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Febby: OG and Elephant were the strongest teams based on scrim results before
TI10.Clips | Esports (self.DotA2)
submitted 11 hours ago by Pytlak9
Source
His ratings:
Group A:
OG
Undying (Good results vs Chinese teams - not so much vs CIS.)
Aster (Strong team but covid happend)
EG
VP
T1
TP
Alliance
IG
Group B:
Elephant
LGD
Spirit
Secret
Beastcoast
Fnatic
QC
VG
SG
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[–]SillyRabbit2121
396 points 9 hours ago

This is based on Undying’s scrims alone.
Doesn’t factor in any of the other hundreds of scrims that happened before TI
involving other teams.
Interesting info but not definitive by a long shot.
permalinkembedsavereportgive awardreply
[–]PM_ME_UR_NIPPLE_HAIR

I think its still fairly valid - Febby is a very experienced player, who most
definitely studied the opponents' playstyles overall
permalinkembedsaveparentreportgive awardreply
[–]ace-s

Correct but IG could have been destroying almost every team in scrims except NA
teams.
It is only from his team's perspective that IG looked bad.
Also, if he knew the results from other teams then some pretty nasty shitty things
are happening in the inside.
Scrims should be confidential, or else teams will stop scrimming with teams they
dont trust.
[–]Monsi_ggnore

Pretty sure teams care about keeping the strats they used in scrims secret, not the
results. And they certainly care very little about either at this point in time.
[–]dimsonny
[score hidden] 2 minutes ago

Of course it isn't definitive.
But he was the coach for Undying so it was important that he made a list to what
info he saw going into TI.
[–]Notreallyaflowergirl

Definitive ? You’re right on that it definitely isn’t. Definitive… but it does make
me feel better that others thought elephant was going to be strong :) though I just
… I just want FY to win god damnit
[–]mogwaiss

Just from the other side: ALOHADANCE said on one of Na'Vi vlogs (just a week before
TI) that elephant were really dogshit and has no clue what they will do on TI.
[–]ace-s

this is based on their own team's scrims.
It is not like he asked every single team and took the average of their opinions.
[–]beaverlyknight

Yeah I dunno, Elephant just looked clueless in the tournament, idk how they could
have won scrims. They had heroes just like, playing on the wrong side of the map
basically griefing each others games. Item builds were dogshit. I think fy was
fine, Eurus was alright but sometimes was overcompensating (like you could
basically see him make "alright my team sucks better force something" moves).
Somnus, Yang, and Super were just dogs pretty much.
[–]ttybird5

I agree elephant looked like a pub team, but i disagree a bit with the players.
somnus still played like a t1 mid, but fy was like non-existent. yang is a
liability if he didn't have a good lane. super wasn't ready at all; not comfortable
with the heroes and lost all the vision game. eurus always had subpar impact given
his resources taken
[–]circa 2014AGVann
[score hidden] 42 minutes ago

That's the text book example of a pub team. You can always pop off as a mid since
you don't really depend as much on others, but you can't get T1 support/team plays
without being a cohesive team. In every single one of Collapse's horn-skewer
combos, the supports were there to perfectly chainstun or burst within a second.
Everyone on Elephant was just playing their own game.
[–]pow33

Idk what you watched. Sonny’s was the best performing player on that team by far.
[–]TellAllThePeople

What would he know though, he wasn't scrimming with them
[–]DigitalFreeze

But he was scrimming with them?
The new Na`Vi squad had a bootcamp right before TI so they could scrim with TI
teams
[+]Cr4ckshooter
comment score below threshold (11 children)
[–]Legejr

I'm pretty sure TI teams wants to test strats against teams that were not in TI...
[–]Commercialommand

I believe OG hardly scrimmed carry IO at all. They believed in it just from Ana's
pubs,
[+]YoruKhun
comment score below threshold (0 children)
[–]achio

To quote Tsunami himself: "The team with the highest probability to win a TI rarely
does so."
[–]Gondar1994 15 points 5 hours ago

well in fairness, going into any tournament, no team has a greater than 50% chance
to win IMO, so that is kind of an obvious statement
[–]BSliceOfLoaf 17 points 4 hours ago
literally LGD this TI. Was nearly a given they'd make it to grand finals (through
uppers lmao), and they'd have 60%+ favorability against literally any other team in
the tournament
[–]Gondar1994 5 points 4 hours ago

I personally feel that saying they were nearly given to reach the grand finals is a
stretch, but i wouldn't doubt the odds were good compared to all other teams. just
for math purposes, If you have a 60% chance to win a series 4 times, I am pretty
positive the result is less than 50 to win all 4 of those games.
[–]march-2020 8 points 3 hours ago

60% chance of winning against any team = 12.96% to win 4 consecutive
you can increase it to 80% chance of winning against any team and the probability
of winning 4 consecutive series is still under 50% (40.96%)
[–]mikasa12343 10 points 4 hours ago

highest =/= above 50%
[+]Haxxelerator 0 points 2 hours ago (0 children)
[–]makz242 79 points 10 hours ago

Yes! More of this content! The behind the scene stuff of TI juice!
[–]Archyes 109 points 9 hours ago

Aliance even sucked at scrims
[–]kyusana 47 points 9 hours ago

Save strats for next TI probably :)
[–]MrSexyPizza3 49 points 9 hours ago

PPD took the strats with him
[–]ShortyPause 12 points 8 hours ago

Obviously something going on in the team with how fast they let limmp and fng go.
[–]bredtherz 25 points 8 hours ago

I think TeaGuvnor or someone leaked that Alliance would be the team that would
pause the most in scrims during the drafting phase and would still be dogshit on
it. It's an open secret that panelists and pros really still can't believe what the
fuck were Alliance even doing in TI to begin with. The regional format points and
6th man were game changer.
[+]JimSteak comment score below threshold (14 children)
[–]kapEEtan 38 points 9 hours ago

noob question: what are scrims ? :P
[–]istoppedsleep 92 points 9 hours ago

scrimmages. where teams play each other to try stuff out and there's nothing on the
line. it's just practice matches.
[–]SIKAMIKANIC0 50 points 9 hours ago

Friendly matches between teams to train I think
Although I always wonder in how serious the teams get when scrimming, do they
reveal their strats?
[–]hooahest 45 points 8 hours ago

Sometimes they do. Sometimes they do special tactics that are so fucking special
that the other team thinks they're fucking around
Support 4 Juggernaut from team DK never forget
[–]aosifjasofijas 26 points 6 hours ago

or Kuroky's 5 Razor. Scientists still baffled.
[–]Notreallyaflowergirl 8 points 6 hours ago

On paper it … it could work! Steal damage. Slow… hmmmmmm.
[–]dbkk- 10 points 5 hours ago

by that logic Drow 5 can work, she can poke, silence, and slow!
[–]Notreallyaflowergirl 7 points 5 hours ago

She could. That’s so 2000-and late.
[–]Dobor_olita 6 points 5 hours ago

well every hero has their pluses and minuses. While A hero could work in a pub
because they dont know how to abuse their minuses or cant cooperate at the
important time to do so, the same thing cant be said about pro matches. On paper
Razor does sound good as pos 5 against a ST carry like idk , pa or life stealer but
the pro players also know how to abuse the lanes if its picked.
People were laughing their asses off when Topson bought diff blade at TI 9 , i
remember the twitch chat going ballistic but it won them the match. As N0tail said,
everything can work.
[–]matagen 10 points 6 hours ago

They do experiment during scrims, and hence end up revealing some strats. A lot of
the tournament meta develops initially in these scrims. Hence teams are also
selective about their scrim partners, since you still want to limit your ideas
being leaked to the entire rest of the tournament, and keeping scrim data
confidential is taken pretty seriously.
Scrims are pretty serious stuff. As a commonly cited example, Secret's

disappointing finish at TI5 is often attributed at least in part to their refusal
to play scrims at all leading up to the tournament in an attempt to keep their
strats secret, but at the cost of giving them no practice or information about the
other teams. With teams that drop out in the early stages of the tournament, you
often find later that they have been playing poorly in scrims and enter the
tournament with low motivation and confidence. You wouldn't end up in that sort of
mental state if you weren't taking your scrims seriously.
[+]penifSMASH 1 point 2 hours ago (1 child)
[–]chunlongqua 27 points 8 hours ago*

There has been big beefs between teams when one side wouldn't take scrims
seriously. It seems that teams that don't tryhard and/or hold too much back seem to
eventually find themselves unable to find good teams to scrim against, which is
basically a death sentence. And you can theorycraft all the most amazing strats you
want, but until you practice and test them on actual competition they're just
theories. The other big nono is leaking scrim results, so there's some safety in
occasionally showing your best hand.
[–]PaperyWhistle 13 points 6 hours ago

C9 leaked scrims when they had Mason and Ritsu and they got blacklisted from
scrims.
[–]porkin4what 3 points 4 hours ago

DK strats leaked during ti4 by some cameraman.
[–]XxDirectxX 1 point 1 hour ago

Ofc there has to be ritsu in there lmao
[–]PaperyWhistle 1 point 1 hour ago

That was practically before all that drama went down with him and he got
blacklisted from pro teams.
[–]Apache17 23 points 8 hours ago

I'm not a pro so i can't say for sure. But it depends on the strat.
Famously I believe OG hardly scrimmed carry IO at all. They believed in it just

from Ana's pubs, and the group stages.
Coming from other games it can be hard to tell team strength in scrims. If team A
is trying strat 1 and team B is trying strat 2 then there is a ton of factors at
play.
Strength of team A, team B, strat 1, and strat 2 all have an effect. So if team A
wins is strat 1 good at all? Or does team B suck? Or does strat 2 suck?
Thats why the meta changes so much in group stages. Teams finally get access to
data for how strong each strat is.
[–]ttybird5 6 points 5 hours ago

i thought the european teams at ti9 all hated OG cuz they fucked around in scrims
and even were late to them, but all it took was that they understood that meta
better than anyone in that ti and just won, as unprofessional as they were.
[–]wrongspleling 11 points 9 hours ago

Teams play games w each other
[–]Nargluj 12 points 9 hours ago

Most commonly used for private practice games between two pro teams. It's generally
considered very bad manners mentioning any details surrounding them so we only get
some glimpses right after TI, because let's face it, that's the only tournament
that matters in pro players' minds.
There's some cases when someone leaks stuff, mostly because they're upset and want
to sabotage a team's performance but also because of slip ups.
[–]adouble_v 9 points 9 hours ago

Practice matches
[–]DNLHC 4 points 9 hours ago

practice matches between teams
[–]Ho ho ha haashjayanc -1 points 9 hours ago

sounds created when trying to grab attention >.< /s
[–]tankdamagesupport 7 points 5 hours ago

Question. Could you help me understand styles of play depending on regions or even
team level?
Example. In soccer some teams play possession, others counter attack, direct play,
aerial game, and so on.
Why does a team perform better versus Chinese teams but under performs vs an
European team etc.
[–]HammadBurfat 9 points 4 hours ago

Difference of mentalities. A lot of Chinese teams like to play very methodically
and take slow and steady games. Most Chinese teams don't like to take a lot of
risks in their games and their drafts are also quite similar.
Each region also figures out the meta differently. For example, heroes like doom
can be very popular among the Chinese teams but not so much among the European
teams.
[–]tropicaltroll 2 points 4 hours ago

Some regions are good at snowballing and ending early, some getting a lead and
slowly bleeding you out. When a snowball region goes against a hold out region the
meta dictates who wins. If late game monsters are meta generally the holding out
region wins, usually NA. If snowball meta is in and playing fast ending fast,
usually china.
It's pretty basic match up stuff, but when one meta dominates a region they usually
all bring that to international tourneys and shit eventually settles and you see
what is best
[–]Team LiquidKoei7 7 points 4 hours ago

I know for the CN teams, they don't really give much shit to losing in scrims,
especially when they play amongst themselves.
[–]ShoogleHS 5 points 4 hours ago

Always happy to listen to Febby talk about Dota but I think this just goes to show
how little predictive power scrims have. Which is fine - that's not what they're
for.
Some of these ratings are way off compared to their actual performance. Best
performing scrim team OG: after mostly draws in the group stage, they couldn't take
a single game off either Secret or Spirit in the playoffs. IG the worst scrim team,
but they were top of their group by a wide margin and knocked the eventual winners
down to the group stage. Undying and Elephant great in scrims, but had a mediocre
group stage result and both lost in the first round of the lower bracket against
below-average teams.
[–]Significant-Battle59 8 points 3 hours ago
Maybe because og was playing with micke for 3 wks before ti in scrims almost, then
ceb came 2 days ago and their entire lineup looked rusty from start in ti..i think
this ti ceb performed very bad.his map movements were odd.and also ceb took the
drafting charge...ti is a very momentum based tournament..you make momentum synergy
with your teamamtes for 4 wks , then suddenly another player comes in, dynamic
changes..in almost every game in ti notail had less vision than his opponents
[–]Pokariariariari 9 points 7 hours ago

Still can't get over the fact that teams were so stubborn about using the
Tiny+Lycan combo when apparently it was played a lot on scrims according to febby.
Ofcourse its gonna get figured out
[–]mangoheap 30 points 6 hours ago

im not sure it was figured out man.
spirit won once against it and vp won once against it. i dont remember any other
wins vs tiny lycan
[–]whyyouneedmyname 24 points 6 hours ago

Spirit won twice, both on the final day
[–]Yojimbo-87 11 points 5 hours ago

Completely agree. Spirit won vs tiny lycan because they were crazy strong team. Not
because they figured out something.
[–]Omen111 [score hidden] 58 minutes ago

And Ltd was crazy weak team, right
/s
[–]I_M_BACK_696969 1 point 1 hour ago

spirit won that final game because LGD picked dogshit support duo
[–]ShoogleHS 13 points 3 hours ago

LGD used Lycan Tiny to devastating effect against Secret in the semis. I don't
think most teams had it figured out, just Spirit really and even they got a bit of
help from some significant mistakes by PSG in their game 5 that made them fail to
take advantage of their timings.
[–]SheeverDragynFyre12 2 points 3 hours ago

All this info goes to show is how varied teams pkaystyles can be and how one teams
pkaystyles could crush another but be completely ineffective against another team.
Tbh this is one of my favorite things about DotA. It shows that at the absolute
highest levels there is still varied styles play and not necessarily one optimal
way to play.
[–]cXs808 2 points 4 hours ago

ITT: People that don't realize even in pre-TI scrims, teams hold their strategies.
[–]likpoper 2 points 6 hours ago

Ig the last? Haha
[–]payrpaks 2 points 2 hours ago

Even funnier is that TP apparently dumpstered iG in this rating.
[–]SnappleJuiceDeepKiss 1 point 6 hours ago

the real thing always is different... you can win 100/100 of scrims against the
same team but lose once it matters
[+]DoYouEvenShiftBra comment score below threshold (10 children)
[+]Th1nker26 comment score below threshold (0 children)
[–]SilverBMWM3GTR 1 point 1 hour ago

Interesting that IG was the weakest in the scrims for Group A. They stormed to the
top in group stage and finished 4th.
[–]KainLust [score hidden] 48 minutes ago

Og vs Elephant grand finals could have been a pretty hype narrative. Three-peat vs
maybe/fy redemption arc.
[–]xaelcry [score hidden] 30 minutes ago

if FY still in LGD they could've win
[–]HauntingEngine8 [score hidden] 18 minutes ago

Love the way OG got pummelled into the lower bracket and then mercilessly beaten
out the tourney.
[+]Boremanfreeman comment score below threshold (0 children)

[+]StudentOfAwesomeness comment score below threshold (0 children)
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submitted 11 hours ago by Pytlak9

396 points 9 hours ago

Interesting info but not definitive by a long shot.

60 points 7 hours ago

63 points 7 hours ago

It is only from his team's perspective that IG looked bad.

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Support 4 Juggernaut from team DK never forget

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