archived as http://www.stealthskater.com/Documents/Rich_01.doc [.

pdf]
(also …Rich_01.pdf) => doc pdf URL-doc URL-pdf

more of UFOs is at http://www.stealthskater.com/UFO.htm

note: because important websites are frequently "here today but gone tomorrow", the following was
archived on March 27, 2017. This is NOT an attempt to divert readers from any website. Indeed,
the reader should only read this back-up copy if the updated original cannot be found at the
original sites.

Ben Rich’s comments on UFOs and ESP

StealthSkater note: Ben Rich was the chief engineer for Clarence “Kelly” Johnson of Lockheed’s Skunk
Works which designed top-secret aircraft such as the U-2 spyplane, F117 stealth fighter, and the A-
12/SR-71 “Blackbird”, and the F-22 “Raptor”. After Johnson’s death, Rich took over in charge of
Skunk Works. (Boeing’s Phantom Works is a competitor to Skunk Works.)

Rich once made some hasty noteworthy comments at the end of a presentation:

(1) “We now have the technology to take ET home.”

(2) “We found an error in the equations and we now know how to travel to the stars. And it won’t
take us a lifetime to do it.”

(3) “To understand UFOs, you have to know ESP.” (This relates to quantum teleportation.)

Over the years, others have maintained that these were samples of Rich’s speech-giving style which was
intended to keep the audience attentive. The comments were never intended to be taken seriously. The
debate goes on.

What I find interesting is the teleportation (quantum entanglement) angle. If all points in Space and
Time are connected, then there should be a mechanism to navigate between them (albeit it might involve
extremely advanced engineering.)

Famed German rocket scientist Hermann Oberth allegedly remarked that the Roswell UFO craft
appeared to function more like a “time machine” than a navigating vehicle doc pdf URL .

Dan Sherman of “Project Preserve Destiny” fame reported that his “off-world(alt-dimension?)” contact
said that They “could travel around Time and from Time but not through Time; the latter was an
impossibility). doc pdf URL

Philip “Taylor” Kramer (famed missing person who worked on the MX-1 missile guidance system) had
a Eureka! moment when he solved his college electrical engineering father’s “The Equation”. It was a
unique “Theory of Everything” which claimed to theoretically prove an instantaneous transmission of
information to any point in the Universe. The elder Kramer added that physical teleportation might also
be possible. doc pdf URL

1
Eric Davis completed a teleportation feasibility study for the U.S. Air Force which concluded that
quantum teleportation was entirely possible. However, teleportation of everyday material objects was
highly unlikely due to the amount of time necessary for “reconstruction”. doc pdf URL

Radio AM works by “modulating” a high frequency electrical carrier wave with a low frequency audio
wave. Upon reception, the composite wave is demodulated and the carrier wave stripped off leaving
only the original audio sound. I have wondered if physical teleportation could not be accomplished in a
similar manner. Such as enclosing the object within a quantum bubble of some type of “field” (wave).
Now you can evade the reconstruction of the object by just transmitting the bubble and then stripping it
off at its destination. Of course, how you direct/transmit it from point ‘A’ to point ‘B’ is another
question. Could that be what happened in the Philadelphia Experiment (if the folklore is true) doc pdf
URL ? Or in UNITEL’s observations where the craft seemed to navigate between 2 distances
instantaneously doc pdf URL ?

Remote-viewing is the ability to psychically “view” an event. (There are also other forms such as
remote-influencing and remove-healing.) It has been proven to be valid but has drawbacks in that
frequently different RVers report quite different scenarios while “viewing” the same event. UK
inventor/RVer Thomas Skeggs postulated his “Star Chamber” which would permit real-time fully
interactive remote-viewing between a “viewer” and a “view-ee” any place in the Universe doc pdf URL
. Could this have already been done in the Montauk Project (successor to the Philadelphia Experiment)
doc pdf URL ?

Could Hollywood writers have picked up on this type of transportation. The navigators in “Dune”
traversed between planets by “folding space”. They didn’t move physically as in a conventional craft.
They just appeared at their destination sitting in the same “vehicle”. In the movie “Contact”, Joie
Foster’s device seemed to cause enormous atmospheric disturbances in her immediate vicinity as it was
creating the “wormhole”.

I sometimes wonder if Bob Lazar’s UFOs functioned by something similar and totally unrelated to anti-
gravity. In other words, his “gravity amplifiers” were more along the lines of Macroscopic Quantum
Tunneling (just like UNITEL). doc pdf URL

There may be a connection between UFOs/"time machines" and alternate realities which can be "seen"
when using psychedelic drugs => doc pdf URL-doc URL-pdf .

The above references would seem to imply a greater theoretical umbrella encompassing many different
events. Maybe we have been looking at conventional “nuts&bolts” technologies when we should be
investigating something more esoteric. If so, then perhaps there is something to Ben Rich’s alleged
comments (is he equating ESP with teleportation?) in the following ...

http://www.openminds.tv/lockheed-skunk-works-director-says-esp-is-the-key-to-interstellar-travel-
video-1092/23042

Lockheed Skunk Works director says ESP is the key to interstellar travel (Video)
posted by Alejandro Rojas July 26, 2013

2
 According to a UCLA engineering alumnus, in 1993 a fellow alumnus who happened to run one of
the most advanced and secretive aircraft development organizations in the World says the key to the
technology that will allow us to travel to the stars without taking a lifetime to get there lies in ESP.

Ben Rich was the director of Lockheed’s Skunk Works from 1975 to 1991. Skunk Works is a
division of Lockheed Martin that develops super high-tech aircraft and is responsible for developing the
U-2, the SR-71 Blackbird, the F-117 Nighthawk stealth bomber, and the F-22 Raptor.

In a recent interview with Open Minds, Jan Harzan, the new director of the Mutual UFO Network
told us about a presentation by Rich that he attended in which he feels that Rich shared some amazing
insight. Like Rich, Harzan received an engineering degree from UCLA. In 1993, Harzan received an
invitation from the alumni association to attend a talk by Rich at the alumni center.

Harzan attended the lecture with his friend Tom Keller who is also an engineering alumnus of
UCLA and shares Harzan’s interest in UFOs. Keller wrote a book on the topic titled The Total Novice’s
Guide to UFOs which was published in 2010. Harzan estimates there were about 200 engineers in
attendance.

Rich’s presentation consisted of a slide presentation outlining his 40 years with Skunk Works. The
last aircraft he discussed was the F-117 which was developed in the early 80s but was not revealed to the
public until the late 80s. Rich alluded to more advanced technologies which have been developed since
the F-117 but still remain secret.

Harzan says “He intimated that there was a lot of other stuff going on that he could not talk about.”

It was here that Harzan says things that began to get really interesting. Harzan told us: “He ended
his talk with a black disk zipping out into outer space and he ended it with these words: ‘We now have
the technology to take ET home.’ ”

Harzan says after this statement the crowd laughed. But he and Keller were shocked. He says “Tom
and I just looked at each other ‘Did he really just say that? And are these people really not getting that
what he is saying is real?’ ”

After the lecture, Harzan says 20-or-so engineers gathered up around Rich to ask more questions.
One lady asked about the technology to take ET home. But Rich sort of ignored the question. However,
after being pressed by a couple of the other attendees, Rich asked one of the engineers if they thought it
was possible to travel to the stars.

The engineer replied: “I don’t know. It would just take a long time to get there.”

3
 To which Rich responded that it would not. He told the group: “We found an error in the equations
and we now know how to travel to the stars. And it won’t take us a lifetime to do it.”

Harzan says Rich did not say what equations he was referring to. But Harzan assumes they are what
are known as Maxwell’s equations. However, he admits that this is just a guess.

Finally, Rich excused himself and began walking towards the door. Harzan called to Rich to ask
him one last question. He told Rich: “I have a real interest in the propulsion you are talking about that
gets us to the stars. Can you tell me how it works?”

Harzan says Rich stopped and looked at him. Then he asked Harzan if he knew how ESP worked.
Jan says he was taken aback by the question and responded: “I don’t know. All points in space and time
are connected?”

Rich replied: “That’s how it works.”

Then he turned around and walked away.

Harzan doesn’t know if he gave the answer Rich was looking for or if Rich was simply referring to
ESP as being the key to how the technology works. But he does believe there is something to Rich’s
response.

Harzan says he feels he left the presentation with 3 very important clues.

“One, we have the technology to take ET home. Two is there is an error in the equation. Finally,
the way ESP works is the same way that this technology works. So there you have it. All that is left up
to us is to go figure it out.”

Reader Comments

1. Jim / July 27, 2013 at 9:07 pm

This is possibly the most awesome thing I’ve seen in many years.

2. Alain Hubrecht / July 29, 2013 at 3:24 am

Indeed, ESP is a mean to connect to something that link everything in the Universe. So if
somebody finds how to master that connection, how to build some interface, and how to manage
some parameters, it should be possible to go anywhere, see, and maybe even talk to anybody there.

On the other hand, it could be more difficult to come back with some stones or gifts from ET :-)

However, it could be that with some more knowledge, moving stuff that way could be possible
like with PK.

People interested to search that area with me can write to dahut@skynet.be

3. LarryKat / July 29, 2013 at 12:18 pm

Gee, that’s nice. Someone on Earth knows the greatest secret that Mankind would know up to
this point but they are playing coy? I don’t think so.

4. Grant Cameron / July 29, 2013 at 7:54 pm

4
 Wonderful article on Harzan. It should be remembered that Dr. Eric Walker also brought up
ESP in a 1991 interview on UFOs. And that the Canadians were told by American officials in late
1950 that “mental phenomena” might be associated with the saucers.

5. Randy James / July 29, 2013 at 8:20 pm

Look up “Teleportation Physics Study” on the Web and read pages 55 and onward.

6. Guy Personsmith / July 29, 2013 at 8:39 pm

I have never seen such a tremendous claim laid out with such absolutely minimal evidence.

This is a third-party anecdote that claims interstellar travel and uses the acronym ESP, which is
seductive and mysterious to people interested in fringe-sciences. “But, but, they used the word
equation!”

Holy shit, I hope you people are smarter than this.

7. Faye / July 30, 2013 at 5:23 am

Seems pretty clear to me. I don’t think anyone is “playing coy” here. I think we have learned
something since the 1950s. Actually we have learned quite a lot. Why wouldn’t they find errors in
equations that were written so long ago? I think it is really quite wonderful that they continue to
research.

8. Zane Taylor / July 30, 2013 at 6:47 pm

If you read the “Andreasson Affair” books, you will come to the same answer. It is noted that the
greys control their ships through the “Spirit”. Ben Rich may be calling or referring to it as “ESP”
because people are more familiar with that term. He obviously knows more than he can divulge.

9. Brian Wallenstein / July 31, 2013 at 5:51 pm

It is simple. Quantum physics. First a teaser. In order to see light, we must be going faster than
it to see it. Secondly space, time, and gravity are expressions of omnipresence in expression.
Thought moves much faster than light, thus our own thoughts, and beyond that, our being-ness is
omnipresent.

Think yourself to your destination. Only after you discover the glitch in the equation is the
illusion of separation, that we are physical, that we are already where we want to be. Many mystics
have been doing this bio-teleportation for centuries, perhaps eons. But we are so hypnotized that we
have forgotten we know. The coy part is that all of us need to get there on our own (i.e., our own
understanding).

Why do they not tell us that they already sent a mouse from Washington DC to UC Berkeley in
the 1940s through what you’d call a fax transmission. When it comes to interstellar transmissions,
again the reality of One Mind where the observer and the observed are one is the key. The
mechanics of it all are nothing but in your mind. Pure light, consciousness.

10. Me / October 27, 2013 at 6:59 am

So let me see if I get this straight. Humans… a primate species… are so self-important that
when they travel, they HAVE to go from point A to point B.

And BECAUSE they’re so important, they’re willing to tear holes in the Universe to do so and
the damn the consequences because teleportation is absolutely necessary and a necessity of Life.

5
 Yeah. Okay.

I get the “cool sciency bit”. But when we’re working this level, perhaps we need to have a better
reason than “cuz”. I’m not against Science in any capacity. But stupid animals on a planet fucking
with space-time seems like pure hubris to me. I don’t think humans are emotionally mature enough
to deal with the consequences of our hubris at the moment.

http://www.remoteviewed.com/mcdonnell-douglas-ufos-esp-remote-viewing/
McDonnell Douglas UFOs, ESP, & Remote-Viewing
by Daz Smith
(An artist, designer, author, photographer and remote viewer. With over 19 years of public remote-
viewing under his belt in video and public remote viewing project work. Daz also published eight
martinis - a FREE remote viewing magazine available from http://www.eightmartinis.com
daz@remoteviewed.com )

The main focus of this article is centered around some documents that were allegedly left and found
in a barn (attached at the bottom of this article) and may have belonged to a Douglas employee who
moved. The new owner of the location found the files, and sold them on eBay.

These documents pertain to the research of small team of people in the Douglas Aircraft corporation
in 1967 – 1969. They show that some people there took the UFO phenomenon seriously and regarded
them as real physical objects. Someone decided that it was worth studying them in detail with a view to
developing a new method of propulsion based on a new theory of physics. This research was, of course,
Top-Secret.

I am a long time student and practitioner on the subject of Remote-Viewing. Remote-viewing (RV)
is the practice of seeking impressions about a distant or unseen target using subjective means. In
particular, (ESP) or “sensing with mind”. Which includes a 23-year program involving all aspects of the
American military and various spaghetti soup intel agencies (CIA, NSA, DIA, FBI amongst others) is
the investigation form McDonnell Douglas into contactee’s of UFO events and also in information
gathering through experimentation with ESP, years before the official program at SRI started in 1972.

What the documents detail is that a small department of McDonnell Douglas (which included a man
known as R.M. Wood [more on Robert Wood later] )set about trying to research and back-engineer the
potential propulsion systems of UFOs based on investigation of witness reports, contactee testimonies,
and ESP-derived information. This small group briefed the Condon Committee and had a budget of
around $500,000 between 1968 and 1970.

From further document sources within the CIA StarGate FOIA archives, it’s clear that McDonnell
Douglas was also still interested and exploring ESP as a technology nearly 2 decades later in the mid
80s.

For the layperson, the documents are very technical and discuss many theories and experiments with
advanced psychics and propulsion systems, equations and theories are detailed and explained. Enclosed
below are some of the highlights that piqued my interest.

“ANALYSIS OF UFO OBSERVATIONS

6
 Three avenues appear worthwhile for obtaining useful data from the UFOs:
I. Compilation of data in the Literature.
2. Interviews with “contactees”.
3. ESP.

There are many books (1OOs), magazine articles, and other sources of UFO reports. If
the data in these reports were carefully organized and scientifically studied -- which to our
knowledge has never been done -- it is possible that useful clues to the construction of a
vehicle would emerge. In view of this, a concerted effort is now in process to extract all
useful data from the tens of UFO books and the many magazines which currently are at hand.
In extracting the data, the only criterion will be whether-or-not the item extracted is
descriptive of the UFO or its occupants o: of the local environment.

A form has been evolved for recording the extracted data (see Appendix D). It is
anticipated that most events would be reported on the one page.

However, extensive reports such as D. W. Fry’ should start with this form but would
extend many pages. Eventually this portion of the program should result in an extensive
report which provides broad coverage of the I literature.

For the purposes here a “contactee” is defined as a person who may have • vehicle data
(principally propulsion data) which would be useful design clues.

Appendix E is a start of making a list of potential contactees. Once the list is completed a
cost/payoff ordering will be made and the interview plan will be firmed up.

Throughout much of the UFO Literature, there are indications that the observers have
been communicated information by non-conventional means presumably by extra sensory
perception (ESP). Comments such as “I heard it in my head” are common. A low priority
effort will be made to study the literature; to measure the signal, carrier (most likely
electromagnetic fields); and to determine how to communicate in this manner. If it can be
established that the communication scheme is real, then the last goal certainly should be
achievable.

If the communication scheme can be established, this in itself would be a significant

achievement. However, the utility to us would be to obtain vehicle clues by “eavesdropping”
or possibly by a direct back-and-forth communication link. The first step in this program
beyond the low level literature surveyed will be to measure the magnetic fields (and possibly
other phenomena) around someone’s head when he is supposedly receiving ESP
communication.

The approach so far utilized in the development of the kinetic particle theory of physics
has been to continually broaden the scope of qualitative application of the theory as a result
of reading a large number of books in diverse scientific areas while at the same time
generally tightening the analysis everywhere throughout the structure and particularly
making the analysis perfectly rigorous where possible. It is believed that this approach is
being successful and should be continued.

There are a large number of phenomena (particularly so-called psychic phenomena)

which appear to be beyond current Science. These phenomena may not be physical. But
they may be. In case of the latter, then clues to the structuring of a new theory may result
7
 from a study of these phenomena. In order to maximize success potential, a small I literature
survey and limited investigation effort on all strange phenomena appears to be well
worthwhile.

Along this line, there exists the phenomenon of “water dowsing” which undoubtedly
works but is not understood. This phenomenon is definitely worth examining and it is
planned to investigate it in the forthcoming months.”

What next interested me amongst a few hundred pages of complex psychics was a memorandum
titled “A New Communication Mode”. This paper examines the possibility of a new communications
navigation concept utilizing a mode of Information transfer adapted from natural phenomena other than
electromagnetic.

“18 Feb, 1969 memo

To: R.N. Wood form C.P. Thomas
RE: A new communications mode

Attached to this memorandum is a loose discourse on the feasibility of a new

communications mode which could be a parent or a product of a new propulsion mode.
C.P. Thomas (advanced concepts)”

“Development and Experimentation With the Human Link

If the equilibrium system honors a stable reference, then possibly it could be made to
honor coherent information content in the reference. Since all muscular coordination and
action is based on the reference provided through the equilibrium system, then perhaps
muscle action can be made to act on the coherent information. For instance, if it is sensed
that an “a” is received , then the finger could be instructed by the coordinated motor system
to point to an “a” on a chart.”

“It was found that the best sliding instrument is a small “jigger” glass inverted which has
an indentation in the base in which a fingertip will rest. The angle of the sides of the glass
provides a structure which will resist tipping over from the horizontal force supplied through
the fingertip.

The chart should be made so that the maximum movement efficiency can be utilized. It
was decided at first that an alphabetical circle was best. Later it was modified to an ellipse.

It was further hypothesized that if coherent information exists as a modulated portion of

the stable (gravitational) reference, then it would be identical for any number of persons in
immediate proximity to each other. Therefore, if 2-or-3 persons were to operate as
concurrent receivers, each with a finger on the inverted glass, the strength of the received
signal could be multiplied by the number of persons contributing.

On the very first trial, it was found that there is literally a plethora of intelligent~
information available through this method, that there are uncountable constant sources of
information. Since authentication of both source and information was impossible, the
experiment was continued based on observation alone without judgment as to the source or
content. The time of these experiments was in April, 1965.
8
 Unauthenticated information was received from locations indicating ranges up to
hundreds of millions of light-years away. If the source location were correct, the
instantaneous link indicated a mode of communication approaching infinite velocity (many
magnitudes greater than c in any case). When the link was utilized as a 2-way link, the
indication of this phenomena was even stronger as conversation ran back-and-forth with no
apparent lag where by the concept of c, such a link would be impossible. It was decided that
in as much as a reception was made, a transmission had been made and that a controlled test
should be performed.

First, however, requirements should be established for being a good receiver and for a
good transmitter.

From the small experience up to April 1965, we had learned that the best description of a
good receiver is a person who has found his inner peace. One who has learned that concern
and worry are not the same; who has found minute-to-minute, hour-by-hour, day-by-day,
month-by-month, year-by-year ways of meeting everything ranging from happiness and joy
to boring normalcy to extra ordinary adversity with calm acceptance, gaining victory when
necessary; accepting failure when unavoidable and turning it to success whenever possible.
It takes a relaxed mind and body to be a good receiver.

A good transmitter is a person who can think one thought excluding all other thoughts
even from his subconscious, without thinking himself into doing so. Top-flight lecturers and
show people have this quality persons like Danny Kaye and Johnny Carson are good
transmitters. They hold their audiences because their conscious and subconscious (through
the equilibrium system) transmit identical messages concurrently. The conscious message,
of course, is vocal.

A person who is both a good transmitter and receiver has the capability of switching
functions and attitudes instantaneously as necessary.

Our first step was to train 2 receivers. Two teenagers were chosen. A boy 15 and a girl
14. The training involved using a third person (male, age 45) as transmitter. This person
would transmit to any person anywhere (who would identify himself) and the person would
transmit back with the teenagers receiving the message. It was noted day-by-day that they
would move the inverted glass over the communication alphabet faster-and-faster until
finally they could not move the glass as fast as they could detect what they received. At that
point they discarded the glass and merely voiced the received message concurrently with
reception of the message.

Through all of this training, it was decided that authentication of the link was to be
avoided. It was found that any attempt to authenticate usually resulted in jamming the link
and entered sufficient doubt in the mind of the receiver such as to seriously hamper his
ability to receive. We discovered that complete faith in the success of the method is a
requirement for successful training, both on the part of the receiver and transmitter.

TESTING

At the end of a 2-week training and practice period, it was decided that a closed-room
controlled factual link test ‘was in order’. It was decided that the simplest information was to
be utilized: card suits.
9
 From a deck of cards, the 4 aces were removed. The Ace of Spades was discarded as the
spade in the center was large and ornamented. The deuce of spades was removed. The 4
cards then were placed face-up side-by-side in 2- spade, A-heart, A-diamond, A-club order.
The remainder of the deck (47 cards) was shuffled and placed face down. A 5″x7″ white
card with a 1/2″ diameter hole cut in the center was used by the transmitter to sight through
at the upturned card face suit symbol to be transmitted.

The transmitter sat in the living room on a couch with a card table in front of himself with
the cards arranged as described above. He faced the dining room with the receiver sitting ~t
the dining room table about 12 feet away from the transmitter with the back of the receiver
facing directly toward the transmitter.

The transmitter would draw a card, mentally note the suit, and set the card down face-
down. He then would sight through the holed 5″ x 7″card at the suit symbol of the
corresponding suit of the 4 face-up cards. His vision included only the whiteness of the
5″x7″ card, the hole in the card, the suit symbol, and the surrounding white area of the face-
up card made visible by the hole-card.

As soon as the transmitter established within himself that he was transmitting properly
(excluding all other thoughts but the image of the card suit being observed), he said “now”.
The time interval between drawing the card and “now” was usually 3-to-5 seconds. As soon
as the transmitter said “now”, the receiver stated one word: the name of the suit being
received.

By this method, 42 out of the 47 cards were transmitted and received correctly (the
correct suit being stated correctly by the receiver on the first try). The 5 missed ones were
analyzed by the transmitter to be errors on his part. He had allowed extraneous thoughts to
clutter his transmission.

Each time an error was made without knowledge of the receiver, the suit was
retransmitted making it appear as if a new card had been turned. On each of the 5 first-try
errors, the second try was correct.

The interesting fact about the second tri s was that the receiver knew they were second
tries in spite of the efforts to mask the fact. It was realized afterward that the receiver should
have known in spite of whatever masking attempts were made.

A simplification of the odds for 42 out of 47 successes would be that the odds in favor of
the successes would be 1 out of 4 (42).

So it would appear that there is a communication link which is capable of transmission

and reception of at least simple factual information. ln this case, there were 5 errors out of 47
bits (10.6%) which is well within known error correction techniques.

The degree of authentication by this technique lends some credence to the reception of
messages from sources on an instantaneous basis which should have involved from minutes
to mega years delay. For it was the daily practice with links at light-minutes to light-years
range which developed the capability of the receiver to receive factual information and read
it out consciously.

10
 In all of Man’s experience in physics, engineering, and psychology, the propagation
velocity of a gravitational field has never been determined; nor has it been determined as to
what generates the field. It could be (although it may not be) instantaneous. In all of Man’s
experience in. physics, engineering, and psychology, never has he encountered any proven
instantaneous phenomena.”

This document then goes on to say ...

“It should be stressed that in mind-to-mind communications, most links attempting to

deal with factual information fail. It appears that if one end of the link is regarded as the
interrogator and the other the responder, the responder often responds to interrogations with a
wishfully true answer rather than a factual one. It has been found that the mind-to-mind link
is loaded with wishful thoughts and jamming influences such as pretenders, impostors,
interrupters, kidders, and just plain liars.

If this type of communication is to be utilized, it will need much refinement over the
present mode of utilization (mind-to-mind). It can be expected that with controlled
transmissions and receptions, the transmitter (and interrogator) will be authenticatable as
much as they are in presently used electromagnetic systems and reception will afford much
higher selectivity and will be less subject to broad spectrum jamming.”

The documents then go on to describe telepathic communications with beings:

“SOME COMMUNICATION SAMPLES:

In communicating with many sources at many different ranges, a variety of topics was
covered which could fill pages on subjects from sociology, government, economics, warfare,
crime, and medicine to engineering and science.

A very few of the communications dealt with spaceships, their operation, and their
construction. Most of those contacted were reluctant to talk about these subjects. The few
times we were able to enter communications with anyone willing to discuss any mathematics
involved in space- propulsion, the link was unmercifully jammed by unknowns indicating
that there are those who deem it our task to find our own solutions. [StealthSkater note: I
have also read accounts of purposeful memory or visual implants. It sounds as if the
initiators of these have greater mental “powers” the humans (or at least humans of this time
period; maybe they are humans from the Future?).]

Some of the more interesting communications are summed here:

One source who stated that he was from another universe discoursed quite freely about
their spaceships and space travel. It was made quite clear that he did not mean another
galaxy or super-galaxy. He stated that he knew of our planet and had been by several times,
never having landed. He stated that it took about 5 of our days to travel here from his
universe using normal cruise speeds. That with top speed it could be accomplished in 3 days.

He stated that the rotor (propeller) in the ship is about 3 feet in diameter with 4 arms and
flattened tear-drop shaped magnets at the end of each arm. (It could have been that he meant
11
high permeability material rather than permanent magnets.) He further stated that advanced
ships accomplish the sane thrust with 2-foot diameter rotors. The rotor arms are hollow with
rods going to the magnets and a pitch control mechanism rotating the magnets. The magnets
change pitch with rotation of the control mechanism in the rods. Acceleration and speed of
the ship were controlled solely by pitch control of the magnets. [StealthSkater note:
somewhat reminiscent of Wilber Smith’s “Project Magnet” research doc pdf URL .]

Many different sources talked about their metallurgy. In the main. It was within our
knowledge. There was one source, however, which talked about a totally different concept
of metallurgy. He stated that they made their own atoms constructing them concentrically. It
had to be accomplished on planets or moons without radiation belts with great “guns” firing
the atoms at an accumulator. Through making concentric atoms, they can construct
extremely light metals with an excellent balance of strength, malleability, and brittleness by
virtue of being able to construct the central atom with far fewer neutrons than normally
required for the total number of protons in both the outer and inner atoms.

Through this method, it was stated, they are able to make absolutely pure light metals
with higher tensile strength and less brittle than we ever could through any alloy making
methods we have. He also stated that their motherships while in space manufacture oxygen
and nitrogen atoms from particles gathered in space. They are totally self-sufficient and
never need to land.”

“SOME SECOND ORDER UNEXPLAINED COMMUNICATIONS

In many samples of communicating with unauthenticatable sources, it was apparent that

it is possible to communicate with persons who have deceased. The length of time
elapsed since Death seems to have no bearing on the ability to communicate. [StealthSkater
note: this gets into Near-Death and Out-of-Body Experiences doc pdf URL .]

It appears possible for that portion of a person which survives after Death to travel in
time. For such as the case in many communications. Some vivid descriptions of past events
were given through this means.

Perhaps the most significant cause for pursuing this aspect of communications was the
strong indication of an entirely new concept in particle physics (if indeed we live in a
particle-based Universe). The closest approach this writer has seen toward a rational analysis
is in Terletskii “Paradoxes in the Theory of Relativity”.

“The point which became most significant to us who were training the teenage subjects
was that their unique factual proficiency resulted from unquestioning practice in
communicating with sources claiming to be multi-millions of light years away, with no
discernible time delay involved.

X. Language
Communication with distant unauthenticatable sources (although always accomplished in
English) almost without exception provided an interesting facet in language. All sources of
any distance and age preferred and attempted to communicate using the Greek alphabet
symbols (both capital and small letters). The symbols represent phrases which are
“rephrasable” as applied within different contexts and apparently represent a universal
language which is best termed as prehistoric Mayan. The vestiges of this language are
apparent in Polynesian tongues, American Indian, Eskimo, Yakut (spoken by the Oriental.
12
 CONCLUSIONS

1. The development of mind-to-mind communications as a means of study of the

gravitational phenomena is practicable within social and business limitations only
to a certain point; that point has been reached. Further development is possible
(i.e., to a point of vocal real-time readout and near-1OO% factual reliability).
However, it would require a real isolation from society and business associations
and a basic research philosophy. The persons involved also would require training
of their families in order to maintain the gains realized during company training.

2. Were probability theory employed, it is this writer’s estimation that it would show
gravity fields to be:
a) the most likely basis for mind-to-mind communications, and
b) the most likely means for satisfying the requirements of the ideal CNI System.

3. Were a gravity-CNI System developed, it would automatically offer a gravitational

field propulsion system as a by-product.

4. This dissertation is at best a qualitative and conceptual speculation concerning the

possibility of technologically leapfrogging into the optimum CNI System rather
than slowly evolving into it through years of modification engineering.

Actuality can be reached only through sound quantitative research and

development. The highest probability approach for successful transition from
concept to sound engineering would be through applied mathematics with a
concurrent experimental program.

5. This writer is of the opinion that a gravity-modulated CNI System is feasible in

hardware, be it through infinitesimals or imaginary mass particles.”

From reading the documents, it appears to me that the McDonnell Douglas research team
concluded:

I. Established and tested for accurate ESP ability and over time trained 2 people in this
technique to great effect.

II. They then went on to use these trainees to communicate with alleged lifeforms both
dead and alive and from many millions of miles away. [StealthSkater note: sounds
like Dan Sherman’s “Project Preserve Destiny” claims doc pdf URL ]

III. That the team believed they could with training, time, and social isolation achieve a
100% factual and real time readout of communications using trained psychics.

IV. That the UFO propulsions and mind-to-mind communication may be linked.

Robert M Wood Ph.D

13
 As promised earlier, we would come back to one of the people in these documents – Robert (Bob)
Wood Ph.D.

Robert Wood, PhD, has emerged as one of the leading researchers on the MJ-12 documents. He is a
co-director of the Crash Retrieval Conference held annually in Las Vegas and now in its 5th year. Dr
Wood’s 50+ years of contribution to extraterrestrial-related phenomena research extends well beyond
the MJ-12 documents.

He has a Bachelor of Science in Aeronautical Engineering from the University of Colorado and a
Ph.D. in physics from Cornell. He enjoyed a 43-year career at McDonnell-Douglas managing research
and development projects and has spent over 30 years privately investigating extraterrestrial related
phenomena.

He began research into the Majestic-12 Documents in 1995. Dr. Wood is considered a disclosure
witness because he worked in a senior capacity as an aerospace engineer at McDonnell Douglas. In
testimony provided to the Disclosure Project, he stated he was involved in a specific project at
McDonnell Douglas to study the propulsion systems of UFOs. In addition, he confirms the existence of
similar projects within the Aerospace industry and gives his assessment of the extraterrestrial nature of
the phenomenon.

In this video, Dr. Robert Wood describes the project at McDonnell Douglas and his 50 years of UFO
research: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFLwEJCAu5Q

Clearly, McDonnell-Douglas continued its interest in ESP, psychic, and remote-viewing shown by
these following document sources.

From the Star Gate CIA – Remote-Viewing archives – Oct, 1979 an article in the bulletin of the
Parapsychological Association stated:

McDonnell Establishes Laboratory For Psychic Research

A parapsychology center as been established at Washington University, St. Louis through

the support of James S. McDonnell, Chairman of the McDonnell-Douglas Corporation. Dr.
Peter R. Phillips, Professor of Physics, has been appointed Director of the Laboratory.

In making the $500,000 grant which established the new psi facility, McDonnell said:
“Man is approaching the evolutionary point where he is beginning to realize there is a
possible merging of matter and mind. And a priority item for current scientific research is
the understanding of human consciousness. The exploration of the deep inner space of
humankind can challenge intellectually adventurous men and women for generations to
come. From these explorations will surely come countless discoveries which in time can
make possible human life at higher levels of health, happiness, and creativity.”

McDonnell has a life-long interest in psi and is an Honorary Member of the PA.

Years later, McDonnell-Douglas are mentioned numerous times in the official StarGate
FOIA documents released from the CIA on the subject of Remote-Viewing. [StealthSkater
note: see doc pdf URL ] Douglas are mentioned as potential partners and researchers in the
field of Remote-Viewing.

14
 A later memo from the CIA StarGate Remote-Viewing archives says:

14 May 1984 – MEMORANDUM FOR RECORD

SUBJECT: Trip Report, McDonnell Douglas Astronautics Company, 11 May 1984.

I met with LTC Buzbv and Mr. Atwater, McDonnell Douglas Astronautics Company
(MDAC) Huntington Beach, California. The purpose of the meeting was to initiate
discussions with MDAC in compliance with directives to seek out additional/alternate
contractors to SRI- International (Incl 1).

MDAC had been recommended by CIA and DIA personnel familiar with CENTER
LANE.

XXXXXXXX executed the required security indoctrination briefing statements and were
provided a CENTER LANE Level 3 briefing. Discussions concerned MDAC’s development
and implementation of a set of operant profiling strategies designed to determine the
psychoenergetic capabilities of a selected individual.

By agreement, MDAC will provide information on their psychoenergetic development

capability in June 1984.

Biographies attached hereto (Incl 2 & 3) are professional, highly competent, and capable
of providing CENTER LANE with much needed contractual support and academic insight.
Their knowledge coupled with the resources of MDAC will enable CENTER LANE to begin
its recently expanded mission.

Also within the Star Gate archives is a small document detailing slides from an informal talk
presented by Dr Bob Wood – McDonnell Douglas, 9 June, 1982. This details PSI, remote-viewing, and
the connection to UFOs and about how real and valid each of these are.

What these papers and documents show is that McDonnell-Douglas already had a headstart years
before Remote-Viewing was even created and that UFOs, back-engineering of technology, and the use
of calibrated intuitives were actively being used to gather otherwise impossible to get. Information as
far back as the 1960s and were also well on topic within McDonnell Douglas well into the 80s almost 20
years later.

Makes you wonder what these black project based companies know and can do today, doesn’t it?

Sources:
http://www.checktheevidence.com/DouglasDocs/
http://www.thelivingmoon.com/41pegasus/12insiders/McDonnell_Douglas_UFO_Studies.html
An informal talk by Bob Wood on RV and other subjects (StarGate FOIA document) doc pdf URL-doc
URL-pdf

The Douglas UFO Docs – attached pdf file doc pdf URL-doc URL-pdf

15
 Ben Rich misquoted by many in the UFO community
by Norio Hayakawa
e-mail noriohayakawa@gmail.com

Ben Rich (June 18, 1925 – January 5, 1995) was the second Director of Lockheed’s Skunk Works
from 1975 to 1991, succeeding its founder, Kelly Johnson. Regarded as the “Father of Stealth”, Rich
was responsible for leading the development of the F-117, the first production stealth aircraft. He also
worked on the F-104, U-2, A-12, SR-71, and F-22 among others. He is the author of Skunk Works: A
Personal Memoir of My Years of Lockheed.

False unsubstantiated rumors abound when it comes to misquotes cited by many gullible UFO
researchers. Many in the UFO community seem to believe that Ben Rich stated during a 1993 Alumni
Speech at UCLA:

“We already have the means to travel among the stars. But these technologies are locked
up in black projects and it would take an Act of God to ever get them out to benefit
humanity… Anything you can imagine, we already know how to do.”

This is far from the truth. Ben Rich never said such a thing seriously.

Peter Merlin, in my opinion, is one of the most knowledgeable and respected military aviation
historians at the present time. I had the honor of meeting him in 2005 at the 50th Anniversary
Celebration of Area-51 which was held at the perimeters.

from SHADOWHAWK (aka Peter Merlin)- – August 27, 2013:

Ben Rich is constantly misquoted as saying “We now have the technology to take E.T
home”. That is not what he said.

At the end of his presentation, he showed his final slide. A picture of a disk-shaped
craft – the classic “flying saucer” – flying into a partly cloudy sky with a burst of sunlight
in the background and he gave his standard tagline.

It was a joke he had used in numerous presentations since 1983 when Steven
Spielberg’s “E.T. the Extraterrestrial”, a film about a young boy befriending a lost visitor
from space and helping the alien get home, had become the highest-grossing film of all-
time. Rich apparently decided to capitalize on this popularity. By the summer of 1983, he
had added the flying saucer picture to the end of a set of between 12 and 25 slides that he
showed with his lecture on the history of Lockheed’s famed Skunk Works division.

Rich had long used a standard script for his talks tailoring the content as necessary to
accommodate his audience. Since most Skunk Works current projects were classified, it
didn’t matter whether he was addressing schoolchildren or professional aeronautical
engineers. He always ended the same way.

At a Defense Week symposium on future space systems in Washington, D.C. on

September 20, 1983, he said: “Unfortunately, I cannot tell you what we have been doing
for the last 10 years. It seems we score a breakthrough at the Skunk Works every decade.
So if you invite me back in 10 years, I’ll be able to tell you what we are doing [now]. I can
tell you about a contract we recently received. The Skunk Works has been assigned the
task of getting E.T. back home.”
16
 The audience laughed. As it was meant to do.

If something is successful, it is worth repeating. Rich gave an identical speech at the

U.S. Naval Academy, Annapolis, Maryland on September 6, 1984 and continued using his
script during successive appearances. Sometimes he refined the details a bit.

“I wish I could tell you what else we are doing in the Skunk Works,” he said wrapping
up a presentation for the Beverly Hills chapter of the National Society of Daughters of the
American Revolution on May 23, 1990. “You’ll have to ask me back in a few years. I will
conclude by telling you that last week we received a contract to take E.T. back home.”

3 years later he was still using the same line and the same slide. “We did the F-104, C-
130, U-2, SR-71, F-117 and many other programs that I can’t talk about,” he proclaimed
during a 1993 speech at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Ohio, home of Air Force
Materiel Command, the organization responsible for all flight-testing within the Air Force.
“We are still working very hard. I just can’t tell you what we are doing.”

As usual, he added his by now infamous punchline: “The Air Force has just given us a
contract to take E.T. back home.”

Within the UFO community, Rich’s words and additional statements attributed to him
without corroborative proof have become gospel. He is named as having admitted that
extraterrestrial UFO visitors are real and that the U.S. military has interstellar capabilities.
Although nearly 2 full years passed between Rich’s UCLA speech and his death in 1995,
some believers have touted his comments as a “deathbed confession.” It was nothing of the
kind.

Rich, a brilliant scientist, apparently believed in the existence of other intelligent life in
the Universe, though only as something distant and mysterious. In July 1986 after Testor
Corporation model-kit designer John Andrews wrote asking what he thought about the
possible existence of either manmade or extraterrestrial UFOs, Rich responded: “I’m a
believer in both categories. I feel everything is possible.” He cautioned, however, that: “In
both categories, there are a lot of kooks and charlatans. Be cautious.” [StealthSkater note:
more of John Andrews is at doc pdf URL and doc pdf URL ]

There was no “deathbed” confession. His comments -- many of which have been
misquoted -- were taken from presentations he gave long before his death. Ben Rich gave
his speeches using a standard script. The content varied a bit over the years. He added
new material whenever something was declassified. But from 1983 on ,he always ended
with his joke: “We just got a contract to take E.T. back home.”
No matter how many years had passed since the last time he said it, it was always “we
just got a contract” of “a few weeks ago we received a contract.” That was part of the gag,
making it sound like a current Skunk Works project. Rich kept copies of his scripts which
he reused according to the needs of his audience along with photocopies of all of his slides
(including the “flying saucer”). So these details are easy to verify.
Jan Harzan, now executive director of Mutual UFO Network (MUFON), attended the
March 1993 lecture at the University of California, Los Angele, with fellow UCLA
engineering alumnus and UFO enthusiast Tom Keller. Keller, an aerospace engineer who
17
has worked as a computer systems analyst for NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, wrote
about it in the May 2010 issue of “MUFON UFO Journal” and Harzan recently shared his
story in a January 2012 interview with Web Talk Radio Network, and another with
Alejando Rojas of “Open Minds UFO News and Investigations” in July 2013.

Harzan says that after the lecture ended a few people remained behind to ask questions.
Some wanted to know more about the technology to “take E.T. home.” Harzan says Rich
initially brushed off these queries but allegedly told one engineer: “We now know how to
travel to the stars. We found an error in the equations and it won’t take a lifetime to do it.”

I have also heard Rich’s statement quoted as “First, you have to understand that we will
not get to the stars using chemical propulsion. Second, we have to devise a new propulsion
technology. What we have to do is find out where Einstein went wrong.”

Unfortunately, neither quote is verifiable. But the second one sounds more like the
words of an engineer, especially one with Rich’s stated views as outlined in his letter to
John Andrews.

As things began to wind down after the UCLA speech, Rich said “I’ve got to go now”
and started to walk out of the room. Harzan pursued him and continued to ask him about
the workings of interstellar propulsion systems. It was an unanswerable question in light of
our current scientific knowledge.

Rich finally stopped and turned, then asked Harzan an unanswerable question of his
own. “Well, let me ask you. How does ESP work?”

Stunned, Harzan stammered: “I don’t know. All points in space and time are
connected?”

Rich responded “That’s how it works” and then abruptly turned and walked away.

From the tone of the exchange, it sounds more like Rich, having been kept well past his
planned departure time and tired of being pestered, was simply anxious to leave and not
that he was sharing some great technological secret.

Harzan and others have interpreted Rich’s final comments as a tacit admission that
interstellar propulsion technology exists; that it is in the hands of U.S. scientists; and that it
involves a specific set of known equations. But taken in context, it sounds more like Rich
carried his joke too far and talked himself into a corner. It is likely that he would have said
“That’s how it works” no matter what Harzan’s answer to the E.S.P. question. Even if
Rich had said “Look, I was just kidding,” it would have done no good. The damage was
done.

In 1994, a year after the UCLA lecture, Rich told Popular Science magazine: “We
have some new things [at the Skunk Works]. We are not stagnating. What we are doing is
updating ourselves without advertising. There are some new programs. And there are
certain things -- some of them 20 or 30 years old -- that are still breakthroughs and
appropriate to keep quiet about [because] other people don’t have them yet.”

18
 He didn’t disclose or even hint at any advanced interstellar propulsion technologies
because there was nothing to disclose.

Reader Comments
1. Curt Collins / July 3, 2016 at 12:29 pm
This piece originated as a post on ATS by aviation historian Peter Merlin who later greatly
expanded the material, providing documentation and illustrations in an excellent article for Tim
Printy’s SUNlite “Taking ET Home: Birth of a Modern Myth.” See pages 17-19 at
http://home.comcast.net/~tprinty/UFO/SUNlite5_6.pdf

2. CIVILIAN INTELLIGENCE NEWS SERVICE / July 3, 2016 at 2:29 pm

You are absolutely right, Curt. Peter Merlin used “shadowhawk” as his pen name when he used
to post his items. He is, in my opinion, one of the most knowledgeable and highly respected military
aviation historians at the present moment. In 2005 I had the honor of meeting him at the 50th
Anniversary Celebration of Area 51 which was held right near the perimeters.

I believe his item is also found on page 17 of

http://www.astronomyufo.com/UFO/SUNlite5_6.pdf

3. dd@ii.com / October 23, 2016 at 4:22 am

Does it not make logical sense that an obviously intelligent man such as Harzan would be able to
make the distinction between a joke and a literal statement? If not, what about Tom Keller who
according to Harzan also agreed the line about ET was not a joke? 2 educated highly intelligent men
didn’t get the joke?

And is there any reason why we should assume that Rich’s response “That’s how it works” was
misunderstood by Harzan? Why should we believe an alternative explanation from a third person
account over the person who actually had the conversation?

I’m just asking ...

4. Jerry Greelis / December 29, 2016 at 11:35 am

Having given speeches as a toastmaster and in business, humor adds attention getting. I’ve used
it many times. The manner it is given is the key to laughter and excitement.

However, when an Aerospace engineer with the position and experience of Mr. Rich making
jokes about having the means to reach the stars, I truly doubt many was laughing. Especially his
audiences.

Also, having high security clearances with the Military, DOD, and NASA, I am quite aware of
the obligation that goes with this responsibility as Mr. Rich would have known also. If I wanted to
relay information in a speech, I could do it as a manner of jokes. Depending then upon my audience,
how this humor would be taken. 2 years after the 1993 speech, Mr. Rich on his deathbed made
statements that ETs are real and also UFOs (both theirs and ours). I doubt seriously he was joking
then!

19
 Probably what makes more credibility to me on his statements was the supposedly ending words
he made going out the door. “That is exactly how it works”. I worked at JPL and was an assistant
project engineer on the Pioneer 10 space probe (then to be the first object to leave the Solar System).
I do have some experience in space and aware that interstellar travel requires more than propulsion.
One needs a different communication system also. 5,000 lightyears away, a spacecraft cannot wait
5,000 years to get a command to it. That’s common sense. And as far as the propulsion system
goes, no other possible system could ever reach the stars than the one he proposed.

When he was talking about an Einstein equation, the equation most probable being in Special
Relativity versus what most scientist would believe to be in General Relativity. But also it could’ve
been in the Unified Field Theory plus Special Relativity. Go back to Nikola Tesla for the real
answers. [StealthSkater note: Einstein’s unfinished UFT reportedly brought ElectroMagnetism and
Gravity under the same theoretical umbrella. Therefore E-M might be used to create artificial
gravity doc pdf URL . Also there are folklore pertaining to mysterious Levinson[sp?] “Time
equations” used in the Philadelphia Experiment and Montauk Project doc pdf URL .]

Having experienced a UFO on radar while in the USAF with two F-89D’s scrambled out
Oxnard, AFB in pursuit, we watch 2 turtles trying to catch a roadrunner. That was 1957 and 4
different radars tracking it. No one could ever convince me ‘something’ that was detected on 2
adjacent nights just magically appearing and hovering as a target; then when pursued accelerated and
performed a 90-deg maneuver that resided outside anything the known Military had.

One also needs to take into account that Peter Merlin makes his living on Area-51 info. What
else would he say?

https://www.gaia.com/article/ben-rich-lockheed-martin-and-ufos
Ben Rich, Lockheed-Martin, and UFOs
Gaia Staff / October 14, 2016

Ben R. Rich -- brilliant scientist, aeronautical engineer, and “Father of Stealth” -- is more of an
enigma now than he was during his lifetime. He is most noted for designing a stealth fighter-plane that
flew undetected by radar and for his role as the second director of Lockheed Martin’s top-secret Skunk
Works program. Born in 1925, Rich passed away in 1995 with controversy still brewing among his
friends, critics, and those who heard him speak publicly about whether-or-not he believed in UFOs and
extraterrestrials.

Many questions remain unanswered. Was there a Ben Rich deathbed confession where he admitted
that he knew that extraterrestrials and UFO visitors are real? Did he publicly mean it when he claimed
that “We now have the technology to take ET home” or was it a joke? Is there credibility to other
statements attributed to him in which he allegedly claimed technology learned at Roswell was used to
influence the development of top-secret U.S. aircraft? Are the alleged communications from Rich to his
friend John Andrews credible?

With Rich’s last breath, definitive answers to these questions were lost forever.

Ben Rich and Skunk Works

20
 Lockheed Martin’s Advanced Development Projects (ADP) known officially as Skunk Works was a
secret aeronautical research facility in Burbank, California. The founder and first director of Skunk
Works was Clarence “Kelly” Johnson who was the designer of a U.S. spy plane called the U-2. Ben
Robert Rich joined Skunk Works in 1954 and helped design various aircraft including a prototype that
could reach speeds more than 1,300 mph. He became the second director of Skunk Works, holding that
position from 1975 until his retirement in 1991.

Rich was best known for his design of the first operational stealth aircraft which are aircraft that are
undetectable by radar. According to one source: “Nearly all of the programs he worked on began as top-
secret projects ... that were tested at the infamous Area-51 in Nevada, focus of much UFO lore.”

Rich received many awards through the years including the award from the Department of Defense
for Distinguished Public Service. After his retirement, he continued to speak around the Country on the
achievements of Skunk Works. Some believe things he said at those public events support his belief in
UFOs and ETs. Others say he was only “joking” with some of his comments. There are also letters that
he wrote to a friend and evidence of an important phone conversation he had just a few days before his
death. Both shed light on his UFO and ET beliefs.

Communications Between John Andrews and Ben Rich

John Andrews was a Lockheed engineer and personal friend of Ben Rich. Andrews expressed his
own personal opinion that UFOs existed in a letter he wrote to Rich, asking Rich to share his own
opinion. Andrews claimed that Rich responded that he believed "There are two types of UFOs. The
ones we build and the ones they build... I am a believer in both categories. I feel everything is possible.
Many of our man-made UFOs are Un-Funded Opportunities.” Rich underlined the “UFO” in “Un-
Funded Opportunities” but gave no explanation.

Rich continued stating that most “biomorphic” aerospace designs were inspired by the Roswell
spacecraft. Rich wrote that he believed the American public “could not handle the truth” about UFOs
and ETs. However, he changed his mind toward the end of his life and felt that keeping the secret could
be more of a danger to “citizens’ personal freedom under the United States Constitution than the
presence of off-world visitors themselves.”

##Ben Rich’s Standard Speech: True Comments or Jokes? During a 1993 Alumni Speech at UCLA,
Rich stated: “We already have the means to travel among the stars. But these technologies are locked up
in black projects and it would take an Act of God to ever get them out to benefit humanity... Anything
that you can imagine, we already know how to do.” At the end of the speech, Rich said: “We now have
the technology to take ET home.”

Critics say that Rich either did not make the comment about taking ET home or he was not serious if
he did say it. They point out that Rich first used that statement to conclude his speech in 1983 shortly
after the Steven Spielberg film “E.T. The Extraterrestrial” hit the big screen. The comment at that time
was made as a joke and received a positive audience response. So he continued to use it.

Critics discount the reports of two reputable witnesses at the 1993 speech who spoke with Rich after
the speech was over. Jan Harzan and Tom Keller (both engineering alumni of UCLA and UFO
enthusiasts) caught up with Rich after his speech and asked him to explain his “taking ET” home
comment. The following oft-reported exchange occurred.

21
 Harzan reported that Rich said: “We know how to travel to the stars. We found an
error in the equations. And it won’t take a lifetime to do it.”

Harzan laments that Rich “didn’t say what the equations were”. So Harzan pursued
questioning Rich on “the workings of interstellar propulsion systems.”

Rich turned to Harzan and asked: “How does ESP work?”

Harzan replied” “I don’t know. All points in space and time are connected?”

Rich said: “That’s how it works.”

According to Harzan, Rich then turned and walked away. Harzan interpreted Rich’s comments to
mean that U.S. scientists are aware of the existence of “interstellar propulsion technology” which
involves a known set of equations. Critics say it was just Rich’s way of continuing the joke.

##Ben Rich’s “Deathbed Confession” James Goodall, aerospace journalist and an in-demand public
speaker, became friends with Ben Rich. Goodall states that he spoke with Rich about 10 days before
Rich died. The conversation took place over the phone while Rich was in the USC Medical Center in
Los Angeles where Goodall claims that Rich said: “Jim, we have things out in the desert that are 50
years beyond what you can comprehend. If you have seen it on Star Wars or Star Trek, we’ve been
there, done that, or decided it wasn’t worth the effort. They have about 4500 people at Lockheed Skunk
Works. What have they been doing for the last 18 or 20 years? They’re building something.”

Ben Rich was a brilliant engineer whose contributions to the aerospace industry are still out of this
world. His inquisitiveness continued throughout his life. Even critics who question whether he made
some of the comments attributed to him believe that at a minimum, he believed in “the existence of
other intelligent life in the Universe” even though he thought it likely to be distant and definitely
mysterious.

Want to learn more about Ben Rich and his role in deep space exploration? Be sure to view the
latest episode of Deep Space: Secrets of Anti-Gravity.

https://www.quora.com/Can-ESP-get-us-to-the-stars-to-find-an-exoplanet-to-colonize
Can ESP get us to the stars to find an exoplanet to colonize?

Jerry Greelis, Object Teleportation - Telportx.com

Written 9 Nov 2015

Ben Rich, the second director of Lockheed Skunk works from 1975-1991, states in a speech to
hisUCLA alma mater 3/23/93:

“We already have the means to travel among the stars. But these technologies are locked up in
‘black projects’ and it would take an act of God to even get them out to benefit humanity … Anything
that you can imagine, we already know how to do it.”

22
 Rich later on how we could reach the stars, how UFOs worked, he stated:

“Let me ask you. How does ESP work?” ...

‘All points in time and space are connected ...”

“That’s how it works!”

Is Rich implying something paranormal here or is he giving us an analogy? Since this coming from
a scientist, one would presume an analogy. So how does Extra-Sensory-Perception (ESP) work and how
does this coincide with the capability to reach the stars?

ESP is a thought application that can transfer one’s mind activity across distances in space without
any physical forces applied. Some ESP applications being telepathy, used to heal, extra visions, etc.
ESP phenomenon viewed by the scientific community as being outside physical nature and thus not
normal (i.e., paranormal) in today’s world.

Rich goes on to say that they were using Russian equations:

“We now know how to travel to the stars. There is an error in the equations. We have figured it out,
and now know how to travel to the stars. And it won’t take a lifetime to do it. It is time to end all the
secrecy on this as it no longer poses a national security threat and make the technology available for use
in the private sector. There are many in the intelligence community who would like to see this stay in
the black and not see the light of day. We now have the technology to take ET home.” [1]

It is possible Rich was talking about the set of equations by a Russian Scientist named Eugene
Podkletnov’s gravity beam projector and T. Townsend Brown’s electrokinetic thrusters that could
theoretically achieve 3,000 times the speed-of-light for a craft [2], thereby travelling to the Magellan
Cloud, some 180,000 light-years away in 60 years. Of course, at that speed one would never even see
the cloud when passing by. In addition, what benefit would exist to even get there should one
decelerates to do a slow flyby?

This is where real object teleportation enters the mission and provides the actual benefits of going
into deep space – exploration! Teleportation is transferring objects from Point ‘A’ to Point ‘B’
instantaneously no matter what the distance is within our 3-dimensional Universe. The constraint being
the teleportation technology needing to be at both points in space. Meaning that once the craft is at the
Magellan Cloud with the technology, instantaneous object transfer can be made.

Back to ESP, why did Rich use this to be his analogy? ESP in effect is transferring information in
space, not physical objects. This sensory information is using a different channel to transfer its
information than what we experience with our technology today (e.g., TV, radio, internet, etc.). It is
most likely using the same channel that entanglement uses. It is probably instantaneous if the transfer
happening outside our dimension; time not involved.

Today ‘black projects’ scientists developed a new science based upon ‘ether physics using
Subquantum Kinetics’. This science uses etherons that diffuse and react with each other versus the
static quarks. Now with this new science they can manipulate physical objects with technology. It’s
similar to psychokinesis (another ESP application). Could this be the link Ben Rich was referring to ‘get
us to the stars?’ A science duplicating ESP!

(1) http://www.collective-evolution ....

23
(2) Secrets of Antigravity Propulsion, Paul A. LaViolette, PhD, 2008, pages 188, 189

http://skeptiko.com/grant-cameron-ufo-sightings-and-extended-consciousness/
179. What Happened When the “Father of Stealth” Told His UFO Secrets? Hint — It’s ESP
by Alex Tsakiris | Skeptico / Jul 31

Join Skeptiko host Alex Tsakiris for an interview with UFO researcher and author Grant Cameron.
During the interview, Cameron explains how his research led him to uncover the connection between
ESP, telepathy and the UFO phenomena:

Alex Tsakiris: One of the things that we like to do on Skeptiko is to keep pulling on a string and follow
it as far as we can. That’s led me to you because when you look at human consciousness and you
start looking for explanations for things like telepathy, precognition, out-of-body experiences, and
other altered states of consciousness it eventually leads to this UFO thing, and the numerous
reports of mind control and telepathy associated with it.

So when I heard you say government insiders who really know about the UFO have told you
that you can’t really understand this UFO phenomena without having an expanded view of
consciousness, I was intrigued. Tell me how you came to this conclusion

Grant Cameron: …We tracked this guy down. He turns out to be Dr. Eric Walker who was former
President of Penn State University. For 15 years he was the Chairman of the Board of the Institute
for Defense Analysis which is the top military think tank for the United States military. He was
the co-developer of the homing torpedo. He was friends with Vannevar Bush. He had this
incredible unbelievable background of military and connections with Presidents and stuff like this.

So when we go to him, we’re interviewing him as UFO researchers. We’re not thinking about
the Mind and Consciousness. We couldn’t care less about that, no connection whatsoever. We’re
talking to him and we’re trying to find out about this supposed UFO group that runs the whole
thing. The MJ-12. We’re asking him questions about MJ-12.

“Did you have contact with the aliens? How did the thing operate? How did you cover-up the
UFO thing?”

And suddenly in the middle of one of these interviews in 1990, he suddenly cuts off the
conversation talking about hardware, about bodies, and all this. He suddenly says: “How good is
your sixth sense? How much do you know about ESP?” And Walker says “Unless you know
about it and how to use it, you will not be taken in.”

…Then in 1993 there’s a related story about a conversation that takes place with Ben Rich.
Ben Rich was the guy who ran “Skunk Works” where the U2, the SR-71, the Stealth fighter, the
Stealth bomber, they were all developed by what was called Skunk Works. Ben Rich ran it and he
would get a number of questions about was this UFO technology?

He’s giving a lecture in 1993. He’s dying of cancer. He gives a lecture at UCLA to a bunch of
engineers and he’s talking and he says “We’ve got the technology to take ET home.” He gives his
lecture. He finishes the lecture. He’s walking out and one of the engineers who was interested in

24
 UFOs runs after him. He asks “How are these things propelled? How are UFOs propelled?” nd
Ben Rich turns around and says to him” “Let me ask you a question. How does ESP work?”

Alex Tsakiris: Today we welcome Grant Cameron to Skeptiko. Grant is a highly-regarded UFO
researcher who’s made some fascinating connections between what we know about the UFO
phenomena and the kind of extended human consciousness we talk so much about here on
Skeptiko. Grant is in the process of publishing 2 new books and regularly blogs at
www.presidentialufo.com . Welcome, Grant, thanks for joining us.

Grant Cameron: Thanks, Alex, for having me on.

Alex Tsakiris: So Grant, one of the things that we like to do on Skeptiko is to keep pulling on a string
and follow it as far as we can. That’s what I think led me to you because when you look at human
consciousness and you start looking for explanations for things like telepathy, precognition, out-of-
body experiences, and all the altered states of consciousness that serious researchers like Rick
Strassman has looked into with his DMT research. Or even Terence McKenna used to talk about.

When you try to take that in whole and then you keep pulling at it, that string eventually leads
you to bumping up against this UFO thing and the numerous reports of mind-control and really
consciousness-bending kinds of ideas that you run into. So when I heard on an interview and I
heard you saying that the government insiders who really know about the UFO KIP thing, all say
that you can’t really understand this UFO phenomena without having an expanded view of human
consciousness.

Well, I guess that really got me intrigued and that’s what I was hoping we would talk about
today. So let me start with this. I want to jump right to the end and tell me how you came to this
conclusion about Consciousness being fundamental to understanding the UFO phenomena.

Grant Cameron: Okay. Maybe I should first set up a little bit of my background. What happened was I
got involved in 1975 just at the end of the Vietnam War right along the Canadian/U.S. border
where the U.S. have all their Minuteman III missile silos. That’s where we had a bunch of
sightings. Now before then, I’d never thought about UFOs. I had no interest whatsoever.

But I did have an interest in stuff like Edgar Cayce and reincarnation research. I was very
interested in the work of Dr. Michael Newton. I was very much interested in Near-Death and
Consciousness and stuff. But UFOs I had no interest whatsoever.

So I started in 1975 and I had these sightings and really the consciousness thing didn’t come up
for like 35 years. It wasn’t until I was at a conference last year in Phoenix, Arizona and I’d filed a
lot of UFO material. It started with sightings, realized that sightings really wasn’t getting us
anywhere, and got into the government aspect of the documents and somebody must know about
this sort of stuff. So for 35 or 37 years, I collected material and documents and all this sort of
stuff…

Alex Tsakiris: Now, Grant, let me interject here. You’re kind of glossing over the extent of your
research which I think is phenomenal. We can talk about the whole field of UFO research and
how an independent UFO researcher like you has the guts and determination to do this. But you’re
a guy who’s filed how many Freedom of Information requests? And how many have you filed and
how many pages of documents are we talking about that you’ve gathered in your research?

25
Grant Cameron: Oh my goodness. I’ve got over 100 Freedom of Information requests with the Clinton
Library. What you do is you basically go to different departments. And what I’d done was I tried
to find who had the answer. I figured that well, the President of the United States is supposedly
the most powerful man in the World. He must know.

So I would file with various presidential libraries looking for their documents on UFOs. And
also on remote-viewing psychic phenomena, this sort of stuff, trying to find out what the President
knows about these very sort of intricate involved parts of reality and figuring at his level he must
have a better idea than you and I in the public would know.

So Clinton was very interested in consciousness and UFOs. Hillary was very much into ...
You know she got caught with this channeling thing with this Jean Houston in New York City.
This big scandal where she was talking to Gandhi and Eleanor Roosevelt. So they were really
interested. I filed a lot of Freedom of Information requests there and basically traveled to all the
different presidential libraries looking for these documents. It really wasn’t that successful except
for the Clintons.

In terms of documents, I probably have oh, maybe 10,000 pages of material. A lot of it is not
the hard answers sort of stuff but stuff that sort of relates. So I’ve collected an awful lot of
material just trying to put it together. There really wasn’t much of an answer.

I’ve had these sort of moments of insight. One was when I had my first UFO sighting in 1975
which it’s sort of just a hit you and it’s like Whoa! I didn’t believe this existed. The other one was
when I saw Dr. Michael Newton talking about Life Between Lives. He lectured in about 1990 in
Laughlin, Nevada. I saw that lecture and that just changed my life. The third one was when we
got into this consciousness thing. This was last year in Phoenix where all the UFO lecturers and
this conference goes on for about a week and it’s lecture-after-lecture for a whole week.

I listened to all these different lectures. There seemed to be this thing where various people
who were talking were talking about Consciousness. It wasn’t the main part of their lecture but it
was just a sub-topic in the lecture. For example, Dr. Steven Greer (who did the disclosure news
conference trying to expose all the high-level government witnesses) talked about this
consciousness thing. That this is at the basis of the UFO interaction with the Earth.

David Sereda and all the various abduction researchers who would talk about this mental
telepathy thing that was going between the abductees and the aliens. Nothing happened by word
of mouth. It was all telepathy.

So this is sort of a sub-topic. But it wasn’t until the last lecture given by Colin Andrews.
Colin Andrews is -- for people who know the crop circles -- the famous crop circles in England,
Colin Andrews is the key researcher. He started in 1982. He is the top researcher on crop circles.
He gave this lecture which was called “Circles of Consciousness” or something like that.

It was one of these mind-altering things that when I heard his lecture talking about the fact that
the aliens were making crop circles. But they were also controlling the people who were
hoaxing crop circles. That was his whole lecture. That 80% of the crop circles are hoaxed. But
that the people that he talked to who are hoaxing the crop circles were talking about some sort of
interaction. Some sort of force that was getting them to make certain types of circles.

So his thing was that the aliens control the whole thing. The real circles and the hoax circles.
It was this whole idea that the aliens were sort of in control of what is going on. They’re part of
26
 the cover-up and they’re part of this interaction with the human race that they’re leading us along.
I got this instant insight for 35, 37 years of research where suddenly everything fit together. All
these stories that I could relate to you. These little things that I’ve known for years and years and
years. Everything suddenly fit together.

Alex Tsakiris: Grant, hold on because there’s a lot going on here. I want to back up for a minute and say
that this realization that you had that these pieces fit together, I think is kind of interesting. I share
your perspective on it. From the beginning, these accounts have always had this element to them.
This extended consciousness. We had Stan Friedman on this show a while ago. This show that
we’re doing today, Grant, will be only the second show that we’ve ever done that touches on
UFOs.

Again, our approach to it is to look at the connection between consciousness. Stan Friedman,
of course you know, did some pretty extensive work on the Betty and Barney Hill abduction case
in 1950. He’s not that interested in consciousness so he immediately brought to the table ... Well,
yeah, this guy pulls off the road, has no reason or explanation for why he’s done it. And then is
communicating telepathically. So you have both the mind-control—why would this guy who’s
really kind of fastidious and would never get in the dust and the dirt pull off on this gravel road
and get outside of the car? And then how did he know this stuff without communicating?

So from back in the ‘50s, there are these reports. I just want to emphasize what you brought
up. That this has been hanging around there for a long time and no one’s really put the pieces
together. Now that I’ve interrupted you, I want to get you back on track.

Grant Cameron: Okay, let me clarify that compared to there’s a part of the UFO community that
believes very deeply in the abduction stuff. If you listen to the 2 top researchers who were David
Jacobs and Budd Hopkins, they talk about the fact that after 1975 we knew everything we knew
about UFOs in terms of sightings. You had to get inside the craft to know what was going on.
And they would talk about this interaction between abductees and the aliens. But they made the
connection that other than that all the people who have talked to the aliens, it’s all hoaxes.

Like back to the 1950’s. The Betty and Barney Hill thing did not start until 1962 when they
started to make this thing public. Before then, for example, when they were first abducted they
went to NICAP which was the biggest UFO group in the world at the time. It was headed by
Major Kehoe and he said: “This is nonsense. Little aliens do not abduct people on the roads.” He
basically would not touch this thing with a 10-foot pole.

The same as J. Allen Hynek who was probably the most prominent UFO researcher in the
world, the same thing. He said: “Stay away from abductions. It’s no good. Don’t go to
abductions.” And a lot of people avoided that sort of interaction thing.

One of the things that people left out when you get Hopkins and people like this who are
talking about the abduction thing, they say everything else is nonsense. I started back with the
work of Wilbert Smith who ran the Canadian government UFO program. The Canadian
government investigated this thing from 1950 to 1954 and there’s a Top Secret memo. It’s a
legitimate Top Secret memo. It was declassified by the Canadian government. In that memo,
Wilbert Smith who is running the Canadian government UFO program writes to the deputy
minister of the Department of Transport, giving a report on UFOs. He said… [StealthSkater note:
see doc pdf URL ]

27
Alex Tsakiris: Grant, let me interject here because this is really an important memo for folks who are
still on the skeptical side of the whole UFO thing. What I want you to do is talk about in real
simple terms who Wilbert Smith is -- which you just did -- and how did Wilbert Smith come to
write this memo? Why was he down in D.C.? And why should we believe what’s in the memo?
And along the way, of course, you have to tell us what’s in this memo.

Grant Cameron: Okay, he was called a senior radio engineer. After the program was shut down and he
was actually promoted to the head of communications. He worked at Shirley’s Bay which is
outside of Ottawa, the Canadian capital. Basically it’s the NSA of Canada. He ran Radio Ottawa
which is trying to pick off Russian communications. He was in charge of all the radio frequencies,
AM/FM radio frequencies. So when FM radio came in in the late ‘50s, he would negotiate with
the Americans on radio frequencies along the border. “You get this frequency; we get this
frequency.”

But he also controlled the Military frequencies and the Intelligence frequencies and handing
out radio frequencies to these people. He was given the job to research the Flying Saucer thing.
He was very interested. He said that he was down at a conference in Washington, D.C. and a
couple of famous UFO books had come out. He started to ask questions and he said he basically
got these confirmations. So he writes back to the Canadian government and he’s reporting on what
he learned at the Canadian Embassy in Washington, D.C…

Alex Tsakiris: As part of his job. This is what he’s supposed to be doing. It’s also his passion and his
interest. But this is a real guy in Canadian security in the U.S., in D.C., and asking around “Hey,
what about this UFO stuff?”

Grant Cameron: Yeah. And he’s going through the military attaché which was attached to the Research
and Development Board in the United States. The Canadian military liaison guy was giving him a
lot of this information and the Research and Development Board in the United States was in
charge of the hydrogen bomb, all the weapon research. This was the key sort of research and
development aspect of the American military.

So he’s getting this material and he reports back the basic things that UFO people have always,
for 30 years, have talked about this UFO thing. He was told Flying Saucers exist. The most
highly classified subject in the United States rated 2 points higher than the hydrogen bomb. This
was written in December of 1950, two years before the first hydrogen bomb was detonated. So
this is before the hydrogen bomb and he’s saying this is a higher classification than the hydrogen
bomb. Then he says that there’s a small group headed by Dr. Vannevar Bush who was the
scientific advisor to Roosevelt during WWII…

Alex Tsakiris: The go-to guy, Vannevar Bush. He’s the go-to guy for everything, right, at the highest
level? So atom bomb, nuclear…

Grant Cameron: Everything. All your atomic bomb, your jet engine, proximity fuse, every major
development during WWII -- the scientific aspect was headed by Dr. Vannevar Bush. So Smith is
saying he’s given the job to figure out this Flying Saucer thing. So Smith is going back and saying
“Flying Saucers are real.” He was told by American officials and he doesn’t say like some guy.
He’s saying American officials are telling him this is for real and that if we have anything to
exchange, they’re willing to exchange. So for 30 years in the UFO community, I along with
everybody else quoted these four points. But the very next line in the document, everybody has
left out…

28
Alex Tsakiris: Now hold on. Before you get to that next line, let’s do a little cliffhanger here. Who was
the intended audience for this memo? When does this memo become public? And what other
evidence do we have that this was completely legitimate? What other confirmations do we have
from other individuals that this did in fact happen the way that Smith said it did?

Grant Cameron: Okay, it was written in December 1950 to start with. It wasn’t declassified. Stan
Friedman was actually one of the people who forced it to be pushed out. But it wasn’t fully
declassified until 1978, I believe it was.

Alex Tsakiris: So almost 30 years later.

Grant Cameron: That this thing was declassified. And what happened was that when Smith was dying.
He was dying of cancer of the lower bowel. He knew he was dying. He told his wife to get rid of
the files. So the files were held by his oldest son and they were then moved to a researcher in
Ottawa who knew that this memo existed because Smith had a copy in his personal files. So there
was push from these researchers who knew what was in the files to get the Canadian government
to declassify the documents.

So when they finally declassified the documents in 1978, this Top Secret document became
public. Now the way the government got out of it was they said he didn’t have the right to put
Top-Secret on it. They tried to find different ways to sort of invalidate the document. But it is a
valid document. It is in the Canadian research libraries and nobody denies that it wasn’t written
and it wasn’t Top-Secret. They’re just playing on the edges of whether they should have been
Top-Secret to start with. So this document is there. Smith writes it and he’s writing it to the
Canadian government and…

Alex Tsakiris: And then we have confirmation from a U.S. official who says…

Grant Cameron: What happens is Stanton tracks down an interview that Smith does at the Canadian
Embassy with a scientist, Dr. Robert Starbacher, who in the 1950s was a consultant to the U.S.
military to the Research and Development Board. In 1983 after the document becomes public,
Smith’s personal files become public. And this interview -- this handwritten interview with Dr.
Starbacher which gives part of the material—not all of the material in the Top Secret memo—but
some of it.

Stanton decides to see if this guy is still alive. He finds the guy in Florida. Dr. Robert
Starbacher. And he talks to Robert Starbacher.

“Did you give this interview to Wilbert Smith?”

He said: “Yeah, I recall giving this interview at the Canadian Embassy.”

He says: “What was the background?”

He says: “Well, one of the consultants in Washington at the Navy section. I was called into a series
of meetings at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base where they had a crashed Flying Saucer and they were
briefing a bunch of high-ranking scientists at the Research and Development Board.”

He didn’t have time to go. He was working the Canadian DO Line Project. But he started naming
off these different people to Stanton who had gone. He named off Dr. Bush, of course. He named off
Von Neumann who was the initiator of the computer. Dr. Von Braun. He named off a number of high-
29
ranking scientists. Then he named off one scientist who was still alive. That’s kind of a long story. Dr.
Eric Walker, who’s the former president of Penn State University. We actually go to him and he
confirms a lot of this stuff.

So Starbacher does give confirmation for the fact that he did tell Smith it was the most highly
classified subject in the United States. That Flying Saucers were real. All we know is we didn’t make
them; we don’t know who made them. And so it sets the basis for the fact that Smith has not just
connections with people in the United States but he also has connections with the U.S. government.

In fact, his son confirmed to me as a rumored story that at the end of his life, his father had told him
that yes, he had actually gotten access to the crashed Flying Saucer. He was shown a crashed Flying
Saucer outside of Washington, D.C. and he did see the bodies. So Smith was at this very high level,
classified area where there was actually interaction between the U.S. and the Canadian government.

Alex Tsakiris: And we should add that Wilbert Smith is someone that you have researched. A fellow
Canadian that you have researched extensively. So you’ve spent several years collecting as many
of his notes and documents and interviewing family members and friends. So it’s really been a
major interest area of yours. Is that correct?

Grant Cameron: Yeah, yeah. And I have all his files which are four DVDs full. There was a lot of
material.

Alex Tsakiris: But I want to come back and unravel and get back to the next line in the memo.

Grant Cameron: So in 1950 when Smith writes this memo to the Canadian government describing what
he’s been told by officials of the United States. He talks about the UFO stuff which everybody
quotes. The very next line everybody leaves out. I left it out for years too.

He said: “I was further informed that U.S. authorities (and you’ve got to get that—U.S.
authorities) are investigating along quite a number of lines which might possibly be related to the
Saucers such as mental phenomena. And I gather they are not doing too well since they have
indicated that if Canada is doing anything at all along the lines of geomagnetics, they would
welcome a discussion with suitably accredited Canadians.” [StealthSkater note: Dr. Bruce Cornet
was a professional geologist who experienced quite vivid sightings. These seemed to occur in a
region of New England that had intense electromagnetic activity doc pdf URL . Perhaps similar
to the alleged “ley lines” of Montauk Project fame.]

So he’s basically saying that they’ve got this connection with mental phenomena. And if
there’s anybody inside Canada who’s working on it, if you get cleared to talk on a classified level,
we’re willing to talk to you because we’re trying to figure this thing out. And the key part of this
whole thing is that in 1950 no matter what anybody in the UFO community wants to say, there was
no discussion. None whatsoever in any literature that there was any interaction between the aliens
and human beings.

The first interaction that’s publicly been made known was when the contactees which were
people who were talking to the Blonds appeared in 1952. George Adamski. There was a bunch of
them in 1952 that started to say: “We’re talking to aliens and we’re having meetings with them.”
Smith writes this memo 2 years before. There is no discussion in UFO literature about an
interaction whether it’s talking to aliens or whether it’s telepathy. [StealthSkater note: again
similar to Sgt. Dan Sherman’s “Project Preserve Destiny” off-world intuitive-comms doc pdf
URL . It can be argued that his comms could have been from humans in some Future time. Or
30
 maybe they were from disinfo counter-intel agents at the present who were testing a new form of
radio-less communication].

So the important part of this whole thing is that in 1950, Smith is saying the American
authorities already know that mental phenomena is part of this Flying Saucer phenomenon.
The American government, who will say right up to today ... Obama released a statement just a
couple of months ago saying we have no evidence. We don’t have anything. And here’s Smith
saying in a Top-Secret memo -- which is not discussion of whether this is a legitimate memo -- in
1950 that he’s already saying the American authorities know about the importance of mental
phenomena associated with the Flying Saucers. So they’ve known the mental phenomena aspect
right from Day One.

Alex Tsakiris: So, Grant, that’s fascinating. Now make the connection for us for MK-ULTRA. Tell
people a little bit about what is MK-ULTRA. Particularly because it happens up there in Canada.

Grant Cameron: Okay. The whole MK-ULTRA and all the related programs didn’t become public until
the mid-1970s. It became public in a big scandal in the United States. Richard Helms had been
involved. When it first became public, it had been sort of discovered immediately that the vast
majority of the documents had been destroyed. This was basically the CIA working on mind-
control and on trying to work on this aspect of using the mind as a weapon of war; interrogating
people; finding out what the Russians were doing; and all this sort of stuff. [StealthSkater note:
more on MK-ULTRA is at doc pdf URL ]

When you look back at the thing, there’s this very significant meeting that takes place. Smith
writes this memo in December of 1950. And one of the people that’s mentioned in the Top-Secret
memo is Dr. Oman Salant who was the head of the military research board in Canada. Smith
mentions him, that he’s briefing him as well. He’s writing it to the Department of Transport. But
the Defense Department -- this Oman Salant -- is involved.

Alex Tsakiris: I guess what I’m asking is don’t we have to look at that a little bit differently now that we
understand the Smith memo and the next line that you talked about? Because I understand the
Russian connection. We had Joe McMoneagle who was Psychic Spy #001 at Stanford Research
Institute as part of the Stargate Program. We interviewed him and we understand that there really
was this perceived threat from the USSR.

But I think what you bring to the table here is that there’s this other element going on which is
this UFO. The understanding that the UFO phenomena is related to these mental phenomena.
And I think that that plays into this as well. Maybe I’m taking it too far. Would you agree with
that?

Grant Cameron: Well, I don’t think we really get the UFO connection until later. In the ‘50s, ‘60s, ‘70s,
I don’t think you get these pieces falling out like the MK-ULTRA. That whole scandal about the
fact that the CIA was interested in the mind and the military aspects. It’s not until later when I get
these other pieces that pop in that were always in my head that sort of fit in where it says the UFO
connection is really important.

The one was I mentioned Dr. Robert Starbacher. Hnd he was giving material to Wilbert Smith.
When Stanton interviewed him, he says: “Well, who was there? Was anybody alive? You’re
mentioning all these guys who are dead.” He said: “There’s this one guy from Pennsylvania. He
was real arrogant. He thought he knew everything. He attended all the meetings.”

31
 We tracked this guy down and he turns out to be Dr. Eric Walker who was former President of
Penn State University.

For 15 years he was the Chairman of the Board of the Institute for Defense Analysis which is
the top military think tank for the United States military. He was the co-developer of the homing
torpedo. He was friends with Vannevar Bush. He had this incredible, unbelievable background of
military and connections with Presidents and stuff like this. So when we go to him, we’re
interviewing him as UFO researchers. We’re not thinking about the mind. We couldn’t care less
about that, no connection whatsoever.

We’re talking to him and we’re trying to find out about this supposed UFO group that runs the
whole thing. The Majestic-12. We’re asking him questions about MJ-12. “Did you have contact
with the aliens? How did the thing operate? How did you cover-up the UFO thing?” And
suddenly in the middle of one of these interviews in 1990, he’s interviewed for about 8 years. I’m
running this team of researchers around the world. I’m not talking to them. There are people who
say “I can get Walker to talk.”

“Okay, here’s his phone number.” And what we’d do is we’d take all the interviews that are
done with him and we put them in a book. In 1990 in the middle of one of these interviews, he
suddenly cuts off the conversation talking about hardware, about bodies and all this. And he
suddenly says: “How good is your sixth sense? How much do you know about ESP?” And the
other guy goes “Well, not really.” It’s not of interest to him. And Walker says, “Unless you know
about it and how to use it, you will not be taken in.”

Because the question was about who’s running the group. What’s this MJ-12? How many
people are in the group? How are these people operating? And he says: “Unless you know about
ESP and how to use it, you would not be taken in by this MJ-12, this over-riding group that runs
the UFO program. Only a few know about it.” We saw the interview and I put it in the book. We
published the book in 1990. We’re about to re-publish the book. We put it in this book in 1991.

We never mentioned it in the book. We never brought up this mention of the fact that ESP was
involved because it meant nothing to us. We were into the hardware and the bodies and all this
sort of stuff. But he mentions this in 1990.

Then in 1993 there’s a related story about a conversation that takes place with Ben Rich. Ben
Rich was the guy who ran Skunk Works where the U2, the SR-71, the Stealth fighter, the Stealth
bomber, they were all developed by what was called ‘Skunk Works.’

Ben Rich ran it and he would get a number of questions about was this UFO technology. He’s
giving a lecture in 1993. He’s dying of cancer. He gives a lecture at UCLA to a bunch of
engineers. He’s talking and he says: “We’ve got the technology to take ET home.” He gives his
lecture, he finishes the lecture, he’s walking out. One of the engineers who was interested in
UFOs runs after him.

He says to Ben Rich “How are these things propelled? How are UFOs propelled?” And Ben
Rich turns around and says to him “Let me ask you a question. How does ESP work?” And the
guy says “Well, it means that all points in time and space are connected.” And Ben Rich turns
around and he says: “That’s how they work.”

And so here’s this top guy in U.S. military research who’s saying ESP, that’s how UFOs are
propelled. So you get these connections years later that basically put this together.
32
Alex Tsakiris: Grant, let me layer something else on top of here that I’ve heard you say that changed the
way that I think about this whole topic. I don’t know to what extent I fully agree with you. But
that’s that you look at the UFO phenomena through a national security lens rather than as a
scientific phenomenon. You insist that we look at it from a national security perspective. Tell us
what you mean by that.

Grant Cameron: Well, let me clarify that. I wrote an article. It’s on my website. If you go to my
website, on the right-hand side you’ll see Articles. I wrote an article I used to call “The 64 Reasons
the Government Decided Not to Tell You the Truth.” The #1 reason is because it’s classified.
This is military technology. If we can develop things that can fly around and nobody can capture
them; if we can get this mind technology where we can go and grab the head of the Soviet Union
or Russia and get into his head and give him messages like what’s happening with abductions and
be back in Washington for lunch, that’s the kind of technology we want.

Alex Tsakiris: Let’s slow down and talk about that because we have to look at that for a minute. From a
historical perspective, hey, that’s always been Priority #1 for any nation-state. Not only defense
but offense. Whoever has the best weapon wins. And wins decisively. And their ideology and
their whole culture advances. So this is really Priority #1 for any state. And we don’t have to look
back too far in our history for evidence of that, right? So you can’t really make that point strong
enough that this would be the top priority for any kind of new technology.

Grant Cameron: Yeah, it’s called “Military Lead-Time.” If you have a weapon and you suddenly decide
to use it in a war, how long did it take you to develop it? If it takes you 60 years to develop it; you
suddenly use it in a war, the other side can go to their leader and say “Well, we’re going to fight
this off and how long is it going to take?” “Well, about 60 years.” You know right now from the
Iraq war, you can wipe out everybody else’s tanks in about 2 weeks. If you have a weapon, it’s
over.

But there’s the other aspect of this whole cover-up thing. The 64 Reasons. One is the
Government is covering up for their reasons, military security, and the fact that we’re paranoid and
the Chinese and everybody in the World is trying to get us. We have to have this security and
defense to protect the United States of America. But the other aspect is the aspect that connects
with the mental phenomena. And that is that the aliens are covering up as well.

The aliens could land on the White House lawn anytime they want. They could come onto the
TV and announce themselves. They don’t and there is a cover-up by the aliens. And that’s what I
say is that if you take a look at what’s happening and what I say the UFO community has missed is
that in the UFO history, if you look it is like the aliens are turning the pages of a book.

There’s just one thing after another:

1947 to 1952, they do nothing except fly around and let people see them.

1952, they start to talk to people.

1961, they start abducting people.

1967, the cattle mutilation stuff starts. It does not start before 1967.

33
 1982, the crop circles start. You get the aspect of people starting to remember various parts of
abduction stuff that they didn’t remember in the ‘60s. They’re remembering different
parts now.

It’s almost as if the aliens are just slowly turning the pages of a book and we are going through
the way they want this thing to be unraveled. They could have told us in 1947 what was going on.
But they’re just slowly taking us along a path. That’s what is so important about this mental aspect
thing is that if you take a look at the UFO history and you look at stuff, you see that the things that
are happening now did not happen.

In 1975 it was a completely different world. The things that happened then don’t happen now.
Ground trace, for example. You used to hear stories about aliens landing, ground traces. Little
aliens walking around with little rods outside of their crafts. It does not happen anymore. There
are no reports. There used to be hundreds a year. There’s none. It’s like the aliens are taking us
down a path and this mental phenomena is part of what they’re doing. [StealthSkater note: I still
maintain there is a connection between nuclear detonations and UFO sightings. When nukes were
going off, you have lots of sightings. In the early 1980s when the worldwide moratorium took
place, sightings went down to zilch.]

There are some incredible stories inside the UFO community that show that they are doing this
kind of stuff. For example, let me give you one. The Rendlesham Forest story is one of the top
stories in UFO. Td that’s a story about a craft landing at a U.S. Air Force base in Britain and the
people going out and touching the craft and seeing this stuff. All sorts of reports and stuff like this.
James Penniston -- who is one of the main people who was at the site -- gets near the craft and he
touches the craft. [StealthSkater note: Blatantly (to me at least) suspicious is why the MPs
(including Penniston) were told to leave their weapons behind and to proceed into the forest to
investigate the unknown. Who would do such a thing? It almost sounds like it was a test to see
how a nuclear weapons base would react to an unknown invasion or a mass MK-ULTRA-like
mind manipulation. doc pdf URL ]

He’s been interviewed and he talks about this message that he gets. It’s a message that comes
in 0’s and 1’s and they later put the message together. It’s a 14-page long message of 0’s and 1’s.
And he gets this message and it has this interpretation. I won’t get into the interpretation. But he’s
interviewed about a year and a half ago and he was asked “This 14-page message of zeroes and
ones, you had to put it down, you got it instantly in your head when you touched the craft. Could
you do it again?” And Penniston said “Yes. I could write the message again.”

14 pages of 0’s and 1’s and he can actually re-do that message! Not just an ordinary message
from a mailing. Incredible message that is 32 years later, he can still remember the message.
Every dot, every zero in that message for 14 pages. That’s an incredible thing and that’s the aliens
giving something to us that is not just a message. It’s an incredible message.

Or the story of the most famous abductee in UFO history now is Stan Romanek. A lot of
people will say this guy’s a hoaxer. One of the things that he’s incredibly known for is getting
these very complex formulas, mathematical formulas that he just suddenly gets up in the middle of
the night and starts writing these formulas. Under hypnosis he writes these very complex
formulas. One of the formulas was a formula by one of the top people who was involved in the
mind control and remote-viewing program. Dr. Hal Puthoff who ran the SRI program for 25 years
for the CIA. [StealthSkater note: see doc pdf URL ]

34
 One of his formulas he’s gotten out of the mind aspect -- the remote-viewing. He’s gotten into
the UFO thing, into zero-point energy. One of the formulas that Stan Ramanek writes is one of the
formulas that had only been published one time in the world. And it was a formula by Hal Puthoff
on zero-point energy. And this abductee gets it.

So you get these not just ordinary messages. You’re getting these things as if the aliens are
putting this in here and actually taking us along a path and giving us stuff that we would have not
have gotten on our own. They are leading us so that ... They’re covering it up but they’re
gradually releasing it. Now I’ll say the disclosure, when we finally find out what’s going on with
UFOs, is when the aliens tell us.

Alex Tsakiris: Yeah. And boy, there’s just so much there to pull apart. I just can’t leave that without
touching on one point that I think you make and that’s that to understand the Government
deception and the cover-up. One of the things you bring to the table is to say it doesn’t have to be
masterminded if you just look at it from the national security lens. You can have a lot of people
that can just be set off to do a task that’s purely national security. It can wind up looking very
nefarious from a high level when in fact they’re just hey, we have to make sure that we’re on top
of this kind of thing.

Let me leave that for a minute because there’s a lot to pull apart there. What I really want to
do is circle back around now and talk about some of the things that you’re talking about from these
other glimpses we’re getting of expanded human consciousness and see how they might fit
together. Then I think we can’t even really talk about the Aliens versus Us and this time versus
that time. I think all those things start to get a little bit fuzzy.

The person I bring into this discussion I mentioned earlier is Joe McMoneagle who we had a
chance to interview a few months ago and of course is Psychic Spy #001. One of the anecdotes he
told that I thought was just fascinating is he sits down with Hal Puthoff at Stanford Research
Institute. And as you just said, Hal has been hired by the CIA to figure out this remote secret spy
thing and how we can spy on the Russians using psychics. [StealthSkater note: Joe is a very highly
regarded remote-viewer doc pdf URL ]

He looks over at his file that they unsealed that is totally Secret. No one can get into it. There
is a copy of Raymond Moody’s Life After Life book. The reason why this is relevant is because
Joe McMoneagle has had a very profound Near-Death Experience while he’s an Intelligence
officer for the United States in Germany. In this Near-Death Experience he leaves his body and is
having an Out-of-Body Experience and then goes to Heaven and encounters this being that for any
other way we’d talk about it is God. He makes this connection at this level of consciousness that is
clearly way above our level of consciousness and gets this mental download. [StealthSkater note:
perhaps similar is the near-death experience that Dr. Matti Pitkanen had during a hospital stay. He
classifies it as his Great Personal Experience. It enabled him to extend his TGD-physics to unite
Conscious with General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. He described it as an almost
StarTrek Q-continuum where his consciousness was part of a much greater One. In a sense, he felt
like he was “God” doc pdf URL ]

Again, you’re talking about the Rendlesham Forest case. You look at Near-Death
Experiencers or many other spiritually-transformative experiences that have been reported
throughout time whether they’re Kundalini or Christian experiences. Often there’s this download
of information that just gets put into the brain. Sometimes they can’t even repeat it when they get
back. But there is this higher order of consciousness. So don’t we have to start trying to make that
connection too and try and see how the whole thing fits together?
35
Grant Cameron: Yes. But it’s still a big package of unknowns. I mean you sort of get the connection
that you can get these downloads. That consciousness is an extremely integral part that may be the
whole thing. That consciousness is like the Eastern philosophies.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. Maybe fundamental.

Grant Cameron: That consciousness is the basis of the whole thing. In the Western world ... And I
have some problems with Science. I always say that Science is not there to solve a problem for us
because Science is basically ... If you take a look, John Alexander who’s a high-level military guy
who’s gotten into the mind and into UFOs and stuff, he always mentions the fact that in the
National Academy of Sciences, the higher the level you get of science, the more they disbelieve
any sort of phenomenology whether it be UFOs or mental phenomena or remote-viewing or stuff
like that.

At the National Academy of Sciences level, only 4% of the people believe in phenomenology.
They have nothing to do with it. So basically you have like Atheists. Phenomenology Atheists.
The UFO community always wants scientists to run the program. I say: “No. Keep them out of it
because they’re tainted by sort of a Christian religion where everything is material. That you have
a God with a beard and we’re going to go to Heaven with streets paved of gold. I think you have
to move away from that into sort of an Eastern philosophy thing.”

But as I say, I’m one. You might have Colin Anders. You have Steven Greer. You have
maybe a dozen people in the UFO community who believe strongly that that consciousness is a
basic core of this phenomenon. The rest of them would say this is absolutely nonsense. This is
crazy. This is nuts-and-bolts. Don’t talk to me about this consciousness stuff. It’s nuts. It’s not
well-received in the UFO community.

It’s a very new aspect. And I’m saying to the UFO community now that we’d better start
taking a look seriously at this as nutty as it might have appeared in the 1950s. This is what’s going
to give us the answer to what is going on here. If you start looking at the nature of Consciousness,
the nature of the Universe. Is it really a material universe? How does it work? This entanglement
property, all these advanced physics ideas. But we are very very far away. I don’t think we really
understand very much of it.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. Of course we don’t. But, Grant, it’s interesting what you say because when you
take even a small step back from the UFO phenomena as we’ve talked about here, it becomes
obvious that consciousness and this extended human consciousness or alien consciousness is
central to it. It’s funny that there’s this controversy within your community about a phenomena
that jumps right out at you from all the different angles that we’ve talked about.

I’ll tell you from my perspective -- and we’ve been at the extended human consciousness work
of others through this show for a number of years -- the next step is the spiritual aspect. The
parapsychologists, let’s say, the parapsychology and the psi community that we’ve talked to a lot
here, if I could roll in also the Near-Death Experience science community or the Out-of-Body
Experience science community. All those have a similar blind spot in that they want to look at
consciousness and extended human consciousness. But they always have this kind of soft spot for
scientific materialism.

They wind up saying some of the same things that you have in that we haven’t understood it or
don’t understand it completely and all the rest of that. I really have been pushing things in another
36
 direction and that’s that all the reports of this extended consciousness we talk about very quickly
get to this spiritual connection. I’m not talking about it from my personal spirituality. I’m just
talking about it as a core part of the phenomena; a core part of the experience.

Joe McMoneagle -- who is deep, deep in this stuff -- he doesn’t talk about his near-death
experience as being just a mental experience. He talks about it being a spiritual union with a
consciousness that is of a higher order and from his perception is of a much, much, much higher
order. That may be offensive or upset people who are strong Atheists and as you point out which
is really more of an anti-Christian thing. But I’m not talking about anyone’s personal spiritual
beliefs or personal religious beliefs.

I’m just saying the spiritual aspect is clearly a core part of this phenomena. I just wonder if
anyone in the UFO research community has gotten there. I think John Mack was kind of headed
there. But John Mack, of course, was a Harvard psychologist who got interested in the abduction
phenomena and did a lot of research in talking to abductees and came to the conclusion that it was
psycho-spiritual. So where has that whole line of research gone within the UFO community?

Grant Cameron: Boy, absolutely there’s a division there. But what I always point out is it comes down
to the male and female thing. I know you’ve been to UFO conferences. But if you go to UFO
conferences, you’ll see a real separation between men and women. Men are into the hardware;
they’re into the technology. How does this thing fly? Where’s it from? And if you take a look at
women, they are into the spiritual aspects of the thing.

We’ve got to take a look at what the women are doing and what the men are doing and that it is
a unity of the two. But right now it’s still a separation. You have the men who are into the
hardware and you have the women who are into the spiritual, the experiences of people. They will
go a lot farther in looking at the abduction experience as being almost a spiritual experience.

But if you talk to men, you’ll talk to Robert Collins and his abduction experiences. They’re
evil. They’re here; we have to try to fight them off. So you have the men who are basically saying
it’s an evil type thing, a national security thing. We’ve got to fight it. And the women are at a
higher level. There is a real division inside the UFO community.

The reality, I think, is going to fall where you describe it that it’s going to be more of a
spiritual experience. We’re sort of influenced by the Government that everybody’s an enemy and
it all comes down to Us versus Them. So we see all the aliens. We see all the latest UFO movies
where it’s always the great Americans bringing freedom and democracy to the world fighting off
these evil who are trying to take over the world. Whereas that’s not what I think it is.

If the aliens wanted to take over and destroy us they could have done it 100 years ago. Why
would they wait? It’s not. It’s more of a spiritual development of the Earth at their pace as they
unfold this thing for us. The women have already caught on to how this works.

Alex Tsakiris: One last area I’d like to get into and it’s been great talking. I appreciate all the time
you’ve spent on this. You obviously have not only a passion for this. But you’ve matched it with
a deep, deep knowledge. I really respect and admire the way that you’ve gone about researching
this and filling this unexplainable void that we have out there in terms of why an independent
researcher like you has to be filing hundreds of FOA requests and gathering and publishing this
data while we have this huge apparatus in the media that is just completely blind to it. Let me get
off of that pedestal.

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 I want to talk about the psychedelic connection because another guest we’ve had on this show
is Dr. Rick Strassman who was at the University of New Mexico. As far as I know, he’s the only
researcher who was given permission to study the effects of DMT on subjects. So he gathered up a
bunch of students there at New Mexico and gave them rather high doses of DMT. They saw not
only aliens but fairies and other independent entities that seemed to operate in this other
realm.

And, of course, this work with psychedelics is mirrored by many other researchers. Anyone
can go and Google “Terence McKenna” and you can get all sorts of interesting ideas about the
connection here. What are your thoughts on what the psychedelic community and the psychedelic
research and what we’ve found out? What’s your thoughts on how that might connect to all this?

Grant Cameron: I don’t really know. I have really not thought about it except as you’re describing it.
It’s sort of like this small percentage of reality that we really understand. When you get into these
different states of mind that everything sort of changes. I really don’t have much of an opinion
except that it just shows how limited our knowledge of reality is. We really are just starting out.
You’re probably going to need another 30 years of experiments and somebody getting an insight
on a new experiment that will nail down what’s actually going on there.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. What I think a lot of folks don’t realize is that the materialism in science mirrors
the materialism in our culture. So our materialistic society and how we’re materialists and how
George Bush says “Don’t worry about the Iraq war, just go shopping,” the connection is real. It’s
not some abstract connection; it’s real. It’s only in a world that you construct where it’s just about
matter. It’s about goods; it’s about survival that you’re able to rationally do these things. To
gather things and then go bomb other people.

If you have this expanded view that says we’re all somehow connected and we don’t have to
understand what that means but we’re all connected, our idea of time is not what we think it is as
soon as those things break down you can’t run a nation-state. You certainly can’t go bomb other
people and do all the other crazy stuff. You can’t deny basic water and health and the things that
we do to all these people so we can. You just can’t run the game.

And I’m not saying that’s necessarily good or bad because hell, I have too many advantages to
say that. I banged my head against that when I first got into this. It was like Gosh, darn it! why
aren’t these scientists looking into this? If only they knew! It’s like Hey! the whole process, the
whole system is orchestrated so that anyone who has that awareness is kicked out from the
beginning. You can’t have those yahoos running it and saying the Emperor has no clothes.

You’re coming at it from a whole different perspective and saying, “Hey, the UFOs are
running the show.” I come at it from another perspective and say, “Hey, as a nonreligious person,
as a non-Christian, God is in control. God is clearly in control.” When these near-death
experiencers die, they tell you they see God. You just can’t get past that.

And it’s funny because I’ve talked to a bunch of near-death experience researchers. I just had
a great interview with a guy who I think is one of the real champions of that -- Melvin Morrison.
We had this discussion and he came to the same thing. He said: “You’re right. I have to play
around with that concept because imagine this.” He’s an outsider. He’s a near-death experience
researcher. He’s a physician, pediatrician. Teaches at a hospital. But he’s still an outsider, right?
He’s ostracized because he researches NDE stuff. [StealthSkater note: Dr. Matti Pitkanen was
“blackballed” by his Finnish physics colleagues when he “dared” to offer a geometric-based theory
of Consciousness doc pdf URL .]
38
 But even within the NDE community, he’s an outsider if he goes and says “Well, yeah, they do
talk about God and we have to figure out what that would mean.” That higher-higher-higher-
higher-higher-higher consciousness that we would then call God. We have to factor that into the
equation. We can’t just waffle it and sa, “Well, yeah, maybe we’re all connected in some way.”
You know, that’s not what the best evidence is telling us. The best evidence is telling us that
there’s something pretty close to what we’ve always been told is God.

And with all these different religions and wisdom traditions and Native Americans and
Aborigines have always pointed to and said, “There’s like a real, real high guy up there and that’s
God and that’s more than all this other stuff.” So that’s where I’m coming at it from. That’s just a
hard thing to get over, given the way we’ve orchestrated the whole deal that we have to work
inside of our materialistic world.

Grant Cameron: Yeah. You’ve just got to transfer that sort of God thing to find a way to make a buck
out of it and then people would accept it. Or take the threat out. I’ve mentioned numerous times
in the UFO community if you take a look at the interaction between abductees and the aliens, it
is actually direct ESP. Direct mind-to-mind interaction. The ESP experiments that have been run
by humans have all this noise-to-signal ratio that’s bad at the best of times. Here it’s like there’s
absolute no noise whatsoever. There are just interactions. [StealthSkater note: in ELINT Sgt.
Dan’s Sherman’s “Project Preserve Destiny” intuitive communication classes, he sometimes
noticed a strange white van loitering around his hotel. A sign on the side read something about
“noise cancellation” doc pdf URL ]

So if you look at that, that’s a major threat to, say, governments. If you can read somebody’s
mind, what do you if you’re a politician now running for the 2012 election? You stand up to make
a speech and everybody knows exactly what you’re thinking? There is no scam anymore. That, to
me, to an establishment is something like let’s keep this out of here. This is not something we
want.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. But if I can make one more point and drill into this, I’d be interested to get your
opinion on this. And that’s that I just can’t stress this enough so I’m going to stress it one more
time. I’m not coming at this from a religious perspective. I don’t have any agenda to push in
terms of any religion or even any kind of spirituality. I just come at it from looking at the facts.
And the facts are the abductees don’t talk about the aliens as being God. They see this level of
consciousness that is greater than them. But they don’t see it as God.

And God here is just a placeholder. People are going to freak out. They do all the time
whenever you say God. But a placeholder for a very, very high consciousness. And the people
who have the Kundalini experience, who have the spontaneous prayer experience, who have the
near-death experience in particular, they do talk about “God.”

I don’t see too many people really making that differentiation. They just go in and say, “Oh,
yeah. Well, the abductees had this ESP experience or this out-of-body experience so it’s like the
aliens are God.” Well, you know what? I don’t know if that’s true or not. But the data that we do
have suggests that it’s something very different and that people know when they’re encountering
something like God. They can differentiate when they’re encountering something like an alien
consciousness.

Grant Cameron: It’s at a lower level. It’s like a lower frequency or whatever. It’s the same sort of
experience. Like consciousness would explain everything from God all the way down to the most
39
 basic material things. It’s all still consciousness. It’s sort of different vibrations at different level.
And so your ESP that’s happening at the alien level is at a higher level than what we have talking
to each other on the Earth. I started out and that was my experience.

Before UFOs I was at the university and my major was religion. I did the near-death
experience thing. I talked to the different chaplains and asked all the weird questions of the
various chaplains like “Were there any miracles? Did anybody ever predict their death? Did they
tell you exactly when they were going to die?” I had all these weird things that surrounded Death.
There definitely was a religious aspect to the thing that’s different than the UFO interaction
between aliens.

I went to chaplains rather than ministers because with chaplains, there’s no garbage there. It’s
basically they’re dealing with dying people all the time. They’re not there trying to recruit you to
the Roman Catholic religion or the Lutheran religion or whatever. It’s basically they’re dealing
with dying people and that’s who I wanted to talk to. It’s like when you come to Death, there’s no
more crap. Everybody’s telling the truth. Everybody’s basically telling you the way it is.

And Atheists. I had numerous ones where “Did you ever have an Atheist? Did they ever come
back with a near-death experience?” It still came down to this higher God-thing which, as you say,
it’s different than the alien thing. But we’re just looking at different levels of this consciousness
thing, that it’s all consciousness.

But in the UFO community, people do not understand that. They’re still at this basic level of
nuts-and-bolts. Us versus Them. Military aspects. There is a difference. But it’s still
consciousness. It’s whatever level you’re at that is explaining the same thing. Once you
understand consciousness, you can put them into different levels and explain what’s going on. But
we’re so much in the material world that consciousness really hasn’t been researched very much
by anybody. That’s the basic problem we have.

Alex Tsakiris: Right. Hey Grant, tell us what’s going on. What’s coming up for you in terms of books,
appearances. Anything like that.

Grant Cameron: I’m re-doing this book that we did in 1990 that basically tells the story about Wilbert
Smith and going to the States and Dr. Eric Walker. And we go into Area-51, the updated story of
Area-51 that gives the reality. That’s being republished. Richard Dolan is going to republish that
within the next 3-to-4 months.

Basically I’m giving the consciousness lecture. I think this is, as I said, one of three top
periods in my life. The one was when I had the UFO sighting. One when I saw Dr. Michael
Newton speak about Life Between Lives. And the third was when I had this consciousness thing
last year at Phoenix. I’m giving this consciousness lecture first in England in the beginning of
August. Then in Philadelphia. At the end of September, I’m giving the consciousness lecture at
the UFO Conference next February in Phoenix, Arizona. Then I’ll be giving it in Orlando in May.

So it’ll be the same lecture and as it will be a more developed lecture as I go along. But this is
the lecture I’m giving now. I’m saying it’s the most important thing the UFO community now has
to learn. This is a critical thing. If you want to understand what’s going on and understand the
fact that the Government has always known this, you’d better start looking at this aspect of
consciousness because we have entirely missed the boat. We are floundering around still looking
at sightings and tracking sightings and stuff.

40
 I think we have missed one of the key aspects of the whole phenomenon which gives us a lot of
the answers as to what’s going on with UFOs. And that is the consciousness thing. It’s a
consciousness lecture and Colin Andrews is going to follow me in London. He’s giving the
consciousness lecture. He knows mine. We’re exchanging information on consciousness. He’s
going to give the one on the crop circles again about consciousness and crop circles.

I think you’ll see it slowly move into the UFO community. It will be fought by a lot of people.
But this is, as I said, this is something the UFO community has missed and I’m going to start
talking about it. To me it was a revelation. I was missing it as well.

Alex Tsakiris: Great. So for more information, www.presidentialufo.com .

Grant Cameron: I appreciate your time and your interest. It’s strange to see somebody else outside of
the UFO community take this interest and I’m glad you did. I hope that our 2 communities have
more interactions because I think we have something to offer each other that will help each of us
understand what the other side is doing and help us understand the answers we need in our field.

Alex Tsakiris: I couldn’t agree with you more. It’s this never-ending process of opening yourself up to
more and more of what’s out there. It’s always a little uncomfortable. I’m sure some listeners to
this show are a little uncomfortable by tip-toeing into the UFO field. But gosh darn it! You just
have to follow the stuff wherever it leads. That’s really our charter, isn’t it? We just have to go
where it takes us.

Grant Cameron: You got it.

Alex Tsakiris: Well, thanks so much for joining us today. I just am delighted with the way this came out
and I hope people enjoy it.

Grant Cameron: Beautiful. Thanks, Alex.

[StealthSkater note: I’m still unclear as to what is implied by a UFO-Consciousness link. Does that
mean that UFO sightings were more “in the mind” than in real life? If so, how does that explain
all the alleged radar (i.e., nuts&bolts) tracks from land-based sites as well as airborne jet fighters?
Hmmm.... You hear of jet fighter/interceptor aircraft tracking UFOs on their radar equipment. But
did an AWACS-type aircraft that has been “hardened” against ECM spoofing ever track one?

But I did come across a “nuts&bolts” UFO-Consciousness link by someone named David
Adair who claimed that he was given access to a retrieved Alien craft. The ship’s hull was
described as “psychoreactive” meaning that it would only open/shut/etc. to thought waves from
certain individuals. doc pdf URL URL-doc URL-pdf . It reminded me of the British movie “Five
Million Years to Earth” in which consciousnesses of Martians who were ancestors of Earth
humans were embedded within the discovered craft.]

Reader Comments
1. Forests10 on August 2, 2012 at 4:37 pm
UFOs are usually rejected by parapsychologists very few study them. The thing is that it’s been
over 120 years-or-more and ufologists still have no physical evidence that “UFOs”, “aliens”, and
“spaceships” actually exist.
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 In a response to the skeptics, die-hard advocates of these things claim silly conspiracy theories
that the Government or secret organizations suppress and hide all the physical evidence for these
aliens. They just need to accept the truth that if these things exist they are not physical. If they are
not physical then they must be dimensional or all in the mind of someone or the subject themselves.

There is a third alternative which is rejected by both most of the ufologists and the skeptics
which says that UFOs and alien beings are actually non-physical and either (1) live in different
dimensions on Earth or (2) these beings actually are from the subjects mind themselves and may take
on some kind of “objective” existence somehow. It is debatable if these beings or “UFOs” can take
on a temporary physical existence but then disappear somehow.

Interestingly, people who claim to do astral projection, OBE, lucid dreams ( doc pdf URL ), or
altered states of consciousness or even in states of Hypnagogia or Sleep paralysis have experienced
aliens, ufos, beings, gnomes, monsters spaceships. So all of this stuff clearly is related to the mind.
But as writers like Anthony Peake say, perhaps there are dimensions in the mind and perhaps these
things can take on an objective existence.

We all known that hallucations can appear very “real” to the subject. At the end of the day do
we even know what is real and unreal? Sometimes there appears to be no barrier. We live in a
strange universe and I am perfectly happy with accepting that dimensional beings exist in other
dimensions or universes or even in our own minds. Who knows?

The interesting thing as documented by people like John Keel or Vallee etc. is that people have
experienced mass hallucinations. How is such a thing possible? It shows that some kind of
telepathy is a reality. I am not certainly not an idealist who believes the Universe is a cosmic mind.
I accept the universe is physical. Perhaps panpsychism is true and all matter has a mental element.
But the idea the Universe is a mind does not add up to me.

Michael Talbot (author of The Holographic Universe) would disagree with me. And yet most
scientists would agree with me. There’s no reason that Science has to come in conflict with the
paranormal. We can accept a material Universe. But that’s no reason why paranormal or
dimensions cannot exist within or beyond it.

Also as authors such as John D. Ralphs have shown in his book exploring the fourth dimension,
perhaps a fourth dimension does exist not as Time but as a physical location. This would explain
Life-after-Death and “UFOs” and reports of these beings exist. And this is all possible without
contradicting anything in Science. [StealthSkater note: interestingly, Dr. Matti Pitkanen’s TGD-
physics maintains that Consciousness exists after biological death. It is a consequence of geometry
and not any religion doc pdf URL ]

[StealthSkater summary: What started out as a possible link between UFOs and Teleportation has
splintered into many off-shooting threads.

There has always been a link between UFO sightings and nuclear “events” (not necessarily
detonations). I recall a video clip showing white UFO blips high above an East German nuclear facility
doc pdf URL . It was in daylight and witnessed by hundreds of people attending an outdoor music
concert. It almost seemed like the whole thing was orchestrated on purpose by the “powers-that-be” for

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whatever agenda. Maybe these UFO “anomalies” are interactions between nuclear fission and
something in the atmosphere? Pitkanen and others have proposed “plasmoids” doc pdf URL . Or can
it be something more esoteric like scalar longitudinal waves? doc pdf URL

And this is not taking into account man-made “ufos” such as the black triangle “Black Manta” doc
pdf URL or the “Pumpkinseed” doc pdf URL-doc URL-pdf which have been repeatedly sighted.

If UFOs are real in the physical sense, are they from other planets? Or are they ourselves from some
Future time since the laws of physics permit forward and backward arrows-of-Time (e.g., “Project
Looking Glass doc pdf URL ) ? Or can they be both (i.e., Us and Aliens)? Meaning that all of these
theories might have some truth in them. ]

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