Ohio History Connection v. The Moundbuilders Club

Proceedings, Vol.
II
3/19/2019 1 (327)
1 THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS

2 LICKING COUNTY, OHIO
3 - - -
4 State ex rel. Ohio History:
Connection, :
5 :
Plaintiff, :
6 :
vs. : Case No.
7 : 2018 CV 001284
The Moundbuilders Country :
8 Club Company, et al., :
:
9 Defendants. :
10 - - -
11 JUDGE W. DAVID BRANSTOOL, presiding.
12 - - -
13 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
14 VOLUME II
15 - - -
16 Tuesday, March 19, 2019
9:06 a.m.
17 Licking County Courthouse
One Courthouse Square
18 Newark, Ohio 43055
19 - - -
20 MARILYN K. MARTIN, RPR
21 REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTER
22 - - -
23
ANDERSON REPORTING SERVICES, INC.
24 1421 West Third Avenue
Columbus, Ohio 43212
25 (614) 326-0177
Anderson Reporting Services, Inc. (614) 326-0177

www.andersonreporting.com
Proceedings, Vol. II
3/19/2019 2 (328)
1 APPEARANCES:
2 KEITH L. O'KORN, Principal Assistant Attorney General
CHRISTIE S. LIMBERT, Assistant Attorney General
3 JENNIFER CROSKEY, Principal Assistant Attorney
General
4 Executive Agencies Section
30 East Broad Street, 26th Floor
5 Columbus, Ohio 43215
(614) 995-0663
6 keith.o'korn@ohioattorneygeneral.gov
christie.limbert@ohioattorneygeneral.gov
7 jennifer.croskey@ohioattorneygeneral.gov
8 On behalf of the Plaintiff.
9 JOSEPH A. FRALEY, Attorney at Law
JOSHUA M. FRALEY, Attorney at Law
10 Mitchell, Pencheff, Fraley, Catalano & Co., LPA
580 South High Street, Suite 300
11 Columbus, Ohio 43215
(614) 224-4114
12 jfraley@mitchell-lawyers.com
jmfraley@mitchell-lawyers.com
13
and
14
J. ANDREW CRAWFORD, Attorney at Law
15 Reese, Pyle, Meyer, PLL
36 North Second Street
16 Newark, Ohio 43058
(740) 345-3431
17 acrawford@reesepyle.com
18 On behalf of the Defendants.
19 SARA PORSIA, Attorney at Law
United States Department of Interior
20 Office of the Solicitor
1849 C Street
21 Washington, D.C. 20240
(202) 208-3100
22
On behalf of Witnesses Steven Morris and
23 Dr. Bret J. Ruby.
24 - - -
25

3/19/2019 3 (329)
1 I N D E X
2 - - -
3 WITNESSES ON BEHALF OF THE STATE PAGE
4 STEVEN MORRIS
5 Direct Examination 331
(By Mr. O'Korn)
6 Cross-Examination 377
(By Mr. Crawford)
7
DR. BRET J. RUBY
8
Direct Examination 402
9 (By Ms. Limbert)
Cross-Examination 429
10 (By Mr. Joseph Fraley)
Redirect Examination 434
11 (By Ms. Limbert)
12 LOX ALBERT "BURT" LOGAN, JR.
13 Direct Examination 437
(By Ms. O'Korn)
14 Cross-Examination 480
(By Mr. Joseph Fraley)
15
WITNESSES ON BEHALF OF THE DEFENDANT
16
DAVID KRATOVILLE
17
Direct Examination 503
18 (By Mr. Joshua Fraley)
Cross-Examination 524
19 (By Ms. Croskey)
Redirect Examination 532
20 (By Mr. Joshua Fraley)
Recross-Examination 536
21 (By Ms. Croskey)
22 - - -
23
24
25

3/19/2019 4 (330 - 333)
Page 330 Page 331
1 PROCEEDINGS 1 THE COURT: You may inquire.
2 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT, on the 19th day of 2 MR. O'KORN: So, Judge, because I'm eager
3 March, 2019, this cause came on for hearing before 3 to get to the testimony, I was remiss. I would like
4 the Honorable W. DAVID BRANSTOOL, Judge; and the 4 to introduce somebody who came along with Steven and
5 parties appearing in person and/or by counsel, as 5 our next witness, and that is Sara Porsia. She is an
6 hereinafter set forth, the following proceedings were 6 attorney with the Solicitor's Office in the United
7 had: 7 States Department of Interior. So she's traveled
8 --- 8 with these two witnesses and is here observing the
9 THE COURT: Are we ready to resume? 9 proceedings.
10 MR. O'KORN: We are. 10 THE COURT: Sure.
11 THE COURT: First witness. 11 ---
12 MR. O'KORN: Yes. Good morning, Judge. 12 STEVEN MORRIS,
13 Just for purposes of the record, this is Keith O'Korn 13 called as a witness on behalf of the Plaintiff, being
14 from the Ohio Attorney General's Office on behalf of 14 first duly sworn, testified as follows:
15 the Ohio History Connection. The History Connection, 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION
16 Your Honor, would like to call Steven Morris to the 16 BY MR. O'KORN:
17 stand. 17 Q. Mr. Morris, good morning.
18 THE COURT: All right. 18 A. Good morning.
19 (Witness sworn.) 19 Q. I'm going to ask you first about your
20 THE BAILIFF: Please state your name, 20 professional background. Where do you currently
21 spell your name and give your address, please. 21 work?
22 THE WITNESS: My name is Steven Morris. 22 A. I work at the U.S. National Park Service
23 The last name is M-O-R-R-I-S. And you want -- My 23 Headquarters in Washington and am the chief of the
24 home address is 708 East Capital Street Northeast, 24 Office of International Affairs.
25 Washington D.C. 25 Q. How long have you worked for the National
Page 332 Page 333
1 Park Service? 1 up to your current position.
2 A. Over 30 years. 2 A. Sure. I began in what's called the
3 Q. Now, before walking us through your 3 National Register Program, the National Register of
4 career, I want to ask you first about your post 4 Historic Places. I was in the Preservation and
5 secondary education. Can you describe the post 5 Planning Program, subsequently in the American
6 secondary education you've completed? 6 Battlefield Protection Program. These are all
7 A. Yes. I have a bachelor's degree from 7 cultural resources programs within the Headquarters
8 Oberlin College here in Ohio and a master's degree 8 of the National Park Service. I also worked in the
9 from George Washington University in Washington D.C. 9 Rivers, Trails and Conservation Assistance Program,
10 Q. By the way, where are you from? 10 and in late 2002 joined the Office of International
11 A. I was born in Bolivia -- my father was in 11 Affairs as the World Heritage coordinator for the
12 the foreign service -- and grew up in several 12 office and subsequently became the chief of the
13 different countries, but have lived in Washington for 13 office.
14 many years now. 14 Q. Now, regarding the World Heritage, were
15 Q. Now, I know you got this. I just want to 15 you a -- were you a World Heritage program officer
16 make sure this is clear. What is your current job 16 when you started in 2002?
17 title? 17 A. Yes. That's correct, yes, I was.
18 A. I'm the chief of the Office of 18 Q. And do you -- You're the chief now of this
19 International Affairs in the Headquarters of the 19 Office of International Affairs? Are you still the
20 National Park Service. 20 World Heritage Program officer?
21 Q. Now, I want to go back in time to the 21 A. Well, I carried on some of the duties that
22 beginning of your career with the National Park 22 I had at that time, and we sort of reorganized it.
23 Service. So starting with the early stages of your 23 There's several other people in the office that also
24 National Park Service career, can you describe the 24 work on the World Heritage program.
25 job positions and the general duties you had leading 25 Q. Now, you mentioned -- Just real quick back
3/19/2019 5 (334 - 337)
Page 334 Page 335
1 to -- you mentioned the Battlefield Protection 1 Q. Now, as a part of your job, do you -- and
2 Program. Were you ever the superintendent of any 2 there's been some testimony about the World Heritage
3 battlefields? 3 process so far. Do you review or analyze these
4 A. I was the acting superintendent of the 4 nomination dossiers that would eventually be
5 Fredericksburg & Spotsylvania National Military Park 5 submitted to the World Heritage Centre?
6 in Virginia. I did that on a detail. 6 A. Yes, we do. We essentially provide
7 Q. What does your job as the chief of the 7 guidance and oversight to the proponents of the
8 Office of International Affairs involve? 8 sites, the ones who are actually writing the
9 A. Well, just to summarize it, the World 9 nominations. We review all the drafts. We're the
10 Heritage Program is a major program within our 10 staff office for the Assistant Secretary of the
11 office. We have several other programs. We assist 11 Interior. And so we perform that function.
12 parks in twinning with parks in other countries we 12 Q. In your job duties, have you ever attended
13 call the sister park program. We maintain bilateral 13 World Heritage Committee sessions?
14 agreements with counterpart agencies in other 14 A. Yes. The World Heritage Committee meets
15 countries. We exchange information, sometimes staff. 15 annually, and I've been to just about every session.
16 We run the International Volunteer and Parks Program, 16 I may have missed one or two in the -- since I joined
17 which allows foreign students and park professionals 17 the office in late 2002.
18 from other countries to do internships and 18 Q. So let me ask you this. Let's drill this
19 residencies in our national parks. 19 down a little bit. When you have attended these
20 We host international delegations and 20 sessions, have you attended -- In what capacity have
21 visiting officials from other countries. There's a 21 you attended those sessions?
22 lot of interest in the U.S. National Park Service 22 A. Myself and several members of my staff are
23 from overseas. We're one of the oldest, if not the 23 there as part of the official U.S. delegation. We
24 oldest, national parks agency in the world. So we do 24 are accredited to be at the meetings, so we're
25 all of those programs. 25 delegates. When the United States was on the World
Page 336 Page 337
1 Heritage Committee, one of the 21 countries serving 1 to identify and help preserve and promote the world's
2 as a member of the committee, we had additional 2 most significant cultural and natural heritage sites.
3 responsibilities because we're having to vote and 3 It also does this in part through the World Heritage
4 basically interact more than when we're there. When 4 list, which is famous now for the most outstanding
5 the U.S. is not on the committee, we're there as an 5 cultural and natural sites around the planet.
6 observer delegation. 6 Q. Was the -- Is it fair to say that this
7 Q. So in the past 17 years give or take, can 7 convention sort of created the concept of the list?
8 you give the judge a sense of what time you would 8 A. Yes, absolutely.
9 have been there as part of the voting delegation 9 Q. And how about, like, the phrase World
10 versus the observing delegation? 10 Heritage? Would that have originated out of this
11 A. We -- we ran and were elected to be on the 11 convention or --
12 committee. From 2005 we served a four-year term 12 A. It did.
13 until 2009. All the other times we've been there as 13 Q. Okay. You mentioned that the United
14 an observer delegation. 14 States ratified this convention? Did I get that
15 Q. Okay. Mr. Morris, I want to transition 15 right?
16 and talk about World Heritage generally. First, what 16 A. Yes. The Senate ratified.
17 is UNESCO? 17 Q. What is the term for the countries that
18 A. It's the United Nations Educational 18 ratify the convention?
19 Scientific and Cultural Organization. 19 A. Yes. They're considered state parties to
20 Q. And what is the World Heritage Convention? 20 the convention -- or they're referred to as state
21 A. The World Heritage Convention is an 21 parties.
22 international treaty. The United States was the 22 Q. Now, for a country to ratify this
23 first country to ratify it. In the park service, we 23 convention, does the country have to have any sort of
24 like to think of it as the global expression of the 24 understanding or willingness of how it views these
25 national park idea. It's -- Essentially its aim is 25 World Heritage sites?
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Page 338 Page 339
1 A. Yes. Particularly, if a country chooses 1 A. No.
2 to nominate sites within its own territory to the 2 Q. Can you give the judge just a few examples
3 World Heritage list, they have to pledge to preserve 3 of some of the World Heritage sites from the world?
4 those sites in perpetuity. 4 A. Yes. The ones you would expect, the Taj
5 Q. What is the World Heritage list? 5 Mahal, the Serengeti, Machu Picchu in Peru. So it's
6 A. Well, I'd say, in short, it's a list of 6 all the most iconic -- the Grand Canyon in the United
7 the most significant cultural and natural places -- 7 States.
8 heritage places on the planet that have been deemed, 8 Q. All right. I'm going to have you turn to
9 through a formal process, to possess outstanding 9 Exhibit 29.
10 universal value. 10 MR. O'KORN: May I approach the witness,
11 Q. We'll get to this a little bit later. But 11 Judge?
12 in a nutshell, just generally, what does "outstanding 12 THE COURT: Sure.
13 universal value" mean? 13 MR. O'KORN: I may be able to --
14 A. Essentially it means that a site has the 14 BY MR. O'KORN:
15 significance -- culture or natural significance which 15 Q. Mr. Morris, I want to now turn and talk
16 transcends natural boundaries to become the heritage 16 about the operational guidelines for the
17 of all humanity. 17 implementation of the World Heritage list. Before
18 Q. Do you know generally -- Do you know 18 you you have State's Exhibit 29. What is this
19 roughly how many World -- how many sites are on the 19 document? And I realize it's roughly 175 pages long.
20 World Heritage list worldwide? 20 But just generally, what is contained in that
21 A. I believe it's 1,090, thereabouts. 21 exhibit?
22 Q. And how about in the United States? How 22 A. Essentially, it's the policy document to
23 many sites are on the list? 23 implement the convention text. It's the rules of the
24 A. We have 23 designated sites on the list. 24 road, the guidebook that drills down and explains the
25 Q. Are there any in Ohio? 25 broad concepts that are in the convention text. And
Page 340 Page 341
1 it's essentially a source that every country that 1 bottom of Page 25 and then through the top of --
2 participates in the World Heritage Convention uses to 2 A. Yes, that's correct.
3 guide its participation. 3 Q. -- 26?
4 Q. Is it fair to say that this is the guide 4 How many criteria must a property meet to
5 that you would use to -- when you review and analyze 5 establish outstanding universal value?
6 these nomination dossiers? 6 A. At least one. There is a caveat with
7 A. Yes. 7 criterion No. 6 for association with ideas that are
8 Q. So you're familiar with this document? 8 advanced universal value, and that is that the
9 A. Yes, I am. 9 committee has a policy that when you're nominating a
10 Q. And you keep it in your office, for 10 property on the basis of criterion 6, they prefer to
11 example? 11 see it also -- another criteria used as well.
12 A. I do. 12 Q. Now, to be deemed of outstanding universal
13 Q. You use it as part of your job duties as 13 value, are there any other conditions a property must
14 the chief of the Office of International Affairs? 14 also meet?
15 A. Yes. 15 A. Yes. It must meet the conditions of
16 Q. Now, you mentioned outstanding universal 16 integrity and authenticity as well as protection and
17 value. And I'm going to refer you to Pages 25 and 26 17 management.
18 of Exhibit 29, and in particular, bullet point 77. 18 Q. So just to give us a -- I'm going to have
19 A. Yes. 19 you turn to Page 26 in the same exhibit. And
20 Q. Are there criteria, Mr. Morris, in the 20 starting with bullet point 79 on 26 and then going
21 guidelines that the World Heritage Committee 21 through Page 29, are those the conditions and the
22 considers when it's deciding if a property has 22 criteria-associated conditions you just mentioned?
23 outstanding universal value? 23 A. Yes, they are.
24 A. Yes. There are ten criteria. 24 Q. Now, is it your understanding that a
25 Q. And are those set forth there at the 25 property has to meet these authenticity, integrity,
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1 protection and management conditions to be considered 1 decade or so. So this is an inventory of cultural
2 for outstanding universal value? 2 and natural sites that the country considers has the
3 A. Yes. 3 potential for meeting the criteria and being suitable
4 Q. Now, let's turn to how the nomination 4 for inscription on the World Heritage list.
5 process works for a site to be inscribed on the list. 5 Q. So you mentioned something I meant to
6 What -- I'll say, what persons or parties can 6 bring up before, the distinction between natural and
7 actually submit nomination files to the World 7 cultural in the World Heritage lexicon. What's the
8 Heritage Centre? 8 distinction between the sites? These would be those
9 A. It has to come from the responsible 9 two different breakdowns.
10 government entity. So in the United States, it's the 10 A. Well, it has to do with the values. Some
11 Department of the Interior, and the responsibility is 11 sites are significant for cultural values:
12 delegated from the Secretary of the Interior to the 12 Independence Hall, for example, in the United States,
13 Assistant Secretary for Fish, Wildlife and Parks. 13 the Statue of Liberty, versus sites that are
14 Q. So I take it, then, the Ohio History 14 significant for their natural values, Yosemite
15 Connection, for example, they themselves cannot 15 National Park, Yellowstone National Park. So the
16 submit a nomination filed directly to the World 16 convention recognizes both sets of values. And the
17 Heritage Centre? 17 criteria -- the ten criteria that I referred to
18 A. That's correct. 18 previously are broken out according to those lists of
19 Q. Okay. So let's start along the process 19 values.
20 here of how a site is inscribed. What's the 20 Q. So let's move on from the tentative list
21 tentative list? 21 to this nomination file. Once a property is on a
22 A. The tentative list is a requirement of the 22 tentative list, what's the next step if a property is
23 World Heritage Committee. Each country is required 23 going to go along this process to be inscribed?
24 to prepare a list of properties which it considers 24 A. There's a formal process that's spelled
25 eligible for inscription, so -- within the next 25 out in our regulations, the program. The Assistant
Page 344 Page 345
1 Secretary's Office can convene the Federal 1 dossier is completed and as you had talked about
2 Interagency Panel for World Heritage, which is an 2 before, the assistant secretary at the Department of
3 advisory group made up of federal agencies that 3 Interior would make a decision to submit this dossier
4 reviews the tentative list sites and makes 4 to the World Heritage Centre. What happens then?
5 recommendations to the assistant secretary about 5 And I'm speaking in generalities right now.
6 which sites should be selected to prepare a 6 A. Okay. There's a review process. There
7 nomination authorization. There's a formal 7 are two advisory bodies on the World Heritage
8 authorization of a nomination, which requires 8 Committee. For cultural properties, it's the
9 issuance of federal registry notices. 9 International Council for Monuments and Sites. Their
10 Q. So once an authorization to submit a 10 charge is to evaluate the nominations and to render a
11 nomination has been noticed, after sent to the 11 judgment, a recommendation for the committee as to
12 federal register, who is the -- what entity begins 12 whether the property meets the criteria.
13 the process of drafting this nomination file? 13 It's a long process. It involves an
14 A. The proponent of the property owner or the 14 on-site visit to the property by a representative
15 manager of the site is responsible for drafting the 15 from that organization. Also involves sending the
16 nomination, working closely with my office, which 16 nomination dossier around to expert -- subject matter
17 I -- as I previously stated, provides guidance and 17 experts that are members of the organization. They
18 oversight to ensure that the nomination is going to 18 have a panel meeting where they make a decision as to
19 meet the standards of the World Heritage Committee. 19 whether they believe the property meets the criteria,
20 Q. So we talked -- We're talking about the 20 and then they make the recommendation to the World
21 nomination file. Is there another word that is in 21 Heritage Committee which has the final decision.
22 the World Heritage lexicon for a nomination file? 22 Q. And I know we've got a lot of terms.
23 A. Yes. It's often called a nomination 23 World Heritage Centre, World Heritage Committee, can
24 dossier. 24 you give the judge an idea of what the difference is.
25 Q. Okay. So let's say that the nomination 25 A. Yeah. The World Heritage Centre is the
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1 secretariat, if you will. It's the staff for the 1 put a bow on this, what's your understanding of the
2 World Heritage Committee. So the World Heritage 2 Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks? Is it being
3 Committee is often referred to as the governing body 3 nominated as a cultural site or a natural site?
4 of the convention. The secretariat is their staff at 4 A. Cultural site.
5 the World Heritage Centre, which is based in UNESCO. 5 Q. And can one presume that ICOMOS will be
6 Q. You mentioned this -- that once the 6 the advisory body --
7 completed dossier would go to the World Heritage 7 A. Yes.
8 Centre, that it would go through this evaluation. 8 Q. -- that would review the app if it made it
9 What is the name -- You may have mentioned it, and I 9 there?
10 just didn't hear you. What's the name of the 10 A. Yes.
11 advisory body that would conduct that evaluation and 11 Q. So -- Okay. So now the dossier, along
12 give a recommendation? 12 with, I think you testified, a recommendation from
13 A. It's the International Council on 13 ICOMOS goes to the World Heritage Committee. Then
14 Monuments and Sites. It's often referred to as 14 what?
15 ICOMOS or ICOMOS. There's a different advisory body 15 A. Well, at the annual session of the
16 for natural properties. 16 committee, they have time devoted on their agenda to
17 Q. Let's draw that out real quick. So the 17 review all of the nominations that have been
18 ICOMOS advisory body, what types of properties do 18 submitted, you know, in the previous year and that
19 they evaluate and review? 19 have been reviewed and evaluated by the advisory
20 A. Any properties that are being proposed on 20 bodies. And there's a formal presentation by the
21 the basis of the six cultural criterion. So there 21 advisory body of their view of the site and whether
22 are sometimes properties that are proposed for both 22 it meets the criteria. And then the committee
23 natural and cultural values. In that case, both 23 deliberates and makes a decision as to whether the
24 advisory bodies review the nomination. 24 site should be inscribed on the World Heritage list.
25 Q. And we'll get to this later. But just to 25 Q. So when they deliberate and make a
Page 348 Page 349
1 decision, what are the options in terms of a result? 1 are reviewed every year. So I would say it's in that
2 A. They have -- They can say -- They can 2 neighborhood, 30 to 35 maybe.
3 inscribe it, they can refer it, which is -- means 3 Q. So you mentioned, though, in the last 17
4 sending it back to the country that submitted the 4 years you've either been a part of the World Heritage
5 nomination for -- Generally, referrals are for minor 5 Committee as a delegation for voting in '05 to '09
6 adjustments, minor revisions in the nomination 6 and then as an observer --
7 dossier. The country can then resubmit it within a 7 A. Right.
8 three-year period. They can defer the nomination, 8 Q. -- in the other capacity.
9 which is reserved for more significant changes in the 9 Give me a sense of, you know, on an
10 nomination. And generally, if a nomination is 10 average basis year to year how many -- you went
11 deferred, it has to -- it essentially becomes like a 11 through the four options. How many of these total
12 whole new nomination. 12 nomination dossiers that are actually submitted and
13 And then the final option is a do not 13 considered by the World Heritage Committee -- about
14 inscribe option, where they think the site just 14 how many get approved on a percentage basis?
15 simply does not have outstanding universal value and 15 A. I'd say about three-quarters, about
16 no amount of revision or rewriting or changing the 16 75 percent.
17 premise for the nomination is going to produce a good 17 Q. So let's now turn to once a site is
18 outcome. So four different choices. 18 inscribed on the list. Can you kind of compare and
19 Q. Thank you. You testified you were a part 19 contrast what it would mean for a site once the
20 of this delegation from the U.S. that actually sat on 20 inscription occurs. And other than putting a sign up
21 the World Heritage Committee from 2005 to 2009. 21 in front of the property, what effect would it have
22 About how many of these evaluations from these 22 on the property being inscribed on the list?
23 advisory boards would you have reviewed in a given 23 A. Well, I think the main effect is just the
24 year? 24 prestige of being included on a list of the most
25 A. Well, typically, there are about 30 that 25 significant cultural and natural sites on the planet.
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1 That's the main thing. You know, there is a 1 A. No, absolutely not. The ownership -- It
2 perception that additional visitation ensues when a 2 remains in its original ownership. Addition to --
3 site is added to the World Heritage list. 3 Inclusion on the World Heritage list does not change
4 Q. Does -- In your experience, do you notice, 4 the ownership in any way.
5 does the press publicize -- 5 Q. Let's transition, Mr. Morris, and talk
6 A. Yes. 6 about the U.S. sites that have been inscribed on the
7 Q. -- an inscription? 7 World Heritage list in the past and the circumstances
8 A. There's -- Generally -- Especially in the 8 surrounding those inscriptions. And first a little
9 local press, there's generally a lot of publicity 9 bit of background. So you testified about what
10 about it. 10 UNESCO is and what the World Heritage Committee is.
11 Q. Does the National Park Service or 11 Are those one in the same as you understand it,
12 the -- I'll say the Department of Interior, do 12 UNESCO and the World Heritage Committee?
13 they -- do they inform the public -- 13 A. No. No. We've described it as the -- the
14 A. Yes. 14 World Heritage Convention is a standalone
15 Q. -- if a site gets inscribed in the U.S.? 15 international agreement. The secretariat is housed
16 A. Yes. Typically, the Department of 16 at UNESCO, but it's a separate -- legally speaking,
17 Interior will release a -- will make a press release 17 it's separate thing from the U.S. Gov.
18 about it with a quote from the secretary. And the 18 Q. Is the United States a member of UNESCO as
19 Park Service also will publicize it on our web page. 19 we sit here today?
20 We have an Office of International Affairs web page 20 A. No. No, we are not.
21 that lists all the U.S. World Heritage sites when we 21 Q. When did the United States withdraw from
22 add the site to our web page. 22 UNESCO?
23 Q. Mr. Morris, who owns the site? Does 23 A. At the end of last year, December.
24 ownership change once a site gets inscribed to the 24 Q. Do you know, was there any notification
25 list? 25 given of the United States' intent to withdraw, or
Page 352 Page 353
1 was it just that day, January 1 was the first notice? 1 Q. Are there any dues -- Is there a dues
2 A. No. The State department, which made the 2 requirement for being a member of UNESCO, to your
3 decision to withdraw, announced that we would be 3 knowledge?
4 withdrawing a year in advance. 4 A. Yes, there is.
5 Q. All right. I want to go back now. And so 5 Q. Is the U.S. paying dues to UNESCO today?
6 prior to this year, was there any time period when 6 A. No.
7 the United States was not a member of UNESCO since it 7 Q. When did the United States stop paying
8 joined back in 1948? 8 dues to UNESCO?
9 A. Yep. During the Reagan Administration in 9 A. In 2011.
10 1948 we withdrew from UNESCO until 2003. So it was a 10 Q. From -- So from 2011 to present, has the
11 19-year period, I believe, when we were not members 11 United States submitted any nominations for
12 of UNESCO. 12 inscription to the World Heritage list?
13 Q. During that time, did the United States -- 13 A. Yes, we have.
14 or I'll say the Department of Interior -- nominate 14 Q. And then from 2011 to present, have any
15 sites for inclusion on the list? 15 sites in the U.S. been selected for inscription on
16 A. Yes, we did. We nominated and had six 16 the World Heritage list?
17 sites successfully inscribed on the World Heritage 17 A. Yes. Several.
18 list during that period. We actually chaired the 18 Q. So what -- On that last point, can you
19 World Heritage Committee during that period. 19 tell the judge the properties that have been
20 Q. So it's your testimony that six sites 20 inscribed and the years?
21 would have been inscribed roughly -- 21 A. Yes. In -- Well, we had -- in 2014, the
22 A. I believe so. 22 Poverty Point -- Monumental Earthworks at Poverty
23 Q. -- six sites during that 19-year period 23 Point in Louisiana were inscribed. In 2015, the San
24 when the U.S. was not a member of UNESCO? 24 Antonio Missions, in San Antonio, Texas, were
25 A. Yes. 25 inscribed. Those are the two that have been
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1 successfully inscribed. 1 UNESCO means for our participation in the World
2 We have submitted -- We submitted a 2 Heritage program.
3 nomination for the buildings of Frank Lloyd Wright, 3 Q. Did you have a role in drafting that?
4 which was referred back and has been resubmitted now 4 A. Yes. Myself and my staff drafted this in
5 for consideration in the next session of the 5 consultation with the State Department.
6 committee. 6 Q. All right. I want to transition and talk
7 Q. As of today, is the United States still 7 about just briefly the World Heritage nomination
8 participating in the World Heritage convention? 8 dossiers that you've actually been involved with
9 A. Yes, we are. 9 reviewing and analyzing prior to submission. How
10 Q. Can -- As of today, can the U.S. nominate 10 many nomination dossiers have you reviewed and
11 sites for inclusion on the list? 11 participated in drafting?
12 A. Yes. 12 A. Five.
13 Q. I'm going to turn you now to State's 13 Q. And can you list those for the judge?
14 Exhibit 39. 14 A. Yes, I can. Starting with in 2009, we
15 A. Is that this one? 15 submitted a nomination for the Northwestern Hawaiian
16 MR. O'KORN: May I approach, Judge. 16 Islands also known as Papahanaumokuakea Marine
17 THE COURT: Sure. 17 National Monument and Mount Vernon in Virginia.
18 BY MR. O'KORN: 18 Subsequently, I was involved in the Monumental
19 Q. Mr. Morris, I'm going to give you a minute 19 Earthworks at Poverty Point in Louisiana, San Antonio
20 just to look at that. 20 Missions in Texas and the Frank Lloyd Wright
21 A. Yes. 21 nomination.
22 Q. Can you identify that exhibit. 22 Q. So of those five, just to put a bow on it,
23 A. Yes. This is taken from the Office of 23 how many of those five that you've worked were
24 International Affairs' web page, and it's a question 24 actually inscribed on the list?
25 and answer sheet on what the U.S. withdrawal from 25 A. Three of them were.
Page 356 Page 357
1 Q. Okay. So three of the five. Now, the two 1 site?
2 others you mentioned, Frank Lloyd Wright you said has 2 A. I would mention the two in the United
3 been -- 3 States right off the bat, the Cahokia Mounds in
4 A. It was revised and resubmitted. 4 southern Illinois and also the monuments at Poverty
5 Q. And how about the Mount Vernon? 5 Point. There are additional ones that I think could
6 A. Mount Vernon was withdrawn. 6 be considered comparable, the Nazca Lines in Peru,
7 Q. Now, I want to ask you a little bit about 7 for example.
8 World Heritage sites in comparison to the Hopewell 8 Q. Now, those three that you mentioned, is it
9 Ceremonial Earthworks. There's been a lot of 9 your testimony that they're identical sites to what
10 testimony. Are you familiar with what the term 10 we have here?
11 Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks refers to? 11 A. No. No, absolutely not. The other
12 A. Yes. 12 ones -- for example, Cahokia is from a different
13 Q. Is it your understanding -- just to try to 13 civilization, as is the earthworks at Poverty Point.
14 speed things along, it's the site at Fort Ancient and 14 So they're different civilizations. They have
15 maybe five sites at the Hopewell Culture National 15 different attributes. Just generally speaking, I
16 Park and then two sites here, the Octagon and the 16 would place them in the same universe as the sites --
17 Great Circle? 17 the Hopewell sites.
18 A. That's correct. 18 Q. With those three sites you mentioned and
19 Q. Okay. Would you be able to 19 the Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks, are there any --
20 give -- There's been testimony about World Heritage 20 how would you contrast them factually for the judge?
21 sites like the Grand Canyon and Machu Picchu, The 21 I know you said they're comparable in these certain
22 Acropolis and so forth and so on. Would you be able 22 aspects. How about contrasting them?
23 to give the judge a sense factually what would be a 23 A. Well, I think the main difference has to
24 couple of comparable World Heritage sites to what we 24 do with the fact that they're very different time
25 have here with the Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks 25 periods, different civilizations that they represent.
3/19/2019 11 (358 - 361)
Page 358 Page 359
1 I think the -- You know, they have unique qualities. 1 witness --
2 The significance -- Part of the significance of the 2 THE COURT: Sure.
3 Hopewell sites has to do with the geometry, the size, 3 MR. O'KORN: -- and hand him an exhibit?
4 the standard units of measure. So the other sites 4 I've marked it Exhibit 43.
5 have different attributes. The Cahokia Mounds was a 5 ---
6 larger urban center. Researchers believe it had a 6 And, thereupon, State's Exhibit No. 43 was
7 population of 40,000. So it was essentially a city, 7 marked for purposes of identification.
8 which is different than the ceremonial earthworks 8 ---
9 here. 9 BY MR. O'KORN:
10 Q. Let's shift gears now and talk about the 10 Q. Mr. Morris, I've handed you what's been
11 Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks nomination process to 11 marked Plaintiff's Exhibit 43. Can you identify this
12 the World Heritage list. When did you first become 12 document?
13 aware of the Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks sites and 13 A. Yes. This was a publication that
14 the potential for World Heritage inscription? 14 essentially summarized our tentative list at that
15 A. I would say it was in 2006 or 2007. We 15 time, the 2008 tentative list.
16 were putting together the tentative list. We issued 16 Q. Is the Department's position set forth in
17 a tentative list in 2008, submitted it to the World 17 this document explaining the listing of the Hopewell
18 Heritage Committee that year. And several years of 18 Ceremonial Earthworks to the tentative list?
19 work went into putting it together, and we had an 19 A. Yes.
20 application process for properties that were 20 Q. And where would that be? I know -- We
21 interested in being considered for potential or 21 have a three-page document here. Where would that be
22 possible nomination to the World Heritage list. And 22 in this document?
23 we received an application from the -- at that time 23 A. Well, I think it's the verbiage on
24 it was the Ohio Historical Society. 24 Page 12, which -- I mean, essentially it's the
25 MR. O'KORN: Judge, may I approach the 25 rationale for why we thought that this property was
Page 360 Page 361
1 eligible or suitable for inscription to the World 1 all the sites, so there was a touring aspect to it.
2 Heritage list. 2 Q. Are you familiar with some of the ICOMOS
3 Q. And I know you said "we thought." Do you 3 experts that attended that World Heritage tour?
4 mean the Department of Interior, the assistant 4 A. Yes, I am.
5 secretary you mentioned? 5 Q. Are you aware of whether the president of
6 A. Yes. That's right. 6 ICOMOS attended that?
7 Q. Are you familiar with -- There's been some 7 A. Yes. Mr. Gustavo Araoz, who was then the
8 testimony about a World Heritage tour with experts 8 president of ICOMOS, participated.
9 from ICOMOS that visited the World Heritage -- or the 9 Q. So after you debriefed with Phyllis Ellen,
10 Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks in 2013. Are you 10 what was your understanding of the participants'
11 familiar with that tour? 11 views as to whether these properties were worthy of
12 A. Yes. 12 inscription?
13 Q. Did you go on it personally? 13 MS. LIMBERT: Objection. Hearsay.
14 A. No. A member of my staff was there. 14 THE COURT: Response?
15 Q. And who was that? 15 MR. O'KORN: I'm laying a foundation to
16 A. Phyllis Ellen. 16 show the investigation that not only the Department
17 Q. So Phyllis Ellen from your office attended 17 of Interior conducted prior to its determination
18 this World Heritage tour we've heard in roughly 2013? 18 that -- we've already had the 2015 -- or forgive
19 A. That's correct. 19 me -- yeah, the 2015 letter that says the golf course
20 Q. Did you speak with her afterwards -- 20 has to be removed from the property in order for
21 A. I did. 21 there to be a World Heritage inscription. So I'm
22 Q. -- about the tour? 22 offering it to show the investigation the National
23 A. Yeah. I would -- We -- It was more of a 23 Park Service undertook. Plus there's already been
24 workshop, I think, than a tour. It was workshop on 24 testimony about this prior.
25 authenticity and integrity. I mean, they did visit 25 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
3/19/2019 12 (362 - 365)
Page 362 Page 363
1 I'll allow it. 1 issues with any World Heritage inscription of these
2 BY MR. O'KORN: 2 properties?
3 Q. What was your understanding of the 3 A. Yes. Yes. We had been in more or less
4 participants' views of whether there were any 4 regular contact with the Ohio History Connection
5 impediments to inscription? 5 about the possibility of nominating the Hopewell
6 A. They did flag the golf course as an 6 Earthworks.
7 impediment. 7 Q. Give the judge a sense of what those
8 Q. I'm going to turn your attention now to 8 conversations were before this letter was drafted.
9 History Connection Exhibit 28. So it's going to be 9 A. Well, essentially it had to do with what
10 in that same binder. I want you to take a 10 steps would need to be taken to position this site to
11 moment -- a moment to look at that, Mr. Morris. 11 go forward to be authorized to prepare a nomination.
12 That's State's Exhibit 28. Can you identify this 12 The discussions included a discussion about
13 letter. 13 impediments like the golf course, that that was a
14 A. Yes. This was a letter that was sent by 14 problem. That had been identified as an issue that
15 the then principal deputy assistant secretary of 15 could potentially harm the nomination, so there needs
16 Fish, Wildlife and Parks to the executive director of 16 to be some kind of a resolution.
17 the Ohio History Connection. 17 Q. Is it fair to say that the content of this
18 Q. Did you have a role in the drafting 18 letter memorializes those conversations you had
19 process of this letter? 19 leading up to it?
20 A. Yes. Myself and my staff drafted this 20 A. Yes. That's right.
21 letter for the assistant secretary's office. 21 Q. I want to -- In particular, I want to draw
22 Q. Now, prior to -- I want to take a step 22 your attention to the last paragraph on the first
23 back now in time. Prior to the time that this letter 23 page. So go down there. And it's basically the
24 was issued, had the office that you work in and 24 third or fourth -- It's the third line up. There's a
25 History Connection had discussions about concerns and 25 comment that says: These experts strongly believe
Page 364 Page 365
1 that this current use -- which is referring to the 1 caboodle, so to speak. Is it -- You were involved in
2 golf course on the Octagon -- is inappropriate. 2 the drafting process. Do I take that to mean the
3 Do you have an understanding of what 3 entire nomination would not go forward if the
4 condition for inscription the experts are referring 4 situation is not resolved?
5 to there when they say the golf course is an 5 A. Yes. That's correct.
6 inappropriate use of that property? 6 Q. It's not that the Octagon will be yanked
7 A. Yes. I think that goes to the condition 7 out of the nomination and the other seven properties
8 of authenticity. 8 go forward?
9 Q. Let's go to the top of the first paragraph 9 A. That's correct. The Octagon is really a
10 on the second page. The first sentence says: The 10 very important component of the nomination.
11 Department of Interior will not select Hopewell 11 Q. Let's turn to the 2015 ICOMOS advisory
12 Ceremonial Earthworks' nomination to go forward for 12 mission to the sites. What was that?
13 UNESCO World Heritage inscription until this 13 A. That was a formal advisory mission as
14 situation is remedied. What situation is being 14 requested through the World Heritage Centre, the
15 referred to there? 15 secretariat. Our office made the request on behalf
16 A. The presence of the golf course on the 16 of the Ohio History Connection. So essentially it
17 Octagon Earthworks. 17 was a request to have an ICOMOS expert visit the site
18 Q. Is that -- To the best of your knowledge, 18 and advise us on some of the issues that we were
19 is that set forth at the bottom of the next 19 facing when we decided to go forward with the
20 paragraph? 20 nomination.
21 A. Yes. 21 Q. Mr. Morris, I'll have you turn to State's
22 Q. Back to that sentence that I read when it 22 Exhibit 24, which is going to be in the other binder
23 says: Therefore, the Department of Interior will not 23 near the very end. I know these things are hard
24 select Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks. We talked 24 to -- So this will be State's Exhibit 24.
25 about that is -- that's sort of the whole kit and 25 MR. O'KORN: Can I approach, judge?
3/19/2019 13 (366 - 369)
Page 366 Page 367
1 THE COURT: Sure. 1 A. That's correct.
2 MR. O'KORN: I may be able to help him get 2 Q. Did you attend this mission?
3 there quicker. 3 A. Yes, I did most of it. Not the entire
4 BY MR. O'KORN: 4 thing.
5 Q. Mr. Morris, I know you testified that -- I 5 Q. And can you give the judge a general sense
6 believe that the office that you're a chief of asked 6 of what the mission entailed, where you went, what
7 ICOMOS to do an advisory mission to these sites. Is 7 was discussed?
8 that true? 8 A. We toured all of the sites, and we
9 A. Well, we asked the World Heritage Centre 9 discussed all of these three issues that are outlined
10 who then asked ICOMOS. 10 in this letter and ways that they could be resolved.
11 Q. I see. You mentioned you did it on behalf 11 Q. I'm going to have you turn to -- I'm going
12 of the History Connection. 12 to have you transition to Volume II now.
13 A. That's correct. 13 MR. O'KORN: May I approach?
14 Q. Explain that. 14 THE COURT: Sure.
15 A. Well, it's part of the formal process. 15 BY MR. O'KORN:
16 It's -- When a country needs advisory -- an advisory 16 Q. So I have placed before the witness
17 mission, one -- the country has to go through the 17 Exhibit 26 -- State's Exhibit No. 26. But before I
18 World Heritage Centre. So the individual owner of 18 ask you about that particular exhibit though, back to
19 the site cannot ask for assistance. It has to come 19 the mission. Who did you have discussions with about
20 through the government. 20 the Octagon and, in particular, the golf course when
21 Q. You had mentioned the purposes of the 21 you were on this mission?
22 mission. Are they spelled out in this letter? 22 A. We met with staff from the Ohio History
23 A. Yes. That's correct. 23 Connection. We met with -- Let's see. Who else did
24 Q. Is it, like, bullet points one, two and 24 we meet with? Those were the main people we met
25 three; is that fair to say? 25 with.
Page 368 Page 369
1 Q. Did you meet with Margaret Gowen? 1 A. She's a member of ICOMOS. And she was
2 A. Yes, I did. She was the Irish 2 selected by ICOMOS as their representative.
3 archaeologist that was representing ICOMOS. 3 Q. I'm going to have you turn to -- turn to
4 Q. Any discussions with her that you can 4 Page 44 through -- 44 of the ICOMOS report. So 44,
5 recall? 5 do you see where it says: Justification of
6 A. Well, it was a few years ago. So I mean, 6 outstanding universal value?
7 as I said, we discussed the -- we discussed the golf 7 A. Yes.
8 course. We discussed some of these other issues. 8 Q. And then continuing on through Page 45 and
9 Q. So turning to State's Exhibit 26. Can you 9 into 46?
10 identify that document. 10 A. Yes.
11 A. Yes. This was this report that Margaret 11 Q. Generally, what was your understanding of
12 Gowen produced, which contained the -- her 12 what -- Margaret Gowen's view as to whether these
13 recommendations about how to deal with the issues 13 properties are worthy of World Heritage inscription?
14 that we had -- we had asked ICOMOS to advise us on. 14 A. I came away believing that she -- she
15 Q. So have you seen this report before today? 15 strongly supported --
16 A. Yes, I have. 16 MR. CRAWFORD: Objection. Hearsay.
17 Q. Are you familiar with it? 17 MR. O'KORN: Here's why it's not hearsay,
18 A. Yes. 18 a couple different reasons. First, this is going
19 Q. Have you read it? 19 to -- They have the burden of proof. They have to
20 A. Yes. 20 show that the taking was not necessary. They have to
21 Q. Would you have a copy of it in your file 21 show that the resolution my client passed was an
22 in your office? 22 abuse of discretion. So I'm offering, one, to
23 A. Yes. Yes. 23 contravene or contradict that contention, but also
24 Q. Let's talk about Margaret Gowen for a 24 I'm offering it to show the due diligence and the
25 second. Do you know, was she on or is she on ICOMOS? 25 investigation that my client did leading up to make
3/19/2019 14 (370 - 373)
Page 370 Page 371
1 the decision to pass that resolution. 1 that my client asked this organization -- his
2 THE COURT: How is -- The resolution 2 employer, the office, to -- asked the World Heritage
3 you're talking about, has that been admitted into 3 Centre to bring an investigator out to do an
4 evidence yet? 4 investigation. So I'm going back to the first
5 MR. O'KORN: It will be through -- 5 objection I have, which is offered to show the due
6 THE COURT: I think we're assuming facts 6 diligence in the investigation that my client asked
7 not in evidence, right? 7 for and that Mr. Morris testified he wrote the letter
8 MR. O'KORN: Well, let me say this. 8 to the World Heritage Centre.
9 THE COURT: I'm not saying you can't ever 9 THE COURT: But you asked him what -- to
10 get there. I'm just saying: If they're going to 10 speculate about what someone else thought as a result
11 object at this point, they have a valid issue with 11 of their review, right?
12 regard to this resolution not being offered. Is that 12 MR. O'KORN: I may be able to rephrase.
13 a disputed matter? Did they admit it in their 13 THE COURT: Okay. Rephrase.
14 pleadings? I mean, tell me -- 14 BY MR. O'KORN:
15 MR. O'KORN: With regard to the -- 15 Q. Is it your understanding that Pages 44
16 THE COURT: The resolution passed by the 16 through 46 of the ICOMOS report -- is that where the
17 Ohio History Connection. 17 author is outlining her rationale for why these
18 MR. O'KORN: My understanding -- and I'd 18 properties were worthy of inscription?
19 have to get the answer out -- is that they admitted 19 A. Yes.
20 we passed a resolution. And, Judge, while we look at 20 MR. O'KORN: So, Your Honor, I think this
21 the answer -- 21 will be referring to Paragraph 85 of our complaint
22 THE COURT: Sure. 22 which says --
23 MR. O'KORN: -- I just want to go back to 23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 the basic point that -- because there has been 24 MR. O'KORN: -- the Ohio History
25 testimony to this point. Mr. Morris has testified 25 Connection -- on October 18, 2018, History Connection
Page 372 Page 373
1 adopted a resolution declaring the necessity and its 1 was -- when it was amended in 2007, that language was
2 intention to appropriate. A copy of the resolution 2 specifically removed. And the --
3 is attached. So that would have been our verbiage. 3 THE COURT: It's still -- The passage of
4 THE COURT: Okay. They admitted your 4 the resolution still creates a rebuttable
5 answer, right? Paragraph 86 of Defendant's answer: 5 presumption, correct?
6 Defendant admits the allegations contained in 6 MR. CRAWFORD: That is correct.
7 Paragraph 85 of Plaintiff's petition. 7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. O'KORN: Yes. 8 MR. CRAWFORD: Of a preponderance of the
9 MR. CRAWFORD: If I may respond, Your 9 evidence of proof. So they have -- They go forward
10 Honor. 10 with 51 percent on the balance of the preponderance
11 THE COURT: Sure. 11 of the evidence, and we have to rebut. I agree with
12 MR. CRAWFORD: The question was clearly 12 that.
13 requesting hearsay regardless of whether the 13 THE COURT: So you have rephrased your
14 resolution was adopted or not. Second, it's 14 question, correct? But you have an objection as to
15 the -- counsel keeps referring to the abuse of 15 the way he rephrased the question?
16 discretion and the standard statute removed abuse of 16 MR. CRAWFORD: I still think he's asking
17 discretion when it was amended in 2007, and now the 17 what are the thoughts of the author of this document.
18 standard is a preponderance of the evidence. And so 18 MR. O'KORN: So I didn't ask that. I said
19 by their resolution, they have met their burden of a 19 where in the report, just to identify.
20 rebut -- excuse me -- by adopting the resolution, 20 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
21 they have a rebuttal of presumption that they've met 21 BY MR. O'KORN:
22 their burden of proof, that is, a preponderance of 22 Q. Turning to -- I'm going to have you turn
23 the evidence. And because if you look at the 23 to Page 34 of the same exhibit, 46.
24 statute, the statute in 2007 specifically referred to 24 MR. O'KORN: I think Mr. Morris was asking
25 abuse of discretion as the standard, and it 25 for an opportunity to explain one of his answers.
3/19/2019 15 (374 - 377)
Page 374 Page 375
1 THE COURT: There's no question before you 1 contained within it have been adopted.
2 right now. So he'll have a chance to ask you a 2 Q. I'm going to have you flip binders now and
3 question right now. 3 have you turn to State's Exhibit 10. Are we there?
4 BY MR. O'KORN: 4 A. Yes.
5 Q. So turning to Page 34 of State's Exhibit 5 Q. Great. Can you identify this document.
6 26, so Page 34. And you see bullet point 6.1? 6 A. Yes. This is the Federal Register notice
7 A. Yes. 7 announcing the authorization of the preparation of
8 Q. Is this where Margaret Gowen outlines her 8 the nomination for the Hopewell Ceremonial
9 recommendation with regards to the golf course's 9 Earthworks.
10 continued presence and its effect on the World 10 Q. The Department's rationale for this
11 Heritage nomination? 11 authorization, is it set forth within this registry
12 A. Yes. 12 notice?
13 Q. Now, this -- Their ICOMOS report that 13 A. Yes, it's explained.
14 you've been testifying about, does it have any 14 Q. What -- We've gone through the different
15 significance in the World Heritage process going 15 things that my client has done over the last three or
16 forward? 16 four years before this process, this World Heritage
17 A. Yes, it does. 17 workshop in 2013, the commissioning of this
18 Q. How so? Can you explain that. 18 report -- this ICOMOS mission and then the report
19 A. Well, I would say that it becomes part of 19 therefrom. Did any of my client's background work --
20 the official record of the nomination. If and when 20 did that factor into why they were selected --
21 the United States goes forward with this nomination, 21 A. Yes.
22 submits it to the World Heritage Committee, ICOMOS 22 Q. -- to be nominated -- to be authorized for
23 will begin their evaluation of the property. One of 23 a nomination?
24 the first things they will do is consult this report 24 A. Yes.
25 to determine whether or not the recommendations 25 Q. Can you elaborate on that.
Page 376 Page 377
1 A. Sure. I think that Ohio History 1 the nomination go forward if the golf course remains.
2 Connection demonstrated that they had a strong 2 Q. Why not?
3 interest in pursuing the nomination and that they 3 A. I think that this nomination
4 had -- they were undertaking it in a very serious 4 would -- would most likely not be successful. And
5 manner, they have the capacity and the resources to 5 given the amount of time and resources that go into
6 actually go forward with producing a nomination 6 preparing these nominations, we want to make sure
7 dossier. I might mention that nomination dossiers 7 we're focusing on a nomination that has a real chance
8 these days are large documents. They're expensive to 8 of succeeding.
9 produce. There's a lot of research and writing 9 Q. We've went through this due diligence that
10 involved. So undertaking the development of the 10 my client undertook in this investigation. Were any
11 nomination dossier is a serious endeavor, and we were 11 of those -- the 2013 workshop and the 2015 opinion by
12 persuaded that the Ohio History Connection was 12 Margaret Gowen, was that a factor in at all?
13 capable of doing it. 13 A. Yes.
14 Q. The -- I want to go back to Exhibit 28. 14 MR. O'KORN: Your Honor, I have no more
15 So back to 28. Is that letter there a true and 15 questions at this point.
16 accurate representation of the Department's position 16 THE COURT: All right. Cross-examination.
17 regarding the Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks 17 MR. CRAWFORD: Can we take a short recess,
18 nomination at that point in time? 18 Your Honor?
19 A. Yes. 19 THE COURT: Sure.
20 Q. If -- if the golf course remains on the 20 (Recess taken.)
21 site for the remainder of the term of the lease, will 21 THE COURT: Mr. Crawford, you may inquire.
22 you recommend to be the assistant secretary that 22 MR. CRAWFORD: Thank you, Your Honor.
23 nomination be sent to the World Heritage Centre? 23 ---
24 A. In my position as the chief of the Office 24 CROSS-EXAMINATION
25 of International Affairs, I would not recommend that 25

3/19/2019 16 (378 - 381)
Page 378 Page 379
1 BY MR. CRAWFORD: 1 A. I'm sorry. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. Mr. Morris, I don't think we got a 2 Q. That's all right. Not telling you how to
3 chance to meet. My name is Andy Crawford. I'm one 3 answer. Just a "yes" or a "no."
4 of the attorneys representing Moundbuilders Country 4 But you didn't visit anyone at
5 Club in this -- in this case. I just have some 5 Moundbuilders during that time?
6 questions for you relating to your testimony that you 6 A. That's correct.
7 gave here earlier this morning. 7 Q. Wouldn't it make sense if that's the
8 One of the things that -- You talked 8 primary issue involved at -- in terms of the success
9 several times about the necessity of the removal of 9 of this nomination, that you would want to talk to
10 the golf course in order to have the Hopewell 10 somebody there?
11 Ceremonial group nominated; is that correct? 11 A. Well, the point of the advisory mission
12 A. Yes. 12 was to get ICOMOS's views on the golf course. So
13 Q. One of the things that struck me was 13 that was really the point of the mission, was to get
14 you -- you were in Ohio, correct, in 2015, on the 14 ICOMOS's sense of whether, in the World Heritage
15 visitation? 15 context, if this would be a problem, and if so, how
16 A. Yes. 16 to deal with it.
17 Q. And that -- And by that point, that had 17 Q. But to deal with the problem, you have to
18 been identified as an issue, so to speak, with regard 18 deal with Moundbuilders, correct? Not you
19 to the nomination for World Heritage sites, correct? 19 personally, but someone does?
20 A. Yes. That's correct. 20 A. Yes. I think that's correct.
21 Q. And you indicated you talked with people 21 Q. And you were here in Ohio, correct?
22 of the Ohio History Connection, other members who 22 A. Uh-huh.
23 were there at the delegation? 23 Q. Isn't that right?
24 A. Uh-huh. 24 A. Yes, I was.
25 Q. You have to say "yes" or "no." 25 Q. And you had the opportunity to do that,
Page 380 Page 381
1 correct? 1 A. Yes.
2 A. I don't think it would have been my role 2 Q. Looking at the second paragraph, it
3 to do that. 3 says -- and I'll quote: The mission revealed that
4 Q. But you could have though? 4 achieving this will be complex and protracted. And
5 A. It would -- Well, it wasn't the purpose 5 the "this" they're referring to would be the removal
6 for my visit. 6 of the golf course from the site, correct?
7 Q. Was there anything that physically 7 A. That's correct.
8 prevented you from -- 8 Q. Then it goes on to read, quote: However,
9 A. No. 9 a phased approach is recommended and seems feasible.
10 Q. -- from suggesting through someone in the 10 It will provide security to all concerned while
11 mission that, "Let's go talk to Moundbuilders"? 11 ensuring that the goal will ultimately be achieved.
12 A. No. 12 Do you see that?
13 Q. The other aspect of -- and I think you 13 A. Yes.
14 referenced this with regard -- I'll have you -- Looks 14 Q. So when they're referring to a phased
15 like they took everything away from you. 15 approach, it's your understanding, isn't it, that the
16 A. No, they're down here. 16 phased approach means that the golf course doesn't
17 Q. It's Exhibit 26, which is the -- is it 17 have to be totally removed from the property in order
18 ICOMOS or ICOMOS? 18 for it to be submitted -- or for the Hopewell
19 A. People say -- 19 Ceremonial Earthworks to be submitted as a
20 Q. Toe-mae-toe, toe-mah-toe? 20 nomination?
21 A. Yes, exactly. 21 A. Yes. That's correct.
22 Q. If you could turn to Page 34. And I want 22 Q. So the golf course could still exist,
23 to talk to you a little bit about -- you had 23 however, and the nomination could go forward but
24 discussed 6.1, that paragraph, the overall 24 there has to be a plan for the removal of the golf
25 recommendations. Do you see that? 25 course, correct?
3/19/2019 17 (382 - 385)
Page 382 Page 383
1 A. Yes. That's correct. 1 MR. O'KORN: Objection. Speculation.
2 Q. So, for example, has there -- and as an 2 THE COURT: Overruled.
3 example, if Moundbuilders Country Club agreed that if 3 A. It might take care of that issue. I'm not
4 the World Heritage nomination was achieved it would 4 sure if it would, though.
5 vacate the golf course, wouldn't that be a plan that 5 Q. Well, we've been told that if we entered
6 would address the issue of the golf course? 6 into an agreement where we would turn the property
7 A. That would be a plan. I don't think that 7 over to -- agree to convey the property, sell the
8 would necessarily be an acceptable plan. 8 property to OHC -- or let me tell -- reach an
9 Q. Okay. And even if -- even if 9 agreement where OHC would buy out our lease, that
10 Moundbuilders committed, in a legally binding 10 that would be sufficient.
11 document, much like the lease that we signed in 1998, 11 MR. O'KORN: Objection. Facts not in
12 to vacate the course if World Heritage status was 12 evidence.
13 achieved, why would that prevent the nomination since 13 THE COURT: They're not in evidence. What
14 that addresses the very issue which you said prevents 14 are you asking? I'm not sure I understand.
15 a nomination from going forward? 15 MR. CRAWFORD: We'll move on.
16 A. Well, so you're saying -- 16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 Q. Can you repeat that. Probably not. But 17 BY MR. CRAWFORD:
18 I'll do my best. I guess what I'm saying is 18 Q. Now, the -- you -- I believe you testified
19 that -- that if the -- if Moundbuilders Country Club 19 that in 2006 you first became aware of the Hopewell
20 would sign a legally binding document, a contract, 20 Ceremonial Earthworks as a potential --
21 where it says if this site, Hopewell Ceremonial 21 A. That's correct.
22 Earthworks, nomination is accepted for inscription by 22 Q. -- for -- as being a potential nominee for
23 the World Heritage, that it would vacate the golf 23 World Heritage inscription, correct?
24 course, and therefore, they're legally bound to do 24 A. Yes.
25 so, wouldn't that take care of that issue? 25 Q. And at some point along the line -- Well,
Page 384 Page 385
1 when you became aware in 2006, isn't that true you 1 golf course on it that are World Heritage sites?
2 were aware there was a golf course on the Octagon 2 A. I don't know specifically if there are.
3 mound? 3 Q. Well, at some point after 2006, did that
4 A. Yes, I was. 4 become a concern for you?
5 Q. And with your experience in -- in the 5 A. That's correct.
6 application for World Heritage status, you knew that 6 Q. And you communicated that to the Ohio
7 would be a problem, correct? 7 History Connection, correct?
8 A. No. I wouldn't say that I knew at that 8 A. That's correct.
9 time it would be a problem. 9 Q. And I believe you referenced a letter in
10 Q. Let's say -- Would you agree with me you 10 2015?
11 strongly suspected it would be a problem? 11 A. Yes.
12 A. No, not really. I wouldn't agree with 12 Q. But you actually communicated that back
13 that. 13 then -- before then, didn't you?
14 Q. So you're saying -- 14 A. That's correct.
15 A. This was a preliminary assessment to put 15 MR. O'KORN: Can you specify? Before
16 these properties on the tentative list. We did not 16 when?
17 do a deep dive into all the possible issues that 17 MR. CRAWFORD: Before 2015.
18 would be associated with any given property. 18 A. Yes.
19 Q. But I thought you testified, to get on the 19 Q. And so before 2015, that had been
20 tentative list, properties are identified to be a 20 identified as a problem, and you indicated that to
21 likely nomination to the World Heritage -- 21 the Ohio History Connection, correct?
22 A. Yes. 22 A. Well, the issue was flagged at the
23 Q. -- correct? 23 workshop that was referred to previously.
24 A. That's correct. 24 Q. So that would be 2013?
25 Q. Do you know any other sites that a have a 25 A. That's correct.
3/19/2019 18 (386 - 389)
Page 386 Page 387
1 Q. And what was OHC's response to you when 1 report is kind of the Bible or the guidebook for
2 that was flagged as to what they were going to do? 2 obtaining many -- or showing a route toward an
3 A. They -- they agreed it would be something 3 approval of an application for nomination to World
4 that needed to be addressed. 4 Heritage status, correct?
5 Q. And what did OHC tell you they were going 5 A. I'm not sure I would characterize it
6 to do? 6 exactly that way.
7 A. I think they said they would be discussing 7 Q. I thought you testified that this is an
8 it with the Moundbuilders club. 8 advisory report that is prepared in order to assist
9 Q. Now, going back to Exhibit 26. Bear with 9 the applicant in presenting a nomination dossier that
10 me for a second here. If you go to Page 13. And 10 would be successful; is that fair to say?
11 this is, again, the ICOMOS report prepared by -- is 11 A. Yes. We asked for specific advice from
12 it Dr. Gowen? 12 ICOMOS on several issues affecting this nomination
13 A. I believe so. 13 should we choose to go forward with it, and that's
14 Q. And this section discusses, I believe, the 14 what this report is.
15 post contact history of the site, and it's referring 15 Q. And then in the sixth paragraph on Page
16 to the Octagon site, correct, and the country club's 16 13, it reads as follows, quote: In a national and
17 involvement with that site, if you look on Page 12 at 17 local state culture of untrampled private property
18 the top? 18 ownership leasehold rights, an arrangement to vacate
19 A. Yes. That's correct. 19 the site can only be achieved by careful, sensitive
20 Q. So if you turn to Page 13, I want to 20 and protracted negotiation. And in addition, it will
21 direct your attention to paragraph -- looks like the 21 have to be arrived at cordially and willingly. It
22 fifth paragraph. And this is the -- and this is, 22 also -- it is also likely to involve a very
23 again, the report prepared by Dr. Gowen, correct? 23 substantial amount of money, and in parentheses,
24 A. Correct. 24 i.e., OHC will have to buy out the balance of the
25 Q. And this is a report that -- The ICOMOS 25 club's 80-year lease.
Page 388 Page 389
1 THE COURT: Where are you reading? 1 A. Yes.
2 MR. CRAWFORD: On Page 13, Your Honor. 2 Q. And that was announced, you said, a
3 Right in -- the fifth paragraph down. 3 year -- January 1, 2018, to take effect the following
4 MR. O'KORN: I think it's the sixth. 4 year?
5 MR. CRAWFORD: You're probably right. 5 A. I think it was announced in the latter
6 MR. O'KORN: It's the fifth. I'm sorry. 6 part of 2017 to take effect at the end of 2018.
7 MR. CRAWFORD: I just assumed you were 7 Q. Then -- And as a result of that -- I know
8 better at math than me. 8 you said that the World Heritage and UNESCO are two
9 MR. O'KORN: My fault. 9 different things, correct?
10 BY MR. CRAWFORD: 10 A. Yes. That's correct.
11 Q. And the last sentence reads: It is also 11 Q. But you also testified that there's a
12 possible that the agreement might involve a land swap 12 21-member committee on World Heritage --
13 or the identification of a suitable golf club that 13 A. That's correct.
14 will happily take on the playing members of the club. 14 Q. You have to wait until I finish my
15 Do you see that? 15 questions.
16 A. Yes. 16 A. I'm sorry.
17 Q. And that would be -- I guess this 17 Q. -- 21-member committee that determines the
18 is -- These are the words of Dr. Gowen as to what her 18 nominations, correct?
19 thoughts were on how to address the problem of the 19 A. Yes.
20 lease, correct? 20 Q. And this 21-member committee is comprised
21 A. Yes. 21 of representatives of 21 state parties; is that
22 Q. Now, there was also some discussion by you 22 correct?
23 of the United States' withdrawal of UNESCO -- 23 A. That's correct.
24 A. That's correct. 24 Q. And the state party is basically a country
25 Q. -- or from UNESCO? 25 that has signed on to the treaty, correct?
3/19/2019 19 (390 - 393)
Page 390 Page 391
1 A. Correct. 1 will be remembered or discussed when this nomination
2 Q. And the United States is not part of that 2 comes forward.
3 21-member committee? 3 Q. It's certainly not going to help, is it?
4 A. Not currently. 4 A. I have no of idea.
5 Q. And you are aware, are you not, that the 5 Q. You've been in Washington how many years?
6 U.N.'s ambassador said when the U.S. was withdrawing 6 Thirty years?
7 from UNESCO it did so because UNESCO is among the 7 A. Yes.
8 most corrupt and politically biased U.N. agencies and 8 Q. As far as the -- You also testified
9 referred to UNESCO as a cesspool? 9 regarding the tentative list for the United States,
10 MR. O'KORN: Objection. Relevancy and 10 which I think currently is -- is 20 sites?
11 assumes facts not in evidence. 11 A. Yes, that's right.
12 THE COURT: Are you aware of any comment 12 Q. And those include, for example, Big Bend
13 like that? Overruled, you can answer the question. 13 National Park?
14 A. Yes. 14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And is it fair to say that comments like 15 Q. Brooklyn Bridge, Central Park in New York,
16 that aren't going to have a favorable impact on 16 Ellis Island, Mariana Trench?
17 applications that the United States makes for World 17 A. That's correct.
18 Heritage status? 18 Q. Now, the other state parties, which are
19 MR. O'KORN: Objection. Hearsay and calls 19 other countries, also have their own tentative list,
20 for speculation. 20 correct?
21 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 A. That's correct.
22 A. Can you repeat the question? 22 Q. And I was on the website and it looked
23 MR. CRAWFORD: Could you read that back. 23 like the number of tentative list sites for other
24 (Question read back.) 24 state parties were about 1,731. Does that sound
25 A. I honestly don't know whether that comment 25 about right?
Page 392 Page 393
1 A. Are you -- You're saying -- I'm not sure I 1 if it's the third, correct?
2 understand your question. 2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. So other countries have tentative lists 3 Q. And with regard to the most recent
4 for prospective sites, correct? 4 applications submitted for nomination by the United
5 A. Uh-huh. 5 States, I believe you testified there were five?
6 Q. So those are other sites that the -- that 6 A. That's correct.
7 ultimately if they are not nominated by the state 7 Q. And three have been accepted?
8 party have to be considered by the committee? 8 A. That's right.
9 A. If they are nominated, yes. 9 Q. And so that means two have not been
10 Q. And you indicated that about 30 to 35 10 accepted?
11 nominations go before the -- the World Heritage 11 A. Correct. One of those was the Frank Lloyd
12 Committee -- 12 Wright nomination that has been resubmitted.
13 A. Yes. 13 Q. But we don't know whether that's going to
14 Q. -- annually? 14 be accepted?
15 A. On an annual basis, that's an approximate 15 A. That's correct.
16 number of nominations that are submitted. 16 Q. Now, there were some other issues
17 Q. And they never -- you've never known of a 17 identified in the application -- or the ICOMOS report
18 circumstance where they've granted all the nomination 18 with the Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks application,
19 applications, have you? 19 correct --
20 A. I don't think so, no. 20 A. Correct.
21 Q. So there's always going to be a loser in 21 Q. -- besides the golf course?
22 that process, correct? 22 A. Yes.
23 A. There's always a chance that a nomination 23 Q. And those were -- if I can find it -- if
24 is not going to succeed in the first go-round, yes. 24 you could look at Exhibit 40, if you would, please.
25 Q. And there's a chance it won't succeed even 25 A. Yes.
3/19/2019 20 (394 - 397)
Page 394 Page 395
1 Q. And Exhibit 40 is a document that looks 1 Q. And there's also -- If you look at the
2 like it's been prepared by World Heritage Ohio? 2 bottom, there's -- it says: In addition, two other
3 MR. O'KORN: Objection. There was 3 issues: Buffer zones. Do you see that?
4 no -- this witness did not testify about State's 4 A. Yes.
5 Exhibit 40 at all on direct. 5 Q. It says: The writer expressed the view
6 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, do you recognize this 6 that all sites would require a well-defined buffer
7 document? 7 zone in which the degree of management control would
8 THE COURT: Ask him if he recognizes it. 8 be demonstrated. Do you see that?
9 BY MR. CRAWFORD: 9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you recognize it? 10 Q. I've got to switch exhibits. I'm sorry.
11 A. Yes. 11 I want to ask you to turn to Exhibit 26
12 Q. You've seen this before? 12 again. I apologize. It's always the hardest one to
13 A. Yes. 13 get to, which I just found out. It's probably at the
14 Q. Do you understand what it is? 14 very beginning of the book down on your left there.
15 A. Yes. 15 It's the ICOMOS report.
16 Q. And can you tell the Court what it is. 16 A. Yes.
17 A. I think it's a summary of the report that 17 Q. With regard to -- If you look on Page 33
18 Dr. Gowen submitted. 18 where it says: 5.3: Buffer zones. Do you see that?
19 Q. The other issues -- and this document 19 A. Yes.
20 identifies the issues identified by Dr. Gowen, 20 Q. And it talks about Phyllis Ellen. I
21 correct? 21 believe you testified that she was the person that
22 A. Yes. 22 was here?
23 Q. And one of the issues is the power lines 23 A. Yes.
24 across the Hopewell mound group? 24 Q. And Dr. Gowen in her -- in this language
25 A. That's correct. 25 at the top of Page 33 indicates that she pointed out
Page 396 Page 397
1 that this is a significant change, all the U.S. World 1 A. Yes. That's correct.
2 Heritage sites -- pointing out that some U.S. World 2 Q. So 365-day-a-year public access is not a
3 Heritage sites do not have buffer zones. Do you see 3 requirement for a World Heritage site, correct?
4 that? 4 A. That's correct.
5 A. Yes. 5 Q. Now, if you would turn -- I think we
6 Q. And then it says: The issue must be 6 got -- Let's see. You're in the same book, so turn
7 addressed for these sites, however, especially in 7 to Exhibit 10, which I believe you testified about
8 Newark where urban development, much of it dating 8 earlier. This one ends at 25.
9 from the 19th century and early 20th century 9 A. Okay.
10 surrounds the three sites. Do you see that? 10 Q. I was reviewing that, and you indicate
11 A. Yes. 11 that's an announcement of the draft nomination to the
12 Q. So that would be another issue that would 12 Hopewell -- of Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks; is
13 have to be addressed with regard to the nomination, 13 that correct?
14 correct? 14 A. It's an announcement of the authorization
15 A. Correct. 15 to prepare a nomination.
16 Q. And you've been to the site, correct? 16 Q. Okay. I reviewed that. I didn't see
17 A. Yes. 17 anything in that announcement relative to the removal
18 Q. And you've seen that it's surrounded on 18 of the golf course; is that correct?
19 probably three sides by residential housing, right? 19 A. That's correct.
20 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm going to have to
21 Q. Now, some -- It's fair to say that some 21 have you go back to that one more time. If you could
22 World Heritage sites do not have year round -- Let me 22 go to Page 44 of the ICOMOS report.
23 strike that. It's fair to say that some World 23 A. Okay.
24 Heritage sites have limited public access; is that 24 Q. And look on the bottom of that page where
25 correct? 25 it says: Justification of outstanding universal
3/19/2019 21 (398 - 401)
Page 398 Page 399
1 value. 1 BY MR. CRAWFORD:
2 A. Yes. 2 Q. We spoke about the prospect of -- of if
3 Q. And the first sentence states: Together 3 Moundbuilders entered into a legally binding
4 these earthworks are the best preserved examples of 4 agreement to vacate the property if -- if World
5 the more than 40 monumental earthworks constructed by 5 Heritage inscription was granted. And you said -- I
6 the Ohio Hopewell culture during the woodland period 6 believe your testimony was that that's -- that could
7 which traced a cultural florescence distinct from 7 possibly assist in a nomination. What is it about
8 other mound building cultures in eastern North 8 that situation that would still inhibit the
9 America, correct? 9 nomination?
10 A. Yes. 10 MR. O'KORN: Objection. I don't think
11 Q. And so the mounds at a Moundbuilders 11 that was testified to.
12 Country Club are among the best preserved examples of 12 THE COURT: Finish the question.
13 those types of monumental earthworks, correct? 13 MR. CRAWFORD: I think I did.
14 A. Yes. 14 THE COURT: You said: What is it about
15 Q. And you're aware, of course, that 15 that -- objection.
16 Moundbuilders Country Club has been in possession of 16 BY MR. CRAWFORD:
17 that property for almost 110 years, correct? 17 Q. Okay. What is it about -- Well, let me go
18 A. Yes. 18 back then. We talked about if Moundbuilders Country
19 Q. And during those 110 years, the earthworks 19 Club agreed to vacate the grounds if World Heritage
20 there have remained the best preserved examples, 20 inscription -- or World Heritage inscription was
21 correct? 21 granted, that could be part of the application
22 A. Yes. 22 process with regard to a plan to get the golf course
23 MR. CRAWFORD: Just a couple more 23 off the property, correct?
24 questions, Your Honor. Sorry for that. 24 MR. O'KORN: Objection. Speculation.
25 25 THE COURT: Overruled.
Page 400 Page 401
1 A. I think I said that it could be part of 1 THE WITNESS: This is the modern or the
2 the plan. Whether it would be an appropriate one, I 2 more up-to-date way to refer to that. It's
3 don't know. 3 essentially before B.C. or B.C.E.
4 Q. Okay. What about that plan would not be 4 THE COURT: Okay. All right. Redirect?
5 appropriate? 5 MR. O'KORN: Can I have just one moment?
6 A. I think the notion of making it contingent 6 THE COURT: Sure.
7 on inscription might not be acceptable to the World 7 MR. O'KORN: No more questions, Judge.
8 Heritage Committee. 8 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. Do you have
9 Q. But that's just your summation of 9 any follow-up based on my question?
10 your -- your thought at this point? 10 MR. CRAWFORD: No, Your Honor.
11 A. Yes. 11 THE COURT: You may step down.
12 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. That's all my 12 (Discussion held off the record.)
13 questions, Your Honor. 13 MR. O'KORN: Can we agree that Mr. Morris
14 THE COURT: Quick question. At the bottom 14 is released on his subpoena?
15 of Page 44 on Exhibit 26, it references the woodland 15 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: We can.
16 period, parentheses, 1-1,000 C.E. What does C.E. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Next
17 stand for? 17 witness.
18 THE WITNESS: Common Era. 18 MS. LIMBERT: Your Honor, we call Dr. Bret
19 THE COURT: Which begins -- 19 Ruby.
20 MR. FRALEY: Did you say bottom of 44? 20 (Discussion held off the record.)
21 THE COURT: The bottom of Page 44. It's 21 THE COURT: Would you please raise your
22 kind of a tangential question. 22 hand.
23 THE WITNESS: That's -- We used to say 23 (Witness sworn.)
24 B.C. 24 THE COURT: State your full name and give
25 THE COURT: Yeah. 25 us your business address, please.
3/19/2019 22 (402 - 405)
Page 402 Page 403
1 THE WITNESS: My name is Bret James Ruby. 1 A. Yes. My dissertation was focused on
2 And my business address is 16062 State Route 104, 2 Hopewellian societies in the lower Ohio River Valley,
3 Chillicothe, Ohio. That's the Hopewell Culture 3 near Wabash, Ohio.
4 National Historical Park. 4 Q. Have you continued your interest and
5 THE COURT: You may inquire. 5 researching and studying the Hopewell culture since
6 MS. LIMBERT: Thank you. 6 completing your Ph.D.?
7 --- 7 A. Yes. My research focus has always been
8 BRET J. RUBY, 8 Hopewell archaeology throughout my professional
9 called as a witness on behalf of the Plaintiff, being 9 career, as well as my educational career.
10 first duly sworn, testified as follows: 10 Q. Okay. In front of you are two binders.
11 DIRECT EXAMINATION 11 If you could take Volume II and turn to Exhibit 32.
12 BY MS. LIMBERT: 12 There's tabs on the side. Do you recognize this
13 Q. Could you describe your educational 13 document?
14 background starting with college. 14 A. Yes.
15 A. Okay. I have a bachelor's degree in 15 Q. What is this document?
16 anthropology with a specialization in archaeology 16 A. This is a curriculum vitae.
17 from Kent State University. And I also hold a 17 Q. Is this your curriculum vitae?
18 master's and a doctorate in anthropology, again, 18 A. Yes.
19 specializing in archaeology, from Indiana University. 19 Q. Did you put this together?
20 Q. Did your studies have any particular 20 A. I did.
21 focus? 21 Q. Does this describe the publications that
22 A. Yes. I've been focused on Hopewell 22 you have published throughout your studies of
23 archaeology throughout the course of my career. 23 Hopewell culture?
24 Q. Did your dissertation have this topic as 24 A. Yes. There's a selected list.
25 its focus? 25 Q. Have some of these been peer reviewed?
Page 404 Page 405
1 A. Yes. 1 at Kent State.
2 Q. And what professional affiliations do you 2 Q. And did you continue learning new field
3 hold relating to archaeology? 3 techniques throughout your education?
4 A. Well, I'm a member of the Phi Beta Kappa 4 A. Yes. I both taught and participated in
5 Honor Society. I'm a registered professional 5 field schools at Indiana University, mostly in Ohio,
6 archaeologist, which is a nationwide register of 6 Indiana, Kentucky.
7 professional archaeologists in the United States. 7 Q. And do you continue to do field research
8 I'm a member of the society for American archology, 8 to this day?
9 which is the nation's largest group of professional 9 A. I do.
10 archaeologists. I'm a member of the Ohio 10 Q. Do you keep up with the latest
11 Archaeological Council, which is the state-specific 11 advancements in field research techniques?
12 professional archaeologist organization. And I'm 12 A. Try to, yes.
13 also a member of the Midwest Archaeological 13 Q. What is your current employment?
14 Conference, which is a regionally based professional 14 A. I am an archaeologist at Hopewell Culture
15 organization. 15 National Historical Park.
16 Q. Okay. Is this copy of Exhibit 32 a true 16 Q. Is that a park operated by the National
17 and accurate copy of your curriculum vitae? 17 Park Service?
18 A. Yes, it is. 18 A. Yes. We're a unit of the National Park
19 Q. Did you learn how to conduct 19 Service.
20 archaeological field research through your education? 20 Q. What does this job entail?
21 A. Yes. 21 A. So my job has really three principal
22 Q. And at what point in your education did 22 areas. First, I'm responsible for the protection of
23 you start learning that? 23 the resources that -- primarily the cultural
24 A. So I participated in an archaeological 24 archaeological resources, but also the natural
25 field school in Ross County while I was an undergrad 25 resources in the park. The second piece is, I'm
3/19/2019 23 (406 - 409)
Page 406 Page 407
1 involved in research in trying to better document and 1 would your National Park people approve of that?
2 understand the resources we have there in the park. 2 A. Yeah. They can call, and we'll give a
3 And, thirdly, my job involves trying to develop new 3 permit. We also offer organized tours at various
4 research and to interpret other people's research for 4 points through the year.
5 our education staff, the education rangers who work 5 Q. And for the other four sites, what are the
6 primarily with school children. So I sort of 6 hours of access for those sites?
7 translate information to them. 7 A. They're open from dawn to dusk.
8 Q. Okay. Where is the National Historic Park 8 Q. Is there a visitor center at any of these
9 located? 9 sites?
10 A. We are -- In Ross County, Ohio -- we have 10 A. Yes. At our Mound City group.
11 six separate mound earthworks complexes that are 11 Q. Do any of the other sites have visitor
12 scattered around Ross County, Ohio. 12 centers?
13 Q. Are you familiar with the public 13 A. No. But -- Well, at this point, four of
14 accessibility of these sites? 14 our sites are developed for public access. The only
15 A. Yes. 15 place you'll go and see a staffed visitor center is
16 Q. Are they publicly available? 16 Mound City group. But if you go to the Hopewell
17 A. Yes. 17 mound group or Hopeton Works or Seip Earthworks,
18 Q. Are there differences in the public 18 there you'll find static display, wayside exhibits
19 availability among the six sites? 19 along the trail, in parking lots, and brochures
20 A. Yes. For reasons of safety and 20 available at those sites.
21 accessibility, two of our units in particular, the 21 Q. And the visitor center at Mound City, is
22 High Bank Works and the Spruce Hill Works are 22 that staffed?
23 available only by special arrangement. 23 A. Yes, it is.
24 Q. If a member of the public wanted to make a 24 Q. And what's at the visitor center?
25 special arrangement to visit one of those sites, 25 A. So the visitor center has a small museum
Page 408 Page 409
1 with artifacts that were excavated at the Mound City 1 connections that Hopewell culture is known for.
2 group in 1920, 1921. There's a -- And there's 2 Q. And is that film popular for visitors to
3 interpretive displays in the museum that try to 3 watch?
4 explain the meaning of those artifacts. There's an 4 A. Yeah. Absolutely. We get a lot of great
5 auditorium where we show a 17-minute orientation film 5 feedback. People that go into that movie and -- you
6 that gives a broader overview of our park resources 6 know, generally knowing little or nothing about
7 as well as Hopewell culture sites throughout Ohio and 7 Hopewell culture or the mound building cultures in
8 eastern North America. And, thirdly, there's a 8 eastern North America, and they come out saying,
9 bookshop or a gift shop there. 9 "Wow. I had no idea that we had these kind of
10 Q. And you mentioned the educational material 10 resources right here in our own backyard."
11 on display. Are those focused on the specific 11 Q. And you mentioned a bookshop. What kinds
12 earthworks in your National Historic Park? 12 of things are for sale at the bookshop?
13 A. Yes. By and large, our displays are 13 A. So everything in our bookshop has an
14 focused on the resources there at Hopewell Culture. 14 educational component that's connected to the
15 We do make some reference to other Hopewell complexes 15 resources in the park. So it's primarily books, but
16 including the Newark Earthworks. 16 also -- you know, for example, we have samples of
17 Q. Okay. And you mentioned an auditorium and 17 Hopewell exotic raw materials like obsidian and
18 a film. What's the film that you run? 18 copper and mica that -- children really connect with
19 A. The exact title is escaping me. I think 19 those kind of things. But everything in there has an
20 it's called "Ancient Architects." But it's less than 20 educational message behind it.
21 ten years old. It's relatively recent. It 21 Q. And is that educational requirement a
22 encompasses a lot of recent research on Hopewell 22 National Park Service requirement?
23 archaeology, and it gives -- you know, it focuses 23 A. Yes.
24 mostly, of course, on our resources in particular, 24 Q. And you mentioned some educational
25 but it also relates to the regional and interregional 25 programming. Does the park put on educational
3/19/2019 24 (410 - 413)
Page 410 Page 411
1 programming? 1 is an example of exactly what we're going to do, and
2 A. Yeah. That's really at the heart of our 2 no other witness has talked about what this park does
3 mission. 3 or the kinds of educational opportunities. And we
4 Q. Okay. Are you involved in that 4 will go into some of the differences between this and
5 programming? 5 Fort Ancient.
6 A. I'm not involved in the day-to-day 6 THE COURT: The objection is overruled.
7 delivery of the programming, mostly which is focused 7 Go ahead.
8 on school children. But I'm familiar with what goes 8 BY MS. LIMBERT:
9 on in the outlines of it. 9 Q. Are -- These tours you mentioned, are they
10 Q. Does your staff lead tours of the sites? 10 on a daily basis?
11 A. Yeah. We lead daily tours throughout the 11 A. In the summer months, yes.
12 summer. 12 Q. Okay. Who attends these tours?
13 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Your Honor, I'll 13 A. So the summer programming is primarily
14 object to that question, just only because it's 14 oriented towards, you know, families and visitors
15 cumulative. This will be the third witness, I 15 that show up to the park.
16 believe, that testifies to the tours. And just so 16 Q. Okay. And do school groups attend tours
17 the Court knows, we plan on putting on no evidence 17 as well?
18 that would suggest anything otherwise or say anything 18 A. Yes. Most of our school group programming
19 other than great things about the Hopewell Culture. 19 comes in the spring and the fall, particularly -- May
20 MS. LIMBERT: Your Honor, our response is 20 is a huge school tour group. We get something like
21 that the opposing side has questioned whether the 21 3,500 -- Well, we -- we have educational
22 Ohio History Connection is going to do any of the 22 curriculum-based programs oriented towards school
23 things that it says it will do and whether it's 23 kids, and we deliver that to about 3,500 school kids
24 necessary for the golf course to be removed if so. 24 a year; and about 2,500 of those are, like, organized
25 And the foundation that we're laying here is: This 25 field trips, bus trips to the park.
Page 412 Page 413
1 Q. What are the most popular times of the 1 A. Our numbers certainly peak -- they begin
2 year for school children to visit? 2 growing right about now, and they peak in the summer,
3 A. You know, mostly it's in the spring and 3 another sort of a blip in the fall. So it's very
4 the fall. But then we also get little pulses, like 4 seasonally based, weather based.
5 over the Christmas vacation period when they're there 5 Q. And how many people come to the park a
6 with their families and such. 6 year generally, if you know?
7 Q. Are you involved in giving any 7 A. We've seen from about -- If you look back
8 presentations outside of the daily, day-to-day at the 8 from, say, 2000 to 2015, our numbers were pretty
9 park? 9 steady at about 30,000 to 40,000 visitors per year.
10 A. Yes. In particular, in the summer, we 10 But over the last two years, we've seen a marked
11 have a -- In June and July, we have an organized 11 increase to about close to 60,000 visitors a year
12 lecture series where we bring in researchers, 12 over the last two years.
13 archaeologists from -- mostly from Ohio, but 13 Q. Do you have an understanding of what that
14 occasionally farther abroad; and sometimes I'll 14 increase might have resulted from?
15 present in that lecture series. 15 A. So we haven't done -- the National Park
16 Q. Are those well attended? 16 Service hasn't done any formal surveys of visitors to
17 A. Absolutely. We've outgrown our auditorium 17 understand why they're coming, what brought them
18 space, so we have over the last couple of years had 18 there. But we do informally ask them in the visitor
19 to turn people away from that unfortunately. 19 center, you know, "What brought you here today?" And
20 Q. Are you generally familiar with the 20 what we're hearing is that -- well, two things: In
21 official visitation numbers for the park over the 21 2016 that was the centennial of the National Park
22 years? 22 Service, so there was a lot of promotional activity
23 A. Yes. 23 focused on that; so that brought other visitors.
24 Q. Are there peak popular times during the 24 But, secondly, the World Heritage nomination, people
25 year for visitation? 25 again and again tell us, "Well, you know, I saw
3/19/2019 25 (414 - 417)
Page 414 Page 415
1 something in the newspaper, heard something on the 1 1950s. But we've seen in very recent years
2 radio," and that has brought a big increase. 2 incredible advances in instrumentation and software
3 Q. Okay. Have you conducted archaeological 3 for utilizing that information. And so
4 research at the National Historic Park? 4 research -- field research today, you know, best
5 A. Yes. 5 practice involves first -- you know, running one or
6 Q. At what point in your career did you begin 6 more of these remote sensing technologies that then
7 doing this type of research at the park? 7 are used to target what you might consider more
8 A. So my career -- my professional career 8 traditional archaeological excavation techniques.
9 actually began at the park in the mid 1990s. And so 9 Those in current practice today are really directed
10 I began doing field research in the park at that 10 by these earlier phased remote sensing studies.
11 time. 11 Q. Has your research at the Hopewell Culture
12 Q. Have you conducted research at each of 12 National Historical Park unveiled information about
13 your six sites? 13 the Hopewell culture that we didn't already know?
14 A. Yes, I have. 14 A. Absolutely. And in the last couple years,
15 Q. Is research on Hopewell earthworks 15 I've been involved a long-term project with the
16 something that could be conducted quickly? 16 German Archaeological Institute in Berlin. And they
17 A. No. It -- it tends to be a very 17 have really pioneered a particular remote sensing
18 time-consuming process. 18 technology, magnetometry, where -- they -- what
19 Q. Are there steps that need to be done in 19 they've been doing -- it's not like they invented a
20 sequence when you initiate a field research activity? 20 new technique. But they scaled up the
21 A. Yes. You know, increasingly 21 instrumentation and the software so that we can now,
22 archaeological research today -- there's a whole set 22 for the first time, approach these earthworks on a
23 of new technologies that are becoming available to 23 landscape scale. And that's one of the most
24 drive archaeological research, remote sensing 24 remarkable things about Hopewell archaeology, is that
25 technologies that have been around really since the 25 it is at this phenomenal landscape scale. And so for
Page 416 Page 417
1 the first time, we have techniques of investigating 1 there that there's -- those are sixteen magnetometers
2 that archaeological record at the same scale as the 2 mounted on an array that's towed behind that vehicle.
3 record. And so, yeah, we have revolutionized what we 3 Q. Does the National Historic Park own one of
4 understood about our resources in the park in just 4 these pieces of equipment?
5 the last five years. 5 A. We own -- Not that particular model. We
6 Q. Okay. And you still have Volume II in 6 have a much older version that's a single, handheld
7 front of you. I'll have you turn to Exhibit 34. Do 7 magnetometer probe.
8 you recognize this document? 8 Q. So that would be one instead of sixteen?
9 A. I do. 9 A. Right.
10 Q. What is this document? 10 Q. And would that be a much slower process?
11 A. So this is a short summary of some of the 11 A. Yeah, obviously. We could do something
12 most recent research that we've done in the park. 12 like, I don't know, maybe an acre or two a day with a
13 Q. Did you write this document? 13 single probe instrument. But this one, something
14 A. Yes, I did. 14 like 30 acres in a day.
15 Q. And is this your research? 15 Q. Okay. If you could turn to the second
16 A. Yes, it is. 16 page. What is the image on the second page?
17 Q. Looking at the first page there, the 17 A. So the image you're seeing there is -- the
18 diagram at the top, what is that image? 18 gray scale image is what we call a magnetogram.
19 A. So that's a map showing the six mound and 19 That's the output from a magnetic survey. And here
20 earthwork complexes that make up our park. 20 it's superimposed over an aerial photograph. And,
21 Q. Then the image right below it looks like 21 you know, to get some sense of the scale there, on
22 some equipment. What is that image showing? 22 the right side of the gray scale image, that little
23 A. Yeah. That is the instrument that the 23 loop is our parking lot there. And in sort of the
24 German Archaeological Institute has -- they actually 24 central southern part of the image you can see a
25 brought it here for three seasons. And you can see 25 little blue dot. That's a swimming pool. So this is
3/19/2019 26 (418 - 421)
Page 418 Page 419
1 something like 160 or 180 acres of magnetic data. 1 there's outlines of some things. Are those outlines
2 This is probably -- that alone is probably the 2 of features that are underground?
3 largest archaeomagnetic data set in America. 3 A. Right. So those red arrows are
4 Q. And if you were to go out to this location 4 highlighting -- Well, the inset on the top left is
5 and look across this 100 or so acres, what would you 5 a -- is a version of a map that was drawn back in the
6 see? 6 19th century when the earthworks were six feet tall
7 A. Well, sadly, this is the Hopewell mound 7 and quite visible on the ground. So those red arrows
8 group. This is the type site for the Hopewell 8 are pointing to the remanence of those features
9 culture. This is the place that is regarded as one 9 that -- where there -- there's very little
10 of the most spectacular expressions of Hopewell 10 topographic expression left; but buried beneath the
11 culture. And that's why archaeologists centuries ago 11 surface, those resources are still well intact.
12 named the culture after this place. But sadly, if 12 There's great integrity there. And that's what we're
13 you went there today, you would see pretty much a 13 detecting with the magnetometry.
14 featureless grassy plain because it has suffered from 14 Q. And if you could turn to Page 4. Were
15 200 years of agricultural plowing. 15 there features uncovered by this magnetic survey that
16 Q. When you say "featureless," do you mean 16 your team didn't know about before?
17 that you can't really see the earthworks? 17 A. Yes. And one of these features --
18 A. Yeah. The earthworks themselves have been 18 this -- on Page 4, you're seeing a feature that we
19 largely plowed down. Now, with some -- If you spend 19 call the Great Circle. And this has been the focus
20 enough time out there or if you were to visit there 20 of a research project over the last -- Well, now it's
21 with me, I can point out features on the ground. But 21 been at least four years. And we knew from the 19th
22 most visitors, if they come there without a guide, 22 century maps that this was a low earthen embankment,
23 they're really sort of left without much 23 maybe three foot tall. But what we've discovered
24 understanding of what they're seeing. 24 through the magnetometry, where today it's entirely
25 Q. Okay. So in this image, I do see that 25 plowed away -- it was entirely plowed away by 1891.
Page 420 Page 421
1 But we discovered with this magnetic survey that just 1 supported posts something like 18 feet tall. And
2 beneath the surface it's really well preserved, and 2 then on the right is -- at the very center of the
3 it's much more complex than what we ever imagined. 3 circle, you can see from the magnetic data, there's
4 It has -- So what we know it to be today 4 four very large ten-foot diameter magnetic anomalies.
5 is a deep encircling ditch that's -- it's about 400 5 We excavated a portion of one of those, and it turned
6 feet across, so you can put an American football 6 out to be a gigantic earth oven where probably
7 field inside that circle that you see there. 7 hundreds of people could be provisioned out of that
8 And so it's a deep encircling ditch. 8 oven there.
9 There's four causeways that cross that ditch or 9 Q. Was that something new for researchers to
10 gateways that are -- that quarter the circle there. 10 learn?
11 And just inside the ditch, we discovered that there's 11 A. Yeah. We have not -- This is, to my
12 a row of monumental wood timbers that encircles the 12 knowledge, the first time we've documented this kind
13 whole feature. So it was what we call a Hopewell 13 of thing. It's -- it's interesting and revolutionary
14 Woodhenge. Think Stonehenge, only wood. 14 because for 200 years most of Hopewell
15 Q. Did you and your team excavate the site? 15 archaeologically was focused on the upstanding mounds
16 A. We did some very targeted -- small 16 and was focused on human burials and mortuary
17 targeted excavations there over two seasons. 17 behavior. But what we discovered here is an entirely
18 Q. And those photos at the bottom of Page 4, 18 different kind of ritual architecture that has
19 what are those? 19 nothing apparently related to mortuary behavior here.
20 A. Those are some of the results of our 20 This is probably more connected to other kinds of
21 excavations. On the lower left, you see the profile 21 ritual -- world renewal ritual and other concerns in
22 of that deep encircling ditch. In the center, you 22 Hopewell life. So it's really given us a broader
23 see one of these monumental posts which are three -- 23 view of Hopewell life.
24 the post holes were about three feet in diameter and 24 Q. And was this finding about these various
25 four and a half feet deep. These would have 25 features you talked about assisted by this magnetic
3/19/2019 27 (422 - 425)
Page 422 Page 423
1 survey with the technology coming out just in the 1 problem with -- with magnetics. You know, what we're
2 last few years? 2 measuring is slight variations in the earth's
3 A. Yeah, absolutely. We wouldn't have known 3 magnetic field that are caused by disturbances to
4 that it was there. But it never would have attracted 4 iron particles in the soil. So it's -- You know,
5 our attention without that magnetic data. 5 we're measuring -- that's what we're measuring.
6 Q. And then one last question about this 6 There's other remote sensing techniques that are
7 document. On Page 4, towards the bottom of the 7 measuring other properties. For example, ground
8 magnetic data, there's a spot that says: Electric 8 penetrating radar is another remote sensing
9 transmission tower. What is being pointed to there? 9 technique. It's largely measuring differences in
10 A. So unfortunately, at the Hopewell mound 10 density, so it's good at --
11 group, there's also a high tension electrical 11 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Objection.
12 transmission line. One of the big major transmission 12 Nonresponsive.
13 lines crosses the site, and there's several of these 13 MS. LIMBERT: That's okay. We can move on
14 big steel lattice electrical transmission towers. 14 from that.
15 And one of them happens to impact the southern edge 15 BY MS. LIMBERT:
16 of the -- that Great Circle there. So it's steel and 16 Q. Let's turn to Exhibit 35. Do you
17 highly magnetic, so that's what we're seeing in that 17 recognize this document?
18 magnetic data. 18 A. Yes, I do.
19 Q. And does that data -- where it's obscured 19 Q. What is this document?
20 by the steel reading, the ferrous material, does that 20 A. This was a -- sort of a popular article on
21 data have value to you as a researcher? 21 the work we did there at Great Circle that was
22 A. Well, that -- You know, that particular 22 published in American Archaeology Magazine.
23 spot where it's, you know, it's actually obscuring 23 Q. This photo on the first page, do you
24 the features of interest to us. It's obscuring the 24 recognize that?
25 prehistoric archaeology. So that's a particular 25 A. I do.
Page 424 Page 425
1 Q. What is this photo? 1 our pathways internship program. And these are
2 A. So this is showing a very, again, targeted 2 graduate students, so that also impacts on our
3 excavation unit. In the foreground, you can see a 3 schedule. You know, it tends to be the summer months
4 series of white flags. Those white flags are marking 4 when they're out of school.
5 the location of these individual magnetic anomalies. 5 Q. And are these excavations and these
6 And then two of them, where you see those two square 6 research opportunities that you've done, are they
7 or rectangular slots, those are where we 7 also educational opportunities?
8 cross-section those anomalies because one of the 8 A. Yes. You know, we think of our parks --
9 limitations of magnetic data is you can't tell just 9 the park service uses parks as classrooms. And so,
10 by looking at the data what it represents 10 you know, part of our mission in bringing in these
11 archeologically. There's a need for ground truth 11 pathways interns is to use it as a training ground
12 excavations, but the beauty of what we're doing today 12 for future archaeologists.
13 is we can really target those areas much more 13 Q. And then looking at Exhibit 33, do you
14 efficiently than in the past. 14 recognize this document?
15 So in the foreground there, you see where 15 A. I do.
16 we cross-sectioned two of those what turned out to be 16 Q. What is this document?
17 wooden post pits. And then that long trench off to 17 A. So this was a poster presentation. This
18 the upper left is transecting that encircling ditch. 18 is a version of a much larger poster that was
19 Q. Can -- A project like this, when does it 19 presented at the Society for American Archaeology
20 have to be done, what time of year? 20 meetings, a professional poster presentation.
21 A. Well, it's -- it's limited to the summer 21 Q. Okay. And what is -- what is depicted
22 season really, just for weather reasons. And also 22 generally in all of these photos? What are they
23 we're, in some cases, tied to the academic calendar. 23 being used to say to the viewer?
24 The people who are actually doing the hard work there 24 A. So generally we're giving some sense of
25 are students that participate in the -- what we call 25 the results of this survey with the German
3/19/2019 28 (426 - 429)
Page 426 Page 427
1 Archaeological Institute which actually touched on 1 things that we don't already know about the Hopewell
2 all six of our park units, completely surveyed all of 2 culture?
3 our park units. And this presentation also, you 3 A. Yes. And I suspect that, you know, what
4 know, highlights some of the ground truth 4 we've learned in just the last few years at Hopewell
5 excavations. And in the case of the Seip Earthworks 5 Culture, you know, I would expect to find the same
6 at the upper right that we haven't talked about, that 6 kinds of things all over the Hopewell world.
7 image is highlighting -- the Seip Earthworks is this 7 Q. And do you mean "same things" as in the
8 gigantic tri part earthwork with two circles and a 8 exact same features, or what do you mean?
9 square that encompasses something like 130 acres. 9 A. No. I guess what I mean is: In general,
10 But we were, you know, really surprised to discover 10 our understanding of Hopewell archaeology has always
11 more than a dozen new enclosures that had never been 11 been focused on these earthen monuments. And what
12 mapped in the 19th century or any other time, things 12 we're now discovering is that there's this whole
13 that we didn't dream were out there. More than a 13 range of other wooden architecture that accompanied
14 dozen new ditch enclosures or timber posts surfaced. 14 the earthworks that -- you know, this is the first
15 Q. And so those new discoveries or at least 15 time we've really had the ability to detect those
16 rediscoveries, are they things that have all been 16 kind of things. And, yeah, I have great confidence
17 discovered in the last five years? 17 based on what we saw here in our park from unit to
18 A. Yeah. That image on the upper right, all 18 unit, that if we went out to other Hopewell
19 those enclosures are -- were discovered in the last 19 earthworks, we would find that same kind of diversity
20 five years. 20 and that much richer and more complex archaeological
21 Q. Could this research be duplicated at 21 record.
22 Hopewell sites that have not already been researched 22 Q. And each of these six sites that you've
23 this way? 23 studied, does each of them have some kind of unique
24 A. Yes, absolutely. 24 value?
25 Q. Could research -- further research tell us 25 A. Yes. That's another thing that we've
Page 428 Page 429
1 learned in our research in the park, is the 1 ---
2 highlighting sort of a new understanding that each of 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION
3 the earthworks seems to be functionally distinct and 3 BY MR. JOSEPH FRALEY:
4 have their own purposes. You know, for example, the 4 Q. Good morning, Mr. Ruby.
5 Mound City group is a, you know, relatively small 5 A. Hi.
6 compact earthwork that's only about 16 acres with 26 6 Q. You and I met earlier on our trek
7 earthen mounds, all of which had -- are covered where 7 upstairs. So nice to see you again. I really just
8 human remains were deposited. So lots and lots of 8 have a few questions.
9 mortuary activity. Funerals took place at Mound City 9 Previous testimony indicated that some of
10 group. Just three miles away on the opposite side of 10 the other sites are closed to the public, and they
11 the Scioto River at a place we call our Hopeton 11 request special access; is that accurate?
12 Earthworks unit, it's a much larger earthwork. It's 12 A. They're not closed to the public.
13 geometric, a circle and a square with no burial 13 Q. Okay. Then explain to me what -- what is
14 mounds or -- and little or no evidence of mortuary 14 the special access that you were mentioning?
15 activity at all. 15 A. There's restrictions on the timing of
16 So these places are all sort of unique in 16 people's visitation there.
17 the way they were used in Hopewell life. I would 17 Q. Okay. So they can't be there 24/7?
18 image that a Hopewell person would have participated 18 There's access granted at certain times. And then
19 in certain kinds of rituals at the Mound City group; 19 what about the permission part that you mentioned?
20 and at other points in the calendar, they would be at 20 Do they have to request permission?
21 these other units doing different kinds of things. 21 A. We want to know that people are there.
22 MS. LIMBERT: I have no further questions. 22 Q. Okay.
23 Thank you. 23 A. And they're not direct -- We don't direct
24 THE COURT: Cross. 24 people there just because, you know, it's
25 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Thank you. 25 primarily -- in the case of our High Bank unit, it's
3/19/2019 29 (430 - 433)
Page 430 Page 431
1 a safety issue because there's an uncontrolled 1 Q. Okay.
2 railroad crossing. You know, it's very steep. It's 2 A. -- are a problem.
3 a blind crossing. There's no gates. So we don't 3 Q. So Moundbuilders Country Club being
4 direct the public there for that safety reason. 4 roughly 125 acres, if you, say, doubled the time to
5 Q. Okay. If the public wanted to go there, 5 take care of some of those impediments, you would
6 they would make an arrangement with your -- 6 agree with me that would take roughly about eight
7 A. Yes. We would prefer they go there with a 7 days?
8 ranger. 8 A. I think it would take a lot longer.
9 Q. Okay. So you would agree with me that a 9 There's -- You know, my experience being sort of out
10 group or an individual at some of your sites can't 10 around the Octagon, there's an awful lot of trees,
11 just get access, that they go through a procedure to 11 sand traps and a lot of obstructions that would --
12 get access contacting your group? Would that be 12 Q. Slow you down?
13 accurate? 13 A. -- that would really slow you down. We
14 A. Yes. 14 also have -- an issue that we're trying to solve
15 Q. In regard to testing, I believe you 15 right now is that the -- this array requires a global
16 testified, is it not true, that -- And help me out if 16 positioning system, very accurate global positioning
17 I'm -- One of the tests, you could do about 30 acres 17 system; and trees and buildings and things that --
18 a day? 18 reflective things interfere with that. And so we've
19 A. Yeah. Under the best conditions, 19 had trouble working in environments. It takes much
20 that -- that big magnetometer array, that four-meter 20 longer. It's not that it doesn't work. It's just
21 array, that's a -- we can do about 30 acres a day; 21 that you have to wait until the satellites move to a
22 but that's assuming that there's no obstructions in 22 different spot in order for it to work where you are.
23 the way. 23 So it takes much, much longer when there's any kind
24 Q. Sure. 24 of trees around.
25 A. Trees in particular -- 25 Q. And so you would agree with me the more
Page 432 Page 433
1 trees that are on the property, the more time it 1 outs of that. I know that Eastern National Parks and
2 takes? 2 Monuments -- they've been around for a long, long
3 A. Yeah. For that instrument. 3 time, you know, decades and decades. And they're in
4 Q. Okay. 4 national parks all over the eastern U.S. There's
5 A. But, again, there's a whole wide array of 5 similar organization in the western parks, but I
6 instruments that -- they each have their own 6 don't know the ins and outs of that arrangement. For
7 strengths, weaknesses. 7 me, they've always been there at Hopewell Culture.
8 Q. Sure. Well, you testified to that one 8 Q. Okay. Now, I noticed that -- I believe
9 specifically, so I wanted to sort of follow up. 9 you testified or there was very little testimony as
10 A. Yes. 10 to this World Heritage designation, correct? You
11 Q. You also mentioned that one of your parks 11 didn't testify to anything as to World Heritage?
12 has a gift shop? 12 A. Not --
13 A. Yes. 13 Q. Are you familiar with --
14 Q. Okay. And I presume you sell things out 14 A. I mentioned that I'm aware of it and it's
15 of that gift shop, true? 15 had some impact on our visitation.
16 A. Yeah. There's a -- We have a cooperating 16 Q. Positively?
17 association, the Eastern National Parks and Monuments 17 A. Yes.
18 Association that is a separate organization. They 18 Q. And could you give us an idea of what
19 support our mission. They operate -- they operate 19 location that was that it had a positive impact on?
20 the bookstore. 20 A. Well, the only place we really count
21 Q. Okay. So it's in some way -- You would 21 visitors, where we get -- is at the Mound City group
22 agree it's leased out or some arrangement is made for 22 where we can get eyes on them and a ranger clicks
23 another group to come and sell things out of that 23 a --
24 gift shop? Is that the arrangement, if you know? 24 Q. Okay. And it had a positive impact in
25 A. I guess I don't really know the ins and 25 regard to the attendance at that point?
3/19/2019 30 (434 - 437)
Page 434 Page 435
1 A. The numbers went up. 1 THE WITNESS: Well, not necessarily. The
2 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Okay. Thank you. No 2 process as I've witnessed it is this: Congress makes
3 more questions. 3 a legislative boundary based on recommendations from
4 THE COURT: Redirect. 4 the National Park Service. But they draw out a map.
5 --- 5 They establish that as a unit of the national park
6 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 6 system, but it may be entirely privately owned at
7 BY MS. LIMBERT: 7 that time.
8 Q. Very briefly. You mentioned that National 8 And in our case, we have legislative
9 Park Service gathers around 60,000 visitors annually? 9 authority to purchase property. And in -- So most of
10 A. The last two years. 10 our park is in fee simple ownership by the federal
11 Q. Could the National Park Service 11 government. But there are individual parcels that we
12 accommodate all of those visitors if they each had to 12 don't own at this time.
13 request permission to visit? 13 THE COURT: But they're still considered
14 A. No. Absolutely not. 14 part of the national park?
15 MS. LIMBERT: Nothing further. 15 THE WITNESS: Right. They're still a part
16 THE COURT: Okay. Let me ask you a 16 of the national park. We have some jurisdictional
17 question. The Hopewell Culture National 17 authority within it by virtue of it being part of the
18 History -- or National Historical Park, is that owned 18 national park.
19 by the federal government, the National Park Service? 19 THE COURT: Okay. So when did the
20 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 20 Hopewell Culture National Historical Park become a
21 THE COURT: Did that -- 21 national park?
22 THE WITNESS: Did you say owned by? 22 THE WITNESS: So we --
23 THE COURT: Yeah. Who owns it? If a 23 THE COURT: If you know.
24 piece of property is designated a national park, I'm 24 THE WITNESS: Well, it was first
25 assuming that it's owned by the United States. 25 established as a national monument in 1923, just the
Page 436 Page 437
1 Mound City group, something like 80 acres at that 1 O'Korn, Assistant Attorney General on behalf of the
2 time. And in 1980, Congress authorized us to acquire 2 plaintiff. And we would call Burt Logan to the
3 additional property at the Hopeton Earthworks nearby. 3 stand.
4 And then in 1992, we were authorized to acquire 4 (Witness sworn.)
5 property at four other units and changed our name 5 THE BAILIFF: State your name and spell
6 from Hopewell Culture to reflect that broader 6 your last name and give your address.
7 emphasis. And then again in 2009, Congress 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. My full legal name is
8 authorized us to expand the boundary to include the 8 Lox Albert Logan, Jr. I'm known by the nickname
9 Spruce Hill Works. 9 Burt. I live at 2409 Sherwood Road in Bexley, Ohio.
10 THE COURT: Follow-up based on my 10 THE COURT: You main inquire.
11 questions? 11 ---
12 MS. LIMBERT: Nothing further, Your Honor. 12 LOX ALBERT "BURT" LOGAN, JR.,
13 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. 13 called as a witness on behalf of the Plaintiff, being
14 Is he discharged? 14 first duly sworn, testified as follows:
15 MS. LIMBERT: Yes. 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION
16 THE COURT: Thank you. 16 BY MR. O'KORN:
17 MR. O'KORN: Judge, at this time, the next 17 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Logan. Who do you
18 witness we'll call will be Burt Logan. We were 18 work for?
19 hoping to have a short lunch break. 19 A. I work for the Ohio History Connection.
20 THE COURT: Yeah. Why don't we shoot for 20 Q. And what is your job title?
21 an hour. 21 A. I'm the executive director and chief
22 (Recess taken.) 22 executive officer.
23 THE COURT: Back on the record. I assume 23 Q. And how long have you held that position?
24 we're ready to proceed with the next witness. 24 A. Since December 15, 2009.
25 MR. O'KORN: We are, yes. This is Keith 25 MR. O'KORN: Your Honor, at this point, I
3/19/2019 31 (438 - 441)
Page 438 Page 439
1 intend to inquire about this second appraisal, this 1 And, thereupon, State's Exhibit No. 44 was
2 Weiler appraisal that was mentioned in the opening 2 marked for purposes of identification.
3 statement by Mr. Fraley. As you may remember, I 3 ---
4 objected to that line of inquiry. And for economy 4 BY MR. O'KORN:
5 purposes, what I'd like to do is just reassert that 5 Q. I'm handing the witness what's been marked
6 objection now. 6 as State's Exhibit 44.
7 THE COURT: Sure. 7 Mr. Logan, how many appraisals were done?
8 MR. O'KORN: And I'm -- I won't speak for 8 A. We conducted two appraisals.
9 you. I'm assuming you have the same -- 9 Q. I've handed you what's been marked as
10 THE COURT: Same ruling. 10 State's Exhibit 44. Can you identify this?
11 MR. O'KORN: -- same ruling at that point, 11 A. Yes, I can. This is the appraisal
12 just so we don't have a waiver. 12 prepared by The Robert Weiler group.
13 THE COURT: Yes. Absolutely. Objection 13 Q. Is this one of the two appraisals you're
14 is noted. 14 referring to when you said two appraisals were done?
15 BY MR. O'KORN: 15 A. Yes, it is.
16 Q. Mr. Logan, did the Ohio History Connection 16 Q. And then I'm going to have you -- We're
17 appraise the club's property interest before the 17 just going to go back and forth here just a few
18 notice of intent was delivered on the club on 18 times. I'm going to have you refer to State's
19 August 28, 2018? 19 Exhibit 12. So that's going to be in binder number
20 A. Yes, we did. 20 I, Volume No. I.
21 Q. How many appraisals were done? 21 Mr. Logan, I can assist in terms of
22 A. There were two appraisals. 22 identifying the next exhibit. So I had you go to
23 MR. O'KORN: May I approach, Judge? 23 State's Exhibit 12. If you could go six pages in.
24 THE COURT: You may. 24 So go through the first five pages for that exhibit.
25 --- 25 A. Yes.
Page 440 Page 441
1 Q. And you should see a cover page that says 1 appraise the leasehold value of Moundbuilders Country
2 at the bottom: Sam D. Koon & Associates. Do you see 2 Club.
3 that? 3 Q. Now, in general or in terms of a time
4 A. Yes, I do. 4 period, roughly when would these appraisers have been
5 Q. And then I'd like you to -- I'd like you 5 initially engaged or retained to do this work?
6 to flip through the remainder of that document, if 6 A. It was in the spring of 2017 that we
7 you would. And I don't expect you to look through 7 engaged those entities.
8 every page, but just generally flip through it. 8 Q. Now, as far as you know, did the History
9 A. All right. 9 Connection engage or retain Mr. Koon after the
10 Q. Can you identify that document. 10 History Connection received the Weiler report?
11 A. Yes. This is the appraisal that was 11 A. We did not.
12 completed by Sam D. Koon for us. 12 Q. Now, I want you to go back to -- You have
13 Q. Is that, then, the second of the two 13 it already in front of you. This is State's Exhibit
14 appraisals that you -- that you said the History 14 12. Go to the first five pages, if you would. So
15 Connection had completed prior to the notice being 15 not the first five pages of the appraisal. The first
16 issued? 16 five pages that come before. Take a look at those
17 A. Yes. We had an appraisal done by Weiler 17 first five pages of State's Exhibit 12.
18 and by Koon. 18 A. All right.
19 Q. And are these -- These two that I've shown 19 Q. Can you identify that?
20 you, are these true and accurate copies, as far as 20 A. Yes. This is the notice of intent to
21 you know, of those appraisals? 21 inquire along with a good faith offer that we
22 A. Yes, as far as I know. 22 delivered to Moundbuilders Country Club on August 28,
23 Q. Now, let's take a step back. What was 23 2018.
24 your understanding of what these appraisals valued? 24 Q. Why was the Koon appraisal attached to
25 A. We had requested of both appraisers to 25 this notice instead of the Weiler appraisal?
3/19/2019 32 (442 - 445)
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1 A. When I looked at the two appraisals, I 1 A. All right.
2 thought I was looking at two leasehold values. The 2 Q. When you mentioned this 800,000 number, is
3 Weiler was at 500,000, the Koon was 800,000. And we 3 that what you were referring to that's in the middle
4 did what we thought was honorable and gave the higher 4 of Page G29?
5 valuation of 800,000 in our good faith offer. 5 A. Yes, it is. It's the 795,000. We rounded
6 Q. So I'm going to have you turn to -- You 6 it to 800,000.
7 mentioned 800,000. Let's look at the Weiler 7 Q. Mr. Logan, did you come to an
8 appraisal first, because you mentioned two figures, 8 understanding that the $500,000 figure that's in the
9 800 and 500. I want to identify where in that 9 Weiler report valued something different than the
10 document you saw those figures. So let's start with 10 club's leasehold interest?
11 the Weiler appraisal first. And I'm turning you to 11 A. Yes, I did.
12 page -- what's been marked as -- it would be -- this 12 Q. Before we get to that, I'm going to
13 isn't marked so well because it's several parts. But 13 approach with another exhibit.
14 it's right at the beginning. It would basically be 14 MR. O'KORN: May I approach, Judge?
15 the second page? 15 THE COURT: Sure.
16 A. Yes. 16 ---
17 Q. I see a figure down there for $500,000. 17 And, thereupon, State's Exhibit No. 45 was
18 Is that what you're referring to when you said you 18 marked for purposes of identification.
19 thought it valued the leasehold interest at $500,000? 19 ---
20 A. Yes, it is. 20 BY MR. O'KORN:
21 Q. Let's go to the Koon appraisal. So that's 21 Q. So before I ask you about State's 45,
22 back to State's Exhibit 12. And it's going to be -- 22 let's go back to August 2018. You testified the Koon
23 I know it's a thick document. It's -- About 60 23 appraisal was attached to the notice of intent,
24 percent of the way through it, it's page number G29 24 correct?
25 in the bottom right-hand corner. 25 A. That's correct.
Page 444 Page 445
1 Q. Was the Weiler appraisal provided to the 1 marked for purposes of identification.
2 club at or before that time? 2 ---
3 A. It was not. 3 BY MR. O'KORN:
4 Q. Was the -- When approximately would the 4 Q. Can you identify State's 46, Mr. Logan?
5 Weiler appraisal, if you know, have been provided to 5 A. Yes. This is a letter that I received,
6 the club or their attorneys? 6 which the Attorney General's office sent to
7 A. It was when we were beginning the final 7 Moundbuilders' counsel stating that they had realized
8 preparations for the hearing that we're in now. 8 that the 500,000 figure was not the leasehold value.
9 Q. So take a look at State's 45. Have you 9 Q. So just to backtrack, you -- you testified
10 seen this document before? 10 that you came to a point in time where you realized
11 A. Yes, I have. 11 that $500,000 figure in the Weiler report did not
12 Q. Were you provided a copy of that document? 12 value the club's leasehold interest; is that true?
13 A. I was at the time, yes. 13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Is this a true and accurate copy of the 14 Q. What time period would that have been?
15 correspondence you received? 15 When?
16 A. Yes, it is. 16 A. It was when I received this letter.
17 Q. Based on this correspondence, was it your 17 Q. So --
18 understanding the Weiler report was provided to the 18 A. January 25, 2019.
19 club for the first time at or around January 18, 19 Q. True and accurate copy of the letter?
20 2019? 20 A. Yes, it is.
21 A. That's correct. 21 Q. So you get this letter. Did you have an
22 MR. O'KORN: Judge, may I approach? 22 opportunity to go back and look at the Weiler report
23 THE COURT: You may. 23 after you received this letter?
24 --- 24 A. Yes, I went back and looked at it.
25 And, thereupon, State's Exhibit No. 46 was 25 Q. Were you able to identify within the
3/19/2019 33 (446 - 449)
Page 446 Page 447
1 Weiler report whether there was a specific -- as it 1 Q. Mr. Logan, had you have known that you
2 turns out, a specific valuation of the club's 2 could have calculated a -- the club's leasehold
3 leasehold estate interest? 3 valuation from the Weiler report at $1.75 million, if
4 A. There was not. 4 you had known that back in August 2018 when the
5 Q. Mr. Logan, at or around this time -- so 5 notice was served on the club, would you have
6 we're talking January 25, 2019 -- did you come to an 6 attached the Weiler report to that notice instead of
7 understanding that one could calculate a leasehold 7 the Koon report?
8 valuation by doing some subtraction of the numbers 8 A. I would not.
9 presented in the Weiler report on Page 3 that we've 9 Q. And why not?
10 already talked about? 10 A. When I compared what I thought was the
11 A. Yes. It was explained to me that that 11 leasehold value of 500,000 with what was the
12 would arrive at the leasehold value. 12 leasehold value of 800,000, 300,000 separation seemed
13 Q. And what is your understanding about can a 13 logical to me based upon my knowledge of what was
14 leasehold -- a lease -- what would be the leasehold 14 sold for -- in and around central Ohio in the last
15 valuation if you did that calculation in the Weiler 15 few years in fee simple. To begin to compare the
16 report? 16 800,000 with 1,750,000 leasehold value is entirely
17 A. That one would take the fee simple 17 different. The spread would have been too great in
18 valuation of 2,250,000, subtract the 500,000 that I 18 my mind to immediately -- to attach the appraisal,
19 thought was the leasehold value, and would arrive at 19 and I would have wanted to have done more due
20 1,750,000. 20 diligence and understand better find why that spread
21 Q. And just so we're on the same page, no pun 21 was used.
22 intended, the two numbers you're referring to in the 22 Q. So we've all been together now for a day
23 Weiler report, it's labeled Page 2, with John Gleason 23 and a half. You were sitting next to me when
24 at the top, January 26, 2018? 24 Mr. Fraley said in his opening statement that the
25 A. Yes, it is. 25 History Connection has hid an appraisal, referring to
Page 448 Page 449
1 the Weiler appraisal, the History Connection has 1 Connection. Before we do that, let's -- I'd like to
2 engaged in bad faith. What is your reaction to that 2 describe -- You mentioned West Point in your answer
3 accusation? 3 to my last question. Can you briefly describe your
4 A. I graduated from West Point. And one 4 educational background for the judge.
5 thing that I will carry with me to the grave is an 5 A. Certainly. So I graduated from the U.S.
6 unwavering sense of honor, not to lie, not to cheat, 6 Military Academy at West Point with a general
7 not to steal, not to seek an unfair advantage and not 7 bachelor of science degree in June 1976. I have a
8 to have an intent to deceive. I believe if you ask 8 master of arts in history museum studies from the
9 every person I've worked with, the current staff at 9 Cooperstown graduate program in Cooperstown, New
10 the Ohio History Connection, people I've worked with 10 York, that I earned in 1983. And I also attended the
11 throughout my career, the four boards of trustees 11 Museum Leadership Institute run by the Getty
12 that I've managed museums for, everyone I've come in 12 Foundation in Los Angeles, an intensive three week
13 contact with, with the exception of Moundbuilders 13 training for senior museum executives in 2005.
14 Country Club, would confirm that I have never engaged 14 Q. Can you briefly describe your work history
15 in an intent to deceive. 15 up until the point you became the executive director
16 Your Honor, I want to assure this Court 16 of the Ohio History Connection.
17 that I would not throw away my character, my honor, 17 A. Yes. Upon graduation from West Point, I
18 my integrity, a reputation that I've spent a lifetime 18 was commissioned field artillery officer, and I
19 building and guarding, I would not toss that aside 19 served on active duty with the first infantry
20 for two appraisals for a golf course that I would try 20 division for five years. Following my graduation
21 and manipulate. I can testify that we would not hide 21 from the Cooperstown graduate program, I was the
22 an appraisal, neither I nor the organization; and I 22 director of a county historical society in
23 resent any accusation to the contrary that we did. 23 Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania, from 1983 to 1986. From
24 Q. All right. Mr. Logan, let's move on and 24 1986 to 1995, I was the director of the Wisconsin
25 talk about your job duties with the History 25 Maritime Museum in Manitowoc, Wisconsin. From 1995
3/19/2019 34 (450 - 453)
Page 450 Page 451
1 until 2009, I was the director of the U.S. 1 A. Yes, I did. When I started in 1995 -- and
2 Constitution Museum in Boston. And I began my 2 I don't intend this to be a pun talking about a naval
3 current job in December of 2009. 3 museum -- but the organization really was adrift. It
4 I also served a five-year period as the 4 didn't -- It had a mission that was focused primarily
5 chairman of the accreditation commission for the 5 on the ship. And one of the things that I've learned
6 American Alliance of Museums. This is the 6 throughout my career is that, by definition, all
7 accrediting body that awards the Good Housekeeping 7 museums have items. It could be art. It could be
8 seal of approval, accreditation to all museums in the 8 natural history. It could be historic items. So all
9 United States. I've chaired that body for five 9 museums are about something. And I've learned that
10 years. 10 museums that distinguish themselves, museums that
11 Q. Before we talk about your job duties with 11 have impact, museums that change communities and
12 History Connection, I want to go back to the U.S. 12 change lives, move from being about something to
13 Constitution Museum you talked about. What were your 13 being for somebody.
14 job duties when you were overseeing the U.S. 14 The U.S. Constitution Museum when I
15 Constitution Museum? 15 started was really about the ship. It's a national
16 A. Well, as the chief executive officer and 16 icon. It secured our first naval victory in the War
17 director of the museum, my responsibility was to lay 17 of 1812. I could spend 30 minutes talking about the
18 out a strategic vision for the organization, to 18 accolades that that ship has earned. But, primarily,
19 ensure -- provide internal and external leadership 19 the visitors to the museum learned only about the
20 and to ensure that the pieces fit together in a sense 20 ship. There was no connection to people, either
21 of program delivery, making sure that we had 21 contemporary or historic.
22 sufficient resources, both personnel and financial 22 So over a period of time, we really moved
23 and then we deliver that message to the public. 23 the museum from being about the ship itself to
24 Q. Did you have a role in crafting the 24 focusing on the historic crew and then reaching out
25 mission of that U.S. Constitution museum? 25 to visitors so that families, visitors of almost any
Page 452 Page 453
1 shape or description could find something appealing 1 site systems that we manage for the Ohioans.
2 and the program compelling. 2 Q. Just for purposes of the record, what's
3 Q. Did the visitation numbers change during 3 the business address of the History Connection?
4 your tenure as the head of the U.S. Constitution 4 A. It is 800 East 17th Avenue. So that is
5 Museum? 5 the Ohio History Center, which is the headquarters
6 A. Yes. When I arrived, our visitation was 6 for the Ohio History Connection. So the center is
7 roughly 80,000 a year. And within probably a two to 7 the location. The History Connection is the umbrella
8 three year period, it had moved to over 300,000. And 8 organization.
9 by the time I left, it was in the neighborhood of 9 Q. Very good. Can you describe your job
10 340,000 a year. 10 duties as the executive director of Ohio History
11 Q. Mr. Logan, what is the Ohio History 11 Connection.
12 Connection? 12 A. Yes. Once again, it is to provide
13 A. The Ohio History Connection -- we like to 13 strategic direction for the organization. It is to
14 describe ourselves as the State's history partner. 14 lead -- be the visible leader both internally and
15 We're a private nonprofit organization. We were 15 externally for the stakeholders and other groups.
16 established in 1885. And in return for funding 16 It's to make sure that our programs are fulfilling
17 through the State's general revenue budget, we 17 our mission, that they're relevant, that they're
18 fulfill five major functions on behalf of the people 18 compelling, that we have the necessary resources both
19 of Ohio. We offer the state archives that have our 19 from our state funding as well as our private
20 enduring paper records. We operate the state museum 20 philanthropy. We have a robust marketing plan to
21 where we showcase the artifacts and natural history 21 market the operations.
22 specimens that we care for. We operate the state 22 Can he have a minute, Judge, just to take
23 historic preservation office. We operate an outreach 23 a swig?
24 division that does education and outreach around the 24 THE COURT: Certainly.
25 state, and then we have 59 site system -- historic 25

3/19/2019 35 (454 - 457)
Page 454 Page 455
1 BY MR. O'KORN: 1 this a true and accurate copy of the original as far
2 Q. Mr. Logan, I'm going to have you refer to 2 as you know? Take your time to take a look.
3 State's Exhibit 17 in Volume I, so 17 in Volume I. 3 A. It's as complete as any I've seen.
4 It's a copy of an annual report for 2018 for the Ohio 4 Q. I'm going to have you turn to Pages 12 and
5 History Connection. 5 13 of the annual report.
6 Mr. Logan, does the Ohio History 6 A. All right. I'm there.
7 Connection produce an annual report? 7 Q. Can you identify what these pages are.
8 A. Yes, we do. It's one of our duties 8 A. Yes. This gives an overview of our
9 established in the Ohio Revised Code. 9 historic site system.
10 Q. Is the report -- Is it provided on an 10 Q. So what is a historic site?
11 annual basis? 11 A. Well, let me just quickly give a very
12 A. It is. We have to submit this to the 12 brief overview of our sites. We have 33 historic
13 governor and the general assembly each year. 13 sites which can be where, for example, a famous
14 Q. And are copies of the annual report 14 person was either born or grew up, such as the Grant
15 available at the History Connection? 15 Homestead -- or the Grant Boyhood Home in Georgetown.
16 A. Yes. We distribute it and make it 16 An historic site can be such as Fort Meigs in
17 available at the Ohio History Connection Center. 17 Harrisburg.
18 Q. Can you identify this particular annual 18 Moving from those 33 historic sites, we
19 report? 19 have twelve museums that tell a much greater story
20 A. This is our one for fiscal year 2018, June 20 than is usually told by a single site. The Neil
21 30. 21 Armstrong museum in Wapakoneta, his hometown, for
22 Q. Is this a record that's kept in the course 22 example, talks not only about Mr. Armstrong and the
23 of regularly conducted business activity? 23 space program in general. The museum of ceramics in
24 A. Yes, it is. 24 East Liverpool talks about how Liverpool at one time
25 Q. I may have already asked you this. Is 25 was the ceramics pottery capital of the world.
Page 456 Page 457
1 If we move down, we have four natural 1 state partners" -- or site partners.
2 sites, Cedar Bog outside of Urbana, for example, is 2 A. Yes. So we've entered in two agreements
3 the last remnant of the Ice Age flora that populated 3 with 42 groups around the state to manage and oversee
4 Ohio during that time. We have nine archaeological 4 the daily operation of 51 of our sites.
5 sites in addition to the one that we're talking about 5 Q. Let me know when you're running low on
6 here today, the Octagon Earthworks. Flint Ridge is 6 water.
7 an archaeological site down in Peebles. We have two 7 A. Okay. So the local site partner has
8 boats, a canal boat in Piqua that operates on a 8 responsibility for the day-to-day operation, the
9 portion of the Miami Erie canal, and we have the W.P. 9 day-to-day management of the site. We still provide
10 Snyder in Marietta that talks about the commerce on 10 support through tutorial, through education, staff,
11 the Ohio River. So, collectively, all of those form 11 through marketing; and then the State still has
12 our sites. 12 responsibility for capital improvements and capital
13 Q. So tell me, who owns these sites and can 13 investments. So it's a three-prong partnership.
14 it vary? 14 Q. So when I look at this list, I don't see
15 A. The State owns -- the State of Ohio owns 15 the Octagon Earthworks on here. I do see Newark
16 the preponderance of them. We own quite a few as the 16 Earthworks. Can you explain that.
17 Ohio History Connection, but the majority of them are 17 A. Yes. The Newark Earthworks would include
18 owned by the State. 18 both the Great Circle and the Octagon.
19 Q. And does the Ohio History Connection own 19 Q. Let's talk about visitation hours and
20 the Octagon Earthworks? 20 access to these sites. In the list that's in front
21 A. Yes, we do. 21 of you, approximately how many are fully accessible
22 Q. I see in here, it talks -- it's the top of 22 to the public during daylight hours?
23 Page 13. It says it oversees 59 historic sites, 23 A. For all intents and purposes, all except
24 museums managed locally by our state partners. Can 24 three, are available for public access in daylight
25 you explain what that means, "managed locally by our 25 hours.
3/19/2019 36 (458 - 461)
Page 458 Page 459
1 Q. What would those three be? 1 do restoration to the site if it's not 100 percent
2 A. One that's listed is Poindexter Village. 2 authentic. Based upon what we find through our
3 We just acquired that, the site in Columbus last 3 research, we can make those changes and make those
4 year. We're in the process of restoring it, and it 4 restorations. But ultimately, the reason that we
5 will be open to the public in 2022. Tallmadge Church 5 engage in research is to share our findings with
6 in the Village of Tallmadge is open by appointment 6 Ohioans. After all, Ohioans are paying for these
7 with the site management partner which is in the city 7 sites through their tax dollars, and we believe that
8 of Tallmadge and then, of course, the Octagon 8 we have a responsibility to provide them the best
9 Earthworks and the Circle. 9 possible experience based upon the most extensive
10 Q. You said Octagon and -- 10 knowledge that we have on the site.
11 A. And the accompanying circle. 11 Q. The -- I want to take you back to 2009
12 Q. I want to transition now and talk just 12 when you became the executive director of the History
13 generally. What are the History Connection's public 13 Connection. What was its vision then as far as you
14 duties for these sites? 14 could tell?
15 A. Well, we have several public duties; 15 A. I'm not sure that the organization really
16 foremost is to preserve the sites. Any time a site 16 had a vision per se, somewhat like the Constitution
17 is compromised or lost, you lose the information 17 museum when I started in 1995. The organization sort
18 associated with it, and that window into the past 18 of lost its way. There had been precipitous cuts in
19 closes forever. So first and foremost is 19 funding. There had been staff exodus. In fact, one
20 preservation. 20 member of the research committee shared with me --
21 But we just don't keep objects or keep 21 who was trustee shared we me probably five or six
22 sites for the sake of preserving them. They contain 22 months after I took the job, he said, "I feel guilty
23 information. They have stories that they can tell; 23 about recruiting you here because this organization
24 and it's only when we begin to unlock those stories 24 will be gone in five years." Didn't give me a lot of
25 through research that we're able to, in some cases, 25 faith and confidence.
Page 460 Page 461
1 Q. Before I ask you about the process, what 1 divisions together, and I explained to the staff that
2 is the vision today, ten years later? 2 while we're responsible for preserving sites and
3 A. The vision today is to connect in every 3 preserving objects and really doing history, our
4 way you can with every Ohioan. That in large part 4 ultimate responsibility is to people. And I
5 led to our name change in 2014. The Ohio Historical 5 identified the three people that I think are most
6 Society had done many good things; but as I said a 6 important that we have to serve, first of all, are
7 moment ago, it had sort of become stagnant. As I 7 the people whose heritage we've been entrusted with.
8 said, I believe it sort of lost its way. And what we 8 And I laid the hypothetical: If those people from
9 wanted to do is create an organization -- new 9 the past could be brought back, would they approve of
10 organization that would reach out across Ohio and 10 the job that we're doing caring for their heritage?
11 find new ways to connect with Ohioans to help them 11 The second group that I think are so
12 understand the wonderful heritage that has been given 12 important are Ohioans. As I said earlier, we're
13 to us. 13 supported in part by taxpayer dollars, and I think we
14 Q. You talk about the vision in '09 and then 14 have a responsibility to every Ohioan to do our
15 what it is here in 2019. I know you mentioned the 15 absolute best to preserve -- to preserve and
16 name change. Were there any other steps that you 16 interpret that history. And then the last group is
17 took to implement this changed vision? 17 to make sure that those resources that we maintain,
18 A. Well, very first thing I did happened 18 be it sites, be it documents, that they're available
19 before I even walked in the door. I left my former 19 for Ohioans to come, or anyone from out of Ohio,
20 job in Boston in November of 2009. I started here in 20 whoever it may be and that when we come, we exceed
21 December. So I used that month somewhat to 21 their expectation, they leave saying, "Wow. This was
22 decompress from my former job, but really to begin 22 cool. I had no idea this was true about Ohio. I
23 thinking about how to instill a new vision, new sense 23 learned something new."
24 of values and new direction for this organization. 24 Not only did I talk to the staff as soon
25 And when I started, I called all of our 25 as I started, but in the last nine years, I meet
3/19/2019 37 (462 - 465)
Page 462 Page 463
1 monthly with new staff as they come aboard; and I 1 slides here at Page 24 of State's Exhibit 16?
2 explain to them that that is part of our vision as an 2 A. Well, since 1885, we have collected an
3 organization because not only are we about something, 3 enormous quantity of artifacts, natural history
4 the sites, the objects, the documents, we're for 4 specimens that tell the story of Ohio. And those
5 somebody. We're for the people from the past. We're 5 objects right now occupy six very delapidated
6 for Ohioans. We're for people that come and use our 6 warehouses. The objects are at risk for damage, and
7 services. 7 we have been seeking capital funds for a number of
8 Q. I'm going to have you go to State's 8 years to build a new facility. If I could contrast
9 Exhibit 16. Take a look at 16. I know it's a 9 what I believe the Ohio Historical Society had done,
10 35-page document. And I want you to -- Can you 10 I believe they would have built the warehouse and put
11 identify this? 11 the objects in --
12 A. Yes, I can. It's a PowerPoint that I 12 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Your Honor, objection.
13 developed as part of a briefing to the Director of 13 Speculation.
14 the Office of Budget and Management that I gave in -- 14 MR. O'KORN: Well, I think he has some
15 sometime in the spring of 2016. 15 foundational testimony to what -- because he got
16 Q. And I'm going to have you specifically 16 there in 2009 and what the organization was like
17 turn to Page 24 of State's Exhibit 16. 17 then. And then he's saying what the organization is
18 A. Yes. 18 like now. So I think he's just giving a specific
19 Q. Can you describe this slide and why it 19 example -- and I think it would be brief -- of what
20 would be in this presentation. Let me take a step 20 would have happened back then when he got there
21 back first. Who would this presentation have been 21 versus what would have happened now.
22 given to? 22 THE COURT: Overruled. Go ahead.
23 A. So to the director of the Office of Budget 23 A. So as it's laid out here in 2010, the Ohio
24 and Management. 24 Historical Society, they were focused, having a
25 Q. So what's the purpose of having these 25 perception being closed, looking at actually
Page 464 Page 465
1 preserving the organization itself. And I believe 1 A. We want to turn the Octagon into a public
2 the type of facility they would have built to house 2 park that would provide educational opportunities
3 the artifacts simply would have been a warehouse. 3 to -- for Ohioans to explore the site, have
4 We, on the other hand, as the Ohio History 4 unfettered access to allow us to do research when
5 Connection, being outwardly focused, wanting to 5 research needs to be done and research can be done;
6 connect with Ohioans, we envision a much larger 6 from that research to help inform Ohioans even better
7 facility for this vast collection of objects that 7 than we can today on the use of that site and its
8 will be open to Ohioans to come in to see, to 8 role in Ohio's story 2,000 years ago.
9 explore, to learn from without, in any way, damaging 9 Q. You were here. You heard Dr. Ruby testify
10 the objects. So it's closed versus open. Reaching 10 about educational activities and research activities
11 out to Ohioans is what we're trying to do. 11 that are conducted at the Hopewell Cultural National
12 Q. Very good. Let's turn now to the Octagon 12 Park. Do you intend -- If successful, and if full
13 Earthworks. One more question before we specifically 13 public access is restored, do you -- as the chief
14 turn to it. Based on the testimony you've been 14 executive officer of this organization, do you intend
15 provided, do you think that Ohioans can connect with 15 that similar education and research opportunities
16 these historic sites that don't have full public 16 would be conducted at the site?
17 access? 17 A. Absolutely. We want to, in essence,
18 A. No, they cannot. 18 rejuvenate the site.
19 Q. And why is that? 19 Q. When you say rejuvenate, explain,
20 A. Because the access is limited. The 20 elaborate on what you mean by that.
21 research is limited. We're inhibited by what we can 21 A. Well, if I could give some other examples
22 do to really make sites that need full access to come 22 from our site system. This is going back to when I
23 alive the way we can other sites. 23 began in 2009, 2010. There was a backlog of deferred
24 Q. Why is the Ohio History Connection seeking 24 maintenance, in some cases going back 20, 30, even 40
25 to acquire the club's lease now? 25 years. And over the last decade, we have invested
3/19/2019 38 (466 - 469)
Page 466 Page 467
1 considerable funds to address that deferred 1 2010, 2011. We conducted an historic structures
2 maintenance. And I think the -- probably the best 2 survey, which is analogous to the magnetometry for
3 example I can cite is the Rankin house in Ripley. 3 resistance testing. For a house, the historic survey
4 This was the home of John Rankin who was a 4 is the same as what you would do to the site. We had
5 Presbyterian minister and abolitionist. He and his 5 done full restoration of the home. We built a new
6 family, by their count, helped over 2,200 fugitive 6 parking lot which didn't exist before. We built a
7 slaves escape into Ohio. And in fact, Harriet 7 visitors center.
8 Beecher Stowe visited the house in -- 8 And to go back to what I said a moment ago
9 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Your Honor, objection. 9 about people from the past coming back. I believe
10 Just relevance to the question that I don't even 10 that the Rankin family could walk in the house today,
11 remember. 11 and they would feel very much at home; and we would
12 MR. O'KORN: Well, he had said that -- I 12 seek to do the same thing at the Octagon, that if
13 asked him the question about Dr. Ruby and whether 13 those who came here 2,000 years ago were to come
14 they intend to engage in similar educational research 14 back, they would say, "Yes. This is the Octagon as
15 activities. He talked about rejuvenation, "I want to 15 we remember it when we were here."
16 rejuvenate the site." 16 Q. The -- We're going to next transition and
17 "What do you mean by that?" And he's just 17 talk about World Heritage for a few minutes. But
18 giving an example. And I think he can quickly wrap 18 let's say World Heritage doesn't happen. We can go
19 up at how he's done it at another site. That's all. 19 into the future, it doesn't get approved. Is it
20 THE COURT: Go ahead. 20 History Connection's intention to still convert the
21 A. So it's a very important historic site in 21 course into a public park?
22 the Underground Railroad. We acquired the site in 22 A. Absolutely, yes.
23 1939, roughly six years or so after we acquired 23 Q. Is it dependent -- This sounds redundant,
24 the -- became the owner of the Octagon. We had done 24 but bear with me. Is the decision to file this case
25 nothing to that site to speak of from 1939 until 25 and to try to convert this site into a public park
Page 468 Page 469
1 dependent on what happens with the World Heritage 1 you finish your course of study.
2 process? 2 We were told that the sites had all the
3 A. No, it is not. 3 qualities of World Heritage, but we still needed to
4 Q. Let's talk about the World Heritage due 4 go through the process. The early part of that we
5 diligence that History Connection undertook. When 5 were building infrastructure, learning from other
6 was the first time you became aware of the 6 sites, what their nomination process was. We were
7 possibility of a World Heritage designation for the 7 reaching out to Steve Morris' office. We were
8 Newark Earthworks? 8 reaching out to the UNESCO international office. We
9 A. It was shortly after I began, I'd say late 9 were getting a steering committee established.
10 2009, early 2010. 10 In 2011, we had a national World Heritage
11 Q. Now, we've already had some testimony. 11 conference that brought together national experts.
12 We're going to time this out and go in chronological 12 They recommended we bring international experts in,
13 order. Regarding your testimony about this World 13 as we did in 2013. They recommended that we get an
14 Heritage tour in 2013, you come in, you start in '09, 14 official advisory mission from ICOMOS, which we did
15 you mentioned the tentative list in '08. Can you 15 in 2015, gather a report. All that leading to 2018
16 give the judge an idea if anything was going on at 16 with the publication of the federal register inviting
17 the History Connection, vis-à-vis this World Heritage 17 us to be the next site to go forward with World
18 process for this site, up to the World Heritage tour 18 Heritage.
19 in 2013? 19 Q. Let's quickly jump through a few documents
20 A. Well, we were -- I think it's apparent now 20 along the way. Can you turn to State's Exhibit 27.
21 that even though the site is on the World Heritage 21 That's 27.
22 tentative list, there's still a lot of work. And I 22 A. All right.
23 like to think of it as getting the acceptance letter 23 Q. Before you identify -- Go ahead and
24 from the admissions department and getting admitted 24 identify that for me first, Mr. Logan.
25 to the college, but you don't get your diploma until 25 A. So these are the meeting notes that were
3/19/2019 39 (470 - 473)
Page 470 Page 471
1 kept during the four day visit in August of 2013 by 1 to go back a few. Let's go to Exhibit 24. State's
2 the advisory -- the unofficial advisory group 2 24. Oh, and I should have told you. Yes. It's in
3 composed of representatives who are familiar with 3 the other binder. It's in the back. Take your time.
4 ICOMOS. 4 I know it took me time to get to it.
5 Q. Were these notes created in the course of 5 A. All right.
6 regularly conducted business activity? 6 Q. Can you identify what's at State's 24?
7 A. Yes, they were. 7 A. Yes. This is the letter sent by Steve
8 Q. Now I want to go forward. We'll leave 27. 8 Morris in the Office of International Affairs at our
9 Let's go to Exhibit 28. 9 request. It was sent to the World Heritage Centre
10 A. All right. 10 requesting an official advisory mission from ICOMOS.
11 Q. Bear with me for just a moment while I put 11 Q. Let's turn -- So did -- Did you ask the
12 this binder together. Can you identify it? What's 12 National Park Service, in particular Steve Morris, to
13 State's 28? 13 write this letter requesting this mission?
14 A. This is the letter that I received from 14 A. We cannot request a mission. It had to
15 Michael Bean, the deputy assistant secretary for 15 come from the state party, from the United States
16 Fish, Wildlife and Parks, in March of 2015. 16 government.
17 Q. There's already been some testimony. You 17 THE COURT: Which exhibit is it?
18 were here. Were there conversations between the 18 THE WITNESS: It's 23.
19 History Connection and the National Park Service 19 BY MR. O'KORN:
20 relating to these same topics before you received 20 Q. Let's go to 25. I'm going to give the
21 this letter? 21 judge a --
22 A. Oh, yes. There's been other discussion 22 So, Judge, it's -- those are the last two
23 for probably several years, the presence of the golf 23 exhibits in Volume I. So we're at State's 25.
24 course on the site. 24 BY MR. O'KORN:
25 Q. All right. Let's now go to -- We're going 25 Q. Can you identify that document?
Page 472 Page 473
1 A. Yes, I can. 1 America.
2 Q. What is it? 2 Q. So let me take you a step back. In this
3 A. So this is the contract that was signed 3 particular contract at Paragraph 1, who is -- I want
4 between the Ohio History Connection -- I signed it as 4 you to read that. Take your time. Who is identified
5 executive director -- between the organization and 5 as the state party representative?
6 ICOMOS for the advisory -- the advisory mission by 6 A. I was looking at the part -- It was the
7 Margaret Gowen. 7 Ohio Historical Society.
8 Q. So is this a true and accurate copy of the 8 Q. Please turn to Article 5, which is at the
9 original as far as you know? 9 bottom of Page 2 of this letter.
10 A. Yes, it is. 10 A. Right. Okay.
11 Q. And is that a copy of your signature, 11 Q. Go down to the third line which says:
12 then, at the bottom of Page 3? 12 Following the site visit, the report on the findings
13 A. Yes, it is. 13 and recommendations shall be submitted to the state
14 Q. Let's just -- I want to point out a couple 14 party representative by December 22, 2015. Do you
15 provisions. In Article 2, which is on the bottom of 15 see that?
16 Page 1 of this contract, in the paragraph under 16 A. I do.
17 Article 2, it starts out: The contractor will 17 Q. Was such a report prepared?
18 appoint a competent expert to effectuate the mission. 18 A. Yes, it was.
19 Who was that expert? 19 Q. And let's go to State's 26.
20 A. That was Margaret Gowen. 20 A. All right.
21 Q. And then I want to turn you to -- Let's go 21 Q. So the contract mentions "the report." Is
22 back up to 1, Paragraph 1. The contract -- who was 22 this the report that's at 26 -- State's 26?
23 the contract identifying as the state party 23 A. Yes, it is.
24 representative? 24 Q. Let's go to State's -- Before we move on,
25 A. So the state party is the United States of 25 the contract at 25, the report at 26, are these
3/19/2019 40 (474 - 477)
Page 474 Page 475
1 records -- are these records that are regularly 1 Q. This particular document, right.
2 maintained and created in the course of business 2 A. I'm not sure who is the particular person.
3 activity? 3 It was prepared in consultation with some of our
4 A. Yes, they are. 4 staff and members of the World Heritage Ohio
5 Q. So let's go to 40. There's been some 5 Committee.
6 testimony about 40 already. 40 is in Volume II. 6 Q. Real briefly, and we'll move on. It says
7 A. All right. 7 World Heritage Ohio Steering Committee. What's that?
8 Q. Can you identify what's at State's 40? 8 A. So that is a -- I think you can envision
9 A. Yes, I can. This was a summation of the 9 it as a broad based friends group with stakeholders
10 Gowen report that was -- 10 and representatives from a number of organizations as
11 MR. CRAWFORD: Your Honor, can we have a 11 well as individuals that are committed to ensuring
12 minute? 12 that the World Heritage inscription occurs.
13 THE COURT: Sure. What was the question? 13 Q. I want you to turn to State's Exhibit 11.
14 MR. O'KORN: Just wanted him to identify 14 A. All right.
15 and explain what it is, if he could. 15 Q. Okay. Before I ask you about State's
16 A. This is a summation of the Gowen report as 16 Exhibit 11: You've gone through the world tour in
17 prepared by World Heritage Ohio as the advisory 17 2013, the ICOMOS mission, the ICOMOS report, the info
18 group. 18 sheet that was produced afterwards. Was -- This
19 MR. O'KORN: Your Honor, can I just have 19 information that we've gone through, was it conveyed,
20 one moment? 20 at or around the same time you received it, to the
21 THE COURT: Sure. 21 board of directors of the Ohio History Connection?
22 BY MR. O'KORN: 22 A. Yes. The board was updated on the
23 Q. Who prepared the document that is State's 23 findings, yes.
24 40? 24 Q. So let's drill it down just a little bit.
25 A. Who prepared -- 25 Would there have been an occasion -- for example,
Page 476 Page 477
1 would the board have been provided a copy of the 1 Q. Is this resolution a document that would
2 Gowen report? 2 have been created in the regular course of business
3 A. They were provided different reports. I 3 activity?
4 can't specifically say that they received a copy of 4 A. Yes, it is.
5 the Gowen report, but they certainly, I know, 5 Q. Let's go to Exhibit 10 right after that.
6 received a very detailed summation of it and very 6 Can you identify what we have at 10? We won't spend
7 detailed dissertation. 7 much time with this. But can you identify that?
8 Q. And how about -- Let's go back to the '13 8 A. Yes. This is the copy from the federal
9 World Heritage tour. I'm just going to say that 9 register of May of last year, May 25, 2018, which
10 because that's what's identified on the notes. Would 10 invited the Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks to begin
11 the board have been briefed on that and what these 11 preparing the nomination -- or the Ohio History
12 experts are saying after the visit? 12 Connection to begin preparing the nomination for the
13 A. Yes, they were. The board was, yes. 13 Hopewell Ceremonial Earthworks to go forward with
14 Q. Was the board briefed on or otherwise 14 World Heritage.
15 shown the letter that's at State's Exhibit -- I think 15 Q. What's your understanding of, like --
16 I have a good memory here -- 29 that the National 16 We've heard some testimony. Where is the Ohio
17 Park Service sent to you back in 2015? 17 History Connection in the process? Now that there's
18 A. Yes. 18 an authorization to nominate, where is it at in the
19 Q. And it's 28. My fault. 19 process right now?
20 A. Yes, they did. 20 A. We're preparing the nomination, the
21 Q. Can you identify what's at State's Exhibit 21 dossier. And I think, as we've heard Steve Morris
22 11? 22 testified this morning, it's a very extensive process
23 A. State's Exhibit 11 is the resolution which 23 and produces very voluminous documents, so we're
24 the board passed to appropriate the leasehold of 24 working hard on that.
25 Moundbuilders dated October 18, 2018. 25 Q. If the golf course remains on the property
3/19/2019 41 (478 - 481)
Page 478 Page 479
1 throughout the life of the lease, if we lose the case 1 going to be about the future. I want to turn to the
2 and we can't acquire the lease, will you, as the 2 Great Circle just for a minute. There's been a lot
3 executive director, authorize the completion of the 3 of testimony about the Great Circle, a lot of
4 nomination file to even send it to the Department of 4 questions about the Great Circle.
5 Interior? 5 You heard Mr. Fraley, I believe in his
6 A. I will not. 6 questioning to Brad Lepper, say three or four
7 Q. And why is that? 7 research projects have been done at the Great Circle
8 A. Because the Code of Federal Regulation 8 in 60 years and then we go another 60 years. I mean,
9 Title 36, Part 73 requires that we, the Ohio History 9 do you envision their being additional research or
10 Connection, have to prohibit, in perpetuity, any use 10 more research done at the Great Circle?
11 of the site that is not consistent with the universal 11 A. Absolutely.
12 value, that it's a representation of creative human 12 Q. And why would you say that?
13 genius and that it represents a unique and 13 A. Well, as I testified earlier, we had a
14 exceptional society, and golf is inconsistent with 14 maintenance -- a lot of deferred maintenance.
15 both the masterpiece and exceptional society, so I 15 Currently we have deferred research at the Great
16 would not sign the document saying that we had that 16 Circle. The fact that we haven't done it in the past
17 with perpetuity. 17 doesn't mean that we're not willing to do it in the
18 MR. O'KORN: Judge, can I just have 30 18 future. If I had been asked eleven years ago,
19 seconds? 19 "What's the status of any of these sites that had
20 THE COURT: Sure. 20 deferred maintenance," I would have said, "Gee, we
21 MR. O'KORN: Just a couple more questions. 21 haven't touched them in 40 or 50 years." That has
22 THE COURT: Sure. 22 now changed. That will change for both the Great
23 BY MR. O'KORN: 23 Circle and the Octagon.
24 Q. I know you heard me do the opening 24 They were part of a complex that we've
25 statement about the case. From our perspective, it's 25 heard extensive testimony on, and we're committed to
Page 480 Page 481
1 doing research at both sites that will be 1 BY MR. JOSEPH FRALEY:
2 complementary. There will be a certain synergy. And 2 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Logan. Obviously, we
3 so similar cause, we've only done three research 3 know each other well at this point I think over the
4 projects in the last 60 years is not in any way 4 years.
5 suggestive of what we will do in the future. 5 A. Yes.
6 MR. O'KORN: I have no further questions. 6 Q. Mr. Logan, just real quickly. The
7 THE COURT: Cross. 7 appraisal that was mentioned at the beginning of your
8 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: May I have a short 8 direct examination. So there were two, and they were
9 break, please? 9 about 30 some days apart; is that accurate?
10 THE COURT: Sure. 10 A. As I recall, they were about 38 days.
11 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Your Honor, I don't 11 Q. Okay. And actually, an attorney ordered
12 know if now might be the time or maybe later today we 12 those; is that right?
13 could maybe talk about -- our schedule has changed a 13 A. I'm sorry?
14 little bit for us. 14 Q. An attorney ordered those, correct?
15 THE COURT: Sure. 15 A. Our counsel did, yes.
16 (Recess taken.) 16 Q. And that was John Gleason?
17 THE COURT: Thank you. Have a seat. All 17 A. Yes, it was.
18 right. We're back on the record. Are you ready to 18 Q. Okay. So you got the appraisals back.
19 begin cross? 19 And I believe you testified that there was an
20 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: I am. Thank you, Your 20 $800,000 appraisal and then what you thought was
21 Honor. 21 $500,000 appraisal; is that accurate?
22 THE COURT: You may inquire. 22 A. Yes, it is.
23 --- 23 Q. And you felt the honorable thing to do was
24 CROSS-EXAMINATION 24 to include the higher one for purposes of this
25 25 proceeding, true?
3/19/2019 42 (482 - 485)
Page 482 Page 483
1 A. I did. 1 leasehold value. I did not engage in doing any math
2 Q. Okay. Now, given that you had an attorney 2 before that.
3 order these, did the attorney go over them with you 3 Q. Okay. Well, you said you made the
4 when they were received? 4 decision that the honorable thing to do would be to
5 MR. O'KORN: Objection. Calls for 5 give the higher number, correct?
6 privileged communications. 6 A. I looked at 800,000, and I looked at the
7 THE COURT: Did you ask about his 7 500,000.
8 attorney? 8 Q. Okay. So now I'm a little confused. At
9 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Yeah. John Gleason is 9 what point in time did you learn that you or whoever
10 who I'm referring to. And, Your Honor, I'm not 10 was talking to you about this made a mistake and
11 trying to get into privileged information. But he's 11 the -- and the appraisal actually is 1.75 million?
12 testified that he did the math. I'm just trying to 12 A. It was when I received this letter from
13 find out -- The attorney ordered them. Did the -- 13 the attorney general's office, dated January 25,
14 THE COURT: What's your question? 14 2018.
15 BY MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: 15 THE COURT: Is there an exhibit sticker on
16 Q. Did the attorney go over the appraisals 16 that?
17 with you, John Gleason? 17 THE WITNESS: It's Exhibit 46.
18 A. He did not. 18 BY MR. JOSEPH FRALEY:
19 Q. Okay. So he sent you the appraisals. You 19 Q. But it's correct that at no time prior to
20 went over them yourself. You did the math on the 20 the filing of this case did you provide that
21 Weiler appraisal -- what we'll refer to as the Weiler 21 appraisal to Moundbuilders; is that accurate?
22 appraisal; is that fair? Do you understand what I 22 A. The other letter lays out that
23 mean when I say "Weiler appraisal"? 23 Moundbuilders received it on January 18.
24 A. I did the math after I was informed by the 24 Q. And that's after you had filed the notice
25 attorney general's office that the 500,000 was not a 25 of taking; is that accurate, sir?
Page 484 Page 485
1 A. That's correct. 1 the filing of this action, true?
2 Q. So I just want to finish this up. You had 2 A. Can you restate that, please.
3 indicated that you felt the honorable thing to do was 3 Q. I'm just trying to make it clear to the
4 to give us the higher number, true? 4 Court that the Weiler appraisal was not sent to
5 A. Correct. 5 Moundbuilders prior to the filing of this action.
6 Q. But yet, when you were given -- when your 6 A. It was not included in the good faith
7 mistake was corrected, you thought you didn't -- you 7 offer. We gave the appraisal that was
8 said you didn't want to give that higher number. And 8 referenced -- or that we derived for the good faith
9 you had a reason, and I wasn't following your reason. 9 offer. I saw no reason to send an appraisal that we
10 A. I'll explain the reason again. 10 elected not to include in our good faith offer.
11 Q. Okay. 11 Q. Okay. And you made that decision based
12 A. When I thought I was comparing apples and 12 upon your understanding of the appraisals, and they
13 apples of 500,000 and 800,000, to me, that was close 13 were just too far apart; is that accurate?
14 enough to each other to give the benefit of the doubt 14 A. No. I made that -- I made that
15 to the 800,000. 15 understanding of 500,000 versus 800,000. That was
16 Q. Okay. So -- 16 what we submitted in August -- on August 28. I
17 A. When I learned that it was 800,000 versus 17 learned about the mistake that had been made in
18 1,750,000, that's a much wider spread, and it changed 18 January, and I saw no reason to submit an appraisal
19 my understanding. 19 that had nothing to do with the good faith offer or
20 Q. And so the honorable thing to do was 20 with our notice of intent.
21 really tied to the differences in the two appraisals? 21 Q. So you saw no reason to submit an
22 A. The comparison of 800 versus 500 and the 22 appraisal that was higher?
23 comparison of 800 versus 1,750,000, yes. 23 A. But the appraisal was not higher as I
24 Q. Okay. And at no time, given that higher 24 looked at it.
25 appraisal, was that sent to Moundbuilders prior to 25 Q. But you learned that you were wrong.
3/19/2019 43 (486 - 489)
Page 486 Page 487
1 A. How could I go back and resubmit something 1 A. No, it was not. It had -- The appraisal
2 that I've already submitted? 2 that we gave you was the Koon appraisal at 800,000.
3 Q. Well, I mean, fairly easily. You send it 3 Q. Correct.
4 over. But withdrawn. 4 A. I thought the Weiler appraisal was
5 A. But it was sent. I want to be very clear 5 500,000, and I set it aside. We gave you the
6 here, that it was sent. 6 800,000, which was our understanding of the higher of
7 Q. I understand it was sent. 7 the two, and I saw no reason to give an appraisal
8 A. On January 18, a full week before we 8 that had nothing to do with our notice of intent and
9 even -- I even learned that I was mistaken in my 9 good faith offer.
10 interpretation of the values. 10 Q. Okay. Fair enough. Did you ever tell the
11 Q. Well, isn't it true it was sent because 11 country club or represent to the country club that
12 Moundbuilders found it during their investigation? 12 the mounds would not be there had it not been for the
13 Is that accurate, if you know? 13 country club?
14 A. That's what I -- that's what I was told by 14 A. Me personally?
15 the attorney general's office, yes. 15 Q. Yes.
16 Q. Okay. So you didn't voluntarily send it. 16 THE COURT: What's the question?
17 We found it on our own, and then you sent it; is that 17 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Has he ever told the
18 accurate? 18 country club or representatives of the country club
19 A. I would go back to what I said a moment 19 that the mounds would not have been there had it not
20 ago. I saw no reason to voluntarily send an 20 been for the country club?
21 appraisal that had no connection with our good faith 21 A. I may have said that the country club has
22 offer tied to our notice of intent to acquire. 22 helped in preservation. I don't know that I said
23 Q. And the reason you didn't feel that was 23 those specific words.
24 because that happened to be two times -- over two 24 Q. Okay. In your deposition on Page 19 on
25 times the amount of the first appraisal? 25 Line 1, I think you denied saying that. Do you
Page 488 Page 489
1 remember that? 1 BY MR. JOSEPH FRALEY:
2 A. I don't have a copy of the deposition. 2 Q. So if you would really -- Just so I --
3 MR. O'KORN: Judge, I want to raise an 3 It's not an exhibit. But Page 19 -- It's right
4 objection at this point because the deposition is 4 there. And if you could just hold that back so you
5 under seal. So I don't know what part of the 5 can read it. And starting on question No. 1, if you
6 deposition -- I mean, I don't know what part of the 6 could read that question and then your answer, sir.
7 deposition -- Are you going to be getting into the 7 A. So the question is: Do you think the
8 part that goes into the negotiations? 8 mounds would be there if not for Moundbuilders
9 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: I'm not. 9 Country Club? My answer was: I do.
10 THE COURT: What was your answer? 10 Shall I keep reading?
11 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: I'm not going to. 11 Q. No. That's fine. Just so we're clear,
12 THE COURT: Okay. 12 you don't think you've ever said that to the club or
13 MS. CROSKEY: Do you have an extra copy of 13 represented that to the club?
14 the transcript? Do you have a copy of the transcript 14 A. I --
15 for the witness if you're going to impeach him? 15 MR. O'KORN: Objection. What's he
16 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: I'm going to approach 16 referring to now? Said what to the club? I'm lost.
17 him if that's okay, Your Honor. 17 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: He just read it.
18 THE COURT: Sure. 18 THE COURT: Yeah. But you offered it to
19 MR. O'KORN: So you only have one copy? 19 impeach his -- with a prior statement. It's a prior
20 THE COURT: There was a copy filed. It's 20 consistent statement. Did I hear right?
21 under seal. Go ahead. 21 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Well, I'm going to
22 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Your Honor, can I 22 impeach him now. I just wanted to -- He's kind of
23 approach? 23 changed his answer. Now he doesn't know.
24 THE COURT: Yes. 24 THE COURT: He said -- I mean, maybe I
25 25 misheard the question and answer. The question in
3/19/2019 44 (490 - 493)
Page 490 Page 491
1 the deposition was: Do you believe the mounds would 1 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Your Honor, I'm not
2 not exist but for country club, right? Or something 2 sure we've entered -- we haven't entered our
3 like that? 3 exhibits. But where are we at? What's our last --
4 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: I'll just read it if 4 THE COURT: Should be marked just to
5 that's okay. 5 identify it even if you don't offer it.
6 THE COURT: Go ahead. Maybe I'm missing 6 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Okay.
7 something. 7 MR. CRAWFORD: Exhibit J.
8 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Okay. 8 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Let's just mark it J
9 BY MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: 9 for purposes of this, Judge, and if there's a
10 Q. "Do you think the mounds would be there if 10 problem -- May I approach?
11 not for the country club?" 11 THE COURT: You may.
12 He says: I do. 12 BY MR. JOSEPH FRALEY:
13 I went on to say: You think they still 13 Q. If you could go ahead and identify that.
14 would be there? 14 A. All right.
15 I do. That's all I'm saying. 15 Q. And what is this, sir?
16 THE COURT: Well, that's what he just 16 A. This is a letter that was originally
17 testified to. 17 signed by Glenda Greenwood, who at that time was
18 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: That's not what he 18 president of the board of trustees of the site.
19 testified to. But anyway, let me just go to this if 19 Q. Okay. Could you read for the record,
20 that's okay. Your Honor, may I approach? 20 please, the second sentence in Paragraph 2 starting
21 THE COURT: Sure. 21 with the word "we."
22 MR. O'KORN: We need a copy. He's 22 A. We recognize that without the club's
23 approaching the witness with an exhibit. 23 occupancy, there's a very strong likelihood that the
24 MR. CRAWFORD: There's two copies. 24 earthworks would have been lost to residential
25 THE COURT: Is it labeled? 25 development many years ago. We thank MCC for its
Page 492 Page 493
1 stewardship. 1 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Simply what I'm
2 Q. Okay. Thank you. So when asked as to why 2 asking --
3 you were taking the club or why you would propose to 3 THE COURT: What is the question?
4 take the club, I think you listed two things, one, 4 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Does he know of any
5 access being limited and research is limited. Is 5 document that tells Moundbuilders that they would
6 that accurate? 6 like to take the property because of scientific
7 A. Yes, it is. 7 research or access which is what he testified to
8 Q. Okay. Isn't it true that there's been no 8 before.
9 more research done at Great Circle than there has 9 THE COURT: You may answer.
10 been at Moundbuilders Country Club? Is that an 10 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Go ahead.
11 accurate statement? 11 A. I don't know of any document, no.
12 A. Yes, it is. 12 Q. Okay. And just so I'm clear, the first
13 Q. And as we established, and I believe you 13 document that I've been able to find is in the -- is
14 testified before, there's been approximately three 14 in the notice of taking. Would that be the first
15 research missions done over 60 years -- 15 document that you know of?
16 A. That's my understanding -- 16 MR. O'KORN: Objection. Vague. Know of?
17 Q. -- correct? 17 For what purpose?
18 A. -- based on Dr. Lepper's testimony. 18 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: I'm simply asking: Is
19 Q. Now, when was the first time that you're 19 the notice of taking the first document that that
20 aware of a document that indicates that Ohio History 20 appears in?
21 Connection wants to take the site or to do scientific 21 MR. O'KORN: That what appears in?
22 research or provide more access? Are you aware of 22 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Well, the previous
23 any specific document that would say that? 23 question that scientific research and access is one
24 MR. O'KORN: Objection. Compound 24 of the reasons stated for what you said, "Why are you
25 question. It's confusing. 25 taking?"
3/19/2019 45 (494 - 497)
Page 494 Page 495
1 THE COURT: You can answer if you know. 1 A. Yes, it is.
2 A. I can't say with certainty. I imagine it 2 Q. Okay. Do you recall, Mr. Logan, when was
3 is. But that's about as complete an answer as I can 3 the first time you approached the club about vacating
4 give. 4 the property?
5 Q. Sure. I understand. And I realize 5 A. It was sometime in 2012, 2013. Glenda
6 there's a lot of documents out there. But that was 6 Greenwood and I met with Jim Larimer, who was then
7 my thought, that I hadn't seen anything previous. 7 president.
8 So isn't it accurate that all the other 8 Q. So roughly four to five years later after
9 information and letters to Moundbuilders only talked 9 the -- after the site went on the tentative list,
10 about World Heritage as a reason? Is that not 10 that's when you approached the club, correct?
11 accurate? 11 A. Yes.
12 A. Possibly. I, again, without seeing each 12 Q. Mr. Logan, in terms of history, 60 years
13 letter, couldn't give a definite answer. But I know 13 is a mere moment in time comparatively; would you
14 that a lot of our conversation did revolve around 14 agree?
15 World Heritage, yes. 15 A. It's a mere moment in time compared to
16 Q. Now, isn't it a fact that this site went 16 what?
17 on the tentative World Heritage list in 2008, 17 Q. In regard to history, 60 years is not a
18 correct? 18 long time; is that accurate?
19 A. That preceded me, but that's what I am 19 A. If you're talking about the history of an
20 aware. 20 individual, that's a long time. If you're talking
21 Q. So that was before you took over; is that 21 about the history of the United States, it's a
22 accurate? 22 relatively short time. If you're talking about the
23 A. By about a year. 23 history of the Hopewell ceremonial culture, it's just
24 Q. Okay. But that's your understanding 24 a blip.
25 though? 25 Q. Just a blip, correct?
Page 496 Page 497
1 A. Yes. 1 that?
2 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: A moment, Your Honor? 2 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Well, I haven't asked
3 THE COURT: Sure. 3 any of those questions would be my response.
4 BY MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: 4 THE COURT: Okay. Well, if you do, that's
5 Q. Just a couple more questions. 5 the objection. So --
6 When you found out that the Weiler 6 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: I'm with you.
7 appraisal was for $1.75 million, didn't you think it 7 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
8 would be appropriate to rethink what your good faith 8 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: And I appreciate you
9 offer should be? 9 heading me off at the pass there. That's all I have.
10 MR. O'KORN: Asked and answered. 10 Thank you.
11 Objection. Asked and answered. I asked what was the 11 THE COURT: I have a question here. You
12 impact. 12 might want to object. What -- what -- what is a
13 THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer 13 leased fee value? Do you know what that term refers
14 that. 14 to?
15 A. Nowhere in the Weiler report did it ever 15 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm not an
16 give a leasehold value. And that's what we asked 16 appraiser. I do not know -- I do not know
17 for. 17 technically or legally what that refers to.
18 MR. O'KORN: Judge, if we're going to go 18 THE COURT: Okay. And your testimony is
19 down this line, I'm going to object to any questions 19 that you were made aware that your original
20 that point to, you know, why wasn't the Weiler 20 assumption about Weiler's appraisal -- you were made
21 appraisal then reoffered, why wasn't the Weiler 21 aware of that assumption being wrong by the Attorney
22 appraisal attached to a second notice because that's 22 General's office?
23 going to get into attorney-client, work product and 23 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
24 trial preparation material. 24 THE COURT: Are you aware of whether
25 THE COURT: Okay. What's your response to 25 Weiler specifically -- Well, I won't ask you that
3/19/2019 46 (498 - 501)
Page 498 Page 499
1 question because you don't know the answer. 1 our exhibits.
2 Redirect. 2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 MR. O'KORN: Can we take just one minute, 3 MS. CROSKEY: In summary, we would move
4 Judge? 4 Exhibits 1 through 17, 20, 22 through 28, 29 through
5 THE COURT: Sure. 5 36, 38 through 46.
6 MR. O'KORN: Be very quick. Judge, we 6 THE COURT: Is that it?
7 have no redirect. Thank you. 7 MS. CROSKEY: That is all.
8 THE COURT: Recross based on my questions? 8 THE COURT: Any objection to those
9 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: No, Your Honor. 9 exhibits?
10 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You may step 10 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Could we have a
11 down. Okay. Let's see. Where does that leave us? 11 second, Your Honor, to --
12 MS. CROSKEY: We have no further 12 THE COURT: Sure.
13 witnesses, and we want to move our exhibits prior 13 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Your Honor, may we
14 to -- 14 approach to talk about some scheduling issues?
15 THE COURT: You need a few minutes to get 15 THE COURT: Sure. Are you dealing with
16 those in order? 16 the exhibits still?
17 MS. CROSKEY: That would be great. 17 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Yeah. Just a couple
18 THE COURT: Let's take a recess. 18 more.
19 (Recess taken.) 19 (Discussion held off the record.)
20 THE COURT: Thank you. Have a seat. 20 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Crawford,
21 Ready? 21 exhibits? Do you have any objection to the exhibits
22 MS. CROSKEY: Yes, Your Honor. Jennifer 22 offered?
23 Croskey, Assistant Attorney General for Ohio History 23 MR. CRAWFORD: I just have one question.
24 Connection. We do not believe we have any more 24 I believe we had -- correct me. Mr. Gill testified
25 witnesses. We would like to move the admission of 25 about Exhibit 38, did he not? And that is --
Page 500 Page 501
1 MS. CROSKEY: Yes, he did. 1 notice of that. I believe those were admitted in the
2 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. My memory is fading 2 answer too; is that correct?
3 on me. As far as I can remember, though, there was 3 MR. CRAWFORD: I don't know the answer.
4 no discussion of Exhibits 30 and 31. On that 4 MS. CROSKEY: We did include it in our
5 basis -- as to what they mean, I don't think they 5 petition.
6 were referenced to anyone unless I missed something. 6 THE COURT: Paragraphs 73 to 74.
7 THE COURT: I don't think they were. 7 MS. CROSKEY: Yes. They were admitted.
8 MS. CROSKEY: The documents themselves 8 In our petition, Paragraph 73 talks about the House
9 were not referenced specifically. Dr. Lepper did 9 of Representatives resolution, and Paragraph 74 talks
10 talk about the process of the kids taking the issue 10 about the Senate resolution.
11 to the legislature. And I would say it's law. I 11 THE COURT: They're both admitted in the
12 mean, I guess we wouldn't really need to even make 12 defendant's answer.
13 them exhibits because it's just -- it's law. 13 MR. CRAWFORD: Okay. Withdraw the
14 MR. CRAWFORD: I thought they were just 14 objection.
15 resolutions, 30 and -- 15 THE COURT: Any other objections to any of
16 THE COURT: As adopted by the House, as 16 those exhibits?
17 adopted by the Senate. 17 MR. CRAWFORD: No, Your Honor.
18 MS. CROSKEY: So I guess they're not 18 THE COURT: All right. History
19 statutory law. But they're still law, and I think 19 Connection's Exhibits 1 through 17, 20, 22 through
20 Your Honor could take judicial notice of them. 20 28, 29 through 36 and 38 through 46 are admitted
21 THE COURT: Probably can. 21 without objection.
22 MR. CRAWFORD: Well, we still object on 22 ---
23 the basis there's no testimony, Your Honor. 23 And, thereupon, State's Exhibits Nos. 1
24 THE COURT: All right. Objection with 24 through 17, 20, 22 through 28, 29 through 36, and 38
25 regard to 30 and 31 is overruled. I'll take judicial 25 through 46 were received into evidence.
3/19/2019 47 (502 - 505)
Page 502 Page 503
1 --- 1 testimony:
2 THE COURT: You rest then, Ms. Croskey? 2 DAVID KRATOVILLE,
3 MS. CROSKEY: Yes. 3 called as a witness on behalf of the Defendant, being
4 --- 4 first duly sworn, testified as follows:
5 And, thereupon, the State rested. 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION
6 --- 6 BY MR. JOSHUA FRALEY:
7 THE COURT: All right. Is Mr. -- Who is 7 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kratoville. Before we
8 doing the first witness? 8 get started, what is your official title with the
9 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: The other Mr. Fraley. 9 Moundbuilders Country Club?
10 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fraley, first 10 A. President and board of trustees.
11 witness. 11 Q. And how long have you held that position?
12 MR. JOSHUA FRALEY: The defense calls 12 A. I'm in my second year.
13 David Kratoville. 13 Q. So before we get involved with your
14 (Witness sworn.) 14 involvement with the course itself, give me just a
15 THE BAILIFF: Please state your name, 15 quick background regarding your business background.
16 spell your last name and give your address, please. 16 A. I'm currently retired. Before that, I was
17 THE WITNESS: David Kratoville, 17 the chairman of the board and chief executive officer
18 K-R-A-T-O-V-I-L-L-E. 129 North Columbus Street, 18 for Comenity Capital Bank. And I was a member of the
19 Granville, Ohio, 43023. 19 executive committee and card services business
20 THE COURT: You may inquire. 20 division of Alliance Data Systems which is a Fortune
21 MR. JOSHUA FRALEY: Thank you, Your Honor. 21 500 Company.
22 --- 22 Q. And how long -- You said you're retired?
23 And, thereupon, the Defendant, to maintain 23 A. Closing in on four years.
24 the issues on its part to be maintained, offered and 24 Q. So since you've been retired, and you're
25 introduced in evidence on its behalf, the following 25 the current president of Moundbuilders, when did your
Page 504 Page 505
1 involvement with Moundbuilders begin? 1 in detail a little bit, like more active, what you
2 A. I joined the club in approximately 2008, 2 mean by that.
3 and I became a member of the board of trustees in -- 3 A. Sure. I attend weekly staff meetings. I
4 at some point in 2016. 4 often go over to do things like sign checks. I
5 Q. That was going to be my next question. 5 regularly engage with certain members of the
6 What was your first official role with Moundbuilders? 6 management team, in particular the finance manager
7 A. As a member of the board trustees. 7 and the head golf professional, the head of grounds
8 Q. And kind of go through the progression. 8 and spend time with them talking about challenges and
9 Any other changes between that role and your current 9 opportunities.
10 role? 10 Q. So as the club president, given what you
11 A. Yes. 11 just said, are you familiar and do you have knowledge
12 Q. Explain that for me. 12 of the financial aspects of the Moundbuilders Country
13 A. The board of trustees is a nine person 13 Club?
14 oversight body for the operation of the business. 14 A. I do.
15 And the president, which I was elected to in early 15 MR. JOSHUA FRALEY: Your Honor, may I
16 2018 and reelected earlier this year, basically 16 approach the witness?
17 oversees or manages the board. In addition to that, 17 THE COURT: Uh-huh.
18 I also take a more active role in operating the club 18 BY MR. JOSHUA FRALEY:
19 than a typical board president would do largely 19 Q. I'm going to hand you what has been marked
20 because of how we're running the business right now, 20 as Defendant's Exhibit D.
21 number one, and, number two, I have -- compared to 21 MR. JOSHUA FRALEY: Your Honor, this is
22 other board members, I have more time, since I'm 22 yours.
23 retired, to be able to do that. 23 BY MR. JOSHUA FRALEY:
24 Q. So you say you take on a more active role 24 Q. Under Tab 4, have you seen that document
25 than what typically would be for that position. Go 25 before?
3/19/2019 48 (506 - 509)
Page 506 Page 507
1 A. Yes. 1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Are you familiar with that document? 2 Q. And --
3 A. Yes. 3 A. When we're not operating activities like
4 Q. Explain what that document is. 4 the pool and the golf course.
5 A. This is the annual reviewed financials for 5 Q. Now, when you operate activities such as
6 Moundbuilders Country Club Company as prepared by 6 the pool and the golf course, what would be the
7 Wilson, Shannon & Snow. 7 employment for the country club during those -- that
8 Q. And is that an accurate copy of the 8 time period?
9 financial statement for Moundbuilders Country Club? 9 A. It would go up substantially.
10 A. Yes, it is. 10 Q. And substantially, do you have any -- like
11 Q. Now, in connection with the financial 11 a general number on how many?
12 statement, I'd like to talk to you a little bit about 12 A. Sure. If you look at the end of the year,
13 the employment at the Moundbuilders. Are you 13 typically we're issuing approximately 100 W-2 forms.
14 familiar with the employment aspect of the country 14 So essentially during the course of any given year,
15 club? 15 we're employing approximately 100 different people.
16 A. Yes, I am. 16 Q. Okay. And would you happen to know the
17 Q. Currently how many people are employed by 17 size of the payroll at the end of the year that
18 the Moundbuilders? 18 Moundbuilders operates under?
19 A. So currently I can't give you a figure. 19 A. Yes. It varies a little bit from year to
20 We vary a little bit seasonally. In the current 20 year. But on a round number or approximate basis, we
21 environment, we are probably employing, since this is 21 pay about $1 million a year in salaries --
22 the off season, somewhere in the relative range of 30 22 Q. Now, with those employees --
23 people. 23 A. -- and benefits.
24 Q. So seasonally, given it's a golf course, 24 Q. And benefits.
25 30 during -- This would be the winter season? 25 For those employees, give me an idea of
Page 508 Page 509
1 how many would be -- And let's talk during the summer 1 Q. And what would cause you to say that or
2 months you mentioned when it's busier. How 2 characterize it like that?
3 many -- Do you have any idea how many full-time 3 A. The first thing we look at is the reviewed
4 employees are employed there as opposed to part-time 4 financial statements that show a profit of $209,000
5 employees? 5 for fiscal year 2018.
6 A. Yeah. That would probably be 6 Q. Anything else jump out to you regarding
7 approximately 15 or so full time. And the reason I 7 the financials, or is it really just profit/loss?
8 word it that way is that your servers and your other 8 A. No. That's what I would key on.
9 folks that work at the business may be equivalent 9 Obviously, financials have a lot of different
10 full time, but their hours may vary depending on the 10 components and numbers. But I think at a high level,
11 season. So it would depend on what you wanted to 11 based on the question, that's how I would answer it.
12 call full or part time. If you looked at servers and 12 Q. So the current financial outlook of the
13 call them full time, you probably bump the number 13 company, as you mentioned, does the club have the
14 from 15 to 25 or potentially 30. 14 financial ability to continue operating the
15 Q. So depending on the time of year, they 15 clubhouse?
16 could be full time during the summer, during the 16 A. Yes, it does. And that would be borne out
17 busier months and then go down to part time during 17 in addition by my answer to the fact that we're -- we
18 the winter months? 18 started this conversation, reviewed financials. And
19 A. Yes. 19 on a reviewed financial basis, if the reviewer in
20 Q. How would you -- Moving on to the 20 this case, Wilson, Shannon & Snow, had any concerns,
21 employment and financial statement that you have 21 they would be noted in the financials.
22 before you. How would you characterize the financial 22 Q. Regarding the financial aspect of the
23 stability of the Moundbuilders Country Club? 23 company -- and I'd like for you to discuss the
24 A. The club is currently in good financial 24 financial economic impact that the country club has
25 standing. 25 to the local economy. Is it a positive impact?
3/19/2019 49 (510 - 513)
Page 510 Page 511
1 A. I believe it is. 1 financials, so you can just set that aside for now.
2 Q. Explain why. 2 I'd like to briefly touch base with you
3 A. I think we just touched on employment. So 3 regarding Moundbuilders' relationship with OHC or,
4 the business employs, during the course of the year, 4 previously, Ohio Historical Society.
5 100 employees, puts approximately $1 million worth of 5 Since you've been involved with
6 payroll back in the local economy through those 6 Moundbuilders, whether on the board or your current
7 employees. And in addition to them, the club also 7 role as president of Moundbuilders, how would you
8 spends approximately another $1 million on local 8 characterize the relationship between the two?
9 goods and services. So those are both markers of our 9 A. The -- At the time I joined the board, I
10 standing in the community from a business 10 really had no interaction with Ohio History
11 perspective. 11 Connection prior to becoming a board member. When I
12 Q. Regarding the goods and services that you 12 joined the board in 2016, there were still some
13 purchase from the local economy, is that something 13 communications, conversations taking place between
14 that's done on a yearly basis? Is that -- I guess I 14 the OHC and Moundbuilders. I was not a point person
15 should rephrase the question. 15 or directly involved in those communications with the
16 Is that a goal of Moundbuilders, is to 16 OHC, but was certainly aware of those.
17 purchase from local -- the local economy, 17 Since becoming the president of the board,
18 businesses -- 18 the primary interactions between the two
19 A. Sure. 19 organizations have really been what I would call more
20 Q. -- as a opposed to ordering from a 20 of an on-site level. So the Ohio History Connection
21 national chain? 21 people that are working and visiting our property are
22 A. We're a local membership business; and, 22 the ones that we're typically communicating with.
23 therefore, it behooves us to have our business 23 And I'll actually refine that. I'm typically not the
24 relationships primarily on a local basis. 24 person that has the communication with those people,
25 Q. All right. You're done with those 25 rather, that is typically John Mazzone.
Page 512 Page 513
1 Q. Have you had conversations with John 1 copies.
2 Mazzone regarding that contact with OHC? 2 BY MR. JOSHUA FRALEY:
3 A. Yes. 3 Q. I'm handing you what has been marked as
4 Q. And how would you characterize the overall 4 State's Exhibit 41, the historic site management
5 relationship between those -- with the site, I think 5 plan. And I've turned to the page for you for ease
6 you said, the people that are more involved with the 6 of access, Page 107. And I know it shows up a couple
7 site at OHC? 7 times throughout this site management plan. But this
8 A. Sure. 8 is one that I know was previously referenced. I'd
9 Q. How would you characterize that 9 like to just go through this with you. Do you
10 relationship? 10 recognize this document?
11 A. My characterization would be that John and 11 A. Yes, I do.
12 I agreed earlier on, as we both took more significant 12 Q. What is the document that you're looking
13 roles in operating the business, that the goal was to 13 at?
14 have cordial, business-like communications with 14 A. This document is basically the access
15 people from the Ohio History Connection; and to the 15 agreement between the Ohio History Connection and
16 best of my knowledge, that's what's been done in the 16 Moundbuilders.
17 past year and a half or two years. 17 Q. It kind of outlines the agreement that OHC
18 Q. All right. I would like to next talk with 18 had -- has with Moundbuilders regarding public
19 you -- similar to that is the -- this public access 19 access; would you agree?
20 of the park. And I'm going to hand to you -- Your 20 A. Correct.
21 Honor, may I approach? 21 Q. Now, right in the middle it says: Public
22 THE COURT: Sure. 22 visitation. And in the middle of that paragraph it
23 MR. JOSHUA FRALEY: Did you take guys take 23 says: Hours of access. And I'd like to just kind of
24 the exhibits that were up there? 24 go through this because it's been touched upon, but
25 MS. CROSKEY: Those are the witness 25 it hasn't really been discussed. So I'll just
3/19/2019 50 (514 - 517)
Page 514 Page 515
1 requote: Access to the observation platform and the 1 A. -- typically there is little or no golf on
2 safe trail will be during daylight hours year round. 2 Mondays without an outing because when the club is
3 A. Yes. 3 closed, most of us don't have access to our
4 Q. And that would be referring to the 4 equipment.
5 observation that is fully -- that is along the 5 Q. And then moving on, it says: The entire
6 outside of the mounds, which is 24/7 public access; 6 site to be open to visitors during daylight hours
7 would you agree? 7 when golfing is prohibited due to course conditions.
8 A. Yes. 8 Now, that section specifically, from --
9 Q. Next it says: The entire site to be open 9 let's say from November 1 to March 31, which is
10 during the daylight hours on Mondays from November 1 10 the -- when the Mondays -- are open all day on
11 to March 23 and on Monday mornings during the 11 Mondays. From that time period, how often is golf
12 remainder of the year except when golf outings are 12 performed?
13 scheduled. What would be the significance of Monday 13 A. It's -- The answer to that is that,
14 in relationship to the golf course? 14 obviously, it might vary based on conditions such as
15 A. Well, it's typically closed for business 15 weather. If you're looking for a general answer, it
16 on Mondays. 16 would likely be during that time period, golf would
17 Q. So there wouldn't be any golf going on 17 take place no more than two or three times in a given
18 typically? I know earlier there was testimony that 18 week at most, and at various times during that time
19 that's when they do the maintenance or the 19 frame might be considerably less.
20 pesticides, on Mondays. 20 Q. And so, obviously, November to March is
21 A. Yeah. I can't tell you as to what days of 21 when fall is kind of going out, winter is coming in.
22 the week the grounds crew is doing what types of 22 You don't see a lot of golf typically during that
23 work. That depends on weather and seasonality. But 23 period as opposed to when it's maybe a sunny day or
24 typically -- 24 something like that. Would you agree with that?
25 Q. I understand. 25 A. We don't typically see golf unless it is a
Page 516 Page 517
1 sunny day. 1 Q. Now, has there ever been a request from
2 Q. So essentially from November 1 to March 2 OHC or anybody else regarding additional education
3 31, hypothetically I guess -- or the club -- or the 3 that could be performed on this site such as
4 golf course would be open to the public under 4 additional tours, anything like that that's been
5 the -- the agreement right now; would you agree with 5 denied?
6 that statement? 6 A. Not that I'm aware of.
7 A. I apologize. Would you do me a favor and 7 Q. Has there ever been any request to put out
8 repeat that question. 8 literature on the property, additional signage around
9 Q. Yeah. No problem. Would you agree with 9 the mounds in addition to what's already there? Has
10 me that from November 1 to March 31 that a majority 10 there ever been any request for any of those at the
11 of that time period would be open to the public for 11 mounds by OHC or anybody else?
12 access since there would be no golf during that time 12 A. Not that I'm aware of.
13 period? 13 Q. Now, there's been discussion about a
14 A. I would say that I would agree that it is 14 museum/visitor center, and there's been some
15 likely for a majority of that time period that it 15 testimony about that being put in now. Has anybody
16 would be open to the public for access. 16 from OHC ever approached -- and, again, as you know
17 Q. Now, regarding public access, since you've 17 it, approached the club to discuss adding a museum?
18 been involved in the decision making with the board 18 A. Not that I'm aware of.
19 and the president -- in your role as president in 19 Q. If somebody had, would that be something
20 your conversations with Mr. Mazzone as you mentioned, 20 Moundbuilders would be agreeable to discuss with,
21 have there been any requests that you know of from 21 say, OHC?
22 OHC or an outside source for access that's been 22 A. We certainly would discuss it.
23 denied? And I just want you to testify to what you 23 Q. What happens if someone shows up to the
24 know. 24 property outside of the -- let's say the public
25 A. Not that I'm aware of. 25 access days, four open house days that are agreed
3/19/2019 51 (518 - 521)
Page 518 Page 519
1 upon, plus these other days we already discussed, 1 BY MR. JOSHUA FRALEY:
2 what happens when somebody randomly shows up? How 2 Q. I'm going to ask you to turn to -- and
3 does the club handle that? 3 I'll get it for you -- Exhibit 1, which are a group
4 A. There's no set and concrete rules for 4 of pictures.
5 handling that. Generally speaking, we do get a fair 5 MR. JOSHUA FRALEY: Under Tab 1, Your
6 amount of casual traffic that not only comes to the 6 Honor -- or Exhibit A I should say. I apologize.
7 periphery of the property and the -- in 7 A. Tab 1.
8 the -- all -- all -- all the time access points, we 8 Q. Tab 1. And I'll just ask you to flip
9 do get people that walk onto the property. It 9 through the pictures real quick to get a sense of the
10 depends on the level of play and whether or not those 10 pictures. Do you recognize these pictures?
11 people are putting themselves in danger, interfering 11 A. I do.
12 with member activities. Those are sort of, if you 12 Q. What are these pictures of? And you can
13 will, the common sense guidelines that end up often 13 kind of go through in order.
14 determining whether or not that person or those 14 A. You're looking at -- starts with a
15 people go about their business without any comment 15 charitable outing at Moundbuilders. It goes to an
16 from the club or members or whether there is a 16 Ohio State -- Women's Ohio State Golf Association
17 conversation. 17 event last year, an Ohio History Connection public
18 Q. How often would -- Would you get visitors 18 visitation day, another public visitation day where
19 that you know to the site that -- during one of these 19 visitors are utilizing carts that we've made
20 just regular days? 20 available, visitors on the next page taking advantage
21 A. I think it's random. There's no set 21 of free coffee that we put out with the cart in the
22 pattern. 22 background. And that's the sum of the pictures.
23 MR. JOSHUA FRALEY: Your Honor, may I 23 Q. All right. So I'm going to start with the
24 approach? 24 third -- Let's start with the third picture. And you
25 THE COURT: Sure. 25 said that is a picture of an outing or a tour at
Page 520 Page 521
1 Moundbuilders? 1 Moundbuilders?
2 A. Correct. 2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And is this something that -- and you can 3 Q. And why does Moundbuilders provide the
4 reference the other photos if you need to. Is this 4 golf cart for the tours?
5 something that Moundbuilders is generally involved 5 A. As a courtesy in support of the Ohio
6 in? 6 History Connection in case any of their visitors had
7 A. We are not generally involved in the 7 disabilities or limitations that might not allow them
8 outings. I can speak to the last, give or take, two 8 to view as much of the property as they would like
9 years where -- dovetailing to the earlier 9 to.
10 conversation that John Mazzone and I decided that I 10 Q. And going deeper into that regarding the
11 should have cordial interactions whenever possible 11 things that Moundbuilders have done, you can flip to
12 with Ohio History Connection. The third picture just 12 the fifth picture. And I believe you said when you
13 simply shows John Mazzone with visitors to the site. 13 first talked that that's a picture of Moundbuilders
14 Q. And John Mazzone is in that picture, you 14 having coffee, I think, set up for the visitors.
15 said? 15 That accommodation, is that something that
16 A. He is. He's the fifth person in from the 16 Moundbuilders regularly does for -- for some of these
17 left side. 17 guided tours since you've been --
18 Q. Now, you kind of mentioned cordial 18 A. Again, to the best of my knowledge, that
19 interaction with the OHC. And I'll ask you to flip 19 is something that's only been done in the last two
20 to the fourth picture. What is the fourth picture? 20 years give or take.
21 If you can describe it real quick. 21 Q. But it's a general practice of the club as
22 A. The fourth picture shows two people I do 22 we sit here today?
23 not know personally, but in a Moundbuilders golf 23 A. If it's not actually out there, it's at
24 cart. They are there on a public visitation day. 24 least offered, to the best of my knowledge. This
25 Q. So the golf cart is provided by 25 picture shows it being out there, being provided.
3/19/2019 52 (522 - 525)
Page 522 Page 523
1 Q. Okay. Next I'll ask you to turn to 1 Q. Now, you had said that you have visited
2 Exhibit 2, which are additional pictures that -- You 2 the Great Circle on multiple occasions. The pictures
3 can take a second to flip through those photos. Do 3 that you see, are those a general -- or a good
4 you recognize those photos? 4 description or good representation of what the Great
5 A. They are photos of the Great Circle Mound. 5 Circle looks like when you visit?
6 Q. And how do you know those are of the Great 6 A. Yes. And by the way, in answer to your
7 Circle Mound? 7 question -- I apologize -- the first picture is not a
8 A. And I apologize, counsel. The 8 picture that I took. Based on the vegetation, it
9 first -- I'm not counting them. The first -- All the 9 would be too early in the season. The second picture
10 pictures except for the last picture -- 10 that I'm looking at is a picture that I took. The
11 Q. Clarify. 11 third picture I did not. The fourth picture I did,
12 A. -- are pictures of the Great Circle Mound. 12 and the fifth picture I did not. So we've run
13 The last picture is a picture of Moundbuilders. 13 through all five. And then -- I apologize. What did
14 Q. Okay. So the first picture is related to 14 I not answer that you asked?
15 the Great Circle Mound? 15 Q. No. You're fine. You had mentioned that
16 A. Yes. 16 you've been to the Great Circle multiple times. The
17 Q. How do you recognize those photos? 17 photos that you're seeing, are those general
18 A. I've visited the Great Circle Mound on 18 representative photos of how the park looks when you
19 multiple occasions. 19 go visit the Great Circle?
20 Q. I was going to say: And you took those 20 A. The -- the pictures that I took which are
21 pictures? 21 when most of the foliage, if not all, is down, are
22 A. I may have. There have been a number of 22 certainly representative of what the park has looked
23 people from -- there have been multiple people 23 like in the last year. The other pictures when the
24 from -- affiliated with the club that have taken 24 growing season is in full swing are partially
25 pictures at the Great Circle Mound. 25 representative of what I'm used to seeing when I'm
Page 524 Page 525
1 there. And I must confess that I have been there at 1 A. Correct.
2 least once with my rotary club on a volunteer basis 2 Q. As board president and probably a more
3 of picking up litter to -- as a community service 3 involved board president than you would, for example,
4 project. 4 normally have?
5 Q. So that was one of the prior visits that 5 A. Correct.
6 you had indicated? 6 Q. So the country club had fourteen golf
7 A. Correct. 7 outings scheduled in 2019, right?
8 Q. And then just regarding the last photo 8 A. I believe -- And it would be -- we have
9 which you identified, is that a general 9 scheduled --
10 representative of how the club -- or how the mounds 10 Q. Yes.
11 are kept at the -- at Moundbuilders Country Club? 11 A. -- fourteen golf outings for 2019.
12 A. Yes. That's a good general 12 Q. And nine of those fourteen golf outings
13 representation. 13 are scheduled on Mondays, correct?
14 MR. JOSHUA FRALEY: Just -- I have no 14 A. I can't give you the answer to that
15 other questions right now, Your Honor. 15 without seeing the schedule.
16 THE COURT: Thank you. Cross. 16 Q. Okay.
17 --- 17 A. However, I would offer that typically all
18 CROSS-EXAMINATION 18 golf outings in years gone by were scheduled on
19 BY MS. CROSKEY: 19 Mondays, and we have made an effort to schedule them
20 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Kratoville. I think 20 on Thursdays as well as Mondays so there's some
21 we've met. I'm Jennifer Croskey, one of the 21 diversity in the calendar.
22 attorneys for History Connection. 22 MS. CROSKEY: Okay. If I could just talk
23 So I believe you said you're generally 23 with counsel for a minute.
24 familiar with some of the operations at the country 24 THE COURT: Sure.
25 club, correct? 25 MS. CROSKEY: We'll mark this exhibit as
3/19/2019 53 (526 - 529)
Page 526 Page 527
1 47. 1 Q. And for the month of August, all of the
2 --- 2 golf outings in 2019 are scheduled on Mondays?
3 And, thereupon, State's Exhibit No. 47 was 3 A. I apologize. Would you please repeat your
4 marked for purposes of identification. 4 question.
5 --- 5 Q. Sure. For the month of August 2019, all
6 MS. CROSKEY: May I approach? 6 of the golf outings are scheduled for Monday -- or
7 THE COURT: You may. 7 all of the Mondays do have scheduled golf outings?
8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 8 A. I apologize. All of the Mondays have golf
9 BY MS. CROSKEY: 9 outings?
10 Q. So, Mr. Kratoville, I've handed you a copy 10 Q. Yes. All of the Mondays in August 2019
11 of what we received in response to our discovery 11 have golf outings scheduled?
12 requests. It's a four-page document. It looks to me 12 A. Yes.
13 like golf outings for 2019, 2018, 2017 and 2016. You 13 Q. If you can turn to the second page, then,
14 can take a minute and let me know when you've had 14 which is golf outings for 2018. The country club had
15 enough time to look. 15 fifteen golf outings scheduled in 2018, correct?
16 A. I have. Thank you. 16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So you would agree with me that for 2019 17 Q. And ten of those fifteen were scheduled on
18 there are fourteen golf outings scheduled? 18 Mondays, correct?
19 A. Yes. I agree. 19 A. Nine were scheduled on Monday is my count,
20 Q. And nine of those fourteen golf outings 20 and then one is a multiple day.
21 are scheduled for Mondays? 21 Q. That includes a Monday?
22 A. Yes, I agree. 22 A. I don't know because it gives dates and
23 Q. And for the month of June 2019, all but 23 not days.
24 one is scheduled on a Monday? 24 Q. I would represent to you that July 22
25 A. Yes, I agree. 25 through July 26 of 2018 does include a Monday. And
Page 528 Page 529
1 I'd ask the Court to take judicial notice. 1 THE WITNESS: I'm a creature of my phone,
2 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: I don't have any 2 which you don't want me using in here.
3 objection. If she says so, I'm fine. 3 THE COURT: Thirty days in September.
4 THE COURT: You're willing to stipulate? 4 MS. CROSKEY: Yes.
5 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: I am, sir. 5 BY MS. CROSKEY:
6 THE COURT: Okay. 6 Q. If you could turn to Page 3 of what we
7 BY MS. CROSKEY: 7 have as Exhibit 47, a list of the 2017 golf outings.
8 Q. And for the month of June in 2018, all of 8 The country club had twelve golf outings scheduled in
9 the Mondays have scheduled golf outings? 9 2017; is that correct?
10 A. I apologize. For the month of June, I'm 10 A. Yes.
11 showing golf outings on Monday, the 4th, Monday, the 11 Q. And nine of those were scheduled on
12 11th, and Monday, the 25th. 12 Mondays? And I'll represent to you --
13 Q. I'm sorry. I misspoke. All but one. 13 A. Pardon my pause. We have the WOSGA golf
14 A. Yes. 14 tournament in July of '18. I do not believe we
15 Q. And likewise for August of 2018, all of 15 actually held that in July of '17. So in other
16 the Mondays have scheduled golf outings except for 16 words, I believe this calendar is correct except that
17 one? 17 it's showing the WOSGA tournament, which I don't
18 A. Yes. 18 believe was played --
19 Q. And for the month of September 2018, all 19 Q. In 2017?
20 of the Mondays have scheduled golf outings except for 20 A. -- in 2017.
21 one? 21 Q. So it would be your testimony today, then,
22 A. No. Would you be kind enough to tell me? 22 that eight out of the twelve golf outings in 2017
23 Are there 30 or 31 days in September? Well, thank 23 were scheduled on Mondays?
24 you. I don't -- based on that, yes. 24 A. That would be correct.
25 THE COURT: Is that right? 25 Q. And for the month of August 2017, all of
3/19/2019 54 (530 - 533)
Page 530 Page 531
1 the Mondays in that month had scheduled golf outings? 1 is no tournament showing for Monday, August 15. So
2 A. I apologize. For the month of August, I'm 2 I'm showing three Monday tournaments out of a
3 showing we had Monday, the 7th, Monday, the 21st, and 3 potential five in August. Do me a favor and look --
4 Monday, the 28th, which I don't believe is all the 4 Q. No. I will agree with you that August 1
5 Mondays. 5 would have been a Monday based on August 8 being a
6 Q. And I misspoke again. All but one. 6 Monday. I miscounted.
7 A. Okay. 7 A. Okay.
8 Q. If you could go to the last page of 8 MS. CROSKEY: If I could have a minute?
9 Exhibit 47. The golf outings for 2016, the country 9 THE COURT: Uh-huh.
10 club had thirteen golf outings scheduled in 2016; is 10 BY MS. CROSKEY:
11 that correct? 11 Q. Mr. Kratoville, you testified the
12 A. Yes. 12 financial statement, which was at Exhibit D -- I'll
13 Q. And ten of those thirteen were scheduled 13 wait until you have it.
14 on Mondays? 14 A. I'm happy to go there. Would you be kind
15 A. Yes. 15 enough to refresh my memory as to which tab?
16 Q. And for the month of June 2016, all of the 16 Q. Tab 4.
17 Mondays except for one -- fixed it this time -- had 17 A. Yes.
18 scheduled golf outings? 18 Q. Can you point me to a line in the
19 A. Yes. 19 financial statement that shows an expenditure for
20 Q. And likewise for the month of August 2016, 20 security?
21 all of the Mondays except for one had scheduled golf 21 THE COURT: What was the question?
22 outings? 22 MS. CROSKEY: Can he point me to a line in
23 A. I apologize. When I look at August, the 23 the financial statement that shows an expenditure for
24 first date is Monday, August 8, which would mean 24 security.
25 August 1 does not show a tournament, and then there 25 A. As a separate expenditure in the financial
Page 532 Page 533
1 statement? 1 Would you agree with me that typically on
2 Q. Is it included anywhere? 2 a Monday, as was expressed, the majority of these are
3 A. Any security that is -- Any expense for 3 on Mondays, that most of the outings start in the
4 security that is incurred would be in an expense 4 afternoon at, say, 1:00?
5 line, but not in a separate expense line. 5 A. I can't answer that. I don't have
6 Q. Can you tell me if there are any 6 specific knowledge as to the times that most
7 expenditures for security? 7 are -- most --
8 A. Yes. We have -- For example, we have a 8 Q. I'll just reference, say, the third one
9 security system, lights and alarms that is set up in 9 down, Newark Catholic varsity golf team. To the
10 the patio area for much of the year. 10 right it says 1:00 p.m.?
11 Q. Thank you. Regarding your multiple visits 11 A. I see what you're pointing to if I look at
12 to the Great Circle: So you were able to visit and 12 that. Your question was regarding Mondays?
13 take photographs there because it's open to the 13 Q. Just a majority of them, yeah. And it
14 public? 14 doesn't even have to be the Mondays. It could be
15 A. Yes. 15 Thursdays, if you know.
16 MS. CROSKEY: I don't have any other 16 A. It would appear, based on this, that the
17 questions. 17 majority of the Mondays are a 1:00 start or later if
18 THE COURT: Redirect. 18 it's a school day.
19 MR. JOSHUA FRALEY: Thank you, Your Honor. 19 Q. And with a 1:00 start, that still leaves
20 --- 20 the property open to the public for the morning
21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 21 hours; would you agree with that?
22 BY MR. JOSHUA FRALEY: 22 A. Based on that start time, yes.
23 Q. I will refer you back to Exhibit 47. I'll 23 Q. Now, reviewing these -- this list of
24 give you a second to get that back out. That is the 24 outings -- now a majority of the outings at
25 list of the golf outings. 25 Moundbuilders are for charity outings or, say, the
3/19/2019 55 (534 - 537)
Page 534 Page 535
1 local youth association such as the -- U.S. Kids Golf 1 A. You're --
2 I see on here and Newark Catholic varsity golf team. 2 Q. Additional security I should say.
3 Would you agree with that? 3 A. Your -- Yes. Typically in -- in
4 A. I would say that there are certainly a 4 particularly in peak season, we probably have people
5 large number of the tournaments that take place that 5 that are on the property from approximately 6:00 in
6 are affiliated with either charitable outings or 6 the morning until probably 11:00 in the evening.
7 local school golf events. 7 Q. And you don't employ specific security
8 Q. And, say, in addition to those, it 8 guards that roam the --
9 benefits other local organizations? Say, Monday 9 A. We do not.
10 August 19, Licking County Historical Society, they 10 Q. Even without specific security guards or
11 have an outing at Moundbuilders? 11 security measures such as that, you would agree that
12 A. Yes, they do. 12 there's very little security concern at that
13 Q. And if you just flip through 2018, 2017, 13 property?
14 2016, generally do you have the outings for the same 14 A. Generally speaking, no.
15 organizations, the charity, youth and then even the 15 Q. Do you recall any specific security
16 Licking County Historical Society? 16 incidents that may have happened at Moundbuilders
17 A. Yes. A number of the outings every year 17 since you've been involved in your role with the
18 are outings that we typically host on an annual 18 club?
19 basis. 19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, you touched base on the security 20 Q. And what would that be?
21 issue. I don't need you to pull the financial 21 A. We had a cushion solen from out on the
22 statement back out. 22 patio last year at some point during the summer.
23 Because the grounds crews are there from 23 Q. Is that the extent of the security concern
24 dusk till dawn throughout the summer months, there's 24 that you have at the clubhouse?
25 not much need for security, is there? 25 A. No. We had one other incident where we
Page 536 Page 537
1 had somebody break a window on the second floor of 1 Q. Okay. Fair enough. And for 2018, five of
2 the clubhouse. 2 the ten were scheduled for the morning?
3 Q. Okay. But no, like, security with the 3 A. And just to make sure I'm answering
4 actual grounds of the property? 4 correctly, can you repeat the question.
5 A. Not that I'm aware of. 5 Q. Five of the ten golf outings that were
6 MR. JOSHUA FRALEY: I have no other 6 scheduled on Mondays in 2018 --
7 questions, Your Honor. 7 A. Yes.
8 THE COURT: Recross. 8 Q. -- were scheduled in the morning hour?
9 MS. CROSKEY: Thank you. 9 A. I agree with that.
10 --- 10 Q. For the sake of time, I'll just say that
11 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 11 for 2017 and '16, the document speaks for itself.
12 BY MS. CROSKEY: 12 THE COURT: Is there any security
13 Q. So looking back at Exhibit 47, would you 13 perimeter around the grounds, like a fence or
14 agree with me that six of the nine golf outings that 14 something?
15 are scheduled for Mondays are actually scheduled for 15 THE WITNESS: Judge, there's a fence if
16 the morning? 16 you drive down 30th street, but I don't know that I
17 THE COURT: Are you talking about 2019? 17 would call that security fencing. The fencing that
18 MS. CROSKEY: 2019, correct. 18 is -- that would typically be, in my opinion, called
19 A. So good catch on your part. Some of the 19 security fencing is primarily around the clubhouse
20 times are not on the end; but when I read this, I see 20 where we take supplies in on one side of the
21 five. And the reason I say five is Monday, August 25 21 building, completely around the pool because of the
22 does not give a definitive time frame. It simply 22 pool itself. And that would be the preponderance of
23 says: A.m. shotgun with two question marks, which 23 anything that we have.
24 doesn't allow me to know whether that was morning or 24 THE COURT: Is there security lighting
25 afternoon golf. 25 around the perimeter of the grounds, anything like
3/19/2019 56 (538 - 539)
Page 538 Page 539
1 that? 1 ---
2 THE WITNESS: There would be lighting -- 2 And, thereupon, the hearing was adjourned
3 there would be lighting around, typically, the 3 at 3:52 p.m.
4 parking lot, the clubhouse, the maintenance building. 4 ---
5 And then there would be -- they wouldn't be our 5
6 lighting, but there would be lighting that would be 6
7 on the back side of the golf course along 10 because 7
8 you've got the hospital and doctors' offices that 8
9 abut the property. 9
10 THE COURT: Okay. Follow-up based on my 10
11 questions? 11
12 MR. JOSHUA FRALEY: No, Your Honor. 12
13 THE COURT: Ms. Croskey? 13
14 MS. CROSKEY: No, Your Honor. 14
15 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Sir, you 15
16 may step down. 16
17 MR. JOSEPH FRALEY: Your Honor, that's our 17
18 last witness for today if that's appropriate. 18
19 THE COURT: Sure. Let's -- What's my 19
20 schedule for tomorrow? 20
21 (Discussion held off the record.) 21
22 THE COURT: How about we shoot to be ready 22
23 to go at, say, 9:15? 23
24 MR. CRAWFORD: That should work fine, Your 24
25 Honor. 25

3/19/2019 57 (540)
4 C-E-R-T-I-F-I-C-A-T-E
5
6 I do hereby certify that the foregoing is

7 a true, correct and complete written transcript of
8 the proceedings in this matter, taken by me on the
9 19th day of March, 2019, and transcribed from my
10 stenographic notes.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

3/19/2019 1
WORD INDEX 447:16 17 463:1 1986 348:21
484:18, 23 537:11 449:23, 24 449:13
< $ > 1.75 160 418:1 1990s 2006
$1 507:21 483:11 16062 414:9 358:15
510:5, 8 1:00 402:2 1992 436:4 383:19
$1.75 533:4, 10, 17 336:7 1995 384:1
447:3 17, 19 349:3 449:24, 25 385:3
496:7 10 375:3 454:3, 3 451:1 2007
$209,000 397:7 499:4 459:17 358:15
509:4 477:5, 6 501:19, 24 1998 372:17, 24
$500,000 538:7 529:15 382:11 373:1
442:17, 19 100 418:5 175 339:19 19th 2008
443:8 459:1 17-minute 330:2 358:17
445:11 507:13, 15 408:5 396:9 359:15
481:21 510:5 17th 453:4 419:6, 21 494:17
$800,000 104 402:2 18 371:25 426:12 504:2
481:20 107 513:6 421:1 540:9 2009
11 475:13, 444:19 19-year 336:13
< 0 > 16 476:22, 476:25 352:11, 23 348:21
001284 23 483:23 355:14
327:7 1-1,000 486:8 < 2 > 436:7
05 349:5 400:16 529:14 2 446:23 437:24
08 468:15 11:00 180 418:1 472:15, 17 450:1, 3
09 349:5 535:6 1812 473:9 459:11
460:14 110 451:17 491:20 460:20
468:14 398:17, 19 1849 522:2 463:16
11th 328:20 2,000 465:23
< 1 > 528:12 1885 465:8 468:10
1 352:1 12 359:24 452:16 467:13 2010
389:3 386:17 463:2 2,200 463:23
472:16, 22, 439:19, 23 1891 466:6 465:23
22 473:3 441:14, 17 419:25 2,250,000 467:1
487:25 442:22 19 327:16 446:18 468:10
489:5 455:4 487:24 2,500 2011
499:4 125 431:4 489:3 411:24 353:9, 10,
501:19, 23 129 502:18 534:10 20 391:10 14 467:1
514:10 13 386:10, 1920 408:2 465:24 469:10
515:9 20 387:16 1921 408:2 499:4 2012 495:5
516:2, 10 388:2 1923 501:19, 24 2013
519:3, 5, 455:5 435:25 200 360:10, 18
7, 8 456:23 1939 418:15 375:17
530:25 476:8 466:23, 25 421:14 377:11
531:4 130 426:9 1948 2000 413:8 385:24
1,090 1421 352:8, 10 2002 468:14, 19
338:21 327:24 1950s 333:10, 16 469:13
1,731 15 437:24 415:1 335:17 470:1
391:24 508:7, 14 1976 449:7 2003 475:17
1,750,000 531:1 1980 436:2 352:10 495:5
446:20 16 428:6 1983 2005
462:9, 9, 449:10, 23 336:12

3/19/2019 2
2014 25 528:8, 446:6 30 328:4 36 328:15
353:21 15, 19 471:20, 23 332:2 478:9
460:5 534:13 473:25 348:25 499:5
2015 537:1, 6 477:9 349:2 501:20, 24
353:23 2019 483:13 392:10 365-day-a-ye
361:18, 19 327:16 508:14 417:14 ar 397:2
365:11 330:3 536:21 430:17, 21 377 329:6
377:11 444:20 25th 451:17 38 481:10
378:14 445:18 528:12 454:21 499:5, 25
385:10, 17, 446:6 26 340:17 465:24 501:20, 24
19 413:8 460:15 341:3, 19, 478:18 39 354:14
469:15 525:7, 11 20 367:17, 481:9
470:16 526:13, 17, 17 368:9 500:4, 15, < 4 >
473:14 23 527:2, 374:6 25 506:22, 4 419:14,
476:17 5, 10 380:17 25 508:14 18 420:18
2016 536:17, 18 386:9 528:23 422:7
413:21 540:9 395:11 30,000 505:24
462:15 202 328:21 400:15 413:9 531:16
504:4 2022 458:5 428:6 300 328:10 40 393:24
511:12 20240 446:24 300,000 394:1, 5
526:13 328:21 473:19, 22, 447:12 398:5
530:9, 10, 208-3100 22, 25 452:8 465:24
16, 20 328:21 527:25 30th 474:5, 6,
534:14 20th 396:9 26th 328:4 537:16 6, 8, 24
2017 21 336:1 27 469:20, 31 500:4, 479:21
389:6 389:21 21 470:8 25 515:9 40,000
441:6 21-member 28 362:9, 516:3, 10 358:7
526:13 389:12, 17, 12 376:14, 528:23 413:9
529:7, 9, 20 390:3 15 438:19 32 403:11 400 420:5
19, 20, 22, 21st 530:3 441:22 404:16 402 329:6
25 534:13 22 473:14 470:9, 13 326-0177 41 513:4
537:11 499:4 476:19 327:25 42 457:3
2018 501:19, 24 485:16 33 395:17, 429 329:9
327:7 527:24 499:4 25 425:13 43 359:4,
371:25 224-4114 501:20, 24 455:12, 18 6, 11
389:3, 6 328:11 28th 530:4 331 329:5 43023
438:19 23 338:24 29 339:9, 34 373:23 502:19
441:23 471:18 18 340:18 374:5, 6 43055
443:22 514:11 341:21 380:22 327:18
446:24 24 365:22, 476:16 416:7 43058
447:4 24 429:17 499:4 340,000 328:16
454:4, 20 462:17 501:20, 24 452:10 43212
469:15 463:1 345-3431 327:24
476:25 471:1, 2, < 3 > 328:16 43215
477:9 6 514:6 3 446:9 35 349:2 328:5, 11
483:14 2409 437:9 472:12 392:10 434 329:10
504:16 25 340:17 529:6 423:16 437 329:13
509:5 341:1 3,500 35-page 44 369:4,
526:13 397:8 411:21, 23 462:10 4, 4
527:14, 15, 445:18 3:52 539:3 371:15

3/19/2019 3
397:22 17 485:15 426:24 accolades
400:15, 20, < 6 > 487:2, 6 434:14, 20 451:18
21 439:1, 6 341:7, 80-year 438:13 accommodate
6, 10 10 387:25 465:17 434:12
45 369:8 6.1 374:6 85 371:21 467:22 accommodatio
443:17, 21 380:24 372:7 479:11 n 521:15
444:9 6:00 535:5 86 372:5 abuse accompanied
46 369:9 60 442:23 369:22 427:13
371:16 479:8, 8 < 9 > 372:15, 16,
373:23 480:4 9:06 25 accompanying
444:25 492:15 327:16 abut 538:9 458:11
445:4 495:12, 17 9:15 academic accreditatio
483:17 60,000 538:23 424:23 n 450:5, 8
499:5 413:11 995-0663 Academy accredited
501:20, 25 434:9 328:5 449:6 335:24
47 526:1, 614 acceptable accrediting
3 529:7 327:25 < A > 382:8 450:7
530:9 328:5, 11 a.m 400:7 accurate
532:23 327:16 acceptance 376:16
536:13 < 7 > 536:23 468:23 404:17
480 329:14 7 429:17 ability accepted 429:11
4th 528:11 514:6 427:15 382:22 430:13
708 330:24 509:14 393:7, 10, 431:16
< 5 > 73 478:9 able 14 440:20
5 473:8 501:6, 8 339:13 access 444:14
5.3 395:18 74 501:6, 356:19, 22 396:24 445:19
50 479:21 9 366:2 397:2 455:1
500 442:9 740 328:16 371:12 407:6, 14 472:8
484:22 75 349:16 445:25 429:11, 14, 481:9, 21
503:21 77 340:18 458:25 18 430:11, 483:21, 25
500,000 79 341:20 493:13 12 457:20, 485:13
442:3 795,000 504:23 24 464:17, 486:13, 18
445:8 443:5 532:12 20, 22 492:6, 11
446:18 7th 530:3 aboard 465:4, 13 494:8, 11,
447:11 462:1 492:5, 22 22 495:18
482:25 < 8 > 493:7, 23 506:8
483:7 8 530:24 abolitionist 512:19 accusation
484:13 531:5 466:5 513:6, 14, 448:3, 23
485:15 80 436:1 abroad 19, 23 achieved
487:5 80,000 412:14 514:1, 6 381:11
503 329:14 452:7 absolute 515:3 382:4, 13
51 373:10 800 442:9 461:15 516:12, 16, 387:19
457:4 453:4 absolutely 17, 22 achieving
524 329:18 484:22, 23 337:8 517:25 381:4
532 329:19 800,000 351:1 518:8 acquire
536 329:20 442:3, 5, 357:11 accessibilit 436:2, 4
580 328:10 7 443:2, 409:4 y 406:14, 464:25
59 452:25 6 447:12, 412:17 21 478:2
456:23 16 483:6 415:14 accessible 486:22
484:13, 15, 422:3 457:21

3/19/2019 4
acquired 456:5 adopted 354:24 533:1, 21
458:3 504:17 372:1, 14 376:25 534:3
466:22, 23 509:17 375:1 471:8 535:11
acrawford@re 510:7 500:16, 17 affiliated 536:14
esepyle.com 517:9 adopting 522:24 537:9
328:17 534:8 372:20 534:6 agreeable
acre additional adrift 517:20
417:12 336:2 451:3 affiliations agreed
acres 350:2 advance 404:2 382:3
417:14 357:5 352:4 afternoon 386:3
418:1, 5 436:3 advanced 437:17 399:19
426:9 479:9 341:8 481:2 512:12
428:6 517:2, 4, 503:7 517:25
430:17, 21 8 522:2 advancements 524:20 agreement
431:4 535:2 405:11 533:4 351:15
436:1 address advances 536:25 383:6, 9
Acropolis 330:21, 24 415:2 Age 456:3 388:12
356:22 382:6 advantage Agencies 399:4
acting 388:19 448:7 328:4 513:15, 17
334:4 401:25 519:20 334:14 516:5
action 402:2 advice 344:3 agreements
485:1, 5 437:6 387:11 390:8 334:14
active 453:3 advise agency 457:2
449:19 466:1 365:18 334:24
504:18, 24 502:16 368:14 agenda agricultural
505:1 addressed advisory 347:16 418:15
activities 386:4 344:3 ago 368:6 ahead
465:10, 10 396:7, 13 345:7 418:11 373:20
466:15 addresses 346:11, 15, 460:7 411:7
507:3, 5 382:14 18, 24 465:8 463:22
518:12 adjourned 347:6, 19, 467:8, 13 466:20
activity 539:2 21 348:23 479:18 469:23
413:22 adjustments 365:11, 13 486:20 488:21
414:20 348:6 366:7, 16, 491:25 490:6
428:9, 15 Administrati 16 379:11 agree 491:13
454:23 on 352:9 387:8 373:11 493:10
470:6 admission 469:14 383:7 497:7
474:3 498:25 470:2, 2 384:10, 12 aim 336:25
477:3 admissions 471:10 401:13 al 327:8
actual 468:24 472:6, 6 430:9 alarms
536:4 admit 474:17 431:6, 25 532:9
add 350:22 370:13 aerial 432:22 ALBERT
added admits 417:20 495:14 329:12
350:3 372:6 Affairs 513:19 437:8, 12
adding admitted 331:24 514:7 alive
517:17 370:3, 19 332:19 515:24 464:23
Addition 372:4 333:11, 19 516:5, 9, allegations
351:2 468:24 334:8 14 526:17, 372:6
387:20 501:1, 7, 340:14 19, 22, 25
395:2 11, 20 350:20 531:4

3/19/2019 5
Alliance Angeles answers appraisers
450:6 449:12 373:25 applications 440:25
503:20 announced 390:17 441:4
allow 352:3 anthropology 392:19 appreciate
362:1 389:2, 5 402:16, 18 393:4 497:8
465:4 Antonio appoint approach
521:7 announcement 353:24, 24 472:18 339:10
536:24 397:11, 14, 355:19 appointment 354:16
allows 17 anybody 458:6 358:25
334:17 announcing 517:2, 11, appraisal 365:25
ambassador 375:7 15 438:1, 2 367:13
390:6 annual anyway 439:11 381:9, 15,
amended 347:15 490:19 440:11, 17 16 415:22
372:17 392:15 apart 441:15, 24, 438:23
373:1 454:4, 7, 481:9 25 442:8, 443:13, 14
America 11, 14, 18 485:13 11, 21 444:22
398:9 455:5 apologize 443:23 488:16, 23
408:8 506:5 395:12 444:1, 5 490:20
409:8 534:18 516:7 447:18, 25 491:10
418:3 annually 519:6 448:1, 22 499:14
473:1 335:15 522:8 481:7, 20, 505:16
American 392:14 523:7, 13 21 482:21, 512:21
333:5 434:9 527:3, 8 22, 23 518:24
404:8 anomalies 528:10 483:11, 21 526:6
420:6 421:4 530:2, 23 484:25 approached
423:22 424:5, 8 app 347:8 485:4, 7, 495:3, 10
425:19 answer apparent 9, 18, 22, 517:16, 17
450:6 354:25 468:20 23 486:21, approaching
amount 370:19, 21 apparently 25 487:1, 490:23
348:16 372:5, 5 421:19 2, 4, 7 appropriate
377:5 379:3 appealing 496:7, 21, 372:2
387:23 390:13 452:1 22 497:20 400:2, 5
486:25 449:2 appear appraisals 476:24
518:6 488:10 533:16 438:21, 22 496:8
analogous 489:6, 9, APPEARANCES 439:7, 8, 538:18
467:2 23, 25 328:1 13, 14 approval
analyze 493:9 appearing 440:14, 21, 387:3
335:3 494:1, 3, 330:5 24 442:1 450:8
340:5 13 496:13 appears 448:20 approve
analyzing 498:1 493:20, 21 481:18 407:1
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3/19/2019 6
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3/19/2019 7
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3/19/2019 8
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3/19/2019 9
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3/19/2019 10
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3/19/2019 11
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3/19/2019 12
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3/19/2019 13
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3/19/2019 14
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3/19/2019 15
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3/19/2019 22
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19 529:25 362:11 485:5 451:12 437:5, 6,
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16, 20 366:5 489:8 473:24 16 502:15,
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18 534:24 477:21 13, 18 409:5 3, 8

3/19/2019 34
334:5, 19, 452:21 neither 354:10 396:13
22, 24 456:1 448:22 477:18 397:11, 15
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356:15 357:6 448:14 378:11 20 478:4
361:22 near new 392:7, 9 nominations
387:16 365:23 348:12 nominating 335:9
391:13 403:3 391:15 341:9 345:10
402:4 nearby 405:2 363:5 347:17
405:15, 16, 436:3 406:3 nomination 353:11
18 406:8 necessarily 414:23 335:4 377:6
407:1 382:8 415:20 340:6 389:18
408:12 435:1 421:9 342:4, 7, 392:11, 16
409:22 necessary 426:11, 14, 16 343:21 nominee
413:15, 21 369:20 15 428:2 344:7, 8, 383:22
414:4 410:24 449:9 11, 13, 16, nonprofit
415:12 453:18 460:9, 11, 18, 21, 22, 452:15
417:3 necessity 23, 23, 24 23, 25 Nonresponsiv
432:17 372:1 461:23 345:16 e 423:12
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24 435:4, 414:19 Newark 12, 17 328:15
5, 14, 16, 424:11 327:18 349:12 398:8
18, 20, 21, 464:22 328:16 354:3 408:8
25 451:15 490:22 396:8 355:7, 10, 409:8
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469:10, 11 500:12 457:15, 17 358:11, 22 Northeast
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natural 387:20 461:25 7 378:19 470:5
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16 343:2, 488:8 526:20 382:4, 13, notice
6, 14 527:19 15, 22 350:4
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451:8 455:20 352:14 393:4, 12 441:20, 25

3/19/2019 35
443:23 338:12 obscuring 465:1 452:23
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483:24 < O > observation 467:12, 14 469:7, 8
485:20 Oberlin 514:1, 5 479:23 471:8
486:22 332:8 observer October 482:25
487:8 object 336:6, 14 371:25 483:13
493:14, 19 370:11 349:6 476:25 486:15
496:22 410:14 observing offer 497:22
500:20 496:19 331:8 407:3 officer
501:1 497:12 336:10 441:21 333:15, 20
528:1 500:22 obsidian 442:5 437:22
noticed objected 409:17 452:19 449:18
344:11 438:4 485:7, 9, 450:16
433:8 Objection obstructions 10, 19 465:14
notices 361:13, 25 430:22 486:22 503:17
344:9 369:16 431:11 487:9 offices
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351:24 383:1, 11 obviously 525:17 335:23
notion 390:10, 19 417:11 offered 374:20
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November 399:10, 15, 509:9 371:5 469:14
460:20 24 411:6 515:14, 20 489:18 471:10
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number 466:9 occasionally offering 334:21
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507:11, 20 528:3 475:12 335:10, 17 16, 21
508:13 objections Octagon 340:10, 14 520:19
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534:5, 17 objects 364:2, 17 350:20 386:1
numbers 458:21 365:6, 9 354:23 OHIO
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509:10 obscured 457:15, 18 371:2 338:25
nutshell 422:19 458:8, 10 376:24 342:14
464:12 445:6 358:24

3/19/2019 36
362:17 17 520:12 9 431:1 366:2, 4 344:10
363:4 521:5 432:4, 14, 367:13, 15 346:6
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367:22 460:4 24 434:2, 370:5, 8, 350:24
370:17 461:14 16 435:19 15, 18, 23 453:12
371:24 Ohioans 457:7 371:12, 14, 524:2
376:1, 12 453:1 473:10 20, 24 ones
378:14, 22 459:6, 6 475:15 372:8 335:8
379:21 460:11 481:11, 18 373:18, 21, 339:4
385:6, 21 461:12, 19 482:2, 19 24 374:4 357:5, 12
394:2 462:6 483:3, 8 377:14 511:22
398:6 464:6, 8, 484:11, 16, 383:1, 11 on-site
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404:10 Ohio's 487:10, 24 9 390:10, open
405:5 465:8 488:12, 17 19 394:3 407:7
406:10, 12 Okay 490:5, 8, 399:10, 24 458:5, 6
408:7 336:15 20 491:6, 401:5, 7, 464:8, 10
410:22 337:13 19 492:2, 13 436:17, 514:9
412:13 342:19 8 493:12 25 437:1, 515:6, 10
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438:16 345:6 495:2 438:8, 11, 16 517:25
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448:10 356:1, 19 497:4, 18 439:4 533:20
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9, 17 383:16 522:1, 14 466:12 432:19, 19
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15, 17, 19 20, 23 528:6 474:14, 19, 23 507:5
460:5, 10 399:17 530:7 22 478:18, operated
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472:4 404:16 O'KORN 489:15 operating
473:7 406:8 328:2 490:22 504:18
474:17 408:17 329:5, 13 492:24 507:3
475:4, 7, 410:4 330:10, 12, 493:16, 21 509:14
21 477:11, 411:12, 16 13 331:2, 496:10, 18 512:13
16 478:9 414:3 16 339:10, 498:3, 6 operation
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513:15 429:13, 17, 362:2 Once 453:21
519:16, 16, 22 430:5, 365:25 343:21 524:24

3/19/2019 37
opinion 451:3 16, 20 overruled PAGE
377:11 452:15 529:7, 8, 361:25 329:3
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opportunitie 459:15, 17, 9, 10, 18, 383:2 21 350:19,
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opportunity 464:1 17, 18 496:13 364:10
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order 455:1 452:23, 24 455:8, 12 440:1, 8
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outings 348:15 350:23 530:8
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450:18 528:9, 11, 512:4

3/19/2019 38
Panel 408:6, 12 374:19 402:20 370:16, 20
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345:18 25 411:2, 390:2 408:24 pathways
Papahanaumok 15, 25 399:21 412:10 425:1, 11
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355:16 413:5, 15, 417:24 417:5 532:10
paper 21 414:4, 425:10 422:22, 25 535:22
452:20 7, 9, 10 426:8 430:25 pattern
paragraph 415:12 429:19 454:18 518:22
363:22 416:4, 12, 435:14, 15, 471:12 pause
364:9, 20 20 417:3 17 460:4 473:3 529:13
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372:5, 7 426:2, 3 462:2, 13 505:6 paying
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381:2 428:1 473:6 Particularly 459:6
386:21, 22 434:9, 11, 478:9 338:1 payroll
387:15 18, 19, 24 479:24 411:19 507:17
388:3 435:4, 5, 488:5, 6, 535:4 510:6
472:16, 22 10, 14, 16, 8 502:24 parties peak
473:3 18, 20, 21 508:12, 17 330:5 412:24
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501:8, 9 467:21, 25 partially 342:6 535:4
513:22 470:19 523:24 389:21 Peebles
Paragraphs 471:12 391:18, 24 456:7
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parcels 512:20 361:10 452:14 403:25
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529:13 407:19 424:25 partners penetrating
parentheses 417:23 456:24 423:8
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331:22 334:12, 12, 404:24 parts people
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333:8 362:16 508:4 378:21
334:5, 13, 425:8, 9 participates party 380:19
17, 22 432:11, 17 340:2 389:24 407:1
336:23, 25 433:1, 4, participatin 392:8 409:5
343:15, 15 5 470:16 g 354:8 471:15 412:19
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356:16 335:1, 23 n 340:3 473:5, 14 421:7
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407:1 366:15 367:18, 20 369:21 7, 8

3/19/2019 39
462:5, 6 permission piece Planning
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535:4 330:5 photograph 456:8 388:14
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percent 455:14 photos 357:16 327:1
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percentage 520:16 5, 17 511:13 473:8
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periphery Phi 404:4 25 523:2, 338:8 379:11, 13
518:7 20, 23 349:25 383:25

3/19/2019 40
385:3 population posts prepared 458:16
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3/19/2019 41
511:4 500:21 477:17, 19, programs 361:20
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470:23 469:4, 6 22 359:25 450:19

3/19/2019 42
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3/19/2019 43
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3/19/2019 44
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3/19/2019 45
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3/19/2019 46
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3/19/2019 47
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23 421:3 7, 11, 17 470:19

3/19/2019 48
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3/19/2019 49
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3/19/2019 50
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3/19/2019 51
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3/19/2019 52
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3/19/2019 53
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3/19/2019 54
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3/19/2019 55
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3/19/2019 57
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3/19/2019 58
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3/19/2019 59
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3/19/2019 60
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Ohio History Connection v. The Moundbuilders Club

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Proceedings, Vol.

1 THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS

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6 I do hereby certify that the foregoing is

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