S&S Quarterly, Inc.

Guilford Press

Two Neglected Interviews with Karl Marx

Author(s): Karl Marx, Philip S. Foner and R. Landor
Source: Science & Society, Vol. 36, No. 1 (Spring, 1972), pp. 3-28
Published by: Guilford Press
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/40401612 .
Accessed: 20/06/2014 02:45

Your use of the JSTOR archive indicates your acceptance of the Terms & Conditions of Use, available at .
http://www.jstor.org/page/info/about/policies/terms.jsp

.
JSTOR is a not-for-profit service that helps scholars, researchers, and students discover, use, and build upon a wide range of
content in a trusted digital archive. We use information technology and tools to increase productivity and facilitate new forms
of scholarship. For more information about JSTOR, please contact support@jstor.org.

S&S Quarterly, Inc. and Guilford Press are collaborating with JSTOR to digitize, preserve and extend access to
Science &Society.

http://www.jstor.org

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
 TWO NEGLECTED INTERVIEWS
WITH KARL MARX
PHILIP S. FONER

DURING THE 1870sthe Americanpressfeatured

interviewswithKarl Marx.The firstwas publishedin the
NewYorkWorldofJuly18,1871and thesecondin theChi-
cago TribuneofJanuary 5, 1879.The New YorkWorldinterview
was reprintedin Woodhull& Claflin'sWeekly(New York) on
August12,1871,and hasneversincebeenreprinted in English.Ex-
cerpts from theChicago Tribune appearedin The Social-
interview
organoftheSocialistLaborPartyin itsissue
ist,an English-language
ofJanuary11, 1879,and a completeGermantranslation appeared
in theNew YorkerVolkszeitung ofJanuary 10, 1879,withexcerpts
(also in German)in Vorbote(Chicago)of January11, 1879.It ap-
pearedagainin Germanin theArchivfürSozialgeschichte (Han-
nover),Band 5, 1965,withnotesby BertAndreas,underthe title,
"Marxüberdie SPD, Bismarck und das Sozialis and in
ten-gesetz,"
Englishin the WeeklyPeople (New York)December23 and 30,
1967,withnotesby Louis Lazarus.Mr. Lazarushad furnished the
textoftheinterview to theArchivin Hannover.
Karl Marx,of course,was no strangerto Americans whenthe
interviews werefirstpublished.Between1851 and 1862,he had
servedas one of theforeigncorrespondentsof theNew YorkTrib-
une,reaching withhisarticles.Somecarriedhis
200,000subscribers
signature,althoughsome appearedas fromthe"Londoncorrespond-
ent,"and a numberwereevenpublishedas editorials.1 Duringthe
Civil War, Marx'sname becamefurther knownbecauseof the
addresses fromtheInternationalWorkingmen's Associationto Presi-
dentAbrahamLincolnpledgingthesupportoftheEuropeanwork-
1 Morton Borden, "Some Notes on Horace Greeley, Charles Dana and Karl Marx,"
JournalismQuarterly,XXXIV, 1957,457-65.
3

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
4 SCIENCE AND SOCIETY

ingclassfortheUnioncause.2Afterthewar,thecontacts between
Americanlaborand the I.W.A. added to the knowledge of Marx
and hiswork,and by 1870threesections oftheInternational in the
UnitedStates-a German,a French,and a Bohemian- made the
nameofMarxevenmorewidelyknown.By thistime,too,manyof
Marx'swritings,including Das Kapital,wereavailablein theUnited
States,and while thefirstvolume of Marx'smonumental workdid
not appearin English until 1887,English-language extracts were
publishedin The Socialistand theLabor Standardbetween1876
and 1878.3
It wastheParisCommune, however, thatbroughtMarx'sname
to the attentionof manyAmericans who had neverbeforeheard
of theprominent revolutionary leader.The Communewas theob-
jectofslanderand calumnyin theAmericanpress,and alongwith
thiswenta campaignof vilification of the International and its
foremost spokesman, Karl Marx.4 Although Marx was residingin
London,he was picturedas directing the CommunefromBerlin
wherehe wasalso said to be functioning as theprivatesecretary of
Bismarck. All of this,however, had theeffect of arousingcuriosity
as to whatMarxreallythought abouttheCommuneand led Ameri-
can newspapers to assigncorrespondents to seek interviews with
theleaderoftheInternational. The NewYorkHerald'scorrespond-
ent proceededto distortMarx'sstatements on the Communeand
theInternational, and theHeraldrefusedto publishMarx'sreply
to "the trashand positivefalsehoods" whichhe chargedits corre-
spondent with having attributedto him.5 However,an interview
withMarxpublishedin theNew York World ofJuly18, 1871ap-
pearedwithoutmutilation, and gaveAmericanreadersa clearpic-
tureofhisviewson theCommuneand theroleoftheInternational.
Amongotherpoints,Marxexplainedthatit wasabsurdto attribute
theParisCommuneto theInternational, whichhe described as "not
properlya government fortheworking classat all" but "a band of

2 Documents of the First International: The General Council of the First Interna-
tional, 1864-1866, Moscow, n.d., 50, 53, 57, 60, 68, 69, 94, 96.
3 Philip S. Foner, "Marx's Capital in the United States/' Science & Society,XXXI,
Fall, 1967,461-66.
4 Samuel Bernstein,"American Labor and the Paris Commune," Ibid., Spring, 1951,
154-60.
5 New York Sun, Sept. 9, 1871.

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
 TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 5
unionratherthana controlling force."The International was not
a conspiracy, foritsaim,openlyproclaimed, was "theeconomical
emancipation of the working class by the conquestof political
power."
The ChicagoTribuneinterview withMarx (reallya composite
of severalinterviews) occurredat a timeof increasing interest in
Socialistideas in thiscountry. From1873 to 1878 the nationex-
perienced theworsteconomicdeclinein itshistory up to thattime,
and,as the U.S. Commissioner of Labor pointedout, one of the
ofthedevastating
effects economiccrisiswasthat"it stimulated the
of
study panics and to a
depressions greater extent than any pre-
cedingperiod."6 Inevitably, thediagnosisofthecapitalist system by
theworld'sgreatest Socialistthinkerattracted Then too,
attention.
theanti-Socialist laws pushedthroughthe Reichstagby Bismarck
in 1878aroused interestin the ideasof the bannedSocial Demo-
craticPartyof Germany and thoseof its chiefideologistwho was
livingin exile in England.Hence the publicationof the "Inter-
viewswiththeCorner-Stone of ModernSocialism," as theChicago
Tribuneheadlinedthe article,is not at all surprising.The only
surprising thingabouttheinterview, as well as theone whichap-
pearedeightyears beforein theNew York World,isthatbothshould
so longhavebeenignored.
Exceptfortheelimination ofsubheadings whichin theoriginal
werepartofthetextbutherehavebeenrunin, theinterviews ap-
pearexactlyas theywerepublishedin 1871and 1879.Explanatory
noteshave been furnished whereverit was deemednecessary to
provide information on personalitiesand events referred to in the
interviews.

LincolnUniversity,
Pennsylvania philips. foner

6 First Annual Report of the U.S. Commissionerof Labor, 1886, p. 60.

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
6 SCIENCE AND SOCIETY
THE CURTAIN RAISED
InterviewwithKarl Marx,theHead of L'Internationale

REVOLT OF LABOR AGAINSTCAPITAL

The Two Faces of L'Internationale-
Transformation
of Society-
in theUnitedStates
ItsProgress
Had to Do WiththeCommune,
WhattheAssociation &c.

LONDON, July3.- You have askedme to findout something

abouttheInternational Association, and I havetriedto do so. The
enterprise is a difficult
one just now. Londonis indisputably the
headquarters of the association, but the Englishpeople have got
a scare,and smellinternational in everything as KingJamessmelt
gunpowder afterthefamousplot.1The consciousness of thesociety
has naturally increasedwiththe suspiciousness of the public;and
if thosewhoguideit havea secretto keep,theyare of thestamp
ofmenwhokeepa secretwell.I havecalledon twoof theirlead-
ingmembers, havetalkedwithone freely, and I heregiveyou the
substanceof myconversation. I havesatisfied myself of one thing,
thatit is a societyofgenuineworking-men, butthattheseworkmen
are directedby socialand politicaltheorists of anotherclass.One
manwhomI saw,a leadingmemberof thecouncil,was sittingat
his workman's benchduringour interview, and leftofftalkingto
me fromtime to time to receivea complaint,deliveredin no
courteous tone,fromone ofthemanylittlemasters in theneighbor-
hood who employedhim.I have heardthissameman makeelo-
quentspeechesin publicinspiredin everypassagewiththeenergy
of hatetowardstheclassesthatcall themselves his rulers.I under-
stoodthe speeches afterthis glimpse at the domestic life of the
orator.He musthavefeltthathe had brainsenoughto haveorgan-
ized a working-government, and yetherehe was obligedto devote
hislifeto themostrevolting taskworkof a mechanical profession.
He wasproudand sensitive, and yetat everyturnhe had to return
1 The Gunpowder Plot was a plot to destroythe King, Lords, and Commons in re-
venge for the penal laws against Catholics. As Guy Fawkes, the agent of the con-
spirators,was about to fire barrels of gunpowder, which had been placed under
the House of Commons, he was seized, November 5, 1605. Hence November 5 is
known in English historyas Guy Fawkes Day.

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
 TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 7
a bowfora gruntand a smilefora commandthatstoodon about
thesamelevelin thescaleof civility witha huntsman's call to his
dog.This manhelpedme to a glimpseofone sideof thenatureof
theInternational, theresultof laboragainstcapital,of the work-
man who producesagainstthe middlemanwho enjoys.Here was
thehandthatwouldsmitehardwhenthetimecame,and as to the
head thatplans,I thinkI saw that,too,in myinterview withDr.
Karl Marx.
Dr. KarlMarxis a Germandoctorofphilosophy2 witha German
breadthof knowledge derivedbothfromobservation of the living
worldand frombooks.I shouldconcludethathe has neverbeen a
worker in theordinary senseof theterm.His surroundings and ap-
pearanceare thoseof a well-to-do man of the middleclass.3The
drawing-room intowhichI was usheredon thenightof myinter-
viewwouldhave formedverycomfortable quartersfora thriving
stockbroker whohad madehiscompetence and was nowbeginning
to makehis fortune. It was comfort personified,the apartment of
a manoftasteand ofeasymeans,butwithnothingin it peculiarly
characteristicof its owner.A finealbum of Rhine viewson the
table,however, gavea clue to his nationality. I peeredcautiously
intothevaseon theside-table fora bomb.I sniffed forpetroleum,
butthesmellwas thesmellof roses.I creptbackstealthily to my
seat,and moodilyawaitedtheworst.
He has enteredand greetedme cordially, and we are sitting
faceto face.Yes,I am tete-a-tete withtherevolution incarnate, with
therealfounder andguidingspiritoftheInternational Society,with
theauthoroftheaddressin whichcapitalwastoldthatifit warred
on laborit mustexpectto haveits houseburneddownabout its
ears-in a word,withtheapologistfortheCommuneof Paris.Do
youremember thebustof Socrates, themanwho dies ratherthan
profess his belief in the gods of the time-the man withthe fine
of
sweep profile for the forehead runningmeanlyat the end into
a littlesnub,curled-up featurelikea bisectedpothookthatformed
thenose?Take thisbustin yourmind'seye,colorthebeardblack,
dashing ithereandtherewithpuffs ofgrey;claptheheadthusmade
on a portly body of the middleheight, and theDoctoris beforeyou.
2 Marx was awarded a degree of Doctor of Philosophy by the Universityof Jena in
1841. His undergraduatework was done at the Universitiesof Bonn and Berlin.
3 Marx's house in Maitland Park Road was a comfortabledwelling and very roomy.

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
8 SCIENCE AND SOCIETY
Throwa veilovertheupperpartofthefaceandyoumightbe in the
company ofa bornvestryman. Revealtheessentialfeature, theim-
mensebrow,and youknowat oncethatyouhaveto deal withthat
mostformidable of all compositeforces- a dreamerwho thinks, a
thinkerwho dreams.
Anothergentleman accompaniedDr. Marx,a German,too, I
his
believe,thoughfrom greatfamiliarity withour languageI can-
notbe sureofit.4Was he a witness on thedoctor'sside?I thinkso.
The "Council/*5 hearing of the interview, mighthereafter call on
theDoctorforhisaccountofit,fortheRevolution is aboveall things
suspicious ofitsagents.Here,then,washisevidenceincorroboration.
I wentstraight to mybusiness.The world,I said,seemedto be
in thedarkabouttheInternational, hatingit verymuch,but not
able to sayclearlywhatthingit hated.Some,whoprofessed to have
peered further into the gloom than theirneighbors, declared that
theyhadmadeouta sortofJanusfigure with a honest
fair, workman's
smileon oneofitsfaces,andon theothera murderous, conspirator's
scowl.Wouldhe lightup thecase of mystery in whichthe theory
dwelt?
The professor laughed,chuckleda littleI fancied, at thethought
thatwe wereso frightened ofhim."There is no mystery to clearup,
dearsir,"he began,in a verypolishedformoftheHans Breitmann
dialect,"exceptperhapsthe mystery of humanstupidity in those
whoperpetually ignore the fact that our association is a publicone
and thatthefullestreportsof itsproceedings are publishedforall
whocareto readthem.You maybuyour rulesfora penny,and a
shillinglaid out in pamphlets will teachyoualmostas muchabout
us as we knowourselves.
R.- Almost- yes,perhapsso; but will not thesomething I shall
notknowconstitute theall-important reservation? To be quitefrank
withyou,and putto the case as it strikesan outside observer, this
generalclaimof depreciation of you mustmeansomething more
thantheignorant ill-willof themultitude. it
And is stillpertinent

4 The other "gentleman" was probably Friedrich Engels who was also in London,
and often went to Marx's house. Engels spoke English well.
5 The "Council" was the General Council of the International Workingmen'sAsso-
ciation, its leading body which met weekly in London and correspondedwith work-
ers' groups in othercountries.

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
 TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 9
to askevenafterwhatyouhavetoldme,whatis theInternational
Society?
Dr. M- You haveonlyto lookat theindividuals of whichit is
composed-workmen.
R.- Yes, but thesoldierneed be no exponentof the statecraft
thatsetshimin motion.I knowsomeofyourmembers, and I can
believethattheyarenotofthestuff ofwhichconspirators aremade.
Besides,a secretsharedby a million men would be no secretat all.
Butwhatifthesewereonlytheinstruments in thehandsofa bold,
and I hope you will forgiveme foradding,not over-scrupulous
conclave.
Dr. M- Thereis nothing to proveit.
R.- The lastParisinsurrection?6
Dr. M.- I demandfirstly theproofthattherewasanyplotat ail-
thatanything happenedthatwas not the legitimate effectof the
circumstances of themoment;or the plot granted,I demandthe
proofs of the participation in it of theInternational Association.
R.- The presencein thecommunalbodyof so manymembers
oftheassociation.
Dr. M.- Then itwasa plotoftheFreemasons, too,fortheirshare
in theworkas individuals was byno meansa slightone. I should
notbe surprised, indeed,to findthePope settingdownthewhole
insurrection to theiraccount.But tryanotherexplanation. The in-
surrection in Pariswasmadeby theworkmen of Paris.The ablest
oftheworkmen mustnecessarily havebeenitsleadersand adminis-
trators; buttheablestof theworkmen happenalso to be members
oftheInternational Association. Yet theassociation as suchmayin
no waybe responsible fortheiraction.
R.- It will stillseemotherwise to theworld.People talkof se-
cretinstructions fromLondon,and evengrantsof money.Can it
be affirmed thattheallegedopennessof the association's proceed-
ingsprecludes ofcommunication?
all secrecy
Dr. M.- Whatassociation everformed carriedon itsworkwith-
out privateas wellas publicagencies? But to talkof secretinstruc-
tionfromLondon,as of decreesin thematterof faithand morals
fromsomecentreof Papal domination and intrigueis whollyto
referred
6 The "Paris insurrection" to the seizureof powerby the workingclass on
March18, 1871,and the establishmentof the Paris Commune.The Communefell
on May 28, 1871.

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
10 SCIENCE AND SOCIETY
misconceive the natureof the International. This would implya
centralized form of government of the International, whereasthe
real formis designedly thatwhichgivesthegreatest playto local
and
energy independence. In fact the International is not properly
a government fortheworking classat all. It is a bondofunionrather
thana controlling force.
R.- And ofunionto whatend?
Dr. M.- The economicalemancipation of theworking classby
theconquestof politicalpower.The use of thatpoliticalpowerto
theattainment ofsocialends.It is necessary thatouraimsshouldbe
thuscomprehensive to includeeveryformofworking classactivity.
To havemadethemofa specialcharacter wouldhavebeento adapt
themto the needsof one section-one nationof workmen alone.
Buthowcouldall menbe askedto uniteto further theobjectsofa
few?To havedonethattheassociation musthaveforfeited itstitle
of International. The association does not dictatetheformof po-
liticalmovements; it onlyrequiresa pledgeas to theirend. It is
a network of affiliatedsocietiesspreading all overtheworldof la-
bor.In each partof theworldsomespecialaspectof theproblem
presentsitself,and the workmenthereaddressthemselves to its
consideration in theirownway.Combinations amongworkmen can-
notbe absolutely in in
identical detail Newcastle and in Barcelona,
in Londonand in Berlin.In England,forinstance, thewayto show
politicalpowerlies open to theworking class.Insurrection would
be madnesswherepeacefulagitation wouldmoreswiftly and surely
do thework.In Francea hundredlawsof repression and a moral
antagonism between classesseem to necessitate theviolent solution
ofsocialwar.The choiceofthatsolutionis theaffair oftheworking
classesof thatcountry. The International doesnot presumeto dic-
tatein thematterand hardlyto advise.But to everymovement it
accordsits sympathy and its aid withinthe limitsassignedby its
own laws.
R.- Andwhatis thenatureofthataid?
Dr. M- To givean example,one ofthecommonest forms of the
movement foremancipation is thatof strikes.Formerly, whena
striketookplacein one country it wasdefeated bytheimportation
ofworkmen fromanother.The International hasnearlystoppedall

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
 TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 11
that.7It receivesinformation of theintendedstrike,it spreadsthat
information amongitsmembers, whoat oncesee thatforthemthe
seatofthestruggle mustbe forbidden ground.The masters are thus
leftaloneto reckonwiththeirmen.In mostcasesthemenrequire
no otheraid thanthat.Their own subscriptions or thoseof the
societiesto whichtheyare moreimmediately supplythem
affiliated
withfunds,but shouldthepressure upon them become too heavy
andthestrikebe one ofwhichtheassociation approves, their neces-
sitiesaresuppliedoutofthecommonpurse.Bythesemeansa strike
of thecigar-makers of Barcelonawas broughtto a victorious issue
theotherday.But thesocietyhas no interest in strikes,thoughit
supports themundercertainconditions. It cannotpossiblygainby
themin a pecuniary point ofview, but it may easilylose.Let us sum
it all up in a word.The working classesremainpooramidthein-
creaseofwealth,wretched amongtheincreaseofluxury.Theirma-
terialprivation dwarfs theirmoralas wellas theirphysicalstature.
They cannot relyon others fora remedy. It has becomethenwith
theman imperative necessity to taketheirowncase in hand.They
mustrevisetherelations betweenthemselves and thecapitalists and
landlords, and thatmeanstheymusttransform society.This is the
general end ofeveryknown workmen's organization; and labor
land
leagues,tradeandfriendly societies,co-operative storesand co-opera-
tiveproduction are but meanstowardsit. To establisha perfect
solidarity betweentheseorganizations is thebusinessof the Inter-
nationalAssociation. Itsinfluence is beginning to be felteverywhere.
Two papersspreaditsviewsin Spain,threein Germany, thesame
numberin Austria and in Holland, six in Belgium, and six in

7 As early as the spring of 1866, the General Council was active during tailors' strikes
in Edinburgh and London when it successfullydefeated employers' attempts to
break the strikesby bringingin recruitsfrom Germany. "A Warning," written by
Marx, was published in the Oberrhenischer Courier of May 15, 1866, urging
German workersto stay away from England and Scotland so as "to prove to other
countries that they,like their brothersin France, Belgium and Switzerland,know
how to defend the common interestsof their class and will not become obedient
mercenariesof capital in its struggleagainst labour." (Documents of the First In-
ternational,op. cit., 367-68.) In 1869, at the suggestionof Andrew Cameron, dele-
gate of the National Labor Union to the International Congress at Basel, the Gen-
eral Council established a Labor and Emigration Bureau to prevent the emigration
of workersfromEurope to replace strikersin the United States. (See Samuel Bern-
stein, The First International in America, New York, 1965, 35-34.)

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
12 SCIENCE AND SOCIETY
Switzerland.8 And nowthatI havetoldyouwhattheInternational
is youmay,perhaps,be in a positionto formyourownopinionas
to itspretended plots.
R.- I do notquiteunderstand you.
Dr. M.- Do younotsee thattheold society, wanting strength to
it
meet withits own weapons of discussion and combination, is
obligedto resortto thefraudof fixingupon it theimputation of
conspiracy?
R.- But theFrenchpolicedeclarethattheyare in a positionto
proveitscomplicity to saynothingof preceding
in the late affair,
attempts.
Dr. M.- But we will say something of thoseattempts, if you
please, because they best serveto testthe gravityof all thecharges
ofconspiracy brought againsttheInternational. You remember the
last"plot"butone.A plebiscite had beenannounced.9 Many of the
electorswereknownto be wavering. They had no longera keen
senseofthevalueoftheimperialrule,havingcometo disbelieve in
thosethreatened dangersof societyfromwhichit was supposedto
havesavedthem.A newbugbearwaswanted.The policeundertook
to findone. All combinations of workmen beinghatefulto them,
theynaturally owedtheInternational an ill-turn.A happythought
inspired them. What if theyshould select the Internationalfortheir
bugbear, and thus at once discreditthat and
society curry favor for
theimperialcause?Out of thathappythought came the ridiculous
"plot"againsttheEmperor's life-asifwewantedtokillthewretched
old fellow.They seizedtheleadingmembers of the International.
They manufactured evidence. Theyprepared their casefortrial,and
in themeantime theyhad theirplebiscite.10 But theintendedcom-

8 The International at thistimehad no trulyofficialpaperin the UnitedStates,the

Arbeiter-Union, editedbyAdolphDouai, havingexpiredin September, 1870.There
stillexisted,however,the semi-officialBulletinde l'unionrépublicaineand Wood-
hull ir Claflin'sWeeklywhich,thoughthe organof Section12 in New YorkCity,
was in conflict
withtheleadersof theInternational.
9 The plebiscitewas held by NapoleonIII on May 7, 1870,to confirm someliberal
constitutionalchangesoffered by thegovernment, and to providea showof popular
endorsement of the Empire.The International sectionsadvocatedabstentionfrom
voting.
10 On theeve of theplebiscite, the policeconductedthreemassarrestsof members of
theInternational. The trial,in June-July,1870,resultedin prisontermsfora num-
berof theInternational leaders.

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
 TWO INTERVIEWS WITH MARX 13

edywas too obviouslybut a broad,coarsefarce.IntelligentEurope,

whichwitnessedthe spectacle,was not deceivedfora momentas to
itscharacter, and onlythe Frenchpeasantelectorwas befooled.Your
Englishpapersreportedthe beginningof the miserableaffair;they
forgotto noticetheend. The Frenchjudges,admittingthe existence
of the plot by officialcourtesy,were obliged to declare that there
was nothingto show the complicityof the International.Believe
me, thesecondplot is like the first.The Frenchfunctionary is again
in business.He is called in to accountforthebiggestcivil movement
the worldhas everseen. A hundredsignsof the timesoughtto sug-
gest the rightexplanation-the growthof intelligenceamong the
workmen,of luxuryand incompetenceamong theirrulers,the his-
toricalprocessnow goingon of thatfinaltransfer of power froma
class to the people, the apparentfitnessof time,place, and circum-
stancefor the greatmovementof emancipation.But to have seen
thesethefunctionary musthave been a philosopher,and he is onlya
mouchard.11 By the law he has fallen back
of his being, therefore,
upon the mouchard's explanation- "conspiracy."His old port-
a
folioof forgeddocumentswill supplyhim withthe proofs,and this
timeEurope in itsscarewill believe the tale.
R.- Europe can scarcelyhelp itself,seeing that everyFrench
newspaperspreads the report.
Dr. M.- EveryFrenchnewspaperlSee, here is one of them (tak-
ing up La Situation),and judge foryourselfof the value of its evi-
dence as to a matterof fact.[Reads] "Dr. Karl Marx, of the Inter-
national,has been arrestedin Belgium,tryingto make his way to
France. The police of London have long had their eye on the
societywithwhichhe is connected,and are now takingactivemeas-
ures forits suppression."Two sentencesand two lies. You can test
the evidenceof your own senses.You see that insteadof being in
prisonin Belgium I am at home in England. You must also know
that the police in England are as powerlessto interferewith the
InternationalSocietyas the societywith them. Yet what is most
regularin all this is that the reportwill go the round of the con-
tinentalpresswithouta contradiction, and could continueto do so
if I wereto circularizeeveryjournal in Europe fromthisplace.

11 Stoolpigeon;spy; informer.

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
14 SCIENCE AND SOCIETY
R.- Have you attemptedto contradictmany of these false
reports?
Dr. M.- I havedoneso tillI havegrownwearyofthelabor.To
showthe grosscarelessness withwhichtheyare concoctedI may
mention that in one ofthem I sawFelixPyatsetdownas a member
of the International.12
R.- Andhe is notso?
Dr. M- The association couldhardlyhavefoundroomforsuch
a wild man. He was once presumptuous enoughto issue a rash
proclamation in our name,but it was instantlydisavowed,though,
to do themjustice,thepressofcourseignoredthedisavowal.
R.- And Mazzini,is he a memberofyourbody?13
Dr. Marx (laughing)- Ah, no. We shouldhavemadebut little
progress ifwe hadnotgotbeyondtherangeofhisideas.
R.-You surpriseme. I shouldcertainly have thoughtthathe
represented themostadvancedviews.
Dr. M.- He represents nothingbetterthanthe old idea of a
middle-class republic. We seek no partwiththemiddleclass.He
has fallen far to therearof the modernmovement as theGerman
professors,who,nevertheless, in Europeas the
are stillconsidered
apostlesofthecultureddemocratism ofthefuture. Theywereso at
one time-before'48, perhaps,whenthe Germanmiddleclass,in
the Englishsense,had scarcelyattainedits properdevelopment.
But nowtheyhavegoneoverbodilyto thereaction, and theprole-
tariatknowsthemno more.
R.- Somepeoplehavethought theysawsignsofa positivistele-
mentin yourorganization.14

12 Marx frequentlyreferredto Félix Pyat as the example of an extremeradical phrase-

mongerwho specialized in invocations to terrorismjust before he himselfran away.
In a letter of May 12, 1871, JennyMarx, Marx's daughter, referredto "knightsof
the phrase like Félix Pyat. . . ." (Hal Draper, editor, Karl Marx and Friedrich
Engels, Writingson the Paris Commune, New York and London, 1971, 223.)
13 Guiseppe Mazzini (1805-1872) was the founder of "Young Italy" and the European
Democratic Committeewith the objective of unifyingItaly. His program demanded
the independence and unity of Italy under the slogan, "God and the People." Marx
frequentlycriticizedthe bourgeois character of Mazzini's program.
14 Positivismwas the philosophy of the followersof August Comte, who took from
Saint-Simon a religious-like belief in "positive science," especially "sociology" (a
word Comte invented). The Positivistswere bourgeois reformers,and while they
favored a "thorough moral adjustment of the relations of capital and labor," they
opposed violence. Although the Positivistscondemned its "repressivemeasures,"they

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
 TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 15
Dr. M- No suchthing.We have positivists amongus, and others
notofourbody who workas well. But this notbyvirtueof their
is
philosophy, whichwillhavenothing todo withpopulargovernment,
as we understand it,andwhichseeksonlyto puta newhierarchy in
place of the old one.
R._It seemsto me,then,thatthe leadersof the new interna-
tionalmovement havehad to forma philosophy as wellas an asso-
ciationforthemselves.
Dr. M.- Precisely.It is hardlylikely,forinstance, thatwe could
hopeto prosperin our waragainstcapitalif we deriveour tactics,
sayfromthepoliticaleconomy of Mill.15He has tracedone kindof
relationship between labor and capital.We hope to showthatit
is possibletoestablish another.
R.- And as to religion?
Dr. M.- On thatpointI cannotspeakin the name of the so-
ciety.I myself aman atheist. no doubt,to hearsuchan
It is startling,
avowalin England,butthereis somecomfort in thethought thatit
neednotbe madein a whisperin eitherGermany or France.
R.-And yetyoumakeyourheadquarters in thiscountry?
Dr. M.- For obviousreasons;therightof association is herean
established thing.It exists,indeed,in Germany, but it is besetwith
innumerable in
difficulties; France for manyyearsit hasnotexisted
at all.
R.-And the UnitedStates?
Dr. M.- The chiefcentresof our activityare forthe present
amongtheoldsocieties ofEurope.Manycircumstances havehitherto
tendedtoprevent thelaborproblemfromassuming an all-absorbing
importance in the United States. But are
they rapidlydisappearing,
and it is rapidlycomingto thefronttherewiththegrowthas in
Europeofa laboringclassdistinct fromtherestof thecommunity
and divorced fromcapital.16
were friendlyto the Commune, and praised such legislativeacts of the Commune as
the abolition of the standing army,the repeal of capital punishment,and the ad-
missionof foreignersto office.
15 John Stuart Mill (1806-1873) was the English philosopher and classical economist
whose viewswere influencedby socialistcriticism.
16 On March 5, 1852, Marx wrote to Joseph Weydemeyerthat "bourgeois society m
the United States has not yet developed far enough to make the class struggle
obvious and comprehensible."In 1881, however, he wrote to F. A. Sorge that in
the United States "capitalist economy and the correspondingenslavement of the

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
16 SCIENCE AND SOCIETY

R.-It would seem that in this countrythe hoped for solution,

whateverit may be, will be attainedwithoutthe violentmeans of
revolution.The English systemof agitatingby platformand press
until minoritiesbecomeconvertedinto majoritiesis a hopefulsign.
Dr. M.-I am not so sanguineon thatpointas you. The English
middle class has alwaysshown itselfwilling enough to accept the
verdictof the majorityso long as it enjoyed the monopolyof the
votingpower. But mark me, as soon as it findsitselfoutvotedon
whatit considersvitalquestionswe shall see herea new slave-owner's
war.
I have heregivenyou as well as I can rememberthemthe heads
of my conversationwith thisremarkableman. I shall leave you to
formyour own conclusions.Whatevermay be said for or against
the probabilityof its complicitywith the movementof the Com-
mune we may be assuredthatin the InternationalAssociationthe
civilizedworldhas a new powerin itsmidstwithwhichit mustsoon
come to a reckoningforgood or ill. R. landor
NEW YORK WORLD, July18, 1871

KARL MARX

ofModern Socialism
Interviewswiththe Corner-Stone
He Gives Some Informationas to the Doings and Objects
of Himselfand His Disciples
The Recent Systemof Land and Capital to Give Place to
a "Higher Social Condition''
Blood Will Flow, Because "No GreatMovementHas Ever
Been InauguratedWithoutBloodshed"
Bismarck"the Ridicule of All Statesmen";and the
Rev. JosephCook "a VeryBadly-Informed Man"

LONDON, Dec. 18.- In a littlevilla at HaverstockHill, in the

northwestportionof London, lives Karl Marx, the corner-stone of
workingclass have developed more rapidly and shamelesslythan in any other coun-
try." (Karl Marx & Frederick Engels, Letters to Americans, 1848-1895, New York,
1953,44, 129.)

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
 TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 17
modernSocialism. He wasexiledfromhisnativecountry- Germany
-in 1844,forpropagating revolutionary theories.In 1848 he re-
turned,butin a fewmonths wasagainexiled.He thentookup his
abode in Paris,but his politicaltheoriesprocuredhis expulsion
fromthatcityin 1849,and sincethatyearhis headquarters have
beenin London.His convictions havecausedhimtroublefromthe
beginning. Judging fromtheappearance ofhishome,theycertainly
him
havenotbrought affluence. Persistentlyduringall theseyears
he hasadvocatedhisviewswithan earnestness whichundoubtedly
springsfrom a firm belief in them, and, however muchwe may
deprecate their propagation, we cannot but respect a certainex-
to
tenttheself-denial of thenowvenerated exile.
Your correspondent has called upon him twiceor thrice,and
eachtimetheDoctorwasfoundin his library, witha bookin one
handanda cigarette in theother.He mustbe over70 yearsofage.17
His physiqueis well-knit, massive, and erect.He has thehead of a
manofintellect, and thefeatures of a cultivatedJew.His hairand
beardarelong,and iron-gray in color.His eyesare glitteringblack,
shadedbya pairofbushyeyebrows. To a strangerhe showsextreme
caution.A foreigner can generally gainadmission:but theancient-
looking German woman18 who waits upon visitorshas instructions
to admitnonewhohail fromtheFatherland, unlesstheybringlet-
tersof introduction. Once into his library,however,and, having
fixedhisone eye-glass in thecornerofhiseye,in orderto takeyour
breadth
intellectual anddepth,so tospeak,he losesthatself-restraint,
and unfoldsto youa knowledge of menand thingsthroughout the
worldaptto interest one.Andhisconversation doesnotrunin one
groove,but is as varied as are the volumes uponhislibraryshelves.
A mancan generally be judgedbythebookshe reads,and youcan
formyourownconclusions whenI tellyoua casualglancerevealed
Shakespeare, Dickens,Thackeray, Moliere,Racine,Montaigne, Ba-
con,Goethe,Voltaire, Paine;English,American, French bluebooks;
workspoliticaland philosophical in Russian,German,Spanish,Ital-
ian,etc.,etc.Duringmyconversations I wasstruck withhisintimacy
withAmericanquestions, whichhave been uppermost duringthe
Marxwas midwaybetween60 and 61.
17 At thetimeof theinterview
18 She was undoubtedlyHelene Demuth,the housekeeperand friendof the Marx
family.

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
18 SCIENCE AND SOCIETY

pasttwenty years.19His knowledge of them,and thesurprising ac-

curacy with which he criticisedour National and State legislation,
impressed upon mymindthe factthathe musthave derivedhis
information frominsidesources.But,indeed,thisknowledge is not
confined to America,but is spreadoverthefaceof Europe.When
speaking ofhishobby-Socialism- he doesnotindulgein thosemelo-
dramaticflights generally attributed to him,but dwellsupon his
Utopianplans for "the emancipation thehumanrace"witha firm
of
conviction in therealization ofhistheories, ifnotin thiscentury, at
leastin thenext.
PerhapsDr. KarlMarxis betterknownin Americaas theauthor
of"Capital,"andthefounder oftheInternational Society,or at least
itsmostprominent In theinterview
pillar.20 whichfollows, youwill
see whathe saysofthisSocietyas it at thepresent timeexists.How-
ever,in themeantime, I willgiveyoua fewextracts fromtheprinted
generalrulesof The International Society,publishedin 1871,by
orderof theGeneralCouncil,fromwhichyoucan forman impar-
tialjudgmentof itsaimsand ends.The preamblesetsforth"That
theemancipation of theworking classesmustbe conqueredby the
working classesthemselves; thatthestruggle forthe emancipation
of theworking classesmeansnota struggle forclassprivileges and
monopolies, but for equal rights and and
duties, the abolition of all
classrule; thatthe ecumenicalsubjection of the man of labor to
themonopolizer of themeansof labor-thatis, thesourcesof life-
liesat thebottomofservitude in all itsforms, of all socialmisery,
19 Marx was in frequentcorrespondence with Americansocialistsand gained con-
siderableknowledgefromtheirlettersabout eventsin the UnitedStates.In addi-
tion,theysuppliedhim withAmericannewspapers, booksand official reports.In
thisconnection, to read him writingto Sorgeon October19, 1877:
it is interesting
"A fewyearsago (not many)a sortof Blue Book was published(I don't know
whetherofficialor not) on the conditionsof the minersin Pennsylvania who live,
as we know,in the most feudal dependenceupon the moneylords (I thinkthe
thingwas publishedafterthe bloodyconflict). It is of the greatestimportance for
me to have thispublication, and if you can get it forme I will send you whatit
costs.If not,perhapsyou can get me the title,and I shall thenask Harney(in
Boston)."(Lettersto Americans, op. cit.,p. 117.) The "bloodyconflict"refersto
the Pennsylvaniaminers'"longstrikeof 1875"brokenby hungerand force.George
JulianHarney,leaderof the leftwingof the Chartistsand a memberof the First
had emigrated
International, to the UnitedStates,and furnished Marx withmuch
materialpublishedin thiscountry.
20 The "International Society"was theInternational Workingmen's Association,found-
ed in 1864.

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
 TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 19
mentaldegradation, and politicaldependence;thatall efforts aim-
ingat theuniversal emancipation of theworking classeshavehith-
ertofailedfromwantof solidarity betweenthemanifolddivisions
oflaborin eachcountry," and thepreamblecallsfor"theimmedi-
ate combination of the stilldisconnected movements." It goeson to
saythattheInternational Association acknowledge "no rightswith-
out duties,no dutieswithoutrights,"- thusmakingeverymember
a worker. The Association was formed at London"to afford a cen-
tralmediumofcommunication andco-operation betweentheWork-
ingmen's Societies in the different countries, aiming at the same
the
end,namely: protection, advancement and completeemancipa-
tionoftheworking classes.""Eachmember," thedocument further
says,"of the International Association, on removinghis domicile
fromone country to another, will receivethefraternal supportof
the associatedworkingmen."
The Society consistsofa GeneralCongress, whichmeetannually;
a GeneralCouncil,whichforms"an international agencybetween
thedifferent nationaland local groupsof theAssociation, so that
theworkingmen in one country can be constantly informed of the
movements of theirclass in everyothercountry."This Council
receivesand actsupon applicationof new Branchesor Sectionsto
join theInternational, decidesdifferences arisingbetweenthe Sec-
tions,and,in fact,to use an American phrase,"runsthemachine."
The expenses oftheGeneralCouncilaredefrayed byan annualcon-
tribution ofan Englishpennypermember. Then comestheFederal
Councilsor Committees, and localSections, in thevariouscountries.
The FederalCouncilsare boundto sendone reportat leastevery
monthto the GeneralCouncil,and everythreemonthsa report
on theadministration andfinancial stateoftheirrespective branches.
Whenever attacks againsttheInternationals arepublished, thenear-
estBranchor Committee is boundto sendat once a copyof such
publication to the General Council. The formation of Female
Branches amongtheworking classesis recommended.
The GeneralCouncilcomprises the following:R. Applegarth,
M. T. Boon,Fredrick Bradnick, G. H. Buttery, E. Dalahaye,Eugene
Dupont (on mission), William G.
Hales, Harris,Hurliman,Jules
Johannard, Harriet Law, Frederick Lessner,Lochner,CharlesLon-
guet,C. Martin, Zevy Maurice, HenryMayo,GeorgeMilner,Charles
Murray, Pfander, JohnRoach,Rubt.Sadler,CowellStepney, Alfred

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
20 SCIENCE AND SOCIETY

Taylor,W. Townsend,F. Vaillant,JohnWeston.The Correspond-

ing Secretariesforthe variouscountriesare: Leo Frankel,forAus-
tria and Hungary; A. Herman, Belgium; T. Mottersbend,21 Den-
mark; A. Serraillier,France; Karl Marx, Germanyand Russia;
Charles Rochat, Holland; J. P. McDonnell,22Ireland; Frederick
Engels, Italy and Spain; Walery Wroblewski,23 Poland; Hermann
Jung, Switzerland;J. G. Eccarius, United States; Le Moussu, for
Frenchbranchesof United States.
During my visit to Dr. Marx I alluded to the platformgiven
by C. BancroftDavis in his officialreportof 1877,24as the clearest
and mostconciseexpositionof SocialismthatI had seen. He said it
was taken fromthe reportof the Socialistreunion at Gotha, Ger-
many,in May, 1875. The translationwas incorrect,he said, and he
volunteereda correction,whichI append as he dictated:25
First-Universal,direct,and secretsuffragefor all males over
20 years,forall elections,Municipal and State.
Second-Direct legislationby the people. War and peace to be
made by directpopularvote.
Th ird- Universalobligationto militia duty.No standingarmy.
Fourth-Abolitionof all special legislationregardingpresslaws
and public meetings.
Fifth-"Legalremediesfreeof expense. Legal proceedingsto be
conductedby the people.
Sixth- Education to be by the State,-general,obligatory,and
free.Freedomof scienceand religion.
Seventh-All indirecttaxes to be abolished. Money to be raised
forState and Municipal purposesby directprogressiveincometax.

21 Thecorrectname is Thomas Mottershead.

22 Thecorrectname is P. J. McDonnell.
23 Thecorrectname is ValéryWroblewski.
24 Thereferenceis to the officialreport of Charles Bancroft Davis, U.S. Minister to
Germany. It was addressed to Hamilton Fish, Secretaryof State under President
Grant, and is published in United States State Department. Papers Relating to For-
eign Relations of the United States,Washington,1877, 175-80.
25 The text as it appears in the interviewis taken fromthe original protocol of 1875.
However, Marx omitted the last demand calling for religion to be a private matter.
He believed this demand to be "bourgeois," and, in his recommendationsto the
German Working Class Party in 1875, he had suggestedthat in their program they
demand freedomof thoughtfromthe "religious ghost." Also missingis the demand
in the preamble of the Gotha Programmefor "the self-managementof all workers'
social funds."

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
 TWO INTERVIEWSWITH MARX 21

Eighth-Freedomof combination amongtheworking classes.

Ninth-The legaldayoflaborformento be defined. The work
ofwomento be limited,and thatof childrento be abolished.
Tenth-Sanitarylaws forthe protection of life and healthof
laborers,andregulation oftheirdwellings and placesoflabor,to be
enforced bypersons selectedbythem.
Elèvent h- Suitableprovision respecting prison-labor.
In Mr. Bancroft Davis*reportthereis a TwelfthClause,the
mostimportant ofall, whichreads:"Stateaid and creditforindus-
trialsocieties,underdemocratic direction." I askedtheDoctorwhy
he omittedthis,and he replied:
"Whenthereuniontookplaceat Gotha,in 1875,thereexisted
a divisionamongtheSocialDemocrats. The onewingwerepartisans
ofLassalle;26 theothers, thosewhohad acceptedin generalthepro-
grammeof the International organization, and were called the
Eisenachparty.That twelfth point was not placedon theplatform
butplacedin thegeneralintroduction bywayofconcession to the
Lassallians. Afterwards it was neverspoken of. Mr. Davis does not
saythatit wasplacedin theprogramme as a compromise havingno
particular but
significance, gravely putsit in as one of the cardinal
of the '
principles programme/
I
"But," said,"Socialists generallylookuponthetransformation
of themeansof labor into the common property of societyas the
grandclimaxofthemovement."
"Yes;wesaythatthiswillbe theoutcomeofthemovement, but
it willbe a questionof time,ofeducation, and theinstitution of a
highersocialstatus."
"This platform,"I remarked, "appliesonlyto Germany and one
or twoothercountries."
"Ah!" he returned, "ifyoudrawyourconclusions fromnothing
butthis,youknownothingoftheactivity of theparty.Manyof its
pointshaveno significance outsideofGermany. Spain,Russia,Eng-
26 Ferdinand Lassalle (1825-1864) was the German lawyerand labor leader who found-
ed the General German Workers Union in 1863, and was criticizedby Marx as an
advocate of opportunismin German Social-Democracy.For a detailed characteriza-
tion of Lasalle by Marx, see his letter to Kugelmann, Feb. 23, 1865, in The Selected
Correspondenceof Karl Marx and Frederick Engels, 1846-1895, New York, 1942,
193-97.

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
22 SCIENCE AND SOCIETY

land, and Americahave platformssuited to theirpeculiar difficul-

ties.The onlysimilarity in themis the end to be attained."
"And thatis thesupremacyof labor?"
"That is the emancipationof labor."
"Do European Socialistslook upon the movementin Americaas
a serious one?"
"Yes; it is the natural outcome of the country'sdevelopment.
It has been said thatthemovementhas been importedby foreigners.
When labor movementsbecame disagreeablein England,fifty years
ago, the same thingwas said; and thatwas long before Socialismwas
spoken of. In America,since 1857 only, has the labor movement be-
come conspicuous.Then Trades-Unionsbegan to flourish;then
Trades-Assemblies were formed,in which the workersin different
industriesunited; and afterthat came National Labor Unions.27
If you considerthischronologicalprogress,you will see thatSocial-
ismhas sprungup in thatcountrywithoutthe aid of foreigners, and
was merelycaused by the concentrationof capital and the changed
relationsbetweenthe workmenand theiremployers."
"Now," asked your correspondent, "what has Socialismdone so
far?"
"Two things,"he returned."Socialistshave shown the general
universal strugglebetween capital and labor,-the cosmopolitan
character,in one word,-and consequentlytried to bringabout an
understandingbetween the workmenin the differentcountries,
which became more necessaryas the capitalistsbecame more cos-
mopolitanin hiringlabor, pittingforeignagainstnative labor not
only in America,but in England, France, and Germany.Interna-
tional relationssprangup at once betweenthe workingmenin the
different countries,showingthat Socialismwas not merelya local,
but an internationalproblem,to be solved by the international
action of workmen.The workingclass moved spontaneously, with-
out knowingwhatthe ends of the movementwill be. The Socialists
inventno movement,but merelytell the workmenwhat its char-
acterand itsendswill be."
"Which means the overthrowing of the presentsocial system,"
I understand.
27 For the growthof the American labor movementafterthe panic of 1857, see Philip
S. Foner, History of the Labor Movement in the United States, I, New York, 1947,
2400e.

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
 TWO INTERVIEWS WITH MARX 23

"This systemof land and capital in the hands of employers,on

the one hand," he continued,"and the mere workingpower in the
handsof the laborersto sell as a commodity, we claim is merelyan
historicalphase, which will pass away and give place to a higher
social condition.We see everywhere a divisionof society.The an-
tagonism of the twoclasses goes hand in hand withthe development
of the industrialresourcesof moderncountries.From a Socialistic
standpointthe means alreadyexist to revolutionizethe presenthis-
toricalphase. Upon Trades-Unions,in many countries,have been
builtpoliticalorganizations. In Americatheneed of an independent
Workingmen's party has been made manifest.They can no longer
trustpoliticians.Ringsand cliques have seizedupon the Legislature,
and politicshas been made a trade.But Americais not alone in this,
only its people are more decisivethan Europeans.Things come to
thesurfacequicker.There is lesscantand hypocrisy thanthereis on
thisside of theocean."
I asked him to give me a reason for the rapid growthof the
Socialistpartyin Germany,whenhe replied: "The presentSocialistic
partycame last. Theirs was not the Utopian schemewhich made
someheadwayin Franceand England.The Germanmind is givento
theorizing,more than that of other peoples. From previous ex-
perience the Germansevolved somethingpractical.This modern
capitalisticsystem,you mustrecollect,is quite new in Germanyin
comparisonto otherStates.Questionswereraisedwhichhad become
almostantiquatedin France and England, and political influences
to whichtheseStateshad yieldedspranginto lifewhen the working
classes of Germanyhad become imbued with Socialistictheories.
Therefore,fromthe beginningalmostof modernindustrialdevelop-
ment,theyhave formedan independentpolitical party.They had
theirown representatives in the GermanParliament.There was no
to
party oppose the policy of the Government,and this devolved
upon them.To tracethecourseof the partywould takea long time;
but I maysay this: that,if the middle classesof Germanywere not
thegreatestcowards,distinctfromthemiddleclassesof Americaand
England,all the politicalworkagainstthe Governmentshould have
been done by them."
I asked him a questionregardingthe numericalstrengthof the
Lassalliansin theranksof the Internationalists.
"The partyof Lassalle," he replied, "does not exist. Of course

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
24 SCIENCE AND SOCIETY

thereare some believersin our ranks,but the numberis small.Las-

salle anticipatedour general principles.When he commencedto
move afterthe reactionof 1848,he fanciedthathe could moresuc-
cessfullyrevive the movementby advocatingco-operationof the
workingmenin industrialenterprises.It was to stir them into ac-
tivity.He looked upon this merelyas a means to the real end of
the movement.I have lettersfromhim to thiseffect."
"You would call it his nostrum."
"Exactly.He called upon Bismarck,told him what he designed,
and BismarckencouragedLassalle's course at that time in every
possible way."28
"What was his object?"
"He wished to use the workingclasses as a set-off against the
middle classeswho instigatedthe troublesof 1848."
"It is said thatyou are the head and frontof Socialism,Doctor,
and fromyourvilla here pull the wiresof all the associations,revo-
lutions,etc.,now goingon. What do you say about it?"
The old gentlemansmiled: "I know it. It is veryabsurd,yet it
has a comicside. For twomonthspreviousto theattemptof Hoedet,
Bismarckcomplainedin his North GermanGazette29thatI was in
league withFatherBeck,theleaderof theJesuitmovement, and that
we werekeepingthe Socialistmovementin such a conditionthathe
could do nothingwithit."
"But your InternationalSocietyin London directsthe move-
ment!"
"The InternationalSocietyhas outlivedits usefulnessand exists
no longer.It did existand directthe movementsbut the growthof
Socialismof late yearshas been so greatthatitsexistencehas become
unnecessary. Newspapershave been startedin the variouscountries.
These are interchanged. That is about the onlyconnectionthe par-
ties in the differentcountrieshave withone another.The Interna-
tional Society,in the firstinstance,was createdto bringthe work-
men together,and show the advisabilityof effecting organization
among their various nationalities.The interestsof each partyin
the different countrieshave no similarity.The spectreof the Inter-

28 The charge that Lassalle worked secretlywith Bismarckis well founded. It was con-
firmedin 1928 by the discoveryof correspondencebetween Lassalle and Bismarck
in which the formerpromised the latter ¿he support of German workers.
29 The name of the journal in German was NorddeutscherZeitung.

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
 TWO INTERVIEWS WITH MARX 25

nationalistleaderssittingat London is a mere invention.It is true

that we dictatedto foreignsocietieswhen the Internationalistor-
ganizationwas firstaccomplished.We were forcedto exclude some
Sectionsin New York,amongthemone in whichMadam Woodhull
was conspicuous.30 That was in 1871. There are severalAmerican
politicians-I will not name them-who wish to trade in the move-
ment.They are well knownto AmericanSocialists."
"You and yourfollowers,Dr. Marx,have been creditedwithall
sortsof incendiaryspeechesagainstreligion.Of course you would
like to see the whole systemdestroyed,root and branch."
"We know,"he replied aftera moment'shesitation,"that vio-
lentmeasuresagainstreligionare nonsense;but this is an opinion:
as Socialismgrows,religionwill disappear.Its disappearancemustbe
done by social development,in which educationmust play a great
part."
"The Rev. JosephCook, of Boston,31- you know him-"
"We heardof him; a verybadlyinformedman upon the subject
of Socialism."
"In a lecture lately upon the subject, he said: 'Karl Marx is
creditednow with sayingthat,in the United States,and in Great
Britain,and perhapsin France,a reformof labor will occurwithout
bloodyrevolution,but thatblood mustbe shed in Germany,and in
"
Russia,and in Italy,and in Austria/
"No Socialist,"remarkedthe Doctor,smiling,"need predictthat
therewill be a bloodyrevolutionin Russia, Germany,Austria,and
possiblyin Italy if the Italians keep on in the policy theyare now
30 "Madam Woodhull" was Victoria Woodhull, who with her sister, Tennessee C.
Claflin,was leader of Section 12 of the International in the United States. In 1870
the sisterscreated a sensation by starting a banking and brokerage business and
rapidly became known as the "Bewitching Bankers of Wall Street." An advocate
of women's rights, including free love, proportional representation,civil service
reform,dissolution of corporate monopolies, control of national banks, low rates of
interest,conservationof the national domain, direct taxation, national education,
an eight hour day, abolition of standing armies, Victoria Woodhull was an ad-
vanced thinkerfor her time. In 1872 she ran for President of the United States on
a platformwhich incorporatedmany of these demands. But leaders of the Inter-
national charged Miss Woodhull with using the International for her personal
advancement,and attractingall kinds of malcontentsto the cause.
31 Reverend Joseph Cook, a formerHarvard student,was a popular lecturer on secu-
lar subjects; his speciality,apart from defendingcapitalism, was reconcilingscience
and the Bible.

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
26 SCIENCE AND SOCIETY

pursuing.32 The deeds of the French Revolution may be enacted

again in thosecountries.That is apparentto any politicalstudent.
But thoserevolutionswill be made by the majority.No revolution
can be made by a party,but by a nation."
"The reverendgentlemanalluded to," I remarked,"gave an ex-
tractfroma letterwhichhe said you addressedto the Communists
of Paris in 1871. Here it is: We are as yetbut 3,000,000at most.In
twentyyearswe shall be 50,000,000,-100,000,000 perhaps.Then the
worldwill belong to us, forit will be not only Paris, Lyons,Mar-
seilles,which will rise againstodious capital, but Berlin, Munich,
Dresden,London, Liverpool, Manchester,Brussels,St. Petersburg,
New York,-in short,the whole world.And beforethis new insur-
rection,such as historyhas not yet known,the past will disappear
like a hideous nightmare;forthe popular conflagration, kindledat
a hundredpointsat once,will destroy even its memory!'Now, Doc-
tor,I supposeyou admit the authorshipof thatextract?"
"I never wrotea word of it. I never writesuch melodramatic
nonsense.I am verycarefulwhat I do write.That was put in Le
Figaro,overmysignature,about thattime.There werehundredsof
the same kind of lettersflyingabout then. I wroteto the London
Times and declaredtheywere forgeries;but, if I denied everything
that has been said and writtenof me, I would require a score of
secretaries."
"But you have writtenin sympathy withthe Paris Communists?"
"CertainlyI have,in considerationof what was writtenof them
in leading articles;but the correspondencefromParis in English
papers is quite sufficientto refutethe blunderspropagatedin edi-
torials. The Commune killed only about sixty people; Marshal
MacMahon and his slaughteringarmykilled over 60,000.33There
has neverbeen a movementso slanderedas thatof the Commune."
"Well, then,to carryout the principlesof Socialismdo its be-
lieversadvocateassassinationand bloodshed?"
"No greatmovement,"Karl Marx answered,"has ever been in-

32 The referenceis probably to the effortsof the Italian monarchy at this time to
restorethe church's sovereigntyover the greaterpart of Italy.
33 In The Civil War in France, Marx wrote of the "carnage with which MacMahon s
introductionto Marx's
praetorianscelebrated their entrance into Paris," and in his
Class Struggle in France, 1848-1850, Engels wrote of Paris having "bled profusely
fromthe bullets of MacMahon."

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
 TWO INTERVIEWS WITH MARX 27

augurateciwithoutbloodshed.The independenceof America was

won by bloodshed. Napoleon captured France througha bloody
process,and he was overthrown by the same means. Italy,England,
Germany, and every other countrygives proofof this,and as for
assassination,"he went on to say, "it is not a new thing,I need
scarcelysay. Orsini triedto kill Napoleon; kingshave killed more
than anybodyelse; the Jesuitshave killed; the Puritanskilled at
the timeof Cromwell.These deeds were all done or attemptedbe-
foreSocialismwas known.Everyattempt,however,now made upon
a Royal or State individual is attributedto Socialism. The So-
cialistwould regretverymuch the deathof the GermanEmperorat
the presenttime. He is veryusefulwherehe is; and Bismarckhas
done moreforthe cause thanany otherstatesman,by drivingthings
to extremes."
I asked Dr. Marx what he thoughtof Bismarck.
He replied that "Napoleon was considereda genius until he fell;
thenhe was called a fool. Bismarckwill followin his wake. He be-
gan by buildingup a despotismunder the plea of unification.His
coursehas been plain to all. The last move is but an attemptedimi-
tationof a coup d'etat; but it will fail. The Socialistsof Germany,
as of France,protestedagainstthe war of 1870 as merelydynastic.
They issued manifestoestelling the German people that, if they
allowed the pretendedwar of defenseto be turnedinto a war of
conquest,theywould be punishedby the establishment of military
despotism and the ruthless
oppression of the productivemasses.The
Social Democraticpartyin Germany,thereuponholding meetings
and publishingmanifestoesfor an honorable peace with France,
wereat once prosecutedby the PrussianGovernment, and manyof
the leadersimprisoned. Still theirDeputies alone dared to protest,
and veryvigorouslytoo,in the GermanReichstag,againstthe force-
able annexationof Frenchprovinces.However,Bismarckcarriedhis
policyby force,and people spoke of the geniusof a Bismarck.The
war was fought,and, when he could make no more conquests,he
was called upon fororiginalideas, and he has signallyfailed.The
people began to lose faithin him. His popularitywas on the wane.
He needsmoney,and the Stateneeds it. Under a sham Constitution
he has taxed the people forhis militaryand unificationplans until
he can tax themno longer,and now he seeksto do it withno Con-
stitutionat all. For the purpose of levyingas he chooses,he has

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions
28 SCIENCE AND SOCIETY

raisedthe ghostof Socialism,and has done everything in his power

to createan erneute."84
"You have continualadvicesfromBerlin?"
"Yes," he said; "myfriendskeep me well advised.It is in a per-
fectlyquiet state,and Bismarckis disappointed.He has expelled
forty-eight prominentmen,-among them Deputies Hasselmanand
Fritsche,and Rakow,Bauman,and Auer,of theFree Presse?*These
menkepttheworkmenof Berlinquiet. Bismarckknewthis.He also
knew that therewere 75,000 workmenin thatcityupon the verge
of starvation.Once those leaderswere gone, he was confidentthat
the mob would rise, and that would be the cue for a carnivalof
slaughter.The screwswould then be put upon the whole German
Empire; his pet theoryof blood and iron36would then have full
sway,and taxationcould be levied to any extent.So farno erneute
has occurred,and he standsto-dayconfoundedat the situationand
the ridiculeof all statesmen." h.

THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE, Jan.5, 1879

tumult;rising;outbreak.
34 Riot; disturbance;
35 Bismarck'sExceptionalLaw- the anti-SocialistLaw, introducedby Bismarckin
October,1878 (repealed in October,1890)-outlawed socialistorganizations and
publications,and provided for the persecutionof members. Actually,not 48 but
"67 of our mostwell-known partycomradeshave been thrownout,"of which"the
majorityhad to leave the cityin 48 hours,"wroteAugustBebel in his autobiog-
raphy(Aus MeinemLeben). Probablythe ChicagoTribuneconfusedthe timewith
thenumberofmenexpelled.
36 In the budgetcommissionof the Prussianparliament,where Bismarckfor the
firsttimeexplainedsome of his ministerialduties,he came out strongly against
theliberals,saying:"Germany doesnotlookat Prussia'sliberalismbut at herpower
-Prussia mustkeep her powertogether forthe auspiciousmoment,whichalready
has been misseda few times;the Prussianboundariesare not favorablefor the
formation of a healthystate.The greatquestionsof the age are not settledby
speechesand majority votes-thiswas the errorof 1848-49-but by ironand blood."

This content downloaded from 195.78.108.60 on Fri, 20 Jun 2014 02:45:19 AM

All use subject to JSTOR Terms and Conditions