razgovarali u zagrebu u lipnju 2006.

i lipnju
2007. / interviewed in zagreb in june
2006 and june 2007 by MAROJE
MRDULJAŠ, FEĐA VUKIĆ

Matko Meštrović jedan je od najistaknutijih kulturnih radnika u Hrvatskoj s dugotrajnim stažem u raznim područjima,
od likovne teorije i kritike do analize društvenih kretanja. Razmjerno je dobro poznat Meštrovićev doprinos u iniciranju
i aktivnom sudjelovanju u Novim tendencijama, kao što su neosporni i njegovi veliki napori da se dizajn u Hrvatskoj
konstituira kao kritička djelatnost koja u obzir uzima svu širinu problematike formiranja ljudske okoline. No, Meštrović
je intelektualac velike energije kojega posebno karakterizira sposobnost interdisciplinarnog promišljanja pa se
njegov rad nikako ne zaustavlja na likovnosti, nego se neizbježno usmjerava prema razumijevanju temeljnih problema
suvremenog društva. Usprkos globalnoj društvenoj situaciji u kojoj se pojam humanizma briše iz vrijednosnih sustava,
Meštrović i dalje duboko vjeruje u mogućnost društvenog progresa, što ga čini dragocjenim kritičkim misliocem i
poticajnim sugovornikom.
Matko Meštrović is one of the most prominent cultural figures in Croatia, with a long career in areas ranging from the theory
and criticism of visual arts to the analysis of social developments. He is well known for his contribution to the founding
and activities of the New Tendencies, and certainly for his great effort to organize design in Croatia as a critical activity
that considers the formation of the human environment in all its aspects. But Meštrović is an intellectual with great energy
and the particular ability of interdisciplinary thinking. His work does not stop at the visual arts, but unavoidably focuses on
the understanding of the fundamental problems of contemporary society. Despite the global social situation in which the
idea of humanism has been banished from value systems, Meštrović still deeply believes that social progress is possible,
which makes him a precious critical thinker and a motivating speaker.

matko meštrović
UMJETNOST NE MOŽE BITI
INDIFERENTNA
ART CANNOT BE
INDIFFERENT

oris oris

Iz naše perspektive, onako kako doživljavamo temeljna
opredjeljenja i točke uporišta vašeg sagledavanja su­
vremenog svijeta, usudili bi se reći da su danas teorijski
i kritički možda aktualniji nego ikada prije. Imali ste
prilike 2006. biti u Londonu na izložbi Modernizam
– dizajniranje novog svijeta 1914.-1939. Čini nam se
da bi nas Vaš komentar te izložbe mogao dobro uvesti
u ocrtavanje konteksta u kojem se nalazimo danas.
Otuda onda možemo povući neke sonde u prošlost.
From what we know about the basic positions and
stances of your view of the contemporary world,
they could be theoretically and critically more rele­
vant today than ever before. You saw the exhibition
“Modernism: Designing a New World 1914-1939”
in London in 2006. We believe that your comment
on the exhibition could sketch the context in which
we find ourselves. Then we could probe the past.
fotografija / photo
by Damil Kalogjera

128 46
 meštrović
Izložba je prije svega za širu
j av n o s t n e o b i č n o b o g a t i
konden­ziran prikaz, predstavl­
jena je iznimno dobro odabrana
gra­đa sakupljena iz petnaestak
zema­l ja. Tematska razrada i
interpretacija u svakom je smi­
slu autorska, ali na razini zadat­
ka. Ono što je meni zapelo za
oko, naro­čito ako gledate po­
pratne teks­tove, nova je prosud­
ba kulturnih i civilizacijskih
nastojanja i po­s tignuća u
razdoblju od 1914. do 1939.
godine. I ta prosudba nije posve
interesno neopredije­ljena. Ona
u prvome redu uva­ža­va veliko
potencijalno utopijsko značenje
toga zbivanja u projektiranju i
modernom oblikovanju. I tu
utopiju čak idejno razvrstava
diferencirajući pri tome i ne­ke
političke orijentacije. Jasno se
vidi da je i fašizam bio jedna
utopija, ništa manje nego novi
svijet Bauhausovih nastavljača
u Americi. Ipak, to nije povijes­
no-kritička analiza nego u pr­
vom redu jedna velika atrakcija,
priređena u ustanovi koja je
p o ­j a m k o n z e r v a t i v n o g a
svjetona­zora. Po mome razumi­
jevanju, londonski Victoria &
Albert Mu­se­um takva je usta­
nova i u mu­zeološkome pogledu
i po golemim zbirkama umjet­
ničkog blaga, iz svih povijesnih
razdoblja i krajeva svijeta, tre­
tiranog na posve staromodan
način.
U tome ambijentu, dakle, odjed­
nom susrećete ovakvu koncen­
traciju najlucidnijih viđenja o
životu i radu čovjeka u moder­
nom društvu, projiciranih u
obli­kovnu praksu. To izgleda
pomalo začuđujuće i zbog da­
našnjih krajnje ishitrenih obli­
kovnih postupaka što ih potiče
vladajuća neoliberalna doktri­
na. Spram njih neka asketska
rješenja, na primjer kuhinje iz
20-ih ili 30-ih godina, koja prin­
cip racionalnosti dovode do
130
meštrović
The exhibition is primarily a very
good and succinct presentation
for the wider public; it shows
excellently chosen material
from around 15 countries. The
development of the themes
and interpretations is authorial
in every sense, but it is on that
level. What caught my eye, espe­
cially if you read the explanatory
texts, is the new valuation of
cultural and civilizing efforts
and achievements in the period
1914-1939. And it is not com­
pletely disinterested. It primarily
acknowledges the great poten­
tial utopian value of the phe­
nomenon in design and modern
construction. It even classifies
utopia, differentiating between
certain political orientations. It
is clear that fascism was a uto­
pia no less than the new world
of the followers of Bauhaus in
America. Still, it is not a histor­
ical/critical analysis, but a big
attraction more than anything,
prepared in an establishment
that embodies the conservative
world view. As I see it, the Victo­
ria & Albert Museum in London
is such an establishment both
as a museum and as a huge
collection of artistic treasures
from all historical periods all
over the world, treated in a very
old-fashioned way.
And such a setting suddenly
welcomes a gathering of the
most lucid visions of the life and
work of man in modern society,
embodied in the design prac­
tice. This looks a bit surprising
because of the very superficial
design procedures that are pro­
moted by the dominant neo-lib­
eral doctrine. In comparison,
some ascetic solutions, such as
the kitchens from the 1920s or
1930s, pushing the rationality
principle to its extreme, become
a kind of a pedagogic example
of thorough and systematic
thought. It is edifying to see how
kra­ja, postaju u stanovitom smi­slu pedagoški uzor
studioznog i sustavnog promišljanja. Poučno je vidje­
ti što je sve na tom tragu bilo razvijeno do visokog
civiliza­cijskog standarda u spomenutom razdoblju, a
danas je u potrošačkoj rastrošnosti posve obez­vri­
jeđeno. No, možda je baš zbog toga pojava ove izložbe
simp­tomatična. Koliko mi je poznato, ona nije najavl­
jivana na velika zvona, ali je očito da je autorski tim
imao otvorena sva osjetila za nasušnu potrebu svije­ta
danas: potrebu za utopijom. Bez obzira kako i gdje tu
potrebu možemo identificirati, ona zacijelo još nije
dovoljno određena i artikulirana. Ali zasićenje pseu­
dovrijednostima traži dublju crtu sabiranja i epohalnu
ocjenu: što je nestalo, a treba da bude, čega je previ­
še, a ne treba da bude, ni toliko, ni tako.
oris
Rekli bismo da ste vrlo dobro naznačili podtekst ove lon­
donske izložbe o modernizmu kao potrebi za utopijom.
S obzirom na to da ste Vi toj potrebi u svojoj aktivnosti
i sami dali stanoviti doprinos, htjeli bismo Vas pitati
o vremenu vašeg formiranja, pogotovo studiranja na
fakultetu. Što je Vas formiralo, što je utjecalo na Vas?
meštrović
To mi je vrlo teško reći. Mislim da je postojala stanovita
vokacija koju je negdje u ranu jesen ili pred ljeto 1952.
godine, u razgovoru za prijemni ispit, prepoznao tadaš­
nji asistent na studiju povijesti umjetnosti, Radoslav
Putar. Dao mi je do znanja da je ugodno iznenađen.
Kasnije smo postali drugovi po novinarskoj profesiji.
On je izgubio mjesto asistenta na fakultetu i nastavio
raditi kao suradnik Narodnog lista, likovni kritičar. Ja
sam dobio 1956. godine novinarsko mjesto na Radio
stanici Zagreb, u kulturno-umjetničkoj redakciji,
također kao likovni kritičar. Na tim zadacima smo se
često susretali, u Beogradu ili negdje drugdje. Dakle,
mogu reći da je u mome stručnome formiranju nepo­
sredan uzor bio Radoslav Putar. Cijenio sam njegovu
metodičnost, možda sam i doslovce slijedio njegov
način analitičkog prikazivanja u prvim svojim pokuša­
jima, što je normalno. Međutim, na njegovu moralnu
stranu, koja je iznimno čvrsta i čista, gledao sam kao
na nešto što uvijek može biti oslonac za moje vlastite
dileme ili nesporazume.
U idejno-teorijskom pogledu to ne bih mogao reći.
Postojao je i spontani razvoj. U meni je bila vrlo jaka
misaona veza između kršćanstva i komunizma. U dje­
tinjstvu sam stjecajem okolnosti bio istinski vjernik.
Alvar Aalto, Ekspe-
rimentalni reljef / Doživljavao sam u nekim kriznim momentima svoga
Experimental relief,
1933. života, u ratu i bolesti, silnu potrebu za duhovnošću.
Giso 404 svjetiljka
za klavir / piano Još je jedan važan motiv u mojoj svijesti povezan s
lamp, 1928., J.
J. P. Oud (1890., time, osjećaj za pravičnost i pravednost. Međutim,
Purmerend –
1963., Wassenaar, ideološki nisam bio opredijeljen, intuitivno sam bio za
Nizozemska /The
Netherlands) nešto drugo, nešto posve novo. Moji roditelji su iz nižih
much in that vein was developed to a high civiliz­
ing standard in that period, only to be completely
trodden down by today’s consumerism. But maybe
this is precisely what gives another meaning to
this exhibition. As far as I know, it was not hyped
in advance, but the team of authors obviously felt
the dire need of our world: the need for a utopia.
However and wherever we notice that need, it still
seems not to be defined and articulated enough.
But the saturation with pseudo-values requires a
deeper unifying principle and an epochal valuation:
what disappeared although needed and what
flourishes although unneeded in such quality or
quantity.
oris
You aptly described the subtext of the London
modernism exhibition as the need for a utopia.
Since your activities contributed in a way to that
need, let us ask you something: what about your
formative years, especially as a student? What
formed you, what influenced you?
meštrović
I find it very hard to say. I think my vocation was rec­
ognized during the interview for the entrance exam,
in the early autumn or spring of 1952, by Radoslav
Putar, who was an assistant at the department of
art history. He told me he was pleasantly surprised.
Later we became fellow journalists. He lost his job
as an assistant and worked for the paper Narodni
list as an art critic. In 1956, I became a journalist
at Radio Zagreb, in the section for culture and art,
also as an art critic. We often met on assignments,
in Belgrade or elsewhere. I can say that Radoslav
Putar was a direct example for my professional
formation. I admired his methodical work, maybe
I even literally followed his method of analytical
presentation in my first attempts, which is nor­
mal. And I saw his very strong and pure morals as
something to rely on during my own dilemmas or
misunderstandings.
It did not apply to my ideas or theory, however.
There was also a spontaneous development. I felt
a strong spiritual link between Christianity and
communism. In my childhood, I happened to be a
true believer. In the moments of crisis in my life, in
war or disease, I felt a great need for spirituality.
This is related to another important aspect of my
mind: the sense of justice. But I did not choose a
specific ideology, I intuitively sought something
else, something new. My parents came from the
lower social classes, so I understandably sided with
the “socialist revolution”, as it was called.
 socijalnih slojeva i razumljivo je da sam se identifici­
rao s onim što se nazivalo socijalistička revolucija.
oris
Vi ste ipak proveli drugu polovicu pedesetih godina pa
onda i prvu polovicu šezdesetih, što je obilato doku­
mentirano u knjizi Od pojedinačnog općem, kao vrlo
aktivni kritičar. Kako ste tada djelujući u javnom mediju
gledali na ulogu kulture?
meštrović
Moram u tome smislu istaknuti važnost otvorenih
granica. Prvi put sam bio u inozemstvu za Božić 1953.
godine, bila je to kolektivna studentska ekskurzija
koju je vodila Vera Pintarić u Beč. Drugi put sam išao
samostalno. Žarko Domljan i ja naprtili smo ruksak
oris i predložio na samom početku
You spent the late fifties and the early sixties as promjenu redoslijeda izlaganja.
a very active critic, which is amply documented Na moje iznenađenje predložio
in the book From the Particular to the General. je da ja prvi iznesem ono što
Working in a public medium, how did you see the sam sročio za tu prigodu. Bez
role of culture? kompleksa, pročitao sam na
francuskom svoj prilog, krenuo
meštrović prema svome mjestu i čuo
Arganov komentar. Rekao je:
Here I must point out the importance of open borders.
My first trip abroad was for Christmas 1953. It was “Evo, imali ste prilike čuti što je
a student group excursion to Vienna, led by Vera pravi marksistički pristup našoj
Pintarić. I went on my second trip by myself. Žarko temi.” Mene je ta kvalifikacija
Domljan and I filled our backpacks with dry food and začudila, ali mislim da sam se
went to Venice and Florence. Then our ways parted tek tada počeo stvarno pitati
since I continued to Siena. I loved travelling and used imam li ikakve veze s Marxom
every opportunity to go to an important event, from koji je tada u nas doživljavan
the first time I really asked my­
self if I had anything to do with
Marxism, which was seen as the
official ideology here. I was not
wondering if Argan was right. I
was asking myself what Marx
was all about.
oris
Almost from the very start,
your critical work included the
idea of progress and social
contribution as a part of the
understanding of art.
meštrović

suhom hranom i krenuli u Veneciju, onda iz Venecije
u Firenzu. Kod Firenze smo se razdvojili, ja sam išao
dalje za Sienu. Zavolio sam putovanja i koristio sam
svaku prigodu da pođem na poneki važan skup, od
Venecijanskog bijenala do Trijenala u Milanu. Posje­
tio sam i Documentu u Kasselu još 1959. godine. Bez
pomoći redakcije u kojoj sam imao stalno zaposlenje,
to ne bi bilo moguće.
Naročito je Trijenale na mene mnogo utjecao, otvorio
mi je vidike. Tamo sam mogao vidjeti brojne tematske
izložbe urbanizma i arhitekture, talijanske, europske,
svjetske, i krupne ličnosti u izvanrednim prezenta­
cijama. Tamo sam upoznao i HfG, ulmsku visoku
školu za oblikovanje, bila je cjelovito prikazana na
XII. Trijenalu 1960. godine. Shvatio sam koliko je
projektna djelatnost važna za problem društvenog i
civilizacijskog razvitka, pa sam to naravno uključivao
u svoj kritičarski program.
Ako se mogu zadržati na temi moga intelektualnog
formiranja, ispričat ću jedan događaj iz 1968. godine.
To je uopće čudesna godina, nema mjeseca u kojem
se te godine nešto važno za mene nije desilo. Ali, ovo
je bio slučaj osobit. U ranu jesen 1968. godine u Bor­
deauxu, međunarodna udruga likovnih kritičara AICA
imala je svoju godišnju skupštinu i prigodni simpozij
s temom: Umjetnost i televizija. Putar je bio nekim
povodom u Kanadi, u Vancouveru. Po povratku je ve­
oma lijepo pričao o svojim doživljajima i meni je dao
McLuhanovu knjigu Understanding Media, jer se en­
gleskim nije služio. Kad sam vidio koja je tema simpo­
zija, a ja sam član te udruge od 1959. godine, obratio
sam se Ivi Bojaniću koji je bio novi generalni direktor
Radiotelevizije Zagreb, pokazao sam mu poziv. Idi,
rekao je bez daljnjega. Postavio sam neka pitanja, i
sebi i općenito, o tome što se može reći o umjetnosti
i televiziji, i koristio Marshalla McLuhana. Poslao
sam referat nakon što je preveden na francuski, i
doputovao u Bordeaux kasno navečer. Sutradan je
započeo skup, predsjedavao je Giulio Carlo Argan
132
the Venice Biennale to the Milan Triennale. I visited kao službena ideologija. Je li Ar­ Yes, because it was not about
Documenta in Kassel back in 1959. It was only pos­ ganova ocjena točna ili nije, to art for its own sake. It was about
sible because of my permanent job as a journalist. me nije toliko zanimalo koliko the mission of modern art in the
The Triennale was a great influence for me, opening što je zapravo taj Marx. sense of historical change, the
new horizons. It showed me numerous thematic development of the world, socie­
oris
exhibitions of Italian, European and global archi­ ty, social systems etc. Even when
tecture and urban planning, as well as important U Vašoj kritičarskoj djelatnosti, it pretends to be indifferent or
people making great presentations. It was there that gotovo od samih početaka, bila neutral, art cannot be indiffer­
I learned about HfG, the design college from Ulm, je razvidna ideja napretka i soci­ ent. It speaks from the essence
which was thoroughly presented at the 12th Triennial jalnog angažmana, ugrađena i u of humanity, even when created
in 1960. I realized the importance of design for the poimanje umjetnosti. with the most complex technical
development of society and civilization, so I naturally instruments. The writings of all
included it in my critical outlook. meštrović the important modernist authors
If I can linger on the topic of my intellectual formation, Da, jer se ne radi o umjetnosti talk about a new time that tran­
I will tell you about an event from 1968. All in all, it za sebe, nego se radi o tome što scends borders, especially the
was a wonderful year, with something important hap­ se u umjetnosti novijega mo­ difference between human and
pening to me every month. But this was special. In the dernog vremena može očitati o non-human or beyond human. I
early autumn of 1968, the international association njenoj misiji u smislu samoga somehow accepted that belief,
of art critics, AICA, had its annual assembly in Bor­ povijesnoga gibanja, kamo to identified with it, so I saw no
deaux and a symposium entitled: “Art and Television”. ide svijet, društvo, društveni reason why it should not be
Putar was on an assignment in Vancouver, Canada. sustavi itd. Jer čak i kad glumi accepted by society at large. But
When he came back, he talked about his interesting indiferentnost, neutralnost, that wider dimension of art has
trip and gave me McLuhan’s book Understanding umjet­nost ne može biti indife­ been lost under the influence
Media, since he did not speak English. As an AICA rentna. Ona govori iz korijena of various conservative trends.
member since ’59, I saw the topic of the symposi­ ljudskoga bića, pa i kad se izvo­ Look at the exhibitions of re­
um. I showed the invitation to Ivo Bojanić, the new di s najsloženijim tehničkim cent architectural production in
manager of Zagreb Radio&TV. He immediately told pomagalima. U pisanim doku­ Croatia. The quality of certain
me to go. I posed some questions, in general and to mentima svih važnijih autora structures is high, up-to-date in
myself, on what I could say about art and television, moderne, riječ je o novom vre­ every way. But all the structures
relying on Marshall McLuhan. I sent my essay after menu koje nadilazi granice, are shown separately, isolated,
it was translated to French and I arrived to Bordeaux prije svega podjele, što je ljuds­ outside their wider context.
late at night. The symposium started the next day. Vladimir Tatlin, ko, a što je ne-ljudsko, ono što Such a structure can exist in
“Novi Byt” (“Novi
Giulio Carlo Argan was presiding and started by način života”/”New se čovjeka ne tiče. Ja sam to Switzerland, or Italy, or any
Way of Life”), 1924.
proposing a change in the order of presentations. To Frankfurtska
uvje­renje na neki način prihva­ country where the architectural
my surprise, he proposed that my essay should be kuhinja ilustrirana u
Das Neue Frankfurt
tio, identificirao se s tim, pa nije profession has up-to-date pro­
/ The Frankfurt Kit­
read first. I calmly read my essay in French, returned chen as illustrated
bilo razloga, držao sam, da to cedures. But one should notice
in Das Neue Frank-
to my seat and heard Argan say: “There, you had the furt, arhitektica / ne prođe i u samome društvu. what it lacks in the sense of
architect Margarete
opportunity to hear a genuine Marxist approach to Schütte Lihotzky, Premda se pod utjecajem raz­ a wider functional sense. The
1927.
our topic.” I was surprised by that comment. It was nih konzervativnih nahrupina, most beautiful home is never

ta šira dimenzija bavljenja umjetnošću zagubila, ne­
stala.
Pogledajte izložbe recentne arhitektonske produkcije
u Hrvatskoj. Kvaliteta pojedinih objekata je izrazita, up
today u svakom pogledu. Ali svi se objekti prikazuju
izdvojeno, izolirano, izvan svojega šireg konteksta.
Takav objekt može biti i u Švicarskoj, i u Italiji, u bilo
kojoj od zemalja gdje postoji arhitektonska profesija
koja je u svojim postupcima ažurirana. Ali i tu se mora
vidjeti što nedostaje u smislu njenog šireg funkcijskog
smisla. Nije ni jedan najljepši dom, dom sam po sebi.
Do njega se odnekuda dolazi, on je ili pod Sljemenom
ili na nekom otoku itd. Ako se izvlači iz toga konteksta,
mora se postaviti pitanje zašto. Odgovor je jasan –
zato jer je to rezultat jednog povlaštenog slučaja u
društvenom pogledu koji se može, kao u nekoj niši,
izdvojiti za sebe i zanemariti sve što se dalje ili šire
u društvu zbiva.
A istodobno imate tisuće i tisuće objekata divlje
izgradnje koja postaje akutni problem, ali ostaje
posve izvan profesionalne svijesti i moralne savjesti
arhitekta. U jednom od nedavnih brojeva časopisa
ČIP, bile su reproducirane dvije fotografije iz zraka, a
prikazuju “maligne” izrasline na istočnom dijelu grada
Zagreba, nekih 10 km², neregulirane gradnje. Je li to
Zagreb, ili nije Zagreb. Što je Zagreb? Pokazao sam
te fotografije nekim kolegama i zapitao ih: pogodite iz
koje je od zemalja Trećeg svijeta ovaj snimak?
134
just a home. It is arrived at from somewhere, it stands
under a mountain, on an island etc. If it is removed
from its context, one should ask why. The answer is
clear: because it is the result of a socially privileged
case, which can be isolated in its niche, forgetting
about everything that goes on in wider society.
At the same time, you have thousands upon thousands
of illegal constructions which are becoming a burning
issue but remain outside the professional conscious­
ness and moral conscience of architects. A recent
issue of ČIP magazine showed two aerial photographs
of “malign” lumps in the eastern part of Zagreb, some
10 km2 of chaotic construction. Is it Zagreb or not?
What is Zagreb? I showed those photographs to some
colleagues and told them: guess which third world
country this comes from!
Do not forget, this is happening in a city that was a
role model of modern urban planning between the
world wars. Weissmann, a citizen of Zagreb, was a
co-author of the Athens Charter and one of the closest
associates of Le Corbusier. In fact, his version of the
Athens Charter is different from Le Corbusier’s which
was published. On the ship returning from Athens to
Marseille, they disagreed about some decisions from
the conference. An issue of Arhitektura is dedicated to
CIAM. It includes the documentation about the case.
Today Zagreb can boast of nothing of the kind. It is
hard and painful to talk about it.
fotografija / photo
by Damil Kalogjera
Ne zaboravite, to se zbiva u gradu koji je bio jedan
od uzora modernog urbanizma između dva rata.
Zagrepčanin Weissmann bio je suautor Atenske po-
velje i jedan od Le Corbusierovih najbližih suradnika.
Dapače, njegova verzija Atenske povelje razlikuje se
od Le Corbusierove. Oni su se na povratku iz Atene
u Marseille na brodu razišli u nekim zaključcima s
protekle konferencije. Jedan broj časopisa Arhitektura
posvećen je CIAM-u. I tu se nalazi dokumentacija o
tome slučaju. Danas se Zagreb ničim sličnim ne može
pohvaliti. Teško je i bolno o tome govoriti.
Ne zalazim na područja koja su narušena ili onemogu­
ćena u jednom boljem razvojnom pogledu, primjerice
Trešnjevka. Raduje me da se negdje ipak pokušavaju
srediti veće cjeline, i ponovno vratiti urbanistička
komponenta u arhitektonsku praksu.
oris
Nedavno je izašla knjiga kolegice Ljiljane Kolešnik,
Između istoka i zapada, koja se bavi likovnom kritikom
1950-ih godina. Knjiga analizira kako društvene tako i
likovne fenomene te donosi određena nova vrednovanja
tog razdoblja u hrvatskoj umjetnosti, naročito u vezi
EXAT-a 51, pitanja apstrakcije i njegovog doprinosa u
kontekstu pojma avangarde.
meštrović
Prije svega bih čestitao kolegici na velikome poslu koji
je obavila, knjiga je količinom građe i po prosudbama
vrlo važna, prekretna možda, jer nitko se prije nje
nije sustavno pozabavio procjenom značenja likovne
kritike u tim bitnim godinama. Što se tiče ovih pitanja
o apstrakciji, to nije dominanta njena bavljenja. Najz­
načajnija je njena ocjena što je i kakav je bio moderni­
zam za koji se likovna umjetnost, a u vezi s tim i čitav
društveni sklop, u to doba zalagao pa i zanosio. Moja
ocjena toga njenog pokušaja je pozitivna, afirmativna.
Apstrakcija pak je prerazvučen, odveć neodređen
pojam, termin, pa se dodaje poneka riječ, pridjev
ili imenica, kao geometrijska apstrakcija ili action
painting itd. Sve je to apstrakcija. Što to znači? Nije
figuracija. Svoditi čitav problem na figurativno-nefigu­
rativno, što je javnost tada najviše intrigiralo, naprosto
je trivijalno, tako da je mnogo važnije razmotriti one
programske momente koji su se izričito očitovali u dje­
lovanju EXAT-a 51. što je kolegica Kolešnik učinila na
radikalan način. Naime, ta je grupa poznata po svom
manifestu koji je, makar literarno nedorađen, grub
u apodiktičkim formulacijama, ipak jasno određen
u artikulaciji nove uloge likovnosti i likovnog radni­
ka, što s obzirom na tadašnji društveni kontekst ja
posebno vrednujem. Ali, kolegica gleda iz povijesno
šire perspektive pa dolazi do zaključka koji može biti
iznenađujući. Vrijedi ga citirati: “Dakle, odgovor na
I am not going into areas that have been damaged
or disabled from the aspect of a better development,
like the quarter of Trešnjevka. I am glad that larger
units are still being organized in some places, that
the component of urban planning is returning into
architectural practice.
oris
Your colleague Ljiljana Kolešnik recently published
Between East and West, a book about the criticism
of visual arts in the 1950s. The book analyses
both social and artistic phenomena, providing
some new valuations of that period in Croatian
art, especially regarding EXAT 51, the issue of
abstraction and its contribution within the concept
of avant-garde.
meštrović
First of all, I congratulate my colleague on her great
work. The quantity of materials and valuations
makes the book very important, maybe even crucial,
since she was the first to systematically examine
the significance of the criticism of visual arts in
that period. As for the issue of abstraction, it is not
a major element of her work. Her most important
valuation concerns the nature of the modernism
promoted and even revered by the visual arts and
the entire social system of that time. I think her effort
is positive and affirmative.
On the other hand, the term “abstraction” is too
general, too vague, so people add a word, an ad­
jective or a noun, such as geometric abstraction,
action painting etc. All that is abstraction. What
does it mean? It is not figurative. To reduce the
entire problem to being figurative or non-figurative,
which was most intriguing to the public at the time, is
simply trivial. It is much more important to consider
the programme aspects that were explicitly shown in
the activities of EXAT 51, which was radically done
by my colleague Kolešnik. In fact, that group is well
known for its manifesto; although it lacks literary
finesse and includes rough apodictic formulations,
it clearly articulates the new role of visual arts and
artists, which I find particularly valuable considering
the social context of the time. But my colleague
sees things from a wider historical perspective, so
she reaches a conclusion that seems surprising.
Let me quote it: “In fact, if we ask whether EXAT
51 was repeating the experiences of the historical
avant-garde or acting upon them, the answer is clear:
it was repeating them. Therefore, the true nature
of that artistic project should be seen as solving
the problem of co-articulating artistic and political
forms.” (p. 153)
 pitanje je li u slučaju EXAT-a 51 riječ o ponavljanju ili
djelovanju na temelju iskustava historijske avangar­
de – odgovor je nesumnjivo – o ponavljanju. Stoga
pravu prirodu toga umjetničkog projekta treba tražiti
u razrješenju problema koartikulacije umjetničkih i
političkih formi.” (str. 153)
Iz tog uvida kolegica Kolešnik dolazi do najznačajn­
ije, najsmjelije, završne ocjene u svojoj knjizi: prije
Gorgone i Novih tendencija u hrvatskoj poslijeratnoj
umjetnosti nije bilo avangarde. To se mišljenje posve
kosi s ovim najnovijim događajem, izložbom “Avangar­
dne tendencije u hrvatskoj umjetnosti”, pokušajem da
se prikaže niz momenata u prošlostoljetnoj hrvatskoj
umjetnosti koji su imali naznake moguće avangard­
nosti. Moram priznati da je za svaku pohvalu takav
pokušaj, no on iziskuje i dugoročniju studijsku obradu
u pripremi i daleko kompletniji arsenal u prezentaciji.
Jer ako je jedna, dvije ili tri fotografije u momentu
nekog hrvatskog autora istureno nad općim nivoom
te djelatnosti, značaj dosega koji je ostvaren u tome
izrazito autorskom momentu nije vidljiv kada sam
kontekst izostane. Utoliko je izložba manjkava.
oris
Vratimo li se na EXAT 51, važno je da se iz razmatranja
ne izgubi njegov odnos prema dizajnu i prema arhitek­
turi, gdje se uvode i vrijednosti naslijeđa Bauhausa.
Čini nam se da je uloga EXAT-a 51 avangardna u smislu
o kojem ste vi govorili, dakle u smislu uvođenja utopij­
skog horizonta prema kojem se razvija ideja sintetske
plastičke umjetnosti.
meštrović
Točno, fronta je važna, a ne ovaj ili onaj pomak. To je
prethodna izložba Makovićeve grupe, obrada hrvats­ke
umjetnosti 1950-ih godina, jasno pokazala. EXAT nije
bio stvar jedne grupice koja se ovako ili onako složi­
la, nego je važan val kolektivnih društvenih emocija
izazvan povijesnom mogućnošću da se neka vizija
dogura do pitanja: do kuda ovo društvo može doći,
da se vizija prisvoji kao nešto zaista moguće. I na toj
velikoj fronti, od filma do arhitekture, od zgrada za
znanstvene ustanove – Institut “Ruđer Bošković”, do
velikih sajamskih hala, od mostova do cijelih mnogih
gradskih četvrti. Sve to nije zasluga EXAT-a 51, ali
je zasluga da tome kretanju pripada, kao što i ovo
donekle može biti naznačeno u programu EXAT-a.
Ali u svemu tome važni su autorski stavovi, važna je
smionost, argumentacija ili uvjerenje i produktivna
rasprava u društvu ako do nje može doći.
oris
EXAT 51 kao likovni program s teorijskog stanovišta u
osnovi ostaje zatvoren unutar jednoga teksta, a to je
tekst samoga manifesta. Pojavom Novih tendencija
136
This insight leads to the most important, most daring, dešava se jedan značajan pomak meštrović
final valuation in the book: before Gorgona and New na koji ste i vi bitno utjecali. Nove I must say I am not happy with
Tendencies, there was no avant-garde in Croatian post- tendencije su internacionalne, uk­ your statement. I would not
war art. This opinion is completely opposed to the latest ljučuju različita likovna strujanja, say that my thoughts on those
event, the exhibition called “Avant-Garde Tendencies a ono što je posebno važno, u events today, after so much
in Croatian Art”, attempting to show several phases njih su neposredno uključeni te­ time, are final. There was an
in Croatian art in the last century that possibly had an oretičari te se razvija elaborirana event that I will use as an ex­
avant-garde character. I must say that such an effort is teo­rets­ka platforma. U tom smislu ample. For my new book, called
praiseworthy, but it requires a longer scientific preparato­ može se govoriti o povezanosti Dispersion of Meaning: The
ry work and a much more comprehensive arsenal for the umjetničke produkcije i izgradnje Fading out of the Doctrinaire
presentation. Because if one, two or three photographs određene ideološke pozicije. World? my colleague Darko
in a phase of a Croatian author are above the general Fritz agreed to do the graphic
level of the time, the significance of what was achieved meštrović design. When he was preparing
in that very original phase cannot be seen without the S vašom formulacijom nisam an exhibition presenting the
context. The exhibition is lacking in that respect. sretan, moram reći. Ne bih 1960s and the early 1970s
mogao reći da su moja promišl­ in Zagreb, for a museum es­
oris
janja tih događanja danas nakon tablishment in Germany, Fritz
When we talk about EXAT 51, it is important to keep toliko vremena zaključena. Ima asked for my part of the pho­
in mind its relation to design and architecture, where jedan moment koji bih sada tographic archive about the
it also introduced the values inherited from Bauhaus. htio ilustrativno upotrijebiti. Za activities of Gorgona. I gave
It seems that the role of EXAT 51 was avant-garde in moju novu knjigu pod naslovom him things that were still un­
the sense you mentioned, in the sense of introducing Raspršenje smisla: doktrinarni published, such as the photos
a utopian horizon for the idea of synthetic plastic art. svijet na izmaku? kolega Darko of the late Branko Balić on the
Fritz preuzeo je na sebe napraviti day when the members of Gor­
meštrović njen prijelom, i likovnu opremu. gona, in the premises of the City
Exactly, what matters is the front, not this or that U jednom momentu priređujući Gallery of Contemporary Art on
achievement. It was clearly shown by the previous izložbu koja obrađuje 1960-e i Katarinski Square, participated
exhibition of the group of Maković, which presented početak 1970-ih godina u Zagre­ in the “welcome party” for the
Croatian art in the 1950s. EXAT was not the work bu, za jednu muzejsku ustanovu first works of the New Tenden­
of a little group that somehow got together, but an u Njemačkoj, Fritz je zatražio cies (NT) and saluted the event
important wave of collective social emotions caused fotografsku dokumentaciju o in a typically Gorgonesque
by the historical possibility of bringing a vision to the djelovanju Gorgone koju sam way. The function of Gorgona
question: How far can this society go to adopt the vision dijelom imao. Dao sam mu nešto was to say something that
as something really possible? On that great front, from što nije publicirano dosad, snim­ cannot be expressed in words
film to architecture, from buildings for scientific estab­ ke pokojnoga Branka Balića u – through behaviour, a ritual,
lishments (Ruđer) to large trade fair halls, from bridges momentu kad su članovi Gorgo­ a non-standard, unambitious,
to entire city blocks. All this is not the merit of EXAT ne u prostorijama Gradske ga­ non-presumptuous document.
51, but its merit is to belong to that movement and to lerije suvremene umjetnosti na I realized that Gorgona was
partly indicate this in its programme. In all this, what Katarininom trgu sudjelovali u “ actually the first to accept
matters are the authors’ positions, what matters is the svečanom dočeku “ prvih radova the works and ideas of NT,
daring, the arguments or the belief, and a productive Novih tendencija, i na tipično especially what was the least
discussion in the society, if possible. gorgonski način salutirali tome orthodox about them, from
događaju. Funkcija Gorgone je Manzoni to Knifer, who is the
oris bila da kaže nešto što se riječi­ most beautiful segment at Ma­
From the standpoint of theory, EXAT 51 as a pro­ ma ne može reći. Ponašanjem, ković’s exhibition “Avant-Garde
gramme in visual arts remains closed within a single ritua­lom, nekim nestandardnim, Tendencies”, maybe due to the
text: its manifesto. Appearance of the New Tenden­ ne­ambicioznim, nepreuzetnim designers who set it up. In fact,
cies was a significant step forward, which you influ­ dokumentom. Shvatio sam da je Knifer can be found in both
enced in a significant way. The New Tendencies were zapravo Gorgona prva prihvatila parts, the one about Gorgona
international, including different trends in visual radove i ideje Novih tendencija, and the one about NT, as their
arts, and most significantly, they directly involved the naročito u onom njihovom na­ personal link. What I mean is
theorists, developing a detailed theoretical platform. jmanje ortodoksnom aspektu, od the following: what is ideology
In that sense, we can talk about the relation between Manzonija do Knifera, koji je na here? The position of Gorgona
artistic production and the construction of a specific Makovićevoj izložbi “Avangardne is totally against ideology – its
Petar Dabac, Picelj & Srnec –
ideological position. Jean & Saša, 1971. tendencije” možda zaslugom i members saw that NT had no

dizajnera koji su postavljali izložbu, njen najljepši
segment. Jer se upravo Knifer nalazi i u jednome i u
drugome dijelu, u prikazu Gorgone i u prikazu Novih
tendencija, dakle tu je i njihov personalni spoj. Hoću
reći sljedeće – što je tu ideologija? Gorgonaški stav
je apsolutno antiideološki – gorgonaši su vidjeli da
u Novim tendencijama nema ideologije, barem ne
one koju su odbijali ili ignorirali. Taj bitan moment
nije prepoznat, nije dublje analiziran, a otvara i jedan
uvid koji je značajan, a to je i kritička primjedba di­
sertaciji Ješe Denegrija koji je izuzetno zaslužan što
je integrirao dvije značajne pojave 1950-ih i 1960-ih
godina, EXAT 51 i nove tendencije, dovodeći ih čak
u neku izravniju vezu. Osim opće predispozicije koja
postoji u kontinuitetu jednoga kulturnog ambijenta,
izravne veze EXAT-a i Novih tendencija nema. I nisu
predstavnici EXAT-a bili ti koji su prvi prepoznali ili
saznali što je to novo na horizontu. To kretanje, a
u tom smislu i čitav taj kompleks, traži potpuniju
valorizaciju.
No, nadam se da će tome pomoći nastojanja koja je
pokrenuo kolega Fritz svojom pronicljivošću i nevje­
rojatnom upornošću. Priprema se uskoro kompleksna
izložba u Zentrum für Kunst und Medientechnologie
(ZKM) u Karlsruheu, a prva probna verzija upravo je
sada prikazana u Grazu. Obuhvaća čitavo razdoblje
od 1961. do 1973. te uz NT uključuje i simpozije o
kompjuterskim vizualnim istraživanjima i časopis
138
ideology, at least not one they refused or ignored.
That important aspect was neither understood nor
thoroughly analyzed, although it opens a significant
insight; this is also a criticism of the dissertation of
Ješa Denegri, whose great merit is that he integrated
two important phenomena of the 1950s and 1960s,
EXAT 51 and NT, and even related them more directly.
Aside from the general conditions for the continuity of
a cultural environment, there is no direct relation be­
tween EXAT and NT. And the representatives of EXAT
were not the first to recognize or understand the new
developments on the horizon. Those developments,
and that entire complex, require a fuller valuation.
But I hope that it will be helped by the efforts initi­
ated by my colleague Fritz with his sharpness and
incredible perseverance. Soon there will be a complex
exhibition in ZKM (Zentrum für Kunst und Medien-
technologie) in Karlsruhe; the work in progress has
just been presented in Graz. It covers the entire period
from 1961 to 1973, including not only NT, but also
the Computers and Visual Research symposia and Bit
International magazine. I was very surprised when the
great authority Peter Weibel in his introductory text in
the catalogue promoted a new, more comprehensive
valuation of the significance of what happened in
Zagreb and the role of Zagreb at the time. In the book
which I must mention, MediaArtHistories, published
by MIT Press this year, the first contribution is Wei­
Bit international. Bio sam jako iznenađen kad je
veliki autoritet Peter Weibel u uvodnome tekstu ka­
taloga afirmirao tu novu, cjelovitiju ocjenu značenja
zbivanja u Zagrebu i ulogu Zagreba u to vrijeme. I u
knjizi koju moram spomenuti, koja se pojavila ove
godine u izdanju MIT Pressa, MediaArtHistories, prvi
je Weiblov tekst koji govori o algoritmu kao pojmu
jednako prisutnom i u znanosti i u ovim načinima
umjetničkoga programiranja koji su se očitovali u
glavnini radova Novih tendencija ili pojedinih grupa
kao što su milanski članovi udruge MID. Ja sam i kod
Almira Mavigniera na jednom malom platnu prepoznao
taj algoritam nakon što sam pročitao Weibelov uvodni
tekst u toj pozamašnoj knjizi. Tradicionalnom slikar­
skom tehnikom na platnu, on je primitivinm sredstvom
unosio po jednom unaprijed sročenom programu točke
boje, veće, manje i u raznim nijansama. Dakle, to je
algoritam, slijed eksplicitno definiranih instrukcija
po kojima se rad izvodi. Nove tendencije po Weibelu
uvukle su i gledatelja u tu igru, u onim objektima koji
su to dopuštali. Na izložbi u Grazu grupa MID iz Milana
ima najljepše i tehnički savršeno dotjerane objekte
koji dopuštaju gledatelju da ih aktivira i da se uživi
u velike mogućnosti kombinacija koje se njegovom
interakcijom mogu pokrenuti.
Treba pojasniti, ne postoje Nove tendencije kao
zatvorena cjelina. To je jedan živi proces u kojem je
evolucija u slikovitome smislu bila zamjetna. Od na­
slova tendencije u množini, do tendencije na kraju ili
Nove tendencije u jednini, pokušaji su da se prati, da
se intervenira u sama zbivanja. Ni tekstualno, ja nisam
ništa pridonio čvršćem idejnom fiksiranju pokreta,
iako je bilo takvih pokušaja.
oris
Htjeli smo naglasiti ulogu teoretičara i likovnog kritičara
kao aktivnog protagonista Novih tendencija što je tada
nova pojava u Hrvatskoj, paralelna sa strujanjima u inter­
nacionalnom kontekstu. Kakvo je Vaše osobno iskustvo
kao svojevrsnog pokretača i katalizatora?
meštrović
Mi smo postali aktivisti, koordinatori kako smo se
tada nazivali. Zaista smo pokušavali organizacijski
omogućiti kolektivno djelovanje pokreta, što je bila
jedna iluzija, ali ne bih se na tome zadržao. Treba
nešto reći i pustiti iskustvu i vremenu da kaže svoje,
je li to što je tada rečeno pogođeno ili je promašeno.
Sjećam se Morelleta kao vrlo važnog autora, naročito
Članovi Gorgone
početnih godina. U tekstu koji je Morellet dao među
dočekuju radove Novih
Tendencija / Gorgona
izjave i ostalih sudionika prve izložbe, što je sastavni
members welcoming
the works of the New dio kataloga iz 1961. godine, on izričito kaže da se
Tendencies, Galerija
suvremene umjetnosti zalaže za znanstveni, a ne intuitivni pristup umjetnosti.
/ City Gallery of Contem­
porary Art, Zagreb To je naprosto pogrešno. Prvi je sam Morellet, u tome
fotografija / photo by
Branko Balić je i veličina njegove darovitosti, u svoje geometrijski
bel’s text discussing the algorithm as a notion equally
present in science and in those methods of artistic
programming that appeared in most works of NT. I
recognized that algorithm in a small canvas by Almir
Mavignier after reading Weibel’s text in that large
book. In the traditional technique of canvas painting,
he used a primitive instrument to place coloured dots,
larger or smaller, in different nuances, according
to a predefined programme. It was an algorithm, a
sequence of explicitly defined instructions to make a
work. Weibel said that NT involved the viewer in the
game, if the objects permitted it. At the exhibition in
Graz, the MID group from Milan has the most beautiful
and technically perfectly arranged objects allowing the
viewer to activate them and to enjoy the many possible
combinations initiated by his or her interaction.
It must be clarified that NT was not a closed unit. It
was a living process with a noticeable evolution in
the visual sense. From “New Tendencies”, to “New
Tendency” as a singular, and to the final “Tendencies”,
there were attempts to follow events, to get involved in
them. Textually, I made no contribution to a more fixed
idea of the movement, although attempts were made.
oris
We wanted to stress the role of the theorist and
critic of visual arts as an active protagonist of NT,
which was a new phenomenon in Croatia at the
time, in step with trends in the international con­
text. What is your personal experience as a kind of
an initiator and catalyst?
meštrović
We became activists, coordinators as we used to call
ourselves. We really tried to make an organization
that would enable the collective activities of the
movement, which was an illusion, but I will not linger
on that. One should say something and let experience
and time have their say on whether that utterance
was right or wrong. I remember Morellet as a very
important author, especially in the early years. In the
text that Morellet included among the statements of
other participants in the first exhibition, which is a
part of the catalogue from ’61, he explicitly said that
he upheld a scientific approach to art, not an intuitive
one. It was simply wrong. Morellet himself – and this is
the greatness of his gift – included a crooked branch
of a tree in his geometrically conceived paintings. One
of his cycles is even named Geometree, geometry and
tree. Was it a confutation of his earlier statement?
Or rather, what is irrational in that method? On the
other hand, do not forget that internationally reputed
scientists, not critics or art historians such as Giulio
Carlo Argan, Udo Kultermann or Umbro Apollonio, but
highly respected scientists such as Abraham Moles

koncipirane slike ubacio krivu granu nekog drveta.
Čak je i jedan ciklus nazvao Geometree, geometrija i
drvo. Je li time svoju raniju izjavu porekao? Ili, što je
iracionalno u tom postupku? S druge strane, nemojte
zaboraviti da je među znanstvenicima internacio­
nalnog značaja, ne kritičarima ili povjesničarima
umjetnosti, kao što su bili Giulio Carlo Argan, Udo
Kultermann ili Umbro Apollonio, nego među znanst­
venicima visoke reputacije kakvu je imao Abraham
Moles, interes za te pojave bio velik. Poslije sam
čitao jednu Molesovu knjigu u kojoj on obrazlaže
da u kreativnom procesu umjetnika i znanstvenika
nema razlike. Tu se može onda vidjeti u kojoj mjeri
su pojedine formulacije, teorijske ili kvaziteorijske,
u zabludi, ili programska opredjeljenja također jed­
nostrano definirana. Kad sam spomenuo znanstve­
nike, ne smijemo zaboraviti Vladu Bonačića, iznimno
darovitog znanstvenika iz Instituta “Ruđer Bošković”
koji je, to je ova izložba u Grazu sada dobro pokazala,
postao pasionirani umjetnik, koji svoju znanstvenu
educiranost i osposobljenost koristi u promišljanju
jedne izrazito likovne zamisli. To je jedinstveni slučaj
da znanstvenik postaje umjetnik, u tome sklopu.
oris
Jedna od teza na kojima ste inzistirali ne samo u vri­
jeme Novih tendencija nego i poslije jest povezivanje
znanosti i umjetnosti, upućujući na istraživanje
produktivnih načina razmjene i primjene iskustva tih
dvaju područja ljudske djelatnosti. Govorili ste i pisali
o scientifikaciji umjetnosti te o potrebi da znanost
usvoji dostignuća umjetničkih praksi. Dakle, riječ je o
dvosmjernom pro­cesu koji bi objedinio te razdijeljene
djelatnosti.
meštrović
Ta je ideja njegovana još i u Bauhausu. Ali, ne smije
se doslovno shvatiti ne uvažavajući povijesne okol­
nosti, podjelu i među ljudima i u ljudima. To je jedna
trajna problematika koju neće apsolvirati ni naredne
generacije, ali je očito da je zapadna civilizacija samu
sebe onesposobila da se ta dva, recimo tako, impulsa
u ljudskome bivanju pomire. Ona ih konstantno raspo­
lučuje. Ne bih zalazio u to, ni adoracija istočnjačke
misli, naročito kad se trivijalno i konvencionalno
prenosi, neće nam tu puno pomoći. Ali, ja imam jednu
praktičnu predodžbu čovjekova rasta. On je previše
danas razvio sebe u širinu, unutarnji svijet je zane­
maren, njegovanje unutarnjosti pretpostavlja rast u
visinu, to su možda neki umjetnici i mislioci mnogo
prije na svoj način sebi predočili ili nama naznačili.
Upravo sam završio tekst za jedan kongres koji go­
vori o pluralizmu u 21. stoljeću. I moja je teza, koju
potkrepljujem radovima stanovitih znanstvenika, da
pluralizam uopće nije tema prioritetnog značenja.
140
showed great interest in those phenomena. I later read
a book by Moles where he explains that there is no
difference between the creative processes of artists
and scientists. It shows how certain theoretical or
pseudo-theoretical formulations were wrong or how
certain programme choices were unilaterally defined.
Since I mentioned scientists, we should not forget Vla­
do Bonačić, an exceptionally gifted scientist from the
Ruđer Bošković Institute, who became a passionate
artist, as shown by the exhibition in Graz. He uses his
scientific education and competence to conceive an
eminently visual idea. It is a unique case of a scientist
becoming an artist in such conditions.
oris
One of the theses that you insisted upon, not only
during NT, but also later, is the link between science
and art, pointing to the research of productive ways
to exchange and apply the experiences from these
two areas of human activity. You talked and wrote
about the “scientification” of art and about the need
for science to adopt the achievements of artistic
practices. It is a two-way process that should unite
those separate activities.
meštrović
That idea was already cherished by Bauhaus. But
it must not be taken literally, ignoring the historical
Sphère-trames,
Mića Bašićević,
Paysage de la 1962., 3. Paris
Jedan novi autor, mladi Nicholas Ruiz III, vjerojatno
guerre, 1970. Biennale, Muzej
moderne umjet­ meksičkog porijekla, koji se oformio u New Yorku i
nosti Ville / Ville
Museum of Modern tamo djeluje, pred koji mjesec objavio je knjigu Me-
Art, Pariz / Paris,
1963. tafizika kapitala. To je najudaljenija teorijsko-kritička
pozicija do koje je, po mom uvjerenju, suvremena
misao dosegla: kapital je valuta ili tečaj životnoga
kôda, i čovjek je danas kapital, i tretira se kao kapi­
tal i koristi se kao kapital, ali i ćelija prema drugoj
i prema svome okolišu, postupa na isti način. To ne
znači da treba taj sveobuhvatni trend ili proces kapi­
talizacije svijeta promatrati kao nešto što je sudbina
života na Zemlji. Ma koliko beznadno slabašna danas
bila misao suprotstaviti se kapitalizaciji i kapitalu, to
je jedina misao spasa života koja danas mora važiti
za sve koji suvremeni svijet promišljaju.
oris
Kako se kretalo vaše širenje interesa od područja
umjetnosti prema globalnim problemima? To je teklo
paralelno uz istraživanja vezana za teme kao što su
dizajn koji se stavlja u kontekst problema okoline.
meštrović
Što je dizajn? Dizajn je nešto slično algoritmu, vi ne
možete napraviti jedan artefakt a da niste unaprijed
promislili njegovu funkciju i njegovu konstrukciju.
Moles je imao jednu formulu – što je u tome uspjeh:
povećanje upotrebne i snižavanje strukturalne kom­
circumstances, the divisions between people and
within people. It is a permanent problem that will
not be resolved by future generations either, but
Western civilization has obviously given up on rec­
onciling those two impulses in human existence. It
is constantly dividing them. I will not go deeper into
this; the adoration of Eastern thought, especially
when communicated in a trivial and conventional
way, will not help us much. But I have a practical
vision of man’s progress. Mankind has developed by
spreading out too much, neglecting the inner world;
the care of the inner self assumes growth upwards,
which some artists and thinkers perhaps visualized
or showed a long time ago.
I have just completed a text for a congress about
pluralism in the 21st century. My thesis, supported
by the works of certain scientists, is that pluralism is
not really a priority. A couple of months ago, a young
author Nicholas Ruiz III, probably from Mexico, who
developed in New York and works there, published a
book called The Metaphysics of Capital. In my opin­
ion, it is the farthest theoretical and critical position
reached by contemporary thought: capital is as the
currency or exchange rate of the life code, man as
capital, treated as capital and used as capital, but like
a cell, treating other cells and its environment in the
same way. It does not mean that the ubiquitous trend
or process of global capitalization should be seen as
the destiny of life on earth. No matter how hopelessly
weak, today’s thought opposing capitalization and
capital is the only life-saving thought, which is a must
for everyone thinking about the contemporary world.
oris
How did you widen your interests from art to global
issues? At the same time, you researched topics
such as design, within the context of environmen­
tal issues.
meštrović
What is design? Design is similar to an algorithm, you
cannot make an artefact without first considering its
function and construction. Moles had a formula about
success: increased usage and reduced structural
complexity. If you do not have an idea what to use
and how to use it to succeed, you cannot make any
instrument to help you. Even animals use objects as
helpful instruments, but they do not create them. You
can see young monkeys pulling worms from trees with
thin branches; some birds do similar things. Man
developed the basic idea, improved his abilities, but
not enough in the sense of his own improvement. It
created a gap that cannot be bridged by civilization;
it is getting deeper, since the relation between the
goal and the means has lost the relation towards
 Martin Heide­ pleksnosti. Ako vi nemate predodžbu s čime i kako
gger, Reyner
Banham, 1959. nešto postići, onda ne možete napraviti nikakvo
Pregled časopisa
Ulm, u to vrijeme pomagalo s kojim ćete to postići. I životinje se služe
vodećeg teorij­
skog glasila / predmetima kao pomoćnim instrumentima, ali ih
Summary of Ulm
Magazine, the ne kreiraju. Možete vidjeti mlade majmune kako
leading theoreti­
cal journal of that tankom grančicom izvlače ličinke iz drveta, slično
time.
rade i neke ptice. Čovjek je taj osnovni motiv razvio,
poboljšao svoju sposobnost, ali nedovoljno u smislu
vlastitoga oplemenjenja. Tu je nastao i procijep koji
se civilizacijski ne može nadići; on se produbljuje
zato jer je odnos cilj/ sredstvo izmakao odnosu spram
unutarnjeg razvitka čovjeka. On je eksternaliziran.
Utoliko i posljedice toga eksternoga gospodstva
danas prijete svojom nadmoći cjelokupnom životu.
Po prvi put biva jasno da kapital valja promišljati i
Zadnja genera­
cija Ulmske ško­ prije kapitalizma. Utoliko i Marx možda postaje ne­
le, 1968. Prvi s
desna je Zlatan dostatan za takav dubinski uvid. No Marx će trajno
Međugorac,
danas jedan ostati kao jedna fiksacija koju treba slijediti prema
od istaknutih
nekonvencional­
nih dizajnera u
višoj djelatnosti. Pri tome Marx nije pravio razliku što
Ulmu. / The last
generation of
je umjetnost, a što je znanost. Ali, to je neko stanje
the Ulm School,
1968. First
duševno, koje omogućuje najveći unutarnji horizont
on the right is
Zlatan Međugo­ i najveću životnu sreću.
rac, today one of
the prominent
unconventional
oris
designers in
Ulm.
Ulmska škola (HfG) je istraživala mogućnost nadi­la­
že­nja fragmetacije umjetnosti i znanosti u kontekstu
dru­š­tveno progresivnog programa. Škola je imala sjaj­ne
intelektualne kapacitete i jasnu svijest o potrebi izna­
laženja strategija kako produktivno integrirati dizajn
u društvo, no to ipak nije pridonijelo opstanku škole.
meštrović
Protestni letak
povodom zatvara­ Kad jedna ustanova, koja je htjela nastaviti ono što
nja Ulmske škole
/ Leaflet protesting
closing of the Ulm
je Bauhaus razvijao 1920.-ih godina i što je 1933.-e
School.
bilo prikraćeno, pokuša to napraviti 20 godina kas­
Almir Mavignier,
Deformierter Kreis, nije, 1953. godine, da bi 1968. temeljem sličnih
Hamburg, 1962.
po­stu­paka, bilo obustavljeno, što se može danas za
to re­ći? Da se ljudska saznanja, najbolja saznanja
ne uvažavaju. Znate li tko je gostovao kao predavač
na Ulmskoj školi? Norbert Wiener, osnivač kiberne­
tike. A ja ne bih htio glorificirati način kako je
konstituira­n a ta ustanova. No, važni su principi,
prije svega in­ter­nacionalizam. Max Bill je doveo Ar­
gentinca To­ma­sa Maldonada i prepustio mu da vodi
školu kad je shvatio da je ovaj po nekim saznanjima
ispred njega. To su sretni ishodi, jer zlo i kad se po­
vuče nije nestalo.
Ja vas pitam, koliko su puta neke naše velike firme u
samo deset godina promijenile svoj kućni stil ili svoj
imidž. Znate li kada je dizajniran znak Lufthanse? To
je rad Ulmske škole, nitko ne bi ni pomislio to mije­nja­
ti. I društveni ambijent je rezultat kvalitetnog rada,
i kulturni i privredni i socijalni i idejni, sve ono što
cjelinu predočuje. Imali smo u Zagrebu sedamdesetih
godina, sveučilišni postdiplomski smjer za dizajn:
142
man’s inner development. It has been externalized.
Today, the superior consequences of that external
domination threaten all life. For the first time, it is
becoming clear that capital should be considered
even before capitalism. In that sense, even Marx
could be insufficient for such a deep insight. But
Marx will remain forever as a fixation to be followed
on the way to a higher activity. Marx did not make
a difference between art and science. But it is a
spiritual state, which enables the largest inner ho­
rizon and the greatest happiness in life.
oris
The Ulm school (HfG) researched the possibility of
overcoming the fragmentation of art and science
in the context of a socially progressive programme.
The school had great intellectual capacities and
a clear idea of the need to find strategies to pro­
ductively integrate design into society, but it did
not save the school.
meštrović
When an establishment wants to continue what Bau­
haus developed in the 1920s until it was stopped in
1933, and tries to do it 20 years later, in 1953, only
to be stopped in 1968 in a similar way, what can you
say about it today? That human learning, the best
learning, is not respected. Do you know who was a
guest lecturer at the Ulm school? Norbert Wiener,
the founder of cybernetics. I do not intend to glorify
the way in which that establishment was founded.
But what matters are principles, especially interna­
tionalism. Max Bill brought the Argentinian Tomás
Maldonado and let him manage the school when
he realized that some of Maldonado’s insights were
above his own. Those are happy events, because evil
can retreat, but it does not disappear.
Let me ask you a question: how many times have our
big companies changed their style or image in less
than ten years? Do you know when the Lufthansa
logo was designed? It was the work of the Ulm
school; nobody would dream of changing it. Even
social surroundings are the result of high-quality
work, as well as cultural, economic, social and
intellectual surroundings, everything that presents
the whole. In the 1970s, Zagreb had university
postgraduate studies in design; construction design
studies that could be attended by architects or engi­
neers, anyone who knew what construction design
was; organizational studies that could be attended
by economists, lawyers and sociologists; theoretical
studies, for art historians or lawyers. Do you know
that law, a special course in those studies, is a very
important aspect of design activities? Those studies
were terminated by a school reform, after only one
 projektantski smjer koji su mogli upisati i arhitekti
i inžinjeri, svi koji znaju što je projektiranje; organi­
zacijski smjer koji su mogli upisati i ekonomisti,
prav­nici i sociolozi ; te teorijski, i za povjesničare
umjetnosti i za pravnike. Znate li da je pravo koje je
bilo posebni predmet na tome studiju vrlo značajni
aspekt djelatnosti dizajna? Taj studij je likvidirala
školska reforma, nakon svega jedne generacije
studenata, a bilo ih je iz čitave zemlje, od Skoplja do
Ljubljane. Poslije se rađao studij s idejama koje su
bile često sektaške, a neću govoriti o tome pobliže.
Prilike su se izmijenile, no mogućnosti a i potrebe
su time osujećene.
generation of students, who came from the entire
country, from Skopje to Ljubljana. Later, there were
studies with ideas that were often sectarian, but I
will not go into that. Circumstances have changed,
but the possibilities and needs have been thwarted.
oris
In 1993, you moved to the Institute of Economics,
where you have continued developing your interests
and research. To what extent have the experiences
of art and culture influenced your work in those
surroundings, in the sense of developing an integral
idea about contemporary society?
su kulturni i socijalni kapital. Negdje su one primi­ turned into a sector, one among many. The Croatian
jenjene uspješno, negdje su ostale na pola puta, scientific and economical history and/or economic
ali je svakako dijalog između dvije ključne oblasti policy never asked about the negative value or damage
društvenih znanosti, između sociologije i ekonomije, of destroyed, disabled or marginalized intellectual capi­
barem donekle bio uspostavljen. tal. What, then, can you do with design in this country?
I ovim povodom moram reći. Uvijek sam se suprot­
stavljao konvencionalnom značenju termina kultura,
pogotovo kad se on svodi u sektor, među ostale.
Hrvatska znanstvena ekonomska povijest i/ili gospo­
darska politika nikad nisu postavile pitanje kolika je
negativna vrijednost ili šteta uništenog ili onespo­so­
bljenog ili obesposlenog intelektualnog kapitala. Što
ćete onda s dizajnom na našim prostorima?

oris
Vi ste 1993. godine prešli na Ekonomski institut i tamo
dalje nastavili razvijati svoje interese i istraživanja. U
kojoj mjeri su iskustva u umjetnosti i kulturi utjecala
na vaš rad u tom okruženju, u smislu razvoja cjelovite
predodžbe o suvremenom društvu?
meštrović
Kad sam napustio Centar za industrijsko oblikovanje
i otišao na RTV Zagreb, neki su kolege to opravdali
razlogom da se u praksi određeni ciljevi nisu mogli
postići, ali će se moći komunikacijski pripremiti
povoljnija klima za razvoj te djelatnosti. No, s ogor­
čenjem moram reći, jako je žalosno da društvena
misao u Hrvatskoj sama sebe zatajuje. Ponovilo
se to više puta, a i danas se negativna selekcija
nastavlja. Ja sam na Ekonomski institut došao jer
me je “upropastio” dizajn. Izgubio sam mjesto di­
rektora Zavoda za kulturu, jer sam se suprotstavio
nametnutome rješenju za dizajn hrvatskih novčanica.
U Institut sam došao 1993. godine, a projekt koji
sam tamo započeo nosio je naziv “Kulturni kapital i
razvojna strategija Hrvatske”. Taj projekt je okupio
5-6 mladih ljudi koje ja nisam poznavao osobno,
nego sam ih pozvao temeljem njihovih publiciranih
radova. I to je jedinstven slučaj da su se našli mladi
ekonomisti i sociolozi na zajedničkom zadatku. To
je bio vrlo uspješan projekt jer smo 1996. godine
proveli jedinstvenu anketu u Hrvatskoj, na čitavom
teritoriju i po svim generacijama, o pitanjima koja se
odnose na socijalni i kulturni kapital, na dominatni
sustav vrijednosti itd.
U Ekonomskom institutu proveo sam dosad 14
godina, zadnjih nekoliko kao zaslužni znanstvenik –
emeritus. U toj kući, jednoj od najznačajnijih takve
vrste u ovom dijelu Europe, djelovao je nekad socio­
log Josip Županov ili etnologinja Dunja Richtman,
što potvrđuje da je interdisciplinarna orijentacija
i prije postojala. Utoliko sam i ja našao motiva da
se na tom pravcu angažiram, opet slijedom svoga
vlastitoga iskustva, i s novim kategorijama kao što
meštrović
When I left the Centre for Industrial Design and went
to Zagreb Radio&TV in 1969, some colleagues jus­
tified this by saying that certain goals could not be
achieved in practice, but that communications could
prepare a more suitable climate for developing that
activity. However, I must say with indignation that
it is very regrettable that social thought in Croatia
has been self-effacing. It happened several times,
and the negative selection is continuing even today.
I came to the Institute of Economics because I was
“ruined” by design. I lost the position of the director
of the Institute for Culture of Croatia because I op­
posed the forced solution for the design of Croatia’s
paper money. I came to the Institute of Economics in
1993 and started a project called “Cultural Capital
and Developmental Strategy of Croatia”. The project
gathered 5 or 6 young people whom I did not know
personally, but I invited them on the basis of their
published works. It was a unique case where young
economists and sociologists gathered around a
common task. The project was very successful, since
we made a unique Croatian survey in 1996, covering
the entire territory and all generations, asking about
the issues related to social and cultural capital, the
dominant system of values etc.
I have worked in the Institute of Economics for 14
years, the last couple of years as an emeritus. That
house, one of the most important establishments
of that kind in this part of Europe, used to include
the sociologist Josip Županov and the ethnologist
Dunja Richtman, showing an early interdisciplinary
approach. I also had reasons to work in that direction,
following my experience as always, using new
categories such as cultural and social capital. They
have been applied successfully in some cases and
less successfully in others, but the dialog between two
key areas of social sciences – sociology and economy
– has been established at least in part.
Let me add this: I always opposed the conventional
fotografija / photo
meaning of the word “culture”, especially when it is by Damil Kalogjera

144 46