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‘It’s Time to Do Something New’: ‘Better Call Saul’ Co-Creator

Vince Gilligan on His Final Episode as Writer-Director
After 15-plus years in the Heisenberg-verse, the showrunner says
he’s ready to leave it behind — he thinks for good

 ALAN SEPINWALL

AUGUST 8, 2022 10:21PM EDT

Greg Lewis/AMC/Sony Pictures Television
Popular on Rolling Stone
Vince Gilligan will be the first to tell you he’s a bad planner. It’s not just
that the co-creator of Better Call Saul missed his own show’s wrap party
because he and his partner Holly had already scheduled a birthday
getaway in Palm Springs for that night. It’s that throughout his tenure
with both Breaking Bad and Saul, he and his collaborators
(including Saul co-creator Peter Gould) were almost never able to map
out story beats very far ahead of time. Like the characters they wrote, they
constantly found themselves trapped in corners and had to figure some
explosive way out.
But at least there’s no more planning to worry about for this franchise.
Gilligan wrote and directed the penultimate Saul episode, which we
recapped here, and he says that next week’s series finale will very likely be
the conclusion to the entire fictional universe that started with Breaking
Bad.
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He spoke with Rolling Stone about how long it took to figure out the fate
of Kim Wexler, the ongoing challenge of reconciling the Saul plot with
what we knew from Breaking Bad, and why a show called Better Call
Saul wound up barely featuring Saul Goodman at all.
You and Peter always say that you can only see two inches in
front of your face as the show is being plotted. So at what point
and how did you figure out what was going to happen to Kim?
The same way we always did. We just work out two inches ahead of our
noses. I think it could have gone any which way, but there probably also
was an element of us being loath to kill off her character. There were so
many elements of this story that were preordained. You can’t kill off
Jimmy McGill in his own show, you can’t kill off any character whom we
know the fate of from Breaking Bad. But with Kim, the sky was the limit. I
guess it just didn’t feel right to kill her off. That was probably never on the
table, honestly. We certainly kept silently smiling while people stopped us
on the street and said, “You’re not gonna kill Kim, are you?” We let people
think that maybe we would, but none of us wanted to do it. But figuring
out where she wound up, it was in little baby steps, little fits and starts,
like every other bit of plotting we do.
 From left: Co-creator Peter Gould, Bob Odenkirk, and Vince Gilligan
on set in Season Three.
Michele K. Short/AMC/Sony Pictur
Was it more challenging in this final season than in seasons
past to reconcile the end of this show with what we know
from Breaking Bad?
I don’t think so. I think it was really, really challenging in the first season,
and in the early seasons. But I should say that it had been a couple of
years since I’d been in the writers room before this season. I remember in
the early days, when we were trying to figure out, “Jimmy McGill, where
does Saul Goodman come from? We can’t kill him off! He can’t lose an
eye!” There’s so many of these strictures that Breaking Bad put on this
character. But this season, man, not so much. I mean, it’s always tough.
But it seemed like it was harder in the early going. And luckily, we had a
whole lot of time to come up with this stuff. Peter Gould might give you a
different answer, but that’s how I look back on it.
If you could go back in time to the Breaking Bad years and ask
your younger self to change one thing to make your life easier
on this show, what would it be?
Oh man, you’re asking all the big tough ones. Let me think on that, and I
promise to have an answer by the end of this interview.
We’ve talked before about how you intended to get to Saul
Goodman by the end of Season One, and instead you found
yourselves liking Jimmy McGill. As it turns out, we got less than
a full episode combined of the real Saul, and you basically
skipped from Jimmy straight to Gene Takovic. How did you
decide you wanted to brush past that Saul era? 
It wasn’t so much about wanting. And you’re right. In the early days, we
talked about, “Yeah, he’ll be Jimmy for a while, but obviously, you can’t do
a bait-and-switch with the audience! You can’t sell them a bill of goods.
You’ve gotta give them Saul Goodman.” And damned if we didn’t wind up
doing it! We did not start out that way to be perverse or mischievous. I
think it finally dawned on us — but that thing about us only seeing two
inches in front of our noses, that really holds true when you’re breaking a
story like this. I think we finally came to realize that we know what Saul
Goodman looks like. You saw him on a great many episodes of Breaking
Bad, so we didn’t need to tell that story again, and we had all this really
interesting story. We were fascinated by Jimmy McGill, by what would
turn a guy like that, who’s basically a good guy, into a bad guy. And then
we wanted to see more of Gene Takovic in Omaha, so we kind of ran out
the clock without even meaning to, and then we realized, man, the first
thing that could go was Saul Goodman. And that’s the name of the show!
For fans who have seen Better Call Saul and haven’t watched Breaking
Bad if you want to get your Saul Goodman fix, I suggest you get on iTunes
or wherever, find the most expensive way possible, and buy the series in
the highest-quality resolution and stereophonic sound.
 Vince Gilligan directing Rhea Seehorn in Season Three.
Michele K.Short/AMC/Sony Picture
This is the last time you got to direct Rhea Seehorn in this role.
In a lot of this episode, you’re just letting the camera linger on
her face as she’s reacting to things, including that great scene
where she breaks down on the airport shuttle bus. What was it
like working with her one last time as this character?
It was great! I love Rhea. Rhea is just wonderful. And the camera loves her
as much as I do. So just getting a hold on those shots, on that actual
moving bus was a challenge. The two scenes when she’s driving in Florida,
and the one where Gene is driving in Omaha in the snow, those were done
on a soundstage in a non-moving vehicle with a plate that was burned in.
But the stuff on the bus was a real rental-car shuttle moving around on a
loop within sight of the Albuquerque airport. We just locked down four
cameras and let them roll, and I sat there trying to get as much out of her
eye line as I could. It was just a pleasure watching her. We did two takes.
We didn’t even need to. But I’m the anxious type, and I was gonna have
more than one take. I think we used the second one, but she was just as
brilliant as the first one. It’s just a pleasure watching her do her thing.
Why did you want to put Kim and Jesse Pinkman together for a
scene? 
I just love ’em both so much. It’s as simple as that. We try to tell these
stories as organically as possible, and we do. But a scene like that is, I hate
to admit it, just pleasurable to write, pleasurable to direct. It doesn’t really
move the plot forward. In strict, organic storytelling terms, it’s not
“necessary.” But it just was fun. And yeah, I love those two. I think we all
wanted — I can’t remember who came up with the idea — that we wanted
to see those two worlds collide. We couldn’t help ourselves.
These episodes take place after Breaking Bad and after El
Camino. As of now, they are the chronological end of this story.
Do you see this as it for this fictional universe, or could you
imagine revisiting it? 
I can definitely imagine revisiting it. Selfishly, I’d like to do so, to keep
this thing going. But without naming any names, I look around at some of
the worlds, the universes, the stories that I love, whether they’re on TV or
in the movies. And I think there’s a certain point, and it’s hard to define,
where you’ve done too much in the same universe. Just leave it alone. And
some universes are much bigger and more elastic. Ours is a very small
one, Albuquerque, New Mexico, versus some of these worlds and series of
movies and TV shows. The main thing I’m scared of is becoming too much
of a one-trick pony. Yes, I could do more with this universe. And maybe
someday I will, especially if I fail at everything that comes next. Then I’ll
come crawling back. But right now, whether there’s more room to grow or
not — and there probably is — I feel like it’s time to do something new.
Having basically just done these shows and El Camino for more
than 15 years, how does it feel to be coming to the end of that?
It’s funny. A lot of people have been asking me lately, and it hasn’t really
hit me. The end of Breaking Bad was very much a bright line, a clear
delineation. I remember being on the set on the last day, and everybody
was very emotional. That was a great many years ago. It’s been 15 years
now, and that was only year six or something like that, and that felt more
momentous, more monumental. It’s perhaps not a satisfying answer.
Perhaps it hasn’t hit me yet. I think it’s hit Peter, I think it’s hit the writers
and the actors. Maybe it’ll be a delayed reaction. I hope it won’t be quite
as intense and quite as public as what Kim goes through on that rental-car
shuttle. But maybe it’s like the reaction she has, after six years, crying for
Howard Hamlin and whatever else she’s crying for — her lost soul. I hope
I’m home alone if that happens.
OK, you promised to answer the time machine question before
we go. Is there anything you would change about Breaking
Bad just to make your life easier on Better Call Saul?
Yes. Well, you know, I’ll probably think of a good answer after we hang
up. But I think it’s telling that I can’t think of a good answer off the top of
my head, even having pondered it for a few minutes here. There are
certain moments where we thought, “Gee, it would be better if this
character lived” or “It would be better if we could kill this character.” But
none of it to our detriment, that I recall. It’s a challenge: Do you want the
Rubik’s Cube to be any easier, if you’re a Rubik’s Cube puzzle-type solver?
No, you don’t. Especially in hindsight once you’ve solved it. I don’t really
regret anything we did.
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Talib Kweli Sues Jezebel for ‘Emotional Distress’ After Site
Accurately Reported His Twitter Ban
Black Star rapper says he “went into a depression state of loss of
appetite, sleeplessness, edgy, anxiety, and discomfort around
certain women” after the article was published

 NANCY DILLON

AUGUST 10, 2022 3:23AM EDT

Robb Cohen/Invision/AP

Popular on Rolling Stone

Talib Kweli has filed a bizarre and utterly unrepentant lawsuit claiming
he suffered “emotional distress resulting in illness” after the feminist
website Jezebel published a story linking his 2020 Twitter suspension to
his reported harassment of a woman online.
The article, titled “Talib Kweli’s Harassment Campaign Shows How
Unprotected Black Women Are Online and Off,” reported that Kweli, 46,
was kicked off the social media site because he’d been obsessively
tweeting at a 24-year-old activist named Maya Moody for hours on end
“after a discussion about colorism in hip-hop went left.”
In his new lawsuit, filed Monday in New York Supreme Court, Kweli —
whose full name is Talib Kweli Greene — claims he “never harassed
anyone” and that the Jezebel article “used him as a guinea pig to clarify
how black men treat black women.”
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That assessment didn’t fly with Moody, who tweeted Tuesday that she’s
still facing harassment tied to the Twitter beef. “His fans are literally still
harassing me to this day,” Moody wrote. “He has continued to mention
me in interviews, live appearances, etc for over a year and a half. All
because I vaguely mentioned colorism and never said his or anyones
name.”
His fans are literally still harassing me to this day. He has continued
to mention me in interviews, live appearances, etc for over a year
and a half. All because I vaguely mentioned colorism and never said
his or anyones name. https://t.co/UMhO2yU9J8
— Maya Angelique👑 (@moneyymaya) August 9, 2022
Greene spends much of his lawsuit rehashing the defensive position he
took when he first responded to Moody. The focus of the Jezebel story,
meanwhile, was how his engagement with Moody evolved into something
that led Twitter to ban him.
“[Jezebel] published an article as if Mr. Greene’s statements were false,
and that he was some monster that didn’t like black women, when 500k
plus of his fans are black women, his ex-wife and child’s mother are black
women, and his employees are black women,” the lawsuit, which Greene
filed on his own behalf, states.
Greene claims the article turned “a minor conflict into a grand parade”
that cost him jobs and some $300,000 in income over the last two years.
The Black Star rapper says he “went into a depression state of loss of
appetite, sleeplessness, edgy, anxiety, and discomfort around certain
women.”
The lawsuit names Jezebel, its parent company G/O Media and the
article’s author as defendants.
“Jezebel’s article fairly reported on the controversy which led to the
permanent suspension of Talib Kweli’s Twitter account. This suit, filed
two years after the story was published, has no merit and the company
will be seeking our attorneys fees pursuant to the protections afforded to
the press to publish stories about matters of public interest like this one,”
a statement from G/O Media published by Jezebel on Tuesday reads.
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MAGA Lawmaker Who Tried to Overturn Election Says the

Feds Seized His Phone
Scott Perry was doing everything he could to reverse President
Biden’s win ahead of Jan. 6, 2020

 RYAN BORT

AUGUST 9, 2022 7:32PM EDT

Drew Angerer/Getty Images

Popular on Rolling Stone

Rep. Scott Perry (R-Pa.), one of Donald Trump’s most loyal supporters in
Congress, says federal authorities seized his phone on Tuesday, a day after
the FBI raided the former president’s Mar-a-Lago estate. Perry’s office
later reiterated to Rolling Stone that the FBI seized the congressman’s
phone Tuesday morning.
“This morning, while traveling with my family, three FBI agents visited
me and seized my cell phone,” Perry told Fox News. “They made no
attempt to contact my lawyer, who would have made arrangements for
them to have my phone if that was their wish. I’m outraged — though not
surprised — that the FBI under the direction of Merrick Garland’s DOJ,
would seize the phone of a sitting member of Congress. My phone
contains info about my legislative and political activities, and
personal/private discussions with my wife, family, constituents, and
friends. None of this is the government’s business.”
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It’s unclear why Perry’s phone was allegedly seized, or if it is in any way
related to the FBI’s raid of Mar-a-Lago on Monday, which reportedly
pertained to classified documents Trump allegedly took from the
White House.
The congressman from Pennsylvania has, however, been under intense
scrutiny for his alleged role in the plot to overturn the results of the 2020
election. Text messaged provided to the Jan. 6 committee by former
White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows reveal that Perry was trying to
get U.S. intelligence services to investigate the election. “From an Intel
friend: DNI needs to task NSA to immediately seize and begin looking for
international comms related to Dominion,” Perry wrote to Meadows on
Nov. 12, 2020, per CNN.
Politico reported in May that Meadows burned documents in his
office after meeting with Perry in the weeks following the election.
Texts also reveal that Perry pushed to install Trump lackey Jeffrey Clark
at the top of the Justice Department. Clark’s home was raided in June as
part of the DOJ’s investigating into the effort to overturn the election.
Perry was also a driving force behind the fake electors scheme Trump and
his allies hoped former Vice President Mike Pence would facilitate on Jan.
6, according to testimony to the committee.
Perry was subpoenaed by the Jan. 6 committee in May after refusing to
comply voluntarily. Committee Vice Chair Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.) said in a
public hearing in June that Perry sought a pardon from Trump in the
aftermath of the Capitol attack.
Rep. Perry and multiple Republicans sought presidential pardons for
the roles in trying to overturn the election according to
Cheney pic.twitter.com/VDPUnkajfd
— Acyn (@Acyn) June 10, 2022
Perry denied that he sought a pardon from Trump, calling the allegation
an “shameless” lie.
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One Year After ‘Liquor Store,’ Remi Wolf Talks Sobriety

In the latest installment of the Green Room, Remi Wolf talks about
how sobriety influenced her approach to music-making

 DELISA SHANNON

AUGUST 9, 2022 6:05PM EDT

Remi Wolf’s debut album Juno is an exhilarating introduction to the

California artist’s psychedelic mind. In the latest installment of the Green
Room — filmed ahead of her set at Lollapalooza in Chicago — she talks
about how sobriety influenced her approach to music-making.
Following the success of her project I’m Allergic To Dogs, which featured
the TikTok hit “Photo ID,” Remi Wolf entered rehab. “Liquor Store,” her
lead single from Juno, was the first song she recorded after returning to
Los Angeles to begin composing her debut project. She says the track was
carthatic, yet amazing. 
“Writing that bridge of that song — when the keys comes in and the
chords change up, I was crying,” she admits. “I felt very, very, very proud
of the song afterwards… just knowing it was my entire being I put into
that one.”
In a period of rebuilding herself, music serves as her therapy. But even in
a parallel universe, if she weren’t a singer, she’d be still be an artist.  
“I’d either be a chef or a painter; an artist of some kind. don’t think I’d be
able to do anything other than [make art]. Whatever this parallel universe
would be, I’d have to be the leader of it.”
For more of the conversation with Remi Wolf, watch the full video above.
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