt to figure out how to go
RD: I guess that I continued to see politics and
about observing and measuring it. That . . .
political life, life in Washington, as I say both
ML: That’s really crucial. living there and working there and so on, and af-
terwards, as more complex than I felt many ob-
RD: That was really crucial. You can talk about servers, who were sometimes a bit distant from
it in the abstract, as the Italian theorists tended it all, did. Even when I worked in Washington
to do . . . but then you need to get out in the during wartime with the War Production
world and study it. How do you do that? What Board, I found that its decisions were a bit more
kind of methodology do you use? And I think complex, if I can keep overworking that word,
there’s been a great deal of progress in the field than many people who looked at it from afar
since the 1950s. [Cut here in video] I think also were aware of. Now, it’s true that I think a func-
the enormous increase in the number of coun-
Annu. Rev. Polit. Sci. 2009.12:1-9. Downloaded from www.annualreviews.org
tries in the world, and the increase in the variety science as well, is to simplify this complexity of
of political systems makes it a much more chal- reality, and to provide a more adequate way of
lenging field but a richer one as well . . . [Cut understanding it and seeing it, because when
here in video] . . . scholars in those countries, we try to understand it as complexity we don’t
maybe trained elsewhere but now increasingly understand it. It’s like looking out at the stars
trained within those countries, who study their at night. It’s great to look out at night and see
own political systems. I mean, it’s a much more the stars but you’re not understanding anything
difficult field for any scholar because it is so very about the nature of the universe. It has to be
rich, and trying to make some kind of sense out simplified. And in simplification you lose some
of it all is almost impossible. But it’s a very big potential information, but the gain is to provide
and, to overuse the term, rich field I think. comprehensibility and coherence.
ML: It is. It’s very exciting actually, what’s gone ML: The other thing in my memory of what
on. [Cut here in video.] There was this, as we was going on at that time was, there was a real
mentioned, very important debate that you re- issue about how you operationalize and how
ally initiated to a large extent with Who Governs? you actually test, and what kinds of theories and
in response to the simplified elitist views of the models you can test and which ones you can’t,
Italians. And there were others who got into and that’s another area in which I think your
that debate trying to operationalize the term, contribution is quite significant.
like Jim Coleman and others, and then there
RD: Well, I appreciate your bringing that up,
were a group of people like Peter Bachrach who
because that too was something that I began to
I worked with, and ultimately Michael Lipsky
think about during that year that I spent at the
and Francis Fox Piven and others, who were,
Center in Palo Alto—issues of operationalizing
and Steven Lukes, who were quite critical of
concepts and testing concepts and so on. How
your view of power. Right? Because they felt
to bring them into touch with reality in rigor-
that there was a mobilization of bias or hege-
ous, methodologically rigorous ways became a
mony or something else that actually—they
challenge to me. And once again, people like
were called the neo-elitists, right, because there
James Coleman, their attempts at that I think
was an issue about voices that were left out or
had an influence on my way of thinking about
voices that weren’t heard, in the way in which
it. [Cut here in video.]
the process worked. Now, I’m interested in your
response—because you then went on and re- ML: I’m hearing several themes as we talk. Your
sponded to them, right? What was at issue for substantive interest in democracy and power,
you in that debate as it developed? You started and democratization and diffusion of power, but
also your methodological commitment to testa- aspects of rational choice theory, to see that as
bility and operationalization. Finally, I’m also somehow a dominant way of thinking would be
hearing something which I guess I hadn’t quite a terrible blunder, because, as I say, it’s impor-
realized before, your commitment to a kind of tant, but it cannot encompass the empirical va-
interdisciplinarity. You’re talking about being riety and complexity of the world. Nothing can.
influenced by economists; James Coleman was But it can’t be done by rational choice. That can
an eminent sociologist. So, a way of thinking be a part, it should be a part, but social science
about social science as a social science, not just is a much broader enterprise. It’s got to be.
as political science. Is that something that you
ML: And is your sense that rational choice has
think is a good thing for us to be developing?
that hegemonic or dominant role right now?
One of the things that’s happened is that so-
cial science has spread its boundaries. The dis- RD: I don’t know about right now. I think it
ciplinary cores are shifting, in a sense. Is that did for a while. It came to play I think too
good, do you think, for the future, or should we dominant a role, to the exclusion of kind of
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be going back to core ideas in political science? tough-minded empirical research out there in
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8 Dahl · Levi
ANRV377-PL12-01 ARI 2 May 2009 12:5
ML: . . . and that makes a huge difference. I necessarily an argument in favor of keeping it,
want to conclude with a concern that I have, but power and influence have been the center
that I think you share, about what’s happened to of the field of the study of politics from the be-
the field, and this comes back to your concern ginning. And what’s more, they are the central
about power as being both a crucial concept elements in all of our lives, our daily lives and
to understand democratization and also a cru- our family lives, this interview going on—and
cial concept to understand the political world. they’re enormously complex. If you expand as I
And my concern is that we aren’t focusing very tried to do some years ago to power as kind of
much on power as political scientists any longer. a subset of the broader field of influence, with
I don’t know if that’s your sense or not, and if a variety of ways in which influence of human
you think that would be a loss if that were the beings takes place, it’s almost too complex to
case. be able to turn into a scientific discipline. But
that’s the challenge.
RD: You’re a better judge than I as to where
Annu. Rev. Polit. Sci. 2009.12:1-9. Downloaded from www.annualreviews.org
the field has gone, where it is now. But the an- ML: That’s the challenge. Bob, thank you so
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DISCLOSURE STATEMENT
The authors are not aware of any affiliations, memberships, funding, or financial holdings that
might be perceived as affecting the presentation of this interview.
Annual Review of
Political Science
v
AR377-FM ARI 7 April 2009 11:25
Negative Campaigning
Richard R. Lau and Ivy Brown Rovner p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p 285
The Institutional Origins of Inequality in Sub-Saharan Africa
Nicolas van de Walle p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p 307
Riots
Steven I. Wilkinson p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p 329
Regimes and the Rule of Law: Judicial Independence in Comparative
Perspective
Gretchen Helmke and Frances Rosenbluth p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p p 345
Field Experiments and the Political Economy of Development
Annu. Rev. Polit. Sci. 2009.12:1-9. Downloaded from www.annualreviews.org
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