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Diálogo Minuchin e Haley
Diálogo Minuchin e Haley
Diálogo Minuchin e Haley
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iHB9tw3cZc
(versão portuguesa a partir da página X)
JH: this is an experiment to see if two gentlemen who have a lot of experience
in the field of therapy can have a discussion about their BM training which would be of
interest to students and other people who are required to read our books and who are
often, I think, forced into making differences between people who follow your approach
and people who follow my approach. often differences that we would never make. so
we should have a discussion to see if we can produce a dialogue… it's interesting
enough for people want to watch it. let's begin with the issues you and I are in
agreement with that perhaps the rest of the field isn't and then perceive the differences
we might have.
SM: At this point nobody who does therapy will not include certain things that
you do or that I do, that is normally that doesn't imitate we talk in some way or other. so
that I think us pioneers of certain ideas. is interesting to see what happened to the new
generation of people.
JH: sometimes you’d be horrified by what they do, sometimes you’d be pleased,
that’s true.
SM: I think so, but I seem much more … much less aw and respect to the
elders and much more, you know, you think whatever is useful, and I think that, all in
all, is a very good development.
JH: but I think the other change or generation from therapists who felt they
were sort of observers, and objective observers of families, to people who feel under
pressure to produce a change, and therefore they're hungry for ideas and ways to do it,
as they say. they're impatient with just abstractions about the nature of families, really,
they want to know what to do. because they know they have a woman of vomits five to
twenty five times a day, the fact that it's interesting that she vomits or that this may be
related to something in her past isn't they're interested, is how do you stop a woman
from vomiting.
SM: but in turn I recently had a case of a woman that vomits. and I think it was
in Argentina. and when I began to explore, then I began to hear your voice, I began to
explore how much junk food she bought and how much it cost, and then indeed…
when I was developing that question I was thinking, of one few techniques of blending
before then…
SM: That’s Chloe’s thing. (laughter) and then, you know, what I heard, I heard it
in your voice,
SM: and in dimension in which I was exploring that, there's something different
happen and the… this approach was irrelevant. but that is some of the things that I am
trying to teach people. to hear a voice, to make an hypothesis, you try it… and to
change it! you know, and one of the things that I am teaching is how not to be
structural. To the horror of the people that I train, you know. I really am beginning to
think that the (once) that we set the purpose
JH: Once you’re structural and you can talk about a lot of the choices
SM: yes I think that I try to look at the things that different schools have brought
that are positive and that should be incorporated, you know, if we want, in a large pool
and the things that handicap - and I still believe in the possibility…
JH: of emerging, of all the ideas coming out with the best material
SM: well… no. actually of having a healer pouch we're you can put snake skin
and feathers of chickens, you know, and sheet of gold and you set in the measuring
which you can, you know. This is something that I do.
JH: you know, what I was thinking of is, how your situation has changed. and
technology. from your experience at that clinic where you were trying to take people
who didn't know anything about therapy. and certainly didn't know thing about the poor.
and trained them how to do therapy with the families with the poor. and if they could
just get through an interview that wasn't embarrassing I think… that is you were forced
into absolutely practical problems. while at the same time running this fantastic clinic
there was developing from 12 people to 300 in 10 years. With two satellites, and all
this… and you are trying to administer that clinic and also be the only teacher except
with Braulio and somewhat with me. of that gang of people. I think what you've done is
change out of that situation into a time what you got out of it, that you can be more
reflective, you can appreciate thinking, you can be more of a philosopher, so that you
tend to trance, that transmit, that more to students now than you use to.
SM: well you know this is an interesting thing because, you know, I see you
change from a person that entered into the field blasting at windmills. and in a very
effective way, destroying shibboleths and that was the kind of thing.. then you move to
a to a kind of constructor of ways of doing things. that is a very different way of being in
service. and behavior.
JH: I went more for being a philosopher to being a practical person. you were
more a practical person to being a philosopher. We have we passed in the middle.
SM: and then you created this institution. and in creating this institution then
together with getting this institution, this institution creates you.
SM: and I move out of an institution and then I don't have the constraints. it's
interesting in terms about how we are very much part of the context. so I change my
context and my thinking changes in geography. you change your context and then you
achieve certain constraints… a certain, not only constraints, but of course certain ways
of looking, that you see more clearly. In some way at this point… therapy is not the
think that that makes me tic. you know, I do therapy, I enjoy it at somewhat. But I am
not evolving new ways of doing therapy. I was reading your book, I was also reading
Chloe’s book, and these are books of expansion, of how to do things better. well my
last book has only one article about therapy.
JH: so it's a more reflective. suppose today you are going to take over a clinic
like you did in 1955, and you were going to start training the staff, so… what would you
do? how would you begin?
SM: you know, I really don't think I could answer that, because I am a different
person, with much less energy
JH: no I'm … you had the energy back. for anything. well I think there are
people who are starting this… starting up this enterprises, you know. they're taking
over clinics and they want to introduce family therapy.
SM: you know, I can only say… what are these things that I considered were
the most important thing. that I achieved. and some of them have to do with the
changing number of institutions, you know, the first, the clinic became a model of a
modality of therapy that is probably unique, in the sense that it was one child guidance
clinic that was family therapy. there was no different modalities of working, there was
not individual therapy and group therapy and so on. it was one…
JH: You were a purist, in that sense.
SM: yeah. And in that sense it offered a model because all this stuff was trained
in the same way and then many things became very simple because people accept the
way of doing, if a clinic, an institution, has one way of doing it. then it's not
questionable. if a department of a large organization is doing something then it can be
questioned. so that there was a lot of things that became quite simple.
JH: you know I remember the transition, I have a visual image… before you
arrive what they used to do is have a child psychiatrist play with the child and the social
workers would see the parents. and I remember walking behind a one-way mirror when
I got there and sitting up with the social worker talking to two parents. and sitting over
in the corner was a child psychiatrist playing with the child. they put it, they put it all in
one room as a first step to finally having one person be with the family. so it didn't
happen suddenly, when you took it over… it took some real effort.
SM: the first three years were years of tremendous struggle. because the
institution had a particular way of working and I was going to introduce a different way
of working and it was necessary to join this stuff and I joined this stuff and this stuff left
me, so that fortunately a lot of this stuff left me, so that I could begin to work. you know
one of the things was the development of one institution, up the first thing that I feel
very good was that this institution enter into a kind of collaboration with another
institution that was Children's Hospital and introduced an awareness about families in
the pediatric field that
JH: you made a brave try. to try to define a child psychiatry… the family
approach. As the approach of child psychiatry. and the other approaches like a therapy
deviation. I think the Child Guidance clinic in Philadelphia is still the only place that’s a
family-oriented child psychiatry place.
SM: I don't know, I really don't know. but to be… it was a struggle, to define
child psychiatry as family therapy. as family psychiatry. that is my definition.
JH: you know that's another thing that you did that I was appreciated in this
outcome, is many places who are trying to introduce family therapy are trying to be
respectable at the same time. and they say well let's also have individual therapy, and
let's also have group therapy, so we won’t antagonize anybody. and then we'll do
family therapy as well. and what they do is they end up, and it's just like it always was.
you really have to take a purist position and say the rest of it is out, this is the way to
work in order to reorganize the intake process, the therapy process, the termination
process, the record-keeping… everything changes, really.
SM: really what I am looking at, you know, back, I don't know how I thought to
do that.
SM: it was probably a kind of contrary attitude that I had had all my life, you
know. I lens no position.
JH: it was partly that but it was something… it was also that there were certain
people who recognized that this was a revolution in the way of thinking, you know. Don
Jackson was one who did that. in 1957 he resigned from the analytic Association,
moved the couch out of his office, took up families… absolutely and I remember he
attended a meeting in San Francisco… the group therapist. as per reading of the family
therapist and the group therapist… because after all were all the same. because we all
work with groups, family groups are unofficial groups. and they had several hundred
people in that room, and they're very prominent people in the group there, and they
asked Jackson to speak. and Jackson stood up and said: I don't think there's any
relationship whatever between family therapy and group therapy. in families you deal
with changing people who are have an ongoing relationship with each other. in group
therapy you are changing individuals. and he said and I don't think group therapy has
ever come up with a theory of any interest. and I don't believe it ever changed
anybody. and then he took off in disgust family therapy. but to say that take that purist
to position with that crowd of amongst entirely group therapists, and that was a kind of
a position he took. it's got to go all the way this way, and that's it.
SM: but there was something very exciting about the development of the clinic
in this period
SM: so that and then after that there was this struggle and I remember
tremendous problems, and I think that it also produced the possibility of a core of
people that first united in the development of the, of this program. this says we are, we
are persecuted you know it creates a core.
JH: really, no, it was also the time, that was such a crusading idea of doing
something for the poor, that came in… there was also the Vietnam War and I
remember the staff largely led by Neil Daniels walking off of their banners in the entire
world crusade.
SM: it was, it was a political group, it was a very committed group. that had
political ideas and ideas of involvement in social issues. so the family therapy was part
of the time.
JH: you know, I don't think we ever discussed here. I recall what you did when
Martin Luther King got shot. we all gathered in the clinic feeling sad and worried about
that whole black community and Martin Luther King, a new challenge… and you said: I
want every staff member to go to every school and have a discussion with the students
of the significance of this event. and everybody felt this was pretty bizarre and they
were uncomfortable but they went and it was a tremendous success when they came
back. and I remember some were scared to go, and I remember one of them came
back and said, you know what kids said to me: I'm scared. Some black kid, because I
think that you… Martin Luther King… think what they could do to me. if they come in
this neighborhood. I mean he was scared, what's happening out on the world. that
hadn't occurred to me, in a funny way. everybody was thinking the black community
would be up in an uproar about it, when they were really scared. at least a lot of those
kids were. but for… I don't think those kids had a chance of an… of a sensible
discussion of the significance of this event, ordinarily in their classroom. and when you
set the staff in there it did it so nicely.
SM: well to me it was the kind of thing that we did when Kennedy was shot. that
was then one went to the schools and talked to see children, our diffuse and so on. so
it seemed natural that one should do it.
SM: yeah. what happened is that we were afraid of the effect of a white staff in
the black community. and so that the reaching for the another example in which a white
was killed and so on was needed to override, we feel. this was very difficult period.
JH: oh boy, I remember you dealing with the black members of that board, that
you put on the board, and and the insults you took, and you were so patient with
everybody. I remember that scene when they were going to burn my film, those young
black girls made that film, and the black people in the community were organized. said
they wanted that film burn because it showed black life that way, which was what the
girls showed with their life.
SM: well what why don't you describe that they did 21:11
JH: I was a it was a research project in which young people black and white
and middle class and poor were given movie cameras and taught to use them and just
allowed to film anything they wanted to film to see how did they perceive the world
what would they put on film about how they perceived one and this group of girls from
that neighborhood wrote a play one of the wrote the script and they all acted in it in
which young lady gets pregnant and her mother expelled her from the house they have
a big fight enormous and the girls go off and have a pad drink and they acted they
wrote this they filmed it and without any guidance for me except all the work the
camera they they then put titles on it they put music on they found a wonderful child
please I still have it you had it you know and then they showed it to the staff expecting
the staff to be so pleased and the black Scott looked at the reality of those girls life and
they were horrified and they said that film can't be shown and it's got to be destroyed
and they came to me and said had to be running that day and I said we wouldn't bring
that family it's up to the girls what they do with their film and certainly we wouldn't get
about it and they we had to discuss then they were going to run a clinic in here
remember that I remember that and I remember you just took a position obviously you
weren't going to put in that film and we went through quite a struggle and honestly I
remember them they brought the mothers of the girls in to see happen and the mothers
were rather pleased mr. the girls could do as well in music and miles ago a modest
were released with the fact that the girls had been competent introduced something
they were not involved in the symbolism they were involved this was a product of their
daughters and then they were caught between the militants in the community and their
daughters who wanted to the Lord wanted to keep that film the militants wanted to
destroy them the mothers were uncertain working with us but they they came
defending the right of their daughters to control the film and to maintain it and make a
decision where it would be home and how are we charging what happened then it was
the film shown in any place where we show the clinic really place and and maybe the
young man with this PhD on this with me he showed it a temple I'm sure to the
communication department partly because it was part of his research work but it was
never shown on the community we know how did that was never intended it was really
just the girls doing this for a little research project but wouldn't they be distributed and
we did do it with poor white girls and we didn't make less black agate as well that was
asked in or this was before the paraprofessional training but all the other four yeah and
so that the clinic then did not have a large black professional graph was mostly white
and we had people's was one of the black television and people that came it was a
community organizer and organizing community against us exactly that's what I
remember how patient you were with them and I was infuriating some of the insults
they were making about the clinic and the clinic is one of the few places doing anything
for them you know they like a neighbor of course the patient see was the product of the
wish to maintain this institution oh sure Wow that was partly responsible one of the
things it now you know is how much cool you need to eat if you are directing in
organizations is the accommodate and your comma dating your comedy oh it's been
easy just to get indignant throw the whole thing aside but that was a time when there
was trouble everywhere it's remarkable how the poor gone out of fashion now
anywhere yeah I mean you couldn't even get a grant now today before nobody would
be interested not probably you wouldn't be behind today one of the things I'm curious
about what do you think of the odds that the Philadelphia gigantically will subside back
into the way it was before you wanted to see what you see this is something that I think
I had seen in institutions you know I went to London to the Tavistock an institution that
had a glorious past of innovation and then it makes in and out and it becomes
traditional establishment not defending anything not creating new things just
maintaining itself so that we're not really at all concern for the survival of institutions
question is do these institutions develop to day export ideas you know do these ideas
become then spread in other places this is C N word is this it comes and that is
something that it's clear to me you know when you talk about do we have students that
transcend ourselves I really think yes you know but they're not in the form and in the
way in which we sometimes would like it you know so that looks true I think that most of
your ideas in family therapy have influenced other people that do it very differently to
me that is students they transcend you it may be they are discreet people or maybe
people that don't have much to do with you and take it and change it what I'm thinking
of is if that plates subsided back into a tradition of child psychiatry clinical it would be
because the larger system is more powerful than any individual to intervene to change
that I mean there's a large influence of child psychiatry generally on a clinic like that
were you working with children there's the influence in the hospital as the influence of a
having an inpatient unit that begins to determine a lot of decisions in general I think the
clinic will remain a family oriented clinic because it has developed a kind of an organic
cohesion the clinic Angeles hospital in which the research about family pediatrics
remains a very important to become part of a larger system yes this is a very important
contribution to the clinic and the Children's Hospital are continuing to do individual so
that an individual in which family medicine becomes an ally of a family therapy then I
think that this is a very you say if we are talking about where how will family therapy
spread in the medical profession and how will it change the way in which medicine is
being conducted it is through the alliance of family therapy and family medicine and
family pediatrics I think that this is a possible direction of change nurse with the
apartment of the deities not you Department of Psychiatry with su the Department of
Medicine and that's why I think that the particular work we said by Symantec is an
important world what I thought was a larger issue that if you wanted to change the way
therapy is you should go to the insurance company because they determine so much
about who's going to be a patient how long they between absolutely the entrance of for
change really depend very much on social funding and I think that's true of theories I
think a theory for private practice is necessarily a different theory than for an agency in
therapy I mean private practice having been it in myself I know that you you really need
to have a theory that therapy takes a long time that people have to be seen regularly
and that if you're working in an agency with a fast turnover and doing brief therapy you
really need it if it there it looks like in two or three different places of fondness to see
people once a month is about as effective of seeing once a week which was an
arbitrary selection to be in reality people once we and that begins to be a problem for
practice but if you can't be just as effective once one the degenerate additional model
has advantage that the therapist is being carried as an image with the family and it's
used in whatever way it is because it's there so that the advantage of the general
practitioner model is the sense of continuity even though you know you have brief
therapy should you have a sense of continuity the therapist is incorporated goals rules
epistemology a number of things come with symbols the therapist remains similar and I
think that this is useful base for people to sort of imply we don't get along in Africa
background well there's somebody out there but so good you know at implementing
almost anything and families are so pliable really I don't think on these resistance you
know I think families to whatever we tell them oh if we tell them whatever we say is the
appropriate thing to do they believe appropriately the division you know I think that let
me qualify that if we know how to do it you know yeah I think that it's true that when
you tell a family or a family member to do certain things they do it but one of the things
that people do not know is what are the steps by which you convince them to do that
but they are very pliable people are because I mean if you can get thousands and
thousands of people to lie on a couch and talk to some guy behind them year after year
and pay money again you can get people to 20-degree me as long as you presented
as this is a reasonable appropriate procedure that we have found to be the best one
and so on and I think a lot of people are able to do that yeah I remember one occasion
but father whose wife was in management summer in the entry adolescents suggested
someone in the room they called him names a team idiot before us and he said it was
all for his wife in the hospital and here in the room with me he said that the kids said
you can behave this way perhaps at home but here in this room yes you treat your
father the respect and you know it so I don't ever and those kids start the behavior
yeah and everyone at one point winded kids inside of the father the father said you
don't behave like that misery that struck me about it but you have absolute confidence
that if the kids we used to go over there you give the hell yeah in the atrium and are
clearly then what what I did not describe in any of my writings is the particular way in
which I feel I feel at which point I reach a threshold that I should not cross you know it
is this dependency on feedback that organizes my confidence I know that I'm
continuously reading these people which you answer that in de measure that the only
possible way for me to enter and work with violent people is if I know that they will not
develop a way to change so we have to have you read Texas a little but I've thought
about that I want you to learn and I've taught students when I came must be able to
say here our knowledge will be disrespectful twit mother I will speak about and what I
realized is that I have students do that who wouldn't know what to do if he didn't get
one provision because I don't they get the cooperation it gets Diana I'm impressed with
how much work we do teaching students to say their family how they like them to
behave because balance on the assumption families don't know how to behave in
there that I want you all take turns talking and I watch and have a reasonable
conversation and let's try to get an understanding of this problem and that family's
know that you don't want to have a fight or get all emotional or whatever they might
think you wanted before they're told but I think sunk yet so disrespectful to the parents
because they think that's what they're supposed to do in the room and just being told
Mountain they start the you know from when is the students don't know that it's
possible to do like you I remember Molly Bowen in an interview that he did in the clinic
and he would say to people I don't want you to feel I want you to tell me how you think
it was very direct about that and people they would stop saying I feel and people to do
say I think so the detective mess is something that it's very much part of the family
therapy way of dealing with people once it began to be accepted that the therapist
organizes the conversation and house can be conducted then it's only a power
teaching therapist how to do that but there's still a number of schools where they don't
assume that so therapists attributed there's more of an assumption that the therapist
has to go and respond with whatever the family brings and then they get into helter
skelter sort of session Timmons another difference with our approach and the melodic I
think one of the reasons the Milan group was popular is because many therapists are
afraid to go into a family alone they like company and they either like Co therapy or a
team and a Milan group offers a team so that you're with a group doing something and
the individual responsibility of the therapist feels less I think and I think that was made it
very popular in the policy space this list is in this class it's a big famous the support of
people well if we think of what we share an agreement if you contrast to others we
really put an emphasis on one therapist working alone I think we put an emphasis on
changing people within the interview as well as we're directors afterwards we don't
assume that people understand the problems and why they have a little change we
assume it's our obligation to change people that were not neutral observers of their
plight so there's a variety of issues I think we assume the IRA in the organization is
important and has to be dealt with we also need Wiese comfort with constructing
realities and assuming that the reality is a perspective and therefore we deal with
partial reality that sometimes we called word manipulation of realities but I prefer much
more because it departs in reality it is true for anybody certainly I'm on the episode on
how every memory of the past is a reconstruction and those are valuable so that
people can have better past and they're now suffering with so you can do the same
thing with the present and so they are expensive we become experts in constructing for
people a reality that is useful right kind of identity or like Eric's on providing people we
sit past that they did not have we provide a kind of M plausible coherent reality portray
we were able to go over here and I think that it is there that our artistry the individual
artists we set up this tent is because you need to provide the reality this convincing you
cannot just give it a reality a toilet so it is how one weaves their language their
metaphor the past the orientation to what the future ignore the way we provide we say
coherent and full possibility that people buy in between by us as a significant tool
without thinking that this is the total reality of the family I gave you an example we have
a few weeks ago of this there was a young woman a director who's 29 just turning 30
and has been anorectic all life and the therapist Marty Ortiz began to emphasize the
third in the age of 30 is such a threshold in a moment why that everything that number
four is different from what happens from the age of 30 on but at the time she had
discussed this this woman was becoming 30 and in the 20 she was in a directly in the
30 she had to be concerned about having children getting it periods back developing
yourself in her in her life in her career which is so different to her you too but actually
she was doing exactly the same thing with all that was being reframed restructured and
in a way was perfectly true the woman was a turian 32 and you know that when I work
on that things Prince's developing Lydia 30 is a metaphor that I will build creating
density and so on the wonderful thing that happened to me is there anything that is
thought it becomes kind of hooked into that constitute and so what is that method is it I
don't hear many other thing that gives me a tremendous freedom you know I asked
myself that once I have a metapod this metaphor will guide me and you have to have
that confidence in you in your own judgment at trial you know one of the things I think
that was the worst aspect of training 20 years ago was everybody was taught to
mistrust themselves that they had an unconscious full of unfortunate hostile things and
they should watch out for it and then to be put into the patient where you have to trust
your own judgment your own ideas your own impulses I think it made it very difficult for
you but I think that miss was related to this search for the true static system and and
we accepted it it's a very different view of people should any of the therapies because
then Iran we need to accept the fact that the therapist is that using is artistic his poetic
method once we are not at all involved in a scientific process that I don t know certainly
an artistic process I remember how impressed I was when I saw that Erikson's in in a
video day and for the first time I heard his language us a very poetic language I I never
had realized his language had such a poetic force that's because they use metaphors
oh yeah such a complex but you see in the reading at a didn't remodelers it came at us
and I said to myself if I would be in contact with this benign old uncle that has such
penchant for poetic metaphors I've tried to go into this world that he meant for me
which certainly an artistic process and it's one more area if we could learn how to teach
it that's the hardest thing to teach us the therapists to be artistic and innovative you
could teach the procedures well in that you see we had a difference in our training
anyway which we were painting because there was a time in which I thought I could
teach it see and and I remember my entering into the room and trying to teach people
this was the period of the alphabet of skills through you know in which there was an
alphabet and if people could learn this alphabet then they could really create the epics
and the rhapsodies and everything and we used to teach that is to hamath people with
this applet see that you have been very different approaching that I think that they need
be and in which the air repeating which I was teaching I was using myself as a model
and at this point I absolutely changed I really and paying much more attention to the
therapy style than I did before you pay attention to the therapy style much from the
beginning partly because I was I wasn't doing it myself so I didn't use myself as a
model may be a part of why it would but you know that was also I always felt you had
to teach a fault you know it's like acting in a way that you can teach an actor how to
walk across the stage and how to say his lines and he can do that and get by but he
hasn't really created anything of the park but if he if you're given the basics and he has
any potential then he'll develop it but if you know give him the basics then he can't
develop the potential because he doesn't have the basic structure to work from and it
may be the sum of this is is something that people come with to be given maybe
remember how Bravo used to when we were training the people from the community
and we had to win an hour's interview judge whether to put $100,000 under this person
in the train and the years work we would try to figure out how to be on an interview with
these people this person become a good therapist and I remember Bradley didn't test
that he did he would say to the person suppose you have a woman come in whose son
is a bed-wetter and you talk to her much of her life and so on and you find out that the
that someone in the family has a motorcycle that has a leak in the gas tank how would
you make use of that that there another word and he was in to see whether they would
put together the better letting in the gas bag and what they would go up with in solving
that leak and even if they could connected at all really you had a chance if they said
Allah know what a long sigh then they would be into a different payment but it may be
that some people have that ability remember those are the ones we should select or
maybe it can be taught at Kunsan I had known that the only people who I served the
tight I thought they could select wealthy people it that I liked you know we could give
over the preview not many we really cannot use that one continues at eye level
operation claim the decent I don't accept anybody that is only private practice to
reproduce is absolutely and that happened to me without thinking I began to realize
that I am interested in not complaining funny therapist but in changing the field and
really what I want to do with the training is not to turn communist-era me but to change
the field therefore the Turk should be blue Josephine I would you know I had always
think this is one of my most sympathy cooks kind of things I interview and I think that
but you know it's also part of my pessimism I am concerned about the fact that after 30
years of being interviewed what we had succeeded is in training comedy therapies and
in North in changing institutions and the question is can we or maybe we can't you
know I think that one of the issues that I have been concerned and talking with people
is listen the field have been successful in creating its demise because in New York that
is a security law and when I leave you know the people in power remain people
unaffected by any epidemiological changes so too much Lancers but the traditional
way is entrenched in the larger it's almost impossible achieve you know establishment
and establish institutions and the fence of the establish institutions that me pretty much
a geography will accompany but if you take New York Chicago they are that is almost
no influence of family therapy in New York there's what thousands of therapists you
think there'd be 50 here family Institute's there yeah and one that you take their be 50
behavior Institute cetera so um you know because it is intelligibility country were for me
therapy has drastic more easily and had expanded more powerful him is literally this
truth how did it go there if you because it was supported by two important political
movement the Communist Party and the Catholic Church Father who came together
with me in one and because therapy us providing therapy for paper was not
established and there was just impatient biological very Biological Psychiatry psychiatry
and second Alice's for a very very small group of people have no power in this vacuum
then Express see one need to change so many things I remember in every tournament
can create well how they could jump from Biological Psychiatry to a family therapy
without having to go through the whole struggle with psychodynamic ideas and so on
because they just wait Victor yeah it was a closer I think we simple let's take a break
room and get some coffee but they're going to Train and it
JH: Uma vez que você é estrutural e pode falar sobre muitas das escolhas
JH: foi extraordinário .
JH: Eu t era um exc -lo i ng lugar , você sabe
SM: sim foi , foi
SM: bem, para mim, foi o tipo de coisa que fizemos quando Kennedy foi
baleado . que foi, então, um foi para as escolas e conversamos para ver as
crianças , nossa difusa e assim por diante . por isso , parecia natural que se deve
fazer isso .