IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit

Shame, Anger & Jealousy: When Emotions Delay Healing

with Razi Berry
Shivan Sarna: Hi everybody. It’s so good to have you here today. I'm glad that you're
going to share this time with me and Razi Berry. And yes, that is her real
name.

Razi is the publisher of two naturopathic medical journals. She has done
so much for the community to, as they say share, share the love, to get so
much information out to so many people around the world. And you know
part of my mission is this global education about chronic conditions, in
this case we're talking IBS and SIBO.

So it's a thrill to spend some time with her; and you, as always.

She also started a movement—which I love the idea of starting

movements. Let’s do that! And hers is called ​Love is Medicine​. So we’re
going to talk to her today about the connection between the brain and the
gut, and that bridge of emotion also as part of it.

So, I'm really excited. I hope you'll get a lot out of this. Let's take a breath.
And let's say hi to Razi. Hi Razi!

Razi Berry: Hello! Hi everyone. I’m really delighted to be here today. Intestinal and
digestive health is so important to me and the work that I do. So I was
really excited to be able to spend this time with you today.

Shivan Sarna​: And SIBO is one of the most searched topics in all of the publication, all
the journals, that you do.

Razi Berry: Yes. Yes definitely digestive health. And I was really surprised a couple of
years ago when we discovered that our content on SIBO was just so
searched and so popular. I think that the fact that we are a naturopathic
house, a publication really—

Page | 1
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 We are in our 14​th year of print. So Naturopathic Doctor News & Review
is a journal where physicians, naturopathic physicians, share case studies
with other professions. So we started that, Shivan, for doctors to really
learn from each other because you learn from case studies in a way that
you don’t learn from just research because this is real patient outcomes.

And so, the cases of SIBO being treated so effectively through

naturopathic medicine are because of this whole paradigm of ​tolle totem​,
which is “treat the whole person,” a fundamental paradigm in naturopathic
medicine and through all the work that we publish.

And the other one is “remove the obstacle to cure.” In functional medicine
and integrative medicine, we’ve sort of borrowed that beautiful statement
as to mean finding the root cause. And it’s so important.

Naturopathic medicine takes it a little bit further to say it’s also to remove
the obstacles to cure which values this innate healing response that the
body holds that we call vis medicatrix naturae or the “healing power of
nature.” And the ​vis​ in that stands for the life force, the vital force.

And so, naturopathic medicine sees the body as something that heals on its
own. It’s not the doctor that does the healing or the pill or the prescription
or even the supplement that does the healing. But it’s strengthening that
vital force, and sometimes getting things out of the way that are in
impeding healing.

It’s just a really beautiful distinction in medicine. And I think there’s

definitely a place for all modalities. And I just see naturopathic medicine
as one of the instruments in a whole symphony of patient choice in
healthcare.

Shivan Sarna​: And I know you’re really interested in making sure people find the right
care. That’s something we’re really interested in too at SIBO SOS™. So
it’s a wonderful alignment.

I wanted to ask you about some of those obstacles that maybe you’ve seen
through your research and through your conversations with all these
Page | 2
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 experts and your own personal story, and that is the emotional aspect of
life and shame, which, bless Brene Brown, everybody who has watched
my summit knows, I’m a huge fan of hers.

I’m interested to hear your take on that. And then, also, when you and I
were talking before, we were talking a little bit about how jealousy could
also impact the digestion.

Razi Berry: Ah yes.

Shivan Sarna​: …which I think is really provocative and pretty cool that we’re shining a
light on that.

Razi Berry: Yeah, absolutely. I’m sure many people on the summit are talking about
the way we communicate neuronally. Our body communicates. As a
matter of fact, we talk about the biome. But I found in some of the
research that I read and published that there’s what some research call the
connect tone which is really this system of neuronal connections
throughout our whole body.

And if we understand that we have a hundred million neurons in our

central nervous system, our brain or our spinal cord, but then we have
another hundred million neurons just in our gut—which is of course called
the ​enteric nervous system—​ often, our stomach is called the “second
brain” for a good reason. And you probably have some people shedding
some light on that. [05:19]

But it really speaks to the wisdom of the body that the enteric nervous
system operates largely on its own. We kind of, in a reductionist way,
have thought the brain is the master of everything. And we know that
that’s not really true. And since the 1800s, naturopathic doctors have been
looking at the gut as the seat of immunity but also of emotional healthy.

When we talk about emotions, Shivan, we know that 90% of serotonin, for
instance, is produced in our gut. And there is a lot that is involved in there.

We largely thought that serotonin and these molecules of emotion—as

Page | 3
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 Candace Pert so beautifully called them and labeled them—were produced
in our brains. We have found that it is through the excretion of bile in our
digestive tract (in communion with the mucosal lining of the luminal tract
of the digestive tract) is where these molecules of emotion are synthesized.

And so, it’s really important to think about ways that our eating and our
digestion affect our emotions and vice versa.

We’ll go into that a little bit more. But I just want to say that one of the
really simple but profound ways that we need to speak of our
digestion—and my summit’s like this, the IBS SIBO Summit—that’s so
critical is our gut is really the main mechanism that we co-create who we
are with the world around us. I think that is very profound. And it’s taking
a pause to think about.

Through our eating—largely eating, but also breathing of course, taking

things into the bloodstream through our breath—we take in the
environment, the foods that grow and have their own vital force, their own
life force, into our bodies. And through digestion and assimilation—and if
our absorption is healthy (which to many of us, it’s not)—that is where we
build every cell, every neuron, and thus every emotion that we feel. Again,
it really co-creates with the environment who we are.

And so, digestion and digestive health is not only so important

immunologically, but also to the existence of who we are to make sure that
we have healthy relationships and are able to adapt to those relationships
and challenges and things in the world around us.

And so, the research is showing that our digestion doesn’t just affect our
emotions, but vice versa.

And so, before we get into some specific emotions, I think it’d also be
great to talk a little bit about the lining of our luminal canal and some
recent research that I’ve read about this mucosal lining and inflammation.

So, inflammation is definitely one of the markers of IBS and SIBO. But in

Page | 4
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 the luminal canal, there’s always inflammation present. And that’s really
important because there’s a lot happening. There’s a lot going on. There’s
a lot of chemo-signaling and chemo-sensing that’s happening.

Shivan Sarna​: Well, I just want to interrupt for just a second. When we’re talking about
the luminal canal, I have my handy-dandy chart.

Razi Berry: How awesome!

Shivan Sarna​: Just for people who don’t know that terminology necessarily, what am I
looking at here? Is it the large intestine, the small intestine?

Razi Berry: Yes. It’s really the whole mucosal lining. The small intestine is where
most of the food is chemically digested. So it’s really starting there. The
large intestine is where everything that’s digested starts absorbing. And so
it’s the lining there is what we’re really talking about.

Shivan Sarna​: Okay. I just wanted to be clear. We have heard that term before, but I
don’t know how often. So I want to make sure.

So, when we say the “lumen,” it’s the tube.

Razi Berry: Yes, absolutely, yes.

Shivan Sarna​: It’s the lining of the tube.

Razi Berry: Yes, beautifully said, and so simple. I like that.

So, the lumen, the luminal canal, actually has taste receptors that are very
similar to the taste receptors on your tongue. It can sense things like salty,
sour, bitter, and even this newest one we’ve discovered, umami. And it’s
done in a different way. [10:19]

Razi Berry: In our mouth, we taste things as a way to entice us and seduce us to get the
nutrients that we need. But in our luminal canal, it’s sensing through
chemo-sensing these different properties or attributes that make something
bitter, salty or sweet to understand what the nutritive content is. And your
body responds to that by creating differences in the mucosal lining and

Page | 5
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 protecting your esophagus, for instance, if something is very acidic and
adjusting the level of bile.

And remember, the emotions, the molecules of emotions are synthesized

not just with the microbiota, but in conjunction with the bile. And this
mucosal lining is really where it happens. So your body is sensing the food
that it’s taking in and adjusting its dietary needs and even its emotions
based on what you’re taking in.

So, our bodies are just innately wise. And I’ll talk about ways that we need
to learn through this ability that we all have called ​enteroception or
enteroreceptive ability to really listen to our bodies because we have so
many chemo-signaling receptors in our body that takes in afferent
information and gets out efferent information so we can make better health
choices.

At the end of the day, like we said, it’s not the doctor that heals the
patient; it’s the patient. You can give them the best prescription for
lowering stress or eating the right foods, and if they don’t comply, then
it’s just not going to happen.

So, we can talk about some of the emotions that are involved. And what’s
really interesting is there’s a study—I’m going to try to pull up this study.
This study was in the Canadian Medical Journal in 1962. And it was
studying, of all things, the physiology of diarrhea.

And so, they did this test with like balloon tests inside various parts of the
large intestine. And they found that hypomotility of the sigmoid, of the
colon, resulted from emotions such as hopelessness, sadness, dependency
or feelings of inadequacy or even rejection, and then anger, resentment,
hostility. And even strong emotions that aren’t necessarily negative, like
courage, increased the sigmoid contraction which caused constipation.

So, if you think of these emotions like hopelessness or despair or sadness

where you’re just kind of giving up, you just feel hopeless, and you’re
giving up, you don’t feel like you have anything to hold to, it’s interesting
that those are the emotions that they found in the study cause diarrhea

Page | 6
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 because it’s like you’re not holding on to it. And in diarrhea, often, it’s
that lack of motility that allows these to sort of pass through and cause this
poor absorption.

And then, it makes a lot of sense also, if we think about it, that these
strong, often negative, emotions like anger, hostility and guilt means
sometimes we’re holding on to something, like we’re not being forgiving,
or we’re holding on to anger. And that causes the constipation.

So, it really makes a lot of sense from a cognitive view of how we deal
with emotions.

Another thing important is when you’re having some of these symptoms

of irritable bowel or SIBO, again, the small intestine is where most of the
chemical digestion takes place. And so the anger, we’re really holding on
to these things, and jealousy (that’s another emotion), envy, in Chinese
medicine, it’s the liver that is associated with things like envy and anger
and even competition.

And so, that’s why envy and jealousy can cause gastrointestinal reflux.
Sometimes, it’s called the sour stomach or you’re “green of envy” because
green is the color that’s associated with bile. It’s kind of a putrid,
greenish-yellow—it’s actually a very beautiful color. But that’s why
jealousy is sometimes called “green with envy.” It comes from the
traditional Chinese view of bile coming from the liver. You’re not
properly digesting your food, and you’re not properly digesting your
emotions. [15:24]

Razi Berry: Now, in the Indian view of digestion, it is the place where we also digest
for emotions. And if we think about it, Shivan, it’s really important that
emotions are something that need to be processed. They’re not the same as
thoughts that you can let come and go. And so our body can kind of hold
on to or let go of—

Page | 7
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 And sometimes, in irritable bowel, you’re seeing both happen. Oftentimes,
what the research says, is it’s not even really a malfunction or a
dysfunction. It’s more of an exacerbation of normal motility.

Throughout the day, intestinal motility and peristalsis and digestion

changes depending on what part of digestion you’re at, like at what stage
of digestion you’re at. And so it shows that it can really slow down or
speed that up. And it’s maybe less about the inflammation according to
some of these ​bolder​ research studies.

Now, of course, most of the research that is done is focusing on

inflammation. Let’s remember that inflammation in itself is not something
bad. Inflammation is a part of healthy metabolism. Inflammation is kind of
the army or troops being sent into an area to heal or even to do regular
metabolic processes such as bring in nutrients and let go of waste.

It’s interesting that until about, I found through my research, 1968,

inflammation was last looked at as a cause. There was some more of the
emotional aspect talked about. Isn’t that interesting?

Shivan Sarna​: That is interesting. You would think that it would be more modern now to
talk about emotions, but they were doing it back then.

Razi Berry: Well, I’m seeing an upswing of that. Allowing me to speak on your event
and talking about some of these things is an example of that. And we can
talk about some more of the emotions.

Shame is something that has been shown to really affect digestion. And
shame often leads to dysbiosis or leaky gut. And it’s because shame is
often an emotion that we need to not deal with. There’s a constant meme
on social media saying “Let go of shame.”

Shame is something that we shouldn't walk away from. Shame is an

emotion that we need to take a good, hard look at. What is it asking us to
do? It’s asking us to make a better choice.

This happens all the time in the idea of food shaming. Somebody makes a
bad food choice. And if someone comments on that, they say that they’re
Page | 8
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 food shaming that person. We should never do that. But when someone
listening here is making a poor food choice, and we feel ashamed, I think
that it’s wrong to disregard that shame or say that that’s not being good to
yourself.

Every emotion that comes to us—and we notice through the field of

phenomenology, the philosophical field of phenomenology and even
embodiment in psychology. It tells us that all emotions play a role and
should be paid attention to.

And so when it comes to issues of digestion, blood sugar, diabetes,

irritable bowel syndrome, SIBO, obesity, it’s important to understand that
there are complex emotions involved in eating—and shame can be one of
them. And what is shame asking you? Shame is maybe saying “Don’t do
that anymore.”

Your body, that luminal canal, some of these emotions we talked about are
actually not science fiction. The chemicals of emotion that we are feeling
in our heart and in our brain and in our body are actual, real substances.
They’re not just brainwaves. They’re substances. They’re emotions.
They’re hormones.

And to disregard them is a mistake. When you eat food that your body,
through chemo-sensing, feels is not good for you, you will have an
emotional reaction. And when you start listening to those emotional
reactions, we choose better foods. We can feel with your body you can
start to make the choices to heal yourself. [20:08]

Razi Berry: And if you’re a physician listening, if you teach your patients to do that,
listen to their bodies, you’re going to get better patient outcomes and more
compliance.

Shivan Sarna​: Compliance is so important. It’s so important. We can go to the greatest

teachers and doctors and practitioners in the world, and then when we go
home, if we’re self-sabotaging or whatever, if we’re not being compliant,

Page | 9
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 it’s a source of shame, for sure, but it’s also not going to be moving us
forward to the goal that we’re trying to accomplish.

Razi Berry: Have you ever been in a massage therapy appointment, and sometimes the
massage therapist will massage your abdomen—

The first time a massage therapist ever did that to me, I had this real
emotional response. I actually started crying. I didn’t really understand
why. And now I understand that it’s the solar plexus that is the emotional
center. Almost every religious philosophy and esoteric teaching looks at
the solar plexus the place of our gut where we’re taking the environment
and become who we are and process our emotions. And so the emotions
are stored in our solar plexus.

And this might be really woo-woo. I do get a little bit woo, but I’ve also
been studying case reports, actual patient cases for more than 14 years.
And time and time again, I see physicians having these same outcomes
when we deal with emotions and digestive health.

Shivan Sarna​: Well, I’m a yoga teacher. I’m woo-woo stuff. So I’m fine with it. I’m fine
with it.

And for those of you who are like rolling your eyes—some of you are
going, “Yeah!” But for those of you who are rolling your eyes or just feel
no connection to the conversation, thanks for hanging in there with us.

I think that it’s important that you realize that Razi is talking about
ancient, like beginning of civilization, yogic, ayurvedic concepts. Those
are just one chapter of it in terms of a cultural chapter globally about the
emotions being stored here.

So, this isn’t just something we’re just like sitting around going,
“Wouldn't it be cool if your emotions are in our belly? That is so cool!”
This is a much bigger, bigger conversation.

So, just open your brain, take a breath, like I like to say. Soak it in and see
where you can apply it to your life. If you find that you’re holding this

Page | 10
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 tightness in your belly and you’re forgetting to breathe, you could see how
that could affect your digestion just from a commonsense perception.

So, just some stuff to think about. And if you’re already ohming at the
back of your mind constantly, you’re on the top of the mountain,
meditating, many blessings to you.

Razi Berry: Well, many of us have had this feeling of butterflies in the stomach. It can
be a positive or a negative. Maybe you remember your first crush in high
school. I remember mine. I remember him walking into algebra class and
just feeling that sense of butterflies in your stomach. And really, that’s the
adrenaline. It kind of makes the gut wall rigid because it’s slowing down
digestion.

Remember, in time of stress, positive or negative, your body, kind of in

that fight-or-flight, shunts the blood flow away from your center into your
extremities so you can take action and do what you need to do to make
sure that you’re safe.

And so that fluttering feeling, because it soothes the internal anal sphincter
muscle, and it kind of has this effect that goes up all the way towards your
diaphragm, that’s what causes that fluttering sensation of butterflies in the
stomach.

Shivan Sarna​: I love it when something—like kicked in the gut, butterflies in the
stomach. You can make such a direct connection to it.

Razi Berry: Oh, yeah, fire in the belly, I like that one a lot, when you really have a
strong emotion of courage or strength or you’re really motivated to find
justice in a situation, that kind of motivating fire in the belly. It’s kind of
opposite. All of that energy goes internally and can kind of give you some
wings to do something.

So, there are many unusual ways that our emotions can impact our health
and vice versa. And then there’s a lot of things in our environment.

And you were asking earlier what have I seen. I’m not sure how many of
these have you talked about. Well, one of the biggest contributors of
Page | 11
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 course to IBS and SIBO can be antibiotic use which can be so ironic
because, also, certain types of antibiotics are really important to the
treatment of these treatments again depending on your constitution and
what your naturopathic or integrative doctor sees for your different
make-up.

But the Journal of Clinical Psychology reported that even a single course
of antibiotics can not only affect your digestion, but can lead to anxiety
and depressive states. [25:27]

Razi Berry: So, just one course of an antibiotic can interrupt that production and
balance of these neurotransmitters of emotion. And I thought that was
really amazing because it wasn’t repeated use. It was just one actual
course.

And of course, I’m not against antibiotics. Sometimes, they’re necessary.

But when I was researching a previous work that I have done about some
of the causes of childhood digestive disorders, I found something, Shivan,
that was really interesting.

For many illnesses, it’s childhood poverty that is antecedent to some

abdominal distress or even emotional distress. As you know, the mind and
body are so connected.

But I found two studies that showed that upper class children, or children
of means, had a higher incidence of IBS than children in poverty or even
in middle class. And I found that very interesting because I found, not one,
but two studies. One was a large study taken from a New Zealand
population. And another one was in the United States.

And some of the interesting commentary or thought behind it is that if you

are someone of affluence, you tend to live a little bit more in
isolation—more in privacy and in smaller communities. Houses are farther
away from each other. There’s larger and less rooms in the house. People
are less apt to share rooms.

Page | 12
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 And so, one of the thoughts is that there is less diversity of microbiota.
They really go to smaller schools or have tutors, so they’re less exposed to
this microbe variations that we need to stay healthy. I thought that was so
interesting.

There’s also some thought behind that children of affluence, meaning not
of poverty, they’re more heavily scheduled because they have more
opportunities, more classes. Maybe they spend some more time on school.
And so there’s a different social pressure on them to perform and do well.
And they have less free play time. And that affects their digestion in
negative ways as well.

So, I thought that was something really interesting to know when we’re
talking about causes of digestive illness in children.

And as a homeschooling mom, I always like to bring up—I’m sure you

have people talking about digestive health and children here in the IBS &
SIBO Summit. I’d like to share another study for parents.

Stomach pain and stomach aches is one of the number one complaints of
childhood. Children are not yet masters of their emotions. So their
amygdala is fully formed when they are born which processes fear. But
the prefrontal cortex doesn’t develop until age 25 or maybe a few years
later. So children really look to their environment and their parents for a
lot of that emotional soothing in times of not feeling well—whether it’s
emotional distress or a digestive complaint.

So, in this study, they had parents in three groups—one where they just
kind of ignored the child’s complaint, another one where they did a
5-minute distraction where they distracted the child, and another one
where they very heavily attended to the child.

And this wasn’t like horrible pain. They had the children drink water from
a vessel that they didn’t know how much water they were drinking. They
drank past the feeling of comfort. So it was uncomfortable. There was
quite a bit of discomfort, but not real pain.

Page | 13
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 So, in the groups where the parents were hyper-attentive, especially
females, the children had more stomach complaints. They were more
anxious about their stomach pain. [30:04]

Razi Berry: In the group where their parents did a 5-minute distraction saying, “What
do you want to do this weekend?” or “Are you excited for the birthday
party?”, the children had significantly less pain.

And then, the parents who did nothing, they didn’t really impact the
children’s pain in any way.

So, I thought that was really fascinating too. It’s just a way for parents
never to ignore when a child is in pain, but you can try doing little
5-minute distractions.

And that is just a further elucidation of this mind-body connection in

response to our emotions and even things such as pain.

Shivan Sarna​: That’s cool. Well… hi Gabriel Cousens and him laughing himself into
wellness. If you don’t know who that is, go look him up because he’s
amazing.

And I was thinking about if the more affluent kids didn’t have as diverse a
microbiome—look, I came from an upper middle class family growing up.
I didn’t play in the dirt in New York City. So that wasn’t happening. And
also, I had a doctor who came to my house in Manhattan and did house
calls back in the day. “What are you going to do?” “Oh, have an antibiotic.
Here, take two. They’re small.” So that’s certainly an example of what
you were just talking about.

Razi Berry: I am lucky, Shivan. I grew up where my mother just didn’t know. As
children, we exaggerate memory. We have this bottle of milky-looking
pink amoxicillin. And I feel like there’s always a bottle of it in the
refrigerator.

Shivan Sarna​: And it’s all pink so it must be good for you because it’s friendly.

Page | 14
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
Razi Berry: Yeah, I can still taste it.

Shivan Sarna​: Understood, I’m with you. That is very, very interesting. I like the idea of
a slight distraction. It’s not necessarily numbing, but just a change of the
consciousness.

Razi Berry: I will go on to say that in other studies where children are having extreme
pain like surgery or cancer, definitely, the more attentive the parent was,
the more empathetic the parents was—there are lots of studies on touch,
hand-holding, embracing and just even empathy to reduce pain. So I just
want, for the record, to say that. But for just general stomach complaint,
your child has a stomach flu or something, or if they are being treated by a
naturopath or a functional medicine doctor for irritable bowel or SIBO,
and you already know you have that, and you’re controlled, there are
simple ways that you can just distract them away from their discomfort.

Shivan Sarna​: Discomfort, not pain because pain is a sign that something is super, duper
wrong.

Razi Berry: Yeah, exactly.

Shivan Sarna​: Go talk to a practitioner and get some support.

Razi Berry: Absolutely, yeah.

Shivan Sarna​: Absolutely.

So, one of the terms that I know you use for the gut is ​three hearts​.

Razi Berry: Yes.

Shivan Sarna​: Tell us about that.

Razi Berry: I did a summit a few years ago called ​The Heart Revolution: Heal,
Empower and Follow Your Heart.​ And the reason I did that was because
when I learned that heart disease was the number one cause of death in
women, and it’s something that we really talk about—

Page | 15
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 And as a child, I went into heart failure. I was dying of heart failure.
Shivan, which is really interesting and a story for another time, but my
heart healed. It caused me throughout my life—it’s a large part of the
work I do, including emotional and mind-body aspect to healing after
having that experience. It caused me to think about where does healing
come from and really look at the interconnectivity of the body.

So, when I was studying the heart and studying a lot of these hormones
and neurotransmitters of emotion, oxytocin which is definitely called ​the
big cuddle hormone and the ​love hormone.​ And so I wanted to learn more
about oxytocin.

And so, of course, it was found that oxytocin was just another
neurotransmitter that was thought to be created in the brain. But more
recent research (and some older research that somehow gets
overshadowed) shows that oxytocin is really important for regulatory
functions within the cardiovascular system.

So, not only is it important for childbirth and lactation and bonding and
maternal attachment—those hormones of bonding; sexual functioning
also—but it also regulates vascular tone and blood pressure. [35:10]

Razi Berry: And so, interestingly, the heart creates more oxytocin than the brain does.

Look at your brain, your heart and your gut. And your gut is often called
the second brain. Really, all three of these powerful organs are organs of
emotion and intelligence. So I think it’s more accurate than just calling
your gut your second brain to really look at these as three hearts. They all
have really their own nervous systems so to speak.

The gut-brain axis, for instance, is this bidirectional communication

between the gut—the enteric nervous system, the luminal wall—and the
central nervous system. And that HPA axis is included in that as well.

Shivan Sarna​: Tell me what the HPA stands for again?

Razi Berry: Hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal axis.

Page | 16
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
Shivan Sarna​: Yeah, hormone city.

Razi Berry: Yes, hormone city. And what was often called the limbic system is kind of
now being called the ​emotional motor system,​ kind of this revised name
for the prefontal cortex—the amgydala, the hypothalamus and all of these
parts of our brain that we used to think didn’t regenerate and we now
know to be more plastic.

So, the brain and the gut organizes and coordinates a lot of these activities.
Like we said, the mucosal lining that’s involved, they’re creating these
hormones and stuff. So it’s really this up-and-down communication
system.

And the heart is part of it as well because the heart creates these same
neurotransmitters also—vasopressin (which is mostly known for vascular
tone and blood pressure, but it’s also involved with emotions like envy
and jealousy and anger).

It probably sounds like I’m branching out all over the place. But really, if
you think about it, it’s this beautiful web in which our digestion and our
heart and our brain are all connected. And the more we try to look at how
connected they are, the more connected we find these are. They really
can’t be separated.

We can no longer think of the brain is just what does all the thinking
because, again, the heart beats largely on its own accord, and digestion is
one of the biggest, most important functions of your body and it largely
happens on its own.

So, these three operate just as independently with each other as they do in
conjunction with each other.

And it’s back to that chemo-sensing that we talked about in the luminal
wall. There’s just so much information happening at any given moment
that we don’t have to be cognizant of. But it’s really important that we do
pay attention.

Page | 17
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 We have this ability. There’s quite a body of research about this process
called ​enteroception or ​enteroceptive ability.​ And it really is the known
that our body has of itself. It’s really the way the luminal tract can sense
something and adjust bile that’s excreted by the liver and the gallbladder.
The mucosal lining works together with that to create these hormones.

It adjusts our blood pressure when we walk into to a colder climate which
can change our digestion and things like that.

So, enteroceptive ability has been studied in all sorts of aspects, including
in the business world.

And there was a study done that looked at futures traders on a

lending/trading floor. So these are men doing lots and lots of money—not
their own money. And so they’re very risky decisions when they make
these trades. And really, what this study found was the traders that follow
their gut feeling or their intuition of making risky decisions had better
outcomes, make more lucrative trades. They have longer careers.

So I’m just trying to circle back to this wisdom of the body. It correlates a
lot with what we historically talk about as that gut feeling or intuition.
[40:06]

Razi Berry: Have you ever had a meal and you’re full? So you’re eating a salad or
steak and you’re full. But then you could eat a few more bites of the
squash and we don’t seem full for some reason. It’s because of that
chemo-sensing in your body.

You have the satiety from the fullness in your stomach that sense signals
to your brain. But also, you’re also sensing the nutritive value. So your
body might be telling you still need more of this certain nutrients. And
that’s how you’re able to be full of some foods and be tired of it and
not—it’s also how sometimes you crave certain foods at certain times.
Your body is really looking for specific nutrients.

Now, I’m not talking about cravings like chocolate cake or something like
that.

Page | 18
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
Shivan Sarna​: Darn it! Darn it, that would be awesome. I ​need chocolate cake. It’s a gut
feeling. I get it. No, I understand. And “gut instinct,” right, “sucker
punched in the gut,” we could go on and on.

What are some things that we can do to help increase our awareness that
we’re talking about so we can have even more data to make better
decisions?

Razi Berry: Yeah. So first—and I’m sure you’ve covered this a lot—is to really be
cognizant of toxins in your environment. Chlorinated water, for instance,
it’s really important to drink filtered water because chlorine really impedes
the microbiota. So that could affect IBS and SIBO and cause an imbalance
of bacteria. So I think that’s something really important.

And also pay attention to what you’re cooking your food with. You want
to stay away from pans that are non-stick because they contain PFOA’s
(perfluorooctanoic acid). Those chemicals can really disrupt hormones.
And what helps us digest, what helps us with our blood sugar levels, that
helps us to feel hungry or feel satisfied, these are all hormones that we’re
talking about. And these chemicals can disrupt normal hormone
production and assimilation.

So you want to definitely avoid those and be careful. It’s best to cook with
cast iron pans, glass pans. If you must, as long as you don’t have nickel
sensitivity, you can use stainless steel pans.

Another thing, to really be able to listen to your body and make better
choices and also calm that central nervous system, pay attention to your
sense of smell. It is a very powerful mediator of hormones and of your
nervous system.

And an example of that is pheromones. Pheromones from another

individual give us a lot of information on their microbe diversity of their
immune system, of their fertility. And so it’s the same thing with foods we
eat. Your olfactory sense is very keen and has other chemo-sensing
abilities similar to what your digestive tract has. And so when something
smells off to you or bothers you or gives you a headache, it’s because it’s
Page | 19
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 actually having unhealthy physiological repercussions in your body.

So I always recommend to people to avoid perfumes and scented candles.

Stick with beeswax candles. Be careful with room sprays and things like
that. Your sense of smell is very closely associated with digestion and
with hormonal balance and even hormone production.

So it might sound like something silly, but you want to just breathe clean
air. The best way to keep the air clean is by putting plants in a room or
buying an air filter. But you don’t want to be spraying anything. And you
want to be careful with candles that don’t have cotton wicks because it can
get right into the air.

So, avoiding chemicals, filtered water, filtered air, having a lot of plants in
the air around you are really important ways to be able to listen to your
body.

As far as interoceptive ability—and you want to always check with your

doctor before making dietary changes—there are certain nutrients that
help with that neurogenesis hippocampal learning and memory. And
learning really happens every second. We’re taking in data from our
environment through our sense of touch, our sense of smell, as we talked
about, through our sense of taste. [45:08]

Razi Berry: And when you eat foods that are high in healthy fats like DHA and
EPA—so walnuts, fatty fish and oily fish if you’re not a vegetarian.
Supplements like phosphatidylcholine, egg yolks (again, if you’re not a
vegetarian) can really help nourish your nervous system and help you
listen to your body and help these connections that we talked about, these
super highway between your brain, your gut, and your heart.

Shivan Sarna​: It’s why also they call meditation a practice, right? So you can also
meditate to tune in. But it’s great to have these chemical nutritional
practices to do alongside with even just taking that breath, right, Razi?

Razi Berry: Yes, for sure. And another thing that I think should be talked about is if
you’ve had any trauma in your life. The study points to 61% of people
Page | 20
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 who have irritable bowel syndrome reported to have some sort of parental
distress or dissociation before the age of 15.

I have the numbers here—61% reported unsatisfactory relationship with

their parents before age 15, 31% reported losing a parent through death,
divorce or separation, and 19% had an alcoholic parent.

So, these emotions that we talked about early on like oxytocin, they’re
very important to the bonding experience as a child. And this bonding is
what makes you feel safe. When you have a close maternal and paternal, it
tells you that I live in a safe world. And it helps you build these healthy
adaptation to relationships and healthy ways to form attachments.

And so we’re seeing that hormones, of course, are involved. They are
produced in the gut and in the heart. They’re involved with digestion as
well. So it’s really important for any clinician to screen their patients or
have their patients screen for any sort of emotional trauma and make sure
that they’re dealing with that. That can often be the missing link, as I
say—and naturopathic medicine really honors this—the emotional
component, the trauma that some people face early on in their life.

Now, stress and adult trauma absolutely affect digestion as well. It’s just
oftentimes less hidden. Sometimes, children face these things, and it
becomes kind of embedded in your personality. They’re not so open.

Shivan Sarna​: And they might not even have language for it.

Razi Berry: Absolutely! Or sometimes, they don’t have the memory. The memory is in
their body and not so much in their mind.

Shivan Sarna​: And that’s where if you can find a trustworthy body worker, it could be
super helpful.

One of my—I don’t want to call it a rule, but it’s a rule for me. I always
try to just find somebody who’s going to be a touch therapist for me, who
sort of has their act together more than I do, or at least on the same level. I
really like to find someone who isn’t boozing it up and is taking really

Page | 21
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 good care of themselves, is walking their talk. They’ll be able to
understand your intention more as well as just be a cleaner vibration in
terms of a conduit of energy and that kind of thing.

Razi Berry: And definitely, massage is so great. Between your breast bone and your
navel, there’s an accupressure point—I don’t remember the name of
it—that you can have worked on if you’re feeling stressed. So, definitely
acupressure and acupuncture and massage are really powerful ways to
move some of that energy that you can hold on to.

Oftentimes, people feel like that they’re clenching up or not fully

breathing. Posture is really important too. The old naturopaths really spent
a lot of time talking about things like posture because when you give all of
your body just the room it needs to take in air and for the blood to
circulate—and that’s a good reminder for myself, to sit up straight and
kind of create more space for healing. [50:00]

Shivan Sarna​: And also, if you have adhesions, it’s just like compressing your adhesions
even more.

Razi Berry: Good point.

Shivan Sarna​: I only speak of that because of my own experience where I’ll have that
little pain from a place where I know we’ve released an adhesion. And
when I slouch, I’m like, “Ooh, there you are. Okay, let’s not remind you
of the past. Let’s be more open.” I know it’s really important.

And then, you think about squatty potty and being in the right posture for
when you’re eliminating, it’s wonderful to be going back to basics.

Razi Berry: Oh, absolutely.

I’d like to say something really quick too about forgiveness. I think we’ve
mentioned it briefly. But true forgiveness is something that can be hard to
come by. There’s this kind of new age thought of forgiveness that’s like,
“I’m moving on. That person hurt me. That business partner hurt me. That
spouse hurt me” or whatever, “I’m better than that. I’m taking the high

Page | 22
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 road and I’m moving forward,” you can hear from that mentality it’s still
anger. It’s kind of creating this hierarchy.

And what people in family constellations therapy, for instance, teach is

that real forgiveness is honoring your place in that, whether you allowed
that to happen or what piece you played into it.

And a better way to forgive is to say, “I’m really sorry this happened
between us.” Forgiving is really giving it away and not still holding on to
like, “Well, I forgave them… and I’m moving on.” See the difference
there? There’s still that anger. And it’s your own body that’s going to be
affected by your anger.

So, this one is a much better way to forgive and really let go of something.
And that doesn’t mean you go back for more pain. Real forgiveness is just
owning that you played a part in that. And sometimes, just that in itself,
you can feel your body relax. “I’m sorry this happened between us.”

Shivan Sarna​: Even if you’re just in the wrong place at the wrong time, that still works.

Razi Berry: Mm-hmmm… it really does . You’re always one of the parties involved.
Even if you were a victim, you’re always one of the parties involved.

Shivan Sarna​: Yup, that’s very interesting. I like that.

Also, Martha Beck is one of my favorite thought leaders as well. If you

guys don’t know who she is, it’s definitely worth finding her for truly
original thoughts. And she talks about how forgiveness doesn’t have to be
100%. It can be a sliding scale. Today, if you’re in that place where you
haven’t really given it up, it could be like, “Okay. Well, today, I forgive
them 45%. So I can sit with them at the dining room table for
Thanksgiving.”

It’s a coping mechanism. And then, when you’re feeling good about them,
then yeah, maybe you forgive them a little bit more, or maybe they’ve
driven you crazy, and you’re like, “I need to work on it. But right now, I
don’t forgive them.” So it’s just a tool, so it’s not so black and white.

Page | 23
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 Either I’ve forgiven you, or I haven’t, that can be extra pressure. So I like
this sliding scale too.

Razi Berry: That’s interesting. As long as you’re honest about the fact that that’s not
full forgiveness, I think that can work.

Shivan Sarna​: Yeah, that sounds like between your idea and that idea. It’s a good 2-step
process.

Razi Berry: Yeah, absolutely.

Shivan Sarna​: I like it.

Razi Berry: I can’t take responsibility for that idea. I learned that through
others—family constellations therapy and the work of Dr. Amy Agarwal.
It is beautiful though.

Shivan Sarna​: It is beautiful. You are! Thank you for being with us.

Razi Berry: Thanks, Shivan. It’s been really wonderful. I hope I was able to just shed
some light. It’s a very intricate web that would take much more time than
we had together. But I just wanted to touch on several points. So I hope it
was helpful.

Shivan Sarna​: I’m sure it is. It was for me.

And you know, we get so focused on “Should I be taking rifaximin? What

kind of probiotic strain was it that you said? How does that elemental diet
taste?” We can get so rabbitholed with those kinds of things—which are
very important. You know I know that, and I feel that way. But we’re
holistic beings. So I really am glad that we had this other level
conversation. When I hear it, even though I would tell you that I know
what you’re saying is true, I have to really ask myself: “How much am I
practicing that?” That’s why we call it a spiritual practice.

Razi Berry: I’d love to say that I have this little Facebook group called ​Love is
Medicine. It’s not the main work I do, publishing case studies and
naturopathic research. But it is just a beautiful group where we explore the
Page | 24
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.
 role that love and relationships to ourselves and each other and the world
around us, the way it impacts our biology, psychology, physiology and our
consciousness.

So, if anyone is interested in joining me there, you could find me at Love

is Medicine​ on Facebook.

Shivan Sarna​: How cool! That is a cool group. I’m going there, and I’m going to join
right after this.

Razi Berry: I’d love to see you there.

Shivan Sarna​: Okay, thank you. Thanks so much, Razi. We will be in touch. I really
appreciate your time and your wisdom.

Razi Berry: I look forward to sharing this with our community. And thank you for
making this happen, Shivan.

Shivan Sarna​: My pleasure. Thanks!

Page | 25
Non-Transferable Access Provided to ​IBS & SIBO SOS™ Summit Attendees
©2018 Chronic Condition Rescue - ​All rights reserved.