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I’M A PROJECTION OF OTHER PEOPLE’S


FEARS OF THEIR BODIES FAILING THEM.

13 BILL
SHANNON

05 “ I HAD NO IDEA WHAT I WAS


SIGNING UP FOR” APR
23 “ WHEN OLD THOUGHT PATTERNS ARISE,
YOU HAVE TO ADDRESS THEM THAT VERY MOMENT ” 2011
CONTENTS TIPS
05
DIVE RIGHT IN
Doc Hendley
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13
WHAT’RE YOU LOOKING
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AT?
Bill Shannon

23
EXPERIENCE
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IS THE TEACHER
Jacqueline Wales

32
LEARNED OPTIMISM
Tina Shah

39
THE RIGHTSIDE OF
IRRATIONAL
Dan Ariely
Ishita Gupta Publisher
Matt Atkinson Executive Editor
Ben Currie Senior Editor fearlessstories.com
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“ It is never too late to be what you might
have been.”

George Eliot
DIVE RIGHT IN
DOC HENDLEY


I really do believe that
you can be anybody


and change the world.

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6 FEAR.LESS
I was a bar tender from
2002 to around 2004, play-


ing music in clubs before
I started Wine to Water, the It looked to me as if the bar folks
weren’t given another chance by
organization I currently run.
I’d play guitar, butcher some
old songs, and by the end


of the night no one really
cared how I sounded anyway the church crowd.
- probably thought I was
Johnny Cash or something.
I was finishing up my degree people could relate to each The church crowd kept the stayed up and wrote down
at North Carolina State in other and help each other bar crowd at an arm’s length the idea for the organiza-
Raleigh in communications, through hard times, as well though, because although tion, Wine to Water. I had
and I wasn’t interested in as celebrate during good they had families and work, written down the name
working 9-5 for a big com- times. I realized I wanted to beyond that they just had even before I had any idea
pany. Frankly, I didn’t even do something around that the bar. It looked to me that lack of clean water was
know what communications scene, that sense of com- as if the bar folks weren’t an enormous world issue. I
majors did. Only later on in munity -- not simply bar given another chance by the remember writing, “Why wa-
life, after I started Wine to tending and playing music church crowd. I wondered, ter? What’s the big deal with
Water and begun speaking -- I wanted to do more. I no- “If somebody created some- water?” It was that much of
publicly, did I find the value ticed the regulars who came thing for the bar crowd to a mystery to me. It kind of
in that degree! in, and they had normal serve and get involved in, fell onto the piece of paper
routine lives with their fami- how would they respond?” and then I began research-
REAPING WHAT YOU lies. They’d come into the That was when a very small ing; soon it became very
SOW bar and do the usual, but seed was planted in my clear why water. I learned
they didn’t have anything mind. that lack of access to clean
With the bar crowd, I loved actionable besides that to water was killing more
the whole scene, the night- do; they didn’t seem to have DARK AND STORMY children in the world than
life, the people. It was like a other options. BRAINSTORMING anything else, and that over
little community where you a billion people we’re affect-
have your regulars, people I likened it to church, where Then one night in Decem- ed. I started understanding
you see every day when the one great thing is the ber of 2003, it all sort of the conflict around water in
they come in after work. opportunity for people to came crashing down in my various parts of the world,
It was a community where give back through service. mind. I couldn’t sleep, so I and I just couldn’t under-

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stand how people had it in
them to pollute or take away
the planet’s most precious
resource, something that
people couldn’t live without.
I didn’t know any of these
facts. But after becoming
aware of them, I became
passionate about the topic
because no one was talking
about it; nobody even knew
about it; it wasn’t a public
issue where people were even
aware of the consequences.

I don’t really talk about


these details, I normally just
skim over them and say, “I
was tending bar and took
notice of the water crisis
and began to do some-
thing.” But the real story is
that I first wanted the group
of people at the bar to be
involved with something


I’d love to say that I sat down
bigger than themselves. The
idea of the organization
just came to me; I can’t take

and had a really in-depth plan, much credit for it. To be


honest I felt it was a bit of


a divine appointment, that
but it didn’t work that way at all. perhaps since the church
hadn’t done much to con-
nect with the group of peo-
ple I cared about and saw so

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often at the bar, that maybe
this was a way to connect
the church to that group of
people. So I had these two
groups: the bar crowd, who
didn’t go to church because
they felt judged and uncom-
fortable; and church crowd
who never stepped foot in
the bar. I just thought, “I
want to gray up this area as
much as I can.”

I consider myself a Chris-


tian, but I’m different in
the sense that I have varied
opinions from the norm,
from traditional religious
society. I was never one to sit
in church and simply believe
what the preacher told me.
I had to go back and look
it up myself; and often I
disagreed with what I was
told. That’s still how I am,
and it’s the driving force
behind everything that I do.
My faith plays a huge role;
but the fact of the matter is


I really had no idea what I was
that it plays itself out dif-
ferently than someone who


goes to church and believes
everything and relies only
on that. signing up for.

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I’d love to say that I sat
down and had a really in- want to make sure that if I
depth plan, but it didn’t give you this money it’s go-
work that way at all. At first ing to the water cause and
I thought, “All right, maybe nowhere else.” I was quiz-
I’ll throw an event at a bar zing him, so to speak, but
in Raleigh, and people will he turned it around on me
come and have a fun time. and asked, “Well, why are
I’ll give them drinks and see you even doing this? Why
if we can raise some money did you raise this money for
for water.” There was no free?” So I told him my story
agenda, like “Let’s do this and he said, “Why don’t you
every week.” It was more, keep your money and come
“Let’s see what happens.” It work for me?” He gave me a
took about a month to pull job right then and there and
together the first event but asked where I wanted to go.
it was surprisingly easy. We I said, “Just send me to the
got free wine and beer spon- place with the most need.”

“ I was never one to sit in church


sored, a DJ gave his time,
and volunteers donated I really had no idea what
everything else. Everything and simply believe what the I was signing up for; all I
we collected the first night,
around $6,000, was all profit preacher told me. I had to go knew was that he was going
to send me to a place where


toward the cause. It was a
big amount of money and
back and look it up myself I could learn more about
water. He said, “I’ll send you
made me think, “We can do to a country in the most
this again.” need; keep your money and
nications major, a bartender, organization already doing you’ll have to figure out how
The second time around, it a bad musician, I still had good work, and my parents to turn it into clean water
was crazy. We got another no idea how to do that! told me about Samaritan’s on your own.” He emailed
$6,000 and now we had a lot Purse in North Carolina, me about a month later
of people giving. Yet I still “SEND ME” an organization that drills saying that Darfur in Su-
wasn’t sure what to do with wells around the world. I dan was in really bad shape,
it and asked myself, “How in So I had this $12,000 and met with Kenny Isaacs who Samaritan’s Purse had no one
the world do I turn this into wondered what to do next. ran their water operations the ground there, and he
clean water?” As a commu- I thought of giving it to an and basically said, “Look, I asked if I’d be willing to go.

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I found that I just couldn’t
So in August of 2004, off I Initially, I got overwhelmed make water available a little wait.
went. when the professionals bit quicker than somebody
would tell me how to do sitting in an office trying to FACEBOOK AND TRUST
DARFUR work out there, as if that plan it perfectly.
knowledge only came from a
When I was in northern
When I got there, I didn’t book or manual. But I can’t Sometimes even larger or- Uganda, I had no idea what
realize how bad things were learn like that. I’m more of ganizations, under-funded was going on. Seeing how
in Darfur; there were only a doer. When I went out and as they are, will plan ev- bad it was and reading
about 230 aid workers on started doing things, it came erything to a ‘T’ writing stories online about how
the ground then, and now a lot easier than having grants perfectly to funders water was such a huge need
there are well over 12,000. people try to teach me. It like UNICEF AND USAID there, I decided I needed to
We were very new to the was trial and error. The first and wait for the money to be there. I saw something
people there and I was well I ever dug in Darfur is come. It might take months similar in Haiti, where there
completely new to my sur- still there, but there’s no before they could fix or drill was so much need and so
roundings. Once I got there water in it because I screwed a well. I’d go out and kind many things to be done, and
I was willing to help and do it up. I make mistakes like of hack at it, figure some- no one knew where to begin.
whatever they needed—water everyone else. But the differ- thing out. Two weeks later I I just felt compelled to do
or anything else. I did a lot ence is that I don’t sit and may not have a $10,000 well something. I don’t know if
of different things—from wait until I have everything drilled, but at least I’ve got it’s how I’m put together,
attending security meetings, perfect in my head before people out there digging but I don’t really do too
to helping with food distri- I do it. I’ll drill a well and with shovels and picks. It’s much thinking, I just try to
bution, to delivering plastic it gets water immediately two different styles and both do things. It is a bit nerve-
sheeting and mosquito nets. and other times I’ll mess up work, and I think there’s a wracking to think as you’re
and need to figure it out. need for both in this field. going along, “What am I
After a while, Samaritan’s Regardless, I believe I can
doing? How am I even going
Purse sent in more people, a
to get there?” And there are
security guy, and a full-time
a lot of crazy and odd things
food person, freeing me to


You can’t be afraid to
that happen along the way.
focus solely on water. UNI-
One time I ended up getting
CEF had someone who was
actually buy a plane ticket
an email from someone in
great to me, took me under
the Dominican Republic
his wing and gave me books


and go do something.
saying, “Hey, I can get you
on emergency response
into Haiti. My dad runs a
regarding water, and walked
radio station in the Do-
me through everything.
minican Republic and he’s

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11 FEAR.LESS
got a lot of connections.” or strong or require spe-
It was a Facebook message! cific training. In this type of
Here I am, trusting some- work, you also need other
one on Facebook who tells people to help complement
me he’ll airlift me in and I your skills along the way.
took his word for it. They When I began in Darfur, I
picked me up at the airport, worked with a great guy in
got me a helicopter, we flew the field, but we weren’t a
into Haiti, and I met people good fit because our ap-
doing great work. It’s gar- proach was too similar, we
bage when people say they didn’t have the breadth of
need a master’s degree in gifts necessary and were too
international development overwhelmed by the details.
or training if they want to
help. It’s an excuse that ends The one time I did start
up convincing people to do to worry was when I was
nothing. You can’t be afraid spending a lot of lonely
to actually buy a plane ticket nights in the desert by my- only to the water cause; and do we really do it?”
and go do something. May- self thinking and doing a I started thinking about
be that’s a little harsh and lot of praying, and it was the it very realistically. I went JUST GO
I wouldn’t necessarily do it first time in my life where home to North Carolina
exactly the way I did, but I felt like God was saying, and was pretty overwhelmed Wine to Water is still small,
I really do believe that you “All right. You’re about done still by everything I had seen and more effective due to
can be anybody and change with this here and it’s not abroad and the thought of our commitment; and we
the world. too long before you’re going forming an organization, are trying to focus as much
to have a family and wife.” but I went ahead anyway as possible on doing the
I don’t have a master’s It was only when I met my and started working on Wine work. We’ve been able to
degree, training, or special then girlfriend, now wife, to Water. We got an office in raise around $800,000 so
qualifications; I’m prob- did I start to worry about 2007 and we immediately far. The expense of travel
ably so normal that I’m a something happening to hired Annie Clawson, who and lodging for Western-
little bit abnormal. What I me. That’s when I began ended up being exactly who ers to go to various parts
had going for me was that to seriously consider what we needed, a perfect fit who of the world is immense,
I do stuff. I believe people it would mean to actually added all the skills I lacked so it’s much more effective
can become this way; you form Wine to Water, an orga- and who said, “Okay, you to spend time and money
don’t need to be born smart nization that was devoted have this great idea, but how with locals and then later on

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bring over volunteers who want to start an organiza- organization or a church?”
can become advocates of the tion in Ethiopia.” My first They believe they’ll need an
work when they come back question is, “Well, have you armed guard or church van.
home. What we tell people been there?” They’ll often But my best advice is to say,
who are interested in help- say, “No, but I’ve heard “Stop thinking so much
ing is to organize an event, about slave trafficking in because you’ll find reasons
have friends over to your Cambodia so I want to start not to go. Just go!”
house, pour some wine, and an organization.” What I
raise some funds for a cause. tell them next usually freaks
We have a special kit on our them out -- “Why don’t
website explaining how to you take some time, save up
host a fundraiser. money, get a plane ticket
and go there first?” That
People tell me, “I want to can scare them, “What do
get involved in this,” or “I you mean, ‘Go?’ With an

DOC HENDLEY
Doc Hendley is the founder and president of Wine to Water, which provides the
resources and technology for constructing wells and other clean water and sanitation
facilities in developing nations like India, Sudan, Ethiopia, Peru, Cambodia, Uganda,
and South Africa. Wine to Water responded to the 2010 Haitian earthquake by
providing a water purification system. In 2009 a panel of judges including Ted Turner,
Gen. Colin Powell, Elton John, and Whoopi Goldberg selected Hendley as one of
CNN’s top ten heroes of the year. To date Wine to Water has provided sustainable
clean drinking water to more than 25,000 people. Doc continues to play guitar and
perform in North Carolina.

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13

WHAT’RE YOU LOOKING AT?



Other people’s misgivings about


disability are stronger than yours.

An Interview with
BILL SHANNON

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Ishita: Was there a mo- er group of families, military
ment in your life where you people, and young Republi-
thought, “I’m going to use cans. I went over hoping to
my disability to be creative shift the focus, undermine
and turn it into a form of the fuzzy notion of America
expression”? trying to instill democracy. I
tried to manifest the essence
Bill: The disability? There of what it means to drop
was never really a time where bombs on people. I started
I stood outside of it. I was so foaming at the mouth and
young when I was faced with screaming blood-curdling
it that I immersed myself slogans, “We’re Number
into who I was. A kid does One!” “Kill Saddam!” Soon
that naturally. The whole the “Support our Troops”
notion that I ‘changed’ pro-war people began to
didn’t occur to me. To say, “I slowly edge away from me.
have this thing, and I have
to switch it,” assumes there IG: Why?
was a time where I consid-
ered it as something other B: I was manifesting the
than who I was. There was heart of what I was opposed
a whole process of engaging to. But I flipped it. I created
and revisiting my identity. onstrate against the war. wasn’t really communicat- a stronger representation
Working from the inside My parents were organizers, ing. I realized that to more of what it actually meant to
out was a natural occurring and very active around these effectively express my oppo- support the war. Some were
evolution. issues, and it occurred to me sition to the war, I had to go taken aback by it, but others
how fragmented everybody over to the other side, join joined in with my foaming
IG: This working from the was in having their own rea- the Pro-War demonstrators. and chanting. Somehow, we
inside out, how has that sons for opposing the war. I They’re waving their Ameri- turned this pro-war contin-
served you? didn’t feel connected. can flags and have yellow gent into a howling, blood-
ribbons, and their kids have thirsty mob.
B: Until recently it served IG: To the cause? Connect- signs like “Saddam is Evil,”
me quite well. Take the first ed to what? “Support America.” The IG: How did you pull it off,
gulf war, when I went to pro-war demonstrators were convince them you weren’t
Washington, D.C. to dem- B: I felt ineffective, that I cordoned off; it was a small- being ironic?

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You’re forced to be creative due to


the demands of the situation.

B: I was sharpening. I was what they were opposing.


immersing myself, trans-
forming, to get through to IG: Is there something
what I felt was expressing similar to that spontaneity
opposition by embodying when you dance – either
someone completely insane with crutches or a skate-
-- essentially trying to ex- board? Is there a balance
press notions of murder and between performing and
hate, but expressing it like a who you inherently are?
performance artist. I wanted
to get the guys yelling, “Kill B: It’s a similar philosophy,
Saddam” to understand altering the place where I’m
that. Before long, they were stuck. At the demonstration
like, “Wait a second this is I was stuck, ineffectual. As
getting out of hand.” a performer whose work is
physical, there’s this public
IG: So you were screwing image of me flying around
with their heads by going on a skateboard and danc-
in the opposite direction. ing la-Dee-dah, and the
You went directly to the truth is that comes at a fair-
heart of it to express the ly serious price. I don’t have
emotion? public work that explores
the pain element of what I
B: Yeah, but it also did do. That’s sort of who I am.
something else; it created a
kind of cipher for the anti- IG: Is that something
war demonstrators to have you had to face when you
a visceral relationship with transitioned from being

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on crutches to being able-


bodied? I know there were
a lot of emotions at that I went over hoping to shift the focus,
time – did you ever ask
“Am I really who I think I undermine the fuzzy notion of America


am?”

B: That was a big question


trying to instill democracy.
for me. I never mentally sep-
arated from them as a way
of seeing the world. I was done if I hadn’t discovered you’re getting is not the There are other derogatory
physically off of crutches hip-hop and skateboarding truth. People don’t want to points of reference -- like
during my teenage years but and urban arts. I would be face things. I’m a bellwether a high “drool factor” and
even while appearing able- walking on the street and of other people’s projections things like that. There’s
bodied I was conscious of a see somebody reading the of their own fears, of their different slang within the
weak leg and a strong leg, a paper and they wouldn’t own bodies failing them. It’s disabled community. If you
shorter leg and a longer leg, look at me. But as soon as very human. People are cut think about it, it’s actu-
a flexible leg and a stiff leg. I I got past them a bit they differently and all the other ally really natural. You have
mentally guarded my weak- would turn around and aspects of identity that roll light-skinned blacks, dark-
er, more vulnerable leg and look. As a kid I knew this into it have an effect. skinned African-Americans.
formed many of movements was happening, but the In high school for instance
around those limitations people around me wanted IG: I was surprised when the light-skinned girls were
even within the framework to suspend the notion of I read the phrase “Cream the queens of the school.
of appearing able-bodied. my spectacle until after I of Cripples.” What’s your They would always make
passed, as if I didn’t know relationship with that fun of darker skinned girls.
I was lucky to have a lot of I was a spectacle. When I phrase? Even in that gradation
strong cultural influences was seven years old I totally there’s always going to be
right when I got off my knew what was happening. B: It’s a derogatory term, issues of class, race, and gen-
crutches to delve into and I knew that as soon as I but carries a different con- der and all these imposed
express my identity, though walked passed them, they’d notation within the disabled and irrational hierarchies.
even when I wasn’t using look - so I would turn right community than it does
crutches I didn’t stand out- after I passed them and in the general community. IG: Are you in chronic pain
side of the context of dis- look back. Catch people It defines the gradations with Legg-Calve Perthese
ability. Those forms saved off-guard. It was kind of an of who is what - the extent Syndrome?
me from what I would have early education: everything of people’s disabilities.

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IG: Doesn’t breaking and


B: My analogy is: You’re
walking in a desert and you
have a glass of water. You
skateboarding highlight
your disability? They help
When I was seven
have to walk all day and if
you guzzle all your water at
you express yourself won-
derfully and it’s grown years old I totally knew


the beginning of the day,
you’re screwed.” So the
into a personal style, but
has it ever challenged you what was happening.
equivalent is that my water to see your physical limita-
would be going on my skate- tions in that way?
board and going for a skate B: Well, I didn’t see myself as was a relief.
or dancing for an hour, and B: When I first found those that. The world did.
that’s taken all my water forms, I wasn’t using crutch- People with disabilities are
for the day. I don’t have any es but I still related to what IG: To the world’s percep- still playful and you don’t
water for the rest of the day. it meant to have a disability. tion of being able-bodied - have any misgivings about
So it depends on what my Again, I never stood outside What was that like for you? it. Other people’s misgiv-
pacing is through the day of it. I was still limited in ings about it are stronger
and how I use my legs. terms of my execution, even B: It was a relief on a num- than yours. You find your-
not being on crutches, and ber of levels. I didn’t have to self constantly breaking the
bringing crutches back into deal with people’s projected rules in terms of others’
those forms was a slow and narratives. That’s really notions of who you should
evolving process of realizing, the biggest change. I grew be, and it becomes comfort-
together with the technical up as a spectacle, always able, and it becomes second
evolution of the crutches, like the center of attention nature. Nowadays it’s come
to keep pushing myself. To and not just because of the to the point where I really
make it something else. I braces but also because of don’t care what other people
could no longer actually my character. The combina- think. At all. To a fault. If
skateboard like I used to, so tion of the two. So part of you ask my wife, “Is it great
I had to make it different. it also was the discovery of that Bill has no concept
It became a dancing - skate- the counter-culture helped of truly caring what other
boarding form, and that was me have a presence, to delve people think or how they
just what worked for me. into a style and a way to be. feel about who he is?” she
Even if I wasn’t getting the would say “No, that’s not a
IG: What did it mean to see same level of attention, I was plus, that’s a negative.”
yourself as an able-bodied just another kid -- which
person?

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B: Part of the change has to
IG: Why? You’re forced to be creative style.
do with getting older and
due to the demands of the
not feeling threatened by
B: Because she can’t take me situation. Not literal sur- IG: Was there a point
outside influences. I know
to a party. vival, like life or death, but where you couldn’t find a
who I am at this point, my
social survival, peer-group creative solution to some-
connection to the juice, my
IG: Have you been that way survival. That type of pat- thing?
essential creativity if you
your whole life? tern started super-early, on
will, is not going to fall
the playground—I’m going B: It was later in life where I
apart if I look at art. I’m not
B: At the Art Institute of to either come up with some became disconnected, really
going to let it get into my
Chicago I pretty much creative solution or I’m go- lost. Basically, it was because
stream of consciousness.
carved my own way – I ing to be left behind by my of the notion of ‘owning
I feel like subconsciously
wasn’t in a particular pro- peers. Repeatedly having to something.’ I owned being
those things change you.
gram. In all my institutions do that throughout my early on crutches. I owned my op-
I feel like there’s a lot of
-- from failing high school childhood up until I was position to the war. I made
information out there and
because I thought it was 11 or 12 years old fed im- it mine. With my other
knowledge is an important
a waste of time, to failing mediately into skateboard- work, like video installation
thing - and I’ve had it - and
summer school after I failed ing and breaking -- two art, that work was mine. It’s
my knowledge has been
high school. I just did what cultural forms that you have unique to my process and
street knowledge, gaining
I wanted to do; and it can to establish a distinct path that sense of being singular
knowledge from experience.
be problematic because to achieve. There’s no team has been a theme for me.
Through lived knowledge,
I grew up that way. I call sport, there’s no structure Originality and not looking
not from showing up at
it “creative necessity.” It’s to climb - it’s make your around me. I hardly look at
some place and looking at
creativity as a survival tool, own path, referencing others anything, as far as going to
something.
which is a common thread along the way, but certainly art openings or museums. I
in hip-hop, where you have the true artists are the ones actively shy away from look-
IG: Not passive experi-
to create something out of who were independent and ing at art that might influ-
ence…?
nothing in order to survive. had their own territory and ence me too much, though
lately I’ve been looking at
B: Not by design, it’s by fate.
more video art than I used
Allowing those things to


to.
People with disabilities
happen and learning and
gaining from something
IG: Why is it slowly chang-


that - I didn’t have to plan
are still playful... ing? Why the initial resis-
tance to it?
it – it’s naturally who I am.
But it’s limiting because you

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have one path in life, and


if you decide to, you can
broaden your horizons and I grew up as a spectacle, always the center of
broaden your spectrum. If attention and not just because of the braces but
I had never stepped out of


my world to go look at other also because of my character.
things and tried to take in
new forms and other artists’
work, it wouldn’t have been he wrote all these different
the same. It’s a way to have observations of sociologi-
a dialogue with the world. I cal construction standing
know artists who “make it” on the outside of life and
and they reference all these categorizing everything.
philosophers and different He’s someone who I do talk
artists and historical figures about a bit, actually. If you
in their work, and they’re look at my work, you have
very referential and their to imagine it, and this is
work is a take-off and mix coming from a friend who’s
of all these influences that known me for almost 20
people can put a handle on. years. He said: “Bill, your
I don’t give anyone handles. work is like a pie, and you
I don’t have any handles. I’m have all these different slices
not using Marx or Brecht or and directions and people
Shakespeare or whoever. The look at you through one or
nature of my work comes the other slice. There’s just
through my path in life. too much information. Too
many different divisions in
Even when I come across what you do for most people
someone whose work is to want to engage at all. Cre-
similar to mine, for example ating momentum and push
there’s a man, Irving Guff- from any particular direc-
man, who wrote about how tion is weakened by the fact
people put on a big per- that there’s all these other
formance in life, wherein directions pulling away.”
everything is pageantry, and Nothing evolves quickly. It’s

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B: Like genuinely profound


fear? The worst thing that
can happen is that you can
die, and I’m not scared of
that. Every other fear is
undermined by lack of fear
of death. I realized that in
the past few years, I’ve come
to accept that I’m not really
scared to die anymore, or
totally scared at least. And
that comes from being really
scared at one point in time
in my life – going through
a challenging time where
I felt lost. But I’ve realized
that fear doesn’t change the
situation. You’re scared or
you’re not. It’s still there.
You’re still there. I’m not
going to be scared; I’m not
running away. I’m here and
like each thing creeps along, things. There’s no bar, no work, then you’ll know what that’s it. That’s the simple
and the only way to abso- Archimedean point. You I’m talking about. I’ve been truth of it. I’m here and
lutely get things done is to might say the standard is through a phase where I whatever it is, it is.
be sure to only do work that making money, but that’s had a really hard time being
has a deadline. not a real measure of suc- productive and I was stuck IG: Some think that you
cess. It’s only a measure of in this spot of trying to should do what you fear
IG: Do you have fear of comfort. As far as achiev- get through a challenge. I most…
failure – as a visual or per- ing in the arts, I feel like wasn’t able to do anything.
formance artist? I’ve been very successful in B: No. I don’t think fear is
creating a body of work. If IG: What’s the first thing a compass. If I fear some-
B: Well, I don’t think there you’re an artist, and you you do in a fearful situa- thing most, it doesn’t mean
is a way to fail at how I do have a hard time making tion? I should necessarily do it as

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opposed to releasing that the truth, the reality of life. nally. Once you recognize
same fear. A lot of people be- that, you’re able to turn the
have out of fear, mistaking IG: That’s the crux of it. Is corner and stop digging
it for politeness - I’m scared there something you can a hole for yourself. You’re
I’ll upset someone so I won’t touch upon that’s been a filling up that hole, actually.
say this because I don’t want positive thing coming out There’s pain in that process,
to create a problem. The of your experiences? and while the ghost of the
bigger problem is not be- “other you” will always be
ing able to speak honestly B: It’s a hard process be- with you, the gift is that
because of other people’s cause as an artist you’re you’re a new person.
limitations on dealing with battling with yourself inter-

BILL SHANNON
Bill Shannon is a performance artist who has choreographed his pieces using his customized rocker-
bottom crutches as well as a skateboard. As a young boy he was diagnosed with Legg-Calve-Perthese
Syndrome. A graduate of The Art Institute of Chicago, he has traveled throughout the United States
and the world, garnering acclaim for his unique creative energy and edgy sensibility that combines
elements of hip-hop, street dance, social criticism, and modern dance. In 1996 Shannon moved to NYC
and immersed himself in the art, dance and skate cultures of Brooklyn and Manhattan, expanding his
work to multimedia video installations, ensemble dance incorporating crutches and skateboards, and
theatre. His awards are numerous and include a John Simon Guggenheim Fellowship. He now lives in
Pennsylvania and farms, blogs, and continues to perform. He may be best known to the general public
for a dance sequence he performed for the VISA “Life Flows Better” television commercial in 2009.

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We rise to the level at which


we are willing to expand to.

EXPERIENCE
IS THE TEACHER
An Interview with
JACQUELINE WALES

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24 FEAR.LESS


The challenges that come
up in my life, I am perfectly


equipped to meet them.
girl. My past was telling
me to fear, in my heart and disrespectful, and he took
mind I knew, “She will leave it out on our family. I was
me before I leave her.” And held to very high standard
I made a commitment to at an early age by a man who
see it through, my life with didn’t have any standards at
her, to do what it would all. There was regular physi-
take for her to grow up to cal abuse. When my mother
be a healthy individual. It was pregnant with her forth
Ishita Gupta: In your life- ally good enough. I’m good
was a powerful moment to child, my father said, “Have
coaching business “The enough no matter what.
understand I could choose this child and I will kill my-
Fearless Factor” you ask The challenges that come
what to do with my life. I self,” which led my mother
people what they can learn up in my life, I am perfectly
was thirty-five years old and to attempt to give herself
from a former alcoholic, equipped to meet them.”
my history was strewn with an abortion. My brother
global nomad, and late- People can learn how to stop
children I’d abandoned and was born severely develop-
blooming singer, who living in fear.
so much damage I’d left in mentally disabled. As the
got her black belt at 49 in
my wake. My feeling at this eldest I was expected to care
Shotokan Karate. What IG: Do you recall the time
moment was “Enough, it for him, partly because my
do your clients learn from in your life when you de-
has to stop.” mother had to work. So I
you? cided to stop living in fear?
grew up dodging my father’s
IG: Can you tell us about alcoholic rages and expend-
Jacqueline Wales: I help JW: Well, once I was sitting
your history…How did you ing enormous energy taking
people connect with what in my therapist’s office. I
come to that conclusion? care of my brother.
is true. People can find and was in chaos, craziness, hav-
use that part of themselves ing left two children behind,
JW: My father was an out-of- IG: What happened as you
that already knows, “I am re- and pregnant with a baby
control alcoholic, angry and became an adult?

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JW: It translated into self- old thought patterns arise,

“ Enough, it has to stop.



abusive behavior. I quit whatever they happen to be,
school by 15 and got into whether it’s “I’m stupid”
drugs and alcohol. I got or “I’m not worth it,” you
pregnant before the age of have to address it at that
20, and gave up the baby for the first person in my fam- me to say “Enough. Let’s see very moment. You have to
adoption. I didn’t want to ily to go to college but I what I can do differently.” keep committing to yourself
raise her the same way I’d didn’t know what was gong over and over again, and it
been raised. I married the to happen. I was flying by IG: When you were in AA can be painful. A tremen-
first guy who said, “I love the seat of my pants, and battling alcohol, it wasn’t dously powerful question
you” and immediately had it was an instance of step- your drinking, it was to ask yourself is, “What am
another child to replace the ping off the face of a cliff. your thinking that over- I willing to give up?” We
baby I had given away. It Here’s the thing about fear: whelmed you? do have to give something
was disastrous. I finally left most people will wait until up in order to get what we
Edinburgh for London in their backs are against the JW: Change your think- want, whether a person is
my teens; I was following a wall before they move. I was ing and change your life. In dealing with a damaging
destructive path with alco- desperate, desperate to get five years of AA I realized relationship, a career that’s
hol and drugs. At twenty- out of what was going on drinking is about behavior. not working out, or simply
nine, I set off from London in England, so obviously I It wasn’t really about my is asking if there is more to
with a backpack and $800 wasn’t clear about the rami- drinking, it was my think- what they really want.
to go to Australia. I left my fications of my choices. ing. I give credit to a lot of
son behind with his father, people who showed up at IG: Do we delude ourselves
feeling a desperate need to IG: What happened when different times in my life into believing something’s
get away from everything. you got to San Francisco? and said, “There is another right when we’re just ratio-
On my way, I somehow way to do this.“ I always nalizing?
ended up in San Francisco JW: I didn’t have much say in my coaching prac-
and thought I’d stay there money, a place to stay, or a tice “Are you coachable? JW: Something I do when
a while and then eventually job. Somehow I knew there Will you be able to listen
head for Sidney. was something better for and take advice?” That has


me, I stopped on a beach in been my saving grace over
IG: Did you have a plan at California, and had this in- the years. I work with my
I was following a
that point? tuitive moment, feeling sure clients not just on breaking destructive path
I was about to experience habits, but replacing them with alcohol and


JW: I wanted to be a teacher; a seismic shift in my life. It with new habits. It takes 21
I had finished a degree, took another five years for days to work on it. When drugs.

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here.” It was interesting to


Here’s the thing about fear: most
see how much our bodies,
mine in particular, retained
so much of my emotional
people will wait until their backs are pain. It was just sitting in
my body. As humans, we


against the wall before they move. carry a lot of our emotional
charges in our bodies and
we’ve got to find a way to
release that.

I’m in a negative state of rest of the day and see what handled the adoption of my IG: And fear?
mind is to ask: “Is this the happens to your thinking. first child said, “You know,
truth?” Is this the truth of It’s about reprogramming you’re smarter than you JW: I was at a workshop
the matter? When you’re our brains. People say, “I’m think you are.” She arranged given by Sam Keen, who
spinning your wheels and too old to change.” That’s for an IQ test, and I got a wrote Fire in the Belly, and he
you’re feeling like a ham- nonsense. We’re constantly good result, and she said, said, “Fear is the sharp edge
ster in a cage, and you’ve in a process of change. The “See? That proves it. Go get of excitement.” I got chills
got this thinking going on brain itself, as you probably your degree.” She was the when I heard that because I
about whether you’re good know, is very plastic. We first person to guide me in thought, “All my life I’ve felt
enough, slow it down and know that you can rewire that direction. But there
ask if the feeling is really the circuits to do things dif- were many people along the
true. The answer, nine times ferently. That’s what I do in way. I had a psychologist
out of ten, is no. When my coaching - help people who I ran into when I was
negative stuff comes up rewire their circuits. about 26, he started ask-
for my clients, I ask them ing me questions about my
to create index cards and IG: Did anyone do that for background. I remember
write it down, but on the you? clearly when it got down to
other side write the positive the emotional stuff, it was
things. Put the compari- JW: Yes, I needed mentors to as if a steel door came down.
son in front of your eyes. It show me how to do it, be- I wasn’t letting anybody in.
becomes a matter of which cause I didn’t know. Coming Same thing when I got my
side you’d rather go with. from a working-class back- first massage, the woman
Keep the positive side of the ground, I didn’t think I had told me, “You’re like an
card in front of you for the any brains. The woman who armadillo. I can’t even get in

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that kind of extraordinary bed with me every single
spiritual, emotional, physi- day, and I thought “Can I do
cal support throughout my this right? Can I do it jus-
life. My husband, who I’ve tice? Am I capable?” I need-
been married to for 30 years, ed the attention. I craved
is the one who saw me long attention. People had to
before I saw myself. keep telling me I was good,
“You’re good. You have to
IG: You met him in San keep doing this.” Then a
Francisco? friend came up and said
“You’ll never be okay unless
JW: Yes. About three months you fill the hole inside of
into my stay there we met you.” Now, as a professional,
through a mutual friend. We I get to fill the hole in others
were two people who were and that is the ultimate gift.
the least likely to succeed. It’s about giving something
We had a very fine relation- back and believing in your-
ship until I got pregnant self because you don’t need
and said, “I don’t know if I something or someone else

“ Drinking is about behavior.



can do this.” He said, “You to fill you up
can do this. Don’t worry
about it. We will do this.” IG: Where is the line
There we were and the jour- between getting support
JW: I wrote my first short ney began. He’s always been from others and relying on
like I was walking a razor’s story and my writing teacher behind me the whole way, oneself?
edge.” For years I called asked, “How long have you and God bless him, he still
myself a “Chaos junkie.” I been doing this?” I said it keeps showing up for me. JW: That transformation
loved creating drama - it was was my first story. She said, is something nobody can
the way I got my kicks. I’d “Get out of here!” It gave teach you. I can say it until
create drama despite know- me a sense that there was IG: We’re you afraid that I’m blue in the face, “You’re
ing how destructive it was in more I could do. Each place you would fall back into really great; you’re doing
the long run. along the road there’s been old patterns? fine,” but until you really
someone who said ‘There’s start tapping into your sense
IG: How did you start writ- more that you can do.’ I’ve JW: It was on my mind every of self, your belief in your-
ing? been very blessed to have single day. Fear got out of self, it doesn’t matter. You

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Because the discipline and tion. You have to take ac-


follow-through that I re- tion. The problem is people
I give credit to a lot of people who ceived helped me deal with will sit and wallow. They
showed up at different times in my changing situations, which
at times were fairly radical
allow their head to run the
show. When you take action
life and said, ‘There is another way in my family life. And Mar- to step out of whatever limi-


to do this.’ tial Arts helped me bring tations you’re confronted
out the best in myself – so I with, that’s when you start
could do the same in other to see the action is making
situations then as well. a difference. When I started
must reach into your core, always wanted to try this, my business of being a
into your belief in yourself. I think I’ll give it a shot.” I IG: Personally, Martial motivational speaker and
It’s a critical point of con- was like a duck to water; I Arts - the discipline and ac- spreading the word about
tentment. You connect to ended up with a red belt in tion –really helped combat the capability to get beyond
that place within you where Tae Kwon Do before shift- negative thoughts and take the fear, it was a very fearful
you know you’re equipped ing disciplines and getting action… time for me. I felt, “Who are
to handle what comes your a black belt in Shotokan you to get out there and tell
way. Karate on my 49th birthday. JW: You just nailed it: ac- people how to deal with this
People looked at me and
IG: Along with profession- wondered, “How could you
al singing in Europe and do that on your 49th year?”
writing fiction, you also My only response was, “How
got into Martial Arts? could I not?”

JW: As a Martial Artist, IG: What did Martial Arts


there’s a process which in- do for your writing and
volves discipline and focus. coaching?
It involves commitment and
follow-through. All of these JW: It’s something I’m
elements are very much a passionate about and some-
good part of life. I learned thing that inspires me. The
that when I took up Martial strength that I learned from
Arts at the age of 43, after many years of doing Mar-
watching my kids doing Tae tial Arts was that it perme-
Kwon Do. I thought, “I’ve ated everything in my life.

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way I did in Martial Arts to also sustainable?


stay on task, to see where it
When old thought patterns arise, needs to go and to follow JW: When people say to me,
whatever they happen to be, whether through all the way so that “I don’t have any money”
I got the results I was look- it’s not about the money.
it’s ‘I’m stupid’ or ‘I’m not worth it,’ ing for. This year things are It’s about your attitude. So
you have to address it at that very going gangbusters and I find yes, you can be broke. You


I’m quite happy. can definitely be sitting
moment. there with 50 bucks in the
IG: Your credentials are bank and trying to figure
your life experiences… out how to make things
stuff?” It only became clear wrong turns, wasted money, work. It’s about learning
later on when I analyzed but eventually I found what JW: That’s exactly the con- to think past limitations to
it that really, every single I was looking for. One of the clusion I came to. After a see opportunity. Because
experience I had led me to things I say in my book, The couple of other people said, right now, there are a mil-
this point. I was 54 at that Fearless Factor, is failure is a “Are you kidding me? Look lion opportunities out
moment, and now I’m 58 huge issue for so many peo- back over this last fifty- there simply because there
years old. So at the age of ple. They don’t start because three years!” When I look at are too many people sit-
54 I’m thinking, “Okay, you they’re afraid to fail. Really, where I came from to where ting on the corner afraid
want to get out there and we’re all failing our way to I am now, I’m on a different to make a move. If you’re
talk to people about how success. If you understand planet. going to be entrepreneur-
to get beyond their fears. that we’re all failing our way ial or enterprising, you’re
Where are your credentials? to success then there’s only IG: What about a scarcity going to find the ways to
Where are your materials? one word you need to use mentality and fear of bad achieve what you need. I’ve
What do you have?” The when things don’t work out: financial situation - how always said in my life that
answer at that moment was, “Next. What’s next?” For me do we combine what we I’ve had enough to get by.
“Nothing.” But I knew I had that word “next” became love with something that is I’ve never had a point in my
a good idea and I thought important because at times
it was worth something. I it felt very fearful to think,
marshaled all that discipline “You’ve spent too much


and focus and that being money, you haven’t done A tremendously powerful question to
in the moment to realize, the right things, nobody’s ask yourself is, ‘What am I willing to


“What do you need to do coming, you can’t get any
here?” I made a lot of mis- clients, blah blah blah.” But give up?’
takes along the way, took I trained myself the same

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start playing. I then have to JW: “Believe in you” is really


Fear got out of bed with look at it and say, “Okay, so
what are you avoiding here?
a big one. “Believe in you.”
It was pointed out to me by

me every single day, ‘Can What is it that you’re afraid


to step into?” Once I’ve had
several people in the earlier
part of my change process

I do this right? Can I do it that conversation then it’s


time for me to take action to
that I had something im-
portant to share with the


justice? Am I capable?’ move beyond it. I won’t get
anywhere if I don’t take that
world and that I shouldn’t
hide from sharing it. When
first step. I started this business, I was
in a seminar once where I
life where I was completely you’re totally exhausted, IG: What’s been the most told people about my feel-
destitute. I have no fantasies because all your defenses are useful advice that has ing “small.” The instructor
about me being a bag lady. down.” I thought to myself, helped you? said to me, “Why do you
I know I’ll manage to find “That’s true. When we’re in want to choose that op-
something to work it out. an occasion of being really
I think that’s true for ev- challenged, your defenses
erybody. But when you give are down.” That’s when
in to that defeatism, when you find your real strength,
you give in to “I have no when you can really tap into
other options,” well, that’s your courage, when you
nonsense. There are always can tap into the possibili-
options. I’ll come back to ties that are there for you.
Martial Arts. You remember But you have to be willing
in your training when you’d to take that action of tak-
have times when you really ing the next step. I don’t
didn’t want to do another run and hide from my fear
routine or another repeti- anymore. I don’t try to bury
tion. Your sensei is standing it or pretend it’s not there. I
there going, “Again. Again.” don’t try to create diversions
And you want to kill him, for myself. When fear shows
because you have no energy up, for me, it’s usually an
left. It’s like, “I’m done.” My uncomfortable feeling in my
teacher once told me, “You stomach and then maybe
do your best work when the radio in my head will

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tion?” Then only did it hit when fear shows up, then we
home. Why did I want to can rise to our fullest exten-
choose that option? We rise sion.
to the level at which we are
willing to expand to. If I can
get people to understand
that fear is an option, that
moving beyond the fear is
also an option and that it’s
about the choices we make

“ Right now, there are a million opportunities out


there simply because there are too many people


sitting on the corner afraid to make a move.

JACQUELINE WALES
Jacqueline Wales is a life coach and motivational speaker who lives and works in New York City
and Bali. She began her writing career in her 40s, eventually authoring five books including a
memoir, When the Crow Sings. Her latest venture, Fearless Factor, lays out unique techniques
for personal growth. She’s a red belt in Tai Kwon Do and a black belt in Karate. She is a frequent
guest on radio and television and has appeared on ABC Business Weekend, Be Happy Dammit
on Sirius Radio and PBS Night Business Report.

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LEARNED OPTIMISM


Putting your brain in another
place is a step in the right


direction …

An Interview with
TINA SHAH

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33 FEAR.LESS
definitely an interesting about my heritage, perhaps
experience growing up. wanted to find a box to put
me in. I remember distinctly
I: Did you experience overt in Alabama we had a Na-
racism? tive American unit, and I
remember having to explain
TS: I wouldn’t say it was that I essentially wasn’t a
overt, but there was diffi- part of that heritage. One of
culty for people to compre- my core passions is educa-
hend where we came from, tion because I think my
who we were. I found I had teachers didn’t really under-
to tell my story in many stand me. I was a very curi-
different ways from an early ous child and asked many,
Ishita: You’ve had varied chance to spread ideas and age because people always many questions; maybe I
life experience, great op- build great things. I’ve lived sought explanations, ways weighed on their patience a
portunities but challenges in a lot of different places, to categorize me. That was a bit. Only the best teachers
as well. which helps put things into new and somewhat frustrat- made it through this pro-
perspective – I’m from Texas ing experience to have to cess!
Tina: Though life can be but lived in Alabama and explain myself to teachers,
hard, there are certain gems Mississippi, moved to Chi- to friends, to acquaintances. I: Talk about your fam-
that make it worthwhile. For cago to attend Northwest- It wasn’t really as much ily business — didn’t you
many people it’s those clos- ern, then to Copenhagen about my Indian back- start very young in sales?
est to them, their families, and Tokyo before getting to ground as much as it was How did that initial sales
their friends and relation- New York City. about a philosophy about, experience help shape your
ships. For others it’s their “Where is this child coming personality?
life’s projects, life’s teach- I: What was it like growing from?” On the surface they
ings, or some big dream or up in the South? wanted to understand more TS: I was quite introverted
idea. In my life there has
been a lot of volatility from TS: There were issues of
struggles within a family integration for a while— my


business to moving around father spent a lot of time on That was a new and somewhat frustrating
the South, but within all of the gulf rigs off the coast of
these contexts, there have Mississippi – but the im- experience to have to explain myself to


been rewarding relation- migrant experience, coming teachers, to friends, to acquaintances.
ships and growth, and the from an Indian family, was

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as a child because I was
curious and tremendously I learned about dealing with rejection; to have
reflective. I kept a journal
and really thought about this internal rejection win-tracker or bidder where
how I was going to live my
life. I was given responsibil- I measured how many times I was rejected and


ity early on. In our tradition,
if you’re the eldest child how many times I won.
you tend to take ownership
of a family and its longev-
ity - the family business, so I was an apprentice who rejection, it somehow fuels
siblings, and parental care and going to the movies learned on the spot. a critical point to winning,
later on. With that men- and didn’t really understand oddly enough. And for my
tality, I was internal and that I was being conditioned I: Were there any down- age at that time, it was a lot
thoughtful about things. for the conversations I’d sides to it? of rejection. When you’re
Firstly, I learned that sales have later on in my pro- an entrepreneur and you’re
experience is the bread and fessional career. I became TS: I probably could have trying to gain support for
butter of a business. When more extroverted, taking my participated in more high ideas, executing, gaining
you have a software service internal dialogue outside of school activities and been funding, you do face rejec-
and no clients, managers me. I realized I derived even more connected there. I did tion, but the best entre-
become quite resourceful more energy from interac- join the speech and debate preneurs embrace it. They
in trying to figure out how tion than I thought. team, and played basket- realize it’s just a part of the
to get sales talent. The sales ball. At the time I didn’t process. I’ve come to believe
talent was in my family. I I: You talked to clients in really see a downside when that in hardship there is per-
was pretty much put on the between calculus class? it was happening. But a spective.
spot and volunteered to sell good thing about learning
software to clients. Trying to TS: Yes. the business early was that I I: Did it become any easier
sell something increasingly learned about dealing with once you had experience
complicated in a very sim- I: That’s crazy. And this rejection; to have this in- with it?
plistic manner really helped was at age 15, 16? ternal rejection win-tracker
me though; I learned how or bidder where I measured TS: When you’re that age,
to simplify and articulate a TS: Just about. My mother how many times I was re- things roll off quickly. Now
vision, which gave me con- ran the business but said, jected and how many times that I’m more seasoned
fidence. I was talking to cli- “There’s a definite need for I won. What happens is that in my career, what comes
ents in between math class young, vibrant sales talent” once you get an uptick in through is that I was actu-

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of rejection, I throw myself
ally building optimism in into an activity that’s as in-
myself when I was younger. tense as the rejection itself;
There are people that can like a counter-weight. For
tell you they’re an optimist me it’s basketball. Physi-
or a pessimist. They feel like cal exercise is always good
they’re naturally inclined because it builds endor-
to be one or the other. But phins that breed positive
I think there is a learned thinking. When in doubt
optimism. There’s an in- you can always go for some-
ner coaching we can do to thing physical. Things that
understand when there are you’ve done consistently
other factors affecting a are good to fall back on
decision. I trained myself in simply because you’re used
that thinking early. If there to doing them. If you start
is one thing an entrepreneur something new and don’t
can do, they can consciously follow through, you might
start thinking about their be prone to dejection on
orientation in life and how top of what you’re already
they can build more opti- TS: I stay positive through feeling. Trying new things
mism. Because you have to self to see how a situation is eastern techniques, like is good if you can maintain
be prepared for the tough unfolding and what factors meditation, deep breath- it, but things that also come
battles in life. Entrepreneurs are involved in facing rejec- ing and disconnecting my naturally to you that you’re
don’t have to just rely on tion. brain and heart for a mo- used to and enjoy, are also
“I’m an optimistic person,” ment. Sometimes when I good.
you really have to train your- I: How do you do that? feel an overwhelming sense
I: You think consistency
is key. Is it because it’s like


muscle memory?

You have to be prepared for the TS: It’s because you get


into a pattern that your

tough battles in life... mind and body recognize


and have an attachment to.
Another thing I do is write

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speeches; I’m an avid speech- step back and realize there because they don’t know


writer and tend to start are a lot of external factors what their passion is exactly.
writing ideas for speeches involved like people could
Sometimes life In my opinion, sometimes
when I need an outlet. I’m
also part of a garden in the
be running late or have a isn’t a career, you inherently know, but
deadline or a job or per- sometimes things don’t
East Village where I help sonal worry. There are other but made of come together until later
curate and keep the presen-


factors that contribute to a on, when you see dominant
tation lively. These are ways feeling of rejection that we episodes. themes in your life and in
to learn optimism and deal shouldn’t internalize, just the side activities you’re pur-
with challenging situations. see as circumstances. Keep- suing, in the types of people
Putting your brain in an- ing that in mind helps to pany formation, freelancers you’re working with and the
other place is a step in the deal appropriately. You’re –there’s a strong reason for types of people that make
right direction. But it takes human and you’re going to this. It’s because the defini- you happy. It takes time to
practice and consistency. feel bad at times; now you tion of job and work has realize that.
have to put yourself into become a life’s work or a
I: I have to train and pre- “dealing-with-it” mode and legacy versus something to I think it’s more important
pare for moments instead put yourself into an activity. just get by. The stakes seem to keep track of things that
of just waiting for shit to bigger. With the advent inherently make you feel
hit the fan. I: What’s one of the big- of technology and social good and then eventually
gest things you think we media and momentum in you’ll see a trend evolving.
TS: Take social situations, worry about unnecessar- the entrepreneurial space, You can have multiple pas-
for example. Sometimes ily? there’s the ability to have sions. Sometimes life isn’t
they go poorly and you feel great impact. That’s just a career, but made of epi-
like a.) No one likes you TS: Here’s what I find in- the changing tide. When I sodes; you can think of each
and b.) Maybe you’re not teresting. There’s a school talk to young people, I call ten-year period of your life
as socially forward as other of thought that talks about them STP´s – smart tal- as an episode of a TV show
people. But this is your own finding your passion. That ented people - a lot of them that comes together to form
projection. You can take a the latest generation, people don’t really know what something great. Not un-
who are now graduating their passion is. And if they derstanding passion is just


from university, are doing don’t, they end up going a quality of not understand-
You’re human and jobs linked to their pas- into management training ing self, and sometimes
sions. This is happening programs or consulting or you need to take time to
you’re going to more than ever before. And banking because they don’t understand self and track


feel bad at times. with this generation you see really know what they want. back to see some of the
a lot of role creation, com- They’re highly embarrassed things you’ve been doing.

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When in doubt, focus on the

When in doubt, focus on the


skills that you’re strong in,
whether it’s public speaking
or technical acumen or ask-


skills that you’re strong in...
ing questions or curiosity;
focus on those strengths in
a variety of areas and you’ll
find matches. I only realized
how much I enjoyed travel
and how much it opened me But it took time and differ- terviewing people and trying
up after years of doing it. move prompted a lifelong
ent experiences to see that. to make them laugh – a duel
My father had the opportu- passion for travel and in-
theme of being Oprah or
nity to work for a shipping ternational business. It was
I: So we shouldn’t get dis- Charlie Rose and education
company in the Nether- the switch that flipped and
heartened by age 26 or 27 and tutoring. And I’m some-
lands, and it was the first opened me up to cultural
we haven’t found our life’s one who is extremely self-
time I left the country. This issues and it began the pro-
work? reflective but with a broad
seemingly tough and strange cess of being more worldly.
interest, and it still took me
TS: No, it’s unreasonable. quite a while. That’s why
It’s unreasonable to expect I tell young people not to
that. After having a “real” worry so much about the
sales career before start- “definition” of a career. I
ing college and then going kept a happy list— for years
into media content creation I just jotted down when I
and consulting, I thought I felt most happy. This led me
should have figured it out. more to ideal careers than
Honestly, it took me up anything else.
until this year to realize that
the three-standout things I: Do you think we box
I cared about in my life are ourselves into a definition?
education, technology and
media. I’m always look- TS: Yes, I do. Every job I’ve
ing for that intersection. If ever had, I’ve created. I
I think about when I was created an internship pro-
growing up, I was always in- gram for the show Chicago

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Tonight, which led to a Or do something of your
media content role. I cre- own later?
ated the intern program at
Towers Watson and cre- I: Are you going to build
ated a rotational program an organization so I can
to help people understand create my own position
compensation. I created the there?
sales program in my family
business. I came on board at TS: I’ll keep you posted be-
McKinsey & Co and created cause it’s in the works!
an internal strategy role.
Who’s to say you can’t create
positions within wonderful
organizations and then cre-
ate your own organization?

TINA SHAH
Named for the other Tina (Turner), Tina Shah brings a touch of soul to
her projects. Tina is a sales and marketing strategist, a speaker, and an
entrepreneur. She runs her own sales strategy consulting firm after working
in McKinsey & Company’s marketing and sales practice, as a labor force
consultant at Towers Watson, and in TV news for PBS Chicago. She is
passionate about the spread of great teaching and helps manage ClassWish.
org and works on the board of The Equity Project school, recently featured by
Katie Couric on 60 minutes. Tina helped develop the book How Remarkable
Women Lead and has been strongly influenced by The Wellness and
Prevention Paradigm. She is currently based in New York, New York.

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THE RIGHTSIDE OF
IRRATIONALITY


Human beings adapt. Even if
you believe you won’t be able
to handle something, you end


up adjusting to it.

An Interview with
DAN ARIELY

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Ishita Gupta: You were battlefield, so it’s very bright


born in the United States and very hot. I had deep
but went to university burns on about 30% of my It was painful to put on, tore skin,
in Israel. Now you teach
at Duke. When were you
body— my hands for in-
stance, were charred beyond
was hot and itchy, but had the
injured? the skin and you could see advantage of keeping my scars
the bones and tendons. I


Dan: At that time I was spent almost three years in a invisible.
18, living in Israel, I was at hospital.
a youth meeting to make
some fire signs for an event. I: You literally had to walk waiting for someone to the best answer was what
through the fire from the come and help me. Initially, I’d screamed to the nurses
I: What happened? explosion to escape? I didn’t really understand - that it’s less painful to
the severity of it all. When it remove the bandages slowly
DA: I was badly burned DA: Yes, that’s true. Strange- happened I knew it was very over an extended period of
over 70% of my body by the ly enough, I only began to bad and life threatening, but time than it is to remove
explosion of a flare, which feel the intense pain once I somehow felt that it would them quickly.
is a big magnesium ball. I’d gotten out and was lying also just go away.
It’s supposed to light up a on the ground afterward I: How did you battle the
I: In your book, Predictably social assumptions of what
Irrational, you write about happened to you?
changing bandages during
your recovery. DA: I left the Hospital to go
to University still wearing
DA: It was about how to a special jumpsuit. It put
remove bandages from burn pressure on the recovering
patients -- slowly and with tissue, covering everything
lower intensity over a longer from head-to-toe except my
period of time or quickly eyes, ears, and mouth. It was
with a shorter but higher painful to put on, tore skin,
pain level. My nurses did it was hot and itchy, but had
quickly, but I begged them the advantage of keeping
to do it more slowly for me. my scars invisible. I actually
In Predictably Irrational, I de- drew comfort from that. In
scribe my research showing the long term it was very

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difficult, especially given my


young age, trying to find my
place in the social hierarchy.

I: Can you explain some


of the ways it’s influenced
your academic work as a
Behavioral Economist?

DA: It brought me to vari-


ous questions. For instance,
how do you endure painful
treatments on a daily basis
that are potentially useful in
the long term? In the hos-
pital I was unable to partici-
pate in any social activities.
I would see my friends and my perception. Activities bath by myself, they helped the social aspect that is so
family behaving in similar like even eating and bathing. me down into the bath. But curious. I was looking at the
ways to how they’d behaved It only took a few months of when it came to getting life my friends were leading
before. All of a sudden I being tube-fed, not chew- back out, I had no memory -- social customs, politeness,
wasn’t a part of that. It’s in- ing or tasting, for it to feel of how to get out of the people getting into couple-
teresting how being unable unnatural when I was given bath. I had just totally for- hoods and breaking up,
to do “every day” activities a fortified milkshake. The gotten how after not doing politics, all kinds of things
we take for granted, changed first time I had to take a it for such a long time. It’s – and it became quite odd.
I looked at myself like I was
observing things from an


outsider’s perspective. Like
It’s interesting how being unable to do an alien.

“every day” activities we take for granted, I: Every day life became


odd?
changed my perception. DA: What was odd is that

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made it easier to deal with pain, it’s usually on a scale
psychological pain? of zero being no pain and


I think that having to deal with DA: I think that having to
a hundred being the worst
pain you can imagine. But
loads of physical pain helps us deal with loads of physical
pain helps us deal with criti-
notice something, for me,
my 100 is now much higher:


deal with critical mental pain. cal mental pain. I now know
exactly how bad things
I can imagine loads of pain
and since I know I can live
can go. When people rate through it, the fear of that

it didn’t look natural. When


you’re into some social
dance or particular activity,
it appears to you as natural.
But when you step out of
that context you suddenly
ask, “Is this really a natu-
ral way to behave? Is that
the way we should behave
towards each other? To-
wards other people? Why
are we doing this?” This
slight outside perspective,
beyond the specific issues
of hospital life, has stayed
with me. Though it’s been
many years, and despite that
my physical difficulties are
diminished, the experience
has influenced my perspec-
tive.

I: Has the experience of


extreme physical pain

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I somehow assumed that
when the scars healed, the


pain would end.
chemical burns. It basically had been badly burned. He
snapped her back into it. could somehow manage to
Here she was, believing it use his hands though to do
was the end of her world, all kinds of things. In fact,
and all of a sudden she expe- he depressed me much more
rienced tremendous pain, than he helped me. Instead
and in some sense got a new of being somehow inspired,
perspective. I don’t think his story made it occur to
that perspective is worth the me that the scars don’t go
agony. But it’s definitely a away; the limitations and
different perspective. deformities are long lasting.
pain is now in relative terms you in proportion,” but That was one big mispercep-
lower. How does that help it’s true, it does help keep I: How did you keep your- tion I had. The second big
with emotional pain? It’s things in proportion. self from despairing in misperception had to do
a question of perspective. those three years in the with what it means to get
How bad are things? Well, I: Can you think of a spe- hospital? better. Once I understood
it could have been much cific example? things were going to be
worse; and keep in mind DA: It’s complicated. Let different, I somehow as-
that a person with a severe DA: In the hospital, there me answer it this way. After sumed that when the scars
injury has daily reminders was a girl who tried to com- five months, they intro- healed, the pain would end.
-- I not only see my scars mit suicide. She was 17; her duced me to someone that I didn’t realize that when
but I have some pain, some boyfriend left her, so she cut was supposed to cheer me the scars heal to the extent
limitations remaining, and her wrists. She also put Ajax up. As a burn survivor he that no burns remain, they
that’s a daily reminder of in the wounds, so she need- had done very well. He had remain raw and will shrink
how things could have been. ed additional skin trans- extensive scars, he was a car quickly. I would sit with my
People use the term “keeps plants to deal with those mechanic and his hands elbows bent and my knees

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bent, watch a movie for two


hours, only to find I could
no longer straighten my Everybody’s path of interest is driven
elbows or knees because
the skin would shrink so to a large degree by his or her own


quickly. It was difficult and
painful to stretch the skin
back so I could move. That
personal experiences.
period of my treatment was
very depressing.
ously didn’t? you are running a marathon fact that as human beings
I’d imagined I was through and come to believe you are we adapt; so even if you
the most challenging part DA: When my scars started very close to the finish line believe you won’t be able
only to see that what was to shrink about a year into and they tell you it is only to handle something, you
happening was much worse. my time in the hospital, and a third of the way. If you’d can end up adjusting to it.
It wasn’t clear how enor- they were fighting against known how you’d feel with It’s a substantial event of
mous the struggle would my body, my belief was that a third to go, you might not my life and there are many
be. With the initial burns it was just not worth it. If I have started; but now you’ve unique things about it. For
I knew it was about trans- knew in the beginning that endured so much agony, to one thing it makes me think
plants and getting the skin all this was involved, I’m quit would disown the two differently about less intense
to cover the burns again and not sure I could have, or thirds you already ran. experiences –that because I
I could see the progression would have, gone through had such an intense experi-
and see the open wounds it. I thought if it happened I: When you crossed this ence I was able to see things
being closed. I could see the again to someone, to my- road and realized that the with more clarity than
transplants succeeding. All self, or anyone I loved, I pain wasn’t going to be others, perhaps. I question
of that was visible. That’s would not recommend they over soon, how did you things a lot and wonder
still with me. The scars are go forward with the entire come to terms with it? about behavior, ask a lot
still shrinking, but it’s much process; I think terminat- of questions. Everybody’s
slower these days. If I sit for ing life is a better deal. The DA: I didn’t really come path of interest is driven to
two hours it doesn’t matter, benefit is not worth the to terms with it. Part of it a large degree by his or her
but I still need to stretch pain. Unknowingly, I had is just not knowing what’s own personal experiences.
them. got through not the major- going on. There’s a belief
ity but a huge part of the that people adjust very I: I think it was Karen
I: Did you ever feel like giv- pain and I didn’t quit. An quickly to things -- which Armstrong who said it was
ing up, though you obvi- analogy might be: suppose isn’t true. There’s also the a good thing human be-

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ings can adapt to anything. scars were invisible you
So you agree? still had to figure out what
that meant in terms of the
DA: I touch on this in my social hierarchy. Now your
book, The Upside of Irratio- scars are visible. How does
nality, where I describe the that issue play out for you?
things I believe we cannot
adapt to. Take pain, we can DA: I think about how
get used some aspects of it people look at me, will they
under circumstance where shake my hands or not, and
we’re able to predict it and how people usually assume
can say to ourselves that that if you look different
we’ve taken worse and it you’re also less intelligent. I
wont kill us. In contrast, in just had this experience on
experiments administering Friday, when some con-
electrical shocks -- people tractors came to my house
don’t adapt. In fact, it’s the to talk to us about doing
reverse, they become increas- various changes and they
ing distressed, particularly treated me like an idiot.
where the shock is unpre-
dictable -- when you don’t People expect some sort of
know it’s coming, you get correlation between how
very helpless. People also people look and their intelli-
can’t get used to being so- gence. Because people’s faces
cially unconnected. That we are basically symmetrical, we
have a tremendous ability tend to look at symmetry in
to adapt is clear, but I don’t judging beauty. One time we
think we exactly understand were working with a con-
the limitations of adapta- tractor and it was a frustrat-
tion. ing experience because due
to my looks, they treated
I: Can you describe the me like I didn’t understand
ways you adapted? You what they were saying. It’s
spoke about how in the hard to be taken like this
jumpsuit, even though the and this isn’t the first time.

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As an Undergrad, because DA: We can at least make buffet with a lot of tempting can ever think that they’re
I’d wear the jumpsuit and I better decisions even if foods in tremendous quan- making the right decisions.
couldn’t participate in any they’re not the perfectly tity, you would fail day after That’s tough because we see
of the activities because right ones. That’s one fact. day. There’s no question other people making deci-
I looked different, I did I’m very optimistic about about it. But at the same sions, we see ourselves mak-
compensate by participating making better decisions. time, I can help you create ing decisions and we con-
more in class and making We can make better deci- a different environment tinually compare ourselves
sure people realized I wasn’t sions financially. We can, in that would not allow you to other people. We worry
stupid. It was the first time I principal, regulate the banks to be tempted in the same that our decisions aren’t
discovered that I actually en- so that we’re not facing ter- way that would not allow good enough and it affects
joyed studying and partici- rible decisions. There’s ways you to fail in the same way. our abilities so that we end
pating in class. Part of it was to make information sys- If we leave people to their up making even worse deci-
the need to show people the tems that would get people own accord and leave them sions.
big part of me that stayed to make better decisions. I the decision every time, we
the same, that it wasn’t just don’t think that we can just would fail repeatedly. That’s I: Does your research
physical. leave people alone and have the bad news. The good provide clues about how
it happen magically. Deci- news is that we don’t have to conceptualize better
I: Given that we face doubt sions are tough for us. If to be helpless. We can try decision-making?
daily - self doubt and in we’re left to make the deci- to fight these tendencies. I
general, is that why we’re sion on our own accord, we think we can do things in DA: There’s one interesting
irrational when making would fail continuously. the environment to help trick, which is that commit-
decisions? How can we Think about eating. If every- people make better deci- ment to a particular path
begin to make better deci- day when you come home, I sions. The second thing you actually helps convince us
sions for ourselves? arrange for you a beautiful asked was whether people that this is the right deci-
sion. Think about arranged
marriage. When you’re in an


arranged marriage, your par-
You should try to connect the negative thing ents pick whom you marry,
and it’s pretty much, “This
to something positive so that you’re not is it and there’s no way out.”
You just have to make sense
avoiding the thing but the positive pairing out of it. I’m not saying


that arranged marriages are
makes you actually want it to happen. great, but the same holds
true for non-arranged mar-

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riages as well. There’s one someone but keep looking
study that shows that if you over your shoulder thinking,
look at arranged marriages “Whom else could I have
in India and you look at been with?” it’s a recipe for a
love marriages in India, the low level of happiness.
love marriages start happier
and the arranged marriages I: Can we overcome fear by
start out less happy, but associating it with another
then both marriages cross experience? You coupled
in year three. The idea is taking your medical shots
that if you have to live in a with watching movies and
certain way, then you start showed how it helped you
making yourself happy with survive the miserable pro-
this reality, adapt basically. cess because you looked
There’s a beautiful paper by forward to your movie
Jane Hibberts and Dan Gil- watching...
bert in which they look at
this principle in more detail. DA: It’s very important
They get people to develop to break things into small
pictures and say, “Hey, why components and connect
don’t you pick the pictures rewards to it and be more
you like most and we’ll thoughtful and cognitive.
make a big copy of it for you Fear inherently makes the
so that you can hang it in experience worse. Gregory
your room as a poster. Half Burns from Emory Univer-
of the people are told they sity describes putting people
can change their decision into an MRI to observe
later, while the other half brain activity. He gives them
are told they can’t change electrical shocks and tells
their minds. Guess who’s them when they’re going
happier with their decision to get the electrical shock
two weeks later? The people and how big it’s going to
who couldn’t change their be. Then he measures their
mind. This also resonates brain activity. He found that
with dating. If you’re with the brain activation that

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comes just before the shock, is actually much worse; It’s actually want it to happen.
when people dread it, is almost like twice the pain. When you know you can
indistinguishable from what suffer through something
the brain tells them while I: How can people over- and nothing truly bad will
they’re actually having the ride that initial feeling and happen, you’re not as wor-
shock. stop the dread? ried anymore. I had a couple
of students who were mara-
I: So the anticipation is DA: I don’t have a medical thon runners and they told
the pain essentially? solution for this, but for me me it is a psychological
movies are a great distrac- war -- the struggle between
DA: Yes, so mainly the tion. You just don’t think continuing on and stop-
anticipation we usually call about the negative thing. ping. It’s the knowledge that
dread is adding to the expe- If you keep thinking about it is possible, that the body
rience. Now think about two it, it gets worse. You also wants to give up, but they
experiences, one in which should try to connect the know that they can go past
you both dread it and you negative thing to something this point, that makes it
experience it, and another positive, so that you’re not possible.
in which you don’t dread avoiding the thing but the
you just experience. Dread positive pairing makes you

DAN ARIELY
Dan Ariely is the James B. Duke Professor of Psychology and Behavioral
Economics at Duke University. He grew up in Israel and suffered third degree
burns over 70% of his body in an explosion of a magnesium flare, recovering
in hospital for almost three years. After graduating from Tel Aviv University,
he earned an M.A. and Ph.D. in cognitive psychology and received a second
Ph.D. in Business from Duke University. He’s taught at MIT’s Sloan School of
Management and is the author of two best sellers, Predictably Irrational
(2008) and The Upside of Irrationality (2010).

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“ We are what we repeatedly do.
Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.”

Aristotle

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