AFGHAN HEALTH LEADERSHIP CONSORTIUM (AHLC) MEETING

Afghan Coalition – May 3, 2022

Meeting Transcript on “Legal Challenges of Afghans”

ZOOM ATTENDANCE: 59 people

TRANSCRIPT:

Dr. Valerie Smith: Hi everyone, welcome to the Afghan Health Leadership Consortium
meeting. It is May 3rd, 2022. Many of us have had quite a journey since August 15th. We're
standing shoulder to shoulder with each other in this important work for Afghans during this
crisis. We appreciate you if this is your first time here, or if you've been here many times or
somewhere in between. We're looking forward to a special time together. It's really great to see
you. We'll plan to meet until about 1:30 pm, and then if you want to stay after, we can have a
more informal discussion until 1:45 pm or 2:00 pm, so that's optional. The official meeting will
end at 1:30 pm. Please know that this meeting is being recorded, and it will be shared with the
Afghan Health Leadership Consortium list. If you are attending today, you will get a recording
of the meeting. Also, please stay on mute and hold your questions until the end. We'll have
plenty of time for questions and answers, and I will take them in the chat box at that time.

Putting information into the chat. Ì'm Dr. Valerie Smith. I've been leading the Afghan Health
Consortium since 2006. Time really flies. I can't believe it's been that long. As part of the Afghan
Coalition, we also want to know who you are, so let's take a moment to put your name, your
organization, and your role, if any, into the chat. Let's just take a moment for that. Also, if you
have any announcements, because of the time considerations, we're not going to take verbal
announcements, but you can put your Afghan-related announcements into the chat as well.
Name, role, and organization, if any, and then any Afghan-related announcements. Thank you
very much.

Valerie: While you're putting your information into the chat, I want to give you a brief overview
of the Afghan Coalition, and then we'll get right into our panel today.

The Afghan Coalition is a non-profit community-based organization in Fremont,

California, the San Francisco East Bay, seeking to empower refugee families, women,
and youth to be self-sufficient. The Afghan Coalition has been serving the Afghan
community for more than 25 years, and it's directed by Rona Popal, the Executive
Director, and has a wonderful staff. Everybody has been stepping up especially hard
since August 15th.

The Afghan Health Leadership Consortium, the meeting you're joining now, is a
program of the Afghan Coalition. We hold quarterly meetings like this one to offer
training and education and collaboration for providers to the Afghan community. Not
only do we have the training, but you get to meet each other and connect. Thank you
for that. Thank you to Alameda County Behavioral Health for funding this program.

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The orientation and training today is specifically for providers, which can be paid
providers or volunteers to the Afghan community and other refugee communities, but it
is not for Afghan clients to ask specific Afghan client-related questions. We have
spaces for that, and we'd be happy to answer questions or direct anyone to where they
could go for that. If you are an Afghan who is not a provider, you are still welcome to
be a guest at our meeting. We're very happy to have you. We just want to honor you
and thank you for being here.

Announcing the panelists. A lot of different comments have come into the chat in terms
of who you are, and others will be joining us as we go. I just want to go ahead and jump
right into our program. We have an expert immigration attorney panel with us today.
The three panelists today are Kyra Lilien, Paris Etemadi Scott and Spojmie Nasiri.

General background on panelists. These amazing women—and there's many amazing

men as well who have been working on this cause—the three amazing women we have
today, I have been so honored to get to know and work side by side in some capacities
at least over these months. They want to bring for you today, really spotlight and focus
on, the issues and challenges facing Afghans still in Afghanistan and Afghans here who
are new arrivals into the US, given everything that we've seen. I will introduce one
panelist at a time, and we're going to start with Kyra.

Introducing Kyra Lilien: Kyra Lilien joined Jewish Family and Community Services
East Bay, also known as JFCS East Bay, in July 2021, and serves as its Director of
Immigration Legal Services. Her varied career in immigration law spans more than 20
years. Kyra graduated from law school after many years of work as an Immigration
Paralegal in both non-profit and private law office settings. As an Associate Attorney at
Kirkland & Ellis LLP, she led multiple pro bono removal defense cases and ultimately
helped run the firm's pro bono program. She became the Director of the Immigration
Services program at Centro Legal de la Raza, where she represented individuals before
the US Citizenship and Immigration Services, the Immigration Court, and the Board of
Immigration Appeal.

Kyra's experience is extensive. She has a lot of immigration experience that she brings
while managing and supervising a team of immigration attorneys and paralegals. It
doesn't stop there. Kyra served as the Asylum Officer at the USCIS [United States
Citizenship and Immigration Services] asylum office in San Francisco, where she
specialized in un-accompanying minors claims and trained new asylum officers, and as
a staff attorney at the US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, where she worked on
immigration-related petitions for review. Kyra has also worked on human rights and
refugee issues in Sierra Leone, Albania, and Mexico.

Kyra also has a deep educational background. During and after law school, Kyra
worked with the UC Berkeley War Crimes Studies Center and with UC Berkeley
Human Rights Center to examine process for witness and victim protection at the
International Criminal Court in the Hague and the Special Court for Sierra Leone in
Freetown. Kyra received her Juris Doctor from UC Berkeley School of Law and her

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 Bachelor of Arts from Smith College. Let's do a Zoom welcome for Kyra, and that
would be emoticons or hand claps with a video or just knowing that you're giving her a
warm welcome. Kyra, please.

Kyra Lilien: Valerie, that is the warmest welcome ever. That was a very long description of my
bio, and now every single one of you knows every single thing about me. [laughs]

Valerie: It was incredibly impressive. I didn't want to cut anything out, but yes.

Kyra: Valerie, thank you so much. I'm really pleased to be here today with all of you and
especially with Valerie who has just been a stalwart leader in all of the organizing
around this Afghan crisis and with my co-panelists today who are tremendous
superstars. You'll hear more about them and from them in a minute. I'm just going to
start us off by giving you an overview of what we intend to talk about today, and start
that with just a little bit of background, and just hopefully provide a little bit of framing
for our discussion.

Taliban Take Kabul and US-led Evacuations in August 2021. We're starting by going
back to mid-August 2021 when the Taliban is advancing throughout Afghanistan and
eventually took over Kabul. The US government was endeavoring in a very hurried and
post hoc way to evacuate as many people as possible from Afghanistan in the few
weeks that remained. In total, the government reports that it evacuated 120,000 people
by airplane by August 31, 2021. That number of evacuees included US citizens, it also
included citizens of other ally countries, and it included a large number of Afghan
nationals and Afghan citizens who would've been at risk had they remained in
Afghanistan.

Afghan evacuation and resettlement numbers. Of that number of 120,000 people who
were evacuated, close to 75,000 are Afghan evacuees who have eventually been
resettled or are being resettled in US communities across the country. There are more
than 100,000 people that we know of who are still in Afghanistan and are still in need
of evacuation. The number is probably far greater than that. That number comes from
the total of pending SIV (Special Immigrant Visa) applications for people still in
Afghanistan which is about 62,000 and pending humanitarian parole applications for
people who are still either in Afghanistan or in a third country overseas still in danger.
That number according to the US government is upward of 46,000 pending
applications. One thing I just want to clarify for everybody before we move forward is
that when we're talking about parolees from Afghanistan, they are differently situated
than refugees in the legal sense.

What it means to be a refugee. We often talk about refugees in the colloquial sense of
people who are fleeing danger, or in need of protection, or in need of shelter, in need of
refuge. We are operating within a legal definition of refugee, which is initially
determined by an international instrument, the refugee convention. Then that
international definition has been interpreted through US domestic law under the
Refugee Act. We have a very technical specific definition of what it is to be a refugee

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 in the United States. The way most Afghan evacuees were entered, the United States
was with port parole, or parole under --Some of you have heard of Operation Allies
Rescue or Operation Allies Welcome. The people who were paroled into the United
States, do not technically have refugee status. That's a lot of what we'll talk about
today: Spojmie is intending to discuss this. As a result of this, there is an unusual
status held by a large population of people arriving all at once. This was all very
unprecedented for the refugee resettlement community. I'm here today as an
Immigration Attorney talking about legal services, but JFCS East Bay is also a
resettlement agency.

Resettlement assistance. My colleague runs our resettlement program, at JFCS East

Bay, and would have a lot more to say about that, but that's not what I'll focus on today.
Other than to tell you that in the early days following the evacuation Afghan parolees
arriving in the United States were in limbo, and they were stuck because it took the US
government some time to figure out that it needed to create programs to give these
people, at least some of the protections that a refugee would normally have, some basic
benefits: The ability to work, the ability to receive resettlement assistance from the
resettlement agencies, because that's all federally driven, that's driven by our federal
government. There was a big gap in services shortly after people arrived in the United
States. That was a really difficult time, for our new Afghan neighbors who were
scooped up, brought here, and then dropped with little to no support, other than what
the community afforded.

Goals for the presentation. Our goals for the presentation today first are, to talk about--
• Paris will talk a little bit about, the ongoing Afghan crisis, the crisis in Afghanistan,
and what's happening, with all of the hundreds of thousands of people who didn't
make it onto US evacuation flights.
• Then we'll talk about, the parolees, new arrivals, to the United States from
Afghanistan.
• Especially we will explain what options and avenues are available for these folks.

A general orientation, not teaching legal advice. One key thing that we all really want
you, as Afghan serving practitioners, to understand is that this is not training to teach
you how to give legal advice. That would be illegal, and that's the unlawful practice of
law. What really, what we're doing today is we want to just give you general
orientation, so that you have your bearings, and you can understand the landscape of
what your Afghan clients are facing, and what might be available to them. It would not
be appropriate for anyone who is not a qualified, licensed legal representative to give
any legal advice. Instead, what you can do is you can refer people to one of the
immigration legal service providing agencies that we'll talk about today, so that they
can receive a full legal consultation, and complete legal advice from, a certified
licensed practitioner. That's our plan.

Valerie: Thank you, Kyra, thank you for that introduction to what we're doing today, so well

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 said. The legal advice and orientation is something that may be murky in the
background for many people, and they've been so busy with their hands-on direct
services or planning that they haven't had the opportunity.

Too little information in the news about Afghans in danger of Taliban retribution who
remain in Afghanistan. We're really glad everybody's here today, to either get that
orientation, or get an update. Really appreciated the numbers that you brought out as
well, Kyra, that we've--It's disappeared from the news that the thousands and tens of
thousands, and hundreds of thousands of Afghans in need, in Afghanistan. We're going
to bring that front and center today.

Introducing Paris Etemadi Scott: It is my deep, my deep honor and pleasure to

introduce to you this amazing individual, Paris Etemadi Scott, and she serves as the
Legal Director of PARS Equality Center in San Jose. She has over 11 years of
experience as an attorney with a focus on immigration law and international human
rights.

Paris’ family immigration experience. Before joining PARS Equality Center, Paris
worked as an immigration attorney at the law offices of Daniel Sheffield Immigration
Defense PC, where she managed extensive family immigration and complex removal
defense cases. Her focus on human rights law expanded to the Asian continent where
she worked with refugees at a Christian action NGO in Hong Kong, representing
refugees in the resettlement claims before the United Nations High Commissioner for
Refugees, also known as the UNHCR.

International experience. Paris has a lot of international experience. Her passion for
litigation and advocacy was fueled by a full-time externship at the US District Court of
Northern California. Paris is a graduate of Golden Gate University, School of Law, JD
with honors, and the University of Maryland with BS honors in computer science. Let's
also give a very warm welcome to Paris Etemadi Scott.

Paris Etemadi Scott: Thank you so much, Valerie. Again, like Kyra mentioned, I'm honored to
be introduced in this way, and to be in amazing company with Kyra and Spojmie, and
you of course. Valerie, you've done so much ever since August. I don't know how many
emails we've exchanged or text messages, but you've been on. I don't know if you've
had any weekends to yourself, but it's just been, you've been an amazing support to us
and to the new arrivals.

Understanding humanitarian parole (HP). I believe what I'm mentioning here in terms
of, relief available for those still in Afghanistan, and those who are new arrivals here, to
just distinguish what we're talking about, because a lot of people hear humanitarian
parole and they're not quite sure whether this applies to people who have already been
paroled into the United States. All Afghan parolees are humanitarian parolees, but how
they received this status differs.

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 Initial group of evacuees “port paroled” into the US. Initially when the Taliban
took over Afghanistan on August 15, 2021, the US frantically evacuated a lot of US
citizens and US lawful permanent residents in Afghanistan, as well as high-risk
individuals. They received humanitarian parole status without having to file a
humanitarian parole application. They were paroled in what we call, they were “port
paroled.” They were just paroled at the port of entry, generally in Washington DC or
Philadelphia. The vast majority came through with US flights and were port paroled.

Most Afghans remaining in Afghanistan file for humanitarian parole. However, as

Kyra mentioned there are over 120,000 people still in Afghanistan needing evacuation,
absent any effort from the government, the only available option is that humanitarian
parole application. A lot of the new arrivals here want to bring their family members
over, and because there are no flights out, the last flight was at the end of August of
2021 by the US government, we have no other recourse but to file humanitarian parole.
Now, the government, again maybe you've heard it in the news, but these humanitarian
parole applications, they are very complex.

HP applications, details. They require a lot of evidence and they're

expensive. They cost $575 per application. Initially when in August of 2021
PARS Equality Center and partners set up this HP support group online to
try to file as many humanitarian parole applications for those still in
Afghanistan. Together with attorney volunteers from all over the United
States, we filed thousands of HP applications. Sadly, those applications are
either still pending or denied. We're talking, about eight months, nine
months now from the first date we started filing. Maybe a few of them have
conditional approvals. I think the latest news that came out was something
like out of thousands and thousands, we're talking about, again, close to
50,000 humanitarian parole applications being filed, the USCIS [United
States Citizenship and Immigration Services] has only processed 2,600 of
them out of close to 50,000 applications, and keep in mind that these are
expedited applications. Generally, humanitarian parole applications should
be processed within 90 days. That is the guidance, but we're talking so many
months after the filing, out of those 2,600 were processed, and 2,250 were
denied.

Damaging impact on people still in Afghanistan. You can just see the impact on those
still in Afghanistan, and the immediate relatives who are here who have been
evacuated, or who have been here before and trying to get their family members out.
It's a very, very difficult situation, and we have no other recourse but this flawed
humanitarian parole application, and the excessive processing times, and extreme
scrutiny by the USCIS in adjudicating these applications. We're trying to advocate for a
parole program, similar to what the government has just announced for Ukrainians.

Comparing difficult Afghan parole process with simple Ukrainian parole process.
Whatever shape they want to do it, they have to change the process, and try to bring
this, a mass parole program rather than case by case, I-131 $575 program. I'm just

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going to give you an example of what's happening with Ukrainian citizens. The US
government has announced a parole program for Ukrainian citizens that does not
require the filing of a humanitarian parole application, does not require the filing fee of
$575. It's a very simple, straightforward process, in fact, we just filed one, and it's a
very simple form, and they processed that form in five days. They did the background
check for the financial sponsor in five days, and they would follow up with an email to
the person, to the Ukrainian individual who wants to be paroled within the next couple
of weeks.

Afghan arrivals in US who were port paroled only have temporary status. All that
is streamlined, and so we've been trying to advocate for a similar program for the
Afghan individuals in Afghanistan, and so far it hasn't gone anywhere, but we're still
trying with partner agencies like Human Rights First. In terms of relief for Afghans
who have been paroled—again, Kyra mentioned that even though they do receive
refugee resettlement benefits, they are not refugee as that term is defined in
immigration law. They do need to file for a certain kind of relief to obtain lawful
permanent resident status in the United States. Unfortunately, not all of them know
that's the situation, that they're not here permanently, they believe they've been
evacuated and therefore they're going to be here permanently, and they can work
permanently. There's a lot of Know Your Rights programs that we're conducting to
let the new arrivals know that their status is not a refugee status, that they don't
have a permanent status.

Relatives or SIV status can be alternative paths to immigration aid. That this parole
status either expires in one year or generally it's two years, but some of them have been
granted just the one-year parole. They do have to file for certain relief in order to be
able to stay here permanently, and that would be a green card through their
immediate relative who may be here as a US citizen (such as a US citizen spouse or
maybe a US citizen adult child of over 21 years old). That could be a path to a green
card if they do have that immediate relative here, but most of them don't have that
option, and therefore they have to look at other relief. Another relief is SIV, that stands
for a Special Immigrant Visa. A Special Immigrant Visa is granted to Afghan
nationals who worked for or on behalf of the US government, or who were interpreters
or translators at the international security assistance force, ISF, or its successor mission.

Difficulties, such as long wait times for SIV applicants. Again most of the SIV
applicants are also waiting for paperwork to be processed, they're waiting for certain
approvals, and they're running out of that time that they're here legally, either one year
or two years, getting close to that one-year mark.

Filing for asylum. The fallback for most of the new arrivals is filing for asylum,
and the asylum application for Afghans is not an easy process, Kyra is an ex-asylum
officer. I was in front of one yesterday with an Afghan client. It's tough, we were there
for many hours, we had prepared the case thoroughly, and yet I don't know if this
person could have done it without an attorney representation. It was actually a very

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 strong case, but unfortunately, not everybody who was paroled into the United States
has a strong asylum case.

Temporary Protective Status (TPS). Another fallback would be a temporary protective

status. I'm sorry, I'm throwing all these legal terms to you, and you may have so many
questions, but I think the purpose of this, TPS, or Temporary Protective Status is for
people who don't qualify for a green card through their immediate relatives, a special
immigrant visa or asylum, there's always a temporary protective status that the
government announced recently, because they realized that the new arrivals don't
necessarily qualify for all these, the three reliefs that I just mentioned, and they can't
really go back to Afghanistan after being brought into the country by US forces. They
have announced that TPS, temporary protective status is going to be granted once it's
properly announced to the Afghan nationals who've been residing in the United States
as of March 15, 2022.

TPS is only temporary. It’s not going to end up giving them a green card, that is
just going to be an initial 18-month protective status that allows them to continue
working and remaining in the United States. Again, long story short, different reliefs
for different folks, those who are already paroled in, or those who are still in
Afghanistan, and the complexity of it all, and knowing that Afghan new arrivals
really need an assistance of a legal representative to be able to figure out what
relief they're eligible for, and when to file it. It is important and I think at the end,
we'll talk about referrals, and how you can refer Afghans to certain organizations who
can help them, but everybody, all these organizations are overwhelmed, and we have
waitlists, for example, at PARS we have waitlists for asylum filing. It is a crisis, and
there's need for more resources to assist with the immigration cases of new arrivals.
Valerie, I was supposed to say more or is that--?

Valerie: I think we're good. I think that works well. Thank you very much. Just want to honor
Paris again in her work, all of the panelists today, but she has been front and center for
national efforts leading and organizing in terms of helping Afghans still in Afghanistan
file for humanitarian parole. As you heard, it's not going much of anywhere, we'll have
plenty of time for questions afterward, so if you do have a burning question that you
need to ask, please just jot it down, and then we'll have time for the questions.

Introducing Spojmie Ahmady Nasiri: It is my delight to introduce our third and final
panelist today, and that is Spojmie Ahmady Nasiri, and she is a first-generation
immigrant, and the founder and Principal Attorney at the Law Offices of Spojmie
Nasiri, PC in Pleasant in California. Spojmie is a member of the California Bar and is
admitted to the Northern District of California. She has been practicing immigration
law for more than 10 years, and focuses on family-based immigration, including U
visas, T visas, VAWA, 601A waivers as well as consular processing and deportation
defense cases. She has been recognized for her dedication and commitment to the
immigrant community by her peers and community leaders. In 2019, Spojmie was
selected to the Alameda County Women’s Hall of Fame for the Justice award.

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 Spojmie has served in many different capacities. Spojmie currently serves on the board
of Afghan American Community Organization dedicated to serving the Afghan
community and board member of International Orphan Care (IOC) dedicated to helping
orphans in Afghanistan. She has served as board President of Council on American
Relations (CAIR) for the San Francisco Bay Area Chapter protecting the civil rights of
Muslim Americans. She is currently part of AILA’s Afghan Taskforce addressing the
legal needs of Afghan evacuees. Spojmie is fluent in Pashto and Dari. She has spoken
at numerous AILA conferences and other conferences locally and nationally on
immigration law. She's also done work at the military bases as a legal representative for
Afghans there, and we have so much to learn from her, and I would just ask for
everybody's appreciation of Spojmie for being here today, especially because she is not
feeling well, and will need to have her camera off because of it, but it is still our
delight, because of the technology of Zoom that you can still show up when not feeling
well. We're very grateful to you, Spojmie. Thank you.

Spojmie Nasiri: Thank you so much, Valerie and my co-panelists. I'm going to keep it
short. Eid Mubarak to everybody who celebrated yesterday. I'm wheezing a little bit, I
tested positive for COVID yesterday morning at 5:00 am. For all of you who are
celebrating Eid, I hope you had a wonderful Eid. It ruined it for me, so I've been
quarantining in my room. I'm honored to serve along my panelists, and I knew that it
was very important. There's so much information that our community, Afghan
American community, and everyone else that's been on the forefront of serving
Afghans since the crisis.

The Afghan community is pulling together. As a whole community we're coming

together to do so much and so many people have done so much, and at the same time so
much more needs to be done. I'm honored to join my co-panelists today. If you can just
close your eyes for like 20 seconds and imagine August 15, Kabul fell. I have hundreds
of Afghan clients, along with Paris and Kyra, that we’ve had been helping. Since there's
a time difference, I was up all night trying to evacuate my clients from Afghanistan.
Being an immigration attorney, doesn't prepare you for the emotional trauma that you
experience along with your clients.

Very emotionally challenging work. Telling my clients to go from one gate to another
gate, to witness the suicide bombings, and get videos of blood and children death. It
just took such a toll on all of us that we're doing this day in day out, trying to get our
clients. I think that more than anything, it didn't really have much to do with, at least I
speak for myself, getting my clients out, I was able to get maybe about a half a dozen or
more out of Afghanistan, and the rest of them are all still there. To have that
responsibility and to say, "Go to this gate, go here." I didn't want in all honesty to say
that I didn't want to be responsible for someone's life and death, but at the same time we
had to make these decisions.

Some of the complexities involved in helping clients evacuate. In all honestly, nobody
really knew what was going on. Just imagine going from that chaos at the airport, then

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what happens is to go to the “lily pads,” which were about seven or eight military bases
in Germany, Qatar and other locations where the Afghani evacuates were taken.

Many countries besides US involved. Now, keep in mind not everybody was
evacuated by the United States. I had clients who were evacuated by the United Nations
planes and other planes that ended up in Sweden and in other countries.

Struggle to get to the US. Then I had to do the struggle of getting them here to the
United States. A lot of people after the fall of Kabul, with the last flight leaving were
thinking that if they took a charter plane outside of Afghanistan and got to Albania,
Kosovo and other countries that they would have a ticket to the US, and as my co-
panelists can echo that, unfortunately that's not the case. People may have paid
hundreds and thousands of dollars to get on a charter plane and end up in Kosovo,
Albanian, Qatar and now they're in refugee cities. They don't have the authority to
come to the United States.

From “lily pads” to US military bases. If you're wondering about what happened
to all these people, they went to lily pads (staging bases for further processing of
Afghan allies). From the lily pads then the Afghans were taken to about eight US
military bases, which were in Virginia, Wisconsin, Texas, New Mexico, New Jersey,
all those locations. When I first started wanting to go to these military bases, I didn't
have an end game, but I felt as an Afghan American, as a refugee of the 1980s, as an
immigration lawyer, and as someone who spoke both Pashto and Dari fluently, I felt
that my personal moral duty was that I go.

Housing for Afghans on the military base bases was sometimes very substandard.
Again, I went from the military bases to places in Virginia where they were in five star
hotels to go to a location called Quantico, where they're in the middle of the forest with
massive tents, and the rooms that were set up literally like bedsheets that make quarter
by quarter. I remember going to one base, I was told it was in Texas, I get there and I'm
like, "Okay, well the base is here, my hotel is here, I don't have to drive." Next day I'm
driving and I'm in the middle of the desert in New Mexico.

In New Mexico, even sandstorms took a toll. I call a colleague and I said, "Hey, how
come I'm going to New Mexico in the desert?" I find out that the military base that they
had, which was one of the worst run bases, which is why they closed it down fairly
quickly with sandstorms, dust storms in the middle of desert. For me as an Afghan
every time, I think it just as a human being, and let me take that back, not as an Afghan,
maybe just as a person, it emotionally took a toll and going from one base to another
and just seeing the people's stories took a toll.

Emergency evacuations often split families. I remember families are torn, the theme
that I saw was that people were evacuated in a chaotic and a dangerous situation where
their families were separated in stampede. The other idea was that maybe if one family
member got here, then the rest of them would all get here. That wasn't necessarily the

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the path. I know personally myself, I came here in the '80s and I was separated from my
own mom for about seven years. I was about five or six.

Working with split families is emotionally difficult. Having these conversations with
these people to say, "No there's no US military plane going to go get your family, your
wife, your children, your spouse to bring them in. It's going to take time." I remember
one gentleman grabbed his daughter by the arm and said, "What am I going to do with
her?" I said, "Oh no, uncle what's going on?" He said, "My wife and everyone was
separated, I just have her, and I need her mother, and I need the other children." I have
to sit there and explain.

Large problems due to overwhelmed assistance services. They were processing the
work permits, they were doing medical examinations, they were doing security
clearances. Even up to now with the resettlement agencies over inundated, people are
still struggling to get their work permits to be able to work, now that the families are all
off the bases as of about February 15th (when the last military base in Fort Dix, in New
Jersey closed the door).

Relocated Afghans need to make plans for their futures in the US. What I saw from
base to base depended on the services that were provided. The majority of the Afghans
did not get the legal services, just basic understanding of what their status was. As Paris
and Kyra have mentioned already, these Afghans were paroled in under Operation
Allies Welcome, and they have status for two years. In that process, within that two
years they must figure out what they're going to be doing and in the pathway for most
of them is either SIV, the Special Immigrant Visa, or asylum.

Challenges with the Special Immigrant Visa (SIV). The challenges I saw in the military
base is this, even if you're not familiar with SIV, what it means the bottom line is they
have to get a human resources department letter from the people that they worked for,
which is finding a needle in a haystack for many, or also doing the commission
approval. The commission is a Chief of Mission (COM) approval letter.

Challenges with the asylum process. Then the backside for these people is that they
have to apply for asylum. For asylum the process is not streamlined. We would
think that these were Afghans—who gave 20 years of their lives, blood and family
and everything—that their process would be easier. As Paris just mentioned and in
other locations like Boston, the interviews are taking eight to 10 hours to have these
asylum interviews.

Challenges with temporary protective status (TPS). The processes have not been made
easy, and I know it's not my topic to talk about, but I'm going to talk about just an
example. The temporary protective status that has been given out. The temporary
protective status was rolled out for Afghans, we're waiting for the federal registry to be
released so that Afghans can apply for TPS.

11
 More on the Special Immigrant Visa (SIV). I've done many cases where somebody was
evacuated, but they were married to a US citizen, or they were married to a green
cardholder. Very few people, they can go ahead and apply for adjustment of status.
Again, the SIV depending on where they are in the process, they can continue the rest
of the process on the military bases. I saw a lot of people who had finished the whole
process, but they were just waiting either for the medical examination, or they were
waiting for the interview. They can go ahead and do the process here in the US.
Then the fall back is for those who are rightfully eligible for SIV, but cannot get the
requirements met so they can go ahead.

More on the asylum, TPS. The second choice would be the asylum process. Now,
temporary protective status gives you about 18 months or so that would give you
protection. When Afghans call me or a community leader desk, where my client has
parolee status for two years and can get the public benefits that go with it, they ask why
should they apply for TPS? The reason that they should and we would highly
recommend it, and I'm sure my co-panels will agree, is that TPS will continue their
status until there's a decision made.

TPS can allow benefits to be kept. If the two years are up, and they have not been able
to get a work permit, and TPS will allow them to get a work permit, and it will allow
them to continue to renew the TPS. Sometimes if you have TPS status that might lead
to keeping access to some benefits, for instance. If you already have parolee status, and
then you are able to get TPS, your public benefits will not be lost. It will not affect it.
The consensus is that people should continue to apply for TPS once the federal
registry is out, and that would help them in the long run.

Being straightforward about Afghan vs. Ukrainian disparities. For instance. it might
help them with what Paris mentioned, the injustices and the disparity in this
government towards the humanitarian parole for Afghans versus the Ukrainians. Now
again, I'll say it right out, I'm not pitting Ukrainians against Afghans. I have Ukrainian
clients that I'm helping right now trying to do the I-134, which has been streamlined.
What my anger and my injustice is towards is that this government, I personally feel
along with many of my colleagues, that this government higher up has said that
humanitarian parole should not be granted for Afghans. I'll say that rightfully publicly,
anywhere.

Problems still remain with humanitarian parole (HP). We have not seen any
humanitarian parolees, and we should continue to advocate because thousands of
Afghans still remain inside Afghanistan. The disheartening thing is that they told us if
your Afghan client can get to a third country, then we will continue the HP. Well, then
when they got to the third country, they said, "Oh, but you're safe from the Taliban,
therefore you don't need HP." I said, 'catch 22.' So I'm sorry. I took so much time and
I'm wheezing. I hope that some of that made sense, I'll go forward and pass it on to
Kyra.

Valerie: I think Paris is also going to jump in. Spojmie, thank you so much for joining us and

12
 bringing these important examples. We are really with you in all of this, we're going to
hold the questions until the end. Thank you for your understanding. Paris?

Paris Etemadi Scott: Yes. Valerie, would you like me to explain?

Valerie: The immigration. Did she cover? I think the family-based SIV, or are we going to
Kyra now?

Spojmie: Sorry, Paris, I'm trying to keep together. Did I just step over what you were supposed
to do? I apologize.

Paris: Spojmie did a great job explaining. I also mentioned the different types of relief available.
At the end of the day, just as a recap of what I said, and what Spojme mentioned.

Summary comments, benefit of having US relatives, SIVs, green cards and HR letters.
First, if a person has immediate relatives here who are US citizens, or in the case of a
spouse, lawful permanent residents, they can apply for a green card as parolees or SIV
if they have an underlying special immigrant visa case. Again, those are taking a very
long time and as Spojme said, sometimes finding those HR letters of recommendation,
letters are finding a needle in a haystack, but still we do have some SIV applicants who
have received underlying approvals, and they can go ahead and file for their green card.

Asylum as a fall back. Finally, the fall back is asylum. Asylum is extremely hard to
present to the asylum officer, and making sure that the story is credible. Again there are
a lot of issues with regards to perhaps a terrorism related ground of inadmissibility.
They're scrutinizing all the applicants from Afghanistan to make sure that they don't
have any ties to the Taliban, or to ISIS K, or to other even AF Afghan special forces,
local police forces that may have also caused harm to others. There are a lot of issues,
very complex issues, in filing the asylum claim and really difficult.

Some places to look for help; the shortage of lawyers. Definitely recommended to have
an attorney represent folks, but in regards to the numbers are in thousands. It's very
hard for new arrivals to find legal representation, and that's the dilemma we're facing.
Now, we reached out as the PARS Equality Center, reached out to attorneys all across
Northern California to try to see if they're willing to take pro bono, meaning free, cases
to assist Afghan new arrivals to file their application. We haven't had many attorney
volunteers. Basically we have thousands of Afghans who need to file for asylum who
don't have representation.

Prepare well for any request for aid, especially asylum. From my personal experience
with just yesterday in front of an asylum officer, you really need to prepare the case
really well, otherwise this is going to go South. Then the fall back again, would be TPS,
temporary protective status, that hopefully will allow Afghan new arrivals to remain
here for 18 months and potentially more, once it's renewed. Those are the relief for
those who are already paroled, but the ones who are in Afghanistan still having issues
with humanitarian parole, and waiting for the administration to perhaps announce some

13
 Afghan parole program, so that that could facilitate the parole for those who are outside
this country.

Valerie: Thank you, Paris. I just want to say, we have probably 10 or 15 minutes more,
of full presentations here. We want to make sure you get the entire overview, and we
have time for that before we jump into the questions, but we will be going until 1:30
pm with questions, and then if you want to stay, we can even go for 15 or 30 minutes
more. We'll also have a feedback sheet, but let me turn it over to Kyra.

Kyra: Can you hear me?

Valerie: Yes. Maybe a little bit louder.

Kyra: Okay. What you all are hearing from Paris and from Spojmie, is that at the end of the day,
the vast majority of Afghans who were paroled into the United States are being forced
into a situation of needing to apply for asylum. What you are hearing is that this is a
very complex application, and a rigorous in-person interview, treated with a lot of
scrutiny. What you are also hearing is that there is a tremendous lack of legal
representation for Afghans who are in need of pursuing this process.

Organization and advocacy by the legal community. What I'm going to talk to you
about a little bit now is what the legal community has been doing to come together, to
organize, to try to create more resources, and to try to advocate for a better system. I'm
going to first talk to you a little bit about some coordination and efforts that are
happening at the national level, including some advocacy, and then I'll talk more about
local coordination efforts here in the Bay Area. At the national level, there are a lot of
different things happening, but I'm going to focus on a project that was created at
human rights first called the Project for Afghan Legal Assistance or PALA. They
collaborate together with other national organizations to afford resource sharing for
other immigration legal service agencies and resettlement agencies who are trying to
grapple with this tremendous increase in caseload and new cases. I just want to take a
second to talk about that too. A lot of immigration legal service providing nonprofit
organizations do not do asylum work. They don't have the resources to do it, or they
don't have staff that know how to do it. It's also, usually it's a difficult case to prepare.
It's a difficult case to do.

Nonprofits and legal assistance. It's hard for nonprofits to do this. Most nonprofit
agencies and even private law offices in the United States, last August had never done a
Special Immigrant Visa application. No one had done SIV work before. All of us
collectively across the country had to come up to speed on new kinds of applications
and figure out what's required: What's going to get an application granted. The same is
true, of course, of humanitarian parole, which is under the leadership of PARS Equality
Center, that the legal community nationally was able to step up and file humanitarian
parole applications when nobody had done this before in a context like this.

14
Shared need for increasing capacity of assistance. There's this internal shared need for
capacity building and training that we were all confronted with. Human Rights First
and PALA were really recognizing that and bringing this all together in conversation to
share resources, to create templates and sample resources that will help people in
preparing their cases. Also, a lot of what they've been doing recently is an effort to
build capacity nationwide. The truth is that we are lucky. In the Bay Area, we are better
off than most places in the United States. We do have a robust immigration bar here.
We have a lot of nonprofit organizations here, and many Afghans have landed in parts
of the United States where there's nothing.

Some places in US like deserts when it comes to available legal services. It's like a
desert of legal resources. A lot of what Human Rights First has been doing through
PALA (Project for Afghan Legal Assistance) is to help nonprofits that maybe wouldn't
usually have capacity to do this kind of work learn how they can start doing it now, or
to help organizations build out the network of pro bono attorneys that Paris was
referring to. I'll talk about that a little bit more in a second as well.

PALA information tracking. Another thing that we all do through PALA, led by Human
Rights First, is track information. They've put together an asylum tracking sheet. It's
just a shared Excel spreadsheet. It has no personal identifying information on it, but
advocates across the United States can track what's happened with the Afghan asylum
cases that they've filed. That's really useful information for us. We can see if there's one
office that's really conducting much longer interviews than other asylum offices like the
Boston Asylum Office was mentioned, versus the San Francisco Asylum Office. It
helps us track the outcomes of these cases, see how long it's taking before a decision is
issued. All of which is information that then we can provide our clients to help calibrate
their expectations.

Information tracking helps identify needs. By tracking all of this information with
asylum cases, and with the other immigration applications we've talked about, we
identify areas where advocacy is needed with the federal government. It's been
mentioned already today. Paris mentioned the need for an Afghan Adjustment Act. I'm
sorry, she was talking about the Afghan Parole Act, the streamlined program that would
be similar to what was created for Ukrainian nationals. Human Rights First has been
working a lot on that together with No One Left Behind, a nonprofit of former US
veterans who are working to ensure that no one was left behind in Afghanistan in
harm's way.

Human Rights First and Project ANAR. Human Rights First and Project ANAR has
also been involved in that. Then, collectively across the country, there's been advocacy
for an Afghan Adjustment Act. The problem is, as we've discussed, that parole is
temporary; TPS, temporary protective status, is temporary. These are also not statuses
that would allow a person to bring their family members to join them in the United
States. As we've discussed, the default is that people are funneled into this very
challenging asylum system when really what we need is a simple way for people who

15
were evacuated by the US Government, and brought to the United States by the US
Government to get their legal, permanent residency in the United States.

Proposed Afghan Adjustment Act. This is the Afghan Adjustment Act that has been
proposed. National organizations like Human Rights First and local organizations
across the country are supporting a grassroots initiative for Congress to pass an act like
this that would just alleviate this whole problem of the need for sophisticated lawyers
on every single application.

Local legal efforts: Here, in the Bay Area, what we've been doing through the East Bay
Refugee and Immigrant Forum (EBRIF), we formed a working group of legal service
providers to talk about the needs of the Afghan Community and to do the same things
that I was just saying we're doing on the national level.

Sharing resources, building capacity; collaboration among agencies, but all with
waitlists. We share resources. We talk about how we can build capacity. We talk about
which organization is able to take what kind of case, who's already at max, or has a
waitlist in an effort to try to avoid giving our Afghan clients the runaround, so that
we're not sending them to other nonprofits that aren't going to be able to take them, and
they're sending them to other nonprofits they can't take them. The truth is, as you're
hearing, that pretty much all nonprofits have a waitlist. Some of the waitlists are very
long. Here at Jewish Family & Community Services East Bay (JFCS East Bay), we are
unable to take direct representation in any Afghan case, other than those for the
individuals whom we've resettled at JFCS East Bay. We have about 500 people that are
in our queue for direct representation at JFCS East Bay. That's a much larger number
than we would normally handle in a year. We are also not turning our backs on our
usual clients. This is a massive expansion. The truth is it takes time to ramp up.

Assistance agencies innovating, adapting amid problems. We are also, like PARS
Equality, trying to create a pro bono program where we're training attorneys, who
might not have expertise in immigration law, how to do an asylum case, so that they
would take an Afghan family to apply for asylum with no charge. I know that IRC,
which is the International Rescue Committee, the other very large refugee resettlement
agency working in the East Bay, has a small legal services department, which is doing
everything it can to serve as many clients as it can. It's an impossibility to file asylum
for all of those applicants.

Afghans representing themselves. They have one attorney who's working in their
Sacramento office. She is new and heroically working to get a pro se clinic for asylum
applications off the ground. That means helping Afghans to complete their own asylum
applications and be prepared to go to an asylum interview without an attorney. This is
not ideal, as Paris has described, but it is, as I often say, better than nothing. Some
people do have very strong cases and some of our Afghan clients are very, very
sophisticated people who are able to advocate for themselves.

16
A complex tapestry of different solutions. All of this is to say that what we really have
is a complex tapestry of different solutions that we are trying to weave together to meet
this overwhelming legal need.

Definition of asylum too technical and narrow for some Afghans who need protection.
A couple of other things I wanted to mention, it's been mentioned that some people who
were paroled into the United States from Afghanistan might not actually qualify for
asylum. At the beginning of this talk, I was talking about the really narrow refugee
definition under the US Refugee Act. Asylum is basically the flip side of refugee.
Asylum is proving that you're a refugee under that really narrow definition when you're
already here in the United States. It's really technical. It's not just about being deserving
of protection. It's a very legalistic specific narrow thing to qualify for asylum. Not
everybody who was paroled into the United States would be granted, and that is a
problem.

Being careful and aware; even unavoidable bribes can seem like terror support. Another
thing that Paris touched on is that a lot of people who were in the crushing panic of
trying to reach Hamid Karzai Airport in order to be evacuated were confronted with
Taliban checkpoints, and they had to pay a bribe, or they had to do something in
order to get through the checkpoint to get to the airport. This can actually pose a
really big problem for someone in their asylum application, because there's
something called the terrorism-related inadmissibility grounds, which is basically a bar
to asylum. This is another challenge in a lot of these cases, is figuring out whether
someone did something, even if they were under pressure, if they gave any small
amount of money, or at what, if they might have in any way, be perceived to have in
some way helped the Taliban or another terrorist group, or actor that can really
complicate their asylum case.

Must apply for asylum within one year after entering the US. Then one other challenge
I wanted to mention is just that, normally, there's a rule that you have to apply for
asylum within one year of your entry to the United States. If you don't apply within one
year of your entry, then your case is denied, no matter how qualified you might be, no
matter how perfectly you might meet that really narrow refugee definition. There are
regulations which say that there could be extraordinary circumstances under which
USCIS (United States Citizenship and Immigration Services) can waive that one-year
deadline.

Uncertainty on the one year filing deadline. One potential extraordinary circumstance is
maintaining lawful status, including having parole status. USCIS, as I mentioned,
through Human Rights First and other national organizations, we've been pushing on
USCIS for them to tell us definitively that Afghan parolees are not subject to that one
year filing deadline. What they've said in response is, "It's in the regulations," so they
haven't given us like a 100% full proof guarantee that any Afghan who applies for
asylum as long as they're still in their parole status or shortly after it expires that their
application will still be considered to be filed on time, but they've indicated that it's
very likely that the applications will be deemed timely.

17
 Many regard the uncertainty and one year anniversary as caused of great concern.
All of this is to say that, now it's May 3rd, and once we reach the end of August we're
coming upon the one year anniversary of the entry of many of our Afghan clients.
People are panicked, and they are very, very worried that if they don't get their asylum
application filed before the one year deadline, that it's going to all be lost. Here at JFCS
East Bay we are advising our clients that if they're filing in this area, and their case is
going to go to the San Francisco asylum office there's—I can't say it's a guarantee, but I
just think that as a former asylum officer I can say that the San Francisco asylum office
policy has been in the past to treat lawful status like parole as an extraordinary
circumstance, which would warrant an exception to that one year filing deadline. New
asylum officers are trained that if someone is still in lawful status then that one year
deadline hasn't kicked in yet.

Remain calm and wait to file a solid application with an attorney. A lot of what we're
doing is really trying to calm people's nerves because it is impossible for every Afghan
in the Bay Area to receive legal representation and get their asylum case filed before
the one year deadline. It is not going to happen, and it would be better for Afghan
applicants to work with an attorney or a legal representative like Paris was talking
about, so that what they put forth is a really solid application, as opposed to
panicking and scrambling and filing on their own without preparation, just because
they're trying to meet this deadline. This is one of the big challenges that we're seeing
right now is this tremendous pressure and panic.

Some positive factors. Before I finish I just wanted to share with you a couple of
positive factors or promising signals about where we stand in all of this. One thing is
that Afghan asylum cases are being expedited. That anybody who's not from
Afghanistan who applies for asylum in the same way that Afghani applicants are
applying, they could wait four or five years before they get an interview at the asylum
office. Afghan asylum cases have to be scheduled for an interview within 90 days, and
we are seeing that USCIS is generally sticking to that, and people are getting their
asylum interview scheduled quickly. It's still not clear exactly how long it's taking for
people to get a decision after they have the interview, but there is guidance to USCIS
that they should issue the decisions within 180 days of filing. We're hopeful that six
months from filing an asylum application that family could have asylum, and have
that certainty that they can remain in the United States. A couple of other things
that are promising is that I really just am so tremendously grateful for the collaboration
among organizations that are working on this, both nationally and locally. The resource
sharing has been tremendous, and it really has created capacity where none existed
before. That's been a tremendous development.

A few more positive notes. We also are starting to see other government entities, state
entities, county entities, looking for ways to fund legal services for Afghan parolees.
It's taken a while for the message to sink in, but they're starting to step up and put
money forward to help hire more attorneys and create more opportunities for Afghans
to obtain legal representation in their cases. Then the other thing I just wanted to note is

18
 that all of us have benefited tremendously from community volunteers coming
forward to help in all different capacities as volunteer interpreters, which is crucial as
volunteers to support resettlement efforts, bringing people groceries, helping people
obtain the basics that they need, clothing and other things. The community has really
shown tremendous support for our new Afghan neighbors, and that has been very
heartening. That's all I'll say for now. Thank you.

Valerie: Thank you so much. We have really just delighted in the dedication of our panelists
today. Spojmie will have a little bit to share about where to send people generally, but I
think what I want to do is open it up for questions, because we have some questions
coming in, and I think that would be good. Yes.

Paris: I just wanted to follow up on what Kyra was saying-

Valerie: Oh sure.

Paris: That asylum and USCIS actually reached out to us because we work closely. We are
actually funded by USCIS for certain grants to assist folks to become US citizens, and
we have a close relationship with the USCIS office.

Afghans handling their own cases don’t know how to prepare for their interview. They
contacted us and said that the SF asylum office has reached out and said that the
Afghans who show up for their interview, for their asylum, who have filed the case pro
se, meaning on their own without an attorney representation are absolutely unprepared.
They don't know why they are there. They don't know why they have to go to that
building on Hawthorne Street in San Francisco, they believe that they're just told to
come and just show up, and say hello. They don't have any documents with them, and
they have absolutely zero preparation for the interview. It's been a crisis that the SF
office has asked the community relations person, liaison, who is in touch with us to
address and ask nonprofits or whoever is working with the Afghan community to note
this issue, this crisis of Afghans showing up for their interview not knowing why
they're there.

Pro se clinics to help people file asylum claims. These pro se clinics, asylum
clinics. We actually, PARS and our partners, did one a few months ago, we did a
process on claim for new arrivals, with the help of volunteer attorneys from a big law
firm. It was clear that I think over 55 applications were filed during that asylum clinic,
but it was clear that most folks who would be called in for an interview would not be
able to present their claims. These people really needed support. I think that probably
the asylum office was complaining about some of the folks we assisted pro se.

Concerning 'pro se' (people representing themselves) settings. There's only so

much you can do in a pro se setting. I want to mention that this is a crisis right now.
Again as Kyra said, it's a complex matter, complex law, and then you really need
support. Then finally I wanted to give a statistic that came to me in my email about the
approval rating in the asylum office and different asylum offices and their approval

19
 ratings. During the Biden administration from January 2021 to May 27, 2021 there
were only 32% approval rating at the San Francisco office. These are generally cases
that were filed with attorney representative. This was before the filing of all the
Afghan cases. This is in 2020 first quarter of 2021, and yet there were only 32%
approval rating. The Boston asylum office had 7% approval rating during that period
from January 2021 to May 27, 2020. This is the complex case, and that's why I think
the government has introduced TPS (temporary protective status) for Afghan new
arrivals, because they know that the statistics don't look great.

Valerie: Thank you Paris, it's important for all of us to be aware of these urgent needs, then we
can advocate, we can collaborate and try to do something to help these issues. I have
put a feedback link, that also has a question about a date for our next meeting, in the
chat box. If you can click on that link and give us a little bit of feedback, our meeting's
still going on, but I wanted to give that to you early. Then in the summer we're planning
on having Haris Tarin who is the Senior Policy Advisor for Operation Allies Welcome
with the Department of Homeland Security.

Haris Tarin would have been a speaker. He was going to be one of our speakers at our
last meeting in January, but then had COVID, and he was actually at the hospital with
his daughter so wasn't able to attend, like Spojmie could today. We're having him, and
maybe another speaker, but because people are on vacation in the summer, I want to
gauge when people might be available, so please take a few moments to fill that out.
I'm going to just put all of our speakers here. We have some questions. Then Spojmie
we feel free to…

Spojmie: I'm here.

Valerie: Feel free to also add in where people can find resources.

Spojmie: I can just quickly give a one-minute summary.

Valerie: Okay, let's just do that.

Spojmie: The theme of this whole immigrant law talk, sometimes our listeners walk away so
overwhelmed, all three of us do so many of these panels.

Working with the USCIS. I understand that there's over 75,000 Afghans here, and we're
all trying to help in every capacity. I was just on a call with USCIS the other day, I
hadn't had a chance to share with Paris and Kyra, we were on a call with the USCIS
high officials. There may be some way to get some funding that would allow
nonprofits to be able to subcontract with private attorneys for low bono cases in
order to take cases.

Concerning the Afghan Adjustment Act. Although many, many people are getting into
the black hole by calling different places, and are not able to get legal representation,
we're hoping that that will change. The AAA—the Afghan Adjustment Act—is being at

20
 the legislative level, trying to see if we can attach it to the Ukrainian Supplemental Bill
and hope that the Republicans will support it, because that would be a straight pathway
for Afghans.

The importance of an Afghan's cultural competency. If you are working in the legal
capacity with an Afghan, knowing their cultural competency is very, very important. A
short example is I was on a military base and someone asked some Afghan guests, "Are
you Hazara, are you Tajik, are you Pashtun, and are you Shia or are Sunni?" They
clamped up, and it's like a target on their back. For those of you who want to do cultural
competency, please reach out. There are many organizations like AILA (American
Immigration Lawyers Association), the ABA (American Bar Association) and other
organizations who have cultural competency in terms of legal representation, I think,
the human aspect in that issue that we're seeing. The last thing I just wanted to mention
is, when I was on these military bases, I saw the need for so many issues that came up
to do with polygamy, the inadmissibility issues and stuff like that, that I thought we
would see all over.

Working with USC Law School, PARS Equality, any organization you can I have
teamed up with USC Law School and their students, we're putting together a
comprehensive resource of all the different organizations, Human Rights First, PARS
Equality Center, every organization you can think of. We're trying to put together a
comprehensive tool that you can access, we'll be putting that out.

Be mindful of complexities due to the US embassy in Afghanistan being closed. The

other quick thing I just wanted to mention is that for those of you, who are helping
telling Afghans to go and file petitions for their family members in Afghanistan,
remember that USCIS is not expediting. For example, I have filed fiance cases, spousal
cases, parent cases at USCIS, you will literally get an approval within two weeks, but
they're not expediting them so that's going to take a process. For those of you who are
documentary ready for case that the National Visa Center, but because the US embassy
is closed in Afghanistan, then what you do is that person must have a visa to a third
country like Pakistan, Qatar, UAE, wherever they have visa for, you can request the
National Visa Center to transfer their cases there to have an interview. I've done a lot of
those cases. There are still some avenues to get Afghans out. I just wanted to share that,
and then I guess we'll leave it up for question and answers. Valerie.

Valerie: That was terrific information. I'm hearing you say in terms of the cultural competency
and understanding that people really should be careful when they ask what ethnicity are
you, or what is your marital status. That can be a target on their back, so we need to just
be very, very sensitive to these issues.

Spojmie: I'm sorry. The last thing I wanted to mention.

Valerie: Sure.

Spojmie: I just want to mention the Tarjimly language translation app has been endorsed by the

21
 United Nations. I know IRC and different organizations, the Afghan American
community organizations along with my law office, we teamed up with them, it's an app,
I do have the videos, I do have how to use the app in Pashto and Dari and in English. For
those of you who need somebody live to do translations for you, contact me. It is a great
resource. I'll put my email in the chat. If anybody needs resources, just connect with me
offline. It's a really great source to get free translation services live through the phone
with someone.

The Question-and-Answer Session

Valerie: Thank you very much. Very good to have that information as well, so many resources. I
will send out through the listserv as well, which I have your email addresses if you're
here today, the information from today's meeting, and other resources I do regularly
send out. Let's take some questions. Cyrus in the chat box says, "Hi, my agency has an
Afghan men's group, which meets weekly. Is there a way to get someone
knowledgeable about legal matters regarding Afghan refugees to come speak to the
group?" Who would like to take that?

Paris: I can do that. If you organize that Cyrus, I can Zoom in and give a 30-minute overview.

Valerie: Thank you for that. Then let's see. Nariman says, "Hi, I'm here in Modesto, but helped
all the new Afghans in Modesto, Turlock hotels, unfortunately, some have police cases,
what's going to happen to them, they asked me?"

Spojmie: Sorry. Can you repeat that question.

Valerie: Some have police, do you mean that they have criminal records?

Nariman: Yes, please. Valerie, thank you so much. They've had a fight in the bars, or with the
neighbors or something. Thank you.

Valerie: They've had fights in the bars here in Turlock or Modesto, and so you're worried that's
going to affect their asylum case?

Nariman: Yes. They're asking.

Spojmie: Well, they will have a right to a public defender, and they will need to work with their
public defender to try to minimize the possibility of a conviction or anything for the
charges. That would be the first suggestion I would have, because you need to work
through the criminal system to minimize the convictions that will not affect their
asylum cases. Second, I know that in Turlock, for example, there's 150 to 180 families,
I think if there's a resource available to be able to talk to these men and tell them what
their consequences are, so that they understand not to do future acts.

Nariman: Yes. We several times talk to them, but unfortunately, a bunch of them they're out of

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 range, that's why I need your help, and I can pass it on that information you guys
provide it to me, I'm going to pass it on. Thank you so much.

Valerie: All right. Thank you. What is the recourse if the asylum application is denied?

Kyra: If asylum application is denied and person still has lawful status. All right. I did try to
answer this one in the chat. Essentially, it depends on whether the person is still in
lawful status at the time that the asylum office decision is issued. If a person has parole,
or if they have TPS, or even if they were here on a different visa, like a student visa, or
visitor visa, and they applied for asylum, and their asylum application is denied at the
asylum office, then that's it, they get a denial letter. There are a couple of steps along
the way, but at the end of the day, they would just get a denial letter.

If asylum application is denied and person no longer has lawful status. Under most
circumstances, they would not lose whatever status they currently had, but if the person
is no longer in lawful status, if their parole has expired, or they didn't renew their TPS,
or TPS wasn't extended, or if they entered as a tourist, and their visitor visa expired,
and at the time the asylum office issues the denial of their case, what the asylum office
will do in that circumstance is they are required to put that person in removal
proceedings, which means they issue a notice to appear, which is a charging document.

Appearing in immigration court. It's if you think about an indictment, in a

criminal case, the notice to appear is the thing that begins the legal process against the
person in court, and then that person would have to go to immigration court hearings. In
court, they would have an opportunity to ask for asylum again, before the judge. It's
much harder for a variety of reasons. One thing is that when you go for your asylum
interview in the San Francisco asylum office, you're interviewed in an office, by an
officer who is required to be non-adversarial. Sometimes they are adversarial, but
sometimes they are actually helpful. However, if you go to immigration court, there is
an attorney who is arguing against you, there's someone who's fighting against you
being able to stay in the United States.

Much harder to win asylum after it has been denied. That's a much more
challenging situation, and it's a lot harder to win asylum after it's been denied once, it's
not impossible, but it's just harder. Then if it's denied at the immigration court level,
there are appeals that someone can pursue, it becomes increasingly difficult in terms of
resources, in terms of expense with an attorney, and all those kinds of things. Once you
get denied at the asylum office, if you're placed in those court proceedings, the risk is
that if you lose when you're in court proceedings, you could be ordered removed, which
basically means deported, so that's the danger.

Nariman: Thank you, Kyra. Appreciate for your information. Thank you.

Valerie: Yes. Thank you, Kyra. I am reposting the link for the feedback sheet. Thank you for
that. We have a question in the chat from Emily.

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Emily: I have a young man, a father of four plus wife, who is in hiding near that Herat border, he
was an interpreter for a USG and NATO contractor and applied for SIV and was
denied. I have read that SIV visas have plummeted and that there may be problems with
erroneous denials. He now has 120 days to appeal. I am at a loss for what to tell him
and where to go from here, please advise.

Paris: This is a case-specific question. I guess the best way to deal with this is to have the person
somehow arrange for legal consultation, and figure out what's the best way to
proceed… Again, case by case, and I would recommend that an attorney reviews this,
but unfortunately, we have so many cases like this that are either pending or denied.

After SIV denial, person could file for humanitarian parole, but unlikely to be granted.
There's always the humanitarian parole as a backup that really is not going anywhere
unless we have a specific Afghan parole program that makes it streamlined for folks
like this to be able to come into the United States, but or if the US decides to resume
evacuation, which does not look likely at this point. Yes, unfortunately, this is a
situation that many people are facing right now, in Afghanistan as they're hiding for
their lives.

TPS filing clinics. There's a question about TPS, right beneath Emily's question [in the
chat], about who can help with TPS filing. What we're trying to do at PARS is we're
trying to organize TPS clinics. TPS obviously is much easier to file than asylum, and
we actually have been doing Ukrainian TPS applications. We've already received
notices for several of them. We're planning on, especially at our new office in Fremont,
where we have access to conference rooms where, and we do regularly hold mass
immigration clinics for Afghan new arrivals. We're trying to organize such clinics for
TPS in particular. We're looking into that and again, you'll see many more legal
representatives offering to help file TPS because it's a much easier application to file.

Valerie: Thank you. We have another question in the chat. An organization Catholic Charities of
Monterrey has begun removal defense asylum in June of last year. They've taken
limited cases from Central America but now have a demand for Afghan parolees
seeking representation. They need training for their immigration practitioners, is there a
mentorship program that would pair attorneys willing to mentor a fledgling program
like ours, with our Afghan caseload?

Kyra: PALA’s training for immigration practitioners. I just also tried to address this in the
chat. I put the email address for signing up for the PALA (Project for Afghan Legal
Assistance) group through Human Rights First: contact pala@humanrightsfirst.org to
sign up for the regularly scheduled Zoom meetings and get access to lots of resources
that would help you get an Afghan asylum program up and running. It has been a
lifeline for our organization.
They've been providing a lot of resources to help nonprofits train up on how to present
Afghan asylum cases, and I'll drop another link in the chat in just a second for Vecina,
https://vecina.teachable.com/p/afghan-aslyum, which has a whole library of resources

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 on how to prepare Afghan asylum cases specifically. For me, I'm a really collaborative
thinker, and I really appreciate being able to be in conversation with other people to
problem solve.

Being involved in the PALA community is very helpful. I feel like being part of that
community has been really helpful. It's really helped me figure out ways to address our
client's needs here, when we did not have an asylum program in place. We are starting
it from scratch now. I find that collaboration really useful. They've also had, I think,
two meetings recently that are specifically geared towards nonprofit organizations that
are trying to build up an asylum program. I just think that's a really good place to start,
along with Vecina.

Valerie: That's fantastic. Thank you. Jill, please unmute.

Jill: Law schools and universities can provide helpful sources of information. What I want
to say is, I'm going to recruit my cousin who's a lawyer in the East Bay, so the
really important thing is to please give us a list of all the resources that are in the chat,
because I'm not computer literate very much, but aside from that, I was going to say,
we have a collaborative thing with, because I'm Red Cross, we've received a lot of calls
from both Afghan and Ukrainian families for resources. I've followed up with
Monterey law schools, who have been really helpful, and also, the universities have
been really helpful, and I'm amazed at how many interpreters and translators we were
able to get.

Valerie: Excellent tips, thank you.

Jill: If you go to the local universities, or the local law schools, they have been very
collaborative, and I totally agree that collaboration and working with other community
agencies, even though they may not be refugee or immigration forums, is a good way to
go.

Valerie: Marja, please.

Marja: Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Marja Carson, I am a caseworker at RIT

(Refugee and Immigrant Transitions). I have a quick question for the panel. Clients, as
you mentioned, who may not be qualified for SIV or asylum, how would they get
approved for the temporary protection applications? Would that be easy? Please give
me your thoughts on that, because that might be send a panic message to the
community people who arrived here who most of them may not be qualified for SIV or
asylum.

Spojmie: People not qualified for SIV or asylum should also file for TPS. TPS, Temporary
Protected Status, is going to be granted for 18 months, and everybody should be
applying for that once the Federal Registry is out. The Temporary Protective Status has
been approved for Afghan nationals, but the Federal Registry has not rolled it out. As
Paris mentioned, they're helping Ukrainians because the Federal Registry has been out.

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 The application (we have to wait for the details), but it's fairly straightforward.

The TPS is separate from asylum and the SIV. It's separate from asylum. It's separate
from the SIV (Special Immigrant Visa), and even those who are applying for asylum or
have already applied for asylum in my humble opinion, they should still apply for TPS.
We have to wait for the federal registry to be released, and my hope is that many
community organizations will hold workshops for the Temporary Protected Status
applications. I've done many of these in the past for other type of clients, and they're
fairly straightforward, so I'm not sure what you mean, there's panic in the community.

Marja: What it is that most, because we work with Afghan clients, and they're already panicking
that August is coming, their one year is already ending, and they haven't got a lawyer,
because everybody has a waiting list, private lawyers are already booked, so they're
freaked out that they need to apply for their asylum cases, and they're very uncertain
regarding their futures. If we add the TPS to that and that will just literally like—It's
already a big panic. They're all calling nonstop, "Where can I be on?" They call
everywhere, and I'm sure you guys are aware of that, that they want…

Spojmie: Yes, I get 100 calls a week for TPS, for asylum.

Marja: Exactly, for PARS Equality. Miss Lillian JFCS, everybody gets calls, and they want us
to put them on waiting list and push their cases. They hear all these things from the
community, so they're just like panicking what if they get deported? Where are they
going to go, what they're going to do?

Spojmie: Spojmie available to hold community town hall meetings. Yes, those concerns are
legitimate. What I would offer myself, I'm happy to do a, not in person, but I'm happy to
do a Zoom call. If there's a huge community. You have a need to do it in Pashto or Dari,
to give the community more than anything. They may not get the answer they want, but
at least they'll get the correct information, so I offer myself to you. If you have a whole
group of people that want to know their rights, and what's going to happen and stuff like
that, the best thing would be is to have these community town hall meetings via Zoom,
and give people the information that they need.

Marja: Thank you, Spojmie jaan, thank you.

Valerie: Thank you. Thank you everybody for attending the meeting today. Please do take
a few moments to fill out the feedback sheet. We do plan to have Haris Tarin, the
Senior Cultural Advisor for the Department of Homeland Security, and part of
Operation Allies Welcome, who was on the military bases. He was going to be one of
our speakers in January but had COVID, and so now, we're rescheduling him and I
want to make sure you don't miss it, so let us know what dates you're available.

You will get a recording of this meeting if you're here, because I have your email, and
I'll be sure to send that out, and really looking forward to continuing collaborating with
everybody. We especially want to thank our esteemed panelists, Kyra, Paris, and

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 Spojmie. You have been completely amazing. Even though we're concluding the
meeting now, and we thank everybody for coming, we want to invite you to stay
informally afterwards. If you still have any questions, we can continue the conversation
for another 15 minutes or half hour, whatever anybody needs. If you have an individual
Afghan client that needs assistance, please reach out to your local immigration attorney
office, working with Afghan clients. You can Google that, or you can email me and I
will put my email in the chat (Valeriejs2@gmail.com), but this particular meeting today
was not focused on that. (Kyra types into the chat: Send clients who need free legal
consultation to JFCS East Bay: 925-927-2000.) Again, thank you for coming. This
officially concludes our meeting, but you're welcome to stay around and chat. Just a big
hand clap to our amazing panelists. Thank you so much.

Kyra: Hey, Valerie. Wendy, were you going to ask the question you just put in the chat?

Wendy: Yes.

Valerie: Very good. What is the panel's view about people who apply for both SIV and
asylum status?

Wendy: To clarify a little bit, I'm a retired attorney, but I am working as an interface
with the legal offices in the resettlement agency. We have gentlemen who are partway
through the SIV status, and it's been recommended that they apply for asylum first,
because it is moving faster, but every time I meet with these gentlemen, they want to
know why they aren't doing the applications for SIV. I keep saying the same thing,
which it says it has to do with the timing and that they can always jump on the SIV
wagon later on. I just am interested in what you think.

Kyra: Everyone should apply for TPS. That, I agree with you, Wendy. Spojmie, in particular
today, was really emphasizing that everybody should apply for Temporary Protected
Status. In an ideal world—folks would apply for everything that they're qualified for
and really, what this is coming down to is, capacity and resources. It is very difficult and
complicated to apply for asylum, but it is in many ways, something that's more within
our control than SIV, when the person doesn't have their COM letter yet—the Chief of
Mission letter. Then, like we've discussed earlier, there's this needle in a haystack, try
and hunting around, trying to find a former employer and confirm their employment,
and it's just a huge amount of time and resources that go into that piece of the SIV
process.

Limited resources: apply first for immigration status for client that makes the most
sense. From our limited, nonprofit mentality, scarcity mentality, we only have so many
hours in the day, it just makes more sense for us to focus on filing for asylum.
However, we have had clients where we're like, "Looks like you're going to need to
apply for asylum," but then they get the COM (Chief of Mission) letter approved.
Great, now, we don't need to deal with asylum. We can change gears, and we can go
with SIV, because that is going to be more straightforward. A couple of things that I
heard recently, and Paris or Spojmie or anybody else, can chime in if they've heard

27
 anything more current, but last I heard, it is taking just a matter of weeks for the first
step of the SIV application, the I-360 petition to be approved after someone has the
COM letter, so that's very fast.

Asylum, Green Card, COM letter. Then, once they get that piece done, then they
go on to apply for their Green Card which is a better thing to get than asylum, because
asylum is a stepping stone on the road to a Green Card. It would be much better if you
can just get the Green Card through SIV, but the problem is that the other piece of
information I heard a few weeks ago is that, it was taking USCIS something like, 585
days to adjudicate an application for a COM letter, once they actually got to reviewing
it.

SIV can take 1.5 to 2 years; need COM letter. Basically, when someone tells us
they just began filing for SIV, we say, "It's going to take easily, a year and a half or two
years before that resolves." We need to just proceed with something that's more
immediate like asylum, and if you get that COM letter in the meantime, great, we'll
change gears, because that's going to be better for you, but you can't sit around and wait
for it.

Wendy: Well, I know that several of these gentlemen came with these letters that come
from the human resources person in Afghanistan, and also, say that there is I think, a
COM letter, if I understand what it is correctly, not being an immigration attorney, that
says, "This person has been investigated and I think he's a good guy," basically. Is that
the COM letter, or is it one step shy of the COM letter?

Kyra: It's one step shy. Go ahead, Paris.

Wendy: Got it.

Paris: Three stages of the SIV process. Yes. I'm just following up on what Kyra was saying,
it's important, Wendy, to know more about the SIV process. There are three stages. The
first stage is to request for the Chief of Mission approval, that's the part that's taking so
long. The one I last applied for, was in August of 2021, I'm still waiting.

Once client has COM letter pursue SIV: You need to check with the clients you're
trying to assist is, whether they do have that COM approval letter, if they do then they
should pursue SIV, because the I-360 does in fact take about 30 days to get approved.
The last one again, I filed was 30 days from filing to approval. Then after that, it's a
straightforward Green Card application. If they do have their Chief of Mission approval
letter or email, then definitely that would be the best path to pursue.

Valerie: Thank you. Thank you for that very thorough answer, and thank you for the follow-up
questions as well. Wendy, we have a question from Qalim Cromer.

Qalim: You need to check with the clients you're trying to assist is, whether they do have that
COM approval letter, if they do then they should pursue SIV, because the I-360 does in

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 fact take about 30 days to get approved. Yes, I had submitted the question about getting
our program off the ground. We're focusing Catholic Charities Diocese of Monterey. I
guess my question is very Afghan-specific. We have clients that worked for the Afghan
National Police, and I know with our Central American cases, you want to do a lot of
screening in regards to that.

Then also, we had a question about the evidentiary sufficiency of—If you can just talk
a little bit about the interview process, I think is what we're concerned about, because
we know what to expect in the interview with the Central American client, but not what
to expect in the Afghan interview.

Paris: I don't know if anybody on the panel, Spojmie or Kyra, has recently gone to an
Afghan interview, or sat in an interview?

Kyra: Go for it, Paris. You have very fresh experience.

Paris: What an Afghan asylum interview is like. Yes. I did one yesterday. It was a
straightforward case, in my opinion, but not in the officer's opinion. Yes, a lot of
questions to make sure that there is no terrorism-related inadmissibility ground or
persecutor bar. If this person had harmed somebody in the past, then a lot of questioning
was around that area. The person had not worked for the Afghan government, he had
worked for the US government, so it was a straightforward case, but the officer insisted
on knowing whether any of his relatives worked for any Afghan military or Afghan
police or other concerned organization.

Interview questions about interactions with Taliban. There will be a lot of

questions around that, also around their interactions with the Taliban, the questions
were, whether before the fall of Kabul if they had lived in a district that was controlled
by the Taliban, because a lot of districts were actually controlled by the Taliban before
August 15, 2021. Not just particularly the applicant, but the applicants' relatives, as far
as aunts and uncles. The questioning extended to those relatives as well, with specific
names asked, like, "What is your uncle's name and spelling?" It was very thorough and
you definitely need to cover those grounds with the client and prep them before the
interview.

Qalim: Thank you.

Paris: There was a question about whether he has tattoos, which I thought he probably took that
from-

Kyra: That was interview template for the MS-13. Oh my gosh.

Paris: Asked about tattoos.

Kyra: Mock asylum interview. I just put two links in the chat for a mock asylum interview.
It's not like Paris's asylum interview, she was saying with hours, this is a mock

29
 interview that we recorded that was like 45 minutes long. It's not comprehensive at all,
but this is with an eye towards giving people who might be pro bono attorneys, or
nonprofits that are building up an Afghan asylum program, a little bit more confidence
about what to expect at the interview for these kinds of cases. [From the chat: HRF,
Vecina, and JFCS East Bay recently produced a mock asylum interview video
based on the kinds of questions advocates report seeing nationally.

Paris: It's an excellent mock interview. I watched it.

Valerie: Thank you. Thank you, both of you. Do we have any other questions? Now's your time.
Now's your chance. Yes, Marja.

Marja: Ladies, in your experience, have you ever had any TPS denied?

Paris: No, not in my experience.

Spojmie: Unlikely that TPS would be denied if requirements are met. No. If somebody filed it
on their own, and they didn't give the requirements that were needed, the
documentation, certainly yes, but if they provided the required documentations, there is
no reason why they would be denied. It's been around for many, many other
nationalities.

Paris: There may be complications when there are inadmissibility issues, but for the Afghan
community, there should not be that. Hopefully that would not be the issue.

Kyra: I agree with what Spojmie and Paris just said that if you meet the requirements which are
spelled out in the Federal Register and they're spelled out on the USCIS website, then
your TPS should be granted, and it should be that straightforward, but if there's any
question around whether someone was forced to pay a bribe to the Taliban, at any point
in time, not specifically in evacuating to get to the airport, something like that,
ostensibly could cause a problem.

If there’s any concern, talk with an attorney to decide whether to file for TPS. We
haven't seen these cases go forward yet, so we don't really know yet. I think that
anybody who has that concern really needs to talk to an attorney, they really need to
speak to a legal expert to assess whether or not it makes sense for them to file now, or if
they should just stay in their parole status, and let other people go forth and apply and
see what happens. This is something I say to clients all the time, "You don't want to be
the guinea pig." If there's any reasons for us to worry about the possible outcome for a
specific individual, we'll encourage them to try to sit tight in their parole status with the
work permit, and let others go forward so that as collectively as a community, we can
see how the government is treating these cases.

Spojmie: Difficulties with lack of documentation. I would just echo my-co panelists, one thing I
would mention is like whether we're doing SIV or we're doing family-based
adjustments, or we're doing the asylum, one of the biggest challenges that we've run to

30
 is documentation. As many of you may or may not know, Afghans literally left with
nothing but clothes on their back, some didn't even have shoes, some burned their
papers so the Taliban wouldn't see it as they were coming to the checkpoint.

Anticipates legal community explaining hardships as to why documentation may be

missing. One of the things I anticipate if they're docking people who left without a
passport or a marriage certificate, one of the things we might see and my hope is, we
will push forward collectively as the legal community to provide information when
you're applying for any type of relief, is to explain why the documentation that are
required we're not able to provide them and that they still can get the relief they need.
That's one thing I might anticipate, but we will address it once the federal registry has
released the TPS program.

Marja: Thank you so much, I really appreciate it. It's great to have knowledge of programs so
we can pass along to our clients.

Valerie: I want to give Paris a moment to say goodbye because she needs to go to another
appointment, which we'll all be doing here shortly. Thank you again, Paris for your
valuable time as always.

Paris: Thank you so much. I thought it was supposed to finish at 1:45 pm so I have an
appointment coming up right now. Thank you everybody for joining. Thank you, Kyra
and Spojmie and Valerie. Again, we try our best to assist everybody. We're happy to do
know your rights events, and happy to speak to educate new arrivals. Please feel free to
contact me. I already gave my email to some people through direct messages on the chat,
but happy to help in any way we can. Thank you.

Valerie: Thank you so much. Kyra, do you want to say any closing comment?

Kyra: JFCS East Bay can legally represent clients resettled by our agency. I think the only
thing I would say is that, while at JFCS East Bay we can only offer direct
representation to Afghan asylum applicants that have been resettled by our agency, we
can offer free legal consultations to anybody in the state of California who is at or
below 250% of the poverty line. You can always send your clients to our office. I put
the phone number in the chat (925 927-2000), it's just a question of calling our front
desk, and asking for a legal consultation, and we can give people advice, counsel, and
we can provide referrals to other organizations if it's not a case that we can take here.

JFCS East Bay endeavors to make informed referrals. By and large with Afghan cases,
if they haven't been resettled by JFCS East Bay since last August, we won't be able to
take it here, but we are trying to keep our finger on the pulse of capacity at other
organizations in the Bay Area through our work with the East Bay Refugee Immigrant
Forum. We do endeavor to make informed referrals and not send clients on a wild
goose chase.

Valerie: Thank you very much for all of that valuable information. Spojmie, do you have any

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 closing comments?

Spojmie: I just wanted to thank my co-panelists, and thank everyone and sincere thanks for the
invitation and value for all the work that you continue to do and the Afghan Coalition
does for the Afghan community. I would just say, sometimes all of us, collectively are
helping so many people in so many ways, and we feel helpless, or we don't know what
we're doing, but know that you are making a difference for people in some way, and
we're hoping there are many people in the legislative groups in the advocacy groups
and all across the United States that groups and organizations that are pushing for the
Afghan Adjustment Act, and other benefits that Afghans can get.

With the Ukrainians also applying, Afghans have to work harder. One of the things I
noticed is with the Ukrainians coming in, there's a lot of support and taking their
asylum cases, and Afghan cases are falling on the back-end and collectively, we're all
pushing for AILA, ABA and all these organizations to step up. Let's be hopeful and
optimistic and if you do need help with anything, my panelists and I are available to
provide it, and we're trying to do the best that we can.

Don't submit an asylum application just to put in the application, but get legal
representation. Hopefully if the Afghan Adjustment Act does pass, that would give
Afghans a pathway and I would say, if they need help with their asylum, if they can at
least get some sort of pro bono help not to file on their own, because remember, once
you file it, that becomes part of the record. I can echo my panelists, but I would say
myself is that I don't want people to submit an application for the sake of getting an
application, because that can actually hurt them in the long run.

Stay optimistic. I would say at least see if you can get pro bono, pro se help, and also I
know the one year deadline is approaching, but I'm optimistic that we will be able to
overcome the one year exception. Continue to do all that you do and thank you for
everything that you guys are all doing for the community, and thank you for the invite
to this panel.

Valerie: Thank you very much, Spojmie for this valuable information as well, and to all of our
panelists. Spojmie, we hope that you feel much better soon and thank you, especially
for taking the time when you're under the weather. Everyone, you're so appreciated and
let's continue to work together and collaborate together. We hope to see many of you at
our summer meeting, and on email in the meantime, but take good care and let's
continue to take good care of each other. That concludes our meeting.

Valerie: Thank you again.

Kyra: Thank you, Valerie.

Valerie: You're welcome. Thank you, everybody.

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