Professional Documents
Culture Documents
Trs 7744 R 0000232121
Trs 7744 R 0000232121
2 [Open session]
6 Mr. Registrar.
8 everyone in and around the could the room. This is case number
9 IT-04-74-T, the Prosecutor versus Prlic et al., thank you Your Honours.
13 accused, and good afternoon to the registrar and the usher as well.
14 We have two oral rulings. Let's start with the first one. It
15 has to do with the request or motion by the Prosecution asking for a full
25 the view that the Prlic Defence has supplied enough information for the
2 Neven Tomic. For instance, the Prlic Defence mentioned parts of the
4 cleansing, and the knowledge that Prlic allegedly had of events that took
7 will deal with other points dealt with by previous witnesses, such as
14 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. Excuse me, Your Honour. I
15 apologise for interrupting the Chamber, but I'm afraid if I don't, it may
16 be to cause further confusion for everyone. Excuse me. I'm just trying
20 courtroom.
22 not very polite, but under the situation I feel that before the Chamber
23 proceeds further announcing these rulings, I need to say that I had asked
24 to address the Chamber this afternoon before the witness came in as the
4 the Chamber rules further on these items including the ruling that was
6 to interrupt the Court, but based on what was filed last Thursday -- I'm
7 sorry, Your Honour, I'm still getting a lost feedback for some reason.
12 to consider its position. And with great -- with great respect to the
13 Chamber did not expect the Chamber to necessarily address those matters
17 the one it just made in terms of the Tomic summary and in relation to the
20 written submissions that will be filed later this afternoon that touch on
21 both of these matters. And I think -- and again, Your Honour, with the
22 greatest of respect and apologies for interrupting the Chamber these are
23 matters that the Chamber should consider before addressing these matters
24 further.
1 Mr. President. With respect to your ruling on -- on Mr. Tomic, now that
4 would suspect that -- I would ask for that. And certainly this is the
5 first I hear that there is a problem with the Tomic submission that we
6 filed.
8 Trial Chamber handed down an oral ruling, and as things stand there's no
10 on.
15 being that to date the Prosecution had not received the two expert
19 respectively.
21 Rule 94 bis the expert report of Milan Cvikl, his CV, and the documents
22 related to his report. On the same day the Prlic Defence disclosed an
23 amended witness schedule indicating that the testimony of Milan Cvikl was
24 postponed until the 17th of November, 2008. The Prlic Defence also
3 Prosecution based on the filing of the expert report and the new date for
9 mistake on line 19, page 4. It's not 10th of November, it's 10th of
10 October.
11 Mr. Scott.
12 MR. SCOTT: Once again, Mr. President, good afternoon and good
15 issuing a ruling, and I only did it out of great reluctance but the
16 need -- the felt need to make certain points available to the Chamber.
17 The points are related as to the current witness, the witness who
22 not seeking private session. If I'm wrong, Counsel, please correct me.
5 MR. SCOTT: First I've heard of it, Your Honour, and I asked the
6 registry beforehand if there had been any application, and I was told no.
8 Mr. Karnavas would know whether he's seeking protective measures for the
9 witness or not.
12 Tribunal had testified with protective measures. This time he's not
14 session at some point due to some of the testimony and the fear of his
16 Bosnia-Herzegovina, which neither the state nor the OTP has done anything
17 about.
20 MR. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. President. Your Honours, then I will
24 today's witness, Mr. Zelenika; a future witness Mr. Tomic; and the
2 submission to the Prosecution for the first time, the Cvikl Report at the
4 his work and preparing his report, Mr. Cvikl has relied extensively on
6 Mr. Tomic, and a past witness, Mr. Akmadzic. Those indicate that those
11 were important enough to provide to Mr. Cvikl, they are important enough
14 material that was just put on our -- dropped in our laps last Friday or
15 Thursday night, there are at least 21 references in which Mr. Cvikl says
16 he relied for his point on the evidence of Mr. Zelenika and cites in his
17 footnotes to interviews with Mr. Zelenika in December 2007, more than ten
18 months ago. Those interviews -- that information has not been provided
23 witness Tomic. Mr. Tomic is cited in the Cvikl report at least 161
1 interviews have not been provided to the Prosecution, and it's our
3 direct but certainly not cross cannot proceed until such time as the
4 Prosecution has been provided with this interview material and had its
6 cross-examination.
11 earlier this year and without any of that information being disclosed or
15 impact all of these items and was going to be part of, and I say part of,
17 preparing over the weekend, and that's what I intended and again for
22 filed later today, and also a further motions and further submissions
23 which in fact the Chamber just requested or just invited concerning the
24 expert.
3 information required by the rules has been provided to it. This Chamber
5 around -- the deadline was around the 28th of April, if I'm not mistaken,
9 some months before the Chamber issued its record. It should have been
14 Thank you.
20 minutes wave time around television, and then I'm going to be cut off and
21 do it that way, because now he's challenged our integrity and he's led
22 you to leave that there are statements. The gentleman could have just
23 picked up the phone and asked for statements and he would have learned
4 went on a field trip and met with certain individuals, and he had a
9 perhaps we could ask the gentleman, Mr. Cvikl, and he can elucidate as to
11 I can assure the trial chamber that I did ask if the gentleman
12 had any handwritten notes knowing full well I would get this sort of
13 response if I dare not turn up any notes the gentleman might have had,
14 and I was told that he didn't keep the notes. That's what I'm told.
16 Mr. Scott is. I do take exception to sort of the innuendo that we have
17 violated orders and we are not being ethical and so on and so forth, and
18 I leave that to you, Your Honours to figure out. But as far as I know he
20 was we provided him with certain information. We also said if you look
24 what we think. Go out and do more. Don't do what Dr. Ribicic did, the
25 Slovenian, the other Slovenian expert did, with is never talk to anybody,
2 available. Don't even speak to the individuals that might have been in
3 place but instead make assertions such as there was no such thing as
6 We wanted to avoid the pitfalls and follies that the Prosecution has
7 shown us throughout the trial. And by the way, this is the same practice
8 that I have done throughout my career, and I've never had a problem. I
9 tell my experts here's the information. Here are the questions we want
10 you to ask. If you think there is any additional information, go for it.
11 If you need to interview anybody, go for it. And unfortunately and with
13 understand the Prosecution's concerns, but I can assure the Trial Chamber
16 questions related to the issues that he was dealing with, which was the
19 you see the first part, you know, how did the system work during the
20 Yugoslavian area -- era, and then how it functioned at the state and the
21 municipal level -- or I should say the republican and then the municipal
24 all this -- these decrees that were passed, what was -- what were the
25 benefits, what were the detriments, what needed to be done with the
3 the report as soon as we were able to, not one second later. So if the
5 fine, but I assume next time perhaps he could just pick up the phone and
10 Mr. Scott.
11 MR. SCOTT: Mr. President, first of all I'm not going to respond
13 always Mr. Karnavas's way. The experts did their work on this -- the
15 Chamber received their evidence and of course will make the determination
16 of the weight to give to that evidence but I'm not going to get into a
17 tit for tat with Mr. Karnavas with respect to the Prosecution witnesses
18 who have testified to date the Prosecution -- except for this one and
20 when the Chamber contrast the extensive advanced notice given by the
22 minimal, and in our view, not even required by the rules has been
24 our position, and the fact that we received that last week has not
25 changed our position, and the fact that we have one more week will not
1 and has not chained our position. It's not what the Rules require, it's
3 I just ask the Court all of you come in here with your very --
4 very capable legal minds and common sense. Listen to what Mr. Karnavas
6 an expert and knows and knows he's going to be coming into court and
8 report for the conclusions in his report cites a witness 161 times, and
9 Mr. Tomic -- and Mr. Karnavas stands up and says, But he didn't keep any
11 Chamber to assess that situation and the disadvantage and prejudice done
14 what that disadvantage is, Your Honour, with great respect. It's not --
15 he doesn't have to cross-examine this witness, and I'm sure he's happy to
16 tender the report, but the Prosecution, unlike the Defence, has to
19 did, and that is not provided, and I just go back to the nature of the
20 report. When you look at all these footnotes and the 161 footnotes where
25 materials, the DVDs, and guess what? None of the interviews are there.
1 Nothing. Just a big fat zero, nothing for Tomic, for Zelenika, and all
6 expert report and our ability to meet the evidence of these coming
10 submissions.
11 Before the witness comes in, Mr. Karnavas, you gave us the
12 schedule for your witnesses. Thank you for that. We have a better idea
14 of today. Does this mean that after the 27th of November, you don't have
16 MR. KARNAVAS: None that are planned, Your Honour and I don't
17 intend to all more witnesses. The remainder of the time we were going to
18 reserve for the other phases, but that's our witness list. We don't
22 At any rate, we're waiting for the OTP's submissions with great
23 trepidation, and the Trial Chamber will issue a ruling on the basis of
24 the submissions. We take due note that Mr. Karnavas said that he did not
25 have any report or personal notes or memos from Cvikl following the
3 Zelenika, so the Prosecution can ask them whether Cvikl, when he met with
4 him, took notes, or listened to them orally without taking any notes.
5 That's all we know so far. At any rate, Mr. Karnavas said that he has
7 Back to you, Mr. Karnavas. I put the question to you for a good
8 reason. We know that after you we'll have the Stojic Defence with their
10 And you do confirm that you will have your last witness on the 27th of
13 majeure.
19 matter of potential Rule 92 bis witnesses, Your Honour, and those motions
20 haven't been filed, and of course, of course the Prosecution may seek
23 Chamber is aware. And I'm sure the Chamber is, but just as a reminder.
24 Thank you.
1 have -- or how many 92 bis witnesses do you have, because you mentioned
2 this. I can't remember exactly. You mentioned some, not many, but you
3 had some.
4 MR. KARNAVAS: There are two categories. The first category are
5 witnesses who have testified before this Tribunal and have been
7 cases, and so if they want to call those witnesses back to take another
10 page to a page and a half, and as I've indicated, I believe I must have
12 large these witnesses are sort of -- they would fall into the category of
14 that's what these witnesses are, and of course the Prosecution is free to
15 call them if they wish to call them, but as I said, they're one to two
16 pages long.
21 you're still waiting. I'm hoping that by the end of the week I will have
22 those four small statements I spoke of. As far as the others -- and I
24 earlier. I can assure the Trial Chamber that I'm going to endeavour to
25 have that by either the end of the week or first part of next week, but
2 believe, of the Prosecution team, and so -- and I don't see the purpose
6 we will have -- thank you very much for your answers to our request.
9 requested a week ago, and this will help us to follow your own
13 sure that one point is made clear, that not only do I not have any notes
14 but never did I ever give any instructions to -- to Mr. Cvikl either not
16 just want to make sure that -- because the implication may be that he's
23 state your name, your name and your birth date, if you please.
1 Mr. Registrar.
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5 [Open session]
8 work today? Are you working or not working? And if you are working,
14 speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
17 going to last four days to hear you. First of all, you will have to
18 answer questions from Mr. Karnavas. You probably met Mr. Karnavas before
19 in order to prepare this hearing. He will ask you questions, and he will
20 show you some documents. At the end of that, the other counsel of the
21 other accused may also question you within the framework of their
22 cross-examination.
1 The four Judges you may see may also ask questions from you and
4 Try and be extremely precise in your answers when you answer the
5 questions, and if you don't understand a question, don't hesitate and ask
8 during the hearing you don't feel well, raise your hand and we will stop
10 You made a solemn declaration to say the truth and the whole
11 truth, so this means that you are now a witness, and you do not -- you're
12 not a witness of one or the other party. You don't have any contact any
13 more with either Mr. Karnavas nor Mr. Prlic. This is what I wanted to
14 tell you.
16 members of the Chamber, don't hesitate to ask us. Raise your hand then.
19 now give the floor to Mr. Karnavas, who shall now start the -- his
20 examination.
24 A. Good afternoon.
1 about your background. If you could tell us where you're from and the
8 positions that you've held, the kind of work that you did up until 1991.
13 human resources and general affairs. Then from 1984 to 1986 I was the
16 Granit Company where I was a manager of the unit for joint services. And
18 resume.
20 in time, and you can tell us exactly when, you became again the President
23 A. Yes.
4 I'll -- let me just ask one quick question and then we'll going into more
5 details. When you compare the way the Executive Council operated in 1991
6 for the six months that you were there and look back to when you were the
8 the rules of procedure and how it functioned, was it the same or was it
9 different?
11 executive down in 1992 were the same as in the period 1984 to 1986.
13 1984 and 1986 and we're only interested in knowing somehow this board,
15 president, how you fit within the board. So would you please tell us a
16 little bit about that. How did the Executive Board fit into this?
22 else with, for instance, extra powers for voting or being capable of
24 consultation, or were you just one -- one member with equal rights, that
1 A. I was actually one of the members with one vote, and I had no
4 Q. All right. Well, when decisions were made and when appointments
6 Executive Council?
12 A. Absolutely.
14 even if you had voted against it but it had passed because of the
15 majority of voting?
16 A. Yes. My vote was just one among the total number of votes in the
17 Executive Council.
18 Q. All right. Now, let's fast forward a little bit to 1991, 1992.
19 First let me ask you whether you were a member of a political party at
20 the time. This is leading up to the elections, the first free elections.
22 elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
3 the immediate threat of war and thus the Assembly of the municipality was
4 not functioning any more. There was in its place an operative body
8 Q. All right. Well, had you ban member of the Crisis Staff?
9 A. No.
10 Q. All right. Well, had you been associated with or involved in any
14 secretary of the secretariat for the economy, social affairs and general
17 Q. All right. Okay. You were -- you were a member of the Executive
19 A. Yes.
21 A. Yes.
23 department; correct?
24 A. You could put it that way, although within the framework of the
25 secretariat they are -- there are lower organisational units that are
1 called departments and sections, but you could put it that way. It's one
3 Q. All right. When you say that you were elected, how were you
11 Q. And at that time when you were nominated by the HDZ, were you a
17 A. Yes.
21 body?
25 was not just the nomination from the HDZ. It was an agreement between
3 the political parties at the time that were members of the Crisis Staff
9 question. If you can help me out here. We know the SDA and the HDZ.
10 We've covered those. The SDP would have been one of the others.
11 A. SDP, but also the Liberal Party. I can't remember any more.
13 Q. All right. And based on the electoral results, were you entitled
14 to hold such a high position since you were -- initially you came into
15 the Crisis Staff -- or you initially came into the -- the secretariat by
18 Council?
19 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. Excuse me. Your Honour, I'm
21 substantial leading questions being put to the witness from the very
22 beginning, and I have deferred to it or not raised the issue until now,
23 but if these are important enough questions for Mr. Karnavas to put to
24 the witness and he apparently thinks they are, then they shouldn't be
25 leading in nature. Just put open-ended questions, and let's receive the
4 such nature. I should also point out that the gentleman did provide the
5 OTP with an extensive 92 bis statement that they used in another case.
7 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. That has nothing to do with
11 Mr. President.
13 there were any leading questions. Those are questions which are
15 this the questions have to enable us by their answers to sort this out.
17 MR. KARNAVAS:
20 A. My name had been put forward by all the parties pursuant to their
22 name had not been put forward bit HDZ alone, because the HDZ had not
23 gotten a result at the election that would have guaranteed the party that
4 whatever the Crisis Staff passed, when needed they had to submit to the
10 Q. All right. And how long did the Crisis Staff -- how long was it
13 least two months, after which it was renamed and was now called the
14 War Presidency.
15 Q. And could you tell us whether there were any changes, now that it
16 went from Crisis Staff to the War Presidency? Did its membership in any
17 way change, and whether its functions changed in any way, could you
20 occurred to the name. As far as the powers of that body were concerned
22 continued to do the same thing that the Crisis Staff had been doing
23 previously.
24 Q. All right. Well, let's talk about that a little bit. Just very
25 briefly, if you could tell us what sorts of things was the War Presidency
1 doing? What was it competent of doing, and what was it in fact doing?
2 A. The War Presidency had all the powers that under the law, under
5 Presidency was an operative body, the scope of whose work was much
7 the Presidency under its statute and under the law had the power to
8 analyse and monitor emergency situations such as the one we were now
10 war.
11 Q. All right. Now, during that time when you had the Crisis Staff
12 and then later on the War Presidency, were there any armed forces in and
13 around Jablanica municipality and, if so, could you please tell us what
15 A. Well, the Crisis Staff was in existence -- while the Crisis Staff
16 was in existence and now that there was the War Presidency, there were
17 some armed forces around. The Territorial Defence on the one hand, the
19 Territorial Defence for a while and then at different time known as the
20 armed forces. On the other hand there was the armed component element of
21 the Croatian Defence Council, and these were two armed components or
22 forces that had equal rights in every way, their shared objective being
23 to defend Bosnia-Herzegovina.
7 previous answer --
9 but I'm looking at the question. You are saying that the HVO was the
13 previous answer that the gentleman gave, I mean, I'm -- fine. But if you
23 the time in Jablanica there were two equal and legitimate defence
25 Patriotic League, and this went under the name armed forces and then the
1 other hand there was the Croatian Defence Council and those two
3 municipality, of course.
4 Q. Now, let's talk about these two legitimate armed forces. You
5 said that they were equally recognised. What about the financing of
8 Green Berets were for the most part bankrolled by the local economy the
11 so on and so on, from the Main Staff. There had been an agreement that
14 Muslim armed forces and 20 per cent in favour of the Croatian Defence
15 Council.
18 A. Well, not for the most part. Not for the most part. And I, as
20 meetings of the Crisis Staff or the War Presidency whenever whoever was
21 of charge reported this, saying that they were facing some difficulties
22 making sure the 20 per cent earmarked for the Croatian Defence Council
25 and around Jablanica municipality and, if so, can you please describe it?
1 A. Could you please specify the time-frame in 1992 that you have in
2 mind.
3 Q. All right. Well, when the Crisis Staff and the War Presidency
4 and, of course, keeping in mind that you've already told us about the HVO
7 time?
13 amounted to.
15 was a form of self-help or help, if you like, to the Croats in the area.
19 their ethnicity.
23 component of the what? The HVO military; is that what we're talking
24 about?
1 Q. All right. Did the HVO civilian component ever set up a parallel
3 you know, have administrative services and establish police with police
4 officers running around with guns and billy clubs and a car, collecting
6 A. Certainly not. This was an advisory body, and that did not
8 There were several persons who were involved who would hold meetings
10 given time they would make the proposals or would advise but they
15 what this was all about. You can't have a body of power exercising its
17 there was an office at a later point but it was just to keep them from
19 Q. All right. Well, that's what I want to get to. At some point
20 did it have an office and, if so, where was that office located?
21 A. An office was approved by the War Presidency for the HVO. At one
22 point in time it was on the way out of Jablanica town along the road to
23 Sarajevo near the bridge, the hydroelectric power plant. Later on it was
1 Q. All right. When it moved to the centre of the town, who provided
2 those facilities? Did they buy it? Did they rent it? Was it made
4 A. Sir, as I pointed out before, even the first offices that was
5 used it was actually a single office and the same applies to the ones
7 That was something that the War Presidency of the Jablanica municipality
8 allowed the HVO to use. It wasn't about renting. This was a socially
9 owned property and the War Presidency had the power to award the use of
11 Q. All right. What about the HVO, the military component? Did they
12 have -- were they located in any particular area? Did they have
13 headquarters, barracks and if, so, where were they located and who
15 A. The military component of the HVO had a room that it was using,
16 and it was using this room jointly with the civilian component, and this
18 municipality. And then the office moved to Zeljeznicka Street while the
19 military office remained over there in this one room, and this was
20 something that was given to them or granted to them again by the War
24 area, so let me be very concrete. Did the HVO or the Croatian Community
4 A. Certainly not.
6 perhaps in conjunction with the military component, to take over the War
8 A. No.
9 Q. Were any discussions ever held regarding the HVO or the Croatian
14 there was nothing like that at all going on. That simple.
15 Q. All right. Did you yourself, however, ever, when you were either
22 Q. All right. And could you please tell us what those talks were
23 about, how far the talks went, what was the purpose, some details?
24 A. The talks were about checking if there were any better options to
25 organise life in Jablanica. As time went by, Jablanica was becoming more
1 and more of a dead end. We did know, however, that in some other areas
2 life was organised in a much better way for citizens and for Defence
4 see if we could improve the living conditions, both for citizens and for
5 defence purposes. I must especially point out the fact that at the time
6 Jablanica municipality and especially its main town, Jablanica town, were
7 under pressure, pressure from refugees flooding in. At one point in time
8 there were more refugees living there than the domicile population, the
9 local population.
10 Q. All right. And we'll talk a little bit more about that, but
11 since you spoke of the refugees and of the times, were the residents of
12 the Jablanica municipality ever mobilised and, if so, do you recall when?
16 of?
22 A. Yes.
25 what was termed the work platoon. I was told to report at 7.00 in the
2 along a shovel, a pike, and a saw. The summons also said that should I
5 a document dating 20 years before, from 1973, when the military medical
7 in the armed forces, and document said explicitly that I was unable to
8 stand, walk, march, or stand guard for any extensive period of time.
11 stating that I was unfit for this type of military service as I have now
13 protection.
14 I invoked this decision that was then 20 years old, and I failed
16 who had issued the summons sent the police for me. I was taken in by
19 had one of those too dated 20 years ago, and he said it was worthless.
20 He said that all those decisions and medical certificates would now be
21 subject to revision, but until such time it was my duty to report to the
24 Q. Let me ask you this: Were you ever given the opportunity to be
25 medically examined to see whether your condition had changed, you know,
2 A. Yes.
4 A. No.
6 A. Yes.
10 which I had been suffering from ever since 1961. I had a lot of medical
12 that medical commission who said he did not have the time to go through
14 check me either.
15 Q. All right. And what sort of labour -- you said forced labour.
16 Could you just in one minute tell us what sort of forced labour or labour
19 positions. This was about carrying food, water, and weapons to BH army
20 positions. This was also about other types of manual labour that we were
25 Q. All right. And how were you treated in the camp? You don't have
1 to go into all the details at this point, but how were you treated in the
2 camp?
6 A. I was in the camp from the 8th of September, 1993, to the 1st of
7 March, 1994, when through the intercession of the International Red Cross
8 I was released.
9 Q. Who was the war -- who was the president of the War Presidency at
10 the time for the Jablanica municipality, that is, when you were both
11 doing forced labour and then when you were in the camp?
12 A. At the time when I was performing forced labour and when I was in
13 the camp, the president of the Jablanica municipality was Dr. Safet Cibo.
14 Q. And do you know when Dr. Safet Cibo would have known about you
16 whether -- and the conditions under which you were in that camp for all
19 MR. KARNAVAS: All right. At this point we can take our break,
20 Your Honours.
22 break.
1 floor.
3 Q. Mr. Zelenika, we're going to go to the documents now and you have
4 your folder in front of you, and as I've indicated to you in the past,
5 the documents would be sort of in the order in which I'm going to present
6 them to you. So the first set of documents deal with minutes of meetings
8 look at first P 00272. That should be your very first document. Do you
10 A. I do.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. We note that it's 19 June, 1992, and we see that your name is
16 A. Yes.
19 first write the names of members of the council, of the deputies, and
21 "Others."
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Thank you. And -- and I see that your name comes up here on a
25 couple of occasions. First, can you please tell us what's going on with
3 indication.
5 A. I can.
7 Jablanica from the day when the Crisis Staff of the municipality
8 nominated me to be the president of the Executive Board, and this was the
9 first opportunity for the Municipal Assembly to verify all the enactments
10 and decisions, conclusions, et cetera that the Crisis Staff had in the
11 period between the two sessions adopted. Among these decisions was the
12 decision to appoint me president of the Executive Board, and this was the
16 out here.
19 Q. Now, was that because you were a Croat or a member of HDZ, or was
22 Democratic Action, the SDA, believed that on the basis of the electoral
23 results in 1990 the HDZ should not get the position of the president of
24 the Executive Board, and that was the reason for their reservations.
4 A. Yes.
6 because here Mr. Rogic says they informed the deputies that the decision
9 skip one, one sentence, it says: "After hearing the proposals set out by
10 Hamdo Sefer, the Assembly decided that Nijaz Ivkovic and Hamdo Sefer.
13 Jablanica-Posusje road."
20 all the traffic from Sarajevo and from Prozor went along the macadam
21 road. That's the reason why help was required from outside, from other
22 people.
25 A. I said the road from Sarajevo to Mostar was cut off, and traffic
2 cetera.
3 Q. And did that road have a name at some point? Was it given some
4 sort of a name?
5 A. Yes. That road was classified as a regional road and had the
8 of Salvation because that was the only road available from Jablanica.
9 Q. All right. But why was Hamdo Sefer or Nijaz Ivkovic, and I
10 assume they're Muslim, why not go to Zenica? Why not go to Tuzla? Why
11 not go to Sarajevo? Why not go some place else? Why are they going to
14 Mr. Nijaz Ivkovic were Muslims, but this kind of assistance and any other
15 kind of assistance was not available from Sarajevo because Sarajevo was
16 absolutely besieged. Had been besieged for a long time before the moment
24 doesn't know, he doesn't have the answer, we can move on. But
4 MR. KARNAVAS:
5 Q. Why -- why are these members of this particular meeting, why are
7 A. Here is the answer: If we're talking about the road, I know that
8 even before the war there was a specialised company in Grude called Grude
9 Roads which built and maintained roads. So they had the resources
10 required, and the idea was to see if they could help build this road more
12 Q. All right. Well, there's discussion here, and you raise -- you
13 raise the issue with respect to the war budget. Who is going to pay this
16 A. At that time we didn't have any money. We didn't have any money,
17 but we knew that there was money in the region. So that was one reason
18 why we wanted to look into that possibility. But it was possible for us
20 available in the Jablanica area. So we did not have funds but we had
24 A. I do.
25 Q. And we again see that your name is here, and we see you as a
3 Presidency in Jablanica?
4 A. Yes, I can confirm that by that time I was already president, and
5 I was member of the War Presidency at the time we are talking about.
7 A. I do.
12 Q. Zerem?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now here I'm going to read what he says and I'm going to ask you
21 whether you could help us out here. It states here that he says the
22 state of BiH had joined forces consisting of the army of BiH and the HVO
24 thing would be difficult. "It is necessary to say that the Muslims were
1 aggressor, and for that reason, they're also very grateful to the
2 Croatian nation for their timely engagement and brave fight against the
3 aggressor."
6 A. Yes, I do recall.
9 nothing major, but just for the transcript, when the witness was reading
10 from the document -- or it may have been Mr. Karnavas, I'm not sure --
11 but it came across in line -- let me find it again. On page 45, line 10
12 it was transcribed as the state of BiH had joined forces. And what the
13 document says is that had joint, j-o-i-n-t, had joint forces and there
18 the page in English. This is a comment by Zeljko Siljeg, and he's saying
24 Mr. Siljeg?
1 Bosnian Muslim armed forces and on the side of the HVO for the same
2 reasons, absolutely the same reasons, and in most cases the people
4 Q. All right. Now, if we go to the very last page, on page 11, and
5 focusing on what Mr. Matan Zaric indicated, and of course when one reads
6 this document you have to go to page 2 of the English as well, but here
7 he says: "Matan Zaric pointed out again that the companies from
9 that the Jablanica HVO requires 20 per cent of that support (food, money,
10 and uniforms). The Presidency made right decisions on that, but they are
13 A. I do.
14 Q. Okay. First question is: BiH OS, what does that mean? What
15 does OS mean?
17 Q. And who were the armed forces at the time of Bosnia and
19 BiH OS?
21 Herzegovina were the Territorial Defence, the Patriotic League, and the
22 Green Berets. They had a common name, the Armed Forces of Bosnia and
23 Herzegovina.
24 Q. Now, what is Mr. Matan Zaric saying here about the 20 per cent
25 that was required, food, money, and uniforms, and that the Presidency had
2 that?
3 A. He was trying to say that that particular decision was not being
4 honoured and that the 20 per cent of support were not being given to the
6 forces in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
8 is minutes from a session of the 22nd of October, 1992, and now we see
10 A. I do.
14 parties, deputies, and then others. I belonged with the others, and this
15 listing is correct.
18 and if we look at the third paragraph of what he's saying, he says here:
19 "The OS," the armed forces, that is, "and the HVO in the territory of the
24 slowing it down."
1 A. I do.
2 Q. Now, can you confirm whether Zerem said those words at that
4 A. I can confirm that. Mr. Zerem said this not for the first time.
8 the municipality, more contacts and cooperation between the OS and the
11 general."
13 A. Yes.
16 A. We're talking now about the period at the end of November 1992.
17 The environment around Jablanica was not really good. There were a
20 larger in number than the local population. I could say that almost 100
21 per cent of the refugees were Muslim. Many had been traumatized by their
22 past recent experiences and were forced to leave their homes and come to
24 and suffering and sometimes the local population got the worse end of
25 that.
2 that it says at the end of November 1992. Did you mean November or
4 A. It's October.
11 MR. KARNAVAS:
12 Q. Let me just ask you concretely, Mr. Zelenika. Other than what
15 ensure that the adverse events in its environment not be reflected in the
16 locality. All these refugees and the armed forces in the municipality
17 had a certain impact, and the problem was how to make sure that this does
19 Q. All right.
21 Thank you.
22 MR. KARNAVAS:
24 you speak. At some point you spoke at this meeting. Do you recall?
25 A. Yes.
3 Board encompasses the beginning of its work to date. And then later on
4 you say due to the continual harassment, it says you offered to file your
6 been reached.
9 another session four years earlier of the difficulties that had only
11 Executive Board any longer knowing that I'm not enjoying the support of
12 all the members of the assembly, and that's why I informed them in so
13 many words that I'm facing an impossible situation. I was unable to pass
14 almost a single decision through the council no matter how good the
20 parties. It was on a personal level. The people who were sitting on the
24 there were two of us Croats and five Muslims, and I was not able to
1 now.
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. We do see that Mr. Rogic and Mr. Zaric, which I -- who are
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. All right. And I just want to focus your attention on just one
11 see that it appears that the Christmas celebration will not take place
13 Father Bosnjak has similar views. Can you please explain what was
16 A. Yes. I did not attend this meeting. I had been replaced on the
21 Jablanica causing some material damage. However, the greater damage was
22 the fact that it caused concern among people in Jablanica, especially the
23 Catholics, especially when they found out that the Christmas mass would
24 not be celebrated. For any Catholic the Christmas mass and Christmas
25 itself is one of the most important religious festivities that they mark
1 every year.
2 Q. All right. Now, you told us that you had -- you were no longer
3 on the Presidency. I want to walk you back a little bit and ask you when
4 you were still a member of the Presidency, do you ever recall attending a
5 meeting where Izetbegovic was present and, if so, can you please tell us
11 The municipal leaders were there, the party leaders were there.
15 and I don't see anything in the summary anything about the hydroelectric
17 evidence at all.
20 and foremost.
24 failed to ask him all the necessary questions at the time. This
1 question and then if you wish to strike it from the record, you could do
5 Prosecution has made no secret of the fact and I'm sure the Chamber is
8 is the only notice, is the only notice of this evidence that we're
9 getting. We don't get statements, and we had the issue earlier today
10 about whether statements should be provided or not, and when we say we're
15 on 31st of March, 2008. There is nothing in the summary about this topic
21 to mention in the summary that the witness was planning to mention this
23 think it was secondary at the time, and do you want to change your mind
24 now?
1 Thursday for a couple hours, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and then today
2 again all the way until 12.30. We went over -- well over 150 documents
3 with the gentleman. During the course sometime today, he had indicated a
9 Now, we've heard testimony or there have been some documents that
10 Mr. Izetbegovic had been in Mostar prior -- sometime around this period
13 Dr. Jadranko Prlic. What is telling about this particular meeting that
21 notice and not to go into it with the witness sitting here. If you want
22 to excuse the witness and discuss it further, that's fine. But I'm not
23 going to let Mr. Karnavas, with all due respect, put the evidence in
24 front of the witness and the Chamber on the very point that I've raised.
3 was just prior to 12.30, just before 12.30 that this was mentioned. It
4 was mentioned that Mr. Izetbegovic came. Is that how Mr. Karnavas said?
7 about 1.00, as a matter of fact. Between noon and 1.00, early this
8 afternoon.
19 component, but there were also some other people such as managers of
23 Q. Excuse me, if you could just wait. I would prefer having the
1 the following reason: On page 53, when you first answered the
4 statement."
10 JUDGE TRECHSEL: Now you say you could only know today at 1.00
15 question.
16 The 92 bis statement, which you should have as well, was given
20 is, you don't take a 92 bis statement as extensive as this one without
22 Now, I don't know whether they asked him all those details. What I do
23 know is that they had access to the gentleman. They questioned the
25 some of the things that he knew, I don't know, but they knew at the time
5 always prepared to examine and admit it if it's the case. I had thought
6 that you were intimating that that 92 bis statement the question had come
7 up.
8 MR. KARNAVAS: No, it hadn't come up. And that's the whole
9 point.
12 things because they -- you know, their memory has been jogged, and all of
14 reconcile the situation and this was one instance when it happened so
2 that out because I know that this was one of the rare occasions where
8 MR. KARNAVAS:
11 because there was an objection by Mr. Scott, you meant to say that this
14 meeting with Izetbegovic who allegedly came. So this morning when you
15 talked about this with the witness, you were informed around 1.00 of
20 every single question. On the other hand, when information does come up,
22 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour. Just so the record is clear
23 and I don't want to make too much of it at this point, but when an
4 excuse this by saying the investigator back at that time should have ask
5 all of these questions and then taking us full circle where this started
6 that that somehow relieves him of the obligation to provide notice and
10 lot better than it is, I might know a lot, and I think I do know quite a
12 what his obligations are under the Rules and that is to write a summary
13 not matter -- I may know everything. I don't, but maybe I do. That
14 doesn't relief him of his obligation to comply with the Rules, and
15 frankly -- and I'm sure you can hear in it in my voice -- I'm tired of
16 being told every time we object that we should know. It doesn't matter
21 later on when he met with the witness there were things that were not in
22 the statement or in the summary that could appear. And you're right in
23 saying that he has to inform you, but he discovered this at 1.00 this
25 you a long letter and explaining to you that during the proofing session
8 morning before Monday afternoon new things came up, and I remember that
10 furthermore during the proofing such-and-such a new question had come up.
13 had their staff and -- which I don't have. And of course I've been
16 extreme circumstances. I don't have the staff. It's easy to say, well,
17 you know, can't -- who's going to do it, okay? It's one of those things.
18 I am got up at 4.00 in the morning. I'm not crying about it but that's
19 the nature of things. I was working from 4.00 in the morning until all
20 the way until I got here and I had 10 minutes to spare. Ms. Tomanovic
21 was assisting us all the way to the very end. Now, if this is a problem,
22 what we could very well do is I won't go into this area until tomorrow.
23 That gives the Prosecution sufficient time. That's good, but what I do
24 get the impression, Judge Trechsel, is somehow, you -- and perhaps others
25 on the bench -- are under the impression that Karnavas just loves
1 thinking up ways how to obstruct the Prosecution's day, and that's not
3 JUDGE TRECHSEL: It's not the case that I think like that,
5 MR. KARNAVAS: But the last thing I want to do is stand here and
7 the tracks.
9 could have had someone informed in the course of this afternoon and bring
15 think it's quite right the comments that have been made The President
16 also, Your Honour, that when issues do arise at the last moment, prior to
17 the testimony of course it can be raised but -- but given that it has
18 come up, I don't think we need to spend so much time on this issue. If
22 the Prosecution to the extent that they need that time in order to
24 point, but that may be the more expedient way to deal with it rather than
3 issue.
8 Ms. Alaburic.
11 about, and the explanation on the previous page of the transcript I just
12 wanted to point out that the Defence never raised any objections in
14 the OTP's case. We merely raised objections when new topics were touched
15 upon that were not actually part and parcel of the witness statements,
20 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour, one brief response because it
21 makes our points, and I appreciate my good friend Ms. Alaburic pointing
23 reason that the Defence couldn't have to raise issues so much about the
25 provide them with a 15, 20-page statement of the witness before the
2 coming into court. So they're not so much concerned. Let's face it,
3 they're not so much concerned about the summary. They have a statement.
5 paragraphs. That's what we're given. And that's why, Your Honour, and
6 with great respect, that's why we feel so strongly about it, and that's
7 why we'll continue until the last day of trial, as long as the summaries
8 are not deficient, we will continue to raise the issue. That's all we
9 get, Your Honour, and that's why it's so important. That's why we keep
13 MR. KARNAVAS: And perhaps during the next break if I could give
15 because it takes some time to type it out and everything. And I can type
16 it out as well for the record, but I can give them a verbal.
19 topic, and I'm going to focus your attention. We're going to be talking
23 A. Yes.
25 know the, the -- the armed forces located in Jablanica municipality, and
1 as I understand it this would confirm what you were saying earlier, that
2 the -- that you have Territorial Defence, the Croatian Defence Council,
5 A. Yes.
7 A. Yes.
9 announcement. It's 6 May 1992, and this talks about a unified defence
12 A. Yes.
15 MR. KARNAVAS:
16 Q. All right. Now, this announcement, would that have been made
17 available to all the citizens of Jablanica so they would have known the
19 A. Well, I can't say all the citizens but most, most at the time.
20 Our system of channeling information was quite good at the time. We had
21 capable TV, and it had been tasked by the War Presidency to keep everyone
22 informed about key issues. The purpose of this statement was forwarded
23 to be read out, and it was several times in the evening hours over the
24 capable TV, and I do believe that most of the citizens knew about this.
2 Green Berets in this document. Everyone knows that the Green Berets are
3 rather on the side of the BiH than the HVO. This announcement is public,
5 say, all those who were in the BiH knew that you had at Jablanica a
6 unified force which gathers the Green Berets and the HVO. Am I mistaken
7 or not?
10 being the Territorial Defence, the Green Berets, and the Patriotic
11 League, the other -- the other legal and fully legitimate and equal
12 component was the HVO. These two joint components made up the armed
20 this is 21 May 1992, and this is an order and it says: "All available
2 armed forces. This order, however, strays a little from what we saw a
3 moment ago. It says that all the meat that was requisitioned should be
4 made available to members of the Territorial Defence but not the HVO.
6 we see an order that the military staff, the command of the defence
8 in English, "consumption of crude oil and its derivatives for all members
11 Hadzihusejnovic?
12 A. Yes.
15 Q. And for those of us not familiar with the terrain, how far is
21 look at the document and tell us, does it say unique or is it something
22 else?
7 A. Yes.
9 quickly, if anything?
11 The HVO is here not being treated as an equal component in the defence of
12 Bosnia-Herzegovina. They only deal here with the TO stations -- with the
13 TO and the public security stations, but the HVO seems to be left out.
15 it says here "To remain the Territorial Defence as the staff of the
20 now no longer spoke of the Green Berets, the Patriotic League and the TO.
21 Rather, the new name encompassing all these now was the Armed Forces of
22 Jablanica.
1 that the restaurant and kitchen, and it's named in here, is -- "... shall
5 by a socially owned business. They were into catering, and this was to
6 be used by the HVO for HVO purposes, but this wasn't as big as a
8 soldiers. That's where they ate, where they took their meals, about 50
9 of them, because that's how big it was. It was no bigger than that.
11 1D 01462. This is now 19 January, 1993. We're moving in time. And this
12 is an order limiting the sale of oil and oil derivatives. And if we look
17 point in time was receiving oil and oil derivatives per this order of the
20 use of oil and oil derivatives given the fact that the HVO got its petrol
21 from the petrol station, they were actually renting the petrol station
22 for that purpose. This restriction in no way applied to the HVO but,
4 HVO.
8 agreement was reached with them, a conditional one for them to supply and
10 there's another document which is the full scale -- or, rather, detailed
11 agreement on that.
15 A. Yes, precisely.
18 MR. KARNAVAS:
25 now going back to May 1, 1992, with this document, 1D 01449, we see that
1 there's a decision by Sefer Hamdo where he says to give 2.500 meals given
3 to staff.
4 My first question is these meals that were given by the UN, were
8 Q. Okay. Were they for military or for civilian? That's what I'm
11 civilians.
13 the Jablanica Territorial Defence, would that include also the HVO
14 getting their 20 per cent of the 2.500 meals, which by my math it's about
15 500.
16 A. No. This decision does not imply that the HVO would be getting
17 their 20 per cent cut over a total of 2.500. This decision is actually
18 not in keeping with the documents that we were looking at a while ago
19 about there being two equally recognised components of the defence plan.
23 [Private session]
24 (redacted)
25 (redacted)
10
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
1 (redacted)
2 (redacted)
3 (redacted)
4 [Open session]
12 MR. KARNAVAS: Thank you, Mr. President. And then perhaps we can
13 have two or three minutes prior to the end of the day where I do want to
18 next chapter, sir. This deals with the issue of curfew. And it's not
25 introduce it due to the fact that there was a large number of displaced
2 population. Those were the reason. And according to the reports of the
3 police, there was a large -- there was a high incidence of offences and
4 violations against law and order, and that was the reason why it was
6 Q. All right. Okay. Thank you. And we'll just look at one other
7 document, and there will be others for the Trial Chamber by way of
9 curfew, and this is 28 May 1992. And I take it that your answer would be
10 the same with this decision as it was with the one that you've just told
11 us about; correct?
12 A. Yes.
18 A. They were manned by the reserve force of the police, mixed crews
21 and this deals with roads. We did such a little bit on this. You spoke
24 the Crisis Staff for the municipality of Prozor, Gornji Vakuf, and
3 First let me ask you, are you familiar with this stretch of the
4 road, Jablanica-Risovac?
5 A. Yes. That's the regional road R-419, the Salvation Road that we
11 you mentioned.
15 hub of roads from Sarajevo, from the direction of Banja Luka. Those
17 Mostar, the only way to go was Doljani, Posusje, Split. That's about 60
18 kilometres.
21 A. They were going almost every day. I know that. And it was
23 Q. All right. And what period of are we speaking of when they were
24 going to Split?
25 A. So we are now discussing the first part of 1992, and they kept
2 Q. All right. You say first part of 1992. Now, what months are we
3 talking about?
5 until mid-April.
6 Q. All right. Where were they coming from? What parts of the
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina; correct?
18 A. Yes.
25 have April 25, 1992, and we see that "the Jablanica Territorial Defence
4 document, the importance of that road and the need to keep it open so
5 that the refugees coming from northern areas of Bosnia would be able to
11 and back and my question now is how is it that the Jablanica municipality
15 Jablanica. So the Crisis Staff thought that all the resources that
19 it.
20 A. Yes.
22 municipality?
23 A. Right.
1 R-419. This is the same road I take it that we've been talking about;
2 correct?
6 This is 23 June 1992. What was it necessary to repair bridges? What was
7 the problem?
9 and destroyed, and the interventions we see referred to here were not
13 Q. That concludes that section, but let me ask one question. Did
14 the HVO military component or the HVO civilian component in any way try
16 A. No, on the contrary. The HVO took an active part with all its
19 deals with some issues on the economy, loosely phrased, so nobody should
21 title.
23 and we can see that it talks about instructing all companies, the SDK,
24 that's the Public Auditing Service, the Sarajevo commercial bank branches
25 and the post offices that they're to place their materiel and technical
2 Crisis Staff. Can you tell us, please, why was this necessary? What
4 A. This order had a purpose of placing cash from the SDK, the bank
7 Q. All right. Now, we've heard testimony before, and we'll hear it
9 Public Auditing Service, the SDK as it was known back then. Could you
10 please tell us whether the Public Auditing Service for Jablanica, whether
12 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour, there's nothing about the SDK
16 MR. KARNAVAS: Your Honour, these are documents that again are
17 rather clear on their face. There is nothing in the summary again when
18 we go to the next document that has Jugo dinars, German marks and
19 Croatian dinars. Now, let's put it into context. We've had testimony
20 regarding the Public Auditing Service, and this gentleman was there. I'm
23 also, as it was pointed out to me, and I'm very grateful to my colleagues
3 extent any -- if any he was prejudiced and fight the appropriate remedy
4 such as, because you must take the least restrictive measure, give him an
7 Judge Trechsel has correctly pointed out, and it's quite relevant now
8 again, id what Mr. Karnavas wants to do is just simply read 65 ter (G)
9 out of the rules. Let's just take the rule book and tear those out and
10 say they don't apply to me. And say the rules don't apply to me. Is
11 that the Chamber's ruling? Because it's not in the summary, and there is
12 no reason for all this. Mr. Scott should it's not in the summary, Your
13 Honour.
20 make this final comment, and I'll abide whatever decision you make on
22 use with -- with the -- with our witnesses. Now, it is incumbent upon
25 They also had the gentleman's background, and just by looking at the
1 gentleman's summary they would have known that we were discussing issues
5 JUDGE TRECHSEL: You have not much new argument, Mr. Karnavas,
6 the same all over again. And I refer you to Rule 65 ter (G)(i)(b) and
7 what you say is different. It is not what the Rules say. It's as simple
8 as that. The Rules say you must warn about the facts. You must give a
9 summary of the facts the witness will speak about, and you want to escape
10 that. You simply do not want to accept it. I think that is not -- it's
11 not correct.
13 Nobody's trying to escape anything. But I'll move on. I'm go on. If
14 the SDK upsets the Prosecution and it upsets you, and you feel that
19 something else, but my colleague is absolutely right. The Rules say that
20 you have to sum up the facts to which the -- each and every witness is
21 going to testify. So that's the Rule. This is not something said by the
23 one fact mentioned by you that is note in the summary each time he will
24 be on his feet to tell you have not complied with your obligation.
25 Therefore, in the future do list all the facts in your summaries. That
1 will be, you know, gaining time, saving time for everybody.
2 MR. KARNAVAS:
4 A. Yes.
6 on fuel prices, and it lists dinars, German marks, Croatian dinars. With
7 respect to the first list of dinars, are they -- where are they from?
11 proceeding on, and I thought the Court made it quite clear. I thought
12 Judge Trechsel and the President made it quite clear these were outside
15 send this gentleman back at this point to his hotel. I can prepare
17 that. But I find it rather curious that here's somebody who was the
18 president of the Executive Council. Now he's talking about the situation
19 in Jablanica and members -- some members of the trial bench simply do not
21 and the Defence is being accused of not having complied with the Rules.
24 prejudiced. That's the real issue. How are they being prejudiced by
25 this? But since we have Judge Trechsel shaking his head with virtually
2 point.
11 the ones that are not in the summary, do disclose to the Prosecution
12 tonight at the latest the points that were not in the summary but are to
13 be found in the documents or in the document that you have the list of
15 your topics will be, and you'll have the whole night to prepare for it.
17 don't have my summary in front of me, and based on that -- I mean, this
19 intentional like some may assume. I just don't have my summary here, and
23 therefore I suggest that we adjourn for the day. I can then prepare a
24 more detailed summary for the Prosecution and have it to them hopefully
2 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, Your Honour, not to belabour the matter,
7 That's what the Rules require, it's what the Chamber ordered. Your
9 Prosecution on the 31st of March, 2008, not at midnight the night before
12 Mr. Karnavas is in violation of the Rules, which he is, more than six
13 months late, more than six months late, I will not have that date to the
16 MR. KHAN: Your Honour, once again I can just suggest that Your
20 application for additional time can be made. It's a matter that can be
1 know that the Rules have not really been complied with, but we somehow
2 have to get through this trial. We still hope that the compliance will
6 connection with the -- with the expert opinion, and I think somehow we
8 MR. SCOTT: With due respect, Your Honour, the way to deal with
10 respect and with great respect, Judge Mindua my great respect to you,
12 Judge Trechsel my great respect. If the Chamber would enforce the Rules
13 once and for all and make it very clear that this would be solved, but
15 require but we'll excuse it this time and the next time and the next
16 time, and it's the always the Prosecution that is the loser in these --
17 Rule 65 ter (G) says nothing about prejudice. The obligation stands on
20 the way for the Chamber to deal with this issue is to make its ruling on
21 the summaries once and for all, make it very clear and make the Defence
24 has to run in at the last minute, but we'll have compliance for the rest
25 of the trial if the Chamber enforces the Rules now. Thank you.
2 course in drafting the Rules, the Judges of this Tribunal eschewed the
5 substantial breach, and in assessing the remedy, the remedy for a breach
7 decide on the Rules -- the best favor in a fair determination the master.
8 I understand it's quite palpable my learned friend is upset, and I'm not
9 trying to condone I'm not taking a partisan position here, but from the
10 way I think the Trial Chamber's ruling must be understood, it's been
12 Prosecution, because what could the prejudice be? The prejudice would --
13 the prejudice of course would be if they are taken by surprise and are
18 friend Mr. Scott can see it, and if at the time of reading it it is of
25 intention previously to use up any time, but I think matters have now
1 gone too far and we should have the positions of the other Defence teams.
2 I wish to pick up where Mr. Khan left off. I fully agree with him.
3 However, and I think this applies to every Rule as it does to Rule 64, we
4 must first have a fair interpretation. In itself the Rule means nothing.
6 that we can grasp its full meaning. What is its meaning? I think that's
8 appears and the point -- and this is to avoid surprise, to avoid any
9 traps being laid by one party for the other. Nobody can be allowed to
10 bring a witness without the other party knowing exactly what the witness
13 How could the OTP possibly have been surprised if, (a) in
15 of documents and in that list were also the documents that the Prosecutor
16 now claims is not in the summary? Does this mean that we actually have
18 six years ago. They know the case. The OTP know the facts or perhaps
19 they have not been acting conscientiously, or perhaps they at the time
22 and what each witness will be questioned about, then they must
1 you need to list all the facts that you will be asking a witness about.
3 also a list of documents. When talking about this witness this is also
4 something else his 92 bis statement the one that the witness provided to
5 them. Therefore the OTP know full well what this witness might or might
6 not be talking about. Hence I believe that the OTP's claim that it has
8 Let's not be naive about this. Let's not have the Rule read out
11 work.
13 line 24, Mr. Kovacic, you don't want to speak about Rule 64. You mean 65
19 this hour to ask questions which would have been very interesting and
20 which I cannot ask because we have a procedural problem. And I say it's
21 a pity both for the Prosecution and the Defence. This being said,
22 Mr. Karnavas is going to address the -- to send the list of items which
1 possible prejudice for the Prosecution, yes, he's right, but the question
4 The documents that have been contested up to now have concerned dinars,
6 don't know what the prejudice can be for a person who sees that the 98 is
8 case, and it's been for years that one should be knowing the case that
10 Perhaps for certain people it's a prejudice. For me it's not because I
11 discovered the document at the last minute. So the Chamber might also
13 future each time the Defence prepares a file, I need at least a fortnight
15 suffer prejudice with that. The trial will go on for years, at least 20
16 years.
19 avoid to lose time because all the time that is lost, more than 20 per
24 get to Mr. Scott as soon as the list in question, and therefore you might
2 MR. KARNAVAS: Yes, just briefly, Your Honour. We could send the
3 witness out at this point, and I could spend the next ten minutes in --
6 So, Witness, the hearing will resume tomorrow, tomorrow morning at 9.00.
7 Now you're going to leave -- now you're going to leave courtroom, and
12 nearly two hours now so you still have two hours and two minutes.
15 MR. KARNAVAS: Let me go back to the one issue that was into the
19 attention that he was the only non-Muslim there. At that point in time
20 when the meeting took place Mr. Izetbegovic concreting asked the director
21 of the hydroelectric plant whether they could cut off the electricity to
22 this area called Herceg-Bosna at which point in time the director said
23 yes that could be done and Izetbegovic said that's good. That was all
1 out based on the documents that we had presented to the Court and to the
3 documents, I think you've said it, Mr. President. Basically they all
4 reflect the fact that you have the use of the German mark, also the
7 official documents, and that was to show that at that point in time
8 people were using whatever was available to them under the circumstances.
9 With respect to the SDK, the Public Auditing Service, it's well
10 known that Jablanica was connected as every other municipality and every,
11 you know, locality to the central system which wasn't functioning and
13 So that deals with that segment. The next segment deals with
15 called it. Go you look at these documents these are all official
16 documents that we got from the municipality, they're rather very plain on
17 their face. They're talking -- these are steps that were taken by the
21 or less in the same fashion. Why? Because those were necessary measures
23 see even the very last document that was included, we have an order for
24 mobilisation and what was interesting was here is Dr. Cibo, a medical
25 doctor, who is mobilising from the age of 15 up to the age of 65, and I
1 only pointed that out because as I recall two and a half years ago the
2 issue was the age of mobilization. We see 18, sometimes 17, sometimes
5 if you read them, they very plainly talk about what was happening at the
6 time.
8 authorities, that is the War Presidency and the executive the documents
9 are laid out in a chronological order again to give the Trial Chamber a
11 that he held and certain decisions that were issued. They're rather
12 plain on their face. At some point we get to the issue of Cibo. He's
13 been here -- he's been mentioned on numerous occasions, and, yes, we will
19 may recall, this gentleman talked about -- about Jablanica, and of course
3 of Okruzi, which is the districts. That issue has already come up, its
7 documents at one point. Some we will address through motion, but what we
11 commandeering, wood, and flower stuff, but it's only from Croats. That's
12 what the witness will say, that while they were commandeering and while
13 they were expropriating, it was only from the Croats and not from the
16 goes to our overall concept and theory which was well understood by the
25 instance 1D 01483. It shows here that Dr. Cibo is now commandeering the
7 The next issue deals with the camps. Now, certainly the
8 Prosecution should know all about this issue because the gentleman was --
9 was not only taken to a camp but he was tortured. He had a terrible
11 hospital. This is where he went and they refused to examine him because
12 of his particular situation. That's when he was put under slave labour
13 as he put it.
20 rather self-evident.
2 the gentleman, and I assume they would know about this chronology because
3 for years the gentleman worked for the office of the -- the Office of the
7 And then finally the last is his certificate of release from the
8 camp.
10 will have time to get to, and that deals with the issue of refugees, and
11 again if you look at them, that's merely to demonstrate how the -- the
12 refugees were coming and how they were going, and again we heard some
13 testimony that refugees went straight to Croatia. Again, that was their
14 wish. That's how they ended up there. Albeit this is the timing of
17 the refugees were accommodated in Jablanica at one point where the Croats
19 family -- families in their own apartments to the point that some of them
22 was housing nine. He will recount one time when Croats were brought to
23 the Museum and the little boy from the family came back and said, "Mama,
24 I just went down and tried to beat up some Ustasha." And the mother kind
25 of told him to hush because after all he was saying this in the presence
4 Community -- there was this joint criminal enterprise, and what the
5 Croatian Community of Herceg-Bosna was all about and how it fits into
7 joint criminal enterprise, the notion that there was this territory, that
11 fact, we see nothing of the sort happened. They pitched an idea. It was
15 and I will try to put it in writing and -- and frankly let me say again
16 with all due candour when I came here today, now, maybe I misread the
18 with my obligations as far as the summaries go. Now, some may disagree.
20 that I didn't need to supplement any more, were aware I was going to go
23 if I've caused them any grief. I will certainly endeavour in the future
1 more so that we don't have this recurrence, and I apologise to the Bench
2 for wasting more procedural time. It certainly wasn't intended but I can
3 assure you we're doing our best to become as we possibly can be so that
4 we can provide the evidence that you need in order to make a fair
5 determination in this case and I thank you very much for granting me this
8 stop because now we've gone beyond the time. You spoke of next witness.
9 I'm looking at the list of documents for the next witness. We've got 373
11 exhibits. So you will have to sort out your exhibits, because there is a
12 great number of these exhibits which you'll have to sort out since you
14 tender about 80 to a hundred. Here you've got 373, which will cause a
15 problem.
17 and act on the statement you've made and then things will go much better,
25